pep 8 constants

Tim Chase python.list at
Tue Jun 30 18:39:29 CEST 2009

> I've tried it least two dozen editors and they all fail 
> miserably because they're focused on keyboard use (but 
> understandable)
> I've tried a whole bunch, like I said at least a dozen. They
> all fail for first reasons such as inability to access all
> functionality through keystrokes (easiest interface method
> from speech recognition)

I'm not sure I follow which you kvetch that
they're too focused on keyboard use, but then that you can't
access all functionality through the keyboard.

[warning, blatant vim fanaticism follows]

I use vim and can't remember the last time I used the mouse
with it (save for occasionally lazily scrolling with the
mouse-wheel, but you can scroll with the keyboard too), so
it meets your "must be fully accessible through the
keyboard" constraint.  It also has single keystroke commands
for indenting/exdenting the current line as you mention:

   > I know this is also counter to the Python way but having
   > something marking and outdent would be really useful so
   > that a vocal driven command to indent or outdent a block
   > would be practical.

which can be done in insert-mode with control+D, control+T,
and if you want to clear all indentation (all the way back
to the first column), you can use "0" followed by control+D.
Vim also allows for fairly detailed control over
auto-indentation settings so you can match them to your
preferences.  I suspect Emacs may be configurable to offer
similar functionality but I'd have to defer to the emacsen
on the list.

That said, I'll be the first to admit that the vi/vim
learning curve is more like a brick wall than a curve.
However, I find the efficiency gains abundantly than repaid
the time I invested to learn it well.

>> Dasher[1]
> I've tried it, it's quite promising but my hands term are 
> sufficiently that I can't target accurately.

Last I tried it, it scaled the target sizes based on
probability.  You might also try unconventional pointing
devices for better precision.  I've seen web-cam
eye-tracking tools which might make it a bit easier.  Or try
a tablet input (where the motion corresponds linearly, as
opposed to accelerated mouse motion).  Such input options
are listed on the Dasher website, at least for those they

> Oh, another failure point. Have you ever tried to selected 
> beach and by voice. I mean I should say have you ever tried to
> select a region by voice.

yes, not a pleasant experience.  Again, vim's modal
interface allows for using text-objects so you can issue
short-hand commands like


to "[c]hange the contents [i]nside the double-quotes I'm
currently on/withing".  The operator+motion and
operator+textobject command syntax obviates a lot selection.
While vim does offer a "visual" mode (akin to selection in
other editors), I use it much less because of the power
provided by the operator+[motion/textobject].

> maybe we should have a conversation off list about different
> editors if you don't mind. I'm certainly open to alternatives
> but, I do have fairly high standards and one of them is that
> ^X^S doesn't crash the editor. :-) I have been using Emacs for
> too many years and it is such a reflex.

as you're an emacs user, my vim suggestions may sound like
heresy. ;-)  But I suspect a skilled emacs user (or perhaps
asking on an emacs-users list) could mimic much of the vim
functionality.  I just can't be of much assistance there.

You're welcome to move it's kinda drifted from 
python to general accessibility issues.  CC'ing c.p.l for this 
one in case any emacsen care to chime in on their suggested tweaks.


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