Attack a sacred Python Cow

Jordan jordanrastrick at
Thu Jul 24 16:26:03 CEST 2008

> I don't really mind, what you think about my response.  Python will suffer
> from it as little as it will suffer from your complaints:  These things
> will not change, whatever any of us says about them.  So this discussion
> unlikely to produce any new insight, especially because this as been
> discussed over and over again in the past, without any effect on Python.  

You're right, of course. Because Python is in so many ways what I'm
looking for in a language, I transform it in my mind to my own,
personal ideal, close to the real existing language but with what I
consider to be the imperfections removed.

I'm not suggesting getting rid of explicit self, even in "Python
4000." Not because of the advantages it gives, which are some but
don't outweigh the net loss in my ledger. It just wouldn't be
Pythonic. I know its not a Pythonic thing to want. Thats my problem -
because I have a largely Pythonic approach in some areas, it upsets me
when there's a mismatch. So lets say I'm -1 for introducing it into a
language and +0 for keeping it in Python now that its entrenched.

If a lot of users keep bringing up something like this, well my
attitude used to be the same as yours - "learn to love Python for what
it is." Maybe

> Let's just drop this, and if you want to complain next time, just complain
> about something, that is really worth being complained about, like for
> instance old and outdated modules in the standard library, or real
> showstoppers in Python (e.g. the GIL).

Its worth complaining about because I'm not just someone who has
stumbled across Python after years of Java and PHP, and hasn't really
grokked it, and has jumped on the net at once to start a flamewar. I'm
someone who loves Python, uses it in preference to other languages,
and have now returned to it after a bit of a break and its finally hit
me over the head like a tonne of bricks "Hey, I can see exactly what
all those internet trolls were talking about. This *is* a really
annoying and silly state of affairs."

I was trying not to change explicit self, or even != (which has a much
better case.) I was trying to ask the community to reconsider a
premise that the language is built around. Explicit is actually kinda
annoying a lot of the time, viz., java. This is about social and
philosophical adjustments, not technical ones.

In reality? I'll just keep writing Python (hopefully enough so that
explicit self become burned into muscle memory), and use other
languages when necessary (no more C than I have to, looking forward to
dabbling in Erlang soon, and one day overcoming the parentheses phobia
enough to really tackle Lisp properly). When I'm old enough and wise
enough, and have the time, energy and inclination, maybe I'll sit down
and put a proper effort into designing and implementing a new language
that bests suits my own particular style and needs. Just maybe it'll
be good enough that smart people will rally to defend its design
principles from people attacking them on the internet :-)

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