WxPython versus Tkinter.

[geremy condra]

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:10 PM, Octavian Rasnita <orasnita at gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "geremy condra" <debatem1 at gmail.com>
>>
>> There's a difference between what you say and how you say it. If a
>> friend came up to you and said "give me $100 right now!", you probably
>> wouldn't do it. If the same friend came up to you and said "I know
>> this is a big thing to ask, but I really need $100 and I can't
>> guarantee I'll be able to pay you back. Could you please help me?" I
>
> Are you even thinking that the second sentence is much harder to express?
> Do you imagine that my knowledge of English is limited by the fact that it
> is not my native language and it is a language not spoken by very many
> people in my country?
> I simply might not be able to express so nice as you like that I need 100
> bucks from you, but I might be able to just tell you that "need 100 dollars.
> now".
> I could argue much more nice and expressive if we were speaking Romanian and
> not English.

At least 40% of my coworkers do not speak English as their native
language. Your problem is not the language. Your problem is your
attitude.

> But I don't condemn you for this, because many years ago when I was in
> school I had the opinion that some foreign colleagues are a little stupid
> just because they were not able to express very well the ideas which were
> not very simple, and well, they were not stupid at all, but they didn't know
> my language well enough and they probably would think the same thing about
> me if we were speaking in Russian.

I don't have that problem.

>> don't know very many people who would refuse if they were able to
>> help. The reason is simple: the first does not acknowledge the value
>> of the person doing the favor, and the second does.
>
> Exactly what I said. They are doing the same mistake as I did 20 years ago.
> By the way, can't you see any syntactic dissacords in my phrases? Haven't
> you think that my English might not be as fluent to be able to express
> everything I want to say very well?

As I mentioned earlier, you'll find I don't have a lot of pity for you in this.

>> More concretely, you have an opinion that not supporting accessibility
>> is discrimination. Tyler has an opinion that not supporting
>> accessibility is a bug.
>
> This is not always true. Not supporting accessibility when *it is not
> possible* yes, it is a bug as you say, so we agree here.
> But not supporting accessibility because the programmer *doesn't want this*,
> it is not a bug, but discrimination. Don't you agree with this?
> And if Python would have been able to support accessibility it would have
> mean that it promotes discrimination because it promotes the wrong tool, but
> it seems that Python 3 doesn't have an accessible GUI lib for the moment, so
> no, it is not discrimination (but Emile told us that there is no support for
> WxPython in Python 3 just today, so I didn't know this and I already
> wondered why nobody told about this real problem).

Keep in mind, I'm not saying this. This is a sketch of your point of
view and Tyler's point of view.

>> Are you going to demand that he change his
>> opinion? Or are you going to ask that he consider yours?
>
> It seems that the discrimination should be something that should be
> discussed if and when it should be applied, isn't it?
> Well, I think that everyone should understand why the programs must be
> accessible and why everybody should care about all the users of an
> application and that it is not normal to not care.

Ah! I think I see where you're going wrong. It *is* normal not to
care- not just about this, but about any given special interest other
than your own. You have to convince people to care, or they don't- and
you're not convincing, just yelling.

>>> Have I said something wrong? Did I use bad words? Or what was it wrong?
>>
>> I think it was uncivil. It was rude, unkind, and generally
>> disagreeable. I lost respect for you, and by proxy, for your point of
>> view. In other words, you lost support not because fewer people agree
>> with your position, but because fewer people want to agree with you.
>
> You are also very unkind and rude when you say that the disabled that need
> to use a screen reader should be a kind of second hand people that need to
> beg for a little accessibility.

I don't say this. Don't try to stuff me into a strawman argument.

> When you create a program, why do you create a visual interface for it? Why
> don't you create just an audio interface?

I don't create a visual interface. I have never found it necessary for
my line of work, and have little stake in this discussion besides that
of advocating civility on this list.

> You do this because otherwise you would not please those who can see. Why
> shouldn't be something normal, and that *should be not be discussable at
> all* to offer the same accessibility to everyone?

You can discuss it. You just have to convince others that you're
right, and you're not doing that well. I offered you some advice on
how to go about doing it better.

> And you didn't say what was rude from what I said. You said just that it was
> rude.

I can provide quotes, if you like.

> Oh yes I know that it is unkind because most of the people don't even like
> to talk personally with disabled people, but this doesn't mean that the
> disabled people are something not normal, but those who have those biases
> towards those who are very different.

I don't have this problem.

>> I didn't ask you to change your opinion. I told you that you would be
>> more effective if you changed your attitude. Like rantingrick, you're
>> free to ignore that advice, but it is good advice for both you and the
>> community, and I urge you to take it.
>
> About what community? It would be better for the community of the disabled?
> Or you don't care about that community?

I think it would be better for the Python community if you were more
civil and for the disabled community if you were more successful. The
two go hand in hand.

>>> Or you recommend me to be just like Tyler that can't use all the apps he
>>> could use if they were accessible, but he doesn't care because he cares much
>>> more to play nice in order to be accepted in this not-right society?
>>
>> I would recommend that you learn to be civil to those you disagree
>> with. The alternative is to be surrounded by them.
>
> Aha, you show that old fact that the majority is more important because it
> has more power, the fact Tyler is afraid.

More people have the power to accomplish what fewer cannot. You want
big changes, you will need big support, and people won't just move to
your side because you're angry. You have to convince them.

> The majority can be also wrong, the majority can also have bad feelings, and
> that majority that have the power to change things should be informed and
> convinced to change them.

Yes, absolutely.

> If the majority doesn't care about the minorities which are minorities
> without willing to be so, then it means that it is wrong.

I don't know that's the case, and I suspect there are shades of grey
you are not acknowledging here.

Geremy Condra