arkanes at gmail.com
Fri Oct 12 22:21:48 CEST 2007
On 10/12/07, Dan Stromberg <dstromberglists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:42:28 +0200, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
> >>> So what? Otherwise you carry *always* the baggage of a public
> >>> property and a private attribute whether you need this or not. At
> >>> least for me it would be unnecessary in most cases.
> >> That "baggage" of carrying around "unneeded" methods is something the
> >> computer carries for you - IE, no big deal in 99.99% of all cases.
> > 1/ Accessing the value of a property is not free. Accessing a plain
> > attribute is much cheaper.
> Python's current performance characteristics have no bearing on what is
> good software engineering practice in general, and little bearing on what
> is good software engineering practice in python. Even from a
> strictly "what's good for python" perspective, if we limit our view of
> "good SE practice" to what python can express well right now (and IMO,
> python can express this fine, but you seem to be arguing it cannot),
> that needlessly limits python's evolution.
> I'm not omniscient, and neither is anyone else; when one initially codes a
> class, one doesn't know to what purposes it will need to be bent in the
> future; using accessor methods instead of exposed attributes is
> significantly more flexible for the future of your class.
This is simply not true in Python, and anyone who thinks it is hasn't
the slightest understanding of the consequences of dynamic vs static
lookup. The best practice (in C++, which Java inherited) of using
accessors is because changing a public attribute to a property broke
your interface, and all the clients of your code needed to be altered.
Later languages, like C#, introduced syntax support for properties,
which improved the situation such that clients didn't need to be
re-written, but only recompiled.
Python, however, uses truly dynamic attribute lookup and there is
*zero* cost to clients in a change from a public attribute to a
Writing accessors in a language that doesn't have the pressures that
introduced them is cargo cult programming, not Software Engineering.
>In fact, I may
> even go so far as to say that public attributes would be good to leave out
> of future languages that don't have a lot of backward compatibility
>From a reasonable point of view, Python doesn't have public
attributes, it just has things that syntactically look like them.
> It may not be traditional to use accessor methods in python. It may even
> be a more expensive operation. But neither of these make accessor methods
> a bad idea in the abstract.
Of course not, that's why Python supports properties. What's being
called the anti-pattern here is the creation-by-default of trivial
> > 2/ cluttering the class's namespace with useless names and the source
> > code with useless code is definitively not a good thing.
> Adding two clear and flexible methods and eliminating one clear and
> inflexible attribute is not namespace clutter. It's paydirt.
No, you kept the attribute and also added (at least) 2 methods.
> The performance expense in the vast majority of cases is tiny compared to
> the human expense of going back and fixing a design bug if anything
> significant has been hinging on your exposed implementation detail.
You still don't know what language you're writing in, do you? There is
zero additional cost associated with changing a public attribute to a
> Unless, that is, you don't think your code is important enough to be
> stretched to another, previously unforeseen purpose someday. If you're
> coding for a hobby, and enjoy coding for the sake of coding irrespective
> of how long it takes, rather than as a means to a valuable end, maybe
> needlessly exposing attributes is a Really Good Idea.
Ah, the old "my code is way more important than yours, so what I do is
right" approach. You hang out in the Java world a lot, don't you?
> My implementation may or may not be lacking (feel free to improve it - in
> fact, please do!), but that's irrelevant to the heart of the matter, which
> is "what you didn't think to plan for now most definitely can hurt you
Your implementation is, quite possibly, the worst possible
implementation of automatic properties in Python, both in terms of
readability and code size (and thus maintenance), as well as
performance and flexibility. The fact that you consider it, even for a
moment, to be better than writing accessors when and if you need them
(and not writing them otherwise) belies a dreadful lack of self
> If you have a program that needs to perform well, you're much better off
> coding your classes the best way you know how from a Software Engineering
> perspective, and using pysco or shedskin or pypy or similar to
> improve performance. If that's not enough, then you're better off
> profiling the program, and only after that should you recode the critical
> portions into something like pyrex or a C extension module, or -maybe-
> some python "tricks". I'd argue that trick-free C or C++ is normally
> better than python with tricks from a performance vantage -and- from an SE
You're not going to teach anyone on this list anything about
optimizing, I suspect.
> Little hackish tricks for performance's sake scattered throughout a
> program are very wasteful of something more precious than CPU time.
It's truly bizarre to hear someone refer to *not* writing code as a
"hackish trick". Especially when the alternative they prevent depends
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