Modifying Class Object

Alf P. Steinbach alfps at
Sun Feb 14 03:10:49 CET 2010

* Steve Holden:
> Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>> * Steve Holden:
>>> Alf P. Steinbach wrote:
>>>> * Michael Sparks:
>>>> [Due to the appearance of reasoned discussion (it's not practical to
>>>> read it all!)
>>> [...]
>>>>> Therefore to say "in reality the implementation will be passing a
>>>>> reference or pointer" is invalid. There is after all at least one
>>>>> implementation that does not rely on such machine oriented language
>>>>> details.
>>>> I'm sorry, but see above: in itself it's just yet another a fallacy.
>>>> And as an argument in a debate with me it's misrepresenting.
>>> I see we are still all out of step with you.
>> Why did you snip the short argument?
> Because it's irrelevant and fallacious.
>>> If it's a fallacy then I'd
>>> like to see a reasoned logical explanation of its fallaciousness.
>> Oh, you snipped it so that you didn't have to present it to readers.
>> That's dishonest, Steve Holden.
>> Requoting:
>> <quote>
>>> Now let's move to the implementation aspects.
>>> Python as a language is implemented in many languages. One of these
>>> is C. There are compilers to C (pypy), C++ (shedskin), for the JVM
>>> (Jython) and .net (Ironpython).
>>> There is also an executable operation semantics for python,
>>> which can be found here:
>>> This set of operational semantics is written in Haskell.
>>> Haskell is a strictly pure, lazily evaluated language. It
>>> therefore has no pointers or references, just values and names.
>>> The implementation therefore cannot be in terms of references
>>> and pointers.
>> At this point consider whether it's possible to implement Pascal in
>> Haskell.
>> If it is possible, then you have a problem wrt. drawing conclusions
>> about pointers in Pascal, uh oh, they apparently can't exist.
>> But if it is not possible to implement Pascal in Haskell, then Haskell
>> must be some etremely limited special-purpose language, not Turing
>> complete  --  is that acceptable to you?
>> <quote>
> This, if it says anything at all, appears to say that any
> Turing-complete language has pointers in it, which is an absurdity.
>>> As far as I can see, if someone says "implementing Python implies the
>>> use of pointers" as you appear to be doing, then Michael's argument
>>> neatly demolishes that argument by providing a counter-example: there is
>>> an implementation of Python that does not use pointers.
>> That's meaningless.
>> But then so is maintaining that Python doesn't have references.
>> And so is your argument applied to Pascal, just to mention that again.
> *You* brought Pascal into this, not me.

Of course. And so? Do you think that the/your argument applies to Pascal?

Just for your information, it does not work for Pascal.

Or any language. It is a fallacy. It does not say anything about Python, or 
Pascal, or any language.

>>> You, however, dismiss this as a fallacy, and suggests it somehow
>>> misrepresents you. And yet you wonder why people call your behavior (not
>>> you) paranoid.
>> On top of the multiple fallacies, dubious snipping of arguments,
>> statements that such arguments have not been presented (just after
>> snipping them), and general misleading insinuations and
>> misrepresentation, ad yet another bit of personal attack.
>> Do you understand what that may say to readers about you, Steve Holden?
> I'm happy to let readers draw their own conclusions about us both.

I guess you are. For it is invariably so that most readers recall by 
association, and a flood of flaming does yield an impression. As a technical 
argument it's a fallacy, but do you care? No.

>> Apparently it's all to defend an indefensible, idiotic position. But I
>> think you're doing it at least partially for the fun of harassing someone.
> Not at all. You have accused me of bullying behavior, but  in truth you
> are the bully, and we know what happens when you give in to bullies,
> don't we?

After an uncountable number of flames of my person, many from you, I'm the 
bullied, or victim, so to speak; as such I'm not the bully.

>>> [...]
>>>>> I sincerely hope that my reply does not offend or inflame you, since
>>>>> that is not the intent. I do hope it educates you and puts
>>>>> into context the responses you have gained from others.
>>>>> After all, one simply shouting in a corner saying "YOU'RE ALL
>>>>> WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. I'M RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT", when one does not to
>>>>> understand what one is talking about does not tend to engender warm
>>>>> fluffy feelings or sentiments of authority towards such an
>>>>> individual. Be it me, you, or anyone else.
>>>>> At the moment, you appear to me to be engaging in such a behaviour.
>>>>> Now you don't know from Jack and probably don't care about  my
>>>>> viewpoint, but I would really appreciate it if you would try not to
>>>>> be inflammatory in your response to this. (Since you do appear to
>>>>> also have a need to have the last word)
>>>>> Hoping this was useful on some level,
>>>> Yes.
>>>> I elected to respond to just /one/ of the many arguments you
>>>> presented.
>>>> The other arguments, about why there are no references in Python,
>>>> shared, however, the basic property of being logical fallacies
>>>> packaged in kilometers of rambling text.
>>> And you can say this without, by your own admission, even reading it.
>> No, you can not quote any place I have said that I haven't read his
>> article. I did read most of it. So you are yet again within the span of
>> one posted article presenting untrue information that you know is not true.
> I repeat the quote from you which you can read at the top of this post:
>>>> [Due to the appearance of reasoned discussion (it's not practical to
>>>> read it all!)
>>> [...]
> So now you say you read "most" of it.

I haven't said anything contradictory about that. If I had then you'd have 
quoted it. You don't quote anything, so you're out on your usual 
insinuate-things argumentation technique.

> Even this statement is an
> admission that there are parts you did not, and yet somehow *I* am the
> liar? We are moving from the bizarre to the delusional here.

I'm sorry that I had to point out your relating untrue information that you knew 
at the time was untrue.

That also applies to your snipping of the argument about Haskell, and subsequent 
asking for such arguments as if they hadn't been given  --  and snipped.

The poster explained at the start that he had some technically immaterial stuff 
at the end of his article. I don't know whether I reached that. But anyway, the 
article was just a series of fallacies like the one thinking an implementation 
in Haskell could prove anything about the language so implemented, all wrapped 
up in kilometers of rambling text.

Your attack of "bizarre" and "delusion" are the usual from Steve Holden.

You are injecting noise to bury an argument that you didn't like. You tried 
first snipping it from your response. Now you're trying the noise angle again.

Cheers & hth.,

- Alf

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