merits of Lisp vs Python
lojicdotcomNOSPAM at gmail.com
Thu Mar 8 07:47:00 CET 2007
John Nagle wrote:
> Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Brian Adkins <lojicdotcomNOSPAM at gmail.com> writes:
>>> With prices of dedicated servers and virtual private servers so cheap,
>>> why would anyone get a hosting account without root access?
>> Because it turns you into a sysadmin instead of letting specialists
>> handle all the OS stuff so you can concentrate on your application.
> Exactly. I want to outsource these headaches to someone who's
> doing it for a thousand servers and has a standardized "just works"
> configuration that's Python-friendly. It's inefficient to work
> through all these issues for a single server. I have better things
> to do with my time.
> When starting out with this project, I'd made the assumption that
> Python was a stable, working, well-supported technology, like Perl
> hosting. It isn't.
> It's really amazing how stable Perl hosting is. I have a site,
> "downside.com", that's been running a Perl application since 2000,
> with essentially no attention since 2002. It's been migrated to new
> servers twice by the hosting provider, without my having had to change
> anything. Or even do anything. It's talking to a MySQL database,
> going out and retrieving files from the SEC, parsing complex documents,
> gettting a feed from NASDAQ, responding to queries, and doing
> quite a bit of work. When developing that, I had no serious problems
> with Perl.
This may sound like I'm baiting you, but it's a sincere question. If
your experience with Perl was so good, why did you decide to pursue
Python? Trouble free hosting and no problems in development - sounds
like it worked out well for you.
I do think that "hosting for the masses" is geared toward PHP, Perl,
I primarily develop in Ruby on Rails (I'm here 'cause the original
thread was posted to c.l.p and c.l.l) and I admit that trying that in a
shared hosting environment will probably lead to frustration, but once I
bit the bullet and got a VPS, and later a dedicated server, it was
smooth sailing, and the performance is *so* much better.
A bit of a learning curve getting Apache, Mongrel, MySQL, etc. up and
running (which was a fixed amount of time), then it just runs. In my
case, the productivity gains over my previous environment
(Java/Spring/Hibernate) was enough to justify a little pain for long
term gains. Switching from the VPS to the dedicated server with a
different company was easy because I already had the recipe to get a
> Python, on the other hand, is uphill all the way. Constant trouble
> with version issues, especially with C components called from Python.
> MySQLdb, M2Crypto, SSL - they all have platform/version
> incompatibility problems. I just spent three days making M2Crypto
> work on a new Linux server with a different Red Hat version.
> Neither Python's packaging tools nor the platform's packaging
> tools deal adequately with these issues.
Now I understand your original post a bit better. Sounds like you've had
a fair amount of frustration.
> The language is fine. It's those weakly-supported packages out
> there in the cold that are the problem. (I definitely agree with
> Guido that SWIG is a bad idea. I've been combing through the 24,000
> lines of C generated by SWIG for M2Crypto, figuring out the compile
> errors and what caused them. This is neither fun nor desirable.)
> I get the feeling that Python isn't used much for general web hosting
> any more. Only about two messages per month on this newsgroup mention
> a hosting-related issue.
It could be that the web folks are concentrated elsewhere - maybe a
TurboGears or Django forum? Are you just using Python with CGI, or with
a web framework? If the latter, I expect the framework folks could be
> One wonders how many people try and give up.
> John Nagle
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