Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!

[Robert]

On 2010-12-30 22:28:39 -0500, rantingrick said:

>  On Dec 30, 8:41 pm, Robert <sigz... at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-12-30 19:46:24 -0500, rantingrick said:
>> Just to clarify...I like Python. I am learning it at the moment.
> 
> Glad to have you aboard Robert!

Thanks!

> 
>>> 3. What is your opinion of Tkinter as to it's usefulness within the
>>> stdlib?
>> 
>> No, I really don't see the need for it to be in the stdlib but that
>> isn't my call.
> 
> But it is your call Robert. Anyone who writes Python code --whether
> they be a beginner with no prior programming experience or a fire
> breathing Python Guru-- has a right to inject their opinion into th
> community. We really need input from first time users as they carry
> the very perspective that we have completely lost!

I speak up.  :-)

> 
>>> 5. Should Python even have a GUI in the stdlib?
>> 
>> I would say "no" but that is my opinion only and it doesn't matter.
>> Python's domain isn't GUI programming so having it readily available on
>> the sidelines would be fine for me.
> 
> I agree that Python's domain is not "specifically" GUI programming
> however to understand why Tkinter and IDLE exists you need to
> understand what Guido's dream was in the beginning. GvR wanted to
> bring Programming to everyone (just one of his many heroic goals!). He
> believed (i think) that GUI programming is very important , and that
> was 20 years ago!!. So he included Tkinter mainly so new Python
> programmers could hack away at GUI's with little or no effort. He also
> created a wonderful IDE for beginners called IDLE. His idea was
> perfect, however his faith in TclTk was flawed and so we find
> ourselves in the current situation we have today. With the decay of
> Tkinter the dream has faded. However we can revive this dream and
> truly bring Python into the 21st century!

I don't think Tkinter was in there for "large" programming. Tkinter is 
crufty and probably should be moved out. For whipping up quick gui 
things to scratch an itch it is good.

I lurk more on the Tcl side of things. When the mention of "separating" 
Tcl and Tk development, I fall on the side of separating them. Tcl, 
like Python should stand on its own. Widget frameworks are extras to 
me. One way the Tcl community has "stagnated" has been its insistence 
on Tk. There was a wxTcl project...it died. That would have been good 
for the Tcl community. Luckily there is a GTk framework (Gnocl) that is 
really good. But it still doesn't get the props that it deserves. The 
second way the Tcl community irks me is the "not invented here" 
attitude. I like the syntax of Tcl and I like the community. They are 
some good folks. Try asking "I want to build a Nagios clone in Tcl" 
type question and invariably you get "Why? There is already Nagios?". 
That stems from the "glue" language roots I think but to me that is the 
wrong attitude. You want people to take a look at a language (any 
language), you build stuff with it that people want to use. Ruby would 
not be as big as it is if Rails hadn't come along.

Nuff of that...  ;-)

> 
> 
>>> 6. If Python should have a GUI, then what traits would serve our
>>> community best?
>> 
>> This is a good one.
>> 
>> It should be:
>> 
>> - cross platform
>> - Pythonic
>> - as "native" as possible
>> 
>> Cross platform and native are hard. Just look at all the work with
>> PyQt/PySide and wxPython. It took them years to get where they are.
> 
> Hmm, wxPython is starting to look like the answer to all our problems.
> WxPython already has an IDE so there is no need to rewrite IDLE
> completely. What do we have to loose by integrating wx into the
> stdlib, really?

wxPython is really good. The downside is that is shows (or did show) 
its C++ roots.

Nokia is making a run with PySide (their version of the PyQt framework) 
and since it has a company behind it might go pretty far. Qt can be 
used for a lot of problem domains.

Anyway, I wasn't meaning to be rough with you. Just trying to figure 
out where you were coming from. I am acquianted with Kevin Walzer and 
he is a good guy.

-- 
Robert