Community (A Modest Proposal)

[Cameron Simpson]

On 12Jun2010 20:09, rantingrick <rantingrick at gmail.com> wrote:
| I think the Python community is broken. I think we don't really "have"
| a community. It's more like a handful of negitive people at the top
| and every one else is chopped liver.

Hmm. I think this is an overreaction. I must be chopped liver myself,
though I've rarely felt outright rejected here.

Of course, me not being part of the core" and all, everything below is
merely my opinion.

| Just today i saw another chance to contribute code to Python's stdlib,
| but then that nagging feeling of "Whats the use, these people are just
| going to discredit you and never accept code from you just because
| they hate you". Sadly though the only damage is done to Python.

The stdlib isn't where code should start.

Code should start on your machine, probably then post to
http://pypi.python.org/pypi when it's usable (and, in your opinion at
least, _useful_) if you want others to have easy access.

Stuff for the stdlib needs to serve a widely felt need, solve the
problem in a well defined way and be both clean in interface and
practially bugfree. This is because _everyone_ who uses python gets a
copy of the stdlib and should be able to rely on it totally for what
facilities it does provide.

| For those who are not aware my very first post to c.l.p (and Usenet)
| was about 1.5 years ago. At that time i saw a void that Python could
| fill nicely as a simple scripting language for an very quickly
| advancing 3D modeling application (Google SketchUp). (You can search
| the archives for a thread called..."Help, Google SketchUp needs a
| Python API" if you are interested.)

A direct link to the start of thread would have been nice... Anyway,
I've just searched it out and read chunk of it.

Your enthusiasm is encouraging, but you _do_ start by bagging Ruby and
saying nobody can find it easy to use. This is clearly false given how
many people like it so much - it certainly appears very succinct to my
eye from the examples I've seen, and it _will_ appeal strong to people
of a mathematical bent and likely fans of functional languages.

Then as the thread progresses you rant somewhat about how nobdy is
jumping in to join your quest to bring Python to SketchUp, and complain
that nobody is prepared to advocate for python in another arena.

You're doing this wrong:

  - you need to produce a prototyple yourself first, however small

  - you need to not bag out Ruby, especially if you're going to
    go and repeat the exercise in the existing Ruby-centric list

  - you need to _not_ expect help on your pet project here in python-list;
    the place you're going to find SketchUp enthusiasts is the SketchUp list,
    not here; go and ask "can someone help me make a Python API paralleling
    the Ruby API" _there_!


| So i my first thought was to find out if anyone was interested in
| starting this project up. So i posted my ideas and to my complete and
| utter surprise i was lynched by the Python community as a heretic...."
| How dare you ask other people to help do what you should be doing
| yourself "... well that was the "Sunday school" version of the
| responses i received. I was discredited and mobbed for no apparent
| reason except that i had the balls to ask the question in the first
| place. I was only looking to get feedback, but the endless hoards
| insisted that "they" new my intentions better than *I*.

I've read some of these responses. You're misreading things, or coming
with unrealistic expectations.

You did get a "put up of shut up" response; this was blunt, but you
really do need to bring stuff to the party yourself. There are many many
people who think "something should be done" for a variety of somethings.
But for your pet "something" you must provide a start of your own; my
incomplete scan of the thread suggests that _here_, in c.l.p/python-list,
you are the sole SketchUp scripting enthusiast.
So you should be looking for supporters there, not here.

| Why was the reaction so negative? Well i will admit some fault in the
| fact that i trashed Ruby pretty bad. I felt everything i said was true
| IMO then as is now (mostly). People should have a right to opinions.
| However since i was such an "unknown" and you could say a "newbie",
| was this reaction warranted? I think not, and it speaks volumes to the
| negative attitudes within this community.

No, it speaks volumes to your expectations. c.l.p is, in my experience,
an _extremely_ civil group. Occasionally blunt, but almost invariably
willing to listen to reason and examples, and to critique examples.
In this list there is a very strong ethic (for want of a word) for use
cases as justification for "need".

So in this instance I would expect you to start in the SketchUp group
and find someone to help you write an API, even as a layer that calls
the Ruby API.

In c.l.p, I would think it reasonable to come here and say
"I have this code [href to code, or inline small snippet reproducing the
issue" and I can't find enough Python expertise in the SketchUp list to
solve this problem".

It is _not_ reasonable to expect non-SketchUp users to make you an API
or to go to the SketchUp list to support you.

Python advocacy seems to be by example, not cheerleading.

| This brings me to a new question. How many really exceptional Python
| programmers have been left out OR pushed out because of the extreme
| narcissism of the "core" python group. And when i say "core" i am
| speaking of the handful of people who hang out here discrediting and
| mobbing anybody they see as a threat to their superiority. They clutch
| to power like a hated dictator because that is all they have left.
| 
| You people need to get a life, drop your narcissistic attitudes and be
| more helpful, friendly, and welcoming to the wider world. This
| community is not a community, its a "Cosa Nostra". Your predator like
| behaviors are bleeding the spirit of Python's community. This
| community does not belong to you or me or even GvR, we all share an
| equal piece. And no matter how much, or little, each of use
| contribute, we all share an equally divided peice.

Bah.

Your supposed "community" is a discussion place for people with Python
interest. A co-operative anarchy, like a lot of things. It is not a
club or other formal grouping.

Aside from the core devs of the language implementors and the real
maintainer of the various library packages, everyone else is here to
have on-topic, usually technical, discussions about python. _Nobody_
is under an obligation to assist. Complaining because others don't share
your particular itch _will_ get you negative responses.

| I have spoken with "other" Python programmers (far more advanced than
| myself) who echo this sentiment. However unlike me they cannot afford
| to sacrifice their image to this group, EVEN if the group is at fault!
| However this behavior is causing Python to suffer from lack of diverse
| developers, and shrinks the pool of those who wish to participate.
| 
| But i'll tell you one thing, you will never bleed me dry because i am
| stronger than all! I will be a thorn in your sides every time you pick
| on a newbie. I will point out every negative comment you make, it will
| not be hidden as you like.

You don't need to need to hide; list members can killfile you as they
see fit, and not be particularly bothered. Their choice:-)

| Whether i am accepted or assassinated i
| will create an irreversible butterfly affect that no organization of
| negativity can endure. I will bring some positive attitudes to this
| group if it's the last thing i do! That will be my contribution to
| this group, and it may just save the Python community as a whole!

Hmm. Your efforts are misdirected. It would be better to devote your
energies to implementing something useful, such as your API.

Other list members surely have enough on their plates; I don't have enough
time to work on my own stuff, and I don't even have a life!  Nobody needs
to do this stuff for you unless they personally want the same thing.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Weakness is a better teacher than strength.  Weakness must learn to
understand the obstacles that strength brushes aside. - Mason Cooley