Modifying Class Object

Stephen Hansen apt.shansen at
Sat Feb 13 10:30:37 CET 2010

On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:23 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick at> wrote:
[blah, blah, blah]

First of all, we all know how D Aprano has such an unfettered ego
> problem.

[blah, blah, blah]

And as always the roaches start
> coming out of the woodwork in a most "pathetic puppy dog" way. What
> would you puppets do if there were no one to pull your strings?

[blah, blah, blah] (I'd claim an ad hominem attack, but that's just boring
these days)

> But the most nortoriuos behavior of all belongs to none other that the
> PSF chairman himself! Yes "Steve Holden", you should be ashamed of
> yourself!

[blah, BLAH, blah]

> Your attacks have been more amd more destructive over the
> past year or so. Even if your behavoir could "somehow" be justified
> how can someone in your position lead the PSF and act as such an
> infintile way?

[blah, blah, BLAH, blah]

> I am very ashamed of you Steve and you really owe Alf
> (and the community at large) an apology although i doubt it will
> happen because then your own people will turn against you.




Grow up.

I've deliberately exited the real topic of this thread, because its clearly
degenerated to complete nonsense; while in this thread Alf argues for a
certain dogmatic theoretical "Standard" terminology that clearly many people
disagree with (supporting the 'standard' continually with a certain
language's reference manual, which by definition makes it not-standard, or
you wouldn't need to quote a certain language0, and in another he argues for
another position-- and and speaks in support of standard and understood
terminology, the two positions together are laughable nonsense. To this he
will, of course, again declare that I am simply lying.  This very
declaration clearly proves his own absurdity: you can argue in a circle for
infinity, but when you start spouting nonsense about how those opposing you
are mere liars-- ESPECIALLY-- when you have been arguing about how you have
been the terrible victim of ad hominem attacks-- your own hypocrisy makes
your words meaningless.

I've been tempted to re-enter the actual argument, its a hard one to avoid
with such clear misunderstandings held so strongly. But, I won't. Except for
my editorials here. Because I am weak. Ahem, the point is-- my chief
antagonist in the discussion has publicly stated I am a liar. This is
provably a lie unto itself, and it damns the speaker absolutely. I have
expressed my position, my thoughts, and my opinion and interpretation of my
opponents position -- and his response is, "You are a liar." or, "That is a
lie". That's a lie, a personal attack, all the while declaring his own
victimhood. You can say, "You're mistaken", but to say, "You are a liar." is
something else entirely. The chief victim of c.p.l. becomes the abuser.

Now, why am I entering this thread again? Not to discuss the issue at hand.
There's clearly no point. Alf has chosen to define language in his own way,
ignoring any weight that established industry weight might apply to such
terms. Okay. When you enter an argument of words, some people will refuse to
acknowledge their own perception of the world isn't reality. It happens.
There's no point in going forward after a certain point.

But now, this absurdity?

You are ashamed of Steve Holden for his behavior? You think he owes the
community at large an apology?

I don't mean to rise up in defense of Holden, as I'm sure he can defend
himself should he feel the need. I took offense at Alf choosing to claim the
right of defending me earlier, so I can't be a hypocrite in that.

But, really. If -this- is your position? Grow up. Seriously.

Steve Holden owes this community nothing. That which he has given should be
welcomed and he should be thanked for it. He hasn't flamed anyone; he hasn't
attacked anyone-- despite Alf's nonsense claims, though on occasion his
responses are snarky (with reason)-- he hasn't /taken/ anything from this
community. He's done far more then many in assisting people who are trying
to learn Python and embrace its community.

Frankly, how dare you claim to demand an apology for this community.

If I was to be ashamed of anyone's participation in the community, it would
be you over him. I'm not even ashamed of Alf. I don't agree with him, I
think he's got a stubborn egocentric view of terminology and semantics which
is ultimately harmful, I think he has a severe persecution complex, but
despite this-- I've seen him respond to several threads recently, helpfully,
and I don't even disagree with most of those responses.

You're just ... blabbering. Adding arbitrary, unsupported, and unsupportable
fuel to the fire to rant at some position-- how /mean/ this community is and
how /terrible/ we behave-- all without any basis at all. Except you claim
it. You document it. Gee, we're mean, mean, unhelpful people.

And no, I'm not one of "his people" who will turn on him for admitting he is
satan; if Steve Holden and I have ever been in a thread in the past -- it
was us both answering some newbie, or commenting on a topic, all
independently-- and I'm not even sure I was ever aware of it having
happened. I remember no particular conversation, ever, between him and I.

This is one of the most generally supportive technical communities I've ever
seen, even when faced with clear ignorance and people even not taking the
most basic due diligence before asking others to answer their questions. It
goes back almost a decade to when I posted more then one /really/ stupid
question to this group on some initial assumptions and thoughts-- on most
groups? Such things would be ridiculed. Here, people ask questions when the
OP's position isn't clear or if it seems they may be looking at the problem
wrong. They go out of their way to understand the use-case and details of
the question and provide solutions. They -work- to be helpful, and
supportive, with some demands-- but reasonable demands.

And you're all ashamed of our "bad behaviors".

That makes me want to say, "Well, f--- you too".

But I won't. I'll just hope you grow up and get over it and learn that hey,
communities? They are never seamless, or easy, and conflict is a part of
life. Some have very hard standards for acceptance, some try to embrace but
there's always going to be issues.

This is one of the good ones.

Deal with it.

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