Try this

Steve Holden steve at
Mon Sep 17 20:20:10 CEST 2007

mensanator at wrote:
> On Sep 17, 6:09 am, Steve Holden <st... at> wrote:
>> mensana... at wrote:
>>> On Sep 16, 9:27?pm, "Gabriel Genellina" <gagsl-... at>
>>> wrote:
>>>> En Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:58:09 -0300, mensana... at  
>> [...]
>>>> What about the rest of the world that don't speak
>>>> English or even worse, don't use the Latin alpabet?
>>> When the rest of the world creates the next
>>> generation of computers, THEY can chosse the
>>> defaults.
>> Right, because of course US companies have no desire to do business with
>> the rest of the world.
> I'm merely pointing out that it is the legacy of the history of
> information technology that is chauvinistic. That happens to be
> the way things are, I did not say that's the way they should be.
You imply that's the way they should be by placing pre-conditions on the 
  adoption of anything but ASCII as a default.

>> I'm not given to ad hominem attacks, but this remark really seems to
>> indicate that "chauvinistic cretin" might apply to you.
> _I_ didn't invent ASCII or EBCDIC. Why weren't the European
> and Chinese languages considered when these were developed
> 40-50 years ago? Because they were "chauvinistic cretins"?
> Is that what you think?
No. In those days (sixty years ago) less was possible, and achieving 
anything, however limited, represented progress. Certainly it would have 
been nice to see the adoption of more internationally-applicable 
standards, but the codes that were used in the early computes had their 
roots in even earlier information systems like teletypes and telex 
machines. It was partly a matter of adapting what already existed.

In these more enlightened times we can build systems for larger 
audiences by making them applicable to a wider range of languages and 
character sets. The standards and the technology already exist to do so.

So, "chauvinistic" because you appear to require the users of the 
non-ASCII parts of Unicode to contribute something before they get 
systems that suit their needs, when in fact the boot is on the other 
foot and it behooves the manufacturers to adapt to market needs if they 
want to serve those markets.

"Cretin" (in the sense of possessing sub-normal intelligence, as I do 
not know whether or not you have a thyroid deficiency) because you do 
not seem to be able to think of the needs of the larger community, and 
respond to argument with non-sequitur and evasion.

Plus, you annoyed me. I should have restrained myself. Sorry.

>> You'll be gald
>> to know you are unlikely to hear from me again.
> Why? Because I tend to act as a gadfly? To point out that
> the emperor is, in fact, naked? Because the professional
> programming community doesn't like their dirty laundry
> aired in public?
No, because everything you discuss appears to be discussed in the most 
simplistic terms, with limited perspective. So a discussion with you is 
about as satisfying as a discussion with a twelve year old child.

>> Your perception of the development of information technology is so
>> skewed you would be better off knowing nothing.
> My perception is skewed? Why then, does Unicode even exist?
To meet real needs which you appear to feel shouldn't be met until the 
people with those needs have built their own information technologies 
(or in your words "created the next generation of computers.").

Steve Holden        +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd 
Skype: holdenweb

Sorry, the dog ate my .sigline

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