Tkinter: The good, the bad, and the ugly!

[Arndt Roger Schneider]

Octavian Rasnita schrieb:
> From: "Arndt Roger Schneider" <arndt.roger at addcom.de>
> 

At least keep the disclaimer:
 >> Well, tosssing screenshots around doesn't prove wether
 >> a framwork/toolkit is good or not;
 >> It only displays the developers commitment to create
 >> a work of art.

>>
>> Overall impression:
>> The software was designed for windows; more or less
>> following the windows hci-guidelines,
>> The windows version is resonable good.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the most important thing, because most users use Windows. Those 
> who have other preferences are not forced to choose Windows, so it's 
> their choice, and if the interface doesn't look so nice, that's it.
> 

See disclaimer.
Since you mentioned "nice": I do not use such words
to charcterize a gui. I think the developers of said software
tried hard to make it "nice" and "beauty", hence  the brushed
background and group-boxes --BTW: the windows Guidelines also
discourage using group-boxes for usability reasons (see Theo. Mandel
object oriented user interfaces).


>> Back to rantingrick 21st century toolkit/framwork:
>> Let's have a look at the numbers:
>> Worlwide pc market are 300 Million pcs per year,
>> this number includes desktops(2/3) and servers(1/3).
>> Your gui app is not relevant on servers.
>> Quite a good deal of the remaining pc's are sold in
>> countries with rampant ilict software copies;
>> Since there are no software cost for these copies
> 
> 
> Python is an open source software and the programmers that use Python 
> might also prefer to offer open source software for free so this is not 
> important. And "not legal" is not a very correct term, because somebody 
> from Iran or North Corea must respect the laws from his/her country and 
> in her/his country some things might not be forbidden by law, so it may 
> be perfectly legal.
> 

Nice cropping,
 >>the people tend to install the big, bloated software
 >pieces from named computer companies
 >>--you wont sell linux there, because it is more
 >>  expensive than an ilict windows+office++.

Illict as in unlicensed. Law has nothing to do with it.
And yes these unlicensed sofware has an negative
impact on the distribution of free open source software.

I wonder, what license do you use in your own work,
and what do you think about people which violate your license?


>> ~ 100 Million potential new desktop users for you.
>>
>> Apple's projection for the ipad in 2011 are 65 Million pieces,
>> iphone and ipod touch will be roughly the same.
>> 130 Million ios pieces.
>> The android market is still unclear, but I do suppose
>> it will rival ios, lets say 100 Million in 2011.
>>
>> ~ 100 Million new android users for you.
>>
>>
>> Microsoft mobile and blueberry are wildcards;
>> no serious forecast is possible for these devices.
>> Lets assume:
>>
>> ~ 50 Million blueberry, windows mobile.
>>
>> Total is: 380 Million potential new user for your application.
>>
>>
>> wxWidgets: 36000000 LOC, python: 1400000 LOC
>> --these are very old numbers, but from the same time period.
> 
> 
> This is a bad comparison because the programs targetted to the mobile 
> phones are in most cases very different than the programs that need to 
> be used on the desktop.

This is the marketplace for all gui applications,
and not a comparision.

> Do you want to say that WxPython is not good just because it doesn't 
> work well on mobile phones?

I do not comment on the quality of either wxWidgets
nor wxPython. Both exist for certain reasons.
The desktop pc was the sole target for all the
big C++ gui class liraries in 1992. Over time a large code
base evolved which makes it very difficult to get these class
libraries into new
markets--such as today with mobile devices.

> Those numbers show that only the mobile phones are important, because 
> there are more mobile phones than computers.
> 

No, it doesn't. There are billions of mobile phones with
graphical user interfaces, still these phones weren't
relevant for gui applications.

> Well, Python needs a better GUI lib for using them on desktop computers, 
> not on mobile phones.
> 

wxWidgets is suiteable for the desktop.

>> The desktop pc market is in decline; there is
>> however a shift toward pc-servers, instead.
> 
> 
> What do you mean by declining? Are there fewer desktop PCs today than a 
> year ago?

I am writing about graphical applications not computers.

> 
>> Looking into wxWidgets:
>> Interactivity: keyboard focus, shortcuts, function keys,
>>   active foreground, active background are obsolete.
>>   hovering tooltips obsolete, status bar to large, obsolete.
>>   scrolled dialogs, obsolete. OK, Cancel, Retry, Abort
>>   buttons, obsolete, file dialogs obsolete, old style printing
>>   obsolete, drag-and-drop obsolete...
> 
> 
> Who says that they are obsolete?
> A good GUI interface should offer keyboard accessibility. Otherwise it 
> is broken.

OK, I take keyboard focus back.

> 
>> Summary wxWidgets:
>> wxWidgets is large scale C++ library from the 20th century,
>> solemnly dedicated toward desktop computers.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Python should promote a good GUI lib for desktop computers, and not 
> a poor GUI lib for desktop computers that might also work on other 
> platforms.
> 
>> wxWidgets is not suitable for a modern type
>> GUI ad thus clearly not the toolkit/framework
>> of the 21st century.
> 
> 
> Why do you think that everything what's modern is better?


"I belive in the horse", Kaiser Wilhelm II
-roger