Modifying Class Object

Steve Holden steve at
Thu Feb 11 16:59:41 CET 2010

Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
> * Steve Holden:
>> In this particular part of the thread I am attempting, unsuccessfully,
>> to convince you that a change in *your* behavior would lead to less
>> hostility directed towards the way you present your ideas.
>> You apparently feel it is quite acceptable to tell people to "learn to
>> read",
> I have not used that expression.
> However I have suggest and emphasized that it might help to *read*
> whatever one quotes, when the quoted material (such as one paragraph)
> has not been read.
> Telling someone to "learn to read" is a Steve Holden'sk way to imply
> that the person is an ignoramus who hasn't bothered to learn to read.
> Telling a person to read something that's obviously not been read is
> quite another matter. So, you are misrepresenting  --  again  --  and in
> a quite revealing way, sorry.
Pardon me? You used it on December 16 in a response to Mensanator in
message <hgbri8$e17$1 at>

M :> How about devoting a section on downloading the source files
M :> and compiling it on a Mac?

AS:> Learn to read.

AS:> At the top of every second page it tells you that this is an
AS:> introduction based on Windows.

I am sure you will have some glib response as to why this wasn't rude at
all. Allow me to correct you - it was, and rudeness is not welcomed on
comp.lang.python. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen (why, I have even
been known to be rude myself - we are none of us perfect, after all).

I have already given ample evidence that when I am wrong I will admit
it. You, contrariwise, maintain that you will admit when you are wrong
(I believe 40% of the time was the figure you used) but I fail to
remember any single incident when you made such an admission.

>> and calling their assertions "bullshit",
> Yes, in this group, but only for personal attacks.
> Such as yours.
> I think I've shown extreme restraint in the face of bullying from you
> and some followers, and calling the insinuations bullshit is quite mild.

I don't have "followers". Assertions I make are my own, and stand alone
without the need of support. Calling them "bullshit" is indeed quite
mild, but doesn't invalidate them. You can only do that by engaging, but
instead you hysterically shout "ad hominem" whenever anyone makes a
personal remark.
>> but when we try to point
>> out aspects of your behavior that are either undesirable or unacceptable
>> we are indulging in "ad hominem attacks".
> That is an untrue and extremely misleading description of what you've
> been doing.
I'll let that be judged on the record. You have consistently refused to
accept, despite assertions from several individuals (presumably those
you choose to characterize as my "followers", thereby allowing you to
write them off without seriously considering what they say - at least
that is how it looks from the outside) that criticism of your behavior
is not, in fact, an ad hominem attack but an attempt to engage you in
debate and have you modify that behavior.

So, for the final time: remarks about personal characteristics only
constitute ad hominem attacks ONLY when they are made for the purpose of
invalidating other (typically, in this group, technical) arguments.

If we met in person at a conference (God help us both) and you sat in an
open space session picking your nose, would you deem it an "ad hominem
attack" if I told you to stop? It sounds like it, even though I would
tell you to stop not so that others would respect your technical
arguments any less, but because by departing from the accepted standards
of behavior you would offend others.
>> In your terms, your accusing me of bullying behavior is an ad hominem
>> attack on me, so I won't bother to respond further.
> You're complaining about the person you're hitting saying clearly what
> you did.
> If some truthful words about bullying can get you straight I'm for it.
> Even if it means getting down to your level (and yes, I did).
Nope, I'm not complaining at all. That's your tactic: "look, Steve is
hitting me". You are entitled to write what you like on this newsgroup,
but you have to accept that it will have consequences. I am simply
pointing out that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
PyCon is coming! Atlanta, Feb 2010
Holden Web LLC       

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