pep 8 constants

Eric S. Johansson esj at
Mon Jun 29 11:49:04 EDT 2009

alex23 wrote:
> "Eric S. Johansson" <e... at> wrote:
>> no, I know the value if convention when editors can't tell you anything about
>> the name in question.  I would like to see more support for disabled programmers
>> like myself and the thousands of programmers injured every year and forced to
>> leave the field.  seriously, there is no money in disability access especially
>> for programmers.
> Well, if we can't use conventions like uppercasing, camelcasing and
> underscoring, what are you recommending we do instead?

help build a smart editing environment please.
> You seem to be asking us to change our behaviour to benefit only
> others, but without offering any guidance on to how that is possible.
> More importantly, shouldn't these modifications to common conventions
> be coming _from_ the community of disabled programmers? I have a hard
> time ensuring that I've gotten accurate requirements from co-workers
> with whom I can actually see and speak, trying to determine how I
> could write my code with accessibility in mind without any established
> means of gauging success just seems impossible.

Extremely valid point. The behavior I'm asking you to change is to consider the
impact choices you make have on people with disabilities. I can only advocate
for disabled programmer since I am one. Have been so for over 15 years. Have
tried to maintain my position as architectural expert only to receive from
venture capitalists and the likes "what good are you, you can't know enough to
design our systems because you can't code" (yes, real quote). This is not always
the case but enough that it really hurts my economics as well as the economics
of other disabled programmers.

Back in early 2000, I ran a series of workshops on the very issue of programming
by voice. Back then we recognized the necessity for very smart editing
environments which can tell us enough about what each symbol means so that we
can direct the appropriate transformations from a higher-level grammar. I've
introduce concepts such as command disambiguation through reduction of scope.
Other people have added very good ideas with regards to usability and user
interfaces for speech driven environment. Unfortunately, they all are gluons to
an editor and they don't really integrate well because the editor isn't smart

Heck, have you ever noticed how most Python smart editors can't even indent
properly according to local contexts. Emacs is the only one and even that one
sometimes fails

I can give you guidance as to what needs to be done. Other people can give
guidance but I'm shooting for what may seem unachievable. Work with me a while
and I will guide you as to how it's achievable. Maybe not by you but by someone
we can find. I have lived way too many years with circus tricks. I don't want to
end my life realizing I wasted my time in IT and regretting that I didn't take
up the offer by mass rehab to go in restaurant or hotel management.

one thing you can do to get a feel for out life is to get a copy of Naturally
Speaking standard (100$ staples) and remove/cover keyboard.  write email etc at
first (10h) then try to write pep8 code.  note to anyone who tries this,  I'll
support you in getting DNS running and help figure out any problems.  only cost
is if I tell you to do something like get a new mic, *do it*.

I've lived this works and probably have put more deep thought and 8kloc into it
because I do not accept circures tricks as a way of life.  I want it to work
right and I know how to do it.  I just don't have the hands and hte money to pay
me to do it.

>> and forgive me if this comes off sounding like a jerk but if
>> the collective you don't give a sh** about your fellow programmers, who will?
> This isn't intended to be callous, as I feel that the collective
> doesn't care as a whole about _any_ programmers, but isn't the answer
> the very same disabled programmers for whom accessibility is an issue?
> Programming tends to be needs driven (which, admittedly, can be simply
> "to pay the bills"), and those who have a need tend to be better at
> working out how to address it.

yup  how long will i be before you become disablesd?  maybe not as badly as I am
but you should start feeling some hand problems in your later 40's to early 50's
and it goes down hill from there.  self preservation/interest comes to mind as a
possible motive for action.  I thought 15 years would be enough for somebody
else to push the isssue but no.  if it is going to be, it has to be me.
> One possibility may be to approach a group for whom accessibility is
> already a consideration, such as the Gnome Accessibility Project:

not right focus for this project.  tis one needs **deep** python knowledge (gvr
level) and embedding it into an editor.  heck, maybe we need a python
interpreter in the editor to resolve some of the symbol stuff  if we can get
useful data  from incomplete code.

and I'll leave you an editor feature that may be usefull for all

symbol not defined: choose from list or create new.
I'll explain later.

thanks for you thoughtful reply.

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