WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Littlefield, Tyler]

 >I don't want to convince anyone, but I just want to inform the others 
and let >them know if they are doing something not recommended.
not recommended by -you-, which is different than by a community or the 
subset of people you are attempting to represent. furthermore, your 
attidude is that of "comply to my definition of what is needed, or you 
are selfish, rude, mean, cruel, etc." Then when that fails, you try 
cramming words in people's mouth to make them feel like they kick 
puppies, and to bring everyone else to this same conclusion.
On 1/26/2011 1:46 PM, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> From: "geremy condra"<debatem1 at gmail.com>
>> At least 40% of my coworkers do not speak English as their native
>> language. Your problem is not the language. Your problem is your
>> attitude.
> The atitude considered nice is just duplicity for convincing others, and I don't like duplicity. I like to know exactly what the people think and I want them know what I think.
> I don't want to convince anyone, but I just want to inform the others and let them know if they are doing something not recommended.
>
> I agree, telling the people that they are doing something wrong, directly, without sugar, might be considered a bad atitude by those who prefer duplicity and nice words just for the sake of socializing, but is that atitude worst than of those who don't care about discriminatory practices?
>
>
>>> But I don't condemn you for this, because many years ago when I was in
>>> school I had the opinion that some foreign colleagues are a little stupid
>>> just because they were not able to express very well the ideas which were
>>> not very simple, and well, they were not stupid at all, but they didn't know
>>> my language well enough and they probably would think the same thing about
>>> me if we were speaking in Russian.
>> I don't have that problem.
> Oh yes you do as well as many others and it is obvious because I have seen that some of you consider me to be very angry, but I am not angry nor nervous at all so there may be something else.
> If I say that I don't like a certain country because it attacks other countries, it doesn't mean that I am nervous or angry. I am just expressing my opinions about that country.
> About those who use Tkinter I can't even say that I don't like them or something like that, because it is very normal that most of Python programmers should prefer it, because it was promoted a long time by Python. What I said is that it is not OK that Python promoted and keeps promoting a GUI lib that creates discrimination, but I don't know where you have seen that anger.
>
>>> Exactly what I said. They are doing the same mistake as I did 20 years ago.
>>> By the way, can't you see any syntactic dissacords in my phrases? Haven't
>>> you think that my English might not be as fluent to be able to express
>>> everything I want to say very well?
>> As I mentioned earlier, you'll find I don't have a lot of pity for you in this.
> I don't need your pitty, but I can see that you misunderstand me, thinking that I am angry, thinking that I want to force everyone to use a GUI lib, and I thought that my English may not be clear enough to make you understand what I want to say.
>
>>> But not supporting accessibility because the programmer *doesn't want this*,
>>> it is not a bug, but discrimination. Don't you agree with this?
>>> And if Python would have been able to support accessibility it would have
>>> mean that it promotes discrimination because it promotes the wrong tool, but
>>> it seems that Python 3 doesn't have an accessible GUI lib for the moment, so
>>> no, it is not discrimination (but Emile told us that there is no support for
>>> WxPython in Python 3 just today, so I didn't know this and I already
>>> wondered why nobody told about this real problem).
>> Keep in mind, I'm not saying this.
> Saying what? I don't understand what you were not saying.
>
>> This is a sketch of your point of view and Tyler's point of view.
> What has the phrase I told above with what Tyler said?
> I said that if somebody can create accessible programs but doesn't *want* to do that, this generates discrimination.
> Don't you agree with this?
>
>>> Well, I think that everyone should understand why the programs must be
>>> accessible and why everybody should care about all the users of an
>>> application and that it is not normal to not care.
>> Ah! I think I see where you're going wrong. It *is* normal not to
>> care- not just about this, but about any given special interest other
>> than your own. You have to convince people to care, or they don't- and
>> you're not convincing, just yelling.
> Where did I say that it is normal to not care about other things?
> I have also agreed that it is important to have support for Python 3, that it is also important the commercial point of view, it is also important to have a GUI lib without bugs that generates errors, and you are again and again misunderstanding me thinking that I am yelling, even though I am writing all these things very calm.
>
> And I am not trying to convince anyone. I mean, we are not in the previous century and I hope that I don't need to convince anyone that offering accessibility for everyone is very important. Do you think that on this list there still are members that need to be convinced about this things? Do you really think that there are members that can't understand the importance of accessibility and they need to be convinced, persuaded, motivated with nice words? Do you have such a bad idea about them?
> I am sure that they all know very well why the accessibility is important and I was just trying to tell them that Tkinter doesn't create accessible apps.
>
>
>>> You are also very unkind and rude when you say that the disabled that need
>>> to use a screen reader should be a kind of second hand people that need to
>>> beg for a little accessibility.
>> I don't say this. Don't try to stuff me into a strawman argument.
> Then why do you ask nice words from me and an atitude which should be nice for the others?
> We are not negociating here and I am not trying to convince anyone. I am just giving them the information that Tkinter creates inaccessible apps, and this creates discrimination, which is very true. It is not nice to talk about these things, , but first it is not nice for those discriminated, not for the others.
>
>
>>> When you create a program, why do you create a visual interface for it? Why
>>> don't you create just an audio interface?
>> I don't create a visual interface. I have never found it necessary for
>> my line of work, and have little stake in this discussion besides that
>> of advocating civility on this list.
> You are confusing civility with dupplicity. I was very civilized here. I didn't called names, I didn't used bad words but I am just trying to show why what the majority does is bad. Well, from its point of view this may mean that it is not civilized because it doesn't like it.
>
>
>>> You do this because otherwise you would not please those who can see. Why
>>> shouldn't be something normal, and that *should be not be discussable at
>>> all* to offer the same accessibility to everyone?
>> You can discuss it. You just have to convince others that you're
>> right, and you're not doing that well. I offered you some advice on
>> how to go about doing it better.
> Well, I see that you really think than now in 2011 the people need to be convinced that the accessibility is important.
>
>
>>> And you didn't say what was rude from what I said. You said just that it was
>>> rude.
>> I can provide quotes, if you like.
> Yes please do it.
>
>>> Oh yes I know that it is unkind because most of the people don't even like
>>> to talk personally with disabled people, but this doesn't mean that the
>>> disabled people are something not normal, but those who have those biases
>>> towards those who are very different.
>> I don't have this problem.
> Oh yes you do have it, because otherwise you wouldn't consider my messages as angry and not civilized just because they are not nice and candy and they don't try to convince the others that they should do something, because they are different from what you expect.
>
>> I think it would be better for the Python community if you were more
>> civil and for the disabled community if you were more successful. The
>> two go hand in hand.
> I see that you see me as a paid advocate that should succeed convincing a certain group to do a certain thing, but I already told that I am not trying to convince anyone.
> I just said that now in our era all the people should be very well convinced about the importance of accessibility, and there are very many resources on the net that talk about accessibility if there is somebody that doesn't know what we are talking about, so I don't need to convince anyone.
> But I think that this is a false argument, because I doubt that there are list members that don't know the importance of accessibility.
>
>
>> More people have the power to accomplish what fewer cannot. You want
>> big changes, you will need big support, and people won't just move to
>> your side because you're angry. You have to convince them.
> I am not angry, but I am not trying to convince anyone about the importance of accessibility because its importance is very well known.
> The problems are those who are aware about the accessibility but that still don't care. They are the people that should be taken with nice words? Doesn't that mean begging for a little accessibility as I said above?
>
>
>>> If the majority doesn't care about the minorities which are minorities
>>> without willing to be so, then it means that it is wrong.
>> I don't know that's the case, and I suspect there are shades of grey
>> you are not acknowledging here.
> If you are acknowledging, then please give some examples of shades of gray.
>
> Octavian
>


-- 

Thanks,
Ty