From muhamadwahidi at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 12:39:31 2013
From: muhamadwahidi at gmail.com (muhamadwahidi at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 09:39:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python for IPSA (Power flow analysis)
In-Reply-To: <6288a409-db46-4987-91a7-2f3dd65b42dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <6288a409-db46-4987-91a7-2f3dd65b42dc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <aea61d01-3e8a-4632-9582-dc5b1001aa03@googlegroups.com>

Pada Selasa, 28 Mei 2013 17:00:42 UTC+7, Debbie  menulis:
> Hi there,
> 
> I am new to Python, and wondering if you could help me with python based coding for the IPSA (Power system analysis software). I have a electrical distribution network with generators, buses and loads, on which I am performing the load flow analysis every 1 hour for a period of 1 year. 
> 
> 
> 
> The code to perform instantaneous load/power flow analysis is given below. I need to modify it such that I can perform this load flow analysis every 1 hour for a period of 1 year. Please help.
> 
> 
> 
> from ipsa import *
> 
> 
> 
> ipsasys = IscInterface()
> 
> net = ipsasys.ReadFile("refinery.iif")
> 
> bok = net.DoLoadFlow();
> 
> if bok:
> 
>     busbars = net.GetBusbars()
> 
>     print "Load Flow results:"
> 
>     print ""
> 
>     print "BusName     Vmag(kV)"
> 
>     print "===================="
> 
>     for bus in busbars.itervalues():
> 
>         name = bus.GetName()
> 
>         vm = bus.GetVoltageMagnitudekV()
> 
>         res = "%-8s  %10.5f" % (name, vm)
> 
>         print res
> 
> else:
> 
>     print "Load Flow failed!"
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Debbie



From awilliam at whitemice.org  Thu Dec  5 07:42:12 2013
From: awilliam at whitemice.org (Adam Tauno Williams)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 07:42:12 -0500
Subject: Share Code: Laptop Lid State
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoquUWmNBP0LaN0PcUkUv8=a=BgCKrYr9YjoS+RiTar7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <51F7C861.3060208@Gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoquUWmNBP0LaN0PcUkUv8=a=BgCKrYr9YjoS+RiTar7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1386247332.3603.8.camel@workstation.wmmi.net>

On Tue, 2013-07-30 at 17:00 +0100, Chris Angelico wrote: 
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 3:06 PM, Devyn Collier Johnson
> <devyncjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Aloha everyone!
> >    I attached a script that I thought I could share with everyone for your
> > help. This Python3 script only works on Unix systems. It prints the current
> > state of the lid. This can be used to make a script that performs some
> > action when the lid is closed or open. The script is licensed under LGPLv3
> > and I will soon upload it to my Launchpad account. Enjoy!
> There's... no Python code in that. Why not simply
> open("/proc/acpi/button/lid/LID/state") and read from it, instead of
> using cat and awk?

The correct way to implement this is to use the power management
services available on the System D-Bus.

Integrating with D-Bus from Python is easy!



From cmpython at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 18:55:34 2013
From: cmpython at gmail.com (CM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:55:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PEP 450 Adding a statistics module to Python
In-Reply-To: <520592f9$0$30000$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <520592f9$0$30000$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <b0be8564-f22e-4b9a-b8ad-d62055574aae@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:10:18 PM UTC-4, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I am seeking comments on PEP 450, Adding a statistics module to Python's 
> standard library:

I just saw today that this will be included in Python 3.4.  Congratulations, Steven, this is a nice addition.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:21:16 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:21:16 +0000
Subject: status of regex modules
In-Reply-To: <l4c4hr$1lr$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l4c4hr$1lr$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7nkpl$k0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 24/10/2013 22:47, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> The new module is now five years old.  PEP 429 Python 3.4 release
> schedule has it listed under "Other proposed large-scale changes" but I
> don't believe this is actually happening.  Lots of issues on the bug
> tracker have been closed as fixed in the new module, see issue 2636 for
> more data.  Some work is still being carried out on the old re module.
>
> So where do we stand?  Is the new module getting into Python 3.x, Python
> 4.y or what?  If no do all the old issues have to be reopened and
> applied to the re module?  Who has to make the final decision on all of
> this?
>
> Note that I've no direct interest as I rarely if ever use the little
> perishers, I just find this situation bizarre.
>

Anybody?

And FTR I'll break Armed Forces Rule No. 1 and volunteer my own 
pitifully poor servies if I can help take this forward, as I think it's 
daft having issues marked as fixed on the bug tracker but the fix not 
being available in the standard library, only on pypi.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec  4 23:37:57 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 23:37:57 -0500
Subject: status of regex modules
In-Reply-To: <l7nkpl$k0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l4c4hr$1lr$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7nkpl$k0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7ovur$64b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/2013 11:21 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 24/10/2013 22:47, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> The new module is now five years old.  PEP 429 Python 3.4 release
>> schedule has it listed under "Other proposed large-scale changes" but I
>> don't believe this is actually happening.  Lots of issues on the bug
>> tracker have been closed as fixed in the new module, see issue 2636 for
>> more data.  Some work is still being carried out on the old re module.

>> So where do we stand?  Is the new module getting into Python 3.x, Python
>> 4.y or what?

Good question. I hope so.

>> If no do all the old issues have to be reopened and
>> applied to the re module?

I would prefer not.

>> Who has to make the final decision on all of this?

Ultimately Guido, with a lot of input

>> Note that I've no direct interest as I rarely if ever use the little
>> perishers, I just find this situation bizarre.

It is definitely unfortunate and even embarrassing. At one time, the 
hangup was a minor feature incompatibility between re and regex. Guido 
was reluctant to make a switch that would occasionally break code. I 
believe that this is fixed -- by deciding to call it regex rather then re.

My impression from
http://bugs.python.org/issue2636 Stage: patch review
and pydev discussion is that regex did not land in 3.4 because no one 
did the rest of the needed review. I do not really know what needs to be 
done next. Being coded in C does not help speed review.

> And FTR I'll break Armed Forces Rule No. 1 and volunteer my own
> pitifully poor servies if I can help take this forward, as I think it's
> daft having issues marked as fixed on the bug tracker but the fix not
> being available in the standard library, only on pypi.

Are you volunteering to list issues to be reopened, or to help with code 
review?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec  5 16:20:19 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 21:20:19 +0000
Subject: status of regex modules
In-Reply-To: <l7ovur$64b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l4c4hr$1lr$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7nkpl$k0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7ovur$64b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7qqmd$m8s$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 05/12/2013 04:37, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/4/2013 11:21 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 24/10/2013 22:47, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> The new module is now five years old.  PEP 429 Python 3.4 release
>>> schedule has it listed under "Other proposed large-scale changes" but I
>>> don't believe this is actually happening.  Lots of issues on the bug
>>> tracker have been closed as fixed in the new module, see issue 2636 for
>>> more data.  Some work is still being carried out on the old re module.
>
>>> So where do we stand?  Is the new module getting into Python 3.x, Python
>>> 4.y or what?
>
> Good question. I hope so.

So do I.  When? is the simple question that I'd like to see answered.

>
>>> If no do all the old issues have to be reopened and
>>> applied to the re module?
>
> I would prefer not.

So would I, but it's already been deffered twice (see below), wash 
rinse, repeat?  So should it again fail to be accepted into the Python 
core for 3.5, will there be a sensible alternative to doing precisely this?

>
>>> Who has to make the final decision on all of this?
>
> Ultimately Guido, with a lot of input

I assume that Guido could now delegate this if he wished, in the same 
way that PEPs are now delegated?

>
>>> Note that I've no direct interest as I rarely if ever use the little
>>> perishers, I just find this situation bizarre.
>
> It is definitely unfortunate and even embarrassing. At one time, the
> hangup was a minor feature incompatibility between re and regex. Guido
> was reluctant to make a switch that would occasionally break code. I
> believe that this is fixed -- by deciding to call it regex rather then re.

A definite pig's ear, but one that has been shaped by history.  It's my 
belief that it's now too late to go back and write a PEP for all the 
changes as would certainly be required now, so let's take this forward. 
  I do not know enough about the hangup or name change to comment.

>
> My impression from
> http://bugs.python.org/issue2636 Stage: patch review
> and pydev discussion is that regex did not land in 3.4 because no one
> did the rest of the needed review. I do not really know what needs to be
> done next. Being coded in C does not help speed review.

I don't recall seeing any discussion about it getting into 3.4, did I 
miss something?  Previously it didn't get into 3.3 either, see 
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0398/ Python 3.3 Release Schedule, 
where it's listed in the section "Deferred to post-3.3:".

>
>> And FTR I'll break Armed Forces Rule No. 1 and volunteer my own
>> pitifully poor servies if I can help take this forward, as I think it's
>> daft having issues marked as fixed on the bug tracker but the fix not
>> being available in the standard library, only on pypi.
>
> Are you volunteering to list issues to be reopened, or to help with code
> review?
>

I don't mind doing any grunt work to help out.  I am not qualified to 
take on code review for a high profile Python module that is written in C.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From stanward at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 14:38:26 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (stanward at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:38:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>

Hi Ned,

I am running into the same problem described by Bart.  I am teaching my kids to program using the Python For Kids book on a Mac OSX 10.8.5.


I have installed "Mac OS X 64-bit/32-bit Installer (3.3.3) for Mac OS X 10.6 and later" (file: python-3.3.3-macosx10.6.dmg) and installed the "ActiveTcl 8.6.1 for Mac OS X (10.5+, x86_64/x86)" (file: ActiveTcl8.6.1.1.297588-macosx10.5-i386-x86_64-threaded), but IDLE keeps showing the message "WARNING: The version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.9) in use may be unstable. Visit http://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk/ for current information."

Per your instructions in the thread http://code.activestate.com/lists/python-dev/117314/ I have inspected the IDLE process using Activity Monitor and the Tcl/Tk processes being used are:
/System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl
/System/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk

Is there a PATH setting or something I can use to force the use of the ActiveTcl Tcl/Tk located in:
/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl and
/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk

I have tried a bunch of different things all to no avail, so I am now reaching for help.  I have UNIX experience and a CS degree, although very rusty, so have at with any technical instructions.  Thank you very much!!!


From stanward at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 15:56:53 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (stanward at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:56:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2ff1185-fa38-4609-b9d3-ba512241c141@googlegroups.com>

> Is there a PATH setting or something I can use to force the use of the ActiveTcl Tcl/Tk located in: 
> /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl and 
> /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk

Correction.  The ActiveTcl /Library directions are:

/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6
/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6

Note also that symbolic links were created by something (assume the install script) from:

/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to
/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6 to

and 

/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/Current to
/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.6

Also, the IDLE message I am getting (which is slightly different than Bart's) is: "WARNING: The version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.9) in use may be unstable."  I assume this is referring to the Apple system version of Tcl/Tk.

Maybe there is symbolic link I need to set-up...

By the way, I have tried to address with setting to PATH in .bash_profile, having /usr/local/bin first in the path.  This has created a situation of running the correct version of tclsh from bash, but it does not solve the problem for IDLE, even if putting a specific call to . .bash_profile from the Automator script which starts IDLE.

Actively working on this... may try to create a symbolic link from /System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current


From stanward at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 17:18:18 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (stanward at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:18:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <c2ff1185-fa38-4609-b9d3-ba512241c141@googlegroups.com>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
 <c2ff1185-fa38-4609-b9d3-ba512241c141@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <aa02461f-2ac3-447a-8851-8367dfe21db1@googlegroups.com>

> Actively working on this... may try to create a symbolic link from 
> /System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to 
> /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current

Symbolic link (ln -s) does not seem to have worked either.  Grrrr.

Tried

/System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions, did
ln -s /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6 Current

and

/System/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions, did
ln -s /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.6 Current

Also tried

/System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions, did
ln -s /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current Current

and

/System/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions, did
ln -s /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/Current Current
such as /System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6 (instead of Current).


From stanward at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 23:25:05 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (Stan Ward)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 20:25:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <aa02461f-2ac3-447a-8851-8367dfe21db1@googlegroups.com>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
 <c2ff1185-fa38-4609-b9d3-ba512241c141@googlegroups.com>
 <aa02461f-2ac3-447a-8851-8367dfe21db1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <cf43fba5-47de-4bf6-8225-1373aa687a13@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 29, 2013 5:18:18 PM UTC-5, Stan Ward wrote:

Note: I do not get the "WARNING: The version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.9) in use may be unstable." message when I run python directly from bash (Mac "Terminal"), but I do get it in the IDLE.app Shell Window, run as follows, based on the recommendation in Python for Kids, with the addition of the .bash_profile call to to try to ensure paths.

. .bash_profile
open -a "//Applications/Python 3.3/IDLE.app" --args -n

Sorry about all this newbie questions/info.


From stanward at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 17:09:25 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (stanward at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:09:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9628c3cb-f0f1-4089-8c9a-fa9b32e50432@googlegroups.com>

> Is there a PATH setting or something I can use to force the use of the ActiveTcl Tcl/Tk located in: 
> /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.5/Tcl and 
> /Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.5/Tk

Correction.  The ActiveTcl /Library directions are:

/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6
/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.6

Note also that symbolic links were created by something (assume the install script) from:

/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to
/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/8.6 to

and 

/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/Current to
/Library/Frameworks/Tk.framework/Versions/8.6

Also, the IDLE message I am getting (which is slightly different than Bart's) is: "WARNING: The version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.9) in use may be unstable."  I assume this is referring to the Apple system version of Tcl/Tk.

Maybe there is symbolic link I need to set-up...

By the way, I have tried to address with setting to PATH in .bash_profile, having /usr/local/bin first in the path.  This has created a situation of running the correct version of tclsh from bash, but it does not solve the problem for IDLE, even if putting a specific call to . .bash_profile from the Automator script which starts IDLE.

Actively working on this...May try to create a symbolic link from /System/Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current to /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework/Versions/Current


From nad at acm.org  Mon Dec 30 01:32:24 2013
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 22:32:24 -0800
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <nad-97DF0A.22322429122013@news.gmane.org>

In article <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216 at googlegroups.com>,
 stanward at gmail.com wrote:
> I have installed "Mac OS X 64-bit/32-bit Installer (3.3.3) for Mac OS X 10.6 
> and later" (file: python-3.3.3-macosx10.6.dmg) and installed the "ActiveTcl 
> 8.6.1 for Mac OS X (10.5+, x86_64/x86)" (file: 
> ActiveTcl8.6.1.1.297588-macosx10.5-i386-x86_64-threaded), but IDLE keeps 
> showing the message "WARNING: The version of Tcl/Tk (8.5.9) in use may be 
> unstable. Visit http://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk/ for current 
> information."

You need to install ActiveTcl 8.5 for OS X, currently 8.5.15.0. It's 
further down on the ActiveTcl download page 
(http://www.activestate.com/activetcl/downloads).  Installing 8.6.1 does 
not help (it doesn't hurt, either, so you don't need to worry about 
removing it).

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org



From stanward at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 23:26:13 2013
From: stanward at gmail.com (Stan Ward)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python 3.3.2 Shell Message
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4712.1388385153.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <BLU170-W5070CFBBC32E1420E468B5ABF30@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.2147.1383848560.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78312fc7-adf1-4324-82f3-c53a4622b216@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4712.1388385153.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2e4f978c-2077-4ce1-9579-53e26c4ce834@googlegroups.com>

Thanks Ned.  That did the trick!  Jason Briggs, author of Python of Kids, gave me the same answer.  Happy to be over this hurdle.  Thanks!  Happy New Year!!


From albert at spenarnc.xs4all.nl  Fri Dec  6 08:54:53 2013
From: albert at spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst)
Date: 06 Dec 2013 13:54:53 GMT
Subject: Sharing Python installation between architectures
References: <mailman.2687.1384556852.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a1d72d$0$4657$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl>

In article <mailman.2687.1384556852.18130.python-list at python.org>,
Paul Smith  <paul at mad-scientist.net> wrote:
>One thing I always liked about Perl was the way you can create a single
>installation directory which can be shared between archictures.  Say
>what you will about the language: the Porters have an enormous amount of
>experience and expertise producing portable and flexible interpreter
>installations.
>
>By this I mean, basically, multiple architectures (Linux, Solaris,
>MacOSX, even Windows) sharing the same $prefix/lib/python2.7 directory.
>The large majority of the contents there are completely portable across
>architectures (aren't they?) so why should I have to duplicate many
>megabytes worth of files?

The solution is of course to replace all duplicates by hard links.
A tool for this is useful in a lot of other circumstances too.
In a re-installation of the whole or parts, the hard links
will be removed, and the actual files are only removed if they aren't needed
for any of the installations, so this is transparent for reinstallation.
After a lot of reinstallation you want to run the tool again.

This is of course only possible on real file systems (probably not on FAT),
but your files reside on a server, so chances are they are on a real file
system.

(The above is partly in jest. It is a real solution to storage problems,
but storage problems are unheard of in these days of Tera byte disks.
It doesn't help with the clutter, which was probably the main motivation.)

Symbolic links are not as transparent, but they may work very well too.
Have the common part set apart and replace everything else by symbolic links.

There is always one more way to skin a cat.

Groetjes Albert
-- 
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert at spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst



From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 23:05:00 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 20:05:00 -0800
Subject: Recursive generator for combinations of a multiset?
In-Reply-To: <20131121174614.53450d51@mini.home>
References: <20131121174614.53450d51@mini.home>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pj7KKSituJrtjjvsCHR1+QhO00wAbc2A1L6wmMiUcmPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 10:46 PM, John O'Hagan <research at johnohagan.com>wrote:

>
> Short story: the subject says it all, so if you have an answer already,
> fire away. Below is the long story of what I'm using it for, and why I
> think it needs to be recursive. It may even be of more general
> interest in terms of filtering the results of generators.
>


> Any suggestions?
>
I've updated my code at
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/anagrams/trunk/; It's multiword now.
 It can blast through the word "punishment" in 4
seconds, but for "The public art galleries" it ate about 7 gigabytes of RAM
and ran for more than a day before I killed it.

I believe it's an exponential problem.  Parallelization might help, but
it'd probably take a lot of RAM that way.  Maybe the RAM use would be
better with CPython, but it's much faster with Pypy; I did most of my
testing with Pypy 2.2.
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From kw at codebykevin.com  Mon Dec  2 09:39:36 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 09:39:36 -0500
Subject: Getting the Appdata Directory with Python and PEP?
In-Reply-To: <2b6c4be1-e23f-488b-b64d-191d625dee46@googlegroups.com>
References: <50402350-c9cb-47be-b513-ad2fb7170187@googlegroups.com>
 <27870dae-87ff-4435-a2ff-a42f95c21d48@googlegroups.com>
 <5294f942$0$16012$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>
 <2b6c4be1-e23f-488b-b64d-191d625dee46@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7i636$9am$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/26/13, 5:49 PM, Eamonn Rea wrote:
>> Maybe this module is of some use to you:
>> >
>> >https://pypi.python.org/pypi/appdirs
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >It provides a unified Python API to the various OS specific 'user' directory locations.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Irmen
> I saw this, but I wanted to do it myself as I stated in the OP:)

This module appears to simply use hard-coded paths on Unix/Linux and OS 
X--not much to learn there, except which paths to code.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From josefg at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 20:33:56 2013
From: josefg at gmail.com (josefg at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:33:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter: winfo_screenmmwidth discussion
In-Reply-To: <b4ba86d6-1235-4bd3-a08a-cf9ccf11540d@googlegroups.com>
References: <b4ba86d6-1235-4bd3-a08a-cf9ccf11540d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <46210473-d5e9-421d-a9fd-1a4a66423f20@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, November 26, 2013 2:13:57 PM UTC-8, jos... at gmail.com wrote:
> I am currently using Windows 7 Sp1, Tkinter 8.5, Python 2.7.4 on a laptop with no attached monitor. I am attempting to use winfo_screenmmwidth, but the returned value is incorrect. Specs state 280 mm. Physical measurement is 275 mm. EDID states 280 mm. Tkinter's winfo_screenmmwidth returns 361 mm. I don't have very much tkinter experience, please bear with me.
> 
> 
> 
> From where does winfo_screenmmheight get this information? I have looked through the source code and can't really find the source. The source code seems to lead to WidthMMOfScreen(Screen(tkwin)) in both tkGet.c and tkObj.c. Xlib.h defines the Screen structure which has mwidth defined in it. Xlib.h also defines WidthMMOfScreen as a macro "#define WidthMMOfScreen(s)	((s)->mwidth)" The X Window System Protocol:8 Connection Setup:Screen Information states "Width-in-millimeters and height-in-millimeters can be used to determine the physical size and the aspect ratio," but I'm not sure where the code is for the request.
> 
> 
> 
> So that's where I stopped on the X Windows side of things. I think I need to look at the source code for _tkinter.lib, but I'm not sure. I downloaded and started to look at the pywin32.exe (win32all) source code, but I'm not sure where to start with that either. I was expecting to see an entry which returns the EDID information, but I have not seen that yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Could somebody point me in the right direction? Or does anyone have any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance.

I wrote this to extract the EDID information. It's not very robust and for some reason not all of the subkeys are iterated in a sub key. I also haven't gotten a response from the tcl/tk folks yet.

import _winreg

def screen_wh():
    """Input - none
    Output - Screen's physical (width, height)"""
    hive = _winreg.HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
    path = "SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Enum\\DISPLAY"
    number = 0
    rtpath = None

    def search_subkeys(hive, path, number, rtpath):
        number = number + 1
        key = _winreg.OpenKey(hive, path, 0, _winreg.KEY_READ)
        try:
            i = 0
            while 1:
                name = _winreg.EnumKey(key, i)
                #print(" "*number + name, i) #Used to view registry path
                #for some reason this does not iterate over all registry keys crappy fix
                if i == 2:
                    try:
                        #This works with a direct call, but it's not very portable.
                        name2 = _winreg.EnumKey(key, 3)
                        if name2 == "Control":
                            rtpath = path
                    except WindowsError:
                        pass
                if rtpath == None:
                    rtpath = search_subkeys(hive, path+"\\"+name, number, rtpath)
                i += 1
        except WindowsError:
            pass
        
        return(rtpath)

    monitor = search_subkeys(hive,path, number,rtpath)
    print("EDID registry path: {0}".format(monitor))
    key = _winreg.OpenKey(hive, monitor+"\\Device Parameters")
    try:
        i = 0
        while 1:
            name, data, type = _winreg.EnumValue(key, i)
            if name == 'EDID':
                break
    except WindowsError:
        "EDID not found"
    width  = int(data[21].encode('hex'),16) * 10
    height = int(data[22].encode('hex'),16) * 10
    print("Width: {0} mm\nHeight: {1} mm".format(width,height))
    return((width, height))


From thebalancepro at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 20:47:01 2013
From: thebalancepro at gmail.com (Nick Mellor)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 17:47:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python and PEP8 - Recommendations on breaking up long lines?
In-Reply-To: <a98cfbef-bc48-41e8-98de-e616f201ffbe@googlegroups.com>
References: <a98cfbef-bc48-41e8-98de-e616f201ffbe@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4dd6c66d-7852-49c7-be02-ff57906e5303@googlegroups.com>

Hi Victor,

I use PyCharm which is set up by default to warn when line length exceeds 120 chars, not 80. Perhaps times have changed?

I often break comprehensions at the for, in and else clauses. It's often not for line length reasons but because it's easier to follow the code that way. I have heard this is how Haskell programmers tend to use comprehensions (comprehensions are from Haskell originally):

location=random.choice([loc['pk']                                 
                        for loc                                   
                        in locations.whole_register()             
                        if loc['fields']['provider_id'] == provider_id])))

The other suggestion I have is to put the with clauses in a generator function. This saves you a level or more of indentation and modularises the code usefully. Here's an example:

def spreadsheet(csv_filename):
    with open(csv_filename) as csv_file:
        for csv_row in list(csv.DictReader(csv_file, delimiter='\t')):
            yield csv_row

then invoked using:

for row in spreadsheet("...")
    # your processing code here

Cheers,

Nick


From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Dec  2 09:42:52 2013
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:42:52 +0000
Subject: reporting proxy porting problem
In-Reply-To: <l78efk$lv3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5297250A.80709@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
 <l78efk$lv3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529C9C6C.6050106@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

On 28/11/2013 22:01, Terry Reedy wrote:
..............
>
> All the transition guides I have seen recommend first updating 2.x code (and its
> tests) to work in 2.x with *all* classes being new-style classes. I presume one
> of the code checker programs will check this for you. To some extent, the
> upgrade can be done by changing one class at a time.
>

the intent is to produce a compatible code with aid of six.py like functions.


> Yes, this means abandoning support of 2.1 ;-). It also means giving up
> magical hacks that only work with old-style classes.
>
>> I find that I don't understand exactly how the original works so well,
>
> To me, not being comprehensible is not a good sign. I explain some of
> the behavior below.

The author has commented that he might have been drunk at time of writing :)


>
>> but here is a cut down version
>
..

thanks for the analysis, I think we came to the same broad conclusion. I think 
this particular module may get lost in the wash. If it ever needs 
re-implementing we can presumably rely on some more general approach as used in 
the various remote object proxies like pyro or similar.
-- 
Robin Becker



From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 19:38:19 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:38:19 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <utRlu.306946$0q6.176774@fx26.iad>
References: <utRlu.306946$0q6.176774@fx26.iad>
Message-ID: <20131204003819.GA85826@cskk.homeip.net>

On 28Nov2013 19:46, Arif Khokar <akhokar1234 at wvu.edu> wrote:
> The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult
> to browse archived posts to this group.  After I subscribed to this
> group (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately
> browse posts made as far back as April.

I vastly prefer email.

My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
mailman at least.

Example:

  get-mailman-archive http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/ >python-mac.mbox

I then suck the whole thing into the folder to which future list
posts will get filed. That way I have the whole archive, and it is
local, and I can examine it with whatever tools take my fancy
(mairix, mutt, grep, etc).

Most mailman lists make their archives readily available.

This cannot be said for the travesty that is Google Groups, and in
fact almost any other list/group/forum run with other software.

Really, most mailing list archives are easily small enough to do
this routinely.

Happy to assist anyone with scripts etc.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Carpe Daemon - Seize the Background Process
        - Paul Tomblin <ab401 at freenet2.carleton.ca>


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 20:39:16 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:39:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3541.1386117506.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <utRlu.306946$0q6.176774@fx26.iad>
 <mailman.3541.1386117506.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > Dennis Lee Bieber  writes:
> > > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
> >    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
> >    NNTP clients
>   GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>         - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch


In a similar vein, most phones nowadays are just computers
with a pocket-size form-factor and some wireless networking.

So when you say?

> My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> mailman at least.

and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
all your mailing-lists with all of them?

I know friends who have installed a home-data-store?

[Ive been resisting getting something like a NAS because each new
thingabob I own is one more thing to maintain. I also know from
past experience that such luddite battles are in the end always
lost -- Im no technophile but I expect to live and die a techie]

And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
(wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.

Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
on one's own computer? heck no!

But in the end, uniform access will trump all that -- compare the 
number of vi+emacs+eclipse users with google-doc users?

So to come back full-circle:

Earlier (your quote paraphrased)
Emacs is a full-blown OS -- only lacks a good editor.
Now: replace 'emacs' with 'firefox'.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 21:03:03 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:03:03 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>
References: <utRlu.306946$0q6.176774@fx26.iad>
 <mailman.3541.1386117506.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpaz7OHOodKAJ5rUtLYNgtRGTZ8TKeK=vQg+S33GXccDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:39 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
> (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
>
> Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> on one's own computer? heck no!

The solution often is to run your own central server and have all
devices connect to that. You get full control and still allow any
device to access the same content.

ChrisA


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Dec  4 17:47:11 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 09:47:11 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>
References: <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131204224711.GA76939@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> > archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> > mailman at least.
> 
> and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
> functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
> all your mailing-lists with all of them?

No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
account accessed by my phone.

I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.

So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
my phone.

[...]
> And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
> to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
can consult what's queuing up.

> The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
> (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
> Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> on one's own computer? heck no!

I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
software.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

All it takes is working on someone elses program to understand why they call
it "code".      - Henry O. Farad <lrc at netcom.COM>


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 02:42:57 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 23:42:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3592.1386197238.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <46bef6f7-0ca3-4574-8641-9838eba7bb9f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3592.1386197238.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cc8358df-46c9-4dde-b671-a7e830cc73a3@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:17:11 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > > My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> > > archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> > > mailman at least.
> > and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
> > functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
> > all your mailing-lists with all of them?

> No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
> lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
> my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
> account accessed by my phone.

> I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
> transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
> when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.

> So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
> a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
> my phone.

> [...]
> > And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
> > to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

> Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
> can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
> about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
> for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
> laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
> can consult what's queuing up.

> > The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
> > (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> > functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
> > Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> > Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> > on one's own computer? heck no!

> I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
> on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
> software.

Thanks Cameron. I am not sure how to parse the last sentence but on the
whole thanks for a fair balanced and honest review.

I think I have similar sentiments, viz.  I am not one to gush about
the latest gizmodic blissiness, however whenever Ive resisted and been
a late adopter -- color monitor, laptop, cellphone, credit card etc
etc -- in the end Ive had to move with the time and not been
better-off for my earlier resistance.


From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 19:40:05 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:40:05 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
References: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
Message-ID: <20131204004005.GA93000@cskk.homeip.net>

On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore at pascolo.net <pecore at pascolo.net> wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>    NNTP clients

  GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
        - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

Sorry, could not resist. I am, of course, a vi user.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

[...] look at yourself and, while you're at it, drag your eyes over some of
your mates who also ride bikes. They are doers, are they not, and what of the
rest of the population, that tragic ants nest of ever so busy bodies who
scurry from nest to work and back to the nest again at night, to recharge
themselves for another day of spirit-crushing toil? They are the watchers.
        - Sanford, REVS, 23dec93


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Wed Dec  4 10:50:11 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 15:50:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <mailman.3542.1386117610.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7nivj$fkq$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore at pascolo.net <pecore at pascolo.net> wrote:
>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>    NNTP clients
>
>   GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>         - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
      system.

 - Don't remember who, where, or when

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I feel like a wet
                                  at               parking meter on Darvon!
                              gmail.com            


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:07:45 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:07:45 +0000
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7nivj$fkq$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <mailman.3542.1386117610.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7nivj$fkq$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7nk09$lm9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 15:50, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore at pascolo.net <pecore at pascolo.net> wrote:
>>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>>> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>>     and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>>     NNTP clients
>>
>>    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>>          - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
>
> Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
>        system.
>
>   - Don't remember who, where, or when
>

It's a funny thing the computing world, with some people deriving 
operating systems from raincoats, and others editing code with a 
domestic household cleaner, what next, I ask myself?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec  4 11:21:07 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:21:07 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7nk09$lm9$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <mailman.3542.1386117610.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7nivj$fkq$1@reader1.panix.com> <l7nk09$lm9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7nkp9$fh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/13 11:07 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 15:50, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore at pascolo.net <pecore at pascolo.net> wrote:
>>>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>>>> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>>>     and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>>>     NNTP clients
>>>
>>>    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>>>          - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
>>
>> Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
>>        system.
>>
>>   - Don't remember who, where, or when
>>
>
> It's a funny thing the computing world, with some people deriving
> operating systems from raincoats, and others editing code with a
> domestic household cleaner, what next, I ask myself?
>

Computing with vacuum cleaners is on the decline at least: 
http://www.vax.co.uk/vacuum-cleaners

--Ned.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:33:44 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:33:44 +0000
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7nkp9$fh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <874n6uc97q.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <mailman.3542.1386117610.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7nivj$fkq$1@reader1.panix.com> <l7nk09$lm9$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7nkp9$fh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7nlh1$a9g$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 16:21, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/4/13 11:07 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 04/12/2013 15:50, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>>>> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore at pascolo.net <pecore at pascolo.net> wrote:
>>>>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>>>>> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>>>>     and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>>>>     NNTP clients
>>>>
>>>>    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>>>>          - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
>>>
>>> Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
>>>        system.
>>>
>>>   - Don't remember who, where, or when
>>>
>>
>> It's a funny thing the computing world, with some people deriving
>> operating systems from raincoats, and others editing code with a
>> domestic household cleaner, what next, I ask myself?
>>
>
> Computing with vacuum cleaners is on the decline at least:
> http://www.vax.co.uk/vacuum-cleaners
>
> --Ned.
>

Well it shouldn't be.  It's a well known fact that VMS stands for Very 
Much Safer.  I'd compare it to inferior products, but not even the 
threat of The Comfy Chair will make me type the names.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From neilc at norwich.edu  Mon Dec  2 08:03:52 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 13:03:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
>  Alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
>> with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
>> double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
>> would not want to upset them would we? )
>
> It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups.  Or,
> at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
> newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
> newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.
>
> The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
> site, which it does just fine.  Making it behave better with
> newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
> to do so.

The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.

I wish they'd never bought dejanews.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 20:17:51 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 18:17:51 -0700
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529D313F.6040104@gmail.com>

On 12/02/2013 06:03 AM, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> I wish they'd never bought dejanews.

I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things.  Seems like they bye up a
lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
the unwashed masses.  And add "social" to it.  Great for their bottom
line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.

Besides the dejanews thing, another one is Google Voice.  Used to be a
great tool but now they are trying to integrate it with Google Hangouts,
reduce its functionality, reduce interoperability, and otherwise ruin
it.  I fear next year is the last year for Google Voice in any usable
form for me.  Might just have to bite the bullet and set up my own PBX
and pay for a voip provider and port my google voice number over to it.
 I'd hate to lose the number; I've used it since Grand Central times.

And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me.  I don't want to use
hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine.  But alas that's
disappearing.

And the list goes on.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 07:09:41 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:09:41 +0000
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <529D313F.6040104@gmail.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org> <529D313F.6040104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7khlq$q6q$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 03/12/2013 01:17, Michael Torrie wrote:
>
> And the list goes on.
>

The love of money...

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  2 20:43:03 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:43:03 -0500
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things.  Seems like they bye up a
> lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
> apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
> the unwashed masses.  And add "social" to it.  Great for their bottom
> line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.

And this is surprising, why?


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 21:27:42 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 18:27:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4>
 <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com> <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <9b6e5315-eefa-466e-9774-5bf071618604@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:13:03 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  Michael Torrie  wrote:
> > I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things.  Seems like they bye up a
> > lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
> > apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
> > the unwashed masses.  And add "social" to it.  Great for their bottom
> > line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.
> And this is surprising, why?

Something floating around here (was it Ben Finney's footer??) went
something like: 

We must expect it; else we would be surprised

Put differently: One evidence of being awake (and not in dreamland) is 
surprise

A directly related piece by Nicholas Carr
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/

Relevant at a deeper level is his "IT doesn't matter"
http://www.roughtype.com/?p=644

We software professionals cannot agree with this and keep our self-respect/sanity/identity. However its true; so denial remains the
only option.


From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 22:09:02 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:09:02 -0700
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <529D4B4E.9040303@gmail.com>

On 12/02/2013 06:43 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things.  Seems like they bye up a
>> lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
>> apps that do less and do it poorly, but in a slick way that appeals to
>> the unwashed masses.  And add "social" to it.  Great for their bottom
>> line, but horrible for those of us that actually use things as tools.
> 
> And this is surprising, why?

Well back when Google was a young hip company they billed themselves as
a bunch of nerds making stuff for nerds.  But yes we should have seen
this coming.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 22:26:31 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 19:26:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3497.1386040187.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4>
 <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com> <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F8FBCC.20430302122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3497.1386040187.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <89c02bb6-1a10-4567-8e8d-f6089430558a@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 8:39:02 AM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 06:43 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> > And this is surprising, why?
>
> Well back when Google was a young hip company they billed themselves as
> a bunch of nerds making stuff for nerds.  But yes we should have seen
> this coming.

So were Bill Gates and Jobs -- nerdy youths.
We tend to not think them so because they are an earlier generation.


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec  2 23:27:07 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:27:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7jmir$2b4$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-03, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 06:03 AM, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> I wish they'd never bought dejanews.
>
> I wish Google hadn't bought a lot of things.  Seems like they bye up a
> lot of cool, nerd-centric apps and companies and then turned them into
> apps that do less and do it poorly,

Or they just shut them down.  I still wish SageTv was in business. My
SageTv stuff is still running fine, but I don't know what I'm going to
do when it dies.  I guess I'll have to go back to Mytv and the
associated huge, loud, noisy front-end boxes.

That said, I'm still pretty happy with Gmail (I use it mostly via
mutt/IMAP rather than the WebUI), and it sure beats the e-mail service
I paid for in the past [it's certainly _way_ better than the Outlook
server they run at work].  The Google search engine still works fine
for me, and my Nexus Galaxy phone has been great.

-- 
Grant



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 02:01:59 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 18:01:59 +1100
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7jmir$2b4$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7jmir$2b4$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqrwbvqYbOS-=eF=ybYgYV2512Y9rjtJCQaVVh6z3AesA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 3:27 PM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> That said, I'm still pretty happy with Gmail (I use it mostly via
> mutt/IMAP rather than the WebUI), and it sure beats the e-mail service
> I paid for in the past [it's certainly _way_ better than the Outlook
> server they run at work].  The Google search engine still works fine
> for me, and my Nexus Galaxy phone has been great.

Things Google does well are those that take advantage of the corpus of
searchable data - like Translate. I wouldn't bother with any other
online translation tool than Google Translate.

ChrisA


From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 01:30:05 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:30:05 +1000
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7jtpg$v0d$1@dont-email.me>

On 3/12/2013 11:17 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me.  I don't want to use
> hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine.  But alas that's
> disappearing.

I really hate Hangouts. If I wanted to use Skype I would be using Skype.

I'm also still unable to understand why Google scrapped Reader and kept 
Groups, although I suspect it's because the latter will eventually 
integrate more closely with Plus & Hangouts.



From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec  3 02:13:16 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 03 Dec 2013 07:13:16 GMT
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7jtpg$v0d$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <529d848b$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:30:05 +1000, alex23 wrote:

> On 3/12/2013 11:17 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> And Gmail is also becoming less useful to me.  I don't want to use
>> hangouts; xmpp and google talk worked just fine.  But alas that's
>> disappearing.
> 
> I really hate Hangouts. If I wanted to use Skype I would be using Skype.
> 
> I'm also still unable to understand why Google scrapped Reader and kept
> Groups, although I suspect it's because the latter will eventually
> integrate more closely with Plus & Hangouts.


Not aimed specifically at either Michael or Alex, but a general 
observation aimed at you all.

You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control of the 
tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives are not your 
incentives.

I mean, Microsoft was bad enough, but they could never reach through the 
aether into your computer and remove software they no longer wanted you 
to use. The worst that could happen was that they would stop supporting 
it and you'd be stuck with old obsolete hardware running old obsolete 
software that nevertheless did exactly what you want. Google, on the 
other hand, can and will take away software that you use.


-- 
Steven


From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 19:23:43 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:23:43 +1000
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <529d848b$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>	<mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>	<e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>	<mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>	<834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>	<mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>	<RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4>
 <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>	<l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>	<mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>	<l7jtpg$v0d$1@dont-email.me>
 <529d848b$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l7lsmg$9h0$1@dont-email.me>

On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control of the
> tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives are not your
> incentives.

To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to purchase 
convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(



From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Dec  4 09:34:41 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:34:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7jtpg$v0d$1@dont-email.me> <529d848b$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <l7lsmg$9h0$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l7nei0$422$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-04, alex23 <wuwei23 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control
>> of the tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives
>> are not your incentives.
>
> To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to
> purchase convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(

But Franklin's quote doesn't apply when free alternatives exist.
I can use a non-open email system until I don't want to any more,
and switch out when it no longer please me.

The cost of switching isn't zero, but it's much easier than
emmigrating from a police state.

Moreover, I'll always feel that I deserve more than I actually
do deserve.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 10:21:29 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:21:29 +0000
Subject: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7nei0$422$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <l7i0fo$t60$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3495.1386033531.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7jtpg$v0d$1@dont-email.me> <529d848b$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <l7lsmg$9h0$1@dont-email.me> <l7nei0$422$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7nh9i$iq9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 14:34, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-04, alex23 <wuwei23 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 3/12/2013 5:13 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> You poor fools you, this is what happens when you give control
>>> of the tools you use to a (near) monopolist whose incentives
>>> are not your incentives.
>>
>> To paraphrase Franklin: those who would give up control to
>> purchase convenience deserve neither. A lesson hard learned :(
>
> But Franklin's quote doesn't apply when free alternatives exist.

Free at the point of delivery, someone, somewhere, has given blood, 
toil, tears and sweat.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  2 08:29:47 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 08:29:47 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:

> On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
> >  Alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >> Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
> >> with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
> >> double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
> >> would not want to upset them would we? )
> >
> > It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups.  Or,
> > at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
> > newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
> > newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.
> >
> > The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
> > site, which it does just fine.  Making it behave better with
> > newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
> > to do so.
> 
> The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
> people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
> The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.

If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use usenet 
groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you don't understand 
the scale on which Google operates.


From neilc at norwich.edu  Mon Dec  2 09:04:33 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:04:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7i41g$2cv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-02, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-11-28, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> > In article <RCJlu.5$rx5.0 at fx05.am4>,
>> >  Alister <alister.ware at ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >> Perhaps the best option is for everybody to bombard Google
>> >> with bug reports (preferably typed with extra long lines &
>> >> double spaced as that is clearly what they are used to & we
>> >> would not want to upset them would we? )
>> >
>> > It's pretty clear Google doesn't care about Google Groups.  Or,
>> > at least, they don't care that it interacts badly with
>> > newsgroups, and in particular with bidirectional
>> > newsgroup/mailing-list gateways.
>> >
>> > The purpose of Google Groups is to generate traffic to their
>> > site, which it does just fine.  Making it behave better with
>> > newsgroups won't change that, so there's no incentive for them
>> > to do so.
>> 
>> The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
>> people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
>> The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.
>
> If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use
> usenet groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you
> don't understand the scale on which Google operates.

It's probably hard to even visualize.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 12:11:01 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:11:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3462.1385993100.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3462.1385993100.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <695ec03f-b066-4b72-b1c8-a1b18c5e835b@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 2, 2013 7:34:33 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-02, Roy Smith  wrote:
> >> The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
> >> people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
> >> The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.
> >
> > If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use
> > usenet groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you
> > don't understand the scale on which Google operates.
>
> It's probably hard to even visualize.

I was dreaming about in an alternate surreal world?
And now you guys have crashed me back to planet-earth-2013

   !MEAN!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 12:48:25 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:48:25 +0000
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <695ec03f-b066-4b72-b1c8-a1b18c5e835b@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3462.1385993100.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <695ec03f-b066-4b72-b1c8-a1b18c5e835b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7ih4v$q4k$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 17:11, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 2, 2013 7:34:33 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> On 2013-12-02, Roy Smith  wrote:
>>>> The current situation does force a lot of technology-focused
>>>> people, progammers in particular, into a low opinion of Google.
>>>> The crappy usenet portal is poor marketing.
>>>
>>> If you think, "The set of people who are still trying to use
>>> usenet groups for anything serious" is a lot of people, you
>>> don't understand the scale on which Google operates.
>>
>> It's probably hard to even visualize.
>
> I was dreaming about in an alternate surreal world?
> And now you guys have crashed me back to planet-earth-2013
>
>     !MEAN!
>

?As this is an international group why not ?MEAN!? :)

Quickly runs off to hide...

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 12:54:36 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:54:36 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <l7ih4v$q4k$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3462.1385993100.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <695ec03f-b066-4b72-b1c8-a1b18c5e835b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7ih4v$q4k$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoJd4DS7Ei7fWDj+swgdU_U4YKfJzwVG8+OgF2EyZD=oA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:48 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> ?As this is an international group why not ?MEAN!? :)

?Does punctuation nest to any level when you ask, ?Shouldn't it be ?MEAN!??

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 13:07:27 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 18:07:27 +0000
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoJd4DS7Ei7fWDj+swgdU_U4YKfJzwVG8+OgF2EyZD=oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3353.1385647097.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2c6bd46-2740-4a1d-9910-d6041e613d27@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3356.1385648754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <834d2e9d-2fb2-4401-82fe-dbe161d6d362@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3357.1385651301.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <RCJlu.5$rx5.0@fx05.am4> <roy-6DB21F.11434428112013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3461.1385989809.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F10A35.08294702122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3462.1385993100.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <695ec03f-b066-4b72-b1c8-a1b18c5e835b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7ih4v$q4k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoJd4DS7Ei7fWDj+swgdU_U4YKfJzwVG8+OgF2EyZD=oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7ii8l$6n3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 17:54, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:48 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> ?As this is an international group why not ?MEAN!? :)
>
> ?Does punctuation nest to any level when you ask, ?Shouldn't it be ?MEAN!??
>
> ChrisA
>

Yes.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From rsk at gsp.org  Wed Dec  4 09:52:23 2013
From: rsk at gsp.org (Rich Kulawiec)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:52:23 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131204145223.GA7205@gsp.org>


(comments from a lurker on python-list)

- Google "groups" is a disaster.  It's extremely poorly-run, and is in
fact a disservice to Usenet -- which is alive and well, tyvm, and still used
by many of the most senior and experienced people on the Internet.  (While
some newsgroups are languishing and some have almost no traffic, others
are thriving.  As it should be.)  I could catalog the litany of egregious
mistakes that Google has made, but what's the point?  They're clearly
uninterested in fixing them.  Their only interest is in slapping the
"Google" label on Usenet -- which is far more important in the evolution
of the Internet than Google will ever be -- so that they can use it
as a marketing vehicle.  Worse, Google has completely failed to control
outbound abuse from Google groups, which is why many consider it a
best practice to simply drop all Usenet traffic originating there.

- That said, there is value in bidirectionally gatewaying mailing lists
with corresponding Usenet newsgroups.  Usenet's propagation properties often
make it the medium of choice for many people, particularly those in areas
with slow, expensive, erratic, etc. connectivity.  Conversely, delivery
of Usenet traffic via email is a better solution for others.  Software
like Mailman facilitates this fairly well, even given the impedance
mismatch between SMTP and NNTP.

- Mailing lists/Usenet newsgroups remain, as they've been for a very
long time, the solutions of choice for online discussions.  Yes, I'm
aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them.  They suck.  They ALL
suck, they just all suck differently.  I could spend the next several
thousand lines explaining why, but instead I'll just abbreviate: they
don't handle threading, they don't let me use my editor of choice,
they don't let me build my own archive that I can search MY way including
when I'm offline, they are brittle and highly vulnerable to abuse
and security breaches, they encourage worst practices in writing
style (including top-posting and full-quoting), they translate poorly
to other formats, they are difficult to archive, they're even more
difficult to migrate (whereas Unix mbox format files from 30 years ago
are still perfectly usable today), they aren't standardized, they
aren't easily scalable, they're overly complex, they don't support
proper quoting, they don't support proper attribution, they can't
be easily forwarded, they...oh, it just goes on.   My point being that
there's a reason that the IETF and the W3C and NANOG and lots of other
groups that could use anything they want use mailing lists: they work.

- That said, they work *if configured properly*, which unfortunately
these days includes a hefty dose of anti-abuse controls.  This list
(for the most part) isn't particularly targeted, but it is occasionally
and in the spirit of trying to help out, I can assist with that. (I think
it's fair to say I have a little bit of email expertise.)  If any of
the list's owners are reading this and want help, please let me know.

- They also work well *if used properly*, which means that participants
should use proper email/news etiquette: line wrap, sane quoting style,
reasonable editing of followups, preservation of threads, all that stuff.
The more people do more of that, the smoother things work.  On the other
hand, if nobody does that, the result is impaired communication and
quite often, a chorus of "mailing lists suck" even though the problem
is not the mailing lists: it's the bad habits of the users on them.
(And of course changing mediums won't fix that.)

- To bring this back around to one of the starting points for this
discussion: I think the current setup is functioning well, even given
the sporadic stresses placed on it.  I think it would be best to invest
effort in maintaining/improving it as it stands (which is why I volunteered
to do so, see above) rather than migrating to something else.

---rsk


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 10:46:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 02:46:22 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <20131204145223.GA7205@gsp.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204145223.GA7205@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQo9+YX6hZpFy8dx7P4t9yzK3iW1CvRmZT1KC=btEXQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk at gsp.org> wrote:
> Mailing lists/Usenet newsgroups remain, as they've been for a very
> long time, the solutions of choice for online discussions.  Yes, I'm
> aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them.  They suck.  They ALL
> suck, they just all suck differently.

I absolutely agree. And Mailman lists are both easy and powerful -
I've deployed a number of them and subscribed to many MANY more - and
play nicely with other internet standards. Instead of having to
remember to check umpteen web-based forums, I just check my emails,
which I do constantly anyway. Adding another mailing list costs me
nothing; adding another forum costs me quite a bit of time.

Ultimately it comes down to this: It would take an enormous amount of
effort for something else to replicate the power of SMTP and/or NNTP,
ergo nothing has achieved that. The open standards mean there are
myriad clients available, and no new protocol or system can ever hope
to compete with that.

ChrisA


From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 11:31:12 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:31:12 -0800
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <20131204145223.GA7205@gsp.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204145223.GA7205@gsp.org>
Message-ID: <F2542E6C-511C-4AC7-8B1A-6F2B77339C05@gmail.com>


On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:52 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk at gsp.org> wrote:

> Yes, I'm
> aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them.  They suck.  They ALL
> suck, they just all suck differently.  I could spend the next several
> thousand lines explaining why, but instead I'll just abbreviate: they
> don't handle threading, they don't let me use my editor of choice,
> they don't let me build my own archive that I can search MY way including
> when I'm offline, they are brittle and highly vulnerable to abuse
> and security breaches, they encourage worst practices in writing
> style (including top-posting and full-quoting), they translate poorly
> to other formats, they are difficult to archive, they're even more
> difficult to migrate (whereas Unix mbox format files from 30 years ago
> are still perfectly usable today), they aren't standardized, they
> aren't easily scalable, they're overly complex, they don't support
> proper quoting, they don't support proper attribution, they can't
> be easily forwarded, they...oh, it just goes on.   My point being that
> there's a reason that the IETF and the W3C and NANOG and lots of other
> groups that could use anything they want use mailing lists: they work.

One of the best rants I?ve ever read. Full mental harmonic resonance while I read this. Hope you don?t mind, but I think I?ll be plagiarizing your comments in the future. Maybe I?ll post it on a couple of the web forums I currently have the luxury of regularly hating.

From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec  4 19:58:54 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:58:54 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Rich Kulawiec <rsk at gsp.org> wrote:

> Yes, I'm
> aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them.  They suck.  They ALL
> suck, they just all suck differently.  I could spend the next several
> thousand lines explaining why, but instead I'll just abbreviate: they
> don't handle threading, they don't let me use my editor of choice,
> they don't let me build my own archive that I can search MY way including
> when I'm offline, they are brittle and highly vulnerable to abuse
> and security breaches, they encourage worst practices in writing
> style (including top-posting and full-quoting), they translate poorly
> to other formats, they are difficult to archive, they're even more
> difficult to migrate (whereas Unix mbox format files from 30 years ago
> are still perfectly usable today), they aren't standardized, they
> aren't easily scalable, they're overly complex, they don't support
> proper quoting, they don't support proper attribution, they can't
> be easily forwarded, they...oh, it just goes on.  

The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and 
presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally 
designed to be a closed system.  Mail and usenet were both engineered to 
make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which meant it 
was possible to evolve each at their own pace.

Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client 
applications which interoperated with the existing system.  But, it also 
meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP 
gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet transport 
layer).


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 02:13:54 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:28:54 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  Rich Kulawiec wrote:

> > Yes, I'm
> > aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them.  They suck.  They ALL
> > suck, they just all suck differently.  I could spend the next several
> > thousand lines explaining why, but instead I'll just abbreviate: they
> > don't handle threading, they don't let me use my editor of choice,
> > they don't let me build my own archive that I can search MY way including
> > when I'm offline, they are brittle and highly vulnerable to abuse
> > and security breaches, they encourage worst practices in writing
> > style (including top-posting and full-quoting), they translate poorly
> > to other formats, they are difficult to archive, they're even more
> > difficult to migrate (whereas Unix mbox format files from 30 years ago
> > are still perfectly usable today), they aren't standardized, they
> > aren't easily scalable, they're overly complex, they don't support
> > proper quoting, they don't support proper attribution, they can't
> > be easily forwarded, they...oh, it just goes on.  

> The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and 
> presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally 
> designed to be a closed system.  Mail and usenet were both engineered to 
> make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which meant it 
> was possible to evolve each at their own pace.

> Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client 
> applications which interoperated with the existing system.  But, it also 
> meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP 
> gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet transport 
> layer).

There is a deep assumption hovering round-about the above -- what I
will call the 'Unix assumption(s)'.  But before that, just a check on
terminology. By 'presentation' you mean what people normally call
'mail-clients': thunderbird, mutt etc. And by 'transport' you mean
sendmail, exim, qmail etc etc -- what normally are called
'mail-servers.'  Right??

Assuming this is the intended meaning of the terminology (yeah its
clearer terminology than the usual and yeah Im also a 'Unix-guy'),
here's the 'Unix-assumption':

  - human communication?
(is not very different from)
  - machine communication?
(can be done by)
  - text?
(for which)
  - ASCII is fine?
(which is just)
  - bytes?
(inside/between byte-memory-organized)
  - von Neumann computers

To the extent that these assumptions are invalid, the 'opaque-blob'
may well be preferable.


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 02:36:30 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 02:36:30 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>

In article <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:28:54 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:

> > The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and 
> > presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally 
> > designed to be a closed system.  Mail and usenet were both engineered to 
> > make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which meant it 
> > was possible to evolve each at their own pace.
> 
> > Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client 
> > applications which interoperated with the existing system.  But, it also 
> > meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP 
> > gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet transport 
> > layer).
> 
> There is a deep assumption hovering round-about the above -- what I
> will call the 'Unix assumption(s)'.

It has nothing to do with Unix.  The separation of transport from 
presentation is just as valid on Windows, Mac, etc.

> But before that, just a check on
> terminology. By 'presentation' you mean what people normally call
> 'mail-clients': thunderbird, mutt etc. And by 'transport' you mean
> sendmail, exim, qmail etc etc -- what normally are called
> 'mail-servers.'  Right??

Yes.

> Assuming this is the intended meaning of the terminology (yeah its
> clearer terminology than the usual and yeah Im also a 'Unix-guy'),
> here's the 'Unix-assumption':
> 
>   - human communication?
> (is not very different from)
>   - machine communication?
> (can be done by)
>   - text?
> (for which)
>   - ASCII is fine?
> (which is just)
>   - bytes?
> (inside/between byte-memory-organized)
>   - von Neumann computers
> 
> To the extent that these assumptions are invalid, the 'opaque-blob'
> may well be preferable.

I think you're off on the wrong track here.  This has nothing to do with 
plain text (ascii or otherwise).  It has to do with divorcing how you 
store and transport messages (be they plain text, HTML, or whatever) 
from how a user interacts with them.

Take something like Wikipedia (by which, I really mean, MediaWiki, which 
is the underlying software package).  Most people think of Wikipedia as 
a web site.  But, there's another layer below that which lets you get 
access to the contents of articles, navigate all the rich connections 
like category trees, and all sorts of metadata like edit histories.  
Which means, if I wanted to (and many examples of this exist), I can 
write my own client which presents the same information in different 
ways.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 08:03:57 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 05:03:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 1:06:30 PM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  Rusi  wrote:

> > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:28:54 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:

> > > The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and 
> > > presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally 
> > > designed to be a closed system.  Mail and usenet were both engineered to 
> > > make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which meant it 
> > > was possible to evolve each at their own pace.
> > > Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client 
> > > applications which interoperated with the existing system.  But, it also 
> > > meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP 
> > > gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet transport 
> > > layer).
> > There is a deep assumption hovering round-about the above -- what I
> > will call the 'Unix assumption(s)'.

> It has nothing to do with Unix.  The separation of transport from 
> presentation is just as valid on Windows, Mac, etc.

> > But before that, just a check on
> > terminology. By 'presentation' you mean what people normally call
> > 'mail-clients': thunderbird, mutt etc. And by 'transport' you mean
> > sendmail, exim, qmail etc etc -- what normally are called
> > 'mail-servers.'  Right??

> Yes.

> > Assuming this is the intended meaning of the terminology (yeah its
> > clearer terminology than the usual and yeah Im also a 'Unix-guy'),
> > here's the 'Unix-assumption':
> >   - human communication?
> > (is not very different from)
> >   - machine communication?
> > (can be done by)
> >   - text?
> > (for which)
> >   - ASCII is fine?
> > (which is just)
> >   - bytes?
> > (inside/between byte-memory-organized)
> >   - von Neumann computers
> > To the extent that these assumptions are invalid, the 'opaque-blob'
> > may well be preferable.

> I think you're off on the wrong track here.  This has nothing to do with 
> plain text (ascii or otherwise).  It has to do with divorcing how you 
> store and transport messages (be they plain text, HTML, or whatever) 
> from how a user interacts with them.


Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:

"unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"

I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:

  - human communication?
(is not very different from)
  - machine communication? 

Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became
the replacement character FFFD

> >   - human communication?
> > (is not very different from)
> >   - machine communication?

Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII"
were to uniformly hold.

Of course with unicode also this can be made to not happen, but that
is fragile and error-prone.  And that is because ASCII (not extended)
is ONE thing in a way that unicode is hopelessly a motley inconsistent
variety.

With unicode there are in-memory formats, transportation formats eg
UTF-8, strange beasties like FSR (which then hopelessly and
inveterately tickle our resident trolls!) multi-layer encodings (in
html), BOMS and unnecessary/inconsistent BOMS (in microsoft-notepad).
With ASCII, ASCII is ASCII; ie "ABC" is 65,66,67 whether its in-core,
in-file, in-pipe or whatever.  Ok there are a few wrinkles to this
eg. the null-terminator in C-strings. I think this is the exception to
the rule that in classic Unix, ASCII is completely inter-operable and
therefore a universal data-structure for inter-process or inter-machine
communication.

It is this universal data structure that makes classic unix pipes and
filters possible and easy (of which your separation of presentation
and transportation is just one case).

Give it up and the composability goes with it.

Go up from the ASCII -> Unicode level to the plain-text -> hypertext
(aka html) level and these composability problems hit with redoubled
force.

> Take something like Wikipedia (by which, I really mean, MediaWiki, which 
> is the underlying software package).  Most people think of Wikipedia as 
> a web site.  But, there's another layer below that which lets you get 
> access to the contents of articles, navigate all the rich connections 
> like category trees, and all sorts of metadata like edit histories.  
> Which means, if I wanted to (and many examples of this exist), I can 
> write my own client which presents the same information in different 
> ways.

Not sure whats your point.
Html is a universal data-structuring format -- ok for presentation, bad for
data-structuring
SQL databases (assuming thats the mediawiki backend) is another -- ok for 
data-structuring bad for presentation.

Mediawiki mediates between the two formats.

Beyond that I lost you... what are you trying to say??


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 08:19:04 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 00:19:04 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmodJZk_YMSZ9qGs3T7HMT=mv0ernvjWDJGUAA3ddRd1QA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:03 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> SQL databases (assuming thats the mediawiki backend) is another -- ok for
> data-structuring bad for presentation.

No, SQL databases don't store structured text. MediaWiki just stores a
single blob (not in the database sense of that word) of text.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 08:32:35 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 05:32:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3645.1386335953.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3645.1386335953.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10982d24-d47c-4a99-a93a-360fbe6b52ed@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 6:49:04 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:03 AM, rusi wrote:
> > SQL databases (assuming thats the mediawiki backend) is another -- ok for
> > data-structuring bad for presentation.

> No, SQL databases don't store structured text. MediaWiki just stores a
> single blob (not in the database sense of that word) of text.

I guess we are using 'structured' in different ways.  All I am saying
is that mediawiki which seems to present as html, actually stores its
stuff as SQL -- nothing more or less structured than the schemas here:
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:MediaWiki_architecture#Database_and_text_storage


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 08:48:19 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 00:48:19 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <10982d24-d47c-4a99-a93a-360fbe6b52ed@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3645.1386335953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <10982d24-d47c-4a99-a93a-360fbe6b52ed@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmphVNSxb8K4Sr_q1-YxU=a9tkvdK-wyzkmDhWakwOLNug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess we are using 'structured' in different ways.  All I am saying
> is that mediawiki which seems to present as html, actually stores its
> stuff as SQL -- nothing more or less structured than the schemas here:
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:MediaWiki_architecture#Database_and_text_storage

Yeah, but the structure is all about the metadata. Ultimately, there's
one single text field containing the entire content as you would see
it in the page editor: wiki markup in straight text. MediaWiki uses an
SQL database to store that lump of text, but ultimately the
relationship is between wikitext and HTML, no SQL involvement.

Wiki markup is reasonable for text structuring. (Not for generic data
structuring, but it's decent for text.) Same with reStructuredText,
used for PEPs. An SQL database is a good way to store mappings of
"this key, this tuple of data" and retrieve them conveniently,
including (and this is the bit that's more complicated in a straight
Python dictionary) using any value out of the tuple as the key, and
(and this is where a dict *really* can't hack it) storing/retrieving
more data than fits in memory. The two are orthogonal. Your point is
better supported by wikitext than by SQL, here, except that there
aren't fifty other systems that parse and display wikitext. In fact,
what you're suggesting is a good argument for deprecating HTML email
in favour of RST email, and using docutils to render the result either
as HTML (for webmail users) or as some other format. And I wouldn't be
against that :) But good luck convincing the world that Microsoft
Outlook is doing the wrong thing.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 09:11:23 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 06:11:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3646.1386337709.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3645.1386335953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <10982d24-d47c-4a99-a93a-360fbe6b52ed@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3646.1386337709.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fd3cf10d-f0a1-4693-b534-6d65a262a9ec@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 7:18:19 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:32 AM, rusi  wrote:
> > I guess we are using 'structured' in different ways.  All I am saying
> > is that mediawiki which seems to present as html, actually stores its
> > stuff as SQL -- nothing more or less structured than the schemas here:
> > http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:MediaWiki_architecture#Database_and_text_storage

> Yeah, but the structure is all about the metadata.

Ok (I'd drop the 'all')

> Ultimately, there's one single text field containing the entire content

Right

> as you would see it in the page editor: wiki markup in straight text.

Aha! There you are! Its 'page editor' here and not the html which
'display source' (control-u) which a browser would show. And wikimedia
is the software that mediates.

The usual direction (seen by users of wikipedia) is that wikimedia
takes this text, along with the other unrelated (metadata?) seen
around -- sidebar, tabs etc, css settings and munges it all into html

The other direction (seen by editors of wikipedia) is that you edit a
page and that page and history etc will show the changes,
reflecting the fact that the SQL content has changed.

> MediaWiki uses an SQL database to store that lump of text, but
> ultimately the relationship is between wikitext and HTML, no SQL
> involvement.


Dunno what you mean. Every time someone browses wikipedia, things are
getting pulled out of the SQL and munged into the html (s)he sees.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 09:51:13 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 01:51:13 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <fd3cf10d-f0a1-4693-b534-6d65a262a9ec@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3645.1386335953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <10982d24-d47c-4a99-a93a-360fbe6b52ed@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3646.1386337709.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fd3cf10d-f0a1-4693-b534-6d65a262a9ec@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr_CtF3nrtU85V-ywcbH_c6AROPqbwY-vfNq6e6nA6agw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:11 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> Aha! There you are! Its 'page editor' here and not the html which
> 'display source' (control-u) which a browser would show. And wikimedia
> is the software that mediates.
>
> The usual direction (seen by users of wikipedia) is that wikimedia
> takes this text, along with the other unrelated (metadata?) seen
> around -- sidebar, tabs etc, css settings and munges it all into html
>
> The other direction (seen by editors of wikipedia) is that you edit a
> page and that page and history etc will show the changes,
> reflecting the fact that the SQL content has changed.

MediaWiki is fundamentally very similar to a structure that I'm trying
to deploy for a community web site that I host, approximately thus:

* A git repository stores a bunch of RST files
* A script auto-generates index files based on the presence of certain
file names, and renders via rst2html
* The HTML pages are served as static content

MediaWiki is like this:

* Each page has a history, represented by a series of state snapshots
of wikitext
* On display, the wikitext is converted to HTML and served.

The main difference is that MediaWiki is optimized for rapid and
constant editing, where what I'm pushing for is optimized for less
common edits that might span multiple files. (MW has no facility for
atomically changing multiple pages, and atomically reverting those
changes, and so on. Each page stands alone.) They're still broadly
doing the same thing: storing marked-up text and rendering HTML. The
fact that one uses an SQL database and the other uses a git repository
is actually quite insignificant - it's as significant as the choice of
whether to store your data on a hard disk or an SSD. The system is no
different.

>> MediaWiki uses an SQL database to store that lump of text, but
>> ultimately the relationship is between wikitext and HTML, no SQL
>> involvement.
>
> Dunno what you mean. Every time someone browses wikipedia, things are
> getting pulled out of the SQL and munged into the html (s)he sees.

Yes, but that's just mechanics. The fact that the PHP scripts to
operate Wikipedia are being pulled off a file system doesn't mean that
MediaWiki is an ext3-to-HTML renderer. It's a wikitext-to-HTML
renderer.

Anyway. As I said, your point is still mostly there, as long as you
use wikitext rather than SQL.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec  6 14:00:18 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 06 Dec 2013 19:00:18 GMT
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 05:03:57 -0800, rusi wrote:

> Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
> illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:
> 
> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"

Ironically, your post was not Unicode.

Seriously. I am 100% serious.

Your post was sent using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as 
CP-1252, which is most certainly *not* Unicode. Whatever software you 
used to send the message correctly flagged it with a charset header:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Alas, the software Roy Smith uses, MT-NewsWatcher, does not handle 
encodings correctly (or at all!), it screws up the encoding then sends a 
reply with no charset line at all. This is one bug that cannot be blamed 
on Google Groups -- or on Unicode.


> I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:

Actually you didn't. You wrote a number of ellipsis characters, hex byte 
\x85 (decimal 133), in the CP1252 charset. That happens to be mapped to 
code point U+2026 in Unicode, but the two are as distinct as ASCII and 
EBCDIC.


> Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became the
> replacement character FFFD

Yes, it appears that MT-NewsWatcher is *deeply, deeply* confused about 
encodings and character sets. It doesn't just assume things are ASCII, 
but makes a half-hearted attempt to be charset-aware, but badly. I can 
only imagine that it was written back in the Dark Ages where there were a 
lot of different charsets in use but no conventions for specifying which 
charset was in use. Or perhaps the author was smoking crack while coding.


> Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII" were
> to uniformly hold.

This is incorrect. People forget that ASCII has evolved since the first 
version of the standard in 1963. There have actually been five versions 
of the ASCII standard, plus one unpublished version. (And that's not 
including the things which are frequently called ASCII but aren't.)

ASCII-1963 didn't even include lowercase letters. It is also missing some 
graphic characters like braces, and included at least two characters no 
longer used, the up-arrow and left-arrow. The control characters were 
also significantly different from today.

ASCII-1965 was unpublished and unused. I don't know the details of what 
it changed.

ASCII-1967 is a lot closer to the ASCII in use today. It made 
considerable changes to the control characters, moving, adding, removing, 
or renaming at least half a dozen control characters. It officially added 
lowercase letters, braces, and some others. It replaced the up-arrow 
character with the caret and the left-arrow with the underscore. It was 
ambiguous, allowing variations and substitutions, e.g.:

    - character 33 was permitted to be either the exclamation 
      mark ! or the logical OR symbol |

    - consequently character 124 (vertical bar) was always 
      displayed as a broken bar ?, which explains why even today
      many keyboards show it that way

    - character 35 was permitted to be either the number sign # or 
      the pound sign ?

    - character 94 could be either a caret ^ or a logical NOT ?

Even the humble comma could be pressed into service as a cedilla.

ASCII-1968 didn't change any characters, but allowed the use of LF on its 
own. Previously, you had to use either LF/CR or CR/LF as newline.

ASCII-1977 removed the ambiguities from the 1967 standard.

The most recent version is ASCII-1986 (also known as ANSI X3.4-1986). 
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out what changes were made -- I 
presume they were minor, and didn't affect the character set.

So as you can see, even with actual ASCII, you can have mojibake. It's 
just not normally called that. But if you are given an arbitrary ASCII 
file of unknown age, containing code 94, how can you be sure it was 
intended as a caret rather than a logical NOT symbol? You can't.

Then there are at least 30 official variations of ASCII, strictly 
speaking part of ISO-646. These 7-bit codes were commonly called "ASCII" 
by their users, despite the differences, e.g. replacing the dollar sign $ 
with the international currency sign ?, or replacing the left brace 
{ with the letter s with caron ?.

One consequence of this is that the MIME type for ASCII text is called 
"US ASCII", despite the redundancy, because many people expect "ASCII" 
alone to mean whatever national variation they are used to.

But it gets worse: there are proprietary variations on ASCII which are 
commonly called "ASCII" but aren't, including dozens of 8-bit so-called 
"extended ASCII" character sets, which is where the problems *really* 
pile up. Invariably back in the 1980s and early 1990s people used to call 
these "ASCII" no matter that they used 8-bits and contained anything up 
to 256 characters.

Just because somebody calls something "ASCII", doesn't make it so; even 
if it is ASCII, doesn't mean you know which version of ASCII; even if you 
know which version, doesn't mean you know how to interpret certain codes. 
It simply is *wrong* to think that "good ol' plain ASCII text" is 
unambiguous and devoid of problems.


> With unicode there are in-memory formats, transportation formats eg
> UTF-8, 

And the same applies to ASCII. 

ASCII is a *seven-bit code*. It will work fine on computers where the 
word-size is seven bits. If the word-size is eight bits, or more, you 
have to pad the ASCII code. How do you do that? Pad the most-significant 
end or the least significant end? That's a choice there. How do you pad 
it, with a zero or a one? That's another choice. If your word-size is 
more than eight bits, you might even pad *both* ends.

In C, a char is defined as the smallest addressable unit of the machine 
that can contain basic character set, not necessarily eight bits. 
Implementations of C and C++ sometimes reserve 8, 9, 16, 32, or 36 bits 
as a "byte" and/or char. Your in-memory representation of ASCII "a" could 
easily end up as bits 001100001 or 0000000001100001.

And then there is the question of whether ASCII characters should be Big 
Endian or Little Endian. I'm referring here to bit endianness, rather 
than bytes: should character 'a' be represented as bits 1100001 (most 
significant bit to the left) or 1000011 (least significant bit to the 
left)? This may be relevant with certain networking protocols. Not all 
networking protocols are big-endian, nor are all processors. The Ada 
programming language even supports both bit orders.

When transmitting ASCII characters, the networking protocol could include 
various start and stop bits and parity codes. A single 7-bit ASCII 
character might be anything up to 12 bits in length on the wire. It is 
simply naive to imagine that the transmission of ASCII codes is the same 
as the in-memory or on-disk storage of ASCII.

You're lucky to be active in a time when most common processors have 
standardized on a single bit-order, and when most (but not all) network 
protocols have done the same. But that doesn't mean that these issues 
don't exist for ASCII. If you get a message that purports to be ASCII 
text but looks like this:

"\tS\x1b\x1b{\x01u{'\x1b\x13!"

you should suspect strongly that it is "Hello World!" which has been 
accidentally bit-reversed by some rogue piece of hardware.


-- 
Steven


From gheskett at wdtv.com  Fri Dec  6 14:34:54 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 14:34:54 -0500
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <201312061434.54512.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Friday 06 December 2013 14:30:06 Steven D'Aprano did opine:

> On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 05:03:57 -0800, rusi wrote:
> > Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
> > illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:
> > 
> > "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to
> > be"
> 
> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.
> 
> Seriously. I am 100% serious.
> 
> Your post was sent using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as
> CP-1252, which is most certainly *not* Unicode. Whatever software you
> used to send the message correctly flagged it with a charset header:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> 
> Alas, the software Roy Smith uses, MT-NewsWatcher, does not handle
> encodings correctly (or at all!), it screws up the encoding then sends a
> reply with no charset line at all. This is one bug that cannot be blamed
> on Google Groups -- or on Unicode.
> 
> > I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:
> Actually you didn't. You wrote a number of ellipsis characters, hex byte
> \x85 (decimal 133), in the CP1252 charset. That happens to be mapped to
> code point U+2026 in Unicode, but the two are as distinct as ASCII and
> EBCDIC.
> 
> > Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became
> > the replacement character FFFD
> 
> Yes, it appears that MT-NewsWatcher is *deeply, deeply* confused about
> encodings and character sets. It doesn't just assume things are ASCII,
> but makes a half-hearted attempt to be charset-aware, but badly. I can
> only imagine that it was written back in the Dark Ages where there were
> a lot of different charsets in use but no conventions for specifying
> which charset was in use. Or perhaps the author was smoking crack while
> coding.
> 
> > Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> > this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII"
> > were to uniformly hold.
> 
> This is incorrect. People forget that ASCII has evolved since the first
> version of the standard in 1963. There have actually been five versions
> of the ASCII standard, plus one unpublished version. (And that's not
> including the things which are frequently called ASCII but aren't.)
> 
> ASCII-1963 didn't even include lowercase letters. It is also missing
> some graphic characters like braces, and included at least two
> characters no longer used, the up-arrow and left-arrow. The control
> characters were also significantly different from today.
> 
> ASCII-1965 was unpublished and unused. I don't know the details of what
> it changed.
> 
> ASCII-1967 is a lot closer to the ASCII in use today. It made
> considerable changes to the control characters, moving, adding,
> removing, or renaming at least half a dozen control characters. It
> officially added lowercase letters, braces, and some others. It
> replaced the up-arrow character with the caret and the left-arrow with
> the underscore. It was ambiguous, allowing variations and
> substitutions, e.g.:
> 
>     - character 33 was permitted to be either the exclamation
>       mark ! or the logical OR symbol |
> 
>     - consequently character 124 (vertical bar) was always
>       displayed as a broken bar ??, which explains why even today
>       many keyboards show it that way
> 
>     - character 35 was permitted to be either the number sign # or
>       the pound sign ??
> 
>     - character 94 could be either a caret ^ or a logical NOT ??
> 
> Even the humble comma could be pressed into service as a cedilla.
> 
> ASCII-1968 didn't change any characters, but allowed the use of LF on
> its own. Previously, you had to use either LF/CR or CR/LF as newline.
> 
> ASCII-1977 removed the ambiguities from the 1967 standard.
> 
> The most recent version is ASCII-1986 (also known as ANSI X3.4-1986).
> Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out what changes were made --
> I presume they were minor, and didn't affect the character set.
> 
> So as you can see, even with actual ASCII, you can have mojibake. It's
> just not normally called that. But if you are given an arbitrary ASCII
> file of unknown age, containing code 94, how can you be sure it was
> intended as a caret rather than a logical NOT symbol? You can't.
> 
> Then there are at least 30 official variations of ASCII, strictly
> speaking part of ISO-646. These 7-bit codes were commonly called "ASCII"
> by their users, despite the differences, e.g. replacing the dollar sign
> $ with the international currency sign ??, or replacing the left brace
> { with the letter s with caron ??.
> 
> One consequence of this is that the MIME type for ASCII text is called
> "US ASCII", despite the redundancy, because many people expect "ASCII"
> alone to mean whatever national variation they are used to.
> 
> But it gets worse: there are proprietary variations on ASCII which are
> commonly called "ASCII" but aren't, including dozens of 8-bit so-called
> "extended ASCII" character sets, which is where the problems *really*
> pile up. Invariably back in the 1980s and early 1990s people used to
> call these "ASCII" no matter that they used 8-bits and contained
> anything up to 256 characters.
> 
> Just because somebody calls something "ASCII", doesn't make it so; even
> if it is ASCII, doesn't mean you know which version of ASCII; even if
> you know which version, doesn't mean you know how to interpret certain
> codes. It simply is *wrong* to think that "good ol' plain ASCII text"
> is unambiguous and devoid of problems.
> 
> > With unicode there are in-memory formats, transportation formats eg
> > UTF-8,
> 
> And the same applies to ASCII.
> 
> ASCII is a *seven-bit code*. It will work fine on computers where the
> word-size is seven bits. If the word-size is eight bits, or more, you
> have to pad the ASCII code. How do you do that? Pad the most-significant
> end or the least significant end? That's a choice there. How do you pad
> it, with a zero or a one? That's another choice. If your word-size is
> more than eight bits, you might even pad *both* ends.
> 
> In C, a char is defined as the smallest addressable unit of the machine
> that can contain basic character set, not necessarily eight bits.
> Implementations of C and C++ sometimes reserve 8, 9, 16, 32, or 36 bits
> as a "byte" and/or char. Your in-memory representation of ASCII "a"
> could easily end up as bits 001100001 or 0000000001100001.
> 
> And then there is the question of whether ASCII characters should be Big
> Endian or Little Endian. I'm referring here to bit endianness, rather
> than bytes: should character 'a' be represented as bits 1100001 (most
> significant bit to the left) or 1000011 (least significant bit to the
> left)? This may be relevant with certain networking protocols. Not all
> networking protocols are big-endian, nor are all processors. The Ada
> programming language even supports both bit orders.
> 
> When transmitting ASCII characters, the networking protocol could
> include various start and stop bits and parity codes. A single 7-bit
> ASCII character might be anything up to 12 bits in length on the wire.
> It is simply naive to imagine that the transmission of ASCII codes is
> the same as the in-memory or on-disk storage of ASCII.
> 
> You're lucky to be active in a time when most common processors have
> standardized on a single bit-order, and when most (but not all) network
> protocols have done the same. But that doesn't mean that these issues
> don't exist for ASCII. If you get a message that purports to be ASCII
> text but looks like this:
> 
> "\tS\x1b\x1b{\x01u{'\x1b\x13!"
> 
> you should suspect strongly that it is "Hello World!" which has been
> accidentally bit-reversed by some rogue piece of hardware.

You can lay a lot of the ASCII ambiguity on D.E.C. and their vt series 
terminals, anything newer than a vt100 made liberal use of the msbit in a 
character.  Having written an emulator for the vt-220, I can testify that 
really getting it right, was a right pain in the ass.  And then I added 
zmodem triggers and detections.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Mother Earth is not flat!
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 15:54:03 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:54:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20131206T211405-856@post.gmane.org>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python <at> pearwood.info> writes:

> Yes, it appears that MT-NewsWatcher is *deeply, deeply* confused about 
> encodings and character sets. It doesn't just assume things are ASCII, 
> but makes a half-hearted attempt to be charset-aware, but badly. I can 
> only imagine that it was written back in the Dark Ages

Indeed.  The basic codebase probably goes back 20 years.  I'm posting this
from gmane, just so people don't think I'm a total luddite.

> When transmitting ASCII characters, the networking protocol could include 
> various start and stop bits and parity codes. A single 7-bit ASCII 
> character might be anything up to 12 bits in length on the wire.

Not to mention that some really old hardware used 1.5 stop bits!




From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 18:42:13 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 10:42:13 +1100
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrrK_ac1YBk6SRU9OQ5oJ7Z6cqXso1+V=Z-KpoyiGAkkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 6:00 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>     - character 33 was permitted to be either the exclamation
>       mark ! or the logical OR symbol |
>
>     - consequently character 124 (vertical bar) was always
>       displayed as a broken bar ?, which explains why even today
>       many keyboards show it that way
>
>     - character 35 was permitted to be either the number sign # or
>       the pound sign ?
>
>     - character 94 could be either a caret ^ or a logical NOT ?

Yeah, good fun stuff. I first met several of these ambiguities in the
OS/2 REXX documentation, which detailed the language's operators by
specifying their byte values as well as their characters - for
instance, this quote from the docs (yeah, I still have it all here):

"""
Note:   Depending upon your Personal System keyboard and the code page
you are using, you may not have the solid vertical bar to select. For
this reason, REXX also recognizes the use of the split vertical bar as
a logical OR symbol. Some keyboards may have both characters. If so,
they are not interchangeable; only the character that is equal to the
ASCII value of 124 works as the logical OR. This type of mismatch can
also cause the character on your screen to be different from the
character on your keyboard.
"""
(The front material on the docs says "(C) Copyright IBM Corp. 1987,
1994. All Rights Reserved.")

It says "ASCII value" where on this list we would be more likely to
call it "byte value", and I'd prefer to say "represented by" rather
than "equal to", but nonetheless, this is still clearly distinguishing
characters and bytes. The language spec is on characters, but
ultimately the interpreter is going to be looking at bytes, so when
there's a problem, it's byte 124 that's the one defined as logical OR.
Oh, and note the copyright date. The byte/char distinction isn't new.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 21:33:39 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:33:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 12:30:18 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 05:03:57 -0800, rusi wrote:

> > Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
> > illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:
> > "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"

> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.

> Seriously. I am 100% serious.

> Your post was sent using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as 
> CP-1252, which is most certainly *not* Unicode. Whatever software you 
> used to send the message correctly flagged it with a charset header:

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

> Alas, the software Roy Smith uses, MT-NewsWatcher, does not handle 
> encodings correctly (or at all!), it screws up the encoding then sends a 
> reply with no charset line at all. This is one bug that cannot be blamed 
> on Google Groups -- or on Unicode.

> > I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:

> Actually you didn't. You wrote a number of ellipsis characters, hex byte 
> \x85 (decimal 133), in the CP1252 charset. That happens to be mapped to 
> code point U+2026 in Unicode, but the two are as distinct as ASCII and 
> EBCDIC.

> > Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became the
> > replacement character FFFD

> Yes, it appears that MT-NewsWatcher is *deeply, deeply* confused about 
> encodings and character sets. It doesn't just assume things are ASCII, 
> but makes a half-hearted attempt to be charset-aware, but badly. I can 
> only imagine that it was written back in the Dark Ages where there were a 
> lot of different charsets in use but no conventions for specifying which 
> charset was in use. Or perhaps the author was smoking crack while coding.

> > Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> > this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII" were
> > to uniformly hold.

> This is incorrect. People forget that ASCII has evolved since the first 
> version of the standard in 1963. There have actually been five versions 
> of the ASCII standard, plus one unpublished version. (And that's not 
> including the things which are frequently called ASCII but aren't.)

> ASCII-1963 didn't even include lowercase letters. It is also missing some 
> graphic characters like braces, and included at least two characters no 
> longer used, the up-arrow and left-arrow. The control characters were 
> also significantly different from today.

> ASCII-1965 was unpublished and unused. I don't know the details of what 
> it changed.

> ASCII-1967 is a lot closer to the ASCII in use today. It made 
> considerable changes to the control characters, moving, adding, removing, 
> or renaming at least half a dozen control characters. It officially added 
> lowercase letters, braces, and some others. It replaced the up-arrow 
> character with the caret and the left-arrow with the underscore. It was 
> ambiguous, allowing variations and substitutions, e.g.:

>     - character 33 was permitted to be either the exclamation 
>       mark ! or the logical OR symbol |

>     - consequently character 124 (vertical bar) was always 
>       displayed as a broken bar ?, which explains why even today
>       many keyboards show it that way

>     - character 35 was permitted to be either the number sign # or 
>       the pound sign ?

>     - character 94 could be either a caret ^ or a logical NOT ?

> Even the humble comma could be pressed into service as a cedilla.

> ASCII-1968 didn't change any characters, but allowed the use of LF on its 
> own. Previously, you had to use either LF/CR or CR/LF as newline.

> ASCII-1977 removed the ambiguities from the 1967 standard.

> The most recent version is ASCII-1986 (also known as ANSI X3.4-1986). 
> Unfortunately I haven't been able to find out what changes were made -- I 
> presume they were minor, and didn't affect the character set.

> So as you can see, even with actual ASCII, you can have mojibake. It's 
> just not normally called that. But if you are given an arbitrary ASCII 
> file of unknown age, containing code 94, how can you be sure it was 
> intended as a caret rather than a logical NOT symbol? You can't.

> Then there are at least 30 official variations of ASCII, strictly 
> speaking part of ISO-646. These 7-bit codes were commonly called "ASCII" 
> by their users, despite the differences, e.g. replacing the dollar sign $ 
> with the international currency sign ?, or replacing the left brace 
> { with the letter s with caron ?.

> One consequence of this is that the MIME type for ASCII text is called 
> "US ASCII", despite the redundancy, because many people expect "ASCII" 
> alone to mean whatever national variation they are used to.

> But it gets worse: there are proprietary variations on ASCII which are 
> commonly called "ASCII" but aren't, including dozens of 8-bit so-called 
> "extended ASCII" character sets, which is where the problems *really* 
> pile up. Invariably back in the 1980s and early 1990s people used to call 
> these "ASCII" no matter that they used 8-bits and contained anything up 
> to 256 characters.

> Just because somebody calls something "ASCII", doesn't make it so; even 
> if it is ASCII, doesn't mean you know which version of ASCII; even if you 
> know which version, doesn't mean you know how to interpret certain codes. 
> It simply is *wrong* to think that "good ol' plain ASCII text" is 
> unambiguous and devoid of problems.

> > With unicode there are in-memory formats, transportation formats eg
> > UTF-8, 

> And the same applies to ASCII. 

> ASCII is a *seven-bit code*. It will work fine on computers where the 
> word-size is seven bits. If the word-size is eight bits, or more, you 
> have to pad the ASCII code. How do you do that? Pad the most-significant 
> end or the least significant end? That's a choice there. How do you pad 
> it, with a zero or a one? That's another choice. If your word-size is 
> more than eight bits, you might even pad *both* ends.

> In C, a char is defined as the smallest addressable unit of the machine 
> that can contain basic character set, not necessarily eight bits. 
> Implementations of C and C++ sometimes reserve 8, 9, 16, 32, or 36 bits 
> as a "byte" and/or char. Your in-memory representation of ASCII "a" could 
> easily end up as bits 001100001 or 0000000001100001.

> And then there is the question of whether ASCII characters should be Big 
> Endian or Little Endian. I'm referring here to bit endianness, rather 
> than bytes: should character 'a' be represented as bits 1100001 (most 
> significant bit to the left) or 1000011 (least significant bit to the 
> left)? This may be relevant with certain networking protocols. Not all 
> networking protocols are big-endian, nor are all processors. The Ada 
> programming language even supports both bit orders.

> When transmitting ASCII characters, the networking protocol could include 
> various start and stop bits and parity codes. A single 7-bit ASCII 
> character might be anything up to 12 bits in length on the wire. It is 
> simply naive to imagine that the transmission of ASCII codes is the same 
> as the in-memory or on-disk storage of ASCII.

> You're lucky to be active in a time when most common processors have 
> standardized on a single bit-order, and when most (but not all) network 
> protocols have done the same. But that doesn't mean that these issues 
> don't exist for ASCII. If you get a message that purports to be ASCII 
> text but looks like this:

> "\tS\x1b\x1b{\x01u{'\x1b\x13!"

> you should suspect strongly that it is "Hello World!" which has been 
> accidentally bit-reversed by some rogue piece of hardware.

OOf! Thats a lot of data to digest! Thanks anyway.

There's one thing I want to get into:

> Your post was sent using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as 
> CP-1252, which is most certainly *not* Unicode. Whatever software you 
> used to send the message correctly flagged it with a charset header:

What the hell! I am using firefox 25.0 in debian-testing and posting via GG.

$ locale
shows me:
LANG=en_US.UTF-8

and a bunch of other things all en_US.UTF-8.

For the most part when I point FF at any site and go to view ->
character-encoding, it says Unicode (UTF-8).

However when I go to anything in the python archives:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/

FF shows it as Western (Windows-1252)

That seems to suggest that something is not right with the python
mailing list config. No??


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 21:41:45 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:41:45 +1100
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoSWPmMGWUtGmVrsLpZxnZZFdHObNGQmO0dA_M4JfCmdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:33 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> That seems to suggest that something is not right with the python
> mailing list config. No??

If in doubt, blame someone else, eh?

I'd first check what your browser's actually sending. Firebug will
help there. See if your form fill-out is encoded as UTF-8 or CP-1252.
That's the first step.

ChrisA


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Dec  6 22:19:15 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 03:19:15 +0000
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoSWPmMGWUtGmVrsLpZxnZZFdHObNGQmO0dA_M4JfCmdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmoSWPmMGWUtGmVrsLpZxnZZFdHObNGQmO0dA_M4JfCmdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A293B3.4050908@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 07/12/2013 02:41, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:33 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>> That seems to suggest that something is not right with the python
>> mailing list config. No??
>
> If in doubt, blame someone else, eh?
>
> I'd first check what your browser's actually sending. Firebug will
> help there. See if your form fill-out is encoded as UTF-8 or CP-1252.
> That's the first step.
>
Looking back through the thread, it looks like:

     Roy posted a reply in us-ascii.

     rusi replied in windows-1252, adding the '?'.

     Roy replied in us-ascii, but with '?' in place of '?'.

     rusi replied in utf-8, with '?' in place of '?'



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 22:16:35 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:16:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3693.1386384117.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3693.1386384117.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fc0339d0-ffac-4c11-a93c-33282ebf5511@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 8:11:45 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:33 PM, rusi  wrote:
> > That seems to suggest that something is not right with the python
> > mailing list config. No??

> If in doubt, blame someone else, eh?

> I'd first check what your browser's actually sending. Firebug will
> help there. See if your form fill-out is encoded as UTF-8 or CP-1252.
> That's the first step.

If you give me some tip where to look, I'll do that.
But I dont see what this has to do with forms.

Everything in the python archive (not just my posts) show as Win 1252
[I checked about 6]

Every other page that I checked (most nothing to do with python list,
GG etc) show UTF-8. [I checked about 5]

None of these checkings had forms to be filled.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 23:08:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 15:08:41 +1100
Subject: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
In-Reply-To: <fc0339d0-ffac-4c11-a93c-33282ebf5511@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <41e2ac37-d751-43b4-a720-e8da58429420@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3693.1386384117.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fc0339d0-ffac-4c11-a93c-33282ebf5511@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrwPEaPCx0fKxM7KUxV=Ycv5UMGj2YH-0Y6C5UhtYHd1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 2:16 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 8:11:45 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:33 PM, rusi  wrote:
>> > That seems to suggest that something is not right with the python
>> > mailing list config. No??
>
>> If in doubt, blame someone else, eh?
>
>> I'd first check what your browser's actually sending. Firebug will
>> help there. See if your form fill-out is encoded as UTF-8 or CP-1252.
>> That's the first step.
>
> If you give me some tip where to look, I'll do that.
> But I dont see what this has to do with forms.
>

Page encodings specify what comes from the server to your browser.
Your post went the other way. Tracing the data going back to the
server would tell you how it's encoded.

ChrisA


From pecore at pascolo.net  Sat Dec  7 11:05:34 2013
From: pecore at pascolo.net (giacomo boffi)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:05:34 +0100
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:

> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.  [...] Your post was sent
> using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as CP-1252

i access rusi's post using a NNTP server,
and in his post i see

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

is it possible that what you see is an artifact
of the gateway?


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 11:41:10 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 08:41:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
In-Reply-To: <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
Message-ID: <acb2b7b0-fd0b-4b67-b3ee-7fd6dcdda1f5@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 9:35:34 PM UTC+5:30, giacomo boffi wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano  writes:

> > Ironically, your post was not Unicode.  [...] Your post was sent
> > using a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as CP-1252

> i access rusi's post using a NNTP server,
> and in his post i see

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> is it possible that what you see is an artifact
> of the gateway?

Thanks for checking that!


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  8 12:22:34 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 08 Dec 2013 17:22:34 GMT
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
Message-ID: <52a4aada$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:05:34 +0100, giacomo boffi wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:
> 
>> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.  [...] Your post was sent using
>> a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as CP-1252
> 
> i access rusi's post using a NNTP server, and in his post i see
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

But *which post* are you looking at?


I have just looked at three posts from him:

Rusi's original post, where he used the ellipsis characters:

  Subject: Re: Managing Google Groups headaches
  Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0800 (PST)
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Then his reply to me:

  Subject: Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
  Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:33:39 -0800 (PST)
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

And finally, his reply to you:

  Subject: Re: ASCII and Unicode
  Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 08:41:10 -0800 (PST)
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

It seems to me that whatever client he is using to post (I believe it is 
Google Groups web interface?) varies the encoding depending on what 
characters are included in his post.


> is it possible that what you see is an artifact of the gateway?

I doubt it. Unfortunately the email mailing list archive doesn't display 
all the email headers, but for the record here is his original post as 
seen by the email mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/661782.html

If you view source, you'll see that Mailman (the mailing list software) 
sets the webpage encoding to US-ASCII and encodes the ellipses to &#8230, 
which is a perfectly reasonable thing for a web page to do. So we can be 
confident that when Mailman saw Rusi's post, it was able to correctly 
decode the message and see ellipses.

Although I think that (probably) Google Groups is being stupid by varying 
the charset (why not just use UTF-8 always?), at least it is setting the 
charset correctly. 



-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 12:39:47 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 09:39:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
In-Reply-To: <52a4aada$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <52a4aada$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <43bf6ffb-696d-4b5f-bfee-ec3e5e138883@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:52:34 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:05:34 +0100, giacomo boffi wrote:

> > Steven D'Aprano  writes:
> >> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.  [...] Your post was sent using
> >> a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as CP-1252
> > i access rusi's post using a NNTP server, and in his post i see
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> But *which post* are you looking at?

> I have just looked at three posts from him:

> Rusi's original post, where he used the ellipsis characters:

>   Subject: Re: Managing Google Groups headaches
>   Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0800 (PST)
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

> Then his reply to me:

>   Subject: Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches]
>   Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:33:39 -0800 (PST)
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> And finally, his reply to you:

>   Subject: Re: ASCII and Unicode
>   Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 08:41:10 -0800 (PST)
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> It seems to me that whatever client he is using to post (I believe it is 
> Google Groups web interface?) varies the encoding depending on what 
> characters are included in his post.

> > is it possible that what you see is an artifact of the gateway?

> I doubt it. Unfortunately the email mailing list archive doesn't display 
> all the email headers, but for the record here is his original post as 
> seen by the email mailing list:

> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/661782.html

> If you view source, you'll see that Mailman (the mailing list software) 
> sets the webpage encoding to US-ASCII and encodes the ellipses to &#8230, 
> which is a perfectly reasonable thing for a web page to do. So we can be 
> confident that when Mailman saw Rusi's post, it was able to correctly 
> decode the message and see ellipses.

> Although I think that (probably) Google Groups is being stupid by varying 
> the charset (why not just use UTF-8 always?), at least it is setting the 
> charset correctly. 

I think GG is being being sweet and affectionate and delectable enough that a
? in the footer will keep it stuck at UTF-8 you think ?? :-)




From pecore at pascolo.net  Sun Dec  8 15:11:41 2013
From: pecore at pascolo.net (giacomo boffi)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 21:11:41 +0100
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <52a4aada$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87ppp7umpu.fsf@pascolo.net>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:

> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 17:05:34 +0100, giacomo boffi wrote:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:
>> 
>>> Ironically, your post was not Unicode.  [...] Your post was sent using
>>> a legacy encoding, Windows-1252, also known as CP-1252
>> 
>> i access rusi's post using a NNTP server, and in his post i see
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> But *which post* are you looking at?

<blush> the wrong one...</> i.e, the one JUST BEFORE your change of
subject --- if i look at the "ellipsis" post, i see the same encoding
that you have mentioned

sorry for the confusion


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 22:02:24 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 19:02:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ASCII and Unicode
In-Reply-To: <87ppp7umpu.fsf@pascolo.net>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <52a21ec1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87iov0ir3l.fsf@pascolo.net>
 <52a4aada$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <87ppp7umpu.fsf@pascolo.net>
Message-ID: <559eaf34-a2f3-4fb4-8a70-9384e84468fe@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 1:41:41 AM UTC+5:30, giacomo boffi wrote:
> <blush> the wrong one...</> i.e, the one JUST BEFORE your change of
> subject --- if i look at the "ellipsis" post, i see the same encoding
> that you have mentioned

> sorry for the confusion

And thank you for pointing the way to the culprit, viz. GG trying to be
too clever.

[Since you neglected to close your <blush> I am included in it :-) ]


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec  6 18:27:58 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 12:27:58 +1300
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bgf4s0F6jqhU1@mid.individual.net>

rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 1:06:30 PM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
>>Which means, if I wanted to (and many examples of this exist), I can 
>>write my own client which presents the same information in different 
>>ways.
> 
> Not sure whats your point.

The point is the existence of an alternative interface that's
designed for use by other programs rather than humans.

This is what web forums are missing. If it existed, one could
easily create an alternative client with a newsreader-like
interface. Without it, such a client would have to be a
monstrosity that worked by screen-scraping the html.

It's not about the format of the messages themselves -- that
could be text, or html, or reST, or bbcode or whatever. It's
about the *framing* of the messages, and being able to
query them by their metadata.

-- 
Greg


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec  6 21:24:50 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:24:50 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7u0t7$n30$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/6/13 8:03 AM, rusi wrote:
>> I think you're off on the wrong track here.  This has nothing to do with
>> >plain text (ascii or otherwise).  It has to do with divorcing how you
>> >store and transport messages (be they plain text, HTML, or whatever)
>> >from how a user interacts with them.
>
> Evidently (and completely inadvertently) this exchange has just
> illustrated one of the inadmissable assumptions:
>
> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"
>
> I wrote a number of ellipsis characters ie codepoint 2026 as in:
>
>    - human communication?
> (is not very different from)
>    - machine communication?
>
> Somewhere between my sending and your quoting those ellipses became
> the replacement character FFFD
>
>>> > >   - human communication?
>>> > >(is not very different from)
>>> > >   - machine communication?
> Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII"
> were to uniformly hold.
>
> Of course with unicode also this can be made to not happen, but that
> is fragile and error-prone.  And that is because ASCII (not extended)
> is ONE thing in a way that unicode is hopelessly a motley inconsistent
> variety.

You seem to be suggesting that we should stick to ASCII.  There are of 
course languages that need more than just the Latin alphabet.  How would 
you suggest we support them?  Or maybe I don't understand?

--Ned.



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 02:43:05 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 23:43:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 7:54:50 AM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/6/13 8:03 AM, rusi wrote:

> > Leaving aside whose fault this is (very likely buggy google groups),
> > this mojibaking cannot happen if the assumption "All text is ASCII"
> > were to uniformly hold.
> > Of course with unicode also this can be made to not happen, but that
> > is fragile and error-prone.  And that is because ASCII (not extended)
> > is ONE thing in a way that unicode is hopelessly a motley inconsistent
> > variety.

> You seem to be suggesting that we should stick to ASCII.  There are of 
> course languages that need more than just the Latin alphabet.  How would 
> you suggest we support them?  Or maybe I don't understand?

Heh! Yes I guess that can be read into what I was saying.

Practically: I dont see that as an option or that the question of
going back to ASCII even arises.

I was talking more philosophically/historically.

Up until the time of Unix a file for example was a structured
heavy-duty concept motivated by entirely technological considerations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_set_%28IBM_mainframe%29

By simplifying that into the modern concept of file -- just a stream
of bytes -- and allowing the puns:

  byte string
= char list
= text

some elegant systems could be made with people having 'beautiful thoughts:'

Everything that could be stored anywhere -- core or disk -- being bytes
one could go to the next stage and pass around these bytes between
processes. And so we get the elegant --  pipeline -- beauty of Unix
scripts.

Of course there was a catch (Isn't there always?):

Things that did not fit in with this philosophy -- eg clicks of a mouse,
bits on display -- were modelled badly or not at all.

Not-at-all: CLI
Badly: Monstrosity called X

And this explains some of the cultural kinks of our field:

Unix guys invariably think of CLIs as natural and obvious whereas GUIs
are just wasteful eye-candy.

[Yours truly is one of those old geezers who does not know how to
write a GUI to save his life. Almost normal in the Unix world except
that he's not proud of it]

Windows/Mac people do not suffer these delusions but then they dont think of 
programming as natural or obvious at all.

Ive often been amused at windows folk: They dont think of Word as a program.
Rather docs are things that magically open when clicked :-)

Brings me to the point I was trying to make (got side-tracked by
the failure of a character to roundtrip between me and Roy  -- Im none the 
wiser why)

The ASCII = Text = Unicode (non)equation is a relatively minor point.

The more central point is that humans use and need more than just
words to communicate.  By straitjacketing communication into the thin
channel of text we are severely impoverishing ourselves.

We communicate with systems with programs that are unstructured
text-files even though programs are conceptually highly structured entities.

Likewise we communicate with each other by this obscenely obsolete
textual mode that I am using right now when rich text formats have been
available for decades.

Some of my more detailed writings on this:

http://blog.languager.org/2013/09/poorest-computer-users-are-programmers.html

http://blog.languager.org/2012/10/html-is-why-mess-in-programming-syntax.html


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 05:16:02 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 02:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>

Rusi:

"unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that
ASCII used to be"

Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence
is correct. Unicode and ascii are constructed in the
same way. It has not even to do with "characters", but
with mathematics.

It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically
wrong by design!

jmf




From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec  7 06:25:07 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 11:25:07 GMT
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a30593$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 02:16:02 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:

> Rusi:
> 
> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"
> 
> Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence is correct.
> Unicode and ascii are constructed in the same way. It has not even to do
> with "characters", but with mathematics.
> 
> It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically wrong by design!


I'm reminded of that fellow, I don't remember his name, who *years* after 
the Wright Brothers had flown, and there were dozens of people building 
aeroplanes, was still trying to convince everyone that heavier-than-air 
flight was mathematically impossible.


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 06:49:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 22:49:51 +1100
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <52a30593$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
 <52a30593$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqgj1qpd573fLomSgazSzn_zLG+yKpzsXyJSO=tm5fiLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 10:25 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 02:16:02 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:
>
>> Rusi:
>>
>> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that ASCII used to be"
>>
>> Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence is correct.
>> Unicode and ascii are constructed in the same way. It has not even to do
>> with "characters", but with mathematics.
>>
>> It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically wrong by design!
>
>
> I'm reminded of that fellow, I don't remember his name, who *years* after
> the Wright Brothers had flown, and there were dozens of people building
> aeroplanes, was still trying to convince everyone that heavier-than-air
> flight was mathematically impossible.

Nearest I can find is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Newcomb#On_the_impossibility_of_a_flying_machine

He at least accepted the Wrights' work once he found out about it.
Also, he didn't make repeated usenet posts that torpedo you in the
face and leave an "Uh?"-shaped hole. [1] I'm still not sure what jmf
meant by the above.

ChrisA

[1] http://bofh.ntk.net/BOFH/1999/bastard99-24.php


From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec  7 11:08:08 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:08:08 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-F4F08B.11080807122013@news.panix.com>

In article <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543 at googlegroups.com>,
 wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

> It is on this level the FSR fails.

What is "FSR"?  I apologize if this was explained earlier in the thread 
and I can't find the reference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSR#Science_and_technology was no help.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Dec  7 11:19:32 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 10:19:32 -0600
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-F4F08B.11080807122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-F4F08B.11080807122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131207101932.5a187a65@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-07 11:08, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543 at googlegroups.com>,
>  wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > It is on this level the FSR fails.
> 
> What is "FSR"?  I apologize if this was explained earlier in the
> thread and I can't find the reference.

Flexible String Representation = PEP393

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0393/

-tkc





From sg552 at hotmail.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 11:15:33 2013
From: sg552 at hotmail.co.uk (Rotwang)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:15:33 +0000
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <roy-F4F08B.11080807122013@news.panix.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-F4F08B.11080807122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7vhj6$tf1$2@dont-email.me>

On 07/12/2013 16:08, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543 at googlegroups.com>,
>   wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> It is on this level the FSR fails.
>
> What is "FSR"?  I apologize if this was explained earlier in the thread
> and I can't find the reference.

It's the Flexible String Representation, introduced in Python 3.3:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0393/


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 11:27:38 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:27:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4f2f52f7-4f6f-4944-9d61-86f676f0ae82@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:46:02 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm... at gmail.com wrote:
> Rusi:

> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that
> ASCII used to be"

> Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence
> is correct. Unicode and ascii are constructed in the
> same way. It has not even to do with "characters", but
> with mathematics.

On the contrary, I'd say we have some rather interesting
'characters' out here.

> It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically
> wrong by design!

Now thats an even more interesting statement. Only not sure what it means
Here are some attempts

It is wrong therefore unmathematical
It is designed so its wrong
It is mathematical so its undesigned

Any Ive missed??


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sat Dec  7 12:04:30 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 12:04:30 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
In-Reply-To: <4f2f52f7-4f6f-4944-9d61-86f676f0ae82@googlegroups.com>
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-1384C7.02363006122013@news.panix.com>
 <ae4b6a4d-fbd4-4d10-a860-9589e6045d16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3691.1386383105.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5137f9a5-d0a0-4f7a-8d50-e464094392e2@googlegroups.com>
 <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>
 <4f2f52f7-4f6f-4944-9d61-86f676f0ae82@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7vkej$v21$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/7/13 11:27 AM, rusi wrote:
> On Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:46:02 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm... at gmail.com wrote:
>> Rusi:
>
>> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that
>> ASCII used to be"
>
>> Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence
>> is correct. Unicode and ascii are constructed in the
>> same way. It has not even to do with "characters", but
>> with mathematics.
>
> On the contrary, I'd say we have some rather interesting
> 'characters' out here.
>
>> It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically
>> wrong by design!
>
> Now thats an even more interesting statement. Only not sure what it means
> Here are some attempts
>
> It is wrong therefore unmathematical
> It is designed so its wrong
> It is mathematical so its undesigned
>
> Any Ive missed??
>

JMF: Please stop making this claim.  The last 20 times you claimed it 
you didn't convince anyone on this list, and I doubt you have any new 
information.

Rusi: if you are interested in the details, search the archives.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec  6 22:07:25 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 03:07:25 GMT
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a290ed$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:28:54 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:

>> The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and
>> presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally
>> designed to be a closed system.  Mail and usenet were both engineered
>> to make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which
>> meant it was possible to evolve each at their own pace.
> 
>> Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client
>> applications which interoperated with the existing system.  But, it
>> also meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP
>> gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet
>> transport layer).
> 
> There is a deep assumption hovering round-about the above -- what I will
> call the 'Unix assumption(s)'.  But before that, just a check on
> terminology. By 'presentation' you mean what people normally call
> 'mail-clients': thunderbird, mutt etc. And by 'transport' you mean
> sendmail, exim, qmail etc etc -- what normally are called
> 'mail-servers.'  Right??

Presentation means how the data is presented. Transport means how the 
data is transported. It doesn't refer to a specific piece of software 
like Thunderbird, but to the logical fact that what people see (the 
presentation) is not identical to what gets transported from one computer 
to another.

All programs make *some* distinction between the two. Email is encoded, 
wrapped with normally-hidden headers, and then sent, before being 
displayed at the other end sans such headers. But some programs make a 
nice clean distinction. If your mail client converts emails to sound for 
the benefit of the blind, that is easy to do because there is a clean 
*and public* distinction between the transport and presentation of email 
-- everybody can agree on how to extract the message ("Hi Bob, are we 
still meeting up for drinks tomorrow night?") from the transportation 
layer (the email envelope).

In contrast, that is not the case with nearly all web forums. By 
deliberate design, or mere ignorance and neglect, they mix up the message 
you care about ("Hi Bob...") and the stuff you need to get that message 
(the HTML and Javascript code) in one big ball of mud, and don't have 
APIs for getting messages. Or worse, they deliberate obfuscate the 
content, in an attempt to lock people in to only using the specific 
interface they want you to use.

Consider the difference between (say) Twitter, which has published 
standard APIs for reading and writing tweets, and StackOverflow, which as 
far as I can tell insists that the one and only way to read and write 
comments is via their website. The internal formatting of the website is 
not public and is subject to change without notice.

(If I have unfairly maligned StackOverflow, substitute any number of 
dozens or hundreds of web forums.) 


[...]
> To the extent that these assumptions are invalid, the 'opaque-blob' may
> well be preferable.

No. Nice clean interfaces separating concerns (such as transport and 
presentation) have little to do with ASCII text. One can define clear and 
open binary protocols too.



-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 22:40:58 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:40:58 -0500
Subject: Managing Google Groups headaches
References: <5f370a06-8d2c-4d7d-bc22-b9a489c15c59@googlegroups.com>
 <132658ff-d06a-4136-ade6-353189da5769@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3565.1386170444.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-9C2ADB.19585404122013@news.panix.com>
 <51007240-6bc9-4f0b-9937-4883bcc0ceb6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a290ed$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-0646E9.22405806122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52a290ed$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> In contrast, that is not the case with nearly all web forums. By 
> deliberate design, or mere ignorance and neglect, they mix up the message 
> you care about ("Hi Bob...") and the stuff you need to get that message 
> (the HTML and Javascript code) in one big ball of mud, and don't have 
> APIs for getting messages.

BTW, I was going to bring up vBulletin as an example of a typical web 
forum which suffers from the "big ball of mud" syndrome.  Then I 
discovered that it does indeed have a reasonable looking API 
(http://www.vbulletin.com/vbcms/content.php/367-API-Overview).

Beautiful Soup is an awesome tool.  Even more awesome is when you don't 
have to use it :-)


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Dec  2 06:41:09 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 03:41:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container  with sort function
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3400.1385737072.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <b5e67d65-76a4-4a1a-87b4-70402c9bf865@googlegroups.com>
 <0c445e44-25c7-42b9-8c62-c30428261251@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3400.1385737072.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <39b48b0b-5c0a-42d9-922f-27987386764b@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?11?29????UTC+8??10?57?36??Mark Lawrence???
> On 29/11/2013 12:33, iMath wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > BTW ,the Queue object has an attribute 'queue' ,but I cannot find it described in the DOC ,what it means ?
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Really? AttributeError: type object 'Queue' has no attribute 'queue'
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Python is the second best programming language in the world.
> 
> But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Lawrence

you can do a check by hasattr()


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 06:58:11 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 06:58:11 -0500
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container  with sort function
In-Reply-To: <39b48b0b-5c0a-42d9-922f-27987386764b@googlegroups.com>
References: <b5e67d65-76a4-4a1a-87b4-70402c9bf865@googlegroups.com>
 <0c445e44-25c7-42b9-8c62-c30428261251@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3400.1385737072.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <39b48b0b-5c0a-42d9-922f-27987386764b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7hsk6$n25$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 6:41 AM, iMath wrote:
> ? 2013?11?29????UTC+8??10?57?36??Mark Lawrence???
>> On 29/11/2013 12:33, iMath wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> BTW ,the Queue object has an attribute 'queue' ,but I cannot find it described in the DOC ,what it means ?
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really? AttributeError: type object 'Queue' has no attribute 'queue'
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Python is the second best programming language in the world.
>>
>> But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Lawrence
>
> you can do a check by hasattr()
>

Yes, a Queue object has a queue attribute:

     >>> import Queue
     >>> q = Queue.Queue()
     >>> q.queue
     deque([])

But you shouldn't use it.  It's part of the implementation of Queue, not 
meant for you to use directly.  In particular, if you use it directly, 
you are skipping all synchronization, which is the main reason to use a 
Queue in the first place.

It should have been named "_queue". We'll add that to the list of PEP-8 
violations in the Queue module! :)

--Ned.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 07:04:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:04:51 +1100
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <l7hsk6$n25$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <b5e67d65-76a4-4a1a-87b4-70402c9bf865@googlegroups.com>
 <0c445e44-25c7-42b9-8c62-c30428261251@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3400.1385737072.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <39b48b0b-5c0a-42d9-922f-27987386764b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7hsk6$n25$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqEBNY+=cqta_ToGrcpGWDyix9y4Jezr9Q=eTpGVq59xw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> Yes, a Queue object has a queue attribute:
>
>     >>> import Queue
>     >>> q = Queue.Queue()
>     >>> q.queue
>     deque([])
>
> But you shouldn't use it.  It's part of the implementation of Queue, not
> meant for you to use directly.  In particular, if you use it directly, you
> are skipping all synchronization, which is the main reason to use a Queue in
> the first place.

I should apologize here; when the OP said "queue", I immediately
noticed that I could import that and use it, and mistakenly started my
testing on that, instead of using the deque type. It's deque that
should be used here. Queue is just a wrapper around deque that adds
functionality that has nothing to do with what's needed here.

ChrisA


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 07:26:01 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 07:26:01 -0500
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqEBNY+=cqta_ToGrcpGWDyix9y4Jezr9Q=eTpGVq59xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b5e67d65-76a4-4a1a-87b4-70402c9bf865@googlegroups.com>
 <0c445e44-25c7-42b9-8c62-c30428261251@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3400.1385737072.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <39b48b0b-5c0a-42d9-922f-27987386764b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7hsk6$n25$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqEBNY+=cqta_ToGrcpGWDyix9y4Jezr9Q=eTpGVq59xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7hu8f$9ea$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 7:04 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>> Yes, a Queue object has a queue attribute:
>>
>>      >>> import Queue
>>      >>> q = Queue.Queue()
>>      >>> q.queue
>>      deque([])
>>
>> But you shouldn't use it.  It's part of the implementation of Queue, not
>> meant for you to use directly.  In particular, if you use it directly, you
>> are skipping all synchronization, which is the main reason to use a Queue in
>> the first place.
>
> I should apologize here; when the OP said "queue", I immediately
> noticed that I could import that and use it, and mistakenly started my
> testing on that, instead of using the deque type. It's deque that
> should be used here. Queue is just a wrapper around deque that adds
> functionality that has nothing to do with what's needed here.
>
> ChrisA
>

Actually, I had a long conversation in the #python IRC channel with the 
OP at the same time he was posting the question here, and it turns out 
he knows exactly how many entries are going into the "queue", so a 
plain-old list is the best solution.  I don't know quite where the idea 
of limiting the number of entries came from.

--Ned.



From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 16:17:18 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:17:18 +1100
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <l7hu8f$9ea$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7hu8f$9ea$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131203211718.GA94804@cskk.homeip.net>

On 02Dec2013 07:26, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> Actually, I had a long conversation in the #python IRC channel with
> the OP at the same time he was posting the question here, and it
> turns out he knows exactly how many entries are going into the
> "queue", so a plain-old list is the best solution.  I don't know
> quite where the idea of limiting the number of entries came from.

For me, it was because he said "fill the queue" in the OP. I took
that to imply that the queue had a capacity limit.

Cheers,
-- 

It's bubble, bubble, toil and trouble in conductive polymer.
- overhead by WIRED at the Intelligent Printing conference Oct2006


From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 16:19:39 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:19:39 +1100
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <20131203211718.GA94804@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20131203211718.GA94804@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20131203211939.GA96916@cskk.homeip.net>

On 04Dec2013 08:17, I wrote:
> On 02Dec2013 07:26, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> > Actually, I had a long conversation in the #python IRC channel with
> > the OP at the same time he was posting the question here, and it
> > turns out he knows exactly how many entries are going into the
> > "queue", so a plain-old list is the best solution.  I don't know
> > quite where the idea of limiting the number of entries came from.
> 
> For me, it was because he said "fill the queue" in the OP. I took
> that to imply that the queue had a capacity limit.

And then I check the source:-( He actually said "I want to a fixed
length list-like container". That still sounds like a limit to the
number of entries.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Success in software development depends on making a carefully planned
series of small mistakes in order to avoid making unplanned large
mistakes.       - Steve McConnell, _Software Project Survival Guide_


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec  3 16:34:02 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:34:02 -0500
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <20131203211939.GA96916@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20131203211718.GA94804@cskk.homeip.net>
 <20131203211939.GA96916@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <l7linv$vj7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/3/13 4:19 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 04Dec2013 08:17, I wrote:
>> On 02Dec2013 07:26, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>>> Actually, I had a long conversation in the #python IRC channel with
>>> the OP at the same time he was posting the question here, and it
>>> turns out he knows exactly how many entries are going into the
>>> "queue", so a plain-old list is the best solution.  I don't know
>>> quite where the idea of limiting the number of entries came from.
>>
>> For me, it was because he said "fill the queue" in the OP. I took
>> that to imply that the queue had a capacity limit.
>
> And then I check the source:-( He actually said "I want to a fixed
> length list-like container". That still sounds like a limit to the
> number of entries.
>
> Cheers,
>

Sorry, I was unclear. When I said, "I don't know where the idea came 
from," I should have said, "the OP said he wanted a fixed-length 
contained, but I don't know why he thinks that."

--Ned.



From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 18:23:49 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:23:49 +1100
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <l7linv$vj7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7linv$vj7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131203232349.GA18433@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Dec2013 16:34, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/13 4:19 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> >And then I check the source:-( He actually said "I want to a fixed
> >length list-like container". That still sounds like a limit to the
> >number of entries.
> 
> Sorry, I was unclear. When I said, "I don't know where the idea came
> from," I should have said, "the OP said he wanted a fixed-length
> contained, but I don't know why he thinks that."

Me either.

Unless this is a homework task: "make one of these".
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

It's as if all of Scottish cuisine is based on a dare.  - Saturday Night Live


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Tue Dec  3 19:47:24 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:47:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to implement a queue-like container with sort function
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3537.1386113040.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <l7linv$vj7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3537.1386113040.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a12ee8a3-c2c4-4117-80e9-ad5843e0d656@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?4????UTC+8??7?23?49??Cameron Simpson???
> On 03Dec2013 16:34, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 12/3/13 4:19 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> 
> > >And then I check the source:-( He actually said "I want to a fixed
> 
> > >length list-like container". That still sounds like a limit to the
> 
> > >number of entries.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Sorry, I was unclear. When I said, "I don't know where the idea came
> 
> > from," I should have said, "the OP said he wanted a fixed-length
> 
> > contained, but I don't know why he thinks that."
> 
> 
> 
> Me either.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless this is a homework task: "make one of these".
> 
> -- 
> 
> Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>
> 
> 
> 
> It's as if all of Scottish cuisine is based on a dare.  - Saturday Night Live

deque meets my requirement here :)


From julio at techfuel.net  Sun Dec  1 20:01:11 2013
From: julio at techfuel.net (Julio Schwarzbeck)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 17:01:11 -0800
Subject: Need help with programming in python for class (beginner level)
In-Reply-To: <e9d18514-1da5-471a-bf39-5f67d3d8fef7@googlegroups.com>
References: <e9d18514-1da5-471a-bf39-5f67d3d8fef7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7gm4d$g70$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/29/2013 04:31 PM, farhanken at gmail.com wrote:
> It's for a school assignment. Basically, I need to roll 5 dies with 6 sides each. So basically, 6 random numbers. That part is easy. Then I need to add it up. Ok, done that. However, I also need to say something along the lines of "your total number was X". That's what I'm having trouble with. I added the dice rolls together and put them into a variable I called "number" but it seems to glitch out that variable is in any command other than "print number". Like, if I try to write:
>
> print "<p>your total number was:" number "</p>"
>
> It just doesn't work.
>
> Here is my code so far:
>
>
> import cgi
>
> form = cgi.FieldStorage()
> name = form.getvalue("name")
> value = form.getvalue("value")
>
>
> print """Content-type: text/html
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
> "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
> <html><head>
> <title>A CGI Script</title>
> </head><body>
> """
> import random
>
> die1 = random.randint(1,6)
> die2 = random.randint(1,6)
> die3 = random.randint(1,6)
> die4 = random.randint(1,6)
> die5 = random.randint(1,6)
> print die1, die2, die3, die4, die5
> number = die1 + die2 + die3 + die4 + die5
> print "<p>The total rolled was: "number" </p>"
>
> print "<p>Thanks for playing, "  + name +  ".</p>"
> print "<p>You bet the total would be at least " + value + ".</p>"
> print "</body></html>"
>

My two "favorites":

print '<p>The total rolled was: %s </p>' % number
[py 2.7+] print('<p>The total rolled was: {} </p>'.format(number))

Cheers,

-- Speedbird



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 11:57:44 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 08:57:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3427.1385852868.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-89763C.21084929112013@news.panix.com>
 <b26b96f2-8415-4e58-8c47-243e4605b184@googlegroups.com>
 <bfv7lbFppgnU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3427.1385852868.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <15147203-f1e3-44dc-ab11-3847c638b37c@googlegroups.com>

Le dimanche 1 d?cembre 2013 00:07:36 UTC+1, Ned Batchelder a ?crit?:
> On 11/30/13 5:37 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> 
> > wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >> And do you know the origin of this typographical feature?
> 
> >> Because, mechanically, the dot of the "i" broke too often.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> In my opinion, a very plausible explanation.
> 
> >
> 
> > It doesn't sound very plausible to me, because there
> 
> > are a lot more stand-alone 'i's in English text than
> 
> > there are ones following an f. What is there to stop
> 
> > them from breaking?
> 
> >
> 
> > It's more likely to be simply a kerning issue. You
> 
> > want to get the stems of the f and the i close together,
> 
> > and the only practical way to do that with mechanical
> 
> > type is to merge them into one piece of metal.
> 
> >
> 
> > Which makes it even sillier to have an 'ffi' character
> 
> > in this day and age, when you can simply space the
> 
> > characters so that they overlap.
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> The fi ligature was created because visually, an f and i wouldn't work 
> 
> well together: the crossbar of the f was near, but not connected to the 
> 
> serif of the i, and the terminal bulb of the f was close to, but not 
> 
> coincident, with the dot of the i.
> 
> 
> 
> This article goes into great detail, and has a good illustration of how 
> 
> an f and i can clash, and how an fi ligature can fix the problem: 
> 
> http://opentype.info/blog/2012/11/20/whats-a-ligature/ . Note the second 
> 
> fi illustration, which demonstrates using a ligature to make the letters 
> 
> appear *less* connected than they would individually!
> 
> 
> 
> This is also why "simply spacing the characters" isn't a solution: a 
> 
> specially designed ligature looks better than a separate f and i, no 
> 
> matter how minutely kerned.
> 
> 
> 
> It's unfortunate that Unicode includes presentation alternatives like 
> 
> the fi (and ff, fl, ffi, and fl) ligatures.  It was done to be a 
> 
> superset of existing encodings.
> 
> 
> 
> Many typefaces have other non-encoded ligatures as well, especially 
> 
> display faces, which also have alternate glyphs.  Unicode is a funny mix 
> 
> in that it includes some forms of alternates, but can't include all of 
> 
> them, so we have to put up with both an ad-hoc Unicode that includes 
> 
> presentational variants, and also some other way to specify variants 
> 
> because Unicode can't include all of them.
> 


I'm speaking about those times where the "characters" (some) were
not even built with metal, but with wood (see Garamond, Bodoni).

---------

Unicode is "only" collecting "characters" in the sense "abstract
entities". What is supposed to be a "character" is one problem.
How a tool is supposed to handle these "characters" is a problem
too, but a different one.

"Unicode" is not a coding scheme, it is a "repertoire".

Illustrative examples instead of explanations.

The ffl ligature is a "character" because it has always
existed.

The & and ? are considered today as unique "characters".
They were historically "ligaturated forms".

The Fahrenheit, Kelvin and Celsius are considered as
"characters", despite Fahrenheit, Kelvin are "letters".

Text justification. Calculating the space between "words"
in "rendering units" makes sense. Using a specific "character"
like a thin space to force a predefined space makes sense too.

The miscellaneous zeroes one may see, like uppercase O, O with
a dot in the center or a striked O are all the same zero, but
with stylistic variants, => a single "character" in the unicode
table.

... but this medieval "character" existing in two forms (I do not
remember which one) was finally registrated as two "characters",
and not as a stylistic variant of a single "character".

There are no "characters" for the symbols of the chemical elements,
a latin script is good enough.

The QPlainTextEdit widget from Qt does not know '\n'. It uses
only the paragraph separator and the line separator. To render
a paragraph separator, it uses one another "character", the
pilcrow.

The ? "character" in the iso-8859-1 coding scheme is a greek
letter, it must be used or percieved as a SI unit prefix.
Unicode category: Ll, unicode name: micro sign.

How to place an arrow (vector) on top of an ?, if one cann't
decompose it?

Related, there are dotless variants of i and j.

STIX fonts with the huge number of math symbols, not
yet in the unicode repertoire but present in the PUA.

etc.

Unicode is quite open. It's a good idea to keep that
openess to the developer. Shortly, if a coder decomposes
a "character" like "?" in a "a" plus a "^", it's up to
the developer to know what to do when reversing such a
string and to count this sequence as two real "characters".

jmf





From storchaka at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 13:00:21 2013
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 20:00:21 +0200
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l7ftes$t01$1@ger.gmane.org>

30.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano ???????(??):
> (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "l?on"? The implication of
> this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> than code points. Python fails this test:
>
> py> print("noe\u0308l"[::-1])
> leon

 >>> print(unicodedata.normalize('NFC', "noe\u0308l")[::-1])
l?on

> (3) What are the first three characters? The author suggests that the
> answer should be "no?", in which case Python fails again:
>
> py> print("noe\u0308l"[:3])
> noe

 >>> print(unicodedata.normalize('NFC', "noe\u0308l")[:3])
no?

> (4) Likewise, what is the length of the decomposed string? The author
> expects 4, but Python gives 5:
>
> py> len("noe\u0308l")
> 5

 >>> print(len(unicodedata.normalize('NFC', "noe\u0308l")))
4




From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 15:15:57 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 12:15:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>

0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano ???????(??):
> (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "l?on"? The implication of
> this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> than code points. ...
> 

BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.

jmf


From timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 15:54:48 2013
From: timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com (Tim Delaney)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 07:54:48 +1100
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 December 2013 07:15, <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:

> 0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano ???????(??):
> > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "l?on"? The implication of
> > this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> > than code points. ...
> >
>
> BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
>

Anyone with a decent level of reading comprehension would have understood
that Steven knows that. The implied word is "individual" i.e. "... rather
than [individual] code points".

Why am I responding to a troll? Probably because out of all his baseless
complaints about the FSR, he *did* have one valid point about performance
that has now been fixed.

Tim Delaney
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  1 17:06:10 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 22:06:10 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 01/12/2013 20:54, Tim Delaney wrote:
> On 2 December 2013 07:15, <wxjmfauth at gmail.com
> <mailto:wxjmfauth at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano ???????(??):
>      > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "l?on"? The
>     implication of
>      > this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters
>     rather
>      > than code points. ...
>      >
>
>     BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
>
>
> Anyone with a decent level of reading comprehension would have
> understood that Steven knows that. The implied word is "individual" i.e.
> "... rather than [individual] code points".
>
> Why am I responding to a troll? Probably because out of all his baseless
> complaints about the FSR, he *did* have one valid point about
> performance that has now been fixed.
>
> Tim Delaney
>
>

I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a 
reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was 
a regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061. 
  It was fixed by Serhiy Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more 
about Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!! :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 17:29:51 2013
From: timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com (Tim Delaney)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:29:51 +1100
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAN8CLg=Y8zYAfCnaAY9foxKMs6b1wooO2qbjJUqUkLs7PcK+6A@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
> reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there was a
> regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061.  It
> was fixed by Serhiy Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about
> Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!! :)
>

>From your own bug report (quoting Steven): "Nevertheless, I think there is
something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf claims
..."

His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.

Tim Delaney
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  1 18:10:33 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 23:10:33 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <CAN8CLg=Y8zYAfCnaAY9foxKMs6b1wooO2qbjJUqUkLs7PcK+6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAN8CLg=Y8zYAfCnaAY9foxKMs6b1wooO2qbjJUqUkLs7PcK+6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7gfl0$jk2$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 01/12/2013 22:29, Tim Delaney wrote:
> On 2 December 2013 09:06, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk
> <mailto:breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>     I don't remember him ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a
>     reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano showing that there
>     was a regression which I flagged up here
>     http://bugs.python.org/__issue16061
>     <http://bugs.python.org/issue16061>.  It was fixed by Serhiy
>     Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll
>     ever know, grrr!!! :)
>
>
>  From your own bug report (quoting Steven): "Nevertheless, I think there
> is something here. The consequences are nowhere near as dramatic as jmf
> claims ..."
>
> His initial postings did lead to a regression being found.
>
> Tim Delaney
>
>

I'll begrudgungly concede that point, but must state that it was was an 
edge case that is unlikely to have too much impact in the real world. 
Unfortunately he's still making his ridiculous claims about the FSR, 
hence my nickname of "Joseph McCarthy".  I'll admit to liking that, it 
just feels right to me, YMMV.

What also really riles me is that he uses double spaced google crap, 
despite repeated requests from various people here for others to fix how 
they use it, or get a decent email client.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Sun Dec  1 17:50:53 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 14:50:53 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529BBD4D.4070408@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/01/2013 02:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
> I don't remember him [jmf] ever having a valid point, so FTR can we have a reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano
> showing that there was a regression which I flagged up here http://bugs.python.org/issue16061.  It was fixed by Serhiy
> Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll ever know, grrr!!! :)

The initial complaint came, unsurprisingly, from jmf.  But don't worry much, even a stopped clock has a better track 
record... it's at least right twice a day.  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  1 19:43:43 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 00:43:43 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529BBD4D.4070408@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAN8CLgmxmORSdijKUAxA=WRYLiwm3CWrK87765Prhnm6dAVxRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7gbs8$em3$1@ger.gmane.org> <529BBD4D.4070408@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7gl3m$70g$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 01/12/2013 22:50, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/01/2013 02:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>> I don't remember him [jmf] ever having a valid point, so FTR can we
>> have a reference please.  I do remember Steven D'Aprano
>> showing that there was a regression which I flagged up here
>> http://bugs.python.org/issue16061.  It was fixed by Serhiy
>> Storchaka, who appears to have forgotten more about Python than I'll
>> ever know, grrr!!! :)
>
> The initial complaint came, unsurprisingly, from jmf.  But don't worry
> much, even a stopped clock has a better track record... it's at least
> right twice a day.  ;)
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

I had to chuckle, "initial complaint" indeed!!!  He first started 
complaining in August 2012 in this thread 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2012-August/628650.html. 
Then he continued in September 2012 in this thread 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2012-September/631613.html, which 
lead to issue 16061.  He's been continuing to moan on and off ever 
since, but funnily enough has *NEVER* produced a single shred of 
evidence to back his claims.  We'll have to wait until the cows come 
home before he does.

Contrast that to the Victor Stinner statement here 
http://bugs.python.org/issue16061#msg171413 "Python 3.3 is 2x faster 
than Python 3.2 to replace a character with another if the string only 
contains the character 3 times. This is not acceptable, Python 3.3 must 
be as slow as Python 3.2!"  Thinking about that I really do want the 
Python 2 code back.  Apart from the PEP 393 implementation being faster, 
using less memory and being correct, it has nothing to offer.  Now what 
Python sketch does that remind me of? :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 07:39:26 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 04:39:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>

Le dimanche 1 d?cembre 2013 21:54:48 UTC+1, Tim Delaney a ?crit?:
> On 2 December 2013 07:15,  <wxjm... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 0.11.13 02:44, Steven D'Aprano ???????(??):
> 
> 
> > (2) If you reverse that string, does it give "l?on"? The implication of
> 
> > this question is that strings should operate on grapheme clusters rather
> 
> > than code points. ...
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, a grapheme cluster *is* a code points cluster.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone with a decent level of reading comprehension would have understood that Steven knows that. The implied word is "individual" i.e. "... rather than [individual] code points".
> 
> 
> 
> Why am I responding to a troll? Probably because out of all his baseless complaints about the FSR, he *did* have one valid point about performance that has now been fixed.
> 
> 
> Tim Delaney


My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
it correctly.

The point in not in the words "grapheme" or "code point",
neither in "individual", ;-), the point is in "rather".

If one wishes to work on a set of graphemes, one can
only work with the set of the corresponding code points.


To complete Serhiy Storchaka's example:

>>> len(unicodedata.normalize('NFKD', '\ufdfa')) == 18
True

is correct.

jmf

PS I did not even speak about the FSR.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 09:46:28 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:46:28 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
> My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
> it correctly.
>
> PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
>

1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the 
repeated requests *NOT* to send us double spaced crap via google groups.

2) You can't speak about the FSR as you know precisely nothing about it, 
but as they say, ignorance is bliss.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 10:22:43 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:22:43 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
>> it correctly.
>>
>> PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
>>
>
> 1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the
> repeated requests *NOT* to send us double spaced crap via google groups.
>
> 2) You can't speak about the FSR as you know precisely nothing about it,
> but as they say, ignorance is bliss.
>

As annoying as baseless claims against the FSR were, wxjmafauth is 
right: he didn't even mention the FSR in this thread.  There's really no 
point dragging this thread into that territory.

--Ned.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 10:45:18 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:45:18 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 15:22, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
>>> it correctly.
>>>
>>> PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
>>>
>>
>> 1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the
>> repeated requests *NOT* to send us double spaced crap via google groups.
>>
>> 2) You can't speak about the FSR as you know precisely nothing about it,
>> but as they say, ignorance is bliss.
>>
>
> As annoying as baseless claims against the FSR were, wxjmafauth is
> right: he didn't even mention the FSR in this thread.  There's really no
> point dragging this thread into that territory.
>
> --Ned.
>

He's quite deliberately dragged it up by using p.s.  Without doubt he's 
the worst loser in the world and I'm *NOT* stopping getting at him.  I 
find his behaviour, continuously and groundlessly insulting the Python 
core developers, quite disgusting.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 10:49:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 02:49:34 +1100
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoxLP_NV9T++2mowBb28xnWr0te4Ftq_iwuJF1SydgO0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:45 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> He's quite deliberately dragged it up by using p.s.  Without doubt he's the
> worst loser in the world and I'm *NOT* stopping getting at him.  I find his
> behaviour, continuously and groundlessly insulting the Python core
> developers, quite disgusting.

What he does is make very sure that the awesomeness of Python 3.3+ is
constantly being brought up on python-list. New users of Python who
come here will, within a fairly short time, learn that Python actually
gets Unicode right, unlike most languages out there, and that it's
efficient and high performance.

ChrisA


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 10:58:26 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 10:58:26 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7iamn$7bp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 15:22, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/2/13 9:46 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 02/12/2013 12:39, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My English is far too be perfect, I think I understood
>>>> it correctly.
>>>>
>>>> PS I did not even speak about the FSR.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 1) Your English is far from perfect as you clearly do not understand the
>>> repeated requests *NOT* to send us double spaced crap via google groups.
>>>
>>> 2) You can't speak about the FSR as you know precisely nothing about it,
>>> but as they say, ignorance is bliss.
>>>
>>
>> As annoying as baseless claims against the FSR were, wxjmafauth is
>> right: he didn't even mention the FSR in this thread.  There's really no
>> point dragging this thread into that territory.
>>
>> --Ned.
>>
>
> He's quite deliberately dragged it up by using p.s.  Without doubt he's
> the worst loser in the world and I'm *NOT* stopping getting at him.  I
> find his behaviour, continuously and groundlessly insulting the Python
> core developers, quite disgusting.
>

His PS is in reference to you, Ethan, and Tim reminiscing about his past 
complaints against the FSR.  He made three posts to this thread before 
you started in on him, and none of them mentioned the FSR.  Tim first 
mentioned it.

There's no need to call him "the worst loser in the world."  Nothing 
good will come from that kind of attack.  It doesn't make this community 
better, and it will not change his behavior.

He said nothing in this thread that insulted the Python core developers. 
His posts in this thread are not about the FSR, and yet you dragged the 
old fights into it.  You are being the troll here.

--Ned.



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  2 15:26:09 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 15:26:09 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> the worst loser in the world

Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters 
to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to 
python-list. Please stop.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy, one of multiple list moderators



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 15:45:10 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:45:10 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> the worst loser in the world
>
> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
> python-list. Please stop.
>

The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core 
developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly 
acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they 
like about the core developers and there's no comeback.

You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought 
into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of 
their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight 
back *IS THE RULE HERE*.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 16:44:03 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:44:03 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> the worst loser in the world
>>
>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>> python-list. Please stop.
>>
>
> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>
> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>

The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core 
developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at 
all, and making them personal attacks to boot.

I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir 
things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which 
mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to 
the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?

Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string 
representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the 
worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a 
feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing 
the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't 
know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".

I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.

As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently 
that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts 
in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light 
of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more 
uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this 
forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it 
better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too 
much to ask that you abide by it.

The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate 
community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol 
isn't going to fix anything.

--Ned.




From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 17:24:37 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:24:37 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7j1aq$3l7$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>
>
> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>
> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>
> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>
> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>
> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
> much to ask that you abide by it.
>
> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
> isn't going to fix anything.
>
> --Ned.
>
>

BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me 
here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he 
gets the text.

--Ned.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 17:32:09 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:32:09 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7j1aq$3l7$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7j1aq$3l7$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7j1p1$9sd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>>
>>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other
>>>> posters
>>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>>
>>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes out of
>>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>>
>>
>> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
>> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
>> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>>
>> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
>> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
>> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
>> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>>
>> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
>> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
>> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
>> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
>> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
>> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>>
>> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>>
>> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
>> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
>> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
>> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
>> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
>> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
>> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
>> much to ask that you abide by it.
>>
>> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
>> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
>> isn't going to fix anything.
>>
>> --Ned.
>>
>>
>
> BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me
> here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he
> gets the text.
>
> --Ned.
>

I've kill-filed you on my personnal email address which I asked you 
specifically *NOT* to message me on.  You completely ignored that 
request.  FTR you're only the second person I've ever done that to, the 
other being a pot smoking hippy who thankfully hasn't been seen for years.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 17:53:28 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:53:28 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7j1p1$9sd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7j1aq$3l7$2@ger.gmane.org> <l7j1p1$9sd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7j30t$ml0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 5:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 22:24, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/2/13 4:44 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> On 12/2/13 3:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other
>>>>> posters
>>>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>>>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now perfectly
>>>> acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they
>>>> like about the core developers and there's no comeback.
>>>>
>>>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought
>>>> into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at somebody who goes
>>>> out of
>>>> their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight
>>>> back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The point is that in this thread, no one was making attacks on core
>>> developers.  You were bringing up old animosity here for no reason at
>>> all, and making them personal attacks to boot.
>>>
>>> I don't see how you think wxjmfauth was "going out of his way to stir
>>> things up" in *this* thread.  He made three comments, none of which
>>> mentioned the FSR or any other controversial topic.  Can't we respond to
>>> the content of posts, and not to past offenses by the poster?
>>>
>>> Additionally, wxjmfauth's past complaints about the flexible string
>>> representation were not personal.  He didn't say, "Joe Smith is the
>>> worst loser in the world for writing the FSR".  He complained about a
>>> feature of CPython, baselessly, but he never attacked the people doing
>>> the work.  His continued complaints were aggravating, I agree. I don't
>>> know that they rose to the level of "disrespectful".
>>>
>>> I know that your behavior here is disrespectful.
>>>
>>> As to when the code of conduct is brought up, it's only fairly recently
>>> that it has been mentioned in this forum.  There have clearly been posts
>>> in recent memory (the last year) which could have been examined in light
>>> of the code of conduct, and were not. I think we are using it more
>>> uniformly now. You helped me realize better how to apply it to this
>>> forum, and I thank you for that.  I welcome your help in applying it
>>> better still.  But it applies to you as well and I don't think it's too
>>> much to ask that you abide by it.
>>>
>>> The way to improve this list is to respectfully point to and demonstrate
>>> community norms and ask people to conform to them.  Spewing vitriol
>>> isn't going to fix anything.
>>>
>>> --Ned.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> BTW: I think Mark has kill-filed me, so if anyone agrees enough with me
>> here to want Mark to see it, someone else will have to respond before he
>> gets the text.
>>
>> --Ned.
>>
>
> I've kill-filed you on my personnal email address which I asked you
> specifically *NOT* to message me on.  You completely ignored that
> request.  FTR you're only the second person I've ever done that to, the
> other being a pot smoking hippy who thankfully hasn't been seen for years.
>

Yes, I've apologized for that faux pas. I hope that you can forgive me. 
  Someday I hope to understand why it angered you so much.  Good to hear 
that we can communicate here.

--Ned.



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 17:41:14 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 14:41:14 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7j1p1$9sd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iuuo$69q$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7j1aq$3l7$2@ger.gmane.org> <l7j1p1$9sd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529D0C8A.1070800@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 02:32 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
> ... the other being a pot smoking hippy who ...

Please trim your posts.  You comment a lot on people sending double-spaced google posts -- not trimming is nearly as bad.

The above is a good example of unnecessary name calling.

I value your good posts.  Please keep a light-hearted and respectful tone.  When light-hearted doesn't cut it, you can 
still be respectful (of the other readers, even if the offender doesn't deserve it).

--
~Ethan~


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 16:25:55 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:25:55 -0800
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python Unicode
 handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> the worst loser in the world
>>
>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>> python-list. Please stop.
>
> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say what they like about the core developers and
> there's no comeback.
>
> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.

Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is 
being, done about that situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I haven't seen any threads 
from that one lately -- did he give up, or has he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are 
venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when 
the name-calling starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear, the coddling of trolls and 
help-vampires also makes the list an unfriendly place to be.

Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do do for us on this list and the others?  And what 
does the Code of Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  2 17:04:34 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:04:34 +0000
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7j059$lo8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 02/12/2013 21:25, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
>> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say
>> what they like about the core developers and
>> there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only
>> brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
>> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it
>> at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>
> Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and
> it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is being, done about that
> situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I
> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are
> venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally
> don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when the name-calling
> starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear,
> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.
>
> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?  And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

I deleted the first really spiteful reply, but the hypocrisy that 
continues to be shown gets right up both of my nostrils, hence I 
couldn't resist the above, greatly toned down response.  This will 
surely give an indication of how strongly I feel on issues such as this. 
  Rules are rules to be applied evenly, not on a pick and choose basis.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Dec  2 18:11:41 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:11:41 +1100
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <l7j059$lo8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <7wr49uonki.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> [?] the hypocrisy that continues to be shown gets right up both of my
> nostrils, hence I couldn't resist the above, greatly toned down
> response. This will surely give an indication of how strongly I feel
> on issues such as this. Rules are rules to be applied evenly, not on a
> pick and choose basis.

This forum doesn't have authorised moderators, and we don't have a body
of state employees charged with meting out justice evenly to all
parties. If you perceive uneven application of our code of conduct, that
will go a long way to explaining it.

What we do have is a community of volunteers whom we expect to both
uphold the code of conduct and self-apply it to the extent feasible.

This works only if we acknowledge both that we are human and will be
inconsistent and make errors, and conversely that what we *intend* to do
matters less than the actual and potential effects of our actions.

Anyone who feels compelled to be vitriolic here needs to find a way to
stop it, regardless how they perceive the treatment of others. We all
need each other's efforts to keep this community healthy.

-- 
 \      ?I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I |
  `\   like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.? ?Bilbo |
_o__)                                                          Baggins |
Ben Finney



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  2 22:39:53 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:39:53 -0500
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs
In-Reply-To: <7wr49uonki.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <l7j059$lo8$1@ger.gmane.org> <7wr49uonki.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <l7jjpv$74p$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/2013 6:11 PM, Ben Finney wrote:

> This forum doesn't have authorised moderators,

At least some PSF mailing lists have 1 or more PSF-authorized moderators 
(currently 4 for python-list) who pretty thanklessly check the initial 
posts of new subscribers and posts flagged by the spam detector as 
possible spam, or with other problems. We do not have 'every-post' 
moderation.

> If you perceive uneven application of our code of conduct,

As far as I know, there has been just one non-spam application of CoC
to python-list: Nikos. I do not see how anyone could call that uneven or 
unfair.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 17:23:35 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:23:35 -0500
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7j18t$3l7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/02/2013 12:45 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 02/12/2013 20:26, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2013 10:45 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> the worst loser in the world
>>>
>>> Mark, I consider your continual direct personal attacks on other posters
>>> to be a violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to
>>> python-list. Please stop.
>>
>> The attacks that "Joseph McCarthy" has been launching on the core
>> developers for the last 15 months are in my view now
>> perfectly acceptable.  This is excellent news.  Everybody can now say
>> what they like about the core developers and
>> there's no comeback.
>>
>> You can also stuff the code of conduct, it's quite clearly only
>> brought into play when it suits.  Never, ever aim it at
>> somebody who goes out of their way to stir things up, always target it
>> at the people who fight back *IS THE RULE HERE*.
>
> Mark,  I sympathize with your feelings.  jmf is certainly a troll, and
> it doesn't feel like anything has been, or is being, done about that
> situation (or for that matter, the help vampire situation... although I
> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).  However, I would suggest that when you are
> venting, you write the email and then just delete it.  I personally
> don't mind the light and humorous posts, but when the name-calling
> starts it makes the list an unfriendly place to be.  And, to be clear,
> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.
>
> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?  And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

We have pointed help-vampires at the Code of Conduct: 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-November/660343.html

He's also banned from the mailing list, which reduces the number of 
people who see his questions, and helps keep threads from exploding. For 
example, this message to the newsgroup 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/fdhF_Fr4fX0/9B0iK8jGigkJ (sorry 
for the groups link, didn't know how else to link to a post) doesn't 
appear at all in the mailing list, and therefore, in gmane.

But the mailing list ban isn't why you aren't seeing posts from him: he 
hasn't posted again since that linked message, on Nov 21.

I think he's not posting in part because we adopted a uniform stance of 
politely refusing to answer his questions, or even completely ignoring 
his questions.

Of course, he could be back at any time.  I hope we'll continue to 
present a calm unified front.

--Ned.



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  2 20:38:35 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:38:35 -0500
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls,
 and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode handling wins again --
 mostly]
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> what you can do for our language.

"I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the 
goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version 
and having everybody be cool with unicode."


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 20:56:14 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:56:14 -0800
Subject: Pythonista Goals  [was Re: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless
 Jobs]
In-Reply-To: <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <529D3A3E.4060709@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 05:38 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>> what you can do for our language.
>
> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."

Hear, Hear!

+1000!  :D

--
~Ethan~


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec  2 23:32:13 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:32:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7jmsc$2b4$2@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the 
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version 
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."

I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever
having to understand it and I can interact effortlessly with plain old
ASCII files.  Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.

-- 
Grant



From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec  3 00:41:07 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 03 Dec 2013 05:41:07 GMT
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com> <l7jmsc$2b4$2@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <529d6ef2$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:32:13 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> 
>> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
>> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
>> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
> 
> I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever having
> to understand it 

That will never happen. Unicode is a bit like floating point maths: 
there's always *some* odd corner case that will lead to annoyance and 
confusion and even murder:

http://gizmodo.com/382026/a-cellphones-missing-dot-kills-two-people-puts-three-more-in-jail

And then there are legacy encodings. There are three things in life that 
are inevitable: death, taxes, and text with the wrong encoding. Anyone 
dealing with text they didn't generate themselves is going to have to 
deal with mojibake at some point.

Having said that, if you control the text and always use UTF-8 for 
storage and transmission, Unicode isn't that hard. Decode bytes to 
Unicode as early as possible, do all your work in text rather than bytes, 
then encode back to bytes as late as possible, and you'll be fine.


> and I can interact effortlessly with plain old ASCII files.  

That at least is easy, provided you can guarantee that what you think if 
plain ol' ASCII actually is plain ol' ASCII, which isn't as easy as you 
might think given that an awful lot of people think that "extended ASCII" 
is a thing and that you ought to be able to deal with it just like ASCII.


> Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
> technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.

Heh, the standard certainly covers a lot of ground.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 07:14:52 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:14:52 +0000
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <l7jmsc$2b4$2@reader1.panix.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com> <l7jmsc$2b4$2@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7khva$q6q$3@ger.gmane.org>

On 03/12/2013 04:32, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-03, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>
>> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
>> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
>> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
>
> I'm cool with Unicode as long as it "just works" without me ever
> having to understand it and I can interact effortlessly with plain old
> ASCII files.  Evertime I start to read anything about Unicode with any
> technical detail at all, I start to get dizzy and bleed from the ears.
>

I'm pleased to see that I'm not the only one who suffers in this way :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 07:11:50 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:11:50 +0000
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls,
 and Thankless Jobs [was Re: Python Unicode
 handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-F7096F.20383502122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l7khpn$q6q$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 03/12/2013 01:38, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.3485.1386021891.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>> what you can do for our language.
>
> "I believe that Pythonistas should commit themselves to achieving the
> goal, before this decade is out, of making Python 3 the default version
> and having everybody be cool with unicode."
>

I like that, thank you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  2 22:22:21 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:22:21 -0500
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7jip5$svh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> jmf is certainly a troll

No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the 
FSR, which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then continued for a year with a 
strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. But his posts in the Unicode 
handling thread were not part of that. It seems to me that continually 
beating someone over the head with the past discourages changed 
behavior.  To me, the point of asking someone to 'stop' is to persuade 
them to stop. The reward for stopping should be to let the issue go.

> haven't seen any threads from that one lately -- did he give up, or has
> he been moderated away?).

Action was taken, including changing the usenet (clr) to mailing-list 
gateway. (I already mentioned this twice here.) The was done by one of 
the mailman infrastructure people at the request of the list 
owner/moderators. The people who stuck their necks out to privately 
contact the person in question displeased him and got privately 
mail-bombed with repeated insults. I guess he subsequently gave up.

> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
> unfriendly place to be.

I agree with the that as a statement, but not the implication. Was I 
hallucinating, or did you not recently participate in the discussion and 
decision to stop coddling our most obnoxious 'troll' in the community?

> Terry, would it be appropriate to share some of what the moderators do
> do for us on this list and the others?

Python-list moderators discard perhaps one spam post a day. You already 
noticed a recent major benefit.

> And what does the Code of
> Conduct have to say about trolls and help-vampires?

I need to re-read it to really answer that adequately. The term and 
defined concept 'help-vampire' is new to me (as of a month ago) and 
probably to the CoC writers.  However, the behavior strikes me as 
disrespectful of the community, and that *is* generically covered.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 23:11:47 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 20:11:47 -0800
Subject: Code of Conduct, Trolls, and Thankless Jobs  [was Re: Python
 Unicode handling wins again -- mostly]
In-Reply-To: <l7jip5$svh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3438.1385920822.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce8504d2-7e4e-4a2b-9cee-82bc6445492b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3443.1385931297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23ee5279-bdfd-4fb0-b535-042f7c3bab23@googlegroups.com>
 <l7i6fg$ga8$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7i8jn$aq7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7i9tn$sjh$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7iqcn$e9r$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7irgd$r96$1@ger.gmane.org> <529CFAE3.1070707@stoneleaf.us>
 <l7jip5$svh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529D5A03.8020007@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 07:22 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/2/2013 4:25 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> jmf is certainly a troll
>
> No, he is a person who discovered a minor performance regression in the FSR, which we fixed. Unfortunately, he then
> continued for a year with a strange troll-like anti-FSR crusade. But his posts in the Unicode handling thread were not
> part of that. It seems to me that continually beating someone over the head with the past discourages changed behavior.
> To me, the point of asking someone to 'stop' is to persuade them to stop. The reward for stopping should be to let the
> issue go.

I remember it slightly differently, but you're right -- we should let it drop.


>> the coddling of trolls and help-vampires also makes the list an
>> unfriendly place to be.
>
> I agree with the that as a statement, but not the implication. Was I hallucinating, or did you not recently participate
> in the discussion and decision to stop coddling our most obnoxious 'troll' in the community?

I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.  I'm against coddling those who refuse to learn and participate 
with respect to the rest of us, and I did vote to stop such coddling [1] of a certain troll.  I don't see the discrepancy.

All that aside, thank you to you and the other moderators for your time and efforts.

--
~Ethan~

[1] Coddling can be an offensive word, and I wish to make clear that initial efforts to educate and help newcomers are 
appropriate and warranted.  However, after some time has passed and the newcomer is no longer a newcomer and is still 
exhibiting rude and ignorant behavior, further attempts to help most likely won't, and that is when I would classify 
such attempts as coddling.

--
~Ethan~


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 15:38:09 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 12:38:09 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>

On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
> thing.

I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.

Thanks for this excellent post.

--
~Ethan~


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  2 16:14:13 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
>> thing.
>
> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
>
> Thanks for this excellent post.
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case 
that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be 
normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many 
accents, for example.  In that case, you can't always normalize and use 
the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.

--Ned.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 16:23:02 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:23:02 +1100
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us> <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoD9+Ka6S6YRGgGdPu2A6Lx1bKebkKNUN+mOWjg7JMGEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case that
> some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be normalized
> down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many accents, for
> example.

You can't normalize everything down to a single code point, but you
can normalize the other way by breaking out everything that can be
broken out.

>>> print(ascii(unicodedata.normalize("NFKC", "?")))
'\xe4'
>>> print(ascii(unicodedata.normalize("NFKD", "?")))
'a\u0308'

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec  2 16:27:08 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 13:27:08 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoD9+Ka6S6YRGgGdPu2A6Lx1bKebkKNUN+mOWjg7JMGEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us> <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoD9+Ka6S6YRGgGdPu2A6Lx1bKebkKNUN+mOWjg7JMGEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <529CFB2C.2000803@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 01:23 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:14 AM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case that
>> some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be normalized
>> down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many accents, for
>> example.
>
> You can't normalize everything down to a single code point, but you
> can normalize the other way by breaking out everything that can be
> broken out.
>
>>>> print(ascii(unicodedata.normalize("NFKC", "?")))
> '\xe4'
>>>> print(ascii(unicodedata.normalize("NFKD", "?")))
> 'a\u0308'

Well, Stephen was right then!  There's room for a library to handle this situation.  Or is there one already?

--
~Ethan~


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec  2 16:27:23 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:27:23 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us> <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529CFB3B.10504@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 02/12/2013 21:14, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>
>>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
>>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
>>> thing.
>>
>> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
>> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
>>
>> Thanks for this excellent post.
>>
>> --
>> ~Ethan~
>
> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case
> that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be
> normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many
> accents, for example.  In that case, you can't always normalize and use
> the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.
>
A better way of saying it is that there are codepoints for some grapheme
clusters. Those 'precomposed' codepoints exist because some legacy
character sets contained them, and having a one-to-one mapping
encouraged Unicode's adoption.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Dec  2 17:56:57 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:56:57 +1100
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us> <l7it6r$e6e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <7wvbz6oo92.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> writes:

> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the
> case that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't
> be normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many
> accents, for example.

That's true, but doesn't affect the point being made: that one can have
both ?sequence of Unicode code points? in Python's ?unicode? (now ?str?)
type, and also deal with ?sequence of text the reader will see?.

> In that case, you can't always normalize and use the existing string
> methods, but would need more specialized code.

Specialised code may not be needed. It will at least be true that ?any
two code-point sequences which normalise to the same value will be
visually the same for the reader?, which is an important assertion for
addressing the complaints from Mortoray's article.

-- 
 \       ?Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in |
  `\     behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.? ?Ambrose |
_o__)                           Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_, 1906 |
Ben Finney



From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec  3 00:06:26 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 03 Dec 2013 05:06:26 GMT
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3477.1386018871.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <529d66d1$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:

> On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>
>>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
>>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
>>> thing.
>>
>> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
>> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
>>
>> Thanks for this excellent post.
>>
>> --
>> ~Ethan~
> 
> This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case
> that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be
> normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many
> accents, for example.  In that case, you can't always normalize and use
> the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.

That is correct.

If Unicode had a distinct code point for every possible combination of 
base-character plus an arbitrary number of diacritics or accents, the 
0x10FFFF code points wouldn't be anywhere near enough.

I see over 300 diacritics used just in the first 5000 code points. Let's 
pretend that's only 100, and that you can use up to a maximum of 5 at a 
time. That gives 79375496 combinations per base character, much larger 
than the total number of Unicode code points in total.

If anyone wishes to check my logic:

# count distinct combining chars
import unicodedata
s = ''.join(chr(i) for i in range(33, 5000))
s = unicodedata.normalize('NFD', s)
t = [c for c in s if unicodedata.combining(c)]
len(set(t))

# calculate the number of combinations
def comb(r, n):
    """Combinations nCr"""
    p = 1
    for i in range(r+1, n+1):
        p *= i
    for i in range(1, n-r+1):
        p /= i
    return p

sum(comb(i, 100) for i in range(6))


I'm not suggesting that all of those accents are necessarily in use in 
the real world, but there are languages which construct arbitrary 
combinations of accents. (Or so I have been lead to believe.) 


-- 
Steven


From joeedh at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 02:35:29 2013
From: joeedh at gmail.com (joe)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 23:35:29 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529d66d1$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3477.1386018871.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <529d66d1$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAF9ycRNCWiaMhEJTXuivo09Qz5TtGSZi2oLJwk8x+ihjgtmdpg@mail.gmail.com>

How would a grapheme library work? Basic cluster combination, or would
implementing other algorithms (line break, normalizing to a "canonical"
form) be necessary?

How do people use grapheme clusters in non-rendering situations? Or here's
perhaps here's a better question: does anyone know any non-latin (Japanese
and Arabic come to mind)  speakers who use python to process text in their
own language? Who could perhaps tell us what most bugs them about python's
current api and which standard libraries need work.
On Dec 2, 2013 10:10 PM, "Steven D'Aprano" <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
> > On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> >> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
> >>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
> >>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
> >>> thing.
> >>
> >> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
> >> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
> >>
> >> Thanks for this excellent post.
> >>
> >> --
> >> ~Ethan~
> >
> > This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case
> > that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be
> > normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many
> > accents, for example.  In that case, you can't always normalize and use
> > the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.
>
> That is correct.
>
> If Unicode had a distinct code point for every possible combination of
> base-character plus an arbitrary number of diacritics or accents, the
> 0x10FFFF code points wouldn't be anywhere near enough.
>
> I see over 300 diacritics used just in the first 5000 code points. Let's
> pretend that's only 100, and that you can use up to a maximum of 5 at a
> time. That gives 79375496 combinations per base character, much larger
> than the total number of Unicode code points in total.
>
> If anyone wishes to check my logic:
>
> # count distinct combining chars
> import unicodedata
> s = ''.join(chr(i) for i in range(33, 5000))
> s = unicodedata.normalize('NFD', s)
> t = [c for c in s if unicodedata.combining(c)]
> len(set(t))
>
> # calculate the number of combinations
> def comb(r, n):
>     """Combinations nCr"""
>     p = 1
>     for i in range(r+1, n+1):
>         p *= i
>     for i in range(1, n-r+1):
>         p /= i
>     return p
>
> sum(comb(i, 100) for i in range(6))
>
>
> I'm not suggesting that all of those accents are necessarily in use in
> the real world, but there are languages which construct arbitrary
> combinations of accents. (Or so I have been lead to believe.)
>
>
> --
> Steven
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 13:34:59 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 10:34:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529d66d1$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3477.1386018871.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <529d66d1$0$11113$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <e693f9a6-c7d0-428d-84fe-86c59014c6ac@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 3 d?cembre 2013 06:06:26 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a ?crit?:
> On Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:14:13 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > On 12/2/13 3:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> 
> >> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
> 
> >>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
> 
> >>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
> 
> >>> thing.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
> 
> >> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Thanks for this excellent post.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> --
> 
> >> ~Ethan~
> 
> > 
> 
> > This is where my knowledge about Unicode gets fuzzy.  Isn't it the case
> 
> > that some grapheme clusters (or whatever the right word is) can't be
> 
> > normalized down to a single code point?  Characters can accept many
> 
> > accents, for example.  In that case, you can't always normalize and use
> 
> > the existing string methods, but would need more specialized code.
> 
> 
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> If Unicode had a distinct code point for every possible combination of 
> 
> base-character plus an arbitrary number of diacritics or accents, the 
> 
> 0x10FFFF code points wouldn't be anywhere near enough.
> 
> 
> 
> I see over 300 diacritics used just in the first 5000 code points. Let's 
> 
> pretend that's only 100, and that you can use up to a maximum of 5 at a 
> 
> time. That gives 79375496 combinations per base character, much larger 
> 
> than the total number of Unicode code points in total.
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone wishes to check my logic:
> 
> 
> 
> # count distinct combining chars
> 
> import unicodedata
> 
> s = ''.join(chr(i) for i in range(33, 5000))
> 
> s = unicodedata.normalize('NFD', s)
> 
> t = [c for c in s if unicodedata.combining(c)]
> 
> len(set(t))
> 
> 
> 
> # calculate the number of combinations
> 
> def comb(r, n):
> 
>     """Combinations nCr"""
> 
>     p = 1
> 
>     for i in range(r+1, n+1):
> 
>         p *= i
> 
>     for i in range(1, n-r+1):
> 
>         p /= i
> 
>     return p
> 
> 
> 
> sum(comb(i, 100) for i in range(6))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting that all of those accents are necessarily in use in 
> 
> the real world, but there are languages which construct arbitrary 
> 
> combinations of accents. (Or so I have been lead to believe.) 
> 
> 
> 

from one of my libs, bmp only

>>> import fourbiunicode5
>>> print(len(fourbiunicode5.AllCombiningMarks))
240


jmf



From neilc at norwich.edu  Tue Dec  3 08:47:42 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 13:47:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7kndu$i6s$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-02, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests
>> being failures or dubious. If you believe that the native
>> string type should operate on code-points, then you'll think
>> that Python does the right thing.
>
> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on
> "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.

Normalizing doesn't resolve the issues the blog brings up; NFC
can't condense every multi-code-point sequence into one, and
normalizing can lose or mangle information. There are good
examples here: http://unicode.org/reports/tr15/

> Thanks for this excellent post.

Agreed.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec  3 09:26:45 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 06:26:45 -0800
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <529DEA25.2000703@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/02/2013 12:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
>> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
>> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
>> thing.
>
> I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.

Hrmm, well, after being educated ;) I think I may have to reverse my position.  Given that not every cluster can be 
normalized to a single code point perhaps Python is doing it the best possible way.  On the other hand, we have a 
uni*code* type, not a uni*char* type.  Maybe 3.5 can have that.  ;)

At any rate, definitely good to be aware of the issue.

--
~Ethan~


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 08:52:34 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 05:52:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3513.1386082416.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3513.1386082416.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ca8ac2b7-f6a1-4a71-8dae-a4667d6a83b7@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 3 d?cembre 2013 15:26:45 UTC+1, Ethan Furman a ?crit?:
> On 12/02/2013 12:38 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
> 
> > On 11/29/2013 04:44 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Out of the nine tests, Python 3.3 passes six, with three tests being
> 
> >> failures or dubious. If you believe that the native string type should
> 
> >> operate on code-points, then you'll think that Python does the right
> 
> >> thing.
> 
> >
> 
> > I think Python is doing it correctly.  If I want to operate on "clusters" I'll normalize the string first.
> 
> 
> 
> Hrmm, well, after being educated ;) I think I may have to reverse my position.  Given that not every cluster can be 
> 
> normalized to a single code point perhaps Python is doing it the best possible way.  On the other hand, we have a 
> 
> uni*code* type, not a uni*char* type.  Maybe 3.5 can have that.  ;)
> 
> 

------


Yon intuitively pointed a very important feature
of "unicode". However, it is not necessary, this is
exactly what unicode does (when used properly).

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 09:07:34 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 14:07:34 +0000
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
In-Reply-To: <ca8ac2b7-f6a1-4a71-8dae-a4667d6a83b7@googlegroups.com>
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3513.1386082416.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ca8ac2b7-f6a1-4a71-8dae-a4667d6a83b7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7ncul$psk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 13:52, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

[snip all the double spaced stuff]

>
> Yon intuitively pointed a very important feature
> of "unicode". However, it is not necessary, this is
> exactly what unicode does (when used properly).
>
> jmf
>

Presumably using unicode correctly prevents messages being sent across 
the ether with superfluous, extremely irritating double spacing?  Or is 
that down to poor tools in combination with the ignorance of their users?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Dec  4 09:38:40 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:38:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Python Unicode handling wins again -- mostly
References: <529934dc$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <529CEFB1.2030007@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.3513.1386082416.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ca8ac2b7-f6a1-4a71-8dae-a4667d6a83b7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7nepf$422$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-04, wxjmfauth at gmail.com <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yon intuitively pointed a very important feature of "unicode".
> However, it is not necessary, this is exactly what unicode does
> (when used properly).

Unicode only provides character sets. It's not a natural language
parsing facility.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 00:03:17 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 16:03:17 +1100
Subject: Change a file type in Python?
In-Reply-To: <b3249ec1-1ae7-4f15-b127-14cc3bdd1608@googlegroups.com>
References: <d3c7a900-b44a-45da-bab2-9625c01471a7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3428.1385855538.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <db803ec5-9d07-441c-9fa4-ea9ce7292d14@googlegroups.com>
 <37c37e04-87f1-42d3-ae24-0c159281aa46@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3434.1385868471.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3249ec1-1ae7-4f15-b127-14cc3bdd1608@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp0NBtHJBb_+BFHCPeo4EVK+LHOuB71H0PEh+ABQf0W0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 3:58 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we are dealing with 3 completely separable problems:
> [Slightly changing what I earlier wrote?]
>
> 1. Undesirable elements -- spam, troll and more exotic
> 2. Immature noobs -- literally or almost literally kids
> 3. Stupid technology -- in this case, GG
>
> The anti-GG crusade is getting pissed-off with 1 and/or 2 and then
> attacking 3.

Most of it is getting annoyed at the results of 3, and then attacking
3. That's what I do, at least. There have been several people who've
switched to email as a result of being told that their posts are
coming out looking ugly; their posts subsequently are NOT ugly, and
they always had useful content in them, so they become productive and
highly welcome members of the community without being masked behind
buggy technology. Nothing to do with immaturity or spam.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  1 06:20:18 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 01 Dec 2013 11:20:18 GMT
Subject: Change a file type in Python?
References: <d3c7a900-b44a-45da-bab2-9625c01471a7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3428.1385855538.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <db803ec5-9d07-441c-9fa4-ea9ce7292d14@googlegroups.com>
 <37c37e04-87f1-42d3-ae24-0c159281aa46@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3434.1385868471.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3249ec1-1ae7-4f15-b127-14cc3bdd1608@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3435.1385874207.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <529b1b72$0$29993$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 16:03:17 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Most of it is getting annoyed at the results of 3, and then attacking 3.

I know the feeling. I've never trusted 3, I've always felt that it's 
plotting something. And it looks like half an 8, but it's not. What's 
with that?


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  1 06:20:31 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 11:20:31 +0000
Subject: Change a file type in Python?
In-Reply-To: <db803ec5-9d07-441c-9fa4-ea9ce7292d14@googlegroups.com>
References: <d3c7a900-b44a-45da-bab2-9625c01471a7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3428.1385855538.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <db803ec5-9d07-441c-9fa4-ea9ce7292d14@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7f61c$kkp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 01/12/2013 00:04, Eamonn Rea wrote:
> Thanks for the help!
>
> Ok, I'll look into the mailing list.
>

It's very useful, you can even see things in context, which is 
conspicious by its absence above :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence



From jadec375 at msn.com  Sun Dec  1 13:27:16 2013
From: jadec375 at msn.com (jade)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:27:16 +0000
Subject: Checking Common File Types
Message-ID: <DUB114-W56EEA08576BBC592BFF8029DEB0@phx.gbl>

Hello, 
I'm trying to create a script that checks all the files in my 'downloaded' directory against common file types and then tells me how many of the files in that directory aren't either a GIF or a JPG file. I'm familiar with basic Python but this is the first time I've attempted anything like this and I'm looking for a little help or a point in the right direction? 

file_sigs = {'\xFF\xD8\xFF':('JPEG','jpg'),  '\x47\x49\x46':('GIF','gif')}
def readFile():    filename = r'c:/temp/downloads'      fh = open(filename, 'r')     file_sig = fh.read(4) print '[*] check_sig() File:',filename #, 'Hash Sig:', binascii.hexlify(file_sig) 
RegardsJade



 
  		 	   		  
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 17:49:54 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 09:49:54 +1100
Subject: Checking Common File Types
In-Reply-To: <DUB114-W56EEA08576BBC592BFF8029DEB0@phx.gbl>
References: <DUB114-W56EEA08576BBC592BFF8029DEB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqOq6c3ucnG4dpGBPNrFpsgERGTMG6Hb9Ax9UgmihFUaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 5:27 AM, jade <jadec375 at msn.com> wrote:
> file_sigs = {'\xFF\xD8\xFF':('JPEG','jpg'),
>  '\x47\x49\x46':('GIF','gif')}
>
>     file_sig = fh.read(4)

You're reading in four bytes, but your signatures are three bytes long. :)

After that, all you need to do is look up file_sig in the file_sigs
dictionary, and see if anything's there. Look at the Python docs for
the dict type; there's an easy way to do this.

ChrisA


From jadec375 at msn.com  Sun Dec  1 18:41:15 2013
From: jadec375 at msn.com (jade)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 23:41:15 +0000
Subject: Checking Common File Types
In-Reply-To: <t4gn9957ti56uv6kfs7dim9qjn8aoceaab@4ax.com>
References: <DUB114-W56EEA08576BBC592BFF8029DEB0@phx.gbl>,
 <t4gn9957ti56uv6kfs7dim9qjn8aoceaab@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <DUB114-W82B0BD96964228C839F3579DEB0@phx.gbl>



> To: python-list at python.org
> From: wlfraed at ix.netcom.com
> Subject: Re: Checking Common File Types
> Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:23:22 -0500
> 
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:27:16 +0000, jade <jadec375 at msn.com> declaimed the
> following:
> 
> >Hello, 
> >I'm trying to create a script that checks all the files in my 'downloaded' directory against common file types and then tells me how many of the files in that directory aren't either a GIF or a JPG file. I'm familiar with basic Python but this is the first time I've attempted anything like this and I'm looking for a little help or a point in the right direction? 
> >
> >file_sigs = {'\xFF\xD8\xFF':('JPEG','jpg'),  '\x47\x49\x46':('GIF','gif')}
> 
> 	Apparently you presume the file extensions are inaccurate, as you are
> digging into the files for signatures.
> 
> >def readFile():    filename = r'c:/temp/downloads'      fh = open(filename, 'r')     file_sig = fh.read(4) print '[*] check_sig() File:',filename #, 'Hash Sig:', binascii.hexlify(file_sig) 
> 
> 	Note: if you are hardcoding forward slashes, you don't need the raw
> indicator...
> 
> 	That said, what is "c:/temp/downloads"? You apparently are opening IT
> as the file to be examined. Is it supposed to be a directory containing
> many files, a file containing a list of files, ???
> 
> 	What is "check_sig" -- it looks like a function you haven't defined --
> but it's inside the quotes making a string literal that will never be
> called anyway.
> 
> 	If you are just concerned with one directory of files, you might want
> to read the help file on the glob module, along with os.path
> (join/splitext/etc). Or just string methods...
> 
> >>> import glob
> >>> import os.path
> >>> TARGET = os.path.join(os.environ["USERPROFILE"],
> ... 	"documents/BW-conversion/*")
> >>> TARGET = os.path.join(os.environ["USERPROFILE"],
> ... 	"documents/BW-conversion/*")
> >>> files = glob.glob(TARGET)
> >>> for fn in files:
> ... 	fp, fx = os.path.splitext(fn)
> ... 	print "File %s purports to be of type %s" % (fn, fx.upper())
> ... 
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-1.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-2.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-3.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-4.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BWConv.html purports to be
> of type .HTML
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b1.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b2.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b3.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b4.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b5.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b6.jpg purports to be of
> type .JPG
> File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_col.jpg purports to be
> of type .JPG
> >>> 
> -- 
> 	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



Hi, thanks for all your replies. I realised pretty soon after I asked for help that I was trying to read the wrong amount of bytes and set about completely rewriting my code (after a coffee break)
import sys, os, binascii
def readfile():

    dictionary = {'474946':('GIF', 'gif'), 'ffd8ff':('JPEG', 'jpeg')}    try:        files = os.listdir('C:\\Temp\\downloads')                for item in files:            f = open('C:\\Temp\\downloads\\'+ item, 'r')            file_sig = f.read(3)            file_sig_hex = binascii.hexlify(file_sig)                                    if file_sig_hex in dictionary:                print item + ' is a image file, it is a ' + file_sig
            else:                print item + ' is not an image file, it is' +file_sig
            print file_sig_hex
    
    except:        print 'Error. Try again'
    finally:        if 'f' in locals():            f.close()
def main():     readfile()
if __name__ == '__main__':    main()
As of right now my script prints out 'Error Try again' but when i comment out this part of the code;
          if file_sig_hex in dictionary:                print item + ' is a image file' + dictionary 
            else:                print item + ' is not an image file, is it' +dictionary 
            
it prints the file signatures to the screen, however what I'm trying to do with the if statement is tell me if the file is an image and give me is signature and if it is not, I want it to tell me and still give me it's signature and tell me what type of file it is. Can anyone point out an obvious error? 
RegardsJade 		 	   		  
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From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 22:05:42 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 19:05:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Checking Common File Types
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3456.1385951512.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <DUB114-W56EEA08576BBC592BFF8029DEB0@phx.gbl>,>
 <t4gn9957ti56uv6kfs7dim9qjn8aoceaab@4ax.com>
 <mailman.3456.1385951512.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bc36c749-bdb5-4e0b-b96c-8f2727d7b5a8@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 2, 2013 5:11:15 AM UTC+5:30, jade wrote:
> > To: pytho... at python.org
> > From: wlf... at ix.netcom.com
> > Subject: Re: Checking Common File Types
> > Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:23:22 -0500
> > 
> > On Sun, 1 Dec 2013 18:27:16 +0000, jade <jade... at msn.com> declaimed the
> > following:
> > 
> > >Hello, 
> > >I'm trying to create a script that checks all the files in my 'downloaded' directory against common file types and then tells me how many of the files in that directory aren't either a GIF or a JPG file. I'm familiar with basic Python but this is the first time I've attempted anything like this and I'm looking for a little help or a point in the right direction? 
> > >
> > >file_sigs = {'\xFF\xD8\xFF':('JPEG','jpg'),  '\x47\x49\x46':('GIF','gif')}
> > 
> > 	Apparently you presume the file extensions are inaccurate, as you are
> > digging into the files for signatures.
> > 
> > >def readFile():    filename = r'c:/temp/downloads'      fh = open(filename, 'r')     file_sig = fh.read(4) print '[*] check_sig() File:',filename #, 'Hash Sig:', binascii.hexlify(file_sig) 
> > 
> > 	Note: if you are hardcoding forward slashes, you don't need the raw
> > indicator...
> > 
> > 	That said, what is "c:/temp/downloads"? You apparently are opening IT
> > as the file to be examined. Is it supposed to be a directory containing
> > many files, a file containing a list of files, ???
> > 
> > 	What is "check_sig" -- it looks like a function you haven't defined --
> > but it's inside the quotes making a string literal that will never be
> > called anyway.
> > 
> > 	If you are just concerned with one directory of files, you might want
> > to read the help file on the glob module, along with os.path
> > (join/splitext/etc). Or just string methods...
> > 
> > >>> import glob
> > >>> import os.path
> > >>> TARGET = os.path.join(os.environ["USERPROFILE"],
> > ... 	"documents/BW-conversion/*")
> > >>> TARGET = os.path.join(os.environ["USERPROFILE"],
> > ... 	"documents/BW-conversion/*")
> > >>> files = glob.glob(TARGET)
> > >>> for fn in files:
> > ... 	fp, fx = os.path.splitext(fn)
> > ... 	print "File %s purports to be of type %s" % (fn, fx.upper())
> > ... 
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-1.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-2.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-3.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BW-4.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\BWConv.html purports to be
> > of type .HTML
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b1.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b2.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b3.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b4.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b5.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_b6.jpg purports to be of
> > type .JPG
> > File C:\Users\Wulfraed\documents/BW-conversion\roo_col.jpg purports to be
> > of type .JPG
> > >>> 
> > -- 
> > 	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
> >     wlf... at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
> > 
> > -- 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>
> Hi, thanks for all your replies. I realised pretty soon after I asked for help that I was trying to read the wrong amount of bytes and set about completely rewriting my code (after a coffee break)
>
> import sys, os, binascii
>
> def readfile():
>
>
> ? ? dictionary = {'474946':('GIF', 'gif'), 'ffd8ff':('JPEG', 'jpeg')}
> ? ? try:
> ? ? ? ? files = os.listdir('C:\\Temp\\downloads') ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? for item in files:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? f = open('C:\\Temp\\downloads\\'+ item, 'r')
> ? ? ? ? ? ? file_sig = f.read(3)
> ? ? ? ? ? ? file_sig_hex = binascii.hexlify(file_sig)
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
> ? ? ? ? ? ? if file_sig_hex in dictionary:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? print item + ' is a image file, it is a ' + file_sig
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? else:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? print item + ' is not an image file, it is' +file_sig
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? print file_sig_hex
>
> ? ??
>
> ? ? except:
> ? ? ? ? print 'Error. Try again'
>
> ? ? finally:
> ? ? ? ? if 'f' in locals():
> ? ? ? ? ? ? f.close()
>
> def main():
> ?
> ? ? readfile()
>
> if __name__ == '__main__':
> ? ? main()
>
> As of right now my script prints out 'Error Try again' but when i comment out this part of the code;
>
> ? ? ? ? ? if file_sig_hex in dictionary:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? print item + ' is a image file' + dictionary?
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ? else:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? print item + ' is not an image file, is it' +dictionary?
>
> ? ? ? ? ? ??
>
> it prints the file signatures to the screen, however what I'm trying to do with the if statement is tell me if the file is an image and give me is signature and if it is not, I want it to tell me and still give me it's signature and tell me what type of file it is. Can anyone point out an obvious error??


You are catching all exceptions -- that garbages all the debugging finesse that python offers you. Dont.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10594113/bad-idea-to-catch-all-exceptions-in-python

On a different note: You seem to be using google groups.
It causes some nuisance to people:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

Heres a more automated solution 

see my post here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.python/Cf6adRN3KGs


From grumsk at grumsk.tz  Sun Dec  1 14:18:58 2013
From: grumsk at grumsk.tz (G.)
Date: 01 Dec 2013 19:18:58 GMT
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
Message-ID: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I tried:
  class test(function):
    def test(self):
      print("test")
but I get an error. Is it possible ?

Regards, G.


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec  1 14:30:24 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 14:30:24 -0500
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <roy-95D382.14302401122013@news.panix.com>

In article <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc at news.free.fr>,
 "G." <grumsk at grumsk.tz> wrote:

> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I 
> tried:
>   class test(function):
>     def test(self):
>       print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?
> 
> Regards, G.

It really helps to give us some basic information when asking questions.  
To start, what version of Python are you using, and what error message 
do you get?

At least in Python 2 (but, I'm guessing, maybe, you're using Python 3, 
since you put parens in your print() statement?), there is no built-in 
class called "function".  There are built-in functions, and they are of 
type builtin_function_or_method.  When I try to subclass that by doing:

class foo(type(open)):
    pass

I get:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases
    type 'builtin_function_or_method' is not an acceptable base type

So, we're back to asking what version you're using and what error 
message you got.


From grumsk at grumsk.tz  Sun Dec  1 14:37:46 2013
From: grumsk at grumsk.tz (G.)
Date: 01 Dec 2013 19:37:46 GMT
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <roy-95D382.14302401122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <529b900a$0$3626$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 01-12-2013, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> a ?crit?:
>
> class foo(type(open)):
>     pass
>
> I get:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases
>     type 'builtin_function_or_method' is not an acceptable base type
>
> So, we're back to asking what version you're using and what error 
> message you got.

Hi, I don't care that much for the version, since I wanted rather to perform
some tests. I tried your code with various versions and got the same message
than yours. Thus I guess the type can't be extended. Regards, G.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec  1 14:43:59 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 13:43:59 -0600
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
In-Reply-To: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <20131201134359.77c0afb8@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-01 19:18, G. wrote:
> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in
> class. I tried: class test(function):
>     def test(self):
>       print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?

While I don't have an answer, I did find this interesting.  First,
"function" doesn't seem to be in the default __buitin__ namespace:

  >>> function
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  NameError: name 'function' is not defined

I presume you're doing it with the following:

  >>> from types import FunctionType
  >>> class MyFunc(FunctionType):
  ...     pass
  ... 
  Traceback (most recent call last):
    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  TypeError: Error when calling the metaclass bases
      type 'function' is not an acceptable base type

but, as you mention, the inability to subclass it is somewhat
peculiar.  It appears to be metaclass-related.

I'm not quite sure *why* one might want to subclass FunctionType, but
I'm also not sure why you should be *prevented* from subclassing it.

-tkc




From robert.kern at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 15:18:37 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 20:18:37 +0000
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
In-Reply-To: <20131201134359.77c0afb8@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <20131201134359.77c0afb8@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <l7g5ii$f9g$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-01 19:43, Tim Chase wrote:

> I'm not quite sure *why* one might want to subclass FunctionType, but
> I'm also not sure why you should be *prevented* from subclassing it.

Previously:

http://grokbase.com/t/python/python-list/033r5nks47/type-function-does-not-subtype#20030324rcnwbkfedhzbaf3vmiuer3z4xq

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Sun Dec  1 14:38:57 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2013 11:38:57 -0800
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
In-Reply-To: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <529B9051.80606@islandtraining.com>

On 12/01/2013 11:18 AM, G. wrote:
> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I tried:
>    class test(function):
>      def test(self):
>        print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?
>
> Regards, G.

What error do you get?
What version of Python?
What OS?

And in particular: What 'function' built-in class?  I know of no such 
thing, and the error message I get with your code says exactly that:
   NameError: name 'function' is not defined
Did you not get that same error?

All of which begs the questions: What do you think the function class 
is, and why are you trying to extend it?

Gary Herron



From grumsk at grumsk.tz  Sun Dec  1 15:13:52 2013
From: grumsk at grumsk.tz (G.)
Date: 01 Dec 2013 20:13:52 GMT
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <mailman.3440.1385927196.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <529b9880$0$2241$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 01-12-2013, Gary Herron <gary.herron at islandtraining.com> a ?crit?:
> And in particular: What 'function' built-in class?  I know of no such 
> thing, and the error message I get with your code says exactly that:
>    NameError: name 'function' is not defined
> Did you not get that same error?

Yes, indeed. The 'function' built-in class was the following one:
>>> type(lambda x: 2*x)
<type 'function'>

but I am interested by answers concerning other similar types also.

Regards, G.


From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 20:26:50 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 17:26:50 -0800
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
In-Reply-To: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr-a5_2UCVb=vvhKkzFMw1oFLXfsk8m=XL9n4u22DXRUGg@mail.gmail.com>

> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I tried:
>   class test(function):
>     def test(self):
>       print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?

It has to do with differing models of computation, and python isn't
designed for this.  Perhaps you're searching for the ultimate lambda?.
-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  1 21:24:10 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 12:24:10 +1000
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
In-Reply-To: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <l7gr0e$3ge$1@dont-email.me>

On 2/12/2013 5:18 AM, G. wrote:
> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I tried:
>    class test(function):
>      def test(self):
>        print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?

Others have pointed out that you cannot subclass the function type. 
Could you explain what you're trying to achieve? It's possible you could 
use a decorator instead:

     def test(fn):
         def _test():
             print('test')
         fn.test = _test
         return fn

     @test
     def foo():
         pass

     >>> foo.test()
     test

(Note that I've only included _test inside the decorator to show that 
you can create a closure to include the wrapped function, as a way of 
replicating 'self' in your class definition.)


From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  2 02:01:41 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 02 Dec 2013 07:01:41 GMT
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <529c3055$0$2869$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 01 Dec 2013 19:18:58 +0000, G. wrote:

> Hi, I can't figure out how I can extend the 'function' built-in class. I
> tried:
>   class test(function):
>     def test(self):
>       print("test")
> but I get an error. Is it possible ?


You cannot subclass the function type directly, but you can extend 
functions.

Firstly, rather than subclassing, you can use delegation and composition. 
Google for more info on delegation and composition as an alternative to 
subclassing:

https://duckduckgo.com/html/?q=delegation%20as%20alternative%20to%
20subclassing


You can also add attributes to functions:

def spam():
    pass

spam.eggs = 23


Want to add a method to a function? You can do that too:

from types import MethodType
spam.method = MethodType(
    lambda self, n: "%s got %d as arg" % (self.__name__, n),
    spam)


It's even simpler if it doesn't need to be a method:

spam.function = lambda n: "spam got %d as arg" % n)

Want more complex behaviour? Write a callable class:

class MyCallable(object):
    def __call__(self, arg):
        pass

func = MyCallable()



There are plenty of ways to extend functions. Subclassing isn't one of 
them.



-- 
Steven


From grumsk at grumsk.tz  Mon Dec  2 04:32:48 2013
From: grumsk at grumsk.tz (G.)
Date: 02 Dec 2013 09:32:48 GMT
Subject: Extending the 'function' built-in class
References: <529b8ba2$0$2270$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <529c3055$0$2869$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <529c53c0$0$2150$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 02-12-2013, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> a ?crit?:
> There are plenty of ways to extend functions. Subclassing isn't one of 
> them.

Thank you very mych for your complete answer; I falled back to your last
proposal by myself in my attempts; I am happyt to learn about the other ways
also.

Regards, G.


From martin914k at hotmail.com  Sun Dec  1 16:59:07 2013
From: martin914k at hotmail.com (martin koh)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 05:59:07 +0800
Subject: wiimote IR tracking in python
Message-ID: <BAY175-W16C7FE999B3BA99388FBFB95EB0@phx.gbl>

Hi all..may i know how to do the IR tracking by using wiimote? i did tried the source code from 
(http://ph-elec.com/archives/simple-python-wii-mote-test/) using command prompt but i can't compile successfully, i think is because i don't have any idea how to import the cwiid module. Can anyone please provide me some informations about this? Thanks so much.
 		 	   		  
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From mailman at hanez.org  Sun Dec  1 17:05:43 2013
From: mailman at hanez.org (Johannes Findeisen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 23:05:43 +0100
Subject: wiimote IR tracking in python
In-Reply-To: <BAY175-W16C7FE999B3BA99388FBFB95EB0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY175-W16C7FE999B3BA99388FBFB95EB0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20131201230543.7e4ed7be@hanez.org>

On Mon, 2 Dec 2013 05:59:07 +0800
martin koh wrote:

> Hi all..may i know how to do the IR tracking by using wiimote? i did tried the source code from 
> (http://ph-elec.com/archives/simple-python-wii-mote-test/) using command prompt but i can't compile successfully, i think is because i don't have any idea how to import the cwiid module. Can anyone please provide me some informations about this? Thanks so much.

Did you took a look here: http://abstrakraft.org/cwiid/ ?

There you find the sources and installation instructions in a README
file.

--Johannes


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Dec  2 06:34:46 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 03:34:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
Message-ID: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>

I have few wav files that I can use either of the following command line mentioned here
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/How%20to%20concatenate%20%28join,%20merge%29%20media%20files
 to concatenate


ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav


anyone know how to convert either of them to work with python's subprocess module, it would be better if your solution is platform independent .


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 06:40:52 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 22:40:52 +1100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> I have few wav files that I can use either of the following command line mentioned here
> https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/How%20to%20concatenate%20%28join,%20merge%29%20media%20files
>  to concatenate
>
>
> ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
> ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
> ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav

In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg. So
if you work out what the commands are doing (it looks like they emit a
line saying "file '...'" for each .wav file in the current directory,
possibly including subdirectories) and replicate that in Python, you
should be able to make it cross-platform.

ChrisA


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Dec  2 16:19:21 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 08:19:21 +1100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wzjojne7a.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav
>
> In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
> inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg.

Not standard input, no. What it does is create a temporary file to
contain the result, and inserts that file name on the command line. This
is good for programs that require an actual file, not standard input.

So the above usage seems right to me: the ?ffmpeg -i FOO? option is
provided with a filename dynamically created by Bash, referring to a
temporary file that contains the output of the subshell.

-- 
 \     ?Welchen Teil von ?Gestalt? verstehen Sie nicht?  [What part of |
  `\                ?gestalt? don't you understand?]? ?Karsten M. Self |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 16:25:01 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:25:01 +1100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <7wzjojne7a.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wzjojne7a.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr=TjNJsnwD1L6J=QWdM4NnDhrgTtwRJs76CewoMVxKyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 8:19 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav
>>
>> In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
>> inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg.
>
> Not standard input, no. What it does is create a temporary file to
> contain the result, and inserts that file name on the command line. This
> is good for programs that require an actual file, not standard input.

Ah, sorry, my bad - bit rusty on my arcane bashisms. In any case, the
general point of what I was saying is: Figure out what's happening,
and replicate that. In this case, that means creating a file, then,
rather than putting it on stdin - that's probably actually easier
anyway.

ChrisA


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Dec  2 20:15:42 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 17:15:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?3????UTC+8??5?19?21??Ben Finney???
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> 
> > > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
> 
> > > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
> 
> > > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav
> 
> >
> 
> > In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
> 
> > inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg.
> 
> 
> 
> Not standard input, no. What it does is create a temporary file to
> 
> contain the result, and inserts that file name on the command line. This
> 
> is good for programs that require an actual file, not standard input.
> 
> 
> 
> So the above usage seems right to me: the ?ffmpeg -i FOO? option is
> 
> provided with a filename dynamically created by Bash, referring to a
> 
> temporary file that contains the output of the subshell.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  \     ?Welchen Teil von ?Gestalt? verstehen Sie nicht?  [What part of |
> 
>   `\                ?gestalt? don't you understand?]? ?Karsten M. Self |
> 
> _o__)                                                                  |
> 
> Ben Finney

so is there any way to create a temporary file by Python here ?


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 20:42:11 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 17:42:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:45:42 AM UTC+5:30, iMath wrote:
> so is there any way to create a temporary file by Python here ?

http://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Tue Dec  3 20:42:35 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:42:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0ac025f1-242e-492a-a77b-621a7f585182@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?3????UTC+8??9?42?11??rusi???
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:45:42 AM UTC+5:30, iMath wrote:
> 
> > so is there any way to create a temporary file by Python here ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html
I use the following code to do the test ,but error occurred ,it prompts system cannot find specified files ,but the files are indeed exists there ,any help ?

with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
    fp.write(("file '"+'a1.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
    fp.write(("file '"+'a2.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))

    subprocess.call(['ffmpeg/ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp, '-c',  'copy', 'a3.mp3'])


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Tue Dec  3 20:42:45 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:42:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?3????UTC+8??9?42?11??rusi???
> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:45:42 AM UTC+5:30, iMath wrote:
> 
> > so is there any way to create a temporary file by Python here ?
> 
> 
> 
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/tempfile.html
I use the following code to do the test ,but error occurred ,it prompts system cannot find specified files ,but the files are indeed exists there ,any help ?

with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
    fp.write(("file '"+'a1.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
    fp.write(("file '"+'a2.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))

    subprocess.call(['ffmpeg/ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp, '-c',  'copy', 'a3.mp3'])


From andipersti at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 04:38:27 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:38:27 +0100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>

iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
>I use the following code to do the test ,but error occurred ,it
>prompts system cannot find specified files ,but the files are indeed
>exists there ,any help ?
>
>with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
>    fp.write(("file '"+'a1.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
>    fp.write(("file '"+'a2.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
>
>    subprocess.call(['ffmpeg/ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp, '-c',
> 'copy', 'a3.mp3'])

Basic rule: Always copy'n'paste the exact traceback you get.

I don't think you are running the code you have posted because your
subprocess call doesn't work:

>>> import tempfile, subprocess
>>> with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
...   subprocess.call(["foo", "bar", fp, "baz"])
... 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 2, in <module>
  File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 520, in call
    with Popen(*popenargs, **kwargs) as p:
  File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 820, in __init__
    restore_signals, start_new_session)
  File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 1380, in _execute_child
    restore_signals, start_new_session, preexec_fn)
TypeError: Can't convert '_io.BufferedRandom' object to str implicitly

"fp" is a file object, but subprocess expects a list of strings as
its first argument.

Bye, Andreas


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 05:51:49 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 21:51:49 +1100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqDcmdT-VA5jXmnXCGVk8yTSRS8uauJ3axMcLwnZfGzTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Andreas Perstinger <andipersti at gmail.com> wrote:
> "fp" is a file object, but subprocess expects a list of strings as
> its first argument.

More fundamentally: The subprocess's arguments must include the *name*
of the file. This means you can't use TemporaryFile at all, as it's
not guaranteed to return an object that actually has a file name.

There's another problem, too, and that's that you're not closing the
file before expecting the subprocess to open it. And once you do that,
you'll find that the file no longer exists once it's been closed. In
fact, you'll need to research the tempfile module a bit to be able to
do what you want here; rather than spoon-feed you an exact solution,
I'll just say that there is one, and it can be found here:

http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/tempfile.html

ChrisA


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Fri Dec  6 09:54:38 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 06:54:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3554.1386154312.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
 <mailman.3554.1386154312.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <60f2e393-658c-4e18-85b1-fc7d0b07ddb4@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?4????UTC+8??6?51?49??Chris Angelico???
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:38 PM, Andreas Perstinger <andipersti at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > "fp" is a file object, but subprocess expects a list of strings as
> 
> > its first argument.
> 
> 
> 
> More fundamentally: The subprocess's arguments must include the *name*
> 
> of the file. This means you can't use TemporaryFile at all, as it's
> 
> not guaranteed to return an object that actually has a file name.
> 
> 
> 
> There's another problem, too, and that's that you're not closing the
> 
> file before expecting the subprocess to open it. And once you do that,
> 
> you'll find that the file no longer exists once it's been closed. In
> 
> fact, you'll need to research the tempfile module a bit to be able to
> 
> do what you want here; rather than spoon-feed you an exact solution,
> 
> I'll just say that there is one, and it can be found here:
> 
> 
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/tempfile.html
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA

I think you mean I should create a temporary file by NamedTemporaryFile(). After tried it many times, I found there is nearly no convenience in creating a temporary file or a persistent one here ,because we couldn't use the temporary file while it has not been closed ,so we couldn't depend on the convenience of letting the temporary file automatically delete itself when closing, we have to delete it later by os.remove() after it has been used in that command line.

code without the with statement is here ,but it is wrong ,it shows this line 

c:\docume~1\admini~1\locals~1\temp\tmp0d8959: Invalid data found when processing input


    fp=tempfile.NamedTemporaryFile(delete=False)
    fp.write(("file '"+fileName1+"'\n").encode('utf-8')) 
    fp.write(("file '"+fileName2+"'\n").encode('utf-8')) 
    

    subprocess.call(['ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp.name, '-c',  'copy', fileName])
    fp.close()


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 09:59:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 01:59:43 +1100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <60f2e393-658c-4e18-85b1-fc7d0b07ddb4@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
 <mailman.3554.1386154312.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <60f2e393-658c-4e18-85b1-fc7d0b07ddb4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpg2KmNoFXeKLMZzx+qzfL=w3dgmFL8=0P3vSuo=hTCZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:54 AM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
>     fp=tempfile.NamedTemporaryFile(delete=False)
>     fp.write(("file '"+fileName1+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
>     fp.write(("file '"+fileName2+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
>
>
>     subprocess.call(['ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp.name, '-c',  'copy', fileName])
>     fp.close()

You need to close the file before getting the other process to use it.
Otherwise, it may not be able to open the file at all, and even if it
can, you might find that not all the data has been written.

But congrats! You have successfully found the points I was directing
you to. Yes, I was hinting that you need NamedTemporaryFile, the .name
attribute, and delete=False. Good job!

ChrisA


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Mon Dec  9 04:04:14 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 01:04:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3652.1386341991.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
 <mailman.3554.1386154312.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <60f2e393-658c-4e18-85b1-fc7d0b07ddb4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3652.1386341991.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6030eab0-17f7-4b7b-b057-d0889031b3d2@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?6????UTC+8??10?59?43??Chris Angelico???
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:54 AM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> 
> >     fp=tempfile.NamedTemporaryFile(delete=False)
> 
> >     fp.write(("file '"+fileName1+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
> 
> >     fp.write(("file '"+fileName2+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >     subprocess.call(['ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp.name, '-c',  'copy', fileName])
> 
> >     fp.close()
> 
> 
> 
> You need to close the file before getting the other process to use it.
> 
> Otherwise, it may not be able to open the file at all, and even if it
> 
> can, you might find that not all the data has been written.
> 
> 
> 
> But congrats! You have successfully found the points I was directing
> 
> you to. Yes, I was hinting that you need NamedTemporaryFile, the .name
> 
> attribute, and delete=False. Good job!
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA

we don't have permission to use the temporary file while it has not been closed,but when the file is closed , it will be destroyed by default(delete=True),but once we set delete=False,then we couldn't depend on the convenience of letting the temporary file automatically delete itself after it has been used(then we have to delete it later by os.remove()) ,thus there is nearly no convenience in creating a temporary file or a persistent one when using NamedTemporaryFile.

I think this is a design flaw and should be improved like this :when delete=True,the file should be removed upon destruction of the object or on function return or on garbage collected,only when delete=False,the file can remain on the disk .


From andipersti at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 07:59:47 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:59:47 +0100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <6030eab0-17f7-4b7b-b057-d0889031b3d2@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204103827.6c5332c6@Hof>
 <mailman.3554.1386154312.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <60f2e393-658c-4e18-85b1-fc7d0b07ddb4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3652.1386341991.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <6030eab0-17f7-4b7b-b057-d0889031b3d2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131210135947.26115916@Hof>

iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
>we don't have permission to use the temporary file while it has not
>been closed,but when the file is closed , it will be destroyed by
>default(delete=True),but once we set delete=False,then we couldn't
>depend on the convenience of letting the temporary file automatically
>delete itself after it has been used(then we have to delete it later
>by os.remove()) ,thus there is nearly no convenience in creating a
>temporary file or a persistent one when using NamedTemporaryFile.

In your OP you asked for a platform independent solution thus I don't
think it's possible to do what you want if the OS doesn't support
opening a file another time while it's still open.

Otherwise, on my Linux system this works:

>>> import tempfile, subprocess
>>> with tempfile.NamedTemporaryFile() as fp:                                   
...   fp.write(b"foo\nbar\nbaz\n")
...   fp.flush()
...   subprocess.call(["cat", fp.name])
... 
12
foo
bar
baz
0

Bye, Andreas


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Fri Dec  6 01:23:48 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 22:23:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?4????UTC+8??5?38?27??Andreas Perstinger???
> iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> 
> >I use the following code to do the test ,but error occurred ,it
> 
> >prompts system cannot find specified files ,but the files are indeed
> 
> >exists there ,any help ?
> 
> >
> 
> >with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
> 
> >    fp.write(("file '"+'a1.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
> 
> >    fp.write(("file '"+'a2.mp3'+"'\n").encode('utf-8'))
> 
> >
> 
> >    subprocess.call(['ffmpeg/ffmpeg', '-f', 'concat','-i',fp, '-c',
> 
> > 'copy', 'a3.mp3'])
> 
> 
> 
> Basic rule: Always copy'n'paste the exact traceback you get.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you are running the code you have posted because your
> 
> subprocess call doesn't work:
> 
> 
> 
> >>> import tempfile, subprocess
> 
> >>> with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
> 
> ...   subprocess.call(["foo", "bar", fp, "baz"])
> 
> ... 
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
>   File "<stdin>", line 2, in <module>
> 
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 520, in call
> 
>     with Popen(*popenargs, **kwargs) as p:
> 
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 820, in __init__
> 
>     restore_signals, start_new_session)
> 
>   File "/usr/lib/python3.3/subprocess.py", line 1380, in _execute_child
> 
>     restore_signals, start_new_session, preexec_fn)
> 
> TypeError: Can't convert '_io.BufferedRandom' object to str implicitly
> 
> 
> 
> "fp" is a file object, but subprocess expects a list of strings as
> 
> its first argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Bye, Andreas
sorry for my fuss.
it prompts 
StdErr: -c: No such file or directory


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 04:23:59 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 09:23:59 +0000
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7s52p$bc3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 06:23, iMath wrote:

Dearest iMath, wouldst thou be kind enough to partake of obtaining some 
type of email client that dost not sendeth double spaced data into this 
most illustrious of mailing lists/newsgroups.  Thanking thee for thine 
participation in my most humble of requests.  I do remain your most 
obedient servant.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec  6 06:31:17 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 06:31:17 -0500
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <l7s52p$bc3$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <l7s52p$bc3$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7schq$2l0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/6/13 4:23 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 06:23, iMath wrote:
>
> Dearest iMath, wouldst thou be kind enough to partake of obtaining some
> type of email client that dost not sendeth double spaced data into this
> most illustrious of mailing lists/newsgroups.  Thanking thee for thine
> participation in my most humble of requests.  I do remain your most
> obedient servant.
>

iMath seems to be a native Chinese speaker.  I think this message, 
though amusing, will be baffling and won't have any effect...

--Ned.



From redstone-cold at 163.com  Fri Dec  6 09:52:48 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 06:52:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?6????UTC+8??5?23?59??Mark Lawrence???
> On 06/12/2013 06:23, iMath wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Dearest iMath, wouldst thou be kind enough to partake of obtaining some 
> 
> type of email client that dost not sendeth double spaced data into this 
> 
> most illustrious of mailing lists/newsgroups.  Thanking thee for thine 
> 
> participation in my most humble of requests.  I do remain your most 
> 
> obedient servant.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> 
> what you can do for our language.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark Lawrence

yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ?
your english is a little strange to me .


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 10:12:02 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:12:02 +0000
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7spft$hq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 14:52, iMath wrote:
> ? 2013?12?6????UTC+8??5?23?59??Mark Lawrence???
>> On 06/12/2013 06:23, iMath wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Dearest iMath, wouldst thou be kind enough to partake of obtaining some
>>
>> type of email client that dost not sendeth double spaced data into this
>>
>> most illustrious of mailing lists/newsgroups.  Thanking thee for thine
>>
>> participation in my most humble of requests.  I do remain your most
>>
>> obedient servant.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>>
>> what you can do for our language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Lawrence
>
> yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ?
> your english is a little strange to me .
>

You can see the extra lines inserted by google groups above.  It's not 
too bad in one and only one message, but when a message has been 
backwards and forwards several times it's extremely irritating, or worse 
still effectively unreadable.  Work arounds have been posted on this 
list, but I'd recommend using any decent email client.

The English I used was archaic, please ignore it :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 10:13:12 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:13:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <474cfa20-3618-4426-9635-903b9255dc07@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:22:48 PM UTC+5:30, iMath wrote:
> ? 2013?12?6????UTC+8??5?23?59??Mark Lawrence???
> > On 06/12/2013 06:23, iMath wrote:
> > Dearest iMath, wouldst thou be kind enough to partake of obtaining some 
> > type of email client that dost not sendeth double spaced data into this 
> > most illustrious of mailing lists/newsgroups.  Thanking thee for thine 
> > participation in my most humble of requests.  I do remain your most 
> > obedient servant.

> yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ?

Yes but its easily correctable

I recently answered this question to another poster here

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/comp.lang.python/rusi$20google$20groups|sort:date/comp.lang.python/C51hEvi-KbY/KSeaMFoHtcIJ


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 10:15:43 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 07:15:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3653.1386342746.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3653.1386342746.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <62811266-35c5-4401-851a-91c3ce622ad0@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 8:42:02 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> The English I used was archaic, please ignore it :)

"Archaic" is almost archaic
"Old" is ever-young

:D


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec  6 10:34:11 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 06 Dec 2013 15:34:11 GMT
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 06:52:48 -0800, iMath wrote:

> yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google
> Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ? your
> english is a little strange to me .

Mark is writing in fake old-English style, the way people think English 
was spoken a thousand years ago. I don't know why he did that. Perhaps he 
thought it was amusing.

There are many problems with Google Groups. If you pay attention to this 
forum, you will see dozens of posts about "Managing Google Groups 
headaches" and other complaints:

- Google Groups double-spaces replies, so text which should appear like:

    line one
    line two
    line three
    line four

  turns into:

    line one
    blank line
    line two
    blank line
    line three
    blank line
    line four

- Google Groups often starts sending HTML code instead of plain text

- it often mangles indentation, which is terrible for Python code

- sometimes it automatically sets the reply address for posts to go
  to Google Groups, instead of the mailing list it should go to

- almost all of the spam on his forum comes from Google Groups, so many 
  people automatically filter everything from Google Groups straight to
  the trash.

There are alternatives to Google Groups:

- the mailing list, python-list at python.org

- Usenet, comp.lang.python

- the Gmane mirror:

  http://gmane.org/find.php?list=python-list%40python.org


and possibly others. You will maximise the number of people reading your 
posts if you avoid Google Groups. If for some reason you cannot use any 
of the alternatives, please take the time to fix some of the problems 
with Google Groups. If you search the archives, you should find some 
posts by Rusi defending Google Groups and explaining what he does to make 
it more presentable, and (if I remember correctly) I think Mark also 
sometimes posts a link to managing Google Groups.



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 10:53:47 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:53:47 +0000
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l7sru6$vfe$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 15:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
(if I remember correctly) I think Mark also
> sometimes posts a link to managing Google Groups.
>

You do, and here it is https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 11:19:00 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:19:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3654.1386345246.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3654.1386345246.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e2eaf360-bc2b-4e8d-816d-f7ea07f3f470@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 9:23:47 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 15:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> (if I remember correctly) I think Mark also
> 
> > sometimes posts a link to managing Google Groups.
> 
> >
> 
> You do, and here it is https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

That link needs updating.

Even if my almost-automatic correction methods are not considered
kosher for some reason or other, the thing that needs to go in there
is that GG has TWO problems

1. Blank lines
2. Long lines

That link only describes 1.

Roy's yesterday's post in "Packaging a proprietary python library"
says:

> I, and Rusi, know enough, and take the effort, to overcome its
> shortcomings doesn't change that.

But in fact his post takes care of 1 not 2.

In all fairness I did not know that 2 is a problem until rurpy pointed
it out recently and was not correcting it. In fact, I'd take the
trouble to make the lines long assuming that clients were intelligent
enough to fit it properly into whatever was the current window!!!

So someone please update that page!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 11:25:54 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 16:25:54 +0000
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <e2eaf360-bc2b-4e8d-816d-f7ea07f3f470@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3654.1386345246.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2eaf360-bc2b-4e8d-816d-f7ea07f3f470@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7stqc$lr8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 16:19, rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 9:23:47 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 06/12/2013 15:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> (if I remember correctly) I think Mark also
>>
>>> sometimes posts a link to managing Google Groups.
>>
>>>
>>
>> You do, and here it is https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>
> That link needs updating.
>
> Even if my almost-automatic correction methods are not considered
> kosher for some reason or other, the thing that needs to go in there
> is that GG has TWO problems
>
> 1. Blank lines
> 2. Long lines
>
> That link only describes 1.
>
> Roy's yesterday's post in "Packaging a proprietary python library"
> says:
>
>> I, and Rusi, know enough, and take the effort, to overcome its
>> shortcomings doesn't change that.
>
> But in fact his post takes care of 1 not 2.
>
> In all fairness I did not know that 2 is a problem until rurpy pointed
> it out recently and was not correcting it. In fact, I'd take the
> trouble to make the lines long assuming that clients were intelligent
> enough to fit it properly into whatever was the current window!!!
>
> So someone please update that page!
>

This is a community so why don't you?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 11:45:07 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3655.1386347178.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3654.1386345246.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e2eaf360-bc2b-4e8d-816d-f7ea07f3f470@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3655.1386347178.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f8bd3d70-2ed3-497c-8f9d-409bda778e3d@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 9:55:54 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 16:19, rusi wrote:

> > So someone please update that page!

> This is a community so why don't you?

Ok done (at least a first draft)
I was under the impression that anyone could not edit


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Dec  6 11:41:04 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 16:41:04 +0000
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52A1FE20.3060706@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 06/12/2013 15:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 06:52:48 -0800, iMath wrote:
>
>> yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google
>> Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ? your
>> english is a little strange to me .
>
> Mark is writing in fake old-English style, the way people think English
> was spoken a thousand years ago. I don't know why he did that. Perhaps he
> thought it was amusing.
>
[snip]
You're exaggerating. It's more like 500 years ago. :-)



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 11:53:08 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:53:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3657.1386348063.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3657.1386348063.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a8c3126b-fecf-4571-8122-cea5c88ec1b2@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 10:11:04 PM UTC+5:30, MRAB wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 15:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 06:52:48 -0800, iMath wrote:
> >> yes ,I am a native Chinese speaker.I always post question by Google
> >> Group not through  email ,is there something wrong with it ? your
> >> english is a little strange to me .

> > Mark is writing in fake old-English style, the way people think English
> > was spoken a thousand years ago. I don't know why he did that. Perhaps he
> > thought it was amusing.
> [snip]

> You're exaggerating. It's more like 500 years ago. :-)

I was going to say the same until I noticed the "the way people think English
was spoken..."

That makes it unarguable -- surely there are some people who (wrongly) think so?


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec  6 19:01:01 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:01:01 +1300
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <a8c3126b-fecf-4571-8122-cea5c88ec1b2@googlegroups.com>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3104d38f-3fca-43b0-b6a4-b600684f765e@googlegroups.com>
 <6fb2b162-cf9b-4c1c-bf5f-f14baf5baac4@googlegroups.com>
 <35c86484-d0dd-4954-adee-cde3a2fd7ac1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3549.1386150418.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b3596d0c-6a4d-4490-8648-338c77f62b58@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3631.1386321845.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a12fe465-683e-4643-8d78-0cd5ae8eb48e@googlegroups.com>
 <52a1ee73$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3657.1386348063.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a8c3126b-fecf-4571-8122-cea5c88ec1b2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bgf6pvF6vijU1@mid.individual.net>

rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 10:11:04 PM UTC+5:30, MRAB wrote:
> 
>>You're exaggerating. It's more like 500 years ago. :-)
> 
> I was going to say the same until I noticed the "the way people think English
> was spoken..."
> 
> That makes it unarguable -- surely there are some people who (wrongly) think so?

Probably. They're surprisingly far off, though. Here's
a sample of actual 1000-year-old English:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100314001840AAygUaq

-- 
Greg


From alain at dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr  Tue Dec  3 04:33:09 2013
From: alain at dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr (Alain Ketterlin)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:33:09 +0100
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87li029t4a.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr>

Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
>> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav
>>
>> In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
>> inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg.
>
> Not standard input, no. What it does is create a temporary file to
> contain the result, and inserts that file name on the command line. This
> is good for programs that require an actual file, not standard input.

Just in case (it may not be relevant to the current discussion): it may
not be a file, it will more probably be a FIFO (i.e., not seekable).
Here is the relevant part of the manual page:

|    Process Substitution
|        Process substitution is supported on systems that support named
|        pipes (FIFOs) or the /dev/fd method of naming open files. It
|        takes the form of <(list) or >(list). The process list is run
|        with its input or output connected to a FIFO or some file in
|        /dev/fd. The name of this file is passed as an argument to the
|        current command as the result of the expansion.

-- Alain.


From redstone-cold at 163.com  Tue Dec  3 08:59:19 2013
From: redstone-cold at 163.com (iMath)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 05:59:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: using ffmpeg command line with python's subprocess module
In-Reply-To: <87li029t4a.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr>
References: <d344154e-1de9-4016-b1fc-d1e9d989529d@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrG+ik5=kOxC5AYg2BFe2F3CzWmAREReuw9-w=TuDuPuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3478.1386019175.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <87li029t4a.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr>
Message-ID: <32aae712-6ffe-4640-9254-53fae264be61@googlegroups.com>

? 2013?12?3????UTC+8??5?33?09??Alain Ketterlin???
> Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >
> 
> >> On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:34 PM, iMath <redstone-cold at 163.com> wrote:
> 
> >> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(for f in ./*.wav; do echo "file '$f'"; done) -c copy output.wav
> 
> >> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(printf "file '%s'\n" ./*.wav) -c copy output.wav
> 
> >> > ffmpeg -f concat -i <(find . -name '*.wav' -printf "file '%p'\n") -c copy output.wav
> 
> >>
> 
> >> In bash, the <(...) notation is like piping: it executes the command
> 
> >> inside the parentheses and uses that as standard input to ffmpeg.
> 
> >
> 
> > Not standard input, no. What it does is create a temporary file to
> 
> > contain the result, and inserts that file name on the command line. This
> 
> > is good for programs that require an actual file, not standard input.
> 
> 
> 
> Just in case (it may not be relevant to the current discussion): it may
> 
> not be a file, it will more probably be a FIFO (i.e., not seekable).
> 
> Here is the relevant part of the manual page:
> 
> 
> 
> |    Process Substitution
> 
> |        Process substitution is supported on systems that support named
> 
> |        pipes (FIFOs) or the /dev/fd method of naming open files. It
> 
> |        takes the form of <(list) or >(list). The process list is run
> 
> |        with its input or output connected to a FIFO or some file in
> 
> |        /dev/fd. The name of this file is passed as an argument to the
> 
> |        current command as the result of the expansion.
> 
> 
> 
> -- Alain.

thanks for your reply, but is there any method that we can convert this to python ?


From contact at stephane-klein.info  Mon Dec  2 11:18:29 2013
From: contact at stephane-klein.info (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Klein?=)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 17:18:29 +0100
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
Message-ID: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hi,

I would like to convert time zone abbreviation to full time zone in Python.

I've found this information :

*
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1703546/parsing-date-time-string-with-timezone-abbreviated-name-in-python

I'm currently writing dict with this informations :
http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/

Questions :

* are there the same list somewhere (I didn't found in pytz) ?
* is it possible to append this list in pytz or in standard python date module ?

Best regards,
Stephane
-- 
St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info>
blog: http://stephane-klein.info
Twitter: http://twitter.com/klein_stephane
cv: http://cv.stephane-klein.info



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 12:31:22 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 12:31:22 -0500
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
In-Reply-To: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+w=qa=teJLhkeK-UBewMXp0mzdGYanaiHiTqf8_0dzO5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:18 AM, St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info
> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would like to convert time zone abbreviation to full time zone in Python.
>
> I've found this information :
>
> *
>
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1703546/parsing-date-time-string-with-timezone-abbreviated-name-in-python
>
> I'm currently writing dict with this informations :
> http://www.timeanddate.com/library/abbreviations/timezones/
>
> Questions :
>
> * are there the same list somewhere (I didn't found in pytz) ?
> * is it possible to append this list in pytz or in standard python date
> module ?
>

Is this what you are looking for: http://timezonedb.com/download

>
> Best regards,
> Stephane
> --
> St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info>
> blog: http://stephane-klein.info
> Twitter: http://twitter.com/klein_stephane
> cv: http://cv.stephane-klein.info
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From stuart at stuartbishop.net  Tue Dec  3 05:07:34 2013
From: stuart at stuartbishop.net (Stuart Bishop)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 17:07:34 +0700
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
In-Reply-To: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CADmi=6O_Te5L917Z8ihi315Jm_GOQ_N0sxotdAYWJ_dz_8WbzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, St?phane Klein
<contact at stephane-klein.info> wrote:

> * are there the same list somewhere (I didn't found in pytz) ?

Not that I know of.

> * is it possible to append this list in pytz or in standard python date module ?

It could go into pytz (but generated from the IANA database, not from
the list you quote). Whether it should go into pytz is debatable.

If you need to map an abbreviation back to a single timezone you are
solving the wrong problem, because you can only map an abbreviation
back to a list of possible timezones (And that list might change when
the database is corrected). Also, to correctly represent this you need
to specify the point in time. EST in 'Tue Dec  3 20:44:00 EST 2013'
maps to about 3 timezones. EST in 'Tue Dec  3 20:44:00 EST 2011' maps
to about 6.

-- 
Stuart Bishop <stuart at stuartbishop.net>
http://www.stuartbishop.net/


From contact at stephane-klein.info  Tue Dec  3 10:27:15 2013
From: contact at stephane-klein.info (=?UTF-8?B?U3TDqXBoYW5lIEtsZWlu?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:27:15 +0100
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
In-Reply-To: <CADmi=6O_Te5L917Z8ihi315Jm_GOQ_N0sxotdAYWJ_dz_8WbzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CADmi=6O_Te5L917Z8ihi315Jm_GOQ_N0sxotdAYWJ_dz_8WbzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <529DF853.5080900@stephane-klein.info>

Le 03/12/13 11:07, Stuart Bishop a ?crit :
> It could go into pytz (but generated from the IANA database, not from
> the list you quote). Whether it should go into pytz is debatable.
> 

Ok.

> If you need to map an abbreviation back to a single timezone you are
> solving the wrong problem, because you can only map an abbreviation
> back to a list of possible timezones (And that list might change when
> the database is corrected). Also, to correctly represent this you need
> to specify the point in time. EST in 'Tue Dec  3 20:44:00 EST 2013'
> maps to about 3 timezones. EST in 'Tue Dec  3 20:44:00 EST 2011' maps
> to about 6.
> 

Ok I understand this now.

My original need is by example, convert

Apr 16 12:09:00 SGT 2010

to UTC format.

I would like to use datetime.datetime.strptime function, but it don't success to
parse %Z param.

pytz haven't parse function.

python-dateutil have a auto discover parse function, but I don't want to use
this auto discover feature.

Question, pytz can't implement a parsing feature ?

Best regards,
St?phane

-- 
St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info>
blog: http://stephane-klein.info
Twitter: http://twitter.com/klein_stephane
cv: http://cv.stephane-klein.info



From contact at stephane-klein.info  Tue Dec  3 10:46:17 2013
From: contact at stephane-klein.info (=?UTF-8?B?U3TDqXBoYW5lIEtsZWlu?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:46:17 +0100
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
In-Reply-To: <529DF853.5080900@stephane-klein.info>
References: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CADmi=6O_Te5L917Z8ihi315Jm_GOQ_N0sxotdAYWJ_dz_8WbzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <529DF853.5080900@stephane-klein.info>
Message-ID: <529DFCC9.9010203@stephane-klein.info>

Le 03/12/13 16:27, St?phane Klein a ?crit :
> python-dateutil have a auto discover parse function, but I don't want to use
> this auto discover feature

For now, I use this :

--------
import dateutil.parser
import pytz

tz_str = '''-12 Y
-11 X NUT SST
-10 W CKT HAST HST TAHT TKT
-9 V AKST GAMT GIT HADT HNY
-8 U AKDT CIST HAY HNP PST PT
-7 T HAP HNR MST PDT
-6 S CST EAST GALT HAR HNC MDT
-5 R CDT COT EASST ECT EST ET HAC HNE PET
-4 Q AST BOT CLT COST EDT FKT GYT HAE HNA PYT
-3 P ADT ART BRT CLST FKST GFT HAA PMST PYST SRT UYT WGT
-2 O BRST FNT PMDT UYST WGST
-1 N AZOT CVT EGT
0 Z EGST GMT UTC WET WT
1 A CET DFT WAT WEDT WEST
2 B CAT CEDT CEST EET SAST WAST
3 C EAT EEDT EEST IDT MSK
4 D AMT AZT GET GST KUYT MSD MUT RET SAMT SCT
5 E AMST AQTT AZST HMT MAWT MVT PKT TFT TJT TMT UZT YEKT
6 F ALMT BIOT BTT IOT KGT NOVT OMST YEKST
7 G CXT DAVT HOVT ICT KRAT NOVST OMSST THA WIB
8 H ACT AWST BDT BNT CAST HKT IRKT KRAST MYT PHT SGT ULAT WITA WST
9 I AWDT IRKST JST KST PWT TLT WDT WIT YAKT
10 K AEST ChST PGT VLAT YAKST YAPT
11 L AEDT LHDT MAGT NCT PONT SBT VLAST VUT
12 M ANAST ANAT FJT GILT MAGST MHT NZST PETST PETT TVT WFT
13 FJST NZDT
11.5 NFT
10.5 ACDT LHST
9.5 ACST
6.5 CCT MMT
5.75 NPT
5.5 SLT
4.5 AFT IRDT
3.5 IRST
-2.5 HAT NDT
-3.5 HNT NST NT
-4.5 HLV VET
-9.5 MART MIT'''

tzd = {}
for tz_descr in map(str.split, tz_str.split('\n')):
    tz_offset = int(float(tz_descr[0]) * 3600)
    for tz_code in tz_descr[1:]:
        tzd[tz_code] = tz_offset

print(tzd)

date1 = 'Apr 16 12:09:00 SGT 2010'
date = dateutil.parser.parse(date1, tzinfos=tzd).astimezone(pytz.utc)
print(date)
--------

Are there a better solution ?

-- 
St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info>
blog: http://stephane-klein.info
Twitter: http://twitter.com/klein_stephane
cv: http://cv.stephane-klein.info



From contact at stephane-klein.info  Tue Dec  3 10:46:17 2013
From: contact at stephane-klein.info (=?UTF-8?B?U3TDqXBoYW5lIEtsZWlu?=)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:46:17 +0100
Subject: I look for a list to convert time zone abbreviation to full time
 zone in python
In-Reply-To: <529DF853.5080900@stephane-klein.info>
References: <l7ibsg$m9g$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CADmi=6O_Te5L917Z8ihi315Jm_GOQ_N0sxotdAYWJ_dz_8WbzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <529DF853.5080900@stephane-klein.info>
Message-ID: <529DFCC9.9010203@stephane-klein.info>

Le 03/12/13 16:27, St?phane Klein a ?crit :
> python-dateutil have a auto discover parse function, but I don't want to use
> this auto discover feature

For now, I use this :

--------
import dateutil.parser
import pytz

tz_str = '''-12 Y
-11 X NUT SST
-10 W CKT HAST HST TAHT TKT
-9 V AKST GAMT GIT HADT HNY
-8 U AKDT CIST HAY HNP PST PT
-7 T HAP HNR MST PDT
-6 S CST EAST GALT HAR HNC MDT
-5 R CDT COT EASST ECT EST ET HAC HNE PET
-4 Q AST BOT CLT COST EDT FKT GYT HAE HNA PYT
-3 P ADT ART BRT CLST FKST GFT HAA PMST PYST SRT UYT WGT
-2 O BRST FNT PMDT UYST WGST
-1 N AZOT CVT EGT
0 Z EGST GMT UTC WET WT
1 A CET DFT WAT WEDT WEST
2 B CAT CEDT CEST EET SAST WAST
3 C EAT EEDT EEST IDT MSK
4 D AMT AZT GET GST KUYT MSD MUT RET SAMT SCT
5 E AMST AQTT AZST HMT MAWT MVT PKT TFT TJT TMT UZT YEKT
6 F ALMT BIOT BTT IOT KGT NOVT OMST YEKST
7 G CXT DAVT HOVT ICT KRAT NOVST OMSST THA WIB
8 H ACT AWST BDT BNT CAST HKT IRKT KRAST MYT PHT SGT ULAT WITA WST
9 I AWDT IRKST JST KST PWT TLT WDT WIT YAKT
10 K AEST ChST PGT VLAT YAKST YAPT
11 L AEDT LHDT MAGT NCT PONT SBT VLAST VUT
12 M ANAST ANAT FJT GILT MAGST MHT NZST PETST PETT TVT WFT
13 FJST NZDT
11.5 NFT
10.5 ACDT LHST
9.5 ACST
6.5 CCT MMT
5.75 NPT
5.5 SLT
4.5 AFT IRDT
3.5 IRST
-2.5 HAT NDT
-3.5 HNT NST NT
-4.5 HLV VET
-9.5 MART MIT'''

tzd = {}
for tz_descr in map(str.split, tz_str.split('\n')):
    tz_offset = int(float(tz_descr[0]) * 3600)
    for tz_code in tz_descr[1:]:
        tzd[tz_code] = tz_offset

print(tzd)

date1 = 'Apr 16 12:09:00 SGT 2010'
date = dateutil.parser.parse(date1, tzinfos=tzd).astimezone(pytz.utc)
print(date)
--------

Are there a better solution ?

-- 
St?phane Klein <contact at stephane-klein.info>
blog: http://stephane-klein.info
Twitter: http://twitter.com/klein_stephane
cv: http://cv.stephane-klein.info


From alan.isaac at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 17:34:05 2013
From: alan.isaac at gmail.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 14:34:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: multiprocessing: child process share changes to global variable
Message-ID: <cb2a4cad-4131-42ca-bdc1-ea95a937cce4@googlegroups.com>

In the code below, child processes see changes to global variables caused by other child processes. That is, pool.map is producing a list where the value of ``lst`` is being (non-deterministically) shared across child processes.  Standard advice is that, "Processes have independent memory space" and "each process works with its own copy" of global variables, so I thought this was not supposed to happen. In the end, the globals are not changed, which matches my expectation. Still, clearly I have misunderstood what seemed to be standard advice.  Can someone clarify for me?

Expected result from pool.map: [[0],[1],[2]]
Usual result: [[0],[0,1],[0,1,2]]
Occasional result: [[0],[1],[0,2]]

Thanks,
Alan Isaac


#--------------- temp.py -------------------------
#run at Python 2.7 command prompt
import time
import multiprocessing as mp
lst = []
lstlst = []

def alist(x):
    lst.append(x)
    lstlst.append(lst)
    print "a"
    return lst

if __name__=='__main__':
    pool = mp.Pool(3)
    print pool.map(alist,range(3)) #UNEXPECTED RESULTS
    print "b"
    time.sleep(0.1)

print "c"
print lst
print lstlst


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 22:14:40 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 20:14:40 -0700
Subject: multiprocessing: child process share changes to global variable
In-Reply-To: <cb2a4cad-4131-42ca-bdc1-ea95a937cce4@googlegroups.com>
References: <cb2a4cad-4131-42ca-bdc1-ea95a937cce4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1jFiNebnWJNW9+Cj404RJgm2ZfHUUaYnap4nuaQiZfb0g@mail.gmail.com>

> #--------------- temp.py -------------------------
> #run at Python 2.7 command prompt
> import time
> import multiprocessing as mp
> lst = []
> lstlst = []
>
> def alist(x):
>     lst.append(x)
>     lstlst.append(lst)
>     print "a"
>     return lst
>
> if __name__=='__main__':
>     pool = mp.Pool(3)
>     print pool.map(alist,range(3)) #UNEXPECTED RESULTS
>     print "b"
>     time.sleep(0.1)
>
> print "c"
> print lst
> print lstlst
> --

I get several different results:

$ for i in {1..1000}; do
> python2.7 temp.py | md5sum >> result
> done

$ wc -l result
1000 result

$ sort result | uniq | wc -l
9


From alan.isaac at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 12:56:26 2013
From: alan.isaac at gmail.com (Alan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: multiprocessing: child process share changes to global variable
In-Reply-To: <cb2a4cad-4131-42ca-bdc1-ea95a937cce4@googlegroups.com>
References: <cb2a4cad-4131-42ca-bdc1-ea95a937cce4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7d9fa51a-729c-4903-a251-dc6709cef097@googlegroups.com>

I received a suggestion off list that my results indicated that the jobs were not being distributed across the pool workers.  I used mp.current_process().name to confirm this suggestion.

Alan Isaac


From winefrog at gmail.com  Mon Dec  2 20:40:19 2013
From: winefrog at gmail.com (Isaac Won)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 17:40:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Using MFDataset to combine netcdf files in python
Message-ID: <8c020248-8deb-47db-8224-7125e698dda7@googlegroups.com>

I am trying to combine netcdf files, but it contifuously shows " File "CBL_plot.py", line 11, in f = MFDataset(fili) File "utils.pyx", line 274, in netCDF4.MFDataset.init (netCDF4.c:3822) IOError: master dataset THref_11:00.nc does not have a aggregation dimension."

So, I checked only one netcdf files and the information of a netcdf file is as below:

float64 th_ref(u't',) unlimited dimensions = () current size = (30,)

It looks there is no aggregation dimension. However, I would like to combine those netcdf files rather than just using one by one. Is there any way to create aggregation dimension to make this MFData set work?

Below is the python code I used:
    import numpy as np
    from netCDF4 import MFDataset
    varn = 'th_ref'
    fili = THref_*nc'
    f    = MFDataset(fili)
    Th  = f.variables[varn]
    Th_ref=np.array(Th[:])
    print Th.shape

I will really appreciate any help, idea, and hint.

Thank you, Isaac


From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Tue Dec  3 07:18:59 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 3 Dec 2013 12:18:59 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
Message-ID: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>

Hi,

I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
How to do it more elegantly? 
I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.

Many thanks for some lessons in Python.

Here is my clumsy solution

from heapq import heappush, heappop
# heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty

H=[]
for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
  heappush(H,N)

# how to avoid / simplify the following function

def in_sequence(H) :
  try :
    while True :
      N= heappop(H)
      yield N
  except IndexError :
    raise StopIteration

# and here the application:

for N in in_sequence(H) :
  print(N)


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec  3 07:38:58 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:38:58 +0100
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <l7kjck$ldu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Helmut Jarausch wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
> How to do it more elegantly?
> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
> 
> Many thanks for some lessons in Python.
> 
> Here is my clumsy solution
> 
> from heapq import heappush, heappop
> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
> 
> H=[]
> for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
>   heappush(H,N)

H = ["H", "C", "W", "I"]
heapq.heapify(H)

But see below.

> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
> 
> def in_sequence(H) :
>   try :
>     while True :
>       N= heappop(H)
>       yield N
>   except IndexError :
>     raise StopIteration
> 
> # and here the application:
> 
> for N in in_sequence(H) :
>   print(N)

If you are iterating over the complete heap I see no advantage over a sorted 
list. So

for N in sorted(H):
    print(N)

If H is huge use H.sort() instead of sorted() to save memory.
If you need only a few items use heapq.nsmallest().



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 07:40:26 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 04:40:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <7124acb3-7ba2-4b4d-b6e6-8b49e00550fe@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:48:59 PM UTC+5:30, Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
> How to do it more elegantly? 
> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.

How about

def in_sequence(h):
  for i in range(len(h)):
    yield heapq.heappop(h)

Yeah its a bit fiddly:
1. i needed for for but not used
2. The range in the for loop -- normally a python 'smell'

If python3

def ins3(h):
   yield from (heapq.heappop(h) for i in range(len(h)))



From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Dec  4 04:37:08 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 4 Dec 2013 09:37:08 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <7124acb3-7ba2-4b4d-b6e6-8b49e00550fe@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bg8be4Fn3pfU3@mid.dfncis.de>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 04:40:26 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 5:48:59 PM UTC+5:30, Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>> How to do it more elegantly? 
>> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
> 
> How about
> 
> def in_sequence(h):
>   for i in range(len(h)):
>     yield heapq.heappop(h)
> 
> Yeah its a bit fiddly:
> 1. i needed for for but not used
> 2. The range in the for loop -- normally a python 'smell'
> 
> If python3
> 
> def ins3(h):
>    yield from (heapq.heappop(h) for i in range(len(h)))

Many thanks, I'm using Python3 anyway!
Helmut


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Tue Dec  3 08:06:05 2013
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 3 Dec 2013 13:06:05 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <XnsA28B844A38AD0duncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
> How to do it more elegantly? 
> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
> 
> Many thanks for some lessons in Python.
> 
> Here is my clumsy solution
> 
> from heapq import heappush, heappop
> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
> 
> H=[]
> for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
>   heappush(H,N)
> 
> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
> 
> def in_sequence(H) :
>   try :
>     while True :
>       N= heappop(H)
>       yield N
>   except IndexError :
>     raise StopIteration
> 
> # and here the application:
> 
> for N in in_sequence(H) :
>   print(N)
> 

If all you want to do is pull all of the elements out of the heap in 
order, you would probably be better off just doing:

for N in sorted(H):
    print(N)

Heaps are mostly useful if you want only some of the elements, or if you 
are continually producing more elements while also processing the 
smallest ones.

However, if you really wnt to do this:

    for N in iter(lambda: heappop(H) if H else None, None):
        print(N)

will work so long as H cannot contain None. If it can just replace both 
occurences of None with some other sentinel:

    sentinel = object()
    for N in iter(lambda: heappop(H) if H else sentinel, sentinel):
        print(N)


Alternatively your 'in_sequence' function would look better without the 
exception handling:

def in_sequence(H) :
    while H:
        yield heappop(H)

-- 
Duncan Booth


From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Dec  4 04:39:21 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 4 Dec 2013 09:39:21 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <XnsA28B844A38AD0duncanbooth@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <bg8bi9Fn3pfU4@mid.dfncis.de>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:06:05 +0000, Duncan Booth wrote:

> Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>> How to do it more elegantly? 
>> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
>> 
>> Many thanks for some lessons in Python.
>> 
>> Here is my clumsy solution
>> 
>> from heapq import heappush, heappop
>> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
>> 
>> H=[]
>> for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
>>   heappush(H,N)
>> 
>> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
>> 
>> def in_sequence(H) :
>>   try :
>>     while True :
>>       N= heappop(H)
>>       yield N
>>   except IndexError :
>>     raise StopIteration
>> 
>> # and here the application:
>> 
>> for N in in_sequence(H) :
>>   print(N)
>> 
> 
> If all you want to do is pull all of the elements out of the heap in 
> order, you would probably be better off just doing:
> 
> for N in sorted(H):
>     print(N)
> 
> Heaps are mostly useful if you want only some of the elements, or if you 
> are continually producing more elements while also processing the 
> smallest ones.
> 
> However, if you really wnt to do this:
> 
>     for N in iter(lambda: heappop(H) if H else None, None):
>         print(N)
> 
> will work so long as H cannot contain None. If it can just replace both 
> occurences of None with some other sentinel:
> 
>     sentinel = object()
>     for N in iter(lambda: heappop(H) if H else sentinel, sentinel):
>         print(N)
> 
> 
> Alternatively your 'in_sequence' function would look better without the 
> exception handling:
> 
> def in_sequence(H) :
>     while H:
>         yield heappop(H)

Many thanks!
And as noted in another reply, I try to overlap CPU time with file I/O since
I have to open / read / close a file for each line that gets pushed onto the heap.
Helmut


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Tue Dec  3 08:56:11 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 03 Dec 2013 15:56:11 +0200
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <qoty542ujgk.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Helmut Jarausch writes:
...
> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
...
> from heapq import heappush, heappop
> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
...
> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
> 
> def in_sequence(H) :
>   try :
>     while True :
>       N= heappop(H)
>       yield N
>   except IndexError :
>     raise StopIteration

That seems equivalent to this:

def in_sequence(H):
  while H: yield heappop(H)

But I don't like the side-effect. I'd change the name to something
that indicates the draining of the heap - heapaerobic? - or consider
sorted(H) instead as others suggested.


From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Dec  4 04:41:35 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 4 Dec 2013 09:41:35 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <qoty542ujgk.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <bg8bmfFn3pfU5@mid.dfncis.de>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 15:56:11 +0200, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:

> Helmut Jarausch writes:
> ...
>> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
> ...
>> from heapq import heappush, heappop
>> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
> ...
>> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
>> 
>> def in_sequence(H) :
>>   try :
>>     while True :
>>       N= heappop(H)
>>       yield N
>>   except IndexError :
>>     raise StopIteration
> 
> That seems equivalent to this:
> 
> def in_sequence(H):
>   while H: yield heappop(H)

Many thanks, that's something I'd hoped for.

> But I don't like the side-effect. I'd change the name to something
> that indicates the draining of the heap - heapaerobic? - or consider
> sorted(H) instead as others suggested.

Since I fill the heap once and empty it afterwards I regard the side-effect
clearly visible.

Helmut


From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 16:13:03 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:13:03 +1100
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <20131203211303.GA83257@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Dec2013 12:18, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
> How to do it more elegantly? 

I can't believe nobody has mentioned PriorityQueue.

A PriorityQueue (from the queue module in python 3 and the Queue
module in python 2) is essentially just a regular Queue using a
heapq for the storage.

Example (untested):

  from Queue import PriorityQueue

  PQ = PriorityQueue()
  for item in [1,2,3,7,6,5,9,4]:
    PQ.put(item)

  while not PQ.empty():
    item = PQ.get()
    ... do stuff with item ...

I iterate over Queues so often that I have a personal class called
a QueueIterator which is a wrapper for a Queue or PriorityQueue
which is iterable, and an IterablePriorityQueue factory function.
Example:

  from cs.queues import IterablePriorityQueue

  IPQ = IterablePriorityQueue()
  for item in [1,2,3,7,6,5,9,4]:
    IPQ.put(item)

  for item in IPQ:
    ... do stuff with item ...

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
        - Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology, henry at zoo.toronto.edu


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 16:43:10 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 14:43:10 -0700
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <20131203211303.GA83257@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <20131203211303.GA83257@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CALwzidmmqLzFtNyRVmcY6j7gvRxPQh-vNune4XXXzrqMjChapA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 03Dec2013 12:18, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>> How to do it more elegantly?
>
> I can't believe nobody has mentioned PriorityQueue.

As far as I'm aware, the only advantage of PriorityQueue over heapq is
that the former is thread-safe, which does not appear to be relevant
here.  I haven't tested it for speed, but I imagine it would be a fair
bit slower, mostly thanks to the locking it needs to do.


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec  3 17:32:39 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 17:32:39 -0500
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidmmqLzFtNyRVmcY6j7gvRxPQh-vNune4XXXzrqMjChapA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <20131203211303.GA83257@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CALwzidmmqLzFtNyRVmcY6j7gvRxPQh-vNune4XXXzrqMjChapA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7lm5s$8ut$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/3/13 4:43 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>> On 03Dec2013 12:18, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
>>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>>> How to do it more elegantly?
>>
>> I can't believe nobody has mentioned PriorityQueue.
>
> As far as I'm aware, the only advantage of PriorityQueue over heapq is
> that the former is thread-safe, which does not appear to be relevant
> here.  I haven't tested it for speed, but I imagine it would be a fair
> bit slower, mostly thanks to the locking it needs to do.
>

In fact, if you look at the implementation of PriorityQueue, it uses a 
heapq internally, so yes, other than the locking, the speed will be the 
same.

--Ned.



From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec  3 18:27:25 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:27:25 +1100
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidmmqLzFtNyRVmcY6j7gvRxPQh-vNune4XXXzrqMjChapA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALwzidmmqLzFtNyRVmcY6j7gvRxPQh-vNune4XXXzrqMjChapA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131203232725.GA19709@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Dec2013 14:43, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> > On 03Dec2013 12:18, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> >> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
> >> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
> >> How to do it more elegantly?
> >
> > I can't believe nobody has mentioned PriorityQueue.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, the only advantage of PriorityQueue over heapq is
> that the former is thread-safe, which does not appear to be relevant
> here.  I haven't tested it for speed, but I imagine it would be a fair
> bit slower, mostly thanks to the locking it needs to do.

I could claim I do a lot of multithreaded stuff, which is true.

But really I just prefer the put/get abstraction. A heapq is very
overtly a heap manipulator applied to an arbitrary list. A Queue
is more self contained, for all that it is the same thing happening
inside.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

"Are we alpinists, or are we tourists" followed by "tourists! tourists!"
        - Kobus Barnard <kobus at cs.sfu.ca> in rec.climbing,
          on things he's heard firsthand


From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Dec  4 04:36:17 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 4 Dec 2013 09:36:17 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <mailman.3509.1386074347.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bg8bchFn3pfU2@mid.dfncis.de>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:38:58 +0100, Peter Otten wrote:

> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>> How to do it more elegantly?
>> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
>> 
>> Many thanks for some lessons in Python.
>> 
>> Here is my clumsy solution
>> 
>> from heapq import heappush, heappop
>> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
>> 
>> H=[]
>> for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
>>   heappush(H,N)
> 
> H = ["H", "C", "W", "I"]
> heapq.heapify(H)
> 
> But see below.
> 
>> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
>> 
>> def in_sequence(H) :
>>   try :
>>     while True :
>>       N= heappop(H)
>>       yield N
>>   except IndexError :
>>     raise StopIteration
>> 
>> # and here the application:
>> 
>> for N in in_sequence(H) :
>>   print(N)
> 
> If you are iterating over the complete heap I see no advantage over a sorted 
> list. So
> 
> for N in sorted(H):
>     print(N)
> 
> If H is huge use H.sort() instead of sorted() to save memory.
> If you need only a few items use heapq.nsmallest().


Many thanks!
In my real application the data which is pushed onto the heap will be extracted from a small file
which is executed several thousands times. So, I thought, I could keep the CPU a bit busy while
the OS is doing file I/O. Of course, I could have appended all these strings to a list which is
sorted at the end.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec  4 04:50:52 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:50:52 +0100
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <mailman.3509.1386074347.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bg8bchFn3pfU2@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <l7mtt9$4ec$1@ger.gmane.org>

Helmut Jarausch wrote:

> On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:38:58 +0100, Peter Otten wrote:
> 
>> Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>>> How to do it more elegantly?
>>> I know I could use a while loop but I don't like it.
>>> 
>>> Many thanks for some lessons in Python.
>>> 
>>> Here is my clumsy solution
>>> 
>>> from heapq import heappush, heappop
>>> # heappop raises IndexError if heap is empty
>>> 
>>> H=[]
>>> for N in 'H','C','W','I' :
>>>   heappush(H,N)
>> 
>> H = ["H", "C", "W", "I"]
>> heapq.heapify(H)
>> 
>> But see below.
>> 
>>> # how to avoid / simplify the following function
>>> 
>>> def in_sequence(H) :
>>>   try :
>>>     while True :
>>>       N= heappop(H)
>>>       yield N
>>>   except IndexError :
>>>     raise StopIteration
>>> 
>>> # and here the application:
>>> 
>>> for N in in_sequence(H) :
>>>   print(N)
>> 
>> If you are iterating over the complete heap I see no advantage over a
>> sorted list. So
>> 
>> for N in sorted(H):
>>     print(N)
>> 
>> If H is huge use H.sort() instead of sorted() to save memory.
>> If you need only a few items use heapq.nsmallest().
> 
> 
> Many thanks!
> In my real application the data which is pushed onto the heap will be
> extracted from a small file which is executed several thousands times. So,
> I thought, I could keep the CPU a bit busy while the OS is doing file I/O.
> Of course, I could have appended all these strings to a list which is
> sorted at the end.

In that case have a look at bisect.insort() which adds an item to a list 
while keeping it sorted.



From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Dec  4 04:44:49 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 4 Dec 2013 09:44:49 GMT
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
References: <bg60hjF83eoU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <mailman.3528.1386105197.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bg8bshFn3pfU6@mid.dfncis.de>

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:13:03 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:

> On 03Dec2013 12:18, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
>> I'd like to extracted elements from a heapq in a for loop.
>> I feel my solution below is much too complicated.
>> How to do it more elegantly? 
> 
> I can't believe nobody has mentioned PriorityQueue.
> 
> A PriorityQueue (from the queue module in python 3 and the Queue
> module in python 2) is essentially just a regular Queue using a
> heapq for the storage.
> 
> Example (untested):
> 
>   from Queue import PriorityQueue
> 
>   PQ = PriorityQueue()
>   for item in [1,2,3,7,6,5,9,4]:
>     PQ.put(item)
> 
>   while not PQ.empty():
>     item = PQ.get()
>     ... do stuff with item ...
> 
> I iterate over Queues so often that I have a personal class called
> a QueueIterator which is a wrapper for a Queue or PriorityQueue
> which is iterable, and an IterablePriorityQueue factory function.
> Example:
> 
>   from cs.queues import IterablePriorityQueue
> 
>   IPQ = IterablePriorityQueue()
>   for item in [1,2,3,7,6,5,9,4]:
>     IPQ.put(item)
> 
>   for item in IPQ:
>     ... do stuff with item ...
> 
> Cheers,

Many thanks!

I think you QueueIterator would be a nice addition to Python's library.
Helmut


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Dec  4 21:29:58 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 13:29:58 +1100
Subject: extracting a heapq in a for loop - there must be  more elegant
 solution
In-Reply-To: <bg8bshFn3pfU6@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bg8bshFn3pfU6@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <20131205022958.GA23485@cskk.homeip.net>

On 04Dec2013 09:44, Helmut Jarausch <jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:13:03 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > I iterate over Queues so often that I have a personal class called
> > a QueueIterator which is a wrapper for a Queue or PriorityQueue
> > which is iterable, and an IterablePriorityQueue factory function.
> > Example:
> > 
> >   from cs.queues import IterablePriorityQueue
> > 
> >   IPQ = IterablePriorityQueue()
> >   for item in [1,2,3,7,6,5,9,4]:
> >     IPQ.put(item)
> > 
> >   for item in IPQ:
> >     ... do stuff with item ...
> 
> Many thanks!
> I think you QueueIterator would be a nice addition to Python's library.

I'm not convinced. I'm still sorting out the edge cases, and it's
my own code and use cases!

The basic idea is simple enough:

  class QueueIterator:
    def __init__(self, Q, sentinel=None):
      self.q = Q
      self.sentinel = sentinel
    def __next__(self):
      item = self.q.get()
      if item is self.sentinel:
        # queue sentinel again for other users
        self.q.put(item)
        raise StopIteration
      return item
    def put(self, item):
      if item is self.sentinel:
        raise ValueError('.put of sentinel object')
      return self.q.put(item)
    def close(self):
      self.q.put(self.sentinel)

  QI = QueueIterator(Queue())

Note that it does not work well for PriorityQueues unless you can
ensure the sentinel sorted later than any other item.

But you really need to be sure nobody does a .get() in the internal
queue, or the close protocol doesn't work. This is why the above
does not expose a .get() method.

You want to prevent .put() on the queue after close().
Of course, I have use cases where I _want_ to allow .put() after
close:-(

You may want to issue a warning if more than one call to
.close happens.

And so on.

And I have a some weird cases where the close situation has trouble,
which probably points to .close() not being a great mapping to
my termination scenarios.

It is easy to code for the simple data-in, data-out case though.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Computer manufacturers have been failing to deliver working systems on
time and to budget since Babbage.       - Jack Schofield, in The Guardian


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 07:58:26 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:58:26 +0000
Subject: Python for microcontrollers
Message-ID: <l7kkgt$tft$1@ger.gmane.org>

I thought this might be of interest 
Http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/214379695/micro-python-python-for-microcontrollers

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From cjw at ncf.ca  Tue Dec  3 09:18:43 2013
From: cjw at ncf.ca (Colin J. Williams)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:18:43 -0500
Subject: Python for microcontrollers
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3510.1386075516.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3510.1386075516.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>

On 03/12/2013 7:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> I thought this might be of interest
> Http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/214379695/micro-python-python-for-microcontrollers
>
>
Is this intended to be better than the Raspberry PI?  RPi handles Python 
2 or 3.

How would it differ?

Colin W.


From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:04:48 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:04:48 -0800
Subject: Python for microcontrollers
In-Reply-To: <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>
References: <mailman.3510.1386075516.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>
Message-ID: <1C81DF8B-E167-4544-A9AC-0E95BDF54B49@gmail.com>


On Dec 3, 2013, at 6:18 AM, Colin J. Williams <cjw at ncf.ca> wrote:

> On 03/12/2013 7:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> I thought this might be of interest
>> Http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/214379695/micro-python-python-for-microcontrollers
>> 
>> 
> Is this intended to be better than the Raspberry PI?  RPi handles Python 2 or 3.
> 
> How would it differ?

IMO, a whole different class of computer. From that page, the board they?re targeting ?... clocked at 168MHz and has 1MiB flash and 192KiB RAM.? They?re running OS-less.

The Pi, on the other hand actually runs a full OS (Linux) and has specs like 700 MHz, 512MB Ram, and an sd card for storage which means you?re going to have to work hard to find something as small as 2G, the sweet price point is going to actually give you 8G.

Whether or not you go for their board, they?re targeting a compute environment that is 5x-ish slower, has at least 2000x less storage space, and works with about a thousandth of the ram of a Pi.

Having forayed into the world of small small micro controllers myself this last year and a half, I?m kind of torn on whether this is a good idea or not. But I think it?s cool they?re trying. And I?d definitely try it to see how it worked out.

From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:54:49 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:54:49 -0700
Subject: Python for microcontrollers
In-Reply-To: <1C81DF8B-E167-4544-A9AC-0E95BDF54B49@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3510.1386075516.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>
 <1C81DF8B-E167-4544-A9AC-0E95BDF54B49@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <529E0CD9.4010201@gmail.com>

On 12/03/2013 09:04 AM, Travis Griggs wrote:
> Having forayed into the world of small small micro controllers myself
> this last year and a half, I?m kind of torn on whether this is a good
> idea or not. But I think it?s cool they?re trying. And I?d definitely
> try it to see how it worked out.

I've also been foraying into the world of micro controllers and I
personally, after watching the video and reading their spiel, am super
excited about this!  This is really cool.  It's not exactly vaporware
either.  The software is 95% done.  My only concern is that it appears
to be (since it's ARM), a 3.3v system.  The future is 3.3v, I understand
that.  But many of the current off-the-shelf sensors and parts are 5v
(TTL level).  But there's a lot of stuff that's 3.3v now, and there are
ways of converting logic levels.


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:06:49 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:06:49 -0700
Subject: Python for microcontrollers
In-Reply-To: <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>
References: <mailman.3510.1386075516.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l7kp86$3c2$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>
Message-ID: <529E0199.2020108@gmail.com>

On 12/03/2013 07:18 AM, Colin J. Williams wrote:
> On 03/12/2013 7:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> I thought this might be of interest
>> Http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/214379695/micro-python-python-for-microcontrollers
>>
>>
> Is this intended to be better than the Raspberry PI?  RPi handles Python 
> 2 or 3.
> 
> How would it differ?

Raspberry Pi is not a microcontroller.  It's an embedded, but still full
blown computer and operating system.

Big difference.  At least at this stage of the game.  Maybe in the
future all our microwaves will run linux on every chip.  But for now,
microcontrollers are dominated by 8 and 16-bit microcontrollers that run
code with minimal abstraction.

Years ago there were chips that ran LISP byte codes, and later Java byte
codes.  And the stamp chips run BASIC byte codes.  And now maybe Python
byte codes!  At least a subset of python.

Right now for prototyping I can place a small program on an Atmel chip
(well most microcontrollers actually) that communicates via a well-known
protocol on serial, and then I can hack my algorithms together using
Python on a PC (or a RPi[1]) and give it a test.  Staying in Python
would rock.

[1] In fact RPi's electrical interface is harder to work with than say
an Arduino (3.3v, not quite as adept at interfacing with analog inputs,
etc).  So many people use them together by mating an Arduino add-on
board to the Pi and then communicating with it over serial port.  Makes
a powerful combination.  The RPi turns out to be a very powerful and
affordable ethernet shield for arduino!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 09:48:43 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 14:48:43 +0000
Subject: [OT]Does the BDFL play golf?
Message-ID: <l7kqvl$fj3$2@ger.gmane.org>

Saw this on a UK Python mailing list and couldn't resist 
http://thesandtrap.com/products/snake-eyes-python-xld-iron-head

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From geezle86 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 10:48:43 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 07:48:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
Message-ID: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>

I am trying to solve this problem:

http://codeforces.com/problemset/problem/71/A

The input and output is as wanted, but my answer keep rejected, here is my source code http://txt.do/1smv

Please, I need help.



From gordon at panix.com  Tue Dec  3 11:03:31 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:03:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7kvcj$b2$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00 at googlegroups.com> geezle86 at gmail.com writes:

> I am trying to solve this problem:

> http://codeforces.com/problemset/problem/71/A

> The input and output is as wanted, but my answer keep rejected, here is
> my source code http://txt.do/1smv

> Please, I need help.

You'll have to explain more about your problem.  What, exactly, is wrong?

If, as you say, the input and output is correct, then why do you say there
is a problem?

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From neilc at norwich.edu  Tue Dec  3 11:10:40 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:10:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7kvq0$k0d$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-03, geezle86 at gmail.com <geezle86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am trying to solve this problem:
>
> http://codeforces.com/problemset/problem/71/A

Please post your code in and the problem in your message. Here it
is for those reading along:

> A. Way Too Long Words
> Sometimes some words like "localization" or
> "internationalization" are so long that writing them many times
> in one text is quite tiresome.
> 
> Let's consider a word too long, if its length is strictly more
> than 10 characters. All too long words should be replaced with
> a special abbreviation.
> 
> This abbreviation is made like this: we write down the first
> and the last letter of a word and between them we write the
> number of letters between the first and the last letters. That
> number is in decimal system and doesn't contain any leading
> zeroes.
> 
> Thus, "localization" will be spelt as "l10n", and
> "internationalization? will be spelt as "i18n".

This is a ridiculous abbreviation scheme, but for purposes of
your project that doesn't matter.

> You are suggested to automatize the process of changing the
> words with abbreviations. At that all too long words should be
> replaced by the abbreviation and the words that are not too
> long should not undergo any changes.
> 
> Input
> The first line contains an integer n (1?=?n?=?100). Each of the
> following n lines contains one word. All the words consist of
> lowercase Latin letters and possess the lengths of from 1 to
> 100 characters.
> 
> Output
> Print n lines. The i-th line should contain the result of
> replacing of the i-th word from the input data

Here's your solution so far:
> x = input()
> 
> if x.isdigit() == False:
>     i = len(x)
>     j = i - 1
>     k = i - 2
> 
>     xList = list(x)
> 
>     if len(xList) > 4:
>         print(xList[0], int(k), xList[j], sep='', end='')
>     else:
>         print(x)
> else:
>     SystemExit
>
> The input and output is as wanted, but my answer keep rejected,
> here is my source code http://txt.do/1smv

No, your program outputs nothing. That's bound to fail. ;)

How is your program supposed to work, in your own words?

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From geezle86 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:35:20 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:35:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <02798e66-515f-45d8-9f45-92f58b16642d@googlegroups.com>

> x = input() 
> 
> if x.isdigit() == False: 
>     i = len(x) 
>     j = i - 1 
>     k = i - 2 
> 
>     xList = list(x) 
> 
>     if len(xList) > 4: 
>         print(xList[0], int(k), xList[j], sep='', end='') 
>     else: 
>         print(x) 
> else: 
>     SystemExit

I just dont understand what is wrong, seriously. I mean. They said:

"..if its length is strictly more than 10 characters. All too long words should be replaced with a special abbreviation."

and:
"... This abbreviation is made like this: we write down the first and the last letter of a word and between them we write the number of letters between the first and the last letters. That number is in decimal system and doesn't contain any leading zeroes."

I solved it with my:

xList = list(x) 

    if len(xList) > 4: 
        print(xList[0], int(k), xList[j], sep='', end='') 
    else: 
        print(x)

really, i dont know why.. :(


From davea at davea.name  Tue Dec  3 12:58:13 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:58:13 -0500
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <02798e66-515f-45d8-9f45-92f58b16642d@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
 <02798e66-515f-45d8-9f45-92f58b16642d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.3892998996855420099@news.gmane.org>

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:35:20 -0800 (PST), geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> really, i dont know why.. :(

How about because you do a system exit on the first line of their 
input? The one that's all digits. And even if you get past that, you 
only process one of their words.

-- 
DaveA



From geezle86 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:36:31 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:36:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <01b71b3a-f324-4850-a566-b5402e48baf0@googlegroups.com>

> x = input() 
> 
> if x.isdigit() == False: 
>     i = len(x) 
>     j = i - 1 
>     k = i - 2 
> 
>     xList = list(x) 
> 
>     if len(xList) > 4: 
>         print(xList[0], int(k), xList[j], sep='', end='') 
>     else: 
>         print(x) 
> else: 
>     SystemExit 

I just dont understand what is wrong, seriously. I mean. They said: 

"..if its length is strictly more than 10 characters. All too long words should be replaced with a special abbreviation." 

and: 
"... This abbreviation is made like this: we write down the first and the last letter of a word and between them we write the number of letters between the first and the last letters. That number is in decimal system and doesn't contain any leading zeroes." 

I solved it with my: 

xList = list(x) 

    if len(xList) > 10: #I changed it from 4, still not accepted
        print(xList[0], int(k), xList[j], sep='', end='') 
    else: 
        print(x) 

really, i dont know why.. :(


From neilc at norwich.edu  Tue Dec  3 11:58:45 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 16:58:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
 <01b71b3a-f324-4850-a566-b5402e48baf0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7l2k5$n95$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-03, geezle86 at gmail.com <geezle86 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> x = input() 

Your first problem is that input() returns text only up the a
newline, and then stops.

So you are reading the initial number line, but never reading the
rest of the lines.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From geezle86 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 11:38:46 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 08:38:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <66f9ae94-9ba6-4468-a43f-57b19f57816e@googlegroups.com>

Well,
i've changed the "if len(xList).." from 4 to 10

But still, it is not accepted :(



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec  3 11:51:02 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 16:51:02 +0000
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <66f9ae94-9ba6-4468-a43f-57b19f57816e@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
 <66f9ae94-9ba6-4468-a43f-57b19f57816e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7l251$it2$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 03/12/2013 16:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> Well,
> i've changed the "if len(xList).." from 4 to 10
>
> But still, it is not accepted :(
>

Where is your code that meets these requirements?

Input
The first line contains an integer n (1?=?n?=?100). Each of the
following n lines contains one word. All the words consist of
lowercase Latin letters and possess the lengths of from 1 to
100 characters.

Output
Print n lines. The i-th line should contain the result of
replacing of the i-th word from the input data

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 12:19:58 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
In-Reply-To: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <49c77ea4-21ab-40f2-a141-975b6f4daa39@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:18:43 PM UTC+5:30, geez... at gmail.com wrote:
> I am trying to solve this problem:
>
> http://codeforces.com/problemset/problem/71/A
>
> The input and output is as wanted, but my answer keep rejected, here is my source code http://txt.do/1smv
>
> Please, I need help.

I suggest you take your problem one step at a time, like this:

1. You need to convert a string like "localization" to "l10n"
Write a function that takes strings like "localization" and RETURNS strings
like "l10n". The function SHOULD NOT use print.

2. Now you need to convert a list of strings like
["word", "localization", "internationalization",
"pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis" ]
to a list like
["word", "l10n", "i18n", "p43s"]
You can use the above function (1). NO PRINTS

3. Use the function in 2 above to solve the problem.
Here you may use print


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 18:52:25 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 23:52:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: The input and output is as wanted, but why error?
References: <387f5b5f-faf1-4715-8d49-e366be53fd00@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7lqrp$rmj$2@dont-email.me>

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 07:48:43 -0800, geezle86 wrote:

> I am trying to solve this problem:
> 
> http://codeforces.com/problemset/problem/71/A

That's not a problem, it's a url.

> The input and output is as wanted, but my answer keep rejected, here is
> my source code http://txt.do/1smv

That's not source code, it's a url.

> Please, I need help.

As my newsreader isn't a web browser, I can't help. Sorry.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Tue Dec  3 12:14:49 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:14:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with names
 not being valid identifiers?
Message-ID: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>

Hi!

I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.
What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar way to other attributes?
Something along the line of my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'?


Regards,
Piotr Dobrogost


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec  3 12:38:21 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:38:21 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7l4u3$mm5$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/3/13 12:14 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.
> What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar way to other attributes?
> Something along the line of my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'?
>
>
> Regards,
> Piotr Dobrogost
>

I don't know the real reason, but I imagine it would be that it would be 
very rarely used.  It would need to be an attribute that isn't a valid 
identifier, and you know the attribute at the time you write the code.

I can see scenarios for needing attributes that aren't identifiers, but 
in many of them you also need to access them through a variable rather 
than literally.

--Ned.



From davea at davea.name  Tue Dec  3 12:48:38 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 12:48:38 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Why_is_there_no_natural_syntax_for_accessing_a?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ttributes_with_names=0A_not_being_valid_identifiers=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.4974296960046221120@news.gmane.org>

On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:14:49 -0800 (PST), Piotr Dobrogost 
<p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.

Me too. 
> What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access 
attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar 
way to other attributes?

There is.  Just use a dictionary.

-- 
DaveA



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec  3 12:31:58 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:31:58 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529E158E.5000106@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/03/2013 09:14 AM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>
> I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.
> What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to
>  access attributes with names not being valid Python
>  identifiers in a similar way to other attributes?
>
> Something along the line of my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'?

When would you have attribute names that are not valid identifiers?

--
~Ethan~


From random832 at fastmail.us  Tue Dec  3 13:03:41 2013
From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 13:03:41 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with names
 not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1386093821.5913.55047941.073BAC99@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013, at 12:14, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.
> What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access
> attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar way
> to other attributes?
> Something along the line of
> my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'?

The getattr function is meant for when your attribute name is in a
variable. Being able to use strings that aren't valid identifiers is a
side effect. Why are you designing classes with attributes that aren't
valid identifiers?


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Tue Dec  3 18:47:37 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 15:47:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 7:03:41 PM UTC+1, rand... at fastmail.us wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013, at 12:14, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> 
> > Hi!
> 
> > I find global getattr() function awkward when reading code.
> > What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access
> > attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar way
> > to other attributes?
> > Something along the line of
> > my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'?
> 
> The getattr function is meant for when your attribute name is in a
> variable. Being able to use strings that aren't valid identifiers is a
> side effect. 

Why do you say it's a side effect? Could you elaborate? I see nothing odd in passing literal (string literal in this case) as a value of function's argument.

> Why are you designing classes with attributes that aren't
> valid identifiers?

Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred to dict's interface. That's why various containers expose their elements as attributes. In my case I'm using in-house web form library which provides FieldSet class holding objects of type Field or other FieldSets. This nesting leads to names of the form 'outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field' which are not valid identifiers due to minus sign.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Tue Dec  3 20:06:44 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 19:06:44 -0600
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131203190644.2c784f4f@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-03 15:47, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> > The getattr function is meant for when your attribute name is in a
> > variable. Being able to use strings that aren't valid identifiers
> > is a side effect.   
> 
> Why do you say it's a side effect?

I think random832 is saying that the designed purpose of setattr()
was to dynamically set attributes by name, so they could later be
accessed the traditional way; not designed from the ground-up to
support non-identifier names.  But because of the getattr/setattr
machinery (dict key/value pairs), it doesn't prevent you from having
non-identifiers as names as long as you use only the getattr/setattr
method of accessing them.

I see non-traditional-identifiers most frequently in test code where
the globals() dictionary gets injected with various objects for
testing purposes, driven by a table with descriptors.  Something like
(untested)

  tests = [
     dict(desc="Test 1", input=10, expected=42),
     dict(desc="Test 2", input=314, expected=159),
     ]
  for test in tests:
    test_name = "test_" + test["desc"]
    globals()[test_name] = generate_test_function(
       test["input"], test["output"])

-tkc





From timr at probo.com  Wed Dec  4 00:45:05 2013
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 21:45:05 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>

Piotr Dobrogost <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
>
>Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred 
>to dict's interface. 

It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.

    x = obj.value1
    x = dct['value1']

You have saved 3 keystrokes.  That is not a significant enough savings to
create new syntax.  Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be
one way to do it.
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 01:31:44 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 22:31:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:15:05 AM UTC+5:30, Tim Roberts wrote:
> Piotr Dobrogost  wrote:
> >
> >Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred 
> >to dict's interface. 
>
> It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.
>
>     x = obj.value1
>     x = dct['value1']
>
> You have saved 3 keystrokes.  That is not a significant enough savings to
> create new syntax.  Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be
> one way to do it.

Its a more fundamental problem than that:
It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
Is that all?

Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 03:57:28 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 01:57:28 -0700
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidkW_z4WEQPUMWqVs7upkpoGv5PWoMoNxkVnfEg=bBYvpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> Its a more fundamental problem than that:
> It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
> Is that all?
>
> Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?

At non-strings.

>>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 05:09:37 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:09:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:27:28 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
> > Its a more fundamental problem than that:
> > It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
> > Is that all?
> >
> > Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?
>
> At non-strings.
>
> >>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'

Not sure what's your point. 

OP wants attribute identifiers like outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field.
Say I have a python expression: 
obj.outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field

It can (in the proposed extension) be parsed as above, or as:
obj.outer_fieldset - inner_fieldset-third_field
the first hyphen being minus and the second being part of the identifier.

How do we decide which '-' are valid identifier components -- hyphens
and which minus-signs?

So to state my point differently:
The grammar of python is well-defined
It has a 'sub-grammar' of strings that is completely* free-for-all ie just
about anything can be put into a string literal.
The border between the orderly and the wild world are the quote-marks.
Remove that border and you get complete grammatical chaos.
[Maybe I should have qualified my reference to 'spaces'.
Algol-68 allowed spaces in identifiers (for readability!!)
The result was chaos]

I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. Other characters (that
already have uses) are just as problematic.

* Oh well there are some restrictions like quotes need to be escaped, no 
  newlines etc etc -- minor enough to be ignored.


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Wed Dec  4 05:29:06 2013
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:29:06 +0100
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529F03F2.5070707@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 04-12-13 11:09, rusi schreef:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:27:28 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
>>> Its a more fundamental problem than that:
>>> It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
>>> Is that all?
>>>
>>> Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?
>>
>> At non-strings.
>>
>>>>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>> TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'
> 
> Not sure what's your point. 
> 
> OP wants attribute identifiers like outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field.
> Say I have a python expression: 
> obj.outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field
> 
> It can (in the proposed extension) be parsed as above, or as:
> obj.outer_fieldset - inner_fieldset-third_field
> the first hyphen being minus and the second being part of the identifier.
> 
> How do we decide which '-' are valid identifier components -- hyphens
> and which minus-signs?
> 
> So to state my point differently:
> The grammar of python is well-defined
> It has a 'sub-grammar' of strings that is completely* free-for-all ie just
> about anything can be put into a string literal.
> The border between the orderly and the wild world are the quote-marks.
> Remove that border and you get complete grammatical chaos.
> [Maybe I should have qualified my reference to 'spaces'.
> Algol-68 allowed spaces in identifiers (for readability!!)
> The result was chaos]
> 
> I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. Other characters (that
> already have uses) are just as problematic.

I don't agree with the latter. As it is now python can make the
distinction between

from A import B    and     fromAimportB.

I see no a priori reason why this should be limited to letters. A
language designer might choose to allow a bigger set of characters
in identifiers like '-', '+' and others. In that case a-b would be
an identifier and a - b would be the operation. Just as in python
fromAimportB is an identifier and from A import B is an import
statement.

-- 
Antoon Pardon



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 05:33:14 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 21:33:14 +1100
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqsL0YrZ33WZJwey_pXFOge-OdYF9VAm9=4b4FqBbzRVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> OP wants attribute identifiers like outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field.
> Say I have a python expression:
> obj.outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field

I don't think so. What the OP asked for was:

my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'

Or describing it another way: A literal string instead of a token.
This is conceivable, at least, but I don't think it gives any
advantage over a dictionary.

What you could do, though, is create a single object that can be
indexed either with dot notation or as a dictionary. For that to work,
there'd have to be some restrictions (eg no leading underscores - at
very least, __token__ should be special still), but it wouldn't be
hard to do - two magic methods and the job's done, I think; you might
even be able to manage on one. (Code golf challenge, anyone?) Of
course, there's still the question of whether that even is an
advantage.

ChrisA


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec  4 06:25:15 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 05:25:15 -0600
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqsL0YrZ33WZJwey_pXFOge-OdYF9VAm9=4b4FqBbzRVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqsL0YrZ33WZJwey_pXFOge-OdYF9VAm9=4b4FqBbzRVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131204052515.593b0d27@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-04 21:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I don't think so. What the OP asked for was:
> 
> my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'
> 
> Or describing it another way: A literal string instead of a token.
> This is conceivable, at least, but I don't think it gives any
> advantage over a dictionary.

In both cases (attribute-access-as-dict-functionality and
attribute-access-as-avoiding-setattr), forcing a literal actually
diminishes Python's power.  I like the ability to do

  a[key.strip().lower()] = some_value
  setattr(thing, key.strip().lower(), some_value)

which can't be done (?) with mere literal notation.  What would they
look like?

  a.(key.strip().lower()) = some_value

(note that "key.strip().lower()" not actually a "literal" that
ast.literal_eval would accept). That's pretty ugly, IMHO :-)

-tkc





From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 06:27:46 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 03:27:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3553.1386153202.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3553.1386153202.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41f1543d-edb7-4e8d-bb47-f23d0440f180@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:03:14 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, rusi  wrote:
> > OP wants attribute identifiers like outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field.
> > Say I have a python expression:
> > obj.outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field
>
> I don't think so. What the OP asked for was:
>
> my_object.'valid-attribute-name-but-not-valid-identifier'
>
> Or describing it another way: A literal string instead of a token.

This is just pushing the issue one remove away.
Firstly a literal string is very much a token -- lexically.
Now consider the syntax as defined by the grammar.

Let Ident = Set of strings* that are valid python identifiers -- 
something like [a-zA-Z][a-zA-Z0-9]*

Let Exp = Set to strings* that are python expressions

* Note that I am using string from the language implementers pov not language
user ie the python identifier var is the implementers string "var" whereas
the python string literal "var" is the implementer's string "\"var\""

Now clearly Ident is a proper subset of Exp.

Now what is the proposal?
You want to extend the syntactically allowable a.b set.
If the b's can be any arbitrary expression we can have
var.fld(1,2) with the grammatical ambiguity that this can be
(var.fld)(1,2)   -- the usual interpretation
Or
var.(fld(1,2)) -- the new interpretation -- ie a computed field name.

OTOH if you say superset of Ident but subset of Exp, then we have to determine
what this new limbo set is to be. ie what is the grammatical category of 
'what-follows-a-dot' ??

Some other-language notes:
1. In C there is one case somewhat like this:
#include "string"
the "string" cannot be an arbitrary expression as the rest of C.  But then this 
is not really C but the C preprocessor

2. In lisp the Ident set is way more permissive than in most languages -- 
allowing operators etc that would be delimiters in most languages.
If one wants to go even beyond that and include say spaces and parenthesis -- 
almost the only delimiters that lisp has -- one must write |ident with spaces|
ie for identifiers the bars behave somewhat like strings' quote marks.
Because the semantics of identifiers and strings are different -- the lexical
structures need to reflect that difference -- so you cannot replace the bars
by quotes.


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Wed Dec  4 06:30:06 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 04 Dec 2013 13:30:06 +0200
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qotzjogonup.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

rusi writes:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:27:28 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
> > > Its a more fundamental problem than that:
> > > It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the
> > > attributes.  Is that all?
> > >
> > > Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?
> >
> > At non-strings.
> >
> > >>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> > TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'
> 
> Not sure what's your point. 
> 
> OP wants attribute identifiers like
> outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field.
> Say I have a python expression: 
> obj.outer_fieldset-inner_fieldset-third_field
> 
> It can (in the proposed extension) be parsed as above, or as:
> obj.outer_fieldset - inner_fieldset-third_field
> the first hyphen being minus and the second being part of the
> identifier.
> 
> How do we decide which '-' are valid identifier components --
> hyphens and which minus-signs?

I think the OP might be after the JavaScript mechanism where an
attribute name can be any string, the indexing brackets are always
available, and the dot notation is available when the attribute name
looks like a simple identifier. That could be made to work. (I'm not
saying should, or should not. Just that it seems technically simple.)

Hm. Can't specific classes be made to behave this way even now by
implementing suitable underscored methods?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 06:40:01 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 22:40:01 +1100
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <qotzjogonup.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <qotzjogonup.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrSc4hSLBM954M3xrgGRXL-Ye6_oDFprY-9V8d2U4WGaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Jussi Piitulainen
<jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> Hm. Can't specific classes be made to behave this way even now by
> implementing suitable underscored methods?

Yup. Definitely possible. I don't think it'd be a good idea, though,
not without somehow changing every dict method into a stand-alone
function.

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 10:56:13 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 07:56:13 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <qotzjogonup.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <qotzjogonup.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <529F509D.9010803@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 03:30 AM, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> rusi writes:
>>
>> How do we decide which '-' are valid identifier components --
>> hyphens and which minus-signs?
>
> I think the OP might be after the JavaScript mechanism where an
> attribute name can be any string, the indexing brackets are always
> available, and the dot notation is available when the attribute name
> looks like a simple identifier. That could be made to work. (I'm not
> saying should, or should not. Just that it seems technically simple.)
>
> Hm. Can't specific classes be made to behave this way even now by
> implementing suitable underscored methods?

No.  It is possible to provide attribute access along with key access, but not currently possible to provide attribute 
access with quoted values -- which is what the OP wants.

--
~Ethan~


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 07:01:23 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 04:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3552.1386152954.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3552.1386152954.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <68a2d20a-793f-4493-b856-c6c65617eb0d@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 3:59:06 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 04-12-13 11:09, rusi schreef:
> > I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. 
> > Other characters (that
> > already have uses) are just as problematic.
>
> I don't agree with the latter. As it is now python can make the
> distinction between
>
> from A import B    and     fromAimportB.
>
> I see no a priori reason why this should be limited to letters. A
> language designer might choose to allow a bigger set of characters
> in identifiers like '-', '+' and others. In that case a-b would be
> an identifier and a - b would be the operation. Just as in python
> fromAimportB is an identifier and from A import B is an import
> statement.

Im not sure what you are saying.
Sure a language designer can design a language differently from python.
I mentioned lisp. Cobol is another behaving exactly as you describe.

My point is that when you do (something like) that, you will need to change the
lexical and grammatical structure of the language.  And this will make 
for rather far-reaching changes ALL OVER the language not just in what-follows-dot.

IOW: I dont agree that we have a disagreement :-)


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Wed Dec  4 07:32:18 2013
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:32:18 +0100
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <68a2d20a-793f-4493-b856-c6c65617eb0d@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3552.1386152954.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <68a2d20a-793f-4493-b856-c6c65617eb0d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529F20D2.90701@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 04-12-13 13:01, rusi schreef:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 3:59:06 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 04-12-13 11:09, rusi schreef:
>>> I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. 
>>> Other characters (that
>>> already have uses) are just as problematic.
>>
>> I don't agree with the latter. As it is now python can make the
>> distinction between
>>
>> from A import B    and     fromAimportB.
>>
>> I see no a priori reason why this should be limited to letters. A
>> language designer might choose to allow a bigger set of characters
>> in identifiers like '-', '+' and others. In that case a-b would be
>> an identifier and a - b would be the operation. Just as in python
>> fromAimportB is an identifier and from A import B is an import
>> statement.
> 
> Im not sure what you are saying.
> Sure a language designer can design a language differently from python.
> I mentioned lisp. Cobol is another behaving exactly as you describe.
> 
> My point is that when you do (something like) that, you will need to change the
> lexical and grammatical structure of the language.  And this will make 
> for rather far-reaching changes ALL OVER the language not just in what-follows-dot.

No you don't need to change the lexical and grammatical structure of
the language. Changing the characters allowed in identifiers, is not a
change in lexical structure. The only difference in lexical structuring
would be that '-', '>=' and other similars symbols would have to be
treated like keyword like 'from', 'as' etc instead of being recognizable
by just being present.

And the grammatical structure of the language wouldn't change at all.
Sure a-b would now be an identifier and not an operation but that is
of no concern for the parser.

People would have to be careful to insert spaces around operators
and that might make the language somewhat error prone but that doesn't
mean the syntactical structure is different.

-- 
Antoon Pardon


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 08:02:37 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 05:02:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3560.1386160340.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3552.1386152954.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <68a2d20a-793f-4493-b856-c6c65617eb0d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3560.1386160340.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a1938295-93bf-4d25-9ab6-9fac211b83eb@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:02:18 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 04-12-13 13:01, rusi schreef:
> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 3:59:06 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> >> Op 04-12-13 11:09, rusi schreef:
> >>> I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. 
> >>> Other characters (that
> >>> already have uses) are just as problematic.
> >>
> >> I don't agree with the latter. As it is now python can make the
> >> distinction between
> >>
> >> from A import B    and     fromAimportB.
> >>
> >> I see no a priori reason why this should be limited to letters. A
> >> language designer might choose to allow a bigger set of characters
> >> in identifiers like '-', '+' and others. In that case a-b would be
> >> an identifier and a - b would be the operation. Just as in python
> >> fromAimportB is an identifier and from A import B is an import
> >> statement.
> > 
> > Im not sure what you are saying.
> > Sure a language designer can design a language differently from python.
> > I mentioned lisp. Cobol is another behaving exactly as you describe.
> > 
> > My point is that when you do (something like) that, you will need to change the
> > lexical and grammatical structure of the language.  And this will make 
> > for rather far-reaching changes ALL OVER the language not just in what-follows-dot.
>
> No you don't need to change the lexical and grammatical structure of
> the language. Changing the characters allowed in identifiers, is not a
> change in lexical structure. The only difference in lexical structuring
> would be that '-', '>=' and other similars symbols would have to be
> treated like keyword like 'from', 'as' etc instead of being recognizable
> by just being present.

Well I am mystified?
Consider the string a-b in a program text.
A Cobol or Lisp system sees this as one identifier.
Python, C (and most modern languages) see this ident, operator, ident.

As I understand it this IS the lexical structure of the language and the lexer
is the part that implements this:
- in cobol/lisp keeping it as one
- in python/C breaking it into 3

Maybe you understand in some other way the phrase "lexical structure"?

> And the grammatical structure of the language wouldn't change at all.
> Sure a-b would now be an identifier and not an operation but that is
> of no concern for the parser.

About grammar maybe what you are saying will hold: presumably if the token-set
is the same, one could keep the same grammar, with the differences being 
entirely inter-lexeme ones.


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Wed Dec  4 14:57:11 2013
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:57:11 +0100
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <a1938295-93bf-4d25-9ab6-9fac211b83eb@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3552.1386152954.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <68a2d20a-793f-4493-b856-c6c65617eb0d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3560.1386160340.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a1938295-93bf-4d25-9ab6-9fac211b83eb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529F8917.8020004@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 04-12-13 14:02, rusi schreef:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:02:18 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>> Op 04-12-13 13:01, rusi schreef:
>>> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 3:59:06 PM UTC+5:30, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>>> Op 04-12-13 11:09, rusi schreef:
>>>>> I used the spaces case to indicate the limit of chaos. 
>>>>> Other characters (that
>>>>> already have uses) are just as problematic.
>>>>
>>>> I don't agree with the latter. As it is now python can make the
>>>> distinction between
>>>>
>>>> from A import B    and     fromAimportB.
>>>>
>>>> I see no a priori reason why this should be limited to letters. A
>>>> language designer might choose to allow a bigger set of characters
>>>> in identifiers like '-', '+' and others. In that case a-b would be
>>>> an identifier and a - b would be the operation. Just as in python
>>>> fromAimportB is an identifier and from A import B is an import
>>>> statement.
>>>
>>> Im not sure what you are saying.
>>> Sure a language designer can design a language differently from python.
>>> I mentioned lisp. Cobol is another behaving exactly as you describe.
>>>
>>> My point is that when you do (something like) that, you will need to change the
>>> lexical and grammatical structure of the language.  And this will make 
>>> for rather far-reaching changes ALL OVER the language not just in what-follows-dot.
>>
>> No you don't need to change the lexical and grammatical structure of
>> the language. Changing the characters allowed in identifiers, is not a
>> change in lexical structure. The only difference in lexical structuring
>> would be that '-', '>=' and other similars symbols would have to be
>> treated like keyword like 'from', 'as' etc instead of being recognizable
>> by just being present.
> 
> Well I am mystified?
> Consider the string a-b in a program text.
> A Cobol or Lisp system sees this as one identifier.
> Python, C (and most modern languages) see this ident, operator, ident.
> 
> As I understand it this IS the lexical structure of the language and the lexer
> is the part that implements this:
> - in cobol/lisp keeping it as one
> - in python/C breaking it into 3
> 
> Maybe you understand in some other way the phrase "lexical structure"?

Yes I do. The fact that a certain string is lexically evaluated differently
is IMO not enough to conclude the language has a different lexical structure.
It only means that the values allowed within the structure are different. What
I see here is that some languages have an other alphabet over which identifiers
are allowed.

>> And the grammatical structure of the language wouldn't change at all.
>> Sure a-b would now be an identifier and not an operation but that is
>> of no concern for the parser.
> 
> About grammar maybe what you are saying will hold: presumably if the token-set
> is the same, one could keep the same grammar, with the differences being 
> entirely inter-lexeme ones.

And the question is. If the token-set is the same, how is then is the lexical
structure different rather than just the possible values associate with the tokens?

-- 
Antoon Pardon



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 21:43:49 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 19:43:49 -0700
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidmupRoW2dpyN9XSNHDrhzQgh7FYAaWZ3WLpMPEU=bH-JQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:09 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:27:28 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
>> > Its a more fundamental problem than that:
>> > It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
>> > Is that all?
>> >
>> > Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?
>>
>> At non-strings.
>>
>> >>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>> TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'
>
> Not sure what's your point.

There was no point.  My comment was only meant to be amusing.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 23:48:29 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 20:48:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3598.1386211480.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3546.1386147492.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <549180f1-fb98-4b59-b92f-5beceb1a6fb5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3598.1386211480.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <893d6e43-ac3b-4459-b72b-3106157a301d@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 8:13:49 AM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:09 AM, rusi  wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:27:28 PM UTC+5:30, Ian wrote:
> >> On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 11:31 PM, rusi  wrote:
> >> > Its a more fundamental problem than that:
> >> > It emerges from the OP's second post) that he wants '-' in the attributes.
> >> > Is that all?
> >> >
> >> > Where does this syntax-enlargement stop? Spaces? Newlines?
> >>
> >> At non-strings.
> >>
> >> >>> setattr(foo, 21+21, 42)
> >> Traceback (most recent call last):
> >>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> >> TypeError: attribute name must be string, not 'int'
> >
> > Not sure what's your point.
>
> There was no point.  My comment was only meant to be amusing.

Duh! Im dense!


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec  4 20:03:14 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:03:14 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <080d6a56-588b-425f-8968-8f77bc330427@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3594.1386203271.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-137A15.20031404122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3594.1386203271.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> 	Spaces? I present to you two FORTRAN statements
> 
> 	DO 10 I = 3           .           14159
> and
> 	DO10I = 3           ,               1 4 1 5 9
> 
> Which is the loop and which is the assignment?

I know it's rude to quote oneself, but:

http://www.python.org/doc/humor/#bad-habits


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 04:12:52 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 01:12:52 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <529EF214.10604@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/03/2013 09:45 PM, Tim Roberts wrote:
> Piotr Dobrogost <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
>>
>> Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred
>> to dict's interface.
>
> It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.
>
>      x = obj.value1
>      x = dct['value1']
>
> You have saved 3 keystrokes.  That is not a significant enough savings to
> create new syntax.  Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be
> one way to do it.

That should be "one obvious way".

On my keyboard, at least, those are an important three keystrokes!  ;)

To be clear, I am

-1

on the new syntax.

--
~Ethan~


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec  4 08:23:24 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:23:24 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <roy-5898BE.08232404122013@news.panix.com>

In article <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf at 4ax.com>,
 Tim Roberts <timr at probo.com> wrote:

> Piotr Dobrogost <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> >
> >Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred 
> >to dict's interface. 
> 
> It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.
> 
>     x = obj.value1
>     x = dct['value1']
> 
> You have saved 3 keystrokes.  That is not a significant enough savings to
> create new syntax.  Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be
> one way to do it.

I'll trade typing [ ' ' ] for .  any day.  Easier to type, easier to 
read.  It's not just the character count, it's that you need to move 
your fingers off the home row (or, at the very least, a big stretch with 
your pinkie) to reach the brackets.  I suppose that depends on your 
particular keyboard layout and typing style/skill.


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 16:00:32 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:00:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <roy-5898BE.08232404122013@news.panix.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <roy-5898BE.08232404122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <c6264768-3485-4872-b575-da9d4c070fc7@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:23:24 PM UTC+1, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf at 4ax.com>,
> 
>  Tim Roberts <> wrote:
> 
> > Piotr Dobrogost <> wrote:
> 
> > >Attribute access syntax being very concise is very often preferred 
> > >to dict's interface. 
> 
> > It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.
> 
> >     x = obj.value1
> >     x = dct['value1']
> 
> > You have saved 3 keystrokes.  That is not a significant enough savings to
> > create new syntax.  Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be
> > one way to do it.
> 
> I'll trade typing [ ' ' ] for .  any day.  Easier to type, easier to 
> read.  It's not just the character count, it's that you need to move 
> your fingers off the home row (or, at the very least, a big stretch with 
> your pinkie) to reach the brackets.  I suppose that depends on your 
> particular keyboard layout and typing style/skill.

Very true. Just a remark it's actually trading getattr(o,'x') for o.'x' (saving of 11 keystrokes - don't forget shifts :)) as attribute is quite a different beast then key in a dictionary so comparing this to dict's interface is comparing apples to oranges.

Regards,
Piotr


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 15:07:17 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:45:05 AM UTC+1, Tim Roberts wrote:
> 
> It is not "very concise".  It is slightly more concise.
> 
>     x = obj.value1
>     x = dct['value1']
> 
> You have saved 3 keystrokes.  

Actually only 1 as you should have compared these:
x = obj.'value-1'
x = dct['value-1']

Unless we compare with what we have now, which gives 9 (without space) or 10 (with space):
x = obj.'value-1'
x = getattr(obj, 'value-1')

> That is not a significant enough savings to create new syntax.  

Well, 9 characters is probably significant enough saving to create new syntax but saving these characters is only a side effect and is not the most important aspect of this proposal which leads us to the next point.

> Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be one way to do it.

Funny you use this argument against my idea as this idea comes from following this rule whereas getattr goes against it. Using dot is the main syntax to access attributes. Following this, the syntax I'm proposing is much more in line with this primary syntax than getattr is. If there ought to be only one way to access attributes then it should be dot notation.

Regards,
Piotr


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 15:22:59 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:22:59 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529F8F23.20006@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 12:07 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>
> If there ought to be only one way to access attributes then it should
>  be dot notation.

Not "only one way", it's "one obvious way".

The obvious way to deal with objects that do not have legal identifier names is with a dict.

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 15:55:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:55:35 +0000
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <529F8F23.20006@stoneleaf.us>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
 <529F8F23.20006@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l7o4rv$b5a$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 20:22, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/04/2013 12:07 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>>
>> If there ought to be only one way to access attributes then it should
>>  be dot notation.
>
> Not "only one way", it's "one obvious way".
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

Not "one obvious way" it's "There should be one-- and preferably only 
one --obvious way to do it.".  Get it right lad :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 16:00:58 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:00:58 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <l7o4rv$b5a$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
 <529F8F23.20006@stoneleaf.us> <l7o4rv$b5a$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529F980A.6020807@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 12:55 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 20:22, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 12/04/2013 12:07 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>>>
>>> If there ought to be only one way to access attributes then it should
>>>  be dot notation.
>>
>> Not "only one way", it's "one obvious way".
>>
>
> Not "one obvious way" it's "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.".  Get it right lad :)

I was paraphrasing.  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec  4 17:11:56 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:11:56 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7o9b3$b0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/2013 3:07 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:

You have proposed to make non-identifier attribute names 'official', 
rather than discouraged, by abbreviating
 > x = getattr(obj, 'value-1')
or
x = obj.__dict__['value-1']  # implementation detail
as
> x = obj.'value-1'

The discussion of enlarging the scope of 'identifier' is not relevant as 
you are not proposing that. In particular, you are not asking that 
obj.value-1 get the 'value-1' attribute of obj. The discussion of 
keystrokes is also a side-track.

What you are proposing, I believe, is a new grammatical category: 
attribute-name := identifier or string-literal. This would break the 
symmetry of the grammatical form identifier '.' identifier and change it 
to the asymmetrical identifier '.' attribute-name, and that is the 
problem.  Most identifiers are attributes of a namespace and many 
attributes are set *and accessed* as undotted names in module or class 
code.  The symmetry is at least partly inherent and breaking it does not 
work very well.

 >>> len is __builtins__.len
True
 >>> __globals__ = __import__(__name__)
 >>> a = 1
 >>> a is __globals__.a
True

To put it another way, how does 'obj' get the non-standard attribute 
'value-1', when obj is a module or class? The workaround given above for 
module attributes will not work for classes.

>> Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be one way to do
>> it.
>
> Funny you use this argument against my idea as this idea comes from
> following this rule whereas getattr goes against it.

Not really. As others have pointed out, getattr is the preferred way to 
get the value of an attribute when you have an object with attributes 
and a run-time-only reference to the name in a string variable.

It would also be the case that "obj.'value' is obj.value", so the 
proposal *would* add duplication.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 18:42:14 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 15:42:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3590.1386195130.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3590.1386195130.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <451d174b-6620-476d-bf84-a76c6b1de87e@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:11:56 PM UTC+1, Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
> The discussion of enlarging the scope of 'identifier' is not relevant as 
> you are not proposing that. In particular, you are not asking that 
> obj.value-1 get the 'value-1' attribute of obj. 

Right.

> The discussion of keystrokes is also a side-track.

To great degree, yes. Having said that I find extra 11 keystrokes needed to access some attributes to be a freaking big and unjustifiable number.

> What you are proposing, I believe, is a new grammatical category: 
> attribute-name := identifier or string-literal. This would break the 
> symmetry of the grammatical form identifier '.' identifier and change it 
> to the asymmetrical identifier '.' attribute-name, and that is the 

Nice description.

> To put it another way, how does 'obj' get the non-standard attribute 
> 'value-1', when obj is a module or class? The workaround given above for 
> module attributes will not work for classes.

I'm not sure I see your point. Do you mean that being inside class declaration there's no name that referrs to the current namespace (the way __globals__ refer to module's namespace) thus we can't use proposed syntax to access non-standard attributes from this namespace?

> 
> >> Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be one way to do
> >> it.
> 
> > Funny you use this argument against my idea as this idea comes from
> > following this rule whereas getattr goes against it.
> 
> Not really. As others have pointed out, getattr is the preferred way to 
> get the value of an attribute when you have an object with attributes 
> and a run-time-only reference to the name in a string variable.

Yes, and I think it's very unfortunate in itself. Attribute access is fundamental operation and it's not accident that "operator" for this action is very concise in many languages being one char only. Having to switch to global function to access attribute in case its name is known only at run time is very awkward both when writing and reading code.

> It would also be the case that "obj.'value' is obj.value", so the 
> proposal *would* add duplication.

This is not a big deal and that's what you get when someone had already decided that in expression a.b, b is treated literally.


Regards,
Piotr


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec  4 22:21:06 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:21:06 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <451d174b-6620-476d-bf84-a76c6b1de87e@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3590.1386195130.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <451d174b-6620-476d-bf84-a76c6b1de87e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7orep$sac$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/2013 6:42 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:11:56 PM UTC+1, Terry Reedy wrote:

>> The discussion of keystrokes is also a side-track.
>
> To great degree, yes. Having said that I find extra 11 keystrokes
> needed to access some attributes to be a freaking big and
> unjustifiable number.

Given that there is almost no need to ever use operator chars in 
attribute names and given that syntax changes have the major undesirable 
consequence of backward incompatibility, I find it to be a small and 
inconsequential number.

>> What you are proposing, I believe, is a new grammatical category:
>> attribute-name := identifier or string-literal. This would break
>> the symmetry of the grammatical form identifier '.' identifier and
>> change it to the asymmetrical identifier '.' attribute-name, and
>> that is the
>
> Nice description.
>
>> To put it another way, how does 'obj' get the non-standard
>> attribute 'value-1', when obj is a module or class? The workaround
>> given above for module attributes will not work for classes.

The module workaround, which I find pretty ugly, is this:

 >>> len is __builtins__.len
True
 >>> __globals__ = __import__(__name__)
 >>> a = 1
 >>> a is __globals__.a
True

I have not checked that the import trick will work when a module is 
imported, but I believe it will.

> I'm not sure I see your point. Do you mean that being inside class
> declaration there's no name that referrs to the current namespace
> (the way __globals__ refer to module's namespace) thus we can't use
> proposed syntax to access non-standard attributes from this
> namespace?

Right. Class objects are not created until after the class code runs.

>> Not really. As others have pointed out, getattr is the preferred
>> way to get the value of an attribute when you have an object with
>> attributes and a run-time-only reference to the name in a string
>> variable.
>
> Yes, and I think it's very unfortunate in itself.

Do you prefer obj.__dict__['name'] to getattr(obj, 'name')?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From sg552 at hotmail.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 20:50:59 2013
From: sg552 at hotmail.co.uk (Rotwang)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 01:50:59 +0000
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <17gt99hg615jfm7bdid26185884d2pfdkf@4ax.com>
 <5eb566a0-3911-48fa-ba83-a863da66a55d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7om66$219$1@dont-email.me>

On 04/12/2013 20:07, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>> [...]
>
> Unless we compare with what we have now, which gives 9 (without space) or 10 (with space):
> x = obj.'value-1'
> x = getattr(obj, 'value-1')
>
>> That is not a significant enough savings to create new syntax.
>
> Well, 9 characters is probably significant enough saving to create new syntax but saving these characters is only a side effect and is not the most important aspect of this proposal which leads us to the next point.
>
>> Remember the Python philosophy that there ought to be one way to do it.
>
> Funny you use this argument against my idea as this idea comes from following this rule whereas getattr goes against it. Using dot is the main syntax to access attributes. Following this, the syntax I'm proposing is much more in line with this primary syntax than getattr is. If there ought to be only one way to access attributes then it should be dot notation.

I believe that you are missing the point of getattr. It's not there so 
that one can use arbitrary strings as attribute names; it's there so 
that one can get attributes with names that aren't known until run time. 
For this purpose the dot-notation-with-quotes you suggest above is not 
good enough. For suppose e.g. that one does this:

name = 'attribute'
x.name

How would the interpreter know whether you're asking for getattr(x, 
name) or getattr(x, 'name')?


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 15:35:14 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 12:35:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:06:44 AM UTC+1, Tim Chase wrote:
>
> I think random832 is saying that the designed purpose of setattr()
> was to dynamically set attributes by name, so they could later be
> accessed the traditional way; not designed from the ground-up to
> support non-identifier names.  But because of the getattr/setattr
> machinery (dict key/value pairs), it doesn't prevent you from having
> non-identifiers as names as long as you use only the getattr/setattr
> method of accessing them.

Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these "non-standard" names (which is a good thing) then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with "standard" names there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access these "non-standard" named attributes, too.

Regards,
Piotr


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 15:46:26 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:46:26 +0000
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7o4ar$4b1$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 20:35, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:06:44 AM UTC+1, Tim Chase wrote:
>>
>> I think random832 is saying that the designed purpose of setattr()
>> was to dynamically set attributes by name, so they could later be
>> accessed the traditional way; not designed from the ground-up to
>> support non-identifier names.  But because of the getattr/setattr
>> machinery (dict key/value pairs), it doesn't prevent you from having
>> non-identifiers as names as long as you use only the getattr/setattr
>> method of accessing them.
>
> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these "non-standard" names (which is a good thing) then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with "standard" names there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access these "non-standard" named attributes, too.
>
> Regards,
> Piotr
>

The obvious thing to do is to either raise this on python ideas, or if 
you're that confident about it raise an issue on the bug tracker with a 
patch, which would include changes to unit tests and documentation as 
well as code, get it reviewed and approved and Bob's your uncle, job 
done.  Too late for Python 3.4 of course, but no problem for 3.5.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec  4 21:58:23 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 21:58:23 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <l7o4ar$4b1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <l7o4ar$4b1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7oq46$dpg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/2013 3:46 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 20:35, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:06:44 AM UTC+1, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>
>>> I think random832 is saying that the designed purpose of setattr()
>>> was to dynamically set attributes by name, so they could later be
>>> accessed the traditional way; not designed from the ground-up to
>>> support non-identifier names.  But because of the getattr/setattr
>>> machinery (dict key/value pairs), it doesn't prevent you from having
>>> non-identifiers as names as long as you use only the getattr/setattr
>>> method of accessing them.
>>
>> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these
>> "non-standard" names

Fact.

>> (which is a good thing)

Opinion, not universally shared by developers, or 'good thing only as 
long as kept obscure'.

 >> then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with "standard" names

In a later post (after you wrote this) I explained that standard names 
are not always accessed with a dot, and that uniformity is impossible.

 >> there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access
 >> these "non-standard" named attributes, too.

More opinion. I am sure that I am not the only developer who disagrees.

> The obvious thing to do is to either raise this on python ideas, or if
> you're that confident about it raise an issue on the bug tracker with a
> patch, which would include changes to unit tests and documentation as
> well as code, get it reviewed and approved and Bob's your uncle, job
> done.

I think the latter would be foolish. Syntax changes have a high bar for 
acceptance. They should do more than save a few keystrokes. Use of new 
syntax makes code backward incompatible. New or changed Python modules 
can be backported (as long as they do not use new syntax ;-) either 
privately or publicly (on PyPI).

3.2 had no syntax changes; 3.3 one that I know of ('yield from'), which 
replaced about 15-20 *lines* of very tricky code;  3.4 has none that I 
can remember.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 22:05:14 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 19:05:14 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <l7oq46$dpg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <l7o4ar$4b1$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7oq46$dpg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <529FED6A.6050706@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 06:58 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/4/2013 3:46 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 04/12/2013 20:35, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>>>
>>> there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access
>>> these "non-standard" named attributes, too.
>
> More opinion. I am sure that I am not the only developer who disagrees.

+1


>> The obvious thing to do is to either raise this on python ideas, or if
>> you're that confident about it raise an issue on the bug tracker with a
>> patch, which would include changes to unit tests and documentation as
>> well as code, get it reviewed and approved and Bob's your uncle, job
>> done.
>
> I think the latter would be foolish. Syntax changes have a high bar for acceptance. They should do more than save a few
> keystrokes.

+1

--
~Ethan~


From malaclypse2 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 15:58:21 2013
From: malaclypse2 at gmail.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 15:58:21 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CADwdpyZbsCQrtEX8eLHQxY4TR5fEj44NcWRBTviB6SerG-gJcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Piotr Dobrogost
<p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these "non-standard" names (which is a good thing) then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with "standard" names there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access these "non-standard" named attributes, too.

Given the follow code, what do you think should print?

class My_Class(object):
    pass

bar = 1
my_object = My_Class()
setattr(my_object, 'foo', 10)
setattr(my_object, 'bar', 100)
setattr(my_object, 'foo-bar', 1000)

print(my_object.foo-bar)

Today (in python 3.3), it prints 9, because my_object.foo is 10, the
local variable bar is equal to 1, and 10 minus 1 is 9..  Under your
new proposal, it would print 1000, right?  Is there any way for your
proposal to be backwards compatible?

-- 
Jerry


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 16:02:45 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:02:45 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <CADwdpyZbsCQrtEX8eLHQxY4TR5fEj44NcWRBTviB6SerG-gJcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <CADwdpyZbsCQrtEX8eLHQxY4TR5fEj44NcWRBTviB6SerG-gJcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <529F9875.8020408@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 12:58 PM, Jerry Hill wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Piotr Dobrogost
> <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
>> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these "non-standard" names (which is a good thing) then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with "standard" names there should be a variant of dot access allowing to access these "non-standard" named attributes, too.
>
> Given the follow code, what do you think should print?
>
> class My_Class(object):
>      pass
>
> bar = 1
> my_object = My_Class()
> setattr(my_object, 'foo', 10)
> setattr(my_object, 'bar', 100)
> setattr(my_object, 'foo-bar', 1000)
>
> print(my_object.foo-bar)

Actually, under his proposal it would be:

   print(my_object."foo-bar")

and it would print 1000, while yours would still print 9.

--
~Ethan~


From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Dec  4 16:41:49 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 21:41:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7o7it$bcn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-04, Piotr Dobrogost <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 2:06:44 AM UTC+1, Tim Chase wrote:
>>
>> I think random832 is saying that the designed purpose of setattr()
>> was to dynamically set attributes by name, so they could later be
>> accessed the traditional way; not designed from the ground-up to
>> support non-identifier names.  But because of the getattr/setattr
>> machinery (dict key/value pairs), it doesn't prevent you from having
>> non-identifiers as names as long as you use only the getattr/setattr
>> method of accessing them.
>
> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these
> "non-standard" names (which is a good thing)

At best its a neutral thing. You can use dict for the same
purpose with very little effort and no(?) loss of efficiency.

> then for uniformity with dot access to attributes with
> "standard" names there should be a variant of dot access
> allowing to access these "non-standard" named attributes, too.

New syntax needs more than theoretical justifications; it needs
persuasive use cases.

Using invalid identifiers as attributes is generally a bad idea,
not something to do commonly. Your proposed syntax leaves the
distinction between valid and invalid identifiers a problem the
programmer has to deal with. It doesn't unify access to
attributes the way the getattr and setattr do.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 16:54:00 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 13:54:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e106efd6-a604-4ccc-b225-a9a566d43a26@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:41:49 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>
> not something to do commonly. Your proposed syntax leaves the
> distinction between valid and invalid identifiers a problem the
> programmer has to deal with. It doesn't unify access to
> attributes the way the getattr and setattr do.

Taking into account that obj.'x' would be equivalent to obj.x any attribute can be accessed with the new syntax. I don't see how this is not unified access compared to using getattr instead dot...

Regards,
Piotr


From neilc at norwich.edu  Fri Dec  6 09:07:51 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 14:07:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e106efd6-a604-4ccc-b225-a9a566d43a26@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7slnm$s5d$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-04, Piotr Dobrogost
<p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:41:49 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti
> wrote:
>> not something to do commonly. Your proposed syntax leaves the
>> distinction between valid and invalid identifiers a problem
>> the programmer has to deal with. It doesn't unify access to
>> attributes the way the getattr and setattr do.
>
> Taking into account that obj.'x' would be equivalent to obj.x
> any attribute can be accessed with the new syntax. I don't see
> how this is not unified access compared to using getattr
> instead dot...

I thought of that argument later the next day. Your proposal does
unify access if the old obj.x syntax is removed.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Fri Dec  6 11:51:20 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:51:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3650.1386338903.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e106efd6-a604-4ccc-b225-a9a566d43a26@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3650.1386338903.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <07ce304a-644b-4e90-8c7d-5d1dcc28ed81@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 3:07:51 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-04, Piotr Dobrogost
> 
> <p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:41:49 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti
> > wrote:
> 
> >> not something to do commonly. Your proposed syntax leaves the
> >> distinction between valid and invalid identifiers a problem
> >> the programmer has to deal with. It doesn't unify access to
> 
> >> attributes the way the getattr and setattr do.
> 
> >
> 
> > Taking into account that obj.'x' would be equivalent to obj.x
> > any attribute can be accessed with the new syntax. I don't see
> > how this is not unified access compared to using getattr
> > instead dot...
> 
> I thought of that argument later the next day. Your proposal does
> unify access if the old obj.x syntax is removed.

As long as obj.x is a very concise way to get attribute named 'x' from object obj it's somehow odd that identifier x is treated not like identifier but like string literal 'x'. If it were treated like an identifier then we would get attribute with name being value of x instead attribute named 'x'. Making it possible to use string literals in the form obj.'x' as proposed this would make getattr basically needless as long as we use only variable not expression to denote attribute's name.
This is just casual remark.


Regards,
Piotr


From sg552 at hotmail.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 19:47:06 2013
From: sg552 at hotmail.co.uk (Rotwang)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 00:47:06 +0000
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <07ce304a-644b-4e90-8c7d-5d1dcc28ed81@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e106efd6-a604-4ccc-b225-a9a566d43a26@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3650.1386338903.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <07ce304a-644b-4e90-8c7d-5d1dcc28ed81@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7tr6b$856$1@dont-email.me>

On 06/12/2013 16:51, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> I thought of that argument later the next day. Your proposal does
>> unify access if the old obj.x syntax is removed.
>
> As long as obj.x is a very concise way to get attribute named 'x' from
> object obj it's somehow odd that identifier x is treated not like
> identifier but like string literal 'x'. If it were treated like an
> identifier then we would get attribute with name being value of x
> instead attribute named 'x'. Making it possible to use string literals
> in the form obj.'x' as proposed this would make getattr basically
> needless as long as we use only variable not expression to denote
> attribute's name.

But then every time you wanted to get an attribute with a name known at 
compile time you'd need to write obj.'x' instead of obj.x, thereby 
requiring two additional keystrokes. Given that the large majority of 
attribute access Python code uses dot syntax rather than getattr, this 
seems like it would massively outweigh the eleven keystrokes one saves 
by writing obj.'x' instead of getattr(obj,'x').



From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 17:13:12 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:13:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:41:49 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-04, Piotr Dobrogost <> wrote:
> 
> > Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these
> > "non-standard" names (which is a good thing)
> 
> At best its a neutral thing. You can use dict for the same
> purpose with very little effort and no(?) loss of efficiency.

As much as many people in this topic would like to put equal sign between attributes and dictionary's keys they are not the same thing. AFAIK descriptor protocol works only with attributes, right?

Regards,
Piotr


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 18:09:52 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 15:09:52 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529FB640.6000005@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 02:13 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:41:49 PM UTC+1, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> On 2013-12-04, Piotr Dobrogost <> wrote:
>>
>>> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these
>>> "non-standard" names (which is a good thing)
>>
>> At best its a neutral thing. You can use dict for the same
>> purpose with very little effort and no(?) loss of efficiency.
>
> As much as many people in this topic would like to put equal
>  sign between attributes and dictionary's keys they are not the
>  same thing. AFAIK descriptor protocol works only with attributes,
>  right?

Correct.  It is looking very unlikely that you are going to get enough support for this change.  Perhaps you should look 
at different ways of spelling your identifiers?  Why can't you use an underscore instead of a hyphen?

--
~Ethan~


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 18:57:04 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 15:57:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3593.1386199893.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3593.1386199893.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5d99a76c-35eb-4c1d-bdb5-e4e1f6bea188@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:09:52 AM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
> Perhaps you should look 
> at different ways of spelling your identifiers?  Why can't you use an
> underscore instead of a hyphen?

So that underscore could be left for use inside fields' names?
However I think we could use some unique Unicode character for this instead hyphen as long as Python allows any alphanumeric Unicode character inside identifiers which I think it does...

Regards,
Piotr


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec  4 19:26:20 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:26:20 -0800
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <5d99a76c-35eb-4c1d-bdb5-e4e1f6bea188@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3593.1386199893.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5d99a76c-35eb-4c1d-bdb5-e4e1f6bea188@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529FC82C.7020201@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/04/2013 03:57 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:09:52 AM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps you should look at different ways of spelling your identifiers?
>>  Why can't you use an underscore instead of a hyphen?
>
> So that underscore could be left for use inside fields' names?
> However I think we could use some unique Unicode character for this
>  instead hyphen as long as Python allows any alphanumeric Unicode
>  character inside identifiers which I think it does...

Yes, although I don't remember at which version that became true...

--
~Ethan~


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec  4 20:17:45 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 20:17:45 -0500
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <5d99a76c-35eb-4c1d-bdb5-e4e1f6bea188@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3588.1386193334.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3a27ef53-64b7-4cf3-9879-8452fab458a1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3593.1386199893.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5d99a76c-35eb-4c1d-bdb5-e4e1f6bea188@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7ok7e$idl$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/13 6:57 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:09:52 AM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> Perhaps you should look
>> at different ways of spelling your identifiers?  Why can't you use an
>> underscore instead of a hyphen?
>
> So that underscore could be left for use inside fields' names?
> However I think we could use some unique Unicode character for this instead hyphen as long as Python allows any alphanumeric Unicode character inside identifiers which I think it does...
>
> Regards,
> Piotr
>

You object to typing [''] but you don't mind typing an unusual Unicode 
character?

--Ned.



From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Dec  5 02:56:18 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 05 Dec 2013 07:56:18 GMT
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3527.1386093834.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <eb15e1a8-49b1-4d55-a864-141efc65394e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3543.1386119133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d13e811f-f496-418a-b737-f4fbf1286cc5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a031a1$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:35:14 -0800, Piotr Dobrogost wrote:


> Right. If there's already a way to have attributes with these
> "non-standard" names (which is a good thing)

No it is not a good thing. It is a bad thing, and completely an accident 
of implementation that it works at all.

Python does not support names (variable names, method names, attribute 
names, module names etc.) which are not valid identifiers except by 
accident. The right way to handle non-identifier names is to use keys in 
a dictionary, which works for any legal string.

As you correctly say in another post:

"attribute is quite a different beast then key in a dictionary"

attributes are intended to be variables, not arbitrary keys. In some 
languages, they are even called "instance variables". As they are 
variables, they should be legal identifiers:

spam = 42  # legal identifier name
spam\n-ham\n = 42  # illegal identifier name


Sticking a dot in front of the name doesn't make it any different. 
Variables, and attributes, should be legal identifiers. If I remember 
correctly (and I may not), this issue has been raised with the Python-Dev 
core developers, including Guido, and their decision was:

- allowing non-identifier attribute names is an accident of 
implementation; 

- Python implementations are allowed to optimize __dict__ to prohibit non-
valid identifiers;

- but it's probably not worth doing in CPython.

getattr already enforces that the attribute name is a string rather than 
any arbitrary object.

You've also raised the issue of linking attribute names to descriptors. 
Descriptors is certainly a good reason to use attributes, but it's not a 
good reason for allowing non-identifier names. Instead of writing:

obj.'#$^%\n-\'."'

just use a legal identifier name! The above is an extreme example, but 
the principle applies to less extreme examples. It might be slightly 
annoying to write obj.foo_bar when you actually want of obj.'foo.bar' or 
obj.'foo\nbar' or some other variation, but frankly, that's just too bad 
for you.

As far as descriptors go, you can implement descriptor-like functionality 
by overriding __getitem__. Here's a basic example:

class MyDict(dict):
    def __getitem__(self, key):
        obj = super(MyDict, self).__getitem__(key)
        if hasattr(obj, '__get__'):
            obj = obj.__get__(self)


which ought to be close to (but not identical) to the semantics of 
attribute descriptors.

While I can see that there is some benefit to allowing non-identifier 
attributes, I believe such benefit is very small, and not enough to 
justify the cost by allowing non-identifier attributes. If I wanted to 
program in a language where #$^%\n-\'." was a legal name for a variable, 
I'd program in Forth.


-- 
Steven


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Tue Dec  3 18:49:29 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 15:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3525.1386093172.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3525.1386093172.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0c86f511-9f41-4758-b9f4-5306402ff50f@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:31:58 PM UTC+1, Ethan Furman wrote:
> 
> When would you have attribute names that are not valid identifiers?
> 
See my answer to rand's post.


From p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net  Wed Dec  4 17:05:11 2013
From: p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net (Piotr Dobrogost)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:05:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is there no natural syntax for accessing attributes with
 names not being valid identifiers?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3524.1386092873.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3524.1386092873.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a788544a-e2c6-4a93-a9c4-a5c004eeae54@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 6:48:38 PM UTC+1, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Dec 2013 09:14:49 -0800 (PST), Piotr Dobrogost 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > What is the reason there's no "natural" syntax allowing to access 
> > attributes with names not being valid Python identifiers in a similar 
> > way to other attributes?
> 
> There is.  Just use a dictionary.

Object's attributes and dictionary's keys are quite different things. What about descriptors?

Regards,
Piotr


From davea at davea.name  Wed Dec  4 17:28:02 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 17:28:02 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Why_is_there_no_natural_syntax_for_accessing_a?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ttributes_with=0A_names_not_being_valid_identifiers=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <a788544a-e2c6-4a93-a9c4-a5c004eeae54@googlegroups.com>
References: <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <15912943-29a1-4365-b027-7bb8cec447f8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3524.1386092873.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a788544a-e2c6-4a93-a9c4-a5c004eeae54@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.4114086149685354325@news.gmane.org>

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 14:05:11 -0800 (PST), Piotr Dobrogost 
<p at google-groups-2013.dobrogost.net> wrote:
> Object's attributes and dictionary's keys are quite different 
things.

Right. So if you need arbitrary keys, use a dict. Attributes are 
keyed by identifiers, which are constrained. No problem.

-- 
DaveA



From hpj at urpla.net  Tue Dec  3 17:32:25 2013
From: hpj at urpla.net (Hans-Peter Jansen)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2013 23:32:25 +0100
Subject: Python 2.7.5: Strange and differing behavior depending on
 sys.setdefaultencoding being set
Message-ID: <3323513.NxQf30XKqz@xrated>

Hi,

I'm experiencing strange behavior with attached code, that differs depending 
on sys.setdefaultencoding being set or not. If it is set, the code works as 
expected, if not - what should be the usual case - the code fails with some 
non-sensible traceback.

I tried to boil it down to a comprehensible state, but some LOC are still 
involved. I use similar code to represent database records, where the repr's 
appear in user visible logs for example.

It is greatly appreciated, if some kind soul could shed some light on this 
ungrateful behavior.

Thanks in advance,
Pete
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 18:20:31 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:20:31 +1100
Subject: Python 2.7.5: Strange and differing behavior depending on
 sys.setdefaultencoding being set
In-Reply-To: <3323513.NxQf30XKqz@xrated>
References: <3323513.NxQf30XKqz@xrated>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqp9FEnTsOwm9AZJ468yH696rXz-yCkaPcnSyaaR=cU3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj at urpla.net> wrote:
> I'm experiencing strange behavior with attached code, that differs depending
> on sys.setdefaultencoding being set or not. If it is set, the code works as
> expected, if not - what should be the usual case - the code fails with some
> non-sensible traceback.

Interesting. You're mixing str and unicode objects a lot here. The
cleanest solution, IMO, would be to either switch to Python 3 or add
this to the top of your code:

from __future__ import unicode_literals

Either way, you'll have all your quoted strings be Unicode, rather
than byte, strings. Then take away the requirement that Unicode
strings contain non-ASCII characters, and let everything go through
that code branch.

Looking at this line in reprstr():

s = "u'%s'" % s.replace("'", "\\'")

Two potential problems with that. Firstly, the representation is
flawed: a backslash in the input string won't be changed, so it's not
a true repr; but if this is just for debugging output, that's not a
big deal. Secondly, this code might produce either a str or a unicode,
depending on the type of s. That may cause messes later; since you
seem to be mostly working with the unicode type after that, it'd
probably be simpler/safer to make that always return one:

s = u"u'%s'" % s.replace("'", "\\'")

But the actual problem, I think, is that repr() guarantees to return a
str, and you're trying to return a unicode. Here's an illustration:

# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
class Foo(object):
    def __repr__(self):
        return u'???'

foo = Foo()
print(foo.__repr__())
print(repr(foo))

The first one succeeds, because building up that string isn't at all a
problem. The second one then tries to turn the return value of
__repr__ into a string using the default encoding - which defaults to
'ascii', hence the problem you're seeing.

Solution 1: Switch to Python 3, in which this will work fine (because
repr() in Py3 returns a Unicode string, since _everything_ is
Unicode).

Solution 2: Explicitly encode in frec, or at the end of Record.__repr__():

        def __repr__(self):
            s = u'%s(\n%s\n)' % (self.__class__.__name__, frec(self.__dict__))
            return s.encode("utf-8")

(that could be a one-liner, but it's already pushing 80-chars, so if
you have a length limit, breaking it helps)

Solution 3: Don't use __repr__ here, but simply have your frec
function intelligently handle Record types. Effectively, you have your
own method of generating a debug description of a Record, which could
then return a unicode instead of a str.

I personally recommend switching to Python 3 :) But presumably that's
not an option, or you'd already have considered it.

ChrisA


From hpj at urpla.net  Tue Dec  3 19:15:34 2013
From: hpj at urpla.net (Hans-Peter Jansen)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 01:15:34 +0100
Subject: Python 2.7.5: Strange and differing behavior depending on
 sys.setdefaultencoding being set
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqp9FEnTsOwm9AZJ468yH696rXz-yCkaPcnSyaaR=cU3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3323513.NxQf30XKqz@xrated>
 <CAPTjJmqp9FEnTsOwm9AZJ468yH696rXz-yCkaPcnSyaaR=cU3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3636037.ckptLqdZpk@xrated>

Hi Chris,

On Mittwoch, 4. Dezember 2013 10:20:31 Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj at urpla.net> wrote:
> > I'm experiencing strange behavior with attached code, that differs
> > depending on sys.setdefaultencoding being set or not. If it is set, the
> > code works as expected, if not - what should be the usual case - the code
> > fails with some non-sensible traceback.
> 
> Interesting. You're mixing str and unicode objects a lot here. The
> cleanest solution, IMO, would be to either switch to Python 3 or add
> this to the top of your code:
> 
> from __future__ import unicode_literals
> 
> Either way, you'll have all your quoted strings be Unicode, rather
> than byte, strings. Then take away the requirement that Unicode
> strings contain non-ASCII characters, and let everything go through
> that code branch.
> 
> Looking at this line in reprstr():
> 
> s = "u'%s'" % s.replace("'", "\\'")
> 
> Two potential problems with that. Firstly, the representation is
> flawed: a backslash in the input string won't be changed, so it's not
> a true repr; but if this is just for debugging output, that's not a
> big deal. Secondly, this code might produce either a str or a unicode,
> depending on the type of s. That may cause messes later; since you
> seem to be mostly working with the unicode type after that, it'd
> probably be simpler/safer to make that always return one:

The code serves three purposes: make simple strings more readable, document 
the others as being unicode, and display those correctly ;)

> s = u"u'%s'" % s.replace("'", "\\'")
> 
> But the actual problem, I think, is that repr() guarantees to return a
> str, and you're trying to return a unicode. Here's an illustration:
> 
> # -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
> class Foo(object):
>     def __repr__(self):
>         return u'???'
> 
> foo = Foo()
> print(foo.__repr__())
> print(repr(foo))
> 
> The first one succeeds, because building up that string isn't at all a
> problem. The second one then tries to turn the return value of
> __repr__ into a string using the default encoding - which defaults to
> 'ascii', hence the problem you're seeing.
> 
> Solution 1: Switch to Python 3, in which this will work fine (because
> repr() in Py3 returns a Unicode string, since _everything_ is
> Unicode).
> 
> Solution 2: Explicitly encode in frec, or at the end of Record.__repr__():
> 
>         def __repr__(self):
>             s = u'%s(\n%s\n)' % (self.__class__.__name__,
> frec(self.__dict__)) return s.encode("utf-8")
> 
> (that could be a one-liner, but it's already pushing 80-chars, so if
> you have a length limit, breaking it helps)
> 
> Solution 3: Don't use __repr__ here, but simply have your frec
> function intelligently handle Record types. Effectively, you have your
> own method of generating a debug description of a Record, which could
> then return a unicode instead of a str.

Thanks for all your considerations, they are very helpful indeed. Even more 
helpful, that I understand the issue in question now. I will take some rest 
and then decide, what to do about this with your precious help. 

> I personally recommend switching to Python 3 :) But presumably that's
> not an option, or you'd already have considered it.

You nailed it ;) 

Given the amount of special unicode handling code, that is necessary to keep 
Python 2 happy, makes proceeding with it no real fun on a longer term..

And the biggest proponent for hacking in Python IS the fun part of it. Then 
productivity, elegance, ..., you name it.

Have-a-good-day-ly y'rs,
Pete


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec  3 19:20:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:20:40 +1100
Subject: Python 2.7.5: Strange and differing behavior depending on
 sys.setdefaultencoding being set
In-Reply-To: <3636037.ckptLqdZpk@xrated>
References: <3323513.NxQf30XKqz@xrated>
 <CAPTjJmqp9FEnTsOwm9AZJ468yH696rXz-yCkaPcnSyaaR=cU3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <3636037.ckptLqdZpk@xrated>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpA1caRZTJCJ868UU-eJp30yzY5nOE=zNOYnbxzO5NmZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj at urpla.net> wrote:
> Given the amount of special unicode handling code, that is necessary to keep
> Python 2 happy, makes proceeding with it no real fun on a longer term..
>
> And the biggest proponent for hacking in Python IS the fun part of it. Then
> productivity, elegance, ..., you name it.

Yeah. I think Py2 is improved significantly by turning it as much as
possible into Py3 (which means, in this case, unicode_literals and
then basically working everywhere with Unicode), but of course, that
sometimes just moves the breakage - as you found here, with repr()
insisting on returning a str. The breakage created by Py3 is so worth
taking, it's just a matter of when you move.

ChrisA


From tristan at realss.com  Tue Dec  3 20:34:13 2013
From: tristan at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:34:13 +0800
Subject: any use case of logging.config.listen()?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312040913510.24501@lyonesse>

Why would anyone use it? I can't think of use cases when one need to change 
logging configuration dynamically through socket, but not needing the same 
flexibility on overall configuration for his application (configparser). It 
feels strange to design a socket interface only to expose logging 
configuration. If you use logging.config.listen, I very much wish to know 
what problem are you attacking.

I imagined this use case, and invite you to debate if it be valid. Thanks.

 	To design a GUI monitor of a daemon, like amule-gui (log-reading
 	monitor for amule) or pureadmin (log-reading monitor for pureftp).
 	Here is how:

 	1. The user starts the monitor on his PC. It socket-coneect the
 	daemon written in python - perhaps wrapped by SSH protection - and
 	send a new config file that adds SocketHandler with his own IP
 	address and port.

 	2. The daemon starts to emit log to TCP socket, the user watches his
 	monitor.

 	3. When the user finishes, the GUI monitor sends a new config file
 	to remove the handler (is it possible with current API?)  Or, the
 	user drops out, the server finds socket dead and removes the
 	SocketHandler on its own.

 	It works like FTP's PORT command, asking server to establish
 	connection back to the client. Unfortunately this technology doesn't
 	work nowadays when most PCs are behind NAT firewall.

It begets the question, that if it is easier to write a socket-listening 
loging handler and forget all about logging.config.listen() stuff. I never 
did it before, hence the question.


From dan at tombstonezero.net  Tue Dec  3 22:05:38 2013
From: dan at tombstonezero.net (Dan Sommers)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 03:05:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: any use case of logging.config.listen()?
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312040913510.24501@lyonesse>
Message-ID: <l7m661$ctf$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:34:13 +0800, Zhang Weiwu wrote:

> Why would anyone use [logging.config.listen()]? I can't think of use
> cases when one need to change logging configuration dynamically
> through socket, but not needing the same flexibility on overall
> configuration for his application (configparser). It feels strange to
> design a socket interface only to expose logging configuration. If you
> use logging.config.listen, I very much wish to know what problem are
> you attacking.

Consider a long-running process that listens for input (HTTP, CLI, GUI,
or something else; it doesn't matter), does some processing, and
produces output.  A web server is an example of such a process.

Now consider the case that something is wrong with the process, but
you're not sure what.  So you use logging.config.listen to raise the
logging level so that you can see more logging from your process without
disturbing it in any way.

Or suppose you want to deploy a new plug-in to the process, and
temporarily turn "up" the logging to watch the new plug-in emit some
debugging-level messages as it starts up.  When the new plug-in is
finished, you can turn "down" the logging level.  With
logging.config.listen(), you can do all of this without stopping and
restarting the process.

> I imagined this use case, and invite you to debate if it be
> valid. Thanks.

I think your use case is equivalent to the ones I described.  Therefore,
it is valid.  ;-)

> It begets the question, that if it is easier to write a
> socket-listening loging handler and forget all about
> logging.config.listen() stuff. I never did it before, hence the
> question.

But why develop all of that code when logging.config.listen() already
exists?  Adding a new SocketHandler seems more heavyweight (and more
risky) than adjusting the logging level on an existing SocketHandler.

HTH,
Dan


From tristan at realss.com  Wed Dec  4 04:09:22 2013
From: tristan at realss.com (Zhang Weiwu)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 17:09:22 +0800
Subject: any use case of logging.config.listen()?
In-Reply-To: <l7m661$ctf$1@dont-email.me>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312040913510.24501@lyonesse>
 <l7m661$ctf$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312041657450.31882@lyonesse>

Thank you a lot for your case description.

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Dan Sommers wrote:

>> It begets the question, that if it is easier to write a
>> socket-listening loging handler and forget all about
>> logging.config.listen() stuff. I never did it before, hence the
>> question.
>
> But why develop all of that code when logging.config.listen() already
> exists?  Adding a new SocketHandler seems more heavyweight (and more
> risky) than adjusting the logging level on an existing SocketHandler.

There are 2 reasons that i cannot just use existing API for the project I am 
working on.

1. My monitoring GUI client is often behind various NAT. In fact it is a 
hand-held client, I could be using it in a caf?'s WIFI. It is impossible to 
tell the python-daemon to just send the log to given address and port.

2. I forgot to explain that in my project adjusting log level is only half 
of what needs to be done. The monitoring GUI client also needs to be able to 
send a few operational parameters' change. e.g. I need to see the log, and 
decide to change 'Threshold' from 0.5 to 0.53 and see the difference.

For the first problem, a new logging.ListeningSocketHandler would work - 
don't know if it is easy to write one - which can be written in a way that 
simply drops logs if no one is listening, thus forgoing logging.config.listen().

For the second problem, a way to dynamically accept new operational 
paramters from socket is needed, solo logging.config.listen() wouldn't 
suffice.

Either case I don't find use of logging.config.listen(), even though I am 
looking hard for every way to reuse existing code.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 05:53:49 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 21:53:49 +1100
Subject: any use case of logging.config.listen()?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312041657450.31882@lyonesse>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312040913510.24501@lyonesse>
 <l7m661$ctf$1@dont-email.me>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1312041657450.31882@lyonesse>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqZm+_LX=vNjkmeGpW5pGhhd-irVM5ujHMquY1x8mgYCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Zhang Weiwu <tristan at realss.com> wrote:
> Either case I don't find use of logging.config.listen(), even though I am
> looking hard for every way to reuse existing code.
>

That's not a problem. It's a feature that doesn't quite fit your task,
so you don't use it. It's like trying to install an operating system
on a new computer and deciding that emacs isn't the one for you.
*dives for cover*

ChrisA


From frank at chagford.com  Wed Dec  4 04:16:40 2013
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 11:16:40 +0200
Subject: A cautionary tale
Message-ID: <l7mrt7$cme$1@ger.gmane.org>

Hi all

There is no question at the end of this, it is just an account of a couple 
of days in the life of a programmer (me). I just felt like sharing it. Feel 
free to ignore.

The business/accounting system I am writing involves a lot of reading data 
from a database, and if changed, writing it back again.

There are a number of data types involved - string, integer, decimal, 
boolean, date, datetime. I currently support PostgreSQL, MS SQL Server, and 
sqlite3. In all cases, they have a DB-API 2.0-compliant adaptor which 
handles the conversion to and from python objects transparently.

Over the last year or so I have added two new types. I added a JSON type, to 
handle 'lists' and 'dicts', and an XML type to handle more complex 
structures. In both cases they are stored in the database as strings, so I 
have to handle the conversions myself.

I don't allow direct access to the objects, as they can be affected by 
various business rules, so I use getters and setters. For the new types, I 
used the getter to convert from the string to the underlying object, and the 
setter to convert it back to a string.

Then a couple of days ago I decided that this was not the correct place to 
do it - it should be done when reading from and writing to the database. 
That way the data is always represented by the underlying object, which can 
be passed around without worrying about conversions.

It was a bit of effort, as I had to add extra getters and setters to handle 
the transfer between the database and the program, and then over-ride them 
in the case of the new data types to provide the required functionality. But 
after a few hours of hunting down all the places that required changes, 
testing, fixing errors, etc, it seemed to be working fine, so I thought I 
could carry on with the meat of my program.

Then I noticed that certain changes were not being written back to the 
database. After some investigation, I found the error in a part of my 
program that I have not had to look at for ages. When reading data in from 
the database, I preserve a copy of the original value. When saving, I 
compare that to the current value when deciding which columns need updating. 
I do this in the obvious way -

    on reading -
        orig_value = value

    on saving -
       if value != orig_value:
            this one needs updating

Have you spotted the deliberate mistake yet? In the case of a JSON list, 
orig_value and value point to the same, mutable, list. So when I compare 
value with orig_value, they are always the same, whether changes have been 
made or not!

The obvious answer is to store a copy of the list. It was not so obvious 
where to make the change, as there were other implications. Eventually I 
decided to over-ride the 'getter' for the JSON type, and return copy(value) 
instead of value. That way if it is changed and then put back using the 
'setter', the two objects are no longer equal. I have made that change, done 
some more testing, and for now it seems ok.

So have the last couple of days been a waste of time? I don't think so. Is 
the program a bit cleaner and conceptually sounder? I hope so.

Why am I telling you all this? No particular reason, just thought some of 
you might find it interesting.

Frank Millman





From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec  4 05:08:23 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:08:23 +0100
Subject: A cautionary tale
References: <l7mrt7$cme$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7muu4$gd1$1@ger.gmane.org>

Frank Millman wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> There is no question at the end of this, it is just an account of a couple
> of days in the life of a programmer (me). I just felt like sharing it.
> Feel free to ignore.
> 
> The business/accounting system I am writing involves a lot of reading data
> from a database, and if changed, writing it back again.
> 
> There are a number of data types involved - string, integer, decimal,
> boolean, date, datetime. I currently support PostgreSQL, MS SQL Server,
> and sqlite3. In all cases, they have a DB-API 2.0-compliant adaptor which
> handles the conversion to and from python objects transparently.
> 
> Over the last year or so I have added two new types. I added a JSON type,
> to handle 'lists' and 'dicts', and an XML type to handle more complex
> structures. In both cases they are stored in the database as strings, so I
> have to handle the conversions myself.
> 
> I don't allow direct access to the objects, as they can be affected by
> various business rules, so I use getters and setters. For the new types, I
> used the getter to convert from the string to the underlying object, and
> the setter to convert it back to a string.
> 
> Then a couple of days ago I decided that this was not the correct place to
> do it - it should be done when reading from and writing to the database.
> That way the data is always represented by the underlying object, which
> can be passed around without worrying about conversions.
> 
> It was a bit of effort, as I had to add extra getters and setters to
> handle the transfer between the database and the program, and then
> over-ride them in the case of the new data types to provide the required
> functionality. But after a few hours of hunting down all the places that
> required changes, testing, fixing errors, etc, it seemed to be working
> fine, so I thought I could carry on with the meat of my program.
> 
> Then I noticed that certain changes were not being written back to the
> database. After some investigation, I found the error in a part of my
> program that I have not had to look at for ages. When reading data in from
> the database, I preserve a copy of the original value. When saving, I
> compare that to the current value when deciding which columns need
> updating. I do this in the obvious way -
> 
>     on reading -
>         orig_value = value
> 
>     on saving -
>        if value != orig_value:
>             this one needs updating
> 
> Have you spotted the deliberate mistake yet? In the case of a JSON list,
> orig_value and value point to the same, mutable, list. So when I compare
> value with orig_value, they are always the same, whether changes have been
> made or not!
> 
> The obvious answer is to store a copy of the list. It was not so obvious
> where to make the change, as there were other implications. Eventually I
> decided to over-ride the 'getter' for the JSON type, and return
> copy(value) instead of value. That way if it is changed and then put back
> using the 'setter', the two objects are no longer equal. I have made that
> change, done some more testing, and for now it seems ok.
> 
> So have the last couple of days been a waste of time? I don't think so. Is
> the program a bit cleaner and conceptually sounder? I hope so.
> 
> Why am I telling you all this? No particular reason, just thought some of
> you might find it interesting.

You might like to know how others cope with basically the same problem:

http://docs.python.org/dev/library/shelve.html#example
http://www.zodb.org/en/latest/documentation/tutorial.html#persistent-objects




From steve at pearwood.info  Thu Dec  5 03:06:13 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 05 Dec 2013 08:06:13 GMT
Subject: A cautionary tale
References: <mailman.3548.1386148611.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a033f5$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:16:40 +0200, Frank Millman wrote:

[...]
> Then I noticed that certain changes were not being written back to the
> database. After some investigation, I found the error in a part of my
> program that I have not had to look at for ages. When reading data in
> from the database, I preserve a copy of the original value. When saving,
> I compare that to the current value when deciding which columns need
> updating. I do this in the obvious way -
> 
>     on reading -
>         orig_value = value

As you know, that is not the obvious way to create a copy. That binds a 
new name to the same value. To create a copy, you need:

orig_value = copy.copy(value)

or for lists:

orig_value = value[:]

I think we've all made the same mistake you have, it's an easy mistake to 
make, but for an experienced Python code it should also be an easy 
mistake to identify. Mind you, tracking it down might take a while...


>     on saving -
>        if value != orig_value:
>             this one needs updating
> 
> Have you spotted the deliberate mistake yet? In the case of a JSON list,
> orig_value and value point to the same, mutable, list. So when I compare
> value with orig_value, they are always the same, whether changes have
> been made or not!
> 
> The obvious answer is to store a copy of the list. It was not so obvious
> where to make the change, as there were other implications. Eventually I
> decided to over-ride the 'getter' for the JSON type, and return
> copy(value) instead of value. That way if it is changed and then put
> back using the 'setter', the two objects are no longer equal. I have
> made that change, done some more testing, and for now it seems ok.

I wouldn't do it that way. To my mind, the most obvious way of handling 
this is to add a "changed" flag to the object, and ensure that any 
modifications set the flag.

Of course, that may end up being more work than the way you've done it, 
but it will save making potentially many copies of objects which don't 
need to be copied.


> So have the last couple of days been a waste of time? I don't think so.
> Is the program a bit cleaner and conceptually sounder? I hope so.
> 
> Why am I telling you all this? No particular reason, just thought some
> of you might find it interesting.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us!



-- 
Steven


From frank at chagford.com  Thu Dec  5 03:57:28 2013
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 10:57:28 +0200
Subject: A cautionary tale
References: <mailman.3548.1386148611.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a033f5$0$11112$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l7pf54$ujh$1@ger.gmane.org>


"Steven D'Aprano" <steve at pearwood.info> wrote in message 
news:52a033f5$0$11112$c3e8da3 at news.astraweb.com...
> On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:16:40 +0200, Frank Millman wrote:
>
> [...]
>> Then I noticed that certain changes were not being written back to the
>> database. After some investigation, I found the error in a part of my
>> program that I have not had to look at for ages. When reading data in
>> from the database, I preserve a copy of the original value. When saving,
>> I compare that to the current value when deciding which columns need
>> updating. I do this in the obvious way -
>>
>>     on reading -
>>         orig_value = value
>
> As you know, that is not the obvious way to create a copy. That binds a
> new name to the same value. To create a copy, you need:
>
> orig_value = copy.copy(value)
>
> or for lists:
>
> orig_value = value[:]
>

True enough, but before I added my new data types, all the types I used were 
immutable, so I got away with it.

[...]

>
> I wouldn't do it that way. To my mind, the most obvious way of handling
> this is to add a "changed" flag to the object, and ensure that any
> modifications set the flag.
>
> Of course, that may end up being more work than the way you've done it,
> but it will save making potentially many copies of objects which don't
> need to be copied.
>
>

There are two (no, make that three) reasons why I need to preserve the 
original value -

1. A user can make changes to an object, and then before saving, select 
'cancel'. I then restore all values to their originals.

2.  I keep an 'audit trail' of changes to data rows, showing before and 
after values.

3. I use a form of 'optimistic concurrency control' to guard against two 
users updating the same row at the same time, resulting in one set of 
changes being overwritten. The classic form adds a 'timestamp' column to the 
table, which is timestamped on every update. Prior to executing an update, 
the timestamp is re-read from the database, and if not the same as the 
original, the update is aborted. My variation is to compare only those 
columns which have been changed, so I compare the re-read values with the 
orig_values. The benefit is that an organisation could have one user 
maintaining, say, credit information, while another may be trying to change 
the same person's telephone number. With my approach, both will succeed even 
if executed simultaneously [1].

Frank

[1] Not literally simultaneously. All that is required is that one user 
selects the row, and then before updating it, someone else selects the same 
row.





From loic.espern at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 05:18:22 2013
From: loic.espern at gmail.com (loic.espern at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 02:18:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Print a text at a specific location on the page
Message-ID: <ea01a990-dcd4-44ea-af8f-a12045f83e83@googlegroups.com>

Hi all

This is my first post on this list :-)

I have a web-application (developped using a python framework). In this web-app, I would like to print certificates for some courses.

The principle :
The course teacher has a "default" certificates, with placeholders for the name, and the certification name. ("Congratulations _______ you successfully passed the ______ course")
He puts the certificate in his printer, and my app prints the name, and the certification on a specific location, to fill the placeholders.

I looked at ReportLab, and Pod. They seems powerfull to build complex reports, but I wonder if it exists a simpler solution just to print a text at a specific place on the page...

Thank you


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec  4 05:57:08 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 11:57:08 +0100
Subject: Print a text at a specific location on the page
References: <ea01a990-dcd4-44ea-af8f-a12045f83e83@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7n1ph$j6o$1@ger.gmane.org>

loic.espern at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi all
> 
> This is my first post on this list :-)
> 
> I have a web-application (developped using a python framework). In this
> web-app, I would like to print certificates for some courses.
> 
> The principle :
> The course teacher has a "default" certificates, with placeholders for the
> name, and the certification name. ("Congratulations _______ you
> successfully passed the ______ course") He puts the certificate in his
> printer, and my app prints the name, and the certification on a specific
> location, to fill the placeholders.
> 
> I looked at ReportLab, and Pod. They seems powerfull to build complex
> reports, but I wonder if it exists a simpler solution just to print a text
> at a specific place on the page...
> 
> Thank you

I have the following quick-and-dirty wrapper for cairographics lying around 
-- just added the demo.

#/usr/bin/env python3
import cairo
import math

from contextlib import contextmanager

A4 = 595, 842

_mm = 72/25.4

def mm(x):
    """Convert mm to cairo-native (point)"""
    return x * _mm

class Context(object):
    """Wrapper for a cairo context object.

    Methods it doesn't provide are delegated to the cairo.Context instance.
    """
    def __init__(self, width, height, context):
        self.width = width
        self.height = height
        self.context = context
    def __getattr__(self, name):
        """Unknown attribute, delegate to cairo context
        """
        return getattr(self.context, name)
    @contextmanager
    def fontsize(self, size):
        """Set fontsize temporarily to something other than 12pt"""
        self.context.set_font_size(size)
        yield
        self.context.set_font_size(12)
    def line(self, start_x, start_y, end_x, end_y):
        """Draw a line from (start_x, start_y) to (end_x, end_y)"""
        self.context.move_to(start_x, start_y)
        self.context.line_to(end_x, end_y)
    def text_at(self, left, top, text):
        """Draw `text` at position (left, top)"""
        self.context.move_to(left, top)
        self.context.text_path(text)

def setup_context(
    filename, size, landscape,
    font="Times New Roman",
    slant=cairo.FONT_SLANT_NORMAL):
    """Create a cairo drawing context suitable for
    printing in landscape format.
    """
    width, height = size

    # http://cairographics.org/documentation/using_the_postscript_surface/
    # recommends the following for printing in landscape
    #
    # the "natural" approach (swapping width and height directly without
    # dsc_comment, translate, rotate, looked OK in Okular resulted in 
misplaced
    # (large left/top offset, bottom right corner clipped) output in print
    surface = cairo.PSSurface(filename, width, height)
    if landscape:
        surface.dsc_comment("%%PageOrientation: Landscape")
        context = cairo.Context(surface)
        context.translate(0, height)
        context.rotate(-math.pi/2)
        width, height = height, width
    else:
        context = cairo.Context(surface)

    context.select_font_face(
        font, slant, cairo.FONT_WEIGHT_NORMAL)
    context.set_font_size(12)
    context.set_line_width(.5)

    return Context(width, height, context)

if __name__ == "__main__":
    def demo():
        context = setup_context("tmp.ps", A4, landscape=False, font="Times")
        with context.fontsize(18):
            context.text_at(mm(20), mm(100), "Max Mustermann")
            context.text_at(mm(120), mm(100), "Brewing")
        context.fill()
    demo()

If that's too dirty for you consider using cairographics directly...



From robin at reportlab.com  Wed Dec  4 08:42:44 2013
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 13:42:44 +0000
Subject: simple ElementTree based parser that allows entity definition map
Message-ID: <529F3154.2020709@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

I'm tasked with writing  a 'simple' ElementTree based parser with support for 
unknown entities eg &foo;.

This code derived from FL's old documentation fails in both python 2 and 3.
########################
import xml.etree.ElementTree as ET
try:
     ascii
except:
     from future_builtins import ascii

class EchoTarget:
     def start(self, tag, attrib):
         print("start %s %s"%(tag, ascii(attrib)))
     def end(self, tag):
         print("end %s"%tag)
     def data(self, data):
         print("data %s" % ascii(data))
     def close(self):
         print("close")

     def __getattr__(self,a):
         print('target attempting to get attribute %s' % a)

target = EchoTarget()
parser = ET.XMLParser(target=target)
parser.entity['foo'] = b'AAAA&fum;BBBB'
parser.entity['fum'] = b'CCCC'
print("parser.entity=%s" % ascii(parser.entity))
parser.feed("<element>some text &foo;</element>")
parser.feed("")
parser.close()
########################

The entity value doesn't seem to get referenced.



I tried this derived from
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7237466/python-elementtree-support-for-parsing-unknown-xml-entities

########################
__all__=tuple(filter(None,'''
         Xml2TT
         EntityMap
         '''.split()))
import xml.etree.ElementTree as ET
try:
     from StringIO import StringIO
except ImportError:
     from io import StringIO

class EntityMap(dict):
     def __getitem__(self,key):
         try:
             r = dict.__getitem__(self,key)
         except:
             r = '&amp;' + key +';'
         return r

class Xml2TT:
     '''
     create a callable object that can turns xml into a tupletree
     if mutable is set to True then it's really a list tree
     '''
     def __init__(self,mutable=False,entityMap=None):
         self._mutable = mutable
         self._parser = parser = ET.XMLParser()
         parser.parser.UseForeignDTD(True)
         parser.entity = self._entityMap = entityMap

     def __call__(self,xml):
         r = self._mtt(ET.ElementTree().parse(StringIO(xml.strip()), 
parser=self._parser))
         return r[0]

     def _mtt(self,node):
         t = [node.text] if node.text else []
         e = t.extend
         for c in node:
             e(self._mtt(c))
         t = (node.tag,node.attrib,t,None)
         if self._mutable:
             t = list(t)
         return [t,node.tail] if node.tail else [t]

if __name__=='__main__':
     print(repr(Xml2TT()('<a>aaaaa<b>bbbb<c ca="123"/>22</b></a>')))
     print(repr(Xml2TT()('<a>aaaaa=&amp;=bbbbb&lt; &gt;</a>')))
     print(repr(Xml2TT(entityMap=EntityMap({'mu': '&#x85;','foo': 
'AAA&fum;BBB','fum':'CCC'}))('<a>amp=&amp; moo=&moo; lt=&lt; gt=&gt; mu=&mu; 
foo=&foo;</a>')))
########################

and it sort of works in python2, fails in python3 with

AttributeError: 'xml.etree.ElementTree.XMLParser' object has no attribute
'parser'

Even in python 2 there's a subtle bug as the output is

('a', {}, ['aaaaa', ('b', {}, ['bbbb', ('c', {'ca': '123'}, [], None), '22'], 
None)], None)
('a', {}, ['aaaaa=&=bbbbb< >'], None)
('a', {}, [u'amp=& moo=&amp;moo; lt=< gt=> mu=&#x85; foo=AAA&fum;BBB'], None)

ie the result of the &foo; lookup is not re-parsed so &fum; is not translated.

Is there a way to get a simple ElementTree based parser that can do what I want? 
I have several hundred entities and the size of the DTD would probably be larger 
than 99% of the strings I need to parse. I think I can live with the 
non-reparsing of the map output, but can I get Python 3 to do the UseForeignDTD 
thing?
-- 
Robin Becker



From geezle86 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 10:38:09 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 07:38:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
Message-ID: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>

The source code:

for i in range(8):
   n = input()

When we run it, consider the numbers below is the user input,

1
2
3
4
5
6
(and so forth)

my question, can i make it in just a single line like,

1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)

Can I?


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec  4 10:55:43 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:55:43 -0600
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131204095543.3b4269d8@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-04 07:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> for i in range(8):
>    n = input()
> 
> When we run it, consider the numbers below is the user input,
> 
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> (and so forth)
> 
> my question, can i make it in just a single line like,
> 
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)

Not easily while processing the input one at a time.  You can,
however, read one line of input and then split it:

  s = input()
  bits = s.split()
  if len(bits) != 8:
    what_now("?")
  else:
    for bit in bits:
      do_something(bit)

You could make it a bit more robust with something like:

  answers = []
  while len(answers) < 8:
    s = input()
    answers.append(s.split())
  del answers[8:] # we only want 8, so throw away extras
  for answer in answers:
    do_something(answer)

which would at least ensure that you have 8 entries.

-tkc






From tim at thechases.com  Wed Dec  4 11:07:41 2013
From: tim at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2013 10:07:41 -0600
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible? [correction]
In-Reply-To: <20131204095543.3b4269d8@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <20131204095543.3b4269d8@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20131204100741.36d6f5af@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-04 09:55, Tim Chase wrote:
> You could make it a bit more robust with something like:
> 
>   answers = []
>   while len(answers) < 8:
>     s = input()
>     answers.append(s.split())

this should be

  answers.extend(s.split())

instead of .append()

That's what I get for coding in my inbox rather than copy/pasting
from tested Python code.

-tkc





From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:04:00 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:04:00 +0000
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7njp8$j0l$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 15:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> The source code:
>
> for i in range(8):
>     n = input()
>
> When we run it, consider the numbers below is the user input,
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> (and so forth)
>
> my question, can i make it in just a single line like,
>
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)
>
> Can I?
>

Yes you can get them on a single line, see the response from Tim Chase. 
  But just to be crystal clear, are you aware that you're getting string 
representations of numbers, and not the numbers themselves?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 11:14:18 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 03:14:18 +1100
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <l7njp8$j0l$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7njp8$j0l$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpPoMxZgbSg1K6g=xCRyzgtQ2NVfeXL9-eHNpCrqyvhfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 15:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> The source code:
>>
>> for i in range(8):
>>     n = input()
>
> Yes you can get them on a single line, see the response from Tim Chase.  But
> just to be crystal clear, are you aware that you're getting string
> representations of numbers, and not the numbers themselves?

Just to clarify, this is assuming that you're using Python 3. Geezle,
if you're using Python 2, you need to not use input() for anything -
use raw_input() instead, which will do what we're describing here.

I yearn for the day when nobody uses Python 2 any more so this doesn't
need to be asked.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:27:46 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:27:46 +0000
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpPoMxZgbSg1K6g=xCRyzgtQ2NVfeXL9-eHNpCrqyvhfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7njp8$j0l$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpPoMxZgbSg1K6g=xCRyzgtQ2NVfeXL9-eHNpCrqyvhfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7nl5q$622$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 16:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2013 15:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> The source code:
>>>
>>> for i in range(8):
>>>      n = input()
>>
>> Yes you can get them on a single line, see the response from Tim Chase.  But
>> just to be crystal clear, are you aware that you're getting string
>> representations of numbers, and not the numbers themselves?
>
> Just to clarify, this is assuming that you're using Python 3. Geezle,
> if you're using Python 2, you need to not use input() for anything -
> use raw_input() instead, which will do what we're describing here.

Good point, I saw input() and automatically assumed Python 3, what a 
sin!  The assumption obviously, not Python 3!!

>
> I yearn for the day when nobody uses Python 2 any more so this doesn't
> need to be asked.
>

I'm contemplating what it would be like migrating code from Python 1.x 
to Python 4.0, the fun and games that could be :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 11:33:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 03:33:05 +1100
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <l7nl5q$622$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7njp8$j0l$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpPoMxZgbSg1K6g=xCRyzgtQ2NVfeXL9-eHNpCrqyvhfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7nl5q$622$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpOLX0aq7LSvxu_RxppeWzMXF-HKQyQtxx22-BSnF0zNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:27 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm contemplating what it would be like migrating code from Python 1.x to
> Python 4.0, the fun and games that could be :)

I never used Python 1.x seriously, but when I went digging in one of
my OS/2 machines a while ago, I found several Pythons, including a
1.something. Fortunately for my task at hand, there was also a 2.5 or
2.6 or somesuch, which served my purposes :)

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 11:23:00 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 09:23:00 -0700
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <529F56E4.9030308@gmail.com>

On 12/04/2013 08:38 AM, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> my question, can i make it in just a single line like,
> 
> 1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)
> 
> Can I?

Yes of course.  raw_input() is going to give you a string that you can
then parse any way you want.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  4 11:36:53 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 16:36:53 +0000
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <529F56E4.9030308@gmail.com>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <529F56E4.9030308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7nlmu$ceh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 04/12/2013 16:23, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/04/2013 08:38 AM, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
>> my question, can i make it in just a single line like,
>>
>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)
>>
>> Can I?
>
> Yes of course.  raw_input() is going to give you a string that you can
> then parse any way you want.
>

That's it lad, you're in detention for one hour.  You will write 
repeatedly "I should be selling Python 3 instead of Python 2" :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From torriem at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 10:21:29 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 08:21:29 -0700
Subject: Input without line break, is it possible?
In-Reply-To: <l7nlmu$ceh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <6f831d02-26bf-4e68-a1c6-a9c9e87db1dc@googlegroups.com>
 <529F56E4.9030308@gmail.com> <l7nlmu$ceh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52A099F9.9000101@gmail.com>

On 12/04/2013 09:36 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 16:23, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> On 12/04/2013 08:38 AM, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
>>> my question, can i make it in just a single line like,
>>>
>>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 (and so forth)
>>>
>>> Can I?
>>
>> Yes of course.  raw_input() is going to give you a string that you can
>> then parse any way you want.
>>
> 
> That's it lad, you're in detention for one hour.  You will write 
> repeatedly "I should be selling Python 3 instead of Python 2" :)

Yup. Though if he is using Python 2, then input() is a real no-no.



From musicdenotation at gmail.com  Wed Dec  4 22:17:00 2013
From: musicdenotation at gmail.com (musicdenotation at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:17:00 +0700
Subject: The Python license
Message-ID: <529ff051.83c9440a.132c.28f5@mx.google.com>

The third clause of the PSF license requires you to include a brief summary of changes in Python-derived software. Why? How exactly to comply with it? I think that this condition is not suitable for using Python in closed-source software. I suggest to remove it.

From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec  4 22:37:09 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 22:37:09 -0500
Subject: The Python license
References: <mailman.3602.1386214314.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-8D7A09.22370904122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3602.1386214314.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 musicdenotation at gmail.com wrote:

Now that's the kind of software license I like.  Short, and easy to 
understand.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec  4 23:09:55 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2013 23:09:55 -0500
Subject: The Python license
In-Reply-To: <529ff051.83c9440a.132c.28f5@mx.google.com>
References: <529ff051.83c9440a.132c.28f5@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <l7ouaa$nao$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/4/2013 10:17 PM, musicdenotation at gmail.com wrote:
> The third clause of the PSF license requires you to include a brief
> summary of changes in Python-derived software.

"In the event Licensee prepares a derivative work that is based on or 
incorporates Python 3.3.3 or any part thereof, and wants to make the 
derivative work available to others as provided herein, then Licensee 
hereby agrees to include in any such work a brief summary of the changes 
made to Python 3.3.3."

A program written in Python uses some Python interpreter to execute but 
is not a derivative work of any of them, as meant above. (Similarly, a 
Standard C program is not a derivative work of any of the numerous C 
compilers.)

Examples where the above does or might apply:

Stackless Python 2.7 is based on CPython 2.7, but it alters the core 
interpreter a bit to make some things work (or work better). In the 
process, I believe that some 2.7 code is broken. So it should explain 
how the 'Stackless 2.7' language is slightly different from 'Python 2.7' 
(beside any bugfixes not ported back yet). (For one thing, we don't want 
bug reports like "I ran this code on Stackless and it worked. When I ran 
it on CPython, it failed. Please fix CPython.")

ActiveState Python x.y is CPython x.y, including the stdlib, plus some 
3rd party modules, plus propriety code, including a package manager for 
Windows. They *should* explain that, both to promote their distribution, 
and to avoid misunderstanding about what is included with the PSF 
distribution of CPython.

Some Python applications bundle the exact Python interpreter they work 
with. If they alter the bundled Python *and expose it to users*, as a 
scripting language, then they should explain the language changes. If 
they do not alter the bundled Python, there is nothing to explain (other 
than the version), even if it is exposed. For instance, Libre Office 4.0 
included a *nix-style copy of Python 3.3.0 for scripting purposes.

So the clause is needed, appropriate, and almost certainly not 
applicable to you.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Thu Dec  5 05:14:50 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 02:14:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
Message-ID: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>

Hi everyone,

I am developing a proprietary Python library. The library is currently Windows-only, and I want to also make it available for other platforms (Linux & Mac). I'm writing because I wanted to ask for your expert opinion on how to best do this.

The library is currently shipped in the form of a Zip file. This archive contains the compiled Python code for the implementation of my library, plus all dependencies. By placing the Zip file on his PYTHONPATH, the customer can use the library from his Python scripts.

Shipping a Zip file with all dependencies included has the following advantages:

 * No internet access or administrator privileges are required to install the library.
 * The customer does not have to worry about installing / managing dependencies of my library.

It also has the disadvantage that the customer is not (easily) able to use his own versions of my library's dependencies.

Even though I am not generating an EXE, I am using py2exe to obtain the distributable Zip file for my library. This "hack" is very convenient, as py2exe allows me to simply say which packages I require and does the work of performing a dependency analysis of the required libraries for me. py2exe automatically generates the Zip file with my (compiled) library code, and all dependencies.

Unfortunately, py2exe is only available for Windows. I need to also be able to build it on Linux & Mac, hence change the build process to not use py2exe.

My questions are:

 1. Is it considered a bad idea in the Python community to ship one large Zip file with all dependencies? From what I have seen, it seems to be an unusual approach, at the least. How do *you* prefer to obtain and install Python libraries?
 2. Is it possible to distribute the library in a form that allows for an offline installation without administrator privileges using other tools, such as setuptools?

My insight into the state of the art in Python regarding these matters is limited, so I would appreciate advice from someone with more experience in the subject.

A hard requirement is that I can only ship binary distributions of my library, as this is a proprietary product. I looked at Distutils and Setuptools, where the recommended approach seems to be to simply ship all sources.

Many thanks!


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 05:56:16 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 02:56:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:44:50 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I am developing a proprietary Python library. The library is currently Windows-only, and I want to also make it available for other platforms (Linux & Mac). I'm writing because I wanted to ask for your expert opinion on how to best do this.

Wheel is the upcoming standard I think.
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0427/

1. It would be dishonest to remove the 'upcoming'
2. It would also be dishonest if you thought I know anything about the subject :-)
3. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-virtualenv may be a better 
place to ask


From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 10:32:26 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:32:26 -0800
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>


On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:56 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> 3. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-virtualenv may be a better 
> place to ask

Am I the only one that sees the irony in this suggestion? Given the long running tirades^H^H^H^H^H^H thread about ?Managing Google Groups headaches??

?Pleassse don?t use Google Groupssssesss. It?sss nasssty. It hurtssess our eyesssessss with itsss long linessssieesss. Unlessssss it hassss a ssspecial neeeeed. Then the groupssesss are OK, Yessss?"

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 11:20:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 03:20:41 +1100
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqRaHv7Tx62N7qPTob1B=tVGJTJM4EMTxba_aVc8ApUDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:56 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> 3. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-virtualenv may be a better
>> place to ask
>
> Am I the only one that sees the irony in this suggestion? Given the long running tirades^H^H^H^H^H^H thread about ?Managing Google Groups headaches??
>
> ?Pleassse don?t use Google Groupssssesss. It?sss nasssty. It hurtssess our eyesssessss with itsss long linessssieesss. Unlessssss it hassss a ssspecial neeeeed. Then the groupssesss are OK, Yessss?"

No, it's not like that. It's that there are some people who, despite
truckloads of evidence to the contrary, still think that Google Groups
is worth using. Rusi is one of them. Fortunately, he has defended his
position by making his posts not look like the ridiculous junk that GG
creates by default, but that doesn't make GG a good product. It's like
an argument my boss and I had: I said that PHP is a bad language, and
he said that it can't possibly be a bad language because he's able to
write good code in it.

I don't know what mailing list there is for virtualenv as I don't use
it, but there's likely to be an alternative source of knowledge on it.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec  5 12:22:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 17:22:57 +0000
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqRaHv7Tx62N7qPTob1B=tVGJTJM4EMTxba_aVc8ApUDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqRaHv7Tx62N7qPTob1B=tVGJTJM4EMTxba_aVc8ApUDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7qcp0$co2$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 05/12/2013 16:20, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:56 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> 3. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-virtualenv may be a better
>>> place to ask
>>
>> Am I the only one that sees the irony in this suggestion? Given the long running tirades^H^H^H^H^H^H thread about ?Managing Google Groups headaches??
>>
>> ?Pleassse don?t use Google Groupssssesss. It?sss nasssty. It hurtssess our eyesssessss with itsss long linessssieesss. Unlessssss it hassss a ssspecial neeeeed. Then the groupssesss are OK, Yessss?"
>
> No, it's not like that. It's that there are some people who, despite
> truckloads of evidence to the contrary, still think that Google Groups
> is worth using. Rusi is one of them. Fortunately, he has defended his
> position by making his posts not look like the ridiculous junk that GG
> creates by default, but that doesn't make GG a good product. It's like
> an argument my boss and I had: I said that PHP is a bad language, and
> he said that it can't possibly be a bad language because he's able to
> write good code in it.
>
> I don't know what mailing list there is for virtualenv as I don't use
> it, but there's likely to be an alternative source of knowledge on it.
>
> ChrisA
>

gmane.comp.python.virtualenv

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec  5 12:12:30 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 09:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:20:41 AM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

> No, it's not like that. It's that there are some people who, despite
> truckloads of evidence to the contrary, still think that Google Groups
> > is worth using. Rusi is one of them. Fortunately, he has defended his
> > position by making his posts not look like the ridiculous junk that GG
> > creates by default, but that doesn't make GG a good product.

I use GG on occasion (I'm using it now), when I don't have access to a better newsreader.  Like Rusi, I take the effort to clean up the double-space mess GG produces by default.  That doesn't mean GG isn't a piece of crap; it is.  That fact that I, and Rusi, know enough, and take the effort, to overcome its shortcomings doesn't change that.

I put GG it in the category of "attractive nuisance".  It's like leaving cans of spray paint laying around school playgrounds and then being surprised when the kids pick them up and use them to paint graffiti.  It certainly violates Google's "do no harm" motto when it interacts with usenet groups.

I keep hearing that I should use gmane as a superior interface.  Well, I tried that.  I went to http://dir.gmane.org/search.php, where it asks me to search for a newsgroup.  I type in "comp.lang.python", and it tells me, "No matching groups".  So, that seems pretty broken to me.

> It's like an argument my boss and I had: I said that PHP is a bad language, and
> he said that it can't possibly be a bad language because he's able to
> write good code in it.

PHP is a disaster of a language.  But, like any bad tool, a good craftsman can produce a quality product with it.  Wikipedia is written in PHP.  So, apparently, is gmane :-)  As much as I loathe working with PHP, I have to admit that if you can build a product like Wikipedia on it, it must have some redeeming qualities.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 12:46:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 04:46:48 +1100
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqXVRfXynakTJ1DYzTc5v509FO6Qx8oeYcK13yv7MNPzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:12 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> It's like an argument my boss and I had: I said that PHP is a bad language, and
>> he said that it can't possibly be a bad language because he's able to
>> write good code in it.
>
> PHP is a disaster of a language.  But, like any bad tool, a good craftsman can produce a quality product with it.  Wikipedia is written in PHP.  So, apparently, is gmane :-)  As much as I loathe working with PHP, I have to admit that if you can build a product like Wikipedia on it, it must have some redeeming qualities.

Right. And the fact that Wikipedia can be written in PHP is not itself
proof that it's a good language. You and Rusi are fighting against
GG's faults and not entirely succeeding, as your paragraphs come out
unwrapped; that's possibly the least of the GG woes, but it's one of
the first clues that someone's replies are likely to be double-spaced.

A good tool does most of your work for you. A bad tool has to be
fought every inch of the way. Sometimes a tool is good but wrongly
chosen (don't use DeScribe Macro Language for writing a GUI - drop to
REXX for that!), but some tools have no good use at all.

ChrisA


From z at etiol.net  Thu Dec  5 12:50:45 2013
From: z at etiol.net (Zero Piraeus)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 14:50:45 -0300
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131205175045.GA7679@piedra>

:

On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 09:12:30AM -0800, Roy Smith wrote:
> I keep hearing that I should use gmane as a superior interface.  Well,
> I tried that.  I went to http://dir.gmane.org/search.php, where it
> asks me to search for a newsgroup.  I type in "comp.lang.python", and
> it tells me, "No matching groups".  So, that seems pretty broken to
> me.

That's not entirely fair - Gmane presents mailing lists as newsgroups,
not vice versa, so it doesn't know that python-list at python.org is
connected to comp.lang.python (or that comp.lang.python even exists).

A search for the mailing list from the front page works just fine:

  http://gmane.org/find.php?list=python-list%40python.org

 -[]z.

-- 
Zero Piraeus: flagellum dei
http://etiol.net/pubkey.asc


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec  5 13:18:30 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 18:18:30 +0000
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <20131205175045.GA7679@piedra>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
 <20131205175045.GA7679@piedra>
Message-ID: <l7qg15$lqj$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 05/12/2013 17:50, Zero Piraeus wrote:
> :
>
> On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 09:12:30AM -0800, Roy Smith wrote:
>> I keep hearing that I should use gmane as a superior interface.  Well,
>> I tried that.  I went to http://dir.gmane.org/search.php, where it
>> asks me to search for a newsgroup.  I type in "comp.lang.python", and
>> it tells me, "No matching groups".  So, that seems pretty broken to
>> me.
>
> That's not entirely fair - Gmane presents mailing lists as newsgroups,
> not vice versa, so it doesn't know that python-list at python.org is
> connected to comp.lang.python (or that comp.lang.python even exists).
>
> A search for the mailing list from the front page works just fine:
>
>    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=python-list%40python.org
>
>   -[]z.
>

Another useful link, there are just a few python goodies there 
http://news.gmane.org/index.php?prefix=gmane.comp.python

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From robert.kern at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 13:28:25 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 18:28:25 +0000
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <20131205175045.GA7679@piedra>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3610.1386260445.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b899369-c6c9-44d1-980f-05c32c704e07@googlegroups.com>
 <20131205175045.GA7679@piedra>
Message-ID: <l7qgjt$rs5$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-05 17:50, Zero Piraeus wrote:
> :
>
> On Thu, Dec 05, 2013 at 09:12:30AM -0800, Roy Smith wrote:
>> I keep hearing that I should use gmane as a superior interface.  Well,
>> I tried that.  I went to http://dir.gmane.org/search.php, where it
>> asks me to search for a newsgroup.  I type in "comp.lang.python", and
>> it tells me, "No matching groups".  So, that seems pretty broken to
>> me.
>
> That's not entirely fair - Gmane presents mailing lists as newsgroups,
> not vice versa, so it doesn't know that python-list at python.org is
> connected to comp.lang.python (or that comp.lang.python even exists).
>
> A search for the mailing list from the front page works just fine:
>
>    http://gmane.org/find.php?list=python-list%40python.org

Right. GMane is an NNTP service, but it is not part of the USENET network. 
comp.lang.python is a USENET newsgroup and requires a true USENET server (not 
just an NNTP server) to access.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Thu Dec  5 16:56:27 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 08:56:27 +1100
Subject: Official discussion forum for a project (was: Packaging a proprietary
 Python library for multiple OSs)
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
 <219CFE92-92F1-47EB-850C-BDF5024E1F3E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7weh5rner8.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>

Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> writes:

> On Dec 5, 2013, at 2:56 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 3. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-virtualenv may be
> > a better place to ask
>
> Am I the only one that sees the irony in this suggestion? Given the
> long running tirades^H^H^H^H^H^H thread about ?Managing Google Groups
> headaches??

In addition to the fact that ?rusi? evidently does not hold that
position, the Virtualenv project <URL:http://www.virtualenv.org/> has
its official discussion forum hosted at Google Groups, and the above
quote merely points that out.

One can recommend strongly against Google Groups in general as a
dreadful service, while still directing people to the official
discussion forum for a particular project which has made the (to
whatever degree misguided) decision to use that service.

-- 
 \         ?Simplicity and elegance are unpopular because they require |
  `\           hard work and discipline to achieve and education to be |
_o__)                                appreciated.? ?Edsger W. Dijkstra |
Ben Finney



From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Thu Dec  5 10:41:21 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:41:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <921295d6-a73f-4379-a938-c5188e35b6bd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2c4fe992-5909-4c6c-a85f-4a46bc8b7a14@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:56:16 AM UTC+1, rusi wrote:
> Wheel is the upcoming standard I think.
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0427/

I hadn't known of Wheel - thanks for pointing it out!



From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec  5 09:09:32 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 09:09:32 -0500
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-F38577.09093205122013@news.panix.com>

In article <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c at googlegroups.com>,
 Michael Herrmann <michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com> wrote:

>  1. Is it considered a bad idea in the Python community to ship one large Zip 
>  file with all dependencies?

Yes.

> How do *you* prefer to obtain and install Python libraries?

"pip install"

>  2. Is it possible to distribute the library in a form that allows for an 
>  offline installation without administrator privileges using other tools, 
>  such as setuptools?

You can use "pip --find-links" to point pip at a local repository of 
packages.  That solves the offline part.  And the "without admin privs" 
part is solved by setting up a virtualenv.

> A hard requirement is that I can only ship binary distributions of my 
> library, as this is a proprietary product. I looked at Distutils and 
> Setuptools, where the recommended approach seems to be to simply ship all 
> sources.

Keep in mind that shipping just the pyc files offers very weak 
protection against people examining your code.  Google for "python 
decompile" and you'll find a number of projects.  I'm looking at the 
docs for uncompyle now, which says:

> 'uncompyle' converts Python byte-code back into equivalent Python
> source. It accepts byte-code from Python version 2.7 only.
> 
> The generated source is very readable: docstrings, lists, tuples and
> hashes get pretty-printed.

About the only thing not shipping Python source does is satisfy a 
check-box requirement that you not ship source.  It may make the lawyers 
and bean-counters happy, but that's about it.


From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Thu Dec  5 10:49:35 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:49:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <roy-F38577.09093205122013@news.panix.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-F38577.09093205122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <6c283680-20b7-49c5-9b1e-50680e2118a0@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:09:32 PM UTC+1, Roy Smith wrote:
> >  1. Is it considered a bad idea in the Python community to ship one large Zip file with all dependencies?
> Yes.

I see. Unfortunately, the library's users may be non-technical and might not even have experience with Python. The easier the installation process, therefore, the better.

> > How do *you* prefer to obtain and install Python libraries?
> "pip install"

Thanks for this input.

> >  2. Is it possible to distribute the library in a form that allows for an 
> >  offline installation without administrator privileges using other tools, 
> >  such as setuptools?
> 
> You can use "pip --find-links" to point pip at a local repository of 
> packages.  That solves the offline part.  And the "without admin privs" 
> part is solved by setting up a virtualenv.

Both "pip --find-links" and "virtualenv" sound technically feasible but may be too difficult for my users (especially virtualenv).

> > A hard requirement is that I can only ship binary distributions of my 
> > library, as this is a proprietary product. I looked at Distutils and 
> > Setuptools, where the recommended approach seems to be to simply ship all 
> > sources.
> Keep in mind that shipping just the pyc files offers very weak 
> protection against people examining your code.  Google for "python 
> decompile" and you'll find a number of projects.  I'm looking at the 
> docs for uncompyle now, which says:
> > 'uncompyle' converts Python byte-code back into equivalent Python
> > source. It accepts byte-code from Python version 2.7 only.

Very interesting point. Thank you very much for pointing out uncompyle. I had always known that it was easy to decompile .pyc files, but hadn't imagined it to be that easy. I just tried uncompyle with some of our proprietary .pyc files. It took 5 minutes to set up and the results are near-perfect. Scary... :-S We might have to look into tools such as http://www.bitboost.com/#Python_obfuscator to obfuscate our code.

Thanks for the valuable insights!
Michael


From random832 at fastmail.us  Thu Dec  5 10:52:45 2013
From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:52:45 -0500
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <6c283680-20b7-49c5-9b1e-50680e2118a0@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-F38577.09093205122013@news.panix.com>
 <6c283680-20b7-49c5-9b1e-50680e2118a0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1386258765.7927.55933597.6D0E1B0E@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013, at 10:49, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> Very interesting point. Thank you very much for pointing out uncompyle. I
> had always known that it was easy to decompile .pyc files, but hadn't
> imagined it to be that easy. I just tried uncompyle with some of our
> proprietary .pyc files. It took 5 minutes to set up and the results are
> near-perfect. Scary... :-S We might have to look into tools such as
> http://www.bitboost.com/#Python_obfuscator to obfuscate our code.

Or you could just sue anyone who steals your code.


From mherrmann.at at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 11:24:06 2013
From: mherrmann.at at gmail.com (mherrmann.at at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 08:24:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3609.1386258767.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-F38577.09093205122013@news.panix.com>
 <6c283680-20b7-49c5-9b1e-50680e2118a0@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3609.1386258767.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <70d4d533-7b4c-4fcd-b3fc-4c4206a75098@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, 5 December 2013 16:52:45 UTC+1, rand... at fastmail.us wrote:
> Or you could just sue anyone who steals your code.

I see your point but I don't think it's very practical. If the person who stole the code sits in some remote country with a completely different legal system, I think I'll have a hard time getting at this person. If I even manage to find out where the person is at all.


From kw at codebykevin.com  Thu Dec  5 10:26:40 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:26:40 -0500
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7q5vi$5ts$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/5/13, 5:14 AM, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> Even though I am not generating an EXE, I am using py2exe to obtain the distributable Zip file for my library. This "hack" is very convenient, as py2exe allows me to simply say which packages I require and does the work of performing a dependency analysis of the required libraries for me. py2exe automatically generates the Zip file with my (compiled) library code, and all dependencies.

If your library and their dependencies are simply .pyc files, then I 
don't see why a zip collated via py2exe wouldn't work on other 
platforms. Obviously this point is moot if your library includes true 
compiled (C-based) extensions.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Thu Dec  5 10:50:38 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:50:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <l7q5vi$5ts$1@dont-email.me>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <l7q5vi$5ts$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <c2c90370-5021-47df-a1e3-e7695b09fb40@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:26:40 PM UTC+1, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> On 12/5/13, 5:14 AM, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> If your library and their dependencies are simply .pyc files, then I 
> don't see why a zip collated via py2exe wouldn't work on other 
> platforms. Obviously this point is moot if your library includes true 
> compiled (C-based) extensions.

As I said, I need to make my *build* platform-independent.

Thanks,
Michael


From kw at codebykevin.com  Thu Dec  5 11:03:06 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 11:03:06 -0500
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <c2c90370-5021-47df-a1e3-e7695b09fb40@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <l7q5vi$5ts$1@dont-email.me>
 <c2c90370-5021-47df-a1e3-e7695b09fb40@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7q83q$j2h$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/5/13, 10:50 AM, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> As I said, I need to make my *build* platform-independent.

cx_Freeze is platform independent, but I'm not sure if it generates 
libraries or simply executables.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From kw at codebykevin.com  Fri Dec  6 10:35:26 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:35:26 -0500
Subject: Packaging a proprietary Python library for multiple OSs
In-Reply-To: <c2c90370-5021-47df-a1e3-e7695b09fb40@googlegroups.com>
References: <58d49c5b-c837-4dac-b764-369fea02568c@googlegroups.com>
 <l7q5vi$5ts$1@dont-email.me>
 <c2c90370-5021-47df-a1e3-e7695b09fb40@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7sqrs$30a$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/5/13, 10:50 AM, Michael Herrmann wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:26:40 PM UTC+1, Kevin Walzer wrote:
>> On 12/5/13, 5:14 AM, Michael Herrmann wrote:
>> If your library and their dependencies are simply .pyc files, then I
>> don't see why a zip collated via py2exe wouldn't work on other
>> platforms. Obviously this point is moot if your library includes true
>> compiled (C-based) extensions.
>
> As I said, I need to make my *build* platform-independent.

Giving this further thought, I'm wondering how hard it would be to roll 
your own using modulefinder, Python's zip tools, and some custom code. 
Just sayin'.

--Kevin


-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From ramkrishan.bhatt at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 08:39:29 2013
From: ramkrishan.bhatt at gmail.com (ramkrishan.bhatt at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 05:39:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Finding keywords
In-Reply-To: <il8g1a$2rud$1@adenine.netfront.net>
References: <il4l8j$2caq$1@adenine.netfront.net>
 <mailman.743.1299588007.1189.python-list@python.org>
 <il5cmt$2t4k$1@adenine.netfront.net>
 <mailman.757.1299613873.1189.python-list@python.org>
 <il8g1a$2rud$1@adenine.netfront.net>
Message-ID: <b837ec11-498d-4da2-86a7-6ea345eb47d7@googlegroups.com>

Hi , If you got the solutions please let me know also. I have to implement asap.
On Wednesday, 9 March 2011 23:43:26 UTC+5:30, Cross  wrote:
> On 03/09/2011 01:21 AM, Vlastimil Brom wrote:
> > 2011/3/8 Cross<X at x.tv>:
> >> On 03/08/2011 06:09 PM, Heather Brown wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The keywords are an attribute in a tag called<meta>, in the section
> >>> called
> >>> <head>. Are you having trouble parsing the xhtml to that point?
> >>>
> >>> Be more specific in your question, and somebody is likely to chime in.
> >>> Although
> >>> I'm not the one, if it's a question of parsing the xhtml.
> >>>
> >>> DaveA
> >>
> >> I know meta tags contain keywords but they are not always reliable. I can
> >> parse xhtml to obtain keywords from meta tags; but how do I verify them. To
> >> obtain reliable keywords, I have to parse the plain text obtained from the
> >> URL.
> >>
> >> Cross
> >>
> >> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news at netfront.net ---
> >> --
> >> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >>
> >
> > Hi,
> > if you need to extract meaningful keywords in terms of data mining
> > using natural language processing, it might become quite a complex
> > task, depending on the requirements; the NLTK toolkit may help with
> > some approaches [ http://www.nltk.org/ ].
> > One possibility would be to filter out more frequent and less
> > meaningful words ("stopwords") and extract the more frequent words
> > from the reminder., e.g. (with some simplifications/hacks in the
> > interactive mode):
> >
> >>>> import re, urllib2, nltk
> >>>> page_src = urllib2.urlopen("http://www.python.org/doc/essays/foreword/").read().decode("utf-8")
> >>>> page_plain = nltk.clean_html(page_src).lower()
> >>>> txt_filtered = nltk.Text((word for word in re.findall(r"(?u)\w+", page_plain) if word not in set(nltk.corpus.stopwords.words("english"))))
> >>>> frequency_dist = nltk.FreqDist(txt_filtered)
> >>>> [(word, freq) for (word, freq) in frequency_dist.items() if freq>  2]
> > [(u'python', 39), (u'abc', 11), (u'code', 10), (u'c', 7),
> > (u'language', 7), (u'programming', 7), (u'unix', 7), (u'foreword', 5),
> > (u'new', 5), (u'would', 5), (u'1st', 4), (u'book', 4), (u'ed', 4),
> > (u'features', 4), (u'many', 4), (u'one', 4), (u'programmer', 4),
> > (u'time', 4), (u'use', 4), (u'community', 3), (u'documentation', 3),
> > (u'early', 3), (u'enough', 3), (u'even', 3), (u'first', 3), (u'help',
> > 3), (u'indentation', 3), (u'instance', 3), (u'less', 3), (u'like', 3),
> > (u'makes', 3), (u'personal', 3), (u'programmers', 3), (u'readability',
> > 3), (u'readable', 3), (u'write', 3)]
> >>>>
> >
> > Another possibility would be to extract parts of speech (e.g. nouns,
> > adjective, verbs) using e.g. nltk.pos_tag(input_txt) etc.;
> > for more convoluted html code e.g. BeautifulSoup might be used and
> > there are likely many other options.
> >
> > hth,
> >    vbr
> I had considered nltk. That is why I said that straightforward frequency 
> calculation of words would be naive. I have to look into this BeautifulSoup thing.
> 
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news at netfront.net ---



From bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 10:35:10 2013
From: bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com (bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 07:35:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why Muslims Believe that Islam is the truth ?????????????
Message-ID: <50a2d633-78a2-4a1f-ac2d-4f52d0332a14@googlegroups.com>

Why Muslims Believe that Islam is the truth


Many Christians & Jews don't know that Muslims believe in their prophets and holy books. Muslims believe that the Bible and the Torah were changed by people for their personal benefits. This is why God sent Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, not with a new religion, but to correct the people who had gone astray, those who were worshipping idols and being misguided by their forefathers.

Islam is the last message to the world and God wants the miracle of Islam to be witnessed by the people from Prophet Muhammad's, peace be upon him, time till the day of Judgment. The miracle is the Qu'ran, Muslims holy book.

Many Christians & Jews don't know that Muslims believe in their prophets and holy books. Muslims believe that the Bible and the Torah were changed by people for their personal benefits. This is why God sent Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, not with a new religion, but to correct the people who had gone astray, those who were worshipping idols and being misguided by their forefathers.

Islam is the last message to the world and God wants the miracle of Islam to be witnessed by the people from Prophet Muhammad's, peace be upon him, time till the day of Judgment. The miracle is the Qu'ran, Muslims holy book.


Why is the Qur'an a miracle ?

1- The Qu'ran is an untouchable book : After 1400 years, from the begining of Prophet Muhammad's, peace be upon him, message, the Qu'ran has not changed in any way, even as a matter of one charachter. Prooving this is very easy, since you can compare all the versions of the Qu'ran everywhere in the world and you will find them all the same. God ensured that this book would be saved from any changes attempted by human beings. God said in the Qur'an : " We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)"

2- The Qu'ran contains many scientific facts that have been discovered recently using computer systems and microscopes. Many scientists have attended conferences dealing with this subject and have themselves accepted Islam. These same scientists have said that it is not possible that Muhammad, peace be upon him, an illiterate man, who lived 1400 years ago, could have discovered such things on his own. God said in the Qur'an : "Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things" ( Quran 41:53 )

3- The Qu'ran, which is in Arabic, was revealed to the people of the Arabian Gulf who invented the Arabic language. Through Muhammad, peace be upon him, Allah challenged the people who claimed that a human wrote it to emulate such a book. No one from the time of the Prophet till now could write a book that contained the many scientific facts, miracles and similar effects on people that the Qu'ran did and still does today.

4- The Qu'ran had not one Arabic grammar mistake, which was recognized by the disbelievers at the time of the Prophet, who were the founders of the Arabic language.

These are a few examples of why Muslims believe in the Qur'an.

Here are some verses from God to Muslims encouraging them to invite the People of the Book ( Jews and Christians to Islam ):

God said : {Say: "O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Signs of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?} (Quran 3:98)

God tell Muslims to say : {..'We believe in that which had been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender} (Quran 29:46)

If you have any questions or would like to know more about the Qu'ran and Islam please contact me at : webmaster at islamway.com andenglish at islamway.com
=================================
http://en.islamway.net/article/8124

thank you


From tastyminerals at gmail.com  Thu Dec  5 15:26:11 2013
From: tastyminerals at gmail.com (tastyminerals)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:26:11 +0300
Subject: PIL(Pillow) fails with PNG image
Message-ID: <52A0E163.5030702@gmail.com>

Hi, I am getting an error when trying to use Pillow library to display 
image PNG  on a Tkinter Button widget. Here is my code.

|image=  Image.open(os.path.join('icons','bulb.png'))  # using PIL for png images
         self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)

|>>>
|File  "/home/user/Documents/temp.py",  line222,  in  drawButtons
     self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)
   File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageTk.py",  line121,  in  __init__
     self.paste(image)
   File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageTk.py",  line171,  in  paste
     im.load()
   File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageFile.py",  line192,  in  load
     d=  Image._getdecoder(self.mode,  d,  a,  self.decoderconfig)
AttributeError:  'module'  object has no attribute'_getdecoder'|||

While working fine under windows 7x64 it fails to work on Linux Mint 
x64. I am getting this error running the same file. I installed 
everything I could find with 'python','png' and 'tk' from the reps but 
no effect. Any ideas why is this happening and how to fix this?

Pavel
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec  5 20:14:25 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 20:14:25 -0500
Subject: PIL(Pillow) fails with PNG image
In-Reply-To: <52A0E163.5030702@gmail.com>
References: <52A0E163.5030702@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7r8d9$cnt$1@ger.gmane.org>

I cannot answer your question, but wanted to mention that you should 
send text only and not include an html copy of messages.

On 12/5/2013 3:26 PM, tastyminerals wrote:
> Hi, I am getting an error when trying to use Pillow library to display
> image PNG  on a Tkinter Button widget. Here is my code.
>
> |image=  Image.open(os.path.join('icons','bulb.png'))  # using PIL for png images
>          self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)
>
> |>>>
> |File  "/home/user/Documents/temp.py",  line222,  in  drawButtons
>      self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)
>    File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageTk.py",  line121,  in  __init__
>      self.paste(image)
>    File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageTk.py",  line171,  in  paste
>      im.load()
>    File  "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/PIL/ImageFile.py",  line192,  in  load
>      d=  Image._getdecoder(self.mode,  d,  a,  self.decoderconfig)
> AttributeError:  'module'  object has no attribute'_getdecoder'|||
>
> While working fine under windows 7x64 it fails to work on Linux Mint
> x64. I am getting this error running the same file. I installed
> everything I could find with 'python','png' and 'tk' from the reps but
> no effect. Any ideas why is this happening and how to fix this?
>
> Pavel
>
>


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From gordon at panix.com  Thu Dec  5 21:07:05 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 02:07:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: PIL(Pillow) fails with PNG image
References: <mailman.3618.1386290317.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7rbg9$paj$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <mailman.3618.1386290317.18130.python-list at python.org> tastyminerals <tastyminerals at gmail.com> writes:

>      d=  Image._getdecoder(self.mode,  d,  a,  self.decoderconfig)
> AttributeError:  'module'  object has no attribute'_getdecoder'|||

Do you have your own module named Image.py?

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From auriocus at gmx.de  Fri Dec  6 01:54:09 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 07:54:09 +0100
Subject: PIL(Pillow) fails with PNG image
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3618.1386290317.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3618.1386290317.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l7rsac$7hv$1@dont-email.me>

Am 05.12.13 21:26, schrieb tastyminerals:
> Hi, I am getting an error when trying to use Pillow library to display
> image PNG  on a Tkinter Button widget. Here is my code.
>
> |image=  Image.open(os.path.join('icons','bulb.png'))  # using PIL for png images
>          self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(image)

I don't know what is the problem here, but Tk supports PNG natively from 
8.5 onwards; just use

	self.correctGuessImage=  ImageTk.PhotoImage(file='bulb.png')

Christian


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Thu Dec  5 21:34:27 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 13:04:27 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
Message-ID: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi!

I hope I've got the right list here- there were a few to choose from. :}

I am trying to embed Python with multiple interpreters into an existing 
application. I have things working fine with a single interpreter thus 
far. I am running into problems when using multiple interpreters [1] and 
I am presently trying to track down these issues. Can anyone familiar 
with the process of embedding multiple interpreters have a skim of the 
details below and let me know of any obvious problems? If I can get the 
essentials right, then presumably it's just a matter of my tracking down 
any problems with my code.

I am presently using Python 3.3.3.

What I am after:

- Each sub-interpreter will have its own dedicated thread. Each thread 
will have no more than one sub-interpreter. Basically, there is a 
one-to-one mapping between threads and interpreters (some threads are 
unrelated to Python though).

- The default interpreter in the main thread will never be used, 
although I can explicitly use it if it'll help in some way.

- Each thread is created and managed outside of Python. This can't be 
readily changed.

- I have a single internal module I need to be able to use for each 
interpreter.

- I load scripts into __main__ and create objects from it to bootstrap.

- I understand that for the most part only a single interpreter will be 
running at a time due to the GIL. This is unfortunate but not a major 
problem.

- I don't need to share objects between interpreters (if it is even 
possible- I don't know).

- My fallback if I can't do this is to implement each instance in a 
dedicated *process* rather than per-thread. However, there is a 
significant cost to doing this that I would rather not incur.

Could I confirm:

- There is one GIL in a given process, shared amongst all (sub) 
interpreters. There seems some disagreement on this one online, although 
I'm fairly confident that there is only the one GIL.

- I am using the mod_wsgi source for inspiration. Is there a better 
source for an example of embedding multiple interpreters?

A query re the doco:

http://docs.python.org/3/c-api/init.html#gilstate

"Python supports the creation of additional interpreters (using 
Py_NewInterpreter()), but mixing multiple interpreters and the 
PyGILState_*() API is unsupported."

Is this actually correct? mod_wsgi seems to do it. Have I misunderstood?

I've extracted what I have so far from my code into a form that can be 
followed more easily. Hopefully I have not made any mistakes in doing 
so. The essence of what my code calls should be as follows:

=== Global init, run once:

static PyThreadState *mtstate = NULL;

PyImport_AppendInittab("myinternalmodule", PyInit_myinternalmodule);
Py_SetProgramName((wchar_t *)"foo");
Pu_InitializeEx(0);
PyEval_InitThreads();
mtstate = PyThreadState_Get();
PyEval_ReleaseThread(mtstate);

=== Global shutdown, run once at end:

Py_Finalize();

=== Per-interpreter init in main thread before launching child thread:

(none thus far)

=== Init in dedicated thread for each interpreter:

// NB: Also protected by a single global non-Python mutex to be sure.

PyGILState_STATE gil = PyGILState_Ensure();
PyThreadState *save_tstate = PyThreadState_Swap(NULL);
state = Py_NewInterpreter();
PyThreadState_Swap(save_tstate);

PyObject *mmodule = PyImport_AddModule("__main__");
Py_INCREF(mmodule);

PyImport_ImportModule("myinternalmodule");

PyGILState_Release(gil);

=== Shutdown in dedicated thread for each interpreter:

// NB: Also protected by the same single global non-Python mutex as in 
the init.

PyGILState_STATE gil = PyGILState_Ensure();
PyThreadState *save_tstate = PyThreadState_Swap(state);
Py_EndInterpreter(state);
PyThreadState_Swap(save_tstate);
PyGILState_Release(gil);

=== Placed at top of scope where calls made to Python C API:

SafeLock lock;

=== SafeLock implementation:

class SafeLock
{
   public:
     SafeLock() {gil = PyGILState_Ensure();}
     ~SafeLock() {PyGILState_Release(gil);}

   private:
     PyGILState_STATE gil;
};

===

Does this look roughly right? Have I got the global and per-interpreter 
init and shutdown right? Am I locking correctly in SafeLock- is 
PyGILState_Ensure() and PyGILState_Release() sufficient?

Is there an authoritative summary of the global and per-interpreter init 
and shutdown somewhere that I have missed? Any resource I should be reading?

Cheers,
Garth

[1] It presently crashes in Py_EndInterpreter() after running through a 
series of tests during the shutdown of the 32nd interpreter I create. I 
don't know if this is significant, but the tests pass for the first 31 
interpreters.


From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 00:16:21 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2013 22:16:21 -0700
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>

On 12/05/2013 07:34 PM, Garthy wrote:
> - My fallback if I can't do this is to implement each instance in a 
> dedicated *process* rather than per-thread. However, there is a 
> significant cost to doing this that I would rather not incur.

What cost is this? Are you speaking of cost in terms of what you the
programmer would have to do, cost in terms of setting things up and
communicating with the process, or the cost of creating a process vs a
thread?  If it's the last, on most modern OS's (particularly Linux),
it's really not that expensive.  On Linux the cost of threads and
processes are nearly the same.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 00:21:23 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:21:23 +1100
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
 <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpX7w0_+zD0NtY6Yc+U+yOjJW6pMinLdZYs2kr85X8BWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/05/2013 07:34 PM, Garthy wrote:
>> - My fallback if I can't do this is to implement each instance in a
>> dedicated *process* rather than per-thread. However, there is a
>> significant cost to doing this that I would rather not incur.
>
> What cost is this? Are you speaking of cost in terms of what you the
> programmer would have to do, cost in terms of setting things up and
> communicating with the process, or the cost of creating a process vs a
> thread?  If it's the last, on most modern OS's (particularly Linux),
> it's really not that expensive.  On Linux the cost of threads and
> processes are nearly the same.

If you want my guess, the cost of going to multiple processes would be
to do with passing data back and forth between them. Why is Python
being embedded in another application? Sounds like there's data moving
from C to Python to C, ergo breaking that into separate processes
means lots of IPC.

ChrisA


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 01:30:59 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:00:59 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpX7w0_+zD0NtY6Yc+U+yOjJW6pMinLdZYs2kr85X8BWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
 <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpX7w0_+zD0NtY6Yc+U+yOjJW6pMinLdZYs2kr85X8BWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A16F23.2050107@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Chris (and Michael),

On 06/12/13 15:51, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Michael Torrie<torriem at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/05/2013 07:34 PM, Garthy wrote:
>>> - My fallback if I can't do this is to implement each instance in a
>>> dedicated *process* rather than per-thread. However, there is a
>>> significant cost to doing this that I would rather not incur.
>>
>> What cost is this? Are you speaking of cost in terms of what you the
>> programmer would have to do, cost in terms of setting things up and
>> communicating with the process, or the cost of creating a process vs a
>> thread?  If it's the last, on most modern OS's (particularly Linux),
>> it's really not that expensive.  On Linux the cost of threads and
>> processes are nearly the same.
>
> If you want my guess, the cost of going to multiple processes would be
> to do with passing data back and forth between them. Why is Python
> being embedded in another application? Sounds like there's data moving
> from C to Python to C, ergo breaking that into separate processes
> means lots of IPC.

An excellent guess. :)

One characteristic of the application I am looking to embed Python in is 
that there are a fairly large number calls from the app into Python, and 
for each, generally many back to the app. There is a healthy amount of 
data flowing back and forth each time. An implementation with an 
inter-process roundtrip each time (with a different scripting language) 
proved to be too limiting, and needlessly complicated the design of the 
app. As such, more development effort has gone into making things work 
better with components that work well running across thread boundaries 
than process boundaries.

I am confident at this point I could pull things off with a Python 
one-interpreter-per-process design, but I'd then need to visit the IPC 
side of things again and put up with the limitations that arise. 
Additionally, the IPC code has has less attention and isn't as capable. 
I know roughly how I'd proceed if I went with this approach, but it is 
the least desirable outcome of the two.

However, if I could manage to get a thread-based solution going, I can 
put the effort where it is most productive, namely into making sure that 
the thread-based solution works best. This is my preferred outcome and 
current goal. :)

Cheers,
Garth




From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 03:16:57 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 18:46:57 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
 <52A15DA5.3040705@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A187F9.907@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Chris (and Michael),

On 06/12/13 15:46, Michael Torrie wrote:
 > On 12/05/2013 07:34 PM, Garthy wrote:
 >> - My fallback if I can't do this is to implement each instance in a
 >> dedicated *process* rather than per-thread. However, there is a
 >> significant cost to doing this that I would rather not incur.
 >
 > What cost is this? Are you speaking of cost in terms of what you the
 > programmer would have to do, cost in terms of setting things up and
 > communicating with the process, or the cost of creating a process vs a
 > thread?  If it's the last, on most modern OS's (particularly Linux),
 > it's really not that expensive.  On Linux the cost of threads and
 > processes are nearly the same.

An excellent guess. :)

One characteristic of the application I am looking to embed Python in is 
that there are a fairly large number calls from the app into Python, and 
for each, generally many back to the app. There is a healthy amount of 
data flowing back and forth each time. An implementation with an 
inter-process roundtrip each time (with a different scripting language) 
proved to be too limiting, and needlessly complicated the design of the 
app. As such, more development effort has gone into making things work 
better with components that work well running across thread boundaries 
than process boundaries.

I am confident at this point I could pull things off with a Python 
one-interpreter-per-process design, but I'd then need to visit the IPC 
side of things again and put up with the limitations that arise. 
Additionally, the IPC code has has less attention and isn't as capable. 
I know roughly how I'd proceed if I went with this approach, but it is 
the least desirable outcome of the two.

However, if I could manage to get a thread-based solution going, I can 
put the effort where it is most productive, namely into making sure that 
the thread-based solution works best. This is my preferred outcome and 
current goal. :)

Cheers,
Garth


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 01:44:52 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:14:52 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52A17264.2040407@entropicsoftware.com>

Hi all,

A small update here:

On 06/12/13 13:04, Garthy wrote:
 > [1] It presently crashes in Py_EndInterpreter() after running through a
 > series of tests during the shutdown of the 32nd interpreter I create. I
 > don't know if this is significant, but the tests pass for the first 31
 > interpreters.

This turned out to be a red herring, so please ignore this bit. I had a 
code path that failed to call Py_INCREF on Py_None which was held in a 
PyObject that was later Py_DECREF'd. This had some interesting 
consequences, and not surprisingly led to some double-frees. ;)

I was able to get much further with this fix, although I'm still having 
some trouble getting multiple interpreters running together 
simultaneously. Advice and thoughts still very much welcomed on the rest 
of the email. :)

Cheers,
Garth


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec  6 01:58:49 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:58:49 +1300
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>

Garthy wrote:
> I am running into problems when using multiple interpreters [1] and 
> I am presently trying to track down these issues. Can anyone familiar 
> with the process of embedding multiple interpreters have a skim of the 
> details below and let me know of any obvious problems?

As far as I know, multiple interpreters in one process is
not really supported. There *seems* to be partial support for
it in the code, but there is no way to fully isolate them
from each other.

Why do you think you need multiple interpreters, as opposed
to one interpreter with multiple threads? If you're trying
to sandbox the threads from each other and/or from the rest
of the system, be aware that it's extremely difficult to
securely sandbox Python code. You'd be much safer to run
each one in its own process and rely on OS-level protections.

> - I understand that for the most part only a single interpreter will be 
> running at a time due to the GIL.

Yes, as far as I can tell, there is only one GIL in a given
process.

> - I don't need to share objects between interpreters (if it is even 
> possible- I don't know).

The hard part is *not* sharing objects between interpreters.
If nothing else, all the builtin type objects, constants, etc.
will be shared.

-- 
Greg


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 02:59:52 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 18:29:52 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Gregory,

On 06/12/13 17:28, Gregory Ewing wrote:
 > Garthy wrote:
 >> I am running into problems when using multiple interpreters [1] and I
 >> am presently trying to track down these issues. Can anyone familiar
 >> with the process of embedding multiple interpreters have a skim of the
 >> details below and let me know of any obvious problems?
 >
 > As far as I know, multiple interpreters in one process is
 > not really supported. There *seems* to be partial support for
 > it in the code, but there is no way to fully isolate them
 > from each other.

That's not good to hear.

Is there anything confirming that it's an incomplete API insofar as 
multiple interpreters are concerned? Wouldn't this carry consequences 
for say mod_wsgi, which also does this?

 > Why do you think you need multiple interpreters, as opposed
 > to one interpreter with multiple threads? If you're trying
 > to sandbox the threads from each other and/or from the rest
 > of the system, be aware that it's extremely difficult to
 > securely sandbox Python code. You'd be much safer to run
 > each one in its own process and rely on OS-level protections.

To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal chance 
of inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst allowing 
each script the ability to stall on conditions that will be later met by 
another thread supplying the information, and to fit in with existing 
infrastructure.

 >> - I don't need to share objects between interpreters (if it is even
 >> possible- I don't know).
 >
 > The hard part is *not* sharing objects between interpreters.
 > If nothing else, all the builtin type objects, constants, etc.
 > will be shared.

I understand. To clarify: I do not need to pass any Python objects I 
create or receive back and forth between different interpreters. I can 
imagine some environments would not react well to this.

Cheers,
Garth



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 03:33:19 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:33:19 +1100
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Garthy
<garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi Chris (and Michael),

Hehe. People often say that to me IRL, addressing me and my brother.
But he isn't on python-list, so you clearly mean Michael Torrie, yet
my brain still automatically thought you were addressing Michael
Angelico :)

> To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal chance of
> inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst allowing each
> script the ability to stall on conditions that will be later met by another
> thread supplying the information, and to fit in with existing
> infrastructure.

Are the scripts written cooperatively, or must you isolate one from
another? If you need to isolate them for trust reasons, then there's
only one solution, and that's separate processes with completely
separate interpreters. But if you're prepared to accept that one
thread of execution is capable of mangling another's state, things are
a lot easier. You can protect against *inadvertent* interaction much
more easily than malicious interference. It may be that you can get
away with simply running multiple threads in one interpreter;
obviously that would have problems if you need more than one CPU core
between them all (hello GIL), but that would really be your first
limit. One thread could fiddle with __builtins__ or a standard module
and thus harass another thread, but you would know if that's what's
going on.

ChrisA


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 04:35:17 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:05:17 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A19A55.1000901@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Chris,

On 06/12/13 19:03, Chris Angelico wrote:
 > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Garthy
 > <garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com>  wrote:
 >> Hi Chris (and Michael),
 >
 > Hehe. People often say that to me IRL, addressing me and my brother.
 > But he isn't on python-list, so you clearly mean Michael Torrie, yet
 > my brain still automatically thought you were addressing Michael
 > Angelico :)

These strange coincidences happen from time to time- it's entertaining 
when they do. :)

 >> To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal 
chance of
 >> inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst allowing each
 >> script the ability to stall on conditions that will be later met by 
another
 >> thread supplying the information, and to fit in with existing
 >> infrastructure.
 >
 > Are the scripts written cooperatively, or must you isolate one from
 > another? If you need to isolate them for trust reasons, then there's
 > only one solution, and that's separate processes with completely
 > separate interpreters. But if you're prepared to accept that one
 > thread of execution is capable of mangling another's state, things are
 > a lot easier. You can protect against *inadvertent* interaction much
 > more easily than malicious interference. It may be that you can get
 > away with simply running multiple threads in one interpreter;
 > obviously that would have problems if you need more than one CPU core
 > between them all (hello GIL), but that would really be your first
 > limit. One thread could fiddle with __builtins__ or a standard module
 > and thus harass another thread, but you would know if that's what's
 > going on.

I think the ideal is completely sandboxed, but it's something that I 
understand I may need to make compromises on. The bare minimum would be 
protection against inadvertent interaction. Better yet would be a setup 
that made such interaction annoyingly difficult, and the ideal would be 
where it was impossible to interfere. My approaching this problem with 
interpreters was based on an assumption that it might provide a 
reasonable level of isolation- perhaps not ideal, but hopefully good enough.

The closest analogy for understanding would be browser plugins: Scripts 
from multiple authors who for the most part aren't looking to create 
deliberate incompatibilities or interference between plugins. The 
isolation is basic, and some effort is made to make sure that one plugin 
can't cripple another trivially, but the protection is not exhaustive.

Strangely enough, the GIL restriction isn't a big one in this case. For 
the application, the common case is actually one script running at a 
time, with other scripts waiting or not running at that time. They do 
sometimes overlap, but this isn't the common case. If it turned out that 
only one script could be progressing at a time, it's an annoyance but 
not a deal-breaker. If it's suboptimal (as seems to be the case), then 
it's actually not a major issue.

With the single interpreter and multiple thread approach suggested, do 
you know if this will work with threads created externally to Python, 
ie. if I can create a thread in my application as normal, and then call 
something like PyGILState_Ensure() to make sure that Python has the 
internals it needs to work with it, and then use the GIL (or similar) to 
ensure that accesses to it remain thread-safe? If the answer is yes I 
can integrate such a thing more easily as an experiment. If it requires 
calling a dedicated "control" script that feeds out threads then it 
would need a fair bit more mucking about to integrate- I'd like to avoid 
this if possible.

Cheers,
Garth


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 06:57:12 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 22:57:12 +1100
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A19A55.1000901@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A19A55.1000901@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq_URsPZiAdGECO5toBD-fXNUp54Stq+pTidrQAfLXhqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Garthy
<garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com> wrote:
> I think the ideal is completely sandboxed, but it's something that I
> understand I may need to make compromises on. The bare minimum would be
> protection against inadvertent interaction. Better yet would be a setup that
> made such interaction annoyingly difficult, and the ideal would be where it
> was impossible to interfere.

In Python, "impossible to interfere" is a pipe dream. There's no way
to stop Python from fiddling around with the file system, and if
ctypes is available, with memory in the running program. The only way
to engineer that kind of protection is to prevent _the whole process_
from doing those things (using OS features, not Python features),
hence the need to split the code out into another process (which might
be chrooted, might be running as a user with no privileges, etc).

A setup that makes such interaction "annoyingly difficult" is possible
as long as your users don't think Ruby. For instance:

# script1.py
import sys
sys.stdout = open("logfile", "w")
while True: print("Blah blah")

# script2.py
import sys
sys.stdout = open("otherlogfile", "w")
while True: print("Bleh bleh")


These two scripts won't play nicely together, because each has
modified global state in a different module. So you'd have to set that
as a rule. (For this specific example, you probably want to capture
stdout/stderr to some sort of global log file anyway, and/or use the
logging module, but it makes a simple example.) Most Python scripts
aren't going to do this sort of thing, or if they do, will do very
little of it. Monkey-patching other people's code is a VERY rare thing
in Python.

> The closest analogy for understanding would be browser plugins: Scripts from
> multiple authors who for the most part aren't looking to create deliberate
> incompatibilities or interference between plugins. The isolation is basic,
> and some effort is made to make sure that one plugin can't cripple another
> trivially, but the protection is not exhaustive.

Browser plugins probably need a lot more protection - maybe it's not
exhaustive, but any time someone finds a way for one plugin to affect
another, the plugin / browser authors are going to treat it as a bug.
If I understand you, though, this is more akin to having two forms on
one page and having JS validation code for each. It's trivially easy
for one to check the other's form objects, but quite simple to avoid
too, so for the sake of encapsulation you simply stay safe.

> With the single interpreter and multiple thread approach suggested, do you
> know if this will work with threads created externally to Python, ie. if I
> can create a thread in my application as normal, and then call something
> like PyGILState_Ensure() to make sure that Python has the internals it needs
> to work with it, and then use the GIL (or similar) to ensure that accesses
> to it remain thread-safe?

Now that's something I can't help with. The only time I embedded
Python seriously was a one-Python-per-process system (arbitrary number
of processes fork()ed from one master, but each process had exactly
one Python environment and exactly one database connection, etc), and
I ended up being unable to make it secure, so I had to switch to
embedding ECMAScript (V8, specifically, as it happens... I'm morbidly
curious what my boss plans to do, now that he's fired me; he hinted at
rewriting the C++ engine in PHP, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall
as he tries to test a PHP extension for V8 and figure out whether or
not he can trust arbitrary third-party compiled code). But there'll be
someone on this list who's done threads and embedded Python.

ChrisA


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 08:56:01 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 00:26:01 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq_URsPZiAdGECO5toBD-fXNUp54Stq+pTidrQAfLXhqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A19A55.1000901@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq_URsPZiAdGECO5toBD-fXNUp54Stq+pTidrQAfLXhqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A1D771.2030109@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Chris,

On 06/12/13 22:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
 > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Garthy
 > <garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com>  wrote:
 >> I think the ideal is completely sandboxed, but it's something that I
 >> understand I may need to make compromises on. The bare minimum would be
 >> protection against inadvertent interaction. Better yet would be a 
setup that
 >> made such interaction annoyingly difficult, and the ideal would be 
where it
 >> was impossible to interfere.
 >
 > In Python, "impossible to interfere" is a pipe dream. There's no way
 > to stop Python from fiddling around with the file system, and if
 > ctypes is available, with memory in the running program. The only way
 > to engineer that kind of protection is to prevent _the whole process_
 > from doing those things (using OS features, not Python features),
 > hence the need to split the code out into another process (which might
 > be chrooted, might be running as a user with no privileges, etc).

Absolutely- it would be an impractical ideal. If it was my highest and 
only priority, CPython might not be the best place to start. But there 
are plenty of other factors that make Python very desirable to use 
regardless. :) Re file and ctype-style functionality, that is something 
I'm going to have to find a way to limit somewhat. But first things 
first: I need to see what I can accomplish re initial embedding with a 
reasonable amount of work.

 > A setup that makes such interaction "annoyingly difficult" is possible
 > as long as your users don't think Ruby. For instance:
 >
 > # script1.py
 > import sys
 > sys.stdout = open("logfile", "w")
 > while True: print("Blah blah")
 >
 > # script2.py
 > import sys
 > sys.stdout = open("otherlogfile", "w")
 > while True: print("Bleh bleh")
 >
 >
 > These two scripts won't play nicely together, because each has
 > modified global state in a different module. So you'd have to set that
 > as a rule. (For this specific example, you probably want to capture
 > stdout/stderr to some sort of global log file anyway, and/or use the
 > logging module, but it makes a simple example.)

Thanks for the example. Hopefully I can minimise the cases where this 
would potentially be a problem. Modifying the basic environment and the 
source is something I can do readily if needed.

Re stdout/stderr, on that subject I actually wrote a replacement log 
catcher for embedded Python a few years back. I can't remember how on 
earth I did it now, but I've still got the code that did it somewhere.

 > Most Python scripts
 > aren't going to do this sort of thing, or if they do, will do very
 > little of it. Monkey-patching other people's code is a VERY rare thing
 > in Python.

That's good to hear. :)

 >> The closest analogy for understanding would be browser plugins: 
Scripts from
 >> multiple authors who for the most part aren't looking to create 
deliberate
 >> incompatibilities or interference between plugins. The isolation is 
basic,
 >> and some effort is made to make sure that one plugin can't cripple 
another
 >> trivially, but the protection is not exhaustive.
 >
 > Browser plugins probably need a lot more protection - maybe it's not
 > exhaustive, but any time someone finds a way for one plugin to affect
 > another, the plugin / browser authors are going to treat it as a bug.
 > If I understand you, though, this is more akin to having two forms on
 > one page and having JS validation code for each. It's trivially easy
 > for one to check the other's form objects, but quite simple to avoid
 > too, so for the sake of encapsulation you simply stay safe.

There have been cases where browser plugins have played funny games to 
mess with the behaviour of other plugins (eg. one plugin removing 
entries from the configuration of another). It's certainly not ideal, 
but it comes from the environment being not entirely locked down, and 
one plugin author being inclined enough to make destructive changes that 
impact another. I think the right effort/reward ratio will mean I end up 
in a similar place.

I know it's not the best analogy, but it was one that readily came to 
mind. :)

 >> With the single interpreter and multiple thread approach suggested, 
do you
 >> know if this will work with threads created externally to Python, 
ie. if I
 >> can create a thread in my application as normal, and then call something
 >> like PyGILState_Ensure() to make sure that Python has the internals 
it needs
 >> to work with it, and then use the GIL (or similar) to ensure that 
accesses
 >> to it remain thread-safe?
 >
 > Now that's something I can't help with. The only time I embedded
 > Python seriously was a one-Python-per-process system (arbitrary number
 > of processes fork()ed from one master, but each process had exactly
 > one Python environment and exactly one database connection, etc), and
 > I ended up being unable to make it secure, so I had to switch to
 > embedding ECMAScript (V8, specifically, as it happens... I'm morbidly
 > curious what my boss plans to do, now that he's fired me; he hinted at
 > rewriting the C++ engine in PHP, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall
 > as he tries to test a PHP extension for V8 and figure out whether or
 > not he can trust arbitrary third-party compiled code). But there'll be
 > someone on this list who's done threads and embedded Python.

Thanks in any case. I'm guessing someone with the right inclination and 
experience might see the question and jump in with their thoughts.

Many thanks for your continued thoughts by the way. :)

Cheers,
Garth

PS. As a dev with a heavy C++ background, I also wonder at the type of 
C++ engine that could be improved with a PHP rewrite. ;)


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec  6 17:23:24 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:23:24 +1300
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3635.1386324216.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3635.1386324216.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bgf12uF5qjqU1@mid.individual.net>

Garthy wrote:

> The bare minimum would be 
> protection against inadvertent interaction. Better yet would be a setup 
> that made such interaction annoyingly difficult, and the ideal would be 
> where it was impossible to interfere.

To give you an idea of the kind of interference that's
possible, consider:

1) You can find all the subclasses of a given class
object using its __subclasses__() method.

2) Every class ultimately derives from class object.

3) All built-in class objects are shared between
interpreters.

So, starting from object.__subclasses__(), code in any
interpreter could find any class defined by any other
interpreter and mutate it.

This is not something that is likely to happen by
accident. Whether it's "annoyingly difficult" enough
is something you'll have to decide.

Also keep in mind that it's fairly easy for Python
code to chew up large amounts of memory and/or CPU
time in an uninterruptible way, e.g. by
evaluating 5**100000000. So even a thread that's
keeping its hands entirely to itself can still
cause trouble.

-- 
Greg


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 19:31:37 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:01:37 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <bgf12uF5qjqU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A183F8.7000807@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmq2udX39gxCLjfNWGyeTzMAsHJDHOwXHojNM7Yq18OH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3635.1386324216.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgf12uF5qjqU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52A26C69.5050209@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Gregory,

On 07/12/13 08:53, Gregory Ewing wrote:
 > Garthy wrote:
 >> The bare minimum would be protection against inadvertent interaction.
 >> Better yet would be a setup that made such interaction annoyingly
 >> difficult, and the ideal would be where it was impossible to interfere.
 >
 > To give you an idea of the kind of interference that's
 > possible, consider:
 >
 > 1) You can find all the subclasses of a given class
 > object using its __subclasses__() method.
 >
 > 2) Every class ultimately derives from class object.
 >
 > 3) All built-in class objects are shared between
 > interpreters.
 >
 > So, starting from object.__subclasses__(), code in any
 > interpreter could find any class defined by any other
 > interpreter and mutate it.

Many thanks for the excellent example. It was not clear to me how 
readily such a small and critical bit of shared state could potentially 
be abused across interpreter boundaries. I am guessing this would be the 
first in a chain of potential problems I may run into.

 > This is not something that is likely to happen by
 > accident. Whether it's "annoyingly difficult" enough
 > is something you'll have to decide.

I think it'd fall under "protection against inadvertent modification"- 
down the scale somewhat. It doesn't sound like it would be too difficult 
to achieve if the author was so inclined.

 > Also keep in mind that it's fairly easy for Python
 > code to chew up large amounts of memory and/or CPU
 > time in an uninterruptible way, e.g. by
 > evaluating 5**100000000. So even a thread that's
 > keeping its hands entirely to itself can still
 > cause trouble.

Thanks for the tip. The potential for deliberate resource exhaustion is 
unfortunately something that I am likely going to have to put up with in 
order to keep things in the same process.

Cheers,
Garth


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 03:21:56 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 18:51:56 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Gregory,

On 06/12/13 17:28, Gregory Ewing wrote:
 > Garthy wrote:
 >> I am running into problems when using multiple interpreters [1] and I
 >> am presently trying to track down these issues. Can anyone familiar
 >> with the process of embedding multiple interpreters have a skim of the
 >> details below and let me know of any obvious problems?
 >
 > As far as I know, multiple interpreters in one process is
 > not really supported. There *seems* to be partial support for
 > it in the code, but there is no way to fully isolate them
 > from each other.

That's not good to hear.

Is there anything confirming that it's an incomplete API insofar as 
multiple interpreters are concerned? Wouldn't this carry consequences 
for say mod_wsgi, which also does this?

 > Why do you think you need multiple interpreters, as opposed
 > to one interpreter with multiple threads? If you're trying
 > to sandbox the threads from each other and/or from the rest
 > of the system, be aware that it's extremely difficult to
 > securely sandbox Python code. You'd be much safer to run
 > each one in its own process and rely on OS-level protections.

To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal chance 
of inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst allowing 
each script the ability to stall on conditions that will be later met by 
another thread supplying the information, and to fit in with existing 
infrastructure.

 >> - I don't need to share objects between interpreters (if it is even
 >> possible- I don't know).
 >
 > The hard part is *not* sharing objects between interpreters.
 > If nothing else, all the builtin type objects, constants, etc.
 > will be shared.

I understand. To clarify: I do not need to pass any Python objects I 
create or receive back and forth between different interpreters. I can 
imagine some environments would not react well to this.

Cheers,
Garth

PS. Apologies if any of these messages come through more than once. Most 
lists that I've posted to set reply-to meaning a normal reply can be 
used, but python-list does not seem to. The replies I have sent manually 
to python-list at python.org instead don't seem to have appeared. I'm not 
quite sure what is happening- apologies for any blundering around on my 
part trying to figure it out.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 04:27:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:27:43 +1100
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Garthy
<garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com> wrote:
> PS. Apologies if any of these messages come through more than once. Most
> lists that I've posted to set reply-to meaning a normal reply can be used,
> but python-list does not seem to. The replies I have sent manually to
> python-list at python.org instead don't seem to have appeared. I'm not quite
> sure what is happening- apologies for any blundering around on my part
> trying to figure it out.

They are coming through more than once. If you're subscribed to the
list, sending to python-list at python.org should be all you need to do -
where else are they going?

ChrisA


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 04:44:33 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:14:33 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A19C81.1050806@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Chris,

On 06/12/13 19:57, Chris Angelico wrote:
 > On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Garthy
 > <garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com>  wrote:
 >> PS. Apologies if any of these messages come through more than once. Most
 >> lists that I've posted to set reply-to meaning a normal reply can be 
used,
 >> but python-list does not seem to. The replies I have sent manually to
 >> python-list at python.org instead don't seem to have appeared. I'm not 
quite
 >> sure what is happening- apologies for any blundering around on my part
 >> trying to figure it out.
 >
 > They are coming through more than once. If you're subscribed to the
 > list, sending to python-list at python.org should be all you need to do -
 > where else are they going?

I think I've got myself sorted out now. The mailing list settings are a 
bit different from what I am used to and I just need to reply to 
messages differently than I normally do.

First attempt for three emails each went to the wrong place, second 
attempt for each appeared to have disappeared into the ether and I 
assumed non-delivery, but I was incorrect and they all actually arrived 
along with my third attempt at each.

Apologies to all for the inadvertent noise.

Cheers,
Garth


From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Fri Dec  6 05:17:21 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:17:21 +0000
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A1A431.3020005@timgolden.me.uk>

On 06/12/2013 09:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Garthy
> <garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com> wrote:
>> PS. Apologies if any of these messages come through more than once. Most
>> lists that I've posted to set reply-to meaning a normal reply can be used,
>> but python-list does not seem to. The replies I have sent manually to
>> python-list at python.org instead don't seem to have appeared. I'm not quite
>> sure what is happening- apologies for any blundering around on my part
>> trying to figure it out.
> 
> They are coming through more than once. If you're subscribed to the
> list, sending to python-list at python.org should be all you need to do -
> where else are they going?


I released a batch from the moderation queue from Garthy first thing
this [my] morning -- ie about 1.5 hours ago. I'm afraid I didn't check
first as to whether they'd already got through to the list some other way.

TJG




From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 09:04:20 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 00:34:20 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A1A431.3020005@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net> <52A18924.3080101@entropicsoftware.com>
 <CAPTjJmoy4ALnXC+231q-raNWCxvRAK1rUH19eNNRGo6FgswFyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A1A431.3020005@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <52A1D964.5000207@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Tim,

On 06/12/13 20:47, Tim Golden wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 09:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Garthy
>> <garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com>  wrote:
>>> PS. Apologies if any of these messages come through more than once. Most
>>> lists that I've posted to set reply-to meaning a normal reply can be used,
>>> but python-list does not seem to. The replies I have sent manually to
>>> python-list at python.org instead don't seem to have appeared. I'm not quite
>>> sure what is happening- apologies for any blundering around on my part
>>> trying to figure it out.
>>
>> They are coming through more than once. If you're subscribed to the
>> list, sending to python-list at python.org should be all you need to do -
>> where else are they going?
>
>
> I released a batch from the moderation queue from Garthy first thing
> this [my] morning -- ie about 1.5 hours ago. I'm afraid I didn't check
> first as to whether they'd already got through to the list some other way.

I had to make a call between re-sending posts that might have gone 
missing, or seemingly not responding promptly when people had taken the 
time to answer my complex query. I made a call to re-send, and it was 
the wrong one. The fault for the double-posting is entirely mine.

Cheers,
Garth


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec  6 17:09:11 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:09:11 +1300
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3626.1386318160.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3626.1386318160.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bgf089F5l7tU1@mid.individual.net>

Garthy wrote:
> To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal chance 
> of inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst allowing 
> each script the ability to stall on conditions that will be later met by 
> another thread supplying the information, and to fit in with existing 
> infrastructure.

The last time I remember this being discussed was in the context
of allowing free threading. Multiple interpreters don't solve
that problem, because there's still only one GIL and some
objects are shared.

But if all you want is for each plugin to have its own version
of sys.modules, etc., and you're not concerned about malicious
code, then it may be good enough.

It seems to be good enough for mod_wsgi, because presumably
all the people with the ability to install code on a given
web server trust each other.

-- 
Greg


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 19:57:47 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:27:47 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <bgf089F5l7tU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3620.1386298086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgdat9FouohU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3626.1386318160.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bgf089F5l7tU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52A2728B.1020703@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi Gregory,

On 07/12/13 08:39, Gregory Ewing wrote:
 > Garthy wrote:
 >> To allow each script to run in its own environment, with minimal
 >> chance of inadvertent interaction between the environments, whilst
 >> allowing each script the ability to stall on conditions that will be
 >> later met by another thread supplying the information, and to fit in
 >> with existing infrastructure.
 >
 > The last time I remember this being discussed was in the context
 > of allowing free threading. Multiple interpreters don't solve
 > that problem, because there's still only one GIL and some
 > objects are shared.

I am fortunate in my case as the normal impact of the GIL would be much 
reduced. The common case is only one script actively progressing at a 
time- with the others either not running or waiting for external input 
to continue.

But as you point out in your other reply, there are still potential 
concerns that arise from the smaller set of shared objects even across 
interpreters.

 > But if all you want is for each plugin to have its own version
 > of sys.modules, etc., and you're not concerned about malicious
 > code, then it may be good enough.

I wouldn't say that I wasn't concerned about it entirely, but on the 
other hand it is not a hard requirement to which all other concerns are 
secondary.

Cheers,
Garth


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Fri Dec  6 03:17:19 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 18:47:19 +1030
Subject: Embedding multiple interpreters
In-Reply-To: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A137B3.7010408@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52A1880F.8010509@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi all,

A small update here:

On 06/12/13 13:04, Garthy wrote:
 > [1] It presently crashes in Py_EndInterpreter() after running through a
 > series of tests during the shutdown of the 32nd interpreter I create. I
 > don't know if this is significant, but the tests pass for the first 31
 > interpreters.

This turned out to be a red herring, so please ignore this bit. I had a 
code path that failed to call Py_INCREF on Py_None which was held in a 
PyObject that was later Py_DECREF'd. This had some interesting 
consequences, and not surprisingly led to some double-frees. ;)

I was able to get much further with this fix, although I'm still having 
some trouble getting multiple interpreters running together 
simultaneously. Advice and thoughts still very much welcomed on the rest 
of the email. :)

Cheers,
Garth


From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 03:47:54 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 00:47:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
Message-ID: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST

The code will be used to continuously analyze sonar sensor data. I set this up to calculate all coordinates in a sonar cone without heavy use of trigonometry (assuming that this way is faster in the end).

I optimized as much as I could. Maybe one of you has another bright idea to squeeze out a bit more?

Thanks
Robert


From jeremy at jeremysanders.net  Fri Dec  6 04:46:46 2013
From: jeremy at jeremysanders.net (Jeremy Sanders)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:46:46 +0100
Subject: squeeze out some performance
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>

Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:

> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link
> below. http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
> 
> The code will be used to continuously analyze sonar sensor data. I set
> this up to calculate all coordinates in a sonar cone without heavy use of
> trigonometry (assuming that this way is faster in the end).
> 
> I optimized as much as I could. Maybe one of you has another bright idea
> to squeeze out a bit more?

This sort of code is probably harder to make faster in pure python. You 
could try profiling it to see where the hot spots are. Perhaps the choice of 
arrays or sets might have some speed impact.

One idea would be to use something like cython to compile your python code 
to an extension module, with some hints to the types of the various values.

I would go down the geometry route. If you can restate your problem in terms 
of geometry, it might be possible to replace all that code with a few numpy 
array operations.

e.g. for finding pixels in a circle of radius 50
import numpy as np
radiussqd = np.fromfunction(lambda y,x: (y-50)**2+(x-50)**2, (100,100) )
all_y, all_x = np.indices((100,100))
yvals = all_y[radiussqd < 50**2]

Jeremy




From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 07:13:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 23:13:34 +1100
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq2UpkirqhH62n9XMk5MTAqYWPQDaRpyQhTiVLBpZpPBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Jeremy Sanders <jeremy at jeremysanders.net> wrote:
> This sort of code is probably harder to make faster in pure python. You
> could try profiling it to see where the hot spots are. Perhaps the choice of
> arrays or sets might have some speed impact.

I'd make this recommendation MUCH stronger.

Rule 1 of optimization: Don't.
Rule 2 (for experts only): Don't yet.

Once you find that your program actually is running too slowly, then
AND ONLY THEN do you start looking at tightening something up. You'll
be amazed how little you need to change; start with good clean
idiomatic code, and then if it takes too long, you tweak just a couple
of things and it's fast enough. And when you do come to the
tweaking...

Rule 3: Measure twice, cut once.
Rule 4: Actually, measure twenty times, cut once.

Profile your code to find out what's actually slow. This is very
important. Here's an example from a real application (not in Python,
it's in a semantically-similar language called Pike):

https://github.com/Rosuav/Gypsum/blob/d9907e1507c52189c83ae25f5d7be85235b616fa/window.pike

I noticed that I could saturate one CPU core by typing commands very
quickly. Okay. That gets us past the first two rules (it's a MUD
client, it should not be able to saturate one core of an i5). The code
looks roughly like this:

paint():
    for line in lines:
        if line_is_visible:
            paint_line(line)

paint_line():
    for piece_of_text in text:
        if highlighted: draw_highlighted()
        else: draw_not_highlighted()

My first guess was that the actual drawing was taking the time, since
that's a whole lot of GTK calls. But no; the actual problem was the
iteration across all lines and then finding out if they're visible or
not (possibly because it obliterates the CPU caches). Once the
scrollback got to a million lines or so, that was prohibitively
expensive. I didn't realize that until I actually profiled the code
and _measured_ where the time was being spent.

How fast does your code run? How fast do you need it to run? Lots of
optimization questions are answered by "Yaknow what, it don't even
matter", unless you're running in a tight loop, or on a
microcontroller, or something. Halving the time taken sounds great
until you see that it's currently taking 0.0001 seconds and happens in
response to user action.

ChrisA


From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 11:29:30 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:29:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3642.1386332017.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3642.1386332017.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <35814163-d0a5-4927-b61d-7d3b4ee0989b@googlegroups.com>

Thanks for your replies.

I already did some basic profiling and optimized a lot. Especially with help of a goof python performance tips list I found.

I think I'll follow the cython path.
The geometry approach also sound good. But it's way above my math/geometry knowledge.

Thanks for your input!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 11:36:03 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 16:36:03 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <35814163-d0a5-4927-b61d-7d3b4ee0989b@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3642.1386332017.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <35814163-d0a5-4927-b61d-7d3b4ee0989b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7sudd$tgh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 16:29, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> Thanks for your replies.
>
> I already did some basic profiling and optimized a lot. Especially  > with help of a goof python performance tips list I found.
>

Wonderful typo -----^ :)

> I think I'll follow the cython path.
> The geometry approach also sound good. But it's way above my math/geometry knowledge.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 11:44:38 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:44:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3656.1386347783.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <l7s6co$pmh$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3642.1386332017.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <35814163-d0a5-4927-b61d-7d3b4ee0989b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3656.1386347783.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dae19b90-f141-422f-b5fb-bd2631944fe5@googlegroups.com>

Am Freitag, 6. Dezember 2013 17:36:03 UTC+1 schrieb Mark Lawrence:

> > I already did some basic profiling and optimized a lot. Especially  > with help of a goof python performance tips list I found.
> 
> Wonderful typo -----^ :)
> 

Oh well :-) ... it was a good one. Just had a quick look at Cython. Looks great. Thanks for the tip.


From john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  6 11:52:47 2013
From: john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net (John Ladasky)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:52:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
 
> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST

Several comments:

1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because there's a whole LOT of duplicated code.  Look at lines 53-80, and lines 108-287, and lines 294-311.  It makes it harder to see what this algorithm actually does.  Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some shared function calls?

2) I looked up the "Bresenham algorithm", and found two references which may be relevant.  The original algorithm was one which computed good raster approximations to straight lines.  The second algorithm described may be more pertinent to you, because it draws arcs of circles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bresenham's_line_algorithm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midpoint_circle_algorithm

Both of these algorithms are old, from the 1960's, and can be implemented using very simple CPU register operations and minimal memory.  Both of the web pages I referenced have extensive example code and pseudocode, and discuss optimization.  If you need speed, is this really a job for Python?

3) I THINK that I see some code -- those duplicated parts -- which might benefit from the use of multiprocessing (assuming that you have a multi-core CPU).  But I would have to read more deeply to be sure.  I need to understand the algorithm more completely, and exactly how you have modified it for your needs.


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 17:07:56 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 17:07:56 -0500
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wyt_7VyO+yFO9eVDUnqJAxr5fa9rAONQHCbFgzkbJdhw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:52 AM, John Ladasky <john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>
> > I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link
> below.
> > http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
>

Not that this will speed up your code but you have this:

    if not clockwise:
        s = start
        start = end
        end = s

Python people would write:
    end, start = start, end


You have quite a few if statements that involve multiple comparisons of the
same variable.  Did you know you can do things like this in python:

>>> x = 4
>>> 2 < x < 7
True
>>> x = 55
>>> 2 < x < 7
False


> Several comments:
>
> 1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because
> there's a whole LOT of duplicated code.  Look at lines 53-80, and lines
> 108-287, and lines 294-311.  It makes it harder to see what this algorithm
> actually does.  Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some
> shared function calls?
>
> 2) I looked up the "Bresenham algorithm", and found two references which
> may be relevant.  The original algorithm was one which computed good raster
> approximations to straight lines.  The second algorithm described may be
> more pertinent to you, because it draws arcs of circles.
>
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bresenham's_line_algorithm
>     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midpoint_circle_algorithm
>
> Both of these algorithms are old, from the 1960's, and can be implemented
> using very simple CPU register operations and minimal memory.  Both of the
> web pages I referenced have extensive example code and pseudocode, and
> discuss optimization.  If you need speed, is this really a job for Python?
>
> 3) I THINK that I see some code -- those duplicated parts -- which might
> benefit from the use of multiprocessing (assuming that you have a
> multi-core CPU).  But I would have to read more deeply to be sure.  I need
> to understand the algorithm more completely, and exactly how you have
> modified it for your needs.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Dec  9 10:54:36 2013
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:54:36 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+wyt_7VyO+yFO9eVDUnqJAxr5fa9rAONQHCbFgzkbJdhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPM-O+wyt_7VyO+yFO9eVDUnqJAxr5fa9rAONQHCbFgzkbJdhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A5E7BC.5090600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

On 06/12/2013 22:07, Joel Goldstick wrote:
..........
>>
>
> Not that this will speed up your code but you have this:
>
>      if not clockwise:
>          s = start
>          start = end
>          end = s
>
> Python people would write:
>      end, start = start, end

this works for some small number of variables, but on my machine with python 2.7 
I start losing with 4 variables eg

> C:\code\optichrome\74663>python -mtimeit -s"a=1;b=2;c=3;d=4" "a,b,c,d=b,c,d,a"
> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.206 usec per loop
>
> C:\code\optichrome\74663>python -mtimeit -s"a=1;b=2;c=3;d=4" "t=a;a=b;b=c;c=d;d=t"
> 10000000 loops, best of 3: 0.118 usec per loop


It doesn't seem to make much difference that the variables are related as I see 
a similar behaviour for simple assignments

> C:\code\optichrome\74663>python -mtimeit -s"a=1;b=2;c=3;d=4;e=5;f=6;g=7;h=8" "a,b,c,d=e,f,g,h"
> 1000000 loops, best of 3: 0.204 usec per loop
>
> C:\code\optichrome\74663>python -mtimeit -s"a=1;b=2;c=3;d=4;e=5;f=6;g=7;h=8" "a=e;b=f;c=g;d=h"
> 10000000 loops, best of 3: 0.103 usec per loop

for less than 4 variables the tuple method is faster.
-- 
Robin Becker



From davea at davea.name  Mon Dec  9 15:46:16 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:46:16 -0500
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <52A5E7BC.5090600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPM-O+wyt_7VyO+yFO9eVDUnqJAxr5fa9rAONQHCbFgzkbJdhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A5E7BC.5090600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.2469747325533878265@news.gmane.org>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:54:36 +0000, Robin Becker 
<robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
> On 06/12/2013 22:07, Joel Goldstick wrote:
> >      end, start = start, end

> a similar behaviour for simple assignments

> for less than 4 variables the tuple method is faster.

What does speed have to do with it?  When you want to swap two 
variables,  the tuple assignment reads better.

-- 
DaveA



From robin at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 10 07:54:13 2013
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:54:13 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.2469747325533878265@news.gmane.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPM-O+wyt_7VyO+yFO9eVDUnqJAxr5fa9rAONQHCbFgzkbJdhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A5E7BC.5090600@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>
 <almarsoft.2469747325533878265@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52A70EF5.1040008@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

On 09/12/2013 20:46, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:54:36 +0000, Robin Becker <robin at reportlab.com> wrote:
>> On 06/12/2013 22:07, Joel Goldstick wrote:
>> >      end, start = start, end
>
>> a similar behaviour for simple assignments
>
>> for less than 4 variables the tuple method is faster.
>
> What does speed have to do with it?  When you want to swap two variables,  the
> tuple assignment reads better.
>
Well the OP is asking about performance so I guess the look and feel might be 
sacrificed for speed in some circumstances.

The tuple approach is more appealing when the lhs & rhs are connected, but it 
seems that even for more general assignments the tuple assignment may be faster 
for small numbers of variables. Looking at the output of dis for this case

d,e,f=c,b,a

it seems that we get code like this
LOAD_NAME                3 (c)
LOAD_NAME                2 (b)
LOAD_NAME                1 (a)
ROT_THREE
ROT_TWO
STORE_NAME               4 (d)
STORE_NAME               5 (e)
STORE_NAME               6 (f)



for

d = c
e = b
f = a

we get this
LOAD_NAME                3 (c)
STORE_NAME               4 (d)
LOAD_NAME                2 (b)
STORE_NAME               5 (e)
LOAD_NAME                1 (a)
STORE_NAME               6 (f)

which is not obviously slower, but I consistently get the former to be faster. I 
suppose it's a cache issue or something. However, for this particular case when 
the variables are not connected I find the tuple assignment less pythonic, but 
perhaps faster (even though in this case no tuples are built).
-- 
Robin Becker



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 17:38:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:38:57 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7tjlr$i09$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 16:52, John Ladasky wrote:
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>
>> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
>> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
>
> Several comments:
>
> 1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because there's a whole LOT of duplicated code.  Look at lines 53-80, and lines 108-287, and lines 294-311.  It makes it harder to see what this algorithm actually does.  Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some shared function calls?
>

A handy tool for detecting duplicated code here 
http://clonedigger.sourceforge.net/ for anyone who's interested.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 18:01:49 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:01:49 -0800
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <l7tjlr$i09$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <l7tjlr$i09$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_o5G6g1K9AAEhjfBtP8Rz+UYygob=QybVd5WLS+agGHNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> On 06/12/2013 16:52, John Ladasky wrote:
>
>> On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>>
>>  I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link
>>> below.
>>> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
>>>
>>
>> Several comments:
>>
>> 1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because
>> there's a whole LOT of duplicated code.  Look at lines 53-80, and lines
>> 108-287, and lines 294-311.  It makes it harder to see what this algorithm
>> actually does.  Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some
>> shared function calls?
>>
>>
> A handy tool for detecting duplicated code here
> http://clonedigger.sourceforge.net/ for anyone who's interested.
>

Pylint does this too...
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From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 09:19:21 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 06:19:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3669.1386370917.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <l7tjlr$i09$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3669.1386370917.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5320aa30-8ea5-4680-8796-ef2c7dac3984@googlegroups.com>

Am Samstag, 7. Dezember 2013 00:01:49 UTC+1 schrieb Dan Stromberg:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Mark Lawrence <bream... at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 06/12/2013 16:52, John Ladasky wrote:
> 
> 
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
> 
> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Several comments:
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because there's a whole LOT of duplicated code. ?Look at lines 53-80, and lines 108-287, and lines 294-311. ?It makes it harder to see what this algorithm actually does. ?Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some shared function calls?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A handy tool for detecting duplicated code here http://clonedigger.sourceforge.net/ for anyone who's interested.
> 
> 
> 
> Pylint does this too...

Thanks again. I'll try to compress the code and have a look at the "multiple comparisons" topic.

Robert


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 09:52:54 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:52:54 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <5320aa30-8ea5-4680-8796-ef2c7dac3984@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <9df6ccd7-828d-43be-ac49-fe1c6a38bae7@googlegroups.com>
 <l7tjlr$i09$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3669.1386370917.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5320aa30-8ea5-4680-8796-ef2c7dac3984@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l84lfj$6pu$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 14:19, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> Am Samstag, 7. Dezember 2013 00:01:49 UTC+1 schrieb Dan Stromberg:
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Mark Lawrence <bream... at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 06/12/2013 16:52, John Ladasky wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Friday, December 6, 2013 12:47:54 AM UTC-8, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
>>
>> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Several comments:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) I find this program to be very difficult to read, largely because there's a whole LOT of duplicated code.  Look at lines 53-80, and lines 108-287, and lines 294-311.  It makes it harder to see what this algorithm actually does.  Is there a way to refactor some of this code to use some shared function calls?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A handy tool for detecting duplicated code here http://clonedigger.sourceforge.net/ for anyone who's interested.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pylint does this too...
>
> Thanks again. I'll try to compress the code and have a look at the "multiple comparisons" topic.
>
> Robert
>

Would you be kind enough to compress your messages while you're at it by 
reading and actioning https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython 
thanks, a quick glance above will tell you why :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 18:57:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 23:57:57 +0000
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l85le3$a5r$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 08:47, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I try to squeeze out some performance of the code pasted on the link below.
> http://pastebin.com/gMnqprST
>
> The code will be used to continuously analyze sonar sensor data. I set this up to calculate all coordinates in a sonar cone without heavy use of trigonometry (assuming that this way is faster in the end).
>
> I optimized as much as I could. Maybe one of you has another bright idea to squeeze out a bit more?
>
> Thanks
> Robert
>

Actually for optimised code it looks very similar to some code posted 
here 
http://www.daniweb.com/software-development/python/threads/321181/python-bresenham-circle-arc-algorithm 
over three years ago.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 07:14:39 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 04:14:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: squeeze out some performance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3803.1386633504.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <ce6477c1-29c0-43b3-9e56-336a5825869b@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3803.1386633504.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4162ca51-a334-471e-84c7-8478411d41f7@googlegroups.com>

> Actually for optimised code it looks very similar to some code posted 
> 
> here 
> 
> http://www.daniweb.com/software-development/python/threads/321181/python-bresenham-circle-arc-algorithm 
> 
> over three years ago.
> 

This is where it origins from. I just extended it for my needs and now want to optimize it.
List comprehensions instead of some for loops brought another 25%. And made the code shorter.


From info at egenix.com  Fri Dec  6 04:53:00 2013
From: info at egenix.com (eGenix Team: M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 10:53:00 +0100
Subject: ANN: eGenix PyRun - One file Python Runtime 1.3.1
Message-ID: <52A19E7C.1080007@egenix.com>

________________________________________________________________________

ANNOUNCING

                 eGenix PyRun - One file Python Runtime

                            Version 1.3.1


         An easy-to-use single file relocatable Python run-time -
           available for Linux, Mac OS X and Unix platforms,
              with support for Python 2.5, 2.6 and 2.7


This announcement is also available on our web-site for online reading:
http://www.egenix.com/company/news/eGenix-PyRun-1.3.0-GA.html

________________________________________________________________________

INTRODUCTION

Our new eGenix PyRun combines a Python interpreter with an almost
complete Python standard library into a single easy-to-use executable,
that does not require a system wide installation and is fully
relocatable.

eGenix PyRun's executable only needs 11MB, but still supports most
Python application and scripts - and it can be further compressed to
just 3-4MB using upx.

Compared to a regular Python installation of typically 100MB on disk,
this makes eGenix PyRun ideal for applications and scripts that need
to be distributed to many target machines, client installations or
customers.

It makes "installing" Python on a Unix based system as simple as
copying a single file.

We have been using the product internally in our mxODBC Connect Server
since 2008 with great success and have now extracted it into a
stand-alone open-source product.

We provide both the source archive to build your own eGenix PyRun, as
well as pre-compiled binaries for Linux, FreeBSD and Mac OS X, as 32-
and 64-bit versions. The binaries can be downloaded manually, or you
can let our automatic install script install-pyrun take care of the
installation: ./install-pyrun dir and you're done.

Please see the product page for more details:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/PyRun/

________________________________________________________________________

NEWS

This is a new minor release of eGenix PyRun, which comes with updates
to the latest Python releases and includes a number of compatibility
enhancements.

New Features
------------

 * Upgraded eGenix PyRun to work with and use Python 2.7.6 per
   default.

 * Upgraded eGenix PyRun to use Python 2.6.9 as default
   Python 2.6 version.

install-pyrun Quick Installation Enhancements
---------------------------------------------

Since version 1.1.0, eGenix PyRun includes a shell script called
install-pyrun, which greatly simplifies installation of eGenix
PyRun. It works much like the virtualenv shell script used for
creating new virtual environments (except that there's nothing virtual
about PyRun environments).

    https://downloads.egenix.com/python/install-pyrun

With the script, an eGenix PyRun installation is as simple as running:

    ./install-pyrun targetdir

We have updated this script since the last release:

 * install-pyrun now defaults to installing setuptools 1.4.2
   and pip 1.4.1 when looking for local downloads of these tools.

For a complete list of changes, please see the eGenix PyRun Changelog:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/PyRun/changelog.html

For a list of changes in the 1.3.0 minor release, please read the
eGenix PyRun 1.3.0 announcement:

    http://www.egenix.com/company/news/eGenix-PyRun-1.3.0-GA.html


Presentation at EuroPython 2012
-------------------------------

Marc-Andr? Lemburg, CEO of eGenix, gave a presentation about eGenix
PyRun at EuroPython 2012 last year. The talk video as well as the
slides are available on our website:

    http://www.egenix.com/library/presentations/EuroPython2012-eGenix-PyRun/


________________________________________________________________________

LICENSE

eGenix PyRun is distributed under the eGenix.com Public License 1.1.0
which is an Open Source license similar to the Python license. You can
use eGenix PyRun in both commercial and non-commercial settings
without fee or charge.

Please see our license page for more details:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/PyRun/license.html

The package comes with full source code.

________________________________________________________________________

DOWNLOADS

The download archives and instructions for installing eGenix PyRun can
be found at:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/PyRun/

As always, we are providing pre-built binaries for all common
platforms: Windows 32/64-bit, Linux 32/64-bit, FreeBSD 32/64-bit, Mac
OS X 32/64-bit. Source code archives are available for installation on
other platforms, such as Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.

_______________________________________________________________________

SUPPORT

Commercial support for this product is available from eGenix.com.
Please see

    http://www.egenix.com/services/support/

for details about our support offerings.

________________________________________________________________________

MORE INFORMATION

For more information about eGenix PyRun, licensing and download
instructions, please visit our web-site:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/PyRun/

About Python (http://www.python.org/):

    Python is an object-oriented Open Source programming language
    which runs on all modern platforms. By integrating ease-of-use,
    clarity in coding, enterprise application connectivity and rapid
    application design, Python establishes an ideal programming
    platform for today's IT challenges.

About eGenix (http://www.egenix.com/):

    eGenix is a software project, consulting and product company
    specializing in expert project services and professional quality
    products for companies, Python users and developers.

Enjoy,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 06 2013)
>>> Python Projects, Consulting and Support ...   http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

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    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 07:24:59 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 04:24:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of Tkinter
Message-ID: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>

I'm trying out Tkinter with the (non object oriented) code fragment below:
It works partially as I expected, but I thought that pressing "1" would
cause the program to quit, however I get this message:
TypeError: quit() takes no arguments (1 given), I tried changing quit to quit()
but that makes things even worse. So my question: can anyone here help me
debug this?

#!/usr/bin/env python
import Tkinter as tk
def quit():
    sys.exit()
root = tk.Tk()
label = tk.Label(root, text="Hello, world")
label.pack()
label.bind("<1>", quit)
root.mainloop()

p.s. I like the code not object orientated


From daniel at daniel-watkins.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 07:30:53 2013
From: daniel at daniel-watkins.co.uk (Daniel Watkins)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 12:30:53 +0000
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of
 Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>
References: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131206123053.GT22882@daniel-watkins.co.uk>

Hi Jean,

On Fri, Dec 06, 2013 at 04:24:59AM -0800, Jean Dubois wrote:
> I'm trying out Tkinter with the (non object oriented) code fragment below:
> It works partially as I expected, but I thought that pressing "1" would
> cause the program to quit, however I get this message:
> TypeError: quit() takes no arguments (1 given), I tried changing quit to quit()
> but that makes things even worse. So my question: can anyone here help me
> debug this?

I don't know the details of the Tkinter library, but you could find out
what quit is being passed by modifying it to take a single parameter and
printing it out (or using pdb):

    def quit(param):
        print(param)
        sys.exit()

Having taken a quick look at the documentation, it looks like event
handlers (like your quit function) are passed the event that triggered
them.  So you can probably just ignore the parameter:

    def quit(_):
        sys.exit()


Cheers,

Dan


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Fri Dec  6 07:33:05 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 13:33:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of
 Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <241214611.387563.1386333185901.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> I'm trying out Tkinter with the (non object oriented) code fragment
> below:
> It works partially as I expected, but I thought that pressing "1"
> would
> cause the program to quit, however I get this message:
> TypeError: quit() takes no arguments (1 given), I tried changing quit
> to quit()
> but that makes things even worse. So my question: can anyone here
> help me
> debug this?
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> import Tkinter as tk
> def quit():
>     sys.exit()
> root = tk.Tk()
> label = tk.Label(root, text="Hello, world")
> label.pack()
> label.bind("<1>", quit)
> root.mainloop()
> 
> p.s. I like the code not object orientated
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 

the engine is probably passing an argument to your quit callback method.

try  

def quit(param):
  sys.exit(str(param))

You probably don't even care about the parameter:

def quit(param):
  sys.exit()

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 08:12:01 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 05:12:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of
 Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3644.1386333508.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3644.1386333508.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b04cffb3-ad58-44c9-a441-13b8824f0c27@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 6 december 2013 13:30:53 UTC+1 schreef Daniel Watkins:
> Hi Jean,
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 06, 2013 at 04:24:59AM -0800, Jean Dubois wrote:
> 
> > I'm trying out Tkinter with the (non object oriented) code fragment below:
> 
> > It works partially as I expected, but I thought that pressing "1" would
> 
> > cause the program to quit, however I get this message:
> 
> > TypeError: quit() takes no arguments (1 given), I tried changing quit to quit()
> 
> > but that makes things even worse. So my question: can anyone here help me
> 
> > debug this?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know the details of the Tkinter library, but you could find out
> 
> what quit is being passed by modifying it to take a single parameter and
> 
> printing it out (or using pdb):
> 
> 
> 
>     def quit(param):
> 
>         print(param)
> 
>         sys.exit()
> 
> 
> 
> Having taken a quick look at the documentation, it looks like event
> 
> handlers (like your quit function) are passed the event that triggered
> 
> them.  So you can probably just ignore the parameter:
> 
> 
> 
>     def quit(_):
> 
>         sys.exit()
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> Dan

I tried out your suggestions and discovered that I had the line
import sys to the program. So you can see below what I came up with.
It works but it's not all clear to me. Can you tell me what "label.bind("<1>", quit)" is standing for? What's the <1> meaning?



#!/usr/bin/env python
import Tkinter as tk
import sys
#underscore is necessary in the following line
def quit(_):
    sys.exit()
root = tk.Tk()
label = tk.Label(root, text="Click mouse here to quit")
label.pack()
label.bind("<1>", quit)
root.mainloop()

thanks
jean




From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Fri Dec  6 09:01:27 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:01:27 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of
 Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <b04cffb3-ad58-44c9-a441-13b8824f0c27@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1584661095.397721.1386338487627.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> I tried out your suggestions and discovered that I had the line
> import sys to the program. So you can see below what I came up with.
> It works but it's not all clear to me. Can you tell me what
> "label.bind("<1>", quit)" is standing for? What's the <1> meaning?
> 
> 
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> import Tkinter as tk
> import sys
> #underscore is necessary in the following line
> def quit(_):
>     sys.exit()
> root = tk.Tk()
> label = tk.Label(root, text="Click mouse here to quit")
> label.pack()
> label.bind("<1>", quit)
> root.mainloop()
> 
> thanks
> jean

The best thing to do would be to read
http://effbot.org/tkinterbook/tkinter-events-and-bindings.htm


"<1>" is the identifier for you mouse button 1.
quit is the callback called by the label upon receiving the event mouse1 click.

Note that the parameter given to your quit callback is the event.

JM




-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From auriocus at gmx.de  Fri Dec  6 13:03:19 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:03:19 +0100
Subject: [newbie] problem trying out simple non object oriented use of
 Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <b04cffb3-ad58-44c9-a441-13b8824f0c27@googlegroups.com>
References: <94a9c18f-595d-486a-96b5-d0f9f57824ba@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3644.1386333508.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b04cffb3-ad58-44c9-a441-13b8824f0c27@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7t3h7$rmf$1@dont-email.me>

Am 06.12.13 14:12, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> It works but it's not all clear to me. Can you tell me what "label.bind("<1>", quit)" is standing for? What's the <1> meaning?

"bind" connects events sent to the label with a handler. The <1> is the 
event description; in this case, it means a click with the left mouse 
button. The mouse buttons are numbered 1,2,3 for left,middle,right, 
respectively (with right and middle switched on OSX, confusingly). It is 
actually short for

<Button-1>


Binding to the key "1" would look like this

<Key-1>

The event syntax is rather complex, for example it is possible to add 
modifiers to bind to a Shift-key + right click like this

<Shift-3>

It is described in detail at the bind man page of Tk.

http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.6/TkCmd/bind.htm

The event object passed to the handler contains additional information, 
for instance the position of the mouse pointer on the screen.

In practice, for large parts of the interface you do not mess with the 
keyboard and mouse events directly, but use the corresponding widgets.
In your program, the label works as a simple pushbutton, and therefore a 
button should be used.

#!/usr/bin/env python
import Tkinter as tk
import ttk # for modern widgets
import sys

# no underscore - nothing gets passed
def quit():
     sys.exit()

root = tk.Tk()
button = ttk.Button(root, text="Click mouse here to quit", command=quit)
button.pack()
root.mainloop()


note, that

1) nothing gets passed, so we could have left out changing quit(). This 
is because a button comand usually does not care about details of the 
mouse click. It just reacts as the user expects.

2) I use ttk widgets, which provide native look&feel. If possible, use 
those. Good examples on ttk usage are shown at 
http://www.tkdocs.com/tutorial/index.html

HTH,
	Christia


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 12:03:13 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:03:13 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
Message-ID: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org>

Is it just me, or is this basically useless?

 >>> help(object)
Help on class object in module builtins:

class object
  |  The most base type

 >>>

Surely a few more words, or a pointer to this 
http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#object, would be better?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec  6 20:35:15 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:35:15 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/6/2013 12:03 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>
>  >>> help(object)
> Help on class object in module builtins:
>
> class object
>   |  The most base type

Given that this can be interpreted as 'least desirable', it could 
definitely be improved.

> Surely a few more words,

How about something like.

'''The default top superclass for all Python classes.

Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
'''

When you have 1 or more concrete suggestions for the docstring, open a 
tracker issue.

 > or a pointer to this
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#object, would be better?

URLs don't belong in docstrings. People should know how to find things 
in the manual index.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 18:48:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:48:57 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l830h6$546$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 07/12/2013 01:35, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/6/2013 12:03 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>
>>  >>> help(object)
>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>
>> class object
>>   |  The most base type
>
> Given that this can be interpreted as 'least desirable', it could
> definitely be improved.
>
>> Surely a few more words,
>
> How about something like.
>
> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>
> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
> '''
>
> When you have 1 or more concrete suggestions for the docstring, open a
> tracker issue.
>

Terry's suggestion above remains odds on favourite on the grounds that 
there have been no other suggestions.  I'll give it another day, then 
raise a tracker issue, unless the overwhelming smell of pot that has 
been drifting around this thread knocks me unconscious.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 19:45:48 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 00:45:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:48:57 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

>>>  >>> help(object)
>>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>>
>>> class object
>>>   |  The most base type

 
>> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
>> '''

> Terry's suggestion above remains odds on favourite on the grounds that
> there have been no other suggestions.  I'll give it another day, then
> raise a tracker issue, unless the overwhelming smell of pot that has
> been drifting around this thread knocks me unconscious.

""" The root class for all Python classes. Its methods are inherited by 
all classes unless overriden. """

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 20:09:32 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 17:09:32 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr-LRju0pnHBkpc+=1dKbCUqstLnuDDucwThYZa2akP9Zw@mail.gmail.com>

>>>>  >>> help(object)
>>>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>>>
>>>> class object
>>>>   |  The most base type
>
>>> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>>> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
>>> '''
>
> """ The root class for all Python classes. Its methods are inherited by
> all classes unless overriden. """

*sits back*.
-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 20:38:25 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 01:38:25 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr-LRju0pnHBkpc+=1dKbCUqstLnuDDucwThYZa2akP9Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <CAMjeLr-LRju0pnHBkpc+=1dKbCUqstLnuDDucwThYZa2akP9Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l836ua$th0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 01:09, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>>>>   >>> help(object)
>>>>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>>>>
>>>>> class object
>>>>>    |  The most base type
>>
>>>> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>>>> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
>>>> '''
>>
>> """ The root class for all Python classes. Its methods are inherited by
>> all classes unless overriden. """
>
> *sits back*.
>

Why?  If a newbie is encouraged, as everybody is, to use help at the 
interactive prompt, then surely them seeing "The most base type" when 
typing "help(object)" is of no use to them at all.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 20:43:43 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 01:43:43 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l83787$q6$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 00:45, Denis McMahon wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:48:57 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>>>>   >>> help(object)
>>>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>>>
>>>> class object
>>>>    |  The most base type
>
>
>>> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>>> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
>>> '''
>
>> Terry's suggestion above remains odds on favourite on the grounds that
>> there have been no other suggestions.  I'll give it another day, then
>> raise a tracker issue, unless the overwhelming smell of pot that has
>> been drifting around this thread knocks me unconscious.
>
> """ The root class for all Python classes. Its methods are inherited by
> all classes unless overriden. """
>

Thanks Denis, you've reminded me why I asked in the first place.  What 
methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc??? 
Personally I'm not really interested, but a newbie might well be and 
hence might wonder what the hell is going on.  If and only if the 
situation can be improved I'll raise an issue, if not I'll quietly let 
it drop, and consider more important things, like why are Australia 
currently thrashing England at cricket? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  9 00:00:53 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 00:00:53 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l83787$q6$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me> <l83787$q6$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l83ipr$f37$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/8/2013 8:43 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 09/12/2013 00:45, Denis McMahon wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:48:57 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>>>>   >>> help(object)
>>>>> Help on class object in module builtins:
>>>>>
>>>>> class object
>>>>>    |  The most base type
>>
>>
>>>> '''The default top superclass for all Python classes.
>>>> Its methods are inherited by all classes unless overriden.
>>>> '''

I said 'top' instead of 'bottom' or 'base' to loosen up thinking a bit. 
I did not expect Mark to make a mound out of that flip.

>>> Terry's suggestion above remains odds on favourite on the grounds that
>>> there have been no other suggestions.  I'll give it another day, then
>>> raise a tracker issue, unless the overwhelming smell of pot that has
>>> been drifting around this thread knocks me unconscious.
>>
>> """ The root class for all Python classes. Its methods are inherited by
>> all classes unless overriden. """

'Root' is even better, since it does not depend on whether a tree is 
drawn up or down. Thanks.

> Thanks Denis, you've reminded me why I asked in the first place.  What
> methods, if any does it provide?

Good question.
 >>> dir(object)
['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dir__', '__doc__', '__eq__', 
'__format__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__gt__', '__hash__', 
'__init__', '__le__', '__lt__', '__ne__', '__new__', '__reduce__', 
'__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__sizeof__', '__str__', 
'__subclasshook__']

>  Are they all abstract? etc???

No.

> Personally I'm not really interested, but a newbie might well be and
> hence might wonder what the hell is going on.

For everything else, help lists the special name methods directly 
associated with the object, along with docstrings.

 >>> help(C)
Help on class C in module __main__:

class C(builtins.object)
  |  Data descriptors defined here:
  |
  |  __dict__
  |      dictionary for instance variables (if defined)
  |
  |  __weakref__
  |      list of weak references to the object (if defined)

I think help should do the same for object

 >>> object.__hash__.__doc__
'x.__hash__() <==> hash(x)'

is equivalent to

  | __abs__(...)
  |      x.__abs__() <==> abs(x)

etc printed for help(int)

The fact that __dict__ does not exist for object but is only added for 
subclasses explains why one must subclass object to get instances that 
allow attributes.

 >>> o = object()
 >>> o.a = 1
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#8>", line 1, in <module>
     o.a = 1
AttributeError: 'object' object has no attribute 'a'
 >>> c = C()
 >>> c.a=1

> If and only if the
> situation can be improved I'll raise an issue

I think it can be. If you prefer me to open the issue, say so.
We should look for existing issues, and closed issues that rejected change.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 18:48:33 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 23:48:33 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l83ipr$f37$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me> <l83787$q6$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l83ipr$f37$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l85ksf$a5r$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 05:00, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
> I think it can be. If you prefer me to open the issue, say so.
> We should look for existing issues, and closed issues that rejected change.
>

Thanks for the offer Terry and yes, please open an issue.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  8 21:31:52 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Dec 2013 02:31:52 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 01:43:43 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote about object:

> What methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc???


Pretty much nothing useful :-)

py> dir(object)
['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dir__', '__doc__', '__eq__', 
'__format__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__gt__', '__hash__', 
'__init__', '__le__', '__lt__', '__ne__', '__new__', '__reduce__', 
'__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__sizeof__', '__str__', 
'__subclasshook__']


What few methods there are typically do nothing, or nothing interesting. 
A few implement basic functionality, e.g. __eq__ performs equality based 
on identity (an object is equal to itself and nothing else).



-- 
Steven


From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 21:41:47 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:41:47 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr_PGfGv_uYbuH6Li77bFG-5FCi9GEiLevqjrfAD5SDbAA@mail.gmail.com>

>> What methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc???
>
> Pretty much nothing useful :-)
>
> py> dir(object)
> [...]
>

So (prodding the student), Why does everything inherit from Object if
it provides no functionality?

Practicality-beats-purity-yours?

-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 21:57:28 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:57:28 +1100
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr_PGfGv_uYbuH6Li77bFG-5FCi9GEiLevqjrfAD5SDbAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_PGfGv_uYbuH6Li77bFG-5FCi9GEiLevqjrfAD5SDbAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpjQDKdMrYCLHZJT5xmU5zp8+_RHyeSPefO7-AQme9fNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc???
>>
>> Pretty much nothing useful :-)
>>
>> py> dir(object)
>> [...]
>>
>
> So (prodding the student), Why does everything inherit from Object if
> it provides no functionality?
>
> Practicality-beats-purity-yours?

Nothing useful to call directly. An int has some useful methods in Python:

>>> (258).to_bytes(2,"little")
b'\x02\x01'

So does a list:

>>> [1,4,1,5,9].count(1)
2

But there's nothing you'd normally want to call from object itself
(except maybe __repr__). There *are*, however, important pieces of
default functionality. Steven mentioned __eq__, and there's also its
pair __hash__. The default system works because the root type provides
implementations of those two functions:

>>> a = object()
>>> b = object()
>>> a == b
False
>>> d = {a:"A", b:"B"}
>>> d[a]
'A'

And it's important that these sorts of things work, because otherwise
a simple Python class would look like this:

class Foo:
    def __new__(self): pass
    def __init__(self): pass
    def __hash__(self): return id(self)
    def __eq__(self, other): return self is other
    # ...

This repetition is exactly what inheritance is good at solving.
Therefore putting that functionality into a base class makes sense;
and since everything MUST have these functions to be able to be used
plausibly, putting them in the lowest base class of all makes the most
sense.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 21:58:09 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 8:11:47 AM UTC+5:30, zipher wrote:
> >> What methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc???
> > Pretty much nothing useful :-)
> > py> dir(object)
> > [...]

> So (prodding the student), Why does everything inherit from Object if
> it provides no functionality?

Thats right.  What does a collection object like [] or the empty set ?
(assuming the unicode-gods will allow and bless that) do when it
collects nothing?  Lets make sure all lists and sets start non-empty.

And why have a stupid number like 0 when it counts nothing?
Lets go back to roman numerals which is so much more?


> Practicality-beats-purity-yours?

Practical!!???

PS Can some kind soul inform me whether I could convince GG to unicode my post?


From steve at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  8 23:16:30 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Dec 2013 04:16:30 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800, rusi wrote:


> PS Can some kind soul inform me whether I could convince GG to unicode
> my post?

Does GG not give you some way of inspecting the post's full headers?

Anyway, here you go:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8


Your plan succeeded.

Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about this. While it would be 
nice, and desirable, for GG to always use UTF-8 instead of picking a 
different encoding based on the phase of the moon, the main thing is that 
it picks a valid encoding. So far I see no reason to accuse GG of using 
an invalid encoding. Valid but legacy encodings are better than 
mojibake :-)


-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 23:46:35 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 20:46:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>
 <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <182d6303-4095-45ce-9b69-04de33e058af@googlegroups.com>

Thanks for the info.

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:46:30 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800, rusi wrote:

> > PS Can some kind soul inform me whether I could convince GG to unicode
> > my post?

> Does GG not give you some way of inspecting the post's full headers?

Well I spent half hour looking around -- both inside GG and of course
searching before asking.

> Anyway, here you go:

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> Your plan succeeded.

> Personally, I wouldn't stress too much about this. While it would be 
> nice, and desirable, for GG to always use UTF-8 instead of picking a 
> different encoding based on the phase of the moon, the main thing is that 
> it picks a valid encoding. So far I see no reason to accuse GG of using 
> an invalid encoding. Valid but legacy encodings are better than 
> mojibake :-)

Heh! I'm hardly a heavy-duty user of unicode -- just keeping track of bugs 
and workarounds. I am of course using 'bug' in a wide pragmatic sense of
preventing communication.

Mojibake is a technical problem.
Non (human) communication is a more fundamental problem.
Keeping an eye on the latter is (for me) a bigger issue than the former.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  9 00:26:28 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:26:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <182d6303-4095-45ce-9b69-04de33e058af@googlegroups.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>
 <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <182d6303-4095-45ce-9b69-04de33e058af@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1ef797ae-3439-46b5-842e-61e17135d9bf@googlegroups.com>

On 12/08/2013 09:46 PM, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:46:30 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800, rusi wrote:
>[...]
>> Does GG not give you some way of inspecting the post's full headers?
> 
> Well I spent half hour looking around -- both inside GG and of course
> searching before asking.

If you click on the little "down" triangle to the right
of the "reply" button for a message, you'll get a menu
that includes "Show Original".  You can see the headers
including the "Content-Type:" in that original.

Of course this means you have to post first and find out 
after...


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 01:44:28 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 22:44:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <1ef797ae-3439-46b5-842e-61e17135d9bf@googlegroups.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>
 <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <182d6303-4095-45ce-9b69-04de33e058af@googlegroups.com>
 <1ef797ae-3439-46b5-842e-61e17135d9bf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <faeb81ef-2234-4295-955b-4e0b554fe7a0@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:56:28 AM UTC+5:30, ru... at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/08/2013 09:46 PM, rusi wrote:
> > On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:46:30 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800, rusi wrote:
> >[...]
> >> Does GG not give you some way of inspecting the post's full headers?
> > Well I spent half hour looking around -- both inside GG and of course
> > searching before asking.

> If you click on the little "down" triangle to the right
> of the "reply" button for a message, you'll get a menu
> that includes "Show Original".  You can see the headers
> including the "Content-Type:" in that original.

Thanks rurpy -- I only looked for how one may set and not just what is.

So now I look at my own post in GG and see

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

So far so good.

However when I point firefox at my own post in the archive
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/662015.html

firefox shows encoding as Windows-1252.

Note Ive looked at a dozen random pages and for all FF shows encoding as
utf-8 except the python list archive ones which show as Win 1252

Note looking into the html I see
<META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">

How us-ascii becomes Win-1252 is outside the reach of my meagre intelligence!

Though I still suspect something is not quite right with the python
mailing-list and/or archive in respect of char encodings.

[Am I beginning to sound like jmf is my guru :-) ]


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 04:44:48 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 09:44:48 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <faeb81ef-2234-4295-955b-4e0b554fe7a0@googlegroups.com>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6f055c7-83d5-4ae9-9ef6-abb8503aa06f@googlegroups.com>
 <52a5441e$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <182d6303-4095-45ce-9b69-04de33e058af@googlegroups.com>
 <1ef797ae-3439-46b5-842e-61e17135d9bf@googlegroups.com>
 <faeb81ef-2234-4295-955b-4e0b554fe7a0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l843ed$g9j$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 06:44, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:56:28 AM UTC+5:30, ru... at yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/08/2013 09:46 PM, rusi wrote:
>>> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:46:30 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:58:09 -0800, rusi wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>> Does GG not give you some way of inspecting the post's full headers?
>>> Well I spent half hour looking around -- both inside GG and of course
>>> searching before asking.
>
>> If you click on the little "down" triangle to the right
>> of the "reply" button for a message, you'll get a menu
>> that includes "Show Original".  You can see the headers
>> including the "Content-Type:" in that original.
>
> Thanks rurpy -- I only looked for how one may set and not just what is.
>
> So now I look at my own post in GG and see
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> So far so good.
>
> However when I point firefox at my own post in the archive
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/662015.html
>
> firefox shows encoding as Windows-1252.
>
> Note Ive looked at a dozen random pages and for all FF shows encoding as
> utf-8 except the python list archive ones which show as Win 1252
>
> Note looking into the html I see
> <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
>
> How us-ascii becomes Win-1252 is outside the reach of my meagre intelligence!
>
> Though I still suspect something is not quite right with the python
> mailing-list and/or archive in respect of char encodings.
>
> [Am I beginning to sound like jmf is my guru :-) ]
>

I'd mention that I never seem to have a problem using Thunderbird on 
Windows 7, but I won't as I don't want to be accused of bullying, hating 
GG, or whatever.  Doh!!! :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  9 00:44:34 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Dec 2013 05:44:34 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a558c2$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:41:47 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:

>>> What methods, if any does it provide?  Are they all abstract? etc???
>>
>> Pretty much nothing useful :-)
>>
>> py> dir(object)
>> [...]
>>
>>
> So (prodding the student), Why does everything inherit from Object if it
> provides no functionality?

You cut out the part of my post where I explained that object does in 
fact provide a minimal set of useful functionality. The example I gave 
was __eq__ (equal), but there is also __ne__ (not equal), __hash__ 
(hashing), __str__ and __repr__ (although many classes will wish to 
override them) and a few more. They're useful, even necessary, but hardly 
exciting.

The other reasons for inheriting from object include:

- If all classes are part of a single hierarchy, it must logically end at 
one (or more, if you support multiple inheritance, which Python does) 
bases classes. (Unless there are loops, which are generally prohibited in 
all OOP systems I know of). The simplest way to do this is with a single 
base class.

- Pragmatism: it was the easiest way to unify types and classes way back 
in Python 2.2, prior to which there was no single hierarchy and all 
classes were (in a sense) distinct.

Pedants will of course realise that Python 2 has *two* object 
hierarchies, classic classes which don't share a base class, and types 
(a.k.a. "new style classes") which do. In Python 3, classic classes are 
gone, and there is a single class hierarchy with object the base.


There may be other reasons.



-- 
Steven


From alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu  Mon Dec  9 02:31:00 2013
From: alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 02:31:00 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a558c2$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <w2da9gaeb0r.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>

Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> writes:

> - If all classes are part of a single hierarchy, it must logically end at 
> one (or more, if you support multiple inheritance, which Python does) 
> bases classes. (Unless there are loops, which are generally prohibited in 
> all OOP systems I know of). The simplest way to do this is with a single 
> base class.

The original Lisp Machine "Flavors" system (one of the ancestors of the
Common Lisp Object System) allowed inheritance to be an arbitrary
directed graph -- possibly with cycles.

I don't believe that this was done for any deep principled reason, but
rather it was just permitted because the algorithm for computing method
resolution order didn't actually care whether there were inheritance
cycles -- it still terminated and returned an ordered list of component
classes.

I do not remember seeing any code that made use of this ability, so
don't ask me if it was good for anything, but it was definitely there...

-- 
Alan Bawden


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 02:39:21 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:39:21 +1100
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <w2da9gaeb0r.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a558c2$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <w2da9gaeb0r.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqkRzuLcxCi_X10jPcq+CzsfqV_t=da2KjkTxa1qt417A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan Bawden
<alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> I don't believe that this was done for any deep principled reason, but
> rather it was just permitted because the algorithm for computing method
> resolution order didn't actually care whether there were inheritance
> cycles -- it still terminated and returned an ordered list of component
> classes.

How does that work, exactly? How do you have a class inherit
(ultimately) from itself, and how does that impact the component class
list?

ChrisA


From alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu  Tue Dec 10 00:34:05 2013
From: alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:34:05 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a558c2$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <w2da9gaeb0r.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
 <mailman.3763.1386576267.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <w2dzjo9clrm.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> How does that work, exactly? How do you have a class inherit
> (ultimately) from itself, and how does that impact the component class
> list?

How does it work "exactly"?  You're asking me about a feature I never
made use of, in a system I have no source for, and that I haven't used
in over 25 years!  If it wasn't mentioned in a parenthetical comment in
the 32-year-old documentation I still have on my bookshelf (Lisp Machine
Manual, 4th edition, July 1981, blue cover), I wouldn't trust my own
memory that such a thing ever even existed.

So you're not getting anything "exact" here!

I have no idea exactly how it worked, but imagine something that walked
the superclass graph _as_ _if_ it was a tree, collected classes in some
order, and that just skips any class it encounters for the second time.
That results in _some_ linear ordering of all the classes you can reach
from the starting class.  Now use that.

Now the results aren't going to be very good by modern standards.  As
the Common Lisp Object System, Dylan, Python, and others, have all
discovered, you really want something that is at _least_ a topological
sort of the superclass graph -- and there is no topological sort at all
unless your superclass graph is acyclic.

But even if the results aren't up to modern standards, you can write a
hell of a lot of code before the deficiencies have hurt enough people
enough times to motivate you to do better.  After all modern Python
classes didn't start using their current ordering until Python 2.3.

-- 
Alan Bawden


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 00:44:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:44:48 +1100
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <w2d4n6he0no.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l833rs$jik$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.3752.1386553439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a52b98$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3753.1386556915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a558c2$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <w2da9gaeb0r.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
 <mailman.3763.1386576267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <w2d4n6he0no.fsf@scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqm+Z9ACG_sWnyaupC5mqX6uiYyrxZrSVKDGN-gt-njgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Alan Bawden
<alan at scooby-doo.csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Alan Bawden
>> ...
>> How does that work, exactly? How do you have a class inherit
>> (ultimately) from itself, and how does that impact the component class
>> list?
>
> How does it work "exactly"?  You're asking me about a feature I never
> made use of, in a system I have no source for, and that I haven't used
> in over 25 years!  If it wasn't mentioned in a parenthetical comment in
> the 32-year-old documentation I still have on my bookshelf (Lisp Machine
> Manual, 4th edition, July 1981, blue cover), I wouldn't trust my own
> memory that such a thing ever even existed.
>
> So you're not getting anything "exact" here!

LOL!

> I have no idea exactly how it worked, but imagine something that walked
> the superclass graph _as_ _if_ it was a tree, collected classes in some
> order, and that just skips any class it encounters for the second time.
> That results in _some_ linear ordering of all the classes you can reach
> from the starting class.  Now use that.

Ow, that sounds a bit... weird. I think I prefer an acyclic graph for
inheritance! A few weirdnesses are necessary for bootstrapping -
type(object) is type, type(type) is type, and type.__bases__ =
(object,) - but normally every type should be created before all
instances of it, and every superclass before all its subclasses.

But of course, *multiple* inheritance is always weird. I've worked in
some detail with four systems (C++, Python, Pike, Java), and they're
all quite different in how they handle MI. Java says "There is no
MI... but you can implement multiple interfaces". C++ says "There is
MI and there is virtual MI, and if one of them doesn't do your head
in, the other will". Python says "It's all about method resolution,
instance data is separate, so make sure everything cooperates". Pike
says "If both parents define a method, super() will return an array of
methods, but that's okay because arrays are callable". It's a
fundamentally tricky problem, largely because every real-world analogy
we can muster is going to end up looking more like composition than
inheritance (a guided missile is-a bomb and is-a rocket, but it's just
as valid to say it is-a rocket and it has-a bomb).

ChrisA


From steve at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  8 20:58:26 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Dec 2013 01:58:26 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu0b$s3o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3748.1386546562.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a523c1$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 23:48:57 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Terry's suggestion above remains odds on favourite on the grounds that
> there have been no other suggestions.  I'll give it another day, then
> raise a tracker issue, 


It's not merely the default superclass, it *is* the superclass to 
everything. In Python 3, you cannot create an object that doesn't derive 
from object. (At least not in pure Python -- perhaps you could do so in a 
C extension class?)

"Top" is misleading, because it assumes that class diagrams are always 
drawn with ancestors at the top and descendants at the bottom.

No need to say that methods are inherited unless overridden, it goes 
without saying that you can override methods.


object:

The most fundamental base class for all Python classes and the root of 
the class inheritance hierarchy. All classes inherit from object.



-- 
Steven


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec  7 19:10:37 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 13:10:37 +1300
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net>

Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
> 
> class object
>  |  The most base type

It's also a somewhat strange construction from an English language
point of view. To make sense, it requires interpreting the word
"base" as an adjective, and when used that way it has connotations
of something to turn your nose up at. I'm assuming that's not the
impression we want to give!

Maybe something like "The ultimate base class of all classes"
would be better.

-- 
Greg


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sat Dec  7 19:59:26 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 19:59:26 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/7/13 7:10 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>
>> class object
>>  |  The most base type
>
> It's also a somewhat strange construction from an English language
> point of view. To make sense, it requires interpreting the word
> "base" as an adjective, and when used that way it has connotations
> of something to turn your nose up at. I'm assuming that's not the
> impression we want to give!
>
> Maybe something like "The ultimate base class of all classes"
> would be better.
>

I've heard this described as "the root of the class hierarchy."

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 23:21:06 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 20:21:06 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr-mz420hOJT6aVt8p5c-20H6RQC9jX8mvKEjHDP04Zp5Q@mail.gmail.com>

>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>
>>> class object
>>>  |  The most *base* type
>>
[[Terry Reedy:]]
> How about something like.
> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.

How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)

Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid),
while Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier,
Steven D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant,
but obviously it can't very well be both at once now cannit?

Could-the-world-be-so-crazy-confused-and-then-shoot-the-messenger?

Sadly, yes.

MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sun Dec  8 07:11:35 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 07:11:35 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr-mz420hOJT6aVt8p5c-20H6RQC9jX8mvKEjHDP04Zp5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAMjeLr-mz420hOJT6aVt8p5c-20H6RQC9jX8mvKEjHDP04Zp5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l81nla$b17$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/7/13 11:21 PM, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>>
>>>> class object
>>>>   |  The most *base* type
>>>
> [[Terry Reedy:]]
>> How about something like.
>> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.
>
> How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
> confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)

Mark, if you want to participate in this forum, please refrain from 
opening with an insult.  I've tried talking with you here in the past, 
and got nothing but sarcastic sneers and put-downs for my trouble.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and believed that previous 
contentious points (no tokens on punched cards, initializing arrays to 
NaN, etc) were due to misunderstandings that could be worked out.  You 
treated me with contempt and refused to discuss the details that would 
have let us understand each other.

I know you have a theory that all of computer science has been confused 
for half a century.  You expounded on this before, but haven't managed 
to explain your point clearly, and have not convinced anyone that you 
have a better model than the ones we're already using.

Perhaps we are confused, and you have a better idea.  I don't know yet, 
though frankly I doubt it.  I'd be glad to learn about your ideas, but 
you have to present them seriously, and with some humility, to get them 
to spread.  So far, repeated attempts to get details from you have failed.

>
> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid),
> while Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier,
> Steven D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant,
> but obviously it can't very well be both at once now cannit?
>
> Could-the-world-be-so-crazy-confused-and-then-shoot-the-messenger?
>
> Sadly, yes.

I'm sorry you feel martyred.  It's not because you bring truth to 
crazy-confused people.  It's because you can't explain yourself, and you 
push people away with your style.

We try hard to treat each other with respect, and I'll ask you to do the 
same.

>
> MarkJ
> Tacoma, Washington
>

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec  8 05:33:32 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 08 Dec 2013 10:33:32 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:21:06 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:

>>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>>
>>>> class object
>>>>  |  The most *base* type
>>>
> [[Terry Reedy:]]
>> How about something like.
>> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.
> 
> How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
> confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)
>
> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid), while
> Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier, Steven
> D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant, 

What are you talking about? Until this very post, I haven't made any 
comments in this thread. 


> but obviously it can't very well be both at once now cannit?

Of course it can. To people in the southern hemisphere, the South Pole is 
at the top of the world and the North Pole is at the bottom. For people 
in the northern hemisphere, it's the opposite, with the North Pole being 
"up" and the South Pole being "down".

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0071/5032/products/upside_down_world_map.png


Family trees and other hierarchies, including class inheritance diagrams, 
have a *relative* direction not an absolute direction. We can all agree 
that Fred and Wilma are the parents of Pebbles, but it doesn't really 
matter whether we draw the family tree like this:


Fred      Wilma              (diagrams best viewed in a fixed-width font
  |         |                 like Courier, Monaco or Lucinda Typewriter)
  +----+----+
       |
    Pebbles


(inheritance goes *down* the page from ancestors to descendants)

or like this:

    Pebbles
       |
  +----+----+
  |         |
Fred      Wilma


(inheritance goes *up* the page from ancestors to descendants).

What matters is the relationships between the entities, not the specific 
direction they are drawn in relative to some imaginary absolute space. 
Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the top 
down or the bottom up or even sidewise:

object --> int --> myint

is the same as:

myint <-- int <-- object


Ironically, although it is conventional to draw the most distant ancestor 
at the *top* of the page, it is called the *base* or *root* of the tree.


This Way Up
    ||
    ||
    ||
  \ || /
   \||/





-- 
Steven



From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 18:01:59 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 15:01:59 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:33 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:21:06 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:
>
>>>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>>>
>>>>> class object
>>>>>  |  The most *base* type
>>>>
>> [[Terry Reedy:]]
>>> How about something like.
>>> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.
>>
>> How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
>> confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)
>>
>> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
>> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid), while
>> Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier, Steven
>> D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant,
>
> What are you talking about? Until this very post, I haven't made any
> comments in this thread.

It was a few months ago.  You do know what I'm talking about because
you just expounded with the exact same argument below.  It's like a
broken record.  (Now if *I* sound like a broken record, it's because
no seems to see the obvious, but carry on.)

>> but obviously it can't very well be both at once now cannit?
>
> Family trees and other hierarchies, including class inheritance diagrams,
> have a *relative* direction not an absolute direction. We can all agree
> that Fred and Wilma are the parents of Pebbles, but it doesn't really
> matter whether we draw the family tree like this:
>
>
> Fred      Wilma              (diagrams best viewed in a fixed-width font
>   |         |                 like Courier, Monaco or Lucinda Typewriter)
>   +----+----+
>        |
>     Pebbles
>
>
> (inheritance goes *down* the page from ancestors to descendants)
>
> or like this:
>
>     Pebbles
>        |
>   +----+----+
>   |         |
> Fred      Wilma
>
>
> (inheritance goes *up* the page from ancestors to descendants).
>
> What matters is the relationships between the entities, not the specific
> direction they are drawn in relative to some imaginary absolute space.
> [yadda, yagni, yadda]

But, there IS A DIFFERENCE.  Let me explain the concept of a object
model (or "type model" if you prefer).

In a family inheritance tree,  there is this difference -- called the
"calendar" --  which imposes an ordering which can't be countermanded
by flipping your silly chart around.  You made a bullshit example to
simply argue a point and *fooled yourself* into ignoring this.  Yes?

Likewise, WITH A COMPUTER, there is a definite order which can't be
countermanded by simply having this artifice called "Object".  If you
FEE(L)s hadn't noticed (no longer using the insult "foo"s out of
respect for the sensativities of the brogrammers), this artifice has
just been *called on the floor* with this little innocent question
that fired up this discussion again (don't hate the messenger).
Again:  people entering the community are pointing out a problem --
that Object is both trying to be the BASE and the SUPERclass of all
objects.

CS554: A type/object *model* has to define the relationship of these
nice abstractions so that they can be mapped to the *actual
concreteness* of the machine.  And there, bro, there is an ordering.
You're not going to magically flip the hierarchy so that your bitless
Object becomes a machine word that is the base of all your types.
You've been fooled by the magic of the Turing Machine.   The modern
computer mollifies you with the illusion of "total abstraction" where
there are no bits or 1s and 0s involved, but yea, it did not turn out
that way.  (Note bene: as a comparison, C++ is very UNAMBIGUOUS about
this fact -- all objects inherit from concrete machine types, which is
why it remains important, *despite* being one of the worst to do OOP
in.  Its *type model* is probably the most clear of any
object-oriented language).

> Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the top
> down or the bottom up or even sidewise:

Have you caught it by now, friends:  IT MATTERS TO THE COMPUTER.
With some apologies for Ned for attempting to be neutral.   Apparently
you guys are philosophers more than Computer Engineers.

MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 21:44:01 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:44:01 +1100
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpyASyVEOgBbmRL=eTpssgUb1gshPh708O8JhPr51g+zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
> (Note bene: as a comparison, C++ is very UNAMBIGUOUS about
> this fact -- all objects inherit from concrete machine types, which is
> why it remains important, *despite* being one of the worst to do OOP
> in.  Its *type model* is probably the most clear of any
> object-oriented language).

Factually wrong. In C++, it is actually *impossible* to inherit from a
"concrete machine type", by which presumably you mean the classic
types int/char/float etc.

struct foo: public int
{
        foo() {}
};

1.cpp:1:20: error: expected class-name before ?int?
1.cpp:1:20: error: expected ?{? before ?int?
1.cpp:2:1: error: expected unqualified-id before ?{? token

Okay, that's a parse error. Maybe if we avoid the language keyword?

typedef int integer;

struct foo: public integer
{
        foo() {}
};

1.cpp:4:1: error: expected class-name before ?{? token

Nope. There are two completely different groups here: the basic types
(called here [1] "Fundamental data types") and the structure types.
The latter are created by the struct/class keyword and can use
inheritance. The former... aren't. Not every C++ type is part of the
type hierarchy.

This is actually somewhat true of Python, too, but the set of types
that are unavailable for inheritance is much smaller and less useful.
You can't inherit from the 'function' type, for instance:

>>> class foo(type(lambda:1)):
pass

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<pyshell#80>", line 1, in <module>
    class foo(type(lambda:1)):
TypeError: type 'function' is not an acceptable base type

And yet <class 'function'> inherits from class <'object'>, so it's not
entirely outside in the way C++ int is. And I can apparently subclass
module, though not generator, and unsurprisingly NoneType can't be
inherited from. (Though you can instantiate it, and it's probably the
only class that will appear to have no return value from
instantiation.)

C++ has you *compose* structs/classes from primitives, but this is not
the same as inheritance. They're completely separate concepts.

ChrisA

[1] http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/variables/


From dreamingforward at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 22:05:14 2013
From: dreamingforward at gmail.com (Mark Janssen)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 19:05:14 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpyASyVEOgBbmRL=eTpssgUb1gshPh708O8JhPr51g+zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpyASyVEOgBbmRL=eTpssgUb1gshPh708O8JhPr51g+zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMjeLr9OS+3ZvbzBpoSRzNZROwuoPd8g4a8a-7ZQZNe+BEwC0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
>> (Note bene: as a comparison, C++ is very UNAMBIGUOUS about
>> this fact -- all objects inherit from concrete machine types, which is
>> why it remains important, *despite* being one of the worst to do OOP
>> in.  Its *type model* is probably the most clear of any
>> object-oriented language).
>
> Factually wrong. In C++, it is actually *impossible* to inherit from a
> "concrete machine type", by which presumably you mean the classic
> types int/char/float etc.

Wow, you guys trip me out, but I guess I've been working in a
different universe where I was mapping classes into basic types (using
generic programming along with typedef).  I'm going to have to
re-think all this confusion.

But, in any case, if you don't have a way to map your abstract objects
into machine types, you're working on magic, not computer science.

MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 22:17:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:17:05 +1100
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr9OS+3ZvbzBpoSRzNZROwuoPd8g4a8a-7ZQZNe+BEwC0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpyASyVEOgBbmRL=eTpssgUb1gshPh708O8JhPr51g+zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMjeLr9OS+3ZvbzBpoSRzNZROwuoPd8g4a8a-7ZQZNe+BEwC0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrVEJpei-YfEH+NO+mT0oF7rmM0wnRU1On2J58B4nTgEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
> But, in any case, if you don't have a way to map your abstract objects
> into machine types, you're working on magic, not computer science.

Maybe, but that mapping isn't always an inheritance relationship.
Ultimately the computer can't work with my data without it being
represented in memory and in registers (at least in part - "relational
database" could be considered a type, the full implementation of which
is never actually loaded into memory), but the most common way to do
this is effectively some form of composition. For instance, C++ has a
type called "pair" (actually a template); what's the most obvious way
to define the type "pair of integers"? Place the first integer, then
place the second integer. The pair has two members, first and second.
The pair isn't the first integer, nor is it the second integer. It
doesn't make sense to inherit pair from integer, so you don't. You
compose it of two integers.

class Pair(object):
    # in C++, we'd need to declare these:
    # int first;
    # int second;
    def __init__(self, first, second):
        self.first, self.second = first, second

Calling integer methods on a Pair makes no sense. Which of its members
did you want to call that on? Both of them? (Wouldn't make sense if
you had a mixed pair, like pair<employee,gun> which could be a little
awkward to try to fire().) You can't sensibly use a Pair in a context
where an integer would be wanted, so it fails LSP. It composes, but
does not inherit from, int.

ChrisA


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 05:12:12 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 03:12:12 -0700
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=_WJE8qOa1F3mjv0Jaw_Z7nc4V8UzONBuTiw1od=fNig@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
> Likewise, WITH A COMPUTER, there is a definite order which can't be
> countermanded by simply having this artifice called "Object".  If you
> FEE(L)s hadn't noticed (no longer using the insult "foo"s out of
> respect for the sensativities of the brogrammers), this artifice has
> just been *called on the floor* with this little innocent question
> that fired up this discussion again (don't hate the messenger).
> Again:  people entering the community are pointing out a problem --
> that Object is both trying to be the BASE and the SUPERclass of all
> objects.

You're mixing two different terminologies.  Whereas "superclass"
contrasts with "subclass" and connotes an imaginary spatial
relationship, "base" contrasts with "derived" (not "top"), which
pairing does not suggest any spatial relationship at all.  There is no
inconsistency in that these two words happen to mean the same thing.

>> Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the top
>> down or the bottom up or even sidewise:
>
> Have you caught it by now, friends:  IT MATTERS TO THE COMPUTER.

No, I'm pretty sure the computer doesn't care one whit whether the
inheritance hierarchy that I scribble on a random sheet of paper
happens to be represented as top-down, bottom-up, left-right,
right-left, center-out, ana-kata, or using any other conceivable
spatial relationship that I may have omitted.  The computer only cares
(inasmuch as I'm willing to personify it) about the actual *code* that
I feed into it.  How the programmer abstracts or visualizes that code
is irrelevant.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 10:06:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:06:35 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <CALwzid=_WJE8qOa1F3mjv0Jaw_Z7nc4V8UzONBuTiw1od=fNig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAMjeLr_cGDRKKeg+rC9KqkPFM9xxK94ixKgT+oK1qg=QzuwB3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALwzid=_WJE8qOa1F3mjv0Jaw_Z7nc4V8UzONBuTiw1od=fNig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l84m91$o8u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 10:12, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Likewise, WITH A COMPUTER, there is a definite order which can't be
>> countermanded by simply having this artifice called "Object".  If you
>> FEE(L)s hadn't noticed (no longer using the insult "foo"s out of
>> respect for the sensativities of the brogrammers), this artifice has
>> just been *called on the floor* with this little innocent question
>> that fired up this discussion again (don't hate the messenger).
>> Again:  people entering the community are pointing out a problem --
>> that Object is both trying to be the BASE and the SUPERclass of all
>> objects.
>
> You're mixing two different terminologies.  Whereas "superclass"
> contrasts with "subclass" and connotes an imaginary spatial
> relationship, "base" contrasts with "derived" (not "top"), which
> pairing does not suggest any spatial relationship at all.  There is no
> inconsistency in that these two words happen to mean the same thing.
>
>>> Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the top
>>> down or the bottom up or even sidewise:
>>
>> Have you caught it by now, friends:  IT MATTERS TO THE COMPUTER.
>
> No, I'm pretty sure the computer doesn't care one whit whether the
> inheritance hierarchy that I scribble on a random sheet of paper
> happens to be represented as top-down, bottom-up, left-right,
> right-left, center-out, ana-kata, or using any other conceivable
> spatial relationship that I may have omitted.  The computer only cares
> (inasmuch as I'm willing to personify it) about the actual *code* that
> I feed into it.  How the programmer abstracts or visualizes that code
> is irrelevant.
>

MASCOT is the One True Way 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_Approach_to_Software_Construction_Operation_and_Test

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  9 00:11:58 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 09 Dec 2013 05:11:58 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:01:59 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:33 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:21:06 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> class object
>>>>>>  |  The most *base* type
>>>>>
>>> [[Terry Reedy:]]
>>>> How about something like.
>>>> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.
>>>
>>> How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
>>> confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)
>>>
>>> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
>>> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid),
>>> while Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier,
>>> Steven D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant,
>>
>> What are you talking about? Until this very post, I haven't made any
>> comments in this thread.
> 
> It was a few months ago.  You do know what I'm talking about because you
> just expounded with the exact same argument below.  It's like a broken
> record.

While I am gratified that you apparently memorise and obsess over things 
I wrote months ago, I'm sorry to tell you that I wasn't lying when I said 
that I didn't know what you were talking about. I had no idea that you 
were referring to a completely different conversation, nor do I recall 
every post I write here.

If I repeated the same argument, it is because the argument is still 
valid. Drawing the root of the tree at the top of the page is just a 
convention, just driving on the left side of the road, or calling the 
elected head of state "Prime Minister". There are other ways to do such 
things which are equally valid, and so long as both parties agree on the 
convention, it doesn't matter whether you write from left-to-right like 
in Australia, right-to-left like in Egypt, or alternate like in Israel.


> (Now if *I* sound like a broken record, it's because no seems
> to see the obvious, but carry on.)

It must be such a trial to be the only sane man in a world gone mad.


[...]
>> What matters is the relationships between the entities, not the
>> specific direction they are drawn in relative to some imaginary
>> absolute space. [yadda, yagni, yadda]
> 
> But, there IS A DIFFERENCE.  Let me explain the concept of a object
> model (or "type model" if you prefer).
> 
> In a family inheritance tree,  there is this difference -- called the
> "calendar" --  which imposes an ordering which can't be countermanded by
> flipping your silly chart around.  You made a bullshit example to simply
> argue a point and *fooled yourself* into ignoring this.  Yes?

No. You haven't explained anything, you have merely made an assertion 
with no supporting evidence at all.

In a family tree of ancestors and descendants, the relationship being 
draw is time-based. Ancestors exist before descendants. Descendants are 
derived in some way from ancestors, not the other way around. We all 
agree that your father existed before you. The temporal direction of the 
relationship is absolutely fixed, past before present, ancestors before 
descendants. We can agree on this.

Explain to me this: what (apart from mere human convention) imposes the 
ordering "past must be at the top of the page"?

If you are reading this as email, your mail client very likely has an 
option to sort message in order that they were received, either most-
recent at the top or oldest at the top. Do you really mean to imply that 
one of those is logical and the other is delusional?


> Likewise, WITH A COMPUTER, there is a definite order which can't be
> countermanded by simply having this artifice called "Object". If you
> FEE(L)s hadn't noticed (no longer using the insult "foo"s out of respect
> for the sensativities of the brogrammers), this artifice has just been
> *called on the floor* with this little innocent question that fired up
> this discussion again (don't hate the messenger). Again:  people
> entering the community are pointing out a problem -- that Object is both
> trying to be the BASE and the SUPERclass of all objects.

How is this a problem? They mean the same thing.

A television is both an appliance and a device. object is both the base 
class and a superclass of all other classes.


> CS554: A type/object *model* has to define the relationship of these
> nice abstractions so that they can be mapped to the *actual
> concreteness* of the machine.  And there, bro, there is an ordering.

Yes, the ordering is that the subclass is derived from the superclass. 
Nobody disputes that. But we can show that relationship using any 
convention we like:


superclass -> subclass 

subclass <- superclass 

"superclass extended by subclass"

"subclass extends superclass"

superclass
   ?
subclass


subclass
   ?
superclass


Python syntax:
    class MySubclass(MySuperclass): ...


Smalltalk syntax:
    MySuperclass :subclass #MySubclass


Java syntax:
    class MySubclass extends MySuperclass {...}



> You're not going to magically flip the hierarchy so that your bitless
> Object becomes a machine word that is the base of all your types.

You seem to be labouring under the delusion that inheritance, which is a 
high-level concept which only applies to objects, goes "all the way down" 
to low-level concepts like words and bits.

Objects do not *inherit* from bits. They are *composed* of bits.


> You've
> been fooled by the magic of the Turing Machine.   The modern computer
> mollifies you with the illusion of "total abstraction" where there are
> no bits or 1s and 0s involved, but yea, it did not turn out that way. 
> (Note bene: as a comparison, C++ is very UNAMBIGUOUS about this fact --
> all objects inherit from concrete machine types, which is why it remains
> important, *despite* being one of the worst to do OOP in.  Its *type
> model* is probably the most clear of any object-oriented language).

You haven't actually programmed in C++ have you?

There's no shame in answering that you haven't. I've never programmed in 
C++. It's on my to-do list, after giving myself an appendectomy with a 
dull rusty knife and just ahead of buying the complete collection of 
Justin Bieber albums. But even I know that you cannot inherit from native 
types, on account that they aren't objects.


>> Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the
>> top down or the bottom up or even sidewise:
> 
> Have you caught it by now, friends:  IT MATTERS TO THE COMPUTER.

How the hell does the computer know which way I draw my class diagrams?



-- 
Steven


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec  9 05:59:29 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 05:59:29 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l847q6$afj$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/9/13 12:11 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:01:59 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:33 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:21:06 -0800, Mark Janssen wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> class object
>>>>>>>   |  The most *base* type
>>>>>>
>>>> [[Terry Reedy:]]
>>>>> How about something like.
>>>>> The default top *superclass* for all Python classes.
>>>>
>>>> How 'bout you foo<l>s just admit that you didn't realize you've been
>>>> confused this whole time?  (It *is* possible isn't it?)
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
>>>> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid),
>>>> while Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).  Earlier,
>>>> Steven D'Aprano wanted to argue that this distinction was irrelevant,
>>>
>>> What are you talking about? Until this very post, I haven't made any
>>> comments in this thread.
>>
>> It was a few months ago.  You do know what I'm talking about because you
>> just expounded with the exact same argument below.  It's like a broken
>> record.
>
> While I am gratified that you apparently memorise and obsess over things
> I wrote months ago, I'm sorry to tell you that I wasn't lying when I said
> that I didn't know what you were talking about. I had no idea that you
> were referring to a completely different conversation, nor do I recall
> every post I write here.
>
> If I repeated the same argument, it is because the argument is still
> valid. Drawing the root of the tree at the top of the page is just a
> convention, just driving on the left side of the road, or calling the
> elected head of state "Prime Minister". There are other ways to do such
> things which are equally valid, and so long as both parties agree on the
> convention, it doesn't matter whether you write from left-to-right like
> in Australia, right-to-left like in Egypt, or alternate like in Israel.
>
>
>> (Now if *I* sound like a broken record, it's because no seems
>> to see the obvious, but carry on.)
>
> It must be such a trial to be the only sane man in a world gone mad.
>
>
> [...]
>>> What matters is the relationships between the entities, not the
>>> specific direction they are drawn in relative to some imaginary
>>> absolute space. [yadda, yagni, yadda]
>>
>> But, there IS A DIFFERENCE.  Let me explain the concept of a object
>> model (or "type model" if you prefer).
>>
>> In a family inheritance tree,  there is this difference -- called the
>> "calendar" --  which imposes an ordering which can't be countermanded by
>> flipping your silly chart around.  You made a bullshit example to simply
>> argue a point and *fooled yourself* into ignoring this.  Yes?
>
> No. You haven't explained anything, you have merely made an assertion
> with no supporting evidence at all.
>
> In a family tree of ancestors and descendants, the relationship being
> draw is time-based. Ancestors exist before descendants. Descendants are
> derived in some way from ancestors, not the other way around. We all
> agree that your father existed before you. The temporal direction of the
> relationship is absolutely fixed, past before present, ancestors before
> descendants. We can agree on this.
>
> Explain to me this: what (apart from mere human convention) imposes the
> ordering "past must be at the top of the page"?
>
> If you are reading this as email, your mail client very likely has an
> option to sort message in order that they were received, either most-
> recent at the top or oldest at the top. Do you really mean to imply that
> one of those is logical and the other is delusional?
>
>
>> Likewise, WITH A COMPUTER, there is a definite order which can't be
>> countermanded by simply having this artifice called "Object". If you
>> FEE(L)s hadn't noticed (no longer using the insult "foo"s out of respect
>> for the sensativities of the brogrammers), this artifice has just been
>> *called on the floor* with this little innocent question that fired up
>> this discussion again (don't hate the messenger). Again:  people
>> entering the community are pointing out a problem -- that Object is both
>> trying to be the BASE and the SUPERclass of all objects.
>
> How is this a problem? They mean the same thing.
>
> A television is both an appliance and a device. object is both the base
> class and a superclass of all other classes.
>
>
>> CS554: A type/object *model* has to define the relationship of these
>> nice abstractions so that they can be mapped to the *actual
>> concreteness* of the machine.  And there, bro, there is an ordering.
>
> Yes, the ordering is that the subclass is derived from the superclass.
> Nobody disputes that. But we can show that relationship using any
> convention we like:
>
>
> superclass -> subclass
>
> subclass <- superclass
>
> "superclass extended by subclass"
>
> "subclass extends superclass"
>
> superclass
>     ?
> subclass
>
>
> subclass
>     ?
> superclass
>
>
> Python syntax:
>      class MySubclass(MySuperclass): ...
>
>
> Smalltalk syntax:
>      MySuperclass :subclass #MySubclass
>
>
> Java syntax:
>      class MySubclass extends MySuperclass {...}
>
>
>
>> You're not going to magically flip the hierarchy so that your bitless
>> Object becomes a machine word that is the base of all your types.
>
> You seem to be labouring under the delusion that inheritance, which is a
> high-level concept which only applies to objects, goes "all the way down"
> to low-level concepts like words and bits.
>
> Objects do not *inherit* from bits. They are *composed* of bits.
>
>
>> You've
>> been fooled by the magic of the Turing Machine.   The modern computer
>> mollifies you with the illusion of "total abstraction" where there are
>> no bits or 1s and 0s involved, but yea, it did not turn out that way.
>> (Note bene: as a comparison, C++ is very UNAMBIGUOUS about this fact --
>> all objects inherit from concrete machine types, which is why it remains
>> important, *despite* being one of the worst to do OOP in.  Its *type
>> model* is probably the most clear of any object-oriented language).
>
> You haven't actually programmed in C++ have you?
>
> There's no shame in answering that you haven't. I've never programmed in
> C++. It's on my to-do list, after giving myself an appendectomy with a
> dull rusty knife and just ahead of buying the complete collection of
> Justin Bieber albums. But even I know that you cannot inherit from native
> types, on account that they aren't objects.
>
>
>>> Likewise it doesn't matter whether we draw class hierarchies from the
>>> top down or the bottom up or even sidewise:
>>
>> Have you caught it by now, friends:  IT MATTERS TO THE COMPUTER.
>
> How the hell does the computer know which way I draw my class diagrams?
>
>
>

And the cycle continues:

1. A thread mentions some fundamental aspect of computing.

2. Mark Janssen jumps in to hint that we are all confused, and he knows 
how things should really work, with no details.

3. The discussion expands to the point of Mark making some claim which 
sounds close to a truth, but seems actually wrong ("It matters to the 
computer").

4. Reasonable people try to engage in an actual discussion of what was said.

5. (Coming next) Mark ignores the bulk of the discussion, picks out one 
detail, and continues making snide and incorrect remarks, skittering 
away from the light of reason.

Maybe we could just not?

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  9 22:19:46 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 03:19:46 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 05:59:29 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:

[...]
> And the cycle continues:
[...]

> Maybe we could just not?

A reasonable request, but just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it is 
a no-brainer that we shouldn't engage with Mark.

While I'm very confident at this point that he is a crank, in the same 
category as circle-squarers, cold fusion proponents, pi-is-a-rational-
number theorists, perpetual motion machine inventors, evolution or AGW 
Denialists[1], and other such obsessive examples of Dunning-Kruger, I'm 
not *totally* confident that he is a crank. Maybe he'll prove me wrong 
and actually learn something. Who knows, maybe *I'll* learn something!

Even if Mark is a crank and beyond the reach of logic, reason or facts, 
and I'm 90% convinced his is, consider that he's not the only one reading 
this thread. If just one person learns something useful or new from a 
reply to Mark, I believe that it is worthwhile.

I daresay that at some point I'll make the same decision as you, that the 
pain of answering Mark is not worth the benefit to readers, or perhaps 
that there aren't any readers who will learn something new. But I'm not 
there yet. (Perhaps I'm just slow.)

Speaking of cranks, anyone unaware of the Crack-pot index should check it 
out: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

It's probably more entertaining for those who have actually spent time 
engaging with cranks in the sciences (e.g. Relativity Denialists) or 
mathematics.




[1] A lot of people dislike the term Denialist. I justify it this way -- 
there is a difference between those who merely have doubts about the 
existence of something (say, evolution, global warming, the Holocaust, 
Operation Gladio, Shakespeare, etc.) and a Denialist. Those doubts don't 
even need to be *reasonable* doubts. If the person happens to be 
unknowledgeable (i.e. ignorant) about the subject in question, their 
doubts may be unreasonable relative to the state of knowledge. What 
matters is whether the person doing the doubting is reasonable. Denialists 
are cranks. Not all people who deny, dispute or question accepted 
knowledge are cranks.

Normally the difference between a crank and a non-crank is relatively 
obvious. One very strong sign is to ask the question "what evidence would 
change your mind?". If the answer is either "no evidence at all will 
change my mind", or something which is impossible to satisfy (e.g. "I 
won't accept evolution until I see a chicken give birth to a human 
being"), then the person is a crank and hence the term Denialist is 
likely to be apt.


-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 23:32:06 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 20:32:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:49:46 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 05:59:29 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:

> [...]
> > And the cycle continues:
> [...]

> > Maybe we could just not?

Thanks Ned for your attempts at bringing some order and sense in these parts
of the universe

> A reasonable request, but just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it is 
> a no-brainer that we shouldn't engage with Mark.

Some basic statistics

Suppose a random variable X takes 2 values x and y with probabilities
p and q=1-p. Then expected value of X

E[X] = px + qy

p = probability of some good result from an interaction
q = 1-p = No good
x = benefit value
y = harm value

> Even if Mark is a crank and beyond the reach of logic, reason or facts, 
> and I'm 90% convinced his is, consider that he's not the only one reading 
> this thread. 

So you are pegging 'no-good-probability' at 90% and so p at 10%. Ok
lets accept these.

And in the benefit value you include the possible benefit to Mark, to
whoever engages with him and the random [no relation of random
variable X] lurking reader. So far so good

And in the harm-value y, are you including the harm done to the random reader 
from a disorderly, abusive, fruitless and almost completely OT  
conversation?

> If just one person learns something useful or new from a 
> reply to Mark, I believe that it is worthwhile.

And if 3 people drop out because the levels of bullshit have crossed their 
thresholds?

[BTW: My statistics was never very strong and is now quite rusty.
So...
Whos that guy who recently added a stats module to python??
Cant remember his name... Maybe I should take some tuitions from him...]


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 10 00:10:27 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 05:10:27 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 20:32:06 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 8:49:46 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 05:59:29 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> 
>> [...]
>> > And the cycle continues:
>> [...]
> 
>> > Maybe we could just not?
> 
> Thanks Ned for your attempts at bringing some order and sense in these
> parts of the universe
> 
>> A reasonable request, but just because it's reasonable doesn't mean it
>> is a no-brainer that we shouldn't engage with Mark.
> 
> Some basic statistics
> 
> Suppose a random variable X takes 2 values x and y with probabilities p
> and q=1-p. Then expected value of X
> 
> E[X] = px + qy
> 
> p = probability of some good result from an interaction 

Define "good result".


> q = 1-p = No good

Define "No good".

> x = benefit value
> y = harm value
> 
>> Even if Mark is a crank and beyond the reach of logic, reason or facts,
>> and I'm 90% convinced his is, consider that he's not the only one
>> reading this thread.
> 
> So you are pegging 'no-good-probability' at 90% and so p at 10%. Ok lets
> accept these.

Certainly not. I'm pegging my confidence that Mark is a crank at 90%, 
which is not the same thing.

For example, although Mark is (presumably) a crank, nevertheless I have 
brought some enjoyment into your life as it has given you the opportunity 
to regale us all with your opinion on off-topic posts, and show off your 
advanced knowledge of probability *wink* That counts as a good result.


> And in the benefit value you include the possible benefit to Mark, to
> whoever engages with him and the random [no relation of random variable
> X] lurking reader. So far so good
> 
> And in the harm-value y, are you including the harm done to the random
> reader from a disorderly, abusive, fruitless and almost completely OT
> conversation?

You are conflating the magnitude of harm with the probability of harm. 
But please, do continue in your off-topic rant complaining about off-
topic conversations, I'm sure that we're all learning either something or 
possibly nothing from it.


>> If just one person learns something useful or new from a reply to Mark,
>> I believe that it is worthwhile.
> 
> And if 3 people drop out because the levels of bullshit have crossed
> their thresholds?

I don't know. If twelve people are moved to drop out of this group 
because of your post complaining about my post, how would you react? I'd 
probably feel between 0 and 1/4 times as good.

By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented coding 
off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.



-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 00:16:02 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:40:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented coding 
> off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.

Well OOP on the python list is certainly on topic.

Interminable discussions about why redrawing the inheritance arrows
the other way round will save the world is OT (for me!)


From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 10 00:31:15 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:31:15 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-6B05A2.00311510122013@news.panix.com>

In article <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:40:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented coding 
> > off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.
> 
> Well OOP on the python list is certainly on topic.
> 
> Interminable discussions about why redrawing the inheritance arrows
> the other way round will save the world is OT (for me!)

What about whether the arrows should have solid heads, open heads, 
barbed heads, double-barbed heads, or circles (filled or open)?  Surely 
you can't expect people to write decent programs when they can't even 
draw the right kind of arrowhead?


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 10 01:05:27 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 06:05:27 GMT
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-6B05A2.00311510122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52a6af26$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:31:15 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69 at googlegroups.com>,
>  rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:40:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano
>> wrote:
>> > By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented
>> > coding off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.
>> 
>> Well OOP on the python list is certainly on topic.
>> 
>> Interminable discussions about why redrawing the inheritance arrows the
>> other way round will save the world is OT (for me!)
> 
> What about whether the arrows should have solid heads, open heads,
> barbed heads, double-barbed heads, or circles (filled or open)?  Surely
> you can't expect people to write decent programs when they can't even
> draw the right kind of arrowhead?

You mock, and so you should, but I just thought I'd mention that there 
are standards for this sort of thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Modeling_Language

According to UML the type of arrow head does make a difference.



-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 10 01:20:30 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 01:20:30 -0500
Subject: interactive help on the base object
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-6B05A2.00311510122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a6af26$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-946AB5.01203010122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52a6af26$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128 at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
 
> > What about whether the arrows should have solid heads, open heads,
> > barbed heads, double-barbed heads, or circles (filled or open)?  Surely
> > you can't expect people to write decent programs when they can't even
> > draw the right kind of arrowhead?
> 
> You mock, and so you should, but I just thought I'd mention that there 
> are standards for this sort of thing:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Modeling_Language
> 
> According to UML the type of arrow head does make a difference.

Surely you realize that such a carefully constructed mock could not have 
been generated without knowledge of the mockee?  UML, like so many 
things, started out with a few good ideas.  Giving some structure to how 
you sketch out classes on a whiteboard was a good idea.  Sequence 
diagrams, in particular, are a neat way to understand complicated 
control flows.

I've even used UML tools to make sense of some huge pile of C++ code 
that was tossed my way.  Import the code, then start shoving boxes 
around on the screen until some sort of logical structure emerges.

But, once things got to there being N different types of arrowheads, 
each having some magical significance, they lost me.

PS: other things that fall into the "Some good basic ideas, but got 
totally out of hand" include Agile, Six Sigma, and Perl.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 04:37:36 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:37:36 +0000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l86ncr$9cn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 05:16, rusi wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:40:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented coding
>> off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.
>
> Well OOP on the python list is certainly on topic.
>
> Interminable discussions about why redrawing the inheritance arrows
> the other way round will save the world is OT (for me!)
>

One of the great joys of reading this list is how wonderfully OT it can 
get.  I have the right to make this statement as I started *THIS* 
thread.  Now what *WERE* we talking about? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 06:51:02 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 03:51:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3816.1386668280.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3816.1386668280.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3b28f40f-cf67-49ef-8047-b7eea936d78a@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:07:36 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 10/12/2013 05:16, rusi wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 10:40:27 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> By the way, I'm curious. Why are discussions about object oriented coding
> >> off-topic to Python? This is not a rhetorical question.
> > Well OOP on the python list is certainly on topic.
> > Interminable discussions about why redrawing the inheritance arrows
> > the other way round will save the world is OT (for me!)

> One of the great joys of reading this list is how wonderfully OT it can 
> get.  I have the right to make this statement as I started *THIS* 
> thread.  Now what *WERE* we talking about? :)


My boy, I see that you are making progress towards your guru -- Nikos.

"You are spamming MY THREAD"


From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 21:04:25 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:04:25 +1000
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3816.1386668280.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <07e43ef4-a2d9-420c-9760-a78a48e6dad6@googlegroups.com>
 <52a6a242$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <5f7e3e2f-2f86-4a2b-bea5-6e70b6fc2f69@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3816.1386668280.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l88h7a$qof$1@dont-email.me>

On 10/12/2013 7:37 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> One of the great joys of reading this list is how wonderfully OT it can
> get.  I have the right to make this statement as I started *THIS*
> thread.  Now what *WERE* we talking about? :)

The God Object (or Higgs Object for the non-theists).



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 06:35:04 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 04:35:04 -0700
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a44afc$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3747.1386543721.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a5511d$0$2762$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3771.1386586782.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68851$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidnfiV8S3ep1RJVNHhc1=feozCMUsas92iVU7Ahh+1JG_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> While I'm very confident at this point that he is a crank, in the same
> category as circle-squarers, cold fusion proponents, pi-is-a-rational-
> number theorists, perpetual motion machine inventors, evolution or AGW
> Denialists[1], and other such obsessive examples of Dunning-Kruger, I'm
> not *totally* confident that he is a crank. Maybe he'll prove me wrong
> and actually learn something. Who knows, maybe *I'll* learn something!

I would compare him more closely to the "Einstein was wrong" armchair
physics revisionists, myself.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Dec  8 18:15:19 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:15:19 +1300
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3658.1386349412.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bghrnvFnpkpU1@mid.individual.net> <l80g93$e54$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3717.1386476467.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bgkcs7F9kdiU1@mid.individual.net>

Mark Janssen wrote:
> Mr. Ewing says "base" has to be interpreted as an *adjective* because
> otherwise it would mean the BOTTOM (like the BASE of the pyramid),

Not exactly -- a native English speaker would say something
like "the bottommost class" if that's what they meant.

Or they would say "the most basic class" to mean the simplest
one -- but that's not quite what we mean either.

The only way that "most base class" makes grammatical sense
is if you interpret "base" as meaning "undesirable", as in
"base metal" (i.e. a non-precious metal), "base instinct"
(the kind of animal urges that humans are meant to be too
good for), etc.

> while Terry responds that it is the TOP (*super*class).

Yeah, "top" or "bottom" only conveys the right idea if you
assume the diagram is drawn a particular way up. Which is
why I like the term "base class" -- you just need to be
careful with the grammar!

-- 
Greg


From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 00:23:37 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 21:23:37 -0800
Subject: interactive help on the base object
In-Reply-To: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7t00b$hp7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CABicbJ+B1Te3ET26OQrQ8LdPBpJ8BqnE-Kp0gD35fh_Uvpkm=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Is it just me, or is this basically useless?
>
>>>> help(object)
> Help on class object in module builtins:
>
> class object
>  |  The most base type
>
>>>>
>
> Surely a few more words, or a pointer to this
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#object, would be better?

It's good enough to give anyone that's seen it before a reminder of
what it is. pydoc is useless or worse if you don't know anything about
what you're reading. For example, the HTML docs frequently point out
potential security vulnerabilities in usages of libraries where pydoc
does not. (The wording *is* awkward, though.)

-- Devin


From john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  6 13:16:19 2013
From: john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net (John Ladasky)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 10:16:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
Message-ID: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>

The following two functions return the same result:

    x**2
    x*x

But they may be computed in different ways.  The first choice can accommodate non-integer powers and so it would logically proceed by taking a logarithm, multiplying by the power (in this case, 2), and then taking the anti-logarithm.  But for a trivial value for the power like 2, this is clearly a wasteful choice.  Just multiply x by itself, and skip the expensive log and anti-log steps.

My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power operators where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they know to take the shortcut?


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Fri Dec  6 13:52:05 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:52:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <442073098.478011.1386355925557.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> The following two functions return the same result:
> 
>     x**2
>     x*x
> 
> But they may be computed in different ways.  The first choice can
> accommodate non-integer powers and so it would logically proceed by
> taking a logarithm, multiplying by the power (in this case, 2), and
> then taking the anti-logarithm.  But for a trivial value for the
> power like 2, this is clearly a wasteful choice.  Just multiply x by
> itself, and skip the expensive log and anti-log steps.
> 
> My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power operators
> where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they know to take
> the shortcut?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

It is probably specific to the interpreter implementation(cython, jython, iron python etc...). You'd better optimize it yourself should you really care about this.
An alternative is to use numpy functions, like numpy.power, they are optimized version of most mathematical functions.

JM


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From neilc at norwich.edu  Fri Dec  6 14:01:26 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:01:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7t6u6$4ef$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-06, John Ladasky <john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The following two functions return the same result:
>
>     x**2
>     x*x
>
> But they may be computed in different ways.  The first choice
> can accommodate non-integer powers and so it would logically
> proceed by taking a logarithm, multiplying by the power (in
> this case, 2), and then taking the anti-logarithm.  But for a
> trivial value for the power like 2, this is clearly a wasteful
> choice.  Just multiply x by itself, and skip the expensive log
> and anti-log steps.
> 
> My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power
> operators where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they
> know to take the shortcut?

It uses a couple of fast algorithms for computing powers. Here's
the excerpt with the comments identifying the algorithms used.
>From longobject.c:

2873 if (Py_SIZE(b) <= FIVEARY_CUTOFF) {
2874         /* Left-to-right binary exponentiation (HAC Algorithm 14.79) */
2875         /* http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/about/chap14.pdf    */
...
2886 else {
2887         /* Left-to-right 5-ary exponentiation (HAC Algorithm 14.82) */

The only outright optimization of the style I think your
describing that I can see is it quickly returns zero when modulus
is one.

I'm not a skilled or experienced CPython source reader, though.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From robert.kern at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 14:12:30 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:12:30 +0000
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <l7t6u6$4ef$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
 <l7t6u6$4ef$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7t7ij$brp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-06 19:01, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-06, John Ladasky <john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> The following two functions return the same result:
>>
>>      x**2
>>      x*x
>>
>> But they may be computed in different ways.  The first choice
>> can accommodate non-integer powers and so it would logically
>> proceed by taking a logarithm, multiplying by the power (in
>> this case, 2), and then taking the anti-logarithm.  But for a
>> trivial value for the power like 2, this is clearly a wasteful
>> choice.  Just multiply x by itself, and skip the expensive log
>> and anti-log steps.
>>
>> My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power
>> operators where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they
>> know to take the shortcut?
>
> It uses a couple of fast algorithms for computing powers. Here's
> the excerpt with the comments identifying the algorithms used.
>  From longobject.c:
>
> 2873 if (Py_SIZE(b) <= FIVEARY_CUTOFF) {
> 2874         /* Left-to-right binary exponentiation (HAC Algorithm 14.79) */
> 2875         /* http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/about/chap14.pdf    */
> ...
> 2886 else {
> 2887         /* Left-to-right 5-ary exponentiation (HAC Algorithm 14.82) */

It's worth noting that the *interpreter* per se is not doing this. The 
implementation of the `long` object does this in its implementation of the 
`__pow__` method, which the interpreter invokes. Other objects may implement 
this differently and use whatever optimizations they like. They may even (ab)use 
the syntax for things other than numerical exponentiation where `x**2` is not 
equivalent to `x*x`. Since objects are free to do so, the interpreter itself 
cannot choose to optimize that exponentiation down to multiplication.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From nick.cash at npcinternational.com  Fri Dec  6 14:32:00 2013
From: nick.cash at npcinternational.com (Nick Cash)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:32:00 +0000
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <64aa230f94f04c938101f928ac1a0276@DM2PR06MB542.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

>My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power operators where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they know to take the shortcut?

Nope:

Python 3.3.0 (default, Sep 25 2013, 19:28:08) 
[GCC 4.7.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import dis
>>> dis.dis(lambda x: x*x)
  1           0 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
              3 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
              6 BINARY_MULTIPLY      
              7 RETURN_VALUE         
>>> dis.dis(lambda x: x**2)
  1           0 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
              3 LOAD_CONST               1 (2) 
              6 BINARY_POWER         
              7 RETURN_VALUE         


The reasons why have already been answered, I just wanted to point out that Python makes it extremely easy to check these sorts of things for yourself.


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 21:00:09 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 19:00:09 -0700
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <64aa230f94f04c938101f928ac1a0276@DM2PR06MB542.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
 <64aa230f94f04c938101f928ac1a0276@DM2PR06MB542.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <52A3D2A9.9030703@gmail.com>

On 12/06/2013 12:32 PM, Nick Cash wrote:
> Nope:
> 
> Python 3.3.0 (default, Sep 25 2013, 19:28:08) 
> [GCC 4.7.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import dis
>>>> dis.dis(lambda x: x*x)
>   1           0 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
>               3 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
>               6 BINARY_MULTIPLY      
>               7 RETURN_VALUE         
>>>> dis.dis(lambda x: x**2)
>   1           0 LOAD_FAST                0 (x) 
>               3 LOAD_CONST               1 (2) 
>               6 BINARY_POWER         
>               7 RETURN_VALUE         
> 
> 
> The reasons why have already been answered, I just wanted to point
> out that Python makes it extremely easy to check these sorts of
> things for yourself.

But this is just the interpreter bytecode that dis is showing.  It's not
showing the underlying implementation of binary_power, for example.
That could be defined in C code with any number of optimizations, and
indeed it appears that some are being done.  dis is great for showing
how python code breaks down, but it can't tell you much about the code
that underlies the byte codes themselves.


From john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net  Fri Dec  6 14:43:44 2013
From: john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net (John Ladasky)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 11:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3662.1386358331.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3662.1386358331.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4ff14c9b-c745-4c31-98a7-e0b457c661cf@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 6, 2013 11:32:00 AM UTC-8, Nick Cash wrote:

> The reasons why have already been answered, I just wanted to point out that Python makes it extremely easy to check these sorts of things for yourself.

Thanks for the heads-up on the dis module, Nick.  I haven't played with that one yet.


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 15:57:49 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 20:57:49 +0000
Subject: Does Python optimize low-power functions?
In-Reply-To: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
References: <5ea86e1b-f5b5-49d1-acfb-22ee4d9a1f16@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxS7PVYd9LqxJb6vLB_NRzuR9iQGDjXTDDdPqBDXHPf_Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 December 2013 18:16, John Ladasky <john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> The following two functions return the same result:
>
>     x**2
>     x*x
>
> But they may be computed in different ways.  The first choice can accommodate non-integer powers and so it would logically proceed by taking a logarithm, multiplying by the power (in this case, 2), and then taking the anti-logarithm.  But for a trivial value for the power like 2, this is clearly a wasteful choice.  Just multiply x by itself, and skip the expensive log and anti-log steps.
>
> My question is, what do Python interpreters do with power operators where the power is a small constant, like 2?  Do they know to take the shortcut?

As mentioned this will depend on the interpreter and on the type of x.
Python's integer arithmetic is exact and unbounded so switching to
floating point and using approximate logarithms is a no go if x is an
int object.

For CPython specifically, you can see here:
http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/07ef52e751f3/Objects/floatobject.c#l741
that for floats x**2 will be equivalent to x**2.0 and will be handled
by the pow function from the underlying C math library. If you read
the comments around that line you'll see that different inconsistent
math libraries can do things very differently leading to all kinds of
different problems.

For CPython if x is an int (long) then as mentioned before it is
handled by the HAC algorithm:
http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/07ef52e751f3/Objects/longobject.c#l3934

For CPython if x is a complex then it is handled roughly as you say:
for x**n if n is between -100 and 100 then multiplication is performed
using the "bit-mask exponentiation" algorithm. Otherwise it is
computed by converting to polar exponential form and using logs (see
also the two functions above this one):
http://hg.python.org/cpython/file/07ef52e751f3/Objects/complexobject.c#l151


Oscar


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 14:37:11 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 11:37:11 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I have following code:

def MyFunc(self, originalData):
     data = {}
     dateStrs = []
     for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
           dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
           data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
           dateStrs.append(dateStr)
    for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
          currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
          nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])


It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?

Thank you.


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Fri Dec  6 18:28:20 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:28:20 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>

On 12/06/2013 11:37 AM, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> I have following code:
>
> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>       data = {}
>       dateStrs = []
>       for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>             dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>             data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>             dateStrs.append(dateStr)
>      for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>            currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>            nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>
>
> It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
> purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
> Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?
>
> Thank you.

You want to build a list, but you don't want to give that list a name?  
Why not?  And how would you refer to that list in the second loop if it 
didn't have a name?

And concerning that second loop:  What are you trying to do there? It 
looks like a complete waste of time.  In fact, with what you've shown 
us, you can eliminate the variable dateStrs, and both loops and be no 
worse off.

Perhaps there is more to your code than you've shown to us ...

Gary Herron



From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 02:14:03 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:14:03 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK, here is the complete function code that I'm trying to improve.

def MyFunc(self, originalData):
     self.dates = []
      data = {}
      dateStrs = []
      for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
            dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
            data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
            dateStrs.append(dateStr)
     for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
           currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
           nextDateStr = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
           self.dates.append(currDateStr)
           currDate = datetime.datetime.strptime(currDateStr, '%Y-%m-%d')
           nextDate = datetime.datetime.strptime(nextDateStr, '%Y-%m-%d')
           if nextDate - curDate < datetime.timedelta(days=31):
               d = currDate + datetime.timedelta(days=1)
               while d < nextDate:
                   self.dates.append(d.strftime('%Y-%m-%d'))
                   d = d + datetime.timedelta(days=1)
     lastDateStr = dateStrs[-1]
     self.dates.append(str(lastDateStr))
     return data

As you can see there is many conversion going on and there's unneeded
dateStrs which is used just to loop thru the dictionary and get the 2
consecutive keys.

This I'm trying to avoid to make this function perform faster and
consume less memory.

This code was written a long time ago before me and now I'm trying to
improve it.

I'm thinking of using the suggestion of Tim Chase which will eliminate
the extra unneeded variables and will let me also eliminate a lot of
back and force conversions.
But if you see a better way - please share.

Thank you.


On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, people, thank you everybody for the input.
>
> Here is the more explanation that I think is in order:
>
> The originalData comes from either SQLite DB or mySQL DB. Since first
> uses strings and second uses datetime I am using str() to make the
> data consistent.
> Now the query is this:
>
> SELECT date, freq, value FROM my_table ORDER BY date;
>
> and so I do know that the originalData is already presorted (ordered).
> So sorting is not a problem here.
>
> Now what I'm looking for here is check whether the time difference
> between the currDateStr and nextDateStr is 30 days. If its do some
> calculation and pass the dictionary with dates as strings to the next
> function.
> That function is inside wxPython (GUI) which will do plotting. In  the
> plot function the dates will be used as the labels for the x-axis. So
> this is another reason to keep dates as strings.
>
> I hope I made it a little clear and hopefully someone will give me
> Python example of how do I simplify this code to eliminate un-needed
> variables.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 5:19 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi, Gary,
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Gary Herron
>> <gary.herron at islandtraining.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/06/2013 11:37 AM, Igor Korot wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi, ALL,
>>>> I have following code:
>>>>
>>>> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>>>>       data = {}
>>>>       dateStrs = []
>>>>       for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>>>>             dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>>>>             data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>>>>             dateStrs.append(dateStr)
>>>>      for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>>>>            currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>>>>            nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
>>>> purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
>>>> Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>> You want to build a list, but you don't want to give that list a name?  Why
>>> not?  And how would you refer to that list in the second loop if it didn't
>>> have a name?
>>>
>>> And concerning that second loop:  What are you trying to do there? It looks
>>> like a complete waste of time.  In fact, with what you've shown us, you can
>>> eliminate the variable dateStrs, and both loops and be no worse off.
>>>
>>> Perhaps there is more to your code than you've shown to us ...
>>
>> What I want here is to do something like this:
>>
>> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>>       data = {}
>>       for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>>             dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>>             data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>>      for i in xrange(0, len(data) - 1):
>>            currDateStr = str(data[i].key())             // I need a syntax here
>>            nextDateStrs = str(data[i + 1].key())    // I need a syntax here
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>>
>>> Gary Herron
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec  8 13:58:23 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:58:23 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:
> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>      self.dates = []
>       data = {}
>       dateStrs = []
>       for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>             dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>             data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>             dateStrs.append(dateStr)
>      for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>            currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>            nextDateStr = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>            self.dates.append(currDateStr)
>            currDate = datetime.datetime.strptime(currDateStr,
> '%Y-%m-%d') nextDate = datetime.datetime.strptime(nextDateStr,
> '%Y-%m-%d') if nextDate - curDate < datetime.timedelta(days=31):
>                d = currDate + datetime.timedelta(days=1)
>                while d < nextDate:
>                    self.dates.append(d.strftime('%Y-%m-%d'))
>                    d = d + datetime.timedelta(days=1)
>      lastDateStr = dateStrs[-1]
>      self.dates.append(str(lastDateStr))
>      return data

It would help to know what you want this function to accomplish:
"MyFunc" isn't exactly descriptive.  From what I gather by reading
it, you want it to do two things:

 - append each date in the range from originalData[0] through
   originalData[-1] to self.dates every time this function is called
   (which means that multiple calls to this will grow self.dates
   every time)

 - if there's less than 31 days between N and N+1, also append all
   the dates in between (this seems weird, but okay).  Again, every
   time this function is called.

 - return a dictionary that maps dates in the input-data to the
   associated source:freq dictionary.

It's hard to tell what you intend to do with these results.  If you
just intend to iterate over them once, asking for associated data,
you could even create a generator that yields the date along with
either None or the associated data.  See below for that.
Alternatively, you can return both the dict-mapping and the date-list
from the function:

  def f(...):
    return (the_dict, the_list)

  a_dict, a_list = f(...)

That would prevent repeated mutation of self.dates

> As you can see there is many conversion going on and there's
> unneeded dateStrs which is used just to loop thru the dictionary
> and get the 2 consecutive keys.

The final snippet of code that I provided handles this pretty nicely
by zipping up the staggered lists and iterating over them while
unpacking them into sensible variable names.  Unless you have a need
to operate on the dates as string, I'd just keep them as dates
throughout the code and only turn them into strings upon output.

> But if you see a better way - please share.

I'd likely incorporate Peter's sliding_window() suggestion and do
something like the following (I commented out using a tuple for the
values, but using a tuple/namedtuple might make more sense)

    import itertools
    def sliding_window(i):
        a, b = itertools.tee(i)
        next(b)
        return itertools.izip(a, b)

    def some_descriptive_function_name(self, original_data):
        # construct these once-per-call rather than every loop
        # or even move them out to module-scope
        ONE_DAY = datetime.timedelta(days=1)
        MONTHISH = datetime.timedelta(days=31)
        for (
                (cur_dt, cur_freq, cur_source),
                (next_dt, next_freq, next_source)
                ) in sliding_window(original_data):
            info = {cur_source: cur_freq}
            # info = (cur_source, cur_freq)
            yield cur_dt, info
            if next_dt - cur_dt < MONTHISH:
                d = cur_dt + ONE_DAY
                while d < next_dt:
                    yield d, None
                    d += ONE_DAY
        info = {next_source: next_freq}
        # info = (next_source, next_freq)
        yield next_dt, info

which can then be used with

  for dt, info in self.some_descriptive_function_name(data):
    # dates should be returned in the same sequence
    # as your original logic
    if info is None:
      do_something_when_no_info(dt)
    else:
      do_something_with_dt_and_info(dt, info)

If you need to iterate over the data multiple times, you can just do

  tmp = list(self.some_descriptive_function_name(data))
  do_first(tmp)
  do_second(tmp)

-tkc




















From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 14:10:56 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:10:56 +0000
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <l82g7t$1o1$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 08/12/2013 18:58, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:

[big snip]

>

Whenever I need date manipulations I always reach out to this 
http://labix.org/python-dateutil

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec  8 14:23:26 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 13:23:26 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <l82g7t$1o1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <l82g7t$1o1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131208132326.67741f9f@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-08 19:10, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 08/12/2013 18:58, Tim Chase wrote:
> > On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:  
> 
> [big snip]
> 
> Whenever I need date manipulations I always reach out to this 
> http://labix.org/python-dateutil

But based on the OP's repeated transformations from date-to-string
and back again, what do you reach for when you want to transform
things *needlessly*?  I recommend the delete key and some healthy
refactoring.  :-)

-tkc







From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 14:28:20 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:28:20 +0000
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <20131208132326.67741f9f@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr> <l82g7t$1o1$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <20131208132326.67741f9f@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <l82h8h$cri$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 08/12/2013 19:23, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2013-12-08 19:10, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 08/12/2013 18:58, Tim Chase wrote:
>>> On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> Whenever I need date manipulations I always reach out to this
>> http://labix.org/python-dateutil
>
> But based on the OP's repeated transformations from date-to-string
> and back again, what do you reach for when you want to transform
> things *needlessly*?  I recommend the delete key and some healthy
> refactoring.  :-)
>
> -tkc

Painkillers :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec  8 15:07:25 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:07:25 -0500
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 08/12/2013 18:58, Tim Chase wrote:
> > On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:
> 
> [big snip]
> 
> >
> 
> Whenever I need date manipulations I always reach out to this 
> http://labix.org/python-dateutil

The problem with dateutil is it's dog slow.  Sure, I use it too, when 
convenience is more important than performance, but have you ever looked 
at the code for dateutil.parser.parse()?  It's worth reading, just for 
fun.


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 15:58:18 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:58:18 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Eliminate "extra" variable
To: Roy Smith <roy at panix.com>


Hi, guys,
Thank you for all those valuable suggestions.
2Tim Chase:
I guess you missed this: "My originalData comes from the database
query" and so the checking of the data quality is a DB burden. ;-)
As to the function: the function purpose is to process the data and
give out the list of dates and the dictionary of date:frequency.
It's input is the query result, so there is no looping when the
function is called. It is called only once.

Also, the data comes from either SQLite or mySQL and so to eliminate
the difference between those engines dates are processed as strings
and converted to dates for the calculation purposes only.
Maybe I will need to refactor SQLite processing to get the dates as
dates and not a string, but that's probably for the future. so that
dates will be kept as the datetime type until the end of the function.
As I wrote the dates will be used as the text for the plotting window
axis labels and as the labels they should come out as strings, hence
the conversion.

Thank you.


On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 08/12/2013 18:58, Tim Chase wrote:
>> > On 2013-12-07 23:14, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>> [big snip]
>>
>> >
>>
>> Whenever I need date manipulations I always reach out to this
>> http://labix.org/python-dateutil
>
> The problem with dateutil is it's dog slow.  Sure, I use it too, when
> convenience is more important than performance, but have you ever looked
> at the code for dateutil.parser.parse()?  It's worth reading, just for
> fun.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec  8 17:18:58 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 16:18:58 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-08 12:58, Igor Korot wrote:
> Also, the data comes from either SQLite or mySQL and so to eliminate
> the difference between those engines dates are processed as strings
> and converted to dates for the calculation purposes only.
> Maybe I will need to refactor SQLite processing to get the dates as
> dates and not a string, but that's probably for the future. so that
> dates will be kept as the datetime type until the end of the
> function. As I wrote the dates will be used as the text for the
> plotting window axis labels and as the labels they should come out
> as strings, hence the conversion.

Sqlite can do this automatically if you tell it to upon connecting:
    
>>> import sqlite3
>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
...    detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>> cur.execute("create table foo (s date);")
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>> import datetime
>>> today = datetime.date.today()
>>> cur.execute("insert into foo(s) values (?)", (today,))
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>> cur.execute("select * from foo")
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>> r = cur.fetchone()
>>> print r
(datetime.date(2013, 12, 8),)


Note that it returns a datetime.date, the same as it was defined.

-tkc






From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 02:49:58 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:49:58 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>

Tim,

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 2013-12-08 12:58, Igor Korot wrote:
>> Also, the data comes from either SQLite or mySQL and so to eliminate
>> the difference between those engines dates are processed as strings
>> and converted to dates for the calculation purposes only.
>> Maybe I will need to refactor SQLite processing to get the dates as
>> dates and not a string, but that's probably for the future. so that
>> dates will be kept as the datetime type until the end of the
>> function. As I wrote the dates will be used as the text for the
>> plotting window axis labels and as the labels they should come out
>> as strings, hence the conversion.
>
> Sqlite can do this automatically if you tell it to upon connecting:
>
>>>> import sqlite3
>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
> ...    detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>>> cur.execute("create table foo (s date);")
> <sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>>> import datetime
>>>> today = datetime.date.today()
>>>> cur.execute("insert into foo(s) values (?)", (today,))
> <sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>>> cur.execute("select * from foo")
> <sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x7f7f31665570>
>>>> r = cur.fetchone()
>>>> print r
> (datetime.date(2013, 12, 8),)

Interesting.
I'm using datetime rather than the date type for CREATE TABLE() command.
And when running SELECT I still see the b'1998-08-05 23:12:12' string
representation when running my program under debugger.

And it is confirmed by running this:

>>> cur.execute("CREATE TABLE foo(bar datetime);")
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x00E1E6A0>
>>> import datetime
>>> today = datetime.date.today()
>>> cur.execute("insert into foo(bar) values (?)", (today,))
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x00E1E6A0>
>>> cur.execute("select * from foo")
<sqlite3.Cursor object at 0x00E1E6A0>
>>> res = cur.fetchall()
>>> print res
[(u'2013-12-14',)]
>>>

So, I guess this is a bug in the sqlite3 python module as datetime is
legal data type on the DB engine.

Thank you.

>
>
> Note that it returns a datetime.date, the same as it was defined.
>
> -tkc
>
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec 15 07:17:20 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:17:20 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-14 23:49, Igor Korot wrote:
> Tim,
> 
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:18 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
detect_types parameter to connect()?

-tkc





From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec 15 07:29:23 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 06:29:23 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-15 06:17, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>>... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
> 
> Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
> detect_types parameter to connect()?

It's really the PARSE_DECLTYPES that is important.

http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html#sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES

-tkc




From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 17:46:18 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:46:18 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>

Tim,

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:29 AM, Tim Chase
<python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 2013-12-15 06:17, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>>>... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>
>> Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
>> detect_types parameter to connect()?

Yes, I did.
This is the beginning of the session:

>>> import sqlite3
>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('c:\Documents and Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types = sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

Also please note that you session was missing the cursor creation command. ;-)

Thank you.

>
> It's really the PARSE_DECLTYPES that is important.
>
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html#sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES
>
> -tkc
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Dec 15 19:58:31 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:58:31 +0000
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 15/12/2013 22:46, Igor Korot wrote:
> Tim,
>
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:29 AM, Tim Chase
> <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-12-15 06:17, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>>>>... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>>
>>> Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
>>> detect_types parameter to connect()?
>
> Yes, I did.
> This is the beginning of the session:
>
>>>> import sqlite3
>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('c:\Documents and Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types = sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>
When writing paths on Windows, it's a good idea to use raw string
literals or slashes instead of backslashes:

     conn = sqlite3.connect(r'c:\Documents and 
Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types = 
sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

or:

     conn = sqlite3.connect('c:/Documents and 
Settings/Igor.FORDANWORK/Desktop/mydb.db', detect_types = 
sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

> Also please note that you session was missing the cursor creation command. ;-)
>
> Thank you.
>
>>
>> It's really the PARSE_DECLTYPES that is important.
>>
>> http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html#sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES
>>



From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 21:43:53 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:43:53 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTw1kgrE2fQ=4sgGahOyC2tTPK86xFtyOc=deo2WEZ+DVA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 15/12/2013 22:46, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:29 AM, Tim Chase
>> <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2013-12-15 06:17, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
>>>> detect_types parameter to connect()?
>>
>>
>> Yes, I did.
>> This is the beginning of the session:
>>
>>>>> import sqlite3
>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('c:\Documents and
>>>>> Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types =
>>>>> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>
>>
> When writing paths on Windows, it's a good idea to use raw string
> literals or slashes instead of backslashes:
>
>     conn = sqlite3.connect(r'c:\Documents and
> Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types =
> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>
> or:
>
>     conn = sqlite3.connect('c:/Documents and
> Settings/Igor.FORDANWORK/Desktop/mydb.db', detect_types =
> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

So, how do I convert my string to one of those?
I realized I can just do replace '/' to '\', but is there a better alternative?

Thank you.


>
>
>> Also please note that you session was missing the cursor creation command.
>> ;-)
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>>
>>> It's really the PARSE_DECLTYPES that is important.
>>>
>>> http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html#sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES
>>>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From davea at davea.name  Sun Dec 15 21:58:24 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:58:24 -0500
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTw1kgrE2fQ=4sgGahOyC2tTPK86xFtyOc=deo2WEZ+DVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <CA+FnnTw1kgrE2fQ=4sgGahOyC2tTPK86xFtyOc=deo2WEZ+DVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.3843452737129847239@news.gmane.org>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:43:53 -0800, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> 
wrote:




> > When writing paths on Windows, it's a good idea to use raw string
> > literals or slashes instead of backslashes:
> >
> >     conn = sqlite3.connect(r'c:\Documents and
> > Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types =
> > sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
> >
> > or:
> >
> >     conn = sqlite3.connect('c:/Documents and
> > Settings/Igor.FORDANWORK/Desktop/mydb.db', detect_types =
> > sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)

> So, how do I convert my string to one of those?
> I realized I can just do replace '/' to '\', but is there a better 
alternative?

The "conversion" is done with a text editor.  The string literals you 
had were just wrong. By the time they have been turned into strings 
it's too late to algorithmically recover your intended string values.

-- 
DaveA



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 21:57:24 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:57:24 +1100
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTw1kgrE2fQ=4sgGahOyC2tTPK86xFtyOc=deo2WEZ+DVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <CA+FnnTw1kgrE2fQ=4sgGahOyC2tTPK86xFtyOc=deo2WEZ+DVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpkBcMuD7FkXTO=6peZV1XcaN7pr7meQXgBF=D+tJ+7bA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, how do I convert my string to one of those?
> I realized I can just do replace '/' to '\', but is there a better alternative?

The path is exactly the same, whether you use forward slashes or
backslashes, on Windows. Most of the world uses backslashes for
Windows paths, but forward slashes do work fine (and that's not a
Python thing - the underlying APIs work with / just fine too). So you
don't have to actually replace anything.

>>> len(open("c:/Festival2013.txt").read())
79137

ChrisA


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:24:20 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:24:20 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208161858.1365f2d7@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTz-T8S3Z-Qaa7T_mHke-1+XN8-iZifnhBoS+aWQhje46A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131215061720.2fbb394d@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215062923.184bf636@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CA+FnnTyuvD2sMdYaQYt39vH_BE-a9o3rLSJ3stmXzNiFEQqcoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52AE5037.5000300@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwtLoYwwDdQ5f6O3+K--xPxfs47RCx-MDFdRmZQhWdsbg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I have the same result even with:

sqlite3.connect(r'...')

Any other alternatives?

Thank you.


On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:58 PM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 15/12/2013 22:46, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>> Tim,
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:29 AM, Tim Chase
>> <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2013-12-15 06:17, Tim Chase wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('x.sqlite',
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... detect_types=sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your example code omitted this one crucial line.  Do you specify the
>>>> detect_types parameter to connect()?
>>
>>
>> Yes, I did.
>> This is the beginning of the session:
>>
>>>>> import sqlite3
>>>>> conn = sqlite3.connect('c:\Documents and
>>>>> Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types =
>>>>> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>>
>>
> When writing paths on Windows, it's a good idea to use raw string
> literals or slashes instead of backslashes:
>
>     conn = sqlite3.connect(r'c:\Documents and
> Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\Desktop\mydb.db', detect_types =
> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>
> or:
>
>     conn = sqlite3.connect('c:/Documents and
> Settings/Igor.FORDANWORK/Desktop/mydb.db', detect_types =
> sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES|sqlite3.PARSE_COLNAMES)
>
>
>> Also please note that you session was missing the cursor creation command.
>> ;-)
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>>
>>> It's really the PARSE_DECLTYPES that is important.
>>>
>>> http://docs.python.org/2/library/sqlite3.html#sqlite3.PARSE_DECLTYPES
>>>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From davea at davea.name  Sun Dec  8 17:36:30 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 17:36:30 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A25D94.9040404@islandtraining.com>
 <CA+FnnTxxJc2J1SF0UHXo1DkZPdN0W5iWhOgBYzfbW1T0GtaSgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzBYp5Fvy1ohCySLitbL21+hHdfur9=oF4TM+Skeu-XJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTzkHYNN_rgLaaXwvod9qGhetXRy+3v96+5+wEyhCq0LwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwZ3aF++ZzaAJzG0Y98usfLTge0KTzj14LfqDgh1OnsZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131208125823.241112db@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.3738.1386529877.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-E243A9.15072508122013@news.panix.com>
 <CA+FnnTyZzrhwkLvsY0EdvXD_PoTWK45C0=peWGWtse1uEwJC=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTwSKYs-RAqVT-fZpotte30+xC-oUx-qnidw_qA=uv+KSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.8363332440644761498@news.gmane.org>

On Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:58:18 -0800, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> It's input is the query result, so there is no looping when the
> function is called. It is called only once.

Then why save part of the result in an instance attribute? Just 
return all of the results as a tuple.

-- 
DaveA



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 18:38:37 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:38:37 -0500
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wUHBtsKbEOsZ7COkrVVyhKF9N9FWLQUpGRF=G4pxOPAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, ALL,
> I have following code:
>
> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>      data = {}
>      dateStrs = []
>      for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>            dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>            data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>
               # above line confuses me!


>            dateStrs.append(dateStr)
>     for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>           currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>           nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>
>
Python lets you iterate over a list directly, so :

    for d in originalData:
        dateStr, freq, source = d
        data[source] = freq

Your code looks like you come from a c background.  Python idioms are
different

I'm not sure what you are trying to do in the second for loop, but I think
you are trying to iterate thru a dictionary in a certain order, and you
can't depend on the order

>
> It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
> purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
> Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?
>
> Thank you.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Fri Dec  6 18:49:18 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:49:18 -0800
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+wUHBtsKbEOsZ7COkrVVyhKF9N9FWLQUpGRF=G4pxOPAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+wUHBtsKbEOsZ7COkrVVyhKF9N9FWLQUpGRF=G4pxOPAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A2627E.7070307@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/06/2013 03:38 PM, Joel Goldstick wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Igor Korot wrote:
>>
>>     def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>>           data = {}
>>           dateStrs = []
>>           for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>>                 dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>>                 data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
>>
>>                 # above line confuses me!
>>
>>                 dateStrs.append(dateStr)
>>          for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>>                currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>>                nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>
> Python lets you iterate over a list directly, so :
>
>      for d in originalData:
>          dateStr, freq, source = d
>          data[source] = freq

You could shorten that to

        for dateStr, freq, source in originalData:

and if dateStr is already a string:

            data[dateStr] = {source: freq}

> Your code looks like you come from a c background.  Python idioms are different

Agreed.


> I'm not sure what you are trying to do in the second for loop, but I think you are trying to iterate thru a dictionary
> in a certain order, and you can't depend on the order

The second loop is iterating over the list dateStrs.

--
~Ethan~


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 19:16:13 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:16:13 -0500
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3672.1386373120.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-D13A60.19161306122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3672.1386373120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:

> Python lets you iterate over a list directly, so :
> 
>     for d in originalData:
>         dateStr, freq, source = d
>         data[source] = freq

I would make it even simpler:

>     for dateStr, freq, source in originalData:
>         data[source] = freq


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 19:32:28 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:32:28 -0500
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <roy-D13A60.19161306122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3672.1386373120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-D13A60.19161306122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+x-0rK7UbKOvHE4mg-gfJYxmueKqBCkZmUXnrtgbShSgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:16 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> In article <mailman.3672.1386373120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Python lets you iterate over a list directly, so :
> >
> >     for d in originalData:
> >         dateStr, freq, source = d
> >         data[source] = freq
>
> I would make it even simpler:
>
> >     for dateStr, freq, source in originalData:
> >         data[source] = freq
>


+1 --- I agree

To the OP:

Could you add a docstring to your function to explain what is supposed to
happen, describe the input and output?  If you do that I'm sure you could
get some more complete help with your code.

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Fri Dec  6 19:37:21 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 18:37:21 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131206183721.3e7f21c2@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-06 11:37, Igor Korot wrote:
> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>      data = {}
>      for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>            dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>            data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}

this can be more cleanly/pythonically written as

  def my_func(self, original_data):
    for date, freq, source in original_data
      data[str(date)] = {source: freq}

or even just

    data = dict(
      (str(date), {source: freq})
      for date, freq, source in original_data
      )

You're calling it a "dateStr", which suggests that it's already a
string, so I'm not sure why you're str()'ing it.  So I'd either just
call it "date", or skip the str(date) bit if it's already a string.
That said, do you even need to convert it to a string (as
datetime.date objects can be used as keys in dictionaries)?

>     for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>           currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>           nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
> 
> It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
> purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
> Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?

Your code isn't actually using the data-dict at this point.  If you
were doing something with it, it might help to know what you want to
do.

Well, you can iterate over the original data, zipping them together:

  for (cur, _, _), (next, _, _) in zip(
      original_data[:-1],
      original_data[1:]
      ):
    do_something(cur, next)

If your purpose for the "data" dict is to merely look up stats from
the next one, the whole batch of your original code can be replaced
with:

  for (
        (cur_dt, cur_freq, cur_source),
        (next_dt, next_freq, next_source)
        ) in zip(original_data[:-1], original_data[1:]):
    # might need to do str(cur_dt) and str(next_dt) instead?
    do_things_with(cur_dt, cur_freq, cur_source,
      next_dt, next_freq, next_source)

That eliminates the dict *and* the extra variable name. :-)

-tkc






From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Dec  8 09:04:13 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:04:13 +0100
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131206183721.3e7f21c2@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <l81u8d$9kg$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tim Chase wrote:

> On 2013-12-06 11:37, Igor Korot wrote:
>> def MyFunc(self, originalData):
>>      data = {}
>>      for i in xrange(0, len(originalData)):
>>            dateStr, freq, source = originalData[i]
>>            data[str(dateStr)]  = {source: freq}
> 
> this can be more cleanly/pythonically written as
> 
>   def my_func(self, original_data):
>     for date, freq, source in original_data
>       data[str(date)] = {source: freq}
> 
> or even just
> 
>     data = dict(
>       (str(date), {source: freq})
>       for date, freq, source in original_data
>       )

or even just

data = {str(date): {source: freq}
        for date, freq, source in original_data}

But do you really need a dict with a single key? And is it even correct? If 
a date occurs twice only the last source:freq pair is kept. Without knowing 
the context the humble

data = {}
for date, freq, source in original_data:
    source_to_freq = data.setdefault(date, {})
    if source in source_to_freq:
        raise ValueError(
            "Multiple frequencies for one source not supported")
    source_to_freq[source] = freq

appears so much more plausible...
 
> You're calling it a "dateStr", which suggests that it's already a
> string, so I'm not sure why you're str()'ing it.  So I'd either just
> call it "date", or skip the str(date) bit if it's already a string.
> That said, do you even need to convert it to a string (as
> datetime.date objects can be used as keys in dictionaries)?
> 
>>     for i in xrange(0, len(dateStrs) - 1):
>>           currDateStr = str(dateStrs[i])
>>           nextDateStrs = str(dateStrs[i + 1])
>> 
>> It seems very strange that I need the dateStrs list just for the
>> purpose of looping thru the dictionary keys.
>> Can I get rid of the "dateStrs" variable?
> 
> Your code isn't actually using the data-dict at this point.  If you
> were doing something with it, it might help to know what you want to
> do.
> 
> Well, you can iterate over the original data, zipping them together:
> 
>   for (cur, _, _), (next, _, _) in zip(
>       original_data[:-1],
>       original_data[1:]
>       ):
>     do_something(cur, next)

This reminds me that I am a proponent of small dumb helper functions ;)
I find

def sliding_window(items):
    a, b = itertools.tee(items)
    next(b, None)
    return zip(a, b)

dates = (date for date, _freq, _source in original_data)

for from_date, to_date in sliding_window(dates):
    do_something(from_date, to_date)

much more accessible. Plus, I can apply arbitrary improvements to the 
sliding_window() implementation or switch to a library version of that 
function without fear of messing things up.
Likewise, should original_data become a sequence of namedtuples it is 
straightforward to propagate this change with

dates = (item.date for item in original_data)

> If your purpose for the "data" dict is to merely look up stats from
> the next one, the whole batch of your original code can be replaced
> with:
> 
>   for (
>         (cur_dt, cur_freq, cur_source),
>         (next_dt, next_freq, next_source)
>         ) in zip(original_data[:-1], original_data[1:]):
>     # might need to do str(cur_dt) and str(next_dt) instead?
>     do_things_with(cur_dt, cur_freq, cur_source,
>       next_dt, next_freq, next_source)
> 
> That eliminates the dict *and* the extra variable name. :-)

Smileys are overused ;) Anyway, with namedtuples this ... would become

for cur_item, next_item in zip(original_data, original_data[1:]):
    do_things_with(cur_item, next_item)

Note that there's no need to slice the first argument as zip() ignores extra 
items.



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec  8 13:58:20 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:58:20 -0600
Subject: Eliminate "extra" variable
In-Reply-To: <l81u8d$9kg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTzDjRzU65+VWnOwxfVR9FGMDgHLLmLEDOoGE0BMCptzEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131206183721.3e7f21c2@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <l81u8d$9kg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131208125820.61ae927a@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-08 15:04, Peter Otten wrote:
> >     data = dict(
> >       (str(date), {source: freq})
> >       for date, freq, source in original_data
> >       )  
> 
> or even just
> 
> data = {str(date): {source: freq}
>         for date, freq, source in original_data}

I maintain enough pre-2.7 code that I tend to eschew
dict-comprehensions for the time being.  I like them as a language
addition, but can't use them yet in most of the code-bases with which
I work.  To the OP, if you don't have to support pre-2.7 code, then
this is a tidier way to go.

> But do you really need a dict with a single key? And is it even
> correct? If a date occurs twice only the last source:freq pair is
> kept. Without knowing the context the humble
> 
> data = {}
> for date, freq, source in original_data:
>     source_to_freq = data.setdefault(date, {})
>     if source in source_to_freq:
>         raise ValueError(
>             "Multiple frequencies for one source not supported")
>     source_to_freq[source] = freq
> 
> appears so much more plausible...

The OP's code didn't do any such sanity-checking so I made the
assumption that the data came in clean.  I know better than to trust
incoming data (even my own) in my own code, but...

(followup to the OP's reply elsewhere in the thread coming shortly)

-tkc








From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 16:26:31 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 21:26:31 +0000
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
Message-ID: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org>

My apologies if you've seen this before but here is the official 
schedule http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec  6 20:39:57 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 20:39:57 -0500
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/6/2013 4:26 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> My apologies if you've seen this before but here is the official
> schedule http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/

The PEP number is not an accident ;-).
-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 20:48:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 01:48:57 +0000
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 07/12/2013 01:39, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/6/2013 4:26 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> My apologies if you've seen this before but here is the official
>> schedule http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>
> The PEP number is not an accident ;-).

Sorry but I don't get it :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 20:54:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:54:34 +1100
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqTuEC=RLC-Zb2R7Q+Yus=NBoc-9e5PT9ANYSsw5jGiMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/12/2013 01:39, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>
>> On 12/6/2013 4:26 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>> My apologies if you've seen this before but here is the official
>>> schedule http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>>
>>
>> The PEP number is not an accident ;-).
>
>
> Sorry but I don't get it :)

HTTP error 404 "Not Found", probably the most famous (though not the
most common) HTTP return code.

You asked for Python 2.8? Sorry, not found... it's 404.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec  6 21:00:33 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 02:00:33 +0000
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqTuEC=RLC-Zb2R7Q+Yus=NBoc-9e5PT9ANYSsw5jGiMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqTuEC=RLC-Zb2R7Q+Yus=NBoc-9e5PT9ANYSsw5jGiMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7tvfs$94e$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 07/12/2013 01:54, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/12/2013 01:39, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2013 4:26 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My apologies if you've seen this before but here is the official
>>>> schedule http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/
>>>
>>>
>>> The PEP number is not an accident ;-).
>>
>>
>> Sorry but I don't get it :)
>
> HTTP error 404 "Not Found", probably the most famous (though not the
> most common) HTTP return code.
>
> You asked for Python 2.8? Sorry, not found... it's 404.
>
> ChrisA
>

Clearly that went straight over your head.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 21:07:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:07:30 +1100
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <l7tvfs$94e$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqTuEC=RLC-Zb2R7Q+Yus=NBoc-9e5PT9ANYSsw5jGiMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7tvfs$94e$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpsALgZPp+QZE2i2=Mq-44fDHHBi+xa_G5hCghB1qT5zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/12/2013 01:54, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> Sorry but I don't get it :)
>>
>> [explained the joke]
>
> Clearly that went straight over your head.

*facepalm* Yep, it did. Completely missed what you said there.

Doh. I see what you did there... now.

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Fri Dec  6 22:23:06 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:23:06 -0800
Subject: Python 2.8 release schedule
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpsALgZPp+QZE2i2=Mq-44fDHHBi+xa_G5hCghB1qT5zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l7tfe1$4bg$1@ger.gmane.org> <l7tu94$s3o$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <l7tuq3$1l9$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqTuEC=RLC-Zb2R7Q+Yus=NBoc-9e5PT9ANYSsw5jGiMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l7tvfs$94e$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpsALgZPp+QZE2i2=Mq-44fDHHBi+xa_G5hCghB1qT5zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A2949A.7020104@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/06/2013 06:07 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/12/2013 01:54, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Sorry but I don't get it :)
>>>
>>> [explained the joke]
>>
>> Clearly that went straight over your head.
>
> *facepalm* Yep, it did. Completely missed what you said there.
>
> Doh. I see what you did there... now.

Heh.  It was too subtle for me, too.  'Course, I've been fighting OpenERP all day...

--
~Ethan~


From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 18:54:22 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 15:54:22 -0800
Subject: One liners
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the direction
of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary variables
with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under the sun?

What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis on
readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder than
writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string methods?

I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot of
newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or something,
culturally speaking.
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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec  6 19:07:42 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:07:42 -0500
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l7tos3$c31$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/6/13 6:54 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
> direction of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary
> variables with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under
> the sun?
>
> What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis
> on readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder
> than writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string
> methods?
>
> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
> of newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or
> something, culturally speaking.

I agree with you that those trends would be bad.  But I'm not sure how 
you are judging that "Python" is being dragged in that direction?  It's 
a huge community.  Sure some people are obsessed with fewer lines, and 
micro-optimizations, and other newb mistakes, but there are good people too!

--Ned, ever the optimist.




From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 19:10:11 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:10:11 -0700
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>

On 12/06/2013 04:54 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the direction
> of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary variables
> with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under the sun?
> 
> What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis on
> readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder than
> writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string methods?
> 
> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot of
> newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or something,
> culturally speaking.

I have not seen any evidence that this trend of yours is widespread.
The Python code I come across seems pretty normal to me.  Expressive and
readable.  Haven't seen any attempt to turn Python into Perl or that
sort of thing.  And I don't see that culture expressed on the list.
Maybe I'm just blind...




From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 19:14:49 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 16:14:49 -0800
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/06/2013 04:54 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> > Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
> direction
> > of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary variables
> > with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under the sun?
> >
> > What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis
> on
> > readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder than
> > writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string methods?
> >
> > I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
> of
> > newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or something,
> > culturally speaking.
>
> I have not seen any evidence that this trend of yours is widespread.
> The Python code I come across seems pretty normal to me.  Expressive and
> readable.  Haven't seen any attempt to turn Python into Perl or that
> sort of thing.  And I don't see that culture expressed on the list.
> Maybe I'm just blind...


I'm thinking mostly of stackoverflow, but here's an example I ran into (a
lot of) on a job:

somevar = some_complicated_thing(somevar) if
some_other_complicated_thing(somevar) else somevar

Would it really be so bad to just use an if statement?  Why are we
assigning somevar to itself?  This sort of thing was strewn across 3 or 4
physical lines at a time.
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From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 19:20:27 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:20:27 -0700
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A269CB.9080704@gmail.com>

On 12/06/2013 05:14 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I'm thinking mostly of stackoverflow, but here's an example I ran into (a
> lot of) on a job:
> 
> somevar = some_complicated_thing(somevar) if
> some_other_complicated_thing(somevar) else somevar
> 
> Would it really be so bad to just use an if statement?  Why are we
> assigning somevar to itself?  This sort of thing was strewn across 3 or 4
> physical lines at a time.

You're right that a conventional "if" block is not only more readable,
but also faster and more efficient code.  Sorry you have to deal with
code written like that!  That'd frustrate any sane programmer.  It might
bother me enough to write code to reformat the program to convert that
style to something sane!  There are times when the ternary (did I get
that right?) operator is useful and clear.


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 19:39:50 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:39:50 -0500
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52A269CB.9080704@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A269CB.9080704@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wVhVUUbgReddQbowMMCf8OzAF+Q1s3yfByQZ2vbOqtbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/06/2013 05:14 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> > I'm thinking mostly of stackoverflow, but here's an example I ran into (a
> > lot of) on a job:
> >
> > somevar = some_complicated_thing(somevar) if
> > some_other_complicated_thing(somevar) else somevar
> >
> > Would it really be so bad to just use an if statement?  Why are we
> > assigning somevar to itself?  This sort of thing was strewn across 3 or 4
> > physical lines at a time.
>
> You're right that a conventional "if" block is not only more readable,
> but also faster and more efficient code.  Sorry you have to deal with
> code written like that!  That'd frustrate any sane programmer.  It might
> bother me enough to write code to reformat the program to convert that
> style to something sane!  There are times when the ternary (did I get
> that right?) operator is useful and clear.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

While it seems to be a higher status in the team to write new code as
compared to fixing old code, so much can be learned by having to plough
through old code.  To learn others coding style, pick up new understanding,
and most importantly totally disabuse yourself of trying to be cute with
code.  Code is read by the machine and by the programmer.  The programmer
is the one who should be deferred to, imo.  You buy the machine, you rent
the programmer by the hour!

Aside from django urls, I am not sure I ever wrote regexes in python.  For
some reason they must seem awfully sexy to quite a few people.  Back to my
point above -- ever try to figure out a complicated regex written by
someone else?



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 19:56:54 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:56:54 -0500
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A269CB.9080704@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3682.1386376799.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-3E8F7F.19565406122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3682.1386376799.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:

> Aside from django urls, I am not sure I ever wrote regexes in python.  For
> some reason they must seem awfully sexy to quite a few people.  Back to my
> point above -- ever try to figure out a complicated regex written by
> someone else?

Regex has a bad rap in the Python community.  To be sure, you can abuse 
them, and write horrible monstrosities.  On the other hand, stuff like 
this (slightly reformatted for posting):

pattern = re.compile(
        r'haproxy\[(?P<pid>\d+)]: '
        r'(?P<client_ip>(\d{1,3}\.){3}\d{1,3}):'
        r'(?P<client_port>\d{1,5}) '
        r'\[(?P<accept_date>\d{2}/\w{3}/\d{4}(:\d{2}){3}\.\d{3})] '
        r'(?P<frontend_name>\S+) '
        r'(?P<backend_name>\S+)/'
        r'(?P<server_name>\S+) '
        r'(?P<Tq>(-1|\d+))/'
        r'(?P<Tw>(-1|\d+))/'
        r'(?P<Tc>(-1|\d+))/'
        r'(?P<Tr>(-1|\d+))/'
        r'(?P<Tt>\+?\d+) '
        r'(?P<status_code>\d{3}) '
        r'(?P<bytes_read>\d+) '
        r'(?P<captured_request_cookie>\S+) '
        r'(?P<captured_response_cookie>\S+) '
        r'(?P<termination_state>[\w-]{4}) '
        r'(?P<actconn>\d+)/'
        r'(?P<feconn>\d+)/'
        r'(?P<beconn>\d+)/'
        r'(?P<srv_conn>\d+)/'
        r'(?P<retries>\d+) '
        r'(?P<srv_queue>\d+)/'
        r'(?P<backend_queue>\d+) '
        r'(\{(?P<request_id>.*?)\} )?'   # Comment out for stock haproxy
        r'(\{(?P<captured_request_headers>.*?)\} )?'
        r'(\{(?P<captured_response_headers>.*?)\} )?'
        r'"(?P<http_request>.+)"'
        )

while intimidating at first glance, really isn't that hard to 
understand.  Python's raw string literals, adjacent string literal 
catenation, and automatic line continuation team up to eliminate a lot 
of extra fluff.


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec  6 21:28:27 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 02:28:27 GMT
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 17:20:27 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

> On 12/06/2013 05:14 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> I'm thinking mostly of stackoverflow, but here's an example I ran into
>> (a lot of) on a job:
>> 
>> somevar = some_complicated_thing(somevar) if
>> some_other_complicated_thing(somevar) else somevar
>> 
>> Would it really be so bad to just use an if statement?  Why are we
>> assigning somevar to itself?  This sort of thing was strewn across 3 or
>> 4 physical lines at a time.

Unless you're embedding it in another statement, there's no advantage to 
using the ternary if operator if the clauses are so large you have to 
split the line over two or more lines in the first place. I agree that:

result = (spam(x) + eggs(x) + toast(x) 
          if x and condition(x) or another_condition(x)
          else foo(x) + bar(x) + foobar(x))
 
is probably better written as:

if x and condition(x) or another_condition(x):
    result = spam(x) + eggs(x) + toast(x)
else:
    result = foo(x) + bar(x) + foobar(x)


The ternary if is slightly unusual and unfamiliar, and is best left for 
when you need an expression:

ingredients = [spam, eggs, cheese, toast if flag else bread, tomato]


As for your second complaint, "why are we assigning somevar to itself", I 
see nothing wrong with that. Better that than a plethora of variables 
used only once:


# Screw this for a game of soldiers.
def function(arg, param_as_list_or_string):
    if isinstance(param_as_list_or_string, str):
        param = param_as_list_or_string.split()
    else:
        param = param_as_list_or_string


# Better.
def function(arg, param):
    if isinstance(param, str):
        param = param.split()


"Replace x with a transformed version of x" is a perfectly legitimate 
technique, and not one which ought to be too hard to follow.


> You're right that a conventional "if" block is not only more readable,
> but also faster and more efficient code.

Really? I don't think so. This is using Python 2.7:


[steve at ando ~]$ python -m timeit --setup="flag = 0" \
> "if flag: y=1
> else: y=2"
10000000 loops, best of 3: 0.0836 usec per loop

[steve at ando ~]$ python -m timeit --setup="flag = 0" "y = 1 if flag else 2"
10000000 loops, best of 3: 0.0813 usec per loop


There's practically nothing between the two, but the ternary if operator 
is marginally faster.

As for readability, I accept that ternary if is unusual compared to other 
languages, but it's still quite readable in small doses. If you start 
chaining them:

result = a if condition else b if flag else c if predicate else d 

you probably shouldn't.


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 21:40:13 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 13:40:13 +1100
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrNp6bv0ck97gE7ZLLYEb-chVFZgy0mAbcuZtMBY3Fmwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> As for readability, I accept that ternary if is unusual compared to other
> languages...

All the C-derived ternary operators put the condition first, but
Python puts the condition in the middle. What that does for
readability I don't really know. Which is more important?

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 22:27:00 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:27:00 -0500
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> The ternary if is slightly unusual and unfamiliar

It's only unusual an unfamiliar if you're not used to using it :-)  
Coming from a C/C++ background, I always found the lack of a ternary 
expression rather limiting.  There was much rejoicing in these parts 
when it was added to the language relatively recently.  I use them a lot.

On the other hand, I found list comprehensions to be mind-bogglingly 
confusing when I first saw them (read: slightly unusual and unfamiliar).  
It took me a long time to warm up to the concept.  Now I love them.

> As for readability, I accept that ternary if is unusual compared to other 
> languages, but it's still quite readable in small doses. If you start 
> chaining them:
> 
> result = a if condition else b if flag else c if predicate else d 
> 
> you probably shouldn't.

That I agree with (and it's just as true in C as it is in Python).

Just for fun, I took a look through the Songza code base.  66 kloc of 
non-whitespace Python.  I found 192 ternary expressions.  Here's a few 
of the more bizarre ones (none of which I consider remotely readable):

--------------------------------------------------
extracols = sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))) if 
tracks else []
--------------------------------------------------
c2s = compids2songs(set(targets.keys()) | 
set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),self.docmap,self.logger) if 
targets else {}
--------------------------------------------------
code = 2 if (pmp3,paac)==(mmp3,maac) else 3 if any(x is None for x in 
(pmp3,paac,mmp3,maac)) else 4
--------------------------------------------------

Anybody else have some fun ternary abuse examples?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 23:06:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 15:06:00 +1100
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp4XZ-mJg7X4NMerFHe9hDrqLH2wOxJJ_+zKCdJPzKr=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> extracols = sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))) if
> tracks else []
> --------------------------------------------------
> c2s = compids2songs(set(targets.keys()) |
> set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),self.docmap,self.logger) if
> targets else {}

Easy rewrites:

extracols = tracks and sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks)))

Assumes that tracks is a list, which it most likely is given the
context. Parallel with the other.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec  7 06:27:47 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 11:27:47 GMT
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:27:00 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> Just for fun, I took a look through the Songza code base.  66 kloc of
> non-whitespace Python.  I found 192 ternary expressions.  Here's a few
> of the more bizarre ones (none of which I consider remotely readable):
> 
> -------------------------------------------------- 
> extracols = ( sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks)))
>               if tracks else [] )

[extra parentheses added so I can split the line over two]

I actually don't find that too bad, readability-wise. Not ideal, but I 
can follow it. However, I wonder why t.data.keys() is converted to a set 
before being unpacked? Even assuming that data.keys are not necessarily 
unique, wouldn't building the union make them so?

extracols = ( sorted(set.union(*(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks)))
              if tracks else [] )


Also, you can get rid of the `if tracks` check altogether by using a 
bound method instead of an unbound method:

extracols = sorted(set().union(*(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))

ought to work even if tracks is empty.



-- 
Steven


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Sat Dec  7 07:41:17 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 14:41:17 +0200
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Steven D'Aprano writes:

> On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:27:00 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > Just for fun, I took a look through the Songza code base.  66 kloc of
> > non-whitespace Python.  I found 192 ternary expressions.  Here's a few
> > of the more bizarre ones (none of which I consider remotely readable):
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------- 
> > extracols = ( sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks)))
> >               if tracks else [] )
> 
> [extra parentheses added so I can split the line over two]
> 
> I actually don't find that too bad, readability-wise. Not ideal, but I 
> can follow it. However, I wonder why t.data.keys() is converted to a set 
> before being unpacked? Even assuming that data.keys are not necessarily 
> unique, wouldn't building the union make them so?
> 
> extracols = ( sorted(set.union(*(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks)))
>               if tracks else [] )
> 
> 
> Also, you can get rid of the `if tracks` check altogether by using a 
> bound method instead of an unbound method:
> 
> extracols = sorted(set().union(*(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))
> 
> ought to work even if tracks is empty.

I suspect in the original code tracks could be None (or False) and
then the part of the code that bombs is 'for t in tracks' because
tracks is not iterable.

One could write [f(t) for t in tracks or []] and it wouldn't be blamed
on a binary operator - or maybe it would - but I suspect the cleaner
design would be to first make sure that an empty tracks is an empty
list (or an empty whatever-it-needs-to-be):

  if tracks is None:
     tracks = []
  ...
  extracols = sorted(set.union(*(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))

Still, is t.data.keys() a collection of sets? Maybe frozensets? And
then their unions are being sorted by set inclusion, which is not a
total order. Does sorted work correctly with a partial order? I don't
think it does.


From sg552 at hotmail.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 11:13:09 2013
From: sg552 at hotmail.co.uk (Rotwang)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:13:09 +0000
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>

On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> [...]
>
>    if tracks is None:
>       tracks = []

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like 
this at the start of functions:

     tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks

or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed 
non-default Falsey values:

     tracks = tracks or something

Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary 
operator should be preferred to the above?


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 11:26:42 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 09:26:42 -0700
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <52A34C42.9040408@gmail.com>

On 12/07/2013 09:13 AM, Rotwang wrote:
> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>    if tracks is None:
>>       tracks = []
> 
> Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like 
> this at the start of functions:
> 
>      tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks
> 
> or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed 
> non-default Falsey values:
> 
>      tracks = tracks or something
> 
> Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary 
> operator should be preferred to the above?

I think for such a short operation, and for a common need like this,
what you do is fine.  Personally I prefer the part you quoted from
Jussi, but your examples are just fine for correctness and readability.
 I think Dan's gripes come when cleverness is taken to the extreme.


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec  7 11:25:07 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 16:25:07 GMT
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <52a34be2$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:13:09 +0000, Rotwang wrote:

> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>    if tracks is None:
>>       tracks = []
> 
> Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like
> this at the start of functions:
> 
>      tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks
> 
> or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed
> non-default Falsey values:
> 
>      tracks = tracks or something
> 
> Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary
> operator should be preferred to the above?

Only if you need to support Python 2.4, which doesn't have the ternary if 
operator :-)



-- 
Steven


From sg552 at hotmail.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 21:23:49 2013
From: sg552 at hotmail.co.uk (Rotwang)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 02:23:49 +0000
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52a34be2$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>	<52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>	<CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>	<mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>	<52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
 <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
 <52a34be2$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l80l7m$c5t$1@dont-email.me>

On 07/12/2013 16:25, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:13:09 +0000, Rotwang wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>     if tracks is None:
>>>        tracks = []
>>
>> Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like
>> this at the start of functions:
>>
>>       tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks
>>
>> or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed
>> non-default Falsey values:
>>
>>       tracks = tracks or something
>>
>> Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary
>> operator should be preferred to the above?
>
> Only if you need to support Python 2.4, which doesn't have the ternary if
> operator :-)

Thanks, and likewise to everyone else who replied.



From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Sat Dec  7 12:49:57 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 19:49:57 +0200
Subject: One liners
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <qot1u1omtyy.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Rotwang writes:

> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >    if tracks is None:
> >       tracks = []
> 
> Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like
> this at the start of functions:
> 
>      tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks
> 
> or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed
> non-default Falsey values:
> 
>      tracks = tracks or something
> 
> Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary
> operator should be preferred to the above?

My motivation is that the "one-armed if" highlights the condition,
together with the fact that nothing is changed unless the condition
holds. That said, I'm also fine with the forms you use.

On another tangent, I wish people called the conditional expression
the conditional expression. The number of its slots is about the least
salient property of the thing. :)


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec  7 16:02:26 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:02:26 -0500
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <52a30632$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <qotfvq4suj6.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi> <l7vhem$tf1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l802cr$b8r$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/7/2013 11:13 AM, Rotwang wrote:
> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>    if tracks is None:
>>       tracks = []
>
> Sorry to go off on a tangent, but in my code I often have stuff like
> this at the start of functions:
>
>      tracks = something if tracks is None else tracks
>
> or, in the case where I don't intend for the function to be passed
> non-default Falsey values:
>
>      tracks = tracks or something
>
> Is there any reason why the two-line version that avoids the ternary
> operator should be preferred to the above?

The 'extra' line is not necessary, as one can write

if tracks is None: tracks = [] # or something

I prefer this because it exactly expresses what one want done. The other 
branch

else: tracks = tracks

is superfluous and to me unaesthetic.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 11:56:04 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 09:56:04 -0700
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52A35324.9050504@gmail.com>

On 12/06/2013 08:27 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>  Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
>> The ternary if is slightly unusual and unfamiliar
> 
> It's only unusual an unfamiliar if you're not used to using it :-)  
> Coming from a C/C++ background, I always found the lack of a ternary 
> expression rather limiting.  There was much rejoicing in these parts 
> when it was added to the language relatively recently.  I use them a lot.
> 
> On the other hand, I found list comprehensions to be mind-bogglingly 
> confusing when I first saw them (read: slightly unusual and unfamiliar).  
> It took me a long time to warm up to the concept.  Now I love them.
> 
>> As for readability, I accept that ternary if is unusual compared to other 
>> languages, but it's still quite readable in small doses. If you start 
>> chaining them:
>>
>> result = a if condition else b if flag else c if predicate else d 
>>
>> you probably shouldn't.
> 
> That I agree with (and it's just as true in C as it is in Python).
> 
> Just for fun, I took a look through the Songza code base.  66 kloc of 
> non-whitespace Python.  I found 192 ternary expressions.  Here's a few 
> of the more bizarre ones (none of which I consider remotely readable):
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> extracols = sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))) if 
> tracks else []

This is a generator expressions, and ternary ifs are common and often
needed in generator expressions.

> --------------------------------------------------
> c2s = compids2songs(set(targets.keys()) | 
> set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),self.docmap,self.logger) if 
> targets else {}

I suspect the ternary distracted you on this one.  The ternary here is
needed because if targets is None the expression fails.  This part
anyway is a common idiom.

The rest is basically making a set (list of unique items only) of the
combined keys and values from the "targets" dictionary.  Now I'm not
sure why the programmer needs do this, but nevertheless that's what it's
doing.  set.union is used because that can iterate over a list of sets,
which is what the map returns.  I suppose they could have done this, but
it wouldn't be much clearer unless you knew what sets, map and
itervalues do:

if targets:
    c2s = compids2songs(
            set(targets.keys()) |
              set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),
            self.docmap,
            self.logger )
else:
   c2s = {}

In any case the ternary operator isn't really the part you were
complaining about.  Personally if I needed to do this particular
operation a lot (combine keys and values into a set), I'd write a
function that returned the set.  Still can't avoid the ternary, though,
unless you made compids2songs a little smarter (and we don't know what
compids2songs does with an empty set):

def dict_keys_and_values_set (some_dict):
   return set(some_dict.keys()) |
            set.union(*map(set,some_dict.itervalues()))

c2s = compids2songs( dict_keys_and_values_set(targets) ) if targets else {}

or I suppose you could o this:

c2s = {}
if targets: c2s = compids2songs( dict_keys_and_values_set(targets) )

Just a matter of taste.

> --------------------------------------------------
> code = 2 if (pmp3,paac)==(mmp3,maac) else 3 if any(x is None for x in 
> (pmp3,paac,mmp3,maac)) else 4
> --------------------------------------------------

This one probably could stand to be reworked for sure!  A standard if
block would be much clearer.  Definitely an example of a programmer
thinking he was clever... maybe a git bisect could identify the author
and we can shame him.

> Anybody else have some fun ternary abuse examples?

Only the last one seems to be problematic to me.


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 12:02:27 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 10:02:27 -0700
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52A35324.9050504@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com> <52A35324.9050504@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A354A3.1050904@gmail.com>

On 12/07/2013 09:56 AM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> extracols = sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))) if 
>> tracks else []
> 
> This is a generator expressions, and ternary ifs are common and often
> needed in generator expressions.

Oops. This is not a generator expression at all!


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 12:10:50 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 09:10:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3703.1386435393.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3678.1386375653.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a287cb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-10E325.22270006122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3703.1386435393.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9052b1e1-7113-4dd9-8450-c04768ec559d@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 7, 2013 10:26:04 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/06/2013 08:27 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> >  Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> >> The ternary if is slightly unusual and unfamiliar
> > It's only unusual an unfamiliar if you're not used to using it :-)  
> > Coming from a C/C++ background, I always found the lack of a ternary 
> > expression rather limiting.  There was much rejoicing in these parts 
> > when it was added to the language relatively recently.  I use them a lot.
> > On the other hand, I found list comprehensions to be mind-bogglingly 
> > confusing when I first saw them (read: slightly unusual and unfamiliar).  
> > It took me a long time to warm up to the concept.  Now I love them.
> >> As for readability, I accept that ternary if is unusual compared to other 
> >> languages, but it's still quite readable in small doses. If you start 
> >> chaining them:
> >> result = a if condition else b if flag else c if predicate else d 
> >> you probably shouldn't.
> > That I agree with (and it's just as true in C as it is in Python).
> > Just for fun, I took a look through the Songza code base.  66 kloc of 
> > non-whitespace Python.  I found 192 ternary expressions.  Here's a few 
> > of the more bizarre ones (none of which I consider remotely readable):
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > extracols = sorted(set.union(*(set(t.data.keys()) for t in tracks))) if 
> > tracks else []

> This is a generator expressions, and ternary ifs are common and often
> needed in generator expressions.

> > --------------------------------------------------
> > c2s = compids2songs(set(targets.keys()) | 
> > set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),self.docmap,self.logger) if 
> > targets else {}

> I suspect the ternary distracted you on this one.  The ternary here is
> needed because if targets is None the expression fails.  This part
> anyway is a common idiom.

> The rest is basically making a set (list of unique items only) of the
> combined keys and values from the "targets" dictionary.  Now I'm not
> sure why the programmer needs do this, but nevertheless that's what it's
> doing.  set.union is used because that can iterate over a list of sets,
> which is what the map returns.  I suppose they could have done this, but
> it wouldn't be much clearer unless you knew what sets, map and
> itervalues do:

> if targets:
>     c2s = compids2songs(
>             set(targets.keys()) |
>               set.union(*map(set,targets.itervalues())),
>             self.docmap,
>             self.logger )
> else:
>    c2s = {}

> In any case the ternary operator isn't really the part you were
> complaining about.  Personally if I needed to do this particular
> operation a lot (combine keys and values into a set), I'd write a
> function that returned the set.  Still can't avoid the ternary, though,
> unless you made compids2songs a little smarter (and we don't know what
> compids2songs does with an empty set):

> def dict_keys_and_values_set (some_dict):
>    return set(some_dict.keys()) |
>             set.union(*map(set,some_dict.itervalues()))

> c2s = compids2songs( dict_keys_and_values_set(targets) ) if targets else {}

> or I suppose you could o this:

> c2s = {}
> if targets: c2s = compids2songs( dict_keys_and_values_set(targets) )

> Just a matter of taste.

> > --------------------------------------------------
> > code = 2 if (pmp3,paac)==(mmp3,maac) else 3 if any(x is None for x in 
> > (pmp3,paac,mmp3,maac)) else 4
> > --------------------------------------------------

Just trying to rewrite that in a way which I try to use for long if-exprs

code =  2    if (pmp3,paac)==(mmp3,maac)                       else
        3    if any(x is None for x in (pmp3,paac,mmp3,maac))  else
        4


> This one probably could stand to be reworked for sure!  A standard if
> block would be much clearer.  Definitely an example of a programmer
> thinking he was clever... maybe a git bisect could identify the author
> and we can shame him.


The logic for writing (and hopefully reading) it this way is like this:

In math we often have equations that are defined by cases -- typically typeset 
with a large curly bracket.  Those else's hanging at the end are to be read as
a signal to read this whole expr and though under a big curly brace.


From rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 19:41:13 2013
From: rasmussen.bryan at gmail.com (bryan rasmussen)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 01:41:13 +0100
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A26763.3070803@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rsP3rU6X30W_ocF8vNrPrLBrivT+nCv-1htgehmPZWrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHKsR69pMu54PBrRJy8V0vqS9CWaFVi3oe-79ZsMHpU3Euu9mw@mail.gmail.com>

Someone was thinking in ruby there.



On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 1:14 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/06/2013 04:54 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> > Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
>> direction
>> > of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary variables
>> > with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under the sun?
>> >
>> > What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful
>> emphasis on
>> > readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder
>> than
>> > writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string
>> methods?
>> >
>> > I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
>> of
>> > newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or something,
>> > culturally speaking.
>>
>> I have not seen any evidence that this trend of yours is widespread.
>> The Python code I come across seems pretty normal to me.  Expressive and
>> readable.  Haven't seen any attempt to turn Python into Perl or that
>> sort of thing.  And I don't see that culture expressed on the list.
>> Maybe I'm just blind...
>
>
> I'm thinking mostly of stackoverflow, but here's an example I ran into (a
> lot of) on a job:
>
> somevar = some_complicated_thing(somevar) if
> some_other_complicated_thing(somevar) else somevar
>
> Would it really be so bad to just use an if statement?  Why are we
> assigning somevar to itself?  This sort of thing was strewn across 3 or 4
> physical lines at a time.
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec  6 21:07:13 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 07 Dec 2013 02:07:13 GMT
Subject: One liners
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:54:22 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
> direction of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary
> variables with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under
> the sun?

All those things are stylistic issues, not language issues. Yes, I see 
far too many people trying to squeeze three lines of code into one, but 
that's their choice, not the language leading them that way.

On the other hand, Python code style is influenced strongly by functional 
languages like Lisp, Scheme and Haskell (despite the radically different 
syntax). Python has even been described approvingly as "Lisp without the 
brackets". To somebody coming from a C or Pascal procedural background, 
or a Java OOP background, such functional-style code might seem too 
concise and/or weird. But frankly, I think that such programmers would 
write better code with a more functional approach. I refuse to apologise 
for writing the one-liner:

result = [func(item) for item in sequence]

instead of four:

result = []
for i in range(len(sequence)):
    item = sequence[i]
    result.append(func(item))


> What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis
> on readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder
> than writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string
> methods?

What about string methods?

As far as classes go, I find that they're nearly always overkill. Most of 
the time, a handful of pre-written standard classes, like dict, list, 
namedtuple and the like, get me 90% of the way to where I need to go.

The beauty of Python is that it is a multi-paradigm language. You can 
write imperative, procedural, functional, OOP, or pipelining style (and 
probably more). The bad thing about Python is that if you're reading 
other people's code you *need* to be familiar with all those styles.


> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
> of newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or
> something, culturally speaking.

They're probably writing code using the idioms they are used to from 
whatever language they have come from. Newcomers nearly always do this. 
The more newcomers you get, the less Pythonic the code you're going to 
see from them.


-- 
Steven


From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec  6 22:20:07 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2013 19:20:07 -0800
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_q3rQSY=5p0DjqTC5327Kap-hDvVA8V1V_D12avp-fM3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 15:54:22 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> > Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
> > direction of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary
> > variables with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under
> > the sun?
>
> All those things are stylistic issues, not language issues. Yes, I see
> far too many people trying to squeeze three lines of code into one, but
> that's their choice, not the language leading them that way.
>

Yes, stylistic, or even "cultural".


> I refuse to apologise
> for writing the one-liner:
>
> result = [func(item) for item in sequence]
>
> instead of four:
>
> result = []
> for i in range(len(sequence)):
>     item = sequence[i]
>     result.append(func(item))
>
IMO, this is a time when the one liner is more clear.  But if you start
trying to stretch that to extremes, it becomes worse instead of better.

>
> > What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis
> > on readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder
> > than writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string
> > methods?
>
> What about string methods?
>
A lot of things people do with regex's, could be done with string methods
more clearly and concisely.

The beauty of Python is that it is a multi-paradigm language. You can
> write imperative, procedural, functional, OOP, or pipelining style (and
> probably more). The bad thing about Python is that if you're reading
> other people's code you *need* to be familiar with all those styles.
>

That's fine.  That's appropriate.   But I imagine any of these can be done
with the intention of being more clever than clear.

BTW, what's pipelining style?  Like bash?

> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
> of newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or
> something, culturally speaking.

They're probably writing code using the idioms they are used to from
> whatever language they have come from. Newcomers nearly always do this.
> The more newcomers you get, the less Pythonic the code you're going to
> see from them.
>

Nod.
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From neilc at norwich.edu  Mon Dec  9 08:49:24 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 13:49:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: One liners
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_q3rQSY=5p0DjqTC5327Kap-hDvVA8V1V_D12avp-fM3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l84hp4$nh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-07, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> BTW, what's pipelining style?  Like bash?

I think, in Python, it might refer to composing your program of
a series of generators.

names = (p.name for p in db.query_people() if p.total_purchases > 0)
names = (n.upper() for n in names)
names = (n for n in names if not n.startswith("Q"))
for n in names:
   # Finally actually do something.

Coincidentally it's a nice way to break up an ugly one-liner. I
also really like that if I choose to no longer filter out
customers whose name begins with Q, I can just comment out that
one line. Try doing that with the one-liner version!

>> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels
>> like a lot of newcomers are trying their best to turn Python
>> into Perl or something, culturally speaking.
>
>> They're probably writing code using the idioms they are used
>> to from whatever language they have come from. Newcomers
>> nearly always do this. The more newcomers you get, the less
>> Pythonic the code you're going to see from them.
>
> Nod.

That's the sound of practicality slapping purity with a fish. A
new Python programmer can generally just get her code working in
a fairly comfortable way, then possibly rewrite it once her first
few programs become horrifying years later.

I haven't found time to rewrite all of mine yet. I still have a
program I use almost every day with an __init__ that returns
invalid objects but helpfully sets self.valid to 0.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:59:23 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:59:23 +1100
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <l84hp4$nh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_q3rQSY=5p0DjqTC5327Kap-hDvVA8V1V_D12avp-fM3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <l84hp4$nh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrGQSsUHnOJ6nqGnzOsde_TaTP2Jiq3ru1Kg7wEYiU82g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 12:49 AM, Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
> names = (p.name for p in db.query_people() if p.total_purchases > 0)
> names = (n.upper() for n in names)
> names = (n for n in names if not n.startswith("Q"))
> for n in names:
>    # Finally actually do something.
>
> Coincidentally it's a nice way to break up an ugly one-liner. I
> also really like that if I choose to no longer filter out
> customers whose name begins with Q, I can just comment out that
> one line. Try doing that with the one-liner version!

# With the restriction:
for n in (p.name.upper() for n in names if not n.startswith("Q")):

# Without the restriction:
for n in (p.name.upper() for n in names ):# if not n.startswith("Q")):

You just have to use the special "comment-out-partially" operator,
which looks like "):#" and is inspired by some kind of insane smiley
with weird hair.

ChrisA
(Anyone got the cheek de-tonguer handy?)


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec  6 22:53:07 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2013 22:53:07 -0500
Subject: One liners
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3695.1386386415.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-6E31DC.22530606122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3695.1386386415.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> A lot of things people do with regex's, could be done with string methods
> more clearly and concisely.

That is true.  The problem is, there are a lot of things for which regex 
is the right tool, but people get out of practice using them (or never 
learned how) because they gravitate to string methods for most tasks.

It's like any sharp tool.  When skillfully handled, they're excellent at 
the tasks they were designed for.  But, if you don't practice the 
necessary skills, you end up just re-enacting the Black Night Sketch.


From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  9 22:36:57 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 03:36:57 GMT
Subject: One liners
References: <mailman.3674.1386374070.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a282d1$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3695.1386386415.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a68c59$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 06 Dec 2013 19:20:07 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 6:07 PM, Steven D'Aprano <
> steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

>> The beauty of Python is that it is a multi-paradigm language. You can
>> write imperative, procedural, functional, OOP, or pipelining style (and
>> probably more). The bad thing about Python is that if you're reading
>> other people's code you *need* to be familiar with all those styles.
>>
>>
> That's fine.  That's appropriate.   But I imagine any of these can be
> done with the intention of being more clever than clear.
> 
> BTW, what's pipelining style?  Like bash?

Yes, correct. You have a data stream and you pass it through various 
filters to process it.

David Beazley has some nice examples of writing pipelining code:

http://www.dabeaz.com/generators/index.html



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 16:10:30 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 21:10:30 +0000
Subject: One liners
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_o1TS02cosi+q9YeN5rnWJxe5mU7xtCTuTMZGO0ntF5TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l802s1$g08$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 06/12/2013 23:54, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> Does anyone else feel like Python is being dragged too far in the
> direction of long, complex, multiline one-liners?  Or avoiding temporary
> variables with descriptive names?  Or using regex's for everything under
> the sun?
>
> What happened to using classes?  What happened to the beautiful emphasis
> on readability?  What happened to debuggability (which is always harder
> than writing things in the first place)?  And what happened to string
> methods?
>
> I'm pleased to see Python getting more popular, but it feels like a lot
> of newcomers are trying their best to turn Python into Perl or
> something, culturally speaking.
>

I see all of the above as being down to poor quality programmers who are 
new to Python and have their priorities wrong.  The following is 
extracted from Steve Maguire's "Writing Solid Code".  It's my belief 
that this is a reasonable summing up.

Jack's Priority List      Jill's Priority List
Correctness               Correctness
Global efficiency         Testability
Size                      Global efficiency
Local efficiency          Maintainability/clarity
Personal convenience      Consistency
Maintainability/clarity   Size
Personal expression       Local efficiency
Testability               Personal expression
Consistency               Personal convenience

Jill wants to write good quality, Pythonic code, Jack doesn't, yep?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From d.joshi84 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 03:53:04 2013
From: d.joshi84 at gmail.com (Unix SA)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 14:23:04 +0530
Subject: New Project for rpm spec file creation
Message-ID: <CACDG_Ke-foRW5t=iJs6nE1JM1DmetZPQUyHpGhH9njDmbOZs9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Guys,

I am starting new project on github for rpm spec file creation .. currently
repository is empty and i am looking for ideas from the people who are
experts in creating rpms for different applications ....

please share your ideas to me .. . currently what i know is i can have some
template file for .SPEC file and i can ask some inputs from users and
update that template file .. but looks like there are lot of template i
will have to look in .. so if you got any better idea, please clone my
repository and help to contribute.. .. or just reply back with your ideas..

Thanks in advance.

https://github.com/dhajoshi/rpm-spec-generator

Regards,
DJ
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From advanced.world.unlimited at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 07:41:28 2013
From: advanced.world.unlimited at gmail.com (Eamonn Rea)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 12:41:28 +0000
Subject: Centring text in a rect in PyGame?
Message-ID: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>

First of all. I?d like to say I have no idea how these ?mailing lists? work, so I don?t know if this?ll come through right, but we?ll see I guess :-) I?m coming from the Google Group comp.lang.python, and was suggested to use this instead. Assuming attachments and images work, you should have an image of my code?s result and the attached code files.

Anyway, I have a problem. In my game, I want to draw a button. I?ve gotten the button to draw fine, but I want some text on the button. I?ve gotten the text to draw, but I can?t get it to centre into the button. Here?s the code I?ve used:

self.surface.blit(self.button_text, (self.width / 2 - self.button_text.get_width() / 2, self.height / 2 - self.button_text.get_height() / 2))

self.width is the width of the button, and same goes for self.height. self.button_text is a surface, so I can just call get_width() and get_height() on it because it?s a surface I believe. Here?s the code for drawing the button and it?s border (I have a little border around the button because it?s how I want it to look for my game):

pygame.draw.rect(
            self.surface, self.button_color, Rect((self.x, self.y), (self.width, self.height)))

pygame.draw.rect(
            self.surface, self.border_color, Rect((self.x, self.y), (self.width, self.height)), self.border_width)

I really don?t know why it isn?t centring it. Here?s an image of what I get as a result:



Code files should be attached :-)


Thanks! Any help is appreciated!

My code is formatted the way it is due to my Sublime Text 2 PEP8 auto formatter. I quite like it, actually, and sorry if you find it hard to read :/


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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Sun Dec  8 09:06:04 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 14:06:04 +0000
Subject: Centring text in a rect in PyGame?
In-Reply-To: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>
References: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A47CCC.5060206@timgolden.me.uk>

On 07/12/2013 12:41, Eamonn Rea wrote:
> First of all. I?d like to say I have no idea how these ?mailing lists?
> work, so I don?t know if this?ll come through right, but we?ll see I
> guess :-) I?m coming from the Google Group comp.lang.python, and was
> suggested to use this instead. Assuming attachments and images work, you
> should have an image of my code?s result and the attached code files.

[... snip HTML text, images & attached code files ...]

Hi Eamonn.

I'm one of the list owners so this reply is about list etiquette rather 
than the pygame issue you're having :) I'm taking advantage of your 
self-professed ignorance to make some general points which other might 
find helpful. I hope you don't mind.

First: python-list mirrors comp.lang.python and vice versa (either via 
nntp or via Google Groups). However GG has, for the last while, been 
responsible for disrupting the text it passes through -- extra line 
spaces etc. -- with the result that mailing list or newsgroup readers 
find it very frustrating to read GG-formatted versions of messages. I 
expect that's why you were pointed towards the mailing list. It's also 
possible to access via comp.lang.python on Usenet; or 
comp.python.general on gmane.

In general, while it's technically possible to post screenshots and to 
attach code files to the mailing list, it's not encouraged. At least 
partly that's because those who read via Usenet probably won't see them. 
Even those of us reading via mailing list may find it harder to read 
your post if it's spread out among multiple files.

And to complete the list, you should post in plain text rather than HTML 
or rich-text. For much the same reasons. In short, the mailing list and 
the newsgroup it mirrors are best treated as plain text only.

Another reason for discouraging screen / code dumps is that the very 
fact of narrowing down a small, repeatable segment of code with which to 
illustrate the issue can actually lead to your seeing the problem 
anyway! Even if it doesn't it's *much* easier for the other list members 
to comprehend / try out a small code segment than to read through your 
whole code.

If push comes to shove, you can post code on a pastebin service -- but 
that is frowned upon by some, both because of the need to link to an 
unknown URL and because the code you post may not be there in 2 years 
time when someone having the same issue is following this thread to find 
help!

TJG


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 10:39:57 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 07:39:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Centring text in a rect in PyGame?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3729.1386511567.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3729.1386511567.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1812b2ad-4bf0-4a82-97dd-d1af39bff68c@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 7:36:04 PM UTC+5:30, Tim Golden wrote:
> On 07/12/2013 12:41, Eamonn Rea wrote:
> > First of all. Id like to say I have no idea how these mailing lists
> > work, so I dont know if this'll come through right, but we'll see I
> > guess :-) I'm coming from the Google Group comp.lang.python, and was
> > suggested to use this instead. Assuming attachments and images work, you
> > should have an image of my code???s result and the attached code files.

Hi Eamonn

There are some new instructions/suggestions to make google groups
easier on you (and other readers!)

https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

If you try them and they work (or even if they dont!) please let me know.

Particularly note the new section at the end
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython#Automatic_correction_.28EXPERIMENTAL.29


From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Sun Dec  8 10:42:44 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:42:44 +0000
Subject: Centring text in a rect in PyGame?
In-Reply-To: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>
References: <2BF41548-E665-4678-ACDE-2222C07C3E78@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A49374.90302@timgolden.me.uk>

On 07/12/2013 12:41, Eamonn Rea wrote:
> Anyway, I have a problem. In my game, I want to draw a button. I?ve
> gotten the button to draw fine, but I want some text on the button. I?ve
> gotten the text to draw, but I can?t get it to centre into the button.
> Here?s the code I?ve used:
>
> *self.surface.blit(self.button_text, (self.width / 2 -
> self.button_text.get_width() / 2, self.height / 2 -
> self.button_text.get_height() / 2))*

Side-stepping your actual code, here's a handy thing in pygame. You can 
center one rect on another to achieve the same effect without bothering 
with the (x - y) / 2 stuff.

import pygame
pygame.init()

#
# For demo purposes, the button is the whole window
#

button = pygame.display.set_mode((400, 320))

#
# Create 12-point text in white saying "Hello, World!"
#
font = pygame.font.Font(pygame.font.get_default_font(), 12)
text = font.render("Hello, World!", True, (0xff, 0xff, 0xff))

#
# Use the text's rect to get width / height
# Then center that rect on the target surface
#
text_rect = text.get_rect()
text_rect.center = button.get_rect().center
button.blit(text, text_rect)

pygame.display.flip()



TJG


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 11:52:08 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:52:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
Message-ID: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>

I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but always shows the following error-message.
However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is not shown.

This is the quit error message:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
    from tkinter import ttk
ImportError: cannot import name ttk

This is the code:
#!/usr/bin/env python
from tkinter import *
from tkinter import ttk

def calculate(*args):
    try:
        value = float(feet.get())
        meters.set((0.3048 * value * 10000.0 + 0.5)/10000.0)
    except ValueError:
        pass
    
root = Tk()
root.title("Feet to Meters")

mainframe = ttk.Frame(root, padding="3 3 12 12")
mainframe.grid(column=0, row=0, sticky=(N, W, E, S))
mainframe.columnconfigure(0, weight=1)
mainframe.rowconfigure(0, weight=1)

feet = StringVar()
meters = StringVar()

feet_entry = ttk.Entry(mainframe, width=7, textvariable=feet)
feet_entry.grid(column=2, row=1, sticky=(W, E))

ttk.Label(mainframe, textvariable=meters).grid(column=2, row=2, sticky=(W, E))
ttk.Button(mainframe, text="Calculate", command=calculate).grid(column=3, row=3, sticky=W)

ttk.Label(mainframe, text="feet").grid(column=3, row=1, sticky=W)
ttk.Label(mainframe, text="is equivalent to").grid(column=1, row=2, sticky=E)
ttk.Label(mainframe, text="meters").grid(column=3, row=2, sticky=W)

for child in mainframe.winfo_children(): child.grid_configure(padx=5, pady=5)

feet_entry.focus()
root.bind('<Return>', calculate)

root.mainloop()

thanks in advance
jean


From davea at davea.name  Sat Dec  7 13:12:50 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 13:12:50 -0500
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.1101845216682379224@news.gmane.org>

On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:52:08 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois 
<jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code 
below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little 
popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but 
always shows the following error-message.
> However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is 
not shown.
> This is the quit error message:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
>     from tkinter import ttk
> ImportError: cannot import name ttk

> This is the code:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> from tkinter import *
> from tkinter import ttk

Thanks for supplying the complete traceback.  But you should also 
tell the python version and what OS.  I'll guess python 3.3 on Linux. 


Finally,  what version tk are you running?  These widgets were 
introduced in tk 8.5

Since it failed on the second import, none of the rest of the code 
matters. However, since you're not running it from a terminal window, 
it's conceivable that your ide is affecting the result.

-- 
DaveA



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec  7 16:11:35 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 16:11:35 -0500
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.1101845216682379224@news.gmane.org>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.1101845216682379224@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l802u0$gg7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/7/2013 1:12 PM, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:52:08 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois
> <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code
> below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little
> popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but always
> shows the following error-message.
>> However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is
> not shown.
>> This is the quit error message:
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
>>     from tkinter import ttk
>> ImportError: cannot import name ttk

That is supposed to work.

>> This is the code:
>> #!/usr/bin/env python
>> from tkinter import *
>> from tkinter import ttk
>
> Thanks for supplying the complete traceback.  But you should also tell
> the python version and what OS.  I'll guess python 3.3 on Linux.
>
> Finally,  what version tk are you running?  These widgets were
> introduced in tk 8.5

In 8.4, they were in the Tile extension. I do not know if that will 
work. Better, probably, to upgrade.
>
> Since it failed on the second import, none of the rest of the code
> matters. However, since you're not running it from a terminal window,
> it's conceivable that your ide is affecting the result.

Until you are able to import ttk, I believe you could remove the import 
and all 'ttk.' appearances, as I do not see anything ttk-specific.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From cousinstanley at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 13:23:30 2013
From: cousinstanley at gmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 11:23:30 -0700
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>


> .... 
> The only thing I see when running it is a little popup 
> with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected 
> but always shows the following error-message. 

  This seems to be left over from an earlier post
  where you were binding a mouse event to a tk label

  Did you create a  new  file ?


> However the "main" window which should let you enter the
> numbers is not shown.
> 
> This is the quit error message:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
> from tkinter import ttk
> ImportError: cannot import name ttk
> 
> This is the code:
> .... 

  If I copy/paste your code as posted
  into a new file named ftom.py
  and change the she-bang line
  as follows ....

    #!/usr/bin/env python3

  Then from the command line ....

    python3 ftom.py

  Your code runs as expected
  using python 3.2.3 ....


-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 02:45:06 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:45:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <3d9e313c-958f-4532-b968-0aee7f849246@googlegroups.com>

Op zaterdag 7 december 2013 19:23:30 UTC+1 schreef Cousin Stanley:
> > .... 
> 
> > The only thing I see when running it is a little popup 
> 
> > with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected 
> 
> > but always shows the following error-message. 
> 
> 
> 
>   This seems to be left over from an earlier post
> 
>   where you were binding a mouse event to a tk label
> 
> 
> 
>   Did you create a  new  file ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > However the "main" window which should let you enter the
> 
> > numbers is not shown.
> 
> > 
> 
> > This is the quit error message:
> 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> > File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
> 
> > from tkinter import ttk
> 
> > ImportError: cannot import name ttk
> 
> > 
> 
> > This is the code:
> 
> > .... 
> 
> 
> 
>   If I copy/paste your code as posted
> 
>   into a new file named ftom.py
> 
>   and change the she-bang line
> 
>   as follows ....
> 
> 
> 
>     #!/usr/bin/env python3
> 
> 
> 
>   Then from the command line ....
> 
> 
> 
>     python3 ftom.py
> 
> 
> 
>   Your code runs as expected
> 
>   using python 3.2.3 ....
I tried you suggestion above:

This is what I get:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./feet2meters.py", line 2, in <module>
    from tkinter import *
  File "/home/jean/tkinter.py", line 2, in <module>
    import Tkinter as tk
ImportError: No module named Tkinter

and this is my python3-version:
Python 3.2.3 (default, Sep 25 2013, 18:22:43) 
[GCC 4.6.3] on linux2

any idea what is going wrong?

thanks in advance
jean


From davea at davea.name  Sun Dec  8 09:16:25 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 09:16:25 -0500
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <3d9e313c-958f-4532-b968-0aee7f849246@googlegroups.com>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>
 <3d9e313c-958f-4532-b968-0aee7f849246@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.1879033687376288463@news.gmane.org>

On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:45:06 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois 
<jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is what I get:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./feet2meters.py", line 2, in <module>
>     from tkinter import *
>   File "/home/jean/tkinter.py", line 2, in <module>
>     import Tkinter as tk
> ImportError: No module named Tkinter

Regardless of your other fixes,  you should rename the bogus file:

/home/jean/tkinter.py

You very seldom want to have files that can shadow system modules.

-- 
DaveA



From cousinstanley at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 09:16:44 2013
From: cousinstanley at gmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 07:16:44 -0700
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>
 <3d9e313c-958f-4532-b968-0aee7f849246@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l81v0e$62d$1@dont-email.me>


> ....
> This is what I get:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> File "./feet2meters.py", line 2, in <module>
> from tkinter import *
> File "/home/jean/tkinter.py", line 2, in <module>
> import Tkinter as tk
> ImportError: No module named Tkinter
> ....

  From your original post I only changed the she-bang line
  from python to python3 ....

    #!/usr/bin/env python3

  and the import lines remained 
  as you originally posted 
  which are appropriate for python3 .... 

    from tkinter import *
    from tkinter import ttk

  The traceback above shows an import statement
  that is different from the one you originally posted 
  which would be ok in python2 but not python3 .... 

    import Tkinter as tk


-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 10:53:47 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 07:53:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3730.1386512136.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <l7vp35$dnc$1@dont-email.me>
 <3d9e313c-958f-4532-b968-0aee7f849246@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3730.1386512136.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f471f1fe-156d-4e56-9684-eabb07fb3dee@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 8 december 2013 15:16:25 UTC+1 schreef Dave Angel:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:45:06 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois 
> 
> <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > This is what I get:
> 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> >   File "./feet2meters.py", line 2, in <module>
> 
> >     from tkinter import *
> 
> >   File "/home/jean/tkinter.py", line 2, in <module>
> 
> >     import Tkinter as tk
> 
> > ImportError: No module named Tkinter
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of your other fixes,  you should rename the bogus file:
> 
> 
> 
> /home/jean/tkinter.py
> 
> 
> 
> You very seldom want to have files that can shadow system modules.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> DaveA

Thank you Dave, this made it work under python3 too. I also had to remove tkinter.pyc 

kind regards,
jean


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 02:40:19 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:40:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3706.1386439915.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3706.1386439915.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c4184cdc-8caf-4c6e-996a-2840a814b502@googlegroups.com>

Op zaterdag 7 december 2013 19:12:50 UTC+1 schreef Dave Angel:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2013 08:52:08 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois 
> 
> <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code 
> 
> below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little 
> 
> popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but 
> 
> always shows the following error-message.
> 
> > However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is 
> 
> not shown.
> 
> > This is the quit error message:
> 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> >   File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
> 
> >     from tkinter import ttk
> 
> > ImportError: cannot import name ttk
> 
> 
> 
> > This is the code:
> 
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> > from tkinter import *
> 
> > from tkinter import ttk
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for supplying the complete traceback.  But you should also 
> 
> tell the python version and what OS.  I'll guess python 3.3 on Linux. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finally,  what version tk are you running?  These widgets were 
> 
> introduced in tk 8.5
> 
> 
> 
> Since it failed on the second import, none of the rest of the code 
> 
> matters. However, since you're not running it from a terminal window, 
> 
> it's conceivable that your ide is affecting the result.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> DaveA

I have two pythons installed on my system:
Python 2.7.3 and Python 3.2.3
When using python2 I get the errors mentioned above
When using python3 (I removed the shebang and started as python3 feettometers.py) then I get these errors:

coolens at antec2:~$ python3 feet2meters.py 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "feet2meters.py", line 1, in <module>
    from tkinter import *
  File "/home/coolens/tkinter.py", line 2, in <module>
    import Tkinter as tk
ImportError: No module named Tkinter

I tried to fix this by installing
apt-get install python3-tk (python3-tk_3.2.3-1_amd64.deb)

but the error remains

What should I do now?

thanks in advance
jean


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 02:49:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 18:49:22 +1100
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <c4184cdc-8caf-4c6e-996a-2840a814b502@googlegroups.com>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3706.1386439915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c4184cdc-8caf-4c6e-996a-2840a814b502@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpAMyKdsTEwmO=NjLMbSNvGHnwScDh40zfN13hU3k7VGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> coolens at antec2:~$ python3 feet2meters.py
> ImportError: No module named Tkinter

In Python 3, the module's named tkinter instead of Tkinter. You should
be able to do the exact same import but with the lower-case name, or
if you need to support both:

try:
    import tkinter as tk
except ImportError:
    import Tkinter as tk

ChrisA


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 04:15:12 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 01:15:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3719.1386488971.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3706.1386439915.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c4184cdc-8caf-4c6e-996a-2840a814b502@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3719.1386488971.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <306a33b1-d9f9-433b-91fa-b89b99e774eb@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 8 december 2013 08:49:22 UTC+1 schreef Chris Angelico:
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > coolens at antec2:~$ python3 feet2meters.py
> 
> > ImportError: No module named Tkinter
> 
> 
> 
> In Python 3, the module's named tkinter instead of Tkinter. You should
> 
> be able to do the exact same import but with the lower-case name, or
> 
> if you need to support both:
> 
> 
> 
> try:
> 
>     import tkinter as tk
> 
> except ImportError:
> 
>     import Tkinter as tk
> 
This seems a very nice approach, but can you tell me how I should change the import-section as a whole; I tried it like here below (but that's certainly not the right way):


try:
    import tkinter as tk
except ImportError:
    import Tkinter as tk
from tk import *
import ttk

thanks in advance
jean


From auriocus at gmx.de  Sun Dec  8 03:10:28 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 09:10:28 +0100
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l819hj$qhn$2@dont-email.me>

Am 07.12.13 17:52, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but always shows the following error-message.
> However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is not shown.
>
> This is the quit error message:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
>      from tkinter import ttk
> ImportError: cannot import name ttk
>
> This is the code:
> #!/usr/bin/env python

> from tkinter import *
> from tkinter import ttk

With my python2, it works to replace the import by

	from Tkinter import *
	import ttk

Christian



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 03:57:55 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 00:57:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] struggling wth tkinter
In-Reply-To: <l819hj$qhn$2@dont-email.me>
References: <40121057-3c98-4f50-84b3-fd320fe2cedc@googlegroups.com>
 <l819hj$qhn$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <74c0caeb-0543-4819-a291-80e679344d6e@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 8 december 2013 09:10:28 UTC+1 schreef Christian Gollwitzer:
> Am 07.12.13 17:52, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> 
> > I'm trying to go through a tutorial on tkinter which has the code below as an example. The only thing I see when running it is a little popup with "Click mouse here to quit" which works as expected but always shows the following error-message.
> 
> > However the "main" window which should let you enter the numbers is not shown.
> 
> >
> 
> > This is the quit error message:
> 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> >    File "./feet2meters.py", line 3, in <module>
> 
> >      from tkinter import ttk
> 
> > ImportError: cannot import name ttk
> 
> >
> 
> > This is the code:
> 
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> 
> 
> > from tkinter import *
> 
> > from tkinter import ttk
> 
> 
> 
> With my python2, it works to replace the import by
> 
> 
> 
> 	from Tkinter import *
> 
> 	import ttk
> 
> 
> 
> Christian

Thank you very much Christian, this solves the problem

kind regards,
jean


From mahanmarwat at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 19:58:24 2013
From: mahanmarwat at gmail.com (Mahan Marwat)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 16:58:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is It Bug?
Message-ID: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>

Why this is not working.

>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')

To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.

The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.


From iurisilvio at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 20:04:13 2013
From: iurisilvio at gmail.com (Iuri)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 23:04:13 -0200
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>
References: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CABxJ+fUSHD1N0W38BJ1G8Bjqe_L-1aK5NUAXpRrvtg32VaRkTQ@mail.gmail.com>

This way, it will replace '\' with '\', so nothing change.

>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\\\', '\\')
'Hello, \\World'
>>> print 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\\\', '\\')
Hello, \World


On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 10:58 PM, Mahan Marwat <mahanmarwat at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why this is not working.
>
> >>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')
>
> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will
> replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's
> give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.
>
> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 00:48:36 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 21:48:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>
References: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <598b3c82-37b8-47bf-a5dc-fcfab266d34f@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:28:24 AM UTC+5:30, Mahan Marwat wrote:
> Why this is not working.

> >>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')

> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method
> will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello,
> \World'. But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.

> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.

I am mystified by this question.
Yes '\\' may be one slash or two or something else more exotic.
But whatever it is (and its not a syntax error like with '\') it is something.
So how can ....replace(something,something)....  be anything other
than a no-op?



From mellowcellofellow at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 01:39:58 2013
From: mellowcellofellow at gmail.com (Joshua Gardner)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 23:39:58 -0700
Subject: Is It Bug?
References: <5865401e-aef8-4dd2-927c-52d2b7ca3ed8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8147t$k81$2@speranza.aioe.org>

If I'm having to deal with incessant backslashes in a string I'll often
use the r'\' (raw string literal) syntax. Simplifies things quite a bit.


From mahanmarwat at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 19:59:17 2013
From: mahanmarwat at gmail.com (Mahan Marwat)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 16:59:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is It Bug?
Message-ID: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>

Why this is not working.

>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')

To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.

The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec  7 20:05:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:05:41 +1100
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmosZ+J=sMjoP8rteA_Kg65y4Oc1zRxhypptjEUCJ1DJJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Mahan Marwat <mahanmarwat at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why this is not working.
>
>>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')
>
> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.
>
> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.

You're replacing with the same as the source string. That's not going
to change anything.

The first thing to get your head around is Python string literals.
You'll find them well described in the online tutorial, or poke around
in the interactive interpreter. Once you master that, you should be
able to understand what you're trying to do here.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec  7 20:06:45 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 01:06:45 +0000
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l80gn2$hnn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 08/12/2013 00:59, Mahan Marwat wrote:
> Why this is not working.
>
>>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')

Whoops a daisy!!! --------------^^^^--^^^^ ???

>
> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.
>
> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Dec  7 20:12:44 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 01:12:44 +0000
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A3C78C.4020504@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 08/12/2013 00:59, Mahan Marwat wrote:
> Why this is not working.
>
>>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')
>
> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method
> will replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'.
> But it's give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.
>
> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.
>
The original string contains 2 actual backslashes:

>>> print('Hello, \\\\World')
Hello, \\World

Both the search and replacement strings contain 1 backslash:

>>> print('\\')
\

You're asking it to replace every backslash with a backslash!

If you want to replace 2 consecutive backslashed with a single
backslash:

 >>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\\\', '\\')
'Hello, \\World'

Maybe it's clearer if you print it:

 >>> print('Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\\\', '\\'))
Hello, \World


From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec  7 20:22:41 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 20:22:41 -0500
Subject: Is It Bug?
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3713.1386464744.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-756493.20224107122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3713.1386464744.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> The first thing to get your head around is Python string literals.
> You'll find them well described in the online tutorial, or poke around
> in the interactive interpreter. 

A couple of ideas to explore along those lines:

1) Read up on raw strings, i.e.

r'Hello, \World'

instead of 

'Hello, \\Word'

There's nothing you can do with raw strings that you can't do with 
regular strings, but they're easier to read when you start to use 
backslashes.

2) When in doubt about what I'm looking at in a string, I turn it into a 
list.  So, if I do:

>>> s = 'Hello, \\World'
>>> print s
Hello, \World

What is that character after the space?  Is it a backslash, or is it 
something that Python is printing as \W?  Not sure?  Just do:

>>> print list(s)
['H', 'e', 'l', 'l', 'o', ',', ' ', '\\', 'W', 'o', 'r', 'l', 'd']

and it's immediately obvious which it is.


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 05:01:47 2013
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Q2hyaXMg4oCcS3dwb2xza2HigJ0gV2Fycmljaw==?=)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 11:01:47 +0100
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <roy-756493.20224107122013@news.panix.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3713.1386464744.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-756493.20224107122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7JEEbj6Pt-ZGPT9dniyzokOKGvFd6ttTSDF9m5JO=GPfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> There's nothing you can do with raw strings that you can't do with
> regular strings, but they're easier to read when you start to use
> backslashes.

Unfortunately, there is one.  A raw string cannot end with a backslash.

>>> r'a\a'
'a\\a'
>>> r'a\'
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    r'a\'
        ^
SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal
>>> r'\'
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    r'\'
       ^
SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal

-- 
Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 05:04:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:04:05 +1100
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <CAMw+j7JEEbj6Pt-ZGPT9dniyzokOKGvFd6ttTSDF9m5JO=GPfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3713.1386464744.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-756493.20224107122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAMw+j7JEEbj6Pt-ZGPT9dniyzokOKGvFd6ttTSDF9m5JO=GPfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpmLX-Ow9bdS_x+A9dS0HYss16cRsvT1Xou6051B19exQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick
<kwpolska at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 2:22 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> There's nothing you can do with raw strings that you can't do with
>> regular strings, but they're easier to read when you start to use
>> backslashes.
>
> Unfortunately, there is one.  A raw string cannot end with a backslash.

That's the other way around. There's something you can't do with a raw
string that you can do with a regular. But there's nothing you can do
with a raw that you can't do with a regular, as can be easily proven
by looking at the repr handling - nothing will ever have a repr that's
a raw string.

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 05:26:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:26:39 +1100
Subject: Is It Bug?
In-Reply-To: <CAMw+j7JEEbj6Pt-ZGPT9dniyzokOKGvFd6ttTSDF9m5JO=GPfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3713.1386464744.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-756493.20224107122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAMw+j7JEEbj6Pt-ZGPT9dniyzokOKGvFd6ttTSDF9m5JO=GPfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp9auHDnONr6hxVdJ1Y4vTtEyejC74PZ+xSf0-sBVhRTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 9:01 PM, Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick
<kwpolska at gmail.com> wrote:
> A raw string cannot end with a backslash.
>
>>>> r'a\a'
> 'a\\a'
>>>> r'a\'
>   File "<stdin>", line 1
>     r'a\'
>         ^
> SyntaxError: EOL while scanning string literal

Incidentally, the solution to this would be to not use the backslash
to escape the quote. That's what introduces the ambiguity. Instead, a
raw literal could do as REXX does and double the quote to escape it.
(Any whitespace and it's still concatenation as normal. I'm not
advocating REXX's handling there.)

>>> r"asdf""qwer"
'asdfqwer'

If we had a new "pure string" that worked thus:
>>> p"asdf""qwer"
'asdf"qwer'

>>> p"\b""\d+""\b"
'\\b"\\d+"\\b'

which would be a regex matching quoted strings of digits. The only
potential ambiguity would be in that closing the quote and opening
another would normally revert to a regular string literal, where by
this model it's still a pure string. Editor lexers would have to
understand that.

ChrisA


From timr at probo.com  Sun Dec  8 01:53:37 2013
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 22:53:37 -0800
Subject: Is It Bug?
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6k58a9do25ftf4b9h33ff96gs046eruej8@4ax.com>

Mahan Marwat <mahanmarwat at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Why this is not working.
>
>>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')
>
>To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. 

It's really important that you think about the difference between the way
string literals are written in Python code, and the way the strings
actually look in memory.

The Python literal 'Hello, \\\\World' contains exactly 2 backslashes.  We
have to spell it with 4 backslashes to get that result, but in memory there
are only two.

Similarly, the Python literal '\\' contains exactly one character.

So, if your goal is to change 2 backslashes to 1, you would need
    'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\\\','\\')

However, REMEMBER that if you just have the command-line interpreter echo
the result of that, it's going to show you the string representation, in
which each backslash is shown as TWO characters.  Observe:

    Python 2.7.1 (r271:86832, Nov 27 2010, 18:30:46) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
(Intel)] on win32
    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
    >>> s = 'Hello, \\\\World'
    >>> s
    'Hello, \\\\World'
    >>> print s
    Hello, \\World
    >>> s = s.replace('\\\\','\\')
    >>> s
    'Hello, \\World'
    >>> print s
    Hello, \World
    >>>
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Dec  8 05:43:37 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 11:43:37 +0100
Subject: Is It Bug?
References: <27c0b454-62e9-410f-b05c-7c5fe306f8aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l81igb$por$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mahan Marwat wrote:

> Why this is not working.
> 
>>>> 'Hello, \\\\World'.replace('\\', '\\')
> 
> To me, Python will interpret '\\\\' to '\\'. And the replace method will
> replace '\\' with '\'. So, the result will be 'Hello, \World'. But it's
> give me 'Hello, \\\\World'.
> 
> The result I want form the code is 'Hello, \World'.

Let's forget about backslashes for the moment and use 'a' instead. We can 
replace an 'a' with an 'a'

>>> "Hello, aaWorld".replace("a", "a")
'Hello, aaWorld'

That changes nothing. Or we can replace two 'a's with one 'a'

>>> "Hello, aaWorld".replace("aa", "a")
'Hello, aWorld'

This does the obvious thing. Finally we can replace an 'a' with the empty 
string '':

>>> "Hello, aaWorld".replace("a", "")
'Hello, World'

This effectively removes all 'a's. 

Now let's replace the "a" with a backslash. Because the backslash has a 
special meaning it has to be "escaped", i. e. preceded by another backslash. 
The examples then become

>>> "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\", "\\")
'Hello, \\\\World'
>>> "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\\\", "\\")
'Hello, \\World'
>>> "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\", "")
'Hello, World'

While doubling of backslashes is required by Python the doubling of 
backslahses in the output occurs because the interactive interpreter applies 
repr() to the string before it is shown. You can avoid that with an explicit 
print statement in Python 2 or a print() function call in Python 3:

>>> print "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\", "\\")
Hello, \\World
>>> print "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\\\", "\\")
Hello, \World
>>> print "Hello, \\\\World".replace("\\", "")
Hello, World                                                                                                                               



From musicdenotation at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 05:35:54 2013
From: musicdenotation at gmail.com (Kalinni Gorzkis)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 17:35:54 +0700
Subject: Origin of eval()-ing in separate namespace object
Message-ID: <62C97841-33E3-4761-A670-D12E61DEB3E3@gmail.com>

By which languages(s) Python was inspired to support evaluating expressions and executing statements in a separate ?namespace? object?

This syntax:
eval(expression,globals) or exec(code,globals)
What is the origin of the functionality provided by the globals argument?

From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 08:45:01 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 05:45:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Origin of eval()-ing in separate namespace object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3727.1386506211.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3727.1386506211.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <05d1151c-ee29-4631-bdeb-24102f527815@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:05:54 PM UTC+5:30, Kalinni Gorzkis wrote:
> By which languages(s) Python was inspired to support evaluating expressions and executing statements in a separate ?namespace? object?

> This syntax:
> eval(expression,globals) or exec(code,globals)
> What is the origin of the functionality provided by the globals argument?

Been here since the days of scheme at least
http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/eval.html#%28part._namespaces%29

For the record lisp was conceptualized in the late 50s and implemented
by 1960.  By the 80s it was widely regarded as the premier AI language
but it was also clear to users that the scoping rules were terribly
wrong.  So a number of the then lisps coalesced and re-separated into
2 major dialects -- scheme and common lisp.

I expect it -- 2 argument eval -- goes all the way back to the earliest lisp 
but Ive not access to the history.


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Sun Dec  8 09:39:39 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 08 Dec 2013 16:39:39 +0200
Subject: Origin of eval()-ing in separate namespace object
References: <mailman.3727.1386506211.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05d1151c-ee29-4631-bdeb-24102f527815@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qotfvq3tnis.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

rusi writes:

> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:05:54 PM UTC+5:30, Kalinni Gorzkis wrote:
>
> > By which languages(s) Python was inspired to support evaluating
> > expressions and executing statements in a separate "namespace"
> > object?
> 
> > This syntax:
> > eval(expression,globals) or exec(code,globals)
> > What is the origin of the functionality provided by the globals
> > argument?
> 
> Been here since the days of scheme at least
> http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/eval.html#%28part._namespaces%29
> 
> For the record lisp was conceptualized in the late 50s and
> implemented by 1960.  By the 80s it was widely regarded as the
> premier AI language but it was also clear to users that the scoping
> rules were terribly wrong.  So a number of the then lisps coalesced
> and re-separated into 2 major dialects -- scheme and common lisp.
> 
> I expect it -- 2 argument eval -- goes all the way back to the
> earliest lisp but Ive not access to the history.

Yes. From p. 13 of LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual (the preface is dated
in 1962):

# _evalquote_ is defined by using two main functions, called _eval_
# and _apply_. _apply_ handles a function and its arguments, while
# _eval_ handles forms. Each of these functions also has another
# argument that is used as an association list for storing the values
# of bound variables and function names.

That association list is the namespace. _eval_ and _apply_ pass it
around and extend it as they call each other to evalute code.

So it seems that at least the idea of an explicit namespace argument
was there from the start. Mistakes related to the original dynamic
scoping continued to be made.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 11:39:24 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 08:39:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Origin of eval()-ing in separate namespace object
In-Reply-To: <qotfvq3tnis.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
References: <mailman.3727.1386506211.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05d1151c-ee29-4631-bdeb-24102f527815@googlegroups.com>
 <qotfvq3tnis.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <a0796ed2-8334-4031-9b8c-5a32f88347b8@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 8:09:39 PM UTC+5:30, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> rusi writes:

> > On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:05:54 PM UTC+5:30, Kalinni Gorzkis wrote:
> > > By which languages(s) Python was inspired to support evaluating
> > > expressions and executing statements in a separate "namespace"
> > > object?
> > > This syntax:
> > > eval(expression,globals) or exec(code,globals)
> > > What is the origin of the functionality provided by the globals
> > > argument?
> > Been here since the days of scheme at least
> > http://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/eval.html#%28part._namespaces%29
> > For the record lisp was conceptualized in the late 50s and
> > implemented by 1960.  By the 80s it was widely regarded as the
> > premier AI language but it was also clear to users that the scoping
> > rules were terribly wrong.  So a number of the then lisps coalesced
> > and re-separated into 2 major dialects -- scheme and common lisp.
> > I expect it -- 2 argument eval -- goes all the way back to the
> > earliest lisp but Ive not access to the history.

> Yes. From p. 13 of LISP 1.5 Programmer's Manual (the preface is dated
> in 1962):

> # _evalquote_ is defined by using two main functions, called _eval_
> # and _apply_. _apply_ handles a function and its arguments, while
> # _eval_ handles forms. Each of these functions also has another
> # argument that is used as an association list for storing the values
> # of bound variables and function names.

Heh ? I am nostalgia-fied!

Wrote a Lisp interpreter as a student degree project in 1986.
Tried to use the Lisp 1.5 manual then but it was too archaic for me to
understand.  So mostly chewed on the UCI Lisp manual.  Took me some
years to understand that dynamic scoping was not my mistake but Lisp's!!


From rafaellasav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 12:59:52 2013
From: rafaellasav at gmail.com (rafaellasav at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 09:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
Message-ID: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>

i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
please help


From ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid  Sun Dec  8 13:07:47 2013
From: ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid (YBM)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:07:47 +0100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 08.12.2013 18:59, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ?crit :
> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name.
> I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns
> the names of all the people who are that age.
> please help

ageDict = { 'john':42, 'jane':36, 'paul':42 }
peopleWithAge = lambda age: [ name for name in ageDict if
			      ageDict[name]==age]




From rafaellasav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 13:14:47 2013
From: rafaellasav at gmail.com (rafaellasav at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 10:14:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
Message-ID: <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:07:47 PM UTC, YBM wrote:
> Le 08.12.2013 18:59, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ???crit :
> 
> > i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name.
> 
> > I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns
> 
> > the names of all the people who are that age.
> 
> > please help
> 
> 
> 
> ageDict = { 'john':42, 'jane':36, 'paul':42 }
> 
> peopleWithAge = lambda age: [ name for name in ageDict if
> 
> 			      ageDict[name]==age]


sorry but i'm new to python ;p
1. it has to be in a form of a function called people and
2. how this code takes in an age and returns the names?


From ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid  Sun Dec  8 13:18:00 2013
From: ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid (YBM)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:18:00 +0100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a4b7d8$0$2146$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

Le 08.12.2013 19:14, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ?crit :
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:07:47 PM UTC, YBM wrote:
>> Le 08.12.2013 18:59, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ???crit :
>>
>>> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name.
>>
>>> I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns
>>
>>> the names of all the people who are that age.
>>
>>> please help
>>
>>
>>
>> ageDict = { 'john':42, 'jane':36, 'paul':42 }
>>
>> peopleWithAge = lambda age: [ name for name in ageDict if
>>
>> 			      ageDict[name]==age]
>
>
> sorry but i'm new to python ;p
> 1. it has to be in a form of a function called people and
> 2. how this code takes in an age and returns the names?

  >>> ageDict = { 'john':42, 'jane':36, 'paul':42 }
  >>> people = lambda age: [ name for name in ageDict if
  ...                           ageDict[name]==age]
  >>> people(42)
  ['paul', 'john']





From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 13:25:32 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:25:32 +0000
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l82dip$613$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 08/12/2013 18:14, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:07:47 PM UTC, YBM wrote:
>> Le 08.12.2013 18:59, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ???crit :
>>
>>> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name.
>>
>>> I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns
>>
>>> the names of all the people who are that age.
>>
>>> please help
>>
>>
>>
>> ageDict = { 'john':42, 'jane':36, 'paul':42 }
>>
>> peopleWithAge = lambda age: [ name for name in ageDict if
>>
>> 			      ageDict[name]==age]
>
>
> sorry but i'm new to python ;p
> 1. it has to be in a form of a function called people and
> 2. how this code takes in an age and returns the names?
>

I'm awfully sorry but I'm not doing your homework for you :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From cjwelborn at live.com  Mon Dec  9 18:34:57 2013
From: cjwelborn at live.com (Christopher Welborn)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 17:34:57 -0600
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <l82dip$613$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <52a4b574$0$2116$426a74cc@news.free.fr>
 <780a4832-411d-499e-96a1-3321d123b82b@googlegroups.com>
 <l82dip$613$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l85k2m$189$1@ger.gmane.org>

> On 08/12/2013 18:14, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
>> sorry but i'm new to python ;p
>> 1. it has to be in a form of a function called people and
>> 2. how this code takes in an age and returns the names?
>>


"it has to be in the form of a function called people", that made me 
laugh. Too bad he got an answer, even worse he doesn't know what to do 
with it.
-- 

- Christopher Welborn <cjwelborn at live.com>
   http://welbornprod.com



From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec  8 13:23:38 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 13:23:38 -0500
Subject: python programming help
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-B808B3.13233808122013@news.panix.com>

In article <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c at googlegroups.com>,
 rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:

> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a 
> function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are 
> that age.
> please help

Homework problem?

In any case, this is a classic example of a real-life problem, and thus 
worth exploring.  The general case is you have a many-to-one mapping and 
you want to find the inverse one-to-many map.

I'm assuming when you say, "a dictionary with names and ages for each 
name", you mean the names are the keys and the ages are the values.  
That would also imply that the names are unique; that's a poor 
assumption for real data sets, but let's assume that's the case here.

So, we're going to take your original dictionary and create a new one 
where the keys are the ages, and the values are lists of names.  That's 
pretty straight forward.  Here's the most brute-force way (which is a 
good place to start):

d2 = {}
for name, age in d1.items():
   if age not in d2:
      d2[age] = []
   d2[age].append(name)

Work through that code in your head to convince yourself that you 
understand what's going on.

This is such a common pattern, Python has a neat tool to make this 
easier.  It's called a defaultdict.  Bascially, this is a dictionary 
which has built into it the "if key doesn't exist, initialize something" 
logic.  It works like this:

from collections import defaultdict

d2 = defaultdict(list)
for name, age in d1.items():
   d2[age].append(name)

The "defaultdict(list)" creates one of these and tells it that the 
"initialize something" part should be "create an empty list".  It's 
hugely convenient and used all the time.


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Sun Dec  8 13:20:37 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 10:20:37 -0800
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A4B875.2070605@islandtraining.com>

On 12/08/2013 09:59 AM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> please help

This looks like homework for a beginning programming class. Correct?

We like helping people use Python, and we like helping people learn 
Python, but neither of those purposes are served by us *doing* your 
homework for you.

Please, you try to solve the problem, and when you get stuck, show us 
your code, and ask a specific question.

Hint:  You will almost certainly need a loop (through the dictionary 
entries), an 'if' conditional to test for the age matching the given 
age, and a print,

Gary Herron


From bgailer at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 13:27:34 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 13:27:34 -0500
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A4BA16.20900@gmail.com>

On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> please help
Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.

If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well 
that's not what we do on this list.

Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need 
help.

Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write 
and run Python programs.


From rafaellasav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 13:32:31 2013
From: rafaellasav at gmail.com (rafaellasav at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 10:32:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
> On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> 
> > please help
> 
> Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
> 
> 
> 
> If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well 
> 
> that's not what we do on this list.
> 
> 
> 
> Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need 
> 
> help.
> 
> 
> 
> Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write 
> 
> and run Python programs.

name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
dic={}
def combine_lists(name,age):
    for i in range(len(name)):
        dic[name[i]]= age[i]
combine_lists(name,age)
print dic

def people(age):
    people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]

people(20)




this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result 


From rafaellasav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 13:42:16 2013
From: rafaellasav at gmail.com (rafaellasav at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 10:42:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <97634c6d-9ac5-4e2d-8616-426a59c6b439@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:32:31 PM UTC, rafae... at gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
> 
> > On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > please help
> 
> > 
> 
> > Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well 
> 
> > 
> 
> > that's not what we do on this list.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need 
> 
> > 
> 
> > help.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write 
> 
> > 
> 
> > and run Python programs.
> 
> 
> 
> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
> 
> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
> 
> dic={}
> 
> def combine_lists(name,age):
> 
>     for i in range(len(name)):
> 
>         dic[name[i]]= age[i]
> 
> combine_lists(name,age)
> 
> print dic
> 
> 
> 
> def people(age):
> 
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
> 
> 
> 
> people(20)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result

and I'm sorry but this is the first time i ask for help in a forum and i just didn't know how it works. I'm not looking for someone to do my homework i just need someone to help me with my code :)


From benjamin.kaplan at case.edu  Sun Dec  8 13:52:12 2013
From: benjamin.kaplan at case.edu (Benjamin Kaplan)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 10:52:12 -0800
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMuTYXhoaKjkqEvpyoLardZRa4tfuRX92UfK_2BZKjni6+_CDA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:32 AM, <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
> > On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> >
> > > please help
> >
> > Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well
> >
> > that's not what we do on this list.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need
> >
> > help.
> >
> >
> >
> > Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write
> >
> > and run Python programs.
>
> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
> dic={}
> def combine_lists(name,age):
>     for i in range(len(name)):
>         dic[name[i]]= age[i]
> combine_lists(name,age)
> print dic
>
> def people(age):
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>
> people(20)
>
>
>
>
> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result
>
>

To return a value from a function, you need to use the "return"
statement with the value you want to pass back out. You're not doing
that here. Also, you're using a lot of shorthand stuff that you should
probably avoid until you're more comfortable with the language

* Lambda is shorthand for a function. foo = lambda bar : bar + 2 is
the same thing as the function
def foo(bar) :
    return bar + 2

* a list comprehension is short-hand for a loop. spam = [foo for foo
in bar if baz(foo)]  is the same thing as
spam = []
for foo in bar :
    if baz(foo) :
        spam.append(foo)

You don't need a lambda here- just call the code that you need to call directly.


From rafaellasav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 14:06:55 2013
From: rafaellasav at gmail.com (rafaellasav at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 11:06:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:52:12 PM UTC, Benjamin Kaplan wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:32 AM, <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
> 
> > > On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > >
> 
> > > > i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > > please help
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > > If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well
> 
> > >
> 
> > > that's not what we do on this list.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need
> 
> > >
> 
> > > help.
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > >
> 
> > > Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write
> 
> > >
> 
> > > and run Python programs.
> 
> >
> 
> > name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
> 
> > age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
> 
> > dic={}
> 
> > def combine_lists(name,age):
> 
> >     for i in range(len(name)):
> 
> >         dic[name[i]]= age[i]
> 
> > combine_lists(name,age)
> 
> > print dic
> 
> >
> 
> > def people(age):
> 
> >     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
> 
> >
> 
> > people(20)
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> To return a value from a function, you need to use the "return"
> 
> statement with the value you want to pass back out. You're not doing
> 
> that here. Also, you're using a lot of shorthand stuff that you should
> 
> probably avoid until you're more comfortable with the language
> 
> 
> 
> * Lambda is shorthand for a function. foo = lambda bar : bar + 2 is
> 
> the same thing as the function
> 
> def foo(bar) :
> 
>     return bar + 2
> 
> 
> 
> * a list comprehension is short-hand for a loop. spam = [foo for foo
> 
> in bar if baz(foo)]  is the same thing as
> 
> spam = []
> 
> for foo in bar :
> 
>     if baz(foo) :
> 
>         spam.append(foo)
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need a lambda here- just call the code that you need to call directly.

i get it, thanks a lot i wrote a different one and it works

def people(age):
    people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
    print(people)

people(20)

i have one last question

it asks me to test my program function by running these lines:
print ?Dan? in people(18) and ?Cathy? in people(18)
print ?Ed? in people(19) and ?Helen? in people(19) and\
?Irene? in people(19) and ?Jack? in people(19) and ?Larry?in
people(19)
print ?Alice? in people(20) and ?Frank? in people(20) and ?Gary? in
people(20)
print people(21) == [?Bob?]
print people(22) == [?Kelly?]
print people(23) == []

but when i wrote these lines it returns me an error 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/Users/rafaellasavva/Desktop/people.py", line 19, in <module>
    print 'Dan' in people(18) and 'Cathy' in people(18)
TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not utterable

do you know what it might be wrong?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 14:17:03 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 06:17:03 +1100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqzpm5iDFpGC4q-2_MkvbjEkU6Brh6c_Apqu_4ggLqgZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:
> but when i wrote these lines it returns me an error
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/Users/rafaellasavva/Desktop/people.py", line 19, in <module>
>     print 'Dan' in people(18) and 'Cathy' in people(18)
> TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not utterable
>
> do you know what it might be wrong?

Hehe. The first thing that's wrong is that you're retyping the error
instead of copying and pasting it. The problem is actually that it's
not *iterable* here. And the reason for that is that you're printing
the result instead of returning it, as has been mentioned by a few
people.

Also, your posts are acquiring the slimy stain of Google Groups, which
makes them rather distasteful. All your replies are getting
double-spaced, among other problems. Please consider switching to an
alternative newsgroup reader, or subscribing to the mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

The content is the same, but it comes by email instead of netnews.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 14:21:22 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 19:21:22 +0000
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l82grf$8ac$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 08/12/2013 19:06, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
> i get it, thanks a lot i wrote a different one and it works
>
> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>      print(people)
>
> people(20)
>
> i have one last question
>
> it asks me to test my program function by running these lines:
> print ?Dan? in people(18) and ?Cathy? in people(18)
> print ?Ed? in people(19) and ?Helen? in people(19) and\
> ?Irene? in people(19) and ?Jack? in people(19) and ?Larry?in
> people(19)
> print ?Alice? in people(20) and ?Frank? in people(20) and ?Gary? in
> people(20)
> print people(21) == [?Bob?]
> print people(22) == [?Kelly?]
> print people(23) == []
>
> but when i wrote these lines it returns me an error
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "/Users/rafaellasavva/Desktop/people.py", line 19, in <module>
>      print 'Dan' in people(18) and 'Cathy' in people(18)
> TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not utterable
>
> do you know what it might be wrong?
>

You've typed up the error message instead of using cut and paste, which 
is why it says "utterable" instead of "iterable"? :)  Seriously, it's 
already been pointed out that your people function needs a return 
statement.  Without it, the default returned is always None.

Would you also please read and action this
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython as it prevents us seeing 
huge numbers of unwanted newlines which some find extremely irritating.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Dec  8 16:17:56 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 16:17:56 -0500
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l82nlq$doi$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/8/2013 2:06 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:

Even when you do get what lambda means and how use it,
   name = lambda args: expression
which is a carryover from other languages, is inferior to
   def name(args): return expression
because the function object resulting from lambda does not have a proper 
name attribute.

> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]

An alternative is
[name for name, value in dic.itervalues() if value == age]

In Python 3, remove 'iter'. It this is not homework and you are not 
otherwise forced to start with Python 3, I (and some others here) 
recommend starting with Python 3.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Sun Dec  8 19:08:02 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 16:08:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>

On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
> Also, your posts are acquiring the slimy stain of Google Groups, which
> makes them rather distasteful. All your replies are getting
> double-spaced, among other problems. Please consider switching to an
> alternative newsgroup reader, or subscribing to the mailing list:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

To the OP:

First, my apologies if my reply ends up trashing your 
discussion here, but you should know what is behind Mr.
Angelico's response.

For some time now the Google Group Wars are being fought
in this group.

There is a (probably very small) clique of Google haters 
who try present themselves as "the community" and who try
to intimidate anyone posting from Google Groups into using
some other means of posting, completely disregarding the
fact that for many new people or occasional posters, Google 
Groups is an order of magnitude easier to use.  These people
are extremely noisy and obnoxious but *do not* represent 
"the community" except in their own minds.  I suspect many 
of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as 
a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology 
they invested time in learning and don't want see change.

I and many other people post here from Google Groups and 
you should feel free to too if it is more convenient for 
you.  (Of course you can also use the maillist or usenet 
if you find them a good solution for *you* but please don't 
feel compelled to by some loud obnoxious bullies.)

As another poster pointed out, if you are able to follow 
some of the advice at,

  https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

it will help quiet down the anti-Google crowd a little but
even if you don't, those without a Google chip on their shoulder 
will simply skip your posts if they find the Google formatting
too annoying.  Most of us though will deal with it as adults 
and try our best to answer your questions.

I just thought you should have both sides of the story so
to won't take the anti-Google crowd here as gospel.

Addressing you last question, I presume you understood the
other responses about replacing the "print (people)" 
statement in your people() function with "return people".

The only additional thing I wanted to add is that, 

  people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age] 

is (I would guess) a rather advanced way of doing what 
you are doing, given where you seem to be in learning
about python (but maybe not, in which case ignore the 
following).

The [....] thing is called as "list comprehension and 
in described here
  http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/datastructures.html#list-comprehensions

However, it is just a more concise way of writing:

  people = []
  for n, a in dic.items():
    if a == age: people.append (n)
  return people

To understand the above (if you don't already) you'll want 
to read about the the items() method of dicts:
  http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/datastructures.html#looping-techniques
  http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#mapping-types-dict
the append() method of lists, 
  http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#for-statements
  http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#mutable-sequence-types
and of course "for" loops;
  http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/controlflow.html#for-statements

Hope this helps.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec  8 19:27:48 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 00:27:48 +0000
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l832q1$pje$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>> Also, your posts are acquiring the slimy stain of Google Groups, which
>> makes them rather distasteful. All your replies are getting
>> double-spaced, among other problems. Please consider switching to an
>> alternative newsgroup reader, or subscribing to the mailing list:
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> To the OP:
>
> First, my apologies if my reply ends up trashing your
> discussion here, but you should know what is behind Mr.
> Angelico's response.
>
> For some time now the Google Group Wars are being fought
> in this group.
>
> There is a (probably very small) clique of Google haters
> who try present themselves as "the community" and who try
> to intimidate anyone posting from Google Groups into using
> some other means of posting, completely disregarding the
> fact that for many new people or occasional posters, Google
> Groups is an order of magnitude easier to use.  These people
> are extremely noisy and obnoxious but *do not* represent
> "the community" except in their own minds.  I suspect many
> of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as
> a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology
> they invested time in learning and don't want see change.
>
> I and many other people post here from Google Groups and
> you should feel free to too if it is more convenient for
> you.  (Of course you can also use the maillist or usenet
> if you find them a good solution for *you* but please don't
> feel compelled to by some loud obnoxious bullies.)
>
> As another poster pointed out, if you are able to follow
> some of the advice at,
>
>    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>
> it will help quiet down the anti-Google crowd a little but
> even if you don't, those without a Google chip on their shoulder
> will simply skip your posts if they find the Google formatting
> too annoying.  Most of us though will deal with it as adults
> and try our best to answer your questions.
>
> I just thought you should have both sides of the story so
> to won't take the anti-Google crowd here as gospel.
>

To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish. 
Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however 
been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to 
avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups 
product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double 
spaced crap.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 22:05:55 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:05:55 +1100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo439DEGjcmEWY0YixVY=4dm-xt531Dk+w6Ry7e7BAnrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:08 AM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I suspect many
> of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as
> a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology
> they invested time in learning and don't want see change.

Neither. I don't at all hate Google (I quite like the company, and
what it's done for the world), and I use plenty of other Google
services - as you can see, I'm posting from gmail here. The only thing
I call out against is Google Groups, because it is buggy. I'll cry out
against anything else that's buggy, too. Of course, I'll first try to
do things quietly (bug reports to the maintainers), but ultimately,
the solution to buggy software is to NOT USE IT. If Google doesn't
care enough about Groups to bring it up to the standard, then their
penalty has to be reduced usage. In fact, Rurpy, you are actually
encouraging the faulty system, because you're providing ad impressions
and usage stats every time you read or write via GG. When less-buggy
systems see more use than more-buggy systems, big companies have an
incentive to fix bugs.

ChrisA


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  9 00:07:38 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:07:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>

On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>[...]
> To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish. 
> Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however 
> been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to 
> avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups 
> product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double 
> spaced crap.

Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.

However it does not change the fact that people here have responded 
in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than 
to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts 
which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
python question using a tool they already know how to use and have 
had no complaints about in other places.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 00:20:33 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:20:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <b8285377-6acb-4d5c-81c6-65d9abcc1ffb@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:37:38 AM UTC+5:30, ru... at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> > On 09/12/2013 00:08,  wrote:
> >> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  rafaell wrote:
> >[...]
> > To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish. 
> > Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however 
> > been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to 
> > avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups 
> > product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double 
> > spaced crap.

> Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
> to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
> your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.

Yes agreed.

> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded 
> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than 
> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts 
> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have 
> had no complaints about in other places.

About the last -- no complaints about (that) in other places -- Ive recently
seen that on the html/stylesheets/javascript lists (not sure which)
there are also annoyed complaints about GG.

About the rest -- when people get annoyed they say and do things they
would not otherwise do. The sensible not-yet-annoyed-enough-to-lose-the-head folks should try to cure the annoyance rather than get
annoyed with it -- dont you think?

In short if we are programmers we should be thinking bug-fixes when we
are bugged :-) And what is put up here 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
(only yesterday BTW) is a dynamically loadable GG-bugfix.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 00:15:04 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:15:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <b8285377-6acb-4d5c-81c6-65d9abcc1ffb@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <b8285377-6acb-4d5c-81c6-65d9abcc1ffb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f186f487-ef93-42e7-86c8-5bb9026fdde0@googlegroups.com>

On 12/08/2013 10:20 PM, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:37:38 AM UTC+5:30, ru... at yahoo.com wrote:
>[...]
>> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded 
>> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
>> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
>> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than 
>> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
>> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts 
>> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
>> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have 
>> had no complaints about in other places.
> 
> About the last -- no complaints about (that) in other places -- Ive recently
> seen that on the html/stylesheets/javascript lists (not sure which)
> there are also annoyed complaints about GG.

I am sure that there are other usenet groups that get Google 
Groups posts and find them irritating for the same reason 
that some here do.  But usenet is nearly all the way in death's 
door (at least text groups; binaries groups may be still be 
growing.)  The only usenet groups I know of with any vitality 
left at all are ones like the Python list that are backed by an 
active maillist.  (Curiously, it seems to me the dramatic decline
in usenet occurred around 2008-2010, about the same time as
the dramatic rise of social networking sites.)

As for pure mailing lists, I am not sure how many are gatewayed 
to GG -- I subscribe to several because they are not available
through GG -- so they don't get GG posts.  

There are however a large number of mailing lists that are 
hosted solely on GG by various projects.  It is participants 
in these lists that I was thinking of by "other places".  
Such people are likely very surprised by the hostility they 
meet when they simply change to the python list (or one of 
the other usenet-gatewayed groups) which looks very much 
like any another GG group from their perspective.

For all the GG hostility on the python list, many python 
project lists are hosted on GG (Sqlalchemy, Webpy, GvR's 
own Tulip project, etc) 

> About the rest -- when people get annoyed they say and do things they
> would not otherwise do. 

Humans have big cortexes so that they don't need to act out
based on their feelings of the moment -- like a dog humping
the boy next door or trying to bite off the arm of the 
postal delivery person.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 02:57:37 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 18:57:37 +1100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmohLQ5_seaZJ9TfA5MZL21=0Bnht7gufzusUUM6tOcdwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:07 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
> had no complaints about in other places.

Please note though that there is a difference between describing the
users as twits and describing the posts as slimy. Suppose you write a
letter (the sort that goes on a slab of dead tree) and, instead of
placing it in an envelope and putting a stamp on it, you hand it to
the Arac News Insertion Device[1] to do the enveloping for you. He
does a reasonable job of it, but he uses cobwebs instead of paper for
the envelope. Sure, it's still readable... but your readers now have
to rub off a whole lot of cobwebs before they can read what you said.
That makes your post distasteful, without it being at all your fault -
other than choosing to use Arac's service. That's how I see Google
Groups posts. Someone's gone looking for help about Python and has
found that. It's not their fault that they don't know about
alternatives; so I point out the alternatives.

ChrisA

[1] http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/princess_ida/webop/pi_04.html
On the whole we are
Not intelligent...


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 04:34:26 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 09:34:26 +0000
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 05:07, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>> [...]
>> To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish.
>> Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however
>> been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to
>> avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups
>> product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double
>> spaced crap.
>
> Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
> to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
> your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.
>
> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
> had no complaints about in other places.
>

Well you can ask iMath, amongst others, not to send double spaced google 
nonsense.  They've been asked repeatedly, politely, but apparently have 
no consideration at all for people who have no interest in seeing this 
ill formed dross spread throughout web land.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 10:44:08 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 07:44:08 -0800
Subject: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)
In-Reply-To: <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CD36E009-49C0-4F24-B954-C172409419C2@gmail.com>


On Dec 9, 2013, at 1:34 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 09/12/2013 05:07, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav at gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>>> [...]
>>> To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish.
>>> Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however
>>> been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to
>>> avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups
>>> product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double
>>> spaced crap.
>> 
>> Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
>> to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
>> your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.
>> 
>> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
>> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
>> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
>> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
>> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
>> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
>> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
>> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
>> had no complaints about in other places.
>> 
> 
> Well you can ask iMath, amongst others, not to send double spaced google nonsense.  They've been asked repeatedly, politely, but apparently have no consideration at all for people who have no interest in seeing this ill formed dross spread throughout web land.

As long as we?re in full scale rant drift, I?d like to remind others of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when, er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not "programming help" anymore.

The python mailing list is the only one I know of that is cross posted between 3 different technologies. Maybe it?s an outgrowth of the ?multi paradigm? philosophy of python or something.

It would be an interesting experiment, to shut down the cross forum replication engines for a month. Personally, I think they should each thrive, or die, on their own. If there?s enough mass on the groups to answer the occasional one off question, it?ll go on, indifferent of the existence of the mailing list. Comp.lang.python can truly become a troll haven. :) And the mailing list can be for the more thorough threads, or something.

If you?re worried about ?fragmentation?? these weekly rants seem to indicate it?s happened anyway, and the impedance mismatch between styles/technologies/formats is generating more heat from friction than it is contributing light to the cross-sharing. Besides, there?s nothing stopping periodic posts being sent to any of the sites saying ?by the way, did you know there?s also a mailing list??

The nice thing about doing it for a month (or so), is that it?s not a ?huge disturbance in the force.?  If it stinks, you turn them back on in a month (or so).

<tongue  in=?cheek?>If you?re still not sold, and find yourself solidly in the ?keep it all together? group, I propose, we embrace that idea, and set up a bi-directional engine between the IRC channel (which I?ve found very helpful often) and the mailing list. </>

From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 11:25:19 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:25:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> As long as we?re in full scale rant drift, I?d like to remind others
> of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> "programming help" anymore.

<snipped>

I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.

Lets just look at this thread:

New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

Different list members express concern/annoyance with this

[NO technological (3 different technologies) issues here yet]

This -- annoyance+answers -- continues for while until it morphs into GG-annoyance

The *context* of the earlier annoyance -- kid asking for homework help
without clearly saying so -- is lost in the GG annoyance.

Now GG is clearly annoying
As are kids who ask for homework help without saying so

??Whats the connection??


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 11:47:46 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:47:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)
In-Reply-To: <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <25558d63-af26-488c-9345-5693d4a9b186@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:55:19 PM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> > As long as we?re in full scale rant drift, I?d like to remind others
> > of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> > er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> > "programming help" anymore.


> I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.

> Lets just look at this thread:

> New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

> Different list members express concern/annoyance with this

> [NO technological (3 different technologies) issues here yet]

> This -- annoyance+answers -- continues for while until it morphs into GG-annoyance

> The *context* of the earlier annoyance -- kid asking for homework help
> without clearly saying so -- is lost in the GG annoyance.

> Now GG is clearly annoying
> As are kids who ask for homework help without saying so

> ??Whats the connection??

I should have mentioned/asked: Are you using Google Groups to post?

Your post suffers from one of GG's annoyances ? long lines.

If you are using it then I wonder about the *content* of your complaint
If you are not ? and the *form* of your post still has a classic-GG nuisance ?
then it weakens the anti-GG case.


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  9 13:48:20 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 13:48:20 -0500
Subject: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-48EC86.13482009122013@news.panix.com>

In article <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> > As long as we?re in full scale rant drift, I?d like to remind others
> > of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> > er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> > "programming help" anymore.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.
> 
> Lets just look at this thread:
> 
> New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

While it's good nettiquette, I suppose, to state that your question is 
about a homework problem, it's rarely necessary.  They pretty much 
announce themselves :-)


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  9 13:45:37 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 13:45:37 -0500
Subject: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <l842qv$g9j$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-84C2D5.13453609122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:

> The python mailing list is the only one I know of that is cross posted 
> between 3 different technologies. Maybe it?s an outgrowth of the ?multi 
> paradigm? philosophy of python or something.

Usenet is not a bicycle.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 00:07:51 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:07:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3762.1386575861.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3749.1386548889.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8ed4b168-7a45-4476-9078-080c43f4c1f1@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3762.1386575861.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f44200e6-4a44-4243-a621-66971e880b7b@googlegroups.com>

On 12/09/2013 12:57 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:07 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
>> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
>> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
>> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
>> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
>> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
>> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
>> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
>> had no complaints about in other places.
> 
> Please note though that there is a difference between describing the
> users as twits and describing the posts as slimy. Suppose you write a
> letter (the sort that goes on a slab of dead tree) and, instead of
> placing it in an envelope and putting a stamp on it, you hand it to
> the Arac News Insertion Device[1] to do the enveloping for you. He
> does a reasonable job of it, but he uses cobwebs instead of paper for
> the envelope. Sure, it's still readable... but your readers now have
> to rub off a whole lot of cobwebs before they can read what you said.
> That makes your post distasteful, without it being at all your fault -
> other than choosing to use Arac's service. That's how I see Google
> Groups posts. Someone's gone looking for help about Python and has
> found that. It's not their fault that they don't know about
> alternatives; so I point out the alternatives.

Nevertheless, that kind of strong judgmental language is
very likely to be taken as reflecting at least in part on
the poster, especially when the person is from a different 
culture or unsure of their English skills.

And if you truly just want the poster to be apprised of 
alternatives, I sure you'll grant me the right to point out 
the alternative you consistently leave out: the option to 
continue to use Google Groups.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec  9 00:10:30 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 21:10:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3757.1386558363.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3757.1386558363.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>

On 12/08/2013 08:05 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:08 AM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I suspect many
>> of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as
>> a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology
>> they invested time in learning and don't want see change.
> 
> Neither. I don't at all hate Google (I quite like the company, and
> what it's done for the world), and I use plenty of other Google
> services - as you can see, I'm posting from gmail here.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.  There have certainly
been others who have publicly railed against Google. 

> The only thing
> I call out against is Google Groups, because it is buggy. 

And yet you are publicly on record as referring to GG users
as "twits".

> I'll cry out
> against anything else that's buggy, too. Of course, I'll first try to
> do things quietly (bug reports to the maintainers), but ultimately,
> the solution to buggy software is to NOT USE IT. If Google doesn't
> care enough about Groups to bring it up to the standard, then their
> penalty has to be reduced usage. In fact, Rurpy, you are actually
> encouraging the faulty system, because you're providing ad impressions
> and usage stats every time you read or write via GG. When less-buggy
> systems see more use than more-buggy systems, big companies have an
> incentive to fix bugs.

We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival 
software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying 
that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change 
their practice to join your boycott to fix.

You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.  
Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only) 
software is the norm.

So good luck on your crusade to force Google to do things the way
you think is right.  (Especially given the large and growing number
of Python project mailing lists *hosted* on Google Groups.)

Until you're successful, I will try to encourage GG users to post
more compatibly to avoid pissing off the old farts, do what I can 
to support Rusi's attempt to put together a tool to make it easier
to do so, and finally, live with double-spaced "crap" because that
is the lesser of two evils, the other being creating an excessively 
picky and hostile place for newcomers who just want to learn more
about Python.


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 00:22:29 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 00:22:29 -0500
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPM-O+ytTm1n46kLOObc9kvWTFTuutqfdpA4hCrmGJB7nz7iAA@mail.gmail.com>

"why can't we all just get along?"

Rodney King, RIP
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 03:15:49 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 19:15:49 +1100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3757.1386558363.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoFJobAnqNPD25WRGDDz_hGVHJpk_=VT1=mWsiue1QCRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival
> software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying
> that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change
> their practice to join your boycott to fix.

The ones that have interoperability problems are the ones that need to
be fixed. When a MUD client uses CP-1252 instead of either Latin-1 or
UTF-8, that's a fault in it. (Confession: My own RosMud has that exact
problem, because of what it uses under the covers for screen display.
But it's being retired in favour of Gypsum, which supports full
Unicode and defaults to UTF-8 transport.)

> You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
> going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
> No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
> and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.
> Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
> by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only)
> software is the norm.

And there were Microsoft people in the same era who, by Bill, weren't
going to pollute their software with any kind of standards
compatibility. Let's look at just one product, Internet Explorer:

IE6: Microsoft enjoys a near monopoly and uses this to encourage
people to use IE-only features  Myriad intranet sites get set up that
won't work properly on any other browser.

IE7: Other browsers now actually have some market-share, and people
are agitating for IE to match them in behaviour. Oh dear. Guess we'd
better add tabbed browsing, everyone else has it... the monopoly isn't
enough to maintain itself on its own.

IE8: Actually, it looks like standards compliance is becoming
important. But so is compatibility with IE6. What a pain, what a pain.

IE9 and IE10: The market shift to other browsers and thus the pressure
shift to standards compliance continues. Unfortunately, it's just not
possible to maintain IE6 compatibility, so lots of corporates have to
keep XP and IE6 for their daily use.

(I was in a Subway buying a sandwich a few weeks ago, and the system
was having trouble. Guy was on the phone to the US trying to get it
sorted out. Everything was in IE6. I pity them.)

Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only. And far far more that's
cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.

ChrisA


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 00:10:51 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:10:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3764.1386577308.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3757.1386558363.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3764.1386577308.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dcb04c1f-47f0-472e-add9-0222ae5984ef@googlegroups.com>

On 12/09/2013 01:15 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival
>> software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying
>> that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change
>> their practice to join your boycott to fix.
> 
> The ones that have interoperability problems are the ones that need to
> be fixed. [...snip stuff about mud clients...])

Huh?  You declare a universal truth that interoperability bugs 
need to be fixed but other bugs don't?  A bug that give wrong 
financial results is less important than mojibake sometimes
displayed on a web page?  A bug that cause a connection failure 
is more important than a bug that silently corrupts saved data?
Congratulations, you just won this week's jmf prize (with apologies
to jmf.)

>> You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
>> going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
>> No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
>> and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.
>> Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
>> by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only)
>> software is the norm.
> 
> And there were Microsoft people in the same era who, by Bill, weren't
> going to pollute their software with any kind of standards
> compatibility. 

I don't think that is analogous in the same way. 
 
Unlike most people here, who seem to be driven by an personal
(and emotional judging from the language used) distaste for 
GG posts, and a similar emotional response against MS by the 
Unix elitists in the 1990s, Microsoft's alleged "embrace, 
extend, extinguish" policy was/is (I'm pretty sure) carefully 
thought out and based on rational analysis.

> Let's look at just one product, Internet Explorer:
[...snip MSIE version history claiming decreasing market share 
and increasing standards compliance...]

Not a convincing example at all.  First its not even clear that 
what the factors driving such change are; open standards are only 
one factor.  Not should you assume that all open standards are 
equally important and that MS' (or Google's) response will be 
the same to all standards across all product lines.

Two, although you present MSIE as changing in response to demands
to "match [other browsers] in behaviour" you leave out demands on
those other browsers (and standards) to adopt features of MSIE.  
A unfortunate example might be the W3C consideration (maybe approved 
by now?) of DRM.  It is not a one-way street and standards are 
not cast in stone.

Finally it is an absurd stretch to take pressure applied by large 
corporate customers to MS to adopt more open standards as comparable
to a handful of people in a non-major programming language mailing
list refusing to read posts from GG.

I am not saying that you shouldn't continue to promote your boycott
against Google, just that you shouldn't be surprised or get angry
when the response of some people is similar to my response towards
some friends who want me to stop eating meat to fight factory farming.

> Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
> that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only.

As much Mac-only software as Windows-only? Possibly, but I doubt 
it although I acknowledge things are moving in that direction. 
As much Linux-only software as Windows-only?  You must be smoking
crack. :-)

> And far far more that's
> cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
> interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
> written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
> to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
> and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
> other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
> other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
> If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.

TELNET?  Does any one still use that except perhaps on secure, 
controlled legacy intranets?  We nuked that and other protocols 
of it's era (FTP etc) for ssh and other (more) secure protocols 
ages ago.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 00:29:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:29:43 +1100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <dcb04c1f-47f0-472e-add9-0222ae5984ef@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3739.1386530226.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <95f70ade-57a5-4537-85ba-1b612812212f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3757.1386558363.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3c0b48b6-2129-4e36-a455-525d6c2da3dc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3764.1386577308.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dcb04c1f-47f0-472e-add9-0222ae5984ef@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpPQAU=SKSJy7QcYQqmuPARX3v68KaLe0+D13kp1MAm4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
>> that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only.
>
> As much Mac-only software as Windows-only? Possibly, but I doubt
> it although I acknowledge things are moving in that direction.
> As much Linux-only software as Windows-only?  You must be smoking
> crack. :-)

Or just using Linux. Stuff that runs only on Linux is actually a bit
of a problem at times - coders making assumptions about the
environment that aren't guaranteed, and merely happen to be correct on
all current versions of the Linux kernel.

>> And far far more that's
>> cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
>> interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
>> written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
>> to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
>> and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
>> other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
>> other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
>> If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.
>
> TELNET?  Does any one still use that except perhaps on secure,
> controlled legacy intranets?  We nuked that and other protocols
> of it's era (FTP etc) for ssh and other (more) secure protocols
> ages ago.

TELNET protocol is the fundamental basis of MUDs. Doesn't mean there's
a TELNET server at the other end.

ChrisA


From ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid  Sun Dec  8 21:02:32 2013
From: ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid (YBM)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 03:02:32 +0100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3737.1386529135.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <78e2bedb-edcb-47ab-a89d-b62d60611481@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a524b8$0$2299$426a34cc@news.free.fr>

Le 08.12.2013 20:06, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ?crit :
> i get it, thanks a lot i wrote a different one and it works
>
> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>      print(people)

No it doesn't. You are printing things not returning something.

and combine_list is the most stupidest function you could write
in Python, as it is built-in with the name 'zip'.

  >>> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 
'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
  >>> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
  >>> dic = dict(zip(name,age))
  >>> def people(age):
  ...     ''' How stupid it is to write three line for a one-line
              function'''
  ...     return [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
  ...
  >>> people(20)
  ['Gary', 'Alice', 'Frank']

Sorry for having being rude, but :
1. you shouldn't post raw homework in any kind of public group
(aren't you supposed to learn something by yourself ?)
2. your teacher is a nut.






From john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net  Sun Dec  8 14:21:26 2013
From: john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net (John Ladasky)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 11:21:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e10a9b1d-d92a-498d-8f53-62ab8fa01b99@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:32:31 AM UTC-8, rafae... at gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

> def people(age):
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>
> people(20)

[snip]

> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part.

Well then, don't use it!  It's clear that you are new, and at least you have posted some code now, so let me try to help.

>and this code doesn't give me any result

Right, for TWO reasons.

First problem: if your function does not end with a statement like "return people", the function returns a special Python object called None.

Now, if it were me, I would not "wrap" the calculation of your "people" list inside a "people" function for such a short program.  But this is apparently a requirement of your assignment.  My guess is, in the future, you will write a program that calls the people function multiple times.

The "lambda" word has to do with creating something called an "anonymous one-line function."  You don't need that here.  It's more advanced Python.

What you want to do is compute and, importantly, return a list calculated from your dictionary.  That is accomplished by this expression:

"[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]"

This is called a "list comprehension."  Do you understand what this does?  It's fairly advanced.  I don't teach list comprehensions to my Python students for the first several lessons.

So, now that you have created the list, let's make sure that Python doesn't lose it.  Let's assign a NAME to it.  By the way, it's probably not good form to use the same name for a function and any of its internal variables.  Pick a different name for your list: for example, "p".  Then, return p from your function to your main program.  My suggested rewrite of your function would be:

"""
def people(age):
    p = [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
    return p
"""

The truth is that you can cut this down by even one more line.  This function doesn't need to hold on to the result after it is done returning it, but the computation of the result can be accomplished in one line.  Therefore this will also work:

"""
def people(age):
    return [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
"""

OK, that takes care of Problem 1.

Second problem: you call the "people" function with your statement "people(20)", but you don't do anything with the output.  Once you fix the people function by providing a proper return statement, what does the main program do with the output of the function?  Right now, it just throws it away.  

One solution to the problem is to make sure that the function's output gets a name. Try:

"""
result = people(20)
"""

Now, what do you want to do with result?  I will wait to see your answer on that one before I intervene again.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Dec  8 19:00:38 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 13:00:38 +1300
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bgkfh8Fa776U1@mid.individual.net>

rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:

> def people(age):
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
> 
> but i don't get the lambda age part.

Just to explain: YBM has tried to sabotage you by posting a
solution that uses a couple of advanced Python features
(lambda and list comprehensions) that a beginner would be
unlikely to know about. The idea is that if you had simply
handed that code in as-is, your teacher would know that you
had almost certainly not written it yourself.

Anyhow, you seem to be almost there. The only thing now
is that your function needs to *return* the result instead
of printing it out. To illustrate with a different example,
you currently have a function like this:

    def add(a, b):
       print a + b

This is fine as far as it goes, but the drawback is that
printing out the result is all it will ever do. You're
being asked to write a function like this:

    def add(a, b):
       return a + b

This is much more useful, because you can do anything you
like with the result, e.g.

    print add(2, 3) * add(4, 5)

-- 
Greg


From ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid  Sun Dec  8 20:51:38 2013
From: ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid (YBM)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 02:51:38 +0100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <bgkfh8Fa776U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
 <bgkfh8Fa776U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52a5222a$0$2408$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 09.12.2013 01:00, Gregory Ewing a ?crit :
> rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> def people(age):
>>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>>
>> but i don't get the lambda age part.
>
> Just to explain: YBM has tried to sabotage you by posting a
> solution that uses a couple of advanced Python features
> (lambda and list comprehensions) that a beginner would be
> unlikely to know about.

Oh! I've been caught!

;-)

My point is not that I had a problem with the OP (btw asking for
homework in a public group always irrates me), but that the teacher of
the OP is incredibly stupid and illiterate (or should I say
illluterate ?)

So I tried to catch both.





From ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid  Sun Dec  8 21:31:53 2013
From: ybmess at nooos.fr.invalid (YBM)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 03:31:53 +0100
Subject: python programming help
In-Reply-To: <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
References: <264c1144-5d04-4ad0-aa32-f4e6770d210c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3733.1386527267.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2243d31b-f2cb-484a-b6a3-f9f265aa8fd6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a52b99$0$2109$426a74cc@news.free.fr>

Le 08.12.2013 19:32, rafaellasav at gmail.com a ?crit :
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
>> On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
>>
>>> please help
>>
>> Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well
>>
>> that's not what we do on this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need
>>
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write
>>
>> and run Python programs.
>
> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
> dic={}
> def combine_lists(name,age):
>      for i in range(len(name)):
>          dic[name[i]]= age[i]
> combine_lists(name,age)
> print dic
>
> def people(age):
>      people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>
> people(20)
>
>
>
>
> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result
>

You didn't write a function which return a result, so you have no
result.




From vasudevram at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 15:02:12 2013
From: vasudevram at gmail.com (vasudevram)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:02:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Domino, a Python PaaS for data science
Message-ID: <48194ed6-1fc1-4c48-8c53-4eb23ad82a7b@googlegroups.com>

Hi list,

This may be of interest:

Domino, a Python PaaS for data science:

http://jugad2.blogspot.in/2013/12/domino-paas-for-data-science.html

- Vasudev Ram
Software training and consulting
Python, Linux, C, open source, databases ...
www.dancingbison.com
jugad2.blogspot.com


From chip9munk at gmail.com  Sun Dec  8 15:25:24 2013
From: chip9munk at gmail.com (chip9munk at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2013 12:25:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: django - adding a button with parallel functionality
Message-ID: <d099a464-6fa6-47a2-8eda-aa87223a0aeb@googlegroups.com>

Hi all! I'll try to be clear and brief.

I have created a django project some months ago. It is an online survey.
Now I want to add a button that when pressed adds something to a database, but does not change any existing functionalities. 

Brief explanation:
button will always be present at the pages with survey questions,
when pressed it will simply add a page number (at which page user decided to press the button) to a database, but the user will continue with the survey as normal.
(when the button is pressed, the view, template, questions at hand should not change. Nothing changes for the survey subject!)

My question is how to simply add this button without interfering with the survey.
I do not need detailed instructions with models, views, templates, etc. just brief idea if it is possible to do that without adding new view, reloading view, adding forms etc...

(If anyone is interested.. the button will be used to mark when (at which page) the user gets bored with questions, it is for the pilot testing of the survey. pilot users will press the button but then continue with the survey.)

Thanks in advance!

Best,

chip


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec  8 16:27:22 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 16:27:22 -0500
Subject: django - adding a button with parallel functionality
References: <d099a464-6fa6-47a2-8eda-aa87223a0aeb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-C56CC3.16272208122013@news.panix.com>

In article <d099a464-6fa6-47a2-8eda-aa87223a0aeb at googlegroups.com>,
 chip9munk at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi all! I'll try to be clear and brief.
> 
> I have created a django project some months ago. It is an online survey.
> Now I want to add a button that when pressed adds something to a database, 
> but does not change any existing functionalities. 
> 
> Brief explanation:
> button will always be present at the pages with survey questions,
> when pressed it will simply add a page number (at which page user decided to 
> press the button) to a database, but the user will continue with the survey 
> as normal.
> (when the button is pressed, the view, template, questions at hand should not 
> change. Nothing changes for the survey subject!)
> 
> My question is how to simply add this button without interfering with the 
> survey.
> I do not need detailed instructions with models, views, templates, etc. just 
> brief idea if it is possible to do that without adding new view, reloading 
> view, adding forms etc...

Offhand, it sounds like you need a button wired up to some javascript 
which fires off an asynchronous HTTP request.  But, since you haven't 
really described anything about the structure of your application, 
that's just a wild guess.

Almost certainly, the real answer has nothing to do with Python, however.


From levinie at qq.com  Mon Dec  9 03:38:19 2013
From: levinie at qq.com (=?gb18030?B?bGV2aW5pZQ==?=)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 16:38:19 +0800
Subject: Qml Error on CentOS6.4 when ./configure ?
Message-ID: <tencent_5C1D497C6091C1556A0B8FC1@qq.com>

I install latest QT5 and PyQt5 on CentOS6.4
And here is some error:

g++ -c -pipe -O2 -fPIC -Wall -W -D_REENTRANT -DQT_NO_DEBUG -DQT_QML_LIB -DQT_NETWORK_LIB -DQT_GUI_LIB -DQT_CORE_LIB -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/mkspecs/linux-g++ -I. -I. -I../../QtQml -I/opt/python/include/python2.7 -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/include -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/include/QtQml -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/include/QtNetwork -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/include/QtGui -I/opt/Qt/5.1.1/gcc_64/include/QtCore -I. -o qpyqml_register_type.o qpyqml_register_type.cpp
qpyqml_register_type.cpp: In function ?QQmlPrivate::RegisterType* init_type(PyTypeObject*, bool, int, PyTypeObject*)?:
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:262: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:263: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:264: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:265: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:266: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:267: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:268: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:269: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:270: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:271: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:272: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:273: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:274: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:275: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:276: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:277: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:278: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:279: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:280: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
qpyqml_register_type.cpp:281: error: insufficient contextual information to determine type
make[2]: *** [qpyqml_register_type.o] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/root/Downloads/PyQt-gpl-5.1.1/qpy/QtQml'
make[1]: *** [sub-QtQml-make_first] Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory `/root/Downloads/PyQt-gpl-5.1.1/qpy'
make: *** [sub-qpy-make_first-ordered] Error 2
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 10 05:46:18 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 10:46:18 GMT
Subject: Qml Error on CentOS6.4 when ./configure ?
References: <mailman.3765.1386578373.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a6f0f9$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:38:19 +0800, levinie wrote:

> I install latest QT5 and PyQt5 on CentOS6.4 And here is some error:

Sorry, I have no experience installing QT or PyQT. If you don't get a 
response here, perhaps you should try on a dedicated QT or PyQT forum.

It will probably help if you explain:

- How did you install QT and PyQT? Did you use yum or did you install 
from source?

- Is this error when you are installing QT or PyQT?

- Which exact version? Is it a stable or unstable version?


Good luck!



-- 
Steven


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 03:41:57 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 00:41:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax; check
 the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the
 right syntax
 to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
Message-ID: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>

from BeautifulSoup import BeautifulSoup
import re, urllib2,  MySQLdb
#MySQLdb.escape_string(" ")
import sys
import unicodedata

if __name__=="__main__":
    #link = raw_input("Enter the url link: ")
    db = MySQLdb.connect("localhost","root","", "ebay")
    cursor=db.cursor()
    link = "http://www.ebay.com/sch/Mens-Shoes-/93427/i.html?_pppn=r1&_dcat=93427&LH_ItemCondition=1000%7C1500"
    link1 =db.escape_string(link)
    page = urllib2.urlopen(link)
    soup = BeautifulSoup(page)
    
    Contents = soup.findAll(itemprop = "name")
    lst_content = []
    for x in Contents:
        x = x.string
        lst_content.append(x)
    Price = soup.findAll(itemprop = "price")
    lst_price =[]
    for y in Price:
        y = y.string
        lst_price.append(y)
    for x , y in zip(lst_content, lst_price):
        sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
        #print sql
        sql = unicodedata.normalize('NFKD', sql).encode('ascii','ignore')
        #sys.exit(0)
        cursor.execute(sql)
        db.commit()
    db.close()



+++++++++++++++++++++++

error occur

ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
>>> 


From daniel at daniel-watkins.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 04:32:04 2013
From: daniel at daniel-watkins.co.uk (Daniel Watkins)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 09:32:04 +0000
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax;
 check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right
 syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
In-Reply-To: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
References: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131209093204.GV22882@daniel-watkins.co.uk>

On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 12:41:57AM -0800, Jai wrote:
>         sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
>         sql = unicodedata.normalize('NFKD', sql).encode('ascii','ignore')
>         cursor.execute(sql)
> 
> ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")

Though you haven't given the full traceback, I suspect that the lines
above are what is causing your problem.  My best guess is that you're
being hit by a form of SQL injection[0], in that the values you are
combining in to your query have single quotes which are resulting in an
SQL statement that looks like:

    insert into `category` (url, category, price) VALUES ('...', 'MEN'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99');

As you can see, the second value you are passing has mismatched quotes.
This is a common problem, so the MySQLdb library handles it by allowing
you to pass in the values you want to cursor.execute; it then takes care
of escaping them correctly:

    sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""
    cursor.execute(sql, (link1, x, y))

I'm not 100% sure what the Unicode normalisation is meant to be doing,
so you'll have to work out how to integrate that yourself.


Cheers,

Dan


[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL_injection


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec  9 13:06:21 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:06:21 +0000
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax;
 check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right
 syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
In-Reply-To: <20131209093204.GV22882@daniel-watkins.co.uk>
References: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
 <20131209093204.GV22882@daniel-watkins.co.uk>
Message-ID: <52A6069D.20000@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 09/12/2013 09:32, Daniel Watkins wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 09, 2013 at 12:41:57AM -0800, Jai wrote:
>>         sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
>>         sql = unicodedata.normalize('NFKD', sql).encode('ascii','ignore')
>>         cursor.execute(sql)
>>
>> ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
>
> Though you haven't given the full traceback, I suspect that the lines
> above are what is causing your problem.  My best guess is that you're
> being hit by a form of SQL injection[0], in that the values you are
> combining in to your query have single quotes which are resulting in an
> SQL statement that looks like:
>
>      insert into `category` (url, category, price) VALUES ('...', 'MEN'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99');
>
> As you can see, the second value you are passing has mismatched quotes.
> This is a common problem, so the MySQLdb library handles it by allowing
> you to pass in the values you want to cursor.execute; it then takes care
> of escaping them correctly:
>
>      sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""
>      cursor.execute(sql, (link1, x, y))
>
You shouldn't put quotes around the placeholders:

     sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES (%s, 
%s, %s)"""
     cursor.execute(sql, (link1, x, y))

> I'm not 100% sure what the Unicode normalisation is meant to be doing,
> so you'll have to work out how to integrate that yourself.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SQL_injection
>



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 04:36:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 20:36:11 +1100
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax;
 check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right
 syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
In-Reply-To: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
References: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrH=yT0dozR8DJuWcVt5AqVeoPcFyXJL0OhssJyPAZqwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
>     for x , y in zip(lst_content, lst_price):
>         sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
>         #print sql
>         sql = unicodedata.normalize('NFKD', sql).encode('ascii','ignore')
>         #sys.exit(0)
>         cursor.execute(sql)

My reading of your error message suggests that you just came across an
item category with an apostrophe in it. What you've done here is
horribly dangerous - it's an invitation for SQL injection attacks. Do
not EVER do this sort of thing, it will always come back to bite you!

Look into parameterized queries. They are the right way to do this.
Read up on SQL injection and how to avoid it.

Also: Encoding to ASCII, ignore, is a bad idea. You'll do far better
to tell MySQL to use UTF-8 and then store true Unicode. Though you may
find that you'll do better to get a better database like PostgreSQL,
as MySQL has been known to have some issues with Unicode (not sure if
they're all fixed; MySQL has enough other problems that I don't bother
with it any more).

Small tip, also: Spelling "VAlUES" with a lower-case L is only going
to confuse people, mainly yourself :) You also seem to be inconsistent
with your names - the table is called "category" (I don't think it's a
reserved word, so the escaping is unnecessary there), and the column
is "catagory". Is one of those incorrect?

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:23:27 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:23:27 -0800
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax;
 check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right
 syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
In-Reply-To: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
References: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oxPpHHa67PaMfgvbaQOgHBsDMH+FRBWgO0F7xYCuOWbg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>         sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES
> ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
>

Is that VALUES or VAlUES or VAIUES?   It probably should be VALUES.
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:28:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 03:28:22 +1100
Subject: ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax;
 check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right
 syntax to use near 'S SIZE 11.5 NEW IN BOX', '$49.99')' at line 1")
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_oxPpHHa67PaMfgvbaQOgHBsDMH+FRBWgO0F7xYCuOWbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b73a879-b490-48cb-a896-4d4abee90bf5@googlegroups.com>
 <CAGGBd_oxPpHHa67PaMfgvbaQOgHBsDMH+FRBWgO0F7xYCuOWbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoNVPkB2Rfo84jNAVWu7WpMyY-PX6WaZTx6b9CrP5SBKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:23 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:41 AM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>         sql = """insert into `category` (url, catagory,price) VAlUES
>> ('%s', '%s', '%s')"""%(link1,x,y)
>
>
> Is that VALUES or VAlUES or VAIUES?   It probably should be VALUES.

SQL's case insensitive. But I did have to check carefully to see that
that really was correct.

ChrisA


From dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de  Mon Dec  9 06:49:46 2013
From: dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de (Johannes Bauer)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:49:46 +0100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
Message-ID: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>

Hi group,

it's somewhat OT here, but I have a puzzle to which I would like a
solution -- but I'm unsure how I should tackle the problem with Python.
But it's a fun puzzle, so maybe it'll be appreciated here.

The question is: How do you design a boolean circuit that contains at
most 2 NOT gates, but may contain as many AND or OR gates that inverts
three inputs? IOW: Build three inverters by using only two inverters
(and an infinite amount of AND/OR).

Surprisingly, this is possible (and I even know the solution, but won't
give it away just yet).

I found this puzzle again and was thinking about: How would I code a
brute-force approach to this problem in Python? And to my surprise, it
isn't as easy as I thought. So I'm looking for some advice from you guys
(never huts to improve ones coding skills).

Best regards,
Johannes

-- 
>> Wo hattest Du das Beben nochmal GENAU vorhergesagt?
> Zumindest nicht ?ffentlich!
Ah, der neueste und bis heute genialste Streich unsere gro?en
Kosmologen: Die Geheim-Vorhersage.
 - Karl Kaos ?ber R?diger Thomas in dsa <hidbv3$om2$1 at speranza.aioe.org>


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:25:45 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:25:45 +1100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo7+x68de6NR97E7jWRcez6bdy4Z-gZAuXekK=AoNgZXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:49 PM, Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de> wrote:
> The question is: How do you design a boolean circuit that contains at
> most 2 NOT gates, but may contain as many AND or OR gates that inverts
> three inputs? IOW: Build three inverters by using only two inverters
> (and an infinite amount of AND/OR).
>
> I found this puzzle again and was thinking about: How would I code a
> brute-force approach to this problem in Python?

Ooooh interesting!

Well, here's a start: There's no value in combining the same value in
an AND or an OR, ergo every gate you add must bring together two
different values.

To start with, you have three values (the three inputs). Every time
you combine two of them, with either type of gate, you create a new
value. You can also combine a single value with a NOT to create its
inverse, but only if you have done so no more than once.

The goal is to produce something which is provably the opposite of
each of the three inputs.

I'm not sure if this helps or not, but one thing I learned from
geometry is that setting down everything you know and need to know is
a good basis for the search!

The hardest part, so far, is proving a result. The algorithm that's
coming to mind is this:

def find_solution(inputs, not_count):
    # TODO: First, see if inputs contains three values that are the inverses of
    # the three values i1,i2,i3. If they are, throw something, that's probably
    # the easiest way to unwind the stack.
    if not_count < 2:
        for val in inputs:
            find_solution(inputs + [not val], not_count + 1)
    for val1 in inputs:
        for val2 in inputs:
            if val1 is not val2:
                find_solution(inputs + [val1 and val2], not_count)
                find_solution(inputs + [val1 or val2], not_count)

find_solution([i1, i2, i3], 0)

So, here's a crazy idea: Make i1, i2, i3 into objects of a type with
an __eq__ that actually does the verification. Schrodinger's Objects:
they might be True, might be False, and until you call __eq__, they're
in both states. This probably isn't the best way, but I think it's the
most fun!

I couldn't make this work with the and/or/not operators, so I'm using
the &/|/~ operators, which can be overridden.

So! There's the basics, but it's a depth-first search, which means
it's bound to hit the recursion limit. Refinement needed;
specifically, it needs to not add any input that's equal to any other.
That's easy enough.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to prove that the code works,
because even with some changes it's taking way too long. But hey, it's
a crazy fun piece to work with!



class Schrodinger:
    def __init__(self, bit):
        self.state = bit
    def coalesce(self, master):
        return bool(master & self.state)
    def __len__(self):
        return 1;
    def __invert__(self):
        return Negated(self)
    def __and__(self, other):
        return Anded((self, other))
    def __or__(self, other):
        return Ored((self, other))
    def __eq__(self, other):
        for master in range(8):
            if self.coalesce(master) != other.coalesce(master):
                return False
        return True
    def __repr__(self):
        return "$%d" % self.state

class Negated(Schrodinger):
    def coalesce(self, master):
        return not self.state.coalesce(master)
    def __len__(self):
        return len(self.state) + 1
    def __repr__(self):
        return "not %r" % self.state

class Anded(Schrodinger):
    def coalesce(self, master):
        return self.state[0].coalesce(master) and self.state[1].coalesce(master)
    def __len__(self):
        return len(self.state[0]) + len(self.state[1]) + 1
    def __repr__(self):
        return "%r and %r" % self.state

class Ored(Schrodinger):
    def coalesce(self, master):
        return self.state[0].coalesce(master) or self.state[1].coalesce(master)
    def __len__(self):
        return len(self.state[0]) + len(self.state[1]) + 1
    def __repr__(self):
        return "%r or %r" % self.state

class SolutionFound(Exception):
    pass

def find_solution(inputs, not_count):
    # First see if the newest input is equal to anything we already have.
    # If it is, we gain nothing by probing this.
    if inputs[-1] in inputs[:-1]: return
    # Then, see if inputs contains three values that are the inverses of
    # the three values i1,i2,i3. If they are, throw something, that's probably
    # the easiest way to unwind the stack.
    try:
        raise SolutionFound("""Solution:
~$1 = %r
~$2 = %r
~$4 = %r""" % (
            inputs[inputs.index(~inputs[0])],
            inputs[inputs.index(~inputs[1])],
            inputs[inputs.index(~inputs[2])],
        ))
    except ValueError:
        pass # ValueError means one of the negations wasn't found.
    if not_count < 2:
        for val in inputs:
            find_solution(inputs + [~val], not_count + 1)
    for val1 in inputs:
        for val2 in inputs:
            find_solution(inputs + [val1 & val2], not_count)
            find_solution(inputs + [val1 | val2], not_count)

i1 = Schrodinger(1)
i2 = Schrodinger(2)
i3 = Schrodinger(4)
find_solution([i1, i2, i3], 0)



ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 20:41:46 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:41:46 +1100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmo7+x68de6NR97E7jWRcez6bdy4Z-gZAuXekK=AoNgZXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <CAPTjJmo7+x68de6NR97E7jWRcez6bdy4Z-gZAuXekK=AoNgZXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqEaATW4GPdnF8C_CdxSJX7JL__MEW9Udh18r-ajwhXkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 12:25 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately I haven't been able to prove that the code works,
> because even with some changes it's taking way too long. But hey, it's
> a crazy fun piece to work with!

Well... it eventually solved the problem. I don't know how many CPU
hours it took but it threw a SolutionFound exception eventually.

Unfortunately I didn't parenthesize the display. The solution seems to
involve using a NOT gate and then splitting its output, so you'll see
more than two instances of 'not' in the output. This is definitely not
an optimal solution, but hey, you asked for a brute-force solver!

~$1 = $4 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $4 and not $1 and $2
or $4 and $1 or $2 or $2 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $2
and not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 or not $2 or $1 or $4 and $2 and
$1 and $4 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2
~$2 = $4 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $4 and not $1 and $2
or $4 and $1 or $2 or $1 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $1
and not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 or not $2 or $1 or $4 and $2 and
$1 and $4 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2
~$4 = $2 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $2 and not $1 and $2
or $4 and $1 or $2 or $1 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 and $1
and not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2 or not $2 or $1 or $4 and $2 and
$1 and $4 or not $1 and $2 or $4 and $1 or $2

ChrisA


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:19:25 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:19:25 -0500
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+y8yH-vJ8JCgk+cNY80J_5qGJVAJXFDFTt9FJgT3gxbTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi group,
>
> it's somewhat OT here, but I have a puzzle to which I would like a
> solution -- but I'm unsure how I should tackle the problem with Python.
> But it's a fun puzzle, so maybe it'll be appreciated here.
>
> The question is: How do you design a boolean circuit that contains at
> most 2 NOT gates, but may contain as many AND or OR gates that inverts
> three inputs? IOW: Build three inverters by using only two inverters
> (and an infinite amount of AND/OR).
>
> Surprisingly, this is possible (and I even know the solution, but won't
> give it away just yet).
>
> I found this puzzle again and was thinking about: How would I code a
> brute-force approach to this problem in Python? And to my surprise, it
> isn't as easy as I thought. So I'm looking for some advice from you guys
> (never huts to improve ones coding skills).
>
> Best regards,
> Johannes
>
> I studied Electrical Engineering in college, so this puzzle grabbed my
attention.  For a couple of hours I played around thinking about how to
attack this problem  My first thought was that if you had two inverters
(NOT gates), you needed to create an inverter with and and or gates.  That
goes nowhere.  So, I googled around and found this:
http://www.thelowlyprogrammer.com/2008/05/not-puzzle-solution.html (spoiler
alert).  It discusses how you can solve the problem, but it doesn't give
python code.  As it ends up I implemented that solution in 18 lines of code

So, my hint is that it can be solved by creating several simultaneous
equations

I'll send my code along if someone asks, but I don't want to post it here
because I'm sure others will want to figure it out on their own.



> --
> >> Wo hattest Du das Beben nochmal GENAU vorhergesagt?
> > Zumindest nicht ?ffentlich!
> Ah, der neueste und bis heute genialste Streich unsere gro?en
> Kosmologen: Die Geheim-Vorhersage.
>  - Karl Kaos ?ber R?diger Thomas in dsa <hidbv3$om2$1 at speranza.aioe.org>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net  Mon Dec  9 15:39:18 2013
From: john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net (John Ladasky)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 12:39:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Spoiler alert? (Re: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits)
In-Reply-To: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <ba1c6a50-0847-42f0-9e3d-623064e71e12@googlegroups.com>

It has been ages since I've thought about logic gates, but... 

(Spoiler alert?  I'm not sure...)
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .
 .

My thought is that with two NOT logic gates, you can only build a flip-flop memory circuit.  That strongly suggests to me that a memory circuit would actually be used to solve the problem somehow.  

I'm thinking that feedback loops would have to be involved, no matter what the solution is.  A need for feedback loops would make it very hard to write code to look for the solution automatically.  The dimensionality of the search space will be high.


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:45:51 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:45:51 -0500
Subject: Spoiler alert? (Re: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits)
In-Reply-To: <ba1c6a50-0847-42f0-9e3d-623064e71e12@googlegroups.com>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <ba1c6a50-0847-42f0-9e3d-623064e71e12@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wX3867iywxBPsHrgksiK0g714u5pHrpvEggTM=TG4zhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:39 PM, John Ladasky <john_ladasky at sbcglobal.net>wrote:

> It has been ages since I've thought about logic gates, but...
>
> My thought is that with two NOT logic gates, you can only build a
> flip-flop memory circuit.  That strongly suggests to me that a memory
> circuit would actually be used to solve the problem somehow.
>
> Two NOT gates plus as many AND and OR gates as you need.


> I'm thinking that feedback loops would have to be involved, no matter what
> the solution is.  A need for feedback loops would make it very hard to
> write code to look for the solution automatically.  The dimensionality of
> the search space will be high.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 21:03:21 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:03:21 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+z4vuhoyKuEVdoYxJe42qhXT89GQTyQEHGjvm+c8yV3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <CAPM-O+z4vuhoyKuEVdoYxJe42qhXT89GQTyQEHGjvm+c8yV3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+yssdgztsRZjZOWE8k8OaB_2sg3nnd1zQM=osZ0ggE0ow@mail.gmail.com>

Chris, and all.. Since you posted yours, I post this for your pleasure.  I
couldn't figure out what you were doing.

#!/usr/bin/env python

"""
This is a puzzle brought up on the python mailing list.
The goal is to take 3 bits and invert them using boolean logic, but
restricted to only 2 NOT gates
Here is a solution I found via google:
http://www.thelowlyprogrammer.com/2008/05/not-puzzle-solution.html
"""

def invert_three(a,b,c):

    """ give three boolean values, return their inverted values
    Only 2 NOT operators are allowed
    Deduce these truths
    """
    all_ones = a and b and c
    two_or_three = (a and b) or (a and c) or (b and c)
    zero_or_one = not two_or_three
    one_one = zero_or_one and (a or b or c)
    zero_or_two = not (all_ones or one_one)
    zero_ones = zero_or_one and zero_or_two
    two_ones = zero_or_two and two_or_three

    # the output is true if all the inputs are zero, or if one of the
inputs is zero and it is either b or c
    # or two inputs are zero and they are b and c
    # ditto for other two inputs
    x = zero_ones or (one_one and (b or c)) or (two_ones and (b and c))
    y = zero_ones or (one_one and (a or c)) or (two_ones and (a and c))
    z = zero_ones or (one_one and (b or a)) or (two_ones and (b and a))
    return int(x), int(y), int(z)

if __name__ == "__main__":
    for a in range(2):
        for b in range(2):
            for c in range(2):
                print "Input: ", a, b, c,
                x, y, z = invert_three(a,b,c)
                print "Output: ", x, y, z


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 21:21:46 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:21:46 +1100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+yssdgztsRZjZOWE8k8OaB_2sg3nnd1zQM=osZ0ggE0ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <CAPM-O+z4vuhoyKuEVdoYxJe42qhXT89GQTyQEHGjvm+c8yV3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+yssdgztsRZjZOWE8k8OaB_2sg3nnd1zQM=osZ0ggE0ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoz1A2ASai3sZFXdJ9jaYDV-BGPgfdgGGTz-b4e3uuqKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Joel Goldstick
<joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris, and all.. Since you posted yours, I post this for your pleasure.  I
> couldn't figure out what you were doing.
> [chomp Python implementation of a fairly elegant solution]

That's a fairly nice piece of code that comes from a deliberate
solution. What the OP asked was how to devise a brute-force solver.

Grab the four class definitions from my code a few posts ago, and then
tweak your code to use them:

a = Schrodinger(1)
b = Schrodinger(2)
c = Schrodinger(4)
all_ones = a & b & c
two_or_three = (a & b) | (a & c) | (b & c)
zero_or_one = ~two_or_three
one_one = zero_or_one & (a | b | c)
zero_or_two = ~(all_ones | one_one)
zero_ones = zero_or_one & zero_or_two
two_ones = zero_or_two & two_or_three

# the output is true if all the inputs are zero, | if one of the
inputs is zero & it is either b | c
# | two inputs are zero & they are b & c
# ditto f| other two inputs
x = zero_ones | (one_one & (b | c)) | (two_ones & (b & c))
y = zero_ones | (one_one & (a | c)) | (two_ones & (a & c))
z = zero_ones | (one_one & (b | a)) | (two_ones & (b & a))
if x == ~a: print(x)
if y == ~b: print(y)
if z == ~c: print(z)

Output: (I tweaked my __repr__ functions to parenthesize for clarity)

(((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($2 or $4))) or ((not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
$4))) and ($2 and $4)))
(((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($1 or $4))) or ((not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
$4))) and ($1 and $4)))
(((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($2 or $1))) or ((not ((($1 and
$2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
(($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
$4))) and ($2 and $1)))

Okay, so maybe the brute-force-discovered version isn't so bad after all. :)

The classes allow "a and b == c" to be evaluated for all possible
values of a, b, and c, so the brute-forcing actually accumulates data
and only subsequently evaluates it. It's far from the most efficient
solution (took hours on an i5 CPU), but it's fun :)

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 03:50:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:50:40 +1100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoz1A2ASai3sZFXdJ9jaYDV-BGPgfdgGGTz-b4e3uuqKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <CAPM-O+z4vuhoyKuEVdoYxJe42qhXT89GQTyQEHGjvm+c8yV3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+yssdgztsRZjZOWE8k8OaB_2sg3nnd1zQM=osZ0ggE0ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoz1A2ASai3sZFXdJ9jaYDV-BGPgfdgGGTz-b4e3uuqKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoC9X1W+ML8Vq_UJMCzu_7h0tpRMRi_dSBPJHzqdWrSJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> Output: (I tweaked my __repr__ functions to parenthesize for clarity)
>
> (((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
> and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($2 or $4))) or ((not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
> $4))) and ($2 and $4)))
> (((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
> and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($1 or $4))) or ((not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
> $4))) and ($1 and $4)))
> (((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
> and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($2 or $1))) or ((not ((($1 and
> $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and
> (($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
> $4))) and ($2 and $1)))
>
> Okay, so maybe the brute-force-discovered version isn't so bad after all. :)

I added the same parenthesizing to the brute force searcher and reran
it through 'time'.

~$1 = (($4 or not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($4 and
not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) or (($2 or not (($1 and $2)
or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($2 and not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1
or $2)))) or not (($2 or ($1 or $4)) and (($2 and ($1 and $4)) or not
(($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))))))))
~$2 = (($4 or not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($4 and
not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) or (($1 or not (($1 and $2)
or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($1 and not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1
or $2)))) or not (($2 or ($1 or $4)) and (($2 and ($1 and $4)) or not
(($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))))))))
~$4 = (($2 or not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($2 and
not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) or (($1 or not (($1 and $2)
or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($1 and not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1
or $2)))) or not (($2 or ($1 or $4)) and (($2 and ($1 and $4)) or not
(($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))))))))

real 362m12.261s
user 362m7.186s
sys 0m0.064s

Yes, that is indeed six full hours of CPU time for a simple problem. Ha!

It seems to have come up with something fairly similar, actually. A
bit shorter than the algebraic solution.

brute: (($4 or not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($4 and
not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) or (($2 or not (($1 and $2)
or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))) and (($2 and not (($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1
or $2)))) or not (($2 or ($1 or $4)) and (($2 and ($1 and $4)) or not
(($1 and $2) or ($4 and ($1 or $2)))))))))

algebra: (((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and $4)) and not
((($1 and $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
$4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)))) or ((not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4))
or ($2 and $4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4)) and ($2 or $4))) or ((not
((($1 and $2) and $4) or (not ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2 and
$4)) and (($1 or $2) or $4))) and ((($1 and $2) or ($1 and $4)) or ($2
and $4))) and ($2 and $4)))

Here's the most notable difference:
two_or_three = (a & b) | (a & c) | (b & c)
can be simplified to:
two_or_three = (a & b) | (c & (a | b))
That's one less gate in an early step. Even applying that change,
though, the brute-forced solution is still a bit shorter. Looks like
the algebraic solution could have a bit of optimization done!

ChrisA


From antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be  Tue Dec 10 09:25:42 2013
From: antoon.pardon at rece.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:25:42 +0100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <52A72466.6060306@rece.vub.ac.be>

Op 09-12-13 12:49, Johannes Bauer schreef:
> Hi group,
> 
> it's somewhat OT here, but I have a puzzle to which I would like a
> solution -- but I'm unsure how I should tackle the problem with Python.
> But it's a fun puzzle, so maybe it'll be appreciated here.
> 
> The question is: How do you design a boolean circuit that contains at
> most 2 NOT gates, but may contain as many AND or OR gates that inverts
> three inputs? IOW: Build three inverters by using only two inverters
> (and an infinite amount of AND/OR).
> 
> Surprisingly, this is possible (and I even know the solution, but won't
> give it away just yet).
> 
> I found this puzzle again and was thinking about: How would I code a
> brute-force approach to this problem in Python? And to my surprise, it
> isn't as easy as I thought. So I'm looking for some advice from you guys
> (never huts to improve ones coding skills).

Well I would make some kind of connecter type, that would have a binary
vector associated with it. How do we calculate bit n of a connector?

Take the three input signals, i0, i1, i2, these can be seen as a binary
digits. So suppose we have input 0, 1, 0 then bit 2 of the connector
would be the value of that connector with these input signals.

The original three connectors would have the following values:
01010101, 00110011, 00001111.

What you can do now is make new connectors by combining them with
an or, and or not port and search for those whose value is 10101010,
11001100 and 11110000.

-- 
Antoon Pardon



From dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de  Wed Dec 11 08:52:40 2013
From: dfnsonfsduifb at gmx.de (Johannes Bauer)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:52:40 +0100
Subject: Programming puzzle with boolean circuits
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3775.1386595556.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <l84aor$3mj$1@news.albasani.net>
 <mailman.3775.1386595556.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l89qn8$h7h$1@news.albasani.net>

On 09.12.2013 14:25, Chris Angelico wrote:

>> I found this puzzle again and was thinking about: How would I code a
>> brute-force approach to this problem in Python?
> 
> Ooooh interesting!

Ha, I thought so too :-)

> Well, here's a start: There's no value in combining the same value in
> an AND or an OR, ergo every gate you add must bring together two
> different values.
> 
> To start with, you have three values (the three inputs). Every time
> you combine two of them, with either type of gate, you create a new
> value. You can also combine a single value with a NOT to create its
> inverse, but only if you have done so no more than once.
> 
> The goal is to produce something which is provably the opposite of
> each of the three inputs.
> 
> I'm not sure if this helps or not, but one thing I learned from
> geometry is that setting down everything you know and need to know is
> a good basis for the search!

Absolutely.

> 
> The hardest part, so far, is proving a result. The algorithm that's
> coming to mind is this:
> 
> def find_solution(inputs, not_count):
>     # TODO: First, see if inputs contains three values that are the inverses of
>     # the three values i1,i2,i3. If they are, throw something, that's probably
>     # the easiest way to unwind the stack.
>     if not_count < 2:
>         for val in inputs:
>             find_solution(inputs + [not val], not_count + 1)
>     for val1 in inputs:
>         for val2 in inputs:
>             if val1 is not val2:
>                 find_solution(inputs + [val1 and val2], not_count)
>                 find_solution(inputs + [val1 or val2], not_count)
> 
> find_solution([i1, i2, i3], 0)

I understand your approach, it has given me some ideas too. Thanks for this!

> So, here's a crazy idea: Make i1, i2, i3 into objects of a type with
> an __eq__ that actually does the verification. Schrodinger's Objects:
> they might be True, might be False, and until you call __eq__, they're
> in both states. This probably isn't the best way, but I think it's the
> most fun!

Haha, it surely is a very cool idea!

Thanks for the ideas and your very cool approach. I'll try to tackle it
myself (I think I have a good point to start) and will post the code
once I'm finished.

Best regards,
Joe

-- 
>> Wo hattest Du das Beben nochmal GENAU vorhergesagt?
> Zumindest nicht ?ffentlich!
Ah, der neueste und bis heute genialste Streich unsere gro?en
Kosmologen: Die Geheim-Vorhersage.
 - Karl Kaos ?ber R?diger Thomas in dsa <hidbv3$om2$1 at speranza.aioe.org>


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 07:23:41 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 12:23:41 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.

The course is for ~100 1st year students with half studying
Engineering Mathematics and the other half Electrical Engineering.
Currently we introduce programming with C for the 1st semester and
then C++ for the 2nd semester. In the 3rd semester they learn Matlab
and following on from that they can take optional units run by the CS
department in Java, Haskell and many more. Our faculty does not
currently offer any Python courses for students at any level in CS or
Engineering.

Many of the students complain that the C course is too hard and my
experience is that it doesn't equip them with the general
understanding of programming that we really want them to get from the
first programming course. I'm not sure about the Electrical
Engineering students but the Engineering Mathematics students tend not
to use C/C++ once they have covered Matlab and just use Matlab for all
future projects, including in situations where it is highly
inappropriate.

In our recent meeting I proposed that Python should be the first
programming language, and others proposed that Java should be the
second. So we're currently evaluating the option of having Python in
the first semester followed by Java in the second. Both courses would
have to be created from scratch meaning that we would need to draw a
complete outline and syllabus by mid-January in order to roll this out
for the next academic year.

I think that the benefits of this would be that using an "easy"
language would be less distracting while we introduce the general
concepts of programming. What we really want is for the students to
focus on things like "why would I write a program?", "what kind of
things can I do with a program?" and "how would I go about writing a
program that does X?". Ideally by the end of the course we want that,
given a description of a simple command line program that would
perhaps calculate something or do some simple data processing, then
the students would feel confident that they could do that. I think
that using C distracts them from learning these more important general
lessons as they struggle with simple things like how to print output,
or avoid segmentation faults. Also ideally they would continue to use
the language, where appropriate, for subsequent project work (which is
when they would *really* learn the language).

Some of the objections to the idea that were voiced in the meeting were that:
1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard" unlike
C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.
2) Students should learn to program in a statically typed language
because it leads to good programming discipline.
3) Python is too close to Matlab (which is considered essential for
some industries our students often go in to).
4) It is better for students to be introduced to programming with a
low-level language so that they gain a better understanding of how
computers "really work".
5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
pain makes them better programmers in the end.

I'm particularly interested to know if anyone can share experience of
switching to teaching Python as a first programming language in a
similar context. A written up case study that I could circulate among
the relevant staff would be especially useful.


Thanks in advance,
Oscar


From gheskett at wdtv.com  Mon Dec  9 08:24:25 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:24:25 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Monday 09 December 2013 07:51:12 Oscar Benjamin did opine:

> Hi all,
> 
> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.
> 
> The course is for ~100 1st year students with half studying
> Engineering Mathematics and the other half Electrical Engineering.
> Currently we introduce programming with C for the 1st semester and
> then C++ for the 2nd semester. In the 3rd semester they learn Matlab
> and following on from that they can take optional units run by the CS
> department in Java, Haskell and many more. Our faculty does not
> currently offer any Python courses for students at any level in CS or
> Engineering.
> 
> Many of the students complain that the C course is too hard and my
> experience is that it doesn't equip them with the general
> understanding of programming that we really want them to get from the
> first programming course. I'm not sure about the Electrical
> Engineering students but the Engineering Mathematics students tend not
> to use C/C++ once they have covered Matlab and just use Matlab for all
> future projects, including in situations where it is highly
> inappropriate.
> 
> In our recent meeting I proposed that Python should be the first
> programming language, and others proposed that Java should be the
> second. So we're currently evaluating the option of having Python in
> the first semester followed by Java in the second. Both courses would
> have to be created from scratch meaning that we would need to draw a
> complete outline and syllabus by mid-January in order to roll this out
> for the next academic year.
> 
> I think that the benefits of this would be that using an "easy"
> language would be less distracting while we introduce the general
> concepts of programming. What we really want is for the students to
> focus on things like "why would I write a program?", "what kind of
> things can I do with a program?" and "how would I go about writing a
> program that does X?". Ideally by the end of the course we want that,
> given a description of a simple command line program that would
> perhaps calculate something or do some simple data processing, then
> the students would feel confident that they could do that. I think
> that using C distracts them from learning these more important general
> lessons as they struggle with simple things like how to print output,
> or avoid segmentation faults. Also ideally they would continue to use
> the language, where appropriate, for subsequent project work (which is
> when they would *really* learn the language).
> 
> Some of the objections to the idea that were voiced in the meeting were
> that: 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard"
> unlike C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.
> 2) Students should learn to program in a statically typed language
> because it leads to good programming discipline.
> 3) Python is too close to Matlab (which is considered essential for
> some industries our students often go in to).
> 4) It is better for students to be introduced to programming with a
> low-level language so that they gain a better understanding of how
> computers "really work".
> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
> pain makes them better programmers in the end.
> 
> I'm particularly interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> switching to teaching Python as a first programming language in a
> similar context. A written up case study that I could circulate among
> the relevant staff would be especially useful.
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Oscar

I toss out that

1. a semester is insufficient to gain a working familiarity with either 
python or java.  And neither should be introduced until a decent foundation 
has been laid.

2. If you want to start at the nuts and bolts level, (and you should) then 
nothing can compare with a semester or more in assembly language for an 
easy to learn 8/16 bit mcu like a 6809.  IMO learning the Intel assembly 
for the 8088 and its git, or even the higher level motorola stuff is 
counter productive because they get lost in the details that are really 
best handled by a compiler.  We actually have a reasonably complete, unix 
like OS for that mcu, used to be os9 30 years ago, migrated to community 
supported now and called Nitros9 as we have about doubled its speed over 
the original.  I helped in its conversion to run on the smarter 6309, and 
I've written some of its lesser used drivers, like a serial mouse.

Once they get the concept of doing operations on registers they have loaded 
with data, and then storing the result, possibly for further use in another 
block of code, C will be much easier to teach well as that background will 
give them the ability to treat C as a higher level, but still close to 
assembly language.  The student can easily envision what C is doing, 
statement by statement, which will help comprehension, a lot.

Then spend at least a semester on methods of looking at a problem, breaking 
it down into pieces to solve, then organizing the code to solve that 
problem, which if done right, should result in their having a view that 
might even be language independent.  This can't help but be good in the 
long run.  The ability to compose a block diagram with the flow, will 
result in a student whose code will be a lot closer to correct right out of 
the gate as opposed to the student and prof doing 2 weeks of back and forth 
until he, sometimes accidentally, finally gets it right.  By that time both 
are cross-eyed from looking at so much code that doesn't work well.
Here is where the truly high level language like python or java enters the 
conversation.

My $0.02, in 1934 dollars of course. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

All God's children are not beautiful.  Most of God's children are, in fact,
barely presentable.
		-- Fran Lebowitz, "Metropolitan Life"
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:39:36 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:39:36 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY5MsZJCO=s2dX0PMLBU02f5dOLcd3s4VgoWyCWn8xZa9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Gene Heskett <gheskett at wdtv.com> wrote:
> On Monday 09 December 2013 07:51:12 Oscar Benjamin did opine:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
>> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
>> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
>> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
>> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
>> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
>> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
>> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.
>>
>> The course is for ~100 1st year students with half studying
>> Engineering Mathematics and the other half Electrical Engineering.
>> Currently we introduce programming with C for the 1st semester and
>> then C++ for the 2nd semester. In the 3rd semester they learn Matlab
>> and following on from that they can take optional units run by the CS
>> department in Java, Haskell and many more. Our faculty does not
>> currently offer any Python courses for students at any level in CS or
>> Engineering.
>>
>> Many of the students complain that the C course is too hard and my
>> experience is that it doesn't equip them with the general
>> understanding of programming that we really want them to get from the
>> first programming course. I'm not sure about the Electrical
>> Engineering students but the Engineering Mathematics students tend not
>> to use C/C++ once they have covered Matlab and just use Matlab for all
>> future projects, including in situations where it is highly
>> inappropriate.
>>
>> In our recent meeting I proposed that Python should be the first
>> programming language, and others proposed that Java should be the
>> second. So we're currently evaluating the option of having Python in
>> the first semester followed by Java in the second. Both courses would
>> have to be created from scratch meaning that we would need to draw a
>> complete outline and syllabus by mid-January in order to roll this out
>> for the next academic year.
>>
>> I think that the benefits of this would be that using an "easy"
>> language would be less distracting while we introduce the general
>> concepts of programming. What we really want is for the students to
>> focus on things like "why would I write a program?", "what kind of
>> things can I do with a program?" and "how would I go about writing a
>> program that does X?". Ideally by the end of the course we want that,
>> given a description of a simple command line program that would
>> perhaps calculate something or do some simple data processing, then
>> the students would feel confident that they could do that. I think
>> that using C distracts them from learning these more important general
>> lessons as they struggle with simple things like how to print output,
>> or avoid segmentation faults. Also ideally they would continue to use
>> the language, where appropriate, for subsequent project work (which is
>> when they would *really* learn the language).
>>
>> Some of the objections to the idea that were voiced in the meeting were
>> that: 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard"
>> unlike C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.
>> 2) Students should learn to program in a statically typed language
>> because it leads to good programming discipline.
>> 3) Python is too close to Matlab (which is considered essential for
>> some industries our students often go in to).
>> 4) It is better for students to be introduced to programming with a
>> low-level language so that they gain a better understanding of how
>> computers "really work".
>> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
>> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
>> pain makes them better programmers in the end.
>>
>> I'm particularly interested to know if anyone can share experience of
>> switching to teaching Python as a first programming language in a
>> similar context. A written up case study that I could circulate among
>> the relevant staff would be especially useful.
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Oscar
>
> I toss out that
>
> 1. a semester is insufficient to gain a working familiarity with either
> python or java.  And neither should be introduced until a decent foundation
> has been laid.
>
> 2. If you want to start at the nuts and bolts level, (and you should) then
> nothing can compare with a semester or more in assembly language for an
> easy to learn 8/16 bit mcu like a 6809.  IMO learning the Intel assembly
> for the 8088 and its git, or even the higher level motorola stuff is
> counter productive because they get lost in the details that are really
> best handled by a compiler.  We actually have a reasonably complete, unix
> like OS for that mcu, used to be os9 30 years ago, migrated to community
> supported now and called Nitros9 as we have about doubled its speed over
> the original.  I helped in its conversion to run on the smarter 6309, and
> I've written some of its lesser used drivers, like a serial mouse.
>
> Once they get the concept of doing operations on registers they have loaded
> with data, and then storing the result, possibly for further use in another
> block of code, C will be much easier to teach well as that background will
> give them the ability to treat C as a higher level, but still close to
> assembly language.  The student can easily envision what C is doing,
> statement by statement, which will help comprehension, a lot.
>
> Then spend at least a semester on methods of looking at a problem, breaking
> it down into pieces to solve, then organizing the code to solve that
> problem, which if done right, should result in their having a view that
> might even be language independent.  This can't help but be good in the
> long run.  The ability to compose a block diagram with the flow, will
> result in a student whose code will be a lot closer to correct right out of
> the gate as opposed to the student and prof doing 2 weeks of back and forth
> until he, sometimes accidentally, finally gets it right.  By that time both
> are cross-eyed from looking at so much code that doesn't work well.
> Here is where the truly high level language like python or java enters the
> conversation.
>
> My $0.02, in 1934 dollars of course. ;-)

I agree with Gene on the benefit of knowing a low level language and
having experience with the hardware and top-down analysis. I went to
college in the late 70's and I find my knowledge of those things helps
me tremendously when debugging. I think college isn't as much to teach
you specific things as it is to teach you how to learn (especially in
this industry). I've encountered many kids today who come out of
school, and think java is the only language and they have no design
skills and no knowledge of how the machine actually works.


From gheskett at shentel.net  Mon Dec  9 11:10:25 2013
From: gheskett at shentel.net (Gene Heskett)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:10:25 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CACwCsY5MsZJCO=s2dX0PMLBU02f5dOLcd3s4VgoWyCWn8xZa9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <CACwCsY5MsZJCO=s2dX0PMLBU02f5dOLcd3s4VgoWyCWn8xZa9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201312091110.25470.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Monday 09 December 2013 10:46:42 Larry Martell did opine:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Gene Heskett <gheskett at wdtv.com> wrote:
> > On Monday 09 December 2013 07:51:12 Oscar Benjamin did opine:
> >> Hi all,
> >> 
> >> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
> >> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
> >> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
> >> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
> >> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as
> >> the first programming language that we use to introduce our students
> >> to programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share
> >> experience of a similar situation or can point to any case studies
> >> about this.
> >> 
> >> The course is for ~100 1st year students with half studying
> >> Engineering Mathematics and the other half Electrical Engineering.
> >> Currently we introduce programming with C for the 1st semester and
> >> then C++ for the 2nd semester. In the 3rd semester they learn Matlab
> >> and following on from that they can take optional units run by the CS
> >> department in Java, Haskell and many more. Our faculty does not
> >> currently offer any Python courses for students at any level in CS or
> >> Engineering.
> >> 
> >> Many of the students complain that the C course is too hard and my
> >> experience is that it doesn't equip them with the general
> >> understanding of programming that we really want them to get from the
> >> first programming course. I'm not sure about the Electrical
> >> Engineering students but the Engineering Mathematics students tend
> >> not to use C/C++ once they have covered Matlab and just use Matlab
> >> for all future projects, including in situations where it is highly
> >> inappropriate.
> >> 
> >> In our recent meeting I proposed that Python should be the first
> >> programming language, and others proposed that Java should be the
> >> second. So we're currently evaluating the option of having Python in
> >> the first semester followed by Java in the second. Both courses would
> >> have to be created from scratch meaning that we would need to draw a
> >> complete outline and syllabus by mid-January in order to roll this
> >> out for the next academic year.
> >> 
> >> I think that the benefits of this would be that using an "easy"
> >> language would be less distracting while we introduce the general
> >> concepts of programming. What we really want is for the students to
> >> focus on things like "why would I write a program?", "what kind of
> >> things can I do with a program?" and "how would I go about writing a
> >> program that does X?". Ideally by the end of the course we want that,
> >> given a description of a simple command line program that would
> >> perhaps calculate something or do some simple data processing, then
> >> the students would feel confident that they could do that. I think
> >> that using C distracts them from learning these more important
> >> general lessons as they struggle with simple things like how to
> >> print output, or avoid segmentation faults. Also ideally they would
> >> continue to use the language, where appropriate, for subsequent
> >> project work (which is when they would *really* learn the language).
> >> 
> >> Some of the objections to the idea that were voiced in the meeting
> >> were that: 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry
> >> standard" unlike C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for
> >> employability. 2) Students should learn to program in a statically
> >> typed language because it leads to good programming discipline.
> >> 3) Python is too close to Matlab (which is considered essential for
> >> some industries our students often go in to).
> >> 4) It is better for students to be introduced to programming with a
> >> low-level language so that they gain a better understanding of how
> >> computers "really work".
> >> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
> >> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
> >> pain makes them better programmers in the end.
> >> 
> >> I'm particularly interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> >> switching to teaching Python as a first programming language in a
> >> similar context. A written up case study that I could circulate among
> >> the relevant staff would be especially useful.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Thanks in advance,
> >> Oscar
> > 
> > I toss out that
> > 
> > 1. a semester is insufficient to gain a working familiarity with
> > either python or java.  And neither should be introduced until a
> > decent foundation has been laid.
> > 
> > 2. If you want to start at the nuts and bolts level, (and you should)
> > then nothing can compare with a semester or more in assembly language
> > for an easy to learn 8/16 bit mcu like a 6809.  IMO learning the
> > Intel assembly for the 8088 and its git, or even the higher level
> > motorola stuff is counter productive because they get lost in the
> > details that are really best handled by a compiler.  We actually have
> > a reasonably complete, unix like OS for that mcu, used to be os9 30
> > years ago, migrated to community supported now and called Nitros9 as
> > we have about doubled its speed over the original.  I helped in its
> > conversion to run on the smarter 6309, and I've written some of its
> > lesser used drivers, like a serial mouse.
> > 
> > Once they get the concept of doing operations on registers they have
> > loaded with data, and then storing the result, possibly for further
> > use in another block of code, C will be much easier to teach well as
> > that background will give them the ability to treat C as a higher
> > level, but still close to assembly language.  The student can easily
> > envision what C is doing, statement by statement, which will help
> > comprehension, a lot.
> > 
> > Then spend at least a semester on methods of looking at a problem,
> > breaking it down into pieces to solve, then organizing the code to
> > solve that problem, which if done right, should result in their
> > having a view that might even be language independent.  This can't
> > help but be good in the long run.  The ability to compose a block
> > diagram with the flow, will result in a student whose code will be a
> > lot closer to correct right out of the gate as opposed to the student
> > and prof doing 2 weeks of back and forth until he, sometimes
> > accidentally, finally gets it right.  By that time both are
> > cross-eyed from looking at so much code that doesn't work well. Here
> > is where the truly high level language like python or java enters the
> > conversation.
> > 
> > My $0.02, in 1934 dollars of course. ;-)
> 
> I agree with Gene on the benefit of knowing a low level language and
> having experience with the hardware and top-down analysis. I went to
> college in the late 70's and I find my knowledge of those things helps
> me tremendously when debugging. I think college isn't as much to teach
> you specific things as it is to teach you how to learn (especially in
> this industry). I've encountered many kids today who come out of
> school, and think java is the only language and they have no design
> skills and no knowledge of how the machine actually works.

Thanks for the flowers Larry. You just said what I was talking all around,  
A college education shouldn't teach you specifics about a narrow subject, 
but should teach you _how_ to learn because it truly is a never ending 
process that for me, continues to this day as I work on my 80th year here.
And you would be amazed at the college diploma possessing people who think 
they can quit learning when they get the diploma and refuse to learn 
anything new after that, saying "my hands don't fit the tools".

And while you went to college 40+ years ago to learn that, I learned that 
at the School of Hard Knocks aka the working world in the late 40's on.  
FWIW, I actually have a diploma from there, got it about 20 years ago.  It 
is part of Alderson-Broddus University & has been for 50+ years.  Along 
with a G.E.D. about that same age since I quit school in 1948 or so to go 
out and make a living fixing those then brand new things called tv's.  I 
think I did well at the electronics field in general.  Getting a raise you 
didn't ask for many times was the icing on the cake that said I was doing 
it right, and I was doing it right because I understood the physics that 
makes it all work, tube type or solid state.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled bashing of new bees. ;-)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

BOFH excuse #24:

network packets travelling uphill (use a carrier pigeon)
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 10 16:53:36 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:53:36 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <201312091110.25470.gheskett@wdtv.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <CACwCsY5MsZJCO=s2dX0PMLBU02f5dOLcd3s4VgoWyCWn8xZa9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312091110.25470.gheskett@wdtv.com>
Message-ID: <52A78D60.2020603@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/09/2013 08:10 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 09 December 2013 10:46:42 Larry Martell did opine:
>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> On Monday 09 December 2013 07:51:12 Oscar Benjamin did opine:

[weapon of mass snippage]

Okay, folks, it's really okay to snip stuff!  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 10 17:02:23 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:02:23 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
Message-ID: <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/09/2013 05:24 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>
> I toss out that
>
> 1. a semester is insufficient to gain a working familiarity with either
> python or java.

I don't know about java, but it would certainly be enough to get a good start in Python.


> 2. If you want to start at the nuts and bolts level, (and you should)

Doesn't sound like they do, as that's causing plenty of problems.  In today's world that level of knowledge isn't always 
necessary, especially if your degree is not in CS.  One of the (many) nice things about Python is one doesn't need to 
know that stuff to Get Things Done.

--
~Ethan~


From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 03:34:10 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 00:34:10 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> Doesn't sound like they do, as that's causing plenty of problems.  In
> today's world that level of knowledge isn't always necessary, especially if
> your degree is not in CS.  One of the (many) nice things about Python is one
> doesn't need to know that stuff to Get Things Done.

You don't need to know how to use the brakes to drive to Wal-Mart,
either. "Get Things Done" is not the one and only goal. It ignores
productivity, correctness, ethics... It isn't a bad thing to learn
things that are unnecessary to get the bare minimum accomplished.

-- Devin


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 03:43:52 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:43:52 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
<jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> Doesn't sound like they do, as that's causing plenty of problems.  In
>> today's world that level of knowledge isn't always necessary, especially if
>> your degree is not in CS.  One of the (many) nice things about Python is one
>> doesn't need to know that stuff to Get Things Done.
>
> You don't need to know how to use the brakes to drive to Wal-Mart,
> either. "Get Things Done" is not the one and only goal. It ignores
> productivity, correctness, ethics... It isn't a bad thing to learn
> things that are unnecessary to get the bare minimum accomplished.

When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
start. Sometimes that means starting the story in the middle of the
action, and filling in the important-but-less-exciting details later,
when they mean something. [1] Teaching a skill often hits the same
sorts of issues. Rather than explain "This is how to manipulate
registers in a CPU", explain "This is how to print Hello World to the
console" and worry about what exactly the console is (and how
redirection affects it) later. My tutorial on assembly language
programming did the same, though it used a one-character-output
operation so it printed a single asterisk to standard out. (Manually
setting CPU register AX to 0200 and DX to 002A, placing an INT 21
command in memory, and single-stepping it.) Learning how all that
functions - or even what the INT opcode means - came later. Start with
something visible and engaging.

After that, learn/teach as much background as is of interest, and
improve skills. But start with something that gets something done.

[1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InMediasRes

ChrisA


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 06:46:50 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:46:50 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxRLzn-bFE8VRQb0bOWxwTkqo+DdQ-rYm=c4tvzgCGJ86Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2013 08:43, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
> <jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
> start. Sometimes that means starting the story in the middle of the
> action, and filling in the important-but-less-exciting details later,
> when they mean something. [1] Teaching a skill often hits the same
> sorts of issues. Rather than explain "This is how to manipulate
> registers in a CPU", explain "This is how to print Hello World to the
> console" and worry about what exactly the console is (and how
> redirection affects it) later. My tutorial on assembly language
> programming did the same, though it used a one-character-output
> operation so it printed a single asterisk to standard out. (Manually
> setting CPU register AX to 0200 and DX to 002A, placing an INT 21
> command in memory, and single-stepping it.) Learning how all that
> functions - or even what the INT opcode means - came later. Start with
> something visible and engaging.
>
> After that, learn/teach as much background as is of interest, and
> improve skills. But start with something that gets something done.

I certainly agree with this for our students. Explicit computing
courses make up about 30 credits (~16%) of the whole degree program
for the Engineering Mathematics students (if they don't take
additional optional units). They are however many units that
implicitly require computing skills, so we really need them to be able
to be productive quickly. Some of them will focus on programming and
get really good at it. Some do go on to become programmers but most do
not.

The Electrical Engineering students will subsequently do low-level
programming with registers etc. but at the earliest stage we just want
them to think about how algorithms and programs work before going into
all the hardware specific details.

While reading around this subject I found this interesting (although
verbose) speech from Dijkstra advocating the opposite point of view:
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html

This definitely wouldn't work for my students but a friend of mine
studied CS (at Warwick?) and his course worked as Dijkstra describes.
In the first year they don't touch a real programming language or
write any actual programs. They take exams in pseudocode and formal
proofs of correctness. Then after a year of studying algorithms,
linguistics, semantics, proof, mathematics and so on they write their
first hello world program in a real programming language. I don't
really know whether he's any good at programming but he's certainly a
good mathematician.


Oscar


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:35:49 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:35:49 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxRLzn-bFE8VRQb0bOWxwTkqo+DdQ-rYm=c4tvzgCGJ86Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHVvXxRLzn-bFE8VRQb0bOWxwTkqo+DdQ-rYm=c4tvzgCGJ86Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr8qFczYjgcq7ua42bmaAd4e3_b812YKTgeFdR8jr4n1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:46 PM, Oscar Benjamin
<oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com> wrote:
> This definitely wouldn't work for my students but a friend of mine
> studied CS (at Warwick?) and his course worked as Dijkstra describes.
> In the first year they don't touch a real programming language or
> write any actual programs. They take exams in pseudocode and formal
> proofs of correctness. Then after a year of studying algorithms,
> linguistics, semantics, proof, mathematics and so on they write their
> first hello world program in a real programming language. I don't
> really know whether he's any good at programming but he's certainly a
> good mathematician.

Yeah, that's how that sounds. If programming is, to your students, a
tool for mathematical analysis (if code is a kind of super-algebra),
then it's right to take eams in pseudocode and study algorithms before
writing hello world. But if programming is a means of gaining command
of a computer, it's far better to see some results of that. Some
people like the idea of creating games (usually because they've played
so many), so there are courses around that take you from knowing
nothing about code to creating your first game (often in one of those
systems that lets you build an application without writing code,
though, in which case it's not really teaching programming at all).
Personally, I'd rather focus on something that's universal[1] (the
console and "Hello, world!"), but I do see the appeal of "And by the
end of the course, you'll have created a playable game!".

Early in my computing days, I met REXX, and a program called REXXTry.
It provided a basic Read/Eval/Print loop, though the Print part wasn't
very sophisticated (though since REXX didn't have much in the way of
complex types, all that meant was that the display of long strings was
a bit ugly). I ended up creating an Extended REXXTry, partly by adding
a sophisticated input routine courtesy of REXXTT, and then by adding a
pile of custom functions - with the goal of making it the ultimate in
algebraic handlers. It was, in fact, quite a reasonable tool for
playing around with maths; I could sketch a geometric problem on
paper, figure out what I knew and what I needed to know, key stuff
into EREXXTry, and get a result back. Python could do exactly the
same, only way way better (already has support for fractions and
complex numbers, which REXX doesn't), and that would make a fine
introduction to programming... for someone with a background in
algebra.

Different styles for different origins.

ChrisA

[1] Or nearly so. Ironically, many of the systems that don't have a
console available are called "consoles". <voice imitate="Jubal
Early">Does that seem right to you?</voice>


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 09:44:49 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 06:44:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 5:16:50 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> The Electrical Engineering students will subsequently do low-level
> programming with registers etc. but at the earliest stage we just want
> them to think about how algorithms and programs work before going into
> all the hardware specific details.

> While reading around this subject I found this interesting (although
> verbose) speech from Dijkstra advocating the opposite point of view:
> http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1036.html

> This definitely wouldn't work for my students but a friend of mine
> studied CS (at Warwick?) and his course worked as Dijkstra describes.
> In the first year they don't touch a real programming language or
> write any actual programs. They take exams in pseudocode and formal
> proofs of correctness. Then after a year of studying algorithms,
> linguistics, semantics, proof, mathematics and so on they write their
> first hello world program in a real programming language. I don't
> really know whether he's any good at programming but he's certainly a
> good mathematician.

A government form -- say for filing income tax -- and poetry may both
be in English but one doesn't read them with the same attitude!

Dijkstra talks in so much hyperbole that one does not take him
literally.  In particular if you want to take him seriously, you must
not take him literally.  [I remember reading somewhere that in CS
arrogance is measured in nano-dijkstras]

I believe there is a truth in the line that Chris and Gene take of
getting students' hands dirty early.
Equally there is truth in Dijkstra's line that students need the habit
of thinking and reflecting before diving in.

Now if you believe that one is clearly more important than the other,
your way is clear.

However what if you want to balance both? Its a challenge...

It is this need to balance that makes functional programming attractive:

- implemented like any other programming language
- but also mathematically rigorous

No python is not strictly a functional language but it can be bent to seem
that way more than C/C++/Java/what-have-you


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 10:24:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 02:24:30 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpz5-duhT7raFKf_j1ZajSdxNR3gHLxsNKupOFgVZfFmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:44 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is this need to balance that makes functional programming attractive:
>
> - implemented like any other programming language
> - but also mathematically rigorous

Attractive *to the mathematician*. A more imperative style makes sense
to someone who's grown up with... well, parents...

clean_room()
eat_dinner()

One won't start till the other finishes.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 10:41:32 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:41:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:54:30 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:44 AM, rusi wrote:
> > It is this need to balance that makes functional programming attractive:
> > - implemented like any other programming language
> > - but also mathematically rigorous

> Attractive *to the mathematician*. A more imperative style makes sense
> to someone who's grown up with... well, parents...

> clean_room()
> eat_dinner()

> One won't start till the other finishes.

Yes its always like that:
When you have to figure 2 (or 10) line programs its a no-brainer that
the imperative style just works.

When the ten becomes ten-thousand, written by a nut who's left you with
code whose semantics is dependent on weird dependencies and combinatorial
paths through the code you start wishing that

- your only dependencies were data dependencies
- "Explicit is better than implicit" dinned into the nut's head

which BTW are the basic tenets of FP.

We have functions in C, in Scheme and in Haskell. The difference is that

- in C its impractical and unrealistic to have all functions as
  (mathematical) functions of the arguments
- in Scheme its natural but not enforced
- in Haskell its enforced

The nice thing about python is that one can (kindof) teach it in the
Scheme-like way before showing the C-like side.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 10:53:01 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:53:01 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8a1o3$uii$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 15:41, rusi wrote:
>
> When the ten becomes ten-thousand, written by a nut who's left you with
> code whose semantics is dependent on weird dependencies and combinatorial
> paths through the code you start wishing that
>

... he'd not been a Led Zeppelin fan, whereby every 
variable/module/function name was based on a song title/album 
name/lyric.  Thankfully not on my project, it was a mate's.  Code ended 
up in small, round filing cabinet.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:04:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:04:11 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:41 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes its always like that:
> When you have to figure 2 (or 10) line programs its a no-brainer that
> the imperative style just works.
>
> When the ten becomes ten-thousand, written by a nut who's left you with
> code whose semantics is dependent on weird dependencies and combinatorial
> paths through the code you start wishing that
>
> - your only dependencies were data dependencies
> - "Explicit is better than implicit" dinned into the nut's head
>
> which BTW are the basic tenets of FP.

And since teaching is seldom done with 10KLOC codebases, functional
style can be left till later. I strongly believe that a career
programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
most of them can wait. Start with something easy, then pick up
something harder later.

ESR in "How to become a hacker" [1] suggests learning "Python, C/C++,
Java, Perl, and LISP" [2], and do take note of his reasons _why_. I'm
not sure that Perl is so important any more (though a Unix sysadmin
should probably have at least a working knowledge of it, given the
likelihood of tripping over it at some point), and for LISP you might
substitute some other functional language, but broadly, those five
recommendations haven't changed in years and years.

Knowing multiple styles lets you learn from all of them. Pure
functional programming means the result of any function can be
determined entirely from its arguments; that doesn't fit into
everything, but it sure does make your code easier to understand when
you (mostly) stick to it. (For instance, the current logging level
might change whether a particular line does something or does nothing,
but it still fundamentally has the same meaning, and it won't change
state magically anywhere else.) And there's a lot of "similarity of
thinking" between a well-written program in one style and a
well-written program in another style, regardless of which two styles
they are.

ChrisA

[1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
[2] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html#skills1


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 11:18:08 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:18:08 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8a375$hd1$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 16:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I strongly believe that a career
> programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
> most of them can wait.

I chuckle every time I read this one.  Five years per language, ten 
languages, that's 50 years I think.  Or do I rewrite my diary for next 
week, so I learn Smalltalk Monday morning, Ruby Monday afternoon, Julia 
Tuesday morning ...

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:25:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:25:57 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8a375$hd1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8a375$hd1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqz1nVHWM5g2g8ecC9_SKJTO6f34cqoU-SyH2=mMrSR5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:18 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 11/12/2013 16:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> I strongly believe that a career
>> programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
>> most of them can wait.
>
>
> I chuckle every time I read this one.  Five years per language, ten
> languages, that's 50 years I think.  Or do I rewrite my diary for next week,
> so I learn Smalltalk Monday morning, Ruby Monday afternoon, Julia Tuesday
> morning ...

Well, I went exploring the Wikipedia list of languages [1] one day,
and found I had at least broad familiarity with about one in five. I'd
like to get that up to one in four, if only because four's a power of
two.

More seriously: Once you've learned five of very different styles, it
won't take you five years to learn a sixth language. I picked up Pike
in about a weekend by realizing that it was "Python semantics meets C
syntax", and then went on to spend the next few years getting to know
its own idioms. I'd say anyone who knows a dozen languages should be
able to pick up any non-esoteric language in a weekend, at least to a
level of broad familiarity of being able to read and comprehend code
and make moderate changes to it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages

ChrisA


From timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 15:13:05 2013
From: timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com (Tim Delaney)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:13:05 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqz1nVHWM5g2g8ecC9_SKJTO6f34cqoU-SyH2=mMrSR5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8a375$hd1$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqz1nVHWM5g2g8ecC9_SKJTO6f34cqoU-SyH2=mMrSR5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN8CLgn6i6057sp9MJtrGfdEgubRmC9WM5neO6nvWRO6T9DwVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2013 03:25, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:18 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > On 11/12/2013 16:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>
> >> I strongly believe that a career
> >> programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
> >> most of them can wait.
> >
> >
> > I chuckle every time I read this one.  Five years per language, ten
> > languages, that's 50 years I think.  Or do I rewrite my diary for next
> week,
> > so I learn Smalltalk Monday morning, Ruby Monday afternoon, Julia Tuesday
> > morning ...
>
> Well, I went exploring the Wikipedia list of languages [1] one day,
> and found I had at least broad familiarity with about one in five. I'd
> like to get that up to one in four, if only because four's a power of
> two.
>
> More seriously: Once you've learned five of very different styles, it
> won't take you five years to learn a sixth language. I picked up Pike
> in about a weekend by realizing that it was "Python semantics meets C
> syntax", and then went on to spend the next few years getting to know
> its own idioms. I'd say anyone who knows a dozen languages should be
> able to pick up any non-esoteric language in a weekend, at least to a
> level of broad familiarity of being able to read and comprehend code
> and make moderate changes to it.
>

Absolutely. 10 years ago I was saying I'd forgotten at least 20 languages,
and there have been many more since.

Once you know enough programming languages you (and by "you" I mean "me")
get to the point where if you don't know a specific language you can pick
up enough to be useful in a day or two, reasonably proficient in a week,
and have a fairly high level of mastery by the time you've finished
whatever project you picked it up for. And then you don't use it for a
while, forget it to make room for something else, and pick it up again when
you need it (much faster this time).

Except Prolog. Never could get my head around it - I should go back and
have another try one of these days.

Some languages stick with you (e.g. Python) and I don't tend to learn
languages that are too similar to what I already know unless it's for a
specific project. So I've never learned Ruby ... but I have had to modify a
few Ruby scripts along the way, and been able to achieve what I wanted the
same day.

TimD elaney
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From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 20:50:53 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:50:53 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3913.1386778687.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-53A431.20505311122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3913.1386778687.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 11/12/2013 16:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > I strongly believe that a career
> > programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
> > most of them can wait.
> 
> I chuckle every time I read this one.  Five years per language, ten 
> languages, that's 50 years I think.  Or do I rewrite my diary for next 
> week, so I learn Smalltalk Monday morning, Ruby Monday afternoon, Julia 
> Tuesday morning ...

Not counting little side explorations, I have used in anger (and in 
vaguely chronological order):

Basic
Fortran
C
Various assemblers (pdp-10, pdp-11, IBM-1130, M6800)
Common Lisp
Postscript
Python
TCL
Perl
Java
C++
Javascript


From rhodri at wildebst.org.uk  Thu Dec 12 18:50:45 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.org.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:50:45 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3887.1386762439.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05fc5a48-576d-4eb9-a714-96df39f0ef1f@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3902.1386775479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ce3f38a2-a726-4d71-b538-3606a4d1ee54@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrcmgi=tE-z9O9N4TwOiy9zDrLpK43XLdGq-LoWfMa7WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3913.1386778687.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <op.w7z66ve65079vu@gnudebeest>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:18:08 -0000, Mark Lawrence  
<breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 11/12/2013 16:04, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> I strongly believe that a career
>> programmer should learn as many languages and styles as possible, but
>> most of them can wait.
>
> I chuckle every time I read this one.  Five years per language, ten  
> languages, that's 50 years I think.  Or do I rewrite my diary for next  
> week, so I learn Smalltalk Monday morning, Ruby Monday afternoon, Julia  
> Tuesday morning ...

Welcome to Computer Science lectures :-)

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From bgailer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:01:42 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:01:42 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A88C66.8050103@gmail.com>

On 12/11/2013 3:43 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
> start...explain "This is how to print Hello World to the
> console" and worry about what exactly the console is (and how
> redirection affects it)
Highly agree. I was once given FORTRAN course materials and an 
assignment to teach this course. The first morning was spent on how to 
construct expressions! No context as to what a program was or what it 
might do or how to run it.

As soon as that class was over I rewrote the materials so the first 
morning was how to write and run(batch job submission) a program that 
read a record, did a simple  calculation and wrote the results.

I certainly felt better about teaching this way.

Asides:

One student (PhD in Physics) looked at X = X + 1 and said "no it doesn't".

Another wrote his first program. I took one look at it and saw the 
mistakes. I explained how to walk thru the program step by step. He 
exclaimed "In that much detail?".


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 11:11:59 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:11:59 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A88C66.8050103@gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A88C66.8050103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8a2rl$d0m$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 16:01, bob gailer wrote:
>
> One student (PhD in Physics) looked at X = X + 1 and said "no it doesn't".
>

Someone I worked with used x := x - x - x to invert a number.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:14:12 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:14:12 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A88C66.8050103@gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A88C66.8050103@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmobm9VrNwF-93iSk-9hNYGYAYDqPQh-FLAtKfRD_Cewkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:01 AM, bob gailer <bgailer at gmail.com> wrote:
> One student (PhD in Physics) looked at X = X + 1 and said "no it doesn't".

Yeah, which is why some languages (I first met it with Pascal) spell
that as "X *becomes* X + 1"... but regardless of what you call it,
there's a fundamental difference between algebra (where every line is
a statement of truth) and imperative programming (which may change
state as time progresses). What's called a "variable" in programming
really can vary; in maths, it's really just an "unknown". This is a
difference that, one way or another, just has to be taught.

> Another wrote his first program. I took one look at it and saw the mistakes.
> I explained how to walk thru the program step by step. He exclaimed "In that
> much detail?".

You mean a dry run [1]? Yes, can be tedious. Can also be very VERY
valuable, especially if done verbally to another programmer, as a
means of spotting differences between what the programmer thinks
something does and what the language thinks it does.

x = a * b + c

"Set x to a times the sum of b and c."

ChrisA

[1] http://foldoc.org/dry+run


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:27:23 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:27:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 9:31:42 PM UTC+5:30, bob gailer wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 3:43 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
> > start...explain "This is how to print Hello World to the
> > console" and worry about what exactly the console is (and how
> > redirection affects it)
> Highly agree. I was once given FORTRAN course materials and an 
> assignment to teach this course. The first morning was spent on how to 
> construct expressions! No context as to what a program was or what it 
> might do or how to run it.

> As soon as that class was over I rewrote the materials so the first 
> morning was how to write and run(batch job submission) a program that 
> read a record, did a simple  calculation and wrote the results.

Kernighan and Ritchie set an important "first" in our field by making
"Hello World" their first program.

People tend to under-estimate the importance of this:
Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.

And its quite a pleasurable sense of achievement when it finally holds 
together -- something which is sorely missing in the Dijkstra approach.

However when we have an REPL language like python, one has the choice
of teaching the hello-world program as:

print ("Hello World")

or just

"Hello World"

The second needs one more assumption than the first, viz that we are in the
REPL, however on the whole it creates better habits in the kids.

[BTW: From the theoretical POV, imperative programming is 'unclean' because
of assignment statements.  From the practical POV of a teacher, the 
imperativeness of print is a bigger nuisance in students' thinking patterns
]

> I certainly felt better about teaching this way.

> Asides:

> One student (PhD in Physics) looked at X = X + 1 and said "no it doesn't".

Yes thats one issue in most modern imperative languages that the older generation
(Pascal-family) did not have, viz that assignment looks like equality.

> Another wrote his first program. I took one look at it and saw the 
> mistakes. I explained how to walk thru the program step by step. He 
> exclaimed "In that much detail?".



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 11:36:04 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 16:36:04 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a89474$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:27:23 -0800, rusi wrote:

> [BTW: From the theoretical POV, imperative programming is 'unclean'
> because of assignment statements.  From the practical POV of a teacher,
> the imperativeness of print is a bigger nuisance in students' thinking
> patterns ]

+1 on this

Trying to teach newbies to use return rather than print in their 
functions is one of the more difficult parts of teaching beginners.


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 11:45:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 03:45:51 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrGcje0p9pbgB+_sRpGBZux32Hu5Tu=haxDmG+Ejwz3eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:27 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> However when we have an REPL language like python, one has the choice
> of teaching the hello-world program as:
>
> print ("Hello World")
>
> or just
>
> "Hello World"
>
> The second needs one more assumption than the first, viz that we are in the
> REPL, however on the whole it creates better habits in the kids.

How is the bare string creating better habits? The only time I've ever
been happy with bare strings having functionality[1] is in shell-like
languages (including REXX; the one time I built a REXX system in which
bare strings weren't executed as commands was a MUD, where command
handlers could use bare strings to send lines of text to the client,
and I wasn't happy with that - an explicit function would have been
better). I'd much rather teach a function that produces clean output
than depend on the REPL for Hello World. Now, depending on the REPL
for *expressions* is quite another thing.

>>> 1+2
3

That makes perfect sense! But it's using Python as a calculator, not
as a programming language. Python blurs the line a bit, but for
teaching programming, I'd use programming style even at the REPL:

>>> print("Hello, world!")
Hello, world!

ChrisA

[1] I don't have anything to footnote here, I just felt like having one.


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 20:42:32 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:42:32 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>

In article <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kernighan and Ritchie set an important "first" in our field by making
> "Hello World" their first program.

Yup.

> People tend to under-estimate the importance of this:
> Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
> starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.

At the time that they wrote it, very few people who used computers ever 
got anywhere near the power switch :-) But, the point is valid.  To get 
"Hello, world" to print, you've got to figure out a lot of stuff.  
Predating the whole agile movement by two decades, it is the 
quintessential MVP.  It compiles and runs.  The rest is just adding 
features and fixing bugs.


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 21:07:31 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:07:31 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c at googlegroups.com>,
>  rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kernighan and Ritchie set an important "first" in our field by making
>> "Hello World" their first program.
>
> Yup.
>
>> People tend to under-estimate the importance of this:
>> Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
>> starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.
>
> At the time that they wrote it, very few people who used computers ever
> got anywhere near the power switch :-)

Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot
when you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap
program from the front panel switches. (And no, this is not a takeoff
of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.)


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Dec 11 21:21:38 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:21:38 +1100
Subject: The increasing disempowerment of the computer user (was:
 Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language)
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>

Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
> >> starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.
> >
> > At the time that [Kerningham & Ritchie] wrote [the C programming
> > language], very few people who used computers ever got anywhere near
> > the power switch :-)
>
> Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot
> when you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap
> program from the front panel switches.

That's done by the *operator*, not the user. Most people who *used*
those computers worked at terminals at a distance, and usually separated
by a locked door, from the computer's power switch.

> (And no, this is not a takeoff of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.)

The pendulum swings back and forth. Computer users are once again
blithely handing all their agency and choice back to centralised
operators (so-called ?could computing?) who follow an agenda not of
those users's choosing.

Just as in the bad old days of 1960s centralised computing, complete
with computer operators who dismiss the needs of their users. And who
hold unquestionable authority to dictate how the computers may be used,
regardless what the users want to do. Only, now we get worldwide
unaccountable surveillance as part of the deal.

But you tell the users of today about that, and they don't believe you.

-- 
 \         ?If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all |
  `\    others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking |
_o__)                          power called an idea? ?Thomas Jefferson |
Ben Finney



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 21:35:19 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 02:35:19 +0000
Subject: The increasing disempowerment of the computer user
In-Reply-To: <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <l8b7d7$bmq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 02:21, Ben Finney wrote:

> Only, now we get worldwide unaccountable surveillance as part of the deal.
>

Whereas the 1920 UK Official Secrets Act required all international 
cable companies operating on British terrority to submit copies of all 
their traffic (both dispatched and received) within ten days of 
transmission.  Now there's accountability for you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Dec 11 21:35:37 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:35:37 +1100
Subject: The increasing disempowerment of the computer user
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <7w7gbalrt2.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > > rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
> > >> starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.
> > >
> > > At the time that [Kerningham & Ritchie] wrote [the C programming
> > > language], very few people who used computers ever got anywhere near
> > > the power switch :-)
> >
> > Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot
> > when you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap
> > program from the front panel switches.
>
> That's done by the *operator*, not the user. Most people who *used*
> those computers worked at terminals at a distance, and usually separated
> by a locked door, from the computer's power switch.
>
> > (And no, this is not a takeoff of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.)
>
> The pendulum swings back and forth. Computer users are once again
> blithely handing all their agency and choice back to centralised
> operators (so-called ?could computing?) who follow an agenda not of
> those users's choosing.

Hmm, interesting Freudian slip there. I meant ?cloud computing?, of
course. That's where the computer owner pretends their service is always
available and easy to access, while having terms of service that give
them unilateral power to kick you off with no warning, no explanation,
no accountability, and no recourse.

-- 
 \         ?All television is educational television. The question is: |
  `\                           what is it teaching?? ?Nicholas Johnson |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 05:59:58 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 10:59:58 GMT
Subject: The increasing disempowerment of the computer user
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.3955.1386815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a9972d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:35:37 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> Hmm, interesting Freudian slip there. I meant ?cloud computing?, of
> course. That's where the computer owner pretends their service is always
> available and easy to access, while having terms of service that give
> them unilateral power to kick you off with no warning, no explanation,
> no accountability, and no recourse.

Now Ben, you know that's not true. Everybody has the only recourse that 
matters: buy the company and make them do what you want them to do. How 
hard could that possibly be?



-- 
Steven


From dwightdhutto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 00:44:53 2013
From: dwightdhutto at gmail.com (David Hutto)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 00:44:53 -0500
Subject: The increasing disempowerment of the computer user
In-Reply-To: <52a9972d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wbo0mlsgd.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.3955.1386815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9972d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vVgJW=hu55EzXYcvGc+GAeiTpwscZaz2E0hW6eW0BZaO3CKw@mail.gmail.com>

Three word response...Conglomerate business intelligence.


On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:35:37 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>
> > Hmm, interesting Freudian slip there. I meant ?cloud computing?, of
> > course. That's where the computer owner pretends their service is always
> > available and easy to access, while having terms of service that give
> > them unilateral power to kick you off with no warning, no explanation,
> > no accountability, and no recourse.
>
> Now Ben, you know that's not true. Everybody has the only recourse that
> matters: buy the company and make them do what you want them to do. How
> hard could that possibly be?
>
>
>
> --
> Steven
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Best Regards,
David Hutto
*CEO:* *http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com <http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com>*
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From bgailer at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 11:51:28 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:51:28 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A9E990.9070002@gmail.com>

On 12/11/2013 9:07 PM, Larry Martell wrote:

> Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot 
> when you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap 
> program from the front panel switches.
PDP8? RIM loader, BIN loader?



From larry.martell at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:18:22 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:18:22 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A9E990.9070002@gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A9E990.9070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6-gR7K9_kYmM6YK7uM-Ja74hK4P7xxtFKUtsWMZBmsyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:51 AM, bob gailer <bgailer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 9:07 PM, Larry Martell wrote:
>
>> Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot when
>> you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap program from the
>> front panel switches.
>
> PDP8? RIM loader, BIN loader?

Data General Nova 3


From fpm at u.washington.edu  Fri Dec 13 11:21:16 2013
From: fpm at u.washington.edu (Frank Miles)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:21:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY6oiQhN=Bm2zfgO8R2Qz47djA=6A31wJxX_LNP4hVd7FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A9E990.9070002@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4025.1386883110.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fc5s$i3n$1@dont-email.me>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:18:22 -0500, Larry Martell wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:51 AM, bob gailer <bgailer at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/11/2013 9:07 PM, Larry Martell wrote:
>>
>>> Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot when
>>> you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap program from the
>>> front panel switches.
>>
>> PDP8? RIM loader, BIN loader?
> 
> Data General Nova 3

IIRC - wasn't that a machine that didn't even have 'subtract' - you had
to complement and add (2 steps) ?


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 21:31:51 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:31:51 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.3950.1386814058.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-DB0F64.21315111122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3950.1386814058.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c at googlegroups.com>,
> >  rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Kernighan and Ritchie set an important "first" in our field by making
> >> "Hello World" their first program.
> >
> > Yup.
> >
> >> People tend to under-estimate the importance of this:
> >> Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
> >> starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.
> >
> > At the time that they wrote it, very few people who used computers ever
> > got anywhere near the power switch :-)
> 
> Nope. Long before that I was working on computers that didn't boot
> when you powered them up, You had to manually key in a bootstrap
> program from the front panel switches.

Or put a boot card in the reader and hit the IPL button :-)


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 22:52:02 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <f9c5c5e5-c299-41ed-89c3-8bb79171f638@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:12:32 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  rusi  wrote:

> > Kernighan and Ritchie set an important "first" in our field by making
> > "Hello World" their first program.

> Yup.

> > People tend to under-estimate the importance of this:
> > Many assumptions need to be verified/truthified/dovetailed
> > starting from switching on the machine onwards for this to work.

> At the time that they wrote it, very few people who used computers ever 
> got anywhere near the power switch :-) But, the point is valid.  To get 
> "Hello, world" to print, you've got to figure out a lot of stuff.  
> Predating the whole agile movement by two decades, it is the 
> quintessential MVP.  It compiles and runs.  The rest is just adding 
> features and fixing bugs.

Which comes back full-circle to where we started: if

main() { printf("Hello World\n"); }

is the foundation on which other programs are built, then later excising
the print(f) is a significant headache -- at least for teachers as Steven
also seems to have found.

If instead the print was presented more as a 'debug' -- when something
goes wrong stick a probe in there and figure the problem -- then
leaving it there would be as unacceptable as a car mechanic giving you
your keys with the hood open and parts lying around.

Anecdote about the great mathematician Gauss: He was asked why
his writings were so devoid of motivations/explanations. He answered:
Do you leave the scaffolding after the building is built?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 23:20:47 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:20:47 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <f9c5c5e5-c299-41ed-89c3-8bb79171f638@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpQ9bFP66j3p-PDb2Mp88GKWKktrcFRCWQtdo6fb8LHmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3908.1386777719.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a34ada67-aa04-4f4d-b26d-e941cee03c4c@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7CFB3C.20423211122013@news.panix.com>
 <f9c5c5e5-c299-41ed-89c3-8bb79171f638@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqSaC=3K9PXY2rXu3J9y6YXnNiq1RGacme+juhUUMwCpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:52 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> Which comes back full-circle to where we started: if
>
> main() { printf("Hello World\n"); }
>
> is the foundation on which other programs are built, then later excising
> the print(f) is a significant headache -- at least for teachers as Steven
> also seems to have found.
>
> If instead the print was presented more as a 'debug' -- when something
> goes wrong stick a probe in there and figure the problem -- then
> leaving it there would be as unacceptable as a car mechanic giving you
> your keys with the hood open and parts lying around.

Console output isn't just a debug feature, though - and if you're
using it as such, you possibly should be using the logging module
instead. It's the most fundamental form of output. It plays nicely
with shell redirection and long pipelines, which means it
automatically lets you work with something larger than memory or even
disk. Imagine starting a pipeline with a decompression step (eg gzip
-d), and ending it with a tight filter (eg grep) - everything in
between could manipulate any amount of data at all, without caring
about storage space. Console output works in the REPL, works in the
default interpreter (other than pythonw.exe which suppresses it),
works across SSH... if your most normal form of output is a GUI,
that's not always true. Console output works without requiring any
other program, too, unlike (for instance) a CGI script, which needs a
web browser to interpret its output. There's a reason many languages
bless it with a keyword.

ChrisA


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 04:39:15 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 01:39:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>

A few practical considerations, far away from theoretical
aspects. Mainly for non ascii, understand non native English
speakers.

Python is an "ascii oriented product".

Platform. On Windows, the solely version which works
harmoniously with the system is Py 2.7 in a byte string
mode (ie non unicode).

Unicode. Sorry, but Python just becomes a no-go.

The great strength is(are) the Python interactive
interpreter(s). It makes learning this language a game.

jmf
(Not teaching computer stuff, but regulary confrontated
with students and/or potential users).



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 05:05:13 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:05:13 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l89dco$3qn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 09:39, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> A few practical considerations, far away from theoretical
> aspects. Mainly for non ascii, understand non native English
> speakers.
>
> Python is an "ascii oriented product".

Sheer unadulterated rubbish.

>
> Platform. On Windows, the solely version which works
> harmoniously with the system is Py 2.7 in a byte string
> mode (ie non unicode).

Fixed in Python 3, especially with the superb work done on PEP 393 and 
the FSR.

>
> Unicode. Sorry, but Python just becomes a no-go.

Yawn.

>
> The great strength is(are) the Python interactive
> interpreter(s). It makes learning this language a game.
>

Blimey, got something correct, miracles do happen.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 05:45:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:45:43 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr7tgPt2v-g4J+OGijgxVzzekTSO8M+SA2XS9b7-jvv2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
> start.

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:39 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> A few practical considerations, far away from theoretical
> aspects. Mainly for non ascii, understand non native English
> speakers.

And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
Knight Templar villain!

ChrisA


From square.steve at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 06:33:49 2013
From: square.steve at gmail.com (Steve Simmons)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:33:49 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr7tgPt2v-g4J+OGijgxVzzekTSO8M+SA2XS9b7-jvv2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmr7tgPt2v-g4J+OGijgxVzzekTSO8M+SA2XS9b7-jvv2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A84D9D.9030608@gmail.com>


On 11/12/2013 11:45, Chris Angelico wrote:
> And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
> introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
> role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
> Knight Templar villain!
>
> ChrisA

Oi! You!!

I'll have you know I'm a bona fide Knight of the Temple and we're not 
(all) villains!
If I catch you calling us villains again, I'll slide up behind you in 
the mud and dig you
with my ceremonial sword!  ;-)

SteveS


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:02:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:02:22 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A84D9D.9030608@gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmr7tgPt2v-g4J+OGijgxVzzekTSO8M+SA2XS9b7-jvv2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A84D9D.9030608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp=LsbM7OFaiX=n1e1i3juqwhKYw8q4XUgOZdZa+AHhTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Steve Simmons <square.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/12/2013 11:45, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
>> introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
>> role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
>> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
>> Knight Templar villain!
>>
>> ChrisA
>
>
> Oi! You!!
>
> I'll have you know I'm a bona fide Knight of the Temple and we're not (all)
> villains!
> If I catch you calling us villains again, I'll slide up behind you in the
> mud and dig you
> with my ceremonial sword!  ;-)

Mister Simmons, Mister Simmons! We are not for one moment doubting
your sincerity. It's just your intelligence that's in question. [1]

[1] http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_show.asp?title=s06e19_the_jet_propelled_guided_naafi

ChrisA
Attempting to atone for pointing people to TVTropes... or maybe to be
hung for a sheep rather than a lamb....


From square.steve at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:30:45 2013
From: square.steve at gmail.com (Steve Simmons)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:30:45 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp=LsbM7OFaiX=n1e1i3juqwhKYw8q4XUgOZdZa+AHhTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmr7tgPt2v-g4J+OGijgxVzzekTSO8M+SA2XS9b7-jvv2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A84D9D.9030608@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmp=LsbM7OFaiX=n1e1i3juqwhKYw8q4XUgOZdZa+AHhTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A85AF5.6000507@gmail.com>


On 11/12/2013 13:02, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Steve Simmons <square.steve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/12/2013 11:45, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
>>> introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
>>> role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
>>> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
>>> Knight Templar villain!
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>
>> Oi! You!!
>>
>> I'll have you know I'm a bona fide Knight of the Temple and we're not (all)
>> villains!
>> If I catch you calling us villains again, I'll slide up behind you in the
>> mud and dig you
>> with my ceremonial sword!  ;-)
> Mister Simmons, Mister Simmons! We are not for one moment doubting
> your sincerity. It's just your intelligence that's in question. [1]
>
> [1] http://www.thegoonshow.net/scripts_show.asp?title=s06e19_the_jet_propelled_guided_naafi
>
> ChrisA
> Attempting to atone for pointing people to TVTropes... or maybe to be
> hung for a sheep rather than a lamb....
OK, We'll call it a draw. [2 - or is that 1?]

SteveS

[2 - or is that 3?  Three shall be the number...] 
http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Holy_Grail/Scene4.htm




From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:38:08 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:38:08 +1000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8bi40$lr3$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/12/2013 8:45 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> A round of applause for jmf, folks,
> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
> Knight Templar villain!

Jacques de Molay, thou are avenged!



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 04:17:27 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:17:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>

Le mercredi 11 d?cembre 2013 11:45:43 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit?:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
> 
> > start.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:39 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > A few practical considerations, far away from theoretical
> 
> > aspects. Mainly for non ascii, understand non native English
> 
> > speakers.
> 
> 
> 
> And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
> 
> introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
> 
> role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
> 
> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
> 
> Knight Templar villain!
> 

I know Python since ver. 1.5.6 and used it intensively
since ver. 2.0 or 2.1 (?). I acquired some user experience.

Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
ascii for the representation. As an example, this guy
who some time ago exposed his own solution to solve that
problem (btw, elegant and correct). ---  you wrote blah, blah
about his "mysterious code point", you did not recognize
he is (was) using Turkish Windows with the code
page cp1254 ---. It is a little bit fascinating, 20 years
after the creation a language, people are still fighting
to write text in a human way.

Unicode. For a first language, it may be not a bad idea
to use a language which uses "unicode ? la unicode".

Windows, Py3, unicode. It is is infortunate, but it is
a fact Python has some problems with that platform (file
sytem encoding), -> potential problems which should not
exist for a beginner.
I am the first to recognize the win console is all but
friendly. If one wishes to use a unicode code page, Python
fails [*].

Python has plenty of good qualities, you (and others)
are discussing plenty of theoretical aspects.
I'm pointing the fact, one may be stuck simply because
one cannot display a piece of of text!
I'm not so sure, such a behaviour is expected from a
beginner learning a computer language.


[*] I toyed with go(lang) and ruby 2 (only in a unicode
perspective), I should say I had no problems. Why? No
idea, it is too far beyond my knowlege.

jmf




From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 05:28:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:28:35 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmokiFipCzNiZagiovvmi=UVwnDQXLFUAaSBb+SuyZ6U2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
> ascii for the representation.

Actually no, it doesn't.

Python 2.7.4 (default, Apr  6 2013, 19:54:46) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
(Intel)] on win32
>>> s = "abcd\xa9"
>>> print(s)
abcd?

The copyright symbol is not in ASCII. Are you suggesting that Python
uses a 7-bit internal representation of this data? Because a quick
squiz at the source code will prove that wrong. This is not ASCII.

ChrisA


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 12 08:52:21 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:52:21 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8cf29$cl4$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/13 4:17 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le mercredi 11 d?cembre 2013 11:45:43 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> When you tell a story, it's important to engage the reader from the
>>
>>> start.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:39 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> A few practical considerations, far away from theoretical
>>
>>> aspects. Mainly for non ascii, understand non native English
>>
>>> speakers.
>>
>>
>>
>> And then, shortly after the beginning of the story, you need to
>>
>> introduce the villain. Thanks, jmf, for taking that position in our
>>
>> role-play storytelling scenario! A round of applause for jmf, folks,
>>
>> for doing a brilliant impression of the uninformed-yet-fanatical
>>
>> Knight Templar villain!
>>
>
> I know Python since ver. 1.5.6 and used it intensively
> since ver. 2.0 or 2.1 (?). I acquired some user experience.
>
> Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
> ascii for the representation.

It is incorrect that Py2.x uses ASCII strings.  It uses byte strings. 
Source files are assumed to be encoded in ASCII, so byte strings often 
are ASCII.  But as Chris has pointed out, bytestrings can hold any byte 
data, including UTF-8 if you wish.

JMF, I think you are clever enough and care enough about these issues to 
get this straight.

Many people seem to like the Pragmatic Unicode presentation I did, it 
may clear up some issues:  http://nedbatchelder.com/text/unipain.html

I'd be glad to have an extended conversation with you offline if you 
don't want to get into details here.

> As an example, this guy
> who some time ago exposed his own solution to solve that
> problem (btw, elegant and correct). ---  you wrote blah, blah
> about his "mysterious code point", you did not recognize
> he is (was) using Turkish Windows with the code
> page cp1254 ---. It is a little bit fascinating, 20 years
> after the creation a language, people are still fighting
> to write text in a human way.

"This guy": I have no idea who you are talking about.

>
> Unicode. For a first language, it may be not a bad idea
> to use a language which uses "unicode ? la unicode".
>
> Windows, Py3, unicode. It is is infortunate, but it is
> a fact Python has some problems with that platform (file
> sytem encoding), -> potential problems which should not
> exist for a beginner.

File system encodings are very difficult.  Linux uses byte strings for 
file names, with no attempt to record the encoding, so there's a strong 
possibility that the declared encoding for the filesystem is wrong, or 
that your guess at the encoding will be wrong.

> I am the first to recognize the win console is all but
> friendly. If one wishes to use a unicode code page, Python
> fails [*].

Yes, the Windows console and Python don't get along well with Unicode. 
This is a long-standing ticket: http://bugs.python.org/issue1602  I'm 
sure they would welcome your contribution towards a solution.  When I 
use Windows, I often wish this were solved.

>
> Python has plenty of good qualities, you (and others)
> are discussing plenty of theoretical aspects.
> I'm pointing the fact, one may be stuck simply because
> one cannot display a piece of of text!
> I'm not so sure, such a behaviour is expected from a
> beginner learning a computer language.
>
>
> [*] I toyed with go(lang) and ruby 2 (only in a unicode
> perspective), I should say I had no problems. Why? No
> idea, it is too far beyond my knowlege.
>
> jmf
>
>


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 09:30:24 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:30:24 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8cf29$cl4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <l8cf29$cl4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8cha0$8gm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 13:52, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
> I'd be glad to have an extended conversation with you offline if you
> don't want to get into details here.

Would you please to kind enough to keep it online, I enjoy a good 
comedian and our erstwhile unicode expert is one of the best, if not the 
best, in this field.

If you do take it offline would you please ask him to stop sending via 
google groups, or to take appropriate action to stop the extremely 
annoying double spacing.

> Yes, the Windows console and Python don't get along well with Unicode.
> This is a long-standing ticket: http://bugs.python.org/issue1602  I'm
> sure they would welcome your contribution towards a solution.  When I
> use Windows, I often wish this were solved.
>

There's also http://bugs.python.org/issue14170 and 
http://bugs.python.org/issue15809 amongst others.  Contributing towards 
a solution is a simple thing to do.  Finding a solution isn't as simple 
see e.g. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/dev/731701

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:34:40 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:34:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>

Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 11:28:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit?:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
> 
> > ascii for the representation.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually no, it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Python 2.7.4 (default, Apr  6 2013, 19:54:46) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
> 
> (Intel)] on win32
> 
> >>> s = "abcd\xa9"
> 
> >>> print(s)
> 
> abcd?
> 
> 
> 
> The copyright symbol is not in ASCII. Are you suggesting that Python
> 
> uses a 7-bit internal representation of this data? Because a quick
> 
> squiz at the source code will prove that wrong. This is not ASCII.
> 
> 

>>> sys.version
'2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]'
>>> sys.stdout.encoding
'cp1252'
>>> s = 'abc\xa9'
>>> t = 'abc?'
>>> s
'abc\xa9'
>>> t
'abc\xa9'
>>> print s, t, (s, t)
abc? abc? ('abc\xa9', 'abc\xa9')
>>> def HumanStr(o):
	t = repr(o)
	newt = t.replace('\\xa9', '?')
	return newt

>>> print s, t, (s, t), HumanStr((s, t))
abc? abc? ('abc\xa9', 'abc\xa9') ('abc?', 'abc?')
>>> 

jmf

PS I do not insist on "sys.displayhook"

PS2 I can only congratulate this Turkish guy for
his understanding of Python


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:47:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:47:40 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpbwUyTnv1muVjhMVhdcSdSeJ5bZ4vNejT3kL-SwnY11Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:34 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 11:28:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
>> > ascii for the representation.
>>
>> Actually no, it doesn't.
>
>>>> sys.version
> '2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]'
>>>> sys.stdout.encoding
> 'cp1252'

What has this to do with ASCII or with Python's internal
representation? All you've proven is that you can convert the repr of
a string back into a byte-string, by replacing "\\xa9" with "\xa9",
and then shown that you can successfully render that as CP-1252 and it
displays as a copyright symbol. Meanwhile when I try the same thing on
my Windows box, the default encoding is cp437, so it throws. Proves
nothing about ASCII, as neither of those encodings is ASCII, and A9
does not decode as ASCII.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 10:01:39 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:01:39 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8cj4j$uts$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 14:34, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 11:28:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
>>
>>> ascii for the representation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Actually no, it doesn't.
>>
>>
>>
>> Python 2.7.4 (default, Apr  6 2013, 19:54:46) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
>>
>> (Intel)] on win32
>>
>>>>> s = "abcd\xa9"
>>
>>>>> print(s)
>>
>> abcd?
>>
>>
>>
>> The copyright symbol is not in ASCII. Are you suggesting that Python
>>
>> uses a 7-bit internal representation of this data? Because a quick
>>
>> squiz at the source code will prove that wrong. This is not ASCII.
>>
>>
>
>>>> sys.version
> '2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]'
>>>> sys.stdout.encoding
> 'cp1252'
>>>> s = 'abc\xa9'
>>>> t = 'abc?'
>>>> s
> 'abc\xa9'
>>>> t
> 'abc\xa9'
>>>> print s, t, (s, t)
> abc? abc? ('abc\xa9', 'abc\xa9')
>>>> def HumanStr(o):
> 	t = repr(o)
> 	newt = t.replace('\\xa9', '?')
> 	return newt
>
>>>> print s, t, (s, t), HumanStr((s, t))
> abc? abc? ('abc\xa9', 'abc\xa9') ('abc?', 'abc?')
>>>>
>
> jmf
>
> PS I do not insist on "sys.displayhook"
>
> PS2 I can only congratulate this Turkish guy for
> his understanding of Python
>

I understand that this Turkish guy will be added to the list here 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_Award next year for his stunning 
contribution to the field of computer science.  The year after he will 
win the award again for his outstanding contribution which prevents 
people from sending double spaced crap to this list.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 11:20:45 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:20:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3995.1386859664.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3995.1386859664.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0e74b365-0f34-40dd-9d38-48135e428ec7@googlegroups.com>

Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 15:47:40 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit?:
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:34 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 11:28:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
> 
> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> > Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
> 
> >> > ascii for the representation.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Actually no, it doesn't.
> 
> >
> 
> >>>> sys.version
> 
> > '2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]'
> 
> >>>> sys.stdout.encoding
> 
> > 'cp1252'
> 
> 
> 
> What has this to do with ASCII or with Python's internal
> 
> representation? All you've proven is that you can convert the repr of
> 
> a string back into a byte-string, by replacing "\\xa9" with "\xa9",
> 
> and then shown that you can successfully render that as CP-1252 and it
> 
> displays as a copyright symbol. Meanwhile when I try the same thing on
> 
> my Windows box, the default encoding is cp437, so it throws. Proves
> 
> nothing about ASCII, as neither of those encodings is ASCII, and A9
> 
> does not decode as ASCII.
> 
> 


Are you understanding Python by chance? print, __repr__, __str__,
sys.std*.encoding, ...
Are you understanding Windows? CHCP
Are you understanding the coding of the characters? cp1252, cp850, cp437, ...

Python (2) is managing 	all this very well. Unfortunately, not in
a friendly way.

jmf


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 12 11:58:06 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:58:06 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <0e74b365-0f34-40dd-9d38-48135e428ec7@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3979.1386844124.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dec310f8-dd2e-4890-923e-fe809b8aef24@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3995.1386859664.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0e74b365-0f34-40dd-9d38-48135e428ec7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8cpui$l1f$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/13 11:20 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 15:47:40 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
>> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:34 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 11:28:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit :
>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:17 PM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Windows, Py2.(7), ascii. It is not a secret Python uses
>>
>>>>> ascii for the representation.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Actually no, it doesn't.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>> sys.version
>>
>>> '2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]'
>>
>>>>>> sys.stdout.encoding
>>
>>> 'cp1252'
>>
>>
>>
>> What has this to do with ASCII or with Python's internal
>>
>> representation? All you've proven is that you can convert the repr of
>>
>> a string back into a byte-string, by replacing "\\xa9" with "\xa9",
>>
>> and then shown that you can successfully render that as CP-1252 and it
>>
>> displays as a copyright symbol. Meanwhile when I try the same thing on
>>
>> my Windows box, the default encoding is cp437, so it throws. Proves
>>
>> nothing about ASCII, as neither of those encodings is ASCII, and A9
>>
>> does not decode as ASCII.
>>
>>
>
>
> Are you understanding Python by chance? print, __repr__, __str__,
> sys.std*.encoding, ...
> Are you understanding Windows? CHCP
> Are you understanding the coding of the characters? cp1252, cp850, cp437, ...
>

Before we talk about Unicode, we should talk about the process of 
convincing people of things.

Asking questions won't convince anyone of anything.  If you have new 
information, then present it to us.  Presenting it means: show some 
code, show some bad outcome, and then explain what you you have 
demonstrated.  Be specific about what problem you are showing.

You said "Python uses ASCII."  Then you showed us Python code with 
non-ASCII characters.  We are confused what you are trying to tell us.

Python 2 uses byte strings.  Those byte strings can contain any bytes, 
conforming to any encoding the developer desires.  You asserted that it 
uses ASCII.  That is incorrect.

We have discussed Unicode with you enough to believe that we are not 
going to agree with you.  You hold a (very) minority view about what 
Python does with text, and you are not able to convince people of your 
view.  Isn't that frustrating?  Perhaps you need a new approach.

> Python (2) is managing 	all this very well. Unfortunately, not in
> a friendly way.
>
> jmf
>


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 12 12:55:15 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:55:15 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ct9q$v2l$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 4:17 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

> Windows, Py3, unicode. It is is infortunate, but it is
> a fact Python has some problems with that platform (file
> sytem encoding), -> potential problems which should not
> exist for a beginner.

Some disappear if, for instance, one uses Idle.

> I am the first to recognize the win console is all but
> friendly.

Something we agree on. It is a piece crap. I believe that MS keeps it 
crippled to discourage use. (They apparently would like to remove it.)

> If one wishes to use a unicode code page, Python fails [*].

If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails, 
not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code 
pages work.

Tk, and hence tkinter and idle work fine with the entire BMP. If one 
tells tk to use a font that can handle the entire BMP, it displays the 
entire BMP.

> Python has plenty of good qualities, you (and others)
> are discussing plenty of theoretical aspects.
> I'm pointing the fact, one may be stuck simply because
> one cannot display a piece of of text!

Most text display problems disappear if one avoids Command Prompt and 
uses a GUI that can handle at least the BMP. Idle works on Windows after 
Python is installed unless one tells the installer to not install tcl/tk.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:15:42 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:15:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>

Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails, 
> 
> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code 
> 
> pages work.
> 
> 
> 

-----

Please, do not exaggerate too much.
On my win7 box, using cp65001:

The golang works. Despite my poor knowledge with with
this language, I even relatively quickly succeded to write
a "readline" fct.

Ruby 2 works.

irb, the interactive ruby works. I remember to have had
some diffuculties in entering some chars, this a different
problem.

echo "unicode" works.

xelatex (my favourite tool), a tex-unicode engine, works.
I'm usualy using a GUI tool, I just tested with a "???.tex"
document. Indeed, it works.

Starting that created document "???.pdf" with the cmd
> start ???.pdf
works. It calls Acrobat Reader.

Starting that created document with Sumatra, a pdf viewer
works.

Not directly related to my comment, I can compile a
.tex document in such a dir
> D:\jm\??????\Z?rich\?????\?dipe
and it works.

Something a little bit different. Neil Hodgson's SciTE
editor. One can configure the output pane to use 65001.
All the examples above works. It is also possible to 
make Python working, but I had to write my own "printing
material".

A note about font. The console does not, and is not able,
to display all the "chars". It is however always displaying
text very smoothly and correctly using the replacement *glyph".
Nothing to do with an "incorrect behaviour" of the console.

Eg:
> echo "??????*"
works.

I mainly considered BMP "characters".

Windows is not so bad. One can discuss ad nauseam
the pros and cons of console-gui application. I have
always considered Windows as a system which use gui
applications. And even with Python using a gui toolkit,
I sometimes "link" my own created "gui console".

I do not wish to defend MS. What I wrote depends
on the Windows version, XP, Vista, Windows 7. 
One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
(With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)

jmf





From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:27:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:27:35 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)

[citation needed]

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 11:39:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:39:35 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>
> [citation needed]
>
> ChrisA
>

You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's 
never yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever 
made here.  Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double 
spaced google crap.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:43:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:43:11 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpDJ+gLg0y-x6DtAVpC8_7rZAYckg01o0MEV5ECe9wk5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>>
>>
>> [citation needed]
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>
> You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
> yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
> Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
> crap.

I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 12:02:29 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:02:29 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpDJ+gLg0y-x6DtAVpC8_7rZAYckg01o0MEV5ECe9wk5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpDJ+gLg0y-x6DtAVpC8_7rZAYckg01o0MEV5ECe9wk5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8fej6$n93$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 16:43, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/12/2013 16:27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>>>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>>>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>>>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>>>
>>>
>>> [citation needed]
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>
>> You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
>> yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
>> Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
>> crap.
>
> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.
>
> ChrisA
>

How can it be deliberate choice, that implies thought in the first 
place, which is highly conspicious by its absence?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:54:07 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:54:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4080.1386953000.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4080.1386953000.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <efad63f9-50f4-448d-aeb9-8ec0fd16946d@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 10:13:11 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> > You'll have to wait until the cows come home on two counts.  One, he's never
> > yet provided any evidence to support any statement that he's ever made here.
> > Second, he's still not smart enough to stop sending double spaced google
> > crap.

> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.

Correlates? Ok
Ensures??   Citation needed


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:57:07 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:57:07 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <efad63f9-50f4-448d-aeb9-8ec0fd16946d@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8fd88$5nn$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4080.1386953000.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <efad63f9-50f4-448d-aeb9-8ec0fd16946d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp_x6--a=6qcDJG_qsq9QfB-=izMjRTJfnx_QRv4=DS=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:54 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't know that it's a matter of not being smart enough. It's just
>> as likely to be a deliberate choice, as that method of posting ensures
>> that the quality of the style matches the quality of the substance.
>
> Correlates? Ok
> Ensures??   Citation needed

For jmf's posts? Definitely ensures. Citation: python-list archives. :)

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec 13 18:30:38 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:30:38 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8g5am$t6d$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/13/2013 11:27 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
>> a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
>> one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
>> (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
>
> [citation needed]

Chris, I hardly think Jim's last statement (which I presume is your 
target) is egregious enough to start another junk subthread of 9 (now 
10) posts. Certainly '[citation needed]' is a pretty senseless comment. 
'Citation' to what, for what? It is well-known that Windows uses 2-byte 
words for unicode coding. If you want a citation for that fact, find it 
yourself.

What is not clear to me is whether Windows internally uses UCS-2, which 
only codes BMP chars, and which would *not* be excellent, or UTF-16, 
which covers all chars by using surrogates. I will guess the latter. 
More to the point, even if MS uses a complete coding scheme internally 
(UFT-16), it does not, as far as I know, make it fully available and 
usable to *me*, as I showed in my response about code page 65001.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 18:38:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:38:48 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8g5am$t6d$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8g5am$t6d$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmot6w_pu_HnJLm47znKn9aCpEh234Q_V+RkynpfinOF5A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> Chris, I hardly think Jim's last statement (which I presume is your target)
> is egregious enough to start another junk subthread of 9 (now 10) posts.
> Certainly '[citation needed]' is a pretty senseless comment. 'Citation' to
> what, for what? It is well-known that Windows uses 2-byte words for unicode
> coding. If you want a citation for that fact, find it yourself.
>
> What is not clear to me is whether Windows internally uses UCS-2, which only
> codes BMP chars, and which would *not* be excellent, or UTF-16, which covers
> all chars by using surrogates. I will guess the latter. More to the point,
> even if MS uses a complete coding scheme internally (UFT-16), it does not,
> as far as I know, make it fully available and usable to *me*, as I showed in
> my response about code page 65001.

And what I'm more asking for is a clarification on how Win 7 is
different from the previous Windowses. I know a lot did change from XP
to 7 (I don't care which side of Vista the change happened, let's just
compare the popular Windows with the popular Windows here), but I
wasn't aware that anything to do with Unicode had changed there. Since
jmf made the assertion in words which implied that Microsoft had now
*and only now* produced such a system, I asked for a citation.

ChrisA


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 09:03:46 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 06:03:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>

Le samedi 14 d?cembre 2013 00:30:38 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is not clear to me is whether Windows internally uses UCS-2, which 
> 
> only codes BMP chars, and which would *not* be excellent, or UTF-16, 
> 
> which covers all chars by using surrogates. I will guess the latter. 
> 
> More to the point, even if MS uses a complete coding scheme internally 
> 
> (UFT-16), it does not, as far as I know, make it fully available and 
> 
> usable to *me*, as I showed in my response about code page 65001.
> 
> 


-------------

D:\>chcp 65001
Page de codes active?: 65001
D:\>echo "*"
"*"
D:\>


>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
('fr_CH', 'cp1252')

----------

In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
(desktop, intel), today:
Unicode == utf-16-le

----------

If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.

You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).


jmf


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 09:15:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 01:15:00 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqneWJeiwBeQ0Lvn6QoGKD0kexKeC1f5SvPWZxSZikavw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:03 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> D:\>chcp 65001
> Page de codes active : 65001
> D:\>echo "*"
> "*"
> D:\>
>
>
>>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
> ('fr_CH', 'cp1252')
>
> ----------
>
> In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
> (desktop, intel), today:
> Unicode == utf-16-le

You still haven't explained how Win7 is different from every other
Windows going back as far as NT. Back in the NT days, Windows had
"Unicode" (really UCS-2 - it predated Unicode 2.0, so that was correct
for a few years) while OS/2 had DBCS. Hindsight shows that OS/2 did
kinda get left behind there :) Though maybe it would be easier to
force migration from DBCS to true Unicode than from UTF-16 or UCS-2
where it looks fine till you hit an astral character. Now how is Win7
different from NT? And where does the current "oldstable" Windows (if
I may borrow a term from Debian), XP, fit into that?

> If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
> not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.
>
> You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
> probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).

Yeah. I use UTF-32 a lot, often stored in ways that elide unnecessary
00 bytes. It's a pretty good system, actually, giving high
performance, compact memory usage, and correct behaviour. Still don't
know what this has to do with Win7.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 09:38:23 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:38:23 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqneWJeiwBeQ0Lvn6QoGKD0kexKeC1f5SvPWZxSZikavw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqneWJeiwBeQ0Lvn6QoGKD0kexKeC1f5SvPWZxSZikavw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8hqh1$7qe$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 14:15, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:03 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> D:\>chcp 65001
>> Page de codes active : 65001
>> D:\>echo "*"
>> "*"
>> D:\>
>>
>>
>>>>> locale.getdefaultlocale()
>> ('fr_CH', 'cp1252')
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> In my understanding and experience, in the MS world
>> (desktop, intel), today:
>> Unicode == utf-16-le
>
> You still haven't explained how Win7 is different from every other
> Windows going back as far as NT. Back in the NT days, Windows had
> "Unicode" (really UCS-2 - it predated Unicode 2.0, so that was correct
> for a few years) while OS/2 had DBCS. Hindsight shows that OS/2 did
> kinda get left behind there :) Though maybe it would be easier to
> force migration from DBCS to true Unicode than from UTF-16 or UCS-2
> where it looks fine till you hit an astral character. Now how is Win7
> different from NT? And where does the current "oldstable" Windows (if
> I may borrow a term from Debian), XP, fit into that?
>
>> If you think, utf-16, because of surrogate pairs, is
>> not a proper solution, the single choice is utf-32.
>>
>> You may not be aware, you are already using utf-32
>> probably much more than you think, (in a correct way).
>
> Yeah. I use UTF-32 a lot, often stored in ways that elide unnecessary
> 00 bytes. It's a pretty good system, actually, giving high
> performance, compact memory usage, and correct behaviour. Still don't
> know what this has to do with Win7.
>
> ChrisA
>

Reread "The Emperor's New Clothes" and you'll get it :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec 14 13:43:41 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8i8sl$qdp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/14/2013 9:03 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

> D:\>chcp 65001
> Page de codes active : 65001
> D:\>echo "*"
> "*"

Try pasting *your* original echo command: echo "??????*"

To repeat, here is what I see:
'''
C:\Users\Terry>echo "??????*"
"??????*"

C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
The system cannot write to the specified device.
'''
To repeat, the second time I paste: echo "??????*"
but Command Prompt only displays: echo "*". Typing in the latter, 
ascii-only, command is meaningless.

A similar test:
'''
C:\Users\Terry>more
^Z

C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>more
Not enough memory.
'''
This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's 
interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).

 >>> help(str)
Not enough memory.

See
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3401802/codepage-850-works-65001-fails-there-is-no-response-to-call-foo-cmd-interna
for other reports that cp65001 fails. It is not just me.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 15:48:05 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:48:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>

Le samedi 14 d?cembre 2013 19:43:41 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit?:
> On 12/14/2013 9:03 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > D:\>chcp 65001
> 
> > Page de codes active : 65001
> 
> > D:\>echo "*"
> 
> > "*"
> 
> 
> 
> Try pasting *your* original echo command: echo "??????*"
> 
> 
> 
> To repeat, here is what I see:
> 
> '''
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "??????*"
> 
> "??????*"
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> 
> Active code page: 65001
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
> 
> The system cannot write to the specified device.
> 
> '''
> 
> To repeat, the second time I paste: echo "??????*"
> 
> but Command Prompt only displays: echo "*". Typing in the latter, 
> 
> ascii-only, command is meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> A similar test:
> 
> '''
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>more
> 
> ^Z
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> 
> Active code page: 65001
> 
> 
> 
> C:\Users\Terry>more
> 
> Not enough memory.
> 
> '''
> 
> This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
> 
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
> 
> to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's 
> 
> interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).
> 
> 
> 
>  >>> help(str)
> 
> Not enough memory.
> 
> 
> 
> See
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3401802/codepage-850-works-65001-fails-there-is-no-response-to-call-foo-cmd-interna
> 
> for other reports that cp65001 fails. It is not just me.
> 
> 
> 

----

>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
EURO SIGN
CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
COUNTERBORE
ASTERISK

-----

cp65001, font: Consolas

D:\jm\jmgo>echo "??????*"
"??????*"

As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph:
the chars 1, 4 and 7.

I build an exe with the golang. Same result.

Just for curiosity:
XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
LucidaConsole CID TrueType, 
Consolas CID TrueType
understand: "OpenType"

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 16:05:05 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +0000
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ih64$d3o$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
> EURO SIGN
> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
> COUNTERBORE
> ASTERISK
>
> -----
>
> cp65001, font: Consolas
>
> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "??????*"
> "??????*"
>
> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph:
> the chars 1, 4 and 7.
>
> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>
> Just for curiosity:
> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
> Consolas CID TrueType
> understand: "OpenType"
>
> jmf
>

Where is the Python related issue here?  Why do you keep posting double 
spaced crap, despite repeated requests not to do so?  Or do you blame 
this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 FSR implementation?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 17:51:08 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 22:51:08 GMT
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
>> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
>> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
>> EURO SIGN
>> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
>> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
>> COUNTERBORE
>> ASTERISK
>>
>> -----
>>
>> cp65001, font: Consolas
>>
>> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "??????*"
>> "??????*"
>>
>> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the
>> chars 1, 4 and 7.
>>
>> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>>
>> Just for curiosity:
>> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
>> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
>> Consolas CID TrueType
>> understand: "OpenType"
>>
>> jmf
>>
>>
> Where is the Python related issue here?

Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing 
people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the 
connection, you need to read the whole thread.


> Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests
> not to do so?  Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393 
> FSR implementation?

I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted.

Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over 
minor formatting issues?

Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of 
efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never 
treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that 
you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the 
target of his communication unless you choose to be.

Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive 
screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor 
formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining 
about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a 
wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so 
far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 18:32:33 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:32:33 +0000
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8ipqk$ra$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 22:51, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:05:05 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 14/12/2013 20:48, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> print((os.linesep).join([unicodedata.name(c) for c in u]))
>>> ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE
>>> LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE
>>> EURO SIGN
>>> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-3456
>>> CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GJE
>>> COUNTERBORE
>>> ASTERISK
>>>
>>> -----
>>>
>>> cp65001, font: Consolas
>>>
>>> D:\jm\jmgo>echo "??????*"
>>> "??????*"
>>>
>>> As I explained some chars are rendered with the .notdef glyph: the
>>> chars 1, 4 and 7.
>>>
>>> I build an exe with the golang. Same result.
>>>
>>> Just for curiosity:
>>> XeTeX -> pdf: same result.
>>> LucidaConsole CID TrueType,
>>> Consolas CID TrueType
>>> understand: "OpenType"
>>>
>>> jmf
>>>
>>>
>> Where is the Python related issue here?
>
> Read the whole thread before charging in like a bull at a gate accusing
> people of being off-topic. This is on-topic, and if you don't see the
> connection, you need to read the whole thread.

I have.  Going back over this thread the words from Terry Reedy make 
things perfectly clear that this is a *WINDOWS* problem, not a *PYTHON* 
one.  Chris Angelico also weighed in, but again he was simply ignored. 
Instead some completely irrelevant cobblers turned up from "Joseph 
McCarthy".

>
>
>> Why do you keep posting double spaced crap, despite repeated requests
>> not to do so?  Or do you blame this on the allegedly failed PEP 393
>> FSR implementation?
>
> I see no double-spacing in the text you quoted.

There is no double spacing because for the umpteenth time I've snipped 
the whole damn lot.

>
> Do you have nothing better to do than continually hassle people over
> minor formatting issues?

This is *NOT* a minor formatting issue, it's a big PITA that should be 
stopped at source.  It would be easier for this to happen if and only if 
people would stop defending the bug ridden crap tools that are being 
used to send the double spaced crap.

Oh Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?
My friends all use GG, I think that's absurd.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from the nerds,
So Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?

>
> Formatting issues are harmful to the degree they get in the way of
> efficient communication. Since by your own admission you have never
> treated JMF as being credible, there's nothing he can write or say that
> you will believe, so why do you care what he writes? You are not the
> target of his communication unless you choose to be.

While he continues to talk crap here I will respond, as I will also 
complain about double spaced google crap until it stops.  I will further 
state again that I find his disgusting, unwarrented attacks on the PEP 
393 FSR indefensible, and are also an attack on the core developers 
who've taken the time to deliver a faster, (relatively) bug free and 
lower memory useage implementation of unicode for Python 3.3+.

>
> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive
> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor
> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining
> about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a
> wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so
> far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.
>

Your opinion, obviously I disagree, these IMO are *NOT* minor issues, 
and they're also completely avoidable.  Stop the problems at source and 
there are no issues to complain about.  I've written no such thing, I 
simply point it out half a dozen times a day as the latest pile of crap 
turns up here.  Stop the problems at source and there are no issues to 
complain about.  Yes, that's there twice so nobody can miss it.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 23:42:40 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:42:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive 
> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor 
> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are complaining 
> about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort to write up a 
> wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that will only go so 
> far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.

I guess you are talking about
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

As you will see
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info

most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones
(sorry I missed putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution
are by me.

[No I am not asking for 'gratitude'... just sayin' and giving some context]

There was this ridiculous guy Jonas
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658671.html

who responded to calls to correct the typical GG mess with more and more
exceptional rudeness
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-October/658816.html

So I thought to myself: Well this is too much!
And yet while the rudeness is indefensible the technical grumble:
"I'm not going to go deleting newlines" is not.

Hell! Rather than making a socio-eco-politco-anthropo-marxist-feminist
mess, why dont we fix a technical problem technically??

To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle
who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb,
rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing.

So, given that I am a programmer I came up (with some tips from Kushal
Kumaran?) with a technical solution.  If I were an ace programmer (can
learn JS in a day and make useful contributions) it would have been a
0-click solution.  [And if I were a super-ace, it would have been a
beneficient virus, that would comb the net, discover all GG users and
self-install without anyone's knowing] Since I am not ace or super-ace
but only a humble programmer (like Dijkstra!) its a 2-click solution
that needs installation :-;

Still, GIVEN THE CONTEXT -- addressing not anyone but an already-GG
user who is clueless about the nuisance he's causing -- I think this
solution is easiest to all.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 23:48:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:48:05 +1100
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmomRyp6ff=nWx=if8mpNfK4hNKWMwF05XwsyHwu5HcF8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:42 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle
> who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb,
> rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing.

No, it's like moaning about Foo Brand light bulbs that die after two
weeks, when there are perfectly good light bulbs that last for years
if you'll just use a different brand. And there are people who say
"But Foo Brand light bulbs are easy, you just go up on a ladder every
time you want to turn it on and make sure there's a good bulb in it!".

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 15 09:25:26 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:25:26 +0000
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmomRyp6ff=nWx=if8mpNfK4hNKWMwF05XwsyHwu5HcF8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmomRyp6ff=nWx=if8mpNfK4hNKWMwF05XwsyHwu5HcF8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8ke4b$6co$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 15/12/2013 04:48, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:42 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>> To me all this GG complaining sounds like some elderly mom-pop-uncle
>> who weeps/coaxes/moans/pleads/grumbles/ about a fused light bulb,
>> rather than climbing on a stool and changing the bloody thing.
>
> No, it's like moaning about Foo Brand light bulbs that die after two
> weeks, when there are perfectly good light bulbs that last for years
> if you'll just use a different brand. And there are people who say
> "But Foo Brand light bulbs are easy, you just go up on a ladder every
> time you want to turn it on and make sure there's a good bulb in it!".
>
> ChrisA
>

On this count I observe that on 15/12/2013 GMT at 08:26 the cows still 
haven't come home :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 15 00:00:12 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 15 Dec 2013 05:00:12 GMT
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ad375c$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:42:40 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:21:08 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Apart from annoying the bystanders, your repeated angry and abusive
>> screeds aimed at JMF in particular but others as well over minor
>> formatting issues is more disruptive than the issues you are
>> complaining about. I am grateful to you for taking the time and effort
>> to write up a wiki page on fixing this issues, but gratitude for that
>> will only go so far in forgiving disruptive behaviour.
> 
> I guess you are talking about
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> 
> As you will see
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython?action=info
> 
> most of the edits there are by rurpy and the recent ones (sorry I missed
> putting comments) which are for a more automatic solution are by me.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the 
work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical 
advice.


-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 00:24:55 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:24:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <52ad375c$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <256fbd43-597c-4d23-910c-37f878b5bd91@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4128.1387055133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace0dc$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <1a0db7e5-98fe-4c83-92fa-de2a644e34d0@googlegroups.com>
 <52ad375c$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <082c4f73-55c3-49d1-881e-19193985398c@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 10:30:12 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I'm sorry, I was under the impression that Mark had done most of the 
> work. I hadn't realised that others had contributed most of the practical 
> advice.

To be fair, I added the stuff to the wiki on Mark's prompting.
Earlier was under the impression that not anyone could edit the wiki.


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 21:39:50 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 15 Dec 2013 02:39:50 GMT
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ad1675$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
> to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's
> interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).
> 
>  >>> help(str)
> Not enough memory.


Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little 
hasty. The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's 
"more" command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't 
necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it.

The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending 
on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive 
pager if the preferred one fails. The relevant code is the pager() and 
getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but 
I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly 
for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts?



-- 
Steven


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Dec 15 00:07:09 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 00:07:09 -0500
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <52ad1675$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ad1675$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8jddm$9sk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/14/2013 9:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
>> http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
>> to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's
>> interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).
>>
>>   >>> help(str)
>> Not enough memory.
>
>
> Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little
> hasty.

I might have been premature, but I was not hasty. I read the SO reports 
and though about it for an hour or so while looking at other issues. I 
did not see any use to leaving it open as I did not see any realistic 
propect of a useful and acceptible patch to Python. The OP himself said 
that i/o did not work with 65001 and that not using it fixed his issue.

> The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's
> "more" command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't
> necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it.

I believe running Python on Windows with cp=65001 falls in the category 
of "Don't do that". This is based on my experiences and the reported 
experience of other developers who have tried and failed to make it 
work, reinforced by the SO thread and a couple of other web pages.

> The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending
> on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive
> pager if the preferred one fails.

Do you know if 'more' actually signals failure?
Do you know if there are any other situations in which a pager fails?

> The relevant code is the pager() and
> getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but
> I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly
> for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts?

My thought is that if the only situation in which a pager fails is one 
that one should not use, because other things will also fail, then a 
patch would not be worth the bother.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 03:26:01 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 00:26:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP65001 fails (was re: ...)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4135.1387084047.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqcb9szh-H7=GQ8jcJy+eUt4VgDkeq2vj2Rs9764zOv4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4098.1386977455.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dd8997a6-ea2e-4434-9c75-19677a347e20@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4120.1387046636.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ad1675$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4135.1387084047.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b2581ecc-c87c-4c58-aa6c-1b107937a7ad@googlegroups.com>

Le dimanche 15 d?cembre 2013 06:07:09 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit?:
> On 12/14/2013 9:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:43:41 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >> This was reported by Victor Stinner as part of
> 
> >> http://bugs.python.org/issue19914
> 
> >> to explain how cp65001 causes behavior like this with Python's
> 
> >> interactive help() function (which more for paging on Windows).
> 
> >>
> 
> >>   >>> help(str)
> 
> >> Not enough memory.
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > Terry, I see you have closed the bug report. I think you were a little
> 
> > hasty.
> 
> 
> 
> I might have been premature, but I was not hasty. I read the SO reports 
> 
> and though about it for an hour or so while looking at other issues. I 
> 
> did not see any use to leaving it open as I did not see any realistic 
> 
> propect of a useful and acceptible patch to Python. The OP himself said 
> 
> that i/o did not work with 65001 and that not using it fixed his issue.
> 
> 
> 
> > The ultimate cause of the bug may be the failure of Window's
> 
> > "more" command when the code-page is set to CP-65001, but that doesn't
> 
> > necessarily imply that Python shouldn't, or can't, do something about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe running Python on Windows with cp=65001 falls in the category 
> 
> of "Don't do that". This is based on my experiences and the reported 
> 
> experience of other developers who have tried and failed to make it 
> 
> work, reinforced by the SO thread and a couple of other web pages.
> 
> 
> 
> > The interactive help system already supports different pagers, depending
> 
> > on the environment. I think that it could fall back on a more primitive
> 
> > pager if the preferred one fails.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know if 'more' actually signals failure?
> 
> Do you know if there are any other situations in which a pager fails?
> 
> 
> 
> > The relevant code is the pager() and
> 
> > getpager() functions in the pydoc module. The patch won't be trivial, but
> 
> > I think it can be done, and I think it should be done. Although possibly
> 
> > for Python 3.5 rather than a bug-fix version. Your thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> My thought is that if the only situation in which a pager fails is one 
> 
> that one should not use, because other things will also fail, then a 
> 
> patch would not be worth the bother.
> 
> 


If I'm understanding a little bit about coding of
characters, fonts, chars "inputing", I should say
I never really understood how all this stuff is
arranged. (I never found a real explanation too).


There is something, which may be very deeply bound to
the system (kernel ?). As an example, entering a
char with Alt+0XXX always works accordingly to my (the?)
localized windows version. Entering a char with
Alt+XXX (not the missing 0) uses the OEM (bios?)
encoding.

jmf



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 13:27:41 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:27:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4075.1386952058.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4075.1386952058.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ed9005ae-be0a-48b9-a68b-48001c173bb0@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 13 d?cembre 2013 17:27:35 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit?:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:15 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > One should recognize, with win7, MS, finally, produce
> 
> > a full unicode system. Strangely, among all the "bashing"
> 
> > one can read about that system, this is rarely mentioned.
> 
> > (With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)
> 
> 
> 
> [citation needed]
> 
-----

My guess is that you are referring to that
sentence "(With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)".
I do not need to cite anything. That's my opinion.

My comment was mainly oriented about cp65*** in the
context of a teaching programming language. I pointed
that some tools are working very well with that code
page.

jmf



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 13:32:58 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:32:58 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <ed9005ae-be0a-48b9-a68b-48001c173bb0@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4075.1386952058.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ed9005ae-be0a-48b9-a68b-48001c173bb0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqq9eb5JE9PRPw-OebjJ6ZFVKKb7RfdeaWLJv5ghaDALQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:27 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> My guess is that you are referring to that
> sentence "(With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)".
> I do not need to cite anything. That's my opinion.

Just as much to what's above it, where you state that MS has produced
"a full unicode system". Is that, too, just opinion, utterly unfounded
in fact, or can you provide a citation?

ChrisA


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 14:30:49 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:30:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4093.1386960895.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4075.1386952058.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <ed9005ae-be0a-48b9-a68b-48001c173bb0@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4093.1386960895.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c9193f2b-75f5-48c4-8973-8cc377273b86@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 13 d?cembre 2013 19:32:58 UTC+1, Chris Angelico a ?crit?:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:27 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > My guess is that you are referring to that
> 
> > sentence "(With an excellent unicode coding scheme!)".
> 
> > I do not need to cite anything. That's my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Just as much to what's above it, where you state that MS has produced
> 
> "a full unicode system". Is that, too, just opinion, utterly unfounded
> 
> in fact, or can you provide a citation?
> 
> 

I have not the knowledge to put a jugment on this. 
I read many articles on the subject from people
who seems to have some skills on the subject.

>From my own experience with my limited and empirical
computing experience, when I see the file system,
the rendering engine, the usage of OpenType fonts, ...
I tend to have to agree. I can also point that all
these aspects jump to my mind when I switched from
XP to 7. Some time ago, I even fall on an article
about the bootstraping mechanism (7 or 8 or future
version or RT ?) which uses natively ucs-2.

jmf




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec 13 17:49:32 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:49:32 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit :

>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code
>> pages work.

> Please, do not exaggerate too much.

I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.

 >> echo "??????*"
 > works.

I cut the mixed alphabet input line and pasted into a *fresh* Command 
Prompt window on my USA Win 7 machine with all updates.

C:\Users\Terry>echo "??????*"
"??????*"

About what I expected, except for ? becoming ,. Now the test. Change the 
code page and re-paste.
'''
C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
Active code page: 65001

C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
The system cannot write to the specified device.
'''
This a major fail as all non-ascii chars are deleted when pasted (at 
least visibly) and the echo does not echo. There is no Python involved 
in this failure.

I am willing to believe that you might have gotten different behavior on 
your French Win 7 machine. Windows is not an international OS, but 
rather a collection of ghettoized national versions.

As I said before, Idle does work in this regard.

Python 3.4.0a4 (v3.4.0a4:e245b0d7209b, Oct 20 2013, 19:57:58) [MSC 
v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
 >>> "??????*"
'??????*'

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 18:10:01 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:10:01 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 22:49, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit :
>
>>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other code
>>> pages work.
>
>> Please, do not exaggerate too much.
>
> I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.
>
>  >> echo "??????*"
>  > works.
>
> I cut the mixed alphabet input line and pasted into a *fresh* Command
> Prompt window on my USA Win 7 machine with all updates.
>
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "??????*"
> "??????*"
>
> About what I expected, except for ? becoming ,. Now the test. Change the
> code page and re-paste.
> '''
> C:\Users\Terry>chcp 65001
> Active code page: 65001
>
> C:\Users\Terry>echo "*"
> The system cannot write to the specified device.
> '''
> This a major fail as all non-ascii chars are deleted when pasted (at
> least visibly) and the echo does not echo. There is no Python involved
> in this failure.
>
> I am willing to believe that you might have gotten different behavior on
> your French Win 7 machine. Windows is not an international OS, but
> rather a collection of ghettoized national versions.
>
> As I said before, Idle does work in this regard.
>
> Python 3.4.0a4 (v3.4.0a4:e245b0d7209b, Oct 20 2013, 19:57:58) [MSC
> v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
>  >>> "??????*"
> '??????*'
>

Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute rounds. 
  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the referee won't stop the fight 
and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf actually trying to get himself 
killed?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Fri Dec 13 18:17:36 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:17:36 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52AB9590.80505@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/13/2013 03:10 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
> Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute rounds.  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the
> referee won't stop the fight and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf actually trying to get himself killed?

His credibility with me has been long dead.  :(

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 18:58:14 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:58:14 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52AB9590.80505@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AB9590.80505@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l8g6un$dma$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 23:17, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/13/2013 03:10 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>> Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute
>> rounds.  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the
>> referee won't stop the fight and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf
>> actually trying to get himself killed?
>
> His credibility with me has been long dead.  :(
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

With me it never lived, we've simply had to put up with his FUD for 16 
months.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 05:00:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 10:00:56 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AB9590.80505@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4101.1386979119.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ac2c58$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:58:14 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 13/12/2013 23:17, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 12/13/2013 03:10 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>> Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute
>>> rounds.  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the referee won't stop
>>> the fight and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf actually trying to
>>> get himself killed?
>>
>> His credibility with me has been long dead.  :(
>>
>> --
>> ~Ethan~
> 
> With me it never lived, we've simply had to put up with his FUD for 16
> months.

Mark, do you really mean to say that you were prejudiced against JMF 
before he even write a word here?

Strange thing to say, since he did actually identify a real performance 
regression, even if he has since become obsessed with demonstrating that 
a micro-performance slowdown means that Python is mathematically and 
logically broken.



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 08:21:28 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:21:28 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52ac2c58$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <l8g2tk$3os$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8g44b$g2b$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AB9590.80505@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4101.1386979119.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ac2c58$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8hm0q$rmb$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 10:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:58:14 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 13/12/2013 23:17, Ethan Furman wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2013 03:10 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Seems like we're now in the later stages of the 15, three minute
>>>> rounds.  The trainer won't throw in the towel, the referee won't stop
>>>> the fight and the boxer himself won't quit.  Is jmf actually trying to
>>>> get himself killed?
>>>
>>> His credibility with me has been long dead.  :(
>>>
>>> --
>>> ~Ethan~
>>
>> With me it never lived, we've simply had to put up with his FUD for 16
>> months.
>
> Mark, do you really mean to say that you were prejudiced against JMF
> before he even write a word here?
>
> Strange thing to say, since he did actually identify a real performance
> regression, even if he has since become obsessed with demonstrating that
> a micro-performance slowdown means that Python is mathematically and
> logically broken.
>

IIRC he first started spreading his rubbish sometime in August 2012, I 
make that around 16 months, what does your maths skills make it?  He 
also identified a problem in an edge case that stood out like a sore 
thumb when compared to real world cases.  Big deal.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 04:58:43 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 09:58:43 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0aef6f2-9091-4f27-b378-8e24257d3983@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3882.1386758747.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f62baa3e-d286-4f7b-b6db-71cafb0523d3@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4005.1386870936.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5b62c6f8-fb92-48ef-a59a-6025b9b39994@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4094.1386974995.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ac2bd3$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:49:32 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 12/13/2013 11:15 AM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>> Le jeudi 12 d?cembre 2013 18:55:15 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit :
> 
>>> If you mean cp65xxx (I forget exact numbers), MS Command Prompt fails,
>>> not Python. One should not use any other code page, but only other
>>> code pages work.
> 
>> Please, do not exaggerate too much.
> 
> I try not to, so in case I mis-remembered, I tried your experiment.

Terry, thanks for actually doing some useful Unicode experiments instead 
of just jumping on the "Let's all make fun of JMF bandwagon."


-- 
Steven


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 06:17:45 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 11:17:45 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3872.1386751441.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a849d9$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:43:52 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> [1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InMediasRes

TV Tropes? You utter, utter bastard.

Must... resist... call... of... TV Tropes...



-- 
Steven


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec 11 15:47:28 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:47:28 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com> <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A8CF60.9040202@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/11/2013 12:34 AM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> Doesn't sound like they do, as that's causing plenty of problems.  In
>> today's world that level of knowledge isn't always necessary, especially if
>> your degree is not in CS.  One of the (many) nice things about Python is one
>> doesn't need to know that stuff to Get Things Done.
>
> You don't need to know how to use the brakes to drive to Wal-Mart,
> either.

In my world, Getting Things Done includes not crashing at my destination.  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:07:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:07:40 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52A8CF60.9040202@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201312090824.25211.gheskett@wdtv.com>
 <52A78F6F.3060507@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJKoN9fV48yskd5wqE79vsb5=nPGfwgOTCO+fCFMG7g8qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A8CF60.9040202@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpNDo+wxw9WV+d-v-eivz7=EsGH7KfTkJzurggL9wPd1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 12:34 AM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>>
>>> Doesn't sound like they do, as that's causing plenty of problems.  In
>>> today's world that level of knowledge isn't always necessary, especially
>>> if
>>> your degree is not in CS.  One of the (many) nice things about Python is
>>> one
>>> doesn't need to know that stuff to Get Things Done.
>>
>>
>> You don't need to know how to use the brakes to drive to Wal-Mart,
>> either.
>
>
> In my world, Getting Things Done includes not crashing at my destination.
> ;)

Reminds me of this discussion of reaching the moon:

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/4uppo05fpc5w0c0/images/17-77601f4dfc.jpg

"We shall end up by arriving, I suppose."

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:27:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:27:39 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrnu-6mvwNg0c4WnCoUL_3jSUtzMhtSPH-UOnMR4ajYgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Oscar Benjamin
<oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard" unlike
> C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.

Disprove that by checking any job listing site in your area/industry.
You'll find plenty of Python jobs there.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 08:54:34 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 05:54:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <375c2f39-d867-4512-9776-e451281d8b98@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> Hi all,

> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.

1 Some Background
=================

  Early in my teaching career - 1988 -- I experienced what it means to
  switch from Pascal to Scheme to teach programming. And in 2002 I
  swtiched to using python.  I may talk a bit about this but before
  that?


2 Some Philosophical Context
============================

  Some years ago I read in a book (I think it was called "Heart of
  Philosophy") about the difference between 'ideas' and 'concepts.'
  Ideas are large vague touchy-feely things like freedom, love, justice
  etc; things that matter but poets deal with better than intellectuals.
  Concepts are the basic currency for an academic.  In a typical 1-hour
  class you deal with a few and in a lifetime you deal with thousands;
  in short they are a dime a dozen -- especially if you are an academic.

  And yet if you have a conscience you'd know that covering the concepts
  specified in a formal printed syllabus is cheating.  What really needs
  to be conveyed are a few ideas:
  - modular code
  - code invariants
  - abstractions
  - Syntax, semantics and the large grey in between which for want of a
    better word we may call 'structure'
  - Recursion much wider than people think
    see http://blog.languager.org/2012/05/recursion-pervasive-in-cs.html
  - Interpretation
    see http://blog.languager.org/2013/08/applying-si-on-sicp.html
  - Computable and non-computable
  - The meaning and significance of the word 'code'
  - (Even more vaguely) beautiful (and ugly) code

  Before reading on, I suggest you think what for a while what for you
  are important/core ideas and then what vehicles/mediums are
  conducive/obstructive to them.


3 My Prejudices
===============

  Historically I've been associated with functional programming. While I
  am not so passionate about it as when I was half my age. still I'd
  say:

  - FP *as a philosophy* collects a bunch of stuff -- technology,
    practices, culture -- that conduces to good programming even for
    kids who after the course never use FP *as a technology*
  
    See http://blog.languager.org/2012/10/functional-programming-lost-booty.html

  - By contrast OOP is mostly (at best) clerical common sense --
    organizing libraries to be easily searchable is better by data than
    by code.  At worst OOP is hogwash -- inheritance.

    And so?
  - Python which can be quite functional, imperative and object oriented
    has a rather special place.  Because it is object oriented you will
    be able to use it to silence those who are subscribed to that
    religion.  Because it is imperative you can write straightforward
    code -- 'scripts' -- without undue fanfare Because it is functional
    (well almost -- I have some beefs in this regard) you can use it as
    a vehicle to actually convey important *ideas* in short space and
    time

  - For me Lisp (closely followed by APL) are the ultimate in
    programming paradigms.  However they are not serious technology in
    2013. [Even the birthplace of Scheme -- MIT -- has switched to
    python]. And so in 2013 python occupies a sweet spot in the sense of
    being academically clean and realistically usable.

  - That said there are some important elements of FPLs, most notably a
    polymorphic type discipline, that are sorely missing from python.
    Unfortunately Haskell is much harder to teach/learn than python and
    with each new addition only gets harder.  So python remains even
    with its lacks, an academically sound language.

4 CS-Edu Writings
=================

   My CS-101 syllabus from the early 90s -- 
   uses gofer a predecessor of a predecessor of Haskell
   http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/ip.pdf

   Some more general CS-Edu related writings, containing strewn about
   "FP is a good idea"
   http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-1.html
   and following 2 posts

------
???? ????
["Rusi Mody" in devanagari so that GG will not use an obsolete charset]


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 11:57:29 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 08:57:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
> pain makes them better programmers in the end.

Yeah this will get some people's back up -- Atrocious! Preposterous! etc

Change the word 'pain' to 'taxing' 'hard' 'challenge' etc and there is much
truth in it.  Here is Joel Spolsky on why Java is a poor language for
this reason: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html


From wrw at mac.com  Mon Dec  9 12:55:41 2013
From: wrw at mac.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:55:41 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7614A493-7472-49DC-B4D7-CC1A8636B2C2@mac.com>

On Dec 9, 2013, at 11:57 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
>> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
>> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
>> pain makes them better programmers in the end.
> 
> Yeah this will get some people's back up -- Atrocious! Preposterous! etc
> 
> Change the word 'pain' to 'taxing' 'hard' 'challenge' etc and there is much
> truth in it.  Here is Joel Spolsky on why Java is a poor language for
> this reason: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

I'm not sure I agree with either of these points of view. Based on my own personal experience, there is an "Ah HA!" moment[*] when a student understands what it means to decompose a problem into a series of algorithmic steps - after that, the details of the particular programming language are just that, details.

Some students get that quickly and intuitively and some never get there, but that bit of fundamental understanding doesn't require either pain or (necessarily) hard work - it just requires adopting a way of approaching and thinking about problems, a mind-set.

-Bill
------------
* For me it came during a no-credit, no-cost, lunch-time course one of my college math teachers offered for anyone who was interested.  The year was 1963, we used McCracken's FORTRAN book as our text, and tested our programs over open weekends at Argonne National Lab, where they had an IBM 1620 they opened to classes like ours a couple of times a month.

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Dec 10 00:25:48 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:25:48 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>

> On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> 
>>5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
>>students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
>>pain makes them better programmers in the end.

That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't
let people use hammers, we should make them use rocks to
bang nails in, because it will make them better carpenters
in the long run.

-- 
Greg


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 00:55:32 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:55:32 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpDueL+gBVgyMnj4yvQ1KwnbHdqKhPxHRdHNxUE0CA9aQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>> On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
>>
>>> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
>>> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
>>> pain makes them better programmers in the end.
>
>
> That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't
> let people use hammers, we should make them use rocks to
> bang nails in, because it will make them better carpenters
> in the long run.

But in teaching woodwork you SHOULD let people use basic tools, and
not just a CNC lathe. Or in the most extreme sense, putting together
IKEA furniture is not carpentry, and neither is picking from an
extremely limited toolbox programming - which is why "Build a program
without writing a line of code" systems are junk for anything
complicated. (Occasionally, VERY occasionally, it's possible to use
the simple drag-and-drop system to get you 90% of the way, and then
fill in the rest yourself. Usually, you'll end up fighting the system
as soon as you do something the author didn't intend.)

Programming shouldn't be painful just for the sake of making it
painful. But you should be programming, not just solving a Sudoku
puzzle. It should be possible for a programmer to develop a unique
program that does a unique thing, and if that's beyond the scope of
the system, the system isn't a programming system. (Might still be a
useful system, of course, but it's not programming.)

ChrisA


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Dec 10 16:38:57 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:38:57 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3812.1386654941.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3812.1386654941.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bgpfvhFcfugU1@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> But in teaching woodwork you SHOULD let people use basic tools, and
> not just a CNC lathe.
> 
> Programming shouldn't be painful just for the sake of making it
> painful.

That's the only point I was trying to make. Pain in and
of itself doesn't help anyone to learn anything!

-- 
Greg


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 21:16:18 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 02:16:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l88hth$rrp$2@dont-email.me>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:35:47 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:25:48 +1300, Gregory Ewing
> <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> declaimed the following:

>>That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't let people
>>use hammers, we should make them use rocks to bang nails in, because it
>>will make them better carpenters in the long run.

> 	NAILS????
> 	Nails were verboten in my high school wood working class...
> 	We used dowels and glue; chisels to carve dove-tails; etc.

We were allowed to use screws, but they had to be brass, not steel, we 
had to drill appropriate clearance and pilot holes, and countersink where 
appropriate.

And god help you if you deformed the slot in a brass screw head by over 
tightening - I think that may have been why they made us use brass ones 
only, so that such damage was easier to spot and more likely to happen.

And yes, I can dovetail, mortise and tenon, dowel etc etc etc.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:08:46 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:08:46 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l88hth$rrp$2@dont-email.me>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l88hth$rrp$2@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY5_Tdv8HQVehdLdJmZefxeuo=nwiYtghm56NvJC5SijhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:35:47 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:25:48 +1300, Gregory Ewing
>> <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> declaimed the following:
>
>>>That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't let people
>>>use hammers, we should make them use rocks to bang nails in, because it
>>>will make them better carpenters in the long run.
>
>>       NAILS????
>>       Nails were verboten in my high school wood working class...
>>       We used dowels and glue; chisels to carve dove-tails; etc.
>
> We were allowed to use screws, but they had to be brass, not steel, we
> had to drill appropriate clearance and pilot holes, and countersink where
> appropriate.

Ohhhh we used to DREAM of using screws! We were given steel shafts and
had to tap the threads into them with our teeth.


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Wed Dec 11 10:05:10 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:05:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l89uv6$r92$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-11, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>>That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't
>>let people use hammers, we should make them use rocks to
>>bang nails in, because it will make them better carpenters
>>in the long run.
>
> 	NAILS????
>
> 	Nails were verboten in my high school wood working class... 
>
> 	We used dowels and glue; chisels to carve dove-tails; etc.

GLUE???

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! When this load is
                                  at               DONE I think I'll wash it
                              gmail.com            AGAIN ...


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 19:47:28 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:47:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 7:35:47 PM UTC-6, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> NAILS???? Nails were verboten in my high school wood
> working class... We used dowels and glue; chisels to carve
> dove-tails; etc.

That could be a result of two possibilities:

    1. Your high school years were before the great war, or:
    2. Your wood shop teacher was a Luddite, a sadist, or both!
    
FYI: Fastener technology has come a long way since the fall
of the of the "Amish empire". All that laborious joinery has
been surpassed by mass production of helical threads and
pneumatic drivers. What once took a "master craftsman" an
entire day to build could now be built by a novice in mere
minutes.

  Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
  they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.
  
When are we going to realize that the goal, *ahem*, OUR
GOAL, is to delegate minutiae DOWNWARDS, building the
collective knowledge base layer by layer...

    ABSTRACTIONS people, ABSTRACTIONS!!!

Because, when you've got all your mental focus attuned to
carving intricate inter-meshing teeth into dense hardwoods
using razor sharp hand tools, you will be unable to see the
big picture, and furthermore, you might slip and cut your
finger off!


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 16 20:06:06 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:06:06 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>

In article <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205 at googlegroups.com>,
 Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

>   Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
>   they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.

There is nothing more satisfying than cutting a set of dovetails by hand 
and having them glide together like silk, the first time you test-fit 
them, with no daylight visible anywhere.

Someday, mine will be like that :-)


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 20:25:25 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 01:25:25 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8o95h$5so$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 01:06, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205 at googlegroups.com>,
>   Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>    Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
>>    they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.
>
> There is nothing more satisfying than cutting a set of dovetails by hand
> and having them glide together like silk, the first time you test-fit
> them, with no daylight visible anywhere.
>
> Someday, mine will be like that :-)
>

I suspect that your manual skills are rather better than mine.  One of 
my favourite expressions, perhaps because I only ever heard my dad use 
it, is "like watching a cow handle a shotgun".

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 20:27:18 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:27:18 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8o95h$5so$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8o95h$5so$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqBmoVSdBiQ9ehnDT818X-zg7ZPhtN1CYEB+FLAZRrxWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I suspect that your manual skills are rather better than mine.  One of my
> favourite expressions, perhaps because I only ever heard my dad use it, is
> "like watching a cow handle a shotgun".

Heh. In D&D terms, I think that would be a DEX of 5 or 6. The average
for humans is 10-11, the average for adventurers is 12-13.

ChrisA


From gheskett at wdtv.com  Mon Dec 16 20:32:07 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:32:07 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8o95h$5so$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com> <l8o95h$5so$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <201312162032.08058.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Monday 16 December 2013 20:30:47 Mark Lawrence did opine:

> On 17/12/2013 01:06, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205 at googlegroups.com>,
> > 
> >   Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>    Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
> >>    they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.
> > 
> > There is nothing more satisfying than cutting a set of dovetails by
> > hand and having them glide together like silk, the first time you
> > test-fit them, with no daylight visible anywhere.
> > 
> > Someday, mine will be like that :-)
> 
> I suspect that your manual skills are rather better than mine.  One of
> my favourite expressions, perhaps because I only ever heard my dad use
> it, is "like watching a cow handle a shotgun".

I'll plead to using a jig, and figure I have a good fit when I have to 
drive it together with a deadblow hammer.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

IBM's original motto:
	Cogito ergo vendo; vendo ergo sum.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From cousinstanley at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 09:32:04 2013
From: cousinstanley at gmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 07:32:04 -0700
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.3859.1386725754.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b64dd8cc-a7b5-47d2-9fe6-d2bd6e432205@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8pna1$v7t$1@dont-email.me>


>> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
>>  they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.

> There is nothing more satisfying than cutting a set of dovetails by hand
> and having them glide together like silk, the first time you test-fit
> them, with no daylight visible anywhere.

   This dove-tailer understands Rapid Application Development ....

      http://woodwork.ars-informatica.ca/tool.php?art=dovetail_video
      Frank Klausz's three-minute dovetails using a bow saw

-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona 


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



From gheskett at wdtv.com  Tue Dec 17 12:27:35 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:27:35 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8pna1$v7t$1@dont-email.me>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-74AF41.20060616122013@news.panix.com> <l8pna1$v7t$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <201312171227.36028.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Tuesday 17 December 2013 12:23:28 Cousin Stanley did opine:

> >> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>  Dovetails are nothing more than sadistic nostalgia --
> >>  they give old men a "chubby" and young men a nightmare.
> > 
> > There is nothing more satisfying than cutting a set of dovetails by
> > hand and having them glide together like silk, the first time you
> > test-fit them, with no daylight visible anywhere.
> 
>    This dove-tailer understands Rapid Application Development ....
> 
>       http://woodwork.ars-informatica.ca/tool.php?art=dovetail_video
>       Frank Klausz's three-minute dovetails using a bow saw

Frank is a Master, and too many people never really learn to use a bow saw.  
However I'd expect that joint would take more glue to fill, I've had a 
single drop of TB-III extrude from every edge of one of my jig made joints.

But, I really think we are just a tad off topic.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

UNIX is hot.  It's more than hot.  It's steaming.  It's quicksilver
lightning with a laserbeam kicker.
		-- Michael Jay Tucker
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Dec 11 10:46:28 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:46:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <889721b4-a980-4205-9b1d-a1bedadd7eb3@googlegroups.com>
 <bgnmurFc5bU1@mid.individual.net>
 <d7gfa9pkakj8d93nqun5gv1gj7quh1j3gu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l8a1ck$mta$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-11, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:25:48 +1300, Gregory Ewing
><greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> declaimed the following:
>>> On Monday, December 9, 2013 5:53:41 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
>>>>5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should
>>>>expect the students to complain about it (someone actually
>>>>said that!) but the pain makes them better programmers in the
>>>>end.
>>
>>That's like saying that when teaching woodwork we shouldn't let
>>people use hammers, we should make them use rocks to bang nails
>>in, because it will make them better carpenters in the long
>>run.
>
> 	NAILS????
>
> 	Nails were verboten in my high school wood working class... 
>
> 	We used dowels and glue; chisels to carve dove-tails; etc.

...

You lucky BASTARD!

We had to build bookcases out of banana leaves held together with
our own spittle.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 18:32:12 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 23:32:12 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <op.w7umbykna8ncjz@gnudebeest>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 12:23:41 -0000, Oscar Benjamin  
<oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Some of the objections to the idea that were voiced in the meeting were  
> that:
> 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard" unlike
> C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.
> 2) Students should learn to program in a statically typed language
> because it leads to good programming discipline.
> 3) Python is too close to Matlab (which is considered essential for
> some industries our students often go in to).
> 4) It is better for students to be introduced to programming with a
> low-level language so that they gain a better understanding of how
> computers "really work".
> 5) Learning to program "should be painful" and we should expect the
> students to complain about it (someone actually said that!) but the
> pain makes them better programmers in the end.

I have taught Python as a first language to 12-15 year old kids, and for  
their purposes (learning how to get computers to do stuff) it was just  
fine.  In particular, it reads easily (as long as you steer clear of funny  
stuff like decorators and metaclasses), so our students found it easier to  
explain to themselves what examples did without all the unusual (in  
English) punctuation getting in the way.

While your students aren't 12-15 year olds, it sounds rather like what you  
want to give them is very similar.  Unlike Computer Science students, they  
don't need to know how computers "really work" (except in the limited  
sense of floating point arithmetic, which is going to give them headaches  
however you introduce it).  What they need is confidence in manipulating  
data and algorithms, and Python's a perfectly good choice for that.

For contrast, my CS degree of >mumble< years antiquity threw a lot of  
different languages at us, usually in pairs, to illustrate different  
concepts.  6502 assembler showed us the basics of how a computer works,  
while System/370 assembler showed how horribly complex those basics can  
get; Pascal and BCPL contrasted rigid typing with practically non-existent  
typing (something Modula-2 and C didn't do nearly as well); and so on and  
so forth.  None of this is stuff your students need for their work, so I  
wouldn't waste time side-tracking them with it.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  9 18:42:14 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 18:42:14 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <op.w7umbykna8ncjz@gnudebeest>
Message-ID: <roy-423ADC.18421409122013@news.panix.com>

In article <op.w7umbykna8ncjz at gnudebeest>,
 "Rhodri James" <rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Pascal and BCPL contrasted rigid typing with practically non-existent  
> typing

Wow, you actually used BCPL?  I didn't realize the language ever had any 
real use.  I had only ever heard of it in the context of being a C 
precursor, mentioned once in an introduction of a paper and never heard 
from again.


From rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 19:00:29 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 00:00:29 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <op.w7umbykna8ncjz@gnudebeest> <roy-423ADC.18421409122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <op.w7unm313a8ncjz@gnudebeest>

On Mon, 09 Dec 2013 23:42:14 -0000, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> In article <op.w7umbykna8ncjz at gnudebeest>,
>  "Rhodri James" <rhodri at wildebst.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Pascal and BCPL contrasted rigid typing with practically non-existent
>> typing
>
> Wow, you actually used BCPL?  I didn't realize the language ever had any
> real use.  I had only ever heard of it in the context of being a C
> precursor, mentioned once in an introduction of a paper and never heard
> from again.

It probably wasn't an accident that Martin Richards was the lecturer :-)   
Seriously, though, it was an excellent teaching language, and a slightly  
bastardized version of the compiler was readily available on the communal  
BBC Micros.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 12 15:36:02 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:36:02 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>

> I'm particularly interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> switching to teaching Python as a first programming language in a
> similar context. A written up case study that I could circulate among
> the relevant staff would be especially useful.

Just one experience from the "other" (student's) side.

When I started to study engineering science in 1991, Pascal was the
"first language" at the university in question (there were no
programming classes at highschool over here at that time yet). The class
was quite motivating and taught me some essential basics, I think.
Although issues such as object-orientation or event-based (GUI)
programming were not even mentioned, which is something that I'm
desperately missing today.

When I went to a different university (in 1993), still in engineering
science, they used C as the "first language" in the class there. The
result was that I tried (and succeeded) to pass that class with the
strict minimum of effort possible and deliberately forgot everything
that I had to learn about C as quickly as possible afterwards. I was a
"very good" student back then otherwise, so this was not due to
general laziness. What that class has taught me, essentially, was to
*hate* C. And it was not an issue of bad teachers. And they didn't mean
to make me hate C, after all, it was them who had chosen that language.
I never ever used C for anything (outside of that class). And ever
after that experience, I avoided all languages that were even remotely
similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP etc.

In numerics classes and for research projects, I had to learn and use
Fortran, which was easy after the introduction with Pascal. The
teachers who taught me Fortran easily were the same as those who made me
hate C. 

Then, I accidentally got in touch with Python (in 1994 iirc) and
thought it was interesting and useful. In fact Python is the only
programming language that I ever learned without being obliged to do
so. And the only one that I keep using whenever I have the choice.

Since then, the university that once used C as a "first language"
has switched to Python. Which is a good thing, imho. If I had had to
learn the basics of programming with C instead of Pascal, I most
certainly would have avoided anything even remotely connected to
programming ever since, even "office automation" through scripting
(which is what I use Python for today).

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:12:46 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:12:46 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo7k5D94_rYU3dB_YRnaU0eaPk7AaQiyBWW5deRCZA_fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
> And ever
> after that experience, I avoided all languages that were even remotely
> similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP etc.

I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
that terrible. You might prefer Python syntax to it, but it's
undeniably better than several of its predecessors (I do not want to
write in COBOL, tyvm!), and there are recent languages that manage to
get some things so crazily backward (like abolishing operator
precedence so 2 + 3 * 4 = 24 not 14) that I wouldn't want to use them.
And secondly, C is very much the language of Unix. Sure, its best job
is implementing high level languages so day-to-day code doesn't need
to use it, but it's still important when you need to get to some
lower-level facilities. For those two reasons, I think a basic working
knowledge of C is useful for working with computers, networking,
pretty much everything these days. It won't break your brain to
understand multiple styles, and it might help you to remember why it
is you love Python syntax so much :)

Last time I had to do some C work, I was reminded just how amazingly
convenient a high-level string class is... all I wanted to do was
concatenate a bunch of strings with spaces between them, and I had to
go through so many hoops!

" ".join(list_of_strings)

Et voila.

ChrisA


From feliphil at gmx.net  Mon Dec 16 15:32:25 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:32:25 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>

> > And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
> > even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
> > etc.
> 
> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
> that terrible.

It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.

It's just an un-language that gets at about everything wrong. Sort of
like Microsoft's products.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang



From rhodri at wildebst.org.uk  Mon Dec 16 18:01:50 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.org.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:01:50 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <op.w77jlcv95079vu@gnudebeest>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:32:25 -0000, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net>  
wrote:

>> > And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
>> > even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
>> > etc.
>>
>> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
>> that terrible.
>
> It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
> about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.

It's an excellent macro assembler, so of course it's not made for human  
beings.  Unfortunately the software development took one look at it and  
exclaimed, "It's a hammer, all our problems must be nails!"  And the rest  
is C++.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 16 19:28:12 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:28:12 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <l8o5qg$4lq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/13 3:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>> And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
>>> even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
>>> etc.
>>
>> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
>> that terrible.
>
> It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
> about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.

I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax do 
you like, out of curiosity?

>
> It's just an un-language that gets at about everything wrong. Sort of
> like Microsoft's products.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang
>


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 19:39:14 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:39:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:58:12 AM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/16/13 3:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> >>> And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
> >>> even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
> >>> etc.
> >> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
> >> that terrible.
> > It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
> > about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.

> I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax do 
> you like, out of curiosity?

I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf

I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for
- beginner education (CS101)
- intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc
- professional software engineering

are all almost completely unrelated


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 19:44:59 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:44:59 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqxuhtVojMeM20BYZGqs=r0kM8ERXXSibducdRRO-wgGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:39 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
> http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf
>
> I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for
> - beginner education (CS101)
> - intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc
> - professional software engineering
>
> are all almost completely unrelated

Yes. In esr's essay on becoming a hacker[1] he says:

"""There is perhaps a more general point here. If a language does too
much for you, it may be simultaneously a good tool for production and
a bad one for learning."""

Definitely true, though I think it has exceptions.

[1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 20:58:44 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:58:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4244.1387241110.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4244.1387241110.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <69ec140f-700b-4155-a5cc-5053dd7b91a3@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 6:14:59 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:39 AM, rusi wrote:
> > I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
> > http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf
> > I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for
> > - beginner education (CS101)
> > - intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc
> > - professional software engineering
> > are all almost completely unrelated

> Yes. In esr's essay on becoming a hacker[1] he says:

> """There is perhaps a more general point here. If a language does too
> much for you, it may be simultaneously a good tool for production and
> a bad one for learning."""

There is this principle by Buchberger called the "Black-box White-box
principle" 
Unfortunately I can only find mathematicians talking about it
http://www.math.rutgers.edu/~zeilberg/Opinion65.html
and no CS-ists/programmers.

eg
To teach OS, minix is better than linux
To use, linux is better
FreeBSD may be a good middle point. It may also be a bad middle point --
practically too hard to use or study.  Which is why in practice separating
teaching tools from professional ones is better than thrashing about using
the same for both

> Definitely true, though I think it has exceptions.

> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

Yeah As esr says python is an exception
And even here as it progresses it becomes more professional and less educational


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 16 21:33:11 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 02:33:11 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:39:14 -0800, rusi wrote:

> I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach
> with* http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf


Nice paper! I have a few quibbles with it, but overall I think it is very 
good.


> I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for -
> beginner education (CS101)
> - intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc - professional software
> engineering
> 
> are all almost completely unrelated

I do not believe that they are "almost" unrelated. I think that, in 
general, there is a very high correlation between languages which are 
easy to use correctly and languages which are easy to learn. (Not the 
other way around -- languages which are easy to learn may only be so 
because you can't do much with them.)

If your aim is to challenge yourself, as the hacker ethos often leads to, 
then C is an excellent language to learn because both *learning* and 
*using* the language is a challenge. If you just want to write a program 
which works correctly with as little fuss as possible, you surely 
wouldn't choose C unless it was the only language you knew.

There are many reasons why languages fail to become popular among hackers 
(PHP and Flash are too d?class?, being used by *cough spit* web 
developers; Java is for people who wear suits and ties; Forth is, well 
Forth is just too weird even for hackers who like Lisp, Scheme, or 
Haskell). But the popular old-school hacker languages like Perl, Lisp and 
C have three things in common:

- they grew organically, and so have little in the way of design 
constraints (apart from the most fundamental, which the average 
programmer doesn't even recognise as a constraint -- see the Blub 
paradox);

- they are powerful and can do (nearly) anything, with sufficient hard 
work;

- and they are challenging to use.

That last one is, I believe, the key. Nothing will get hackers and 
programmers sneering at a language as being "a toy" or "not a real 
language" if it makes programming too easy, particularly if there are 
performance or functionality costs to such ease of use.

I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs per program 
written in different languages. I expect that, for all we like to make 
fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per unit-of-useful-work-done than 
the equivalent written in C.

Of course, this is very hard to measure: different languages require 
different amounts of code to get something useful done. Different 
languages get used for different things -- there are no operating system 
kernels written in COBOL, although there are plenty of business apps 
written in C. There are vast differences in software methodologies. But I 
think that people intuitively grasp that if something is hard to learn, 
as C is, chances are very good that it is equally hard to use even for 
experts. Why do you think that C programs often have so many bugs and 
vulnerabilities, such as buffer overflows and the like? It's not just 
down to lousy coders.

In your paper, you quote Meyer:

    I knew that the bulk of the student's time was spent fighting 
    tricky pointer arithmetic, chasing memory allocation bugs, 
    trying to figure out whether an argument was a structure or a
    pointer, making sure the number of asterisks was right, and so
    on?

It's not just students who have to do all these things. They may become 
easier with experience, but "someone who chases memory allocation bugs" 
is practically the definition of a C programmer.

Good C programmers are good in spite of C, not because of it.

Languages like C, which lack clean design and semantics, means the 
programmer has to memorise a lot of special cases in order to become 
expert. People who would otherwise make excellent programmers except for 
their difficulty memorising special cases will make poor C coders -- they 
will always be fighting the language. Or they will learn just a small 
subset of the language, and always use that. If the compiler is efficient 
enough, as C compilers typically are, you'll never know from the 
performance that it was written poorly or non-idiomatically.



-- 
Steven


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 23:41:14 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:41:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <96b650e1-a721-431f-a90c-5a7281c604c0@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 8:33:11 PM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Of course, this is very hard to measure: different languages require
> different amounts of code to get something useful done. Different
> languages get used for different things -- there are no operating system
> kernels written in COBOL, although there are plenty of business apps
> written in C. There are vast differences in software methodologies. But I
> think that people intuitively grasp that if something is hard to learn,
> as C is, chances are very good that it is equally hard to use even for
> experts. Why do you think that C programs often have so many bugs and
> vulnerabilities, such as buffer overflows and the like? It's not just
> down to lousy coders.

I have a real life example of such horrendous design flaws
involving a highway intersection. A while back, can't
remember when, a friend of mine was involved in an accident
that was his fault. This surprised me because i consider
this person to be a very cautious driver.

After checking records, i was amazed to find a high
occurrence of traffic incidents that mirror the exact
conditions of my friends accident, and in almost every
incident, the person at fault runs the thru the red light.

This seemed odd because how could so many people be making
the same mistake? The sheer number of signal violations
would exclude malevolent intentions.

So being the curious chap i am, i investigated further. I
myself traveled the course my friend took the day of the
fateful accident.

The course involves starting from a traffic signal on one
side of the freeway, following a long left turn lane under
the freeway, and then emerging on the other side to cross the
opposing feeder road -- it is a this point that the
accidents happen with great frequency!

There are two distinct design flaws contributing:

  1. The bridge itself is obscuring the view of the
  second signal. The second signal is not visible until
  the motorist are very close -- much too close in my
  opinion!

But i feel #2 is the *real* contributing factor!

  2. The second signal and the first signal are not
  synchronized, creating an inconsistency between both
  signals. For example, sometimes you can catch both
  lights green, but sometimes, the second light will
  change unexpectedly whilst you're navigating the long
  left turn, THUS requiring all traffic to stop under the
  freeway before crossing the opposing feeder road.

  ...and the results of this poor design are resulting
  in injuries on a regular basis!!!

The problem is, sometimes people don't stop. Sometimes they
simply "assume" that the light will be green because
stopping under a bridge does not "feel" normal. Of course
they must accept the blame for not being more alert,
however, at what point does the fallibility of humans excuse
poor interface design?

Humans are by nature INCAPABLE of maintaining perfect
alertness, and driving requires more processing than the
human mind can possibly muster. Your mind is constantly
attempting to "predict the future" outcome of current
events, and it is this unconsciousness mechanism that, when
overloaded, will force the less acute modality of intuition
to propagate up and take full control.

It is for that very reason that we must design interfaces
with the fallibility of human operators in mind -- at least
until we can remove the human from the equation.

We MUST strive to achieve the highest level of
intuitiveness whilst eliminating any and all inconsistencies
from the system.


From neilc at norwich.edu  Tue Dec 17 09:51:39 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:51:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8podr$nk4$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs
> per program written in different languages. I expect that, for
> all we like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
> unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.

I can't think of a reference, but I to recall that
bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language
dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done
in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount of
work done.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 17 09:54:41 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:54:41 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:

> On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs
> > per program written in different languages. I expect that, for
> > all we like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
> > unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.

Well, there was that little Y2K thing...


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 10:07:47 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:07:47 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8ppbq$g1r$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 14:54, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs
>>> per program written in different languages. I expect that, for
>>> all we like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
>>> unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.
>
> Well, there was that little Y2K thing...
>

Design assumption made 30 to 40 years earlier "It'll only have to be in 
the field for six months" :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 10:24:25 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 15:24:25 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52b06ca9$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:54:41 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> > I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs per
>> > program written in different languages. I expect that, for all we
>> > like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
>> > unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.
> 
> Well, there was that little Y2K thing...

Oh come on, how were people in the 1990s supposed to predict that they 
would be followed by the year 2000???

That's a good point, but that wasn't a language issue, it was a program 
design issue. Back in the 70s and 80s, when saving two digits per date 
field seemed to be a sensible thing to do, people simply didn't imagine 
that their programs would still be used in the year 1999[1]. That's not 
the same sort of bug as (say) C buffer overflows, or SQL code injection 
attacks. It's not like the COBOL language defined dates as having only 
two digits.




[1] What gets me is that even in the year 1999, there were still 
programmers writing code that assumed two-digit years. I have it on good 
authority from somebody working as an external consultant for a bank in 
1999 that he spent most of 1998 and 1999 fixing *brand new code* written 
by the bank's own staff. You'd think that having lived through that 
experience would have shaken his belief that private enterprise does 
everything better, and the bigger the corporation the better they do it, 
but apparently not. Go figure.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 10:35:27 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:35:27 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b06ca9$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b06ca9$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8pqvm$5kg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 15:24, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:54:41 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> In article <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>>   Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano
>>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>>> I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs per
>>>> program written in different languages. I expect that, for all we
>>>> like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
>>>> unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.
>>
>> Well, there was that little Y2K thing...
>
> Oh come on, how were people in the 1990s supposed to predict that they
> would be followed by the year 2000???
>
> That's a good point, but that wasn't a language issue, it was a program
> design issue. Back in the 70s and 80s, when saving two digits per date
> field seemed to be a sensible thing to do, people simply didn't imagine
> that their programs would still be used in the year 1999[1]. That's not
> the same sort of bug as (say) C buffer overflows, or SQL code injection
> attacks. It's not like the COBOL language defined dates as having only
> two digits.
>
>
>
>
> [1] What gets me is that even in the year 1999, there were still
> programmers writing code that assumed two-digit years. I have it on good
> authority from somebody working as an external consultant for a bank in
> 1999 that he spent most of 1998 and 1999 fixing *brand new code* written
> by the bank's own staff. You'd think that having lived through that
> experience would have shaken his belief that private enterprise does
> everything better, and the bigger the corporation the better they do it,
> but apparently not. Go figure.
>
>

I was in charge of the team at work that had to make all code Y2K 
compliant.  I discovered the one bug that to my knowledge slipped 
through the net.  Four years later back at the same place on contract I 
fixed the fix!!!

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From larry.martell at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 11:21:07 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:21:07 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8pqvm$5kg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CA94BF.09544017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b06ca9$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8pqvm$5kg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY4SQxTMN24HGvoGX1aB=D0QPtuB5OEeojZ0sFnDLMKNjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I was in charge of the team at work that had to make all code Y2K compliant.
> I discovered the one bug that to my knowledge slipped through the net.  Four
> years later back at the same place on contract I fixed the fix!!!

>From around 1997 till 2000 all I did was fix Y2K bugs. I'm pretty sure
I got them all. For one client I fixed well over 200. After the new
year came and nothing broke, the owner of the company said "You made
such a big deal about this Y2K stuff, and it turned out not to be a
problem at all."


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 11:56:32 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:56:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4293.1387297275.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
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 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
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On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:51:07 PM UTC+5:30, Larry.... at gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> > I was in charge of the team at work that had to make all code Y2K compliant.
> > I discovered the one bug that to my knowledge slipped through the net.  Four
> > years later back at the same place on contract I fixed the fix!!!

> > From around 1997 till 2000 all I did was fix Y2K bugs. I'm pretty
> > sure I got them all. For one client I fixed well over 200. After
> > the new > year came and nothing broke, the owner of the company
> > said "You made > such a big deal about this Y2K stuff, and it
> > turned out not to be a > problem at all."

Hahaha -- Very funny and serious.  Ive been actually experienced being
kicked out of job for writing decent working code and not making a big
deal of it.

Comes back the start of the thread -- What do we teach students?
Should we teach how to write the best possible code and as effortlessly
as possible?  Or should we also teach how to make a fuss, how to pretend
to (over)work while actually (under)delivering?

In a Utopia this would not be a question at all.
But we dont live in Utopia...

[And there are languages WAY better than C... C++ for example]


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:03:08 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:03:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2733a35e-a9c9-44c2-a29c-1d8c252c2159@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:39 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-12-17, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > I would really like to see good quality statistics about bugs
> > per program written in different languages. I expect that, for
> > all we like to make fun of COBOL, it probably has few bugs per
> > unit-of-useful-work-done than the equivalent written in C.

> I can't think of a reference, but I to recall that
> bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language
> dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done
> in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount of
> work done.

Enter the (One-Liner) Dragon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:20:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:20:40 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <2733a35e-a9c9-44c2-a29c-1d8c252c2159@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2733a35e-a9c9-44c2-a29c-1d8c252c2159@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqQsb5akazZc6yCAPFGZKirKcY3tc_QQH0OmUjOwxUApA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:03 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:39 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> I can't think of a reference, but I to recall that
>> bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language
>> dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done
>> in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount of
>> work done.
>
> Enter the (One-Liner) Dragon!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4

Some languages work differently with lines, cramming more onto a
single line while still having more "code". What's nearly constant is
bugs per "amount of code", except that it's practically impossible to
measure how much code you've produced. So there are a few exceptions
to the "lines of code" metric, a few languages that jump around a bit
on the scale.

ChrisA


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:39:23 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:39:23 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqQsb5akazZc6yCAPFGZKirKcY3tc_QQH0OmUjOwxUApA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4286.1387291924.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2733a35e-a9c9-44c2-a29c-1d8c252c2159@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqQsb5akazZc6yCAPFGZKirKcY3tc_QQH0OmUjOwxUApA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+waFvEXt8XDgz8spK5kby3iC67oY2ALoyrjq4x4sUbeSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:03 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:39 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> >> I can't think of a reference, but I to recall that
> >> bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language
> >> dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done
> >> in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount of
> >> work done.
> >
>
If its true that bugs per line of code is more or less a constant, I think
the key is that some languages are more expressive than others.  So, in
assembler, you are moving data around registers, and doing basic math,
etc.  It takes a lot of code to get something done.  So maybe more bugs.
Moving up the ladder to C, which is in a way high level assembly language,
you get more done in few lines.  Python or other languages maybe do more
per line than C  (eg the for loop in python does a lot with very little
code because of python having iterable stuff built in)  So, if you have a
language that is expressive and fits your programming needs, you will have
less to debug -- not because you don't make as many errors, but the good
code just does more for you


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 06:12:07 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:12:07 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxQc0OOLkFRkz1Dxf=Xt1YeA8WosAyNwS6pD4d-0TTK1YQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2013 00:39, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:58:12 AM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/16/13 3:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> >>> And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
>> >>> even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
>> >>> etc.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Wolfgang. I think many of my
students have a similar experience after learning C and it is
interesting to hear it from your perspective many years later.

I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).

>> >> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
>> >> that terrible.
>>
>> > It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
>> > about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.
>
>> I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax do
>> you like, out of curiosity?
>
> I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
> http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf

Thanks for this Rusi, I just read it and it describes very well what I
think about our own C course. My choice quote from the beginning would
be "When the irrelevant becomes significant, the essentials become
obscured and incomprehensible."

(BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?)

As a case in point one of my tutees asked for help with his C
assignment last week. I looked at his code and it was a complete mess.
I explained roughly what it should look like and he explained that he
had had so much trouble figuring out how to get the compiler to pass a
pair of strings into a function that he had given up and used global
variables instead. He's just not ready yet to get an intuitive
understanding of where to put the asterisks in order to make it work -
and as you point out in that paper the rules for where the asterisks
go are hopelessly inconsistent.

A couple of weeks before, another of my tutees brought their
assignment which was about dynamic memory allocation (~7 weeks into
her first programming course). She had just written something like
   char *x = (char*)malloc(31*sizeof(char));
for a global x at the top of the file. So the message about dynamic
memory allocation was entirely lost in the details of C: "dynamic
memory allocation means using malloc".

These types of problems are compounded by the fact that the current C
course uses automated marking so a program that produces the correct
output gets full marks even if it is terribly written and the student
entirely misses the point - another thing about this course that
definitely needs to change.

> I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for
> - beginner education (CS101)
> - intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc
> - professional software engineering
>
> are all almost completely unrelated

Agreed.


Oscar


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 09:10:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:10:22 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxQc0OOLkFRkz1Dxf=Xt1YeA8WosAyNwS6pD4d-0TTK1YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <CAHVvXxQc0OOLkFRkz1Dxf=Xt1YeA8WosAyNwS6pD4d-0TTK1YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr-DksTs=cp39O48BkUqdaX1Vd_D0a_86Z30mqE186eig@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Oscar Benjamin
<oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).

Student cheats on assignment and gets, in effect, a fraudulent
certification. (Piece of paper claims competence, competence doesn't
exist.) Graduating student shows certification to employer. Employer
hires ex-student, because employer doesn't know good code from bad
(hence hiring someone). Ex-student writes a pile of junk, then leaves
for a better opportunity. Real programmer is hired, or seconded from
another project, to fix a few small issues in ex-student's code.
Lunatic asylum gains another patient.

It's all too common. I'd like to tell people that they're only
cheating themselves, but the trouble is, they're cheating other people
a lot more.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 07:18:10 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 12:18:10 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b04102$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:12:07 +0000, Oscar Benjamin wrote:

> These types of problems are compounded by the fact that the current C
> course uses automated marking so a program that produces the correct
> output gets full marks even if it is terribly written and the student
> entirely misses the point

This suggests that even the lecturers can't read C, and so have got one 
of their post-grad students to write an automated tester so they don't 
have to.

Only-half-joking-ly y'rs, 


-- 
Steven


From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:51:44 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:51:44 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>

> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).

The problem with the C class wasn't that it was "hard". I had passed my
Pascal class, which taught nearly exactly the same issues with
"straight A"s before (without ever having writeen any source code ever
before). And by standard cognitive testing standards, I'm not exactly
considered to be an idiot.

The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
university.

C is just a kafkaesque mess invented by a sadistic pervert who must
have regularly consumed illegal substances for breakfast. Its only
reason to exist seems to be that apparently it's ridiculously easy to
implement a "compiler" for it. Although, as a professional developer
once told me, most C compilers are garbage.

One student in the C class (who had been doing software development for
years before he came to university) jokingly passed around samples of
"valid" C code by email. Most of them looked like uuencoded binaries
(this was in the early-to-mid 90s), but they all compiled and produced
an output. Except that *no one* (including professors) was able to
predict the output without actually running the compiled code.

In the classroom lectures parallel to the C exercises, the professor
spent most of his time explaining what *not* to do because... Heck, why
does a language provide features resp. allow their use in ways that are
known to be bottomless cans of worms.

> These types of problems are compounded by the fact that the current C
> course uses automated marking so a program that produces the correct
> output gets full marks even if it is terribly written and the student
> entirely misses the point - another thing about this course that
> definitely needs to change.

In our classes, when a program was correct, but e.g. you used just *one*
single non-semantic identifier (such as an "i" for a loop index), you
got *automatically* zero points for that exercise. Other absolutely
mandatory requirements were about minimum commenting etc. Less comment
lines than code was very likely to yield zero points for that exercise
as well.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Tue Dec 17 11:59:01 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:59:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-17, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:

>> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
>> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
>> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
>> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
>> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
>> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).
>
> The problem with the C class wasn't that it was "hard". I had passed my
> Pascal class, which taught nearly exactly the same issues with
> "straight A"s before (without ever having writeen any source code ever
> before). And by standard cognitive testing standards, I'm not exactly
> considered to be an idiot.

I agree that C is a awful pedagogical language.  When I was in
university, the first language for Computer Science or Computer
Engineering students was Pascal.  After that, there were classes that
surveyed Prolog, SNOBOL, LISP, Modula, APL, FORTRAN, COBOL, etc.  If
you were an "other" engineering/science major, you learned FORTRAN
first (and last).  I think there may also have been some business
types who were taught BASIC.

C wasn't taught at all.  When I graduated and started doing real-time
embedded firmware, the choices were Generally C or Pascal.  The first
projects I did were in Pascal, but I learned C because the development
host was a PDP-11 running Unix and I needed to write some small (non
embedded) utilities.  Today, all my embedded work is in C.  Python
fell out of style for some reason, but (with a few extensions) it was
a fine language for embedded work as well.

I've always thought C was a great language for low-level, bare-metal,
embedded stuff -- but teaching it to first or second year computer
science students is just insane.  C has a certain minimalist
orthogonality that I have always found pleasing.  [People who smile
wistfully when they think about the PDP-11 instruction word layouts
probably know what I mean.]

But, exposure to C should wait until you have a firm grasp of basic
algorithms and data structures and are proficient in assembly language
for a couple different architectures.  Ideally, you should also have
written at least one functioning compiler before learning C as well.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Maybe we could paint
                                  at               GOLDIE HAWN a rich PRUSSIAN
                              gmail.com            BLUE --


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:18:13 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:18:13 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY5uuPhLWpz9L=sFGpCYPjVTswr5jm_zwqp+6hHt6Wa1Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2013-12-17, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
>>> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
>>> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
>>> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
>>> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
>>> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).

I did that, but my fee was a case of beer.

>>
>> The problem with the C class wasn't that it was "hard". I had passed my
>> Pascal class, which taught nearly exactly the same issues with
>> "straight A"s before (without ever having writeen any source code ever
>> before). And by standard cognitive testing standards, I'm not exactly
>> considered to be an idiot.
>
> I agree that C is a awful pedagogical language.  When I was in
> university, the first language for Computer Science or Computer
> Engineering students was Pascal.  After that, there were classes that
> surveyed Prolog, SNOBOL, LISP, Modula, APL, FORTRAN, COBOL, etc.  If
> you were an "other" engineering/science major, you learned FORTRAN
> first (and last).  I think there may also have been some business
> types who were taught BASIC.
>
> C wasn't taught at all.

It wasn't for me either when I went to college in the late 1970's.
Pascal first, then FORTRAN, then IBM 360 assembler. That was all the
formal language training I had. (I had taught myself BASIC in high
school.)


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 12:24:32 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:24:32 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CACwCsY5uuPhLWpz9L=sFGpCYPjVTswr5jm_zwqp+6hHt6Wa1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CACwCsY5uuPhLWpz9L=sFGpCYPjVTswr5jm_zwqp+6hHt6Wa1Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8q1c7$npf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 17:18, Larry Martell wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2013-12-17, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
>>>> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
>>>> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
>>>> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
>>>> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
>>>> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).
>
> I did that, but my fee was a case of beer.
>

Pay bottle get monkey?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 12:44:55 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:44:55 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8q2ie$6hp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 16:59, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
> I've always thought C was a great language for low-level, bare-metal,
> embedded stuff -- but teaching it to first or second year computer
> science students is just insane.  C has a certain minimalist
> orthogonality that I have always found pleasing.  [People who smile
> wistfully when they think about the PDP-11 instruction word layouts
> probably know what I mean.]

I agree with you here, but wasn't there a tie-in between C and the rise 
of Unix via universities, or am I barking in the wrong forest?

>
> But, exposure to C should wait until you have a firm grasp of basic
> algorithms and data structures and are proficient in assembly language
> for a couple different architectures.  Ideally, you should also have
> written at least one functioning compiler before learning C as well.
>

I never had a problem with C as I'd written assembler for RCA 1802, 
Ferranti F110L and DEC/VAX, plus CORAL 66.  Hum, a bit of a fib there, I 
recall vainly struggling with a C for loop before I finally realised I'd 
effectively written a CORAL 66 one, page 50 here 
http://www.xgc.com/manuals/pdf/xgc-c66-rm.pdf for (ouch!!!) anyone who's 
interested.  Using a Whitesmith's pre-ANSI C compiler didn't exactly 
help me either.   IIRC printf was spelt format and all the formatting 
codes were different to what became standard C.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From invalid at invalid.invalid  Tue Dec 17 14:38:27 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:38:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4300.1387302312.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8q97j$95d$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-17, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/12/2013 16:59, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> I've always thought C was a great language for low-level, bare-metal,
>> embedded stuff -- but teaching it to first or second year computer
>> science students is just insane.  C has a certain minimalist
>> orthogonality that I have always found pleasing.  [People who smile
>> wistfully when they think about the PDP-11 instruction word layouts
>> probably know what I mean.]
>
> I agree with you here, but wasn't there a tie-in between C and the rise 
> of Unix via universities, or am I barking in the wrong forest?

Yes, I think the popularity of Unix on university campuses is what
caused the migration from Pascal to C for freshman programming
classes.  IIRC, there were decent Pascal compilers for Unix back then,
so I still think it was a big mistake.  Later on when studying low
level OS stuff would have been a fine time to introduce C if required
for logistical reasons.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Vote for ME -- I'm
                                  at               well-tapered, half-cocked,
                              gmail.com            ill-conceived and
                                                   TAX-DEFERRED!


From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 17 19:39:29 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:39:29 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>

In article <l8pvsl$60h$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Ideally, you should also have written at least one functioning 
> compiler before learning C as well.

Why?  I've never written a compiler.  I've written plenty of C.  I don't 
see how my lack of compiler writing experience has hindered my ability 
to write C.


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Wed Dec 18 13:05:01 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:05:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-18, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <l8pvsl$60h$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Ideally, you should also have written at least one functioning 
>> compiler before learning C as well.
>
> Why?  I've never written a compiler.  I've written plenty of C.  I don't 
> see how my lack of compiler writing experience has hindered my ability 
> to write C.

I've always felt that there are features in C that don't make a lot of
sense until you've actually implemented a compiler -- at which point
it becomes a lot more obvious why some thing are done certain ways.

Maybe that's just me. I had written a compiler before I learned C, and
there were things that made perfect sense to me that seemed to confuse
others I worked with who were learning C at the same time.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! It's a hole all the
                                  at               way to downtown Burbank!
                              gmail.com            


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 13:17:56 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:17:56 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8sosc$fmt$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 18:05, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-18, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <l8pvsl$60h$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
>>   Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Ideally, you should also have written at least one functioning
>>> compiler before learning C as well.
>>
>> Why?  I've never written a compiler.  I've written plenty of C.  I don't
>> see how my lack of compiler writing experience has hindered my ability
>> to write C.
>
> I've always felt that there are features in C that don't make a lot of
> sense until you've actually implemented a compiler -- at which point
> it becomes a lot more obvious why some thing are done certain ways.
>
> Maybe that's just me. I had written a compiler before I learned C, and
> there were things that made perfect sense to me that seemed to confuse
> others I worked with who were learning C at the same time.
>

I've never contemplated writing a compiler, let alone actually written 
one.  It's like the comments along the lines of "you can't call yourself 
a programmer until you've mastered regular expressions".  Some of my 
mates who work on air traffic management systems have maybe never heard 
of a regex but who cares, I certainly don't.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 18 20:40:53 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:40:53 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>

In article <l8so4d$snu$2 at reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 2013-12-18, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <l8pvsl$60h$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
> >  Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Ideally, you should also have written at least one functioning 
> >> compiler before learning C as well.
> >
> > Why?  I've never written a compiler.  I've written plenty of C.  I don't 
> > see how my lack of compiler writing experience has hindered my ability 
> > to write C.
> 
> I've always felt that there are features in C that don't make a lot of
> sense until you've actually implemented a compiler -- at which point
> it becomes a lot more obvious why some thing are done certain ways.

Example?

I suspect what you mean is, "There are some things that don't make sense 
until you understand computer architecture".


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:05:28 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:05:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com> <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 7:10:53 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  Grant Edwards wrote:
> > I've always felt that there are features in C that don't make a lot of
> > sense until you've actually implemented a compiler -- at which point
> > it becomes a lot more obvious why some thing are done certain ways.

> Example?

> I suspect what you mean is, "There are some things that don't make sense 
> until you understand computer architecture".

One way of rephrasing what Grant is saying is:
"You cannot be a C programmer without being a system programmer"

This certainly includes machine (hardware) architecture.

But it includes much else besides, which can generally be subsumed under
the rubric "toolchain"

A python programmer can write foo.py and run:
$ python foo.py

A C programmer writes foo.c and has to run the sequence:
$ gcc foo.c
$ a.out

So far the difference looks minimal. However it does not stop here.
Soon the foo has to split into foo1.c and foo2.c.  And suddenly you need to
understand:

1. Separate compilation
2. Make (which is separate from 'separate compilation')
3. Header files and libraries and the connection and difference

Now if youve taught a few classes you will know what a hell each of these is.
In particular, every C teacher struggles with:
"stdio.h is the standard library"

And all this has not yet touched the labyrinths of linker errors with
the corresponding magic spells called ranlib, nm etc

Got past all this kid-stuff?
Now for the Great Initiation into Manhood -- autoconf

So...

Is all this core computer science?
Or is it the curiosities of 40 year old technology?


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 18 23:16:26 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 23:16:26 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com> <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
 <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>

In article <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> Soon the foo has to split into foo1.c and foo2.c.  And suddenly you need to
> understand:
> 
> 1. Separate compilation
> 2. Make (which is separate from 'separate compilation')
> 3. Header files and libraries and the connection and difference

None of that is specific to C.  Virtually any language (including 
Python) allows a program to be split up into multiple source files.  If 
you're running all but the most trivial example, you need to know how to 
manage these multiple files and how the pieces interact.

It's pretty common here to have people ask questions about how import 
works.  How altering sys.path effects import.  Why is import not finding 
my module?  You quickly get into things like virtualenv, and now you've 
got modules coming from your source tree, from your vitualenv, from your 
system library.  You need to understand all of that to make it all work.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:26:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:26:34 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
 <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqmn=+zMYuq4bRotqNUnc7SGz29+B4Atq5yQ2_9rsLiNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:16 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> It's pretty common here to have people ask questions about how import
> works.  How altering sys.path effects import.  Why is import not finding
> my module?  You quickly get into things like virtualenv, and now you've
> got modules coming from your source tree, from your vitualenv, from your
> system library.  You need to understand all of that to make it all work.

Python might one day want to separate "system paths" from "local
paths", to give the same effect as:

#include <stdio.h>
#include "local_config.h"

where the current directory won't be searched for stdio.h. But other
than that, it's exactly the same consideration in either Python or C.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:48:18 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:48:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com> <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
 <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e9ae0ebf-5a42-4943-9377-2d0165932657@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:46:26 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  rusi  wrote:

> > Soon the foo has to split into foo1.c and foo2.c.  And suddenly you need to
> > understand:
> > 1. Separate compilation
> > 2. Make (which is separate from 'separate compilation')
> > 3. Header files and libraries and the connection and difference


> It's pretty common here to have people ask questions about how import 
> works.  How altering sys.path effects import.  Why is import not finding 
> my module?  You quickly get into things like virtualenv, and now you've 
> got modules coming from your source tree, from your vitualenv, from your 
> system library.  You need to understand all of that to make it all work.

Yes agreed. Python is far from stellar in this regard.
Just as distutils got into the core at 2.3(??) now at 3.3 virtualenv(+pip+wheel)
is getting in. Belated but better late than never.

> None of that is specific to C.  Virtually any language (including 
> Python) allows a program to be split up into multiple source files.  If 
> you're running all but the most trivial example, you need to know how to 
> manage these multiple files and how the pieces interact.

Thats a strange thing to say.  In the abstract every language that
allows for significant programs supports separate units/modules.

Somewhere those units will map onto system entities -- usually though
not always files (think of PL-SQL inside Oracle).

Even assuming files, the lines drawn between interior (to the language)
and exterior (OS-facing) are vastly different.

C, Pascal, Python, Java, SML, APL -- all very different in this regard.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 12:14:52 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:14:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <e9ae0ebf-5a42-4943-9377-2d0165932657@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com> <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
 <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
 <e9ae0ebf-5a42-4943-9377-2d0165932657@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <211cfe7d-b5b6-4c06-9e31-295864503d4c@googlegroups.com>

> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 9:46:26 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
> >  rusi  wrote:

> > > Soon the foo has to split into foo1.c and foo2.c.  And suddenly you need to
> > > understand:
> > > 1. Separate compilation
> > > 2. Make (which is separate from 'separate compilation')
> > > 3. Header files and libraries and the connection and difference

> > It's pretty common here to have people ask questions about how import 
> > works.  How altering sys.path effects import.  Why is import not finding 
> > my module?  You quickly get into things like virtualenv, and now you've 
> > got modules coming from your source tree, from your vitualenv, from your 
> > system library.  You need to understand all of that to make it all work.

> Yes agreed. Python is far from stellar in this regard.
> Just as distutils got into the core at 2.3(??) now at 3.3 virtualenv(+pip+wheel)
> is getting in. Belated but better late than never.

> > None of that is specific to C.  Virtually any language (including 
> > Python) allows a program to be split up into multiple source files.  If 
> > you're running all but the most trivial example, you need to know how to 
> > manage these multiple files and how the pieces interact.

> Thats a strange thing to say.  In the abstract every language that
> allows for significant programs supports separate units/modules.

> Somewhere those units will map onto system entities -- usually though
> not always files (think of PL-SQL inside Oracle).

> Even assuming files, the lines drawn between interior (to the language)
> and exterior (OS-facing) are vastly different.

> C, Pascal, Python, Java, SML, APL -- all very different in this regard.

Just adding this:
Different languages do their modularizing and packaging differently (what I 
earlier said) in order to achieve different tradeoffs.

Here's a thread by a competent programmer who switched from Lisp to C++.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ledger-cli/Mjky9AvrRKU
He clearly says that while he loves Lisp the language, its packaging facilities
lost out to C++ and so he rewrote his whole app in C++.


From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 01:03:33 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:03:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com> <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
 <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-062140.23162618122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <e7f00065-5810-4974-96cb-194136606404@googlegroups.com>

Roy Smith? 2013?12?19????UTC+8??12?16?26????
> In article <07c6e6a3-c5f4-4846-9551-434bdaba8b50 at googlegroups.com>,
> 
>  rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Soon the foo has to split into foo1.c and foo2.c.  And suddenly you need to
> 
> > understand:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 1. Separate compilation
> 
> > 2. Make (which is separate from 'separate compilation')
> 
> > 3. Header files and libraries and the connection and difference
> 
> 
> 
> None of that is specific to C.  Virtually any language (including 
> 
> Python) allows a program to be split up into multiple source files.  If 
> 
> you're running all but the most trivial example, you need to know how to 
> 
> manage these multiple files and how the pieces interact.
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty common here to have people ask questions about how import 
> 
> works.  How altering sys.path effects import.  Why is import not finding 
> 
> my module?  You quickly get into things like virtualenv, and now you've 
> 
> got modules coming from your source tree, from your vitualenv, from your 
> 
> system library.  You need to understand all of that to make it all work.

OK, just any novice can take the 
BOA and WXPYTHON packages to 
implement an editor in 1 to 3 hours,
but that is trivial in Delphi and 
object pascal long time ago.

The GUI to python scrit generation 
engine is the smarter way to 
let the mass interested in programming.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Dec 19 01:40:05 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:40:05 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com> <roy-BFC956.20405318122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <bhfim7F2mgnU1@mid.individual.net>

Roy Smith wrote:
> I suspect what you mean is, "There are some things that don't make sense 
> until you understand computer architecture".

An example of that kind of thing from a different
perspective: I learned Z80 assembly language by first
learning Z80 *machine* language (my homebrew computer
didn't have an assembler, so I had to write my own
and hand assemble it (after writing my own DOS
(after building my own disk controller... etc!))).

If you just look at the Z80 architecture at the
assembly language level, the rules for which
instructions go with which registers and which
addressing modes seem very haphazard. But because
I knew how the instructions were encoded, I never
had any trouble remembering the allowable combinations.
If it didn't have an encoding, you couldn't do it!

-- 
Greg


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 18 20:49:10 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:49:10 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4372.1387390692.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-64E022.20491018122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4372.1387390692.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I've never contemplated writing a compiler, let alone actually written 
> one.  It's like the comments along the lines of "you can't call yourself 
> a programmer until you've mastered regular expressions".

Who makes comments like that?  As far as I can tell, I'm the resident 
regexphile on this newsgroup, and I certainly don't say that.

I find it frustrating that Pythonistas shy away from regex as much as 
they do.  Yes, Python strings have a rich set of built-in operations 
which provide easy ways to do a lot of things traditionally done with 
regexes in other languages.

Regex is a powerful tool, and programmers will improve their skill set 
by knowing how to use them.  But that's not the same as saying you can't 
be a programmer if you don't know regex.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 21:05:55 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 02:05:55 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-64E022.20491018122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4372.1387390692.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-64E022.20491018122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8tk9s$b1s$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 01:49, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4372.1387390692.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I've never contemplated writing a compiler, let alone actually written
>> one.  It's like the comments along the lines of "you can't call yourself
>> a programmer until you've mastered regular expressions".
>
> Who makes comments like that?  As far as I can tell, I'm the resident
> regexphile on this newsgroup, and I certainly don't say that.
>
> I find it frustrating that Pythonistas shy away from regex as much as
> they do.  Yes, Python strings have a rich set of built-in operations
> which provide easy ways to do a lot of things traditionally done with
> regexes in other languages.
>
> Regex is a powerful tool, and programmers will improve their skill set
> by knowing how to use them.  But that's not the same as saying you can't
> be a programmer if you don't know regex.
>

Idiots make comments like that, I've seen them in the past, and no, I 
can't remember where :)  As for me I'm not a regexphobe, more a 
stringmethodphile.  But I'm not going to use a dozen string methods when 
one fairly simple regex will do the same job in one hit.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 19 09:54:02 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:54:02 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <l8pvsl$60h$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-4627EF.19392917122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8so4d$snu$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4372.1387390692.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-64E022.20491018122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131219155402.04e3a4d330e4f63310be414b@gmx.net>

> I find it frustrating that Pythonistas shy away from regex as much as 
> they do.

I find regular expression syntax frustrating. >;->

As long as I have the choice, I still prefer syntax like e.g.
VerbalExpressions. That's made for actual humans like me.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:09:00 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:09:00 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxQY1syc-g2mUGrOejbKhyMY9V5jkvsPTCbgzE+EdhqKAg@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2013 15:51, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>> I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
>> and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
>> so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
>> at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
>> assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
>> assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).
>
> The problem with the C class wasn't that it was "hard". I had passed my
> Pascal class, which taught nearly exactly the same issues with
> "straight A"s before (without ever having writeen any source code ever
> before). And by standard cognitive testing standards, I'm not exactly
> considered to be an idiot.

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm certainly not saying that you're an
idiot. Also I'm sure many of the students on my course would have
fared better on a course that was using e.g. Python instead of C.

Well actually come to think of it some of the other students were
pretty stupid. The lecturer had explained that they were using a
plagiarism detector so if you copy-paste code from someone else they
could catch you out for cheating. A few people took that literally and
thought that it could detect copy-pasting (in plain text files!). The
rumour went round that it would be okay if you printed out the code
and then typed it back in. For some reason they didn't bother running
the plagiarism detector until about 6 weeks into the course by which
time ~20% of submissions were exact duplicates of at least one other
(according to the lecturer who announced that all such students would
get zero marks for those assignments).


Oscar


From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 17 19:32:20 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:32:20 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>

In article <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca at gmx.net>,
 Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:

> C is just a kafkaesque mess invented by a sadistic pervert who must
> have regularly consumed illegal substances for breakfast. 

Don't be absurd.  C is a perfectly good language for the kinds of things 
it's meant for.  It lets you get down close to the hardware while still 
using rational flow control and program structure, and being reasonably 
portable.

There's very few mysteries in C.  You never have to wonder what the 
lifetime of an object is, or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures 
of Foo.foo() are going to get called, or just what operation "x + y" is 
actually going to perform.

If you maim yourself with a razor-sharp chisel, do you blame the chisel 
for being a bad tool?


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 20:33:03 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 18 Dec 2013 01:33:03 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:32:20 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> There's very few mysteries in C.

Apart from "What the hell does this piece of code actually do?". It's no 
coincidence that C, and Perl which borrows a lot of syntax from C, are 
the two champion languages for writing obfuscated code.

And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually 
mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.

And most importantly, "how many asterisks do I need, and where do I put 
them?" (only half joking).


> You never have to wonder what the
> lifetime of an object is, 

Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any 
number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no 
objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously true 
statement.


> or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures
> of Foo.foo() are going to get called, 

Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I 
don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be callable. 
But if I'm wrong, and it is callable, then surely with no arguments there 
can only be one signature that Foo.foo() might call, even if C supported 
generic functions, which I don't believe it does.

(You can simulate something rather like generic functions using pointers, 
but that's it.)


> or just what operation "x + y" is
> actually going to perform.


With no operator overloading, that one at least is correct.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 21:11:58 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:11:58 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmri56b1tyb1B2GURtueU2o0BiFkgGBF-G4mX3tsu1c_3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:32:20 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> There's very few mysteries in C.
>
> Apart from "What the hell does this piece of code actually do?". It's no
> coincidence that C, and Perl which borrows a lot of syntax from C, are
> the two champion languages for writing obfuscated code.

I thought APL would beat both of them, though you're right that the
International Obfuscoted Python Code Contest would be a quite
different beast. But maybe it'd be just as viable... a competent
programmer can write unreadable code in any language.

> And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually
> mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.

You mean like mutating locals()? The only difference is that there are
a lot more implementations of C than there are of Python (especially
popular and well-used implementations). There are plenty of things you
shouldn't do in Python, but instead of calling them
"implementation-specific undefined behaviour", we call them
"consenting adults" and "shooting yourself in the foot".

> And most importantly, "how many asterisks do I need, and where do I put
> them?" (only half joking).

The one differentiation that I don't like is between the . and ->
operators. The distinction feels like syntactic salt. There's no
context when both are valid, save in C++ where you can create a
"pointer-like object" that implements the -> operator (and has the .
operator for its own members).

>> You never have to wonder what the
>> lifetime of an object is,
>
> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any
> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no
> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously true
> statement.

Lifetime still matters. The difference between automatic and static
variables is lifetime - you come back into this function and the same
value is there waiting for you. Call it "values" or "things" instead
of "objects" if it makes you feel better, but the consideration is
identical. (And in C++, it becomes critical, with object destructors
being used to release resources. So you need to know.)

>> or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures
>> of Foo.foo() are going to get called,
>
> Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I
> don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be callable.
> But if I'm wrong, and it is callable, then surely with no arguments there
> can only be one signature that Foo.foo() might call, even if C supported
> generic functions, which I don't believe it does.

Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo(). But if that were Foo_foo(),
then the point would be better made, because C will have just one
function of that name (barring preprocessor shenanigans, of course).
In C++, the types of its arguments may affect which function is called
(polymorphism), and the dot notation works, too; but C++ does this
without having first-class functions, so that part of your response is
immaterial. In C++, Foo.foo() will always call a function foo defined
in the class of which Foo is an instance. Very simple, and static type
analysis will tell you exactly which function that is. Things do get a
bit messier with pointers, because a function might be virtual or not
virtual; C++ gives us the simple option (non-virtual functions) that
most high level languages don't (C++'s virtual functions behave the
same way as Python member functions do).

ChrisA


From paul at mad-scientist.net  Tue Dec 17 22:49:43 2013
From: paul at mad-scientist.net (Paul Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <1387338583.4269.77.camel@homebase>

On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually 
> mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.

Only asked by people who haven't had it explained.  There's "undefined
behavior", and there's "implementation-specific behavior", but it is
impossible to have "implementation-specific undefined behavior".

And, the definitions are simple to understand: "undefined behavior"
means that if your program invokes it, there is no definition of what
will happen.  This is buggy code.

"Implementation-specific" behavior means that the standard requires the
implementation to do some well-defined thing, but the standard does not
define exactly what it must be.  You can go look up what your
implementation will do in its documentation (the standard requires that
it be documented), but you can't assume the same thing will happen in
another implementation.  This is non-portable code.

It's a very rare language indeed that has no undefined or
implementation-specific behaviors.  Python gets to "cheat" by having one
reference implementation.  Every time you've had to go try something out
in the Python interpreter because the documentation didn't provide the
details you needed, that WAS implementation-specific behavior.

> > You never have to wonder what the
> > lifetime of an object is, 
> 
> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any 
> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no 
> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously true 
> statement.

The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a
concept of object lifetimes is false.  Another, less hyperbolic way of
saying this is that in C, the lifetime of objects is _exactly as long as
you specify_.  Heap objects come into existence when you explicitly
create them, and they go out of existence when you explicitly destroy
them.  If you don't destroy them, they never go away.  If you destroy
them more than once, that's undefined behavior.  Stack objects are even
simpler.

> > or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures
> > of Foo.foo() are going to get called, 
> 
> Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I 
> don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be callable.

Of course that's valid C.  It's true that C doesn't have first-class
functions, but it supports invoking functions through pointers and you
can store functions in data members, pass functions as arguments, and
return functions from other functions, so Foo.foo can certainly be
callable.

~$ cat /tmp/foo.c
#include <stdio.h>

struct Foo {
    void (*foo)();
};

void foobar(void) { printf("foobar\n"); }

int main()
{
    struct Foo Foo = { foobar };
    Foo.foo();
    return 0;
}

$ gcc -Wall -o /tmp/foo /tmp/foo.c

$ /tmp/foo
foobar




From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 18 02:53:24 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 18 Dec 2013 07:53:24 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52b15474$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:33:03 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>> or just what operation "x + y" is
>> actually going to perform.
> 
> 
> With no operator overloading, that one at least is correct.


Actually, I stand corrected. I was completely mistaken about that. The C 
operation x + y is undefined if the addition overflows. A valid C 
compiler can produce whatever code it damn well feels like in the case of 
overflow.

Oh, and in case you think that integer overflow in C will always follow 
two's complement semantics, such that INT_MAX+1 = INT_MIN, you are wrong. 
That's not guaranteed either. Clang and gcc have a flag, -fwrapv, to 
force defined behaviour on integer overflow, but that's not part of the C 
standard and not all C compilers will do the same.



-- 
Steven


From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 18 03:18:50 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 18 Dec 2013 08:18:50 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually
>> mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.
> 
> Only asked by people who haven't had it explained.  There's "undefined
> behavior", and there's "implementation-specific behavior", but it is
> impossible to have "implementation-specific undefined behavior".

Of course it is possible. An implementation has to do *something*, even 
if it's not defined anywhere. Even if that "something" is crash, or emit 
no code, or display a compile-time error. I think you're making a 
distinction that doesn't apply to the plain-English meaning of the words 
I was using: the behaviour is undefined by the standard and specific to 
that implementation.


> And, the definitions are simple to understand: "undefined behavior"
> means that if your program invokes it, there is no definition of what
> will happen.  This is buggy code.

Yes, it is buggy code, but nevertheless it often works the way people 
expect it to work, and so through carelessness or ignorance programmers 
rely on it. If you've ever written i+1 without a guard for the case that 
i is INT_MAX, you're guilty of that too.

The C99 standard lists 191 different kinds of undefined behavior, 
including what happens when there is an unmatched ' or " on a line of 
source code.

You want to know why programs written in C are so often full of security 
holes? One reason is "undefined behaviour". The C language doesn't give a 
damn about writing *correct* code, it only cares about writing 
*efficient* code. Consequently, one little error, and does the compiler 
tell you that you've done something undefined? No, it turns your validator 
into a no-op -- silently:

http://code.google.com/p/nativeclient/issues/detail?id=245

No compile-time error, no run-time error, just blindingly fast and 
correct (according to the standard) code that does the wrong thing.


> "Implementation-specific" behavior means that the standard requires the
> implementation to do some well-defined thing, but the standard does not
> define exactly what it must be.  You can go look up what your
> implementation will do in its documentation (the standard requires that
> it be documented), but you can't assume the same thing will happen in
> another implementation.  This is non-portable code.

So much for the promise of C to be portable :-)


> It's a very rare language indeed that has no undefined or
> implementation-specific behaviors.

Java? Ada?

But indeed, most languages do have odd corners where odd things happen. 
Including Python, as you point out. But C has so many of them, and they 
affect *nearly everything*.

The aim of C is to write fast code, and if it happens to be correct, 
that's a bonus. C compilers will compromise on safety and correctness in 
order to be fast. Then end result is usually one of two outcomes:

- the programmer spends a lot of time and effort to manually guard 
against the undefined behaviour, thus slowing down the code;

- or he doesn't, and has bugs and security vulnerabilities in the code.


> Python gets to "cheat" by having one
> reference implementation.  Every time you've had to go try something out
> in the Python interpreter because the documentation didn't provide the
> details you needed, that WAS implementation-specific behavior.

The situation is quite different though. Python makes at least one 
implicit promise: nothing you write in pure Python can possibly cause a 
segfault. No buffer overflows for you!

We don't know what locals()['spam'] = 42 will do inside a function, but 
unlike the C case, we can reason about it:

- it may bind 42 to the name "spam";

- it may raise a runtime exception;

- it may even be a no-op;

But even if it is a no-op, the Python compiler doesn't have carte blanche 
to do anything it likes with the entire function, as a C compiler has. C 
has more indeterminacy than Python.



>> > You never have to wonder what the
>> > lifetime of an object is,
>> 
>> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any
>> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no
>> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously
>> true statement.
> 
> The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a
> concept of object lifetimes is false.

Only object-oriented languages have *objects*. C does not have objects, 
it has values.

And yes, I'm being pedantic.


[...]
>> > or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures of Foo.foo() are going
>> > to get called,
>> 
>> Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I
>> don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be
>> callable.
> 
> Of course that's valid C.  It's true that C doesn't have first-class
> functions, but it supports invoking functions through pointers and you
> can store functions in data members, pass functions as arguments, and
> return functions from other functions, so Foo.foo can certainly be
> callable.

Okay, fair enough, that's why I prefixed my statement with a question.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 03:51:26 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:51:26 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp+aNRzPbC2qzSu2QOOj3i0MJAfp8B4bgOwGFr2tEW8Gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> You want to know why programs written in C are so often full of security
> holes? One reason is "undefined behaviour". The C language doesn't give a
> damn about writing *correct* code, it only cares about writing
> *efficient* code. Consequently, one little error, and does the compiler
> tell you that you've done something undefined? No, it turns your validator
> into a no-op -- silently:

I disagree about undefined behaviour causing a large proportion of
security holes. Maybe it produces some, but it's more likely to
produce crashes or inoperative codde. The example you cite is a rare
one where it's actually security code; that's why it's a security
vulnerability. If the same operation were flagging, say, that this
value needed to be saved to disk, then the same bug would result in
stuff not getting saved on that platform, which isn't a security risk.

Here's something from CERN about C and security:
https://security.web.cern.ch/security/recommendations/en/codetools/c.shtml

Apart from the last one (file system atomicity, not a C issue at all),
every single issue on that page comes back to one thing: fixed-size
buffers and functions that treat a char pointer as if it were a
string. In fact, that one fundamental issue - the buffer overrun -
comes up directly when I search Google for 'most common security holes
in c code' (second hit, Wikipedia "Buffer overflow" page). Here's
another page listing security concerns:

http://www.makelinux.net/alp/085

First entry: Buffer overruns. Second: File system races. Third:
Improper quoting of shell commands.

Not one of the above pages, nor any other that I came across as I was
skimming, mentioned anything involving undefined behaviour. Every one
of them is issues with properly-defined behaviour - unless you count
specific details of memory layout. If you know that automatic
variables are stored on the stack, then you can blow some buffer and
overwrite the return value. But that's the *attacker* depending on
undefined behaviour, not the *programmer*, who simply has a bug in his
code (something that's able to write more to the buffer than there's
room for).

Python is actually *worse* than C in this respect. I know this
particular one is reasonably well known now, but how likely is it that
you'll still see code like this:

def create_file():
    f = open(".....", "w")
    f.write(".......")
    f.write(".......")
    f.write(".......")

Looks fine, is nice and simple, does exactly what it should. And in
(current versions of) CPython, this will close the file before the
function returns, so it'd be perfectly safe to then immediately read
from that file. But that's undefined behaviour. Python does not
guarantee that this will work, so this might work for years and then
break when it's run under Jython, or it might even work in Jython too,
but there's just one specific situation where the file's read
immediately after being written, and that one case fails. I think
that's used at least as often as any of C's pieces of undefined
behaviour.

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Dec 18 10:23:54 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:23:54 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52B1BE0A.9000206@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/18/2013 12:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
>> On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On 12/17/2013 04:32 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You never have to wonder what the
>>>> lifetime of an object is,
>>>
>>> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any
>>> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no
>>> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously
>>> true statement.
>>
>> The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a
>> concept of object lifetimes is false.
>
> Only object-oriented languages have *objects*. C does not have objects,
> it has values.

The word 'object' has many more meanings than the one implied by Object Oriented Programming, as you well know.

> And yes, I'm being pedantic.

No, you're being an ass.

--
~Ethan~


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 11:53:05 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:53:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4360.1387381592.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4360.1387381592.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b946e8c9-ea3b-4e88-a24c-6024f66768c4@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:53:54 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/18/2013 12:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> > On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500, Paul Smith wrote:
> >> On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >>> On 12/17/2013 04:32 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> >>>> You never have to wonder what the
> >>>> lifetime of an object is,
> >>> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any
> >>> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no
> >>> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously
> >>> true statement.
> >> The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a
> >> concept of object lifetimes is false.
> > Only object-oriented languages have *objects*. C does not have objects,
> > it has values.

> The word 'object' has many more meanings than the one implied by Object Oriented Programming, as you well know.

> > And yes, I'm being pedantic.

> No, you're being an ass.

Is this discussion REALLY happening...???  In a non-programmer/layman forum it
would be completely normal

However given that we are supposedly a programmer list I am incredulous

Here is some innocuous looking python code:

A>

def draw_helper(canvas, level, p1, p2, p3):
    if level == 1:
        canvas.create_polygon(p1, p2, p3)
    else:
        p4 = midpoint(p1, p2)
        p5 = midpoint(p2, p3)
        p6 = midpoint(p1, p3)
        draw_helper(canvas, level - 1, p1, p4, p6)
        draw_helper(canvas, level - 1, p4, p2, p5)
        draw_helper(canvas, level - 1, p6, p5, p3)


And here is what happens when you run it

B>

http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~reges/python/sierpinski8.png
(More here http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~reges/python/)

Can you really say that what you see in B you can infer from A
WITHOUT RUNNING IT??

The above is the subject that is technically called 'complexity' in
math terms. If we allow the term 'complex' to be more general (like
the argument about 'object') then this becomes the pain and beauty,
the mystery and horror of programming -- seemingly trivial code when
seen as a PROGRAM can endlessly evolve into unimaginable complexity
when elaborated into a PROCESS.

So when Chris/Roy are talking of the simplicity of C's lifetime rules they
are talking of the primitive building blocks to make and understand
program-texts.

And when Steven/Devin are talking of the complexity of the same they are
talking of the arcane results that emerge when those programs run.

And from here its a small step to understand why python's slightly
more complicated semantics result in so much less complexity than
C's seemingly simple rules: C has a double complexity generator --
stack + heap vs python only having a 'managed' heap.

Analogously if the Sierpinsky triangle above were flattened into 1-d
there would be nothing to note about it.

Like python: Boring 'weenie' language... Never segfaults


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 11:20:55 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 19 Dec 2013 16:20:55 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4360.1387381592.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b31ce6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:23:54 -0800, Ethan Furman wrote:

> On 12/18/2013 12:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

>> And yes, I'm being pedantic.
> 
> No, you're being an ass.

My my, it doesn't take much of a challenge to the Holy Church Of C to 
bring out the personal attacks.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 12:15:30 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:15:30 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
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 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
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 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <l8sl7a$1v0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 08:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> The C99 standard lists 191 different kinds of undefined behavior,
> including what happens when there is an unmatched ' or " on a line of
> source code.
>
> No compile-time error, no run-time error, just blindingly fast and
> correct (according to the standard) code that does the wrong thing.
>

Plenty of compile-time warnings depending on the compiler, which the 
CPython core devs take a great deal of trouble to eliminate on every 
buildbot.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec 18 17:33:49 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:33:49 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
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 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <l8t7s3$b1p$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/18/2013 3:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> We don't know what locals()['spam'] = 42 will do inside a function,

I am mystified that you would write this. Locals() will "Update and 
return a dictionary representing the current local symbol table." The 
only thing unspecified is the relation between the 'current local symbol 
table' and the *dict* that 'represents' it. Given that a dict is 
returned, the rest is unambiguous.

> unlike the C case, we can reason about it:
>
> - it may bind 42 to the name "spam";

"somedict['spam'] = 42" will do exactly that.

> - it may raise a runtime exception;

Absolutely not.

> - it may even be a no-op;

Absolutely not.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:21:06 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:21:06 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8t7s3$b1p$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
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Message-ID: <CAHVvXxReOYrwVOBfAZWDXeQs22n=6fEcuvdU4CLfx5cVwb=Fjg@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 December 2013 22:33, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 12/18/2013 3:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> We don't know what locals()['spam'] = 42 will do inside a function,
>
> I am mystified that you would write this. Locals() will "Update and return a
> dictionary representing the current local symbol table." The only thing
> unspecified is the relation between the 'current local symbol table' and the
> *dict* that 'represents' it. Given that a dict is returned, the rest is
> unambiguous.

It's not unambiguous. The full wording is:
'''
locals()

Update and return a dictionary representing the current local symbol
table. Free variables are returned by locals() when it is called in
function blocks, but not in class blocks.

Note:
The contents of this dictionary should not be modified; changes may
not affect the values of local and free variables used by the
interpreter.
'''

The part that says "changes may ..." is deliberately ambiguous; the
author didn't want to impose too strong a constraint on any particular
implementation.

>> unlike the C case, we can reason about it:
>>
>> - it may bind 42 to the name "spam";
>
> "somedict['spam'] = 42" will do exactly that.

That's not what is usually meant by "name-binding".

>> - it may raise a runtime exception;
>
> Absolutely not.

Agreed.

>> - it may even be a no-op;
>
> Absolutely not.

Incorrect. The code in question is:

    locals()['spam'] = 42

and it is semantically a no-op. The index assignment on a temporary
dict may actually be performed by e.g. the CPython interpreter but it
is really just dead code.


Oscar


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 11:20:10 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 19 Dec 2013 16:20:10 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
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Message-ID: <52b31cba$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:51:26 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info>
> wrote:
>> You want to know why programs written in C are so often full of
>> security holes? One reason is "undefined behaviour". The C language
>> doesn't give a damn about writing *correct* code, it only cares about
>> writing *efficient* code. Consequently, one little error, and does the
>> compiler tell you that you've done something undefined? No, it turns
>> your validator into a no-op -- silently:
> 
> I disagree about undefined behaviour causing a large proportion of
> security holes. 

I didn't actually specify "large proportion", that's your words. But 
since you mention crashes:

> Maybe it produces some, but it's more likely to produce
> crashes or inoperative codde. 

*Every* crash is a potential security hole. Not only is a denial of 
service, but a fatal exception[1] is a sign that arbitrary memory has 
been executed as if it were code, or an illegal instruction executed. 
Every such crash is a potential opportunity for an attacker to run 
arbitrary code. There are only two sorts of bugs: bugs with exploits, and 
bugs that haven't been exploited *yet*.

I think you are severely under-estimating the rule of undefined behaviour 
in C on security vulnerabilities. I quote from "Silent Elimination of 
Bounds Checks":

"Most of the security vulnerabilities described in my book, Secure Coding 
in C and C++, Second Edition, are the result of exploiting undefined 
behavior in code."

http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2086870

Undefined behaviour interferes with the ability of the programmer to 
understand causality with respect to his source code. That makes bugs of 
all sorts more likely, including buffer overflows.

Earlier this year, four researchers at MIT analysed how undefined 
behaviour is effecting software, and they found that C compilers are 
becoming increasingly aggressive at optimizing such code, resulting in 
more bugs and vulnerabilities. They found 32 previously unknown bugs in 
the Linux kernel, 9 in Postgres and 5 in Python.

http://www.itworld.com/security/380406/how-your-compiler-may-be-compromising-application-security


I believe that the sheer number of buffer overflows in C is more due to 
the language semantics than the (lack of) skill of the programmers. C the 
language pushes responsibility for safety onto the developer. Even expert 
C programmers cannot always tell what their own code will do. Why else do 
you think there are so many applications for checking C code for buffer 
overflows, memory leaks, buggy code, and so forth? Because even expert C 
programmers cannot detect these things without help, and they don't get 
that help from the language or the compiler.

[...]
> Apart from the last one (file system atomicity, not a C issue at all),
> every single issue on that page comes back to one thing: fixed-size
> buffers and functions that treat a char pointer as if it were a string.
> In fact, that one fundamental issue - the buffer overrun - comes up
> directly when I search Google for 'most common security holes in c code'

I think that you have missed the point that buffer overflows are often a 
direct consequence of the language. For example:

http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/162289

Quote:

"Some C compilers optimize away pointer arithmetic overflow tests that 
depend on undefined behavior without providing a diagnostic (a warning). 
Applications containing these tests may be vulnerable to buffer overflows 
if compiled with these compilers."

The truly frightening thing about this is that even if the programmer 
tries to write safe code that checks the buffer length, the C compiler is 
*allowed to silently optimize that check away*.


> Python is actually *worse* than C in this respect.

You've got to be joking.


> I know this
> particular one is reasonably well known now, but how likely is it that
> you'll still see code like this:
> 
> def create_file():
>     f = open(".....", "w")
>     f.write(".......")
>     f.write(".......")
>     f.write(".......")
> 
> Looks fine, is nice and simple, does exactly what it should. And in
> (current versions of) CPython, this will close the file before the
> function returns, so it'd be perfectly safe to then immediately read
> from that file. But that's undefined behaviour. 

No it isn't. I got chastised for (allegedly) conflating undefined and 
implementation-specific behaviour. In this case, whether the file is 
closed or not is clearly implementation-specific behaviour, not 
undefined. An implementation is permitted to delay closing the file. It's 
not permitted to erase your hard drive.

Python doesn't have an ISO standard like C, so where the documentation 
doesn't define the semantics of something, CPython behaves as the 
reference implementation. CPython allows you to simultaneously open the 
same file for reading and writing, in which case subsequent reads and 
writes will deterministically depend on the precise timing of when writes 
are written to disk. That's not something which the language can control, 
given the expected semantics of file I/O. The behaviour is defined, but 
it's defined in such a way that what you'll get is deterministic but 
unpredictable -- a bit like dict order, or pseudo-random numbers.

A Python implementation is not permitted to optimize away subsequent 
reads, erase your hard drive, or download a copy of Wikipedia from the 
Internet. A C compiler is permitted to do any of these.

(Of course, no competent C compiler would actually download all of 
Wikipedia, since that would be slow. Instead, they would probably only 
download the HTTP headers for the main page.)




[1] I'm talking low level exceptions or errors, not Python exceptions.


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 12:02:38 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 04:02:38 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b31cba$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
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 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoHpc5+-Hc+1E4ftVTHZhBj1Z3gUST-Z-4ikyQhwsHDgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 3:20 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:51:26 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info>
>> wrote:
>>> You want to know why programs written in C are so often full of
>>> security holes? One reason is "undefined behaviour". The C language
>>> doesn't give a damn about writing *correct* code, it only cares about
>>> writing *efficient* code. Consequently, one little error, and does the
>>> compiler tell you that you've done something undefined? No, it turns
>>> your validator into a no-op -- silently:
>>
>> I disagree about undefined behaviour causing a large proportion of
>> security holes.
>
> I didn't actually specify "large proportion", that's your words. But
> since you mention crashes:

You implied that it's a significant cause of security holes. I counter
by saying that most security holes come from well-defined behaviour.

> I think you are severely under-estimating the rule of undefined behaviour
> in C on security vulnerabilities. I quote from "Silent Elimination of
> Bounds Checks":
>
> "Most of the security vulnerabilities described in my book, Secure Coding
> in C and C++, Second Edition, are the result of exploiting undefined
> behavior in code."
>
> http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=2086870

I don't intend to buy the book to find out what he's talking about.
All I know is that the one single most common cause of problems in C,
the buffer overrun, is NOT "exploiting undefined behavior", an nor are
several other common problems (as described in my previous message).

> Earlier this year, four researchers at MIT analysed how undefined
> behaviour is effecting software, and they found that C compilers are
> becoming increasingly aggressive at optimizing such code, resulting in
> more bugs and vulnerabilities. They found 32 previously unknown bugs in
> the Linux kernel, 9 in Postgres and 5 in Python.
>
> http://www.itworld.com/security/380406/how-your-compiler-may-be-compromising-application-security

Yes, those are issues. Not nearly as large as the ones that _don't_
involve your compiler hurting you, except that CPython had proper
memory-usage discipline and didn't have the more glaring bugs.

> I believe that the sheer number of buffer overflows in C is more due to
> the language semantics than the (lack of) skill of the programmers. C the
> language pushes responsibility for safety onto the developer. Even expert
> C programmers cannot always tell what their own code will do. Why else do
> you think there are so many applications for checking C code for buffer
> overflows, memory leaks, buggy code, and so forth? Because even expert C
> programmers cannot detect these things without help, and they don't get
> that help from the language or the compiler.

I agree. The lack of a native string type is fundamental to probably
99% of C program bugs. (Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I reckon it'll be
ball-park.) But at no point do these programs or programmers *exploit*
undefined behaviour. They might run into it when things go wrong, but
by that time, things have already gone wrong. Example:

int foo()
{
    char buffer[80];
    gets(buffer);
    return buffer[0]=='A';
}

So long as the user enters no more than 79 characters, this function's
perfectly well defined. It's vulnerable because user input can trigger
a problem, but if anyone consciously exploits compiler-specific memory
layouts, it's the attacker, and *NOT* the original code. On the flip
side, this code actually does depend on undefined behaviour:

int bar()
{
    char buffer[5];
    char tmp;
    memset(buffer,0,6);
    return tmp;
}

This code is always going to go past its buffer, and if 'tmp' happens
to be the next thing in memory, it'll be happily zeroed. I'm pretty
sure I saw code like this on thedailywtf.com a while back.

>> Python is actually *worse* than C in this respect.
>
> You've got to be joking.

Trolling, more than joking, but as usual, there is a grain of truth in
what I say.

>> I know this
>> particular one is reasonably well known now, but how likely is it that
>> you'll still see code like this:
>>
>> def create_file():
>>     f = open(".....", "w")
>>     f.write(".......")
>>     f.write(".......")
>>     f.write(".......")
>>
>> Looks fine, is nice and simple, does exactly what it should. And in
>> (current versions of) CPython, this will close the file before the
>> function returns, so it'd be perfectly safe to then immediately read
>> from that file. But that's undefined behaviour.
>
> No it isn't. I got chastised for (allegedly) conflating undefined and
> implementation-specific behaviour. In this case, whether the file is
> closed or not is clearly implementation-specific behaviour, not
> undefined. An implementation is permitted to delay closing the file. It's
> not permitted to erase your hard drive.

The problem is that delaying closing the file is a potentially major
issue, if the file is about to be reopened. And it _is_ undefined
behaviour that one particular Python implementation handles in a very
simple and convenient way (and, what's more, in a way that matches how
other languages (eg C++, Pike) would handle it, so it's going to "feel
right" to people); it's actually very easy to depend on this without
realizing it.

> Python doesn't have an ISO standard like C, so where the documentation
> doesn't define the semantics of something, CPython behaves as the
> reference implementation. CPython allows you to simultaneously open the
> same file for reading and writing, in which case subsequent reads and
> writes will deterministically depend on the precise timing of when writes
> are written to disk.

Errr, Python does have its standard. It's not an
implementation-defined language. Yes, there are places where CPython
is the de facto standard, but that doesn't mean something's not
undefined.

Delaying the close might be completely insignificant, but it has the
potential to be critical (depending on the exact share modes and
such). And, in the strictest sense of the word, it *is* undefined, and
it *is* depended on.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 12:06:05 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 19 Dec 2013 17:06:05 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
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 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <mailman.4389.1387406045.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b3277c$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:33:49 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 12/18/2013 3:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> We don't know what locals()['spam'] = 42 will do inside a function,
> 
> I am mystified that you would write this.

Context is everything. locals() doesn't just return any old dictionary. 
It returns a dictionary of variables.


> Locals() will "Update and
> return a dictionary representing the current local symbol table." The
> only thing unspecified is the relation between the 'current local symbol
> table' and the *dict* that 'represents' it. 

Precisely.


> Given that a dict is returned, the rest is unambiguous.
> 
>> unlike the C case, we can reason about it:
>>
>> - it may bind 42 to the name "spam";
> 
> "somedict['spam'] = 42" will do exactly that.

We're not talking about setting items in an arbitrary dict. We're talking 
about setting variables using locals(), and in that case, writing to 
locals() does not guarantee to bind the value to the *name*.

def test():
    spam = 23
    locals()["spam"] = 42
    assert spam == 42


test() passes the assertion in IronPython 2.6, but fails in CPython 2.7 
and 3.4, and Jython 2.5.


>> - it may raise a runtime exception;
> 
> Absolutely not.

I don't know of any Python implementation which does so, but the 
documentation says:

     The contents of this dictionary should not be modified

so it is hardly beyond the realm of possibility that some implementation 
may choose to treat it as an error and raise an exception.


>> - it may even be a no-op;
> 
> Absolutely not.


In the example I show above, it is a no-op. The dict returned by locals 
is modified and then immediately garbage-collected. There are no side-
effects. Should some implementation decide to compile that away as dead 
code, it would be perfectly allowed to. (Well, assuming that it 
determined first that locals() actually was the built-in and not some 
substitute, either by static analysis or runtime testing.) It wouldn't 
surprise me if PyPy was capable of doing that today.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 12:18:21 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 04:18:21 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b3277c$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
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 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmozMpUSn8CmXNo4woUy0--y23mhmovYwV9jjcBKFoWH8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:06 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Should some implementation decide to compile that away as dead
> code, it would be perfectly allowed to. (Well, assuming that it
> determined first that locals() actually was the built-in and not some
> substitute, either by static analysis or runtime testing.)

Hmm. I'm not sure how safe it is to optimize that sort of thing away
in Python. Is there any way to be truly sure that locals is still the
built-in, and if there isn't, is there any advantage to optimizing it
out with some sort of check to see if it should be de-optimized now?
But yes, in theory you're right. Mutating locals() could be optimized
out.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 12:12:24 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 19 Dec 2013 17:12:24 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:15:30 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 18/12/2013 08:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> The C99 standard lists 191 different kinds of undefined behavior,
>> including what happens when there is an unmatched ' or " on a line of
>> source code.
>>
>> No compile-time error, no run-time error, just blindingly fast and
>> correct (according to the standard) code that does the wrong thing.
>>
>>
> Plenty of compile-time warnings depending on the compiler, which the
> CPython core devs take a great deal of trouble to eliminate on every
> buildbot.

Correct. The *great deal of trouble* part is important. Things which are 
the responsibility of the language and compiler in (say) Java, D, Rust, 
Go, etc. are the responsibility of the programmer with C.

I mention these languages as they are all intended to be safer languages 
than C while still being efficient. Whether they succeed or not is 
another question.

Now, I wish to be absolutely clear. There are certain programming areas 
where squeezing out every last iota of performance is important, and to 
do so may require making some compromises on correctness or safety. I 
find the C standard's position on undefined behaviour to be 
irresponsible, but, hey, maybe it is justified on the basis that C is a 
systems language intended for use in writing performance-critical 
operating system kernels, device drivers and similar. It's fine for 
Python to promise that nothing you do will ever cause a segfault, but for 
a language used to write kernels and device drivers, you probably want 
something more powerful and less constrained.

But why is so much non-performance critical code written in C? Why so 
many user-space applications? History has shown us that the decision to 
prefer efficiency-by-default rather than correctness-by-default has been 
a disaster for software safety and security. C language practically is 
the embodiment of premature optimization: the language allows compilers 
to silently throw your code away in order to generate efficient code by 
default, whether you need it or not.


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 12:28:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 04:28:39 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrC=P45jQJGYuyqOT5PwT6EZiP4Kk+rj0WUA2-X6Go5eA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:12 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> But why is so much non-performance critical code written in C? Why so
> many user-space applications?

Very good question! I don't have an answer. There are a few
"maybe-answers", but they mostly come down to "programmer didn't know
of a viable alternative". When I wrote RosMud, I wrote it in C++,
because I was making tweaks to an existing C++ program (Gmud) and
because I thought that that was the way to make it run fast enough for
what I needed. Seven years on (or will be, come January), I've learned
how much can be done in Python, Pike, and other high level languages,
and RosMud's successor is not written in C.

Maybe part of the answer comes from people who've learned based on old
hardware. Growing up in the 80s on an Epson XT-clone, I wrote code in
BASIC, C, and assembly. Now, most of my performance problems in BASIC
were because of flawed algorithms (it's amazing how slowly an O(n*n)
algorithm will run, isn't it!), but I could imagine someone growing up
learning "C is the only way to make code run fast" and then going on
to teach the next generation of programmers to use C, without
necessarily even explaining why.

But that's just speculation. All I know is, even if you do need to
write in C for some reason (your preferred language doesn't have
bindings for some library, maybe), chances are you can write the
tiniest bit of code that way, and do the rest in a high level
language.

ChrisA


From neilc at norwich.edu  Thu Dec 19 13:40:52 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:40:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmrC=P45jQJGYuyqOT5PwT6EZiP4Kk+rj0WUA2-X6Go5eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8vejk$l7q$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-19, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:12 AM, Steven D'Aprano
><steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> But why is so much non-performance critical code written in C?
>> Why so many user-space applications?
>
> Very good question! I don't have an answer. There are a few
> "maybe-answers", but they mostly come down to "programmer
> didn't know of a viable alternative".

I believe it was Andrew Plotkin (glk, Glulxe, lots of other
stuff) who said that writing good C requires something like
brain-damage. Once you have acquired the brain-damage, writing C
code is no problem; in fact, it feels darn good.

And another thing: How many other languages have their very own
calling convention?

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 15:18:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 07:18:35 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8vejk$l7q$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmrC=P45jQJGYuyqOT5PwT6EZiP4Kk+rj0WUA2-X6Go5eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8vejk$l7q$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoFtgHVSq19JLr9dmX_eJCmBqZb0uBUN=e0tT_voJBPcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:
> And another thing: How many other languages have their very own
> calling convention?

Pascal does (sometimes called the Win32 convention).

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 19 19:38:51 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:38:51 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-1A469E.19385119122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Correct. The *great deal of trouble* part is important. Things which are 
> the responsibility of the language and compiler in (say) Java, D, Rust, 
> Go, etc. are the responsibility of the programmer with C.

Does anybody ever use D?  I looked at it a few years ago.  It seemed 
like a very good concept.  Sort of C++, with the worst of the crap torn 
out.  If nothing else, with the preprocessor torn out :-)

Did it ever go anywhere?

> Now, I wish to be absolutely clear. There are certain programming areas 
> where squeezing out every last iota of performance is important, and to 
> do so may require making some compromises on correctness or safety. I 
> find the C standard's position on undefined behaviour to be 
> irresponsible, but, hey, maybe it is justified on the basis that C is a 
> systems language intended for use in writing performance-critical 
> operating system kernels, device drivers and similar. It's fine for 
> Python to promise that nothing you do will ever cause a segfault, but for 
> a language used to write kernels and device drivers, you probably want 
> something more powerful and less constrained.

I disagree entirely (but respectfully).  If you want to get down to the 
hardware where you can fiddle bits, you want as little getting between 
you and the silicon as possible.  Every time you add a safety feature, 
you put another layer of *stuff* between you and the machine.

That's not to say it's the right language to be writing applications.


From rhodri at wildebst.org.uk  Thu Dec 19 19:45:49 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.org.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:45:49 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-1A469E.19385119122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <op.w8c8enpi5079vu@gnudebeest>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:38:51 -0000, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> I disagree entirely (but respectfully).  If you want to get down to the
> hardware where you can fiddle bits, you want as little getting between
> you and the silicon as possible.  Every time you add a safety feature,
> you put another layer of *stuff* between you and the machine.
>
> That's not to say it's the right language to be writing applications.

+1

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 21:16:05 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 20 Dec 2013 02:16:05 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-1A469E.19385119122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52b3a864$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:38:51 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>  Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
>> Correct. The *great deal of trouble* part is important. Things which
>> are the responsibility of the language and compiler in (say) Java, D,
>> Rust, Go, etc. are the responsibility of the programmer with C.
> 
> Does anybody ever use D?  I looked at it a few years ago.  It seemed
> like a very good concept.  Sort of C++, with the worst of the crap torn
> out.  If nothing else, with the preprocessor torn out :-)
> 
> Did it ever go anywhere?

There are still people using D. Like most niche languages, it's in a 
niche :-)



>> Now, I wish to be absolutely clear. There are certain programming areas
>> where squeezing out every last iota of performance is important, and to
>> do so MAY REQUIRE MAKING SOME COMPROMISES ON CORRECTNESS OR SAFETY. I
>> find the C standard's position on undefined behaviour to be
>> irresponsible, but, hey, MAYBE IT IS JUSTIFIED on the basis that C is a
>> systems language intended for use in writing performance-critical
>> operating system kernels, device drivers and similar. It's fine for
>> Python to promise that nothing you do will ever cause a segfault, but
>> for a language used to write kernels and device drivers, you probably
>> want something more powerful and less constrained.

Emphasis added.

> I disagree entirely (but respectfully).  If you want to get down to the
> hardware where you can fiddle bits, you want as little getting between
> you and the silicon as possible.  Every time you add a safety feature,
> you put another layer of *stuff* between you and the machine.

I think that if you re-read what I wrote, you actually agree with me.

With the following two provisos:

1) There is a tendency among some programmers to premature optimization 
and coding machismo where correctness is a distant fourth place behind 
speed, memory use, and code size -- and security doesn't even place. For 
those programmers, "I want to get down to the hardware" often has nothing 
to do with *needing* to get down to the hardware. Screw 'em.

2) Even for kernel developers, I believe that systems languages should be 
safe by default. You ought to have to explicitly disable (say) bounds 
checking in critical sections of code, rather than explicitly enable it. 
Or worse, have to program your own bounds checking -- especially if the 
compiler is permitted to silently disregard it if you make one tiny 
mistake.


> That's not to say it's the right language to be writing applications.

I find it interesting to note that the utter failure of C programmers to 
deal with the consequences of buffer overflows has lead Intel to put 
pointer safety into hardware.

http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/introduction-to-intel-memory-protection-extensions


There is little reason to believe that a safer language would necessarily be 
slower in practice. C has had 40 years of development to get to where it 
is now. With a fraction of the development of C, Scala code gets to 
within a factor of 2-3 of the equivalent C++ code, Go to within a factor 
of 5-7, and even Java to within a factor of 3-4. Okay, so Java has had 
oodles of optimization development too, so that's probably about as good 
as it will get. Imagine if newer languages like Go and Rust had even a 
quarter of the development effort as C and C++.

http://readwrite.com/2011/06/06/cpp-go-java-scala-performance-benchmark



-- 
Steven


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 20 21:04:24 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:04:24 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <77m9b9p3ibfsari44gvmcq1nvepm7bkdnl@4ax.com>
References: <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-1A469E.19385119122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b3a864$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <77m9b9p3ibfsari44gvmcq1nvepm7bkdnl@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l92sut$1gk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/20/13 6:58 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On 20 Dec 2013 02:16:05 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
>
>>
>> 2) Even for kernel developers, I believe that systems languages should be
>> safe by default. You ought to have to explicitly disable (say) bounds
>> checking in critical sections of code, rather than explicitly enable it.
>> Or worse, have to program your own bounds checking -- especially if the
>> compiler is permitted to silently disregard it if you make one tiny
>> mistake.
>>
> 	I wonder how BLISS falls into that... Have to read the rest of
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLISS (while I had 22 years on VMS, it was
> mostly F77, a touch of F90, C, Pascal, and some DCL; but never used BLISS)
>

Bliss is even lower-level than C.  It made the too-consistent choice of 
having names mean the same thing on the left-hand side of an assignment 
as on the right-hand side.  A name meant the address of a variable, so 
to access the value of a variable, you had to dereference it with the 
dot operator, much like the unary asterisk in C.

C:	a = b
Bliss:	a = .b

C:	a = a + 1
Bliss:	a = .a + 1

C:	a = *b
Bliss:	a = ..b

C: 	a = &b
Bliss:	a = b

It was far too common to forget the dots...

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 27 09:35:33 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 27 Dec 2013 14:35:33 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4365.1387386945.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b328f7$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-1A469E.19385119122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52bd9035$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:38:51 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> Does anybody ever use D?  I looked at it a few years ago.  It seemed
> like a very good concept.  Sort of C++, with the worst of the crap torn
> out. If nothing else, with the preprocessor torn out :-)
> 
> Did it ever go anywhere?

Apparently Facebook are now working with it:

http://www.fastcolabs.com/3019948/more-about-d-language-and-why-facebook-is-experimenting-with-it



-- 
Steven


From steve at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 18 03:22:58 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 18 Dec 2013 08:22:58 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:11:58 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info>
> wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:32:20 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> There's very few mysteries in C.
>>
>> Apart from "What the hell does this piece of code actually do?". It's
>> no coincidence that C, and Perl which borrows a lot of syntax from C,
>> are the two champion languages for writing obfuscated code.
> 
> I thought APL would beat both of them, though you're right that the
> International Obfuscoted Python Code Contest would be a quite different
> beast. But maybe it'd be just as viable... a competent programmer can
> write unreadable code in any language.
> 
>> And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually
>> mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.
> 
> You mean like mutating locals()? The only difference is that there are a
> lot more implementations of C than there are of Python (especially
> popular and well-used implementations). There are plenty of things you
> shouldn't do in Python, but instead of calling them
> "implementation-specific undefined behaviour", we call them "consenting
> adults" and "shooting yourself in the foot".
> 
>> And most importantly, "how many asterisks do I need, and where do I put
>> them?" (only half joking).
> 
> The one differentiation that I don't like is between the . and ->
> operators. The distinction feels like syntactic salt. There's no context
> when both are valid, save in C++ where you can create a "pointer-like
> object" that implements the -> operator (and has the . operator for its
> own members).
> 
>>> You never have to wonder what the
>>> lifetime of an object is,
>>
>> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any
>> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no
>> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously
>> true statement.
> 
> Lifetime still matters. The difference between automatic and static
> variables is lifetime - you come back into this function and the same
> value is there waiting for you. Call it "values" or "things" instead of
> "objects" if it makes you feel better, but the consideration is
> identical. (And in C++, it becomes critical, with object destructors
> being used to release resources. So you need to know.)
> 
>>> or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures of Foo.foo() are going to
>>> get called,
>>
>> Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I
>> don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be
>> callable. But if I'm wrong, and it is callable, then surely with no
>> arguments there can only be one signature that Foo.foo() might call,
>> even if C supported generic functions, which I don't believe it does.
> 
> Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo(). 

Hah, well according to Paul Smith's example code you can. So either:


- it's possible to be an experienced C programmer and still have 
fundamental gaps in your knowledge about basic concepts like dotted 
function calls;

- or Paul's sample code was not what he claimed it to be;

- or maybe the whole thing is undefined and we're all right! C both does 
and doesn't allow Foo.foo() function calls, *sometimes at the same time*.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 03:32:56 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:32:56 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq3E-E73q0xPFA6ThQkKcFN-hB=xmrj1Rja1iudxWxgiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:22 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo().
>
> Hah, well according to Paul Smith's example code you can. So either:
>
>
> - it's possible to be an experienced C programmer and still have
> fundamental gaps in your knowledge about basic concepts like dotted
> function calls;
>
> - or Paul's sample code was not what he claimed it to be;
>
> - or maybe the whole thing is undefined and we're all right! C both does
> and doesn't allow Foo.foo() function calls, *sometimes at the same time*.

- or it's possible to be an experienced C and C++ programmer and have
your mind just blank out about which things you can do in C and which
were added in C++, especially when you've been up all night and are
wired on energy drinks.

Mea culpa. My brain looked at that and thought it was a member
function, which is a C++ feature, and forgot that it could be a
straight-up function pointer, which is a C feature. Paul's correct,
I'm wrong.

ChrisA


From davea at davea.name  Wed Dec 18 07:53:23 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:53:23 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Experiences/guidance_on_teaching_P?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ython_as_a_first_programming=0A_language?=
In-Reply-To: <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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 <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.4756682896081081778@news.gmane.org>

On 18 Dec 2013 08:22:58 GMT, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> 
wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:11:58 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > The one differentiation that I don't like is between the . and ->
> > operators. The distinction feels like syntactic salt. There's no 
context
> > when both are valid, save in C++ where you can create a 
"pointer-like
> > object" that implements the -> operator (and has the . operator 
for its
> > own members).

Funny you should say that in the middle of a discussion about 
lifetime.  In C, when you do the -> thing, you're now in a different 
struct with a potentially different lifetime.  If p is a local,  with 
auto lifetime,  then so is p.x

So, although the two are mutually exclusive,  there's valuable 
information hidden in the required choice.

-- 
DaveA



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 09:55:10 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 01:55:10 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first
 programming language
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.4756682896081081778@news.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrrFpOaFs0sw0NOc0RFi9Rk+9uin3qKZMmtoG_zNGekQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Dave Angel <davea at davea.name> wrote:
> Funny you should say that in the middle of a discussion about lifetime.  In
> C, when you do the -> thing, you're now in a different struct with a
> potentially different lifetime.  If p is a local,  with auto lifetime,  then
> so is p.x
>
> So, although the two are mutually exclusive,  there's valuable information
> hidden in the required choice.

Sure, but you can figure out whether p is a local struct or a local
pointer to some other struct by looking at its declaration. Do you
also need to look at every usage of it? We don't adorn every / with a
marker saying whether we're dividing ints or floats, and that's
something that could be potentially useful (float division of two ints
being what Py3 does). Why adorn pointer usage?

ChrisA


From neilc at norwich.edu  Wed Dec 18 10:17:34 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:17:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b15b62$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <almarsoft.4756682896081081778@news.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrrFpOaFs0sw0NOc0RFi9Rk+9uin3qKZMmtoG_zNGekQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8seae$4ug$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-18, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Dave Angel <davea at davea.name> wrote:
>> Funny you should say that in the middle of a discussion about
>> lifetime.  In C, when you do the -> thing, you're now in a
>> different struct with a potentially different lifetime.  If p
>> is a local,  with auto lifetime,  then so is p.x
>>
>> So, although the two are mutually exclusive,  there's valuable
>> information hidden in the required choice.
>
> Sure, but you can figure out whether p is a local struct or a
> local pointer to some other struct by looking at its
> declaration. Do you also need to look at every usage of it? We
> don't adorn every / with a marker saying whether we're dividing
> ints or floats, and that's something that could be potentially
> useful (float division of two ints being what Py3 does). Why
> adorn pointer usage?

Indeed. Golang allows . to do member lookup for both structs and
pointers to structs.

The -> syntax perhaps was needful in the days before function
prototypes.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From davea at davea.name  Wed Dec 18 15:52:43 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:52:43 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Re:_Experiences/guidance_on_teaching?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_Python_as_a_first=0A_programming_language?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrrFpOaFs0sw0NOc0RFi9Rk+9uin3qKZMmtoG_zNGekQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
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 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
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Message-ID: <almarsoft.622276911333220818@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 01:55:10 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> Sure, but you can figure out whether p is a local struct or a local
> pointer to some other struct by looking at its declaration. Do you
> also need to look at every usage of it? 

C is a glorified macro assembler.  So the -> operator is not 
analogous to the dot operator, it's Syntactic sugar:

p-> a. Is really
(*p).a

-- 
DaveA



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Dec 19 01:41:00 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:41:00 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4385.1387399894.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
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Message-ID: <bhfinsF2mgnU2@mid.individual.net>

Dave Angel wrote:
> C is a glorified macro assembler.  So the -> operator is not analogous 
> to the dot operator, it's Syntactic sugar:
> 
> p-> a. Is really
> (*p).a

But it's not above inferring a dereferencing
operation when you call a function via a
pointer. If f is a pointer to a function,
then

    f(a)

is equivalent to

    (*f)(a)

If the compiler can do that for function calls,
there's no reason it couldn't do it for member
access as well.

If I remember rightly, Ada not only does implicit
dereferencing like this, it doesn't even have an
explicit dereferencing operator! If you want to
refer to the whole record pointed to by p, you
have to say 'p.all'.

BTW, the whole notion of a "pointer to a function"
is redundant in C, since you can't do anything
with what it points to other than call it. The
equivalent concept in Modula, for example, is
just called a function type, not a pointer-to-
function type. Similarly in most languages that
have functions as values.

-- 
Greg


From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 19 07:06:44 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 07:06:44 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Experiences/guidance_on_teaching_P?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ython_as_a_first_programming=0A_language?=
In-Reply-To: <bhfinsF2mgnU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
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Message-ID: <almarsoft.5005383462908190878@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:41:00 +1300, Gregory Ewing 
<greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> But it's not above inferring a dereferencing
> operation when you call a function via a
> pointer. If f is a pointer to a function,
> then


>     f(a)


> is equivalent to


>     (*f)(a)


> If the compiler can do that for function calls,
> there's no reason it couldn't do it for member
> access as well.

Quite right.  And I recall being confounded by the function pointer 
syntax; it never fit in my mental model of how the rest of C worked.

Anyway I was not intending to defend C choices,  merely to point out 
an advantage this choice gave me.  On a language without garbage 
collection,  the indirection was very important to keep in mind.

-- 
DaveA



From rhodri at wildebst.org.uk  Wed Dec 18 19:10:04 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.org.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:10:04 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first
 programming language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
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 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
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 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
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Message-ID: <op.w8bb22hx5079vu@gnudebeest>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:55:10 -0000, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>  
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Dave Angel <davea at davea.name> wrote:
>> Funny you should say that in the middle of a discussion about  
>> lifetime.  In
>> C, when you do the -> thing, you're now in a different struct with a
>> potentially different lifetime.  If p is a local,  with auto lifetime,   
>> then
>> so is p.x
>>
>> So, although the two are mutually exclusive,  there's valuable  
>> information
>> hidden in the required choice.
>
> Sure, but you can figure out whether p is a local struct or a local
> pointer to some other struct by looking at its declaration. Do you
> also need to look at every usage of it? We don't adorn every / with a
> marker saying whether we're dividing ints or floats, and that's
> something that could be potentially useful (float division of two ints
> being what Py3 does). Why adorn pointer usage?

Because explicit is better than implicit?

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Wed Dec 18 13:00:08 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:00:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
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 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-18, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo().

If "Foo" is a structure with a field named "foo" that is a pointer to
a function, then you can indeed "have" Foo.foo().

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! It's OKAY -- I'm an
                                  at               INTELLECTUAL, too.
                              gmail.com            


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 13:07:52 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:07:52 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8so9f$6i6$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 18:00, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-18, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo().
>
> If "Foo" is a structure with a field named "foo" that is a pointer to
> a function, then you can indeed "have" Foo.foo().
>

Complete fooey :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 18 20:56:45 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:56:45 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-82CE68.20564518122013@news.panix.com>

In article <l8snr8$snu$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 2013-12-18, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Well, okay. In C you can't have Foo.foo().
> 
> If "Foo" is a structure with a field named "foo" that is a pointer to
> a function, then you can indeed "have" Foo.foo().

Sigh.  This has gone off in a direction I never intended.

What I meant was that in C++, when you write call a method by name, it 
can sometimes be difficult to know exactly what method is being called.  
Between inheritance, optional parameters, automatic type promotion, 
default constructors, and maybe a few other things I've forgotten, even 
if you've got all the signatures of foo() in front of you, it can 
sometimes be hard to figure out which one the compiler will pick.

And that sort of confusion never happens in C.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Dec 19 00:39:35 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:39:35 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-82CE68.20564518122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-82CE68.20564518122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <bhff4qF21fhU1@mid.individual.net>

Roy Smith wrote:
> even 
> if you've got all the signatures of foo() in front of you, it can 
> sometimes be hard to figure out which one the compiler will pick.

And conversely, sometimes the compiler will have a hard
time figuring out which one you want it to pick!

I had an experience in Java recently where a library
author had provided two overloads of a function, that
at first sight could be disambiguated by argument types.
But for a certain combination of types it was
ambiguous, and I was unlucky enough to want to use that
particular combination, and the compiler insisted on
picking the wrong one. As far as I could see, it was
*impossible* to call the other overload with those
parameter types.

I ended up resorting to copying the whole function and
giving it another name, just so I could get it called.

-- 
Function overloading: Just say no.
Greg


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 19 00:56:56 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:56:56 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4317.1387332728.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8snr8$snu$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-82CE68.20564518122013@news.panix.com>
 <bhff4qF21fhU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <roy-6B35F5.00565619122013@news.panix.com>

In article <bhff4qF21fhU1 at mid.individual.net>,
 Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> > even 
> > if you've got all the signatures of foo() in front of you, it can 
> > sometimes be hard to figure out which one the compiler will pick.
> 
> And conversely, sometimes the compiler will have a hard
> time figuring out which one you want it to pick!
> 
> I had an experience in Java recently where a library
> author had provided two overloads of a function, that
> at first sight could be disambiguated by argument types.
> But for a certain combination of types it was
> ambiguous, and I was unlucky enough to want to use that
> particular combination, and the compiler insisted on
> picking the wrong one. As far as I could see, it was
> *impossible* to call the other overload with those
> parameter types.
> 
> I ended up resorting to copying the whole function and
> giving it another name, just so I could get it called.

BTDT.

We were doing a huge network management application.  There was an 
SNMP_Manager class, which had three or four different constructors, each 
one taking a dozen or more arguments, many of them optional.

I finally got fed up with eternally trying to figure out which 
constructor was being called and replaced them with a series of factory 
functions: construct_for_traps(), construct_for_polling(), etc.


From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 21:33:54 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:33:54 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CABicbJLj8q+A0a6Mhpb+gdjP5R-YsCKY-Nacji-+10nOaLrADw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> There's very few mysteries in C.  You never have to wonder what the
> lifetime of an object is

Yes you do. Lifetimes are hard, because you need to malloc a lot, and
there is no defined lifetime for pointers -- they could last for just
the lifetime of a stack frame, or until the end of the program, or
anywhere in-between, and it's impossible to know for sure, and if you
get it wrong your program crashes. So there's all these conventions
you have to come up with like "borrowing" and "owning", but they
aren't compiler-enforced, so you still have to figure it out, and you
will get it wrong. Successors like C++ mitigate these issues with
destructors (allowing heap-allocated stuff to be tied to the lifetime
of a stack), and smart pointers and so on.

> , or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures
> of Foo.foo() are going to get called

C still has overloaded functions, just fewer of them. It'll still
mystify you when you encounter it, though.
http://www.robertgamble.net/2012/01/c11-generic-selections.html

> , or just what operation "x + y" is
> actually going to perform.

I don't know. Will it do float addition? int addition? size_t
addition? How does coercion work?

+ can do many different things, it's not just a straight translation
to an obvious machine instruction.

> If you maim yourself with a razor-sharp chisel, do you blame the chisel
> for being a bad tool?

If I didn't need it to be that sharp, then yes.

-- Devin


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:01:52 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:01:52 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJLj8q+A0a6Mhpb+gdjP5R-YsCKY-Nacji-+10nOaLrADw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <CABicbJLj8q+A0a6Mhpb+gdjP5R-YsCKY-Nacji-+10nOaLrADw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr2qqAC8gSka27oU=FS+YsjyqONSBsLsy4OYeR2MmtLpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
<jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> There's very few mysteries in C.  You never have to wonder what the
>> lifetime of an object is
>
> Yes you do. Lifetimes are hard, because you need to malloc a lot, and
> there is no defined lifetime for pointers -- they could last for just
> the lifetime of a stack frame, or until the end of the program, or
> anywhere in-between, and it's impossible to know for sure, and if you
> get it wrong your program crashes. So there's all these conventions
> you have to come up with like "borrowing" and "owning", but they
> aren't compiler-enforced, so you still have to figure it out, and you
> will get it wrong. Successors like C++ mitigate these issues with
> destructors (allowing heap-allocated stuff to be tied to the lifetime
> of a stack), and smart pointers and so on.

Wrong. A pointer is a scalar value, usually some kind of integer, and
its lifetime is the same as any other scalar. Heap memory's lifetime
is also very simple: it lasts until freed. (Though technically that's
not even a part of the language - malloc/free are just functions. Not
that it matters. Anyway, C++ has the new and delete operators, which
are part of the language.) There are conventions to prevent memory
leaks, but those are mere conventions. It's simple in the same way
that a toy electric motor is simple: you apply current to it, and it
spins. There's so little that it can do that it HAS to be simple.

ChrisA


From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:12:00 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:12:00 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr2qqAC8gSka27oU=FS+YsjyqONSBsLsy4OYeR2MmtLpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <CABicbJLj8q+A0a6Mhpb+gdjP5R-YsCKY-Nacji-+10nOaLrADw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmr2qqAC8gSka27oU=FS+YsjyqONSBsLsy4OYeR2MmtLpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABicbJJ3GeQncNXsWOq6fLe4g8u4Adgt=7KgUs24+v+O5w+YZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 7:01 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
> <jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes you do. Lifetimes are hard, because you need to malloc a lot, and
>> there is no defined lifetime for pointers -- they could last for just
>> the lifetime of a stack frame, or until the end of the program, or
>> anywhere in-between, and it's impossible to know for sure, and if you
>> get it wrong your program crashes. So there's all these conventions
>> you have to come up with like "borrowing" and "owning", but they
>> aren't compiler-enforced, so you still have to figure it out, and you
>> will get it wrong. Successors like C++ mitigate these issues with
>> destructors (allowing heap-allocated stuff to be tied to the lifetime
>> of a stack), and smart pointers and so on.
>
> Wrong. A pointer is a scalar value, usually some kind of integer, and
> its lifetime is the same as any other scalar.

The duration of a pointer's validity is far more interesting, and that
is why it is the primary meaning of the term "pointer lifetime". Also,
it's obviously what I meant.

>  Heap memory's lifetime
> is also very simple: it lasts until freed.

Sometimes simple things are hard to use correctly. I only said it was
hard, not complicated.

-- Devin


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:24:06 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:24:06 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJJ3GeQncNXsWOq6fLe4g8u4Adgt=7KgUs24+v+O5w+YZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com>
 <CABicbJLj8q+A0a6Mhpb+gdjP5R-YsCKY-Nacji-+10nOaLrADw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmr2qqAC8gSka27oU=FS+YsjyqONSBsLsy4OYeR2MmtLpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABicbJJ3GeQncNXsWOq6fLe4g8u4Adgt=7KgUs24+v+O5w+YZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoGmYEqMW1OeAKb+X=iTggEp3197WjgtoOFG8qgMntmiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Devin Jeanpierre
<jeanpierreda at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Wrong. A pointer is a scalar value, usually some kind of integer, and
>> its lifetime is the same as any other scalar.
>
> The duration of a pointer's validity is far more interesting, and that
> is why it is the primary meaning of the term "pointer lifetime". Also,
> it's obviously what I meant.
>>  Heap memory's lifetime
>> is also very simple: it lasts until freed.
>
> Sometimes simple things are hard to use correctly. I only said it was
> hard, not complicated.

Sure, which is why I went on to discuss the block of memory pointed
to. But the rules are a lot simpler than in Python, where something
exists until... uhh... the system feels like disposing of it. At which
point __del__ will probably be called, but we can't be sure of that.
All we know about an object's lifetime in Python is that it will
continue to live so long as we're using it. And then multiprocessing
and fork make it messier, but that's true in any language.

The original point was that C has no mysteries. I posit that this is
true because C's rules are so simple. It might well be harder to work
in this system (taking it to an extreme, Brainf* is about the simplest
Turing-complete language possible, and it's virtually impossible to
write good code in it), but it has no mysteries.

ChrisA


From rhodri at wildebst.org.uk  Wed Dec 18 19:49:04 2013
From: rhodri at wildebst.org.uk (Rhodri James)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:49:04 -0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:51:44 -0000, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net>  
wrote:

> The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
> knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
> to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
> basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
> university.

It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic  
mistakes of software engineering: you're trying to write one language in  
the style of another.  It is possible to write C code as if it were  
Pascal, but it's a painful process and it won't be pretty.  It's far  
better to use a language as it is rather than as you want it to be.

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:54:12 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:54:12 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp7c-Zr2wGheOGn4emGRn1pYQ=Xap_7+akDRRpsiaL6_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Rhodri James <rhodri at wildebst.org.uk> wrote:
> It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic
> mistakes of software engineering

Never get into a flame war in Asia, and never go up against a C
programmer when segfaults are on the line!

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:29:31 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:29:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
Message-ID: <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:19:04 AM UTC+5:30, Rhodri James wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:51:44 -0000, Wolfgang Keller wrote: 
> > The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
> > knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
> > to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
> > basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
> > university.

> It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic  
> mistakes of software engineering: you're trying to write one language in  
> the style of another.  It is possible to write C code as if it were  
> Pascal, but it's a painful process and it won't be pretty.  It's far  
> better to use a language as it is rather than as you want it to be.

Yes but the reverse is also true: Sometimes the best code in language
L is first conceptualized in design-language D and then 'coded' into
L.

When we were students D was called 'flow-charts'
Gone out of fashion today and replaced by UML.

Now I expect the majority on this list to not care for UML.
However the idea of a separate design language is not negated by the fact
that UML is overkill and silly.

eg Saw this (on the Erlang mailing list)
In some Australian university (in the 90s) 2 sems of Cobol was
replaced by 1 sem Scheme + 1 sem Cobol.  Students learnt more Cobol in
the second arrangement than in the first. [Note: 'More Cobol' not 'More
Programming']

Now if you were to ask those *students* I would expect similar
emotions towards Cobol as Wolfgang is expressing towards C.
That is however a separate issue :D


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 23:50:54 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 04:50:54 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
 <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ttv6$8jv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 04:29, rusi wrote:
> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:19:04 AM UTC+5:30, Rhodri James wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:51:44 -0000, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>> The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
>>> knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
>>> to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
>>> basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
>>> university.
>
>> It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic
>> mistakes of software engineering: you're trying to write one language in
>> the style of another.  It is possible to write C code as if it were
>> Pascal, but it's a painful process and it won't be pretty.  It's far
>> better to use a language as it is rather than as you want it to be.
>
> Yes but the reverse is also true: Sometimes the best code in language
> L is first conceptualized in design-language D and then 'coded' into
> L.
>
> When we were students D was called 'flow-charts'
> Gone out of fashion today and replaced by UML.
>
> Now I expect the majority on this list to not care for UML.
> However the idea of a separate design language is not negated by the fact
> that UML is overkill and silly.
>
> eg Saw this (on the Erlang mailing list)
> In some Australian university (in the 90s) 2 sems of Cobol was
> replaced by 1 sem Scheme + 1 sem Cobol.  Students learnt more Cobol in
> the second arrangement than in the first. [Note: 'More Cobol' not 'More
> Programming']
>
> Now if you were to ask those *students* I would expect similar
> emotions towards Cobol as Wolfgang is expressing towards C.
> That is however a separate issue :D
>

If C is such a crap language, what does it says for the thousands of 
languages that never got anywhere?  Or did C simply have a far larger 
sales and marketing budget? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 00:09:42 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:09:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4398.1387428670.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
 <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4398.1387428670.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <049186d3-2a00-48bb-94c3-34b3214ce08d@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:20:54 AM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 19/12/2013 04:29, rusi wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:19:04 AM UTC+5:30, Rhodri James wrote:
> >> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:51:44 -0000, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> >>> The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
> >>> knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
> >>> to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
> >>> basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
> >>> university.
> >> It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic
> >> mistakes of software engineering: you're trying to write one language in
> >> the style of another.  It is possible to write C code as if it were
> >> Pascal, but it's a painful process and it won't be pretty.  It's far
> >> better to use a language as it is rather than as you want it to be.
> > Yes but the reverse is also true: Sometimes the best code in language
> > L is first conceptualized in design-language D and then 'coded' into
> > L.
> > When we were students D was called 'flow-charts'
> > Gone out of fashion today and replaced by UML.
> > Now I expect the majority on this list to not care for UML.
> > However the idea of a separate design language is not negated by the fact
> > that UML is overkill and silly.
> > eg Saw this (on the Erlang mailing list)
> > In some Australian university (in the 90s) 2 sems of Cobol was
> > replaced by 1 sem Scheme + 1 sem Cobol.  Students learnt more Cobol in
> > the second arrangement than in the first. [Note: 'More Cobol' not 'More
> > Programming']
> > Now if you were to ask those *students* I would expect similar
> > emotions towards Cobol as Wolfgang is expressing towards C.
> > That is however a separate issue :D

> If C is such a crap language, what does it says for the thousands of 
> languages that never got anywhere?  Or did C simply have a far larger 
> sales and marketing budget? :)

Are you addressing that to me?
[Assuming you are a good boy who does not use GG-crap and knows the laws
of snipping and attributing I am taking it so :D ]

No I am not in the 'C-is-crap' camp.  Very far into the opposite actually.

What would you say to someone who says:
- food is crap to eat
- air is crap to breathe

"C is crap technology" is analogous.

If you are using python its likely CPython. Whats the C there?
If you are connected to the net the modem likely runs a linux. Coded in?

I am an Luddite -- dont touch computers.
Right. The car I drive probably has embedded chips... Embeded linux.

No Amish/Luddite is not enough to say "No!" to C
You'd have to be completely isolated from every connection with modern
civilization.

So python programmers employ the 'black-cat' squad of GvR and gang to shield
us from C.  Because they are good at it we can afford to ignore it.

No, "No C" is no option.
The only option is at how many removes we keep away from it.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 00:36:26 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 05:36:26 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <049186d3-2a00-48bb-94c3-34b3214ce08d@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
 <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4398.1387428670.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049186d3-2a00-48bb-94c3-34b3214ce08d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8u0ki$f7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 05:09, rusi wrote:
> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:20:54 AM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 19/12/2013 04:29, rusi wrote:
>>> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:19:04 AM UTC+5:30, Rhodri James wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 15:51:44 -0000, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>>>> The only issue for me was to figure out how to do in C what I already
>>>>> knew in Pascal. And I had to waste a *lot* more time and mental effort
>>>>> to mess with that language than it took for me to learn *both* the
>>>>> basics of programming per se *and* Pascal in the first class at my home
>>>>> university.
>>>> It's sounds like you made, and are carrying on making, one of the classic
>>>> mistakes of software engineering: you're trying to write one language in
>>>> the style of another.  It is possible to write C code as if it were
>>>> Pascal, but it's a painful process and it won't be pretty.  It's far
>>>> better to use a language as it is rather than as you want it to be.
>>> Yes but the reverse is also true: Sometimes the best code in language
>>> L is first conceptualized in design-language D and then 'coded' into
>>> L.
>>> When we were students D was called 'flow-charts'
>>> Gone out of fashion today and replaced by UML.
>>> Now I expect the majority on this list to not care for UML.
>>> However the idea of a separate design language is not negated by the fact
>>> that UML is overkill and silly.
>>> eg Saw this (on the Erlang mailing list)
>>> In some Australian university (in the 90s) 2 sems of Cobol was
>>> replaced by 1 sem Scheme + 1 sem Cobol.  Students learnt more Cobol in
>>> the second arrangement than in the first. [Note: 'More Cobol' not 'More
>>> Programming']
>>> Now if you were to ask those *students* I would expect similar
>>> emotions towards Cobol as Wolfgang is expressing towards C.
>>> That is however a separate issue :D
>
>> If C is such a crap language, what does it says for the thousands of
>> languages that never got anywhere?  Or did C simply have a far larger
>> sales and marketing budget? :)
>
> Are you addressing that to me?

No, I never address individuals.  As far as I'm concerned I'm sending to 
an entire newsgroup/mailing list.

> [Assuming you are a good boy who does not use GG-crap and knows the laws
> of snipping and attributing I am taking it so :D ]

Please cut the sarcastic crap.

>
> No I am not in the 'C-is-crap' camp.  Very far into the opposite actually.
>
> What would you say to someone who says:
> - food is crap to eat
> - air is crap to breathe
>
> "C is crap technology" is analogous.
>
> If you are using python its likely CPython. Whats the C there?
> If you are connected to the net the modem likely runs a linux. Coded in?
>
> I am an Luddite -- dont touch computers.
> Right. The car I drive probably has embedded chips... Embeded linux.
>
> No Amish/Luddite is not enough to say "No!" to C
> You'd have to be completely isolated from every connection with modern
> civilization.
>
> So python programmers employ the 'black-cat' squad of GvR and gang to shield
> us from C.  Because they are good at it we can afford to ignore it.
>
> No, "No C" is no option.
> The only option is at how many removes we keep away from it.
>

I've no idea what most of the above is meant to mean.  Have you been 
reading too much RR or "Joseph McCarthy"?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 19 16:31:34 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 19 Dec 2013 21:31:34 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
 <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4398.1387428670.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b365b6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 04:50:54 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> If C is such a crap language, what does it says for the thousands of
> languages that never got anywhere?  Or did C simply have a far larger
> sales and marketing budget? :)

The sociology of computer languages is a fascinating topic. Like any 
technology, it's a mix of factors. Why did VHS defeat Betamax when all 
the experts agreed Betamax was the better system? How did Windows take 
over IT? The advantages of C in the 1970s and 80s included:

- although "portable C code" is a sad joke, compared to most of the 
languages that came before it, C *is* portable;

- C compilers can be small, efficient and fast, although they weren't as 
small, efficient and fast as (say) TurboPascal;

- the machine code they generated was acceptably lightweight and fast, 
although not as lightweight and fast as (say) Forth;

- C was an open standard at a time when computing was big enough that 
open standards were becoming important;

- C did (and still does) have some areas where it is quite advantageous, 
like systems programming;

- C benefited from it's close association with Unix, where Unix went, so 
did C;

- Unix made some universities a lot of money, hence they had a motive to 
support C with both money and attention;

- C was associated with universities, so people learned C and then taught 
C to the next generation of students, who went on to introduce C to 
industry; and 

- C (like Perl) falls into the hacker-machismo sweet-spot, where it is 
just challenging enough to still be fun without being either too easy or 
too hard. It is low-level enough to allow premature optimization (without 
being as low as assembly language, which is too low-level to be fun) and 
gives the freedom to play code golf and write amazingly obfuscated code. 
So C is a language that allows hackers to show off.

Some of those reasons also applied to Lisp, and remember that in the 
1970s and even 80s Lisp compilers were at least as efficient as C 
compilers. I believe there are two factors that lead to C becoming more 
popular than Lisp. The first is Worse Is Better:

http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html

The second is that, despite all the weird punctuation and digraphs and 
even trigraphs, C fits the mental space of English-speakers better than 
Lisp. To the average programmer, C is a more natural syntax and 
programming model than Lisp.



-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 19 19:30:39 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:30:39 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net>
 <op.w8bdv2fs5079vu@gnudebeest>
 <b75ea418-84eb-44d4-ae48-99a558e7c020@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4398.1387428670.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b365b6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-D08422.19303919122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b365b6$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

[some stuff]
> where Unix went, so did C;
[some more stuff]

What he said.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 04:18:13 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:18:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <23663ad2-9b3f-4950-87af-ea1be504234b@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:42:07 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 17 December 2013 00:39, rusi wrote:
> > I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
> > http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf

> Thanks for this Rusi, I just read it and it describes very well what I
> think about our own C course. My choice quote from the beginning would
> be "When the irrelevant becomes significant, the essentials become
> obscured and incomprehensible."

> (BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?)

Thanks for the heads-up -- some pdf generation issues I guess

Is it ok now?

Yeah I could clean up some more formatting some more but its 25 years now and
Ive forgotten my troff!!

More important the tone is not what I would use today.
The point I was trying to make then was:

C is an unsuitable language to TEACH PROGRAMMING WITH because it fills
students' brains with irreleventia

Once one knows the stuff, C is a NEAT programming language.

IOW its a question of learning-curve not the content.


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 05:06:26 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:06:26 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <23663ad2-9b3f-4950-87af-ea1be504234b@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <23663ad2-9b3f-4950-87af-ea1be504234b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxTnQ3-GHQvhU0cxM6ki107mOnq_+8gpWFWYbvxABVzwCw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 December 2013 09:18, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>> (BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?)
>
> Thanks for the heads-up -- some pdf generation issues I guess
>
> Is it ok now?

Yes. Also it definitely reads better without the twocolumn format.


Oscar


From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:22:33 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:22:33 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217162233.1538587c27b6a27df9a33aee@gmx.net>

> > It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax.
> > At about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings"
> > imho.
> 
> I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax do 
> you like, out of curiosity?

Pascal, Python, if written by someone who uses semantic identifiers and
avoids to use C(++)/Java-isms. I've seen Eiffel as well (without
understanding it) and it didn't look ridiculous to me.

In short, syntax that contains the strict minimum of "special"
characters (delimiting lists etc. with brackets is ok to me), and
almost exclusively human readable words. Although, if you push it to the
extreme; Applescript is nice to read, but much less nice to write
imho... :-/

C, C++, Java, Javascript, PHP, Perl etc., however, are just
unspeakable <expletives>.

<rant>

BTW; Yes, I do *hate* those C(++)-isms (or Java-isms) that have started
to sneak into Python in the past ~10 years. Using e.g. == for
comparisons is just braindead. Use := for assignments instead, because
that's mathematical syntax. And that "@" for decorators is, well, who
proposed it? I'd like to cut off all his fingers with a bolt cutter.
The same for people who use augmented assignments, "syntax shortcuts"
or abbrvtd idtfrs. Ship them all to Fukushima, one way, no return
ticket. Learn to touch-type, get an editor with decent syntax
completion or just stop wreaking havoc to the world economy with your
laziness. Code is read a hundred times more often than it is typed.

</rant>

Sincerely,

Wolfgang 


From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 19 10:14:13 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:14:13 +0100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217162233.1538587c27b6a27df9a33aee@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20131219161413.b011741a67dba9eb892dd500@gmx.net>

> > I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax
> > do you like, out of curiosity?
> 
> Pascal, Python, if written by someone who uses semantic identifiers
> and avoids to use C(++)/Java-isms. I've seen Eiffel as well (without
> understanding it) and it didn't look ridiculous to me.

Nor did a recent dialect of Cobol (since someone else mentioned it)
horrify me at first sight to the point all those C-derivatives do. I
also get to use SQL a bit (instead of those "query builders" that I
consider as garbage), although that's just for databases of course.

Verbosity is definitely A Good Thing.

In fact, thinking of it, a really good language should imho *require*
verbosity (how about a *minimum* length - or maybe even a
dictionary-based sanity check - for identifiers?), since that already
keeps all those lazy morons away who think that "shortcuts are cool".

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Thu Dec 19 15:42:04 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:42:04 +1300
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <20131219161413.b011741a67dba9eb892dd500@gmx.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>	<20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>	<mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>	<20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>	<mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>	<20131217162233.1538587c27b6a27df9a33aee@gmx.net>
 <20131219161413.b011741a67dba9eb892dd500@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <bhh40sFd6k7U1@mid.individual.net>

Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> In fact, thinking of it, a really good language should imho *require*
> verbosity (how about a *minimum* length - or maybe even a
> dictionary-based sanity check - for identifiers?), since that already
> keeps all those lazy morons away who think that "shortcuts are cool".

No, that wouldn't be a really good language, that
would be a language designed by someone with a
very shallow understanding of what makes programs
understandable.

A piece of code such as

    for (i = 0; i < numThings; i++)
       total[i] += things[i];

is NOT improved by rewriting it as

    for (theLoopIndex = 0; theLoopIndex < numThings; theLoopIndex++)
       total[theLoopIndex] += things[theLoopIndex];

Quite the reverse, IMO.

-- 
Greg


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 15:51:16 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 07:51:16 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <bhh40sFd6k7U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.3772.1386592239.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217162233.1538587c27b6a27df9a33aee@gmx.net>
 <20131219161413.b011741a67dba9eb892dd500@gmx.net>
 <bhh40sFd6k7U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo0_-8H+91TxZ-fBhgYniPO-=V50nojnYZ1gev8dWj=eQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> A piece of code such as
>
>    for (i = 0; i < numThings; i++)
>       total[i] += things[i];
>
> is NOT improved by rewriting it as
>
>    for (theLoopIndex = 0; theLoopIndex < numThings; theLoopIndex++)
>       total[theLoopIndex] += things[theLoopIndex];
>
> Quite the reverse, IMO.

Wholeheartedly agreed. The only improvement I would make would be to
declare i in the if block (valid in C++ and some of the more recent C
standards), to emphasize the locality of the variable.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  9 11:06:06 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 11:06:06 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3776.1386595668.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-971EEA.11060609122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3776.1386595668.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Oscar Benjamin
> <oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 1) Some people felt that Python is not an "industry standard" unlike
> > C/C++/Java and that it is not as good for employability.
> 
> Disprove that by checking any job listing site in your area/industry.
> You'll find plenty of Python jobs there.
> 
> ChrisA

I have access to the resume search feature on careers.stackoverflow.com.  
Just for fun, I ran the following searches (for skills advertised by 
people who have listed their resumes):

C        1k
C++      1.3k
Java     1.7k
Python   1.2k

The search qualifiers were "within 200 miles of the United States", 
"legal right to work here required", "full time", "exclude students", 
and, "only active candidates".

Not sure what the proves, other than these are the languages people who 
are looking for jobs know (or at least claim to know).


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 11:25:55 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 03:25:55 +1100
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <roy-971EEA.11060609122013@news.panix.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3776.1386595668.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-971EEA.11060609122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo8KJXMgVf1GyXBX1C2TLgGHo-zoxxiST_aGxudTpWp0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:06 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> Not sure what the proves, other than these are the languages people who
> are looking for jobs know (or at least claim to know).

That's the converse of what I was talking about. Employability of a
skill depends on how many employers are looking for that skill;
sightings on resumes aren't quite that. But since people will put on
their resumes what they think employers will actually care about (mine
doesn't mention my ability to use Q-BASIC's CALL ABSOLUTE command to
make use of a mouse), they're going to be at least somewhat connected.
Of course, it might be that stackoverflow careers attracts Python
programmers and something else attracts C programmers, but unless
there's some really major skew, I'd say it's still at least somewhat
valid to point to that and show that Python matters to employment.

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  9 14:57:18 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 14:57:18 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l857ak$cu4$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/9/2013 7:23 AM, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.

A few years ago, MIT switched from Scheme (which I believe originated at 
MIT) to Python for its first course. There might faculty blogs 
discussing the reasons. In any case, the course is one of MIT's free 
online offerings. There is a draft of a syllabus for your school. 
Certainly, most of the concept taught in the current C course could be 
taught with Python instead.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 05:42:53 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:42:53 +0000
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <l857ak$cu4$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l857ak$cu4$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxTDJOtjY6dkUFx1yYb3DTkQf49pCOoakAX-io5-3kGOiw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 December 2013 19:57, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 12/9/2013 7:23 AM, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
>> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
>> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
>> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
>> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
>> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
>> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
>> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.
>
>
> A few years ago, MIT switched from Scheme (which I believe originated at
> MIT) to Python for its first course. There might faculty blogs discussing
> the reasons.

Thanks Terry. The best I've found is this:
http://cemerick.com/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program/

It doesn't really describe why Python was chosen and I can't find any
actual evaluation of how well it worked but I guess if they haven't
backed out of the decision then that says something.

> In any case, the course is one of MIT's free online offerings.
> There is a draft of a syllabus for your school. Certainly, most of the
> concept taught in the current C course could be taught with Python instead.

I guess you mean this:
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-00sc-introduction-to-computer-science-and-programming-spring-2011/

The description there sounds like exactly what we're aiming for:
'''
This subject is aimed at students with little or no programming
experience. It aims to provide students with an understanding of the
role computation can play in solving problems. It also aims to help
students, regardless of their major, to feel justifiably confident of
their ability to write small programs that allow them to accomplish
useful goals. The class will use the Python programming language.
'''

I'll have a bit of a look at that. In our case the course would
probably be called something like "Introduction to [scientific]
programming using Python" so we may want to put more time into
numpy/matplotlib etc than some other courses would.


Oscar


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 10:36:19 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:36:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3818.1386672202.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l857ak$cu4$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3818.1386672202.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <90312db8-18ae-4af4-abcb-f31e54da702b@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:12:53 PM UTC+5:30, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> On 9 December 2013 19:57, Terry Reedy  wrote:
> > On 12/9/2013 7:23 AM, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >> I work in a University Engineering faculty teaching, among other
> >> things, programming. In our last meeting about improving our teaching
> >> syllabus and delivery we've identified the first year programming
> >> courses as an area where there is room for improvement and we're
> >> considering (mainly on my suggestion) switching to using Python as the
> >> first programming language that we use to introduce our students to
> >> programming. I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> >> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.
> > A few years ago, MIT switched from Scheme (which I believe originated at
> > MIT) to Python for its first course. There might faculty blogs discussing
> > the reasons.

> Thanks Terry. The best I've found is this:
> http://cemerick.com/2009/03/24/why-mit-now-uses-python-instead-of-scheme-for-its-undergraduate-cs-program/

There's this
http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python
which seems to have died -- the internet archive has it here
https://web.archive.org/web/20120429151818/http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python

Neither really talks of why python was chosen

In that direction you may want to see why Java has been ousted from CMU:
http://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/


From bgailer at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:53:30 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:53:30 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A62DCA.4070101@gmail.com>

On 12/9/2013 7:23 AM, Oscar Benjamin wrote:
[snip]
> I'm interested to know if anyone can share experience of
> a similar situation or can point to any case studies about this.
Taking the opposite perspective from Gene:

I think Python is great as an intro to computing and programming.

Give a student a tool with which he can be productive quickly. and with 
minimal effort.

Understanding the real machine may be of interest to some but is not 
essential .I'd make that "later" and optional.

Do you teach potential drivers how the engine works before letting them 
drive?

Caution: having listened to many students express their suffering on 
these lists I recommend:
beta test any course before putting it into production.
be sure you give the student what he needs to understand and take the 
next step.
be sure your instructors are willing to help the students.
it is, after all, the job of the instructor to ensure the student succeeds.


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec  9 16:32:34 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:32:34 -0500
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3797.1386622419.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-95A817.16323409122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3797.1386622419.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 bob gailer <bgailer at gmail.com> wrote:

> Understanding the real machine may be of interest to some but is not 
> essential.

Surprisingly (to myself, anyway), I agree.

Languages like C, Fortran, and Java, are fairly close to the machine.  
They all expose (C more than the others) fundamental machine features 
such as hardware data types (various sizes of ints and floats) and 
addresses.  Understanding how a computer works gives you added 
understanding of how the higher level language you're using works.

But, Python operates at a higher level of abstraction.  In a sense, 
understanding how a computer works is a hinderance to learning Python.  
Look at all the beginner questions we get regarding what

>>> a = 47

means in Python.  People have a mental picture of a 32-bit (or maybe 
64-bit) integer value 47 being placed into some pre-allocated memory 
location, and that interferes with their understanding of what's really 
happening in Python.  Likewise, they have incorrect expectations about 
what happens if that follow that up with

>>> b = a ** 100


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 22:26:37 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:26:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3797.1386622419.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3797.1386622419.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <61e7f602-f9aa-45c5-a3a4-c99a7eadf24e@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 9, 2013 2:53:30 PM UTC-6, bob gailer wrote:
> Taking the opposite perspective from Gene: I think Python
> is great as an intro to computing and programming. Give a
> student a tool with which he can be productive quickly.
> and with minimal effort. Understanding the real machine
> may be of interest to some but is not essential .I'd make
> that "later" and optional. Do you teach potential drivers
> how the engine works before letting them drive?

No, not a scientific understanding of the process by which
chemical energy is converted to mechanical energy, or even the
demanding study of fuel efficiency, or much less the historical
evolution of engines from the time of the Aeolipile

But, as with any mental evolution, many tangential areas
of study need to be considered for both the wholistic and
practical application of said knowledge.

The first course of study for any "would be" motor vehicle
operator is the fundamental forces of classical physics that
effect ALL bodies in motion -- acceleration, velocity,
inertia, blah-blah-blah, but, more importantly, how these
forces are amplified to extreme danger during the operation
of a motor vehicle.

Secondly even though a student of "motorized locomotion"
need not understand the inner workings of an internal
combustion engine, he would behoove himself to study some
basic and practical knowledge of the generalized system.

  1. A modern motor vehicle converts chemical energy
  stored in fuel into mechanical energy via and internal
  explosion. The major components of a modern motor
  vehicle include: Engine, Transmission and Drive-train
  -- Nuff said.

  2. Mechanical components require fluids to reduce
  friction and remove heat from the system, therefore, a
  working knowledge of fluid levels and locations is
  vital.

    Furthermore, fluids are color coded. Oil is black; most
    transmission fluids are red; coolant is colored yellow
    (or green) and mixed with water.

    **As a side note, you might want to be aware that
    ethylene glycol, whilst quite poisonous, tastes
    sweet. That fact may seem inconsequential until your
    beloved pet drinks leaking coolant water, quickly
    goes blind, and dies a slow horrible death.

  3. Vehicles require lights and signals for safety and
  useability. An understanding of the proper locations
  and procedures for periodic testing is vital to safe
  operation. Same for other safety devises and interfaces.

  4. Obviously some rules of the road are applicable.
  Your car will not be the ONLY vehicle on the road,
  therefor your must understand how to interface with
  other drivers, navigate adverse road conditions, and
  react to unexpected situations that can arise at any
  time.

============================================================
 Conclusion:
============================================================
The main points i outlined are merely a blip on the radar of
the many tangential points of study, however, they are quite
relevant to proper operation of a motor vehicle. Most of you
can probably draw the parallels to programming from these
examples.

My opinion is that problem solving should be covered before
any language is even discussed or any code is written. Too
many people lack basic problem solving skills. Look, if you
can't write up (or imagine) the "general" steps that are
required to solve your problem, then how the heck do you
expect to write code to solve the problem?

And let's just get one thing strait from day uno for all you
"perspective programmers" out there:

  If the idea of banging your head on a desk for days
  only to find out that some stupid API does not work as
  expected, or was poorly designed, or that, GOD
  FORBID... you made the dumbest mistake ever!

      Ha Ha Ha!

  If the idea of that kind of mind numbing detective
  work is not fun for you, well, you're in good company
  because i don't always enjoy it either...

      HOWEVER!

  if you're not driven by the satisfaction of finding
  the answer; by a burning desire to solve the problem;
  by an unflinching will not to be defeated by any bug
  -- because the answer is always out there, you just
  have to find it -- well then, programming might not be
  for you.

But i'm just wasting my time because soon you'll discover
Python list and Stack overflow and from these sources flows
an endless supply of free labor.

  Teach a man to Google and others program for a day.
  Teach him to problem solve, and he programs for life.



From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 16 23:05:12 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 04:05:12 GMT
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3797.1386622419.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <61e7f602-f9aa-45c5-a3a4-c99a7eadf24e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52afcd78$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:26:37 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

>     **As a side note, you might want to be aware that ethylene glycol,
>     whilst quite poisonous, tastes sweet. That fact may seem
>     inconsequential until your beloved pet drinks leaking coolant water,
>     quickly goes blind, and dies a slow horrible death.

/s/beloved pet/Russian tank crew/


-- 
Steven


From conorh at conorh.net  Mon Dec  9 18:25:39 2013
From: conorh at conorh.net (Conor Hughes)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:25:39 -0800
Subject: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language
References: <CAHVvXxS23g8dxO23pPTmXLo0z=QzJY_CjwMUtJcvAVfRhZa8bA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3790.1386619061.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8761qxfvyk.fsf@conorh.net>

Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> writes:

> A few years ago, MIT switched from Scheme (which I believe originated
> at MIT) to Python for its first course. There might faculty blogs
> discussing the reasons. In any case, the course is one of MIT's free
> online offerings.

Berkeley recently made the same transition. They had been mirroring the
MIT Scheme-based 6.001 quite closely; I believe the Python-based
replacement at Berkeley doesn't concern itself with tracking the new
6.001 at MIT. In any case, much (read: some) ink was spilled and
consternation felt about the transition, but all in all my impression
was that it went OK. IMHO, if you're going to switch from Scheme to
something else for first-time programmers, Python is quite nice, as it
reads exceptionally well and is very close to pseudocode in
appearance sometimes. Of course, given that I didn't learn on Python,
my opinions may be colored by prior experience.


From fred.sells at adventistcare.org  Mon Dec  9 14:24:22 2013
From: fred.sells at adventistcare.org (Sells, Fred)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 19:24:22 +0000
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
Message-ID: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>

I'm using python 2.6 on Linux/CentOs 6.x

I'm getting ctypes to work, but getting stuck on the use of  .argtypes.  Can someone point out what I'm doing.  This is my first use of ctypes and it looks like I'm getting different definitions in stackoverflow that may correspond to different version of python.

Here is my code.  Without the restype/argtypes it works, but I cannot figure out how to define argtypes to match the data.  
mylibrary     = ctypes.CDLL(LIBRARY_PATH)
mdsconvert = mylibrary.RugVersionConverter
mdsconvert.restype = ctypes.c_int
mdsconvert.argtypes = [ charptr, #flat buffer of mds 3.0 data
                        ctypes.c_buffer, #computed flat buffer of mds 2.0 data
                        ctypes.c_buffer  #version set to "1.00.4" in c++, never used
                        ]

def convertMds2to3(mds30buffer):
    mds20 = ctypes.create_string_buffer('\000'*3000)
    t = ctypes.create_string_buffer('\000'*30)
    success = mdsconvert(mds30buffer,  ctypes.byref(mds20), ctypes.byref(t) )
    print 'convert %s to %s success=%s version=%s' % (len(mds30buffer), len(mds20.value), success, t.value)
    return mds20.value

------------------------------- C++ code looks like this -------------------------------------------------------
extern "C"
   int RugVersionConverter( char * sInputRecord, char * MDS2_Rec, char * Version );

where sInputRecord is input and MDS2_Rec and Version are output.

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  9 15:15:09 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 15:15:09 -0500
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
In-Reply-To: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
References: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
Message-ID: <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/9/2013 2:24 PM, Sells, Fred wrote:
> I'm using python 2.6 on Linux/CentOs 6.x

I would use the latest 2.7 (or 3.3) for a new project if at all possible.

> I'm getting ctypes to work, but getting stuck on the use of  .argtypes.  Can someone point out what I'm doing.  This is my first use of ctypes and it looks like I'm getting different definitions in stackoverflow that may correspond to different version of python.

In particular, I am sure that there have been bugfixes for ctypes.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:22:08 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:22:08 -0500
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
In-Reply-To: <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
 <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+x=vcy_dsHzpQmkqetHym89XJEc4Jm3tka_bcebNmwqkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 12/9/2013 2:24 PM, Sells, Fred wrote:
>
>> I'm using python 2.6 on Linux/CentOs 6.x
>>
>
> I would use the latest 2.7 (or 3.3) for a new project if at all possible.
>
> I seem to recall that Centos needs 2.6 as default python for its own
purposes, so you need to install another version without messing with 2.6.
VirtualEnv might help.


>  I'm getting ctypes to work, but getting stuck on the use of  .argtypes.
>>  Can someone point out what I'm doing.  This is my first use of ctypes and
>> it looks like I'm getting different definitions in stackoverflow that may
>> correspond to different version of python.
>>
>
> In particular, I am sure that there have been bugfixes for ctypes.
>
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From fred.sells at adventistcare.org  Mon Dec  9 21:27:28 2013
From: fred.sells at adventistcare.org (Sells, Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 02:27:28 +0000
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+x=vcy_dsHzpQmkqetHym89XJEc4Jm3tka_bcebNmwqkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
 <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+x=vcy_dsHzpQmkqetHym89XJEc4Jm3tka_bcebNmwqkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CF782@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>

My management requires that we stick with the version that comes with CentOs which is 2.6.   I know that it?s possible to have multiple versions co-resident with or without virtualenv, but policy is policy ?



From: Python-list [mailto:python-list-bounces+frsells=adventistcare.org at python.org] On Behalf Of Joel Goldstick
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 3:22 PM
To: Terry Reedy
Cc: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: noobie needs help with ctypes

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu<mailto:tjreedy at udel.edu>> wrote:
On 12/9/2013 2:24 PM, Sells, Fred wrote:
I'm using python 2.6 on Linux/CentOs 6.x

I would use the latest 2.7 (or 3.3) for a new project if at all possible.

I seem to recall that Centos needs 2.6 as default python for its own purposes, so you need to install another version without messing with 2.6.  VirtualEnv might help.

I'm getting ctypes to work, but getting stuck on the use of  .argtypes.  Can someone point out what I'm doing.  This is my first use of ctypes and it looks like I'm getting different definitions in stackoverflow that may correspond to different version of python.

In particular, I am sure that there have been bugfixes for ctypes.


--
Terry Jan Reedy

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



--
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec  9 22:27:47 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 10 Dec 2013 03:27:47 GMT
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
References: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
 <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+x=vcy_dsHzpQmkqetHym89XJEc4Jm3tka_bcebNmwqkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3808.1386642453.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a68a33$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 02:27:28 +0000, Sells, Fred wrote:

> My management requires that we stick with the version that comes with
> CentOs which is 2.6.   I know that it?s possible to have multiple
> versions co-resident with or without virtualenv, but policy is policy ?

And a perfectly reasonable policy it is too. Python 2.6 is still 
supported by Centos and RedHat, so it's not obsolete yet.

What's not reasonable though is this gunk in your post:

> <html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml"
> xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
> xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"
> xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml"
> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head>
> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)">
> <style><!--

[ delete about three pages of HTML ]

This forum is in part a text-only newsgroup and mailing list. Please 
respect the conventions of the newsgroup by only sending plain text 
messages rather than so-called "Rich Text" (HTML) messages, if at all 
possible.


Thank you.


-- 
Steven


From fred.sells at adventistcare.org  Tue Dec 10 08:14:53 2013
From: fred.sells at adventistcare.org (Sells, Fred)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:14:53 +0000
Subject: noobie needs help with ctypes
In-Reply-To: <52a68a33$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CEBF3@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>
 <l858c3$our$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+x=vcy_dsHzpQmkqetHym89XJEc4Jm3tka_bcebNmwqkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3808.1386642453.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a68a33$0$2829$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <DCD75728F460F14586086EA606E8308201119CFB46@ACEVXCHMBX1001.ADVENTISTCORP.NET>

Mucho apologies for rich text, I think I picked that up when replying to a post without properly checking.  Thanks for heads up.

Fred.


From sa.allame at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 14:34:43 2013
From: sa.allame at gmail.com (Asemaneh Allame)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 11:34:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: problem with graph of python(show)
Message-ID: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>

hi everybody
i recently  install python & vpython(v:2.6.7) in my windows(32bit)
it install succesfully but dont show some of  graphes that involved their code in the lib.python ,
i dont know what s problem...
please giude me
thanks 


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec  9 14:44:37 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 19:44:37 +0000
Subject: problem with graph of python(show)
In-Reply-To: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
References: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l856i6$3nm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 09/12/2013 19:34, Asemaneh Allame wrote:
> hi everybody
> i recently  install python & vpython(v:2.6.7) in my windows(32bit)
> it install succesfully but dont show some of  graphes that involved their code in the lib.python ,
> i dont know what s problem...
> please giude me
> thanks
>

By an amazing coincidence I don't know what your problem is, either.  I 
also suspect no other reader knows what your problem is.  So if you'd be 
kind enough to tell us what you've tried, what you expected to happen, 
and what actually happened, then it's fairly certain that somebody here 
will be able to help you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From sa.allame at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 12:03:53 2013
From: sa.allame at gmail.com (Asemaneh Allame)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:03:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: problem with graph of python(show)
In-Reply-To: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
References: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <cbd6e72b-8a49-4edc-8754-f513ff835bda@googlegroups.com>

?? ?????? 9 ?????? 2013? ???? 23:04:43 (UTC+3:30)? Asemaneh Allame ?????:
> hi everybody
> 
> i recently  install python & vpython(v:2.6.7) in my windows(32bit)
> 
> it install succesfully but dont show some of  graphes that involved their code in the lib.python ,
> 
> i dont know what s problem...
> 
> please giude me
> 
> thanks



thanks for your attention
my mean is obvios
i cont get any graph of vpython
it shows me a maseage in this form:
" pythonw.exe has stopped working"
i m sure that have a good & perfect install and i dont khnow what s problem
is that enouph??????
by regards



From andipersti at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 13:18:06 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:18:06 +0100
Subject: problem with graph of python(show)
In-Reply-To: <cbd6e72b-8a49-4edc-8754-f513ff835bda@googlegroups.com>
References: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
 <cbd6e72b-8a49-4edc-8754-f513ff835bda@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A75ADE.3070507@gmail.com>

On 10.12.2013 18:03, Asemaneh Allame wrote:
> my mean is obvios
> i cont get any graph of vpython
> it shows me a maseage in this form:
> " pythonw.exe has stopped working"
> i m sure that have a good & perfect install and i dont khnow what s problem
> is that enouph??????

No, that's not enough. You need to be more specific.

How do you run your program? From the command line or some IDE? Or are 
you using the python shell?

What code are you trying to run?

How do you know that you have a "good & perfect install"?

Have you tried the example from the official site?
http://www.vpython.org/contents/bounce_example.html

There is also a forum for VPython:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups&hl=en#!forum/vpython-users

Bye, Andreas


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Dec 10 13:32:25 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:32:25 -0500
Subject: problem with graph of python(show)
In-Reply-To: <cbd6e72b-8a49-4edc-8754-f513ff835bda@googlegroups.com>
References: <37e8acb9-e4c7-4752-8b0f-1ca341e8d969@googlegroups.com>
 <cbd6e72b-8a49-4edc-8754-f513ff835bda@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l87mnf$k51$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/10/2013 12:03 PM, Asemaneh Allame wrote:

> thanks for your attention
> my mean is obvios
> i cont get any graph of vpython

I am fairly expert with python but know almost nothing about vpython. I 
have no idea what 'graph of python' or 'graph of vpython' means. I 
suggest that you find a vpython list.

> it shows me a maseage in this form:
> " pythonw.exe has stopped working"

If you do, post the complete traceback, not just the final message.
Also, describe what you did to get the message.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From logan.neal.collins at gmail.com  Mon Dec  9 15:36:17 2013
From: logan.neal.collins at gmail.com (Logan Collins)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 14:36:17 -0600
Subject: Possible PEP Submission
Message-ID: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just checking whether 1) a PEP is the proper place for this and 2) what
y'all think about it.

I would like to propose a change to the the 're' standard library to
support iterables.

So, something like the following would work:

import re
text = """hello user
hello user
hello user"""

users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]

newtext = re.sub("user", users, text)

# newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"

There are a few corner cases I'm not sure what would be the best behavior.
Nor am I entirely certain this should be modified functionality or just...
a new function. What do y'all think?


-- 
---Logan Collins

GPG Public Key 2AAE8775
0xfc1185c82aae8775
http://keyserver.ubuntu.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xFC1185C82AAE8775
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From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Mon Dec  9 16:01:22 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 15:01:22 -0600
Subject: Possible PEP Submission
In-Reply-To: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131209150122.4b3c8699@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-09 14:36, Logan Collins wrote:
> Just checking whether 1) a PEP is the proper place for this and 2)
> what y'all think about it.
> 
> I would like to propose a change to the the 're' standard library to
> support iterables.
> 
> So, something like the following would work:
> 
> import re
> text = """hello user
> hello user
> hello user"""
> 
> users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]
> 
> newtext = re.sub("user", users, text)
> 
> # newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"
> 
> There are a few corner cases I'm not sure what would be the best
> behavior. Nor am I entirely certain this should be modified
> functionality or just... a new function. What do y'all think?

Well, it's not that hard to do in stock python:

  i = itertools.cycle(users)
  print re.sub(
    'user',
    lambda m: next(i),
    text
    )

which should handle both the "fewer matches than items in users"
case, as well as wrap around in the "more matches than items in
users" case.  If you don't want wrap-around, just use iter(users)
instead of itertools.cycle(users)

This could be wrapped up in some class to give it a clearer name, but
I'm not sure it's worth doing a PEP or even including it in the
standard library.

-tkc






From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec  9 16:08:43 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 21:08:43 +0000
Subject: Possible PEP Submission
In-Reply-To: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A6315B.5060601@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 09/12/2013 20:36, Logan Collins wrote:
> Just checking whether 1) a PEP is the proper place for this and 2) what
> y'all think about it.
>
> I would like to propose a change to the the 're' standard library to
> support iterables.
>
> So, something like the following would work:
>
> import re
> text = """hello user
> hello user
> hello user"""
>
> users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]
>
> newtext = re.sub("user", users, text)
>
> # newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"
>
> There are a few corner cases I'm not sure what would be the best
> behavior. Nor am I entirely certain this should be modified
> functionality or just... a new function. What do y'all think?
>
What's your use-case? How often would someone want to do this?

Here's a way of doing it without adding to the re module:


import re

text = """hello user
hello user
hello user"""

class Replacement:
     def __init__(self, users):
         self.users = users
         self.index = -1

     def __call__(self, m):
         self.index += 1
         return self.users[self.index]

users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]

newtext = re.sub("user", Replacement(users), text)

# newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"
print(newtext)


The search string is a simple literal, so another way is:


from itertools import chain

text = """hello user
hello user
hello user"""

users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]

# newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"
newtext = "".join(chain(*zip(text.split("user", len(users)), users)))
print(newtext)



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec  9 16:59:48 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2013 16:59:48 -0500
Subject: Possible PEP Submission
In-Reply-To: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ=TTfA3qpYtw-ix-MU_0tOy5jxYanTjJoEURGiau=sUiYL1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l85ega$2ga$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/9/2013 3:36 PM, Logan Collins wrote:
> Just checking whether 1) a PEP is the proper place for this

No, not needed. If, after discussion here (or python-ideas), such a 
change would only need a tracker issue.

> and 2) what y'all think about it.

> I would like to propose a change to the the 're' standard library to
> support iterables.

Not really. You are proposing that re.sub accept an iterable of strings 
for the replacement string.

> So, something like the following would work:
>
> import re
> text = """hello user
> hello user
> hello user"""

Repeating the text is the wrong approach. So is using re when not needed.

> users = ["Bob", "Alice", "Jeffery"]
>
> newtext = re.sub("user", users, text)
>
> # newtext = "hello Bob\nhello Alice\nhello Jeffery"

 >>> '\n'.join('Hello user'.replace('user', name) for name in ["Bob", 
"Alice", "Jeffery"])

'Hello Bob\nHello Alice\nHello Jeffery'

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 00:25:08 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 21:25:08 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>

Is anyone using a module or database that gives Python 3.x access to MPAA
ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.)?

I explored a few of the possibilities on Pypi, a couple of web interfaces,
and the IMDB flat text file with ratings and reasons for those ratings, but
I've not been really impressed yet.

The IMDB flat text file probably came the closest, but it appears to have
encoding issues; it's apparently nearly windows-1255, but not quite.

I may end up using the IMDB flat text file with binary I/O, but before I
dig into this any farther, I thought I should ask here: Has someone already
explored this and found a solution they were happy with?

Thanks!
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Dec 10 01:40:57 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:40:57 +1100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:

> Is anyone using a module or database that gives Python 3.x access to MPAA
> ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.)?

What information would you want access to? Why would a library (rather
than, say, a short set of strings) be needed?

> I explored a few of the possibilities on Pypi, a couple of web interfaces,
> and the IMDB flat text file with ratings and reasons for those ratings, but
> I've not been really impressed yet.

You seem to be talking about some MPAA document, where is it so we can
know what specifically you're referring to?

-- 
 \         ?A child of five could understand this. Fetch me a child of |
  `\                                              five.? ?Groucho Marx |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From pscott209 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 01:48:21 2013
From: pscott209 at gmail.com (Paul Scott)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:48:21 +0200
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <52A6B935.8010208@gmail.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 10/12/2013 08:40, Ben Finney wrote:
> Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Is anyone using a module or database that gives Python 3.x access
>> to MPAA ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.)?

If you are already using IMDB you should have a look at
http://imdbpy.sourceforge.net/downloads.html as well. It provides a
relatively simple Python interface to either a local or hosted IMDB
dataset and allows you to grab the MPAA rating directly from the
canonical movie name.

- -- Paul

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From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:35:01 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:35:01 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <52A6B935.8010208@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <52A6B935.8010208@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_or7QSveuodV-io7-yHuMyPPk2ap6e-94K6sZrnMs4s3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Paul Scott <pscott209 at gmail.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 10/12/2013 08:40, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> Is anyone using a module or database that gives Python 3.x access
> >> to MPAA ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.)?
>
> If you are already using IMDB you should have a look at
> http://imdbpy.sourceforge.net/downloads.html as well. It provides a
> relatively simple Python interface to either a local or hosted IMDB
> dataset and allows you to grab the MPAA rating directly from the
> canonical movie name.
>
I believe this was the module I got the farthest with.  I was using it
without a local database, instead querying IMDB's website.  However, it
appeared to be 2.x only (no 3.x yet), and it was tracebacking a lot.

The rest of the IMDB-related packages on Pypi appeared to have tiny version
numbers, or to have not been updated in quite a while.
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From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:32:06 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:32:06 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>wrote:

> Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Is anyone using a module or database that gives Python 3.x access to MPAA
> > ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.)?
>
> What information would you want access to? Why would a library (rather
> than, say, a short set of strings) be needed?
>
Movie ratings.   EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.

A library might query a REST interface or screenscrape, though most
relevant websites have policies against screenscraping.


> > I explored a few of the possibilities on Pypi, a couple of web
> interfaces,
> > and the IMDB flat text file with ratings and reasons for those ratings,
> but
> > I've not been really impressed yet.
>
> You seem to be talking about some MPAA document, where is it so we can
> know what specifically you're referring to?
> It's available from many places, EG:
> http://www.filewatcher.com/m/mpaa-ratings-reasons.list.gz.203532-0.html
>
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Dec 10 15:26:31 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:26:31 +1100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>wrote:
> > What information would you want access to? Why would a library
> > (rather than, say, a short set of strings) be needed?
> >
> Movie ratings.   EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.

That tells me only that you want short strings. Based on what you've
said so far, your requirements can be met with code like this:

    movie_ratings = ["G", "PG", "PG-13", ?]

which doesn't need a library to access.

So, I ask again: What data do you want access to? Can you describe what
you want your program to receive when it accesses movie ratings?

Is this information held specifically by the MPAA? If so, where is it
online, and how do the MPAA make it available publicly? These are
questions to answer prior to asking about Python libraries.

Before asking ?how do I use Python for this job??, you need to help us
understand what ?this job? is.

-- 
 \             ?For your convenience we recommend courteous, efficient |
  `\                            self-service.? ?supermarket, Hong Kong |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 18:02:51 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:02:51 -0700
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <52A79D9B.9050207@gmail.com>

On 12/10/2013 01:26 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> Movie ratings.   EG G, PG, PG-13, etc.
> 
> That tells me only that you want short strings. Based on what you've
> said so far, your requirements can be met with code like this:
> 
>     movie_ratings = ["G", "PG", "PG-13", ?]
> 
> which doesn't need a library to access.
> 
> So, I ask again: What data do you want access to? Can you describe what
> you want your program to receive when it accesses movie ratings?

I'm not sure whether there's actual confusion here on your part, or
deliberate obtuseness.  From the other comments on this thread, it seems
some people at least understand what he wants to do and I believe he's
been pointed in the right direction.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Dec 10 18:34:19 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:34:19 +1100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <52A79D9B.9050207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wbo0omgas.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> writes:

> I'm not sure whether there's actual confusion here on your part, or
> deliberate obtuseness.

Not confusion, but a desire to avoid guesses based on very vague
requirements.

> From the other comments on this thread, it seems some people at least
> understand what he wants to do and I believe he's been pointed in the
> right direction.

Okay, but it would be good if the OP could clearly state what he wants
so the answers have some context for other readers.

Anyway, I'll bow out of this thread now.

-- 
 \     ?I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in |
  `\   my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.? ?Emo Philips |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 18:51:46 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:51:46 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <7wbo0omgas.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <52A79D9B.9050207@gmail.com>
 <7wbo0omgas.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rB00r5Kwis70oeuJ_Q1NNr3jybLBXX+-OOu_vCsoLRig@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au>wrote:

> Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > I'm not sure whether there's actual confusion here on your part, or
> > deliberate obtuseness.
>
> Not confusion, but a desire to avoid guesses based on very vague
> requirements.
>

What part of "movie ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13)" don't you understand?
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Dec 10 19:06:59 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:06:59 +1100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3fdmcna.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_qqJue5Wd7NVJQb58XJekuszEm0K1rhOWjdnxzWkebTAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wfvq0mozs.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <52A79D9B.9050207@gmail.com>
 <7wbo0omgas.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAGGBd_rB00r5Kwis70oeuJ_Q1NNr3jybLBXX+-OOu_vCsoLRig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w7gbcmesc.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:

> What part of "movie ratings (EG G, PG, PG-13)" don't you understand?

As stated, that example requirement is satisfied by a list of strings
?["G", "PG", "PG-13"]?. If your example of ?movie ratings? is a small
collection of short strings, then that's all I've got to go on before
needing to guess from a wide space of possible options.

I understand what MPAA movie ratings are, but that doesn't clarify what
*you* mean in terms of what data you want your program to access beyond
the strings ?G?, ?PG?, ?PG-13? themselves.

Anyway, it appears others have accurately guessed your intent from
information beyond what you presented in your request. But you'll
probably agree that's not a very reliable way of getting effective
answers.

-- 
 \        ?I was in Las Vegas, at the roulette table, having a furious |
  `\     argument over what I considered to be an odd number.? ?Steven |
_o__)                                                           Wright |
Ben Finney



From petite.abeille at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 16:07:44 2013
From: petite.abeille at gmail.com (Petite Abeille)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 22:07:44 +0100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>


On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> The IMDB flat text file probably came the closest, but it appears to have encoding issues; it's apparently nearly windows-1255, but not quite.

It's ISO-8859-1.

Both certificates.list.gz and mpaa-ratings-reasons.list.gz are rather straightforward to parse.

For the US, you will get something along these lines out of certificates.list.gz:

USA:(Banned)
USA:12
USA:AO
USA:Approved
USA:C
USA:E
USA:E10+
USA:G
USA:GP
USA:K-A
USA:M
USA:M/PG
USA:NC-17
USA:Not Rated
USA:Open
USA:PG
USA:PG-13
USA:Passed
USA:R
USA:T
USA:TV-14
USA:TV-G
USA:TV-MA
USA:TV-PG
USA:TV-Y
USA:TV-Y7
USA:Unrated
USA:X

And as mentioned, imdbpy handles all this out-of-the-box if you don?t feel like doing it yourself.






From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 18:50:38 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:50:38 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Petite Abeille <petite.abeille at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The IMDB flat text file probably came the closest, but it appears to
> have encoding issues; it's apparently nearly windows-1255, but not quite.
>
> It's ISO-8859-1.
>
Thanks - that reads well from CPython 3.3.

Now the question becomes: Why did chardet tell me it was windows-1255?  :)


> Both certificates.list.gz and mpaa-ratings-reasons.list.gz are rather
> straightforward to parse.
>
Sure, with an appropriate encoding.


> For the US, you will get something along these lines out of
> certificates.list.gz:
>
> USA:(Banned)
> USA:12
> USA:AO
> USA:Approved
> USA:C
> USA:E
> USA:E10+
> USA:G
> USA:GP
> USA:K-A
> USA:M
> USA:M/PG
> USA:NC-17
> USA:Not Rated
> USA:Open
> USA:PG
> USA:PG-13
> USA:Passed
> USA:R
> USA:T
> USA:TV-14
> USA:TV-G
> USA:TV-MA
> USA:TV-PG
> USA:TV-Y
> USA:TV-Y7
> USA:Unrated
> USA:X
>
> And as mentioned, imdbpy handles all this out-of-the-box if you don?t feel
> like doing it yourself.

But I believe imdbpy is 2.7 only.
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 19:07:10 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 00:07:10 +0000
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l88aba$qsm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 23:50, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> But I believe imdbpy is 2.7 only.
>

I guess it wouldn't be that difficult to run it through 2to3.  Try that 
and see what happens?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 22:30:42 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:30:42 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <l88aba$qsm$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l88aba$qsm$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rLiXKs=wrgHy6qEJTH-rUBJXAN8MbLTTsKQr4A9txJZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> On 10/12/2013 23:50, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>>
>> But I believe imdbpy is 2.7 only.
>>
>
> I guess it wouldn't be that difficult to run it through 2to3.  Try that
> and see what happens?
>

2to3 doesn't necessarily produce working code.  I've had better luck
porting to 3.x (while continuing to support 2.x) using a single codebase.
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~dstromberg/Intro-to-Python/Python%202%20and%203.pdf

That said, porting imdbpy to 3.x is more of a time commitment than I'm
looking for.  Now that I have an encoding that works with the MPAA text
files, I'll probably use that; that should be quick and painless, assuming
that difflib or similar can do the sort of fuzzy matching I'm hoping for.

BTW, I tried using metals ("meta ls", not multiple kinds of metal) for a
while, which I believe is based on imdbpy, but it was tracebacking quite a
bit - on 2.7.  I had to make a one line change to get it to use 2.7 instead
of 2.6; this suggests to me that metals and/or imdbpy aren't being
supported very actively.

I'd prefer to use something with an active community around it, but failing
that, I'd prefer to use something _small_ I write myself.
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From petite.abeille at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 13:24:00 2013
From: petite.abeille at gmail.com (Petite Abeille)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:24:00 +0100
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC151F2F-0E0C-47B6-A836-7FA08EC6A802@gmail.com>


On Dec 11, 2013, at 12:50 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> Now the question becomes: Why did chardet tell me it was windows-1255?  :)

As it says on the tin: chardet guesses the encoding of text files. The operative word is ?guesses?.



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec 11 13:35:17 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:35:17 -0500
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/10/13 6:50 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Petite Abeille
> <petite.abeille at gmail.com <mailto:petite.abeille at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Dec 10, 2013, at 6:25 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com
>     <mailto:drsalists at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>      > The IMDB flat text file probably came the closest, but it appears
>     to have encoding issues; it's apparently nearly windows-1255, but
>     not quite.
>
>     It's ISO-8859-1.
>
> Thanks - that reads well from CPython 3.3.
>
> Now the question becomes: Why did chardet tell me it was windows-1255?  :)

It probably told you it was Windows-1252 (I'm assuming the last 5 is a 
typo).

Windows-1252 is a super-set of ISO-8859-1, so any text that is correct 
ISO-8859-1 is also correct Windows-1252.  In addition, it's not uncommon 
to find text marked as ISO-8859-1 that in fact has characters that make 
it Windows-1252.


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:07:35 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:07:35 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pX4dL9fnFyYfUCUYqji6hamWmdssOs0bu0r=e0YDnxHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com>wrote:

> On 12/10/13 6:50 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> Now the question becomes: Why did chardet tell me it was windows-1255?  :)
>
> It probably told you it was Windows-1252 (I'm assuming the last 5 is a
> typo).
>
> Windows-1252 is a super-set of ISO-8859-1, so any text that is correct
> ISO-8859-1 is also correct Windows-1252.  In addition, it's not uncommon to
> find text marked as ISO-8859-1 that in fact has characters that make it
> Windows-1252.
>

 $ chardet mpaa-ratings-reasons.list
mpaa-ratings-reasons.list: windows-1255 (confidence: 0.97)

I'm aware that chardet is playing guessing games, though one would hope it
would guess well most of the time, and give a reasonable confidence rating.
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 18:24:01 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 23:24:01 GMT
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:07:35 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:

>  $ chardet mpaa-ratings-reasons.list
> mpaa-ratings-reasons.list: windows-1255 (confidence: 0.97)
> 
> I'm aware that chardet is playing guessing games, though one would hope
> it would guess well most of the time, and give a reasonable confidence
> rating. 

What reason do you have for thinking that Windows-1255 isn't a reasonable 
guess? If the bulk of the text is Latin-1 except perhaps for one or two 
Hebrew characters (or what chardet thinks are Hebrew characters), it may 
actually be a reasonable guess.

If it is a poor guess, perhaps you ought to report it to the chardet 
maintainers as a good example of a poor guess.


By the way, this forum is a text-only newsgroup and so-called "Rich 
Text" (actually HTML) posts are frowned upon because most people don't 
appreciate having to read gunk like this:

> <div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div
> class="gmail_quote"> ... <br>
> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
> 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div
> class="im"> ... <br></div></div></div></div>

If you can, would you please turn off rich text posting when you post 
here please?

Thank you.



-- 
Steven


From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:39:44 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:39:44 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:07:35 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> >  $ chardet mpaa-ratings-reasons.list
> > mpaa-ratings-reasons.list: windows-1255 (confidence: 0.97)
> >
> > I'm aware that chardet is playing guessing games, though one would hope
> > it would guess well most of the time, and give a reasonable confidence
> > rating.
>
> What reason do you have for thinking that Windows-1255 isn't a reasonable
> guess? If the bulk of the text is Latin-1 except perhaps for one or two
> Hebrew characters (or what chardet thinks are Hebrew characters), it may
> actually be a reasonable guess.
>

I get a traceback if I try to read the file as Windows-1255.  I don't get a
traceback if I read it as ISO-8859-1.


> If it is a poor guess, perhaps you ought to report it to the chardet
> maintainers as a good example of a poor guess.
>
I was considering that, and may do so.

I've also been wondering if ISO-8859-1 is just an octet-oriented codec, so
it'll read about anything.  There are clearly non-7-bit-ASCII characters in
the file that look like line noise in an mrxvt.

By the way, this forum is a text-only newsgroup and so-called "Rich
> Text" (actually HTML) posts are frowned upon because most people don't
> appreciate having to read gunk like this:
>
> > <div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div
> > class="gmail_quote"> ... <br>
> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
> > 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div
> > class="im"> ... <br></div></div></div></div>
>
> If you can, would you please turn off rich text posting when you post
> here please?
>
> Thank you.
>
Apologies.  I didn't realize gmail was doing this.   I had thought it would
only do so if I used the formatting options in the composer, but perhaps it
does so even when just typing text.

I formerly used MH; are you using MH?  There isn't a lot of e-mail programs
that don't do HTML anymore.  Even mutt can do HTML with very slight
configuration; it's actually quite powerful and ISTR it can do MH folders.

I found a "remove formatting" button in gmail's composer, and used it on
this message.  Does this message look like plain text?

I'm not really prepared to give up gmail's quick searching; I used to index
my e-mails using pyindex and dovecot, but happily I don't need to anymore.
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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec 11 20:01:44 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:01:44 -0500
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8b1tf$mqk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/11/13 6:39 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info
> <mailto:steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info>> wrote:
>
>     On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:07:35 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>      >  $ chardet mpaa-ratings-reasons.list
>      > mpaa-ratings-reasons.list: windows-1255 (confidence: 0.97)
>      >
>      > I'm aware that chardet is playing guessing games, though one
>     would hope
>      > it would guess well most of the time, and give a reasonable
>     confidence
>      > rating.
>
>     What reason do you have for thinking that Windows-1255 isn't a
>     reasonable
>     guess? If the bulk of the text is Latin-1 except perhaps for one or two
>     Hebrew characters (or what chardet thinks are Hebrew characters), it may
>     actually be a reasonable guess.
>
>
> I get a traceback if I try to read the file as Windows-1255.  I don't
> get a traceback if I read it as ISO-8859-1.
>
>     If it is a poor guess, perhaps you ought to report it to the chardet
>     maintainers as a good example of a poor guess.
>
> I was considering that, and may do so.
>
> I've also been wondering if ISO-8859-1 is just an octet-oriented codec,
> so it'll read about anything.  There are clearly non-7-bit-ASCII
> characters in the file that look like line noise in an mrxvt.

Both ISO-8859-1 and Windows-1255 are octet-oriented, I don't see why one 
would raise an exception when the other didn't.  Unless the exception 
isn't on the decode, but instead on your attempt to output the result. 
Can you show the full traceback you're seeing?

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:37:34 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:37:34 -0700
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <l8b1tf$mqk$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8b1tf$mqk$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=_1aqxug7s5_bz_GEs143HZwu+h_+1eepiw1ZETcAb+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>> I've also been wondering if ISO-8859-1 is just an octet-oriented codec,
>> so it'll read about anything.  There are clearly non-7-bit-ASCII
>> characters in the file that look like line noise in an mrxvt.
>
>
> Both ISO-8859-1 and Windows-1255 are octet-oriented, I don't see why one
> would raise an exception when the other didn't.  Unless the exception isn't
> on the decode, but instead on your attempt to output the result. Can you
> show the full traceback you're seeing?

There are gaps in CP 1255 (see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_page_1255), so I presume the file
contains one or more of those octets that don't map to anything at
all.


From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 22:52:20 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:52:20 -0800
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <l8b1tf$mqk$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8b1tf$mqk$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oFhNpQzD2HWFNgEFXbrHKOPx+ip4rzvcZ27X-1TVqLLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com>wrote:

> On 12/11/13 6:39 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info
>> <mailto:steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info>> wrote:
>>
>>     On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:07:35 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>>
>>      >  $ chardet mpaa-ratings-reasons.list
>>      > mpaa-ratings-reasons.list: windows-1255 (confidence: 0.97)
>>      >
>>      > I'm aware that chardet is playing guessing games, though one
>>     would hope
>>      > it would guess well most of the time, and give a reasonable
>>     confidence
>>      > rating.
>>
>>     What reason do you have for thinking that Windows-1255 isn't a
>>     reasonable
>>     guess? If the bulk of the text is Latin-1 except perhaps for one or
>> two
>>     Hebrew characters (or what chardet thinks are Hebrew characters), it
>> may
>>     actually be a reasonable guess.
>>
>>
>> I get a traceback if I try to read the file as Windows-1255.  I don't
>> get a traceback if I read it as ISO-8859-1.
>>
>>     If it is a poor guess, perhaps you ought to report it to the chardet
>>     maintainers as a good example of a poor guess.
>>
>> I was considering that, and may do so.
>>
>> I've also been wondering if ISO-8859-1 is just an octet-oriented codec,
>> so it'll read about anything.  There are clearly non-7-bit-ASCII
>> characters in the file that look like line noise in an mrxvt.
>>
>
> Both ISO-8859-1 and Windows-1255 are octet-oriented, I don't see why one
> would raise an exception when the other didn't.  Unless the exception isn't
> on the decode, but instead on your attempt to output the result. Can you
> show the full traceback you're seeing?
>

$ ./movie-ratings
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./movie-ratings", line 85, in <module>
    main()
  File "./movie-ratings", line 68, in main
    ratings =
get_ratings('/home/dstromberg/src/home-svn/movie-ratings/trunk/mpaa-ratings-reasons.list')
  File "./movie-ratings", line 52, in get_ratings
    for line in ratings_file:
  File "/usr/local/cpython-3.3/lib/python3.3/encodings/cp1255.py", line 23,
in decode
    return codecs.charmap_decode(input,self.errors,decoding_table)[0]
UnicodeDecodeError: 'charmap' codec can't decode byte 0xfc in position
1225: character maps to <undefined>

BTW, other than satisfying our respective curiosities, I consider this
project finished.  It's probably not getting ratings for my entire movie
collection, but it is getting them for a significant fraction, which is all
I was really looking for.  Now I know which ones are rated PG, so I can
decide whether to let my 8 year old watch them.

This is with cpython-3.3.

Thanks.  ^_^
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From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Dec 11 20:12:42 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:12:42 +1100
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?)
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wk3falvn9.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>

Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano <
> steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > By the way, this forum is a text-only newsgroup and so-called "Rich
> > Text" (actually HTML) posts are frowned upon [?]
> > If you can, would you please turn off rich text posting when you post
> > here please?
>
> Apologies. I didn't realize gmail was doing this. I had thought it
> would only do so if I used the formatting options in the composer, but
> perhaps it does so even when just typing text.

Thanks for taking measures to send messages in plain text.

> I found a "remove formatting" button in gmail's composer, and used it
> on this message. Does this message look like plain text?

Still sent with an HTML part, so some other change must be needed to
disable that.

> There isn't a lot of e-mail programs that don't do HTML anymore.

Many of the better mail clients allow the user to explicitly stop
rendering HTML (but still have it available, as Steven points out).

Disabling HTML in messages is a good idea: HTML rarely adds anything
useful to a message in a discussion forum, but it can cause the mail
program to do actions unwanted by the user (e.g. fetch images from
elsewhere, or run ECMAScript, or invoke HTML rendering bugs).

Plain text doesn't have those problems, which is why it's more courteous
to stop sending HTML messages in most cases.

Because it's inefficient to poll many recipients for whether their
system can work with HTML messages, avoiding sending HTML altogether is
especially advisable with multiple recipients, such as discussion
forums.

> I'm not really prepared to give up gmail's quick searching; I used to
> index my e-mails using pyindex and dovecot, but happily I don't need
> to anymore.

You will be pleased to know, then, that ?notmuch? is a client-side
system providing very quick email indexing and searching
<URL:http://notmuchmail.org/>.

Notmuch is available directly from several operating systems (e.g.
Debian) or install it yourself. It works with numerous existing mail
clients, and brings the significant advantage of organising one's email
by search, not by exclusive folders.

-- 
 \        ?Intellectual property is to the 21st century what the slave |
  `\                              trade was to the 16th.? ?David Mertz |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:31:30 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:31:30 -0700
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and
 Python?)
In-Reply-To: <7wk3falvn9.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wk3falvn9.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CALwzidkoTwK_cuidkhZ9u4RpGfy0rV_R2-h-QOCuxsj6jY6qig@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>> I found a "remove formatting" button in gmail's composer, and used it
>> on this message. Does this message look like plain text?
>
> Still sent with an HTML part, so some other change must be needed to
> disable that.

Check the default formatting in the settings, or perhaps instead of
"no signature" there is an empty signature selected that is adding
formatting?

>> There isn't a lot of e-mail programs that don't do HTML anymore.
>
> Many of the better mail clients allow the user to explicitly stop
> rendering HTML (but still have it available, as Steven points out).

Unfortunately, Gmail has recently moved away from the explicit toggle
and now only has that "Remove formatting" command, which will remove
any existing formatting from the draft but won't necessarily prevent
it from accidentally slipping back in.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 22:23:39 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:23:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and
 Python?)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3945.1386810776.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3945.1386810776.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c2985805-4e08-43f7-9b6b-5298f4913f4f@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 6:42:42 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> Dan Stromberg writes:

> > I found a "remove formatting" button in gmail's composer, and used it
> > on this message. Does this message look like plain text?

> Still sent with an HTML part, so some other change must be needed to
> disable that.

> > There isn't a lot of e-mail programs that don't do HTML anymore.

> Many of the better mail clients allow the user to explicitly stop
> rendering HTML (but still have it available, as Steven points out).

> Disabling HTML in messages is a good idea: HTML rarely adds anything
> useful to a message in a discussion forum, but it can cause the mail
> program to do actions unwanted by the user (e.g. fetch images from
> elsewhere, or run ECMAScript, or invoke HTML rendering bugs).

When you click on send/reply in gmail, there's a small down-triangle
next to the dustbin, inside which you will find a plain text option

The problem is that then your other mails (may) become plain text and
your friends/recipients will wonder whether you've entered a time-machine
and gone back to 1990!!

Many people find it simpler to just use Google groups.  It also has its
problems (as do all methods!) but in sum its the easiest option to use.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 23:27:03 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:27:03 +1100
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and
 Python?)
In-Reply-To: <c2985805-4e08-43f7-9b6b-5298f4913f4f@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3945.1386810776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2985805-4e08-43f7-9b6b-5298f4913f4f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr5Yo3zRQGYMNFQBo75+Ub+LnBK2UQoMhLXn3v_kjV_-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:23 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> When you click on send/reply in gmail, there's a small down-triangle
> next to the dustbin, inside which you will find a plain text option
>
> The problem is that then your other mails (may) become plain text and
> your friends/recipients will wonder whether you've entered a time-machine
> and gone back to 1990!!

Or maybe they'll wonder if you've just magically changed your font
settings to be exactly what they most want to read, because you're no
longer sending text that's too large / too small for them to
comfortably read.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 06:05:35 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 11:05:35 GMT
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and
 Python?)
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3945.1386810776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2985805-4e08-43f7-9b6b-5298f4913f4f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a9987e$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:23:39 -0800, rusi wrote:

> The problem is that then your other mails (may) become plain text and
> your friends/recipients will wonder whether you've entered a
> time-machine and gone back to 1990!!

Not everything that's changed since 1990 has been an improvement.


> Many people find it simpler to just use Google groups.  It also has its
> problems (as do all methods!) but in sum its the easiest option to use.

How ironic. After mocking those of us who prefer to send and receive 
plain text, you then recommend that people use a delivery mechanism which 
sends plain text.



-- 
Steven


From hayesstw at telkomsa.net  Thu Dec 12 08:36:48 2013
From: hayesstw at telkomsa.net (Steve Hayes)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:36:48 +0200
Subject: Disable HTML in forum messages (was: Movie (MPAA) ratings and
 Python?)
References: <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3945.1386810776.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2985805-4e08-43f7-9b6b-5298f4913f4f@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9987e$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <eueja9h2qdj0uo8tbihh62u7ibh673lo10@4ax.com>

On 12 Dec 2013 11:05:35 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:23:39 -0800, rusi wrote:
>
>> The problem is that then your other mails (may) become plain text and
>> your friends/recipients will wonder whether you've entered a
>> time-machine and gone back to 1990!!
>
>Not everything that's changed since 1990 has been an improvement.

And vice versa. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk


From torriem at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 01:22:14 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:22:14 -0700
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A95616.4000402@gmail.com>

On 12/11/2013 04:39 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> If you can, would you please turn off rich text posting when you post
>> here please?

> Apologies.  I didn't realize gmail was doing this.   I had thought it would
> only do so if I used the formatting options in the composer, but perhaps it
> does so even when just typing text.

>From what I can see gmail is producing a multipart message that has a
plaint text part and an html part.  This is what gmail normally does and
as far as I know it's RFC-compliant and that's what gmail always does.


From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 12 08:56:19 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:56:19 -0500
Subject: Movie (MPAA) ratings and Python?
In-Reply-To: <52A95616.4000402@gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_pn4Mv8R0QuueG093YR82a3+EM2Sy+mF5d1aJ1D25yoeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2CDEC558-B896-402C-8F70-A3089A5EC93D@gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_qOi=rahykpRwTFmXQMnKb4sLd-8T4jGYM6kF_R=9U29w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ab8p$m61$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3936.1386803257.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a8f410$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAGGBd_rSWKHb_BVprf2zL+GaNyvBjjQor7-i6W0t4JndMx+V4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A95616.4000402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.4113649883647253038@news.gmane.org>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:22:14 -0700, Michael Torrie 
<torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> From what I can see gmail is producing a multipart message that has 
a
> plaint text part and an html part.  This is what gmail normally 
does and
> as far as I know it's RFC-compliant and that's what gmail always 
does.

"Always does" doesn't mean it's a good idea on a text newsgroup. 

Very often the pretty text in the html part is mangled in the text 
part. Most often this is just indentation,  but for Python that's a 
biggie. It also means that we don't all see the same thing. 

Including both makes the download slower and more expensive. 

Some text newsreaders refuse to show anything if there's an html 
part.  Mine (groundhog on android) apparently shows the text part if 
it follows the html part.

-- 
DaveA



From info at egenix.com  Tue Dec 10 04:43:54 2013
From: info at egenix.com (eGenix Team: M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:43:54 +0100
Subject: ANN: eGenix mx Base Distribution 3.2.7 (mxDateTime, mxTextTools, etc.)
Message-ID: <52A6E25A.70107@egenix.com>

________________________________________________________________________

ANNOUNCING

                   eGenix.com mx Base Distribution

             mxDateTime, mxTextTools, mxProxy, mxURL, mxUID,
                  mxBeeBase, mxStack, mxQueue, mxTools

                            Version 3.2.7


                Open Source Python extensions providing
                     important and useful services
                        for Python programmers.

This announcement is also available on our web-site for online reading:
http://www.egenix.com/company/news/eGenix-mx-Base-Distribution-3.2.7-GA.html

________________________________________________________________________

ABOUT

The eGenix.com mx Base Distribution for Python is a collection of
professional quality software tools which enhance Python's usability
in many important areas such as fast text searching, date/time
processing and high speed data types.

The tools have a proven record of being portable across many Unix and
Windows platforms. You can write applications which use the tools on
Windows and then run them on Unix platforms without change due to the
consistent platform independent interfaces.

Contents of the distribution:

 * mxDateTime - Easy to use Date/Time Library for Python
 * mxTextTools - Fast Text Parsing and Processing Tools for Python
 * mxProxy - Object Access Control for Python
 * mxBeeBase - On-disk B+Tree Based Database Kit for Python
 * mxURL - Flexible URL Data-Type for Python
 * mxUID - Fast Universal Identifiers for Python
 * mxStack - Fast and Memory-Efficient Stack Type for Python
 * mxQueue - Fast and Memory-Efficient Queue Type for Python
 * mxTools - Fast Everyday Helpers for Python

The package also include a number of helpful smaller modules in the
mx.Misc subpackage, such as mx.Misc.ConfigFile for config file parsing
or mx.Misc.CommandLine to quickly write command line applications in
Python.

All available packages have proven their stability and usefulness in
many mission critical applications and various commercial settings all
around the world.

For more information, please see the distribution page:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/

________________________________________________________________________

NEWS

The 3.2.7 release of the eGenix mx Base Distribution is the latest
release of our open-source Python extensions. It includes these fixes
and enhancements:

Fixes
-----

 * mxBeeBase: Fixed a problem with using larger BeeDict keysizes on
   64-bit platforms. These now work for keysizes between 25 and 659
   characters as well. Also extended the possible keysizes for 32-bit
   platform to 670 characters. Thanks to Andrey Rzhetsky for pointing
   us to the problem.

 * mx.Misc.FileLock: Fixed a typo in a FileLock class name.

eGenix mx Base Distribution 3.2.0 was release on 2012-08-28. Please
see the eGenix mx Base Distribution 3.2.0 announcement for new
features in the 3.2 major release:

http://www.egenix.com/company/news/eGenix-mx-Base-Distribution-3.2.0-GA.html

For a full list of changes, please refer to the eGenix mx Base
Distribution change log and the change logs of the various included
Python packages.

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/changelog.html

________________________________________________________________________

UPGRADING

We encourage all users to upgrade to this latest eGenix mx Base
Distribution release.

If you are upgrading from eGenix mx Base 3.1.x, please see the eGenix
mx Base Distribution 3.2.0 release notes for details on what has
changed since the 3.1 major release.

http://www.egenix.com/company/news/eGenix-mx-Base-Distribution-3.2.0-GA.html

For a full list of changes, please refer to the eGenix mx Base Distribution
change log at

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/changelog.html

and the change logs of the various included Python packages.

________________________________________________________________________

LICENSE

The eGenix mx Base package is distributed under the eGenix.com Public
License 1.1.0 which is an Open Source license similar to the Python
license. You can use the packages in both commercial and non-commercial
settings without fee or charge.

The package comes with full source code

________________________________________________________________________

DOWNLOADS

The download archives and instructions for installing the packages can
be found on the eGenix mx Base Distribution page:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/

As always, we are providing pre-built binaries for all common
platforms: Windows 32/64-bit, Linux 32/64-bit, FreeBSD 32/64-bit, Mac
OS X 32/64-bit. Source code archives are available for installation on
all other Python platforms, such as Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, etc.

To simplify installation in Zope/Plone and other egg-based systems, we
have also precompiled egg distributions for all platforms. These are
available on our own PyPI-style index server for easy and automatic
download. Please see the download instructions for details:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/#Download

Whether you are using a prebuilt package or the source distribution,
installation is a simple "python setup.py install" command in all
cases. The only difference is that the prebuilt packages do not
require a compiler or the Python development packages to be installed.

________________________________________________________________________

SUPPORT

Commercial support for this product is available from eGenix.com.
Please see

    http://www.egenix.com/services/support/

for details about our support offerings.

________________________________________________________________________

MORE INFORMATION

For more information on the eGenix mx Base Distribution, documentation
and installation notes, please visit our web-site:

    http://www.egenix.com/products/python/mxBase/

About Python (http://www.python.org/):

    Python is an object-oriented Open Source programming language
    which runs on all modern platforms. By integrating ease-of-use,
    clarity in coding, enterprise application connectivity and rapid
    application design, Python establishes an ideal programming
    platform for today's IT challenges.

About eGenix (http://www.egenix.com/):

    eGenix is a software project, consulting and product company
    focusing on expert project services and professional quality
    products for companies, Python users and developers.

Enjoy,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 10 2013)
>>> Python Projects, Consulting and Support ...   http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2013-12-10: Released eGenix mx Base 3.2.7 ...     http://egenix.com/go51
2013-12-06: Released eGenix PyRun 1.3.1 ...       http://egenix.com/go50

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 06:35:21 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:05:21 +0530
Subject: Permission for contribution: http://bugs.python.org/issue19940
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wish to make contribution to Python source code. I have studied the
developers guide and made myself familiar with mercurial. I wish to start
of with some doc bugs as this will give me insight into
how the whole process(review, tests, patches) works. Is it okay if to take:

http://bugs.python.org/issue19940.


Will update the bug report once you guys are fine with it. My platform will
primarily be Linux.

Background:

I have worked with runtime analysis tools, MPI, OpenMP and now currently
working on Java.
Let me know if there are areas where I can be of help to you. Thanks for
the maintaining this wonderful language.

-- 
Thanks
Gudge
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/attachments/20131210/e3d76c2d/attachment.html>

From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Dec 10 06:59:04 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:59:04 +0000
Subject: Permission for contribution: http://bugs.python.org/issue19940
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A70208.80103@timgolden.me.uk>

On 10/12/2013 11:35, shankha wrote:
> I wish to make contribution to Python source code. I have studied the
> developers guide and made myself familiar with mercurial. I wish to
> start of with some doc bugs as this will give me insight into
> how the whole process(review, tests, patches) works. Is it okay if to take:
> 
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19940.
> 
> 
> Will update the bug report once you guys are fine with it. My platform
> will primarily be Linux.


> Thanks
> Gudge

Welcome Gudge, and thanks for wanting to contribute. We're a fairly open
organisation, so you don't need anyone's permission to start
contributing: just add your comments or your patch to the issue you want
to work on.

The core-mentorship mailing list might be of use to you: it is
specifically aimed at people wanting help with contributing to Python.
It has special conditions to make it more friendly to people who might
be shy of looking foolish on a public mailing list. Feel free to subscribe:

  https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/core-mentorship

(see also http://pythonmentors.com/ which acts as a landing page for the
list)

Good luck

TJG


From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Tue Dec 10 07:03:14 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:03:14 +0000
Subject: Permission for contribution: http://bugs.python.org/issue19940
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A70302.9060200@timgolden.me.uk>

On 10/12/2013 11:35, shankha wrote:
> I wish to make contribution to Python source code. I have studied the
> developers guide and made myself familiar with mercurial. I wish to
> start of with some doc bugs as this will give me insight into
> how the whole process(review, tests, patches) works. Is it okay if to take:
> 
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19940.


Having just glanced at that issue, I would point out that there's been a
lot of development around the ssl module for the 3.4 release, so you
definitely want to confirm the issue against the hg tip to ensure it
still applies.

TJG


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Dec 10 13:39:33 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:39:33 -0500
Subject: Permission for contribution: http://bugs.python.org/issue19940
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qHPQ-ZUjrxRRYRCAo5t2s00YJ-+ULpbmTesA2=pH4YtdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l87n4r$p1c$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/10/2013 6:35 AM, shankha wrote:
> I wish to make contribution to Python source code. I have studied the
> developers guide and made myself familiar with mercurial. I wish to
> start of with some doc bugs as this will give me insight into
> how the whole process(review, tests, patches) works. Is it okay if to take:
>
> http://bugs.python.org/issue19940.

Follow the suggestion to join the core-mentorship list. I will just add 
here that issues are 'assigned' for review and commitment to one of the 
core developers with commit rights to the python.org repository. Anyone 
can submit a patch to the tracker. It is ok to post that you are working 
on an issue, if indeed you are. Perhaps about half the commits involve 
contributions from non-core developers.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From harish.barvekar at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 08:35:09 2013
From: harish.barvekar at gmail.com (harish.barvekar at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 05:35:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, July 20, 2009 11:28:53 PM UTC+5:30, tvashtar wrote:
> On Jul 20, 4:42?pm, Nike <nike... at gmail.com> wrote:
> > hi!
> > ?It's looks like a ssl error . Under the following step to help u :
> > ? 1. takes a simple code to confirm your pupose without ssl protocol.
> > ? 2. to confirm python version and extended libs work well
> > ? 3. to confirm ssl work well.
> >
> > goog luck!
> >
> > nikekoo
> 
> I've reduced my code to the following:
> 
> import urllib2
> 
> p = "https://user:pass at myproxy:port"
> proxy_handler = urllib2.ProxyHandler({"https": p})
> urllib2.install_opener(urllib2.build_opener(proxy_handler))
> request = urllib2.Request( "https://groups.google.com")
> response = urllib2.urlopen(request)
> 
> and it is now failing with:
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "D:\p4\depot\Development\HEAD\Build\ReleaseSystem\DownloadSystem
> \test.py", line 12, in <module>
>     response = urllib2.urlopen(request)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 121, in urlopen
>     return _opener.open(url, data)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 379, in open
>     response = self._open(req, data)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 397, in _open
>     '_open', req)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 358, in _call_chain
>     result = func(*args)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 1115, in https_open
>     return self.do_open(httplib.HTTPSConnection, req)
>   File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 1082, in do_open
>     raise URLError(err)
> urllib2.URLError: <urlopen error Tunnel connection failed: 407 Proxy
> Authentication Required>
> 
> I thought the proxy_handler should take care of the authentication?
> 
> Thanks for your help

Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in https request. Please suggest how to proceed further


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 08:47:27 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 00:47:27 +1100
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrCxQrJptSmrxVQvycxbVjwMufr8JiWiKGPYHShp59uBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in https request. Please suggest how to proceed further

You're responding to something from 2009. It's highly likely things
have changed.

Does the same code cause an error in Python 2.7? That would be the
first thing to check.

Also: You appear to be using Google Groups, which is the Mos Eisley of
the newsgroup posting universe. You'll do far better to instead use
some other means of posting, such as the mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

It's probably a good idea also to search the bug tracker before
posting. It may well be that this has been fixed, in which case the
tracker issue would tell you when the fix went out. Of course, it may
also state that it's not a bug, in which case you'd know why.

http://bugs.python.org/

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 09:06:19 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:06:19 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrCxQrJptSmrxVQvycxbVjwMufr8JiWiKGPYHShp59uBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrCxQrJptSmrxVQvycxbVjwMufr8JiWiKGPYHShp59uBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8774p$5hg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 13:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in https request. Please suggest how to proceed further
>
> You're responding to something from 2009. It's highly likely things
> have changed.
>

Says who?  Sadly IMHO this has been one of the worst aspects of Python 
development.  I've seen 10 year old bugs happily sitting on the bug 
tracker.  Thankfully that is slowly changing.  The core mentorship 
program is helping, plus the gradual reduction in the number of versions 
that need supporting as 2.6 is now out of support and we move towards 
3.4.  However there are still 4275 open issues on the bug tracker. 
Anyone up to help out, the pay and perks are really good? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 09:14:15 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 01:14:15 +1100
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <l8774p$5hg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrCxQrJptSmrxVQvycxbVjwMufr8JiWiKGPYHShp59uBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8774p$5hg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqNUVRAcjNAUgzJJQW4LmS8DVbMrqMj2aND_vUoRvnY0Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 10/12/2013 13:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in
>>> https request. Please suggest how to proceed further
>>
>>
>> You're responding to something from 2009. It's highly likely things
>> have changed.
>>
>
> Says who?  Sadly IMHO this has been one of the worst aspects of Python
> development.  I've seen 10 year old bugs happily sitting on the bug tracker.
> Thankfully that is slowly changing.  The core mentorship program is helping,
> plus the gradual reduction in the number of versions that need supporting as
> 2.6 is now out of support and we move towards 3.4.  However there are still
> 4275 open issues on the bug tracker. Anyone up to help out, the pay and
> perks are really good? :)

There've been two minor versions since the version cited in the post
(2.5), not counting Python 3 at all. It's definitely worth rechecking
on 2.7 or 3.3, to see if the same still occurs. (Or, of course, to
read the tracker issue, which in this case was known and needn't be
searched for, a fact that I missed noticing when I went reading.) Yes,
four years' worth of bug fixes does make it at least somewhat likely
that something's changed.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 09:54:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:54:35 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqNUVRAcjNAUgzJJQW4LmS8DVbMrqMj2aND_vUoRvnY0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmrCxQrJptSmrxVQvycxbVjwMufr8JiWiKGPYHShp59uBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8774p$5hg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmqNUVRAcjNAUgzJJQW4LmS8DVbMrqMj2aND_vUoRvnY0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l879v9$bv8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 14:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 10/12/2013 13:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in
>>>> https request. Please suggest how to proceed further
>>>
>>>
>>> You're responding to something from 2009. It's highly likely things
>>> have changed.
>>>
>>
>> Says who?  Sadly IMHO this has been one of the worst aspects of Python
>> development.  I've seen 10 year old bugs happily sitting on the bug tracker.
>> Thankfully that is slowly changing.  The core mentorship program is helping,
>> plus the gradual reduction in the number of versions that need supporting as
>> 2.6 is now out of support and we move towards 3.4.  However there are still
>> 4275 open issues on the bug tracker. Anyone up to help out, the pay and
>> perks are really good? :)
>
> There've been two minor versions since the version cited in the post
> (2.5), not counting Python 3 at all. It's definitely worth rechecking
> on 2.7 or 3.3, to see if the same still occurs. (Or, of course, to
> read the tracker issue, which in this case was known and needn't be
> searched for, a fact that I missed noticing when I went reading.) Yes,
> four years' worth of bug fixes does make it at least somewhat likely
> that something's changed.
>
> ChrisA
>

How many minor versions since this was created on 2002-01-16 at 04:56 
http://bugs.python.org/issue504219  ?  The issue originally referenced 
is closed, this is still open.  Age on the bug tracker is no guarantee 
of anything, except that the issue exists.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 08:48:09 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:48:09 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8762n$n5o$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 13:35, harish.barvekar at gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 20, 2009 11:28:53 PM UTC+5:30, tvashtar wrote:
>> On Jul 20, 4:42 pm, Nike <nike... at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> hi!
>>>   It's looks like a ssl error . Under the following step to help u :
>>>    1. takes a simple code to confirm your pupose without ssl protocol.
>>>    2. to confirm python version and extended libs work well
>>>    3. to confirm ssl work well.
>>>
>>> goog luck!
>>>
>>> nikekoo
>>
>> I've reduced my code to the following:
>>
>> import urllib2
>>
>> p = "https://user:pass at myproxy:port"
>> proxy_handler = urllib2.ProxyHandler({"https": p})
>> urllib2.install_opener(urllib2.build_opener(proxy_handler))
>> request = urllib2.Request( "https://groups.google.com")
>> response = urllib2.urlopen(request)
>>
>> and it is now failing with:
>>
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "D:\p4\depot\Development\HEAD\Build\ReleaseSystem\DownloadSystem
>> \test.py", line 12, in <module>
>>      response = urllib2.urlopen(request)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 121, in urlopen
>>      return _opener.open(url, data)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 379, in open
>>      response = self._open(req, data)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 397, in _open
>>      '_open', req)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 358, in _call_chain
>>      result = func(*args)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 1115, in https_open
>>      return self.do_open(httplib.HTTPSConnection, req)
>>    File "C:\Python25\lib\urllib2.py", line 1082, in do_open
>>      raise URLError(err)
>> urllib2.URLError: <urlopen error Tunnel connection failed: 407 Proxy
>> Authentication Required>
>>
>> I thought the proxy_handler should take care of the authentication?
>>
>> Thanks for your help
>
> Is this issue fixed. I am also facing the same issue of tunneling in https request. Please suggest how to proceed further
>

Please read the whole history of this here 
http://bugs.python.org/issue1424152

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 10:48:52 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 07:48:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>

On 12/10/2013 06:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
> Also: You appear to be using Google Groups, which is the Mos Eisley of
> the newsgroup posting universe. You'll do far better to instead use
> some other means of posting, such as the mailing list:
 
Using Google Groups is also fine.  I and many other posters here
use it.  Chris and some others here dislike Google Groups and want 
everyone to not use it, but that is their personal opinion.

If Google Groups is most convenient for you please feel free to
continue using it.  You might want to take a look at this page 
which describes how to reduce some of things that annoy people 
like Chris:

  https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 11:22:47 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:22:47 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l87f4m$fmv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 15:48, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 06:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  <harish.barvekar at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also: You appear to be using Google Groups, which is the Mos Eisley of
>> the newsgroup posting universe. You'll do far better to instead use
>> some other means of posting, such as the mailing list:
>
> Using Google Groups is also fine.  I and many other posters here
> use it.  Chris and some others here dislike Google Groups and want
> everyone to not use it, but that is their personal opinion.
>
> If Google Groups is most convenient for you please feel free to
> continue using it.  You might want to take a look at this page
> which describes how to reduce some of things that annoy people
> like Chris:
>
>    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>

There is no "you might want to" about it.  There are two options here, 
either read and action the page so we don't see double spaced crap 
amongst other things, use another tool, or don't post.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:49:20 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:49:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 9:52:47 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 10/12/2013 15:48, rurpy wrote:
> > On 12/10/2013 06:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  harish.barvekar wrote:
> >> Also: You appear to be using Google Groups, which is the Mos Eisley of
> >> the newsgroup posting universe. You'll do far better to instead use
> >> some other means of posting, such as the mailing list:
> > Using Google Groups is also fine.  I and many other posters here
> > use it.  Chris and some others here dislike Google Groups and want
> > everyone to not use it, but that is their personal opinion.
> > If Google Groups is most convenient for you please feel free to
> > continue using it.  You might want to take a look at this page
> > which describes how to reduce some of things that annoy people
> > like Chris:
> >    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

> There is no "you might want to" about it.  There are two options here, 
> either read and action the page so we don't see double spaced crap 
> amongst other things, use another tool, or don't post.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand 
binary and those who dont.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:54:46 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 03:54:46 +1100
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpnD8ANyUfZ3-w-tBXmN=v1YdH7KH-sj_tSi+bAW75yEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:49 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand
> binary and those who dont.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand Gray
Code, those who don't, and those who confuse it with binary.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 11:58:05 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 16:58:05 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l87h6r$arp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 16:49, rusi wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 9:52:47 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 10/12/2013 15:48, rurpy wrote:
>>> On 12/10/2013 06:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:35 AM,  harish.barvekar wrote:
>>>> Also: You appear to be using Google Groups, which is the Mos Eisley of
>>>> the newsgroup posting universe. You'll do far better to instead use
>>>> some other means of posting, such as the mailing list:
>>> Using Google Groups is also fine.  I and many other posters here
>>> use it.  Chris and some others here dislike Google Groups and want
>>> everyone to not use it, but that is their personal opinion.
>>> If Google Groups is most convenient for you please feel free to
>>> continue using it.  You might want to take a look at this page
>>> which describes how to reduce some of things that annoy people
>>> like Chris:
>>>     https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>
>> There is no "you might want to" about it.  There are two options here,
>> either read and action the page so we don't see double spaced crap
>> amongst other things, use another tool, or don't post.
>
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand
> binary and those who dont.
>

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand that 
google groups sends out double spaced crap and those who don't.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From invalid at invalid.invalid  Tue Dec 10 12:12:12 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:12:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f6aa5743-0de6-4e01-8123-3f854aea4d07@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3839.1386694496.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l87i1c$ded$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-10, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:49 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand
>> binary and those who dont.
>
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand Gray
> Code, those who don't, and those who confuse it with binary.

Let me pause and reflect on that for a moment...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! All of life is a blur
                                  at               of Republicans and meat!
                              gmail.com            


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 11:59:53 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:59:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>

On 12/10/2013 09:22 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 10/12/2013 15:48, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> [...]
> There is no "you might want to" about it.  There are two options here, 
> either read and action the page so we don't see double spaced crap 
> amongst other things, use another tool, or don't post.

Mark is one of the resident trolls here.  Among his other traits 
is his delusion that he is Lord High Commander of this list.
Like with other trolls, the best advice is to ignore him (which
I'm not doing this once as a public service).



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 12:05:49 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:05:49 +0000
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l87hlb$h58$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 16:59, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 09:22 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 10/12/2013 15:48, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> [...]
>> There is no "you might want to" about it.  There are two options here,
>> either read and action the page so we don't see double spaced crap
>> amongst other things, use another tool, or don't post.
>
> Mark is one of the resident trolls here.  Among his other traits
> is his delusion that he is Lord High Commander of this list.
> Like with other trolls, the best advice is to ignore him (which
> I'm not doing this once as a public service).
>

That is entirely correct.  I also spend a lot of my time defending the 
indefensible, like defending people who use crap tools to send double 
spaced crap around the whole world.  Not.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From drobinow at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 12:36:50 2013
From: drobinow at gmail.com (David Robinow)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:36:50 -0500
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3XjbxLyV_aMhSBqd83n0OqZ0X+S5xHy_bk4SopsvZ6u+YNFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:59 AM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 09:22 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
...
> Mark is one of the resident trolls here.  Among his other traits
> is his delusion that he is Lord High Commander of this list.
> Like with other trolls, the best advice is to ignore him (which
> I'm not doing this once as a public service).
Please don't do this. I can decide for myself whether I prefer to read
Mark's posts.
[By the way, I don't consider Mark Lawrence a troll. He's just a guy
who can't help himself. I've chosen not to listen any more but others
are entitled to their own choices.]+


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 10 13:15:55 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 10:15:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Problem when applying Patch from issue1424152 to get https over
 authenticating proxies working with urllib2 in Python 2.5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3842.1386697012.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <8fe2ad78-0bd4-40d8-909c-1d2784441e3c@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com>
 <58f2558c-33fe-4ee0-9a0a-2563374be47c@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>
 <446a3c42-6d86-4003-85be-3e5d8a23b268@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>
 <a57d1f96-20f4-4c12-b106-0dae360f65bf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3825.1386683251.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4ca2bd6a-715c-41e0-83ee-b61caa847912@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3832.1386692595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3ad41081-172d-42c1-bf5a-b333e02d0fb6@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3842.1386697012.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e7b27a0f-f835-41fe-98f1-450560975ed4@googlegroups.com>

On 12/10/2013 10:36 AM, David Robinow wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 11:59 AM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 12/10/2013 09:22 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> ...
>> Mark is one of the resident trolls here.  Among his other traits
>> is his delusion that he is Lord High Commander of this list.
>> Like with other trolls, the best advice is to ignore him (which
>> I'm not doing this once as a public service).
>
> Please don't do this. I can decide for myself whether I prefer to read
> Mark's posts.

I didn't post it for you, I posted it for the OP who
may be new here (or may not, I didn't check) and for 
others from Google Groups who may erroneously think
that Mark/Chris et.al. have some kind of authority or
speak for everyone here.
 
Nor was it a suggestion to not read Mark's posts but
a suggestion to not add to the flamage.

> [By the way, I don't consider Mark Lawrence a troll. He's just a guy
> who can't help himself. I've chosen not to listen any more but others
> are entitled to their own choices.]+


From dan.rose at parker.com  Tue Dec 10 11:21:32 2013
From: dan.rose at parker.com (dan.rose at parker.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:21:32 -0500
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
Message-ID: <OFB2A9D916.5E7B7BF9-ON85257C3D.00591239-85257C3D.0059C626@parker.com>

I am running PYTHON 2.7.3 and executing a PYTHON program that uses 
multi-threading.  I am running this on a 64-bit Windows 2008 R2 server 
(Service Pack 1).

Three months ago, I was able to execute this program just fine.  I ran the 
program and opened Task Manager and verified that the program successfully 
obtained all of the multiple threads it requested.

Now, when I go to run this same program (no changes to the program), I am 
getting this message:

Python 2.7.3 (default, Apr 10 2012, 23:24:47) [MSC v.1500 64 bit (AMD64)] 
on win32
Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
>>> ================================ RESTART 
================================
>>> 
<multiprocessing.queues.Queue object at 0x00000000042309E8>
>>> 

I look in Task Manager and I don't see any threads for PYTHON.

So, I am hoping that somebody in this forum could help me out.

What is it that I should look for or turn on to find out what is blocking 
this program from creating the threads.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Daniel Rose
 IT Technical Analyst, MSS Development
 Parker Hannifin Corporation
 dan.rose at parker.com
 216-896-3351

"PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
cooperation."
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From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 11:41:24 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 08:41:24 -0800
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <OFB2A9D916.5E7B7BF9-ON85257C3D.00591239-85257C3D.0059C626@parker.com>
References: <OFB2A9D916.5E7B7BF9-ON85257C3D.00591239-85257C3D.0059C626@parker.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oyY8=-_Tuz4DY58c3sctuL97K1+7eCDo4maJx+oeWqTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 8:21 AM, <dan.rose at parker.com> wrote:

> I am running PYTHON 2.7.3 and executing a PYTHON program that uses
> multi-threading.  I am running this on a 64-bit Windows 2008 R2 server
> (Service Pack 1).
>
> Three months ago, I was able to execute this program just fine.  I ran the
> program and opened Task Manager and verified that the program successfully
> obtained all of the multiple threads it requested.
>
> Now, when I go to run this same program (no changes to the program), I am
> getting this message:
>
> Python 2.7.3 (default, Apr 10 2012, 23:24:47) [MSC v.1500 64 bit (AMD64)]
> on win32
> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
> >>> ================================ RESTART
> ================================
> >>>
> <multiprocessing.queues.Queue object at 0x00000000042309E8>
> >>>
>
> I look in Task Manager and I don't see any threads for PYTHON.
>

It looks to me like you may be using multiprocessing rather than
multithreading...

Multiprocessing uses multiple processes with shared memory.  Multithreading
uses multiple Program Counter's in the same process.
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From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 10 11:51:23 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:51:23 -0500
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-F64C06.11512310122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 dan.rose at parker.com wrote:

> "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
> privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
> of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
> recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
> then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
> cooperation."

Dan,

Pursuant to your legal notice, I hereby inform you that I received your 
message in error.  Unfortunately, I am unable to delete it from my 
system since I do not control my ISP's news server (and Time Machine has 
probably backed up a copy of the local temp file anyway).  Please advise 
on how I should proceed, so that I am fully in compliance with your 
information confidentiality policy.


From walterhurry at lavabit.com  Tue Dec 10 12:57:50 2013
From: walterhurry at lavabit.com (Walter Hurry)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:57:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:21:32 -0500, dan.rose wrote:

> "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
> privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose of
> conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended recipient,
> please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete the
> information from your system. Thank you for your cooperation."

Regretfully I am unable to delete the message from my Usenet provider's 
servers.

However, in accordance with your request I have expunged the body of your 
request so as to avoid disseminating it.



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 05:37:22 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 10:37:22 GMT
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
Message-ID: <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:57:50 +0000, Walter Hurry wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:21:32 -0500, dan.rose wrote:
> 
>> "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
>> privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose of
>> conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended recipient,
>> please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete
>> the information from your system. Thank you for your cooperation."
> 
> Regretfully I am unable to delete the message from my Usenet provider's
> servers.
> 
> However, in accordance with your request I have expunged the body of
> your request so as to avoid disseminating it.

When did this forum become so intolerant of even the tiniest, most minor 
breaches of old-school tech etiquette? Have we really got nothing better 
to do than to go on the war path over such trivial issues? Out of five 
responses to the Original Poster's email, there was *one* helpful reply, 
followed by no fewer than four people playing "Stacks on the n00b" making 
the same comment about being unable to delete the message. I'm sure all 
four of you think you are ever such wits, but you're only half right.

Walter, you and I both know that such legal disclaimers are pointless and 
unenforceable. But you are guilty of misrepresenting what it says, and 
hence make yourself out to be a Grade A Dick. The disclaimer does not say 
"Everybody who receives this message must delete it from servers they 
don't control." That truly would display galactic-level stupidity. But it 
doesn't say that.

As a subscriber to the mailing list and/or newsgroup which Dan's message 
was sent to, you *are* an intended recipient. The disclaimer says that 
those who are *not* intended recipients should delete it from THEIR 
systems, not that those who *are* intended recipients should delete it 
from systems belonging to OTHERS. Duh.

As programmers, we should be able to correctly interpret the boolean 
logic in the disclaimer. Surely you know how to read, and interpret, a 
set of plain English functional requirements? 

- It doesn't say that the message "is" confidential, it says it *may* be, 
which is a correct statement regardless of the actual confidentially of 
the message.

- It doesn't demand that the message "must" be used only for certain 
purposes, but only that it *should* be so used -- again, a statement of 
intention which is correct.

- Lastly, it doesn't pretend to be able to compel the recipient into any 
particular action, but merely *requests* that they not be a dick about 
confidential or privileged emails which they receive by mistake. And even 
thanks them in advance for their (presumed) cooperation.

We shouldn't be giving a newcomer to this group a hard time over 
something which (1) he has little control over, (2) which isn't actually 
factually incorrect in any way, and (3) in the grand scheme of things 
isn't that bad a breach of etiquette.

I'm really getting cheesed off at the intolerance and nastiness being 
displayed on this list. I'm not aiming this specifically at you, Walter, 
you're not even close to one of the worst culprits. This isn't 
comp.lang.c, if you want a forum for arrogant elitists who look for any 
petty excuse to bash newcomers, take it elsewhere. I've been a regular 
here for over seven years, possibly longer, and the level of 
unpleasantness is at an all-time high, and the level of usefulness is 
lower than I've ever seen it before.



-- 
Steven


From square.steve at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 06:25:20 2013
From: square.steve at gmail.com (Steve Simmons)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:25:20 +0100
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
 <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52A84BA0.5020409@gmail.com>


On 11/12/2013 11:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> When did this forum become so intolerant of even the tiniest, most 
> minor breaches of old-school tech etiquette? 
[... Giant Snip...]

Well said Steven.  I've only been member of this list for (maybe) a 
year, mainly lurking to learn about Python and I also feel that the 
balance between quality answers and sniping/arguing has definitely 
tilted in the wrong direction.  I'd very much like to see the original 
mood restored.

SteveS


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 21:00:38 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:00:38 -0500
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
 <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-3A8729.21003811122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> When did this forum become so intolerant of even the tiniest, most minor 
> breaches of old-school tech etiquette? Have we really got nothing better 
> to do than to go on the war path over such trivial issues? Out of five 
> responses to the Original Poster's email, there was *one* helpful reply, 
> followed by no fewer than four people playing "Stacks on the n00b" making 
> the same comment about being unable to delete the message. I'm sure all 
> four of you think you are ever such wits, but you're only half right.

I believe I started off the chain of responses you're referring to.  I 
meant it semi-humorously, but also with a point.  It is clear it turned 
out to be harmful, and for that I apologize.

I share your dismay at where this group is going, and feel bad that I 
inadvertently moved it further in that direction.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 23:26:28 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:26:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <roy-3A8729.21003811122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
 <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3A8729.21003811122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <2bdede86-0287-4349-801a-a125a0ed7ece@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:30:38 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

> > When did this forum become so intolerant of even the tiniest, most minor 
> > breaches of old-school tech etiquette? Have we really got nothing better 
> > to do than to go on the war path over such trivial issues? Out of five 
> > responses to the Original Poster's email, there was *one* helpful reply, 
> > followed by no fewer than four people playing "Stacks on the n00b" making 
> > the same comment about being unable to delete the message. I'm sure all 
> > four of you think you are ever such wits, but you're only half right.

> I believe I started off the chain of responses you're referring to.  I 
> meant it semi-humorously, but also with a point.  It is clear it turned 
> out to be harmful, and for that I apologize.

Sniping at someone -- especially a newcomer -- for a piece of technical
irrelevantia is unfortunate. However your semi-humorous pointing out
was good because it shows that all posting methods have their hiccups:

html mail
undesired and nonsensical footers
reply/reply-all mixups
repeated posts
long and double-spaced lines
others Ive missed

Reminds me that sometime ago when GG was habitually double-posting,
Steven started quadruple-posting, giving some of us a rare leg-pulling
opportunity :D

> I share your dismay at where this group is going, and feel bad that I 
> inadvertently moved it further in that direction.

Unnecessary and uncalled for irascibility is of course a degradation.

But (from my pov) a bunch of people -- especially so-called techies --
unable to distinguish the following 3 is a much bigger degradation.

1 Problems caused by conscious malefic intent
2 Kids/noobs/ignoramuses/immature just being themselves
3 Problems of communication technology

Conflating 1,3 with 2 will drive many of them (2s) away which is a
significant loss for the community


From dwightdhutto at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:39:47 2013
From: dwightdhutto at gmail.com (David Hutto)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:39:47 -0500
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <2bdede86-0287-4349-801a-a125a0ed7ece@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
 <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3A8729.21003811122013@news.panix.com>
 <2bdede86-0287-4349-801a-a125a0ed7ece@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vVgJWMW1Av47LkBV2stRtG=aN0JKYLa-J0d6irGySZ-cOsLw@mail.gmail.com>

If you really want to have a discussion on multi-threading, then look at
quantum bits/computers, and let's see where python can go from the real
future of prototyping language, to the expert in it.



On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:26 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:30:38 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
> > > When did this forum become so intolerant of even the tiniest, most
> minor
> > > breaches of old-school tech etiquette? Have we really got nothing
> better
> > > to do than to go on the war path over such trivial issues? Out of five
> > > responses to the Original Poster's email, there was *one* helpful
> reply,
> > > followed by no fewer than four people playing "Stacks on the n00b"
> making
> > > the same comment about being unable to delete the message. I'm sure all
> > > four of you think you are ever such wits, but you're only half right.
>
> > I believe I started off the chain of responses you're referring to.  I
> > meant it semi-humorously, but also with a point.  It is clear it turned
> > out to be harmful, and for that I apologize.
>
> Sniping at someone -- especially a newcomer -- for a piece of technical
> irrelevantia is unfortunate. However your semi-humorous pointing out
> was good because it shows that all posting methods have their hiccups:
>
> html mail
> undesired and nonsensical footers
> reply/reply-all mixups
> repeated posts
> long and double-spaced lines
> others Ive missed
>
> Reminds me that sometime ago when GG was habitually double-posting,
> Steven started quadruple-posting, giving some of us a rare leg-pulling
> opportunity :D
>
> > I share your dismay at where this group is going, and feel bad that I
> > inadvertently moved it further in that direction.
>
> Unnecessary and uncalled for irascibility is of course a degradation.
>
> But (from my pov) a bunch of people -- especially so-called techies --
> unable to distinguish the following 3 is a much bigger degradation.
>
> 1 Problems caused by conscious malefic intent
> 2 Kids/noobs/ignoramuses/immature just being themselves
> 3 Problems of communication technology
>
> Conflating 1,3 with 2 will drive many of them (2s) away which is a
> significant loss for the community
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Best Regards,
David Hutto
*CEO:* *http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com <http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com>*
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 05:48:47 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 10:48:47 GMT
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l87kmu$f2h$1@news.albasani.net>
 <52a84061$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3A8729.21003811122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52a9948f$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:00:38 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

> I believe I started off the chain of responses you're referring to.  I 
> meant it semi-humorously, but also with a point.  It is clear it turned 
> out to be harmful, and for that I apologize.
> 
> I share your dismay at where this group is going, and feel bad that I
> inadvertently moved it further in that direction.

Apology accepted. We're all only human. Except for 88888 Dihedral.



-- 
Steven


From feedthetroll at gmx.de  Tue Dec 10 14:43:04 2013
From: feedthetroll at gmx.de (feedthetroll at gmx.de)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:43:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ba94b74e-2a5a-4e2a-9d84-c3f5a314446c@googlegroups.com>

Am Dienstag, 10. Dezember 2013 17:21:32 UTC+1 schrieb dan.... at parker.com:
> "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be confidential or
> privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for the purpose
> of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an intended
> recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message and
> then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
> cooperation."

As the above clause demands I hereby inform you, that I am - presumably  - not an intended recipient, because I am - as far as I know - not in any business with whatever Parker.
Nevertheless I am very sorry, but I am not able to delete the message. Neither from the usenet nor from Google-Groups.


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 05:50:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 10:50:56 GMT
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
References: <mailman.3837.1386693350.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a8438f$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:21:32 -0500, dan.rose wrote:

> I am running PYTHON 2.7.3 and executing a PYTHON program that uses
> multi-threading.  I am running this on a 64-bit Windows 2008 R2 server
> (Service Pack 1).

Hi Dan, and despite the emails from a few others, welcome. My further 
comments below, interleaved with your questions.


> Three months ago, I was able to execute this program just fine.  I ran
> the program and opened Task Manager and verified that the program
> successfully obtained all of the multiple threads it requested.

Sounds great, but unfortunately you don't actually show us the program, 
so there's very little we can say about it.

If possible, please show us the actual program. If not, please try to 
show us a simplified version which still displays the fault. If you can't 
do that, at least tell us what result you expect, and what result you 
actually get.

Are you sure you're talking about multi-threading? Do you perhaps mean 
multi-processing? I'm not a Windows user, but I would expect that only 
independent processes show up in Task Manager, not threads within a 
single process.


> Now, when I go to run this same program (no changes to the program), I
> am getting this message:

If nothing has changed with the program, it's unlikely that the behaviour 
will have changed. Since the behaviour has changed, something must be 
different. If not in the program itself, perhaps something in it's 
environment.


> Python 2.7.3 (default, Apr 10 2012, 23:24:47) [MSC v.1500 64 bit
> (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "copyright", "credits" or "license()" for more information.
>>>> ================================ RESTART
> ================================
>>>> 
> <multiprocessing.queues.Queue object at 0x00000000042309E8>

How are you running the program? If you are using IDLE, the first step 
when you run into problems is to *not* use IDLE. Instead of running the 
program through the interactive IDLE environment, I recommend you try 
running it directly in Python via the command line and see if the error 
persists. Do you know how to do this or do you need help?

Lastly, Dan, if you don't mind I'd like to make a couple of requests. 
This forum is both an email mailing list and a text-only Usenet news 
group, were so-called "Rich Text" (actually HTML) emails are frowned 
upon. If you don't mind, please disable "Rich Text" when sending messages 
to this group, as many people get annoyed having to deal with posts like 
yours that include content like:

<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">

Also, if there's any way to drop the legal disclaimer when sending here, 
that too would be appreciated.

Thanks for your cooperation, and feel free to ask any further questions, 
hopefully you'll get a few more useful responses next time.


Regards,



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 10 13:08:58 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 18:08:58 +0000
Subject: Trouble with Multi-threading
In-Reply-To: <OFB2A9D916.5E7B7BF9-ON85257C3D.00591239-85257C3D.0059C626@parker.com>
References: <OFB2A9D916.5E7B7BF9-ON85257C3D.00591239-85257C3D.0059C626@parker.com>
Message-ID: <l87lbp$25p$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 10/12/2013 16:21, dan.rose at parker.com wrote:
> * 216-896-3351* "PLEASE NOTE: The preceding information may be
> confidential or privileged. It only should be used or disseminated for
> the purpose of conducting business with Parker. If you are not an
> intended recipient, please notify the sender by replying to this message
> and then delete the information from your system. Thank you for your
> cooperation."
>

Which Parker?  If my memory serves me correctly there was Malcolm and 
his brothers Stephen and Keith, and sisters Sandra and Yvonne and I'm 
certain there were more.  Plus there was the counsins David and 
Jennifer.  How do I know if I'm an intended recipient if you don't tell 
me?  I also can't delete the message.  Hum, anything I've forgotten?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From info at wingware.com  Tue Dec 10 14:12:41 2013
From: info at wingware.com (Wingware)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 14:12:41 -0500
Subject: ANN: Wing IDE 5.0.1 released
Message-ID: <52A767A9.7000107@wingware.com>

Hi,

Wingware has released version 5.0.1 of Wing IDE, our integrated development
environment designed specifically for the Python programming language.

Wing IDE includes a professional quality code editor with vi, emacs, and 
other
key bindings, auto-completion, call tips, refactoring, context-aware 
auto-editing,
a powerful graphical debugger, version control, unit testing, search, 
and many
other features.  For details see http://wingware.com/

Changes in this minor release include:

* Support for Python 3.4beta1+
* Fix file type registration on OS X
* Fix potential segfault after using tab to move from field to field
* Fix creating and renaming snippets and snippets tool drop down menu
* Fix exception when closing windows and failure to quit on win32
* Optimize message tool, which could substantially slow down the IDE
* Fix problems setting custom colors via the Editor -> Syntax Coloring 
preferences
* Updates and corrections in French localization (thanks to Jean Sanchez)
* Fix intermittant failure to include all selected files in a version 
control operation
* Fix switching to alphabetizing file tabs and keeping active tab 
visible when there are 2+ splits
* 21 other bug fixes

For details see http://wingware.com/pub/wingide/5.0.1/CHANGELOG.txt

New features in Wing 5 include:

* Now runs native on OS X
* Draggable tools and editors
* Configurable toolbar and editor & project context menus
* Optionally opens a different sets of files in each editor split
* Lockable editor splits
* Optional Python Turbo completion (context-appropriate completion on 
all non-symbol keys)
* Sharable color palettes and syntax highlighting configurations
* Auto-editing is on by default (except some operations that have a 
learning curve)
* Named file sets
* Sharable launch configurations
* Asynchronous I/O in Debug Probe and Python Shell
* Expanded and rewritten tutorial
* Support for Python 3.4

For more information on what's new in Wing 5, see 
http://wingware.com/wingide/whatsnew

Free trial: http://wingware.com/wingide/trial
Downloads: http://wingware.com/downloads
Feature matrix: http://wingware.com/wingide/features
Sales: http://wingware.com/store/purchase
Upgrades: https://wingware.com/store/upgrade

Questions?  Don't hesitate to email us at support at wingware.com.

Thanks,

-- 

Stephan Deibel
Wingware | Python IDE
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com


From buchanae at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 14:43:59 2013
From: buchanae at gmail.com (buchanae at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:43:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Alternate initializer pattern?
Message-ID: <f9e8f936-0f80-452f-95d7-fe92995d8eca@googlegroups.com>

Hello.

I've been pondering an alternate initializer pattern that I've attempted to document here:

https://gist.github.com/abuchanan/7882317


Instead of using classmethod, I invent a new descriptor "alt_init" that creates an instance and passes it to the decorated function as the first argument (where classmethod would pass the class object).

I haven't used it in TheRealWord(tm), and maybe it's just a crappy Factory pattern (or is it Builder? or maybe Argile?), and I'm sure it has downsides, but I wanted to share anyway, to see what kind of feedback it would produce.

Thanks!


From solipsis at pitrou.net  Tue Dec 10 17:09:04 2013
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 22:09:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ANN: pathlib 0.97 released
Message-ID: <loom.20131210T225505-431@post.gmane.org>


Hello,

As you may know, pathlib has recently been accepted for inclusion into
the Python 3.4 standard library.  You can view the new module's
documentation here: http://docs.python.org/dev/library/pathlib.html

As part of the inclusion process, many API changes were done to the
original pathlib API (*) so as to satisfy the python-dev community's 
comments and complaints. Yet, the PyPI version of pathlib (0.8) was still 
featuring the legacy API.

(*) INCLUDING COMPATIBILITY-BREAKING CHANGES

I am now releasing version 0.97 of pathlib, which brings the standalone
PyPI module up-to-date with the standard library version. The version
number reflects this. It isn't yet "officially" stable, since Python 3.4
hasn't been released yet; I plan to do a standalone 1.0 release by the
time Python 3.4 is released.

If you are not under Python 3.4:

Install
-------

Download from https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pathlib/
or use `pip` or `easy_install`.
(be sure to *force* the upgrade if pathlib 0.8 or earlier is already
installed!)

Documentation
-------------

Standalone documentation is at https://pathlib.readthedocs.org/

Changes from 0.8
-----------------

The API changes are too long to list; if you are already a pathlib user,
I would recommend you read the documentation and find out what has changed 
for you (your code will likely break loudly, anyway!).


Regards

Antoine.




From tameritoke2 at arcor.de  Tue Dec 10 19:02:20 2013
From: tameritoke2 at arcor.de (Tamer Higazi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 02:02:20 +0200
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
Message-ID: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>

Hi people!

Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the entire 
dictionary ?!

Let us assume I have:

{'Amanda':'Power','Amaly':'Higgens','Joseph':'White','Arlington','Black','Arnold','Schwarzenegger'}

I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...

I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a builtin 
method to get me these key/values on the fly.

Why do I ask you?! I am working with the ZODB Database, where I make use 
of a PersistentDict and PersistentList, and I want


I would thank you for a short reply.



Tamer


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec 10 22:01:51 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 03:01:51 +0000
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <52A7D59F.8080502@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 11/12/2013 00:02, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
>
> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the entire
> dictionary ?!
>
> Let us assume I have:
>
> {'Amanda':'Power','Amaly':'Higgens','Joseph':'White','Arlington','Black','Arnold','Schwarzenegger'}
>
> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
>
> I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
> I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a builtin
> method to get me these key/values on the fly.
>
> Why do I ask you?! I am working with the ZODB Database, where I make use
> of a PersistentDict and PersistentList, and I want
>
>
> I would thank you for a short reply.
>
There isn't a special shortcut because it's already a short journey. :-)



From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Tue Dec 10 22:15:10 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 21:15:10 -0600
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <20131210211510.46cf9148@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-11 02:02, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the
> entire dictionary ?!
> 
> Let us assume I have:
> 
> {'Amanda':'Power','Amaly':'Higgens','Joseph':'White','Arlington','Black','Arnold','Schwarzenegger'}
                                                                  ^
Assuming this is a colon...

> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
> 
> I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
> I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a
> builtin method to get me these key/values on the fly.
> 
> I would thank you for a short reply.

No.

If you want a longer reply, keep reading. :-)

There are a couple ways you could get the results you want, but it
depends on what you want to test.  If you just want to test the
presence/absence of something matching your pattern, you can bail
early with

  if any(k.startswith(s) or v.startswith(s) for k,v in d.iteritems()):
    yep()
  else:
    nope()

which will only pull items from the iterator until the first one is
found.

If you want to find all the results, you have to look at all the
results, either at search time, or at the time of dictionary
construction (although in this case, you'd also need to know the
search term at the time of construction).  That might look something
like

  d = {}
  interesting = []

  def is_interesting(term, *args):
    return any(s.startswith(term) for s in args)

  for key, value, other in data_source:
    if is_interesting(term, key, value):
      interesting.append((key, value))
    d[key] = value

  for key, value in interesting:
    just_iterating_over_those_not_all(key, value)


Alternatively, you could use a different data-structure, something
like (untested)

  SENTINEL = object()
 
  def build_structure(i):
    # "i" is some iterable of key/value pairs
    # such as from {}.iteritems()
    root = {}
    for key, value in i:
      loc = root
      for letter in key:
        loc = loc.setdefault(letter, {})
      loc[SENTINEL] = value
    return root
  
  def just_matches(root, pattern):
    if pattern:
      first_letter = pattern[0]
      if first_letter in root:
        for result in just_matches(root[first_letter], pattern[1:]):
          yield result
    else:
      # show all sub-items
      for k,v in root.iteritems():
        if k is SENTINEL:
          yield v
        else:
          for result in just_matches(v, None):
            yield result
  
  s = build_structure(data.iteritems())
  # print repr(s)
  for result in just_matches(s, "Ar"):
    print result

I'm not sure this is a good trade-off, but it does limit your
iteration to only those that begin with your chosen search term,
rather than all items in the dictionary once the initial
data-structure is built.

(I think in the span of 20 minutes, I managed to recreate a college
homework assignment that took me nearly a week in C)

-tkc









From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Tue Dec 10 22:24:30 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:24:30 +1100
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <7w38m0m5n5.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Tamer Higazi <tameritoke2 at arcor.de> writes:

> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the
> entire dictionary ?!

(A language note: you may be unaware that ??!? does not connote a simple
question, but outrage or incredulity or some other indignant expression.
This implies not a polite query, but more a harsh demand for the other
person to explain.

I think your questions will communicate better punctuated simply with
???.)

> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...

    surnames_by_givenname = {
            "Amanda": "Power",
            "Amaly": "Higgens",
            "Joseph": "White",
            "Arlington": "Black",
            "Arnold": "Schwarzenegger",
            }
    items_whose_keys_start_with_Ar = [
            (key, value)
            for (key, value) in surnames_by_givenname.items()
            if key.startswith("Ar")]

> I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
> I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a builtin
> method to get me these key/values on the fly.

Not a method on the dict, but a method on the string and a list
comprehension (or, if you prefer, use a generator expression or dict
comprehension, etc.).

> Why do I ask you?! I am working with the ZODB Database, where I make
> use of a PersistentDict and PersistentList, and I want

I'll be interested to know the rest of that paragraph, to know whether
the above list comprehension meets your constraints.

-- 
 \     ?I was in the first submarine. Instead of a periscope, they had |
  `\               a kaleidoscope. ?We're surrounded.?? ?Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From davea at davea.name  Tue Dec 10 23:47:10 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:47:10 -0500
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 02:02:20 +0200, Tamer Higazi 
<tameritoke2 at arcor.de> wrote:
> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the 
entire 
> dictionary ?!

> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...

Your wording is so ambiguous that each respondent has guessed 
differently. 

I'm guessing that you want all key/value pairs for which the key 
begins with the two letters 'Ar' I'm guessing further that your 
objection to iterating the entire dictionary is not code size but 
performance. 

If both assumptions are valid then I'll point out that a dict has no 
ordering to it. If you want an approach that doesn't iterate over the 
entire structure you'll need to store the data differently.  For 
example if you stored all the keys in a sorted list you could use 
bisect.

-- 
DaveA



From tameritoke2 at arcor.de  Wed Dec 11 05:07:08 2013
From: tameritoke2 at arcor.de (Tamer Higazi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:07:08 +0200
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52A8394C.5070402@arcor.de>

Hi Dave!

You were absolutely right.
I don't want to iterate the entire dict to get me the key/values

Let us say this dict would have 20.000 entries, but I want only those 
with "Aa" to be grabed.
Those starting with these 2 letters would be only 5 or 6 then it would 
take a lot of time.

In which way would you prefer to store the data, and which functions or 
methods would you use effectively to accomplish this task ?

I deeply apologize of not defining the question more defined. English is 
not my mother tongue.
I'll do my best next time.


Thanks



Tamer

On 11.12.2013 06:47, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 02:02:20 +0200, Tamer Higazi 
> <tameritoke2 at arcor.de> wrote:
>> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the 
> entire
>> dictionary ?!
>
>> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
>
> Your wording is so ambiguous that each respondent has guessed 
> differently.
> I'm guessing that you want all key/value pairs for which the key 
> begins with the two letters 'Ar' I'm guessing further that your 
> objection to iterating the entire dictionary is not code size but 
> performance.
> If both assumptions are valid then I'll point out that a dict has no 
> ordering to it. If you want an approach that doesn't iterate over the 
> entire structure you'll need to store the data differently.  For 
> example if you stored all the keys in a sorted list you could use bisect.
>



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec 11 07:10:52 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:10:52 +0100
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org> <52A8394C.5070402@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <l89knd$r1f$1@ger.gmane.org>

Tamer Higazi wrote:

> Hi Dave!
> 
> You were absolutely right.
> I don't want to iterate the entire dict to get me the key/values
> 
> Let us say this dict would have 20.000 entries, but I want only those
> with "Aa" to be grabed.
> Those starting with these 2 letters would be only 5 or 6 then it would
> take a lot of time.
> 
> In which way would you prefer to store the data, and which functions or
> methods would you use effectively to accomplish this task ?

Well, Dave already gave one approach:

[Dave Angel]
> For example if you stored all the keys in a sorted list you could use 
> bisect.

See also http://docs.python.org/dev/library/bisect.html

Another option would be to use a database. Assuming the table 'lookup' has 
two columns 'key' and 'value' you'd get the matching rows with

select key, value from lookup where key like 'Aa%';

A lightweight database that comes with Python is sqlite:

http://docs.python.org/dev/library/sqlite3.html
http://www.sqlite.org/



From tameritoke2 at arcor.de  Wed Dec 11 07:48:58 2013
From: tameritoke2 at arcor.de (Tamer Higazi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:48:58 +0200
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <l89knd$r1f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org> <52A8394C.5070402@arcor.de>
 <l89knd$r1f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52A85F3A.9050407@arcor.de>

Hi Peter!

I got the message....
I know that I could have used a database. I am using for a good reason 
the ZODB Database.

I am making things in the ZODB Database persistent, I don't like to 
distribute among machines.
Making use of sqlite, won't give me the possibility to scale as the 
amount of data and requests are high.

I am thinking of scalability. Of course I could use the MongoDB as well. 
But this is from my side for THESE KIND of things not desired.
I am thinking of making Files through objects in the ZODB Database 
persistent, and relational databases on long time make me sick....


I will workout a bselect sollution for my problem!


Thanks for your support.



Tamer



On 11.12.2013 14:10, Peter Otten wrote:
> Tamer Higazi wrote:
>
>> Hi Dave!
>>
>> You were absolutely right.
>> I don't want to iterate the entire dict to get me the key/values
>>
>> Let us say this dict would have 20.000 entries, but I want only those
>> with "Aa" to be grabed.
>> Those starting with these 2 letters would be only 5 or 6 then it would
>> take a lot of time.
>>
>> In which way would you prefer to store the data, and which functions or
>> methods would you use effectively to accomplish this task ?
> Well, Dave already gave one approach:
>
> [Dave Angel]
>> For example if you stored all the keys in a sorted list you could use
>> bisect.
> See also http://docs.python.org/dev/library/bisect.html
>
> Another option would be to use a database. Assuming the table 'lookup' has
> two columns 'key' and 'value' you'd get the matching rows with
>
> select key, value from lookup where key like 'Aa%';
>
> A lightweight database that comes with Python is sqlite:
>
> http://docs.python.org/dev/library/sqlite3.html
> http://www.sqlite.org/
>



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 08:31:52 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 05:31:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>

Reordering to un-top-post.

> On 11.12.2013 06:47, Dave Angel wrote:
> > On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 02:02:20 +0200, Tamer Higazi  wrote:
> >> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the 
> > entire
> >> dictionary ?!
> >> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
> > Your wording is so ambiguous that each respondent has guessed 
> > differently.
> > I'm guessing that you want all key/value pairs for which the key 
> > begins with the two letters 'Ar' I'm guessing further that your 
> > objection to iterating the entire dictionary is not code size but 
> > performance.
> > If both assumptions are valid then I'll point out that a dict has no 
> > ordering to it. If you want an approach that doesn't iterate over the 
> > entire structure you'll need to store the data differently.  For 
> > example if you stored all the keys in a sorted list you could use bisect.



On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:37:08 PM UTC+5:30, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi Dave!

> You were absolutely right.
> I don't want to iterate the entire dict to get me the key/values

> Let us say this dict would have 20.000 entries, but I want only those 
> with "Aa" to be grabed.
> Those starting with these 2 letters would be only 5 or 6 then it would 
> take a lot of time.

> In which way would you prefer to store the data, and which functions or 
> methods would you use effectively to accomplish this task ?


The classic data structure for this is the trie:
General idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
In python:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11015320/how-to-create-a-trie-in-python/


> I deeply apologize of not defining the question more defined. English is 
> not my mother tongue.
> I'll do my best next time.

English no issue.

But better not to top-post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 09:46:12 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:46:12 -0500
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-DA38A7.09461211122013@news.panix.com>

In article <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> The classic data structure for this is the trie:
> General idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
> In python:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11015320/how-to-create-a-trie-in-python/

I agree that a trie fits the problem description well.  If I were coding 
this up in C or C++, that's probably the data structure I'd use, with 
each node containing an array of pointers to nodes, and the array 
indexed by the ascii value of the next character (this doesn't translate 
well to unicode).  Lookup speed would be awesomely fast.

The problem is, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in Python.  The 
cited implementation uses dicts at each level.  By the time you've done 
that, you might as well just throw all the data into one big dict and 
use the full search string as the key.  It would be a lot less code, and 
probably run faster.

Still, as an exercise in learning about a useful (and under-appreciated) 
data structure, implementing this as a trie sounds like a wonderful idea.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 10:08:16 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <roy-DA38A7.09461211122013@news.panix.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-DA38A7.09461211122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <a9a20a2f-a0e5-477c-b999-8fc1118d42d7@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:16:12 PM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  rusi  wrote:

> > The classic data structure for this is the trie:
> > General idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
> > In python:
> > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11015320/how-to-create-a-trie-in-python/

> I agree that a trie fits the problem description well.  If I were coding 
> this up in C or C++, that's probably the data structure I'd use, with 
> each node containing an array of pointers to nodes, and the array 
> indexed by the ascii value of the next character (this doesn't translate 
> well to unicode).  Lookup speed would be awesomely fast.

> The problem is, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in Python.  The 
> cited implementation uses dicts at each level.  By the time you've done 
> that, you might as well just throw all the data into one big dict and 
> use the full search string as the key.  It would be a lot less code, and 
> probably run faster.

> Still, as an exercise in learning about a useful (and under-appreciated) 
> data structure, implementing this as a trie sounds like a wonderful idea.

I was going to say that Steven's

data = {}
for c in "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ":
    data[c] = {} 

is really the first step of the trie approach

except that instead of 

key = "Aardvark"
data[key[0]][key] = "some value"

he would need 
data[key[0]][key[1:] = "some value"

The catch is keys of length 1 eg "A"
Which makes the fully general (recursively unfolded) version easier
to write, though with all those zillions of dicts probably not very efficient.

Finitizing the trie into fixed small prefixes with leaves containing standard 
dicts looks sensible (to me without and testing of either efficiency or 
readability!)

The short prefix problem however remains

Of course there are other tricks possible:
If we know that the data is case-insensitive alphabetic ASCII* we can just 
normalize the data with 

def norm(s): return [ord(c.upper()) -ord('A') for c in s]

then
>>> norm("aBcD")
[0, 1, 2, 3]

and instead of dicts we can use 26-length lists

* O me O my! Ive used the terrible A-word!
Now RUN before the trolls get us!


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 11 10:42:53 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:42:53 -0600
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <roy-DA38A7.09461211122013@news.panix.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-DA38A7.09461211122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131211094253.5c82ed59@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-11 09:46, Roy Smith wrote:
> The problem is, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense in Python.
> The cited implementation uses dicts at each level.  By the time
> you've done that, you might as well just throw all the data into
> one big dict and use the full search string as the key.  It would
> be a lot less code, and probably run faster.

You're right if the search term is a whole word, a single
dict-to-result works ideally. However, the OP asked about prefixes, so
the Python implementation I provided uses a dict-of-nested-dicts which
allows any arbitrary prefix, and then iterates over only the subset of
those that match.

If you need O(length-of-prefix) iteration of all results, I believe
that's the best way algorithm to use (implementation details could
differ for a more space-efficient structure perhaps; normalization
might help reduce dict-entries).

It's a specialized use-case, and doesn't have the O(1) lookup for
exact-matches (that's just a special case of prefix=word with no
sub-iteration, so would be O(length-of-search-word)).	

-tkc





From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 12:19:48 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:19:48 -0800
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <14D5EC89-0DFC-46D3-B9B9-EE6C468DB34E@gmail.com>


On Dec 11, 2013, at 5:31 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> The classic data structure for this is the trie:
> General idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
> In python:
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11015320/how-to-create-a-trie-in-python/

My thoughts exactly!

If you wade through the comments there, someone has done a more-than-naive implementation here:

https://github.com/kmike/marisa-trie

The write up makes it look pretty favorable as well for performance (scroll 2/3s down to the Benchmarks section).





From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 13:09:34 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:09:34 +0000
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <14D5EC89-0DFC-46D3-B9B9-EE6C468DB34E@gmail.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <3efc283f-419d-41b6-ad20-c2901c3b9f78@googlegroups.com>
 <14D5EC89-0DFC-46D3-B9B9-EE6C468DB34E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8a9nt$11a$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 17:19, Travis Griggs wrote:
>
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 5:31 AM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The classic data structure for this is the trie:
>> General idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trie
>> In python:
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11015320/how-to-create-a-trie-in-python/
>
> My thoughts exactly!
>
> If you wade through the comments there, someone has done a more-than-naive implementation here:
>
> https://github.com/kmike/marisa-trie
>
> The write up makes it look pretty favorable as well for performance (scroll 2/3s down to the Benchmarks section).
>

http://kmike.ru/python-data-structures/ from the author of the above is 
well worth a read.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 08:44:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 13:44:56 GMT
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a86c57$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 12:07:08 +0200, Tamer Higazi wrote:

> Hi Dave!
> 
> You were absolutely right.
> I don't want to iterate the entire dict to get me the key/values
> 
> Let us say this dict would have 20.000 entries, but I want only those
> with "Aa" to be grabed.
> Those starting with these 2 letters would be only 5 or 6 then it would
> take a lot of time.

What do you mean by "a lot of time"?

Here is a small test. I set up a dict with 456976 keys, and then iterate 
over them in just over a quarter of a second on my (old, slow) computer. 
Here is the code I use:



data = {}
letters = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz"
for a in letters.upper():
    for b in letters:
        for c in letters:
            for d in letters:
                key = a + b + c + d
                data[key] = None

print(len(data))

count = 0
with Timer():
    for key in data:
        if key.startswith("Aa"):
            count += 1

print("Found %d keys starting with 'Aa'")



The Timer() function is not standard to Python, but you can find it here:

http://code.activestate.com/recipes/577896


Are you sure that just using a normal dict will be too slow?


> In which way would you prefer to store the data, and which functions or
> methods would you use effectively to accomplish this task ?

I would use a dict, and iterate over the keys, until such time that I new 
that iterating was the bottle-neck causing my code to be too slow. Until 
I knew that absolutely for sure, I would not optimize.

If necessary, I would consider having 26 dicts, one for each initial 
letter:

data = {}
for c in "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ":
    data[c] = {}

then store keys in the particular dict. That way, if I wanted keys 
starting with Aa, I would only search the A dict, not the B dict, C dict, 
etc.

key = "Aardvark"
data[key[0]][key] = "some value"



-- 
Steven


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 11 09:30:51 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:30:51 -0600
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52a86c57$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de> <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a86c57$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20131211083051.65e3d501@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-11 13:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> If necessary, I would consider having 26 dicts, one for each
> initial letter:
> 
> data = {}
> for c in "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ":
>     data[c] = {}
> 
> then store keys in the particular dict. That way, if I wanted keys 
> starting with Aa, I would only search the A dict, not the B dict, C
> dict, etc.

That's what the convoluted code does that I put at the end of my
previous post in this thread, only to the Nth degree (the outermost
dict has the first letter which links to a dictionary of the 2nd
level/letter, to the 3rd level/letter, etc).

-tkc


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:02:42 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:02:42 -0700
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <20131211083051.65e3d501@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a86c57$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <20131211083051.65e3d501@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <CALwzidnSkiZ--jawug=dBZYxfqPTVA=xSVLeckctwfWDNdmhrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Tim Chase
<python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 2013-12-11 13:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> If necessary, I would consider having 26 dicts, one for each
>> initial letter:
>>
>> data = {}
>> for c in "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ":
>>     data[c] = {}
>>
>> then store keys in the particular dict. That way, if I wanted keys
>> starting with Aa, I would only search the A dict, not the B dict, C
>> dict, etc.
>
> That's what the convoluted code does that I put at the end of my
> previous post in this thread, only to the Nth degree (the outermost
> dict has the first letter which links to a dictionary of the 2nd
> level/letter, to the 3rd level/letter, etc).

This is what I did not so long ago when writing a utility for
typeahead lookup, except that to save some space and time I only
nested the dicts as deeply as there were still multiple entries.  As
an example of what the data structure looked like:

lookups = {
    'a': {
        'l': {
            'g': 'algebra',
            'p': 'alphanumeric',
        },
        's': 'asterisk',
    },
    'b': 'bobcat',
    ...
}

It does make the update process more complicated though, as adding new
words potentially requires existing words to be nested deeper than
they are currently.


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:05:29 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:05:29 -0700
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidnSkiZ--jawug=dBZYxfqPTVA=xSVLeckctwfWDNdmhrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
 <almarsoft.6523303589308130554@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.3885.1386762407.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a86c57$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <20131211083051.65e3d501@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <CALwzidnSkiZ--jawug=dBZYxfqPTVA=xSVLeckctwfWDNdmhrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzidmazFHJjUnFfyVXsn=Ogv_=4j2FmS4-+DfW7dU0ynH7ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is what I did not so long ago when writing a utility for
> typeahead lookup, except that to save some space and time I only
> nested the dicts as deeply as there were still multiple entries.  As
> an example of what the data structure looked like:
>
> lookups = {
>     'a': {
>         'l': {
>             'g': 'algebra',
>             'p': 'alphanumeric',
>         },
>         's': 'asterisk',
>     },
>     'b': 'bobcat',
>     ...
> }
>
> It does make the update process more complicated though, as adding new
> words potentially requires existing words to be nested deeper than
> they are currently.

And I'm simplifying that a bit, because I also included at each node
the preferred (in my case, the first alphabetically) completion for
that prefix, to avoid the need to iterate over the subtree.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 11:06:37 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:06:37 +0000
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <l8a2hj$8sv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 00:02, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> Hi people!
>
> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the entire
> dictionary ?!
>
> Let us assume I have:
>
> {'Amanda':'Power','Amaly':'Higgens','Joseph':'White','Arlington','Black','Arnold','Schwarzenegger'}
>
> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
>
> I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
> I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a builtin
> method to get me these key/values on the fly.
>
> Why do I ask you?! I am working with the ZODB Database, where I make use
> of a PersistentDict and PersistentList, and I want
>
>
> I would thank you for a short reply.
>
> Tamer

Plenty of answers already but this may be of interest 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2288901/best-data-structure-for-crossword-puzzle-search?lq=1

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 22:43:07 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:43:07 -0800
Subject: grab dict keys/values without iterating ?!
In-Reply-To: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
References: <52A7AB8C.8030700@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oT-Am4jJNAODVdGoKbhUMn95DwR_k=r+UYhWq-yHaetA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Tamer Higazi <tameritoke2 at arcor.de> wrote:

> Hi people!
>
> Is there a way to get dict by search terms without iterating the entire
> dictionary ?!
>
> Let us assume I have:
>
> {'Amanda':'Power','Amaly':'Higgens','Joseph':'White','
> Arlington','Black','Arnold','Schwarzenegger'}
>
> I want to grab the dict's key and values started with 'Ar'...
>
> I could make an iterator and look if it's inside.
> I wasn't able to find it, but I am asking myself if dict has a builtin
> method to get me these key/values on the fly.
>
> Why do I ask you?! I am working with the ZODB Database, where I make use
> of a PersistentDict and PersistentList, and I want
>
>
> I would thank you for a short reply.
>

A treap or red-black tree could be made to do this in O(logn) time.  They
can be made to look like dictionaries, but they keep things ordered by key
every step of the way.

I can tell you right now though, that the following two implementations
aren't quite all the way there for this task:
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/treap
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/red-black-tree-mod

The treap implementation doesn't have a successor method and won't do a
prefix search out of the box.  The red-black tree implementation has a
successor method, but won't do a prefix search out of the box.

I believe you want something with both successor and prefix search.

And if you want to work on adding this to either of the aforementioned
modules, I'm interested in merging your patch.  ^_^

There may be other implementations that'll do this already; I don't know
about that.  Other things that may help are BTrees and things of that ilk.

Finally, if your dictionaries aren't very big, you might find it easier to
just get a list of keys and do a binary search on them.  It's O(n)
(assuming you do it only once - doing it in a loop would be expensive), but
sometimes that's not a problem.
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From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Tue Dec 10 21:24:05 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 20:24:05 -0600
Subject: Unit testing asynchronous processes
Message-ID: <20131210202405.6a6918f8@bigbox.christie.dr>

I've got some code that kicks off a background request to a remote
server over an SSL connection using client-side certificates.  Since
the request is made from a separate thread, I'm having trouble testing
that everything is working without without spinning up an out-of-band
mock server and actually making all the request.  Are there some best
practices for testing/mocking when things are asynchronous and
involve SSL connections to servers?

I'm currently just ignoring the SSL/client-cert thing and trusting my
calls work. But I'd like to at least have some tests that cover these
aspects so that things don't fall through the cracks.

Thanks,

-tkc




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Dec 10 21:30:42 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 21:30:42 -0500
Subject: Unit testing asynchronous processes
In-Reply-To: <20131210202405.6a6918f8@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20131210202405.6a6918f8@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <l88io8$e0p$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/10/2013 9:24 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> I've got some code that kicks off a background request to a remote
> server over an SSL connection using client-side certificates.  Since
> the request is made from a separate thread, I'm having trouble testing
> that everything is working without without spinning up an out-of-band
> mock server and actually making all the request.  Are there some best
> practices for testing/mocking when things are asynchronous and
> involve SSL connections to servers?
>
> I'm currently just ignoring the SSL/client-cert thing and trusting my
> calls work. But I'd like to at least have some tests that cover these
> aspects so that things don't fall through the cracks.

Take a look in the Python test suite (lib/test/test_xyz)

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 22:56:23 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:56:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python import error
Message-ID: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
   I am a new bie in python I was trying to execute the python script aaa.py in fedora which imports different modules. Actually when I am executing the aaa.py I am getting the following error and PYTHON_PATH=/bin/python which has a symlink to python-2.7. Please help me in this regard? I am not getting any clue where I am wrong.


python -c "import sys; print sys.path"
['', '/usr/lib64/python27.zip', '/usr/lib64/python2.7', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-tk', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-old', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/lib-dynload', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/site-packages', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/site-packages/gst-0.10', '/usr/lib64/python2.7/site-packages/gtk-2.0', '/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages', '/usr/lib/python2.7/site-packages/setuptools-0.6c11-py2.7.egg-info']


aaa.py
=======
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
    from ccc.ddd import sss
ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd

directory structure as follows:

ccc
|
 ddd
   |
    aaa.py
    sss.py


Regards
Pradeep


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec 10 23:25:50 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 21:25:50 -0700
Subject: python import error
In-Reply-To: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A7E94E.2010602@gmail.com>

On 12/10/2013 08:56 PM, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
>     from ccc.ddd import sss
> ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
> 
> directory structure as follows:
> 
> ccc
> |
>  ddd
>    |
>     aaa.py
>     sss.py

This is because directories have no inherent meaning to python.  A
module is normally a file.  If you want to group a bunch of files
together you have to use a package. See the docs on how to make a
package.  But the namespace structure within a package isn't based on
the directory tree either.  It's usually set up by __init__.py within
the package which imports modules defined in the package into the
namespace.

http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/modules.html#packages

Hope this helps.



From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 00:02:34 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 22:02:34 -0700
Subject: python import error
In-Reply-To: <52A7E94E.2010602@gmail.com>
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
 <52A7E94E.2010602@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A7F1EA.9070408@gmail.com>

On 12/10/2013 09:25 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/10/2013 08:56 PM, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
>>     from ccc.ddd import sss
>> ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
>>
>> directory structure as follows:
>>
>> ccc
>> |
>>  ddd
>>    |
>>     aaa.py
>>     sss.py
> 
> This is because directories have no inherent meaning to python.  A
> module is normally a file.  If you want to group a bunch of files
> together you have to use a package. See the docs on how to make a
> package.  But the namespace structure within a package isn't based on
> the directory tree either.  It's usually set up by __init__.py within
> the package which imports modules defined in the package into the
> namespace.
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/modules.html#packages
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 

I didn't quite get that right.  Follow John's advice on __init.py__ and
you'll have what you want I think.


From gordon at panix.com  Tue Dec 10 23:53:34 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:53:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: python import error
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1 at googlegroups.com> smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:

>   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
>     from ccc.ddd import sss
> ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd

> directory structure as follows:

> ccc
> |
>  ddd
>    |
>     aaa.py
>     sss.py

A python file isn't importable unless the directory also contains a file
named __init__.py .

Try making __init__.py files in the ccc and ddd directories.  If you
don't know what to put in them, just leave them blank.

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 00:45:45 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 21:45:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python import error
In-Reply-To: <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
 <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:23:34 AM UTC+5:30, John Gordon wrote:
> In <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1 at googlegroups.com> smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> >   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
> 
> >     from ccc.ddd import sss
> 
> > ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
> 
> 
> 
> > directory structure as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> > ccc
> 
> > |
> 
> >  ddd
> 
> >    |
> 
> >     aaa.py
> 
> >     sss.py
> 
> 
> 
> A python file isn't importable unless the directory also contains a file
> 
> named __init__.py .
> 
> 
> 
> Try making __init__.py files in the ccc and ddd directories.  If you
> 
> don't know what to put in them, just leave them blank.
> 
> 
> It is having __init__.py as blank in ccc and ddd directories. But it still doesnot work.
> -- 
> 
> John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
> 
> gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From benjamin.kaplan at case.edu  Wed Dec 11 02:23:49 2013
From: benjamin.kaplan at case.edu (Benjamin Kaplan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:23:49 -0800
Subject: python import error
In-Reply-To: <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
 <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMuTYXhxwH73yaBTW3B+GuVc4Qinoeq-wLmHMpFj5n5PXNfZiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:45 PM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:23:34 AM UTC+5:30, John Gordon wrote:
>> In <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1 at googlegroups.com> smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
>>
>> >     from ccc.ddd import sss
>>
>> > ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
>>
>>
>>
>> > directory structure as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>> > ccc
>>
>> > |
>>
>> >  ddd
>>
>> >    |
>>
>> >     aaa.py
>>
>> >     sss.py
>>
>>
>>
>> A python file isn't importable unless the directory also contains a file
>>
>> named __init__.py .
>>
>>
>>
>> Try making __init__.py files in the ccc and ddd directories.  If you
>>
>> don't know what to put in them, just leave them blank.
>>
>>
>> It is having __init__.py as blank in ccc and ddd directories. But it still doesnot work.
>> --


What directory are you in when you execute the script? Python doesn't
look up for packages so if you're in ddd and calling "python aaa.py",
Python doesn't know about the ccc package. You'd just import sss, or
add the parent directory of ccc to sys.path.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 04:51:27 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:51:27 +0000
Subject: python import error
In-Reply-To: <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
 <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l89civ$puh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 05:45, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:23:34 AM UTC+5:30, John Gordon wrote:
>> In <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1 at googlegroups.com> smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>    File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
>>
>>>      from ccc.ddd import sss
>>
>>> ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
>>
>>
>>
>>> directory structure as follows:
>>
>>
>>
>>> ccc
>>
>>> |
>>
>>>   ddd
>>
>>>     |
>>
>>>      aaa.py
>>
>>>      sss.py
>>
>>
>>
>> A python file isn't importable unless the directory also contains a file
>>
>> named __init__.py .
>>
>>
>>
>> Try making __init__.py files in the ccc and ddd directories.  If you
>>
>> don't know what to put in them, just leave them blank.
>>
>>
>> It is having __init__.py as blank in ccc and ddd directories. But it still doesnot work.
>> --
>>
>> John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
>>
>> gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.
>

Have you actually written anything above?

You also appear to be suffering from the highly contagious double 
spaced google disease.  So would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From gordon at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 11:15:57 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:15:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: python import error
References: <93405ea9-6faf-4a09-9fd9-ed264e3136e1@googlegroups.com>
 <l88r4e$mhe$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8a33t$dhs$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <58f7bd2a-ef82-4782-b4fb-db824f9c8e44 at googlegroups.com> smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:

> > >   File "aaa.py", line 5, in <module>
> > 
> > >     from ccc.ddd import sss
> > 
> > > ImportError: No module named ccc.ddd
> > 
> > > directory structure as follows:
> > 
> > > ccc
> > > |
> > >  ddd
> > >    |
> > >     aaa.py
> > >     sss.py
>
> It is having __init__.py as blank in ccc and ddd directories. But it
> still doesnot work.

What directory are you in when you run your python command?  As written,
your import will only work if you're in the parent directory of ccc (or
that directory is in your PYTHONPATH.)

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From sh0375 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 02:28:31 2013
From: sh0375 at gmail.com (Sergey)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:28:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: load_module for import entire package
Message-ID: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
I need to import package and instantiate a class, defined in one of modules, located in package.

Package is located in folder "tmp". basedir - path to running python script.

I'm doing it so:

import imp

def load_package_strict(p_package_name, p_package_path):
    f, filename, description = imp.find_module(p_package_name, [p_package_path])
    try:
        result = imp.load_module(p_package_name, f, filename, description)
    finally:
        if f: f.close
    return result

def get_obj():
  pkg = load_package_strict("tmp", basedir)
  from tmp import main
  return main.TTT()

It is working, but if package code changes on disc at runtime and I call get_obj again, it returns instance of class, loaded for the first time previously. 

How to replace line "from tmp import main" by getting properties of pkg?

Regards,
Sergey


From davea at davea.name  Wed Dec 11 10:05:35 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:05:35 -0500
Subject: load_module for import entire package
In-Reply-To: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
References: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
 <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.6199093730620942567@news.gmane.org>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:28:31 -0800 (PST), Sergey <sh0375 at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> def get_obj():
>   pkg = load_package_strict("tmp", basedir)
>   from tmp import main
>   return main.TTT()


> It is working, but if package code changes on disc at runtime and I 
call get_obj again, it returns instance of class, loaded for the 
first time previously. 

That's how import works.  Once something has been imported,  the 
module information is cached. There are three ways to defeat that, 
but they're all risky. 



> How to replace line "from tmp import main" by getting properties of 
pkg?

No clue what you mean by that.

-- 
DaveA



From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 01:58:00 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:58:00 +1000
Subject: load_module for import entire package
In-Reply-To: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
References: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8bmpr$8s1$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/12/2013 5:28 PM, Sergey wrote:
> def get_obj():
>    pkg = load_package_strict("tmp", basedir)
>    from tmp import main
>    return main.TTT()
>
> It is working, but if package code changes on disc at runtime and I call get_obj again, it returns instance of class, loaded for the first time previously.
>
> How to replace line "from tmp import main" by getting properties of pkg?

Your `load_package_strict` function loads the `tmp` module and binds it 
to the name `pkg`. You then use a regular import to load `tmp.main`, 
which is _cached_; all subsequent occurrences reuse the initially 
imported value.

This should work:

     def get_obj():
        tmp = load_package_strict("tmp", basedir)
        return tmp.main.TTT()


From sh0375 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 02:09:06 2013
From: sh0375 at gmail.com (Sergey)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:09:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: load_module for import entire package
In-Reply-To: <l8bmpr$8s1$1@dont-email.me>
References: <cbf4a2a0-82d9-4f4f-9b1c-c6baa36b1aee@googlegroups.com>
 <l8bmpr$8s1$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <53059a9f-5057-4912-8743-3b37cc00a5a2@googlegroups.com>

> This should work:
>      def get_obj():
>         tmp = load_package_strict("tmp", basedir)
>         return tmp.main.TTT()
Thank you:)
I can only mention that it is working only if __init__.py of pkg contains line: import main

To avoid modules caching I copy package to the new folder with another name and import it using this new name.

    tmp_pkg = "t" + str(randint(10000,100000000)) + '_' + time.strftime("%Y%m%d%H%M%S", time.localtime())
    shutil.copytree(pkg_dir, basedir + '/x/' + dir_name + '/' + tmp_pkg)

    pkg = load_package_strict(tmp_pkg, basedir + '/x/' + dir_name)
    result = pkg.main.TTT()
What is the risk of this method? What are 3 methods of doing the same?

--
Sergey



From sh0375 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 03:05:52 2013
From: sh0375 at gmail.com (Sergey)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 00:05:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: load_module for loading packages
Message-ID: <0fb73a87-5709-44e9-ac87-0763a0a113c7@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

If I use load_module for loading module, I can instantiate classes, defined in that module. Is it possible to do the same, if load not a module, but package?

Python documentation for load_module contains description, that load_module can load a package. But I can not find examples, how to work with result of load_module, used for loading a package.

Regards,
Sergey


From msfclipper at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 03:23:05 2013
From: msfclipper at gmail.com (msfclipper at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 00:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Using Python inside Programming Without Coding Technology (PWCT)
 environment.
Message-ID: <b238e30a-b8e3-461f-a24e-5109ca56afa3@googlegroups.com>

Hello

Article : Using Python inside Programming Without Coding Technology (PWCT) environment.

http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/693408/Using-Python-inside-Programming-Without-Coding-Tec

In this article you will find information about using Python in the PWCT Visual Programming Environment

Programming Without Coding Technology is a free open source general purpose visual programming system. Inside PWCT we can create programs using visual programming without typing text based source code. This seems to be an attractive feature for novice programmers, but PWCT is designed to take in mind some of the expert programmer needs (Productivity and Customization). When we create applications using PWCT we can see/edit the generated source code (optional). PWCT system contains more than one visual programming language (HarbourPWCT, PythonPWCT, C#PWCT, SupernovaPWCT & CPWCT). from the name of the visual language we can guess the text based language that are used in the code generation process. PythonPWCT is a visual programming language that generate the source code in the Python programming language.

As any programming tool you need to try PWCT then decide for yourself if it is useful or not. I hope that some Python programmers will find that PythonPWCT is useful for them and they will like this article as an introduction to PythonPWCT.

Any suggestions/Ideas are welcome

Greetings,
Mahmoud


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 22:16:12 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 20:16:12 -0700
Subject: Using Python inside Programming Without Coding Technology (PWCT)
 environment.
In-Reply-To: <b238e30a-b8e3-461f-a24e-5109ca56afa3@googlegroups.com>
References: <b238e30a-b8e3-461f-a24e-5109ca56afa3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1gx0jc1bS7zNK=+K2Cn_x3dRugX-gym2=etBhTsOG7yaA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/693408/Using-Python-inside-Programming-Without-Coding-Tec
>
That page references a license file at
http://www.codeproject.com/info/cpol10.aspx but _that_ page would
display for me.


From johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de  Wed Dec 11 03:23:29 2013
From: johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de (Johannes Schneider)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:23:29 +0100
Subject: Differences between obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")
Message-ID: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>

Hi list,
can somebody explain me the difference between accessing attributes via
obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")?

Is there a special reason or advantage when using getattr?

bg,
Johannes

-- 
Johannes Schneider
Webentwicklung
johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de
Tel.: +49.228.42150.xxx

Galileo Press GmbH
Rheinwerkallee 4 - 53227 Bonn - Germany
Tel.: +49.228.42.150.0 (Zentrale) .77 (Fax)
http://www.galileo-press.de/

Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Tomas Wehren, Ralf Kaulisch, Rainer Kaltenecker
HRB 8363 Amtsgericht Bonn



From jurko.gospodnetic at pke.hr  Wed Dec 11 04:30:53 2013
From: jurko.gospodnetic at pke.hr (=?UTF-8?B?SnVya28gR29zcG9kbmV0acSH?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:30:53 +0100
Subject: Differences between obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")
In-Reply-To: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
References: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
Message-ID: <l89bc2$cb1$1@ger.gmane.org>

   Hi.

On 11.12.2013. 9:23, Johannes Schneider wrote:
> can somebody explain me the difference between accessing attributes via
> obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")?
>
> Is there a special reason or advantage when using getattr?

   You can not use obj.attribute if you have the word 'attribute' as a 
string, e.g. if you read it from a configuration file.

   Also, you can not test whether an object has an attribute when using 
the object.attribute access method without raising/catching an exception 
and then it can be hard to make sure no other code caused the exception.

   But I suppose in most real-life cases both of the suggested access 
methods are equivalent, since most of the time you really do not have 
names of your attributes as strings and are free to simply assume the 
attribute exists.

   One example problem I had recently where I think you have to use 
getattr(): list the names of all global references in the __builtins__ 
module and, a the type of object each of those references points to.

   [Ran into this one by accident as a part of demonstrating to a new 
Python student what names Python recognizes in some module, and what 
names require additional imports.]

   Hope this helps.

   Best regards,
     Jurko Gospodneti?




From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 04:38:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:38:43 +1100
Subject: Differences between obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")
In-Reply-To: <l89bc2$cb1$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
	<l89bc2$cb1$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqrxdquc2MaKtHv0PD=frn4usLm09CoYKs=uXk-SxGjsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Jurko Gospodneti?
<jurko.gospodnetic at pke.hr> wrote:
>   Also, you can not test whether an object has an attribute when using the
> object.attribute access method without raising/catching an exception and
> then it can be hard to make sure no other code caused the exception.

It's pretty easy to make sure no other code caused the exception -
just have no other code inside the try block.

x.foo(input().split(" ")[4])  # Might throw from any point in the expression

try:
   func = x.foo
except AttributeError:
   deal_with_error
func(......)

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 04:36:22 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:36:22 +1100
Subject: Differences between obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")
In-Reply-To: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
References: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpnVHGgGiXZ2Cuj-K5k2JLo6qXysX2FEdM6MQ1tQDdS=A@mail.gmail.com>

2013/12/11 Johannes Schneider <johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de>:
> can somebody explain me the difference between accessing attributes via
> obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")?
>
> Is there a special reason or advantage when using getattr?

You use getattr when the attribute name comes from a string, rather
than a literal. There's no advantage to it when you know ahead of time
what attribute you're looking for. It's useful when you iterate over
dir(), for instance:

print("You can call...")
n=0
for attr in dir(x):
    if callable(getattr(x,attr)):
        print("x.%s()"%attr)
        n+=1
print("...",n," options.")

ChrisA


From johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de  Wed Dec 11 05:11:44 2013
From: johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de (Johannes Schneider)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:11:44 +0100
Subject: Differences between obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpnVHGgGiXZ2Cuj-K5k2JLo6qXysX2FEdM6MQ1tQDdS=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52A82101.7030307@galileo-press.de>
 <CAPTjJmpnVHGgGiXZ2Cuj-K5k2JLo6qXysX2FEdM6MQ1tQDdS=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A83A60.3060908@galileo-press.de>

thank you guys.
On 11.12.2013 10:36, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 2013/12/11 Johannes Schneider <johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de>:
>> can somebody explain me the difference between accessing attributes via
>> obj.attribute and getattr(obj, "attribute")?
>>
>> Is there a special reason or advantage when using getattr?
> You use getattr when the attribute name comes from a string, rather
> than a literal. There's no advantage to it when you know ahead of time
> what attribute you're looking for. It's useful when you iterate over
> dir(), for instance:
>
> print("You can call...")
> n=0
> for attr in dir(x):
>      if callable(getattr(x,attr)):
>          print("x.%s()"%attr)
>          n+=1
> print("...",n," options.")
>
> ChrisA


-- 
Johannes Schneider
Webentwicklung
johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de
Tel.: +49.228.42150.xxx

Galileo Press GmbH
Rheinwerkallee 4 - 53227 Bonn - Germany
Tel.: +49.228.42.150.0 (Zentrale) .77 (Fax)
http://www.galileo-press.de/

Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Tomas Wehren, Ralf Kaulisch, Rainer Kaltenecker
HRB 8363 Amtsgericht Bonn



From lightaiyee at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 04:55:44 2013
From: lightaiyee at gmail.com (JL)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 01:55:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
Message-ID: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>

Python scripts can run without a main(). What is the advantage to using a main()? Is it necessary to use a main() when the script uses command line arguments? (See script below)

#!/usr/bin/python

import sys

def main():
    # print command line arguments
    for arg in sys.argv[1:]:
        print arg

if __name__ == "__main__":
    main()


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Dec 11 05:26:35 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:26:35 +1100
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

JL <lightaiyee at gmail.com> writes:

> Python scripts can run without a main(). What is the advantage to
> using a main()?

Modular code ? that is, implementing the program functionality in small,
well-defined units with narrow, strictly-defined interfaces ? is good
design.

Practical benefits include being able to easily use the code as part of
a larger program, and being able to easily unit-test all the program's
code.

> Is it necessary to use a main() when the script uses command line
> arguments? (See script below)
>
> #!/usr/bin/python
>
> import sys
>
> def main():
>     # print command line arguments
>     for arg in sys.argv[1:]:
>         print arg
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     main()

Better design is to make the argument list a parameter to the ?main?
function; this allows constructing an argument list specially for
calling that function, without ?main? needing to know the difference.

You'll also want to catch SystemExit and return that as the ?main?
function's return value, to make it easier to use as a function when
that's needed.

    def main(argv=None):
        if argv is None:
            argv = sys.argv

        exit_code = 0
        try:
            command_name = argv[0]
            config = parse_command_args(argv[1:])
            do_whatever_this_program_does(config)
        except SystemExit, exc:
            exit_code = exc.code

        return exit_code

    if __name__ == "__main__":
        import sys
        exit_code = main(sys.argv)
        sys.exit(exit_code)

That way, the normal behaviour is to use the ?sys.argv? list and to
raise SystemExit (via ?sys.exit?) to exit the program. But ?main? itself
can, without any further changes, be called as a function that receives
the command line as a parameter, and returns the exit code.

-- 
 \       ?Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who |
  `\   speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.? ?Ambrose |
_o__)                           Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_, 1906 |
Ben Finney



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 05:41:47 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:41:47 +1100
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq8LkipHXC0EHjnOWYmTNUSd26HiHGfGN_AoNOak0xkiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>         except SystemExit, exc:

For new code, you'd of course want to write that as:

except SystemExit as exc:

which is compatible with Python 2.6, 2.7, and 3.x, while the other
syntax is 2.x only.

ChrisA


From marduk at letterboxes.org  Wed Dec 11 07:57:32 2013
From: marduk at letterboxes.org (marduk at letterboxes.org)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:57:32 -0500
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <1386766652.27893.58280225.61214C38@webmail.messagingengine.com>


I would agree with the previous post but also add that I've stopped
calling the main function "main()" and usually give it a more
descriptive name, such as "bake_cookies()" or whatever.  I think that
that makes it clearer what it's doing when used as a library and the 'if
__name__ == '__main__'" already implies that it is the "main" script
function.


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 09:20:29 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:20:29 -0500
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <mailman.3895.1386766655.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-E30525.09202911122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3895.1386766655.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 marduk at letterboxes.org wrote:

> I would agree with the previous post but also add that I've stopped
> calling the main function "main()" and usually give it a more
> descriptive name, such as "bake_cookies()" or whatever.  I think that
> that makes it clearer what it's doing when used as a library and the 'if
> __name__ == '__main__'" already implies that it is the "main" script
> function.

If you're writing a library that's meant to be imported by other 
scripts, then that makes sense.  I tend to use main() for things that 
are done when your script is run as a stand-alone program.  That usually 
involves things like parsing command-line arguments, and configuring 
logging, neither of which you'd want to do in an importable library.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec 11 16:22:00 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:22:00 -0500
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <7wsitzlm3o.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <l8al1f$4id$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/11/2013 5:26 AM, Ben Finney wrote:

> Better design is to make the argument list a parameter to the ?main?
> function; this allows constructing an argument list specially for
> calling that function, without ?main? needing to know the difference.
>
> You'll also want to catch SystemExit and return that as the ?main?
> function's return value, to make it easier to use as a function when
> that's needed.
>
>      def main(argv=None):
>          if argv is None:
>              argv = sys.argv
>
>          exit_code = 0
>          try:
>              command_name = argv[0]
>              config = parse_command_args(argv[1:])
>              do_whatever_this_program_does(config)
>          except SystemExit, exc:
>              exit_code = exc.code
>
>          return exit_code
>
>      if __name__ == "__main__":
>          import sys
>          exit_code = main(sys.argv)
>          sys.exit(exit_code)
>
> That way, the normal behaviour is to use the ?sys.argv? list and to
> raise SystemExit (via ?sys.exit?) to exit the program. But ?main? itself
> can, without any further changes, be called as a function that receives
> the command line as a parameter, and returns the exit code.

In particular, it is easier to write tests when argv is a parameter.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 11 09:17:34 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:17:34 -0500
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-6DF7ED.09173411122013@news.panix.com>

In article <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247 at googlegroups.com>,
 JL <lightaiyee at gmail.com> wrote:

> Python scripts can run without a main(). What is the advantage to using a 
> main()? Is it necessary to use a main() when the script uses command line 
> arguments? (See script below)
> 
> #!/usr/bin/python
> 
> import sys
> 
> def main():
>     # print command line arguments
>     for arg in sys.argv[1:]:
>         print arg
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     main()

No, it's not necessary, but it's a good idea.

For one thing, it lets you import your script without actually running 
it.  We recently tracked down a long-standing bug where some maintenance 
script we had started out with:

import os
os.environ['DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE'] = 'whatever'

somebody imported that script in another part of the system because 
there was some convenient definition that he wanted to reuse.  
Unfortunately, the act of importing the script changed the environment!

The fix was to move the setting of the environment variable to inside 
the main() routine.  If you always follow the rule that you always put 
all your executable code inside main(), you'll never run into problems 
like that.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 09:24:26 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 06:24:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <roy-6DF7ED.09173411122013@news.panix.com>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-6DF7ED.09173411122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <b028423f-42e3-40ed-8140-9515e2700267@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 11, 2013 7:47:34 PM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  JL  wrote:

> > Python scripts can run without a main(). What is the advantage to using a 
> > main()? Is it necessary to use a main() when the script uses command line 
> > arguments? (See script below)
> > #!/usr/bin/python
> > import sys
> > def main():
> >     # print command line arguments
> >     for arg in sys.argv[1:]:
> >         print arg
> > if __name__ == "__main__":
> >     main()

> No, it's not necessary, but it's a good idea.

> For one thing, it lets you import your script without actually running 
> it.  We recently tracked down a long-standing bug where some maintenance 
> script we had started out with:

> import os
> os.environ['DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE'] = 'whatever'

> somebody imported that script in another part of the system because 
> there was some convenient definition that he wanted to reuse.  
> Unfortunately, the act of importing the script changed the environment!

> The fix was to move the setting of the environment variable to inside 
> the main() routine.  If you always follow the rule that you always put 
> all your executable code inside main(), you'll never run into problems 
> like that.

I guess these are important but somewhat advanced considerations.

For a beginner, its important to get that there is a bit of a pun here:
The function habitually called 'main' may be called that or anything else
It can have or not have an argument as Ben pointed out -- maybe more than 
one also.

The module name __main__ is however sacrosanct and hardwired into python.
The habit of connecting the one with the other is partly conventional and
partly unavoidable


From bgailer at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 10:42:19 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 10:42:19 -0500
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52A887DB.6030600@gmail.com>

On 12/11/2013 4:55 AM, JL wrote:
> What is the advantage to using a main()?
In addition to what's been said I add:

It separates all the global activities: defining of functions and 
classes, importing modules, etc. from the "doing" the actual task of the 
program.

It also ensures that the defining all the classes and functions happens 
before referencing them (less "bookkeeping" for me).

These two allow me to write the main program first, and follow it with 
all the global stuff.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 10:49:23 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 02:49:23 +1100
Subject: Is there any advantage to using a main() in python scripts?
In-Reply-To: <52A887DB.6030600@gmail.com>
References: <32615c9a-b983-4399-bb55-6df6c230f247@googlegroups.com>
 <52A887DB.6030600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrGN56N8Gyohmrj+x9QkWZS4u92UKmP=yqnvRv_03KzYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:42 AM, bob gailer <bgailer at gmail.com> wrote:
> It also ensures that the defining all the classes and functions happens
> before referencing them (less "bookkeeping" for me).
>
> These two allow me to write the main program first, and follow it with all
> the global stuff.

I prefer define-before-use for readability, even if it doesn't matter
to the language. It means that locating the source of something can be
found by going upward (or starting at the top and going down - first
hit should be the definition), and helps keep things organized.
Obviously it's not always possible (mutual recursion, for instance),
but it's a general rule of thumb that I like to maintain.

ChrisA


From chris at simplistix.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 06:35:37 2013
From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:35:37 +0000
Subject: mush 1.2 released! - Type-based dependency injection for scripts
Message-ID: <52A84E09.1070405@simplistix.co.uk>

Hi All,

I'm very happy to announce the a new release of Mush, a light weight 
dependency injection framework aimed at enabling the easy testing and 
re-use of chunks of code that make up scripts.

This release rounds out a some more rough edges after even more real 
world use:

- The 'nothing' singleton is now used  instead of None for marking
   return types, fixing a bug that occurred when a callable tried to
   type-map a result that was None.

- Add an after() type wrapper for callables that need to wait
   until after a resource is used but that can't accept that resource
   as a parameter.

For a worked example of how to use Mush to reduce the copy'n'paste in 
your scripts, please see here:

http://pythonhosted.org/mush/examples.html

Full docs are here:

http://pythonhosted.org/mush/

Downloads are here:

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mush

Compatible with Python 2.6, 2.7, 3.2 and 3.3 on Linux, Mac OS X and Windows:

http://jenkins.simplistix.co.uk/view/mush/

Any problems, please give me a shout on the simplistix at googlegroups.com 
list!

cheers,

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Wed Dec 11 06:53:41 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:53:41 -0700
Subject: Script Request
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3voGJPWrFKXQXTTh-QgYdgTDjK39x6iSFp5FMkfvJXJYQ@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for a script which will check connectivity of any or all of our
company URL's first thing in the morning to make sure none or our sites are
down.     Any suggestions ?   Thank You
-------------- next part --------------
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From larry.martell at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:16:40 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:16:40 -0500
Subject: Script Request
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3voGJPWrFKXQXTTh-QgYdgTDjK39x6iSFp5FMkfvJXJYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3voGJPWrFKXQXTTh-QgYdgTDjK39x6iSFp5FMkfvJXJYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY4FWHoUT=hs81kxLo4OCBhHkQiFqGV85OA=-Ej+Z-5nsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:
> Looking for a script which will check connectivity of any or all of our
> company URL's first thing in the morning to make sure none or our sites are
> down.     Any suggestions ?   Thank You

import urllib

sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "http://nowhere.com"]

for site in sites:
    try:
        urllib.urlopen(site)
        print site + " is up"
    except Exception, e:
        print site + " is down"


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 08:10:52 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 13:10:52 GMT
Subject: Script Request
References: <mailman.3888.1386762926.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a8645c$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:53:41 -0700, Jeff James wrote:

> Looking for a script which will check connectivity of any or all of our
> company URL's first thing in the morning to make sure none or our sites
> are down.     Any suggestions ?

Don't reinvent the wheel, use a tool already designed for this task, such 
as Nagios.



-- 
Steven


From mailman at hanez.org  Wed Dec 11 13:24:12 2013
From: mailman at hanez.org (Johannes Findeisen)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:24:12 +0100
Subject: Script Request
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3voGJPWrFKXQXTTh-QgYdgTDjK39x6iSFp5FMkfvJXJYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3voGJPWrFKXQXTTh-QgYdgTDjK39x6iSFp5FMkfvJXJYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131211192412.2533eef8@hanez.org>

Hi,

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:53:41 -0700
Jeff James wrote:

> Looking for a script which will check connectivity of any or all of our
> company URL's first thing in the morning to make sure none or our sites are
> down.     Any suggestions ?   Thank You

This really is not a suggestion because the software is not usable for
production use - there are missing too many features. But I am
currently developing a Nagios style monitoring solution using Python.
The software is called Linspector and it has an own homepage:
http://linspector.org

Linspector currrently only supports some TCP port probes and checking
for a string in some content fetched via HTTP. We are not developing
more servicve checks at the moment because we at first want to build
the core of the application to make sure we don't have to refactor to
much code all the time.

In the future Linspector will be a complete monitoring solution
supporting many protocols like SNMP, devices like sensors etc.

Linspector differs to all other monitoring solutions that it only does
monitoring, alerting and the storage of results in a database like
MongoDB. It really does not build graphs, statistics, SLA reports etc.
because we think this is not the job of a monitoring software which
you really should rely on and which not should waste CPU time for such
stuff. All data could be accessed from web applications, desktop
applications etc. for later usage. 

Another big difference is, that we do not provide a graphical
interface in Linspector. Linspector provides a Shell style interface
for managing an instance. In this Shell, called Lish, you will be able
to enable/disable jobs, get job lists, get a jobs state etc. Another
interface to Linspector is a JSON-RPC interface so you can easy write
your own management software for Linspector.

Be sure, Linspector is in a very early state of development but
development is going on every day and it is my main project... I love
it so i will not stop developing it.

We are planning to finish the core features until January/February 2014
and will then start building a lot of service checks for all the
everyday monitoring tasks. Even the Shell interface is only partly
usable at the moment so this will also be done until early 2014.

If you have any questions about this software feel free to conatct me
directly via mail.

Regards,
Johannes


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 07:28:32 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:28:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: please guide to make proxy type function  in python
Message-ID: <b4ee3d01-9e9d-49a7-953a-6637b14e0257@googlegroups.com>

please guide to make proxy type function  in python 


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 08:22:32 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:22:32 +0000
Subject: please guide to make proxy type function  in python
In-Reply-To: <b4ee3d01-9e9d-49a7-953a-6637b14e0257@googlegroups.com>
References: <b4ee3d01-9e9d-49a7-953a-6637b14e0257@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l89ouj$79n$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 12:28, Jai wrote:
> please guide to make proxy type function  in python
>

Write some code after looking at the documentation 
http://docs.python.org/3/.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From sal at nearlocal.com  Wed Dec 11 07:44:53 2013
From: sal at nearlocal.com (sal at nearlocal.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:44:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
Message-ID: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>

I'm a Python beginner.  I want to use it for stats work, so I downloaded Anaconda which has several of the popular libraries already packaged for Mac OS X.

Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io), but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following error:

AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call last)
<ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
      2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
      3 results = dma.run(data)

1)  I assume that I'm missing some packages that aren't included in Anaconda, but how do I know which ones to upload?

2)  Often I'll just unzip a library file and put the main folder in the iPython folder, but I notice there's usually a setup.py file in the main library folder.  I've been ignoring this.  Should I be using it?

Thanks


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 08:27:07 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 13:27:07 GMT
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a8682b$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:44:53 -0800, sal wrote:

> Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io),

".io" is not normally a file extension for Python files. Are you sure 
that's Python code?


> but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following
> error:
> 
> AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call
> last) 
> <ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
> ----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
>       2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
>       3 results = dma.run(data)

I think you may be missing one or more lines? Perhaps something like 
"AssertionError: blah blah blah" appearing after that?


For those unfamiliar with iPython, rather than a standard Traceback, that 
appears to suggest that dma.run(data) is raising AssertionError, but we 
can't see what (if any) error message is given by that assert, or how it 
fails.

Can you explain what precise command you are running? Please copy and 
paste the exact command line you used that gives that error.

Also, whenever you get unexpected errors while running from an IDE or non-
standard environment like IDLE or iPython, your first step should be to 
run the same script from the command line using the vanilla Python 
interpreter and see if the error goes away. Do you need assistance with 
doing that? Feel free to ask for additional instructions.


> 1)  I assume that I'm missing some packages that aren't included in
> Anaconda, but how do I know which ones to upload?

Why do you make that assumption? I would expect missing packages to give 
an ImportError, not an AssertionError.


> 2)  Often I'll just unzip a library file and put the main folder in the
> iPython folder, but I notice there's usually a setup.py file in the main
> library folder.  I've been ignoring this.  Should I be using it?

Absolutely! You'll probably see a READ ME file in the unzipped folder, 
you should read that for instructions.

It may be that sometimes the setup.py file will do nothing more than copy 
the main folder into your site-packages folder, but it may do a lot more. 
Also, if you just dump random packages into iPython's private library 
area, you may even break iPython.


-- 
Steven


From robert.kern at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 08:38:24 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:38:24 +0000
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <52a8682b$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
 <52a8682b$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l89ps5$p9c$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-11 13:27, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:44:53 -0800, sal wrote:
>
>> Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io),
>
> ".io" is not normally a file extension for Python files. Are you sure
> that's Python code?

That's a package name, not a filename.

>> but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following
>> error:
>>
>> AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call
>> last)
>> <ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
>> ----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
>>        2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
>>        3 results = dma.run(data)
>
> I think you may be missing one or more lines? Perhaps something like
> "AssertionError: blah blah blah" appearing after that?
>
>
> For those unfamiliar with iPython, rather than a standard Traceback, that
> appears to suggest that dma.run(data) is raising AssertionError, but we
> can't see what (if any) error message is given by that assert, or how it
> fails.

No, the ----> arrow points to the active line in that frame of the traceback. 
Unfortunately, the OP cut off the remaining frames under `load_from_yahoo()` 
actually has the assert that is failing.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 15:21:35 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:21:35 -0700
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <l89ps5$p9c$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
 <52a8682b$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l89ps5$p9c$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=_8r_P+2nre3Bcf72y6qN9w45nWmTtroe4fJNXjwLczg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:38 AM, Robert Kern <robert.kern at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-12-11 13:27, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 04:44:53 -0800, sal wrote:
>>
>>> Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io),
>>
>>
>> ".io" is not normally a file extension for Python files. Are you sure
>> that's Python code?
>
>
> That's a package name, not a filename.

Actually, the ".io" there appears to be a TLD.  At least, "zipline.io"
is the address for the website of a "zipline" Python package.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 08:25:50 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:25:50 +0000
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l89p4p$79n$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 12:44, sal at nearlocal.com wrote:
> I'm a Python beginner.  I want to use it for stats work, so I downloaded Anaconda which has several of the popular libraries already packaged for Mac OS X.
>
> Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io), but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following error:
>
> AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call last)
> <ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
> ----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
>        2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
>        3 results = dma.run(data)
>
> 1)  I assume that I'm missing some packages that aren't included in Anaconda, but how do I know which ones to upload?
>
> 2)  Often I'll just unzip a library file and put the main folder in the iPython folder, but I notice there's usually a setup.py file in the main library folder.  I've been ignoring this.  Should I be using it?
>
> Thanks
>

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/z3c.dependencychecker and probably others.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:48:42 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:48:42 +1000
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8bins$pbr$1@dont-email.me>

On 11/12/2013 10:44 PM, sal at nearlocal.com wrote:
> I'm a Python beginner.  I want to use it for stats work, so I downloaded Anaconda which has several of the popular libraries already packaged for Mac OS X.
>
> Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io), but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following error:
>
> AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call last)
> <ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
> ----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
>        2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
>        3 results = dma.run(data)
>
> 1)  I assume that I'm missing some packages that aren't included in Anaconda, but how do I know which ones to upload?

You're not missing a package, you're missing parameters. This is the 
signature for load_from_yahoo:

     def load_from_yahoo(indexes=None,
                         stocks=None,
                         start=None,
                         end=None,
                         adjusted=True):

The first thing it does is call a helper function 
`_load_raw_yahoo_data`, which has this assertion:

     assert indexes is not None or stocks is not None, """

As you're passing no parameters into `load_from_yahoo`, both `indexes` 
and `stocks` default to None, so the assertion fails. Take a look at the 
examples in the zipline library to see what it is expecting.
> 2)  Often I'll just unzip a library file and put the main folder in the iPython folder, but I notice there's usually a setup.py file in the main library folder.  I've been ignoring this.  Should I be using it?
>
> Thanks
>



From sal at nearlocal.com  Thu Dec 12 01:53:22 2013
From: sal at nearlocal.com (sal i)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <l8bins$pbr$1@dont-email.me>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
 <l8bins$pbr$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <5bb462e2-db2d-4b6f-b682-3be8cd794ae3@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:48:42 PM UTC+8, alex23 wrote:
> On 11/12/2013 10:44 PM, sal at nearlocal.com wrote:
> 
> > I'm a Python beginner.  I want to use it for stats work, so I downloaded Anaconda which has several of the popular libraries already packaged for Mac OS X.
> 
> >
> 
> > Now I'd like to use the backtesting package from zipline (zipline.io), but while running the test script in iPython, I receive the following error:
> 
> >
> 
> > AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call last)
> 
> > <ipython-input-6-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
> 
> > ----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
> 
> >        2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
> 
> >        3 results = dma.run(data)
> 
> >
> 
> > 1)  I assume that I'm missing some packages that aren't included in Anaconda, but how do I know which ones to upload?
> 
> 
> 
> You're not missing a package, you're missing parameters. This is the 
> 
> signature for load_from_yahoo:
> 
> 
> 
>      def load_from_yahoo(indexes=None,
> 
>                          stocks=None,
> 
>                          start=None,
> 
>                          end=None,
> 
>                          adjusted=True):
> 
> 
> 
> The first thing it does is call a helper function 
> 
> `_load_raw_yahoo_data`, which has this assertion:
> 
> 
> 
>      assert indexes is not None or stocks is not None, """
> 
> 
> 
> As you're passing no parameters into `load_from_yahoo`, both `indexes` 
> 
> and `stocks` default to None, so the assertion fails. Take a look at the 
> 
> examples in the zipline library to see what it is expecting.
> 
> > 2)  Often I'll just unzip a library file and put the main folder in the iPython folder, but I notice there's usually a setup.py file in the main library folder.  I've been ignoring this.  Should I be using it?
> 
> >
> 
> > Thanks
> 
> >

Thanks everyone.

This is the entire testing file along with the error at the bottom.  It looks like a stock is specified as data['AAPL']:

%pylab inline
Populating the interactive namespace from numpy and matplotlib
In [14]:

from zipline.algorithm import TradingAlgorithm
from zipline.transforms import MovingAverage
from zipline.utils.factory import load_from_yahoo
In [15]:

class DualMovingAverage(TradingAlgorithm):
    """Dual Moving Average algorithm.
    """
    def initialize(self, short_window=200, long_window=400):
        # Add 2 mavg transforms, one with a long window, one
        # with a short window.
        self.add_transform(MovingAverage, 'short_mavg', ['price'],
                           market_aware=True,
                           window_length=short_window)
 
        self.add_transform(MovingAverage, 'long_mavg', ['price'],
                           market_aware=True,
                           window_length=long_window)
 
        # To keep track of whether we invested in the stock or not
        self.invested = False
 
        self.short_mavg = []
        self.long_mavg = []
 
 
    def handle_data(self, data):
        if (data['AAPL'].short_mavg['price'] > data['AAPL'].long_mavg['price']) and not self.invested:
            self.order('AAPL', 100)
            self.invested = True
        elif (data['AAPL'].short_mavg['price'] < data['AAPL'].long_mavg['price']) and self.invested:
            self.order('AAPL', -100)
            self.invested = False
 
        # Save mavgs for later analysis.
        self.short_mavg.append(data['AAPL'].short_mavg['price'])
        self.long_mavg.append(data['AAPL'].long_mavg['price'])
 
In [16]:

data = load_from_yahoo()
dma = DualMovingAverage()
results = dma.run(data)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
AssertionError                            Traceback (most recent call last)
<ipython-input-16-f921351f78e2> in <module>()
----> 1 data = load_from_yahoo()
      2 dma = DualMovingAverage()
      3 results = dma.run(data)

/Users/my_mac/zipline/data/loader.pyc in load_from_yahoo(indexes, stocks, start, end, adjusted)
    302 
    303     """
--> 304     data = _load_raw_yahoo_data(indexes, stocks, start, end)
    305     if adjusted:
    306         close_key = 'Adj Close'

/Users/my_mac/zipline/data/loader.pyc in _load_raw_yahoo_data(indexes, stocks, start, end)
    245 
    246     assert indexes is not None or stocks is not None, """
--> 247 must specify stocks or indexes"""
    248 
    249     if start is None:

AssertionError: 
must specify stocks or indexes


From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 22:30:25 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:30:25 +1000
Subject: Figuring out what dependencies are needed
In-Reply-To: <5bb462e2-db2d-4b6f-b682-3be8cd794ae3@googlegroups.com>
References: <e84a7ca4-5aa5-4c86-bf36-daa768d92aea@googlegroups.com>
 <l8bins$pbr$1@dont-email.me>
 <5bb462e2-db2d-4b6f-b682-3be8cd794ae3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8oggj$1ek$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/12/2013 4:53 PM, sal i wrote:
> This is the entire testing file along with the error at the bottom.
>
> data = load_from_yahoo()

You're _still_ not passing into `load_from_yahoo` either `indexes` or 
`stocks` parameters, as I tried to point out by highlighting:

     assert indexes is not None or stocks is not None, """

Either `indexes` must have a value or stocks must.

> AssertionError:
> must specify stocks or indexes

Which is exactly what the error is telling you.

This isn't a dependency issue. You just need to read the documentation, 
work out what format it requires indexes or stocks to be specified in, 
and then pass them to `load_from_yahoo`. Calling it without _any_ 
arguments will give you the exception you're seeing.

Look at the file examples/dual_moving_average.py, it shows you exactly 
what you need:

     data = load_from_yahoo(stocks=['AAPL'], indexes={}, start=start,
                            end=end)




From briancleere at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 14:10:00 2013
From: briancleere at gmail.com (brian cleere)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:10:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner help
Message-ID: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>

I know the problem is with the for loop but don't know how to fix. Any help with explanation would be appreciated.

#!/bin/env python
import csv
import sys

if len(sys.argv) < 3:
    print('Please specify a filename and column number: {} [csvfile] [column]'.format(sys.argv[0]))
    sys.exit(1)

filename = sys.argv[1]
column = int(sys.argv[2])

for line in filename() , column ():
    elements = line.strip().split(',')
    values.append(int(elements[col]))

csum = sum(values)
cavg = sum(values)/len(values)
print("Sum of column %d: %f" % (col, csum))
print("Avg of column %d: %f" % (col, cavg))


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 11 14:20:27 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:20:27 -0600
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131211132027.5f8a3690@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-11 11:10, brian cleere wrote:
> filename = sys.argv[1]
> column = int(sys.argv[2])
> 
> for line in filename() , column ():
>     elements = line.strip().split(',')
>     values.append(int(elements[col]))

1) you need to open the file

2) you need to make use of the csv module on that file

3) you need to extract the column

Thus it would looks something like

  column = int(sys.argv[2])
  f = open(sys.argv[1], "rb")
  r = csv.reader(f)
  try:
    for row in r:
      values.append(int(row[column]))
  finally:
    f.close()

which can be obtusely written as

  values = [int(row[column]) for row in csv.reader(open(sys.argv[1], "rb"))]

though the more expanded version allows you to do better error
handling (rows with insufficient columns, non-numeric/non-integer
values in the specified column, etc).

-tkc





From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 14:22:09 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:22:09 +1100
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:10 AM, brian cleere <briancleere at gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the problem is with the for loop but don't know how to fix. Any help with explanation would be appreciated.

Your problem is akin to debugging an empty file :) It's not so much a
matter of fixing what's not working as of starting at the very
beginning: How do you iterate over the content of a CSV file?

Now, you're almost there... partly. You have the split() call, which
will split on the comma, so if you go that route, all you need to do
is open the file, using the aptly-named builtin function "open".
You'll find docs on that if you do a quick search.

But you're actually part-way to the better solution. You're importing
the 'csv' module, which is exactly what you need here. All you need is
to read up on its docs:

http://docs.python.org/3/library/csv.html

I'm sure you can figure out the rest of your homework from there!

Now, with that out of the way, I'd like to just mention a couple of
other things.

>    print('Please specify a filename and column number: {} [csvfile] [column]'.format(sys.argv[0]))

Square brackets in a usage description often mean "optional". You may
want to be careful of that. There's no really good solution though.

> csum = sum(values)
> cavg = sum(values)/len(values)

Once you've calculated the sum once, you can reuse that to calculate
the average. Can you see how? :)

And finally: You're using Google Groups to post, which means your
paragraphs are unwrapped, and - unless you fight very hard against a
stupidly buggy piece of software - your replies will be malformed and
ugly. Don't make yourself look bad; switch to a better newsreader, or
to the mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

The content is the same, you just subscribe to the list and read and
write as email.

Thanks! And welcome to the group.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 14:41:06 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:41:06 +0000
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 19:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:10 AM, brian cleere <briancleere at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I know the problem is with the for loop but don't know how to fix. Any help with explanation would be appreciated.
>
> Your problem is akin to debugging an empty file :) It's not so much a
> matter of fixing what's not working as of starting at the very
> beginning: How do you iterate over the content of a CSV file?
>
> Now, you're almost there... partly. You have the split() call, which
> will split on the comma, so if you go that route, all you need to do
> is open the file, using the aptly-named builtin function "open".
> You'll find docs on that if you do a quick search.
>
> But you're actually part-way to the better solution. You're importing
> the 'csv' module, which is exactly what you need here. All you need is
> to read up on its docs:
>
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/csv.html
>
> I'm sure you can figure out the rest of your homework from there!
>
> Now, with that out of the way, I'd like to just mention a couple of
> other things.
>
>>     print('Please specify a filename and column number: {} [csvfile] [column]'.format(sys.argv[0]))
>
> Square brackets in a usage description often mean "optional". You may
> want to be careful of that. There's no really good solution though.

There is, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/docopt/0.6.1 :)

>
>> csum = sum(values)
>> cavg = sum(values)/len(values)
>
> Once you've calculated the sum once, you can reuse that to calculate
> the average. Can you see how? :)
>
> And finally: You're using Google Groups to post, which means your
> paragraphs are unwrapped, and - unless you fight very hard against a
> stupidly buggy piece of software - your replies will be malformed and
> ugly. Don't make yourself look bad; switch to a better newsreader, or
> to the mailing list:
>
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> The content is the same, you just subscribe to the list and read and
> write as email.

Ooh 'eck, we'll have the Popular Front for the Liberation of Google 
Groups squad out in force again, vainly trying to defend the bug ridden 
crap that they insist on using, and which I obviously won't mention. 
Whoops!!!

Oh Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?
My friends all use GG, I think that's absurd.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from the nerds,
So Lord, won't you buy me Mozilla Thunderbird ?

With apologies to the late, great Janis Joplin.

>
> Thanks! And welcome to the group.
>
> ChrisA
>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 14:46:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:46:57 +1100
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Square brackets in a usage description often mean "optional". You may
>> want to be careful of that. There's no really good solution though.
>
> There is, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/docopt/0.6.1 :)

That appears to use <x> for a mandatory argument x, which is then
slightly ambiguous with shell redirection. But that's the best
notation I've ever seen for distinguishing mandatory args from fixed
keywords.

CrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 15:00:27 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:00:27 +0000
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8ag7r$jcu$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 19:46, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:41 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Square brackets in a usage description often mean "optional". You may
>>> want to be careful of that. There's no really good solution though.
>>
>> There is, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/docopt/0.6.1 :)
>
> That appears to use <x> for a mandatory argument x, which is then
> slightly ambiguous with shell redirection. But that's the best
> notation I've ever seen for distinguishing mandatory args from fixed
> keywords.
>
> CrisA
>

I use the alternative X for a mandatory argument X.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 15:03:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 07:03:40 +1100
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <l8ag7r$jcu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ag7r$jcu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp2e44NvSgm_tFJ1y-cOtmM0B-eZ_iRqiMNmfVQippnAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I use the alternative X for a mandatory argument X.

Also common, but how do you specify a keyword, then? Say you have a
command with subcommands:

$0 foo x y
Move the foo to (x,y)
$0 bar x y z
Go to bar X, order a Y, and Z it [eg 'compress', 'gzip', 'drink']

How do you show that x/y/z are mandatory args, but foo/bar are
keywords to be typed exactly? In some formats italicized text can make
that distinction, but not in pure text.

ChrisA


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 11 15:20:42 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:20:42 -0600
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp2e44NvSgm_tFJ1y-cOtmM0B-eZ_iRqiMNmfVQippnAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ag7r$jcu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmp2e44NvSgm_tFJ1y-cOtmM0B-eZ_iRqiMNmfVQippnAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131211142042.516eb2cd@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-12 07:03, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Also common, but how do you specify a keyword, then? Say you have a
> command with subcommands:
> 
> $0 foo x y
> Move the foo to (x,y)
> $0 bar x y z
> Go to bar X, order a Y, and Z it [eg 'compress', 'gzip', 'drink']
> 
> How do you show that x/y/z are mandatory args, but foo/bar are
> keywords to be typed exactly? In some formats italicized text can
> make that distinction, but not in pure text.

I prefer {} notation:

  $0 mv [--optional] {x} {y}
  $0 bar [--mutually|--exclusive] {x} {y} {z}

-tkc




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 15:20:21 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 20:20:21 +0000
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp2e44NvSgm_tFJ1y-cOtmM0B-eZ_iRqiMNmfVQippnAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmphJP7T-mjiR4AuxXhj24=qCt_Y3CTqOZY7RQX9t9fdrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ag7r$jcu$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmp2e44NvSgm_tFJ1y-cOtmM0B-eZ_iRqiMNmfVQippnAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8ahd4$uie$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 20:03, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> I use the alternative X for a mandatory argument X.
>
> Also common, but how do you specify a keyword, then? Say you have a
> command with subcommands:
>
> $0 foo x y
> Move the foo to (x,y)
> $0 bar x y z
> Go to bar X, order a Y, and Z it [eg 'compress', 'gzip', 'drink']
>
> How do you show that x/y/z are mandatory args, but foo/bar are
> keywords to be typed exactly? In some formats italicized text can make
> that distinction, but not in pure text.
>
> ChrisA
>

Haven't a clue off the top of my head so read all about it here 
https://github.com/docopt/docopt

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From cjwelborn at live.com  Wed Dec 11 19:49:16 2013
From: cjwelborn at live.com (Christopher Welborn)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 18:49:16 -0600
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmq4n-Mv=TXNKOEZifUrHm_1zgBb3pAv1sb6rVWz6SkXNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8af3h$5d7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8b164$frp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/11/2013 01:41 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 11/12/2013 19:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
> There is, https://pypi.python.org/pypi/docopt/0.6.1 :)
>

+1 for docopt. It makes everything very clear. Just type out your usage 
string, and then run docopt(usage_str) on it to get a dict of your args. 
When I saw the video at http://docopt.org my jaw dropped. I couldn't 
believe all of the arg parsing junk I had been writing for even the 
smallest scripts. The other arg parsing libs make it easier than 
manually doing it, but docopt is magic.


-- 

- Christopher Welborn <cjwelborn at live.com>
   http://welbornprod.com



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 11 14:34:30 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:34:30 +0000
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
In-Reply-To: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8aen5$un6$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 11/12/2013 19:10, brian cleere wrote:
> I know the problem is with the for loop but don't know how to fix. Any help with explanation would be appreciated.
>
> #!/bin/env python
> import csv

You never use the csv module.

> import sys
>
> if len(sys.argv) < 3:
>      print('Please specify a filename and column number: {} [csvfile] [column]'.format(sys.argv[0]))
>      sys.exit(1)
>
> filename = sys.argv[1]
> column = int(sys.argv[2])
>
> for line in filename() , column ():

You're trying to loop around the filename and the column, you need to 
open the file and loop around that.

>      elements = line.strip().split(',')

Please don't do this when you've got the csv module to do things for you.

>      values.append(int(elements[col]))

Where did values come from?  Is it col or column, please make your mind up?

So let's stick things together.  Something like.

values = []
with open(filename) as csvfile:
     valuereader = csv.reader(csvfile)
     for row in valuereader:
         values.append(int(row[column]))

>
> csum = sum(values)
> cavg = sum(values)/len(values)
> print("Sum of column %d: %f" % (col, csum))
> print("Avg of column %d: %f" % (col, cavg))

I like consistency, new style formatting here, old style above, still if 
it works for you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From morefool at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:36:40 2013
From: morefool at gmail.com (M.F.)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:36:40 +0800
Subject: adding values from a csv column and getting the mean. beginner
 help
References: <e3a75021-32a2-471e-b486-51d1b28ffef6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8b3u8$lru$1@speranza.aioe.org>

On 12/12/2013 03:10 AM, brian cleere wrote:
> I know the problem is with the for loop but don't know how to fix. Any help with explanation would be appreciated.
>
> #!/bin/env python
> import csv
> import sys
>
> if len(sys.argv) < 3:
>      print('Please specify a filename and column number: {} [csvfile] [column]'.format(sys.argv[0]))
>      sys.exit(1)
>
> filename = sys.argv[1]
> column = int(sys.argv[2])


> for line in filename() , column ():
>      elements = line.strip().split(',')
>      values.append(int(elements[col]))

"filename" is a string, and "column" is an integer, the interpreter 
should warn you that they are not callable
the above three lines could be changed to
==>
values = []
for line in open(filename):
      elements = line.strip().split(',')
      values.append(int(elements[column]))

or now that you have the "csv" module, you can use "csv.reader" to parse 
the file:
==>
values = [ row[column] for row in csv.reader(open(filename, 'rb')) if 
len(row) > column ]

>
> csum = sum(values)
> cavg = sum(values)/len(values)
> print("Sum of column %d: %f" % (col, csum))
> print("Avg of column %d: %f" % (col, cavg))
>



From spk265 at nyu.edu  Wed Dec 11 14:26:15 2013
From: spk265 at nyu.edu (Shyam Parimal Katti)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 14:26:15 -0500
Subject: Tracking the status of python script execution
Message-ID: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All,

I am looking for a library that can help me trace the status of a live
python script execution. i.e if I have a python script `x.py` with 200
lines, when I execute the script with `python x.py`, is there a way to
trace the status of this execution in terms of number of lines executed so
far?

Background: We have a Web page with "Run" button that executes the program
`x.py` when a user clicks it. We were looking of a way to keep the user
informed about the status of run by using: (no. of lines executed/total
lines) *100. Since the script `x.py` is running multiple sql queries, it
usually won't be the case that the script would complete within few seconds
of its execution.


Regards
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 14:34:24 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:34:24 +1100
Subject: Tracking the status of python script execution
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqYMMzAHfQhCG1bWDFCeWWaceG599BemzHZX7CuSbci=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Shyam Parimal Katti <spk265 at nyu.edu> wrote:
> I am looking for a library that can help me trace the status of a live
> python script execution. i.e if I have a python script `x.py` with 200
> lines, when I execute the script with `python x.py`, is there a way to trace
> the status of this execution in terms of number of lines executed so far?
>
> Background: We have a Web page with "Run" button that executes the program
> `x.py` when a user clicks it. We were looking of a way to keep the user
> informed about the status of run by using: (no. of lines executed/total
> lines) *100. Since the script `x.py` is running multiple sql queries, it
> usually won't be the case that the script would complete within few seconds
> of its execution.

That's a bit tricky. More useful would probably be to explicitly
pepper your code with calls to some "still active" function, but it's
going to be nearly impossible to get any sort of viable percent-done
based on lines of code. There might be one primary loop that takes 80%
of the execution time or more.

You mention SQL queries. Can you wrap up the query handler in
something that effectively treats _those_ as your fundamental
divisions of "job-done-ness"? I'm not sure how (in either case,
actually) you'd automatically figure out how many there are to do
(either lines or queries), so you may still have to have something
externally count them up - which would still not work if there's a
loop, though with queries it's less sane to have a loop executing them
than lines of code.

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:10:49 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:10:49 -0800
Subject: Tracking the status of python script execution
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oJf5QQOw_VYgg3QGcgmRtp4vBeOJx0ttaYuO_PZbQLGA@mail.gmail.com>

Long ago, I saw a C program that took another C program as input.  It would
output a copy of the original C program, interspersed with fprintf's that
would display the text of the line current being executed.

You might write something similar for Python, perhaps outputting the line
being executed and/or the line number.  You could have it open a file in
/tmp or something.
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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 12 17:00:11 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:00:11 -0500
Subject: Tracking the status of python script execution
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZ6Z-36zc4YSA995D+-+UC1j3Aiw9-7f8EAhcp=XRsfkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8dbl1$9p3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/11/13 2:26 PM, Shyam Parimal Katti wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I am looking for a library that can help me trace the status of a live
> python script execution. i.e if I have a python script `x.py` with 200
> lines, when I execute the script with `python x.py`, is there a way to
> trace the status of this execution in terms of number of lines executed
> so far?
>
> Background: We have a Web page with "Run" button that executes the
> program `x.py` when a user clicks it. We were looking of a way to keep
> the user informed about the status of run by using: (no. of lines
> executed/total lines) *100. Since the script `x.py` is running multiple
> sql queries, it usually won't be the case that the script would complete
> within few seconds of its execution.

Using sys.settrace, you could write a tool to track the lines being 
executed in any Python program.  But your problem is different than that 
in two ways:

1) You don't need to track any Python program, you need to track your 
particular Python program.

2) You want the output to take into account the "total number of lines", 
which means you have to somehow configure it ahead of time.

Both of these factors point to using a more specialized approach, by way 
of modifying your program.  I like Chris' idea of simply tracking the 
progress of the SQL queries since they are taking the time.


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:08:00 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:08:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
Message-ID: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>

I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
allows me to enter e.g.
*IDN?
after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
#!/usr/bin/env python

"""
A simple echo client
"""
import socket
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
size = 10
s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
s.connect((host,port))
s.send('*IDN?')
data = s.recv(size)
s.close()
print 'Received:', data

Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?
thanks in advance
jean


From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 18:20:36 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:20:36 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qjSfLiJm45gx+zduPPdv+fQ2vR+2rRLhPYvXKV107mMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> allows me to enter e.g.
> *IDN?
> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument
> back.
> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
>

Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
of performance or reliability.

The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every transmission -
in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless you're on a heavy
loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path MTU Discovery, and bear in
mind that paths can change during a TCP session).  But writing your code
assuming it will never happen is a bad idea.

For this reason, I wrote
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away
these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are
examples on the web page.

HTH
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From conorh at conorh.net  Wed Dec 11 18:38:12 2013
From: conorh at conorh.net (Conor Hughes)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 15:38:12 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>

Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> writes:

> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> allows me to enter e.g.
> *IDN?
> after which I get an identification string of the measurement
> instrument back.
> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:

In what way does it not work? Do you not get any data? Do you get the
wrong data? Does your program block at a point which you do not
understand?

Probably more to the point, are you sure you are sending exactly the
same data as you did with netcat? netcat running with stdin a terminal
sends data line-by-line, and includes the newline in the data that it
sends. You didn't send a newline in your example.


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:08:16 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:08:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
Message-ID: <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:38:12 AM UTC+1, Conor Hughes wrote:
> Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> 
> > measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> 
> > e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> 
> > allows me to enter e.g.
> 
> > *IDN?
> 
> > after which I get an identification string of the measurement
> 
> > instrument back.
> 
> > I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> 
> > and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> 
> 
> 
> In what way does it not work? Do you not get any data? Do you get the
> 
> wrong data? Does your program block at a point which you do not
> 
> understand?
> 
> 
> 
> Probably more to the point, are you sure you are sending exactly the
> 
> same data as you did with netcat? netcat running with stdin a terminal
> 
> sends data line-by-line, and includes the newline in the data that it
> 
> sends. You didn't send a newline in your example.
Thanks for the reply, I changed the line you mentioned to
s.send('*IDN?\n')
Rerunning the program then shows me as response the first time
Received:
The measurement instrument gives a beep indicating it receives something
which is however not recognized als normal input

Running the script a  second time, the program hangs.. and I have to reboot the adapter

kind regards,
jean


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:21:32 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:21:32 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
 <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqZK9qq+PBmSAU6pJLG04vQJ42+Fv=fs3Bj_BmQ17-Hyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply, I changed the line you mentioned to
> s.send('*IDN?\n')

See if there's a newline issue - you might need \r\n here.

ChrisA


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 04:21:27 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:21:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3970.1386836496.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
 <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3970.1386836496.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d92123da-f4c1-45a0-ad64-4ec4f881d388@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:21:32 AM UTC+1, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the reply, I changed the line you mentioned to
> 
> > s.send('*IDN?\n')
> 
> 
> 
> See if there's a newline issue - you might need \r\n here.
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA

I changed it as you suggested to:

 s.send('*IDN?\r\n')

unfortunately this doesn't change the result, first run give as response:
Received: 
second run makes the program hang and the adapter needs rebooting

kind regards,
jean


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec 12 09:05:50 2013
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (Alister)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:05:50 GMT
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
 <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3970.1386836496.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d92123da-f4c1-45a0-ad64-4ec4f881d388@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2pjqu.23361$lc4.20507@fx26.am4>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:21:27 -0800, Jean Dubois wrote:

> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:21:32 AM UTC+1, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > Thanks for the reply, I changed the line you mentioned to
>> 
>> > s.send('*IDN?\n')
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> See if there's a newline issue - you might need \r\n here.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ChrisA
> 
> I changed it as you suggested to:
> 
>  s.send('*IDN?\r\n')
> 
> unfortunately this doesn't change the result, first run give as
> response:
> Received:
> second run makes the program hang and the adapter needs rebooting
> 
> kind regards,
> jean

you probably need to use something like wireshark to see what is actually 
happening and compare it to a good connection in the normal way.




-- 
Save energy:  Drive a smaller shell.


From alister.ware at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec 12 09:05:20 2013
From: alister.ware at ntlworld.com (Alister)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:05:20 GMT
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
 <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3970.1386836496.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d92123da-f4c1-45a0-ad64-4ec4f881d388@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Aojqu.22$kI.14@fx01.am4>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:21:27 -0800, Jean Dubois wrote:

> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:21:32 AM UTC+1, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > Thanks for the reply, I changed the line you mentioned to
>> 
>> > s.send('*IDN?\n')
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> See if there's a newline issue - you might need \r\n here.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ChrisA
> 
> I changed it as you suggested to:
> 
>  s.send('*IDN?\r\n')
> 
> unfortunately this doesn't change the result, first run give as
> response:
> Received:
> second run makes the program hang and the adapter needs rebooting
> 
> kind regards,
> jean

you probably need to use something like wireshark to see what is actually 
happening and compare it to a good connection in the normal way.




-- 
Save energy:  Drive a smaller shell.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 09:34:24 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:34:24 +0000
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <Aojqu.22$kI.14@fx01.am4>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <87zjo7dkm3.fsf@conorh.net>
 <0b1e5e56-0296-4785-b3f2-b123131d8cae@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3970.1386836496.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d92123da-f4c1-45a0-ad64-4ec4f881d388@googlegroups.com>
 <Aojqu.22$kI.14@fx01.am4>
Message-ID: <l8chhg$8gm$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 14:05, Alister wrote:
>
> you probably need to use something like wireshark to see what is actually
> happening and compare it to a good connection in the normal way.
>

You've sent this twice old chap, you've a configuration issue somewhere 
I'd guess :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:28:32 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:28:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> 
> 
> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> 
> allows me to enter e.g.
> 
> *IDN?
> 
> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
> 
> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> 
> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> 
> 
> 
> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake of performance or reliability.
> 
> 
> The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every transmission - in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless you're on a heavy loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path MTU Discovery, and bear in mind that paths can change during a TCP session).? But writing your code assuming it will never happen is a bad idea.
> 
> 
> 
> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.? There are examples on the web page.
> 
> 
> 
> HTH

Dear Dan, 
Could you copy paste here the code for your function I have to add to my "program"?

thanks in advance
jean


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:23:22 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:23:22 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qTuQ9EJ5ghbYgPJQBMkYj1SC2Ue-RnfVaO1zXCU17eGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
>>
>>
>> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
>>
>> allows me to enter e.g.
>>
>> *IDN?
>>
>> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
>>
>> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
>>
>> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
>>
>>
>>
>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake of performance or reliability.
>>
>>
>> The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every transmission - in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless you're on a heavy loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path MTU Discovery, and bear in mind that paths can change during a TCP session).  But writing your code assuming it will never happen is a bad idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.
>>
>>
>>
>> HTH
>
> Dear Dan,
> Could you copy paste here the code for your function I have to add to my "program"?

This is untested, but it should be something like the following:

#!/usr/bin/env python

"""
A simple echo client
"""
import socket as socket_mod
import bufsock as bufsock_mod
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
size = 10
socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
socket.connect((host,port))
bufsock = bufsock_mod.bufsock(socket)
bufsock.send('*IDN?')
data = bufsock.recv(size)
bufsock.close()
print 'Received:', data

You might look over
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19918307/retrieve-file-information-located-on-a-different-application-server-using-python/19918706#19918706
for a more complete example.


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 22:23:18 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:23:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>

Op donderdag 12 december 2013 22:23:22 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> 
> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> 
> >>
> 
> >> allows me to enter e.g.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> *IDN?
> 
> >>
> 
> >> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> 
> >>
> 
> >> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake of performance or reliability.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every transmission - in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless you're on a heavy loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path MTU Discovery, and bear in mind that paths can change during a TCP session).  But writing your code assuming it will never happen is a bad idea.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> HTH
> 
> >
> 
> > Dear Dan,
> 
> > Could you copy paste here the code for your function I have to add to my "program"?
> 
> 
> 
> This is untested, but it should be something like the following:
> 
> 
> 
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> 
> 
> """
> 
> A simple echo client
> 
> """
> 
> import socket as socket_mod
> 
> import bufsock as bufsock_mod
> 
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> 
> port = 7000
> 
> size = 10
> 
> socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> 
> socket.connect((host,port))
> 
> bufsock = bufsock_mod.bufsock(socket)
> 
> bufsock.send('*IDN?')
> 
> data = bufsock.recv(size)
> 
> bufsock.close()
> 
> print 'Received:', data
> 
> 
> 
> You might look over
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19918307/retrieve-file-information-located-on-a-different-application-server-using-python/19918706#19918706
> 
> for a more complete example.

Thank you very much for the example, the only trouble I'm having now is installing the bufsock module:
wget http://dcs.nac.uci.edu/~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz 
results in The requested URL /~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz was not found on this server.
Could you supply me the necessary installation instructions?

kind regards,
jean
p.s. I'm using Linux/Kubuntu 11.04


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 22:32:30 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:32:30 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_q9wu6jeExhTFHL2v-sDC=BWAPwdt47-MaMWkUAYiU4mg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Op donderdag 12 december 2013 22:23:22 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:

>> >> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.

> Thank you very much for the example, the only trouble I'm having now is installing the bufsock module:
> wget http://dcs.nac.uci.edu/~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz
> results in The requested URL /~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz was not found on this server.
> Could you supply me the necessary installation instructions?

That's an old link.  It's now at
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html

HTH


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 03:35:18 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:35:18 +0000
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8egs4$nbn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 03:23, Jean Dubois wrote:
>
> kind regards,
> jean
> p.s. I'm using Linux/Kubuntu 11.04
>

Would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing that accompanied the above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:03:40 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 03:03:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4045.1386905558.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4045.1386905558.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf056540-9777-4f3b-a596-69b7751a4ce4@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 04:32:30 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Op donderdag 12 december 2013 22:23:22 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> 
> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >> >> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.
> 
> 
> 
> > Thank you very much for the example, the only trouble I'm having now is installing the bufsock module:
> 
> > wget http://dcs.nac.uci.edu/~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz
> 
> > results in The requested URL /~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz was not found on this server.
> 
> > Could you supply me the necessary installation instructions?
> 
> 
> 
> That's an old link.  It's now at
> 
> http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html
> 
> 
> 
> HTH

I surfed to the new download-link  (http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/) but I don't see any instructions how to download or install
bufsock.py, I see it has something to do with svn which I don't know how to handle. Could you help me with that too?

thanks in advance
jean


http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:56:44 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 03:56:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4045.1386905558.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4045.1386905558.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b60026dc-3599-4806-9ec9-89a26ea513b2@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 04:32:30 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:23 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Op donderdag 12 december 2013 22:23:22 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> 
> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >> >> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.
> 
> 
> 
> > Thank you very much for the example, the only trouble I'm having now is installing the bufsock module:
> 
> > wget http://dcs.nac.uci.edu/~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz
> 
> > results in The requested URL /~strombrg/bufsock.tar.gz was not found on this server.
> 
> > Could you supply me the necessary installation instructions?
> 
> 
> 
> That's an old link.  It's now at
> 
> http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html
> 
> 
> 
> HTH

I surfed to the new download-link  (http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/) but I don't see any instructions how to download or install
bufsock.py, I see it has something to do with svn which I don't know how to handle. Could you help me with that too?

thanks in advance
jean


http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 07:20:03 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 04:20:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 09:35:18 UTC+1 schreef Mark Lawrence:

> Would you please read and action this 
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
> double line spacing that accompanied the above, thanks.
>
> -- 

>
> Mark Lawrence

Dear Mark,
I'm sorry for the inconvenience my postings may have caused. I now have
followed
the instructions on the link you mentioned and installed the plugin en
python-script.

hope it worked (I saw the text light up yellow when pressing the edit-key a second time). A small suggestion from a newbie: it would perhaps be possible
to make the script check itself whether pyhon2 or python3 should be used?

thanks for having patience with me
kind regards,
jean


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 12:04:14 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:04:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0066006f-6be6-40d0-b147-400bd81bfae7@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50:03 PM UTC+5:30, Jean Dubois wrote:
> Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 09:35:18 UTC+1 schreef Mark Lawrence:

> > Would you please read and action this 
> > https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
> > double line spacing that accompanied the above, thanks.
> > -- 

> > Mark Lawrence

> Dear Mark,
> I'm sorry for the inconvenience my postings may have caused. I now have
> followed
> the instructions on the link you mentioned and installed the plugin en
> python-script.

Thanks for cooperating

> hope it worked (I saw the text light up yellow when pressing the edit-key a second time). A small suggestion from a newbie: it would perhaps be possible
> to make the script check itself whether pyhon2 or python3 should be used?

Yes... Half way
The double-spacing problem is cured
However the long-lines remain (see your "hope it worked..." above)
Did you click the edit button both before and after your typing?

The 'before' should remove the double-spaced (old >...) lines
The 'after' should even out the right margins of what you've just typed

> thanks for having patience with me

Yes and you too please bear with us as we iron out this little irritant niggle



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 12:09:50 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:09:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <d59a2940-5818-4c4c-8103-12a918713bfb@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50:03 PM UTC+5:30, Jean Dubois wrote:
> to make the script check itself whether pyhon2 or python3 should be used?

As far as I know both (2 and 3) worked
Do you have some reason to suspect one works and other not?


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 08:11:27 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:11:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <d59a2940-5818-4c4c-8103-12a918713bfb@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <b4014175-e032-409f-857a-93b688efae4b@googlegroups.com>
 <d59a2940-5818-4c4c-8103-12a918713bfb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <403bad3a-5d8b-4814-87f0-84b18be842cf@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 18:09:50 UTC+1 schreef rusi:
> On Friday, December 13, 2013 5:50:03 PM UTC+5:30, Jean Dubois wrote:
> > to make the script check itself whether pyhon2 or python3 should be used?
> As far as I know both (2 and 3) worked
> Do you have some reason to suspect one works and other not?

The reason I suggested this is that the script has #!/usr/bin/env python3
as the first line. When you have python2 installed and not python3 a
newbie will
probably not understand why it doesn't work.

kind regards,
jean



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 08:14:40 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:14:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6ac262ef-507e-471c-ba1f-8ef954b93972@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 09:35:18 UTC+1 schreef Mark Lawrence:
> On 13/12/2013 03:23, Jean Dubois wrote:
> >
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> > p.s. I'm using Linux/Kubuntu 11.04
> >
> Would you please read and action this 
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
> double line spacing that accompanied the above, thanks.
I think I got it right this time. Thanks for helping me through it.

kind regards,
jean


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 08:29:40 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:29:40 +0000
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <6ac262ef-507e-471c-ba1f-8ef954b93972@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <693052e5-a884-460a-8dc1-9a13b6d829aa@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4051.1386923741.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <6ac262ef-507e-471c-ba1f-8ef954b93972@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8hmg6$rmb$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 13:14, Jean Dubois wrote:
> Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 09:35:18 UTC+1 schreef Mark Lawrence:
>> On 13/12/2013 03:23, Jean Dubois wrote:
>>>
>>> kind regards,
>>> jean
>>> p.s. I'm using Linux/Kubuntu 11.04
>>>
>> Would you please read and action this
>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the
>> double line spacing that accompanied the above, thanks.
> I think I got it right this time. Thanks for helping me through it.
>
> kind regards,
> jean
>

Yep, I've seen a couple of your posts that are just fine.  Thanks for 
taking these steps, I greatly appreciate your efforts.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 04:40:08 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 01:40:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <341e261d-ea7b-4d5a-ab41-9c0d44352d2b@googlegroups.com>

Op donderdag 12 december 2013 22:23:22 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:28 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 12, 2013 12:20:36 AM UTC+1, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandu... at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> >>
> >>
> >> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> >>
> >> allows me to enter e.g.
> >>
> >> *IDN?
> >>
> >> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
> >>
> >> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> >>
> >> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake of performance or reliability.
> >>
> >>
> >> The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every transmission - in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless you're on a heavy loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path MTU Discovery, and bear in mind that paths can change during a TCP session).  But writing your code assuming it will never happen is a bad idea.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> For this reason, I wrote http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/bufsock.html , which abstracts away these complications, and actually makes things pretty simple.  There are examples on the web page.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> HTH
> >
> > Dear Dan,
> > Could you copy paste here the code for your function I have to add to my "program"?
> This is untested, but it should be something like the following:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> """
> A simple echo client
> """
> import socket as socket_mod
> import bufsock as bufsock_mod
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> size = 10
> socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> socket.connect((host,port))
> bufsock = bufsock_mod.bufsock(socket)
> bufsock.send('*IDN?')
> data = bufsock.recv(size)
> bufsock.close()
> print 'Received:', data
> You might look over
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19918307/retrieve-file-information-located-on-a-different-application-server-using-python/19918706#19918706
> for a more complete example.
So this is what I did:
1. svn checkout http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/
2. cd ~/bufsock/trunk
3. I made this test-file "buftest.py" with the following contents:
#!/usr/bin/env python

"""
A simple echo client
"""
import socket as socket_mod
import bufsock as bufsock_mod
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
size = 10
socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
socket.connect((host,port))
bufsock = bufsock_mod.bufsock(socket)
bufsock.send('*IDN?')
data = bufsock.recv(size)
bufsock.close()
print 'Received:', data 

4. chmod +x buftest.py
5. ./buftest.py
6. This results in the following error message:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./buftest.py", line 11, in <module>
    socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
NameError: name 'socket' is not defined

Probably there is still something wrong, can anyone here help me further?

kind regards,
jean


From airween at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 05:04:22 2013
From: airween at gmail.com (Ervin =?utf-8?Q?Heged=C3=BCs?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:04:22 +0100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <341e261d-ea7b-4d5a-ab41-9c0d44352d2b@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d05fddc8-ad6c-488b-b0d2-ad5257b2aac8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4026.1386883409.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <341e261d-ea7b-4d5a-ab41-9c0d44352d2b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131216100421.GA4435@arxnet.hu>

hello,

> #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> """
> A simple echo client
> """
> import socket as socket_mod
> import bufsock as bufsock_mod
[...]
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./buftest.py", line 11, in <module>
>     socket = socket_mod.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> NameError: name 'socket' is not defined

you should replace the socket.AF_INET to socket_mod.AF_INET, and
socket.SOCK_STREAM to socket_mod.SOCK_STREAM, if you've imported
socket modul as socket_mod. But this is just an idea... :)


a.


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Thu Dec 12 09:16:46 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:16:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-11, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
>> measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
>> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
>> allows me to enter e.g.
>> *IDN?
>> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument
>> back.
>> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
>> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
>>
>
> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
> of performance or reliability.

Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]

> The confusing thing about this is, it won't be done on every
> transmission - in fact, it'll probably happen rather seldom unless
> you're on a heavy loaded network or have some MTU issues (see Path
> MTU Discovery, and bear in mind that paths can change during a TCP
> session).  But writing your code assuming it will never happen is a
> bad idea.

And it _will_ fail someday in some odd circumstance when, for example,
some customer is be using it via a dial-up PPP connection, or there is
a satellite link in the path, or there's a flakey router somewhere,
or...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Those people look
                                  at               exactly like Donnie and
                              gmail.com            Marie Osmond!!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:23:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:23:34 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrd-Uc7N81yJyHrvuUY_rHfaYKXfsUM+yRA1CVfyy+ASg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> And it _will_ fail someday in some odd circumstance when, for example,
> some customer is be using it via a dial-up PPP connection, or there is
> a satellite link in the path, or there's a flakey router somewhere,
> or...

Or you write, write, write in quick succession. Nagle's Algorithm
means that if the first one hasn't yet been acknowledged, the second
one will be delayed, which means it'll probably be combined with the
third and sent when the first one's ACK comes through. Stream sockets
guarantee a stream of bytes; datagram sockets guarantee datagrams.
Weird how that goes, isn't it?

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:27:16 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:27:16 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
>> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
>> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
>> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
>> of performance or reliability.
>
> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]

I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?

http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:58:49 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:58:49 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrmpvhUTif3cYYp-yCbuK2O6ZkXEcJPNt1Ca37fV+1qrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
>>> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
>>> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
>>> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
>>> of performance or reliability.
>>
>> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
>> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
>> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]
>
> I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
> least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
> Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?
>
> http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/

I'm no expert on this (mostly I do TCP, or UDP with fairly small
packets), but the packet should be reassembled at the far end. When
your application comes to receive it, it'll receive the entire UDP
packet as a whole.

UDP fragmentation has several problems. First, if any fragment is
lost, it won't be retransmitted (as TCP will), so the whole datagram
is lost. And secondly, if you stream data across the network in a
series of packets just a little too large to fit, each one will get
split in two and you'll end up with twice as many packets going out,
ergo abysmal performance. With TCP, there's the chance that the sender
and receiver can between them figure out what packet size to use (cf
path MTU discovery), but that won't happen with UDP unless the
application consciously does it. So it's something to be cautious of
in terms of performance, but if you want to send large UDP packets
because they make sense, just go ahead and do it.

Now, if you want reliability AND datagrams, it's a lot easier to add
boundaries to a TCP stream (sentinel or length prefixes) than to add
reliability to UDP...

ChrisA


From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 12 19:52:59 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:52:59 -0500
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.2053769439282001763@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:27:16 -0800, Dan Stromberg 
<drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards 
<invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
> least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if 
the
> Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?

A router doesn't talk udp or tcp, it deals with ip packets, which it 
IS permitted to fragment. 

Conversely the udp layer in the os doesn't care about MTU.

-- 
DaveA



From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 11:10:46 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:10:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fbi6$6q2$2@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-12, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> Now, if you want reliability AND datagrams, it's a lot easier to add
> boundaries to a TCP stream (sentinel or length prefixes) than to add
> reliability to UDP...

It's unfortunate that there's no standardized reliable
connection-oriented datagram protocol.  The linux kernel implements 
one for Unix domain sockets (SOCK_SEQPACKET), and its really, really
useful.

Adding boundaries to a TCP stream achieves the same goal (and isn't
that hard to do), but since there's no standard for it, people keep
having to reinvent it (often badly and always incompaibly).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Hello...  IRON
                                  at               CURTAIN?  Send over a
                              gmail.com            SAUSAGE PIZZA!  World War
                                                   III?  No thanks!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:19:21 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:19:21 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8fbi6$6q2$2@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbi6$6q2$2@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqU3+=CMiptb7XOgdWKo+WNdSh1s86aO=fFnDr7_-jF1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Adding boundaries to a TCP stream achieves the same goal (and isn't
> that hard to do), but since there's no standard for it, people keep
> having to reinvent it (often badly and always incompaibly).

Nearest to a standard would be the way heaps of internet protocols are
line-based - SMTP, POP, IMAP, FTP, and to a lesser extent HTTP as
well. The end-of-line sequence \r\n delimits messages.

ChrisA


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 11:57:10 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:57:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbi6$6q2$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4074.1386951891.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fe96$i0k$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-13, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Adding boundaries to a TCP stream achieves the same goal (and isn't
>> that hard to do), but since there's no standard for it, people keep
>> having to reinvent it (often badly and always incompaibly).
>
> Nearest to a standard would be the way heaps of internet protocols are
> line-based - SMTP, POP, IMAP, FTP, and to a lesser extent HTTP as
> well. The end-of-line sequence \r\n delimits messages.

And that works very nicely for things that transport text.  It's easy
to implement, easy to debug, easy to test.  But, when you need to
transport binary data, it gets ugly and compatibility problems start
to arise pretty quickly.

One could also borrow standards from the old-school serial world and
us the SYN/STX/ETX framing with byte stuffing used by HDLC et al.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! My vaseline is
                                  at               RUNNING...
                              gmail.com            


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 12:05:45 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 04:05:45 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8fe96$i0k$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbi6$6q2$2@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4074.1386951891.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fe96$i0k$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmouFoY117VUdOHb-9i+nFMS8TkqSTvG2BmhDaXnW08jZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:57 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2013-12-13, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:10 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Adding boundaries to a TCP stream achieves the same goal (and isn't
>>> that hard to do), but since there's no standard for it, people keep
>>> having to reinvent it (often badly and always incompaibly).
>>
>> Nearest to a standard would be the way heaps of internet protocols are
>> line-based - SMTP, POP, IMAP, FTP, and to a lesser extent HTTP as
>> well. The end-of-line sequence \r\n delimits messages.
>
> And that works very nicely for things that transport text.  It's easy
> to implement, easy to debug, easy to test.  But, when you need to
> transport binary data, it gets ugly and compatibility problems start
> to arise pretty quickly.
>
> One could also borrow standards from the old-school serial world and
> us the SYN/STX/ETX framing with byte stuffing used by HDLC et al.

Yeah, or if it's a tight binary protocol with occasional bits of
bigger payload, either MIDI or TELNET could offer ideas. MIDI's SysEx
message can carry whatever is needed of it, and TELNET has
subnegotiation that can be used for the odd thingy or so. But for a
generic binary stream-of-messages pipe (as opposed to the
stream-of-bytes pipe that TCP normally offers), probably the easiest
is to precede each write with an N-byte length... and somehow
negotiate what N should be. (And endianness, but hopefully that's just
network byte order.)

Standards are awesome, there are so many to choose from! http://xkcd.com/927/

ChrisA


From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 07:38:06 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 04:38:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 5:58:49 AM UTC+8, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:27 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
> 
> >>> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
> 
> >>> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
> 
> >>> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
> 
> >>> of performance or reliability.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
> 
> >> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
> 
> >> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]
> 
> >
> 
> > I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
> 
> > least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
> 
> > Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?
> 
> >
> 
> > http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/
> 
> 
> 
> I'm no expert on this (mostly I do TCP, or UDP with fairly small
> 
> packets), but the packet should be reassembled at the far end. When
> 
> your application comes to receive it, it'll receive the entire UDP
> 
> packet as a whole.
> 
> 
> 
> UDP fragmentation has several problems. First, if any fragment is
> 
> lost, it won't be retransmitted (as TCP will), so the whole datagram
> 
> is lost. And secondly, if you stream data across the network in a
> 
> series of packets just a little too large to fit, each one will get
> 
> split in two and you'll end up with twice as many packets going out,
> 
> ergo abysmal performance. With TCP, there's the chance that the sender
> 
> and receiver can between them figure out what packet size to use (cf
> 
> path MTU discovery), but that won't happen with UDP unless the
> 
> application consciously does it. So it's something to be cautious of
> 
> in terms of performance, but if you want to send large UDP packets
> 
> because they make sense, just go ahead and do it.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, if you want reliability AND datagrams, it's a lot easier to add
> 
> boundaries to a TCP stream (sentinel or length prefixes) than to add
> 
> reliability to UDP...
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA
It is trivial to use UDP with 
forward error correction such as 
the CD in 1982.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 07:59:47 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:59:47 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpPXwQxiGTEZE4kgksBezNp9N87sqP_mAyYw_htNkObUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:38 PM, 88888 Dihedral
<dihedral88888 at gmail.com> wrote:
> It is trivial to use UDP with
> forward error correction such as
> the CD in 1982.

This is another reason for moving to IPv6. With IPv4, the size of a
datagram is limited to 64KB, but with IPv6, you could carry an entire
CD's contents in a single message. You could not carry a DVD, though,
so Dihedral is quite correct to cite the CD here.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 16 09:03:17 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:03:17 -0500
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-7A1B3D.09031716122013@news.panix.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 5:58:49 AM UTC+8, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > Now, if you want reliability AND datagrams, it's a lot easier to add
> > boundaries to a TCP stream (sentinel or length prefixes) than to add
> > reliability to UDP...

In article <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525 at googlegroups.com>,
 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888 at gmail.com> wrote:

> It is trivial to use UDP with 
> forward error correction such as 
> the CD in 1982.

CD uses Reed-Solomon coding, which is great for correcting the types of 
errors expected on a CD.  Namely, bursts of bit errors caused by 
localized failure of the optical coating, scratches, dirt, etc.  It 
wouldn't be hard to build something like that on top of UDP, but those 
sorts of errors are not what you typically see in networks.

It's relatively rare for a bit to get corrupted in a network packet.  
And, when it does, it's almost certainly caught by lower-level 
mechanisms such as ethernet frame CRC.  Much more likely is for a packet 
to get dropped because of queue overflow, or for sequential packets to 
arrive out of order due to multiple transmission paths with different 
latencies.  Those are the sorts of things TCP protects against.

Sure, you could implement retransmit timers and packet reordering in 
user code, but it would be distinctly non-trivial and ultimately you 
would end up reinventing most of TCP.  Except that your implementation 
would suck compared to the kernel algorithms which have been 
continuously tested and fine-tuned for the past 30 years.


From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 02:20:17 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 23:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <roy-7A1B3D.09031716122013@news.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CAGGBd_oAG_fnrzBF4aAzpSB_BzFddGN02spg5gW9P_TUZb_YZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4030.1386885532.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <11cb8cd3-7a12-46b2-abc6-53fbc2a54525@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-7A1B3D.09031716122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <36d5691b-f3a8-48b9-bdf0-9f9b2e413e2e@googlegroups.com>


>  88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > It is trivial to use UDP with 
> 
> > forward error correction such as 
> 
> > the CD in 1982.
> 
> 
> 
> CD uses Reed-Solomon coding, which is great for correcting the types of 
> 
> errors expected on a CD.  Namely, bursts of bit errors caused by 
> 
> localized failure of the optical coating, scratches, dirt, etc.  It 
> 

Don't you interleave your bytes of data
first before forming several UDP 
packets to send to the receiver?

If a whole packet is lost or 
timed out, then just mark missed bytes
in the missed UDP as erasures.

> wouldn't be hard to build something like that on top of UDP, but those 
> 
> sorts of errors are not what you typically see in networks.
> 
> 
> 
> It's relatively rare for a bit to get corrupted in a network packet.  
> 
> And, when it does, it's almost certainly caught by lower-level 
> 
> mechanisms such as ethernet frame CRC.  Much more likely is for a packet 
> 
> to get dropped because of queue overflow, or for sequential packets to 
> 
> arrive out of order due to multiple transmission paths with different 
> 
> latencies.  Those are the sorts of things TCP protects against.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, you could implement retransmit timers and packet reordering in 
> 
> user code, but it would be distinctly non-trivial and ultimately you 
> 
> would end up reinventing most of TCP.  Except that your implementation 
> 
> would suck compared to the kernel algorithms which have been 
> 
> continuously tested and fine-tuned for the past 30 years.



From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 11:06:46 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:06:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-12, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
>>> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
>>> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
>>> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
>>> of performance or reliability.
>>
>> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
>> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
>> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]
>
> I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
> least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
> Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?
>
> http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/

You're conflating IP datagrams and Ethernet packets.  The IP stack can
fragment an IP datagram into multiple Ethernet packets which are then
reassembled by the receiving IP stack into a single datagram before
being passed up to the next layer (in this case, UDP).

Did you read the thread you pointed to?  Your question was answerd by
posting #4 in the thread you cited:

   1) Yes, packets will be fragmented at the network layer (IP), but this
      is something you do not have to worry about since the network
      layer will reassemble the fragments before passing them back up
      to the transport layer (UDP). UDP garentees preserved message
      boundaries, so you never have to worry about only receiving a
      packet fragment :~).


A few other references:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc791

 1.1. Motivation

  [...] The internet protocol provides for transmitting blocks of data
  called datagrams from sources to destinations, [...] The internet
  protocol also provides for fragmentation and reassembly of long
  datagrams, if necessary, for transmission through "small packet"
  networks.
  
  [...]  

 1.4 Operation

  [...]
 
  The internet modules use fields in the internet header to fragment
  and reassemble internet datagrams when necessary for transmission
  through "small packet" networks.
  
  [...]

>From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_fragmentation  

  If a receiving host receives a fragmented IP packet, it has to
  reassemble the datagram and pass it to the higher protocol layer.
  Reassembly is intended to happen in the receiving host but in
  practice it may be done by an intermediate router, for example,
  network address translation may need to re-assemble fragments in
  order to translate data streams, e.g. the FTP control protocol, as
  described in RFC 2993
  
-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm continually AMAZED
                                  at               at th'breathtaking effects
                              gmail.com            of WIND EROSION!!


From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 20:24:29 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:24:29 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rJDrw6DUKcegM_P7W-AT8m=hC-CBnLjs14a5-00rKyxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2013-12-12, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Sockets reserve the right to split one socket.send() into multiple
>>>> socket.recv()'s on the other end of the communication, or to aggregate
>>>> multiple socket.send()'s into a single socket.recv() - pretty much any way
>>>> the relevant IP stacks and communications equipment feel like for the sake
>>>> of performance or reliability.
>>>
>>> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserver that right.  UDP sockets
>>> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
>>> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]
>>
>> I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
>> least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
>> Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?
>>
>> http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/
>
> You're conflating IP datagrams and Ethernet packets.  The IP stack can
> fragment an IP datagram into multiple Ethernet packets which are then
> reassembled by the receiving IP stack into a single datagram before
> being passed up to the next layer (in this case, UDP).

As long as you're saying this of UDP, I have no problem with it.

I've seen TCP fragment and not be reassembled though, which suggests
to me that the reassembly's happening in UDP rather than IP.  If it's
done by IP the same way for UDP and TCP, I'd not trust it in UDP
either.

> Did you read the thread you pointed to?  Your question was answerd by
> posting #4 in the thread you cited:
>
>    1) Yes, packets will be fragmented at the network layer (IP), but this
>       is something you do not have to worry about since the network
>       layer will reassemble the fragments before passing them back up
>       to the transport layer (UDP). UDP garentees preserved message
>       boundaries, so you never have to worry about only receiving a
>       packet fragment :~).

Actually, I believe the link I sent (which I skimmed) had people
coming down on both sides of the matter.  Some said that UDP would be
fine for small datagrams, while others said it would be fine,
irrespective of size.

>
> A few other references:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc791
>
>  1.1. Motivation
>
>   [...] The internet protocol provides for transmitting blocks of data
>   called datagrams from sources to destinations, [...] The internet
>   protocol also provides for fragmentation and reassembly of long
>   datagrams, if necessary, for transmission through "small packet"
>   networks.

I've personally seen this fail to occur in TCP - EG, it can cause a
stream of bytes to be written to tape with inconsistent block sizes if
transferred over rsh or ssh.  Usually the block sizes are consistent,
but not always.  Both SunOS 4.1.x and Ultrix had this issue; Ultrix
did it less often than SunOS, but Ultrix did do it.  I don't know for
certain if later *ix have the same issue, because I've been diligently
working around it ever since, but I suspect they do.

I've seen old time socket programmers explain that it cannot be relied
upon in TCP; send() and recv() and (read() and write()) are system
calls that return a length so that you can loop on them until all
relevant data has been transferred.  They don't return that length
just so you can ignore it.

>From the Socket HOWTO
(http://docs.python.org/2/howto/sockets.html#socket-howto) :
Now we come to the major stumbling block of sockets - send and recv
operate on the network buffers. They do not necessarily handle all the
bytes you hand them (or expect from them), because their major focus
is handling the network buffers. In general, they return when the
associated network buffers have been filled (send) or emptied (recv).
They then tell you how many bytes they handled. It is your
responsibility to call them again until your message has been
completely dealt with.

HTH


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Sun Dec 15 10:15:07 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:15:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-15, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:06 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2013-12-12, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>> Just to be pedantic: _TCP_ sockets reserve that right.  UDP sockets
>>>> do not, and do in fact guarantee that each message is discrete.  [It
>>>> appears that the OP is undoubtedly using TCP sockets.]
>>>
>>> I haven't done a lot of UDP, but are you pretty sure UDP can't at
>>> least fragment large packets?  What's a router or switch to do if the
>>> Path MTU isn't large enough for an original packet?
>>>
>>> http://www.gamedev.net/topic/343577-fragmented-udp-packets/
>>
>> You're conflating IP datagrams and Ethernet packets.  The IP stack can
>> fragment an IP datagram into multiple Ethernet packets which are then
>> reassembled by the receiving IP stack into a single datagram before
>> being passed up to the next layer (in this case, UDP).
>
> As long as you're saying this of UDP, I have no problem with it.

That is indeed what I'm saying.  I apoligize if that was not clear in
my original posting.

> I've seen TCP fragment and not be reassembled though, which suggests
> to me that the reassembly's happening in UDP rather than IP.

That's something different.  In TCP, there's no guarantee that
reads/writes correspond 1:1 to IP datagrams.  TCP is a _stream_
protocol and there is no semantic meaning attached to the boundaries
between successive read/write calls the way there is with UDP.

> If it's done by IP the same way for UDP and TCP,

The IP layer is supposed to reassemble receive datagrams for both --
but that's got nothing to do with atomicity of TCP writes/reads.  The
TCP stack can (and often does) turn one write() call into multiple IP
datagrams.  It can also turn multiple writes into a singel IP
datagram.  On the other end, it can split up a single datagram into
multiple read()s and/or combined multiple datagrams into a single
read().  TCP is a stream service, not a datagram service like UDP.

> I'd not trust it in UDP either.

The standards all require UDP datagrams to be preserved.  All of the
UDP applications I've ever written or seen depend utterly on that, and
it's always worked that way for me.  If you've seen it fail, then you
ought to file a bug report.

>> Did you read the thread you pointed to?  Your question was answerd by
>> posting #4 in the thread you cited:
>>
>>    1) Yes, packets will be fragmented at the network layer (IP), but
>>       this is something you do not have to worry about since the
>>       network layer will reassemble the fragments before passing them
>>       back up to the transport layer (UDP). UDP garentees preserved
>>       message boundaries, so you never have to worry about only
>>       receiving a packet fragment :~).
>
> Actually, I believe the link I sent (which I skimmed) had people
> coming down on both sides of the matter.  Some said that UDP would be
> fine for small datagrams, while others said it would be fine,
> irrespective of size.

The maximum size of an IP datagram is 64KB, so it's not "fine
irrespecive of size".  If your UDP implementation is working correctly
it will be fine below that limit.

>> A few other references:
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc791
>>
>>  1.1. Motivation
>>
>>   [...] The internet protocol provides for transmitting blocks of data
>>   called datagrams from sources to destinations, [...] The internet
>>   protocol also provides for fragmentation and reassembly of long
>>   datagrams, if necessary, for transmission through "small packet"
>>   networks.
>
> I've personally seen this fail to occur in TCP

You can't say that, because there's no correspondance between IP
datgrams and TCP read/write block sizes the way there is in UDP. 

With TCP there is nothing to fail (with respect to read/write block
sizes). TCP only guarantees that bytes will get there and get there in
the right order. It doesn't make any promises about block sizes.

> I've seen old time socket programmers explain that it cannot be relied
> upon in TCP; send() and recv() and (read() and write()) are system
> calls that return a length so that you can loop on them until all
> relevant data has been transferred.  They don't return that length
> just so you can ignore it.

That's true, but that's because of the design of the TCP _stream_
protocol, not because the IP datagram layer doesn't work right.
>
>>From the Socket HOWTO
>
> (http://docs.python.org/2/howto/sockets.html#socket-howto) : Now we
> come to the major stumbling block of sockets - send and recv operate
> on the network buffers. They do not necessarily handle all the bytes
> you hand them (or expect from them), because their major focus is
> handling the network buffers. In general, they return when the
> associated network buffers have been filled (send) or emptied (recv).
> They then tell you how many bytes they handled. It is your
> responsibility to call them again until your message has been
> completely dealt with.

If that's true for UDP, then the Python UDP implementation is broken,
and somebody should file a bug.  UDP is a a _datagram_ service.
Either all the bytes in a write() should get sent or none of them.
Sending a paritial datagram is _not_ a valid option.

-- 
Grant




From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 15 10:51:19 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 10:51:19 -0500
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>

In article <l8kh1r$bj8$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:

> UDP is a a _datagram_ service. Either all the bytes in a write() 
> should get sent or none of them. Sending a paritial datagram is _not_ 
> a valid option.

I would agree with the above if you said send() instead of write().  
Python socket objects don't have write() methods, file objects do.  You 
can wrap a file around a socket with socket.makefile(), but I'm not sure 
I would expect the UDP record boundary semantics to be honored once you 
did that.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 11:04:58 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 03:04:58 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrbHmHvboWS500MeNhOOFyjK09FynHu8U1zHC6=ZheCxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <l8kh1r$bj8$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> UDP is a a _datagram_ service. Either all the bytes in a write()
>> should get sent or none of them. Sending a paritial datagram is _not_
>> a valid option.
>
> I would agree with the above if you said send() instead of write().
> Python socket objects don't have write() methods, file objects do.  You
> can wrap a file around a socket with socket.makefile(), but I'm not sure
> I would expect the UDP record boundary semantics to be honored once you
> did that.

The underlying C API allows you, on Unix-like systems at least, to use
the standard write() function to send UDP packets (as long as you
first connect() - otherwise you need sendto() to specify a
destination). I don't usually use that method, but I would expect that
one call to write() becomes one UDP packet.

How that works with socket.makefile() in Python I have no idea.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 15 12:44:32 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:44:32 -0500
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4143.1387123508.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-FFCD70.12443215122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4143.1387123508.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <l8kh1r$bj8$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
> >  Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> UDP is a a _datagram_ service. Either all the bytes in a write()
> >> should get sent or none of them. Sending a paritial datagram is _not_
> >> a valid option.
> >
> > I would agree with the above if you said send() instead of write().
> > Python socket objects don't have write() methods, file objects do.  You
> > can wrap a file around a socket with socket.makefile(), but I'm not sure
> > I would expect the UDP record boundary semantics to be honored once you
> > did that.
> 
> The underlying C API allows you, on Unix-like systems at least, to use
> the standard write() function to send UDP packets (as long as you
> first connect() - otherwise you need sendto() to specify a
> destination). I don't usually use that method, but I would expect that
> one call to write() becomes one UDP packet.

At the Unix system call level, yes.  But, given that this is a Python 
newsgroup, I made the assumption we were talking about the Python API 
level.  Silly me :-)


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Sun Dec 15 17:42:39 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 22:42:39 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com> <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8lb8v$g6q$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-15, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <l8kh1r$bj8$1 at reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> UDP is a a _datagram_ service. Either all the bytes in a write() 
>> should get sent or none of them. Sending a paritial datagram is _not_ 
>> a valid option.
>
> I would agree with the above if you said send() instead of write().

Good point -- I meant send().  I keep forgetting that the libc socket
write() operation is missing in Python and only the send() call has
been made visible. In C write() and send() are effectively the same
thing (the parameters are arranged a little differently, but they
behave identically otherwise).

> Python socket objects don't have write() methods, file objects do.  You 
> can wrap a file around a socket with socket.makefile(), but I'm not sure 
> I would expect the UDP record boundary semantics to be honored once you 
> did that.

No, I wouldn't exect that.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I wish I was on a
                                  at               Cincinnati street corner
                              gmail.com            holding a clean dog!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 17:48:23 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:48:23 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <l8lb8v$g6q$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3939.1386804043.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8cggd$fl9$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4027.1386883640.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fbam$6q2$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4131.1387070671.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8kh1r$bj8$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <roy-A0D956.10511915122013@news.panix.com>
 <l8lb8v$g6q$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpEPt6xTA6xALj9jFHxyb_pnwJwJscwJAabGzKmDYFjhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Good point -- I meant send().  I keep forgetting that the libc socket
> write() operation is missing in Python and only the send() call has
> been made visible. In C write() and send() are effectively the same
> thing (the parameters are arranged a little differently, but they
> behave identically otherwise).

Mostly - send() lets you set options, write() is equivalent to send()
with no options set. But other than that, they're identical, as stated
in man 2 send.

ChrisA


From auriocus at gmx.de  Thu Dec 12 18:43:27 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 00:43:27 +0100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8dhmv$qk4$1@dont-email.me>

Am 12.12.13 00:08, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> allows me to enter e.g.
> *IDN?
> after which I get an identification string of the measurement instrument back.
> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module "socket"
> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:

> import socket
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> size = 10

The socket library advises to use a small power of two like 1024; 10 
seems very small.

> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> s.connect((host,port))
> s.send('*IDN?')
\n or \r\n is missing, you found this by yourself - look into the device 
manual, which one is correct

> data = s.recv(size)

It may be, that you simply need to wait for some time after the write, 
before you read. And then before the device is ready, you close the 
connection. If this is the case, try waiting a short time in between and 
use socket.sendall() instead of socket.send()

> s.close()

Maybe you need to read twice?

> Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?

The most proper way is to use asynchronous IO; never done this in python 
before, check this:

http://docs.python.org/2/library/asyncore.html#asyncore-example-basic-http-client

	Christian


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Fri Dec 13 10:35:31 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:35:31 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <680674143.1179116.1386948931236.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> allows me to enter e.g.
> *IDN?
> after which I get an identification string of the measurement
> instrument back.
> I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module
> "socket"
> and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> 
> """
> A simple echo client
> """
> import socket
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> size = 10
> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> s.connect((host,port))
> s.send('*IDN?')
> data = s.recv(size)
> s.close()
> print 'Received:', data
> 
> Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?
> thanks in advance
> jean

Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try using the telnetlib module ?
http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html

t = Telnet(host, port)
t.write('*IDN?')
print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
# you can use read_very_eager also

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 08:33:31 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:33:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>

Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 16:35:31 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> > measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> > e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> > allows me to enter e.g.
> > *IDN?
> > after which I get an identification string of the measurement
> > instrument back.
> > I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module
> > "socket"
> > and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > 
> > """
> > A simple echo client
> > """
> > import socket
> > host = '10.128.59.63'
> > port = 7000
> > size = 10
> > s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> > s.connect((host,port))
> > s.send('*IDN?')
> > data = s.recv(size)
> > s.close()
> > print 'Received:', data
> > 
> > Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?
> > thanks in advance
> > jean
> Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try using the telnetlib module ?
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html
> t = Telnet(host, port)
> t.write('*IDN?')
> print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> # you can use read_very_eager also
> JM
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll first wait for a response from Dan Stromberg concerning how to install his module, if he doesn't answer or if I'm still unsuccessfull then I'll try out your suggestion

kind regards,
jean


From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 20:03:14 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:03:14 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rQ5HNLH_0DYYpCoQ8G1Q201Lhgta2B8NbKjpvfaerT-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:33 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 16:35:31 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
>> > measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
>> > e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
>> > allows me to enter e.g.
>> > *IDN?
>> > after which I get an identification string of the measurement
>> > instrument back.
>> > I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module
>> > "socket"
>> > and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
>> > #!/usr/bin/env python
>> >
>> > """
>> > A simple echo client
>> > """
>> > import socket
>> > host = '10.128.59.63'
>> > port = 7000
>> > size = 10
>> > s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
>> > s.connect((host,port))
>> > s.send('*IDN?')
>> > data = s.recv(size)
>> > s.close()
>> > print 'Received:', data
>> >
>> > Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?
>> > thanks in advance
>> > jean
>> Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try using the telnetlib module ?
>> http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html
>> t = Telnet(host, port)
>> t.write('*IDN?')
>> print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
>> # you can use read_very_eager also
>> JM
> Thanks for the suggestion, I'll first wait for a response from Dan Stromberg concerning how to install his module, if he doesn't answer or if I'm still unsuccessfull then I'll try out your suggestion
>
> kind regards,
> jean
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

You can "svn checkout <url>".  You might try Sliksvn if you're on
Windows, or if you're on Linux it's in synaptic or yum or whatever.

You can "wget <url>".

You can bring up the URL in a web browser and cut and paste.


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 10:35:24 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 07:35:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4130.1387069401.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4130.1387069401.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a95c6412-c2d2-41fc-a963-bdd87b2b0987@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 15 december 2013 02:03:14 UTC+1 schreef Dan Stromberg:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:33 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Op vrijdag 13 december 2013 16:35:31 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > I have an ethernet-rs232 adapter which allows me to connect to a
> >> > measurement instrument by means of netcat on a linux system.
> >> > e.g. entering nc 10.128.59.63 7000
> >> > allows me to enter e.g.
> >> > *IDN?
> >> > after which I get an identification string of the measurement
> >> > instrument back.
> >> > I thought I could accomplish the same using the python module
> >> > "socket"
> >> > and tried out the sample program below which doesn't work however:
> >> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> >> >
> >> > """
> >> > A simple echo client
> >> > """
> >> > import socket
> >> > host = '10.128.59.63'
> >> > port = 7000
> >> > size = 10
> >> > s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> >> > s.connect((host,port))
> >> > s.send('*IDN?')
> >> > data = s.recv(size)
> >> > s.close()
> >> > print 'Received:', data
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone here tell me how to do it properly?
> >> > thanks in advance
> >> > jean
> >> Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try using the telnetlib module ?
> >> http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html
> >> t = Telnet(host, port)
> >> t.write('*IDN?')
> >> print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> >> # you can use read_very_eager also
> >> JM
> > Thanks for the suggestion, I'll first wait for a response from Dan Stromberg concerning how to install his module, if he doesn't answer or if I'm still unsuccessfull then I'll try out your suggestion
> >
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> You can "svn checkout <url>".  You might try Sliksvn if you're on
> Windows, or if you're on Linux it's in synaptic or yum or whatever.
> You can "wget <url>".
> You can bring up the URL in a web browser and cut and paste.
I'm using Linux, I did the following:
svn checkout http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/
which resulted in a directory 'bufsock' being added to my home-directory, 
Do I have to run further commands on the files in this directory?
How do I make Python aware of the existence of this new module?

thanks in advance
jean 



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 10:50:43 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:50:43 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <a95c6412-c2d2-41fc-a963-bdd87b2b0987@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4130.1387069401.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a95c6412-c2d2-41fc-a963-bdd87b2b0987@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqiGW-+d0_GkLdie6JBfoOV6PW5RZ2hnyQrEWwpjHFizA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:35 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm using Linux, I did the following:
> svn checkout http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/
> which resulted in a directory 'bufsock' being added to my home-directory,
> Do I have to run further commands on the files in this directory?
> How do I make Python aware of the existence of this new module?

Have a look in that directory. It seems to simply have a bufsock.py
which is the module to import.

That said, though, you may have to deal with dependencies. The source
code of bufsock.py references a python2x3 module (which Google tells
me is by the same author), so you may need to grab that, too.

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 16:14:07 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:14:07 -0800
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <a95c6412-c2d2-41fc-a963-bdd87b2b0987@googlegroups.com>
References: <efae1b3c-c9c5-4ef4-8e94-7fbe8716ab53@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4072.1386948939.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <180e238a-2110-41d9-a13f-df3355bd26c4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4130.1387069401.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a95c6412-c2d2-41fc-a963-bdd87b2b0987@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_p4CuEU8JWWk6SPCZu=aW26Lv8n9oiZZBnCUvTSVaxTbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:

>> You can "svn checkout <url>".  You might try Sliksvn if you're on
>> Windows, or if you're on Linux it's in synaptic or yum or whatever.
>> You can "wget <url>".
>> You can bring up the URL in a web browser and cut and paste.
> I'm using Linux, I did the following:
> svn checkout http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/svn/bufsock/
> which resulted in a directory 'bufsock' being added to my home-directory,
> Do I have to run further commands on the files in this directory?
> How do I make Python aware of the existence of this new module?

You can put the files (bufsock.py and python2x3.py) in your current
working directory - Python will import from your CWD.  I believe
python2x3.py should be checked out via an external reference since you
used svn.

You can put the files in your site-packages directory.

You can put the files in a directory like ~/lib, and then
sys.path.insert(0, os.path.expanduser('~/lib')) .

I probably should make it pip'able, but I don't think it's going to
happen today.


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 05:29:12 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:29:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <CAF=fzf-Q3g5TALXeN3Gkhc6baUXfG8GWyrLFveVOcX8iRn81-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1696195433.1350548.1387189752869.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> > Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try
> > using the telnetlib module ?
> > http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html
> >
> > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > t.write('*IDN?')
> > print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> > # you can use read_very_eager also
> >
> > JM
> >
> >
> Could you tell me how to install telnetlib on a linux-system (it's
> not
> available via apt-get install as I see it)
> 
> kind regards,
> jean
> 

Please keep it on list, some other may have the same install issue or someone could have better insights on installing telnetlib.

telnetlib is part of the standard modules in my Debian squeeze(python 2.5). Looking at the doc, it looks like it's available for python 3 as well. Strange that you don't have it.

Did you try

import telnetlib

?

Note that in the code above I forgot the EOF, which is very much dependent of the equipment itself.

You may have to write
t.write('*IDN?\n')
or
t.write('IDN?\n\r')

JM


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The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 05:42:07 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:42:07 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <1696195433.1350548.1387189752869.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>
Message-ID: <214819447.1352574.1387190527178.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> Did you try
> 
> import telnetlib
> 
> ?
> 
> Note that in the code above I forgot the EOF, which is very much
> dependent of the equipment itself.
> 
> You may have to write
> t.write('*IDN?\n')
> or
> t.write('IDN?\n\r')
> 
> JM


Additionally, here's the code we're using for our signal generators, just to give you a broad idea:

	def getError(self):
		error = self._extractRsp(self._sendCmd('SYST:ERR?', 10))
		if '"No error"' in error:
			return None
		else:
			return error

	def _sendCmd(self, aCmd, timeout):
		self.send(str(aCmd) + self.SEND_LFCR)

		waitPattern = [self.PROMPT]
		try:			
			index, _, rsp= self._telnet.expect(waitPattern, timeout)
		except  EOFError:
			self._logger.error('Connection unexpectedly closed while sending/reading/ data.')
			raise MxgError('Connection unexpectedly closed while sending the command "%s"' % aCmd)

		if index == -1:
			raise MxgError('Timeout occurred while sendind the command "%s"' % aCmd)

		return rs


	def _extractRsp(self, rawRsp):
		# the returned string should be something like '\r\n<response>\r\n<prompt>'
		# or '\r\n<prompt>'
		# tries to extract the response only, removing the additional carriage returns and prompt
		rawRsp = rawRsp.replace(self.READ_LFCR+self.PROMPT, '')
		if rawRsp.startswith(self.READ_LFCR):
			rawRsp = rawRsp[2:]
		return rawRs


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From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:44:31 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 03:44:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4197.1387189761.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAF=fzf-Q3g5TALXeN3Gkhc6baUXfG8GWyrLFveVOcX8iRn81-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4197.1387189761.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <aabaa0e5-7f13-47c8-b81c-6b9a9e3785de@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 16 december 2013 11:29:12 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > > Such equipment often implements a telnet protocol. Have use try
> > > using the telnetlib module ?
> > > http://docs.python.org/2/library/telnetlib.html
> > >
> > > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > > t.write('*IDN?')
> > > print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> > > # you can use read_very_eager also
> > >
> > > JM
> > >
> > >
> > Could you tell me how to install telnetlib on a linux-system (it's
> > not
> > available via apt-get install as I see it)
> > 
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> > 
> Please keep it on list, some other may have the same install issue or someone could have better insights on installing telnetlib.
> telnetlib is part of the standard modules in my Debian squeeze(python 2.5). Looking at the doc, it looks like it's available for python 3 as well. Strange that you don't have it.
> Did you try
> import telnetlib
> ?
> Note that in the code above I forgot the EOF, which is very much dependent of the equipment itself.
> You may have to write
> t.write('*IDN?\n')
> or
> t.write('IDN?\n\r')
> JM
Here is the code:
#!/usr/bin/env python
import telnetlib
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
t = Telnet(host, port)
t.write('*IDN?\n')
print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
# you can use read_very_eager also

and this is the result of executing the code(from which I deduce I have to
install telnetlib, but how?)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./nctelnet.py", line 5, in <module>
    t = Telnet(host, port)
NameError: name 'Telnet' is not defined

kind regards,
jean


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 07:05:41 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:05:41 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <aabaa0e5-7f13-47c8-b81c-6b9a9e3785de@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52786329.1364242.1387195541142.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> Here is the code:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> import telnetlib
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> t = Telnet(host, port)
> t.write('*IDN?\n')
> print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> # you can use read_very_eager also
> 
> and this is the result of executing the code(from which I deduce I
> have to
> install telnetlib, but how?)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./nctelnet.py", line 5, in <module>
>     t = Telnet(host, port)
> NameError: name 'Telnet' is not defined
> 
> kind regards,
> jean

t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)

JM


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The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 08:38:27 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 05:38:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4209.1387195543.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <aabaa0e5-7f13-47c8-b81c-6b9a9e3785de@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4209.1387195543.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <49171740-daca-40da-9073-4551956c8354@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 16 december 2013 13:05:41 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > Here is the code:
> > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > import telnetlib
> > host = '10.128.59.63'
> > port = 7000
> > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > t.write('*IDN?\n')
> > print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> > # you can use read_very_eager also
> > 
> > and this is the result of executing the code(from which I deduce I
> > have to
> > install telnetlib, but how?)
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> >   File "./nctelnet.py", line 5, in <module>
> >     t = Telnet(host, port)
> > NameError: name 'Telnet' is not defined
> > 
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
this helps, but I don't know what to do with 
"print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')"

should I send CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] after some time?

kind regards,
jean


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 09:16:17 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:16:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <49171740-daca-40da-9073-4551956c8354@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1885457066.1378587.1387203377348.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>



----- Original Message -----
> Op maandag 16 december 2013 13:05:41 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel
> Pichavant:
> > > Here is the code:
> > > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > > import telnetlib
> > > host = '10.128.59.63'
> > > port = 7000
> > > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > > t.write('*IDN?\n')
> > > print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> > > # you can use read_very_eager also
> > > 
> > > and this is the result of executing the code(from which I deduce
> > > I
> > > have to
> > > install telnetlib, but how?)
> > > Traceback (most recent call last):
> > >   File "./nctelnet.py", line 5, in <module>
> > >     t = Telnet(host, port)
> > > NameError: name 'Telnet' is not defined
> > > 
> > > kind regards,
> > > jean
> > t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
> this helps, but I don't know what to do with
> "print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')"
> 
> should I send CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] after some time?
> 
> kind regards,
> jean

one way to approach the problem is to first make some monkey tests.
1/ connect to your equipment using telnet (from the linux shell)
2/ try typing some commands like *IDN?
3/ see how the equipment is answering
4/ you need to identify what is the prompt, and what EndOfLine sequence is used.
5/ then in a python shell, try to reproduce the behavior:

  import telnetlib
  t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
  t.read_very_eager() #flush
  t.write('\n')
  prompt = t.read_very_eager() #this is one way to get the prompt
  print repr(prompt) #you may identify the EOL sequence with this one

When you get a good feeling about how it works, write the code.

JM


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The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 10:15:06 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:15:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4217.1387203379.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <49171740-daca-40da-9073-4551956c8354@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4217.1387203379.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <41954a05-c9bd-43f7-9427-915653ff8657@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 16 december 2013 15:16:17 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Op maandag 16 december 2013 13:05:41 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel
> > Pichavant:
> > > > Here is the code:
> > > > #!/usr/bin/env python
> > > > import telnetlib
> > > > host = '10.128.59.63'
> > > > port = 7000
> > > > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > > > t.write('*IDN?\n')
> > > > print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')
> > > > # you can use read_very_eager also
> > > > 
> > > > and this is the result of executing the code(from which I deduce
> > > > I
> > > > have to
> > > > install telnetlib, but how?)
> > > > Traceback (most recent call last):
> > > >   File "./nctelnet.py", line 5, in <module>
> > > >     t = Telnet(host, port)
> > > > NameError: name 'Telnet' is not defined
> > > > 
> > > > kind regards,
> > > > jean
> > > t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
> > this helps, but I don't know what to do with
> > "print t.read_until('Whateverprompt')"
> > 
> > should I send CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] after some time?
> > 
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> one way to approach the problem is to first make some monkey tests.
> 1/ connect to your equipment using telnet (from the linux shell)
> 2/ try typing some commands like *IDN?
> 3/ see how the equipment is answering
> 4/ you need to identify what is the prompt, and what EndOfLine sequence is used.
> 5/ then in a python shell, try to reproduce the behavior:
>   import telnetlib
>   t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
>   t.read_very_eager() #flush
>   t.write('\n')
>   prompt = t.read_very_eager() #this is one way to get the prompt
>   print repr(prompt) #you may identify the EOL sequence with this one
> When you get a good feeling about how it works, write the code.
Running you code I get as response:
''


This is what I got using telnet:
[jean:~] $ telnet 10.128.59.63 7000
Trying 10.128.59.63...
Connected to 10.128.59.63.
Escape character is '^]'.
*IDN?
KEITHLEY INSTRUMENTS INC.,MODEL 2425,1078209,C32   Oct  4 2010
14:20:11/A02  /E/                                                         
                                                                 H

after pressing CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] I get this:
^[^]
after which I get the telnet-prompt
>telnet
and I can quit telnet by entering quit


kind regards,
jean


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 11:44:31 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:44:31 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <41954a05-c9bd-43f7-9427-915653ff8657@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1581781421.1396105.1387212271487.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> This is what I got using telnet:
> [jean:~] $ telnet 10.128.59.63 7000
> Trying 10.128.59.63...
> Connected to 10.128.59.63.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> *IDN?
> KEITHLEY INSTRUMENTS INC.,MODEL 2425,1078209,C32   Oct  4 2010
> 14:20:11/A02  /E/
>                                                                  H
> 
> after pressing CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] I get this:
> ^[^]
> after which I get the telnet-prompt
> >telnet
> and I can quit telnet by entering quit
> 
> 
> kind regards,
> jean
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


Looks like you don't have any prompt.
Try something simple first:

import telnetlib
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
t = Telnet(host, port)

def flush()
  t.read_very_eager()

def sendCmd(cmd)
  t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
  return flush()

flush()
print sendCmd('*IDN?')
print sendCmd('*OPC?')


JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 13:26:14 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:26:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4222.1387212273.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <41954a05-c9bd-43f7-9427-915653ff8657@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4222.1387212273.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a71c4874-2fbc-439d-bc2a-483feb4f3080@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 16 december 2013 17:44:31 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > This is what I got using telnet:
> > [jean:~] $ telnet 10.128.59.63 7000
> > Trying 10.128.59.63...
> > Connected to 10.128.59.63.
> > Escape character is '^]'.
> > *IDN?
> > KEITHLEY INSTRUMENTS INC.,MODEL 2425,1078209,C32   Oct  4 2010
> > 14:20:11/A02  /E/
> >                                                                  H
> > 
> > after pressing CTRL-ALT-ALTGR-] I get this:
> > ^[^]
> > after which I get the telnet-prompt
> > >telnet
> > and I can quit telnet by entering quit
> > 
> > 
> > kind regards,
> > jean
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> Looks like you don't have any prompt.
> Try something simple first:
> import telnetlib
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> t = Telnet(host, port)
> def flush()
>   t.read_very_eager()
> def sendCmd(cmd)
>   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
>   return flush()
> flush()
> print sendCmd('*IDN?')
> print sendCmd('*OPC?')
Still no success:
jean at mantec:~$ ./test.py 
  File "./test.py", line 7
    def flush()
              ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax


Tried it both with python2 and python3, same error...

kind regards,
jean


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 13:35:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:35:57 +1100
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <a71c4874-2fbc-439d-bc2a-483feb4f3080@googlegroups.com>
References: <41954a05-c9bd-43f7-9427-915653ff8657@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4222.1387212273.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a71c4874-2fbc-439d-bc2a-483feb4f3080@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpH5NhhFpmzbpmAk-VV4r2zkiPBi6mKyDrM4fMd7T8eOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 5:26 AM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Try something simple first:
>> import telnetlib
>> host = '10.128.59.63'
>> port = 7000
>> t = Telnet(host, port)
>> def flush()
>>   t.read_very_eager()
>> def sendCmd(cmd)
>>   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
>>   return flush()
>> flush()
>> print sendCmd('*IDN?')
>> print sendCmd('*OPC?')
> Still no success:
> jean at mantec:~$ ./test.py
>   File "./test.py", line 7
>     def flush()
>               ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
>
>
> Tried it both with python2 and python3, same error...

Folks, the OP isn't an expert. Please test your scripts before posting!

I don't have everything I need to test this fully, but here's a
variant of the above that's at least syntactically correct:

from telnetlib import *
host = '10.128.59.63'
port = 7000
t = Telnet(host, port)
def flush():
  t.read_very_eager()
def sendCmd(cmd):
  t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
  return flush()
flush()
print sendCmd('*IDN?')
print sendCmd('*OPC?')

It's written for Python 2, so use that interpreter.

ChrisA


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 16 14:21:15 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:21:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpH5NhhFpmzbpmAk-VV4r2zkiPBi6mKyDrM4fMd7T8eOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33173844.1440668.1387221675279.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>



----- Original Message -----
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 5:26 AM, Jean Dubois
> <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Try something simple first:
> >> import telnetlib
> >> host = '10.128.59.63'
> >> port = 7000
> >> t = Telnet(host, port)
> >> def flush()
> >>   t.read_very_eager()
> >> def sendCmd(cmd)
> >>   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
> >>   return flush()
> >> flush()
> >> print sendCmd('*IDN?')
> >> print sendCmd('*OPC?')
> > Still no success:
> > jean at mantec:~$ ./test.py
> >   File "./test.py", line 7
> >     def flush()
> >               ^
> > SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> >
> >
> > Tried it both with python2 and python3, same error...
> 
> Folks, the OP isn't an expert. Please test your scripts before
> posting!
> 
> I don't have everything I need to test this fully, but here's a
> variant of the above that's at least syntactically correct:
> 
> from telnetlib import *
> host = '10.128.59.63'
> port = 7000
> t = Telnet(host, port)
> def flush():
>   t.read_very_eager()
> def sendCmd(cmd):
>   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
>   return flush()
> flush()
> print sendCmd('*IDN?')
> print sendCmd('*OPC?')
> 
> It's written for Python 2, so use that interpreter.
> 
> ChrisA

It was done on purpose, for educational purpose... :) 
My bad, however I should point that learning the very basic of a language by implementing a low level equipment remote protocol is rather ambitious.
By experience I know that you are annoyed by a crapload of nasty details without even caring about the python syntax, including:
  * LF/CR sequence
  * Inconsistent  answer pattern, depending on the equipment vendor
  * broken netcode that can block the remote server
  * timeouts
  * poor equipment feedback
I still wish Jean a great success :)


JM  


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 16:01:38 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:01:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4232.1387221677.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAPTjJmpH5NhhFpmzbpmAk-VV4r2zkiPBi6mKyDrM4fMd7T8eOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4232.1387221677.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b1f1a46a-78f1-4086-8f5c-2299b4186c30@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 16 december 2013 20:21:15 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 5:26 AM, Jean Dubois
> > <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Try something simple first:
> > >> import telnetlib
> > >> host = '10.128.59.63'
> > >> port = 7000
> > >> t = Telnet(host, port)
> > >> def flush()
> > >>   t.read_very_eager()
> > >> def sendCmd(cmd)
> > >>   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
> > >>   return flush()
> > >> flush()
> > >> print sendCmd('*IDN?')
> > >> print sendCmd('*OPC?')
> > > Still no success:
> > > jean at mantec:~$ ./test.py
> > >   File "./test.py", line 7
> > >     def flush()
> > >               ^
> > > SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> > >
> > >
> > > Tried it both with python2 and python3, same error...
> > 
> > Folks, the OP isn't an expert. Please test your scripts before
> > posting!
> > 
> > I don't have everything I need to test this fully, but here's a
> > variant of the above that's at least syntactically correct:
> > 
> > from telnetlib import *
> > host = '10.128.59.63'
> > port = 7000
> > t = Telnet(host, port)
> > def flush():
> >   t.read_very_eager()
> > def sendCmd(cmd):
> >   t.write('%s\n' % cmd)
> >   return flush()
> > flush()
> > print sendCmd('*IDN?')
> > print sendCmd('*OPC?')
> > 
> > It's written for Python 2, so use that interpreter.
> > 
> > ChrisA
> It was done on purpose, for educational purpose... :) 
> My bad, however I should point that learning the very basic of a language by implementing a low level equipment remote protocol is rather ambitious.
> By experience I know that you are annoyed by a crapload of nasty details without even caring about the python syntax, including:
>   * LF/CR sequence
>   * Inconsistent  answer pattern, depending on the equipment vendor
>   * broken netcode that can block the remote server
>   * timeouts
>   * poor equipment feedback
> I still wish Jean a great success :)
I'm a newbie in Python programming that is very much true, and contrary to what you seem to suggest I did my homework: I succeeded
already in writing a Python-script which communicates directly over rs232 with the same device which I now am trying to connect to via a rs232-ethernet adapter.
So I thought it would be simply a matter of communicating the same commands as I did before.
Here are some parts of my code:
serkeith = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0', 9600, 8, timeout=5, xonxoff=1)
serkeith.write("*RST" + "\n")
#turn off concurrent functions
serkeith.write(":SENS:FUNC:CONC OFF" + "\n")
#current source function
serkeith.write(":SOUR:FUNC CURR" + "\n")
#volt sense function
serkeith.write(":SENS:FUNC 'VOLT:DC'" + "\n")
#105V compliance
#serkeith.write(":SENS:VOLT:PROT 105" + "\n")
compliancestring=':SENS:VOLT:PROT '+str(compliancevalue) + '\n'
serkeith.write(compliancestring)
.
.
keithleymeasurement=serkeith.readline().split(',')

Also I got it working with nc and telnet, I just don't know how to accomplish this using python.
Tomorrow I'll look further at some a the more recent suggestions

kind regards,
jean


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Tue Dec 17 04:37:37 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:37:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <b1f1a46a-78f1-4086-8f5c-2299b4186c30@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1694420602.1489923.1387273057300.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

> I'm a newbie in Python programming that is very much true, and
> contrary to what you seem to suggest I did my homework

At no point that was my intention, my apologies.
If you fixed the syntax error, you should be pretty close to the solution though.

JM


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The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 08:04:08 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:04:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4271.1387273058.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <b1f1a46a-78f1-4086-8f5c-2299b4186c30@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4271.1387273058.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d246740c-e351-471f-a560-dd44d145b1d1@googlegroups.com>

Op dinsdag 17 december 2013 10:37:37 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > I'm a newbie in Python programming that is very much true, and
> > contrary to what you seem to suggest I did my homework
> At no point that was my intention, my apologies.
OK, no problem
> If you fixed the syntax error, you should be pretty close to the solution though.
thanks, I'll look further into it when I find a bit more time

kind regards,
jean


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 09:48:43 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 06:48:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <d246740c-e351-471f-a560-dd44d145b1d1@googlegroups.com>
References: <b1f1a46a-78f1-4086-8f5c-2299b4186c30@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4271.1387273058.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d246740c-e351-471f-a560-dd44d145b1d1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <af6ef461-836f-4794-b2c2-454fe2d7b6a3@googlegroups.com>

Op woensdag 18 december 2013 14:04:08 UTC+1 schreef Jean Dubois:
> Op dinsdag 17 december 2013 10:37:37 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > > I'm a newbie in Python programming that is very much true, and
> > > contrary to what you seem to suggest I did my homework
> > At no point that was my intention, my apologies.
> OK, no problem
> > If you fixed the syntax error, you should be pretty close to the solution though.
> thanks, I'll look further into it when I find a bit more time
I finally got it working:
#!/usr/bin/env python
import telnetlib
host = '10.128.56.202'
port = 6000
t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
t.read_very_eager() #flush
t.write('\n')
prompt = t.read_very_eager()
t.write('*IDN?\n')
print t.read_until('\n',5)

thanks to all here for the help offered

kind regards,
jean



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:36:18 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:36:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <af6ef461-836f-4794-b2c2-454fe2d7b6a3@googlegroups.com>
References: <b1f1a46a-78f1-4086-8f5c-2299b4186c30@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4271.1387273058.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d246740c-e351-471f-a560-dd44d145b1d1@googlegroups.com>
 <af6ef461-836f-4794-b2c2-454fe2d7b6a3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3f5b6bfc-4d6b-4d51-9ec2-24941156d5c8@googlegroups.com>

Op woensdag 18 december 2013 15:48:43 UTC+1 schreef Jean Dubois:
> Op woensdag 18 december 2013 14:04:08 UTC+1 schreef Jean Dubois:
> > Op dinsdag 17 december 2013 10:37:37 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> > > > I'm a newbie in Python programming that is very much true, and
> > > > contrary to what you seem to suggest I did my homework
> > > At no point that was my intention, my apologies.
> > OK, no problem
> > > If you fixed the syntax error, you should be pretty close to the solution though.
> > thanks, I'll look further into it when I find a bit more time
> I finally got it working:
> #!/usr/bin/env python
> import telnetlib
> host = '10.128.56.202'
> port = 6000
> t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
> t.read_very_eager() #flush
> t.write('\n')
> prompt = t.read_very_eager()
> t.write('*IDN?\n')
> print t.read_until('\n',5)
>
I erased the two superfluous lines in the code above, so the code now is this:
#!/usr/bin/env python
import telnetlib
host = '10.128.56.202'
port = 6000
t = telnetlib.Telnet(host, port)
t.read_very_eager() #flush
t.write('*IDN?\n')
readstring=t.read_until('\n',5)

jean


From davea at davea.name  Mon Dec 16 13:42:49 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:42:49 -0500
Subject: [newbie] trying socket as a replacement for nc
In-Reply-To: <a71c4874-2fbc-439d-bc2a-483feb4f3080@googlegroups.com>
References: <41954a05-c9bd-43f7-9427-915653ff8657@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4222.1387212273.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a71c4874-2fbc-439d-bc2a-483feb4f3080@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.5057977378489987096@news.gmane.org>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:26:14 -0800 (PST), Jean Dubois 
<jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:


>   File "./test.py", line 7
>     def flush()
>               ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax

A definition line needs to end with a colon (fix the other as well)

-- 
DaveA



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 18:54:22 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 11 Dec 2013 23:54:22 GMT
Subject: Optimizing list processing
Message-ID: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least 
one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom. The algorithm 
looks something like this (simplified):

table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])
table = [i for x,i in table]

The problem here is that for large iterables, say 10 million items or so, 
this is *painfully* slow, as my system has to page memory like mad to fit 
two large lists into memory at once. So I came up with an in-place 
version that saves (approximately) two-thirds of the memory needed.

table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
table.sort()
for x, i in table:
    table[i] = x

For giant iterables (ten million items), this version is a big 
improvement, about three times faster than the list comp version. Since 
we're talking about the difference between 4 seconds and 12 seconds (plus 
an additional 40-80 seconds of general slow-down as the computer pages 
memory into and out of virtual memory), this is a good, solid 
optimization.

Except that for more reasonably sized iterables, it's a pessimization. 
With one million items, the ratio is the other way around: the list comp 
version is 2-3 times faster than the in-place version. For smaller lists, 
the ratio varies, but the list comp version is typically around twice as 
fast. A good example of trading memory for time.

So, ideally I'd like to write my code like this:


table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
table.sort()
if len(table) < ?????:
    table = [i for x,i in table]
else:
    for x, i in table:
        table[i] = x

where ????? no doubt will depend on how much memory is available in one 
contiguous chunk.

Is there any way to determine which branch I should run, apart from hard-
coding some arbitrary and constant cut-off value?



-- 
Steven


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Dec 11 19:59:42 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:59:42 +0000
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52A90A7E.3040802@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 11/12/2013 23:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least
> one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom. The algorithm
> looks something like this (simplified):
>
> table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])
> table = [i for x,i in table]
>
> The problem here is that for large iterables, say 10 million items or so,
> this is *painfully* slow, as my system has to page memory like mad to fit
> two large lists into memory at once. So I came up with an in-place
> version that saves (approximately) two-thirds of the memory needed.
>
> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sort()

This looks wrong to me:

> for x, i in table:
>      table[i] = x

Couldn't it replace an item it'll need later on?

Let me see if I can find an example where it would fail.

Start with:

 >>> table = [('b', 0), ('a', 1)]

Sort it and you get:

 >>> table.sort()
 >>> table
[('a', 1), ('b', 0)]

Run that code:

 >>> for x, i in table:
	table[i] = x

	
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<pyshell#18>", line 1, in <module>
     for x, i in table:
ValueError: need more than 1 value to unpack

Why did it fail?

 >>> table
[('a', 1), 'a']

The 2 methods give different results anyway: the first returns a list
of indexes, and the second returns a list of items from the iterable.

[snip]



From buzzard at invalid.invalid  Wed Dec 11 20:02:21 2013
From: buzzard at invalid.invalid (duncan smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:02:21 +0000
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52a90b21$0$47892$862e30e2@ngroups.net>

On 11/12/13 23:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least
> one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom. The algorithm
> looks something like this (simplified):
>
> table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])
> table = [i for x,i in table]
>
> The problem here is that for large iterables, say 10 million items or so,
> this is *painfully* slow, as my system has to page memory like mad to fit
> two large lists into memory at once. So I came up with an in-place
> version that saves (approximately) two-thirds of the memory needed.
>
> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sort()
> for x, i in table:
>      table[i] = x
>
> For giant iterables (ten million items), this version is a big
> improvement, about three times faster than the list comp version. Since
> we're talking about the difference between 4 seconds and 12 seconds (plus
> an additional 40-80 seconds of general slow-down as the computer pages
> memory into and out of virtual memory), this is a good, solid
> optimization.
>
> Except that for more reasonably sized iterables, it's a pessimization.
> With one million items, the ratio is the other way around: the list comp
> version is 2-3 times faster than the in-place version. For smaller lists,
> the ratio varies, but the list comp version is typically around twice as
> fast. A good example of trading memory for time.
>
> So, ideally I'd like to write my code like this:
>
>
> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sort()
> if len(table) < ?????:
>      table = [i for x,i in table]
> else:
>      for x, i in table:
>          table[i] = x
>
> where ????? no doubt will depend on how much memory is available in one
> contiguous chunk.
>
> Is there any way to determine which branch I should run, apart from hard-
> coding some arbitrary and constant cut-off value?
>

I had a slightly similar problem a while ago. I actually wanted to 
process data from a large file in sorted order. In the end I read chunks 
of data from the file, sorted them, then wrote each chunk of data to a 
temporary file. Then I used heapq.merge to merge the data in the 
temporary files. It vastly reduced memory consumption, and was 'quick 
enough'. It was based on Guido's solution for sorting a million 32-bit 
integers in 2MB of RAM 
(http://neopythonic.blogspot.co.uk/2008/10/sorting-million-32-bit-integers-in-2mb.html). 
Cheers.

Duncan



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Wed Dec 11 20:18:30 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:18:30 +1100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <7wfvpylvdl.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:

> For giant iterables (ten million items), this version is a big 
> improvement, about three times faster than the list comp version. [?]
>
> Except that for more reasonably sized iterables, it's a pessimization.
> With one million items, the ratio is the other way around: the list
> comp version is 2-3 times faster than the in-place version. For
> smaller lists, the ratio varies, but the list comp version is
> typically around twice as fast. A good example of trading memory for
> time.

> Is there any way to determine which branch I should run, apart from
> hard- coding some arbitrary and constant cut-off value?

Hmm. The code isn't going to be able to accurately judge in advance the
time it'll take to run. But perhaps it could quickly and accurately
calculate the memory usage of your data structure? Is that useful for
determining which branch to take?

-- 
 \      ?The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more |
  `\   to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a |
_o__)                                 sober one.? ?George Bernard Shaw |
Ben Finney



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 11 20:43:31 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 01:43:31 GMT
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3942.1386809980.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a914c3$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:59:42 +0000, MRAB wrote:

>> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)] 
>> table.sort()
> 
> This looks wrong to me:
> 
>> for x, i in table:
>>      table[i] = x

Yes, you're right, I over-simplified the example, and in doing so 
introduced a bug. What I actually use is:

for i, x in enumerate(table):
    table[i] = x[1]

modulo any further bugs introduced while copying and pasting :-)


-- 
Steven


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Dec 11 21:09:42 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 02:09:42 +0000
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a914c3$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3942.1386809980.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a914c3$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52A91AE6.3020400@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 01:43, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:59:42 +0000, MRAB wrote:
>
>>> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
>>> table.sort()
>>
>> This looks wrong to me:
>>
>>> for x, i in table:
>>>      table[i] = x
>
> Yes, you're right, I over-simplified the example, and in doing so
> introduced a bug. What I actually use is:
>
> for i, x in enumerate(table):
>      table[i] = x[1]
>
> modulo any further bugs introduced while copying and pasting :-)
>
How does this compare:

table = list(iterable)
indexes = list(range(len(table)))
indexes.sort(key=table.__getitem__)



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec 11 21:26:51 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:26:51 -0500
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8b6t2$7eu$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least
> one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom.

It is a non-standard version thereof, as DSU usually means to decorate 
with a key that gets discarded.

A couple of examples of input and expected output would have been good ;-).

> The algorithm looks something like this (simplified):
>
> table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])

This makes two temporaries when only one is needed, and shows why we 
added generator expressions.

table = sorted((x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable))
is equivalent to the table; table.sort lines below.

The following (untested) should be faster as it avoids tuple unpacking 
and repacking.

from itertools import count
table = sorted(t for t in zip(iterable, count))

 > table = [i for x,i in table]

Did your original un-simplified use zip instead enumerate? Table now has 
the original index of the items in iterable sorted by the items value. 
The use for this is not obvious.

> The problem here is that for large iterables, say 10 million items or so,
> this is *painfully* slow, as my system has to page memory like mad to fit
> two large lists into memory at once. So I came up with an in-place
> version that saves (approximately) two-thirds of the memory needed.

With 1/3 saved by using a genex, it saves 1/2 of the remainder.

> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sorted()

(You meant table.sort().)  This is an expansion of sorted(genex). It 
might be slightly faster as list comp may be faster than list(equivalent 
genex).

> for x, i in table:
>      table[i] = x

I cannot understand what you are aiming for here. Besides the fact that 
this does not work, it keeps x values rather than i indexes as before.

 > table = [i for x,i in table]

done in place is

for j, (x,i) in enumerate(table):
   table[j] = i

I expect the list comp be faster than in-place as long as the result 
list can be allocated and held in memory without paging. (This of course 
depends on system memory and other memory uses.)  List iterators have a 
__length_hint__ method giving the length of the underlying list, so the 
list comp result list can potentially be allocated once and then filled 
in by enumeration and replacement, but in C rather than Python code.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From stefan_ml at behnel.de  Thu Dec 12 06:09:36 2013
From: stefan_ml at behnel.de (Stefan Behnel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:09:36 +0100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <l8b6t2$7eu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8b6t2$7eu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8c5h5$o3b$1@ger.gmane.org>

Terry Reedy, 12.12.2013 03:26:
> from itertools import count
> table = sorted(t for t in zip(iterable, count))

This is a useless use of a generator expression. sorted(zip(...)) is enough
(and likely to be substantially faster also).

Stefan




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 12 13:07:49 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:07:49 -0500
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <l8c5h5$o3b$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8b6t2$7eu$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8c5h5$o3b$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8cu1c$7lo$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 6:09 AM, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Terry Reedy, 12.12.2013 03:26:
>> from itertools import count
>> table = sorted(t for t in zip(iterable, count))
>
> This is a useless use of a generator expression. sorted(zip(...)) is enough
> (and likely to be substantially faster also).

Yes, definitely, and thank you. I did not squeeze enough.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 07:08:58 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 12:08:58 GMT
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:26:51 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 12/11/2013 6:54 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least
>> one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom.
> 
> It is a non-standard version thereof, as DSU usually means to decorate
> with a key that gets discarded.

I do decorate with a key that gets discarded. The actual values that are 
being sorted are the enumerated values 0, 1, 2, ... and the temporary key 
values come from the iterable.

Confused yet? :-)


> A couple of examples of input and expected output would have been good
> ;-).

Only if I wanted you to understand the algorithm, which isn't really 
important. My question is about swapping between in-place modifications 
and external copying. If I wanted to be really mysterious (annoying), I 
could have just give pseudo-code :-)

Please don't focus on the algorithm I gave. Focus on the fact that I 
could write it like this:

if some condition to do with the computer's available memory:
     make modifications in place
else:
     make a copy of the data containing the modifications


if only I knew what that condition was and how to test for it.


>> The algorithm looks something like this (simplified):
>>
>> table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])
> 
> This makes two temporaries when only one is needed, and shows why we
> added generator expressions.

You may be right in this particular case, I don't know I haven't tried 
it, but there are cases where list comps are significantly faster than 
generator expressions. For example, when passed to str.join, list comps 
are (on my computer) consistently 15% faster:

[steve at ando ~]$ python3.3 -m timeit "''.join([chr(n) for n in range(1, 
201)])"
10000 loops, best of 3: 100 usec per loop
[steve at ando ~]$ python3.3 -m timeit "''.join([chr(n) for n in range(1, 
201)])"
10000 loops, best of 3: 94.1 usec per loop
[steve at ando ~]$ python3.3 -m timeit "''.join(chr(n) for n in range(1, 
201))"
10000 loops, best of 3: 116 usec per loop
[steve at ando ~]$ python3.3 -m timeit "''.join(chr(n) for n in range(1, 
201))"
10000 loops, best of 3: 109 usec per loop



> table = sorted((x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)) is equivalent to
> the table; table.sort lines below.
> 
> The following (untested) should be faster as it avoids tuple unpacking
> and repacking.


I'm not terribly fussed about micro-optimizations here. I'm concerned 
about *macro-optimizing* the case where creating two (or more) lists 
forces the computer to page memory in and out of virtual memory. Saving a 
few milliseconds? I don't care. Saving 5 or 6 seconds? That I care about.

[...]
> I expect the list comp be faster than in-place as long as the result
> list can be allocated and held in memory without paging. (This of course
> depends on system memory and other memory uses.)  

Exactly!


> List iterators have a
> __length_hint__ method giving the length of the underlying list, so the
> list comp result list can potentially be allocated once and then filled
> in by enumeration and replacement, but in C rather than Python code.

I don't want to pre-allocate the list comp. I want to avoid having to 
have two LARGE lists in memory at the same time, one containing the 
decorated values, and one not. I know that this is a good optimization 
for large enough lists. On my computer, ten million items is sufficient 
to demonstrate the optimization, and with sufficient testing I could 
determine a rough cut-off value, below which list comps are more 
efficient and above which in-place modifications are better.

But I don't know how to generalize that cut-off value. If I buy extra 
RAM, the cut-off value will shift. If I run it on another computer, it 
will shift.



P.S. The algorithm I'm working on is a way of generating index and rank 
tables. Not that it really matters -- what matters is determining whether 
or not to shift from "make a copy of the list" to "modify the list in 
place".


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 07:25:37 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 23:25:37 +1100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqQu57xErByF6f6PtsCmq66c2M=xUQBbXZpS3A=exHcsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> P.S. The algorithm I'm working on is a way of generating index and rank
> tables. Not that it really matters -- what matters is determining whether
> or not to shift from "make a copy of the list" to "modify the list in
> place".

So you're currently looking at...

if len(table) < ?????:
    table = [i for x,i in table]
else:
    for x, i in table:
        table[i] = x


Can I throw a spanner [1] in the works with other suggestions to try timing?

table[:] = [i for x,i in table]  # Does slice assignment get optimized?

SPLIT = 1048576  # Pick some useful cutoff
for part in range(0,len(table),SPLIT):
    table[part:part+SPLIT] = [i for x,i in table[part:part+SPLIT]]

If slice assignment is reasonably fast (which I suspect it is), the
one-liner should be practically identical to your small-table
one-liner. Then if the million-record splits can be done inside
memory, it ought to be possible to do this in comparable time, even if
the total table length is huge. The choice of SPLIT would then matter
a lot less than the cutoff that you're trying to find; you might have
been able to do it in half the number of sections, but that won't make
as big a difference as suddenly paging out. Ideally, what I'd like to
see is that a higher SPLIT improves performance slightly until it gets
too high, at which point you go bust and the dealer wins... but the
critical word there is "slightly", meaning that it wouldn't cost too
much for SPLIT to be lower than it needs to be. That's the criteria
for the experiment; do you have the data on which to try it?

[1] Monkey wrench, for the Yanks in the room

ChrisA


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 12 08:32:11 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:32:11 +0000
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqQu57xErByF6f6PtsCmq66c2M=xUQBbXZpS3A=exHcsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmqQu57xErByF6f6PtsCmq66c2M=xUQBbXZpS3A=exHcsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52A9BADB.7030701@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 12:25, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:08 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> P.S. The algorithm I'm working on is a way of generating index and rank
>> tables. Not that it really matters -- what matters is determining whether
>> or not to shift from "make a copy of the list" to "modify the list in
>> place".
>
> So you're currently looking at...
>
> if len(table) < ?????:
>      table = [i for x,i in table]
> else:
>      for x, i in table:
>          table[i] = x
>
>
> Can I throw a spanner [1] in the works with other suggestions to try timing?
>
> table[:] = [i for x,i in table]  # Does slice assignment get optimized?
>
[snip]

If you're trying that, you could also try:

table[:] = (i for x,i in table)



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:06:33 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:06:33 +1100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52A9BADB.7030701@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CAPTjJmqQu57xErByF6f6PtsCmq66c2M=xUQBbXZpS3A=exHcsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52A9BADB.7030701@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp5WjvLU_qEpm_9=KmiW-7PH9i0FZLZdQdN9ttRRtW5bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:32 AM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> table[:] = [i for x,i in table]  # Does slice assignment get optimized?
>>
> [snip]
>
> If you're trying that, you could also try:
>
> table[:] = (i for x,i in table)

Right, a tweak which could be applied also to the split version. Thanks MRAB.

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 12 13:40:36 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:40:36 -0500
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8cvus$vgg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 7:08 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Please don't focus on the algorithm I gave. Focus on the fact that I
> could write it like this:
>
> if some condition to do with the computer's available memory:
>       make modifications in place
> else:
>       make a copy of the data containing the modifications
>
> if only I knew what that condition was and how to test for it.

In other words, you want a magic formula that depends on just about 
everything: the (static) memory in the machine, the other programs 
running, the memory otherwise used by the current program, the number 
items, the nature of the items, and possibly the memory fragmentation state.

> You may be right in this particular case, I don't know I haven't tried
> it, but there are cases where list comps are significantly faster than
> generator expressions.

Stefan noted that neither is needed if zip produces the items wanted.

> I'm not terribly fussed about micro-optimizations here. I'm concerned
> about *macro-optimizing* the case where creating two (or more) lists
> forces the computer to page memory in and out of virtual memory. Saving a
> few milliseconds? I don't care. Saving 5 or 6 seconds? That I care about.

Why would you spend an hour or more of your time to save 5 seconds? 
Theoretical interest or a practical problem with enough runs to turns 
seconds into hours or days? A non-trivial practical answer will require 
more info about the practical context, including the distribution of 
machine memory sizes and of problem sizes.

> I don't want to pre-allocate the list comp. I want to avoid having to
> have two LARGE lists in memory at the same time, one containing the
> decorated values, and one not. I know that this is a good optimization
> for large enough lists. On my computer, ten million items is sufficient
> to demonstrate the optimization, and with sufficient testing I could
> determine a rough cut-off value, below which list comps are more
> efficient and above which in-place modifications are better.
>
> But I don't know how to generalize that cut-off value. If I buy extra
> RAM, the cut-off value will shift. If I run it on another computer, it
> will shift.

The simplest answer is to always avoid catastrophe by always modifying 
the one list. For 'short' lists, the time difference will be relatively 
small.

If the fraction of short lists is large enough to make the cumulative 
time difference large enough, and the list object sizes are more or less 
constant or at least bounded, a possible answer is to pick a minimum 
memory size, get a machine with that size, and work out a list size 
small enough to avoid thrashing.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 19:14:02 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Dec 2013 00:14:02 GMT
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4010.1386873654.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52aa5149$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:40:36 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 12/12/2013 7:08 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> Please don't focus on the algorithm I gave. Focus on the fact that I
>> could write it like this:
>>
>> if some condition to do with the computer's available memory:
>>       make modifications in place
>> else:
>>       make a copy of the data containing the modifications
>>
>> if only I knew what that condition was and how to test for it.
> 
> In other words, you want a magic formula that depends on just about
> everything: the (static) memory in the machine, the other programs
> running, the memory otherwise used by the current program, the number
> items, the nature of the items, and possibly the memory fragmentation
> state.

Yes. Surely there's a way to check whether allocating a list of N items 
will succeed without paging, without actually having to allocate a list 
of N items?

Back in the 1980s, when I was a Mac user and occasional programmer, there 
were memory manager routines which (if I recall correctly) would tell you 
whether or not an allocation would succeed or not. Macs of that vintage 
didn't have virtual memory, it is true, but the principle remains sound: 
"is there a single contiguous block of N bytes available? if so, use a 
list comprehension, if not, switch to an in-place algorithm". Until 
Python, I had never used a programming language that didn't give you at 
least a rough-and-ready way to determine how much memory was available so 
you could make an informed guess as to whether an expensive operation 
would succeed before actually attempting it.

I will be very disappointed (but hardly surprised) to learn that 
functionality which was standard in 1984 computers is not possible in 
2013.

But I don't *specifically* care about measuring memory size, only as a 
proxy for whether or not I should switch algorithms. That's why this post 
is called "Optimizing list processing" rather than "Finding out how much 
memory is available". If there's another way to solve the same problem, 
I'm happy to hear it.


[...]
>> I'm not terribly fussed about micro-optimizations here. I'm concerned
>> about *macro-optimizing* the case where creating two (or more) lists
>> forces the computer to page memory in and out of virtual memory. Saving
>> a few milliseconds? I don't care. Saving 5 or 6 seconds? That I care
>> about.
> 
> Why would you spend an hour or more of your time to save 5 seconds?

For a number of reasons:

- Trading off increased memory use for faster code is a good optimization 
technique so long as it actually does result in faster code. I measured, 
and discovered that there comes a point where it results in serious 
performance degradation. Not just a little bit slower by 5% or 10%, but 
nearly 300% slower. We're told not to optimize until we've measured. Well 
I've measured. Swapping algorithms to in-place for large enough lists is 
a BIG time saver.

- It's not just the five seconds that I save, but the 30 or 50 seconds of 
general slowdown of *everything* on the computer as it frantically pages 
blocks of memory. And not just on *this* computer, if I'm running the 
code on a server it will effect all the other machines relying on that 
server. That five seconds of time for a single process may affect all the 
users of that machine for a minute or two before the system settles down 
to normal performance again.

Paging is *deadly* for performance -- moving memory around is typically 
O(N**2), and hard drive speeds are typically millions of times slower 
than RAM speeds. Here is a graphical view of the latency of various media:

http://i.imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif


[...]
> The simplest answer is to always avoid catastrophe by always modifying
> the one list. For 'short' lists, the time difference will be relatively
> small.

It seems perverse to avoid writing idiomatic, and usually faster, Python 
code just because occasionally it performs badly. What you describe is a 
last resort.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 20:01:40 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:01:40 +1100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52aa5149$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3953.1386815228.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52a9a75a$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4010.1386873654.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52aa5149$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpmUkaY5TgHnsLDFTcwEgQSke=iOxX6BOJMx2kv06M9Mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Back in the 1980s, when I was a Mac user and occasional programmer, there
> were memory manager routines which (if I recall correctly) would tell you
> whether or not an allocation would succeed or not. Macs of that vintage
> didn't have virtual memory, it is true, but the principle remains sound:
> "is there a single contiguous block of N bytes available? if so, use a
> list comprehension, if not, switch to an in-place algorithm". Until
> Python, I had never used a programming language that didn't give you at
> least a rough-and-ready way to determine how much memory was available so
> you could make an informed guess as to whether an expensive operation
> would succeed before actually attempting it.
>
> I will be very disappointed (but hardly surprised) to learn that
> functionality which was standard in 1984 computers is not possible in
> 2013.

The situation is a bit different. Virtualization of memory makes it a
lot harder to figure out what can/can't be allocated without paging.
As long as you're okay with it being really rough, you could probably
get some info from the system. On my Linux box, /proc/meminfo tells
me:

MemTotal:       16452036 kB
MemFree:         1689636 kB
Buffers:          251240 kB
Cached:          6228724 kB

That suggests I can allocate 1.5GB + .25GB + 6.25GB = 8GB, roughly,
before hitting the swapper. (Buffers and Cached represent memory that
will be reclaimed to satisfy other requests, but is being used - most
of it caching stuff off the primary filesystem.) In very VERY round
figures, that would be how much it ought to be safe to allocate. Now,
how that compares with your list requirements is a separate question.
I've no idea how many list elements would fit in that 8GB, but it
probably won't be a billion (which would be the theoretical, one
64-bit pointer per element).

This might tie in nicely with the theory I suggested about splitting
the job. You could pick a SPLIT by figuring how much memory is free,
dividing that by your pointer size or other estimate of usage, halving
it because you need two lists, and then halving again for safety.

On this same 64-bit system, sys.getsizeof(list(range(N))) for various
values of N seems to suggest that it approaches 9*N. So by the
guesstimate above, I come up with a plausible SPLIT of 226933 ==
(1689636+251240+6228724)//9//2//2, not forgetting that this is scaled
by one SI unit (so 226 million elements would be safe). Alas, that's
not true, because I just tried that, and he hit the swapper... even
though sys.getsizeof() returned the expected N*9+112 figure.

Which is because I'm an idiot. Of course. The reason it's more is
because I'm creating all those integers too... actually, I'm quite
impressed with that, that's costing almost nothing more.

>>> sys.getsizeof(list(range(100000000)))
900000112
>>> sys.getsizeof([None]*100000000)
800000064

Not quite sure what's going on there. I know those integers are taking
up more than 1 byte of storage. Guess getsizeof() isn't the best way
to calculate. Anyway, a bit of experimentation should tell you how
much you can do safely, and as long as there's a good margin of error,
this would be an extremely rough guide.

Now, getting that info in a cross-platform way... that's the problem!

ChrisA


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 12 10:08:33 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:08:33 +0100
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8cjgi$3ev$1@ger.gmane.org>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> I have some code which produces a list from an iterable using at least
> one temporary list, using a Decorate-Sort-Undecorate idiom. The algorithm
> looks something like this (simplified):
> 
> table = sorted([(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)])
> table = [i for x,i in table]
> 
> The problem here is that for large iterables, say 10 million items or so,
> this is *painfully* slow, as my system has to page memory like mad to fit
> two large lists into memory at once. So I came up with an in-place
> version that saves (approximately) two-thirds of the memory needed.
> 
> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sort()
> for x, i in table:
>     table[i] = x
> 
> For giant iterables (ten million items), this version is a big
> improvement, about three times faster than the list comp version. Since
> we're talking about the difference between 4 seconds and 12 seconds (plus
> an additional 40-80 seconds of general slow-down as the computer pages
> memory into and out of virtual memory), this is a good, solid
> optimization.
> 
> Except that for more reasonably sized iterables, it's a pessimization.
> With one million items, the ratio is the other way around: the list comp
> version is 2-3 times faster than the in-place version. For smaller lists,
> the ratio varies, but the list comp version is typically around twice as
> fast. A good example of trading memory for time.
> 
> So, ideally I'd like to write my code like this:
> 
> 
> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)]
> table.sort()
> if len(table) < ?????:
>     table = [i for x,i in table]
> else:
>     for x, i in table:
>         table[i] = x
> 
> where ????? no doubt will depend on how much memory is available in one
> contiguous chunk.
> 
> Is there any way to determine which branch I should run, apart from hard-
> coding some arbitrary and constant cut-off value?

How about using two lists?

keys = list(iterable)
values = range(len(keys))
values.sort(key=keys.__getitem__)
del keys

The intention is to save memory used for the 2-tuples; I don't know if they 
pop up elsewhere.



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 22:01:37 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Dec 2013 03:01:37 GMT
Subject: Optimizing list processing
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3999.1386860910.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52aa7890$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:08:33 +0100, Peter Otten wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
[...]
>> So, ideally I'd like to write my code like this:
>> 
>> 
>> table = [(x, i) for i,x in enumerate(iterable)] table.sort()
>> if len(table) < ?????:
>>     table = [i for x,i in table]
>> else:
>>     for x, i in table:
>>         table[i] = x
>> 
>> where ????? no doubt will depend on how much memory is available in one
>> contiguous chunk.
>> 
>> Is there any way to determine which branch I should run, apart from
>> hard- coding some arbitrary and constant cut-off value?
> 
> How about using two lists?
> 
> keys = list(iterable)
> values = range(len(keys))
> values.sort(key=keys.__getitem__)
> del keys
> 
> The intention is to save memory used for the 2-tuples; I don't know if
> they pop up elsewhere.

They don't. On the other hand, you've now got two lists where before I 
only had one.

In my post, I said that the code I showed was a simplification. What I 
actually have is two branches. If the given iterable is a sequence type 
(say, a list) I use something quite similar to your code above:

    if isinstance(iterable, collections.Sequence):
        getitem = iterable.__getitem__
        if key is not None:
            # Compose the given key with getitem.
            f = lambda i: key(getitem(i))
        else:
            f = getitem
        table = range(len(iterable))  # Python 2.x version
        table.sort(key=f, reverse=reverse)


which avoids any temporary two-tuples, and creates only the one 
additional list. I can't avoid making that list, since it's the result 
required. I don't think that this branch of the code can be optimized in 
any serious way, I can't see any additional fat to be trimmed off that. 
If the input list is so large as to cause thrashing, the only solution is 
to buy more memory.

The other branch handles iterators, and I have two versions. The 
idiomatic version is faster for small data sets (small in this case 
meaning "up to at least one million items on my computer") but ends up 
building at least one extra temporary list which is thrown away:

    else:
        table = [(x, i) for (i, x) in enumerate(iterable)]
        table.sort(key=key, reverse=reverse)
        table = [i for x, i in table]

I've experimented with slight variations, e.g. using sorted() and a 
generator expression instead of a list comp, and the differences are 
trivial. The important thing here is that there's a temporary list which 
in some cases is *very large* but destined to be thrown away. Having two 
very large lists (for large enough input sizes) causes thrashing. 

To avoid that thrashing, I have a second version which builds only one 
list and then modifies it in place. For very large input sizes (ten 
million items) this is significantly faster:

    else:
        table = [(x, i) for (i, x) in enumerate(iterable)]
        table.sort(key=key, reverse=reverse)
        for x, i in enumerate(table):
            table[i] = x

but much slower, and less idiomatic, for small input sizes.

I don't know of any reasonable way to tell at runtime which of the two 
algorithms I ought to take. Hard-coding an arbitrary value 
("if len(table) > 5000000") is not the worst idea I've ever had, but I'm 
hoping for something more deterministic which can be cheaply calculated 
at runtime.



-- 
Steven


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 00:35:59 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:35:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Optimizing list processing
In-Reply-To: <52aa7890$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52a8fb2d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3999.1386860910.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52aa7890$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <3a844cdb-218a-43e2-a1ad-7a7186dea282@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 8:31:37 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> I don't know of any reasonable way to tell at runtime which of the two 
> algorithms I ought to take. Hard-coding an arbitrary value 
> ("if len(table) > 5000000") is not the worst idea I've ever had, but I'm 
> hoping for something more deterministic which can be cheaply calculated 
> at runtime.

Have you seen guppy and heapy?

http://guppy-pe.sourceforge.net/

Even if you dont use it directly, it should have syscalls that you can steal


From lecturemaker.tv at gmail.com  Wed Dec 11 20:42:27 2013
From: lecturemaker.tv at gmail.com (lecturemaker.tv at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 17:42:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New class to visualize binary search trees
Message-ID: <e9877864-6f8f-4557-a0b3-65f0ff24455c@googlegroups.com>

I just completed the MITx course: Introduction to Computer Science using Python: 6.00.1x located on the edX website: edx.org.  I thought I would share a class I crafted in python to display and animate binary search trees.  It's my first course in python.

Code, videos, and discussion available here:

Visualizing Software Tree Structures
http://www.embeddedcomponents.com/blogs/2013/12/visualizing-software-tree-structures/

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Best regards,

Ron


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:25:23 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:25:23 -0800
Subject: Strange crashes
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I'm trying to develop a software with Python.
It uses multi threading.

For some unknown reason the program crashes on my employer's machine
but on mine it runs fine.

Exception in thread Thread-3:
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python27\lib\threading.py", line 552, in __bootstrap_inner
    self.run()
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\model\workerthread.py",
line  39, in run
    data = self.func(self.args)
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\controller\controller.py",
line 589, in do_filter
    return m.filter(query, query_result)
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\model\model.py",
line 159, in filter
    res = dbm.find_events(query, qres)
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\model\dbmanager.py",
line 258, in find_events
    res = self.check_query(query)
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\model\dbmanager.py",
line 248, in check_query
    self._close_db()
  File "C:/Users/Nides/Documents/GitHub/l2l_R/lib\model\dbmanager.py",
line 65, in _close_db
    self.conn.commit()
ProgrammingError: SQLite objects created in a thread can only be used
in that same thread.The object was created in thread id 14260 and this
is thread id 9264

Now, I can't do anything about it since I can't reproduce it.
'
So my question is: what might be causing this?
I checked and we both have 1 processor. The only difference is I have
WinXP and he has Win7.

Where should I start looking for causes?

Thank you.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:31:50 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:31:50 +1100
Subject: Strange crashes
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoMbq_Cee-DWW8R+iNt80uNAB14u_m32PhPEQy=PW7-oA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> ProgrammingError: SQLite objects created in a thread can only be used
> in that same thread.The object was created in thread id 14260 and this
> is thread id 9264
>
> Where should I start looking for causes?

Well, I'd look for something that creates an SQLite object on one
thread and uses it on another :)

More generally, your issue is probably due to sharing things across
threads that shouldn't be shared. That's going to give all sorts of
race conditions that you might never be able to replicate - the exact
order of operations might depend on any number of factors, even stuff
you wouldn't expect to have ANY significance like the speed of your
hard drive. The fact that it works on your system is indicative of
luck.

See if you can avoid *any* mutable globals in your thread handlers, or
if you can't achieve that, have a good hard look at every global that
any thread other than the main thread can change. The less you have to
look at, the easier it'll be to find this sort of thing.

ChrisA


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 00:47:21 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:47:21 -0800
Subject: Strange crashes
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoMbq_Cee-DWW8R+iNt80uNAB14u_m32PhPEQy=PW7-oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMbq_Cee-DWW8R+iNt80uNAB14u_m32PhPEQy=PW7-oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxOE16478iGFwErLjddLEijEnn_Q=wDc5ZjPBKRKgREsw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Chris,

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ProgrammingError: SQLite objects created in a thread can only be used
>> in that same thread.The object was created in thread id 14260 and this
>> is thread id 9264
>>
>> Where should I start looking for causes?
>
> Well, I'd look for something that creates an SQLite object on one
> thread and uses it on another :)
>
> More generally, your issue is probably due to sharing things across
> threads that shouldn't be shared. That's going to give all sorts of
> race conditions that you might never be able to replicate - the exact
> order of operations might depend on any number of factors, even stuff
> you wouldn't expect to have ANY significance like the speed of your
> hard drive. The fact that it works on your system is indicative of
> luck.
>
> See if you can avoid *any* mutable globals in your thread handlers, or
> if you can't achieve that, have a good hard look at every global that
> any thread other than the main thread can change. The less you have to
> look at, the easier it'll be to find this sort of thing.

I was afraid to the answer like this. ;-)
The codebase is huge and it a lot of queries with connect/execute/disconnect.

So, when I find the culprit variable what do I do?
Make it a part of some class? Protect it with mutex?

How to solve this? And most importantly, how do _I_ verify that its solved?

Thank you.

>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 01:05:37 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:05:37 +1100
Subject: Strange crashes
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTxOE16478iGFwErLjddLEijEnn_Q=wDc5ZjPBKRKgREsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoMbq_Cee-DWW8R+iNt80uNAB14u_m32PhPEQy=PW7-oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTxOE16478iGFwErLjddLEijEnn_Q=wDc5ZjPBKRKgREsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmruE_9ds32tv6KRUQ8MdYeA6XRz6K489nkk46_L8=HtJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, when I find the culprit variable what do I do?
> Make it a part of some class? Protect it with mutex?
>
> How to solve this? And most importantly, how do _I_ verify that its solved?

>From the look of the error, protecting it with a mutex won't help.

I'm guessing you have multiple threads sharing work, which I hope
implies that your work is I/O bound rather than CPU bound (in CPython,
normally only one thread will be executing Python code at a time). If
those threads are casually sharing objects, you are going to have a
LOT of problems. What you need to do is isolate it down so there are
three groups of objects in the system:

1) Global read-only objects. This includes all your builtins and
stuff, these are fine and safe. It doesn't matter that the 'len'
function is shared across all your threads, because nobody's changing
anything in it.

2) Per-thread objects. At no time do these ever go into any sort of
global namespace; they're always function-local. Again, these are also
guaranteed safe, because there's no way any other thread can tamper
with them.

3) Shared, mutable objects. These are your dangerous ones, the ones
you need to watch carefully.

Since SQLite objects can't (apparently) be shared, it makes most sense
to lock them into group 2. A thread acquires an SQLite connection,
uses it, closes it, and that's that. Nothing shared. If another thread
wants the database, it should create its own independent connection.

If your code is too complicated to be able to figure out which
category everything's in, it might be worth de-threading it
temporarily. Call each thread-function one by one - effectively, have
one thread finish before another thread starts - and then start
refactoring from there. It might help. Alternatively, you could try
switching to multiprocessing, which might highlight problems more
visibly, but that might just introduce more confusion.

It's really a matter of code discipline. In C, the distinction would
be between stack and global/heap data; in Python, everything's stored
on the heap, but there's still the same distinction. It's worth
keeping straight which is which.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 12 00:52:46 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:52:46 -0500
Subject: Strange crashes
References: <CA+FnnTwsx-AenOdnk3a2O4vfUgyuRcwpFb9to=q+kvQeXC5M_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.3961.1386826313.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-6794AA.00524612122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.3961.1386826313.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > ProgrammingError: SQLite objects created in a thread can only be used
> > in that same thread.The object was created in thread id 14260 and this
> > is thread id 9264
> >
> > Where should I start looking for causes?

One thing you might try is having your program print out the names and 
ids of all the threads.  Something like:

for t in threading.enumerate():
   print t.ident, t.name

If you're lucky, you might get some clue as to what each thread is doing 
from its name.  Or, it may not give you any useful information at all.


From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 02:25:53 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:25:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
Message-ID: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I have a list like this:

a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), (51, 193), (51, 191), (51, 190), (51, 189), (51, 188), (50, 194), (50, 187), (50, 186), (50, 185), (50, 184), (49, 194), (49, 183), (49, 182), (49, 181), (48, 194), (48, 180), (48, 179), (48, 178), (48, 177), (47, 194), (47, 176), (47, 175), (47, 174), (47, 173), (46, 195), (46, 172), (46, 171), (46, 170), (46, 169), (45, 195), (45, 168), (45, 167), (45, 166), (44, 195), (44, 165), (44, 164), (44, 163), (44, 162), (43, 195), (43, 161), (43, 160), (43, 159), (43, 158), (42, 196), (42, 157), (42, 156), (42, 155), (41, 196), (41, 154), (41, 153), (41, 152), (41, 151), (40, 196), (40, 150), (40, 149), (40, 148), (40, 147), (39, 196), (39, 146), (39, 145), (39, 144), (39, 143), (38, 196), (38, 142), (38, 141), (38, 140), (37, 197), (37, 139), (37, 138), (37, 137), (37, 136), (36, 197), (36, 135), (36, 134), (36, 133)]


I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).

Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is 52. [1] is 193,193 and 192.
What I need as result for these three tuples is: (52,192,193).

For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).


Extra challenges:
- This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep it unsorted.
- There may be tuples where min=max.
- There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is automatically max


I hope I was able to explain what I mean.

Thanks
Robert


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:18:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:18:41 +1100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqjKyFEMtaMyFArycKi=zb7PQHbeS5Tc=6rZuckOFuqAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Robert Voigtl?nder
<r.voigtlaender at gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
>
> Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is 52. [1] is 193,193 and 192.
> What I need as result for these three tuples is: (52,192,193).
>
> For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).
>
>
> Extra challenges:
> - This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep it unsorted.
> - There may be tuples where min=max.
> - There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is automatically max

Yep, I see what you mean! Apart from the first of the challenges,
which is ambiguous: do you mean you'd rather be able to work with it
unsorted, or is that a typo, "keep it sorted"?

This is a common task of aggregation. Your list is of (key, value)
tuples, and you want to do some per-key statistics. Here are three
variants on the code:

# Fastest version, depends on the keys being already grouped
# and the values sorted within each group. It actually returns
# the last and first, not the smallest and largest.
def min_max_1(lst):
    prev_key = None
    for key, value in lst:
        if key != prev_key:
            if prev_key is not None: yield prev_key, value, key_max
            key_max = value
    if prev_key is not None: yield prev_key, value, key_max

# This version depends on the keys being grouped, but
# not on them being sorted within the groups.
def min_max_2(lst):
    prev_key = None
    for key, value in lst:
        if key != prev_key:
            if prev_key is not None: yield prev_key, key_min, key_max
            key_min = key_max = value
        else:
            key_min = min(key_min, value)
            key_max = min(key_max, value)
    if prev_key is not None: yield prev_key, key_min, key_max

# Slowest version, does not depend on either the keys
# or the values being sorted. Will iterate over the entire
# list before producing any results. Returns tuples in
# arbitrary order, unlike the others (which will retain).
def min_max_3(lst):
    data = {}
    for key, value in lst:
        if key not in data:
            data[key]=(value, value)
        else:
            data[key][0] = min(data[key][0], value)
            data[key][1] = min(data[key][1], value)
    for key, minmax in data.items():
        yield key, minmax[0], minmax[1]

Each of these is a generator that yields (key, min, max) tuples. The
third one needs the most memory and execution time; the others simply
take the input as it comes. None of them actually requires that the
input be a list - any iterable will do.

ChrisA


From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:34:14 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:34:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5aadb848-80e9-460a-b4bb-a8406c46730d@googlegroups.com>

Wow, thanks for the educating answer. I'll work through all the varaints.
And yes, I meant keep it unsorted.

As I read it, sorting may be required then if I don't want to use the slowest variant. I'll test them all.

Thanks
Robert


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:43:01 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:43:01 +1100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <5aadb848-80e9-460a-b4bb-a8406c46730d@googlegroups.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <5aadb848-80e9-460a-b4bb-a8406c46730d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoJruqTw7=bDiaX8A3As-1QoyNdYrbqm+ytnRguTb-L0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Robert Voigtl?nder
<r.voigtlaender at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, thanks for the educating answer. I'll work through all the varaints.
> And yes, I meant keep it unsorted.
>
> As I read it, sorting may be required then if I don't want to use the slowest variant. I'll test them all.

Sorting would be slower than using the dictionary method. Much slower.
If you don't need to sort for any other reason, don't sort!

By the way, it's usually courteous to quote at least some of the text
you're responding to, to give context. Otherwise nobody knows what
you're talking about. This isn't a PHPBB forum; each post actually is
quite separate. You may find that Google Groups makes your life
unnecessarily difficult in this, so it's probably easier to use the
mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ChrisA


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 12 03:35:57 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 09:35:57 +0100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8bsgb$jln$1@ger.gmane.org>

Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I have a list like this:
> 
> a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), (51, 193), (51, 191), (51, 190),
> (51, 189), (51, 188), (50, 194), (50, 187), (50, 186), (50, 185), (50,
> 184), (49, 194), (49, 183), (49, 182), (49, 181), (48, 194), (48, 180),
> (48, 179), (48, 178), (48, 177), (47, 194), (47, 176), (47, 175), (47,
> 174), (47, 173), (46, 195), (46, 172), (46, 171), (46, 170), (46, 169),
> (45, 195), (45, 168), (45, 167), (45, 166), (44, 195), (44, 165), (44,
> 164), (44, 163), (44, 162), (43, 195), (43, 161), (43, 160), (43, 159),
> (43, 158), (42, 196), (42, 157), (42, 156), (42, 155), (41, 196), (41,
> 154), (41, 153), (41, 152), (41, 151), (40, 196), (40, 150), (40, 149),
> (40, 148), (40, 147), (39, 196), (39, 146), (39, 145), (39, 144), (39,
> 143), (38, 196), (38, 142), (38, 141), (38, 140), (37, 197), (37, 139),
> (37, 138), (37
>  , 137), (37, 136), (36, 197), (36, 135), (36, 134), (36, 133)]
> 
> 
> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
> 
> Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is 52. [1]
> is 193,193 and 192. What I need as result for these three tuples is:
> (52,192,193).
> 
> For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).
> 
> 
> Extra challenges:
> - This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep it
> unsorted. - There may be tuples where min=max.
> - There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is automatically
> max
> 
> 
> I hope I was able to explain what I mean.

I have a hunch that sorting the list might be quite efficient. You should at 
least try

import operator
import itertools

a = ...
a.sort()
result = []
for key, group in itertools.groupby(a, key=operator.itemgetter(0)):
    minpair = maxpair = next(group)
    for maxpair in group:
        pass
    result.append((key, minpair[1], maxpair[1]))

for item in result:
    print(item)

to see whether it is good enough.



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 12 04:03:45 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:03:45 +0100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <l8bsgb$jln$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8bu4e$345$1@ger.gmane.org>

Peter Otten wrote:

> Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I have a list like this:
>> 
>> a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), (51, 193), (51, 191), (51, 190),
>> (51, 189), (51, 188), (50, 194), (50, 187), (50, 186), (50, 185), (50,
>> 184), (49, 194), (49, 183), (49, 182), (49, 181), (48, 194), (48, 180),
>> (48, 179), (48, 178), (48, 177), (47, 194), (47, 176), (47, 175), (47,
>> 174), (47, 173), (46, 195), (46, 172), (46, 171), (46, 170), (46, 169),
>> (45, 195), (45, 168), (45, 167), (45, 166), (44, 195), (44, 165), (44,
>> 164), (44, 163), (44, 162), (43, 195), (43, 161), (43, 160), (43, 159),
>> (43, 158), (42, 196), (42, 157), (42, 156), (42, 155), (41, 196), (41,
>> 154), (41, 153), (41, 152), (41, 151), (40, 196), (40, 150), (40, 149),
>> (40, 148), (40, 147), (39, 196), (39, 146), (39, 145), (39, 144), (39,
>> 143), (38, 196), (38, 142), (38, 141), (38, 140), (37, 197), (37, 139),
>> (37, 138), (37
>>  , 137), (37, 136), (36, 197), (36, 135), (36, 134), (36, 133)]
>> 
>> 
>> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
>> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
>> 
>> Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is 52. [1]
>> is 193,193 and 192. What I need as result for these three tuples is:
>> (52,192,193).
>> 
>> For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).
>> 
>> 
>> Extra challenges:
>> - This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep it
>> unsorted. - There may be tuples where min=max.
>> - There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is automatically
>> max
>> 
>> 
>> I hope I was able to explain what I mean.
> 
> I have a hunch that sorting the list might be quite efficient. You should
> at least try
> 
> import operator
> import itertools
> 
> a = ...
> a.sort()
> result = []
> for key, group in itertools.groupby(a, key=operator.itemgetter(0)):
>     minpair = maxpair = next(group)
>     for maxpair in group:
>         pass
>     result.append((key, minpair[1], maxpair[1]))
> 
> for item in result:
>     print(item)
> 
> to see whether it is good enough.

On second thought -- Chris Angelico may be right ;)
So here's my dict-based variant: 

def keyminmax(items):
    d = collections.defaultdict(list)
    for key, value in items:
        d[key].append(value)
    for key, values in d.items(): # d.iteritems() in python 2
        yield key, min(values), max(values)

for item in keyminmax(a):
    print(item)

It uses a bit more memory than Chris' code, but has fewer min()/max() calls.



From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Thu Dec 12 03:52:12 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 10:52:12 +0200
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qotiouuzc1v.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Robert Voigtl?nder writes:

> Hi,
> 
> I have a list like this:

# shortened:
a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192),
     (51, 193), (51, 191), (51, 190), (51, 189), (51, 188),
     (50, 194)]

> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
> 
> Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is
> 52. [1] is 193,193 and 192.  What I need as result for these three
> tuples is: (52,192,193).
> 
> For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).

I think you want [(50, 194, 194), (51, 188, 193), (52, 192, 193)] for
the shortened list, in some order. Then you might be happy with a dict
instead. If I misunderstand, the following will be irrelevant.

> Extra challenges:
> - This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep
>   it unsorted.
> - There may be tuples where min=max.
> - There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is
>   automatically max

Scan the list and keep the running min and max for each key in a dict.

mix = dict()
for k,v in a:
   mix[k] = ( min(mix.get(k, (v,v))[0], v),
              max(mix.get(k, (v,v))[1], v) )

# mix == {50: (194, 194), 51: (188, 193), 52: (192, 193)}
# As list: [ (k,v[0],v[1]) for k,v in mix.items() ]


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 06:44:32 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 11:44:32 GMT
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:25:53 -0800, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I have a list like this:
> 
> a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), ...
> 
> 
> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "performant". It doesn't appear 
to be an English word, so far as I can tell. Do you mean efficient?

 
> Hard to explaint what I mean .. [0] of the first three tuples is 52. [1]
> is 193,193 and 192. What I need as result for these three tuples is:
> (52,192,193).
> 
> For the next five tuples it is (51,188,193).
> 
> 
> Extra challenges:
> - This list is sorted. For performance reasons I would like to keep it
> unsorted. 

Normally when people talk about "performance", they mean to *maximise* 
it, not minimise it. If you can guarantee that your data is already pre-
sorted, then the resulting algorithm is likely to be much more efficient 
than one which doesn't require sorted data.

In any case, sorting in Python is amazingly fast. You may be pleasantly 
surprised that a version that sorts your data, while nominally 
O(N log N), may be much faster than an O(N) solution that doesn't require 
sorted data. If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to wager a shiny new 
dollar[1] that sorting works out faster for reasonable sized sets of data.

One general piece of advice for speeding up Python code: the more work 
you can delegate to Python built-ins, like sort, min, max and so forth, 
the faster your code is likely to be.


> - There may be tuples where min=max.
> - There my be tupples where [0] only exists once. So mix is
> automatically max

Neither of these should be a problem.


The first approach I'd try would be:

- sort the list, which will group the tuples by their first item;

- conveniently, it will also ensure that the first tuple in each group 
will have the minimum second item, and the last tuple of that group the 
maximum value;

- use itertools.groupby to extract each group;

- grab the first tuple from the group, and take both its items;

- grab the last tuple from the group (if any), and take its second item;

- yield those three items.


Something like this should work, I expect:

from collections import deque
from itertools import groupby
from operator import itemgetter

def collect(data):
    data = sorted(data)
    groups = groupby(data, itemgetter(0))
    d = deque([], maxlen=1)
    for key, subiter in groups:
        smallest = largest = next(subiter)[1]
        d.extend(subiter)
        try:
            largest = d.pop()[1]
        except IndexError:
            pass
        yield (key, smallest, largest)
    


And in use:

py> data = [(1, 4), (5, 3), (2, 7), (2, 3), (1, 3), (2, 5), 
...         (5, 3), (4, 9)]
py> list(collect(data))
[(1, 3, 4), (2, 3, 7), (4, 9, 9), (5, 3, 3)]




[1] Betting man or not, nobody ever accused me of being a spend-thrift.



-- 
Steven


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Dec 12 07:04:54 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:04:54 -0600
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20131212060454.6b97faca@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-12 11:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In any case, sorting in Python is amazingly fast. You may be
> pleasantly surprised that a version that sorts your data, while
> nominally O(N log N), may be much faster than an O(N) solution that
> doesn't require sorted data. If I were a betting man, I'd be
> willing to wager a shiny new dollar[1] that sorting works out
> faster for reasonable sized sets of data.

An interesting observation given the "Optimizing list processing"
thread you recently opened about algorithms for processing large
volumes of data and finding that elbow where two algorithms cross on
the performance graph. :-)

-tkc





From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 12 07:36:51 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:36:51 +0000
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52A9ADE3.2060804@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 11:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:25:53 -0800, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a list like this:
>>
>> a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), ...
>>
>>
>> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
>> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
>
> I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "performant". It doesn't appear
> to be an English word, so far as I can tell. Do you mean efficient?
>
[snip]

There's some debate over whether it's English or not:

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/38945/what-is-wrong-with-the-word-performant



From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 12 07:54:10 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:54:10 +0100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8cbkf$3br$1@ger.gmane.org>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> In any case, sorting in Python is amazingly fast. You may be pleasantly
> surprised that a version that sorts your data, while nominally
> O(N log N), may be much faster than an O(N) solution that doesn't require
> sorted data. If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to wager a shiny new
> dollar[1] that sorting works out faster for reasonable sized sets of data.

Well, that was my first reaction, too. But then

 
$ cat keyminmax.py
import operator
import itertools
import collections

def minmax_groupby(items):
    for key, group in itertools.groupby(sorted(items), 
key=operator.itemgetter(0)):
        minpair = maxpair = next(group)
        for maxpair in group:
            pass
        yield key, minpair[1], maxpair[1]

def minmax_dict(items):
    d = collections.defaultdict(list)
    for key, value in items:
        d[key].append(value)
    for key, values in d.items():
        yield key, min(values), max(values)

a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), (51, 193), (51, 191), (51, 190),
     (51, 189), (51, 188), (50, 194), (50, 187),(50, 186), (50, 185),
     (50, 184), (49, 194), (49, 183), (49, 182), (49, 181), (48, 194),
     (48, 180), (48, 179), (48, 178), (48, 177), (47, 194), (47, 176),
     (47, 175), (47, 174), (47, 173), (46, 195), (46, 172), (46, 171),
     (46, 170), (46, 169), (45, 195), (45, 168), (45, 167), (45, 166),
     (44, 195), (44, 165), (44, 164), (44, 163), (44, 162), (43, 195),
     (43, 161), (43, 160), (43, 159), (43, 158), (42, 196), (42, 157),
     (42, 156), (42, 155), (41, 196), (41, 154), (41, 153), (41, 152),
     (41, 151), (40, 196), (40, 150), (40, 149), (40, 148), (40, 147),
     (39, 196), (39, 146), (39, 145), (39, 144), (39, 143), (38, 196),
     (38, 142), (38, 141), (38, 140), (37, 197), (37, 139), (37, 138),
     (37, 137), (37, 136), (36, 197), (36, 135), (36, 134), (36, 133)]

from collections import deque
from itertools import groupby
from operator import itemgetter

def collect(data):
    data = sorted(data)
    groups = groupby(data, itemgetter(0))
    d = deque([], maxlen=1)
    for key, subiter in groups:
        smallest = largest = next(subiter)[1]
        d.extend(subiter)
        try:
            largest = d.pop()[1]
        except IndexError:
            pass
        yield (key, smallest, largest)


def time_dict():
    for item in minmax_dict(a):
        pass

def time_groupby():
    for item in minmax_groupby(a):
        pass

def time_daprano():
    for item in collect(a):
        pass

$ python -m timeit -s 'from keyminmax import time_groupby as t' 't()'
10000 loops, best of 3: 68.6 usec per loop
$ python -m timeit -s 'from keyminmax import time_dict as t' 't()'
10000 loops, best of 3: 53.3 usec per loop
$ python -m timeit -s 'from keyminmax import time_daprano as t' 't()'
10000 loops, best of 3: 75.7 usec per loop

So yes, sorting seems to be slower even for small datasets.



From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 12 10:02:33 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:02:33 -0500
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "performant".

I've heard the term used often.  It means something like, "performs 
well" or "runs fast".  It may or may not be an English word, but that 
doesn't stop people from using it :-)


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 10:13:23 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:13:23 +0000
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8cjqj$7mc$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 15:02, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>   Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "performant".
>
> I've heard the term used often.  It means something like, "performs
> well" or "runs fast".  It may or may not be an English word, but that
> doesn't stop people from using it :-)
>

If "google" can be used to mean "make huge amouts of money with a 
product that is inherently flawed" then I'll happily accept "performant" 
as an English word, regardless of whether the English variant is UK, US, 
Australian, New Zealand, Soth African, Geordie, Glaswegian or any other :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From r.voigtlaender at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 01:28:51 2013
From: r.voigtlaender at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Robert_Voigtl=E4nder?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:28:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>

>I've heard the term used often.  It means something like, "performs 
>well" or "runs fast".  It may or may not be an English word, but that 
>doesn't stop people from using it :-) 

> If "google" can be used to mean "make huge amouts of money with a 
> product that is inherently flawed" then I'll happily accept "performant" 
> as an English word, regardless of whether the English variant is UK, US, 
> Australian, New Zealand, Soth African, Geordie, Glaswegian or any other :)

Indeed it's not an english word. I have to stop using it. In German it's used with the meaning of "runs fast". Even though it's already not that clearly defined there.

Thanks for the help on the topic of data aggregation. It helped a lot and I again learned somthing.
I have a performant  .. well .. fast running solution now.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 13:06:30 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:06:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 11:58:51 AM UTC+5:30, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
> >I've heard the term used often.  It means something like, "performs 
> >well" or "runs fast".  It may or may not be an English word, but that 
> >doesn't stop people from using it :-) 

> > If "google" can be used to mean "make huge amouts of money with a 
> > product that is inherently flawed" then I'll happily accept "performant" 
> > as an English word, regardless of whether the English variant is UK, US, 
> > Australian, New Zealand, Soth African, Geordie, Glaswegian or any other :)

> Indeed it's not an english word. I have to stop using it. In German
> it's used with the meaning of "runs fast". Even though it's already
> not that clearly defined there.

> Thanks for the help on the topic of data aggregation. It helped a
> lot and I again learned somthing.  I have a performant .. well
> .. fast running solution now.

Well "performant" is performant enough for the purposes of communicating
on the python list I think :D


From timr at probo.com  Sat Dec 14 22:41:15 2013
From: timr at probo.com (Tim Roberts)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 19:41:15 -0800
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
 <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4102.1386981019.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Well "performant" is performant enough for the purposes of communicating
>>on the python list I think :D
>
>	Most probably could figure it out as being stylistically similar to
>"conformant", which I believe IS used in English <G>
>
>conformant => something that conforms
>performant => something that performs

Yes, I suspect it comes from people expecting too much consistency.  If
something that has "conformance" is "conformant", then something that has
good "performance" must be "performant".
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr at probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 07:08:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:08:48 +1100
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
 <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4102.1386981019.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo3k8DFZOagBsgP1=3DdHPyH5qS=eEi6C+-21AfG-8erA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Tim Roberts <timr at probo.com> wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Well "performant" is performant enough for the purposes of communicating
>>>on the python list I think :D
>>
>>       Most probably could figure it out as being stylistically similar to
>>"conformant", which I believe IS used in English <G>
>>
>>conformant => something that conforms
>>performant => something that performs
>
> Yes, I suspect it comes from people expecting too much consistency.  If
> something that has "conformance" is "conformant", then something that has
> good "performance" must be "performant".

In a surprising coincidence, the word "performant" came up in a Daily
MTG article today:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/278

Though it is used in double quotes to indicate that it's not exactly
standard English :)

Funny to see two nerdy interests meet!

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 10:49:09 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
 <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4102.1386981019.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <d1f0cda2-28c9-47ab-9d79-0edc9c136e50@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:11:15 AM UTC+5:30, Tim Roberts wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> >>Well "performant" is performant enough for the purposes of communicating
> >>on the python list I think :D
> >	Most probably could figure it out as being stylistically similar to
> >conformant => something that conforms
> >performant => something that performs

> Yes, I suspect it comes from people expecting too much consistency.  If
> something that has "conformance" is "conformant", then something that has
> good "performance" must be "performant".

And things that have consistency are of course...

consistant

(not consistent)


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 16 10:59:07 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:59:07 -0500
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <d1f0cda2-28c9-47ab-9d79-0edc9c136e50@googlegroups.com>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
 <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4102.1386981019.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
 <d1f0cda2-28c9-47ab-9d79-0edc9c136e50@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8n7vu$7uf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/13 10:49 AM, rusi wrote:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:11:15 AM UTC+5:30, Tim Roberts wrote:
>> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>>> Well "performant" is performant enough for the purposes of communicating
>>>> on the python list I think :D
>>> 	Most probably could figure it out as being stylistically similar to
>>> conformant => something that conforms
>>> performant => something that performs
>
>> Yes, I suspect it comes from people expecting too much consistency.  If
>> something that has "conformance" is "conformant", then something that has
>> good "performance" must be "performant".
>
> And things that have consistency are of course...
>
> consistant
>
> (not consistent)
>

In English, it's spelled consistent: 
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consistant

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Dec 16 17:49:15 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:49:15 +1300
Subject: min max from tuples in list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4220.1387209564.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-346C6D.10023312122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4001.1386861307.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c1a6930f-13ba-4e84-a35d-e50f1c00f50f@googlegroups.com>
 <60cce71c-dad2-4a7b-a5d0-daa45a6b0e28@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4102.1386981019.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <i59qa91d3dj5eqj743nfkombkged69lvo4@4ax.com>
 <d1f0cda2-28c9-47ab-9d79-0edc9c136e50@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4220.1387209564.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bh9ebbFodecU1@mid.individual.net>

Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/16/13 10:49 AM, rusi wrote:
> 
>> And things that have consistency are of course...
>>
>> consistant
>>
>> (not consistent)
>
> In English, it's spelled consistent: 
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/consistant

So to be consistent we should spell it performent? :-)

-- 
Greg


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 18:25:49 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 12 Dec 2013 23:25:49 GMT
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3983.1386851815.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52aa45fd$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:36:51 +0000, MRAB wrote:

> On 12/12/2013 11:44, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:25:53 -0800, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have a list like this:
>>>
>>> a = [(52, 193), (52, 193), (52, 192), ...
>>>
>>>
>>> I need to find a -performant- way to transform this into a list with
>>> tuples (a[0],[a[0][1]min],[a[0][1]max]).
>>
>> I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by "performant". It doesn't
>> appear to be an English word, so far as I can tell. Do you mean
>> efficient?
>>
> [snip]
> 
> There's some debate over whether it's English or not:
> 
> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/38945/what-is-wrong-with-the-
word-performant


Ah! I've never come across it before, and it wasn't in any of the 
electronic dictionaries I tried, nor the dead-tree Shorter Oxford.

I think I don't dislike it.


-- 
Steven


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 12 21:36:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 13 Dec 2013 02:36:56 GMT
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
 <52a9a1a0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.3985.1386852841.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52aa72c8$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:54:10 +0100, Peter Otten wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> In any case, sorting in Python is amazingly fast. You may be pleasantly
>> surprised that a version that sorts your data, while nominally O(N log
>> N), may be much faster than an O(N) solution that doesn't require
>> sorted data. If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to wager a shiny
>> new dollar[1] that sorting works out faster for reasonable sized sets
>> of data.
> 
> Well, that was my first reaction, too. But then

[snip timeit results]

On my system, I don't get quite the same results as you. I find that the 
groupby solution is slightly faster than the dict solution, although both 
are slightly faster than the version I came up with. All three are plenty 
fast enough though. Using the same function definitions as you, I get:

py> from timeit import Timer
py> setup = "from __main__ import time_dict, time_groupby, time_daprano"
py> t1 = Timer("_ = time_dict()", setup)
py> t2 = Timer("_ = time_groupby()", setup)
py> t3 = Timer("_ = time_daprano()", setup)

and results:

py> min(t1.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
6.7522243447601795
py> min(t2.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
6.7246054373681545
py> min(t3.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
7.116707382723689

But, there's a flaw in the above analysis. The list that you give is pre-
sorted, and Python's sort routine is *very* efficient at sorting already 
sorted lists. So I randomly shuffled it and redid the tests. Now the 
advantage of the dict solution is clear:

py> from random import shuffle
py> shuffle(a)
py> min(t1.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
6.611802507191896
py> shuffle(a)
py> min(t2.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
8.499449279159307
py> shuffle(a)
py> min(t3.repeat(number=100000, repeat=6))
9.61335832811892


The dict solution is hardly changed (slightly faster, although I guess 
that is just due to random timing fluctuations and not meaningful). The 
other two, on the other hand, are quite a bit slower with unsorted data.

Nevertheless, it should be pointed out that even in the worst case, it's 
still pretty damn fast: less than 0.0001s to process a list with 78 
items, or about 1.3 microseconds per item.

A couple of other observations:

- The collect() function is the same algorithm as the minmax_groupby() 
function, the only difference being the implementation. I would expect 
(but haven't tested) that the collect() version using a deque instead of 
manually iterating over the items in each group would be faster if there 
were a lot of items per group.

- The dict version has an advantage that hashing integers is fast. If 
hashing the keys is slower, it may no longer be quite so good.

- The dict version keeps a list of all the values it sees, including 
duplicates. Instead of a list, a set may be sufficient:

def minmax_dict(items):
    d = collections.defaultdict(set)
    for key, value in items:
        d[key].add(value)
    for key, values in d.items():
        yield key, min(values), max(values)

It might even be worthwhile experimenting with something which simply 
stores the minimum and maximum values seen, rather than all the values. 
If there are a lot of items in each group, or if the comparisons are 
expensive, calculating the min and max in a single pass may be worthwhile:

http://code.activestate.com/recipes/577916-fast-minmax-function/




-- 
Steven


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 20:33:46 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:33:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: min max from tuples in list
References: <f78a11dc-efdd-4108-8d1f-59386f020fd0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8do5p$47g$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:25:53 -0800, Robert Voigtl?nder wrote:

> I have a list like this:
> 
> a = [(52, 193), ...... (36, 133)]
 
# iterate over the list of tuples
# creates a dictionary n0:[n1a, n1b, n1c ... ]
# from tuples (n0,n1a), (n0,n1b), (n0,n1c) ...

b = {}
for x in a:
    if x[0] in b:
        pass
    else:
        b[x[0]] = []
    if x[1] not in b[x[0]]:
        b[x[0]].append( x[1] )

# iterate over the dictionary
# create the list of result tuples (n0, n1min, n1max) .....

c = [ (x, min(y), max(y) ) for x,y in b.iteritems() ]
print c

There may be a more efficient test for whether b[x[0]] eists than 
trapping keyError.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Thu Dec 12 02:33:11 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:03:11 +1030
Subject: Module missing when embedding?
Message-ID: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi all,

I am attempting to embed Python 3.3.3 into an application.

Following advice which suggests not using multiple interpreters, I am 
experimenting using a *single* interpreter and multiple threads.

So far I have been loading directly into "__main__", ie. something like 
this:

PyObject *main_module = PyImport_AddModule("__main__");

PyObject *dg = PyModule_GetDict(main_module);
PyObject *dl = PyModule_GetDict(main_module);
PyObject *rv = PyRun_String(str, Py_file_input, dg, dl);

A stripped down script looks like this:

import mymodule

class Foo:
   def bar(self):
     mymodule.mycall("a")

mymodule is set up once as:

PyImport_AppendInittab("mymodule", PyInit_mymodule);
Py_SetProgramName((wchar_t *)"foo");
Py_InitializeEx(0);
PyEval_InitThreads();
mtstate = PyThreadState_Get();
PyEval_ReleaseThread(mtstate);

And per thread as:

PyImportModule_ImportModule("mymodule");

This works, and when an instance of Foo is created, calling bar() on it 
triggers the mymodule mycall call.

I want to load scripts into their own dedicated module- I don't want 
each thread loading into "__main__" if there is only one interpreter! 
Anyway, let's try:

PyObject *module = PyModule_New();

PyObject *dg = PyModule_GetDict(module);
PyObject *dl = PyModule_GetDict(module);
PyObject *rv = PyRun_String(str, Py_file_input, dg, dl);

No good. I get:

"__import__ not found"

on load. Trying again: Let's point dg at the "__main__" module instead:

PyObject *dg = PyModule_GetDict(main_module);
PyObject *dl = PyModule_GetDict(module);
PyObject *rv = PyRun_String(str, Py_file_input, dg, dl);

and it loads. Is this the right way to go about it or have I done 
something foolish?

Anyway, later on, I create an object of type Foo and call bar() on it, 
exactly as I did before. I get:

"global name 'mymodule' is not defined"

Darn. The offending line is:

     mymodule.mycall("a")

Now, in the script I load, this line is okay:

import mymodule

and this works if I try it:

from mymodule import mycall

but this does not:

from mymodule import call_that_does_not_exist

As expected. This suggests that Python understands there is a "mymodule" 
module and it contains "mycall", and not "call_that_doesnt_exist".

However, as mentioned, when I call bar() on a Foo object, it tries to call:

mymodule.mycall("a")

which worked when it was loaded into "__main__", but now I get:

"global name 'mymodule' is not defined"

With "from mymodule import mycall" in the script, I try:

mycall("a")

instead, and I get:

"global name 'mycall' is not defined"

A trace in PyInit_mymodule confirms it is being run, ie. mymodule is 
being set up. The import calls seem to confirm that "mymodule" exists, 
and "mycall" exists within it. When loaded into __main__, it works as 
expected. When loaded into a different module, it doesn't.

I structured a pure Python test that had the main script load one 
module, which imported another module, and called it in the same way. It 
worked.

I'll also point out that whilst I'm set up to use multiple threads, I am 
only using two threads at the point of the errors. I do the global setup 
in the main thread, and then never use it again, and do one lot of 
per-thread setup in a child thread, after which the errors occur. I'm 
being pedantic about GIL locking in any case.

I've had to transcribe the above code by hand. Whilst I've checked and I 
think it's fine, there is a small chance of typos.

Any ideas about what I might be doing wrong? Anything I can try on the 
Python side or the C API side? My Python knowledge is a bit rusty so I 
may have missed something obvious on the Python side. If there are any 
resources online that show something similar to what I am doing, please 
share, and I'll do the legwork. More info available if needed- just ask.

Cheers,
Garth

PS. Finishing off a test suite to illustrate, will post soon. It doesn't 
appear to be a thread issue.



From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Thu Dec 12 02:47:24 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:17:24 +1030
Subject: Module missing when embedding?
In-Reply-To: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52A96A0C.6030806@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi all,

I've written a minimal set of tests illustrate the issue, which also 
confirms it is independent of threading. Details below. If you build it, 
you might need to tweak the Makefile to run on your system. The script 
"run" will run all eight tests. They pass only when we load everything 
into "__main__", and fail otherwise. I hope this helps highlight what I 
might be doing wrong.

Cheers,
Garth

============= applepy.c:

#include <stdio.h>
#include <Python.h>

#define SCRIPT \
   "import mymodule\n" \
   "\n"\
   "class ClassA:\n" \
   "  def foo(self):\n"\
   "    mymodule.mycall(\"a\")\n"

static int success = 0;
static int tn;

static PyObject *DoMyCall(PyObject *selfr, PyObject *argsr)
{
   //fprintf(stderr, "In DoMyCall\n");
   success = 1;
   Py_INCREF(Py_None);
   return Py_None;
}

static PyMethodDef mycallMethods[] = {
   {"mycall", DoMyCall, METH_VARARGS, "foo"},
   {NULL, NULL, 0, NULL}
};

static struct PyModuleDef mycallModule = {
   PyModuleDef_HEAD_INIT,
   "mymodule", NULL, -1,
   mycallMethods
};

PyMODINIT_FUNC PyInit_mymodule()
{
   return PyModule_Create(&mycallModule);
}

static void check(PyObject *r, const char *msg)
{
   if (!r)
   {
     fprintf(stderr, "FAILED: %s.\n", msg);
     PyErr_PrintEx(0);
     fprintf(stderr, "=== Test %d: Failed.\n", tn);
     exit(1);
   }
}

int main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
   if (argc != 2)
   {
     fprintf(stderr, "Usage: applepy <test>\n");
     exit(1);
   }

   tn = atoi(argv[1]);
   fprintf(stderr, "=== Test %d: Started.\n", tn);
   int test_into_main = tn & 1;
   int test_global_is_module = tn & 2;
   int test_threaded = tn & 4;

   fprintf(stderr, "Load into main:   %s\n", test_into_main ? "y" : "n");
   fprintf(stderr, "Global is module: %s\n", test_global_is_module ? "y" 
: "n");
   fprintf(stderr, "Threaded:         %s\n", test_threaded ? "y" : "n");

   PyGILState_STATE gil;

   PyImport_AppendInittab("mymodule", PyInit_mymodule);
   Py_SetProgramName((wchar_t *)"program");
   Py_InitializeEx(0);

   if (test_threaded)
   {
     PyEval_InitThreads();
     PyThreadState *mtstate = PyThreadState_Get();
     PyEval_ReleaseThread(mtstate);
     gil = PyGILState_Ensure();
   }
   PyObject *main_module = PyImport_AddModule("__main__");
   PyObject *module = PyModule_New("hello");

   if (test_into_main)
     module = main_module;

   PyObject *dg = PyModule_GetDict(test_global_is_module ? module : 
main_module);
   check(dg, "global dict");
   PyObject *dl = PyModule_GetDict(module);
   check(dl, "local dict");
   PyObject *load = PyRun_String(SCRIPT, Py_file_input, dg, dl);
   check(load, "load");

   PyObject *obj = PyObject_CallMethod(module, "ClassA", NULL);
   check(obj, "create object of ClassA");
   PyObject *func = PyObject_GetAttrString(obj, "foo");
   check(func, "obtain foo()");
   PyObject *args = PyTuple_New(0);
   check(args, "args for foo()");
   PyObject *rv = PyObject_CallObject(func, args);
   check(rv, "call foo()");

   if (test_threaded)
     PyGILState_Release(gil);

   if (success)
     fprintf(stderr, "=== Test %d: Success.\n", tn);
   else
     fprintf(stderr, "=== Test %d: FAILED (completed but mycall() not 
called).\n", tn);

   return 0;
}

============= Makefile:

PYINCLUDE=/opt/python/include/python3.3m
PYLIBS=/opt/python/lib

CPPFLAGS=-g -Wall
CC=gcc
LINK=gcc

applepy: applepy.o
	$(LINK) -o applepy applepy.o $(CPPFLAGS) -L$(PYLIBS) -lpython3.3m -ldl 
-lm -lpthread -lutil
	
applepy.o: applepy.c
	$(CC) -c -o applepy.o applepy.c $(CPPFLAGS) -I$(PYINCLUDE)

clean:
	rm -f applepy applepy.o
	
============= run:

#!/bin/sh
make clean
make applepy || exit 1
for t in 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7; do
   ./applepy $t
done

============= Sample output:

rm -f applepy applepy.o
gcc -c -o applepy.o applepy.c -g -Wall -I/opt/python/include/python3.3m
gcc -o applepy applepy.o -g -Wall -L/opt/python/lib -lpython3.3m -ldl 
-lm -lpthread -lutil
=== Test 0: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: n
Threaded:         n
FAILED: call foo().
=== Test 0: Failed.
=== Test 1: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: n
Threaded:         n
=== Test 1: Success.
=== Test 2: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: y
Threaded:         n
FAILED: load.
=== Test 2: Failed.
=== Test 3: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: y
Threaded:         n
=== Test 3: Success.
=== Test 4: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: n
Threaded:         y
FAILED: call foo().
=== Test 4: Failed.
=== Test 5: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: n
Threaded:         y
=== Test 5: Success.
=== Test 6: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: y
Threaded:         y
FAILED: load.
=== Test 6: Failed.
=== Test 7: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: y
Threaded:         y
=== Test 7: Success.


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Thu Dec 12 02:57:12 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:27:12 +1030
Subject: Module missing when embedding?
In-Reply-To: <52A96A0C.6030806@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>
 <52A96A0C.6030806@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52A96C58.3080100@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi all,

The output I collected skipped the error messages for some reason. 
Updated test output with full errors follows.

Cheers,
Garth

---

rm -f applepy applepy.o
gcc -c -o applepy.o applepy.c -g -Wall -I/opt/python/include/python3.3m
gcc -o applepy applepy.o -g -Wall -L/opt/python/lib -lpython3.3m -ldl 
-lm -lpthread -lutil
=== Test 0: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: n
Threaded:         n
FAILED: call foo().
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<string>", line 5, in foo
NameError: global name 'mymodule' is not defined
=== Test 0: Failed.
=== Test 1: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: n
Threaded:         n
=== Test 1: Success.
=== Test 2: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: y
Threaded:         n
FAILED: load.
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
ImportError: __import__ not found
=== Test 2: Failed.
=== Test 3: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: y
Threaded:         n
=== Test 3: Success.
=== Test 4: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: n
Threaded:         y
FAILED: call foo().
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<string>", line 5, in foo
NameError: global name 'mymodule' is not defined
=== Test 4: Failed.
=== Test 5: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: n
Threaded:         y
=== Test 5: Success.
=== Test 6: Started.
Load into main:   n
Global is module: y
Threaded:         y
FAILED: load.
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
ImportError: __import__ not found
=== Test 6: Failed.
=== Test 7: Started.
Load into main:   y
Global is module: y
Threaded:         y
=== Test 7: Success.


From garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com  Tue Dec 17 03:18:20 2013
From: garthy_nhtyp at entropicsoftware.com (Garthy)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:48:20 +1030
Subject: Module missing when embedding?
In-Reply-To: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>
References: <52A966B7.10003@entropicsoftware.com>
Message-ID: <52B008CC.9010206@entropicsoftware.com>


Hi all,

On 12/12/13 18:03, Garthy wrote:
 > I am attempting to embed Python 3.3.3 into an application.

...

 > Any ideas about what I might be doing wrong? Anything I can try on the
 > Python side or the C API side? My Python knowledge is a bit rusty so I
 > may have missed something obvious on the Python side. If there are any
 > resources online that show something similar to what I am doing, please
 > share, and I'll do the legwork. More info available if needed- just ask.

Thanks to anyone who may have looked at this or the subsequent test(s) I 
posted. The problem has since been solved by loading modules through 
another method.

Cheers,
Garth


From amjadcsu at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 02:49:09 2013
From: amjadcsu at gmail.com (Amjad Syed)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:49:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
Message-ID: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>

Hello,

I have 2 counters generated from list using  Collections.counter()

I want to print only key,values in Counter2 which have values > then corresponding value in Counter1.

E.g
Counter1={97:1,99:2,196:2,198:1}
Counter2={97:1 ,99:3, 196:1,198:1}

# Output
[99,3]
# Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key


Thanks


From xpysol at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 04:55:26 2013
From: xpysol at gmail.com (Wolfgang Maier)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:55:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f7f14483-99e0-47c9-adaa-9392f858a6a9@googlegroups.com>

> I want to print only key,values in Counter2 which have values > then corresponding value in Counter1.
> E.g
> Counter1={97:1,99:2,196:2,198:1}
> Counter2={97:1 ,99:3, 196:1,198:1}
> 
> # Output
> [99,3]
>

Try:

[[key, Counter2[key]] for key in Counter1 if Counter2[key] > Counter1[key]]

for a start.
If you can't guarantee that every key from Counter1 is also in Counter2 you could use something like:

[[key, Counter2[key]] for key in Counter1 if key in Counter2 and Counter2[key] > Counter1[key]]

Best,
Wolfgang


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 05:11:18 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:11:18 +0000
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <f7f14483-99e0-47c9-adaa-9392f858a6a9@googlegroups.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <f7f14483-99e0-47c9-adaa-9392f858a6a9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8c246$hck$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 09:55, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
>> I want to print only key,values in Counter2 which have values > then corresponding value in Counter1.
>> E.g
>> Counter1={97:1,99:2,196:2,198:1}
>> Counter2={97:1 ,99:3, 196:1,198:1}
>>
>> # Output
>> [99,3]
>>
>
> Try:
>
> [[key, Counter2[key]] for key in Counter1 if Counter2[key] > Counter1[key]]
>
> for a start.
> If you can't guarantee that every key from Counter1 is also in Counter2 you could use something like:
>
> [[key, Counter2[key]] for key in Counter1 if key in Counter2 and Counter2[key] > Counter1[key]]
>
> Best,
> Wolfgang
>

Personal preference I suppose, but give me a for loop any day of the 
week, guess I just find them more readable :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 20:59:31 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:59:31 +1000
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/12/2013 5:49 PM, Amjad Syed wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have 2 counters generated from list using  Collections.counter()
>
> I want to print only key,values in Counter2 which have values > then corresponding value in Counter1.
>
> E.g
> Counter1={97:1,99:2,196:2,198:1}
> Counter2={97:1 ,99:3, 196:1,198:1}
>
> # Output
> [99,3]
> # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key

     [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]

Counters are awesome.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 21:32:05 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:32:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:29:31 AM UTC+5:30, alex23 wrote:
> > # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key

>      [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]

Why not just?

Counter2 - Counter1

And if you want to uncounterify it then
dict(Counter2 - Counter1)

> Counters are awesome.

Yes -- agreed. But 'counter' is a strange name -- after checking whether
'bag' and 'multiset' are there in the library, I would not think to
check anything else.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 21:37:29 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:37:29 +1100
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
 <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq-crivChgo9TS6qF6qc56Qi0w86_i2v4h6mPrLbikGzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 1:32 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> But 'counter' is a strange name -- after checking whether
> 'bag' and 'multiset' are there in the library, I would not think to
> check anything else.

Which is why we have this list. Question: Is there a way to do x, y,
and z, in Python? Answer: Check out this module! *returns time machine
keys to Guido*

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 15 21:40:57 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:40:57 -0500
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
 <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-46969D.21405715122013@news.panix.com>

In article <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914 at googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:29:31 AM UTC+5:30, alex23 wrote:
> > > # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in 
> > > value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key
> 
> >      [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]
> 
> Why not just?
> 
> Counter2 - Counter1
> 
> And if you want to uncounterify it then
> dict(Counter2 - Counter1)
> 
> > Counters are awesome.
> 
> Yes -- agreed. But 'counter' is a strange name -- after checking whether
> 'bag' and 'multiset' are there in the library, I would not think to
> check anything else.

Bag and multiset are names only CS weenies would think to look for.  
Counter is the name for the rest of us :-)


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 22:28:39 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 19:28:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <roy-46969D.21405715122013@news.panix.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
 <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-46969D.21405715122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <0e55d4ed-f8e0-4c72-b802-db05e43696e7@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 8:10:57 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>  rusi  wrote:

> > On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:29:31 AM UTC+5:30, alex23 wrote:
> > > > # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in 
> > > > value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key
> > >      [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]
> > Why not just?
> > Counter2 - Counter1
> > And if you want to uncounterify it then
> > dict(Counter2 - Counter1)
> > > Counters are awesome.
> > Yes -- agreed. But 'counter' is a strange name -- after checking whether
> > 'bag' and 'multiset' are there in the library, I would not think to
> > check anything else.

> Bag and multiset are names only CS weenies would think to look for.  
> Counter is the name for the rest of us :-)

Weenie? WEENIE?!? Harrumph! Im offended!! <wink>

More seriously: One issue with all the new good stuff --
comprehensions, generator expressions, dict comprehensions etc is that
the motivations/explanations are all couched imperatively.

So
1.

[something(v) for v in lst]

is understood as
2.

newlst = []
for v in lst:
  newlst.append(something(v))

and so the comprehension is just a one-liner for the for-loop
[Witness Mark's comments earlier that the for loop is more readable]

If instead the comprenension is seen as a programmers equivalent of the
set theory expression

3.

{something(v) | v ? lst }  # if the unicode gods deign to allow!

then they would be more easily appreciated and used.

The extreme example of this is that the implementation of
comprehensions were and continue to be wrong because of variable
leakage because 1 is equivalenced to 2 rather than 3.

To come back to the topic: Counter suggesting DO-ing counting
whereas  bag/multiset suggests BE-ing with counts;
ie the one sounds imperative, the other declarative

(which of course may mean its a CS-weenie speaking!)


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 04:20:42 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:20:42 +0000
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <roy-46969D.21405715122013@news.panix.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
 <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-46969D.21405715122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8mgl0$cik$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 02:40, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914 at googlegroups.com>,
>   rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:29:31 AM UTC+5:30, alex23 wrote:
>>>> # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in
>>>> value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key
>>
>>>       [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]
>>
>> Why not just?
>>
>> Counter2 - Counter1
>>
>> And if you want to uncounterify it then
>> dict(Counter2 - Counter1)
>>
>>> Counters are awesome.
>>
>> Yes -- agreed. But 'counter' is a strange name -- after checking whether
>> 'bag' and 'multiset' are there in the library, I would not think to
>> check anything else.
>
> Bag and multiset are names only CS weenies would think to look for.
> Counter is the name for the rest of us :-)
>

Give me bag or multiset any day of the week, it's blatantly obvious what 
they do.  Counter, what the heck? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 04:50:41 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 01:50:41 -0800
Subject: Comparing values of counter in python 3.3
In-Reply-To: <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
References: <7b7028b8-5de0-4a3a-a23b-2e19fe859955@googlegroups.com>
 <l8lmq6$6ps$1@dont-email.me>
 <905d6e7e-6748-42dd-8b63-d80a4d175914@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CABicbJJGdSZotoX_U=4dsivVL1-cjUH0r8Zs99qqUOUHk8_cLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 6:32 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 7:29:31 AM UTC+5:30, alex23 wrote:
>> > # Need to compare values of counter and reject in function/routine in value in counter2 is higher then value in counter1 for a current key
>
>>      [(k,Counter2[k]) for k in Counter2 - Counter1]
>
> Why not just?
>
> Counter2 - Counter1
>
> And if you want to uncounterify it then
> dict(Counter2 - Counter1)

Because you get different counts.

>>> c1 = Counter('ab')
>>> c2 = Counter('aab')
>>> c2 - c1
Counter({'a': 1})
>>> [(k, c2[k]) for k in c2 - c1]
[('a', 2)]

Counter subtraction is multiset subtraction, not set subtraction.

-- Devin


From marcinmltd at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:06:40 2013
From: marcinmltd at gmail.com (marcinmltd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:06:40 +0000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <6si4t0hdjeddqflqos0hd9tu.1386835600560@email.android.com>

Hello,

I'm big fan of multiprocessing module, but recently I started looking at threading in Python more closely and got couple of questions I hope You can help me with:

1. When I run two or more threads in my python process are they really run concurrently on mulicore machine?

2. Browsing through documentation it looks like python interpreter protects its sensitive states by using GIL. Can you guys list situations when this happens?

2. What would be general advice from python experts on when to use threadng and when switch to multliprocessing in python? Is the decision still influenced by how often we need to comunicate between the tasks as it's in C\C++?

thanks in advance for help!
Marcin


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From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:15:06 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:15:06 -0800
Subject: No subject
In-Reply-To: <6si4t0hdjeddqflqos0hd9tu.1386835600560@email.android.com>
References: <6si4t0hdjeddqflqos0hd9tu.1386835600560@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rV1wy6daceYwfZkzjxWNAS09hBX2EAhn-jera+=6nRag@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:06 AM, marcinmltd <marcinmltd at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm big fan of multiprocessing module, but recently I started looking at
> threading in Python more closely and got couple of questions I hope You can
> help me with:
>
> 1. When I run two or more threads in my python process are they really run
> concurrently on mulicore machine?
>
> 2. Browsing through documentation it looks like python interpreter protects
> its sensitive states by using GIL. Can you guys list situations when this
> happens?
>
> 2. What would be general advice from python experts on when to use threadng
> and when switch to multliprocessing in python? Is the decision still
> influenced by how often we need to comunicate between the tasks as it's in
> C\C++?

Jython and IronPython reportedly thread well generally.

CPython threads I/O-bound tasks well, but as soon as you introduce one
CPU-bound thread, the other threads start to have problems.  Pypy is
probably the same as CPython, at least until they get their STM
working well.

Multiprocessing can do CPU-bound and I/O-bound workloads, but starting
a new process takes longer than starting a new thread (especially on
Windows).  Inter-thread/process communication is likely slower on
multiprocessing than multithreading as well, but this is merely my
inference.

Note: CPython is what a lot of people call "Python"; CPython is a new
term for the original implementation to distinguish it from the other
implementations that exist today.


From marcinmltd at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:08:26 2013
From: marcinmltd at gmail.com (marcinmltd)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 08:08:26 +0000
Subject: Threading In  Python
Message-ID: <abwcw12b22bnt7r1atxo7jwn.1386835706094@email.android.com>

Adding subject to the message.




Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2

-------- Original message --------
From: marcinmltd <marcinmltd at gmail.com> 
Date:  
To: python-list at python.org 
Subject:  
 
Hello,

I'm big fan of multiprocessing module, but recently I started looking at threading in Python more closely and got couple of questions I hope You can help me with:

1. When I run two or more threads in my python process are they really run concurrently on mulicore machine?

2. Browsing through documentation it looks like python interpreter protects its sensitive states by using GIL. Can you guys list situations when this happens?

2. What would be general advice from python experts on when to use threadng and when switch to multliprocessing in python? Is the decision still influenced by how often we need to comunicate between the tasks as it's in C\C++?

thanks in advance for help!
Marcin


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From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:39:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:39:41 +1100
Subject: Threading In Python
In-Reply-To: <abwcw12b22bnt7r1atxo7jwn.1386835706094@email.android.com>
References: <abwcw12b22bnt7r1atxo7jwn.1386835706094@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoucwP2PEpPve-9xQ5SK+DG-t1ZmHE8gk4-3_G7QkB04A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM, marcinmltd <marcinmltd at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm big fan of multiprocessing module, but recently I started looking at
> threading in Python more closely and got couple of questions I hope You can
> help me with:

The first thing to note is that there are two completely separate concepts here:

1) Python is a language. It is defined by a set of specifications
covering syntax, semantics, etc, etc, etc.

2) CPython, Jython, IronPython, and PyPy are four implementations of
the Python language. (There are others, too, but those are the four
biggest.) They're all a bit different in how they behave.

Most likely, you're talking about CPython, which is the most
commonly-used implementation of Python. I'm going to discuss CPython
here, but be aware that the other Pythons may well (and in some cases
definitely DO) behave differently.

> 1. When I run two or more threads in my python process are they really run
> concurrently on mulicore machine?
>
> 2. Browsing through documentation it looks like python interpreter protects
> its sensitive states by using GIL. Can you guys list situations when this
> happens?

I'll answer these two together. Most likely the two threads will *not*
run concurrently, because CPython uses the Global Interpreter Lock
around all Python code execution. The GIL is released any time there's
going to be a long-running C-level call, especially something that
waits; so if your threads are spending most of their time, say, trying
to read from sockets, then there's no problem and the GIL won't get in
your way. There are a very VERY few CPU-bound operations that release
the GIL (some numpy calculations, I think, but I'm not familiar with
that library), but the general rule of thumb is that whenever the
CPU's busy, you own the GIL.

> 2. What would be general advice from python experts on when to use threadng
> and when switch to multliprocessing in python? Is the decision still
> influenced by how often we need to comunicate between the tasks as it's in
> C\C++?

Use threading when you're waiting for something else, and
multiprocessing when you need to exercise multiple CPU cores. Again,
that's just a rule of thumb, but it's close enough for a base
understanding of the difference.

Since I don't have real-world experience with any Python other than
CPython, I won't speak to those; but do expect that there'll be
differences. (I think, for instance, Jython's threading module is
backed by Java's threads, with all the advantages and disadvantages
that entails.) But the beauty of this mailing list is that someone
else will fill that in :)

ChrisA


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 03:41:51 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 01:41:51 -0700
Subject: Threading In Python
In-Reply-To: <abwcw12b22bnt7r1atxo7jwn.1386835706094@email.android.com>
References: <abwcw12b22bnt7r1atxo7jwn.1386835706094@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=Tmke5A+uzAoQugZwKrC=VJWLCMa5gXFpshdCnMgvwrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:08 AM, marcinmltd <marcinmltd at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adding subject to the message.
> Hello,
>
> I'm big fan of multiprocessing module, but recently I started looking at
> threading in Python more closely and got couple of questions I hope You can
> help me with:
>
> 1. When I run two or more threads in my python process are they really run
> concurrently on mulicore machine?

No.  The GIL allows the Python interpreter to run in only thread at a time.

> 2. Browsing through documentation it looks like python interpreter protects
> its sensitive states by using GIL. Can you guys list situations when this
> happens?

Any time Python code is being run, the GIL is held.  C extensions have
the option to release the GIL for long-running operations (e.g.
waiting on a network socket), but they are not permitted to work with
Python objects while the GIL is released.

> 2. What would be general advice from python experts on when to use threadng
> and when switch to multliprocessing in python? Is the decision still
> influenced by how often we need to comunicate between the tasks as it's in
> C\C++?

Generally speaking, use threading for programs that are IO-bound
(where there would be little concurrency anyway) and multiprocessing
for programs that are CPU-bound.  Communication between processes is
more expensive than communication between threads, so that could be an
important criterion.


From Chandru_Rajendran at infosys.com  Thu Dec 12 06:13:51 2013
From: Chandru_Rajendran at infosys.com (Chandru Rajendran)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:13:51 +0000
Subject: Pep8 in SetupTools
Message-ID: <F9D8DC52CB96E24D8C7AA5F8E9781E881E435A57@BLRKECMBX23.ad.infosys.com>

Hi all,

Please help me with running Pep8  using setuptools. Also help me how to Pep8 for files in a folder.

Thanks & regards,
Chandru



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From zondo42 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 08:25:48 2013
From: zondo42 at gmail.com (Glenn Hutchings)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 05:25:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pep8 in SetupTools
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3981.1386847210.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.3981.1386847210.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <10e699fe-0b87-4768-a6a9-a3b754c4fe97@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, 12 December 2013 11:13:51 UTC, Chandru Rajendran  wrote:

> Please help me with running Pep8 ?using setuptools. Also help me how to Pep8 for files in a folder.

The tool you're looking for is flake8.  It integrates with setuptools, so that you can run 'python setup.py flake8'.  More information here:

http://flake8.readthedocs.org/en/2.0/setuptools.html


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 08:54:43 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:54:43 +0000
Subject: Pep8 in SetupTools
In-Reply-To: <F9D8DC52CB96E24D8C7AA5F8E9781E881E435A57@BLRKECMBX23.ad.infosys.com>
References: <F9D8DC52CB96E24D8C7AA5F8E9781E881E435A57@BLRKECMBX23.ad.infosys.com>
Message-ID: <l8cf73$9lh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 11:13, Chandru Rajendran wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Please help me with running Pep8  using setuptools. Also help me how to
> Pep8 for files in a folder.

I don't understand what you're asking for.  Can you please rephrase your 
question.

>
> Thanks & regards,
> Chandru
>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Thu Dec 12 08:56:24 2013
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:56:24 +0000
Subject: Formatting text in a table with reportlab
Message-ID: <assp.00583b5efa.0461bcaefd6f42a5846f73486c833c67@exch.activenetwerx.com>

I sent off a msg to the reportlab list but didn't find an answer, hoping someone
here might have come across this...

I am generating a table to hold text oriented by the specification of the label
it gets printed on. I need to compress the vertical size of the table a little
more but the larger text in (1, 0) and (1, 1) as compared to the rest causes it
to migrate downwards away from the upper boundary of the cell that it's in.

Is there a better way to accomplish this or some way I can prevent the
behavior? I have tried adjusting with the rowHeight in Table() but for the
larger text in (1, 0) and (1, 1) to not migrate out of the cell, the overall
cell height has to be too large. The ('VALIGN', (1, 0), (1, 1), 'TOP') seems to
only have a minimal affect if the rowHeight is still larger than what I want
versus [None] for example.

        # Define table data.
        data = [
            ['foo', xxx, yyy, zzz, www],
            ['bar', ttt, uuu],
            ['\n'.join((iii, jjj, kkk))],
        ]

        # Define table dimensions.
        table = Table(
            data,
            [.625 * inch] + [None] * 4,
            [None] * 3
        )

        # Define table styles.
        table_style = [
            ('VALIGN', (0, 0), (-1, -1), 'BOTTOM'),
            ('VALIGN', (1, 0), (1, 1), 'TOP'),
            ('ALIGN', (0, 0), (0, 2), 'LEFT'),
            ('ALIGN', (1, 0), (1, 1), 'LEFT'),
            ('ALIGN', (2, 0), (2, 0), 'CENTER'),
            ('SPAN', (2, 1), (4, 1)),
            ('SPAN', (0, 2), (4, 2)),
            ('FONTSIZE', (0, 0), (0, 2), 10),
            ('TEXTFONT', (0, 0), (0, 2), 'Times'),
            ('FONTSIZE', (1, 0), (1, 1), 18),
            ('TEXTFONT', (1, 0), (1, 1), 'Times-Bold')
        ]

Thanks!
jlc



From stephen.boulet at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:45:17 2013
From: stephen.boulet at gmail.com (stephen.boulet at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 06:45:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: input() on python 2.7.5 vs 3.3.2
Message-ID: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>

Can someone explain? Thanks.

Python 3.3.2 (v3.3.2:d047928ae3f6, May 16 2013, 00:06:53) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> x = input()
Hello there
>>> print(x)
Hello there

Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> x = input()
Hello there
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "<string>", line 1
    Hello there
              ^
SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:53:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:53:34 +1100
Subject: input() on python 2.7.5 vs 3.3.2
In-Reply-To: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
References: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpSr1x+oo+HKAoLdEpzCzof1+SXHq-j1ntP-0OtFOEO6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 1:45 AM,  <stephen.boulet at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can someone explain? Thanks.
>
> Python 3.3.2 (v3.3.2:d047928ae3f6, May 16 2013, 00:06:53) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> x = input()
> Hello there
>>>> print(x)
> Hello there
>
> Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> x = input()
> Hello there
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "<string>", line 1
>     Hello there
>               ^
> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing

It's very simple: The input() function in Python 2.x is a very
dangerous one - it's equivalent to eval(input()) in Python 3. The
equivalent function in Python 2 is called raw_input. For safety and
compatibility, just do this at the beginning of your interactive
session or the top of your script:

input = raw_input

or, in a way that'll work in Python 3 as well, with no changes:

try:
    input = raw_input
except NameError:
    pass

After that, you can safely call input() and get back a string.

ChrisA


From amitsaha.in at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 09:56:09 2013
From: amitsaha.in at gmail.com (Amit Saha)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 00:56:09 +1000
Subject: input() on python 2.7.5 vs 3.3.2
In-Reply-To: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
References: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CANODV3mj84V9K8Tyvj65pYzbuuKvxOOfAoyQhNAGH9E84kPQ0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:45 AM,  <stephen.boulet at gmail.com> wrote:
> Can someone explain? Thanks.
>
> Python 3.3.2 (v3.3.2:d047928ae3f6, May 16 2013, 00:06:53) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> x = input()
> Hello there
>>>> print(x)
> Hello there

In Python 3, input() considers an input as a string and returns the
input as a string. This is the behavior of raw_input() in Python 2.

>
> Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> x = input()
> Hello there
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "<string>", line 1
>     Hello there
>               ^
> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing

In Python 2, input() expects valid Python as it's input. If you
provide your input as 'Hello there' (a  Python string), it won't
complain.

HTH,
Amit.


-- 
http://echorand.me


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 10:04:39 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:04:39 +0000
Subject: input() on python 2.7.5 vs 3.3.2
In-Reply-To: <CANODV3mj84V9K8Tyvj65pYzbuuKvxOOfAoyQhNAGH9E84kPQ0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
 <CANODV3mj84V9K8Tyvj65pYzbuuKvxOOfAoyQhNAGH9E84kPQ0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8cja6$uts$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 14:56, Amit Saha wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:45 AM,  <stephen.boulet at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can someone explain? Thanks.
>>
>> Python 3.3.2 (v3.3.2:d047928ae3f6, May 16 2013, 00:06:53) [MSC v.1600 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> x = input()
>> Hello there
>>>>> print(x)
>> Hello there
>
> In Python 3, input() considers an input as a string and returns the
> input as a string. This is the behavior of raw_input() in Python 2.
>
>>
>> Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>> x = input()
>> Hello there
>> Traceback (most recent call last):
>>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>>    File "<string>", line 1
>>      Hello there
>>                ^
>> SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing
>
> In Python 2, input() expects valid Python as it's input. If you
> provide your input as 'Hello there' (a  Python string), it won't
> complain.
>
> HTH,
> Amit.
>

I much prefer Chris Angelico's response "The input() function in Python 
2.x is a very dangerous one - it's equivalent to eval(input()) in Python 3."

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 10:17:52 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 02:17:52 +1100
Subject: input() on python 2.7.5 vs 3.3.2
In-Reply-To: <l8cja6$uts$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2ba69b81-99f9-40d6-a337-afb2f892ecff@googlegroups.com>
 <CANODV3mj84V9K8Tyvj65pYzbuuKvxOOfAoyQhNAGH9E84kPQ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8cja6$uts$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrK-Ph+9gs+dV8tqo2Fx3bFN0sRR+ferSMp9vo8BitPOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 2:04 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I much prefer Chris Angelico's response "The input() function in Python 2.x
> is a very dangerous one - it's equivalent to eval(input()) in Python 3."

Just to clarify: If you *want* eval, then you know you want it, and
you are (or should be) aware of its dangers. The problem, imo, is
hiding something as powerful and dangerous as code evaluation behind
the innocuous name "input". If I were coding a Python 2.x REPL, I
would probably write eval(raw_input()) rather than input(), just for
clarity.

But I'm more likely to just code for Python 3 anyway. :)

ChrisA


From amimobenja08 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 13:05:37 2013
From: amimobenja08 at gmail.com (Amimo Benja)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:05:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Script
Message-ID: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>

I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI

Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet, . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x. 

? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I don't know how to proceed.

Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist. Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.

* I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Thu Dec 12 13:35:23 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 10:35:23 -0800
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AA01EB.3040807@islandtraining.com>

On 12/12/2013 10:05 AM, Amimo Benja wrote:
> I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
> http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
>
> Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet, . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
>
> ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I don't know how to proceed.
>
> Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist. Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
>
> * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....

You haven't actually asked a question here.  You say you don't know how 
to proceed with "a project", but we don't know what that project is.  In 
fact, I can't even figure out if your trouble is with the script, or 
with using the script in this unknown project.

Also, if you repost, please include the script in the email, not as a 
pointer to somewhere else.


Gary Herron



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 12 13:55:29 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:55:29 -0500
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <52AA01EB.3040807@islandtraining.com>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
 <52AA01EB.3040807@islandtraining.com>
Message-ID: <l8d0qo$7bp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 1:35 PM, Gary Herron wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 10:05 AM, Amimo Benja wrote:
>> I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
>> http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
>>
>> Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet,
>> . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP
>> response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built
>> independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the
>> mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if
>> you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the
>> same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
>>
>> ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I
>> don't know how to proceed.
>>
>> Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat
>> yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def
>> __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist.
>> Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement
>> the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
>>
>> * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
>
> You haven't actually asked a question here.  You say you don't know how
> to proceed with "a project", but we don't know what that project is.  In
> fact, I can't even figure out if your trouble is with the script, or
> with using the script in this unknown project.
>
> Also, if you repost, please include the script in the email, not as a
> pointer to somewhere else.

And reduce the script to the minimum needed to reproduce the problem. 
The effort to do that may reveal the solution.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From amimobenja08 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 01:21:28 2013
From: amimobenja08 at gmail.com (Amimo Benja)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:21:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4011.1386874547.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
 <52AA01EB.3040807@islandtraining.com>
 <mailman.4011.1386874547.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <693c1535-9d6f-426c-8b8c-79bdf1dd7e9b@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:55:29 PM UTC+3, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 1:35 PM, Gary Herron wrote:
> 
> > On 12/12/2013 10:05 AM, Amimo Benja wrote:
> 
> >> I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
> 
> >> http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet,
> 
> >> . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP
> 
> >> response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built
> 
> >> independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the
> 
> >> mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if
> 
> >> you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the
> 
> >> same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I
> 
> >> don't know how to proceed.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat
> 
> >> yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def
> 
> >> __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist.
> 
> >> Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement
> 
> >> the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
> 
> >
> 
> > You haven't actually asked a question here.  You say you don't know how
> 
> > to proceed with "a project", but we don't know what that project is.  In
> 
> > fact, I can't even figure out if your trouble is with the script, or
> 
> > with using the script in this unknown project.
> 
> >
> 
> > Also, if you repost, please include the script in the email, not as a
> 
> > pointer to somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> And reduce the script to the minimum needed to reproduce the problem. 
> 
> The effort to do that may reveal the solution.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Terry Jan Reedy

Okay Terry


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 12 13:59:26 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:59:26 +0000
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AA078E.8090701@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 18:05, Amimo Benja wrote:
> I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
> http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
>
> Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet,
> . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP
> response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built
> independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However,
> the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so
> if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the
> same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
>
> ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and
> I don't know how to proceed.
>
> Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat
> yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have
> def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist.
> Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement
> the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
>
> * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
>
This line:

     recordTuple = AirBase.recordTupleBase

makes recordTuple refer to the same object as AirBase.recordTupleBase 
and AirBase.recordTupleBase is an attribute of the class AirBase itself.

You're re-using the same object. That's why it's being overwritten.


From amimobenja08 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 01:21:01 2013
From: amimobenja08 at gmail.com (Amimo Benja)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:21:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4008.1386873346.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4008.1386873346.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9fbff74e-5c5e-406c-b6ce-12dba738a697@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:35:23 PM UTC+3, Gary Herron wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 10:05 AM, Amimo Benja wrote:
> 
> > I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
> 
> > http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
> 
> >
> 
> > Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet, . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
> 
> >
> 
> > ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I don't know how to proceed.
> 
> >
> 
> > Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist. Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
> 
> >
> 
> > * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
> 
> 
> 
> You haven't actually asked a question here.  You say you don't know how 
> 
> to proceed with "a project", but we don't know what that project is.  In 
> 
> fact, I can't even figure out if your trouble is with the script, or 
> 
> with using the script in this unknown project.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, if you repost, please include the script in the email, not as a 
> 
> pointer to somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Herron

Okay Gary... I will put that into consideration when post another problem or solution.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 03:38:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:38:35 +0000
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <9fbff74e-5c5e-406c-b6ce-12dba738a697@googlegroups.com>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4008.1386873346.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9fbff74e-5c5e-406c-b6ce-12dba738a697@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8eh26$nbn$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 06:21, Amimo Benja wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:35:23 PM UTC+3, Gary Herron wrote:
>> On 12/12/2013 10:05 AM, Amimo Benja wrote:
>>
>>> I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
>>
>>> http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet, . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However, the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> ? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and I don't know how to proceed.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist. Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
>>
>>
>>
>> You haven't actually asked a question here.  You say you don't know how
>>
>> to proceed with "a project", but we don't know what that project is.  In
>>
>> fact, I can't even figure out if your trouble is with the script, or
>>
>> with using the script in this unknown project.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, if you repost, please include the script in the email, not as a
>>
>> pointer to somewhere else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gary Herron
>
> Okay Gary... I will put that into consideration when post another problem or solution.
>

Before you repost would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From amimobenja08 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 01:26:52 2013
From: amimobenja08 at gmail.com (Amimo Benja)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:26:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python Script
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4012.1386874770.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <89929063-4c26-4e97-8f28-c53f1c538d1d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4012.1386874770.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <189fb55d-f743-47d7-a591-8f3bc81c3ba3@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 9:59:26 PM UTC+3, MRAB wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 18:05, Amimo Benja wrote:
> 
> > I have an issue with a Python script that I will show as follows:
> 
> > http://codepad.org/G8Z2ConI
> 
> >
> 
> > Assume that you have three (well defined) classes: AirBase and VmNet,
> 
> > . VmNet has got a method that is called recursively each time an HTTP
> 
> > response is received. The variable recordTuple needs to be built
> 
> > independently for each instance of VmNet that is created. However,
> 
> > the mentioned variable is being overwritten across every instance, so
> 
> > if you try to get it from vmnet_instance_y, you would get exactly the
> 
> > same than retrieving it from vmnet_instance_x.
> 
> >
> 
> > ??? What is the code issue? I need to use this script in a project and
> 
> > I don't know how to proceed.
> 
> >
> 
> > Actually, the script aims to follow the principle don't repeat
> 
> > yourself (DRY). As you may notice, VmNet and AirBase does not have
> 
> > def __init__(self), so self.recordTupleBase does not probably exist.
> 
> > Additionally, many other subclasses, similar to VmNet, can implement
> 
> > the recursive method using that recordTupleBase.
> 
> >
> 
> > * I will gladly appreciate any help thanks....
> 
> >
> 
> This line:
> 
> 
> 
>      recordTuple = AirBase.recordTupleBase
> 
> 
> 
> makes recordTuple refer to the same object as AirBase.recordTupleBase 
> 
> and AirBase.recordTupleBase is an attribute of the class AirBase itself.
> 
> 
> 
> You're re-using the same object. That's why it's being overwritten.

Thanks MRAB... I appreciate...


From ricaraoz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 13:14:34 2013
From: ricaraoz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_Ar=E1oz?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:14:34 -0300
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
Message-ID: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>

I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per node.

Thanks



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 12 13:56:26 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:56:26 -0500
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 1:14 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?

Search tools, both for the web and on pypi.python.org, are your friend.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 16:01:50 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:01:50 +0000
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8d87t$29s$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 18:56, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 1:14 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
>> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>
> Search tools, both for the web and on pypi.python.org, are your friend.
>

stackoverflow is another useful site to search and see also 
http://kmike.ru/python-data-structures/.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ricaraoz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 17:01:56 2013
From: ricaraoz at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UmljYXJkbyBBcsOhb3o=?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:01:56 -0300
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <l8d87t$29s$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <l8d87t$29s$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52AA3254.2070007@gmail.com>

El 12/12/13 18:01, Mark Lawrence escribi?:
> On 12/12/2013 18:56, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> On 12/12/2013 1:14 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
>>> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>>
>> Search tools, both for the web and on pypi.python.org, are your friend.
>>
>
> stackoverflow is another useful site to search and see also
> http://kmike.ru/python-data-structures/.
>

Nice site, thanks. Unfortunately there are tries and all kind of search 
trees, but not simple unbalanced, multiple children trees.
Thanks.



From ricaraoz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 17:01:12 2013
From: ricaraoz at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?UmljYXJkbyBBcsOhb3o=?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:01:12 -0300
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52AA3228.8080000@gmail.com>

El 12/12/13 15:56, Terry Reedy escribi?:
> On 12/12/2013 1:14 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
>> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>
> Search tools, both for the web and on pypi.python.org, are your friend.
>

I thought it was obvious that I've already looked around.
I'm using treelib right now but as my post says I was wondering if there 
was "a good and known library". I wanted to gather the previous 
experience of members of the list.



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Dec 12 17:19:30 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:19:30 -0800
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <52AA3228.8080000@gmail.com>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d0sh$7bp$2@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AA3228.8080000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AA3672.2090103@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/12/2013 02:01 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
> El 12/12/13 15:56, Terry Reedy escribi?:
>> On 12/12/2013 1:14 PM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
>>> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>>
>> Search tools, both for the web and on pypi.python.org, are your friend.
>
> I thought it was obvious that I've already looked around.

Why would that be obvious from the one line you wrote?  Python values explicitness over implicitness, and so do many of 
its users.

In other words, tell us what you've done, don't assume we're mind readers. ;)  (Unfortunately, many before you have been 
too lazy to do any work themselves and just post one line questions -- so we're a bit leery of such postings.)


> I'm using treelib right now but as my post says I was wondering if there was "a good and known library". I wanted to
> gather the previous experience of members of the list.

Now that you've given some background you may get better answers.

--
~Ethan~


From neilc at norwich.edu  Thu Dec 12 14:26:57 2013
From: neilc at norwich.edu (Neil Cerutti)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:26:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-12, Ricardo Ar?oz <ricaraoz at gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
> Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per node.

Have you tried nested lists?

[[1, 2], [3, 4]

Can represent

     root
     /  \
  1-2    3-4

Python makes it very easy to manipulate such a structure. It
isn't clear that you need more than that yet.

-- 
Neil Cerutti



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 14:30:11 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:30:11 -0500
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
	<l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+zmfm67y8G4QRwW8+REMhSpNCcpfa-rr9ATiVdGKdzP+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu> wrote:

> On 2013-12-12, Ricardo Ar?oz <ricaraoz at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
> > Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per
> node.
>
> Have you tried nested lists?
>
> [[1, 2], [3, 4]
>

I think that was a type for this:

[[1, 2], [3, 4]]


>
> Can represent
>
>      root
>      /  \
>   1-2    3-4
>
> Python makes it very easy to manipulate such a structure. It
> isn't clear that you need more than that yet.
>
> --
> Neil Cerutti
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 12 14:38:10 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:38:10 +0000
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+zmfm67y8G4QRwW8+REMhSpNCcpfa-rr9ATiVdGKdzP+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>	<l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+zmfm67y8G4QRwW8+REMhSpNCcpfa-rr9ATiVdGKdzP+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AA10A2.4060302@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 19:30, Joel Goldstick wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu
> <mailto:neilc at norwich.edu>> wrote:
>
>     On 2013-12-12, Ricardo Ar?oz <ricaraoz at gmail.com
>     <mailto:ricaraoz at gmail.com>> wrote:
>      > I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>      > Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children
>     per node.
>
>     Have you tried nested lists?
>
>     [[1, 2], [3, 4]
>
> I think that was a type for this:
>
I think that was a typo for "typo". :-)

> [[1, 2], [3, 4]]
>
>
>     Can represent
>
>           root
>           /  \
>        1-2    3-4
>
>     Python makes it very easy to manipulate such a structure. It
>     isn't clear that you need more than that yet.
>



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 14:40:19 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:40:19 -0500
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <52AA10A2.4060302@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+zmfm67y8G4QRwW8+REMhSpNCcpfa-rr9ATiVdGKdzP+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <52AA10A2.4060302@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xHkHBxZXHKx0gZGGF8+E7h75P+kXLwA4Wt9h+VeD54kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:38 PM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:

> On 12/12/2013 19:30, Joel Goldstick wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 2:26 PM, Neil Cerutti <neilc at norwich.edu
>> <mailto:neilc at norwich.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>     On 2013-12-12, Ricardo Ar?oz <ricaraoz at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:ricaraoz at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>      > I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>>      > Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children
>>     per node.
>>
>>     Have you tried nested lists?
>>
>>     [[1, 2], [3, 4]
>>
>> I think that was a type for this:
>>
>>  I think that was a typo for "typo". :-)


OMG!   I saw that too!

>
>
>  [[1, 2], [3, 4]]
>>
>>
>>     Can represent
>>
>>           root
>>           /  \
>>        1-2    3-4
>>
>>     Python makes it very easy to manipulate such a structure. It
>>     isn't clear that you need more than that yet.
>>
>>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From ricaraoz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 17:01:32 2013
From: ricaraoz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_Ar=E1oz?=)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 19:01:32 -0300
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com> <l8d2m1$ql$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52AA323C.4090509@gmail.com>

El 12/12/13 16:26, Neil Cerutti escribi?:
> On 2013-12-12, Ricardo Ar?oz <ricaraoz at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
>> Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per node.
> Have you tried nested lists?
>
> [[1, 2], [3, 4]
>
> Can represent
>
>       root
>       /  \
>    1-2    3-4
>
> Python makes it very easy to manipulate such a structure. It
> isn't clear that you need more than that yet.
>

And what if "2" has a couple of children? And one of those children has 
children of it's own?
You see, I will be needing multiple levels and will need to know if a 
node is already there at some level, and be able to add a child to that 
node on the fly, and to be able to traverse the tree in different ways, 
so I would eventually develop a tree library which is what I'm looking for.



From torriem at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:13:27 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 14:13:27 -0700
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
References: <52A9FD0A.9080804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AA26F7.7080607@gmail.com>

On 12/12/2013 11:14 AM, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
> Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per node.

There are lots of types of tree structures that may or may not be
applicable to your problem.  And it depends on what kind of data you're
storing.  For example, I wrote a parser years ago (in C) that processed
BER-encoded structured data (sort of like binary xml).  Turned out that
the nested structure of BER-encoded data lends itself well to
"left-child, right-sibling" trees (and it happens to be binary, which
makes for easy traversal).

In any even Python's data primitives are powerful enough that you don't
need a library at all.  Just use Python's built-in primitives.  You can
do most tree structures with just list manipulation, without any class
overhead at all.

In fact in my case, my "left-child right sibling" trees are by
definition lists (think LISP car and cdr) or tuples.  The LISP-esque
nature of Python's data types always did make Python appeal to me.


From buchanae at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 16:05:45 2013
From: buchanae at gmail.com (buchanae at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:05:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4007.1386872086.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4007.1386872086.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <22c15efd-99d6-4af1-97e6-bd3f020dd55f@googlegroups.com>

I have this simple/stupid tree module:
https://github.com/abuchanan/bolts/blob/master/bolts/tree.py


On Thursday, December 12, 2013 10:14:34 AM UTC-8, Ricardo Ar?oz wrote:
> I need to use a tree structure. Is there a good and known library?
> 
> Doesn't have to be binary tree, I need to have multiple children per node.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks



From ricaraoz at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 17:55:10 2013
From: ricaraoz at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ricardo_Ar=E1oz?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 19:55:10 -0300
Subject: Tree library - multiple children
In-Reply-To: <22c15efd-99d6-4af1-97e6-bd3f020dd55f@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4007.1386872086.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <22c15efd-99d6-4af1-97e6-bd3f020dd55f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AB904E.7070800@gmail.com>

El 13/12/13 18:05, buchanae at gmail.com escribi?:
> I have this simple/stupid tree module:
> https://github.com/abuchanan/bolts/blob/master/bolts/tree.py
>
>

Thanks, I'll check it.




From fabiofz at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 13:37:43 2013
From: fabiofz at gmail.com (Fabio Zadrozny)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 16:37:43 -0200
Subject: PyDev 3.1.0 released
Message-ID: <CANXBEFrttw4L_612Mm7pkSKZvCojPLc_gZB9q6Q3kPJr-Ok3oQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

PyDev 3.1.0 has been released

Details on PyDev: http://pydev.org

Details on its development: http://pydev.blogspot.com

LiClipse (PyDev standalone with goodies such as support for Django
Templates, Mako Templates, Html, Javascript, etc):
http://brainwy.github.io/liclipse/


Release Highlights:
-------------------------------

* **Important**: PyDev requires Eclipse 3.8 or 4.3 onwards and Java 7! For
older versions, keep using PyDev 2.x.

* **Refactoring**:

    * It's now possible to rename a module (using F2 or drag and drop in
the pydev package explorer).

    * Multiple improvements on the rename refactoring.

* **Debugger**:

    * **Automatic code reloading on the debugger** (based on xreload).

        * When a file is changed and a debug session is on, PyDev will
automatically reload it (based on xreload).

        * View
https://github.com/fabioz/Pydev/blob/development/plugins/org.python.pydev/pysrc/pydevd_reload.pyfor
caveats/limitations.

    * **Get referrers on debug**

        * Right-click expression or variable in debugger and select 'Get
Referrers'

        * Note: may not work on some Python variants as it needs access to
the gc module.

    * **Stackless python** is now supported in the debugger, showing all
the suspended tasklets in the stack view.

    * Automatically force focus to Eclipse on breakpoint hit (Enable in
prefereces > pydev > debug).

    * The remote debugger can be left 'always on' (Enable in prefereces >
pydev > debug).

    * If there's an exception while evaluating a conditional breakpoint the
thread is suspended and the issue reported.

    * Option to skip caught exceptions thrown and handled in the same
context.

    * A comment with @IgnoreException can be added to lines where an
exception is thrown to have that exception ignored by the debugger when
caught exceptions support is turned on.

    * Improved visualization of frame objects.

    * Bug-fixes on Jython debugging.

* **Unittest**:

    * Django: The default PyDev unittest runner can now run Django tests
properly

    * Selecting a unit-test method in the editor and **right-click > run as
unit-test** will run only the selected unit-test.

    * **Ctrl+F9** with test selected will pre-select only that test to run
in unit-test.


* **General**:

    * Improvements on search for references (Ctrl+Shift+G).

    * Fixed some racing conditions related to the plugin startup.

    * Organize imports has option to add from imports before other imports.

    * Improved connection to shell that does code-completion.

    * Properly supporting creation of shell inside a Jython VM in Eclipse.


What is PyDev?
---------------------------

PyDev is a plugin that enables users to use Eclipse for Python, Jython and
IronPython development -- making Eclipse a first class Python IDE -- It
comes with many goodies such as code completion, syntax highlighting,
syntax analysis, refactor, debug and many others.


Cheers,

--
Fabio Zadrozny
------------------------------------------------------
Software Developer

LiClipse
http://brainwy.github.io/liclipse

PyDev - Python Development Environment for Eclipse
http://pydev.org
http://pydev.blogspot.com
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From demianbrecht at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 14:26:45 2013
From: demianbrecht at gmail.com (Demian Brecht)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 11:26:45 -0800
Subject: ABC hackery
Message-ID: <CAE+T62YhtAxZ6nSBzzPjyVw+e8dzgyVUEjbPj_QM2R4urq7hPw@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all,

Thought I'd share some fun I had some time ago when digging into abcs
and metaclasses: https://gist.github.com/demianbrecht/6944269. The
implementation piggy backs off of abcs to achieve "class A should look
like class B" type functionality without using inheritance.

Not recommended for anything outside of POC :)

-- 
Demian Brecht
http://demianbrecht.github.com


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 14:36:03 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 06:36:03 +1100
Subject: ABC hackery
In-Reply-To: <CAE+T62YhtAxZ6nSBzzPjyVw+e8dzgyVUEjbPj_QM2R4urq7hPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE+T62YhtAxZ6nSBzzPjyVw+e8dzgyVUEjbPj_QM2R4urq7hPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoay8ZmDhTHbVpZ1_SJncZA-Rkg2m_-XYD96LFmPv+rkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Demian Brecht <demianbrecht at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not recommended for anything outside of POC :)

I love that kind of code :)

ChrisA


From tunacubes at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 15:45:29 2013
From: tunacubes at gmail.com (Matt Graves)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:45:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Downloading file
Message-ID: <38c79209-0d75-4360-b0c3-28ab1bd74e61@googlegroups.com>

I have direct links to a number of csv files to download. Copying and pasting it to my browser would take too long, how would i go to this site for example and get the file? Right when you go to the site the download should start

www.example.com/files/document.csv


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 12 17:47:29 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:47:29 +0000
Subject: Downloading file
In-Reply-To: <38c79209-0d75-4360-b0c3-28ab1bd74e61@googlegroups.com>
References: <38c79209-0d75-4360-b0c3-28ab1bd74e61@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AA3D01.9040108@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 12/12/2013 20:45, Matt Graves wrote:
> I have direct links to a number of csv files to download. Copying and pasting it to my browser would take too long, how would i go to this site for example and get the file? Right when you go to the site the download should start
>
> www.example.com/files/document.csv
>
Have a look in the Python docs for "urlretrieve".


From spk265 at nyu.edu  Thu Dec 12 15:40:05 2013
From: spk265 at nyu.edu (Shyam Parimal Katti)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 15:40:05 -0500
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
Message-ID: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I have a list of sql queries, some which are split across multiple list
elements e.x.
['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1 int);',
'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']

A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql query.
So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql queries:
['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);',
'select col1 from sample_test;']

Here is the code that does that:

sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1
int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
pure_sqls = []
query_holder= ''
for each_line in sample:
    query_holder += each_line
    if query_holder.endswith(';'):
        pure_sqls.append(query_holder)
        query_holder = ''


Is there a way to do this by eliminating explicit creation of new
list(pure_sqls) and a temporary variable(query_holder)? Using list
comprehension? Though I don't want to put the shorter version in
production(if it is difficult to understand), I am looking if this can be
done with list comprehension since I am trying to learn list comprehension
by using it in such scenarios.
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:46:56 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:46:56 +1100
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpDAs=XNu1Wqs9z2zmr_VWJsP4UR6pXhmDv+qG3a7X7NA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Shyam Parimal Katti <spk265 at nyu.edu> wrote:
> A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql query.
> So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql queries:
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);', 'select
> col1 from sample_test;']

Hmm. Just to clarify, does a semicolon _anywhere_ in the string
terminate the query? If so, you have a problem of parsing, and the
best thing to do is to enable multi-query processing on your database
connection and send them all across. (You'd have to skip any
semicolons inside quoted strings, for instance.) Your current code
depends on the semi being at the end of one of the strings, which is a
much safer proposition.

If you really mean to split it anywhere, the easiest is to simply join
the whole lot and then split on the semi:

sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test',
'(col1 int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
pure_sqls = ''.join(sample).split(';')[:-1]

Note that the last element from the split is NOT a valid query. If
all's well, it should be an empty string (as it will be in this
sample), but if it's not empty, it's a partial query. I don't know
what you want to do with those; your code above will simply ignore
them, so I've done the same here, applying the "trim off the last
element" smiley operator [:-1] before assigning to pure_sqls.

Parenthesis: I just asked the members of Threshold RPG what they
thought [:-1] meant. 15 seconds after I asked, three responses came in
almost simultaneously.

Zeala: pothead smoking a roach
Claudas: fallen jaw?
Tharl: constipated, but happy.

I don't know what that means for the OP's code. Somehow it doesn't
seem a good omen. End parenthesis.

For what you're doing, a list comp isn't really appropriate. Broadly,
a list comp should be creating zero or one elements from each element
of the source list; what you're trying to do here is stitching things
together, which requires state. You can't do that with a list comp.
The best way is probably what you already have, but if you'd like it
to be shorter, you need simply invent a split marker that can't
possibly exist in your queries, and use that. Let's suppose "\0" can't
ever occur (that's likely, given that you're working with SQL).

sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test',
'(col1 int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
pure_sqls = [s.replace('\0','') for s in
'\0'.join(sample+['']).split(';\0') if s!='']

Assuming the exact sequence ";\0" never comes up in your text, this
will work perfectly. You could change out the replace call to put a
delimiter in, if that made sense:
pure_sqls = [s.replace('\0',' ') for s in
'\0'.join(sample+['']).split(';\0') if s!='']

This is also a reasonable example of a filtered list comp, as it'll
suppress any blank entries in the result. Whether this is better or
worse than trimming off the last unit depends on how you want to treat
text after the last semicolon.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 16:55:55 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 21:55:55 +0000
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8dbda$77c$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 20:40, Shyam Parimal Katti wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a list of sql queries, some which are split across multiple list
> elements e.x.
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1 int);',
> 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
>
> A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql
> query. So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql
> queries:
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);',
> 'select col1 from sample_test;']
>
> Here is the code that does that:
>
> sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1
> int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
> pure_sqls = []
> query_holder= ''
> for each_line in sample:
>      query_holder += each_line
>      if query_holder.endswith(';'):
>          pure_sqls.append(query_holder)
>          query_holder = ''
>
>
> Is there a way to do this by eliminating explicit creation of new
> list(pure_sqls) and a temporary variable(query_holder)? Using list
> comprehension? Though I don't want to put the shorter version in
> production(if it is difficult to understand), I am looking if this can
> be done with list comprehension since I am trying to learn list
> comprehension by using it in such scenarios.
>

I don't think this can be done with a list comprehension.  As you appear 
to have a perfectly good piece of code, if it ain't broke, don't fix it 
:)  Maybe change one line.

if query_holder[-1] == ';':

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 17:03:53 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:03:53 +1100
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrPDJ9JKh6yt=rWPydDQ14-U7FUdbksF3W3V3YkK=uB_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 7:40 AM, Shyam Parimal Katti <spk265 at nyu.edu> wrote:
> sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1
> int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
> pure_sqls = []
> query_holder= ''
> for each_line in sample:
>     query_holder += each_line
>     if query_holder.endswith(';'):
>         pure_sqls.append(query_holder)
>         query_holder = ''

By the way, side point. It's generally considered good programming
practice to use shorter names for short-lived variables and longer
names for things that hang around. I'd spell this slightly
differently:

sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test',
'(col1 int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
pure_sqls = []
cur = ''
for line in sample:
    cur += line
    if cur.endswith(';'):  # or line.endswith, or line[-1]==';'
        pure_sqls.append(cur)
        cur = ''

The short one-token names go with the short usage; the longer name
pure_sqls outlives them. Makes it easier to figure out what's
important and what's intermediate. The name 'cur' there is debatable;
I use it all over the place as a generic accumulator for the "current"
whatever I'm working with, you might prefer to use "query" or even
"q", take your pick.

Makes no difference to the code, but might make it easier for someone
to glance over your code and figure out what it's doing.

ChrisA


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Thu Dec 12 17:35:45 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:35:45 +1100
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w38lxlmta.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Shyam Parimal Katti <spk265 at nyu.edu> writes:

> A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql query.
> So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql queries:
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);',
> 'select col1 from sample_test;']

I presume these strings are split from lines of input. If so, you would
be better advised to use an SQL parsing library in the first place
<URL:https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sqlparse/>, to get distinct SQL
statements from a text stream.

-- 
 \       ?We must find our way to a time when faith, without evidence, |
  `\    disgraces anyone who would claim it.? ?Sam Harris, _The End of |
_o__)                                                     Faith_, 2004 |
Ben Finney



From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Dec 13 04:43:37 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:43:37 +0100
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8ekr1$51v$1@ger.gmane.org>

Shyam Parimal Katti wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I have a list of sql queries, some which are split across multiple list
> elements e.x.
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1 int);',
> 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
> 
> A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql
> query. So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql
> queries:
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);',
> 'select col1 from sample_test;']
> 
> Here is the code that does that:
> 
> sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1
> int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
> pure_sqls = []
> query_holder= ''
> for each_line in sample:
>     query_holder += each_line
>     if query_holder.endswith(';'):
>         pure_sqls.append(query_holder)
>         query_holder = ''
> 
> 
> Is there a way to do this by eliminating explicit creation of new
> list(pure_sqls) and a temporary variable(query_holder)? Using list
> comprehension? Though I don't want to put the shorter version in
> production(if it is difficult to understand), I am looking if this can be
> done with list comprehension since I am trying to learn list comprehension
> by using it in such scenarios.

Yours is the sane approach, but it may be fun to try to understand the 
following evil hacks ;)

>>> [sql.replace("\0", " ") + ";" for sql in "\0".join(sample + 
[""]).split(";\0") if sql]
['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);', 'select 
col1 from  sample_test;']


>>> from itertools import groupby
>>> def key(x, group=[0]):
...     try:
...             return group[0]
...     finally:
...             group[0] += x.endswith(";")
... 
>>> [" ".join(group) for _, group in groupby(sample, key)]
['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);', 'select 
col1 from  sample_test;']




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 05:07:17 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:07:17 +0000
Subject: Code suggestion - List comprehension
In-Reply-To: <l8ekr1$51v$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CALVX-oZZoLzxF5F5-pWwCnGxv1pnHWqxf7-3AP2mE9OEdAcXKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8ekr1$51v$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8em8g$hjt$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 09:43, Peter Otten wrote:
> Shyam Parimal Katti wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have a list of sql queries, some which are split across multiple list
>> elements e.x.
>> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1 int);',
>> 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
>>
>> A semi-colon in the string value  indicates the termination of a sql
>> query. So the expected out come is a conversion to a list of valid sql
>> queries:
>> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);',
>> 'select col1 from sample_test;']
>>
>> Here is the code that does that:
>>
>> sample = ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test', '(col1
>> int);', 'select col1 from', ' sample_test;']
>> pure_sqls = []
>> query_holder= ''
>> for each_line in sample:
>>      query_holder += each_line
>>      if query_holder.endswith(';'):
>>          pure_sqls.append(query_holder)
>>          query_holder = ''
>>
>>
>> Is there a way to do this by eliminating explicit creation of new
>> list(pure_sqls) and a temporary variable(query_holder)? Using list
>> comprehension? Though I don't want to put the shorter version in
>> production(if it is difficult to understand), I am looking if this can be
>> done with list comprehension since I am trying to learn list comprehension
>> by using it in such scenarios.
>
> Yours is the sane approach, but it may be fun to try to understand the
> following evil hacks ;)
>
>>>> [sql.replace("\0", " ") + ";" for sql in "\0".join(sample +
> [""]).split(";\0") if sql]
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);', 'select
> col1 from  sample_test;']
>
>
>>>> from itertools import groupby
>>>> def key(x, group=[0]):
> ...     try:
> ...             return group[0]
> ...     finally:
> ...             group[0] += x.endswith(";")
> ...
>>>> [" ".join(group) for _, group in groupby(sample, key)]
> ['drop table sample_table;', 'create table sample_test (col1 int);', 'select
> col1 from  sample_test;']
>
>

Evil?  Bring back the death penalty for code like the above, that's what 
I say :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tunacubes at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 16:43:50 2013
From: tunacubes at gmail.com (Matt Graves)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 13:43:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Downloading multiple files based on info extracted from CSV
Message-ID: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>

I have a CSV file containing a bunch of URLs I have to download a file from for clients (Column 7) and the clients names (Column 0) I tried making a script to go down the .csv file and just download each file from column 7, and save the file as [clientname].csv

I am relatively new to python, so this may be way off but?






import urllib 
import csv
urls = []
clientname = []

###This will set column 7 to be a list of urls
with open('clients.csv', 'r') as f:
    reader = csv.reader(f)
    for column in reader:
        urls.append(column[7])

###And this will set column 0 as a list of client names
with open('clients.csv', 'r') as g:
    reader = csv.reader(g)
    for column in reader:
        clientname.append(column[0])

###This SHOULD plug in the URL for F, and the client name for G.
def downloadFile(urls, clientname):
    urllib.urlretrieve(f, "%g.csv") % clientname


downloadFile(f,g)



When I run it, I get : AttributeError: 'file' object has no attribute 'strip'


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 12 17:19:32 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:19:32 +0000
Subject: Downloading multiple files based on info extracted from CSV
In-Reply-To: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
References: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8dcpk$mjm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 21:43, Matt Graves wrote:
> I have a CSV file containing a bunch of URLs I have to download a file from for clients (Column 7) and the clients names (Column 0) I tried making a script to go down the .csv file and just download each file from column 7, and save the file as [clientname].csv
>
> I am relatively new to python, so this may be way off but?
>
> import urllib
> import csv
> urls = []
> clientname = []

I assume clientnames.

>
> ###This will set column 7 to be a list of urls
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as f:
>      reader = csv.reader(f)
>      for column in reader:
>          urls.append(column[7])
>
> ###And this will set column 0 as a list of client names
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as g:
>      reader = csv.reader(g)
>      for column in reader:
>          clientname.append(column[0])

You could do the above in one hit.

with open('clients.csv', 'r') as f:
      reader = csv.reader(f)
      for row in reader:
          urls.append(row[7])
          clientnames.append(row[0])

Note that you're reading rows, not columns.

>
> ###This SHOULD plug in the URL for F, and the client name for G.

What makes you think this, f and g are file handles?

> def downloadFile(urls, clientname):
>      urllib.urlretrieve(f, "%g.csv") % clientname
>

If you want one file at a time you'd want url, clientname.

>
> downloadFile(f,g)

I think you want something like.

for url, clientname in zip(urls, clientnames):
     downloadFile(url, clientname)

>
> When I run it, I get : AttributeError: 'file' object has no attribute 'strip'
>

When you get a traceback like this please cut and paste all it of, not 
just the last line.  Here it seems likely that your call to downloadFile 
doesn't like you passing in the file handle as I've explained above (I 
hope :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 17:20:59 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:20:59 +1100
Subject: Downloading multiple files based on info extracted from CSV
In-Reply-To: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
References: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmofKMMP+0+UGwue6s4x6KOnN3bVshsN+Js+WErgfG1E3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Matt Graves <tunacubes at gmail.com> wrote:
> ###This SHOULD plug in the URL for F, and the client name for G.
> def downloadFile(urls, clientname):
>     urllib.urlretrieve(f, "%g.csv") % clientname
>
> downloadFile(f,g)
>
> When I run it, I get : AttributeError: 'file' object has no attribute 'strip'

When showing errors like this, you really need to copy and paste.
Fortunately, I can see where the problem is, here. You're referencing
the file object still in f, which is now a closed file object, instead
of the parameter urls.

But you're also passing f and g as parameters, instead of urls and
clientname. In fact, the downloadFile function isn't really achieving
much; you'd do better to simply inline its code into the main routine
and save yourself the hassle.

While you're at it, there are two more problems in that line of code.
Firstly, you're going to save everything into a file called "%g.csv",
and then try to modulo the return value of urlretrieve with the
clientname; I think you want the close parens at the very end of that
line. And secondly, %g is a floating-point encoder - you want %s here,
or simply use string concatenation:

urllib.urlretrieve(urls, clientname + ".csv")

Except that those are your lists, so that won't work without another
change. We'll fix that later...

> ###This will set column 7 to be a list of urls
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as f:
>     reader = csv.reader(f)
>     for column in reader:
>         urls.append(column[7])
>
> ###And this will set column 0 as a list of client names
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as g:
>     reader = csv.reader(g)
>     for column in reader:
>         clientname.append(column[0])

You're reading the file twice. There's no reason to do that; you can
read both columns at once. (By the way, what you're iterating over is
actually rows; for each row that comes out of the reader, do something
with one element from it. So calling it "column" is a bit confusing.)
So now we come to a choice. Question: Is it okay to hold the CSV file
open while you do the downloading? If it is, you can simplify the code
way way down:

import urllib
import csv

# You actually could get away with not using a with
# block here, but may as well keep it for best practice
with open('clients.csv') as f:
    for client in csv.reader(f):
        urllib.urlretrieve(client[7], client[0] + ".csv")

Yep, that's it! That's all you need. But retrieving all that might
take a long time, so it might be better to do all your CSV reading
first and only *then* start downloading. In that case, I'd make a
single list of tuples:

import urllib
import csv

clients = []
with open('clients.csv') as f:
    for client in csv.reader(f):
        clients.append((client[7], client[0] + ".csv"))

for client in clients:
    urllib.urlretrieve(client[0], client[1])

And since the "iterate and append to a new list" idiom is so common,
it can be simplified down to a list comprehension; and since "call
this function with this tuple of arguments" is so common, it has its
own syntax. So the code looks like this:

import urllib
import csv

with open('clients.csv') as f:
    clients = [client[7], client[0]+".csv" for client in csv.reader(f)]

for client in clients:
    urllib.urlretrieve(*client)

Again, it's really that simple! :)

Enjoy!

ChrisA


From gordon at panix.com  Thu Dec 12 17:21:46 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:21:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Downloading multiple files based on info extracted from CSV
References: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8dctq$gb8$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5 at googlegroups.com> Matt Graves <tunacubes at gmail.com> writes:

> import urllib
> import csv
> urls = []
> clientname = []

> ###This will set column 7 to be a list of urls
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as f:
>     reader = csv.reader(f)
>     for column in reader:
>         urls.append(column[7])

> ###And this will set column 0 as a list of client names
> with open('clients.csv', 'r') as g:
>     reader = csv.reader(g)
>     for column in reader:
>         clientname.append(column[0])

> ###This SHOULD plug in the URL for F, and the client name for G.
> def downloadFile(urls, clientname):
>     urllib.urlretrieve(f, "%g.csv") % clientname

> downloadFile(f,g)

> When I run it, I get : AttributeError: 'file' object has no attribute
> 'strip'

I think you're passing the wrong arguments to downloadFile().  You're
calling downloadFile(f, g), but f and g are file objects.  Don't you want
to pass urls and clientname instead?

Even if the correct arguments are passed to downloadFile, I think you're
using them incorrectly.  You don't even use the urls argument, and
clientname is supposed to be a list, so why aren't you looping through
it?

You aren't using string interpolation correctly on the call to urlretrieve.
Assuming your intent was to build a string and pass it as the second
argument, you have the close-parenthesis in the wrong place.  The call
should look like this:

    urllib.urlretrieve(f, "%g.csv" % clientname)

"%g" returns a floating-point value.  Did you mean "%s" instead?)

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From tunacubes at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 09:17:47 2013
From: tunacubes at gmail.com (Matt Graves)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:17:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Downloading multiple files based on info extracted from CSV
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4037.1386886869.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <88346903-2af8-48cd-9829-37cedb717ae5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4037.1386886869.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1148ee9d-8439-4856-ab93-5b998845b7cc@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 5:20:59 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:

> import urllib
> 
> import csv
> 
> 
> 
> # You actually could get away with not using a with
> 
> # block here, but may as well keep it for best practice
> 
> with open('clients.csv') as f:
> 
>     for client in csv.reader(f):
> 
>         urllib.urlretrieve(client[7], client[0] + ".csv")
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that's it! That's all you need. 


Worked perfect. Thank you!


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Thu Dec 12 20:01:58 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:01:58 -0700
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
Message-ID: <CALyJZZXNDuBBgG0Mw_BvajzbfLk4QbADAjG+z_xAVG9Q75sUYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email it
using pythons SMTP server.
http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good examples.

Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.

Vincent Davis
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From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 11:40:28 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:40:28 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:

> I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email it
> using pythons SMTP server.

You don't send mail using an SMTP server.  You receive mail using an
SMTP server.

> http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
> The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good examples.
>
> Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
> server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.

Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
From: Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid>
Subject: Re: Using pythons smtp server
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list at python.org>
Followup-To:

On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:

> I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email
> it using pythons SMTP server.

You don't send mail using an SMTP server.  You receive mail using an 
SMTP server.  You send mail using an SMTP client.

> http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
> The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good examples.
>
> Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
> server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.

https://www.google.com/search?q=python+send+email+smtp

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! The PINK SOCKS were
                                  at               ORIGINALLY from 1952!!
                              gmail.com            But they went to MARS
                                                   around 1953!!


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Fri Dec 13 12:13:18 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:13:18 -0700
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> "You don't send mail using an SMTP server.  You receive mail using an
> SMTP server.
> ?"?
>

Um maybe, I guess it is a matter of perspective.

Let me rephrase my question. ??I want to send an email using python but do
not want to use an external service. Does python have the ability to send
emails without installing additional software or using an external
server/service?
Maybe I am wrong, I thought examples like s = smtplib.SMTP('localhost')
?? are using a local(outside of python) smtp server, like postfix.




Vincent Davis
720-301-3003


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid>wrote:

> On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:
>
> > I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email it
> > using pythons SMTP server.
>
> You don't send mail using an SMTP server.  You receive mail using an
> SMTP server.
>
> > http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
> > The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good
> examples.
> >
> > Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
> > server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.
>
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
> From: Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid>
> Subject: Re: Using pythons smtp server
> References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list at python.org>
> Followup-To:
>
> On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:
>
> > I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email
> > it using pythons SMTP server.
>
> You don't send mail using an SMTP server.  You receive mail using an
> SMTP server.  You send mail using an SMTP client.
>
> > http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
> > The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good
> examples.
> >
> > Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
> > server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=python+send+email+smtp
>
> --
> Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! The PINK SOCKS were
>                                   at               ORIGINALLY from 1952!!
>                               gmail.com            But they went to MARS
>                                                    around 1953!!
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 13:15:55 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:15:55 +1100
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:13 AM, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:
> Let me rephrase my question. I want to send an email using python but do not
> want to use an external service. Does python have the ability to send emails
> without installing additional software or using an external server/service?

Any SMTP server you install has to do one of three things with the
mail you give it:

1) Accept it locally. Presumably the wrong thing to do here.
2) Deliver it to the authoritative SMTP server for the domain.
3) Deliver it to an intermediate server.

(Edit: Your next mail shows that you understand that, as looking up
the MX record is what I was going to say here.)

So if you want to avoid using an external intermediate server, you
need to find and talk to the authoritative server. Now, this is where
another big consideration comes in. What envelope From address are you
going to use? Is your own IP address allowed to send mail for that
domain? If not, you may be forced to use the legitimate server for
that domain. There are other concerns, too; if you don't have a nice
name to announce in the HELO, you might find your mail treated as
spam. But if you deal with all that, then yes, the only thing you need
to do is look up the MX record and pick the best server. (And then
deal with other concerns like coping with that one being down, which
is the advantage of having a local mail queue. But sometimes that
doesn't matter, like if you're sending to yourself for notifications.)

ChrisA


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Fri Dec 13 13:27:00 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:27:00 -0700
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALyJZZUukDmyzYWd1ZgJRW7Zf0pS=V1dF6Ker9=WP9pVuLjnNg@mail.gmail.com>

Grant, Chris
Thanks !!!
I guess in the end this is a bad idea, (for my purposes) I should just use
my gmail account smtp server.

Vincent Davis
720-301-3003


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:13 AM, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net>
> wrote:
> > Let me rephrase my question. I want to send an email using python but do
> not
> > want to use an external service. Does python have the ability to send
> emails
> > without installing additional software or using an external
> server/service?
>
> Any SMTP server you install has to do one of three things with the
> mail you give it:
>
> 1) Accept it locally. Presumably the wrong thing to do here.
> 2) Deliver it to the authoritative SMTP server for the domain.
> 3) Deliver it to an intermediate server.
>
> (Edit: Your next mail shows that you understand that, as looking up
> the MX record is what I was going to say here.)
>
> So if you want to avoid using an external intermediate server, you
> need to find and talk to the authoritative server. Now, this is where
> another big consideration comes in. What envelope From address are you
> going to use? Is your own IP address allowed to send mail for that
> domain? If not, you may be forced to use the legitimate server for
> that domain. There are other concerns, too; if you don't have a nice
> name to announce in the HELO, you might find your mail treated as
> spam. But if you deal with all that, then yes, the only thing you need
> to do is look up the MX record and pick the best server. (And then
> deal with other concerns like coping with that one being down, which
> is the advantage of having a local mail queue. But sometimes that
> doesn't matter, like if you're sending to yourself for notifications.)
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 13:29:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 05:29:57 +1100
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <CALyJZZUukDmyzYWd1ZgJRW7Zf0pS=V1dF6Ker9=WP9pVuLjnNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALyJZZUukDmyzYWd1ZgJRW7Zf0pS=V1dF6Ker9=WP9pVuLjnNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoE8Rz09owDv0TAQDn7LEuN6Xt_Wxe-pjSHh=ahgMndwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:27 AM, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:
> Grant, Chris
> Thanks !!!
> I guess in the end this is a bad idea, (for my purposes) I should just use
> my gmail account smtp server.

If you're sending from gmail, use whatever gmail specifies for
sending. Otherwise your mail will be seen as spoofed.

The converse of this is that, in my opinion, *every* domain should
have an SPF record and *every* mail server should check them. That
would eliminate a huge slab of forged mail, and it'd prevent some
stupid web email forms from doing the wrong thing and only finding out
that it's wrong years later.

ChrisA


From irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl  Sat Dec 14 10:48:00 2013
From: irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:48:00 +0100
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4103.1386982019.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALyJZZUukDmyzYWd1ZgJRW7Zf0pS=V1dF6Ker9=WP9pVuLjnNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4103.1386982019.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ac7db0$0$2975$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

On 14-12-2013 1:46, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> 	About then, I discovered the first two significant books on Python at
> Computer Literacy, and that an Amiga binary was available (Python 1.4, I
> think -- thanks, Irmin).

You're welcome, but my name is spelled Irmen, with an 'e' ;-)

Cheers
Irmen




From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 15:33:38 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 20:33:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
References: <mailman.4046.1386908855.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8fd9s$ssb$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <CALyJZZU5WfT42982yZTFGJ1zy1Q4xzdSrXs0h9wPskdYuug-wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqY3k4d3tsYG7RoiHWTt8o9J+c8KzG=LYSeuBQN0pKbrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4091.1386959243.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8fqv2$nsl$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:
> Grant, Chris
> Thanks !!!

> I guess in the end this is a bad idea, (for my purposes) I should just use
> my gmail account smtp server.

If you're going to claim the mail is from <somebody>@gmail.com, then
yes you should definitly send it via Gmail's SMTP server.  Doing
anything else is going to be a long, losing battle involving you
learning more about SMTP and e-mail headers than you probably want to.

If you've got your own domain (which you're using as the "from"
address), a static IP, and your own MX record and corresponding SMTP
server, you should be able to set things up to send mail directly.

Many years ago (like 20), I used to configure my home Linux boxes to
send mail directly to the destination SMTP server while claiming to be
from "grante@<my-isp's-name>.com".  At first it worked fine that way.
Then about about 12-15 years ago, I started having problems with some
servers refusing my mail.  I had a static IP address with a real,
official hostname, so I set up an MX record for that hostname, and
made sure my handshaking configuration was using a hostname that
mapped back to my static IP address.  That helped for a while, but
SMTP servers continued to get more and more paranoid.  Some SMTP
servers won't accept mail from an IP if they've determined is a
"residential" IP address even if you do have a domain that matches the
"from" address, an MX record, and everything else.

Eventually, I just gave up and started routing everything through the
"official" SMTP server associated with the e-mail address from which I
wanted to send the mail.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm having a MID-WEEK
                                  at               CRISIS!
                              gmail.com            


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Fri Dec 13 12:44:15 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:44:15 -0700
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
In-Reply-To: <kegma9pder3vv43f7jhsut4ghvqdg6527h@4ax.com>
References: <CALyJZZXNDuBBgG0Mw_BvajzbfLk4QbADAjG+z_xAVG9Q75sUYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <kegma9pder3vv43f7jhsut4ghvqdg6527h@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CALyJZZUyPU8zH3iMAiWcrSK3p_76tPdfBHy7Q80fmWdZoCrDpA@mail.gmail.com>

Obviously I don't really know how this works. I have used python to send
email using "my" smtp server (whatever that may be gmail, postfix..)
But I don't want to do that. After a little more research I think what I
need to do is lookup the MX address of the address I want to send the email
too.
Then submit the email to that address using smtplib.SMTP
?Do I have that right?
?


Vincent Davis
720-301-3003


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com>wrote:

> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:01:58 -0700, Vincent Davis
> <vincent at vincentdavis.net> declaimed the following:
>
> >I have an app that generates a file one a day and would like to email it
> >using pythons SMTP server.
> >http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer
> >The documentation is kinda sparse and I cant seem to find any good
> examples.
> >
> >Basically what I want to do; when my app runs it would initiate a SMTP
> >server, send the attachment and shutdown the SMTP after.
> >
>
>         I suspect you don't want the "server" per se -- that's more a unit
> for
> receiving SMTP mail (sure, you can start it, but then you have to send the
> email to IT so it can relay it to the next server in the line).
>
>         Look into the smtplib module (section 20.12 in the v2.7.2
> documentation) in order to send email TO a mail server
> --
>         Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
>     wlfraed at ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From invalid at invalid.invalid  Fri Dec 13 13:12:07 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:12:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Using pythons smtp server
References: <CALyJZZXNDuBBgG0Mw_BvajzbfLk4QbADAjG+z_xAVG9Q75sUYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <kegma9pder3vv43f7jhsut4ghvqdg6527h@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4088.1386957805.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8filn$9el$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-13, Vincent Davis <vincent at vincentdavis.net> wrote:

> Obviously I don't really know how this works. I have used python to
> send email using "my" smtp server (whatever that may be gmail,
> postfix..) But I don't want to do that. After a little more research
> I think what I need to do is lookup the MX address of the address I
> want to send the email too.
>
> Then submit the email to that address using smtplib.SMTP

Maybe.  In theory, that will work -- and it did in the good old days
before SPAM (the electric kind) was invented.

But, many SMTP servers (the ones pointed to by the MX record) will not
accept mail from you unless you meet various requirements (which vary
considerably and the SMTP servers administrators try to keep secret).

For example you may have to be sending from an IP address who's
reverse-DNS lookup matches up with the from headers and with the MX
record for the domain you claim to be sending from.

Your mail might also get blocked/discarded if you're sending from
what's been identified as a dynamically allocated IP block (even if it
does have proper DNS and MX records).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Look into my eyes and
                                  at               try to forget that you have
                              gmail.com            a Macy's charge card!


From geezle86 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 21:08:56 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:08:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
Message-ID: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean, it's like this, for example.

I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it from some of these. The output will print:

1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)

You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?

Sincerely,


From gherron at digipen.edu  Thu Dec 12 21:49:14 2013
From: gherron at digipen.edu (Gary Herron)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 18:49:14 -0800
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
In-Reply-To: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
References: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AA75AA.5020900@digipen.edu>

On 12/12/2013 06:08 PM, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean, it's like this, for example.
>
> I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it from some of these. The output will print:
>
> 1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)
>
> You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?
>
> Sincerely,

No, I don't understand what your problem is.

You say there are no values but then you give 4 values (1, 2, 2, and 3), 
and then you *solve* the Knapsack problem like this:
         1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)

That looks like a fine solution to me.

Questions:

  * Exactly *what* is the problem.  If you tell us *carefully* what the
    problem is, we may try to solve it.

  * This is a Python list.  Does your problem have anything to do with
    Python?

  * Is this a homework problem?  We generally don't solve homework
    problems here (since you don't learn anything that way), but we are
    certainly happy to help you learn.

Gary Herron

-- 
Dr. Gary Herron
Department of Computer Science
DigiPen Institute of Technology
(425) 895-4418


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From geezle86 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 04:38:47 2013
From: geezle86 at gmail.com (geezle86 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:38:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
In-Reply-To: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
References: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f4f2c186-bc6c-4d82-ae32-c6650b34569b@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 9:08:56 AM UTC+7, geez... at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean, it's like this, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it from some of these. The output will print:
> 
> 
> 
> 1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)
> 
> 
> 
> You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?
> 
> 
> 
> Sincerely,

No, this isnt homework. There is a website called Jollybee (Its available only in Bahasa) Here is the link if you dont believe me http://jollybee.binus.ac.id/oj/site/problemset/problem/code/HS10F/

Im just got bored and trying to have fun.

Not values like that, i mean, everywhere, I found the pseudocode only teach me with 2 variable. Mostly weight and its values ($). For short, this problem I faced is only the weight, no values($).

Hope you get it.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 05:04:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:04:57 +0000
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
In-Reply-To: <f4f2c186-bc6c-4d82-ae32-c6650b34569b@googlegroups.com>
References: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
 <f4f2c186-bc6c-4d82-ae32-c6650b34569b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8em44$hjt$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 09:38, geezle86 at gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 13, 2013 9:08:56 AM UTC+7, geez... at gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean, it's like this, for example.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it from some of these. The output will print:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)
>>
>>
>>
>> You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>
> No, this isnt homework. There is a website called Jollybee (Its available only in Bahasa) Here is the link if you dont believe me http://jollybee.binus.ac.id/oj/site/problemset/problem/code/HS10F/
>
> Im just got bored and trying to have fun.
>
> Not values like that, i mean, everywhere, I found the pseudocode only teach me with 2 variable. Mostly weight and its values ($). For short, this problem I faced is only the weight, no values($).
>
> Hope you get it.
>

Would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 04:28:33 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 09:28:33 GMT
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
References: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
 <f4f2c186-bc6c-4d82-ae32-c6650b34569b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ac24c1$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:38:47 -0800, geezle86 wrote:

> On Friday, December 13, 2013 9:08:56 AM UTC+7, geez... at gmail.com wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But
>> this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean,
>> it's like this, for example.
>> 
>> I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to
>> make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it
>> from some of these. The output will print:
>> 
>> 1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)
>> 
>> You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?
>
> No, this isnt homework. There is a website called Jollybee (Its
> available only in Bahasa) Here is the link if you dont believe me
> http://jollybee.binus.ac.id/oj/site/problemset/problem/code/HS10F/
> 
> Im just got bored and trying to have fun.
> 
> Not values like that, i mean, everywhere, I found the pseudocode only
> teach me with 2 variable. Mostly weight and its values ($). For short,
> this problem I faced is only the weight, no values($).

With only one value, I think it counts as a variation of the Change-
Making Problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Change-making_problem


-- 
Steven


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:16:29 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 04:16:29 -0700
Subject: Knapsack Problem Without Value
In-Reply-To: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
References: <300d0e8c-73dc-4b45-b3c0-ad1fae1928cb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALwzid=Q-VRrUpMJLwZ8ACmKVrtsNs_Jzm-vVHHkcevp4U772Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 7:08 PM,  <geezle86 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I wanna ask about Knapsack. I do understand what Knapsack is about. But this one i faced is a different problem. There is no value. I mean, it's like this, for example.
>
> I have 4 beams [X0, X1, X2, X3]. Each 1, 2, 2, 3 cm long. I want to make a new 6 cm long connected-beam from these 4 beams. I can make it from some of these. The output will print:
>
> 1, 2, 3 #(X0, X1, X3)
>
> You understand what my problem is? Can you help me?

With no values, where the goal is just to make a specific sum, it's
the subset sum problem, not the knapsack problem.


From d.joshi84 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 23:29:25 2013
From: d.joshi84 at gmail.com (Unix SA)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:59:25 +0530
Subject: Need help with file object
Message-ID: <CACDG_KfbVuPbBpMWVcgVMQLjZ5N+mm-oPAaqyPoBKV62cW80hA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am facing some issue when copying or moving file

f=open('/tmp/file1')
s=open('/tmp/file2')

for line in f:
  if 'match' not in line:
     s.write(line)

import shutil
shutil.move(s, f)

With above prog I am getting error
TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need sting or buffer, file found

What that means and how I can resolve it.

Regards,
Dj
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From cjwelborn at live.com  Thu Dec 12 23:54:13 2013
From: cjwelborn at live.com (Christopher Welborn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 22:54:13 -0600
Subject: Need help with file object
In-Reply-To: <CACDG_KfbVuPbBpMWVcgVMQLjZ5N+mm-oPAaqyPoBKV62cW80hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACDG_KfbVuPbBpMWVcgVMQLjZ5N+mm-oPAaqyPoBKV62cW80hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8e3te$r07$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/12/2013 10:29 PM, Unix SA wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am facing some issue when copying or moving file
>
> f=open('/tmp/file1')
> s=open('/tmp/file2')
>
> for line in f:
>    if 'match' not in line:
>       s.write(line)
>
> import shutil
> shutil.move(s, f)
>
> With above prog I am getting error
> TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need sting or buffer, file found
>
> What that means and how I can resolve it.
>
> Regards,
> Dj
>
>
>

You are sending the actual file objects to shutil.move, it is expecting
a string. Actually, strings containing the path to move and the
destination. Like this: shutil.move('/tmp/file2', '/tmp/file1')

-- 

- Christopher Welborn <cjwelborn at live.com>
   http://welbornprod.com



From rustompmody at gmail.com  Thu Dec 12 23:53:10 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 20:53:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need help with file object
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4047.1386908972.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4047.1386908972.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <7f8a1809-fd66-4bd9-a005-305d483ecd63@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 9:59:25 AM UTC+5:30, Unix SA wrote:
> s=open('/tmp/file2')

<snipped>

>    s.write(line)

Among other things you are missing a write mode 

(2nd optional argument to open)

http://docs.python.org/2/tutorial/inputoutput.html#reading-and-writing-files


From gordon at panix.com  Fri Dec 13 00:37:01 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 05:37:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Need help with file object
References: <mailman.4047.1386908972.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8e6ds$7kb$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <mailman.4047.1386908972.18130.python-list at python.org> Unix SA <d.joshi84 at gmail.com> writes:

> f=open('/tmp/file1')
> s=open('/tmp/file2')

> for line in f:
>   if 'match' not in line:
>      s.write(line)

> import shutil
> shutil.move(s, f)

> With above prog I am getting error
> TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need sting or buffer, file found

> What that means and how I can resolve it.

shutil.move() expects filename arguments, not open file objects.

Also, since your open() statements are missing the file mode ('r' or 'w'),
they will both open in the default read mode.

Also, it really helps if you post the real code and real error message.
Don't type them from memory.

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From bgailer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 10:57:25 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:57:25 -0500
Subject: Need help with file object
In-Reply-To: <CACDG_KfbVuPbBpMWVcgVMQLjZ5N+mm-oPAaqyPoBKV62cW80hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACDG_KfbVuPbBpMWVcgVMQLjZ5N+mm-oPAaqyPoBKV62cW80hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AB2E65.7090504@gmail.com>

On 12/12/2013 11:29 PM, Unix SA wrote:
> ...
>
> With above prog I am getting error
> TypeError: coercing to Unicode: need sting or buffer, file found
>
In future please copy and paste the entire traceback. It appears that 
you typed in just one line of it.

In this case the line raising the exception was obvious, but often it is 
not.


From jenny.stone125 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 00:15:22 2013
From: jenny.stone125 at gmail.com (jennifer stone)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:45:22 +0530
Subject: request for guidance
Message-ID: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>

greetings
I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python projects.
How and where do I begin?
thanking you in anticipation
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From veritatem.ignotam at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 02:31:18 2013
From: veritatem.ignotam at gmail.com (Veritatem Ignotam)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 01:31:18 -0600
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AAB7C6.6060608@gmail.com>

I read 'Beginning Python 2.6 and 3.1' by James Payne. It was pretty good.

Code Academy has a python course. http://www.codecademy.com/tracks/python
I've never done it but it might be good

Cheers,

V.I.

On 12/12/2013 11:15 PM, jennifer stone wrote:
> greetings
> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python
> projects. How and where do I begin?
> thanking you in anticipation
>
>

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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 13 07:01:23 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 04:01:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4050.1386916436.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4050.1386916436.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9054ed71-e2f3-4447-a1af-d272740bddc8@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 12:15:22 AM UTC-5, jennifer stone wrote:
> greetings
> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python projects. How and where do I begin?
> 
> thanking you in anticipation

Jennifer, hi, welcome!  If you are looking for help with the
mechanics of open-source contribution, and with finding projects
and tasks, Open Hatch is a good resource: https://openhatch.org/  

Their entire mission is making it easier for new contributors to 
join open source projects.

--Ned.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:47:47 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:47:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4050.1386916436.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4050.1386916436.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ed72daeb-339c-46d7-8ff5-ddc6b0658543@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 13, 2013 10:45:22 AM UTC+5:30, jennifer stone wrote:
> greetings

> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python
> projects. How and where do I begin?

Good to see new names!

How much python do you know/studied/coded?


From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 19 09:53:41 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:53:41 +0100
Subject: request for guidance
References: <mailman.4050.1386916436.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131219155341.89ddd1100e8bd389be3279a5@gmx.net>

> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python
> projects. How and where do I begin?

You're looking for work?

Try:

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonProjects
http://www.python.org/about/apps/
https://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Python_software

And pick whatever fits best with your interests and skills.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From zachary.ware+pylist at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 08:27:24 2013
From: zachary.ware+pylist at gmail.com (Zachary Ware)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 07:27:24 -0600
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKJDb-PnWS19ig1d8giyuMDdr2PpECRWEmYEDibZN+BALZn69Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:15 PM, jennifer stone
<jenny.stone125 at gmail.com> wrote:
> greetings
> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python projects.
> How and where do I begin?
> thanking you in anticipation

If you're interested in contributing to Python itself, you can consult
the Python devguide [1] for suggestions on how to get started.  I
would also recommend the core-mentorship mailing list[2][3], which is
a private (archives are only available to members) list where you can
ask any questions you may have.

Welcome! :)

-- 
Zach

[1] http://docs.python.org/devguide/index.html
[2] List info: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/core-mentorship
[3] Homepage: http://pythonmentors.com


From jenny.stone125 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 12:46:30 2013
From: jenny.stone125 at gmail.com (jennifer stone)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:16:30 +0530
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>

hello!
thanks a ton for your warm response. I know the basics of python with some
modules like pickle, urllib, re. Its kind of basic I know. but it gotta
start somewhere and I really want to have real world experience.
thanks
jennifer


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 10:45 AM, jennifer stone
<jenny.stone125 at gmail.com>wrote:

> greetings
> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python projects.
> How and where do I begin?
> thanking you in anticipation
>
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From dwightdhutto at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 23:48:34 2013
From: dwightdhutto at gmail.com (David Hutto)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:48:34 -0500
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>

In my opinion, a novice always tries to reinvent the wheel. Take for
example a simple text editor.

But I  would go with something that shows your creativity...like a game.
It's not just about code, but graphics/enhancements, and other evolutions
of the open source nature of programming.


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 12:46 PM, jennifer stone
<jenny.stone125 at gmail.com>wrote:

> hello!
> thanks a ton for your warm response. I know the basics of python with some
> modules like pickle, urllib, re. Its kind of basic I know. but it gotta
> start somewhere and I really want to have real world experience.
> thanks
> jennifer
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 10:45 AM, jennifer stone <jenny.stone125 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> greetings
>> I am a novice who is really interested in contributing to Python
>> projects. How and where do I begin?
>> thanking you in anticipation
>>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>


-- 
Best Regards,
David Hutto
*CEO:* *http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com <http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com>*
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 23:56:29 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:56:29 +1100
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:48 PM, David Hutto <dwightdhutto at gmail.com> wrote:
> In my opinion, a novice always tries to reinvent the wheel. Take for example
> a simple text editor.

Which isn't a bad thing. Especially in that particular case, it's good
to try your hand at writing a text editor - most of the hard
grunt-work is done for you (just plop down an edit control - in some
toolkits you can even deploy a control with full source code
highlighting), so you can focus on figuring out what it is that makes
yours different. And then you'll appreciate other editors more :) But
along the way, you'll learn so much about what feels right and what
feels wrong. And maybe you can incorporate some of your own special
unique features into whatever editor you end up using... quite a few
are scriptable.

ChrisA


From dwightdhutto at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 00:11:09 2013
From: dwightdhutto at gmail.com (David Hutto)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 00:11:09 -0500
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vVgJUGcrLiPgm+-bCEAsHrG7H0tigSiYndnS0pxbM=+_uqZA@mail.gmail.com>

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean reinventing the wheel is a bad thing,
just that once you get the hang of things, you need to display some
creativity in your work to set yourself apart from the rest.

Nowadays, everyone's a programmer.

If it weren't for reinventing the wheel, then we wouldn't have abs(antilock
breaking systems), or new materials, or different treading for water
displacement or hydroplaning.

The point was just to try something in python, and to 'boldly go where no
'man' has gone before'.


Just to remind her that it's not just about python, but what you can
accomplish with it, and distinguish yourself from others.


On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:48 PM, David Hutto <dwightdhutto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In my opinion, a novice always tries to reinvent the wheel. Take for
> example
> > a simple text editor.
>
> Which isn't a bad thing. Especially in that particular case, it's good
> to try your hand at writing a text editor - most of the hard
> grunt-work is done for you (just plop down an edit control - in some
> toolkits you can even deploy a control with full source code
> highlighting), so you can focus on figuring out what it is that makes
> yours different. And then you'll appreciate other editors more :) But
> along the way, you'll learn so much about what feels right and what
> feels wrong. And maybe you can incorporate some of your own special
> unique features into whatever editor you end up using... quite a few
> are scriptable.
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Best Regards,
David Hutto
*CEO:* *http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com <http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com>*
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From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 00:36:19 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 21:36:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4108.1386997872.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4108.1386997872.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <34e6e8ba-f8c4-43c2-9998-78bcfc1bbfcc@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 14, 2013 10:41:09 AM UTC+5:30, David Hutto wrote:
> Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean reinventing the wheel is a bad thing, just that once you get the hang of things, you need to display some creativity in your work to set yourself apart from the rest.
> Nowadays, everyone's a programmer.
> If it weren't for reinventing the wheel, then we wouldn't have abs(antilock breaking systems), or new materials, or different treading for water displacement or hydroplaning. 
> The point was just to try something in python, and to 'boldly go where no 'man' has gone before'.
> Just to remind her that it's not just about python, but what you can accomplish with it, and distinguish yourself from others.

> On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Chris Angelico <ros... at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:48 PM, David Hutto <dwight... at gmail.com> wrote:
> > In my opinion, a novice always tries to reinvent the wheel. Take for example
> > a simple text editor.

> Which isn't a bad thing. Especially in that particular case, it's good
> to try your hand at writing a text editor - most of the hard
> grunt-work is done for you (just plop down an edit control - in some
> toolkits you can even deploy a control with full source code
> highlighting), so you can focus on figuring out what it is that makes
> yours different. And then you'll appreciate other editors more :) But
> along the way, you'll learn so much about what feels right and what
> feels wrong. And maybe you can incorporate some of your own special
> unique features into whatever editor you end up using... quite a few
> are scriptable.


For the young-n-enthu "Make haste slowly!" is usually good advice


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 00:43:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:43:05 +1100
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <34e6e8ba-f8c4-43c2-9998-78bcfc1bbfcc@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4108.1386997872.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <34e6e8ba-f8c4-43c2-9998-78bcfc1bbfcc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp7cVeGmBUEBx2ypGhdsmT8Uge2ZkJUWUp9y2Xi3d=Vkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:36 PM, rusi <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> For the young-n-enthu "Make haste slowly!" is usually good advice

As the Ancient Romans said, "festina lente".

ChrisA
[1] http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/iolanthe/web_op/iol13.html


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 02:54:57 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:54:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: request for guidance
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4108.1386997872.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAO_-KLhvOHhgRgVzoyFe6u=GBR+3wUcJZ_REUwKJDqRvsirMhQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO_-KLiBX_HYo0rUikNOB6LpTMqpo12x+QBst6VoMik6xKCT7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+vVgJXTF_0rvNXfcsCxR1A-tdSbBWFvmWgTCTak8dR6551zHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpmK+EC08XCVQESEU9R6J3xvPdcq6WALW5VEmXTiTuaig@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4108.1386997872.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <63dbc4c1-1d17-4a40-8e5d-d431a8ca7c35@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 14, 2013 10:41:09 AM UTC+5:30, David Hutto wrote:

> Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean reinventing the wheel is a bad
> thing, just that once you get the hang of things, you need to
> display some creativity in your work to set yourself apart from the
> rest.

> Nowadays, everyone's a programmer.

> If it weren't for reinventing the wheel, then we wouldn't have
> abs(antilock breaking systems), or new materials, or different
> treading for water displacement or hydroplaning.

> The point was just to try something in python, and to 'boldly go
> where no 'man' has gone before'.  Just to remind her that it's not
> just about python, but what you can accomplish with it, and
> distinguish yourself from others.

To complement what David is saying, programmers need to know
programming but a lot else besides in order to become even minimally
productive. eg

Primary Development tools/aids

   1. Help
   2. Interpreter-CLI
   3. Interpreter-Introspection
   4. Editor
   5. Completion ('intellisense')
   6. Tags (navigation)
   7. Refactoring
   8. Integration with 'non-programming' below


Other Development Tools
   1. Debugger
   2. Profiler
   3. Heap Profiler
   4. Coverage

Non-Programming

 Area             | Tool(s)              
------------------+----------------------
 packaging        | distutils, setuptools
                  | pip        
                  | Native tools (eg apt)
 versioning       | hg, git, bzr         
 multiple pythons | virtualenv           
 automation       | tox                  
 testing          | unittest, nose, pytest
 build            | scons, make...       
 deployment       | fabric               

Yeah I know this can sound a bit intimidating :-)

In actual practice most active developers need to know about 30% of the above

But you need to know which is your 30% ;-)

PS. Yeah you can say Im just a teacher trying to justify my job!!  On
the other side, for years I argued with the authorities that a 3 year
CS degree could be reduced to 6 months.

But I dont think it could be reduced to 6 days... or even 6 weeks


From uni.mail.2014 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 05:32:49 2013
From: uni.mail.2014 at gmail.com (uni.mail.2014 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 02:32:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: accessing a page which request an openID authentication
Message-ID: <7527da49-01e5-476e-9c77-4649b217a0b1@googlegroups.com>

I have a page that request an openID authentication "google ID" before you are able to download any file from it. 
this is the website "http://oc.gtisc.gatech.edu:8080/search.cgi?search=sality" and I tried a lot but it dose not seem that the ordinary login using session or requests work on this case ? any guidance or help ?


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 13 08:49:42 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:49:42 +0000
Subject: accessing a page which request an openID authentication
In-Reply-To: <7527da49-01e5-476e-9c77-4649b217a0b1@googlegroups.com>
References: <7527da49-01e5-476e-9c77-4649b217a0b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8f39n$dbc$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 13/12/2013 10:32, uni.mail.2014 at gmail.com wrote:
> I have a page that request an openID authentication "google ID" before you are able to download any file from it.
> this is the website "http://oc.gtisc.gatech.edu:8080/search.cgi?search=sality" and I tried a lot but it dose not seem that the ordinary login using session or requests work on this case ? any guidance or help ?
>

Please show us a code sample that you've tried.  State what you expected 
to happen, what actually happened, your OS and Python version.  If you 
have a traceback cut and paste all of it into your message.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:42:37 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:42:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: accessing a page which request an openID authentication
References: <7527da49-01e5-476e-9c77-4649b217a0b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8fddt$q8u$3@dont-email.me>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 02:32:49 -0800, uni.mail.2014 wrote:

> I have a page that request an openID authentication ....

And your Python question is?

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 05:01:53 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 10:01:53 GMT
Subject: accessing a page which request an openID authentication
References: <7527da49-01e5-476e-9c77-4649b217a0b1@googlegroups.com>
 <l8fddt$q8u$3@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <52ac2c91$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:42:37 +0000, Denis McMahon wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 02:32:49 -0800, uni.mail.2014 wrote:
> 
>> I have a page that request an openID authentication ....
> 
> And your Python question is?

I thought the question was fairly obvious. How would you access a page 
using OpenID in Python?

The "in Python" should be implied by the fact that it was posted to a 
Python forum rather than a Ruby/Forth/C/Go/Scheme/whatever forum. 
Presumably the poster is an expert Python coder who just needs a pointer 
to some library that handles OpenID, probably because Google is blocked 
in whatever part of the world he is posting from. As are Bing, 
DuckDuckGo, and Yahoo. (It must suck to be a programmer in North Korea.)

To uni.mail.2014, if that is your real name, you'll improve the quality 
of the answers to your questions if you improve the quality of your 
questions. What gave you tried? What result did you get? What result did 
you expect? What version of Python are you using? What level of hand-
holding do you require, e.g. are you a Python expert or beginner?


-- 
Steven


From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Fri Dec 13 06:28:54 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 13 Dec 2013 11:28:54 GMT
Subject: smart splitting - how to
Message-ID: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>

Hi,

I'd like to read several strings by using 'input'. 
These strings are separated by white space but I'd like to allow for
some quoting, e.g.

"Guido van" Rossum

should be split into 2 strings only

Now, a simple split doesn't work since it splits the quoted text as well.
Is there a simple way to do so?
It would be nice if it could handle embedded quotes which are escaped 
by a backslash, too.

Is there something simpler then a sophisticated regular expression 
or even a parser?

Many thanks for a hint,
Helmut


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:35:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 22:35:57 +1100
Subject: smart splitting - how to
In-Reply-To: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpEwY_q3cz3xcm5ntJSekagOfThOp2jwd4UXjoXLBKbLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 10:28 PM, Helmut Jarausch
<jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> Now, a simple split doesn't work since it splits the quoted text as well.
> Is there a simple way to do so?
> It would be nice if it could handle embedded quotes which are escaped
> by a backslash, too.

Sounds like you want shell-style splitting. Check out the shlex module:

http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/shlex.html

ChrisA


From robert.kern at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:39:57 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:39:57 +0000
Subject: smart splitting - how to
In-Reply-To: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <l8erm2$hqg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-13 11:28, Helmut Jarausch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to read several strings by using 'input'.
> These strings are separated by white space but I'd like to allow for
> some quoting, e.g.
>
> "Guido van" Rossum
>
> should be split into 2 strings only
>
> Now, a simple split doesn't work since it splits the quoted text as well.
> Is there a simple way to do so?
> It would be nice if it could handle embedded quotes which are escaped
> by a backslash, too.
>
> Is there something simpler then a sophisticated regular expression
> or even a parser?

http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/shlex


[~]
|1> import shlex

[~]
|2> shlex.split(r'"Guido \"van\" Rossum" invented Python')
['Guido "van" Rossum', 'invented', 'Python']



-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:35:13 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 06:35:13 -0500
Subject: smart splitting - how to
In-Reply-To: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
References: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+ziSSxn+ypLZnsctB8JHZ=m-2mrJ+xekjmjgjQdZQRSuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Helmut Jarausch <
jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to read several strings by using 'input'.
> These strings are separated by white space but I'd like to allow for
> some quoting, e.g.
>
> "Guido van" Rossum
>
> should be split into 2 strings only
>
> Now, a simple split doesn't work since it splits the quoted text as well.
> Is there a simple way to do so?
> It would be nice if it could handle embedded quotes which are escaped
> by a backslash, too.
>
> Is there something simpler then a sophisticated regular expression
> or even a parser?
>
> Many thanks for a hint,
> Helmut
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Take a look at the csv reader module.  You can set it to use space as field
separator and also to handle quotes as field delimiters.  This would leave
your quoted strings with spaces as a single field.

http://docs.python.org/2/library/csv.html#dialects-and-formatting-parameters

I haven't tried your example, but I'm pretty sure it can handle it.

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Fri Dec 13 06:55:37 2013
From: jarausch at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Helmut Jarausch)
Date: 13 Dec 2013 11:55:37 GMT
Subject: smart splitting - how to
References: <bh09bmFp8jrU1@mid.dfncis.de>
 <mailman.4065.1386934815.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bh0atpFpltvU1@mid.dfncis.de>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:39:57 +0000, Chris Angelico and Robert Kern wrote:

> On 2013-12-13 11:28, Helmut Jarausch wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to read several strings by using 'input'.
>> These strings are separated by white space but I'd like to allow for
>> some quoting, e.g.
>>
>> "Guido van" Rossum
>>
>> should be split into 2 strings only
>>
>> Now, a simple split doesn't work since it splits the quoted text as well.
>> Is there a simple way to do so?
>> It would be nice if it could handle embedded quotes which are escaped
>> by a backslash, too.
>>
>> Is there something simpler then a sophisticated regular expression
>> or even a parser?
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/shlex
> 
> 
> [~]
> |1> import shlex
> 
> [~]
> |2> shlex.split(r'"Guido \"van\" Rossum" invented Python')
> ['Guido "van" Rossum', 'invented', 'Python']

Many thanks, that works perfectly and is so simple.
Helmut




From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 06:39:44 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 03:39:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: want  to run proxy in python
Message-ID: <5a77d2ea-7047-4864-8cad-8f2e6838a555@googlegroups.com>

hey , will u guide me how to run proxies from python 

i have tested lots of code but my ip show always constant on when i see it online 

plz help .


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:46:48 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:46:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: want  to run proxy in python
References: <5a77d2ea-7047-4864-8cad-8f2e6838a555@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8fdlo$q8u$4@dont-email.me>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013 03:39:44 -0800, Jai wrote:

> hey , will u guide me how to run proxies from python

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ip+address+spoofing

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 08:10:54 2013
From: bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com (bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 05:10:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially since
 sept. 11.
Message-ID: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially since sept. 11.

An important article shows that every child is born on the "fitrah" (natural inclination) of "Islam", the spread of Islam after September eleventh and that it?s necessary to make an open communication between Muslims & Non-Muslims for presenting a right picture about Islam .

Salam Alaykum:

Your question about the increase in the "reversion to Islam" is a good one. You have given me the excuse to do something that I have wanted to do for a long time. I have wanted to write on the subject of "Reverts to Islam in Modern Times" and the message that it carries to all of us Muslims about Islam TODAY.
BACK TO Islam?
Reverts to Islam In Modern Times

"Revert" As Opposed to "Convert"

I like to use the word "revert" as opposed to the word "convert" as it more suits the occasion of a person returning back to his natural condition at birth. The baby is born in true surrender, submission, obedience and peace with his Creator. And this is the desirable position of the Muslim, to be in peace and submission to the Will of Allah (God in English). Instead of thinking in terms of "converting" people over to Islam, it is better understood that they are simply returning back to their natural state at birth. And this is from the teachings of our beloved prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him. (Muslims should always say "Peace be upon him/them" when referring to any of the prophets).

Like A Baby

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "Every child is born on the "fitrah" (natural inclination) of "Islam" (surrender, submission and peace to the Creator on His Terms). And it is their parents who raise them up to be Jews, Christians or fire worshippers."

Dr. Ted Campbell who is the professor of religion at the seminary school in Maryland and I were both sharing the speakers platform last year in Maryland University. At the closing of a very nice interfaith dialog there came a strange question for both of us. Noah, the moderator said: "This last question is for both speakers: "Why are each of you in your religion?"

Dr. Campbell took his position in front of the microphone and then looked around the room as he thought about the question. I will never forget his words. He said: "I guess I would have to say that I am a Methodist because, well because, my parents raised me that way. As a Methodist."

He was right.

That is what we know as Muslims. However, as I mentioned in my answer to the same question: "And then some are brought back to their original state as a baby." They are "reverted" to Islam by the Mercy of Allah.

Actual or Factual Numbers of American Muslims

Many people are claiming that twice as many, or three times or four times, or even ten times as many people are coming into Islam as they did prior to the events of September 11. Who could possibly know the numbers? We are not even sure how many Muslims live here in America. I have heard the numbers range from around 3,000,000 all the way up to 11,000,000. I'm sure that only Allah Knows for sure how many Muslims there are in America.

Rate of "Reversion"

Actually, I can't give accurate statistics before or after the September events. I have heard from some "experts" that Islam was the fastest growing religion in the world prior to the September 11 events. I have no reason to doubt it either. In the many Masjids around the United States and in the many countries that I have been fortunate enough to visit I have found thousands who have entered into Islam. The Anglican Church of England expressed concern that if something does not change in the trend of new Muslims in England that the Muslims will out number the Anglicans by the year 2010.

The number one name of the birth certificates for new born boys in England was not John, or Michael, or William. It is "Muhammad." In Mexico, Sweden, Denmark and Canada I have witnessed so many coming into Islam that I cannot count them all. Everywhere I go I meet new Muslims. Prisons, universities and even in the military I have personally seen thousands who came to Islam. This is all before the events of September 11.

More Exposure to the Message

What I feel comfortable saying is that more and more people are being to exposed to Islam all over the world. Whether or not the picture they are receiving is painted correctly or not is not as important a factor as is the fact that at long last many people on this planet are looking at Islam as something very real. Therefore, when they ask about Islam some of the information is stimulating feelings inside of the people. Naturally we are going to see those who are stimulated to be against Islam. At the same time you have to understand that there are a number of people who will take the position that you cannot always believe everything in the news media. These are the ones whom Allah guides to inquire and learn more.

Allah is the Only Guide

It is only Allah who Guides the people and it is only Allah who Misguides. The biggest problem in the past used to be the lack of interest in Islam. People were not interested in talking about Islam or any religion for that matter, even their own. Now the problem is the lack of correct knowledge of Islam. There simply was not anything about Islam out there.

Then the events of the 1970s with the actions of some of the Iranians when they hijacked airplanes and we saw on the news, men prostrating on the ground outside the airplanes. We in the West learned a new word; "Shi'ism". People said this is some strange religion (Islam). What is going on? Then came the 1980s and we saw acts of terrorism that occurred in Palestine and the words "fundamentalist" and "Muslim" became associated together.

At the very beginning of the next decade we saw something take place in Iraq and Kuwait. Again religion is brought into the picture. Not a pretty picture, but a picture. Midway through the 1990s we saw big actions taking place everywhere in the world. The Trade Center in New York, airplanes, embassies, attacks and counter attacks. All along we are hearing something about "Islam" and "Moslems." Still not very positive to say the least. Then what occurred in September brought out more information, although distorted, about this religion of the East.

President Says "Islam is Peace"

Every home, every business, every place on earth became exposed to this religion called: "Islam." The president of the United States went on television at a time when everyone who had a TV set was watching to see what the United States Commander in Chief was going to say about the events of September 11, and what US was going to do. His message contained a lot of threats and promises about what the Americans were going to do to those who committed these horrific acts of terrorism. But the words that stick in my mind are the words that introduced Islam to a lot of people around the world who had never heard of Islam before in their lives.

The words of President G. W. Bush when he said: "Islam is a religion of peace." Every single place on earth that could receive the broadcast signal from the TV towers or the satellites orbiting the earth got the message. And for those who were not so fortunate as to have a TV set, it was simultaneously broadcast on every radio station in the world. And for those who might have slept through the broadcast, it was rebroadcast over and over. And then for those who did not speak English of course there was translation. And then the written word took over where the broadcasting left off. There was not a newspaper in the world except that it carried something of the meaning of what Mr. Bush said on that occasion. It was a historical speech. One that will go down in the books of history as the retaliation of a nation against terrorism. He said it. "Islam IS A RELIGION OF PEACE."

Divide Muslims

Now we know that Mr. Bush is not promoting Islam by any stretch of the imagination. However, he still could not afford to say something derogatory against all the Muslims in the world by attacking Islam. That would then unite all the Muslims against America (at least most of them).

In fact it was to the advantage of the Americans to make statements that would help divide the Muslims over the situation existing in Afghanistan and the situation that was sure to occur. By making this statement, he left the door open for the Muslims who did not want to see any problem between the materialism of the West (which they personally enjoyed or would like to enjoy) and the sacrificing of those who were willing to stand up against the tyranny and oppression of the Western society and all that comes along with it.

So the strategy was to say things that made certain Muslims look bad while at the same time not exactly attacking Islam. This led up to the next desirable situation for shaytan (the devil): Divide the Muslims against each other. So, now we had "mainstream Muslims" and "fundamentalist Muslims" and "terrorist Islam" and "modern Islam." It worked too. The Muslims did the thing that the non-Muslims could never have done. The Muslims defeated themselves. Anytime that Muslims fight Muslims and Muslims kill Muslims, then Allah's Protection is lifted from them and they will loose. That is what happened.

People Want to Know

Still in the midst of all of this negative propaganda and bad press, non-Muslim people were curious to learn more of this "cult" of Islam, its people and their beliefs. Books about Islam and Muslims were disappearing off the shelves of the bookstores faster than they could replenish them. Unfortunately almost every single book was written either by a non-Muslim or authors from the various deviant sects of Muslims. So the people were still not getting the real message of the true Islam.

Websites, chat rooms, email and message boards became alive with information (and misinformation) about Islam, Muslims, Quran, Muhammad, peace be upon him. Some people wanted to know the truth, others wanted to hide it. Discussions and arguments about what Islam is about and what Muslims do were very common place. This was the most exposure that these subjects had ever had in the world at one time.


Open Communication Between Muslim & Non-Muslim

The good news came when the various dialogs between the Muslims and Christians began to take place. When the non-Muslims began to enter the masjids and sit with the Muslims and shared together in discussions and shared together enjoying the food and traditions of other cultures an amazing thing began to happen. They opened their minds and their hearts to the true message of the submission and surrender and obedience to the One True God, Allah -- in Islam.

Back to Islam

Since September 11th, I have seen a huge increase in the interest of people wanting to know about Islam and at the same time a marked increase in the "dawah" (invitation) to Islam on the part of the Muslims around the world. This is how the people are coming to Islam. The same way people have come to Islam for 1,400 years. By learning the true message and being with real Muslims. Those who are inclined to "revert" back to the natural state of baby-like submission and peace with Allah, are finding their way back to Islam.


Many New Muslims

Islam today, is growing faster than ever. It is the Will of Allah, for only He Guides. The people want to know. The interest is keen. The materials are available in more simple terms in many languages. The Muslims are starting to carry the responsibility of sharing the message of the true "Peace With God in Islam."

Islam In Every Home

Somewhere in the middle of all of this is occurred to me an expression of our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. When he said what might translate to English as:

"The Last Day will not come until Islam has entered every house on earth, whether it is made of animal skins or from the earth."

http://www.islamhouse.com/185804/en/en/articles/Islam_is_the_fastest_growing_religion_in_the_world_especially_since_sept._11.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com

thank you


From amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:32:24 2013
From: amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com (Amirouche Boubekki)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:32:24 +0100
Subject: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially
 since sept. 11.
In-Reply-To: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>
References: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>

Why is bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com still not banned?


2013/12/13 <bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com>

> Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially since sept.
> 11.
>
> An important article shows that every child is born on the "fitrah"
> (natural inclination) of "Islam", the spread of Islam after September
> eleventh and that it?s necessary to make an open communication between
> Muslims & Non-Muslims for presenting a right picture about Islam .
>
> Salam Alaykum:
>
> Your question about the increase in the "reversion to Islam" is a good
> one. You have given me the excuse to do something that I have wanted to do
> for a long time. I have wanted to write on the subject of "Reverts to Islam
> in Modern Times" and the message that it carries to all of us Muslims about
> Islam TODAY.
> BACK TO Islam?
> Reverts to Islam In Modern Times
>
> "Revert" As Opposed to "Convert"
>
> I like to use the word "revert" as opposed to the word "convert" as it
> more suits the occasion of a person returning back to his natural condition
> at birth. The baby is born in true surrender, submission, obedience and
> peace with his Creator. And this is the desirable position of the Muslim,
> to be in peace and submission to the Will of Allah (God in English).
> Instead of thinking in terms of "converting" people over to Islam, it is
> better understood that they are simply returning back to their natural
> state at birth. And this is from the teachings of our beloved prophet,
> Muhammad, peace be upon him. (Muslims should always say "Peace be upon
> him/them" when referring to any of the prophets).
>
> Like A Baby
>
> Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "Every child is born on the
> "fitrah" (natural inclination) of "Islam" (surrender, submission and peace
> to the Creator on His Terms). And it is their parents who raise them up to
> be Jews, Christians or fire worshippers."
>
> Dr. Ted Campbell who is the professor of religion at the seminary school
> in Maryland and I were both sharing the speakers platform last year in
> Maryland University. At the closing of a very nice interfaith dialog there
> came a strange question for both of us. Noah, the moderator said: "This
> last question is for both speakers: "Why are each of you in your religion?"
>
> Dr. Campbell took his position in front of the microphone and then looked
> around the room as he thought about the question. I will never forget his
> words. He said: "I guess I would have to say that I am a Methodist because,
> well because, my parents raised me that way. As a Methodist."
>
> He was right.
>
> That is what we know as Muslims. However, as I mentioned in my answer to
> the same question: "And then some are brought back to their original state
> as a baby." They are "reverted" to Islam by the Mercy of Allah.
>
> Actual or Factual Numbers of American Muslims
>
> Many people are claiming that twice as many, or three times or four times,
> or even ten times as many people are coming into Islam as they did prior to
> the events of September 11. Who could possibly know the numbers? We are not
> even sure how many Muslims live here in America. I have heard the numbers
> range from around 3,000,000 all the way up to 11,000,000. I'm sure that
> only Allah Knows for sure how many Muslims there are in America.
>
> Rate of "Reversion"
>
> Actually, I can't give accurate statistics before or after the September
> events. I have heard from some "experts" that Islam was the fastest growing
> religion in the world prior to the September 11 events. I have no reason to
> doubt it either. In the many Masjids around the United States and in the
> many countries that I have been fortunate enough to visit I have found
> thousands who have entered into Islam. The Anglican Church of England
> expressed concern that if something does not change in the trend of new
> Muslims in England that the Muslims will out number the Anglicans by the
> year 2010.
>
> The number one name of the birth certificates for new born boys in England
> was not John, or Michael, or William. It is "Muhammad." In Mexico, Sweden,
> Denmark and Canada I have witnessed so many coming into Islam that I cannot
> count them all. Everywhere I go I meet new Muslims. Prisons, universities
> and even in the military I have personally seen thousands who came to
> Islam. This is all before the events of September 11.
>
> More Exposure to the Message
>
> What I feel comfortable saying is that more and more people are being to
> exposed to Islam all over the world. Whether or not the picture they are
> receiving is painted correctly or not is not as important a factor as is
> the fact that at long last many people on this planet are looking at Islam
> as something very real. Therefore, when they ask about Islam some of the
> information is stimulating feelings inside of the people. Naturally we are
> going to see those who are stimulated to be against Islam. At the same time
> you have to understand that there are a number of people who will take the
> position that you cannot always believe everything in the news media. These
> are the ones whom Allah guides to inquire and learn more.
>
> Allah is the Only Guide
>
> It is only Allah who Guides the people and it is only Allah who Misguides.
> The biggest problem in the past used to be the lack of interest in Islam.
> People were not interested in talking about Islam or any religion for that
> matter, even their own. Now the problem is the lack of correct knowledge of
> Islam. There simply was not anything about Islam out there.
>
> Then the events of the 1970s with the actions of some of the Iranians when
> they hijacked airplanes and we saw on the news, men prostrating on the
> ground outside the airplanes. We in the West learned a new word; "Shi'ism".
> People said this is some strange religion (Islam). What is going on? Then
> came the 1980s and we saw acts of terrorism that occurred in Palestine and
> the words "fundamentalist" and "Muslim" became associated together.
>
> At the very beginning of the next decade we saw something take place in
> Iraq and Kuwait. Again religion is brought into the picture. Not a pretty
> picture, but a picture. Midway through the 1990s we saw big actions taking
> place everywhere in the world. The Trade Center in New York, airplanes,
> embassies, attacks and counter attacks. All along we are hearing something
> about "Islam" and "Moslems." Still not very positive to say the least. Then
> what occurred in September brought out more information, although
> distorted, about this religion of the East.
>
> President Says "Islam is Peace"
>
> Every home, every business, every place on earth became exposed to this
> religion called: "Islam." The president of the United States went on
> television at a time when everyone who had a TV set was watching to see
> what the United States Commander in Chief was going to say about the events
> of September 11, and what US was going to do. His message contained a lot
> of threats and promises about what the Americans were going to do to those
> who committed these horrific acts of terrorism. But the words that stick in
> my mind are the words that introduced Islam to a lot of people around the
> world who had never heard of Islam before in their lives.
>
> The words of President G. W. Bush when he said: "Islam is a religion of
> peace." Every single place on earth that could receive the broadcast signal
> from the TV towers or the satellites orbiting the earth got the message.
> And for those who were not so fortunate as to have a TV set, it was
> simultaneously broadcast on every radio station in the world. And for those
> who might have slept through the broadcast, it was rebroadcast over and
> over. And then for those who did not speak English of course there was
> translation. And then the written word took over where the broadcasting
> left off. There was not a newspaper in the world except that it carried
> something of the meaning of what Mr. Bush said on that occasion. It was a
> historical speech. One that will go down in the books of history as the
> retaliation of a nation against terrorism. He said it. "Islam IS A RELIGION
> OF PEACE."
>
> Divide Muslims
>
> Now we know that Mr. Bush is not promoting Islam by any stretch of the
> imagination. However, he still could not afford to say something derogatory
> against all the Muslims in the world by attacking Islam. That would then
> unite all the Muslims against America (at least most of them).
>
> In fact it was to the advantage of the Americans to make statements that
> would help divide the Muslims over the situation existing in Afghanistan
> and the situation that was sure to occur. By making this statement, he left
> the door open for the Muslims who did not want to see any problem between
> the materialism of the West (which they personally enjoyed or would like to
> enjoy) and the sacrificing of those who were willing to stand up against
> the tyranny and oppression of the Western society and all that comes along
> with it.
>
> So the strategy was to say things that made certain Muslims look bad while
> at the same time not exactly attacking Islam. This led up to the next
> desirable situation for shaytan (the devil): Divide the Muslims against
> each other. So, now we had "mainstream Muslims" and "fundamentalist
> Muslims" and "terrorist Islam" and "modern Islam." It worked too. The
> Muslims did the thing that the non-Muslims could never have done. The
> Muslims defeated themselves. Anytime that Muslims fight Muslims and Muslims
> kill Muslims, then Allah's Protection is lifted from them and they will
> loose. That is what happened.
>
> People Want to Know
>
> Still in the midst of all of this negative propaganda and bad press,
> non-Muslim people were curious to learn more of this "cult" of Islam, its
> people and their beliefs. Books about Islam and Muslims were disappearing
> off the shelves of the bookstores faster than they could replenish them.
> Unfortunately almost every single book was written either by a non-Muslim
> or authors from the various deviant sects of Muslims. So the people were
> still not getting the real message of the true Islam.
>
> Websites, chat rooms, email and message boards became alive with
> information (and misinformation) about Islam, Muslims, Quran, Muhammad,
> peace be upon him. Some people wanted to know the truth, others wanted to
> hide it. Discussions and arguments about what Islam is about and what
> Muslims do were very common place. This was the most exposure that these
> subjects had ever had in the world at one time.
>
>
> Open Communication Between Muslim & Non-Muslim
>
> The good news came when the various dialogs between the Muslims and
> Christians began to take place. When the non-Muslims began to enter the
> masjids and sit with the Muslims and shared together in discussions and
> shared together enjoying the food and traditions of other cultures an
> amazing thing began to happen. They opened their minds and their hearts to
> the true message of the submission and surrender and obedience to the One
> True God, Allah -- in Islam.
>
> Back to Islam
>
> Since September 11th, I have seen a huge increase in the interest of
> people wanting to know about Islam and at the same time a marked increase
> in the "dawah" (invitation) to Islam on the part of the Muslims around the
> world. This is how the people are coming to Islam. The same way people have
> come to Islam for 1,400 years. By learning the true message and being with
> real Muslims. Those who are inclined to "revert" back to the natural state
> of baby-like submission and peace with Allah, are finding their way back to
> Islam.
>
>
> Many New Muslims
>
> Islam today, is growing faster than ever. It is the Will of Allah, for
> only He Guides. The people want to know. The interest is keen. The
> materials are available in more simple terms in many languages. The Muslims
> are starting to carry the responsibility of sharing the message of the true
> "Peace With God in Islam."
>
> Islam In Every Home
>
> Somewhere in the middle of all of this is occurred to me an expression of
> our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. When he said what might translate
> to English as:
>
> "The Last Day will not come until Islam has entered every house on earth,
> whether it is made of animal skins or from the earth."
>
>
> http://www.islamhouse.com/185804/en/en/articles/Islam_is_the_fastest_growing_religion_in_the_world_especially_since_sept._11
> .
>
> http://www.islamtomorrow.com
>
> thank you
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Fri Dec 13 11:40:55 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:40:55 +0000
Subject: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially
 since sept. 11.
In-Reply-To: <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AB3897.2020607@timgolden.me.uk>

On 13/12/2013 16:32, Amirouche Boubekki wrote:
> Why is bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com <mailto:bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com> still not banned?

[... snip long spiel from bv4 etc. ...]

Before recently, the answer would have been: because they're coming in
through the Usenet gateway so there's no mailing list subscription to
suspend.

However, we've recently implemented filtering via the gateway, and I've
just added bv4 to the list of banned addresses. (I'm not 100% sure I've
got it right, so let's see if they make it in again).

TJG


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:41:46 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:41:46 +1100
Subject: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially
 since sept. 11.
In-Reply-To: <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoRHNQ_KDGNmddwKixscduC1aGFRZXP6huE+u001b0gQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:32 AM, Amirouche Boubekki
<amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com still not banned?
>
>
> 2013/12/13 <bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com>
>> [ a whole lot of quoted text, including the URL ]

Why do you quote all the text, including the web link? I didn't see
the original, thanks to good spam filtering, but your response brought
this to my attention, not to mention put another copy into the
archives. Please, just ignore these sorts of things; or if you want to
reply for whatever reason, trim out the content, especially any links.

ChrisA


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:36:43 2013
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Q2hyaXMg4oCcS3dwb2xza2HigJ0gV2Fycmljaw==?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:36:43 +0100
Subject: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially
 since sept. 11.
In-Reply-To: <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f151497d-20a5-4b2e-8ebf-02089563e38f@googlegroups.com>
 <CAL7_Mo98CaCqHr4vunMFiiypvxWYbw+NRw=6ANDtD983sBGxeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7LcrdKN+50g8MDghk+eztqeEiTZBqfJ_UeQJCs4LFrhAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Amirouche Boubekki
<amirouche.boubekki at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why is bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com still not banned?

Because they?re posting via Usenet.  Google Groups, to be exact ? if
someone feels like it, go bug <groups-abuse at google.com>.

> 2013/12/13 <bv4bv4bv4 at gmail.com>
>
>> Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world especially since sept.
>> 11.
>>
>> An important article shows that every child is born on the "fitrah"
>> (natural inclination) of "Islam", the spread of Islam after September
>> eleventh and that it?s necessary to make an open communication between
>> Muslims & Non-Muslims for presenting a right picture about Islam .
>>
>> Salam Alaykum:
>>
>> Your question about the increase in the "reversion to Islam" is a good
>> one. You have given me the excuse to do something that I have wanted to do
>> for a long time. I have wanted to write on the subject of "Reverts to Islam
>> in Modern Times" and the message that it carries to all of us Muslims about
>> Islam TODAY.
>> BACK TO Islam?
>> Reverts to Islam In Modern Times
>>
>> "Revert" As Opposed to "Convert"
>>
>> I like to use the word "revert" as opposed to the word "convert" as it
>> more suits the occasion of a person returning back to his natural condition
>> at birth. The baby is born in true surrender, submission, obedience and
>> peace with his Creator. And this is the desirable position of the Muslim, to
>> be in peace and submission to the Will of Allah (God in English). Instead of
>> thinking in terms of "converting" people over to Islam, it is better
>> understood that they are simply returning back to their natural state at
>> birth. And this is from the teachings of our beloved prophet, Muhammad,
>> peace be upon him. (Muslims should always say "Peace be upon him/them" when
>> referring to any of the prophets).
>>
>> Like A Baby
>>
>> Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said: "Every child is born on the
>> "fitrah" (natural inclination) of "Islam" (surrender, submission and peace
>> to the Creator on His Terms). And it is their parents who raise them up to
>> be Jews, Christians or fire worshippers."
>>
>> Dr. Ted Campbell who is the professor of religion at the seminary school
>> in Maryland and I were both sharing the speakers platform last year in
>> Maryland University. At the closing of a very nice interfaith dialog there
>> came a strange question for both of us. Noah, the moderator said: "This last
>> question is for both speakers: "Why are each of you in your religion?"
>>
>> Dr. Campbell took his position in front of the microphone and then looked
>> around the room as he thought about the question. I will never forget his
>> words. He said: "I guess I would have to say that I am a Methodist because,
>> well because, my parents raised me that way. As a Methodist."
>>
>> He was right.
>>
>> That is what we know as Muslims. However, as I mentioned in my answer to
>> the same question: "And then some are brought back to their original state
>> as a baby." They are "reverted" to Islam by the Mercy of Allah.
>>
>> Actual or Factual Numbers of American Muslims
>>
>> Many people are claiming that twice as many, or three times or four times,
>> or even ten times as many people are coming into Islam as they did prior to
>> the events of September 11. Who could possibly know the numbers? We are not
>> even sure how many Muslims live here in America. I have heard the numbers
>> range from around 3,000,000 all the way up to 11,000,000. I'm sure that only
>> Allah Knows for sure how many Muslims there are in America.
>>
>> Rate of "Reversion"
>>
>> Actually, I can't give accurate statistics before or after the September
>> events. I have heard from some "experts" that Islam was the fastest growing
>> religion in the world prior to the September 11 events. I have no reason to
>> doubt it either. In the many Masjids around the United States and in the
>> many countries that I have been fortunate enough to visit I have found
>> thousands who have entered into Islam. The Anglican Church of England
>> expressed concern that if something does not change in the trend of new
>> Muslims in England that the Muslims will out number the Anglicans by the
>> year 2010.
>>
>> The number one name of the birth certificates for new born boys in England
>> was not John, or Michael, or William. It is "Muhammad." In Mexico, Sweden,
>> Denmark and Canada I have witnessed so many coming into Islam that I cannot
>> count them all. Everywhere I go I meet new Muslims. Prisons, universities
>> and even in the military I have personally seen thousands who came to Islam.
>> This is all before the events of September 11.
>>
>> More Exposure to the Message
>>
>> What I feel comfortable saying is that more and more people are being to
>> exposed to Islam all over the world. Whether or not the picture they are
>> receiving is painted correctly or not is not as important a factor as is the
>> fact that at long last many people on this planet are looking at Islam as
>> something very real. Therefore, when they ask about Islam some of the
>> information is stimulating feelings inside of the people. Naturally we are
>> going to see those who are stimulated to be against Islam. At the same time
>> you have to understand that there are a number of people who will take the
>> position that you cannot always believe everything in the news media. These
>> are the ones whom Allah guides to inquire and learn more.
>>
>> Allah is the Only Guide
>>
>> It is only Allah who Guides the people and it is only Allah who Misguides.
>> The biggest problem in the past used to be the lack of interest in Islam.
>> People were not interested in talking about Islam or any religion for that
>> matter, even their own. Now the problem is the lack of correct knowledge of
>> Islam. There simply was not anything about Islam out there.
>>
>> Then the events of the 1970s with the actions of some of the Iranians when
>> they hijacked airplanes and we saw on the news, men prostrating on the
>> ground outside the airplanes. We in the West learned a new word; "Shi'ism".
>> People said this is some strange religion (Islam). What is going on? Then
>> came the 1980s and we saw acts of terrorism that occurred in Palestine and
>> the words "fundamentalist" and "Muslim" became associated together.
>>
>> At the very beginning of the next decade we saw something take place in
>> Iraq and Kuwait. Again religion is brought into the picture. Not a pretty
>> picture, but a picture. Midway through the 1990s we saw big actions taking
>> place everywhere in the world. The Trade Center in New York, airplanes,
>> embassies, attacks and counter attacks. All along we are hearing something
>> about "Islam" and "Moslems." Still not very positive to say the least. Then
>> what occurred in September brought out more information, although distorted,
>> about this religion of the East.
>>
>> President Says "Islam is Peace"
>>
>> Every home, every business, every place on earth became exposed to this
>> religion called: "Islam." The president of the United States went on
>> television at a time when everyone who had a TV set was watching to see what
>> the United States Commander in Chief was going to say about the events of
>> September 11, and what US was going to do. His message contained a lot of
>> threats and promises about what the Americans were going to do to those who
>> committed these horrific acts of terrorism. But the words that stick in my
>> mind are the words that introduced Islam to a lot of people around the world
>> who had never heard of Islam before in their lives.
>>
>> The words of President G. W. Bush when he said: "Islam is a religion of
>> peace." Every single place on earth that could receive the broadcast signal
>> from the TV towers or the satellites orbiting the earth got the message. And
>> for those who were not so fortunate as to have a TV set, it was
>> simultaneously broadcast on every radio station in the world. And for those
>> who might have slept through the broadcast, it was rebroadcast over and
>> over. And then for those who did not speak English of course there was
>> translation. And then the written word took over where the broadcasting left
>> off. There was not a newspaper in the world except that it carried something
>> of the meaning of what Mr. Bush said on that occasion. It was a historical
>> speech. One that will go down in the books of history as the retaliation of
>> a nation against terrorism. He said it. "Islam IS A RELIGION OF PEACE."
>>
>> Divide Muslims
>>
>> Now we know that Mr. Bush is not promoting Islam by any stretch of the
>> imagination. However, he still could not afford to say something derogatory
>> against all the Muslims in the world by attacking Islam. That would then
>> unite all the Muslims against America (at least most of them).
>>
>> In fact it was to the advantage of the Americans to make statements that
>> would help divide the Muslims over the situation existing in Afghanistan and
>> the situation that was sure to occur. By making this statement, he left the
>> door open for the Muslims who did not want to see any problem between the
>> materialism of the West (which they personally enjoyed or would like to
>> enjoy) and the sacrificing of those who were willing to stand up against the
>> tyranny and oppression of the Western society and all that comes along with
>> it.
>>
>> So the strategy was to say things that made certain Muslims look bad while
>> at the same time not exactly attacking Islam. This led up to the next
>> desirable situation for shaytan (the devil): Divide the Muslims against each
>> other. So, now we had "mainstream Muslims" and "fundamentalist Muslims" and
>> "terrorist Islam" and "modern Islam." It worked too. The Muslims did the
>> thing that the non-Muslims could never have done. The Muslims defeated
>> themselves. Anytime that Muslims fight Muslims and Muslims kill Muslims,
>> then Allah's Protection is lifted from them and they will loose. That is
>> what happened.
>>
>> People Want to Know
>>
>> Still in the midst of all of this negative propaganda and bad press,
>> non-Muslim people were curious to learn more of this "cult" of Islam, its
>> people and their beliefs. Books about Islam and Muslims were disappearing
>> off the shelves of the bookstores faster than they could replenish them.
>> Unfortunately almost every single book was written either by a non-Muslim or
>> authors from the various deviant sects of Muslims. So the people were still
>> not getting the real message of the true Islam.
>>
>> Websites, chat rooms, email and message boards became alive with
>> information (and misinformation) about Islam, Muslims, Quran, Muhammad,
>> peace be upon him. Some people wanted to know the truth, others wanted to
>> hide it. Discussions and arguments about what Islam is about and what
>> Muslims do were very common place. This was the most exposure that these
>> subjects had ever had in the world at one time.
>>
>>
>> Open Communication Between Muslim & Non-Muslim
>>
>> The good news came when the various dialogs between the Muslims and
>> Christians began to take place. When the non-Muslims began to enter the
>> masjids and sit with the Muslims and shared together in discussions and
>> shared together enjoying the food and traditions of other cultures an
>> amazing thing began to happen. They opened their minds and their hearts to
>> the true message of the submission and surrender and obedience to the One
>> True God, Allah -- in Islam.
>>
>> Back to Islam
>>
>> Since September 11th, I have seen a huge increase in the interest of
>> people wanting to know about Islam and at the same time a marked increase in
>> the "dawah" (invitation) to Islam on the part of the Muslims around the
>> world. This is how the people are coming to Islam. The same way people have
>> come to Islam for 1,400 years. By learning the true message and being with
>> real Muslims. Those who are inclined to "revert" back to the natural state
>> of baby-like submission and peace with Allah, are finding their way back to
>> Islam.
>>
>>
>> Many New Muslims
>>
>> Islam today, is growing faster than ever. It is the Will of Allah, for
>> only He Guides. The people want to know. The interest is keen. The materials
>> are available in more simple terms in many languages. The Muslims are
>> starting to carry the responsibility of sharing the message of the true
>> "Peace With God in Islam."
>>
>> Islam In Every Home
>>
>> Somewhere in the middle of all of this is occurred to me an expression of
>> our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. When he said what might translate
>> to English as:
>>
>> "The Last Day will not come until Islam has entered every house on earth,
>> whether it is made of animal skins or from the earth."
>>
>>
>> http://www.islamhouse.com/185804/en/en/articles/Islam_is_the_fastest_growing_religion_in_the_world_especially_since_sept._11.
>>
>> http://www.islamtomorrow.com
>>
>> thank you
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 08:18:59 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 05:18:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
Message-ID: <01721890-9bbb-4c90-9668-11a73ef5ea8a@googlegroups.com>

my code :

#!/usr/bin/env python 

from bs4 import BeautifulSoup
import re,urllib2,urlparse, MySQLdb

def get_domain(url):
    return urlparse.urlparse(url).netloc


def men_tshirts2(main_link, cat_link,db,cursor):
    #print main_link
    for cat,link in cat_link.iteritems():
        cat = str(cat)
        #print cat, link 
        page = urllib2.urlopen(link)
        soup = BeautifulSoup(page)
        page.close()
        item = soup.find_all("div",attrs={"class":"itemTitle"})
        price = soup.find_all("div", attrs={"class":"itemPrice"})
        item_list =[]
        price_list =[]
        seller_list =[]

        for x,y in zip(item,price):
            item_content=str(x.a.string)
            price = str(y.p.string)
            link = str(x.a.get("href"))
            page =urllib2.urlopen(link)
            soup = BeautifulSoup(page)
            page.close()
            data = soup.find_all("span", attrs={"class":"mbg-nw"})
            seller = str(data[0].string)
            #print cat,item_content,price,seller
            gender = "men"
            sql = """insert into fashion(GENDER,links,category,item_content,price,seller) VAlUES('%s','%s','%s','%s','%s','s')"""

cursor.execute(sql,(gender,main_link,cat,item_content,price,seller))
            db.commit()
            #except:
            #    db.rollback()
            #print len(gender),len(main_link),len(cat),len(item_content),len(price),len(seller)



def men_tshirts(db,cursor):
    main_link = "http://fashion.ebay.in/index.html#men_tshirts"
    domane = get_domain(main_link)
    main_page = urllib2.urlopen(main_link)
    main_soup=BeautifulSoup(main_page)
    main_page.close()
    data = main_soup.find_all("div",attrs= {"class":"itmTitle"})
    price = main_soup.find_all("span",attrs={"class":"catlblTitle"})
    cat_link  = {}
    for x, y in zip(data, price):
        #cat= str(x.a.string)+":"+str(y.string)
        cat= str(x.a.string)
        link= "http://"+domane+"/"+str(x.a.get("href"))
        #print cat, link 
        cat_link[cat] = link

    men_tshirts2(main_link, cat_link,db,cursor)





if __name__=="__main__":
     db = MySQLdb.connect("localhost","root","india123","ebay_db" )
     cursor = db.cursor()
     men_tshirts(db,cursor)
     db.close()


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

sql structure :-                                                                                                                

mysql> describe fashion;
+--------------+--------------+------+-----+-------------------+----------------+
| Field        | Type         | Null | Key | Default           | Extra          |
+--------------+--------------+------+-----+-------------------+----------------+
| id           | int(11)      | NO   | PRI | NULL              | auto_increment |
| GENDER       | varchar(6)   | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| links        | varchar(255) | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| category     | varchar(255) | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| item_content | varchar(255) | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| price        | varchar(10)  | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| seller       | varchar(20)  | YES  |     | NULL              |                |
| created_on   | timestamp    | NO   |     | CURRENT_TIMESTAMP |                |
+--------------+--------------+------+-----+-------------------+----------------+
8 rows in set (0.00 sec)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

error:


    query = query % db.literal(args)
TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting


From airween at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 08:26:03 2013
From: airween at gmail.com (Ervin =?utf-8?Q?Heged=C3=BCs?=)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:26:03 +0100
Subject: TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
In-Reply-To: <01721890-9bbb-4c90-9668-11a73ef5ea8a@googlegroups.com>
References: <01721890-9bbb-4c90-9668-11a73ef5ea8a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131213132602.GA9453@arxnet.hu>

hello,

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 05:18:59AM -0800, Jai wrote:
>             sql = """insert into
>             fashion(GENDER,links,category,item_content,price,seller) \
> VAlUES('%s','%s','%s','%s','%s','s')"""
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

may be you miss a "%" sign?

>     query = query % db.literal(args)
> TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting


cheers:


a.




From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Dec 13 08:33:59 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:33:59 +0100
Subject: TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting
References: <01721890-9bbb-4c90-9668-11a73ef5ea8a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8f2b2$1tc$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jai wrote:

> my code :

>             sql = """insert into
>             fashion(GENDER,links,category,item_content,price,seller)
>             VAlUES('%s','%s','%s','%s','%s','s')"""
> cursor.execute(sql,(gender,main_link,cat,item_content,price,seller))

This looks very much like your previous mistake

(1) Don't put quotes around the placeholders. They are probably interpreted 
as string literals.

(2) The last placeholder is missing the %
 
> error:
> 
> 
>     query = query % db.literal(args)
> TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting

Note that we prefer to see complete tracebacks as this usually simplifies 
debugging a lot.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 11:45:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 03:45:35 +1100
Subject: Filtering and blocking (was Re: Islam is the spammiest subject line
 on python-list)
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrWZ3ii-6WrD2=rCe9hwu+dHt+jDEvOsmfKcg6vM2EAkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
> However, we've recently implemented filtering via the gateway, and I've
> just added bv4 to the list of banned addresses. (I'm not 100% sure I've
> got it right, so let's see if they make it in again).

What happens if someone else trips the filter (collateral damage)? Are
they informed that they're blocked, or does the post get black-holed?

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec 13 18:07:35 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 18:07:35 -0500
Subject: Filtering and blocking (was Re: Islam is the spammiest subject
 line on python-list)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrWZ3ii-6WrD2=rCe9hwu+dHt+jDEvOsmfKcg6vM2EAkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmrWZ3ii-6WrD2=rCe9hwu+dHt+jDEvOsmfKcg6vM2EAkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8g3vf$dq3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/13/2013 11:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Tim Golden <mail at timgolden.me.uk> wrote:
>> However, we've recently implemented filtering via the gateway, and I've
>> just added bv4 to the list of banned addresses. (I'm not 100% sure I've
>> got it right, so let's see if they make it in again).

Thank you Tim. Since bv4... is active again, I was about to either 
request 'someone' do that, or try to figure out how.

> What happens if someone else trips the filter (collateral damage)? Are
> they informed that they're blocked, or does the post get black-holed?

The spam filter is different from the block list. The block_list 
discards. Nikos was warned and informed before being added. I presume 
bv4 is just blocked. The spam filter sends to a human moderator who 
either accepts or discards. The filter is not currently tuned to catch 
CoC violations, such as personal insults, from otherwise normal posters. 
If it were, moderators could reject with explanation and suggestion to 
revise.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From lightaiyee at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 20:42:19 2013
From: lightaiyee at gmail.com (JL)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:42:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is it possible to mix python with php?
Message-ID: <cdeeb47d-ab8b-4e78-9be2-ded8552309a9@googlegroups.com>

Python is my favorite language. Very often, I am forced to use other languages like php because of better library support for web applications. Is it possible to write functions in python and then get php to call these functions?

Thank you


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 13 20:48:10 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:48:10 +1100
Subject: Is it possible to mix python with php?
In-Reply-To: <cdeeb47d-ab8b-4e78-9be2-ded8552309a9@googlegroups.com>
References: <cdeeb47d-ab8b-4e78-9be2-ded8552309a9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqRJc5=dOVcag0qhCZaQ=gBRB9jdxs7EdqFN14bQZBO7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 12:42 PM, JL <lightaiyee at gmail.com> wrote:
> Python is my favorite language. Very often, I am forced to use other languages like php because of better library support for web applications. Is it possible to write functions in python and then get php to call these functions?

What sort of libraries are you needing? Often you'll be able to call
on those libraries from Python directly (eg if they're written in C,
they may well have Python as well as PHP bindings). Have a look on
python.org and PyPI for what you're after - chances are it already
exists.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 13 21:36:36 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 21:36:36 -0500
Subject: Is it possible to mix python with php?
References: <cdeeb47d-ab8b-4e78-9be2-ded8552309a9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-52A945.21363613122013@news.panix.com>

In article <cdeeb47d-ab8b-4e78-9be2-ded8552309a9 at googlegroups.com>,
 JL <lightaiyee at gmail.com> wrote:

> Python is my favorite language. Very often, I am forced to use other 
> languages like php because of better library support for web applications. Is 
> it possible to write functions in python and then get php to call these 
> functions?

At one time, Songza was half PHP, half Python.  The parts ran in 
separate processes, communicating over HTTP.  I think that's probably 
what you want to do here.

If you define a clean, and well-documented interface, nobody has to know 
what language is running behind it.  Even better, if you have a 
comprehensive test suite for each interface, you can swap out 
implementations with a fair degree of confidence that you haven't broken 
anything.


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 07:12:16 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 04:12:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  , how
 should i proceed.
Message-ID: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>

GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.

There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer 


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 07:25:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:25:39 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqfdh534oUKjAyW=G6q5bW1ypcZME2gDGLFnbSm6yEX_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
>
> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer

There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more
popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK.
Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK,
and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of
the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build
everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it
and see what you like!

As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which
means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet
standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best
solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other
newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe
to the email list, which carries all the same content:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts.

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 14:24:36 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:24:36 -0800
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqfdh534oUKjAyW=G6q5bW1ypcZME2gDGLFnbSm6yEX_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqfdh534oUKjAyW=G6q5bW1ypcZME2gDGLFnbSm6yEX_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oVJD2XM99QhNYGwU3cAYAWSsnKE3-teB=XCN+BKfho4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:25 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
>>
>> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer
>
> There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more
> popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK.
> Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK,
> and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of
> the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build
> everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it
> and see what you like!

I also like GTK.  I thought it would be relevant to point out that
pygtk only works on Python 2.x; gi.repository.Gtk works on 2.x and
3.x.


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 07:46:33 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 04:46:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ea93733b-6f77-421a-9805-8a7c918db0be@googlegroups.com>


thank you sir 


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 14 12:42:00 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <04972c71-d4ee-4c16-a9f2-4e556f7d8e05@googlegroups.com>

On 12/14/2013 05:25 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
>>
>> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer
> 
> There are many ways to build a GUI with Python. Some of the more
> popular toolkits are Tk (tkinter), wxWidgets (wxpython), and GTK.
> Explore those and see which one you like; I personally quite like GTK,
> and the others have their fans too. There are GUI builders for each of
> the above (I think; definitely wx and GTK do), or you can build
> everything directly in code (my preferred style). Play around with it
> and see what you like!

For learning, tkinter is probably the easiest because it comes 
with Python and you don't need to install anything else.  The
best way to get started with it is to search for tutorials and
examples on web.  Searching for "python tkinter" on Amazon shows
a few books but I don't know anything about them.

wxPython currently runs only with Python2, not Python3.  There
is a drag-and-drop form designer available for it but it is a 
commercial product that costs money.  It also comes with a 
useable (once you get used to it) form builder tool that works
by graphically manipulating a text tree of widgets.

The other big, widely-used GUI toolkit is PyQt.  It runs on 
both Python2 and Python3.  There is another version of it
called PySide which is API compatible with PyQt but has 
different licensing terms.  PyQt comes with a very good 
drag-and-drop form designer.

I have played a little with both wxPython an PyQt and found 
learning to use them from the web difficult because of their 
size and complexity.  But both of them have pretty good books 
about them available:

  Rapid GUI Programming with Python and Qt (Summerfield)
    http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Python-Prentice-Software-Development/dp/0132354187

  WxPython in Action (Dunn and Rapin)
    http://www.amazon.com/Wxpython-Action-Noel-Rappin/dp/1932394621/

> As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which
> means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet
> standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best
> solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other
> newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe
> to the email list, which carries all the same content:
> 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts.

Chris and some other people here dislike Google Groups and 
try to imply that everyone here feels the same way.  Not true.

I and many other people here use Google Groups and have been 
doing so for years so if Google Groups works for you, please
feel free to continue using it.  

If you want to reduce the noise level from people like Chris
you might want to take a look at:

  https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 13:11:58 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:11:58 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <04972c71-d4ee-4c16-a9f2-4e556f7d8e05@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <04972c71-d4ee-4c16-a9f2-4e556f7d8e05@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8i71g$86j$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 17:42, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/14/2013 05:25 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> wxPython currently runs only with Python2, not Python3.  There
> is a drag-and-drop form designer available for it but it is a
> commercial product that costs money.  It also comes with a
> useable (once you get used to it) form builder tool that works
> by graphically manipulating a text tree of widgets.

Development versions which support Python 3 are available here 
http://wxpython.org/Phoenix/snapshot-builds/  Unfortunately they've not 
been updated since 3rd December.  I've asked why and been told that 
Robin Dunn is simply too busy.  There's Open Source for you :)

>
>> As a side point, though: You're using Google Groups to post, which
>> means your posts look messy, because GG doesn't follow internet
>> standards. Short of getting into Google and fixing Groups, the best
>> solution is to avoid using it; you can either use some other
>> newsreader (several here swear by Mozilla Thunderbird), or subscribe
>> to the email list, which carries all the same content:
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>> Either way will spare you and us the hassles of malformed posts.
>
> Chris and some other people here dislike Google Groups and
> try to imply that everyone here feels the same way.  Not true.
>
> I and many other people here use Google Groups and have been
> doing so for years so if Google Groups works for you, please
> feel free to continue using it.
>
> If you want to reduce the noise level from people like Chris
> you might want to take a look at:
>
>    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>

Of course I dislike Google Groups, users keep sending double spaced crap 
which I don't want to see.  There is no "noise level" from people like 
Chris, which obviously includes me.  There is a constant stream of 
polite requests not to send double spaced crap which we do not wish to 
see.  There are at least two solutions to this, follow the instructions 
in the link repeated above for the umpteenth time or use a different tool.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 15:10:24 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:10:24 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <04972c71-d4ee-4c16-a9f2-4e556f7d8e05@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4111.1387023943.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <04972c71-d4ee-4c16-a9f2-4e556f7d8e05@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ACBB30.2060404@gmail.com>

On 12/14/2013 10:42 AM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> The other big, widely-used GUI toolkit is PyQt.  It runs on 
> both Python2 and Python3.  There is another version of it
> called PySide which is API compatible with PyQt but has 
> different licensing terms.  PyQt comes with a very good 
> drag-and-drop form designer.

Just to be clear, PyQt does not provide the drag and drop form designer.
That comes from QtDesigner or QtCreator, which is part of Qt itself and
you can use it to design GUIs for use in any language that Qt has
bindings for, not just Python.  PyQt probably does come with a code
generator to convert the xml GUI definitions into Python, but these days
such use is discouraged in favor of using Qt itself to load the XML file
at runtime and build the objects on the fly for you.  It's way more
flexible and there's no code generation needed.  (Apple has done this
for years with Cocoa with their nib files in the bundle.)

> I have played a little with both wxPython an PyQt and found 
> learning to use them from the web difficult because of their 
> size and complexity.  But both of them have pretty good books 
> about them available:

Yes there are concepts you'll have to wrap your brain around such as how
to do proper widget layout.  Things aren't placed in a fixed way
usually.  They are allowed to grow and shrink with the window size.  And
you will have to grasp how events work.

Of all the APIs I've used, I think GTK in Python is the cleanest (PyGTK
or PyObject).  But if I was targeting Windows or Mac I'd stick with
PySides/PyQt.



From feliphil at gmx.net  Sat Dec 14 12:05:49 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:05:49 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>

> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
> 
> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should
> refer so that i don't waste time .

It depends on what you want to do with the GUI, since there are many
different GUI frameworks for Python.

E.g. If you absolutely need to run your applications on MacOS X, then
PyGTK is probably not the best choice. WingIDE, a popular IDE, has been
recently ported to PyQt, apparently for this reason. Besides, PyGTK
itself seems to be "shelved", PyGObject now (since GTK 3) seems to be
the "canonical" way to implement GTK GUIs in Python.

Tkinter is a bit "special" to use since it's not just a library, but
uses some kind of RPC. It seems that "look and feel" have been greatly
improved lately.

wxWidgets (wxPython) recently (since 2.9/3.0) got support for Cocoa,
it's native on the Mac. It's quite slim, but seems to be a "moving
target" API-wise, since the developers are not shy from breaking
compatibility. Is it compatible with Python 3 yet?

PyQt looks native everywhere, but it might be a bit overweight,
depending on what you want to do and where your applications need to
run.

And then there's the licensing issue, since PyQt, unlike Qt itself, is
not available under LGPL afaik. For closed-source commercial
applications, there seems to be a way to use a commercially licensed
PyQt (much less expensive than Qt itself) together with LGPL-Qt
however. Pyside would be a LGPL alternative to PyQt, but it doesn't
seem to be as up-to-date as PyQt.

And then, there are even more frameworks, such as Pygame, PyGUI, etc....

And each of these frameworks has dedicated mailinglists.

Personally I found it difficult to use any of the "wrapped" C++
frameworks without being able to understand the documentation made
for C++. :-(

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 12:54:28 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:54:28 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <l8i60m$u4l$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 17:05, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>
> wxWidgets (wxPython) recently (since 2.9/3.0) got support for Cocoa,
> it's native on the Mac. It's quite slim, but seems to be a "moving
> target" API-wise, since the developers are not shy from breaking
> compatibility. Is it compatible with Python 3 yet?
>

This is one of the goals of the so called Phoenix project 
http://wiki.wxpython.org/ProjectPhoenix

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 15:01:58 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:01:58 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <52ACB936.3020000@gmail.com>

On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> Tkinter is a bit "special" to use since it's not just a library, but
> uses some kind of RPC. It seems that "look and feel" have been greatly
> improved lately.

I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language.  With Tkinter in
Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood?  IE embeds the Tcl
language interpreter into Python's interpreter?  If so I've always found
it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with
Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood.


From nad at acm.org  Sat Dec 14 15:36:26 2013
From: nad at acm.org (Ned Deily)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:36:26 -0800
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <52ACB936.3020000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <nad-8197E1.12362614122013@news.gmane.org>

In article <52ACB936.3020000 at gmail.com>, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> > Tkinter is a bit "special" to use since it's not just a library, but
> > uses some kind of RPC. It seems that "look and feel" have been greatly
> > improved lately.
> I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language.  With Tkinter in
> Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood?  IE embeds the Tcl
> language interpreter into Python's interpreter?

Yes, it does.

> If so I've always found
> it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with
> Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood.

It is a bit strange but, back in the day, there wasn't a better multi-platform 
GUI option and, even today, Tk (and Tcl) remain attractive because it is 
supported on the many important platforms and does not have the license issues 
that some other GUI toolkits have had.  And because of inertia.  Also, Python 
is not alone in this: Perl and Ruby also have Tk bindings that work the same 
way, AFAIK.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad at acm.org



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec 14 16:00:55 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:00:55 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52ACB936.3020000@gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <52ACB936.3020000@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8igtv$b0p$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/14/2013 3:01 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> Tkinter is a bit "special" to use since it's not just a library, but
>> uses some kind of RPC. It seems that "look and feel" have been greatly
>> improved lately.
>
> I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language.

Tcl is the language. Its standard interpreter is written in C, as with 
Python. (I do not know if there are other Tcl implementations.) Tk is 
the gui framework written, I believe, in a mixture of Tcl and C.

Tkinter (Tk interface) is entirely a Python to Tcl/Tk and back interface.

> With Tkinter in Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood?

Yes.  _tkinter.c defines Python-callable functions that call Tcl/Tk C 
api functions. tkinter.py defines Python classes and methods. The 
methods call _tkinter functions. Most of the classes correspond to Tk 
widgets such as Button and Text.

> IE embeds the Tcl language interpreter into Python's interpreter?

Both interpreters run in one process.

 > If so I've always found
> it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with
> Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood.

Tcl/Tk is only shipped with the Windows Python installer. On other 
systems, it is a separate install if not already present.

There once (over 10 years ago) was a project to re-write Tk entirely in 
C. What I read it that people decided that Tk made too much use of Tcl 
functions to make that worthwhile.

There have been starts on projects to write a gui framework based on 
Python and wrapped C libraries. PyGui is one, last updated July 2011.
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/python_gui/

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 15:04:12 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:04:12 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <52ACB9BC.1040405@gmail.com>

On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> PyQt looks native everywhere, but it might be a bit overweight,
> depending on what you want to do and where your applications need to
> run.
> 
> And then there's the licensing issue, since PyQt, unlike Qt itself, is
> not available under LGPL afaik. For closed-source commercial
> applications, there seems to be a way to use a commercially licensed
> PyQt (much less expensive than Qt itself) together with LGPL-Qt
> however. Pyside would be a LGPL alternative to PyQt, but it doesn't
> seem to be as up-to-date as PyQt.

I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is
more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects.  I would
recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project.


From jeremy at jeremysanders.net  Mon Dec 16 03:28:56 2013
From: jeremy at jeremysanders.net (Jeremy Sanders)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:28:56 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <52ACB9BC.1040405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8mdi5$dsu$1@ger.gmane.org>

Michael Torrie wrote:

> I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is
> more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects.  I would
> recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project.

That's not the impression I get from the PySide mailing lists. Work seems 
slow now everyone is a volunteer. For example, Qt 5 is not yet supported 
(there's no effort towards this according to the mailing list) and bugs seem 
to take a long time to be fixed. PyQt support is much better, even when I'm 
using it for a free project.

Jeremy





From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 14 17:59:12 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 14 Dec 2013 22:59:12 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 13:01:58 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

> On 12/14/2013 10:05 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> Tkinter is a bit "special" to use since it's not just a library, but
>> uses some kind of RPC. It seems that "look and feel" have been greatly
>> improved lately.
> 
> I know Tkinter originated with the Tcl/Tk language.  With Tkinter in
> Python is it still using Tcl/Tk under the hood?  IE embeds the Tcl
> language interpreter into Python's interpreter?  If so I've always found
> it a bit strange that the de facto GUI library that's shipped with
> Python ships an entirely different language with it under the hood.

That's just the "Interpreter" design pattern, except the Domain Specific 
Language is already written for you :-)

(I'm half-serious here.)

But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find that 
*every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different 
language under the hood, usually C. Even if the top level of the 
framework is written in Python, the underlying graphics routines used for 
drawing controls and windows will surely not be. Given that the actual 
maintenance of the GUI itself is unlikely to be a bottleneck in any real 
application, I don't think it is a significant problem efficiency-wise 
that Python tkinter relies on an intermediate framework written in Tcl.



-- 
Steven


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Sun Dec 15 09:53:45 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:53:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find that 
> *every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different 
> language under the hood, usually C.

Name one GUI framework that ships with a C implementation.

> Even if the top level of the framework is written in Python, the
> underlying graphics routines used for drawing controls and windows
> will surely not be.

You seem to be equating "was compiled from" with "includes an
implemenation of".  Do you say that CPython "ships with C"?

-- 
Grant


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 15 12:01:53 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 15 Dec 2013 17:01:53 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:53:45 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info>
> wrote:
> 
>> But more seriously, 100% seriously in fact, I think that you'll find
>> that *every* GUI framework for Python ships with an entirely different
>> language under the hood, usually C.
> 
> Name one GUI framework that ships with a C implementation.

Er, all of them? I daresay that Tcl itself eventually calls graphics 
routines written in C. There's not that many languages that commonly get 
used for low-level graphics routines, but C is one of them.

If you mean, ships with a C *compiler*, or even a C interpreter, then no, 
probably not. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of those GUI frameworks 
are powerful enough to count as mini-languages in their own right.


>> Even if the top level of the framework is written in Python, the
>> underlying graphics routines used for drawing controls and windows will
>> surely not be.
> 
> You seem to be equating "was compiled from" with "includes an
> implemenation of".  Do you say that CPython "ships with C"?

Well, when you take my comments out of their context, that does seem to 
be a totally stupid thing to say. But in context, it's only *mostly* 
stupid, and mostly stupid means a little bit sensible *wink*

The context was a complaint, or at least expression of surprise, that 
Python use Tcl for a GUI, this being contrasted with (paraphrasing the 
legions of people who have expressed surprise about this in the past) 
"some hypothetical GUI written in Python". But in practice, it won't be 
written in Python, it will be likely written in C or some other low-level 
language with some interface to Python. The main difference between this 
hypothetical "Python GUI" and Tcl is that Tcl is a Turing-complete 
interpreter which lives in it's own process. 

[Aside: I wonder how many other GUI toolkits are Turing complete?]

As I stated earlier, this is just the Interpreter design pattern, with 
the minor complication that the domain specific language happens to be an 
existing language, Tcl, with an interpreter that usually runs in a 
separate process, instead of some mini-language running inside Python.

So I don't see anything surprising about Tkinter (or for that matter, 
Ruby and it's bindings to Tcl/Tk). Maybe it's because I'm used to Unix/
Linux systems, where it is common for tools that execute in one 
interpreter to call other tools which execute in a different interpreter. 
E.g. a shell script which calls a Ruby script which calls some command 
which happens to be written in Python. Python, after all, was originally 
invented to be a glue language, and I don't really see anything weird 
about Python delegating work to Tcl any more than I see anything strange 
about IronPython delegating work to the .Net runtime.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 17:06:09 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:06:09 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoyJGjP0+XAxQMyKi=tb6zWQQsegCEkTTnZATeS9xPbMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 4:01 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> As I stated earlier, this is just the Interpreter design pattern, with
> the minor complication that the domain specific language happens to be an
> existing language, Tcl, with an interpreter that usually runs in a
> separate process, instead of some mini-language running inside Python.

Yeah, but there's a difference between passing your GUI incantations
on to a library function (written in C but now just part of a binary
library) and feeding them to a completely different language
interpreter. When I write something with PyGTK, I can't, even in
theory, give it arbitrary C code to execute. From what I understand
here, that *is* true of Tcl, which means that the Python download
contains a Python interpreter and a Tcl interpreter. I'm not saying
that's a bad thing to do, but it is calculated to provoke remark.

ChrisA


From kw at codebykevin.com  Mon Dec 16 09:55:20 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:55:20 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/15/13, 5:06 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Yeah, but there's a difference between passing your GUI incantations
> on to a library function (written in C but now just part of a binary
> library) and feeding them to a completely different language
> interpreter. When I write something with PyGTK, I can't, even in
> theory, give it arbitrary C code to execute. From what I understand
> here, that *is* true of Tcl, which means that the Python download
> contains a Python interpreter and a Tcl interpreter. I'm not saying
> that's a bad thing to do, but it is calculated to provoke remark.

Yes, a Tkinter app has both a Python interpreter and an underlying Tcl 
interpreter. Let's be clear about that.

The technical reason for this is that, during Python's early 
development, Tk was the simplest, most powerful and OSS-friendly GUI 
toolkit out there (compared to, let's say, Motif). Its reliance on Tcl 
was a plus because Tcl's C API is exceptionally clean and easy to 
embed/call from other C libraries (that was Tcl's original main focus, 
embedding in C).

Embedding the Tcl interpreter remains a sound decision today. It makes 
it trivial to keep Tkinter updated in sync with Tk updates, since the 
Tcl interpreter does most of the heavy lifting. The recent effort to 
wrap Tk's new themed widgets is a good one: nearly all of the work was 
done at the Python level. Compare this approach to Perl's original one, 
which stripped out Tcl and implemented Tk integration entirely in C. Any 
updates require heavy lifting in C and, in fact, Perl/Tk has not kept up 
with Tk's main line of development (it does not run natively on the Mac, 
for instance).

Calling through Tkinter to Tcl also provides some other conveniences. If 
you're writing a Tkinter app and want to access some platform-specific 
functionality that requires C calls, that may require a library 
extension written against Tcl/Tk's C API (i.e. the Mac's NSServices 
API--that can't be accessed using ctypes because it hooks into the 
window server). Fortunately, Tk is very easy to extend in C--much 
simpler than extending wxWidgets or Qt.

Finally, Tcl is itself a fully-featured, general programming language 
that is a peer to Python both generationally and in terms of its 
capabilities; the main way it lags is in the size of its development 
community. In other words, you are not handing the ball off to a 
90-pound weakling if you need to call into Tcl from Python via Tkinter. ;-)

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 10:20:04 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 02:20:04 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqGia6HwZwWAfCV3hvnZuJ-p+DCOcAGvnY=-nz83whguA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Kevin Walzer <kw at codebykevin.com> wrote:
> Finally, Tcl is itself a fully-featured, general programming language that
> is a peer to Python both generationally and in terms of its capabilities;
> the main way it lags is in the size of its development community. In other
> words, you are not handing the ball off to a 90-pound weakling if you need
> to call into Tcl from Python via Tkinter. ;-)

Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is
definitely inferior to Python. I'd much rather work with Python
itself. :)

ChrisA


From kw at codebykevin.com  Mon Dec 16 10:32:13 2013
From: kw at codebykevin.com (Kevin Walzer)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:32:13 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>

On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is
> definitely inferior to Python.

Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your 
perspective.

(I studied PSL--Python as a Second Language--so develop in it with a 
slight accent. I'm a native Tcl developer, for better or worse.)

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 11:10:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 03:10:51 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrb8OcdDxLKX5pCSwtPpDHUd+7TGK0kKQQUzTCq=QRFhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Kevin Walzer <kw at codebykevin.com> wrote:
> On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is
>> definitely inferior to Python.
>
>
> Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your
> perspective.
>
> (I studied PSL--Python as a Second Language--so develop in it with a slight
> accent. I'm a native Tcl developer, for better or worse.)

Here's the Tcl procedure that I tweaked. This is from gitk; I find the
word diff not all that useful, but a character diff at times is very
useful. I haven't found a way to configure the word diff regex through
gitk's options, so I tweaked it in the source code.

proc getblobdiffs {ids} {
    global blobdifffd diffids env
    global diffinhdr treediffs
    global diffcontext
    global ignorespace
    global worddiff
    global limitdiffs vfilelimit curview
    global diffencoding targetline diffnparents
    global git_version currdiffsubmod

    set textconv {}
    if {[package vcompare $git_version "1.6.1"] >= 0} {
        set textconv "--textconv"
    }
    set submodule {}
    if {[package vcompare $git_version "1.6.6"] >= 0} {
        set submodule "--submodule"
    }
    set cmd [diffcmd $ids "-p $textconv $submodule  -C --cc
--no-commit-id -U$diffcontext"]
    if {$ignorespace} {
        append cmd " -w"
    }
    if {$worddiff ne [mc "Line diff"]} {
        append cmd " --word-diff=porcelain --word-diff-regex=."
    }
    if {$limitdiffs && $vfilelimit($curview) ne {}} {
        set cmd [concat $cmd -- $vfilelimit($curview)]
    }
    if {[catch {set bdf [open $cmd r]} err]} {
        error_popup [mc "Error getting diffs: %s" $err]
        return
    }
    set targetline {}
    set diffnparents 0
    set diffinhdr 0
    set diffencoding [get_path_encoding {}]
    fconfigure $bdf -blocking 0 -encoding binary -eofchar {}
    set blobdifffd($ids) $bdf
    set currdiffsubmod ""
    filerun $bdf [list getblobdiffline $bdf $diffids]
}

First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment
("set diffinhdr 0"), which is very shell-style and not very
programming-style. Can live with that, though even shells can use
equals signs for simplicity. Similarly, the shell style of adorning
variable usage feels messy. There are string literals, some of which
contain interpolated variables; there are dollar-sign adorned
variables; and then there are other words. What are the other words?
Are they implicit strings (as they would be in, say, bash)? I've never
really liked that style. Anyway. Can get past that.

Secondly, what does this do?
    if {$worddiff ne [mc "Line diff"]}

I *think* it means 'if $worddiff is not equal to "Line diff" (this
code is executed for the options "Markup words" and "Color words", but
what's the mc do? How am I supposed to figure out what it does? Where
do I begin to look?

This is where, IMO, Python tends to be a lot clearer. It's easy to see
what's an object and what's a method on it, and every bare word is
either a local name or a standard built-in name. I'm sure Tcl's a
great language, but I'd rather not have to drop out of Python into it
if I can help it. :)

ChrisA


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 16 11:46:33 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:46:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Kevin Walzer <kw at codebykevin.com> wrote:
>> On 12/16/13, 10:20 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> Having made a tweak to gitk at one point, I have to say Tcl is
>>> definitely inferior to Python.
>>
>>
>> Without starting a flame war, can you elaborate? I'm curious about your
>> perspective.

I wrote a few Tcl apps once many, many years ago.  After attempting to
write something more than a few hundred lines long, I gave up and
swore off Tcl completely.  I switched to Scheme, and later to Python.

The things I found infuriating about Tcl:

  * The "everything is a string" view of the world is severly
    limiting if you're not just processing strings.

  * The quoting syntax and semantics appears to have been invented by
    somebody at the CIA as a way to torture programmers into doing...
    something... I don't know what.

  * Tcl doesn't seem to have any sort of coherent design or philosophy
    behind it but rather consists of a bunch of hacks piled on top of
    a simple and limited shell-like string processing language.  It
    sort of feels like PHP in that regard.

When I finally gave up fighting with Tcl's quoting semantics half way
through a medium/small application and switched to Scheme/Tk, I had my
app written from scratch in a fraction of the time it took to get
about half way done in Tcl, and with about 1/3 the lines of code.

Python probably would have cut both hours and lines by half again
compared to Scheme.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'd like some JUNK
                                  at               FOOD ... and then I want to
                              gmail.com            be ALONE --


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 11:52:38 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 03:52:38 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo8-+VaK+W7Tnw1SBKbAdFRUkD5f7Eaax-K5cej6PKgWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>   * The "everything is a string" view of the world is severly
>     limiting if you're not just processing strings.

I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there
any aggregate types at all?

ChrisA


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 16 12:04:01 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:04:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4223.1387212762.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>   * The "everything is a string" view of the world is severly
>>     limiting if you're not just processing strings.
>
> I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there
> any aggregate types at all?

There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! hubub, hubub, HUBUB,
                                  at               hubub, hubub, hubub, HUBUB,
                              gmail.com            hubub, hubub, hubub.


From auriocus at gmx.de  Mon Dec 16 17:12:27 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:12:27 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4223.1387212762.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l8ntsa$o5d$1@dont-email.me>

Am 16.12.13 18:04, schrieb Grant Edwards:
> On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid at invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>    * The "everything is a string" view of the world is severly
>>>      limiting if you're not just processing strings.
>>
>> I wasn't sure if that was the case, from what I was seeing. Are there
>> any aggregate types at all?
>
> There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries).

Aggregate types are indeed a weak point, but still there are lists 
(since ever) and dicts (since 8.5, ~6 years) with value semantics. 
Arrays are distinct from dicts and provide no value semantics, i.e. you 
cannot pass them around. Today these issues are overcome by using dicts 
or some OO framework.

	Christian





From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Dec 16 17:37:37 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:37:37 +1300
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4223.1387212762.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <bh9dljFoae7U1@mid.individual.net>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Are there
>> any aggregate types at all?
> 
> There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries).

Well... sort of. They can only hold strings, not other arrays.
They're not first-class entities: you can't pass them around
or keep them in local variables; they're always global. (And
there are no modules, so global is *truly* global.)

In short, they're a very poor substitute for having real data
structures.

-- 
Greg


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 16 23:27:55 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:27:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nap9$6hf$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <mailman.4223.1387212762.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8nbq1$6f3$1@reader1.panix.com> <bh9dljFoae7U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <l8ojsb$12o$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-16, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-12-16, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Are there
>>> any aggregate types at all?
>> 
>> There are arrays with string keys (similar to Python dictionaries).
>
> Well... sort of. They can only hold strings, not other arrays.
> They're not first-class entities: you can't pass them around
> or keep them in local variables; they're always global. (And
> there are no modules, so global is *truly* global.)

It's worse that I remembered -- I must have repressed most of
my Tcl memories.

> In short, they're a very poor substitute for having real data
> structures.

-- 
Grant



From auriocus at gmx.de  Mon Dec 16 17:06:01 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:06:01 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8ntg8$lpt$1@dont-email.me>

Let the flame war begin!
Am 16.12.13 17:10, schrieb Chris Angelico:
> Here's the Tcl procedure that I tweaked. This is from gitk; I find the
> word diff not all that useful, but a character diff at times is very
> useful. I haven't found a way to configure the word diff regex through
> gitk's options, so I tweaked it in the source code.
>
> proc getblobdiffs {ids} {
>      global blobdifffd diffids env
>      global diffinhdr treediffs
>      global diffcontext
>      global ignorespace
>      global worddiff
>      global limitdiffs vfilelimit curview
>      global diffencoding targetline diffnparents
>      global git_version currdiffsubmod
> .....

 > }

I'm a long time Tcl developer who has just picked up Python recently; so 
my view is tinted from the other side.

First off, gitk is a huge unstructured mess. You are not obliged to 
write programs like this in Tcl, at least not today. All these global 
statements give already a hint, that this is a procedural thing. Think 
of Python, where classes are stripped. Tcl has object oriented 
frameworks for years. If you use Snit, e.g., all those globals are not 
needed because they are really instance variables.

> First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment
> ("set diffinhdr 0"), which is very shell-style and not very
> programming-style.

This is just syntax and purely a matter of taste.

> Can live with that, though even shells can use
> equals signs for simplicity. Similarly, the shell style of adorning
> variable usage feels messy. There are string literals, some of which
> contain interpolated variables; there are dollar-sign adorned
> variables; and then there are other words. What are the other words?
> Are they implicit strings (as they would be in, say, bash)?

Yes, they are, and it doesn't feel strange if you are used to it. Tcl's 
syntax rules are very compact. Tclers see this as an advantage.

> Secondly, what does this do?
>      if {$worddiff ne [mc "Line diff"]}
>
> I *think* it means 'if $worddiff is not equal to "Line diff" (this
> code is executed for the options "Markup words" and "Color words", but
> what's the mc do?

It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of 
the key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which 
translates i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like 
complaining about indentation in Python.

> This is where, IMO, Python tends to be a lot clearer. It's easy to see
> what's an object and what's a method on it, and every bare word is
> either a local name or a standard built-in name. I'm sure Tcl's a
> great language, but I'd rather not have to drop out of Python into it
> if I can help it. :)

Python has some advantages over Tcl. To name a few, references, list 
comprehensions, real classes, clean module support, extensive extensions 
such as matplotlib/scipy. But Tcl also has some strengths.

First off, the syntax is quite flexible, and so things like list 
comprehensions[1] or classes[2] can be implemented in Tcl itself. 
Second, it's great at interactive use because at a command prompt, you 
don't want to type all those () call operators, "quotes" and obey 
indentation just to get a simple loop running. Third, its implementation 
features a few unique things:

* Stubs. Compile a C extension against 8.1 and load it into 8.6. This 
actually works. 8.1 was nearly 15 years ago!

* Safe interpreters. Sometimes requested here for Python, you can create 
a slave interpreter in Tcl that is restricted and cannot do disk I/O, 
has limited execution time etc. You can precisely control which commands 
are passed on to the slave.

* Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread 
safe and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently. 
This is accessible from script level through the Threads package.

* Very easy deployment: Starkits/Tclkits bundle an interpreter within a 
single executable. Similar to what pyinstaller does. But in my 
experience, it's much easier to pack all dependencies into a starkit 
than it is with pyinstaller. You can get a rather full-fledged 
interpreter with GUI support into a few megabytes, and I've never seen 
it fail.

Happy flaming,

	Christian

[1] http://wiki.tcl.tk/12574
[2] http://wiki.tcl.tk/3963



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 17:40:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:40:00 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8ntg8$lpt$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoiGtEhEZF3pG0KN5nuvimSgiGTCHzXtmOcWbYGN-2O_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
> Let the flame war begin!

I'll try to avoid flamage :)

> First off, gitk is a huge unstructured mess. You are not obliged to write
> programs like this in Tcl, at least not today. All these global statements
> give already a hint, that this is a procedural thing. Think of Python, where
> classes are stripped. Tcl has object oriented frameworks for years. If you
> use Snit, e.g., all those globals are not needed because they are really
> instance variables.

Ah, okay. Don't take gitk as representative. Got it. Unfortunately
there are quite a few languages that I've experienced from, really,
only one program that I've tried to modify (Scheme almost falls in
that category too - all I've ever used it for is LilyPond scripting,
and not much of that), and I'm aware that's not really a fair look at
the language.

>> First off, everything's done with commands, rather than assignment
>> ("set diffinhdr 0"), which is very shell-style and not very
>> programming-style.
>
> This is just syntax and purely a matter of taste.

Yeah. Like I said,

>> Can live with that

. But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or
two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application
language. When a program is the size of gitk (>10KLOC), the benefits
relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less
significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more
obscure features become more significant.

> It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of the
> key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which translates
> i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like complaining about
> indentation in Python.

Okay. Now, how am I to figure out where this command comes from? It's
not a host command (typing "mc" at the bash prompt comes up failure),
and it's not defined in the script itself (at least, I can't find
"proc mc" anywhere); is it a Tcl built-in? Where do I start looking?

(Yes, I'm aware this is a problem in any language. I'm not now raising
a point in the Python vs Tcl debate, I'm just asking out of
curiosity.)

> Tcl also has some strengths.
>
> First off, the syntax is quite flexible, and so things like list
> comprehensions[1] or classes[2] can be implemented in Tcl itself. Second,
> it's great at interactive use because at a command prompt, you don't want to
> type all those () call operators, "quotes" and obey indentation just to get
> a simple loop running. Third, its implementation features a few unique
> things:

Yeah, that's nice for the interactive interpreter... but I already
have bash for that, and Python's not far off. I've used interactive
Pike and REXX interpreters, which are both more demanding than Python
(in terms of syntax requirements and such), so I'm perfectly happy
with Python; but if you're used to something even lighter, then sure,
use something that lets you type almost nothing. No problem. I just
think that - as mentioned above - a ten thousand line program should
be aiming more at maintainability than ease of manual typing.

> * Safe interpreters. Sometimes requested here for Python, you can create a
> slave interpreter in Tcl that is restricted and cannot do disk I/O, has
> limited execution time etc. You can precisely control which commands are
> passed on to the slave.

Cool. Not enough for me to choose the language unless I really REALLY
needed that feature, but there was one time in my programming career
when that was true, so we'll count that a win.

> * Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread safe
> and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently. This is
> accessible from script level through the Threads package.

Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of
what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate
GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by
another thread?

> * Very easy deployment: Starkits/Tclkits bundle an interpreter within a
> single executable. Similar to what pyinstaller does. But in my experience,
> it's much easier to pack all dependencies into a starkit than it is with
> pyinstaller. You can get a rather full-fledged interpreter with GUI support
> into a few megabytes, and I've never seen it fail.

Never really needed this, but for the people who do, I'm sure that's a
fairly big deal.

So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put
against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class
object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly
differentiates names and strings without making variable references
look like a lot more than they are.

Huge room in the world for both languages to exist and thrive.

ChrisA

[1] What is an etc() in Python?


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 16 19:10:39 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:10:39 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoiGtEhEZF3pG0KN5nuvimSgiGTCHzXtmOcWbYGN-2O_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
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 <CAPTjJmoiGtEhEZF3pG0KN5nuvimSgiGTCHzXtmOcWbYGN-2O_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8o4pl$pql$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/2013 5:40 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of
> what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate
> GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by
> another thread?

When running tk via tkinter, limiting tkinter/tk calls to the main 
thread is the safest thing to do. I do not know whether the problems 
people have had doing otherwise are due to Python or inherent in tk itself.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 23:21:18 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:21:18 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8ntg8$lpt$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n6dv$tg5$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4221.1387210260.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8ntg8$lpt$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l8ojf2$9gs$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 22:06, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Let the flame war begin!
>

Surely proper flame wars should have inflammatory titles like this 
https://archive.org/details/SeanKellyRecoveryfromAddiction ?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From auriocus at gmx.de  Tue Dec 17 04:33:46 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:33:46 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4240.1387233610.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4219.1387207214.18130.python-list@python.org>
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 <mailman.4240.1387233610.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8p5pq$sp2$1@dont-email.me>

Am 16.12.13 23:40, schrieb Chris Angelico:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
>> Let the flame war begin!
>
> I'll try to avoid flamage :)

:) So let's vigorously discuss about facts;)

> But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or
> two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application
> language. When a program is the size of gitk (>10KLOC), the benefits
> relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less
> significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more
> obscure features become more significant.

I do not know, whether bash has means to structure large programs, I 
suppose not. Tcl has (see below), and concerning discoverability, see 
also below.

>> It does command substitution (indeed the brackets [] do) and is one of the
>> key concepts of Tcl. mc is probably the command from msgcat which translates
>> i18n strings. Complaining about these basic things is like complaining about
>> indentation in Python.
>
> Okay. Now, how am I to figure out where this command comes from? It's
> not a host command (typing "mc" at the bash prompt comes up failure),
> and it's not defined in the script itself (at least, I can't find
> "proc mc" anywhere); is it a Tcl built-in? Where do I start looking?

Usually, I run the program in tkcon, an excellent interactive shell for 
Tcl. There you type "edit mc", and it shows you the definition, plus you 
can change it, send it back to the program and see how the modified 
program behaves now (without restarting it!) Under the hood, it executes 
commands like "info commands", "info args", "info body", which do the 
work. If it tells you that there is no such thing as "mc", it came from 
a compiled extension (a C procedure). Indeed, in this case you are out 
of luck, to my knowledge there is no info which extension loads that 
thing. But you could observe it before startup by putting up a command 
trace (some sort of callback) on "mc".

In the gitk case, mc comes from these lines:

	package require msgcat
	namespace import ::msgcat::mc

Now, be prepared: These lines do almost the same as

	import msgcat
	from msgcat import mc

would do in Python.

*What is this? I heard Tcl has no modules?* Don't listen to these 
people, today (well, namespaces exist since 8.0, 1997, packages date 
back further) you can use namespaces and packages to structure your 
programs and separate data. And because Tcl is highly introspective, you 
can ask about almost everything:

(src) 61 % namespace import
mc
(src) 62 % namespace origin mc
::msgcat::mc
(src) 63 %

(there is only one imported command in gitk, namespace import returns a 
list)


About globals: Yes "global" gives you a true global, but namespaces have 
namespace variables, which you should use instead. The awkward thing is 
that you need to import these (as the globals) into every proc which 
uses them, but by using an OO framework such as Snit, this burden is 
taken away from the programmer.

Still Python *has* advantages here. If there is a docstring, you can get 
help() about the unknown thing, it has a type() and in Tcl, the package 
author is responsible for wrapping the package content into a namespace. 
Something like "import Tkinter as Tk" is not possible in Tcl (well, you 
could rename the namespace, but if not carefully written, it may break 
the package).

>> * Interpreters in threads. There is no GIL, Tcl interpreters are thread safe
>> and more than one can coexist in a process and run concurrently. This is
>> accessible from script level through the Threads package.
>
> Nice, though Python's threading and/or multiprocessing can do 90% of
> what people want. Side point: What about Tk? Can you (a) run separate
> GUI threads for separate windows? (b) manipulate widgets created by
> another thread?

You can't run Tk more than once, that applies to almost every toolkit I 
know. But you can pass a message to the main thread to do it for you. 
This is quite easy; it looks like

thread::send -async $main [list doit $somedata]

You pass an arbitrary Tcl command which executes in the main thread as 
soon as it is idle. In fact, because of the embedded event loop in Tcl 
(not bound to Tk), you rarely need threads at all. Asynchronous I/O is 
very easy in Tcl (fileevent command).

That one question here with replicating nc to control a device would be 
a textbook example of fileevent usage in Tcl.

> So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put
> against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class
> object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly
> differentiates names and strings without making variable references
> look like a lot more than they are.

Lists and dicts exist in Tcl as first class objects. You just can't tell 
them apart from strings. Sets are in tcllib. Python is more strongly 
typed than Tcl in that respect, which can be an advantage. Specifically 
doing math is easier in an evaluation based syntax than in a command 
based syntax, this sometimes sucks in Tcl.

> Huge room in the world for both languages to exist and thrive.

Yes, you name it. I wish people who criticize Tcl would not use their 
knowledge from 15 years ago; that beast has evolved. I'm not complaining 
about Python 1.0 either. And I wish Tcl would be used more often for 
large-scale programs, such that the idioms really develop.


	Christian

> [1] What is an etc() in Python?

Is this a quizzy question? I have no idea.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 08:19:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:19:51 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8p5pq$sp2$1@dont-email.me>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4152.1387145178.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l8n48p$fmn$1@dont-email.me>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoSMgTa9nJ0rY+L1MpnTU0U_XKcWSKaA596ZDgkLpZMLg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:33 PM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> wrote:
> Am 16.12.13 23:40, schrieb Chris Angelico:
>> But my rule of thumb with bash scripts is: If it exceeds a page or
>> two in length, it's probably time it got rewritten in an application
>> language. When a program is the size of gitk (>10KLOC), the benefits
>> relating to interactive use (as you mention below) become less
>> significant, and benefits relating to discoverability of the more
>> obscure features become more significant.
>
> I do not know, whether bash has means to structure large programs, I suppose
> not. Tcl has (see below), and concerning discoverability, see also below.

You can create functions, which then effectively become new commands.
You can source (the . command) another file, which mostly is a
#include style of thing. But mainly, a bash script is doing exactly
what would happen at the interactive shell (modulo environment
differences - your interactive shell might well have a different $PATH
or something, but command execution still follows the same rules). If
I look at a bash script and see it execute "bc", I can type "man bc"
and have a reasonable chance of it being the same thing.

> In the gitk case, mc comes from these lines:
>
>         package require msgcat
>         namespace import ::msgcat::mc
>
> Now, be prepared: These lines do almost the same as
>
>         import msgcat
>         from msgcat import mc
>
> would do in Python.

Okay. Now that you've told me that, I can find those lines... down the
very bottom of the script. The first thing I did when trying to figure
this out was to go to the top of the file and search for "mc", and I
didn't find a definition.

In Python, it's conventional to put imports at the top, so this would
have worked. (Unless there's a "from x import *", but this is
precisely why that's frowned upon.) Is the convention different in
Tcl, or is gitk just laid out unhelpfully?

> You can't run Tk more than once, that applies to almost every toolkit I
> know. But you can pass a message to the main thread to do it for you. This
> is quite easy; it looks like
>
> thread::send -async $main [list doit $somedata]

Everything I ever did on OS/2 allowed GUI operations from multiple
threads. The C APIs, I think, were restricted to manipulating each
widget from the thread that created it (or at least, you could confuse
yourself thoroughly if you didn't; I always just stuck to "this
window, this thread"); VX-REXX allowed any thread to manipulate any
object belonging to that process. If you send a message to a widget,
its thread will handle it (and yours will block until you get a
response - or you can post a message, which doesn't block); this
functions the same whether it's a thread in your process or one in
another process.

> You pass an arbitrary Tcl command which executes in the main thread as soon
> as it is idle. In fact, because of the embedded event loop in Tcl (not bound
> to Tk), you rarely need threads at all. Asynchronous I/O is very easy in Tcl
> (fileevent command).

I learned to love async processing a couple of years ago with Pike.
You just return a negative number from main(), which normally has no
meaning, and it goes into a back-end event loop. (And there are other
ways to invoke the back-end.) That can then handle callbacks from
files/sockets, clock-based timeouts ("call this function in X
seconds"), GUI events, pretty much everything (except signals - they
interrupt everything else, as they should). It takes a bit of getting
your head around, if you're used to thread-based programming (as I had
been for a decade or so), but it's so convenient.

>> So there definitely are some advantages that Tcl has over Python. Put
>> against them is a superior object model, a large corpus of first-class
>> object types (dict, set, list, etc[1]), and a syntax that more clearly
>> differentiates names and strings without making variable references
>> look like a lot more than they are.

>> [1] What is an etc() in Python?
>
> Is this a quizzy question? I have no idea.

I mentioned four of Python's fundamental types: the dict, the set, the
list, and the etc. :)

> Lists and dicts exist in Tcl as first class objects. You just can't tell
> them apart from strings. Sets are in tcllib. Python is more strongly typed
> than Tcl in that respect, which can be an advantage. Specifically doing math
> is easier in an evaluation based syntax than in a command based syntax, this
> sometimes sucks in Tcl.

Having grown up with REXX, I completely understand the concept of
"everything is a string" (though REXX does have compound variables,
which aren't quite lists, aren't quite dicts, and aren't quite sets,
and definitely aren't quite multidimensional anything, but are their
own beast with unique semantics); and having since met Python and Pike
and other such languages, I prefer object semantics. The only
first-class type in REXX is the string; a compound variable is a
different sort of name, not a different sort of value, so you can't
actually pass an array as an argument. What you have to do is pass the
_name_ of the compound variable, so it's a lot fiddlier.

>> Huge room in the world for both languages to exist and thrive.
>
> Yes, you name it. I wish people who criticize Tcl would not use their
> knowledge from 15 years ago; that beast has evolved. I'm not complaining
> about Python 1.0 either. And I wish Tcl would be used more often for
> large-scale programs, such that the idioms really develop.

That's true of every language, but sometimes the community adopts
habits based on the early versions and those habits don't change.
Coding styles and best-practices are nearly as much a part of the
language ecosystem as semantics and standard library - a typical Ruby
application has piles and piles and PILES of dependencies (gems),
whereas a typical Python program will need maybe just a couple of
non-standard modules. Is that a fundamental difference between the
languages? Unless the Ruby standard library is positively minimalist,
I don't think it is. It's just the way the community works... which
changes very, very slowly. Maybe in 2015 there'll be a version of Ruby
with a hundred times as much in its stdlib as the current versions
have, but people will still use their favorite gems, because they're
used to them. Python programs will still tend to have shorter chains
of dots in their method calls than Java programs will have, even if
Python were to get compile-time lookups. C programs will still tend to
crash, even if C gets a refcounting garbage collector... hmm, that
one's already happened, and yep, still true. :)

ChrisA


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 00:37:07 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:37:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:01:53 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 14:53:45 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > On 2013-12-14, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >
> > You seem to be equating "was compiled from" with "includes an
> > implemenation of".  Do you say that CPython "ships with C"?
>
> Well, when you take my comments out of their context, that
> does seem to be a totally stupid thing to say. But in
> context, it's only *mostly* stupid, and mostly stupid
> means a little bit sensible *wink* The context was a
> complaint, or at least expression of surprise, that Python
> use Tcl for a GUI, this being contrasted with
> (paraphrasing the legions of people who have expressed
> surprise about this in the past) "some hypothetical GUI
> written in Python". But in practice, it won't be written
> in Python, it will be likely written in C or some other
> low-level language with some interface to Python. The main
> difference between this hypothetical "Python GUI" and Tcl
> is that Tcl is a Turing-complete interpreter which lives
> in it's own process.

And how many times would you take advantage of that "turning
complete" functionality in reality? My answer... ZERO! How
many Tcl calls have you, or anybody, made that did have
direct business with creating or managing a TK gui? HOW
MANY???

We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a
language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH
better. All we want is a damn GUI.

And trying to justify TCL as legit because "Tcl just calls C
routines" is ludicrous. If the intention is to extend C
routines, then by gawd EXTEND them. Don't go writing a whole
new turning complete monstrosity and forcing all calls to
travel through it's front door, sit in waiting room until
it's eyes bleed, before finally exiting out the back door on
it's way to "Cees-ville".

Why should i give a damn about Tcl? All it does is get in my
way. OTOH, if Tcl where more like a Vegas Casino for high
rollers, i might be inclined to overlook the "superfluous
pit-stop". A free luxury room , free all you can eat buffet,
free call girls, etc... but it has no endearing qualities.




From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 00:47:31 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:47:31 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmptYA+GpF5cDypeURqYjXKW3+oLJFN=dopz0vorUnPdig@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a
> language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH
> better. All we want is a damn GUI.
>
> And trying to justify TCL as legit because "Tcl just calls C
> routines" is ludicrous.

Python already ships with another language interpreter - actually,
several wrapped up into one. It's called the pickle module. There's
nothing fundamentally wrong with calling on another language; I was
just curious about it, is all.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 00:48:02 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:48:02 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ooh7$nur$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 05:37, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> We don't need that functionality, we ALREADY have a
> language... it's called Python and the syntax is MUCH
> better. All we want is a damn GUI.
>

Then write it, dear Rick, dear Rick, dear Rick, then write it, dear 
Rick, dear Rick, write it.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 02:58:15 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>

>From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
it has been decided to go unicode.

Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)

>>> len('??')
5

---

It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
wxPhoenix, unicode of course.

Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
deeper than in wx29 (unicode).

I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
that some improvement happened.

I attempted to explain unicode...

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 03:33:24 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:33:24 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8p279$oq0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>  From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
> interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
> it has been decided to go unicode.
>
> Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
> the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
>
>>>> len('??')
> 5
>
> ---
>
> It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
> wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
>
> Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
> supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
> deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
>
> I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
> is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
> a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
> that some improvement happened.
>
> I attempted to explain unicode...
>
> jmf
>

wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3. 
This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able 
to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String 
Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 04:18:10 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 01:18:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4269.1387269186.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4269.1387269186.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4230c98d-d16e-4357-bc34-6b4da9fcafb1@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 09:33:24 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a ?crit?:
> On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >  From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
> 
> > interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
> 
> > it has been decided to go unicode.
> 
> >
> 
> > Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
> 
> > the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
> 
> >
> 
> >>>> len('??')
> 
> > 5
> 
> >
> 
> > ---
> 
> >
> 
> > It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
> 
> > wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
> 
> >
> 
> > Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
> 
> > supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
> 
> > deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
> 
> >
> 
> > I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
> 
> > is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
> 
> > a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
> 
> > that some improvement happened.
> 
> >
> 
> > I attempted to explain unicode...
> 
> >
> 
> > jmf
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3. 
> 
> This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able 
> 
> to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String 
> 
> Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> 
> what you can do for our language.
> 
> 

I'm very happy for you.
You should at least serialized the tasks.

- wxPhoenix (wrapper of wxWidgets) is one thing
- wxPhoenix for Python3 / Python2 is something else
- Ditto for the FSR
- Ditto for "unicode"

For your information, that's at those times I decided
to have a look at the Qt derivatives, it was a very,
very good idea.

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 04:44:04 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:44:04 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <4230c98d-d16e-4357-bc34-6b4da9fcafb1@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4269.1387269186.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <4230c98d-d16e-4357-bc34-6b4da9fcafb1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8p6bq$765$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 09:18, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 09:33:24 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a ?crit :
>> On 17/12/2013 07:58, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>   From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most
>>
>>> interesting. I used all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then
>>
>>> it has been decided to go unicode.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only
>>
>>> the top of the iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>> len('??')
>>
>>> 5
>>
>>>
>>
>>> ---
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It has alos been decided to rework wxPython and create
>>
>>> wxPhoenix, unicode of course.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Impossible to put a Python string correctly in a widget
>>
>>> supposed to handle text. The design mistake is more
>>
>>> deeper than in wx29 (unicode).
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I do not know the present status, but as the mistake
>>
>>> is a consequence of a unicode non understanding (plus
>>
>>> a little bit Python, plus a little bit wxWidgets), I doubt
>>
>>> that some improvement happened.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I attempted to explain unicode...
>>
>>>
>>
>>> jmf
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> wxPython 3 (Phoenix) will be the first version that supports Python 3.
>>
>> This will obviously mean that for the first time, wxPython will be able
>>
>> to take full advantage of the superb PEP393 Flexible String
>>
>> Representation (FSR) which is available in Python 3.3+.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>>
>> what you can do for our language.
>>
>>
>
> I'm very happy for you.
> You should at least serialized the tasks.
>
> - wxPhoenix (wrapper of wxWidgets) is one thing
> - wxPhoenix for Python3 / Python2 is something else
> - Ditto for the FSR
> - Ditto for "unicode"
>
> For your information, that's at those times I decided
> to have a look at the Qt derivatives, it was a very,
> very good idea.
>
> jmf
>

I haven't the faintest idea what your words above are meant to mean. 
Your communication skills are clearly lacking, as you also still insist 
on sending us double spaced google crap.  Do you not understand the 
instructions here https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython ?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 04:29:28 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 09:29:28 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:

> From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most interesting. I used
> all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then it has been decided to go
> unicode.
> 
> Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only the top of the
> iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
> 
>>>> len('??')
> 5


What does that have to do with wxPython? It looks like you're just mis-
using Python 2.7.

In Python 2.7, '??' is not a Unicode string, it is a byte string. The 
exact bytes you get are not well-defined but on many systems you may get 
a UTF-8 encoded byte string:


py> sys.version
'2.7.4 (default, Apr 18 2013, 17:48:59) \n[GCC 4.4.5]'
py> for b in '??':
...     print hex(ord(b)), b
... 
0xe1 
0x88 ?
0xb4 ?
0xd0 
0x83 ?


If you use a Unicode string instead:

py> for c in u'??':
...     print hex(ord(c)), c
... 
0x1234 ?
0x403 ?

py> for b in u'??'.encode('utf-8'):
...     print hex(ord(b)), b
... 
0xe1 
0x88 ?
0xb4 ?
0xd0 
0x83 ?



Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't 
shown it here.



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 04:39:06 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8p62f$c2$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 09:29, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't
> shown it here.
>

Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the 
simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that 
Python 2 and unicode don't mix.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 06:13:16 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 11:13:16 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the
> simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that
> Python 2 and unicode don't mix.

I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as 
good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to 
remember to use the u prefix on your strings.

If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no 
evidence that this is correct -- then it is due to the underlying wx* 
library, not Python 2.


-- 
Steven


From robert.kern at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 08:03:03 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:03:03 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8pi1q$hac$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-17 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the
>> simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that
>> Python 2 and unicode don't mix.
>
> I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as
> good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to
> remember to use the u prefix on your strings.
>
> If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no
> evidence that this is correct --

It most certainly is not. wxPython has handled Unicode (via `unicode` strings) 
for many, many years now.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 08:47:02 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:47:02 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l8pkkd$jjm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the
>> simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that
>> Python 2 and unicode don't mix.
>
> I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as
> good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to
> remember to use the u prefix on your strings.
>
> If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no
> evidence that this is correct -- then it is due to the underlying wx*
> library, not Python 2.
>
>

Sorry folks, I'd been up all night and messed that up completely.  I 
meant to say "Personally I am convinced that *IF* wxPython can't handle 
unicode *IT WILL BE* for the simple reason that it doesn't yet support 
Python 3 and we all know that Python 2 and unicode don't mix".  It would 
have been better still if I'd added right at the end "particularly 
well", with this being the impression I get from the bug tracker, with 
far fewer bugs being raised against Python 3 unicode that I'm aware of 
rather than Python 2.  I'm now crossing my fingers and legs and hoping 
that my impression is correct.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 09:02:13 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 06:02:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4278.1387285401.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4278.1387285401.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d0d5929c-1985-4d98-a08d-8084daa51d22@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 14:03:03 UTC+1, Robert Kern a ?crit?:
> On 2013-12-17 11:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:39:06 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
> >
> 
> >> Personally I am convinced that wxPython can't handle unicode for the
> 
> >> simple reason that it doesn't yet support Python 3 and we all know that
> 
> >> Python 2 and unicode don't mix.
> 
> >
> 
> > I don't think this is right. The Unicode support in Python 2 isn't as
> 
> > good as in Python 3, but it is still pretty good. You just have to
> 
> > remember to use the u prefix on your strings.
> 
> >
> 
> > If it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode -- and I see no
> 
> > evidence that this is correct --
> 
> 
> 
> It most certainly is not. wxPython has handled Unicode (via `unicode` strings) 
> 
> for many, many years now.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Robert Kern
> 

---

Correct.

Output of my last interactive interpreter I wrote with
that toolkit.

Python 2.7.6 (default, Nov 10 2013, 19:24:18) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)] on win32
>>> 
psi runs psizero.py...
...psizero has been executed
>>> '?'
?
>>> print('?')
?
>>> u'?'
?
>>> print(u'?')
?
>>> u'\u20ac'
?
>>> print(u'\u20ac')
?
>>> 

And if I cut/copy/paste something like this:
'??'
into that interpreter, it behaves like this ('??'):

>>> u'asdf'
asdf
>>> '??'
??
>>> 999
999
>>> "?l?phant"
?l?phant
>>> '?l?phant'
?l?phant
>>> 


jmf


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 09:43:32 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 06:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <d0d5929c-1985-4d98-a08d-8084daa51d22@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4278.1387285401.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0d5929c-1985-4d98-a08d-8084daa51d22@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <d442a622-1226-4aed-ab50-6528cb877505@googlegroups.com>

Addendum.

I should say, I had also a lot of fun in writing my own
"styling engine".

Because when one has to deal with a language, which does
not recognize its own keywords...

>>> 1and 444
444
>>>

tokenize.py could have been a solution, but it's really
too slow.

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 09:52:12 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 14:52:12 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <d442a622-1226-4aed-ab50-6528cb877505@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4272.1387273126.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b031cc$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4278.1387285401.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <d0d5929c-1985-4d98-a08d-8084daa51d22@googlegroups.com>
 <d442a622-1226-4aed-ab50-6528cb877505@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8poej$4v4$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 14:43, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Addendum.
>
> I should say, I had also a lot of fun in writing my own
> "styling engine".
>
> Because when one has to deal with a language, which does
> not recognize its own keywords...
>
>>>> 1and 444
> 444
>>>>
>
> tokenize.py could have been a solution, but it's really
> too slow.
>
> jmf
>

To what, where is your context, my crystal ball is broken again?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 07:19:03 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:19:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <ef4ff5da-6743-4dea-b596-94084df7e25d@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 10:29:28 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a ?crit?:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most interesting. I used
> 
> > all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then it has been decided to go
> 
> > unicode.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only the top of the
> 
> > iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
> 
> > 
> 
> >>>> len('??')
> 
> > 5
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does that have to do with wxPython? It looks like you're just mis-
> 
> using Python 2.7.
> 
> 
> 
> In Python 2.7, '??' is not a Unicode string, it is a byte string. The 
> 
> exact bytes you get are not well-defined but on many systems you may get 
> 
> a UTF-8 encoded byte string:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> py> sys.version
> 
> '2.7.4 (default, Apr 18 2013, 17:48:59) \n[GCC 4.4.5]'
> 
> py> for b in '??':
> 
> ...     print hex(ord(b)), b
> 
> ... 
> 
> 0xe1 
> 
> 0x88 ?
> 
> 0xb4 ?
> 
> 0xd0 
> 
> 0x83 ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you use a Unicode string instead:
> 
> 
> 
> py> for c in u'??':
> 
> ...     print hex(ord(c)), c
> 
> ... 
> 
> 0x1234 ?
> 
> 0x403 ?
> 
> 
> 
> py> for b in u'??'.encode('utf-8'):
> 
> ...     print hex(ord(b)), b
> 
> ... 
> 
> 0xe1 
> 
> 0x88 ?
> 
> 0xb4 ?
> 
> 0xd0 
> 
> 0x83 ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't 
> 
> shown it here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
Quich answer.

That's PyShell, the wxPy interpreter.

You are right in pointing all this missmatch: byte string,
unicode, utf-8, mixing a "unicode" tool kit wiht a non
unicode native engine, plus plenty of related things, ...

You may be not aware. I contributed to wxPython from
practically 2.0, 2.1. 2.2 during 6, 7, 8 yeaurs, testing,
reporting about/with all versions, then I gave up.

---

Yout quote.
"Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text..."

It's a confusing vision and that's not correct. It's a little bit
more complicate than this.

jmf




From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 08:28:08 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:28:08 -0800
Subject: Fwd: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131217111353.GF29356@ando>
References: <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4264.1387259264.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cd4f8f05-a5bd-406a-b230-7595e112c7c8@googlegroups.com>
 <52b01978$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <CA+FnnTwjJT_xRDEhKOtsj3ScQ--cQy1-8Hyh7fk9uOYLMtE=BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131217111353.GF29356@ando>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTyJFXJbn9tPwhj+Cjnc6fmwE3fKaW=THVibziAKq3qxsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 01:36:43AM -0800, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, guys,
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:29 AM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:58:15 -0800, wxjmfauth wrote:
>
 I think you are doing exactly what Steven D'Aprano said:

 Please compare:

 "abc" vs 'abc'

 from wxPython point of view.
 Also remember that wxPython is a wrapper around C++ library where
 string are usually
 defined with double quotes.

 Thank you.

> >
> >> From all the toolkits, wxPython is probably the most interesting. I used
> >> all versions from 2.0 (?) up to 2.8. Then it has been decided to go
> >> unicode.
> >>
> >> Let see in the wx interactive intepreter, it is only the top of the
> >> iceberg. (Py27, wxPy294)
> >>
> >>>>> len('??')
> >> 5
> >
> >
> > What does that have to do with wxPython? It looks like you're just mis-
> > using Python 2.7.
> >
> > In Python 2.7, '??' is not a Unicode string, it is a byte string. The
> > exact bytes you get are not well-defined but on many systems you may get
> > a UTF-8 encoded byte string:
> >
> >
> > py> sys.version
> > '2.7.4 (default, Apr 18 2013, 17:48:59) \n[GCC 4.4.5]'
> > py> for b in '??':
> > ...     print hex(ord(b)), b
> > ...
> > 0xe1
> > 0x88 ?
> > 0xb4 ?
> > 0xd0
> > 0x83 ?
> >
> >
> > If you use a Unicode string instead:
> >
> > py> for c in u'??':
> > ...     print hex(ord(c)), c
> > ...
> > 0x1234 ?
> > 0x403 ?
> >
> > py> for b in u'??'.encode('utf-8'):
> > ...     print hex(ord(b)), b
> > ...
> > 0xe1
> > 0x88 ?
> > 0xb4 ?
> > 0xd0
> > 0x83 ?
> >
> >
> >
> > Even if it is true that wxPython cannot handle Unicode text, you haven't
> > shown it here.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steven
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From auriocus at gmx.de  Tue Dec 17 03:11:54 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:11:54 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4123.1387051351.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ace2c0$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <l8kfpp$4ai$1@reader1.panix.com>
 <52ade081$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <9846a594-e415-4ab8-8df7-67d10a081ffc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8p109$5go$1@dont-email.me>

Am 17.12.13 06:37, schrieb Rick Johnson:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:01:53 AM UTC-6, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> low-level language with some interface to Python. The main
>> difference between this hypothetical "Python GUI" and Tcl
>> is that Tcl is a Turing-complete interpreter which lives
>> in it's own process.
>
> And how many times would you take advantage of that "turning
> complete" functionality in reality? My answer... ZERO! How
> many Tcl calls have you, or anybody, made that did have
> direct business with creating or managing a TK gui? HOW
> MANY???

There are some useful extensions to Tk written in Tcl. For example, 
there is tablelist - a tree widget or multicolumn listbox in pure Tcl. 
By passing it to the Tcl interpreter, you can wrap it up for Python - 
that's what Kevin Walzer did at

http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/TableListWrapper

It would take many man-month to reproduce this thing in Python.


Another example is the file open dialog (import tkFileDialog). On 
Windows and OSX, it uses the native variants, but on X11 it uses a very 
outdated, ugly and hard to use thing bundled with Tk. With just a few 
lines executed by some Tk.eval('source myfixes.tcl'), I overwrite this 
dialog box with the one created by Schelte Bron:
http://wiki.tcl.tk/15897

For reference, here is myfixes.tcl:

lappend auto_path [file dirname [info script]]
if {[tk windowingsystem] == "x11" } {
	package require fsdialog
	interp alias {} tk_getOpenFile {} ttk::getOpenFile
	interp alias {} tk_getSaveFile {} ttk::getSaveFile
	interp alias {} tk_chooseDirectory {} ttk::chooseDirectory
}

Christian


From feliphil at gmx.net  Sun Dec 15 10:33:19 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:33:19 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4124.1387051479.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>

> I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is
> more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects.  I would
> recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project.

Except the issue that Pyside always seems to lag a bit behind Qt
releases, while PyQt usually supports more recent releases of Qt.

Besides that, according to what I've been reading on the PyQt mailing
list, support is impressive. The developer often fixes issues over
night, if there actually are any. And besides, again, a commercially
licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 12:19:38 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 10:19:38 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4124.1387051479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <52ADE4AA.1030106@gmail.com>

On 12/15/2013 08:33 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> I think PyQt is slowly being pushed aside in favor of PySide, which is
>> more license-friendly for use in closed or open projects.  I would
>> recommend using PySide unless PyQt is a requirement for your project.
> 
> Except the issue that Pyside always seems to lag a bit behind Qt
> releases, while PyQt usually supports more recent releases of Qt.

Which is a bit odd, seeing as Pyside is an official Qt project.  It was
started by Nokia when they owned Qt, and now is hosted at the official
Qt web site.

> Besides that, according to what I've been reading on the PyQt mailing
> list, support is impressive. The developer often fixes issues over
> night, if there actually are any. And besides, again, a commercially
> licensed PyQt itself isn't *that* expensive.

That's good to know.


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 12:52:35 2013
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Q2hyaXMg4oCcS3dwb2xza2HigJ0gV2Fycmljaw==?=)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:52:35 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4124.1387051479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7+9UoJXM5LtHp4AeQTDchUj2s5ghzW6df88jZAdTNjvSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
> And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that*
> expensive.

> The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is ?350
> (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP.

(?420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities)

> one [license] per developer

For some people, it might be a lot.  Why waste money on something,
that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is
easier to install, BTW)

> PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an
> appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from
> Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project).

So, you have four options:

a) use PySide and Qt at Project, pay $0 and be sane (albeit saner than
   person B);
b) use PyQt4 and Qt at Digia, pay ?350/?420 + ???? and be sane;
c) use PySide and Qt at Digia, pay ???? and look like a hypocrite (albeit
   less than person D);
d) use PyQt4 and Qt at Project, pay ?350/?420 and look like a hypocrite.

DISCLAIMER: Some things are based on assumptions, many of which may be
            incorrect.

PS. For those living in the past without proper Unicode support: ? = GBP.

-- 
Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 15 12:59:15 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 17:59:15 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAMw+j7+9UoJXM5LtHp4AeQTDchUj2s5ghzW6df88jZAdTNjvSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4124.1387051479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
 <CAMw+j7+9UoJXM5LtHp4AeQTDchUj2s5ghzW6df88jZAdTNjvSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8kql8$aqi$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 15/12/2013 17:52, Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
>> And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that*
>> expensive.
>
>> The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is ?350
>> (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP.
>
> (?420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities)

Four weeks income, no thanks :(

>
>> one [license] per developer
>
> For some people, it might be a lot.  Why waste money on something,
> that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is
> easier to install, BTW)
>
>> PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an
>> appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from
>> Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project).
>
> So, you have four options:
>
> a) use PySide and Qt at Project, pay $0 and be sane (albeit saner than
>     person B);
> b) use PyQt4 and Qt at Digia, pay ?350/?420 + ???? and be sane;
> c) use PySide and Qt at Digia, pay ???? and look like a hypocrite (albeit
>     less than person D);
> d) use PyQt4 and Qt at Project, pay ?350/?420 and look like a hypocrite.
>
> DISCLAIMER: Some things are based on assumptions, many of which may be
>              incorrect.
>
> PS. For those living in the past without proper Unicode support: ? = GBP.
>

Thanks for making my day, I've roared with laughter at the PS.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:26:09 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:26:09 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4148.1387129958.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <20131214180549.59e9831a6faf098b754ea00a@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4124.1387051479.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131215163319.08824581b639146aae04307d@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4148.1387129958.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217162609.c186c789cdbcec1408e054d3@gmx.net>

> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net>
> wrote:
> > And besides, again, a commercially licensed PyQt itself isn't *that*
> > expensive.
> 
> > The cost of a commercial PyQt license for a single developer is ?350
> > (GBP). You may pay in either US Dollars, Euros or GBP.

I didn't write the second paragraph. Please learn to quote, thanks.
 
> (?420 incl. VAT for UK and select EU entities)

For a commercial developer that doesn't appear much to me. I know Qt
applications that cost ~100.000 EUR per seat. Others are so valuable
that they simply aren't sold at all.

Wingware since recently uses PyQt and their prices don't seem to have
skyrocketed since the migration from PyGTK.

> > one [license] per developer
> 
> For some people, it might be a lot.  Why waste money on something,
> that has an almost-identical free-for-everyone version? (which also is
> easier to install, BTW)

Because PySide is *far* from identical.
 
> > PyQt does not include Qt itself. You must also obtain an
> > appropriately licensed copy (either the commercial version from
> > Digia or the LGPL version from the Qt Project).

Thanks again for learning to quote correctly. I did not write this
paragraph.
 
> So, you have four options:

If you need something that's actually supported, Pyside (currently)
doesn't look like a credible option to me.

And for "home users", education etc., the GPL version of PyQt seems
perfect to me.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From tameritoke2 at arcor.de  Sun Dec 15 19:34:14 2013
From: tameritoke2 at arcor.de (Tamer Higazi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:34:14 +0200
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>

For wxPython there is a good book.
You will feel convinient.


But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI 
development, but it's only an opinion.
Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets.


Tamer


On 14.12.2013 14:12, Jai wrote:
> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
>
> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 15 20:18:47 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 01:18:47 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 00:34, Tamer Higazi wrote:
>
> But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI
> development, but it's only an opinion.
> Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets.
>
> Tamer
>

Can you state why you prefer C++ and wxWidgets over Python and wxPython, 
which wraps wxWidgets?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tameritoke2 at arcor.de  Sun Dec 15 23:09:47 2013
From: tameritoke2 at arcor.de (Tamer Higazi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:09:47 +0200
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52AE7D0B.7070601@arcor.de>

Hi Mark!

It is an advise, in which language somebody wants to code is of course 
everybodys free choice.

However, I believe according wxWidgets it would be better coding in the 
native language the system had been developed.
The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I don't 
know how to pack the app written in python in an installer. Perhaps I am 
wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?!

I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be 
compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with 
it's native compiler.
How would it be with wxPython ?!


Thanks for your response



Tamer

On 16.12.2013 03:18, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 16/12/2013 00:34, Tamer Higazi wrote:
>>
>> But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI
>> development, but it's only an opinion.
>> Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets.
>>
>> Tamer
>>
>
> Can you state why you prefer C++ and wxWidgets over Python and 
> wxPython, which wraps wxWidgets?
>



From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:55:32 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:55:32 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE7D0B.7070601@arcor.de>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AE7D0B.7070601@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <52AE87C4.7080902@gmail.com>

On 12/15/2013 09:09 PM, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> However, I believe according wxWidgets it would be better coding in the 
> native language the system had been developed.
> The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I don't 
> know how to pack the app written in python in an installer. Perhaps I am 
> wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?!

Nonsense.  That's what an installer on windows is for, or what a package
on Linux is for.  There are also ways to bundle up everything you need
to run a Python app in a single exe file.

Ever take a look at the e-book manager, Calibre?  It's 90% Python.  You
can install it on Windows like any other app.  If you're curious as to
how they do things, you can always contact their developers.

> I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be 
> compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with 
> it's native compiler.
> How would it be with wxPython ?!

It would probably perform just fine.  Anything that can't get enough
speed to run in Python can easily be delegated to native libraries or
subroutines.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:57:58 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:57:58 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE7D0B.7070601@arcor.de>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <52AE7D0B.7070601@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrc9OMidJjrdqGdbu8j5-TVQOsKCZ4P0dRHcHC7Qr6Zkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Tamer Higazi <tameritoke2 at arcor.de> wrote:
> I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be
> compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with it's
> native compiler.
> How would it be with wxPython ?!

It's going to spend more than 99% of its time waiting for the user.
Most applications aren't performance-bound. Over the past few years, I
can think of *one* case when my GUI program was actually saturating a
CPU core and I had to dig into a performance fault; the simplistic
design had meant that it would iterate over an entire list of strings
to find which ones it needed to draw, and once that list got huge, the
redraw operation started taking time. But there was no visible problem
except when the app was redrawing itself many times a second in
response to user action AND the set of strings got, as I said, huge.
Every other part of that program, and all of every other GUI
interactive program I've written in recent years, has been coded for
simplicity and not for performance. (This particular example is
actually quite pertinent, as it's the "designated replacement" for a
very similar program written in C++. The C++ one has a tendency to
crash hard if user code does the wrong thing, as there is absolutely
no protection anywhere, while the new code will, at very worst, spew a
traceback and then go back to processing events.)

Of course, performance is a relative thing. If you're running on a PC,
there's no difference at all between taking 1ms and taking 2ms - no
human will notice. But if you're running on a server, that's the
difference between 1000tps and 500tps. And on a phone, that CPU usage
might have an impact on battery life, and running on a tiny PCB the
same coding difference might be the difference between 400ms and
800ms. But in the day-to-day realm of desktop apps, maintainable code
will always be better than marginally faster code.

ChrisA


From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:07:51 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:07:51 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>

> The other thing, specially if you would make a customer project, I
> don't know how to pack the app written in python in an installer.

If you want your application to be actually user-friendly, you make it
available as an installer-less zip archive. It works with Python
applications, no matter whether they use PyGTK, wxPython or PyQt.

> Perhaps I am wrong, and you could give me in exchange an advise ?!

Python is probably the "best" language for application implementation in
general. Anything that would really need to be faster than python
itself allows can easily be implemented in "compiled" Python ? la Pyrex
et al.

> I also believe in performance. An application written in C++, can be 
> compiled easily on the target platform (like on windows systems) with 
> it's native compiler.
> How would it be with wxPython ?!

It isn't an issue.

With that pathological non-operating system Microsoft (Not Responding),
as soon as your application has to do any I/O, or if there's any other
process (virus scanner, file system indexer) running that does I/O,
any computer will be unusable for productive work anyway.

On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do they
actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical issue for
end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement such as
of "just get a faster computer" or "just get more RAM", then (s)he
probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like Java
applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these days, just
because the vendors/developers don't care.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Dec 17 13:11:58 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:11:58 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <l8q454$pvf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/17/2013 10:07 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:

> On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do they
> actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical issue for
> end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement such as
> of "just get a faster computer" or "just get more RAM", then (s)he
> probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like Java
> applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these days, just
> because the vendors/developers don't care.

I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks. At 
least one module is tested for memory leaks in a nightly task. When 
found, leaks are patched.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From feliphil at gmx.net  Mon Dec 23 12:59:41 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 18:59:41 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>

> > On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do
> > they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical
> > issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement
> > such as of "just get a faster computer" or "just get more RAM",
> > then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like
> > Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these
> > days, just because the vendors/developers don't care.
> 
> I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.

And that's a really good thing.

But unfortunately, these days, it's rather the exception.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 14:05:07 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:05:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>

Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a ?crit?:
> > > On an actual operating system, the attitude of the developers (do
> 
> > > they actually care or just don't give a darn) is *the* critical
> 
> > > issue for end-user productivity. If a developer makes a statement
> 
> > > such as of "just get a faster computer" or "just get more RAM",
> 
> > > then (s)he probably doesn't give darn. C++ applications, just like
> 
> > > Java applications, tend to leak horrible amounts of memory these
> 
> > > days, just because the vendors/developers don't care.
> 
> > 
> 
> > I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's a really good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> But unfortunately, these days, it's rather the exception.
> 
> 

Memory? Let me laugh!

>>> sys.getsizeof('a')
26
>>> sys.getsizeof('?')
40
>>> 40 - 26
14
>>> sys.getsizeof('\U00010000')
44
>>> 44 - 26
18


I'm deeply convinced, one will soon see that
technology in CID font.

jmf


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 14:14:18 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 06:14:18 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpGggpG9cns+PpC9N8T=eMVDP-Wif6_dwyCL9x84gPayw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 6:05 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
> Memory? Let me laugh!
>

Is it a crime to hijack an already-hijacked thread?

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 14:22:52 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:22:52 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpGggpG9cns+PpC9N8T=eMVDP-Wif6_dwyCL9x84gPayw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmpGggpG9cns+PpC9N8T=eMVDP-Wif6_dwyCL9x84gPayw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9a2i2$am3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 19:14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 6:05 AM,  <wxjmfauth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Memory? Let me laugh!
>>
>
> Is it a crime to hijack an already-hijacked thread?
>
> ChrisA
>

Yes, especially when written with our favourite bug ridden pile of garbage.

Perhaps we should write up something for the Python wiki so that 
everyone can send double line feeds from any technology, that way 
everybody would feel at home as we'd all be in the same boat.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 23 15:53:13 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:53:13 -0500
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9a7rk$786$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/23/2013 2:05 PM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

> Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a ?crit :
>> [me]
>>> I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
>> And that's a really good thing.

> Memory? Let me laugh!
[snip repeated (for about the 5th time) posting of single character 
memory sizes]

Jim, since I know you are smart enough to know the different between a 
small fixed size and a continuous leak, I can only think that the 
purpose of your repeated post was to get similarly a inane response from 
a couple of other people. That is the definition of trolling. It is 
disrespectful of others and in my opinion is a violation of the Python 
Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to python-list. Please desist.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 18:52:59 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 23:52:59 +0000
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <l9a7rk$786$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <l9a7rk$786$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9aich$lf5$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 20:53, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 2:05 PM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a ?crit :
>>> [me]
>>>> I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
>>> And that's a really good thing.
>
>> Memory? Let me laugh!
> [snip repeated (for about the 5th time) posting of single character
> memory sizes]
>
> Jim, since I know you are smart enough to know the different between a
> small fixed size and a continuous leak, I can only think that the
> purpose of your repeated post was to get similarly a inane response from
> a couple of other people. That is the definition of trolling. It is
> disrespectful of others and in my opinion is a violation of the Python
> Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to python-list. Please desist.
>

Thanks for this Terry.  I was sorely tempted earlier to say something 
but managed to keep control of myself.  Now I'll be keeping quiet and 
let Jim speak for himself.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From joshua at landau.ws  Thu Dec 26 02:58:09 2013
From: joshua at landau.ws (Joshua Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 07:58:09 +0000
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <l9a7rk$786$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <l9a7rk$786$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAN1F8qUNxsFKPpVUFZVBp5B8PoQYQM3G0T+L6MQ0L6FAeKr5LA@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 December 2013 20:53, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 2:05 PM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a ?crit :
>>>
>>> [me]
>>>>
>>>> I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
>>>
>>> And that's a really good thing.
>
>> Memory? Let me laugh!
>
> [snip repeated (for about the 5th time) posting of single character memory
> sizes]
>
> Jim, since I know you are smart enough to know the different between a small
> fixed size and a continuous leak, I can only think that the purpose of your
> repeated post was to get similarly a inane response from a couple of other
> people. That is the definition of trolling. It is disrespectful of others
> and in my opinion is a violation of the Python Code of Conduct, which *does*
> apply to python-list. Please desist.

Agreed;
It's also a shame that it's so easy for such diversions to snowball so
often, and thus derail so many threads. Sometimes I feel that we have
so much trolling on this list because we're easy targets.

Nonetheless, I join in to ask jmf to stop posting these threads as
they do cause harm to the community. If you do not, I would rather
some form of moderating be applied.

A thanks to everyone who hasn't been so easily caught up in this malarky.


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 05:22:23 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 02:22:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>

Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 21:53:13 UTC+1, Terry Reedy a ?crit?:
> On 12/23/2013 2:05 PM, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Le lundi 23 d?cembre 2013 18:59:41 UTC+1, Wolfgang Keller a ?crit :
> 
> >> [me]
> 
> >>> I'll note that Python core developers do care about memory leaks.
> 
> >> And that's a really good thing.
> 
> 
> 
> > Memory? Let me laugh!
> 
> [snip repeated (for about the 5th time) posting of single character 
> 
> memory sizes]
> 
> 
> 
> Jim, since I know you are smart enough to know the different between a 
> 
> small fixed size and a continuous leak, I can only think that the 
> 
> purpose of your repeated post was to get similarly a inane response from 
> 
> a couple of other people. That is the definition of trolling. It is 
> 
> disrespectful of others and in my opinion is a violation of the Python 
> 
> Code of Conduct, which *does* apply to python-list. Please desist.
> 
> 


This is gui related.

This code point could have been a grapheme of
a korean glyph (Hangul script) used to to
populate a text widget of a gui toolkit.

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 24 09:58:31 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:58:31 +0000
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9c7ee$p3j$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 24/12/2013 10:22, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

<sorry folks>

[once again snip double spaced google crap]

>
> This is gui related.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_the_other_one,_it%27s_got_bells_on

>
> This code point could have been a grapheme of
> a korean glyph (Hangul script) used to to
> populate a text widget of a gui toolkit.
>
> jmf
>

</sorry folks>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec 24 10:28:30 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:28:30 -0500
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <l9c7ee$p3j$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>
 <l9c7ee$p3j$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9c96j$c9e$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/24/13 9:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 24/12/2013 10:22, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>
> <sorry folks>
>
> [once again snip double spaced google crap]
>
>>
>> This is gui related.
>
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_the_other_one,_it%27s_got_bells_on
>

This isn't adding anything.  It might even be trolling.

>>
>> This code point could have been a grapheme of
>> a korean glyph (Hangul script) used to to
>> populate a text widget of a gui toolkit.
>>
>> jmf
>>
>
> </sorry folks>
>

No need to apologize, just don't taunt people for amusement.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 24 10:55:09 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:55:09 +0000
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <l9c96j$c9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>
 <l9c7ee$p3j$1@ger.gmane.org> <l9c96j$c9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9canp$sjo$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 24/12/2013 15:28, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/24/13 9:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 24/12/2013 10:22, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> <sorry folks>
>>
>> [once again snip double spaced google crap]
>>
>>>
>>> This is gui related.
>>
>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_the_other_one,_it%27s_got_bells_on
>>
>
> This isn't adding anything.  It might even be trolling.
>

There is nothing trolling about it.  How "Joseph McCarthy" can expect us 
to believe that he's talking about Guis when Terry has snipped this

 >>> sys.getsizeof('a')
26
 >>> sys.getsizeof('?')
40
 >>> 40 - 26
14
 >>> sys.getsizeof('\U00010000')
44
 >>> 44 - 26
18

leaving only this

Memory? Let me laugh!

is anybody's guess hence my link.

I will repeat, for perhaps the fourth time, that while JM continues his 
malicious attacks on the Python core developers via the nonsense that he 
writes about PEP 393 and the FSR, I will continue to attack him until he 
either shuts up or is shut up, or provides the evidence to support his 
claims.  As the latter can never happen (he's had ample opportunity to 
do so, but strangely never replies to any requests to do just that), it 
will have to be the former by definition.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec 24 11:04:59 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:04:59 -0500
Subject: Please stop the trolling
In-Reply-To: <l9canp$sjo$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <l8lkdd$57o$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4172.1387168848.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160751.0a902cd1ac2deb96247ebfc6@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4302.1387303934.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131223185941.5712de41de7ac0c101f3eceb@gmx.net>
 <4763b6c4-b350-4aad-9f71-8f15490fc762@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4575.1387832011.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <43061a46-09f0-41d0-96f8-6a68fc11fca2@googlegroups.com>
 <l9c7ee$p3j$1@ger.gmane.org> <l9c96j$c9e$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l9canp$sjo$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9cbb0$2f2$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/24/13 10:55 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 24/12/2013 15:28, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/24/13 9:58 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 24/12/2013 10:22, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> <sorry folks>
>>>
>>> [once again snip double spaced google crap]
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is gui related.
>>>
>>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pull_the_other_one,_it%27s_got_bells_on
>>>
>>
>> This isn't adding anything.  It might even be trolling.
>>
>
> There is nothing trolling about it.  How "Joseph McCarthy" can expect us
> to believe that he's talking about Guis when Terry has snipped this
>
>  >>> sys.getsizeof('a')
> 26
>  >>> sys.getsizeof('?')
> 40
>  >>> 40 - 26
> 14
>  >>> sys.getsizeof('\U00010000')
> 44
>  >>> 44 - 26
> 18
>
> leaving only this
>
> Memory? Let me laugh!
>
> is anybody's guess hence my link.
>
> I will repeat, for perhaps the fourth time, that while JM continues his
> malicious attacks on the Python core developers via the nonsense that he
> writes about PEP 393 and the FSR, I will continue to attack him until he
> either shuts up or is shut up, or provides the evidence to support his
> claims.  As the latter can never happen (he's had ample opportunity to
> do so, but strangely never replies to any requests to do just that), it
> will have to be the former by definition.
>

I agree that JM's complaints are baseless and silly.  But they are not 
attacks on people.  Criticizing the product is not criticizing the authors.

You should stop attacking him.  The best way to reduce the noise from JM 
is to ignore him.  Your "defense" of the core developers is at least as 
distracting and detracting from this list's purpose as JM's baseless 
criticisms.

The first step with a troll is to ignore them.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:51:49 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:51:49 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>

On 12/15/2013 05:34 PM, Tamer Higazi wrote:
> For wxPython there is a good book.
> You will feel convinient.
> 
> 
> But to be honest, I don't believe that Python is the best choice for GUI 
> development, but it's only an opinion.
> Otherwise I would advise you going into C++ and code with wxWidgets.

Perhaps this is because the wx binding in Python is too C++-like and
lacks python concepts and idioms?  Or are you saying Python in general
is not a good language for GUI development?

GUI design is moving firmly into the realm of interpreted or
non-compiled languages, with compiled languages often doing the real
back end work.  For example Firefox implements its entire GUI in
Javascript using XML GUI definitions.  This all drives a C-based
rendering engine.  Also Qt 5 emphasizes developing GUIs using QtQuick,
which is also Javascript-based with XML and CSS for styling.  And all
modern web apps are a combination of many languages and domains, most of
which are "compiled" in the traditional sense.

I think Python is a great overall application development language,
especially for the GUI.  First-class functions for callbacks make it
very nice compared to other languages.  Python  is fast enough for
full-blown apps too.  Slow parts can be factored out to other languages.


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:56:49 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:56:49 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52AE8811.1090808@gmail.com>

On 12/15/2013 09:51 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> And all modern web apps are a combination of many languages and
> domains, most of which are "compiled" in the traditional sense.
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Meant to say, *not* compiled.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 00:08:06 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:08:06 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpat58b7xEPqz3RO=xi0Y610KAxkrRPbM5QQZ1ri93tqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think Python is a great overall application development language,
> especially for the GUI.  First-class functions for callbacks make it
> very nice compared to other languages.  Python  is fast enough for
> full-blown apps too.  Slow parts can be factored out to other languages.

Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human. That pesky
input() function can take *minutes* to return. It's terrible! Factor
that out and your job's done.

And yeah. First-class functions *rock*. ECMAScript is almost there -
not supremely, perhaps, but oh so "all-but"! [1] A function can retain
all sorts of state by being a closure, and yet somehow it doesn't
retain the state of which 'this' (in Python terms, 'self') it should
reference. Why? I don't know. But it's part of the spec now, so
callbacks have to take a function and a context.

var func=document.getElementById;
var foo=func("foo"); /* Won't work */

function funcgen(obj)
{
    return function(desc) {return obj.getElementById(desc);}
}
var func=funcgen(document);
var foo=func("foo"); /* Will work! */

In Python, the simple and obvious thing works, because there's less
magic. The incantation "obj.member" followed by the incantation
"callable(args)" has exactly the same meaning as "obj.method(args)".

ChrisA

[1] http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/patience/webop/pat16d.html


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 04:42:58 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:42:58 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpat58b7xEPqz3RO=xi0Y610KAxkrRPbM5QQZ1ri93tqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpat58b7xEPqz3RO=xi0Y610KAxkrRPbM5QQZ1ri93tqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8mhuo$ulq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 05:08, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think Python is a great overall application development language,
>> especially for the GUI.  First-class functions for callbacks make it
>> very nice compared to other languages.  Python  is fast enough for
>> full-blown apps too.  Slow parts can be factored out to other languages.
>
> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human. That pesky
> input() function can take *minutes* to return. It's terrible! Factor
> that out and your job's done.
>

I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ 
screens into a one liner, help please :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:58:42 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:58:42 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <l8mhuo$ulq$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpat58b7xEPqz3RO=xi0Y610KAxkrRPbM5QQZ1ri93tqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8mhuo$ulq$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrLRitFMZpFjHyegPxxnvxHHU77ubo4d3f0WHkMN+ykaA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ screens
> into a one liner, help please :)

With 100 screens, you should be able to use lines of text up to 8000
characters long - just make sure your screens are organized
horizontally. Shorten all variable names to a single letter, omit all
unnecessary spaces, and you should be able to fit the code within that
space.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 08:58:25 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:58:25 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrLRitFMZpFjHyegPxxnvxHHU77ubo4d3f0WHkMN+ykaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmpat58b7xEPqz3RO=xi0Y610KAxkrRPbM5QQZ1ri93tqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8mhuo$ulq$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmrLRitFMZpFjHyegPxxnvxHHU77ubo4d3f0WHkMN+ykaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8n0tm$31u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 11:58, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> I've done the latter, but still can't fit all the data for my 100+ screens
>> into a one liner, help please :)
>
> With 100 screens, you should be able to use lines of text up to 8000
> characters long - just make sure your screens are organized
> horizontally. Shorten all variable names to a single letter, omit all
> unnecessary spaces, and you should be able to fit the code within that
> space.
>
> ChrisA
>

Thanks for this extremely useful advice, it's much appreciated :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:00:39 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:00:39 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>

> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.

With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
for that system to stop "Not Responding".

And no, it's not a matter of hardware.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:06:35 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:06:35 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <52B092AB.1050706@gmail.com>

On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.
> 
> With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
> for that system to stop "Not Responding".
> 
> And no, it's not a matter of hardware.

Something is wrong then.  Windows has its issues, and it does slow down
over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting
slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in
general, but your experience with Windows is not normal.  I managed
hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see
this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup.
Maybe its time for a re-install?  Virus or malware?  Or maybe you need
to upgrade to Windows 7?


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 14:00:14 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:00:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a ?crit?:
> On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> 
> >> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.
> 
> > 
> 
> > With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
> 
> > for that system to stop "Not Responding".
> 
> > 
> 
> > And no, it's not a matter of hardware.
> 
> 
> 
> Something is wrong then.  Windows has its issues, and it does slow down
> 
> over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting
> 
> slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in
> 
> general, but your experience with Windows is not normal.  I managed
> 
> hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see
> 
> this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup.
> 
> Maybe its time for a re-install?  Virus or malware?  Or maybe you need
> 
> to upgrade to Windows 7?



I tend to agree with you. However, I should say
I'm observing a strange phenomenon.

Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters
with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2.

If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute)

>>> timeit.timeit("a = '\u2345'*100000; 'x' in a")

it runs smoothly.

but if I run the same task with Py3.3

my window seems to be idled, and a message like,
Ne r?pond pas (something like "Do no respond")
appeares in the title bar of the window (my application
title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the
win7 "waiting cursor".

The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and
the resulting values are correct.

How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting
values are in exact concordance with the values
I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but
built with tkinter!

jmf



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 14:33:48 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:33:48 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8q8uj$kpb$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 19:00, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a ?crit :
>> On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>
>>>> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
>>
>>> for that system to stop "Not Responding".
>>
>>>
>>
>>> And no, it's not a matter of hardware.
>>
>>
>>
>> Something is wrong then.  Windows has its issues, and it does slow down
>>
>> over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting
>>
>> slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in
>>
>> general, but your experience with Windows is not normal.  I managed
>>
>> hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see
>>
>> this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup.
>>
>> Maybe its time for a re-install?  Virus or malware?  Or maybe you need
>>
>> to upgrade to Windows 7?
>
>
>
> I tend to agree with you. However, I should say
> I'm observing a strange phenomenon.
>
> Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters
> with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2.
>
> If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute)
>
>>>> timeit.timeit("a = '\u2345'*100000; 'x' in a")
>
> it runs smoothly.
>
> but if I run the same task with Py3.3
>
> my window seems to be idled, and a message like,
> Ne r?pond pas (something like "Do no respond")
> appeares in the title bar of the window (my application
> title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the
> win7 "waiting cursor".
>
> The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and
> the resulting values are correct.
>
> How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting
> values are in exact concordance with the values
> I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but
> built with tkinter!
>
> jmf
>

Have I understood this correctly?  Your users are using a GUI that 
you've designed and implemented, they type in 100000 identical 
characters and then search linearly for a single character that they 
know can't possibly be found, and then they are complaining that their 
systems are too slow, yes?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 04:24:56 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:24:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <41ce5436-a3d2-46a4-ae39-4265c8b782ce@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 20:00:14 UTC+1, wxjm... at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a ?crit?:
> 
> > On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
> 
> > 
> 
> > > for that system to stop "Not Responding".
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > And no, it's not a matter of hardware.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Something is wrong then.  Windows has its issues, and it does slow down
> 
> > 
> 
> > over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting
> 
> > 
> 
> > slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in
> 
> > 
> 
> > general, but your experience with Windows is not normal.  I managed
> 
> > 
> 
> > hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see
> 
> > 
> 
> > this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Maybe its time for a re-install?  Virus or malware?  Or maybe you need
> 
> > 
> 
> > to upgrade to Windows 7?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tend to agree with you. However, I should say
> 
> I'm observing a strange phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters
> 
> with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2.
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute)
> 
> 
> 
> >>> timeit.timeit("a = '\u2345'*100000; 'x' in a")
> 
> 
> 
> it runs smoothly.
> 
> 
> 
> but if I run the same task with Py3.3
> 
> 
> 
> my window seems to be idled, and a message like,
> 
> Ne r?pond pas (something like "Do no respond")
> 
> appeares in the title bar of the window (my application
> 
> title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the
> 
> win7 "waiting cursor".
> 
> 
> 
> The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and
> 
> the resulting values are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting
> 
> values are in exact concordance with the values
> 
> I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but
> 
> built with tkinter!
> 
> 


Installation of PySide 1.2.1 for Py32, Py33
-> same effect.

win32, shiboken, Visual Studio, Qt: ???

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 11:45:52 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:45:52 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <41ce5436-a3d2-46a4-ae39-4265c8b782ce@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
 <41ce5436-a3d2-46a4-ae39-4265c8b782ce@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8sjfo$boe$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 09:24, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

[once again snip all the double spaced crap from google groups]

>
> Installation of PySide 1.2.1 for Py32, Py33
> -> same effect.
>
> win32, shiboken, Visual Studio, Qt: ???
>
> jmf
>

The point of this is?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 03:10:56 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <709c51e2-d3e5-4282-a3cb-ece846d9fb8e@googlegroups.com>

Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 20:00:14 UTC+1, wxjm... at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> Le mardi 17 d?cembre 2013 19:06:35 UTC+1, Michael Torrie a ?crit?:
> 
> > On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> Python is sooooooo slow when it waits for the human.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time waiting
> 
> > 
> 
> > > for that system to stop "Not Responding".
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > And no, it's not a matter of hardware.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Something is wrong then.  Windows has its issues, and it does slow down
> 
> > 
> 
> > over time as cruft in the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting
> 
> > 
> 
> > slower and slower due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in
> 
> > 
> 
> > general, but your experience with Windows is not normal.  I managed
> 
> > 
> 
> > hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous life and I did not see
> 
> > 
> 
> > this occur with any regularity. So something is wrong with your setup.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Maybe its time for a re-install?  Virus or malware?  Or maybe you need
> 
> > 
> 
> > to upgrade to Windows 7?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I tend to agree with you. However, I should say
> 
> I'm observing a strange phenomenon.
> 
> 
> 
> Among others, I wrote two interactive interpreters
> 
> with PySide 1.1.2 for Python 3.3 and Python 3.2.
> 
> 
> 
> If I'm runing such a task with Py3.2 (more than a minute)
> 
> 
> 
> >>> timeit.timeit("a = '\u2345'*100000; 'x' in a")
> 
> 
> 
> it runs smoothly.
> 
> 
> 
> but if I run the same task with Py3.3
> 
> 
> 
> my window seems to be idled, and a message like,
> 
> Ne r?pond pas (something like "Do no respond")
> 
> appeares in the title bar of the window (my application
> 
> title + that msg). The cursor get transformed into the
> 
> win7 "waiting cursor".
> 
> 
> 
> The app seems to freeze, but in fact, it is not and
> 
> the resulting values are correct.
> 
> 
> 
> How do I know this? Very simple, the resulting
> 
> values are in exact concordance with the values
> 
> I obtain with my interactive intepreters, but
> 
> built with tkinter!
> 
> 


Same experience with PyQt4.

Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.8.6
Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.10

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 03:25:14 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:25:14 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <709c51e2-d3e5-4282-a3cb-ece846d9fb8e@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
 <709c51e2-d3e5-4282-a3cb-ece846d9fb8e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8uah2$vuf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:

>
> Same experience with PyQt4.
>
> Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.8.6
> Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.10
>
> jmf
>

Your point being?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 04:10:50 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 01:10:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4406.1387441533.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
 <709c51e2-d3e5-4282-a3cb-ece846d9fb8e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4406.1387441533.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <88c99955-31fc-418f-ba3b-842864863bf8@googlegroups.com>

Le jeudi 19 d?cembre 2013 09:25:14 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a ?crit?:
> On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> >
> 
> > Same experience with PyQt4.
> 
> >
> 
> > Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.8.6
> 
> > Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.10
> 
> >
> 
> > jmf
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Your point being?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> 
> what you can do for our language.
> 
> 

The point is:
Py3.3 and "Qt" on Windows 7 pro does not work.

jmf


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 04:23:33 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:23:33 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <88c99955-31fc-418f-ba3b-842864863bf8@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a989412e-0b06-4cbe-af02-7cc9b71aba59@googlegroups.com>
 <709c51e2-d3e5-4282-a3cb-ece846d9fb8e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4406.1387441533.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <88c99955-31fc-418f-ba3b-842864863bf8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8udud$9oq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 09:10, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
> Le jeudi 19 d?cembre 2013 09:25:14 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence a ?crit :
>> On 19/12/2013 08:10, wxjmfauth at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Same experience with PyQt4.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Py 3.2 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.8.6
>>
>>> Py 3.3 : PyQt4.QtCore.PYQT_VERSION_STR -> 4.10
>>
>>>
>>
>>> jmf
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your point being?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>>
>> what you can do for our language.
>>
>>
>
> The point is:
> Py3.3 and "Qt" on Windows 7 pro does not work.
>
> jmf
>

Well that's rather sad, but did you have to send all the blank space 
above just to say that?  With whom have you raised bug reports?  What 
has their response(s) been?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 19 10:32:37 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:32:37 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>

> > With Windows systems, I waste something like 90% of my work time
> > waiting for that system to stop "Not Responding".
> > 
> > And no, it's not a matter of hardware.
> 
> Something is wrong then.

You bet.

> Windows has its issues, and it does slow down over time as cruft in
> the system accumulates. And Windows XP is getting slower and slower
> due to a bug in the automatic updates service, but in general, but
> your experience with Windows is not normal.

With Windows it *is* "normal". An experienced software developer
once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows
does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to "single tasking".
Or (non-)"cooperative multitasking" at best, depending on how
dissocial the developer of that process is.

>  I managed hundreds of Windows workstations in my previous
> life and I did not see this occur with any regularity.

Well, because you only "managed" those computers, you never tried to
accomplish actual *work* with them.

> So something is wrong with your setup. Maybe its time for a
> re-install?  Virus or malware? 

Windows itself is the problem.

> Or maybe you need to upgrade to Windows 7?

Won't change anything.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 11:20:38 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 03:20:38 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp_tJz-Zcq=gFoCQb_YGBO6S4wpDWzhDgVd92hREPrPhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
> With Windows it *is* "normal". An experienced software developer
> once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on Windows
> does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to "single tasking".
> Or (non-)"cooperative multitasking" at best, depending on how
> dissocial the developer of that process is.

What?!

I've supported Windows for quite a few years now (ever since I stopped
being OS/2-exclusive (and will do until I can be Linux-exclusive...
too many people use it for me to drop it). There is nothing
cooperative or single-threaded about Windows multitasking around I/O.

I don't disagree that it absolutely sucks compared to Linux (even OS/2
from the 1990s beats today's Windows in a few areas), but not that
one.

ChrisA


From davea at davea.name  Fri Dec 20 01:30:27 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 01:30:27 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_GUI:-please_answer_want_to_learn_GUI_pr?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ogramming_in_python_, =0A_how_should_i_proceed.?=
In-Reply-To: <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:32:37 +0100, Wolfgang Keller 
<feliphil at gmx.net> wrote:
> With Windows it *is* "normal". An experienced software developer
> once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on 
Windows
> does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to "single 
tasking".
> Or (non-)"cooperative multitasking" at best, depending on how
> dissocial the developer of that process is.

If you were told this 20 years ago, perhaps.  But Windows hasn't been 
running on DOS for a long time. Starting with NT 3.1, that's 
nonsense.

-- 
DaveA



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 01:57:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 17:57:41 +1100
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , 
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
 <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqLObANRCbbmrzBWPuTbycKWxrF_FzJRMn8A1ir8W=omw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Dave Angel <davea at davea.name> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:32:37 +0100, Wolfgang Keller <feliphil at gmx.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> With Windows it *is* "normal". An experienced software developer
>> once even explained the reason to me. When a single process on
>
> Windows
>>
>> does I/O, then the system essentially falls back to "single
>
> tasking".
>>
>> Or (non-)"cooperative multitasking" at best, depending on how
>> dissocial the developer of that process is.
>
>
> If you were told this 20 years ago, perhaps.  But Windows hasn't been
> running on DOS for a long time. Starting with NT 3.1, that's nonsense.

Actually, one thing I might believe is that when one process trips a
page fault and has to be swapped back in, all other processes freeze,
waiting on the memory manager. But I'd want to see some evidence that
that's the case. It's plausible (based on some of the problems I've
seen) but by no means necessarily true.

ChrisA


From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:52:44 2013
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 20 Dec 2013 17:52:44 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
 <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4427.1387522665.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>

This thread hasn't been close to Python for while now and should
be shut down. But, it is actually kind of interesting since you 
debate possible mechanisms behind the behaviour of my Windows box 
at work: "Not responding" is happening to me daily for any
application including Microsoft's own Office Suite. I hoped it
would go away when we moved from Vista to W7 but it didn't.

In all fairness, our computers have both corporate and HP crapware
installed so Microsoft may be innocent.

Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit
spoiled when it comes to robustness :-)

Now, let's leave this behind and spend time on Python -- something I
with a formal programming education dating back to 1980 and F77 find
fascinating.

/Martin


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 13:00:44 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 18:00:44 +0000
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
 <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4427.1387522665.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <l920k6$k06$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 20/12/2013 17:52, Martin Sch??n wrote:
>
> Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit
> spoiled when it comes to robustness :-)
>

You never had the pleasure of working on VMS then? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 13:34:58 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:34:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python , how
 should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
 <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4427.1387522665.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <653d21a4-ff19-41d1-a26e-c3755a83f7bc@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 20 d?cembre 2013 18:52:44 UTC+1, Martin Sch??n a ?crit?:
> This thread hasn't been close to Python for while now and should
> 
> be shut down. But, it is actually kind of interesting since you 
> 
> debate possible mechanisms behind the behaviour of my Windows box 
> 
> at work: "Not responding" is happening to me daily for any
> 
> application including Microsoft's own Office Suite. I hoped it
> 
> would go away when we moved from Vista to W7 but it didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> In all fairness, our computers have both corporate and HP crapware
> 
> installed so Microsoft may be innocent.
> 
> 
> 
> Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit
> 
> spoiled when it comes to robustness :-)
> 
> 
> 
> Now, let's leave this behind and spend time on Python -- something I
> 
> with a formal programming education dating back to 1980 and F77 find
> 
> fascinating.
> 

The fact, that a main app window [%] falls in a "Ne r?pond pas",
("Not responding") state [*] with a mouse pointer becoming a
"waiting pointer" is not so dramatic. As I pointed, despite
this message in the title bar, the app works properly(?).

The fact, that system becomes "unstable" is more critical.
While being in that [*]-state, any attempt to work with
the mouse, eg clicking on an another app window, leads
to a [%] kill and to a msg box "Python has stopped working...".

The Python process can be killed, it does not hurt the system.

I'm observing this with the Qt-derivatives, PySide and PyQt4,
and Python 3.3. Not with Python 3.2.
>From where does it come from? No idea. I'm inclined to
think, it's on the Qt side.

Windows 7 pro

jmf




From martin.schoon at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 08:25:13 2013
From: martin.schoon at gmail.com (Martin =?UTF-8?Q?Sch=C3=B6=C3=B6n?=)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 13:25:13 GMT
Subject: GUI:-please answer want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de> <52AE86E5.70409@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4179.1387170489.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131217160039.eba12a87ca9cd0a8fbd4fb14@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4301.1387303634.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219163237.7e855831680a4e5cba2cea94@gmx.net>
 <almarsoft.9199281576443898048@news.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4427.1387522665.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjefcFrvtcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4442.1387562477.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhlj5pFb2ooU1@mid.individual.net>

Den 2013-12-20 skrev Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>:
> On 20/12/2013 17:52, Martin Sch??n wrote:
>>
>> Coming from many years of SUN Solaris experience I may be a bit
>> spoiled when it comes to robustness :-)
>>
>
> You never had the pleasure of working on VMS then? :)
>
Only very, very little and I have no clear memories of it. It was
back in the days before I learned to save my work every few seconds
just in case because just in case didn't happen to us then.

I took OS stability for granted in those days.

/Martin


From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:01:27 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:01:27 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <52AE4A86.8040402@arcor.de>
 <mailman.4174.1387169545.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131217160127.6596016d795429eb1a29699a@gmx.net>

> For example Firefox implements its entire GUI in
> Javascript using XML GUI definitions.

Which has made Firefox essentially unusable because it will fall into
koma ("Not Responding") for minutes upon almost each and every
mouseclick. Unfortunately I don't know any significantly better
alternatives.

> And all modern web apps are a combination of many languages and
> domains, most of which are "compiled" in the traditional sense.

"Web apps" are the most efficient way I know of to make users who have
to get actual work done as inefficient as possible. It's especially an
extremely effective way, together with Firefox's "responsiveness", to
make any operating system as obscenely unusable as Windows.
 
Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 11:34:25 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 08:34:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <65658b65-7f84-4dfa-ad6e-b0c53273aabe@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:12:16 PM UTC+8, Jai wrote:
> GUI:-want to learn GUI programming in python  , how should i proceed.
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of book here so I am  confuse which book  i should refer so that i don't waste time . please answer

Please check JYTHON and those 
ready-for-novice GUI tools in java.

Python is a higher level language 
that can support manny lower 
level languages.


From feliphil at gmx.net  Tue Dec 17 10:00:23 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:00:23 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <65658b65-7f84-4dfa-ad6e-b0c53273aabe@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131217160023.b84e44626eeabc23ccfbf8d2@gmx.net>

> Please check JYTHON and those ready-for-novice GUI tools in java.

All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage.

Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the
GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so
hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java
applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity
than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a "web application"
might top it.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:13:23 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:13:23 -0700
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131217160023.b84e44626eeabc23ccfbf8d2@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <65658b65-7f84-4dfa-ad6e-b0c53273aabe@googlegroups.com>
 <20131217160023.b84e44626eeabc23ccfbf8d2@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <52B09443.6080906@gmail.com>

On 12/17/2013 08:00 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> Please check JYTHON and those ready-for-novice GUI tools in java.
> 
> All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage.
> 
> Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but the
> GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and feel is so
> hideous that I would say from personal experience with numerous Java
> applications that there is little that's worse for user productivity
> than a Java application running on Windows. Well, a "web application"
> might top it.

Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your
computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it?  You've
already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java.  Surely Python must
suck also because it's slow and interpreted.


From feliphil at gmx.net  Thu Dec 19 10:10:30 2013
From: feliphil at gmx.net (Wolfgang Keller)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 16:10:30 +0100
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python  ,
 how should i proceed.
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <65658b65-7f84-4dfa-ad6e-b0c53273aabe@googlegroups.com>
 <20131217160023.b84e44626eeabc23ccfbf8d2@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4303.1387304032.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131219161030.dfbca97eaef6df1c6c92a6fa@gmx.net>

> > All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage.
> > 
> > Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but
> > the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and
> > feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with
> > numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for
> > user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well,
> > a "web application" might top it.
> 
> Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your
> computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it?  You've
> already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java.

If Windows, Firefox, "the web" and Java are "everything" that you know
of in terms of IT, then I pity those poor people who have to succumb
to your "competence".

> Surely Python must suck also because it's slow and interpreted.

I don't draw skewed parallels.

Instead I base my judgments on my personal experience from those
decades of screenwork for various tasks with various applications on
various systems, correlated with the experience of all those
knowledgeable people I've learned to know during that time, as well as
logical deductive thinking.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 19 10:22:10 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:22:10 -0500
Subject: GUI:-please answer  want to learn GUI programming in python 
 , how should i proceed.
In-Reply-To: <20131219161030.dfbca97eaef6df1c6c92a6fa@gmx.net>
References: <9f5d28ce-504d-40db-baa2-ff3699ab05c7@googlegroups.com>
 <65658b65-7f84-4dfa-ad6e-b0c53273aabe@googlegroups.com>
 <20131217160023.b84e44626eeabc23ccfbf8d2@gmx.net>
 <mailman.4303.1387304032.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <20131219161030.dfbca97eaef6df1c6c92a6fa@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <l8v2un$7tn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/19/13 10:10 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>>> All Java GUI frameworks I know of are ridiculous garbage.
>>>
>>> Not only that Java per se is obscenely fat (and unresponsive), but
>>> the GUI frameworks leak like bottomless barrels and the look and
>>> feel is so hideous that I would say from personal experience with
>>> numerous Java applications that there is little that's worse for
>>> user productivity than a Java application running on Windows. Well,
>>> a "web application" might top it.
>>
>> Pray tell is there anything that is not ridiculous garbage or is your
>> computer so hopelessly broken that everything fails on it?  You've
>> already dissed on Windows, Firefox, the web, Java.
>
> If Windows, Firefox, "the web" and Java are "everything" that you know
> of in terms of IT, then I pity those poor people who have to succumb
> to your "competence".

He didn't say it was all he knew. It sounds like you are saying he is 
incompetent.  I hope that isn't what you meant.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From lightaiyee at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 10:29:56 2013
From: lightaiyee at gmail.com (JL)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 07:29:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
Message-ID: <f6132b6d-07ad-4931-995d-a1e1430ed974@googlegroups.com>

I have a number of python processes which communicate with each other through writing/reading config text files. The python ConfigParser is used. I am wondering if it is more CPU-efficient to switch to using sqlite database instead of using configuration files. If the software does plenty of reading/writing, is it more efficient to use config text files or sqlite database?

Thank you.


From irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl  Sat Dec 14 10:40:34 2013
From: irmen.NOSPAM at xs4all.nl (Irmen de Jong)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:40:34 +0100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <f6132b6d-07ad-4931-995d-a1e1430ed974@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6132b6d-07ad-4931-995d-a1e1430ed974@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ac7bf3$0$2963$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>

On 14-12-2013 16:29, JL wrote:
> I have a number of python processes which communicate with each other through
> writing/reading config text files. The python ConfigParser is used. I am wondering if
> it is more CPU-efficient to switch to using sqlite database instead of using
> configuration files. If the software does plenty of reading/writing, is it more
> efficient to use config text files or sqlite database?
> 
> Thank you.
> 

I think you're asking the wrong question...
Both options will very likely be constrained by I/O instead of CPU (in other words: do
you know for certain that you have a CPU-bottleneck right now?)
But both of them aren't well suited for inter process communication. Especially the
"reading/writing config files" sounds particularly sketchy.

Take a look at the myriad of options for *proper* inter-process communication (if that
is what you're after). It also helps to describe your situation in more detail so we can
give better answers.

Cheers,
Irmen




From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Dec 14 11:15:18 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:15:18 -0600
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or
 read/write sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <f6132b6d-07ad-4931-995d-a1e1430ed974@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6132b6d-07ad-4931-995d-a1e1430ed974@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131214101518.69b040dc@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-14 07:29, JL wrote:
> I have a number of python processes which communicate with each
> other through writing/reading config text files. The python
> ConfigParser is used. I am wondering if it is more CPU-efficient to
> switch to using sqlite database instead of using configuration
> files. If the software does plenty of reading/writing, is it more
> efficient to use config text files or sqlite database?

I'm pretty sure that the CPU aspect doesn't really play into things.
A few thoughts:

+ You'll be I/O bound most of the time.  Even if you used a ramdisk
  to reduce disk access delays, accessing multiple .txt files requires
  the OS to do permission-checking each time, while a single sqlite
  file gets checked once upon opening the DB initially.
+ text-files are fragile unless you take extra pains to keep things
  atomic
+ sqlite guarantee* atomicity, so you either see all-or-nothing
+ sqlite is also very efficient for querying
+ sticking with plain-text config files is just asking for some sort
  of race-condition or partial-file issue to come up
+ sqlite may give you less CPU load is just an added benefit


-tkc


* well, except on NFS shares and other places where file-locking is
  unreliable


From cs at zip.com.au  Sun Dec 15 18:12:28 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:12:28 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131214101518.69b040dc@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20131214101518.69b040dc@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20131215231228.GA6608@cskk.homeip.net>

On 14Dec2013 10:15, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 2013-12-14 07:29, JL wrote:
> > I have a number of python processes which communicate with each
> > other through writing/reading config text files. The python
> > ConfigParser is used. I am wondering if it is more CPU-efficient to
> > switch to using sqlite database instead of using configuration
> > files. If the software does plenty of reading/writing, is it more
> > efficient to use config text files or sqlite database?
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the CPU aspect doesn't really play into things.
> A few thoughts:
> 
> + You'll be I/O bound most of the time.  Even if you used a ramdisk
>   to reduce disk access delays, accessing multiple .txt files requires
>   the OS to do permission-checking each time, while a single sqlite
>   file gets checked once upon opening the DB initially.
> + text-files are fragile unless you take extra pains to keep things
>   atomic
> + sqlite guarantee* atomicity, so you either see all-or-nothing
> + sqlite is also very efficient for querying

Annoyingly, sqlite:

  + only lets one process access the db at a time, taking you back to
    a similar situation as with config files

  + only lets you access the db from the same thread in which it
    was opened, outstandingly annoying; I've had to gratuitously
    refactor code because of this

  + traditionally, sqlite is extreme fsync() happy; forces a disc
    level flush on each commit - extremely slow on busy databases,
    not to mention hard of drives

> + sticking with plain-text config files is just asking for some sort
>   of race-condition or partial-file issue to come up

A locking mechanism will be required. Lockfiles work quite well.

> + sqlite may give you less CPU load is just an added benefit
> 
> * well, except on NFS shares and other places where file-locking is
>   unreliable

Backing off to config files, making a lock directory is NFS safe.
So is opening a lock file for write with zero permissions (low level
open with mode=0).

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

I drank what?!? - Socrates


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 18:50:16 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:50:16 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131215231228.GA6608@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20131214101518.69b040dc@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215231228.GA6608@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrS5qZx5oTFQwM5Y0UtLnR24dwbkWmHC2tRDwiGqMQDRw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>   + traditionally, sqlite is extreme fsync() happy; forces a disc
>     level flush on each commit - extremely slow on busy databases,
>     not to mention hard of drives

I'd say that's correct behaviour. A commit should be sync'd to disk.
If you don't want it to go to the disk yet, don't commit yet!

ChrisA


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sun Dec 15 19:07:54 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 18:07:54 -0600
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or
 read/write sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131215231228.GA6608@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20131214101518.69b040dc@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131215231228.GA6608@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20131215180754.404b0abc@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-16 10:12, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 14Dec2013 10:15, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> Annoyingly, sqlite:
> 
>   + only lets one process access the db at a time, taking you back
> to a similar situation as with config files

Is this a Python limitation?  According to the docs[1], it's not a
sqlite limitation (except, as noted, on non-locking filesystems like
NFS)

>   + only lets you access the db from the same thread in which it
>     was opened, outstandingly annoying; I've had to gratuitously
>     refactor code because of this

I do believe that limitation does hold though depending on the
build-options with which sqlite was compiled [2], though it might be
somewhat different from within Python where the GIL could
possibly prevent actual OS-level-thread issues.

>   + traditionally, sqlite is extreme fsync() happy; forces a disc
>     level flush on each commit - extremely slow on busy databases,
>     not to mention hard of drives

I'd say this is the right thing for a DB to do.  If it comes back
from a commit() call, it better be on that disk, barring a failure
of the physical hardware.  If it comes back from a commit() and data
gets lost because of a power-failure, something is wrong.

> > * well, except on NFS shares and other places where file-locking
> > is unreliable
> 
> Backing off to config files, making a lock directory is NFS safe.
> So is opening a lock file for write with zero permissions (low level
> open with mode=0).

Interesting.  I haven't used NFS in a long time for anything other
than quick experiments, so it's nice to file this away.  Do you have
a link to some official docs corroborating what you state?

-tkc

[1] http://sqlite.org/faq.html#q5
[2] http://sqlite.org/faq.html#q6







From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec 17 21:37:01 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:37:01 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131215180754.404b0abc@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <20131215180754.404b0abc@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20131218023701.GA54061@cskk.homeip.net>

On 15Dec2013 18:07, Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> >   + only lets one process access the db at a time, taking you back
> > to a similar situation as with config files
> 
> Is this a Python limitation?  According to the docs[1], it's not a
> sqlite limitation (except, as noted, on non-locking filesystems like
> NFS)

I stand corrected. I may have been mislead by apps that keep the
write lock excessively.

> >   + only lets you access the db from the same thread in which it
> >     was opened, outstandingly annoying; I've had to gratuitously
> >     refactor code because of this
> 
> I do believe that limitation does hold though depending on the
> build-options with which sqlite was compiled [2], though it might be
> somewhat different from within Python where the GIL could
> possibly prevent actual OS-level-thread issues.

The GIL might allow this in principle. In practice, I've had to
jump through hoops in Python to force all db ops to happen in a
particular thread.

> >   + traditionally, sqlite is extreme fsync() happy; forces a disc
> >     level flush on each commit - extremely slow on busy databases,
> >     not to mention hard of drives
> 
> I'd say this is the right thing for a DB to do.  If it comes back
> from a commit() call, it better be on that disk, barring a failure
> of the physical hardware.  If it comes back from a commit() and data
> gets lost because of a power-failure, something is wrong.

Depends on your view. People seem to treat dbs as some special form
of data storage. I don't; to me they're no different to storing
data in any other file. Do you do an fsync() every time you close
a file you've written? Of course not, it is a gratuitous performance
loss.  IMO, I've handed the data to the filesystem layer; its
integrity is now the OS's problem.

Now, if you _want_ to fsync on every commit, be my guest. It could
even be the default behaviour. But FFS let me turn it off easily.

The situation is made worse by fsync() implementations that are
equivalent to whole-filesystem sync(). (I'm looking at you, Linux
ext3!)

> > > * well, except on NFS shares and other places where file-locking
> > > is unreliable
> > 
> > Backing off to config files, making a lock directory is NFS safe.
> > So is opening a lock file for write with zero permissions (low level
> > open with mode=0).
> 
> Interesting.  I haven't used NFS in a long time for anything other
> than quick experiments, so it's nice to file this away.  Do you have
> a link to some official docs corroborating what you state?

Only that I'm fairly sure mkdir and open are NFS primitives. They
take place atomicly at the remote end. You can't mkdir something
twice (EEXIST) and an open with mode=0 creates an unwritable file.
A subsequent open-for-write-with=mode=0 will fail, lacking write
permission.
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Knox's box is a 286.                 Fox in Socks does hacks and tricks
Knox's box is hard to fix.           To fix poor Knox's box for kicks.
        - David Mar <mar at physics.su.oz.au>,
          as quoted by John Mackin <john at civil.su.oz.au>


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:35:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:35:51 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131218023701.GA54061@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20131215180754.404b0abc@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131218023701.GA54061@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>> I'd say this is the right thing for a DB to do.  If it comes back
>> from a commit() call, it better be on that disk, barring a failure
>> of the physical hardware.  If it comes back from a commit() and data
>> gets lost because of a power-failure, something is wrong.
>
> Depends on your view. People seem to treat dbs as some special form
> of data storage. I don't; to me they're no different to storing
> data in any other file. Do you do an fsync() every time you close
> a file you've written? Of course not, it is a gratuitous performance
> loss.  IMO, I've handed the data to the filesystem layer; its
> integrity is now the OS's problem.

An SQL database *is* a different form of storage. It's storing tabular
data, not a stream of bytes in a file. You're supposed to be able to
treat it as an efficient way to locate a particular tuple based on a
set of rules, not a different way to format a file on the disk. If you
want file semantics, use a file. Otherwise, what do you expect
commit() to do?

Also: the filesystem layer doesn't guarantee integrity. If you don't
fsync() or fdatasync() or some other equivalent [1], it's not on the
disk yet, so you can't trust it.

ChrisA

[1] See eg the PostgreSQL info on the subject:
http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.3/static/runtime-config-wal.html#GUC-WAL-SYNC-METHOD


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Dec 18 05:31:48 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:31:48 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>

On 18Dec2013 14:35, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> >> I'd say this is the right thing for a DB to do.  If it comes back
> >> from a commit() call, it better be on that disk, barring a failure
> >> of the physical hardware.  If it comes back from a commit() and data
> >> gets lost because of a power-failure, something is wrong.
> >
> > Depends on your view. People seem to treat dbs as some special form
> > of data storage. I don't; to me they're no different to storing
> > data in any other file. Do you do an fsync() every time you close
> > a file you've written? Of course not, it is a gratuitous performance
> > loss.  IMO, I've handed the data to the filesystem layer; its
> > integrity is now the OS's problem.
> 
> An SQL database *is* a different form of storage. It's storing tabular
> data, not a stream of bytes in a file. You're supposed to be able to
> treat it as an efficient way to locate a particular tuple based on a
> set of rules, not a different way to format a file on the disk.

Shrug. It's all just data to me. I don't _care_ about the particular
internal storage format.

> If you
> want file semantics, use a file. Otherwise, what do you expect
> commit() to do?

I expect commit() to update the db state, as presented to me via
whatever SQL interface I'm using, to reflect the sum of SQL changes
in the transaction versus unwinding those changes.

Whether they have reached a physical disk and been written onto
tiny ferrous oxide particules using magnet: I don't care. I expect
the OS to get the relevant storage to a permanent medium in due
course.

Commit() is a logical operation saying this SQL changeset is now
part of the global state.

Now, a db may involved an fsync() in that commit to beat the hard
drive into claiming to have stroed the data, and that may well be
desirable. Almost always.

But really, you should have the same requirements of an arbitrary
file you write as you do for a db, other things being equal.

> Also: the filesystem layer doesn't guarantee integrity. If you don't
> fsync() or fdatasync() or some other equivalent [1], it's not on the
> disk yet, so you can't trust it.

Course I can. There's plenty of scope within the disc physical layer
(buffering, caching, RAID card buffering) for an fsync() to return
_before_ the data are written to ferrous oxide (or whatever) because
the OS DOES NOT KNOW.

All that has happened after an fsync() is that the OS taken your
SQL changeset that you commited to the OS data abstraction and
pushed it one layer lower into the "disk" abstraction. There's more
going on in there.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is
no 'them' out there. It's just an awful lot of 'us'. - Douglas Adams


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 05:50:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:50:00 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrwvK3PQHvvBb2Nr06kDuqEhJ+yO99mX3k83V=vLqrrxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 18Dec2013 14:35, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> An SQL database *is* a different form of storage. It's storing tabular
>> data, not a stream of bytes in a file. You're supposed to be able to
>> treat it as an efficient way to locate a particular tuple based on a
>> set of rules, not a different way to format a file on the disk.
>
> Shrug. It's all just data to me. I don't _care_ about the particular
> internal storage format.

Then use a file, because you want file semantics. That's why you have
both options available.

> Commit() is a logical operation saying this SQL changeset is now
> part of the global state.

The global state is defined by what's on the disk. Specifically, by
what would be read if the power failed right at that moment. In the
case of PostgreSQL, a commit doesn't actually write the table pages -
it just writes the WAL (Write-Ahead Log), which is used to recreate
the transaction. If something fails hard, the WAL replay will apply
the change perfectly. That's the global state. It's not there till the
WAL's been fsync'd.

>> Also: the filesystem layer doesn't guarantee integrity. If you don't
>> fsync() or fdatasync() or some other equivalent [1], it's not on the
>> disk yet, so you can't trust it.
>
> Course I can. There's plenty of scope within the disc physical layer
> (buffering, caching, RAID card buffering) for an fsync() to return
> _before_ the data are written to ferrous oxide (or whatever) because
> the OS DOES NOT KNOW.

The theory of fsync is that it's actually written. If it's been
written to a battery-backed cache that will be flushed to platters
successfully even if the power fails, then it's been fsync'd. That's
not a problem. It *is* a problem if it's been written to a volatile
cache on an SSD and there's more than can be written in the event of a
power failure. That's why there are only two lines of SSD (Intel 320
and 710 series) that are recommended for use with PGSQL.

> All that has happened after an fsync() is that the OS taken your
> SQL changeset that you commited to the OS data abstraction and
> pushed it one layer lower into the "disk" abstraction. There's more
> going on in there.

Not just pushed it one layer lower; the point of fsync is that it's
been pushed all the way down. See its man page [1]:

"""fsync() transfers ("flushes") all modified in-core data ... to the
disk ... so that all changed information can be retrieved even after
the system crashed or was rebooted."""

It's fundamentally about crash recovery, not about "passing it to a
lower abstraction". Of course, the OS isn't always *able* to guarantee
things (NFS shares are notoriously hard to pin down), but the
intention of fsync is that it won't return (and therefore the COMMIT
operation won't finish) until the data can be read back reliably even
in the event of a major failure.

Databases protect against that. If you want that protection, use a
database. If you don't, use a file. There's nothing wrong with either
option.

ChrisA

[1] on the web here, for those who don't have them handy:
http://linux.die.net/man/2/fsync


From cs at zip.com.au  Thu Dec 19 02:56:42 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 18:56:42 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrwvK3PQHvvBb2Nr06kDuqEhJ+yO99mX3k83V=vLqrrxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmrwvK3PQHvvBb2Nr06kDuqEhJ+yO99mX3k83V=vLqrrxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131219075642.GA11967@cskk.homeip.net>

On 18Dec2013 21:50, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> It's fundamentally about crash recovery, [...]
> Databases protect against that. If you want that protection, use a
> database. If you don't, use a file. There's nothing wrong with either
> option.

Look, broadly I agree. But this thread was about sharing access to
configs etc between processes. And it segued into suggesting sqlite.
Which is good and bad.

My point here is that here we were discussing cooperative access
to some shared state. And a "database" is tossed into the mix, with
its -- for this purpose --- overkill data integrity provisions.

So I feel obliged to point out the performance costs associated
with using a sledgehammer to bang in a tack.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Churchill's Commentary on Man: Man will occasionally stumble over the truth,
but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 03:18:44 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:18:44 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <20131219075642.GA11967@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CAPTjJmrwvK3PQHvvBb2Nr06kDuqEhJ+yO99mX3k83V=vLqrrxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131219075642.GA11967@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmouHE03u43EsP=o7bLV+EpUPxnpqT3xPLw4sSGkXR5atQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 6:56 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 18Dec2013 21:50, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> It's fundamentally about crash recovery, [...]
>> Databases protect against that. If you want that protection, use a
>> database. If you don't, use a file. There's nothing wrong with either
>> option.
>
> Look, broadly I agree. But this thread was about sharing access to
> configs etc between processes. And it segued into suggesting sqlite.
> Which is good and bad.
>
> My point here is that here we were discussing cooperative access
> to some shared state. And a "database" is tossed into the mix, with
> its -- for this purpose --- overkill data integrity provisions.
>
> So I feel obliged to point out the performance costs associated
> with using a sledgehammer to bang in a tack.

Fair enough. So the correct decision in this instance may well be: Use
a file, because you don't want a database.

On the flip side, maybe the data integrity guarantees *are* what you
want. Depends how often you're updating those files.

ChrisA


From encore1 at cox.net  Wed Dec 18 12:49:52 2013
From: encore1 at cox.net (dick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:49:52 -0800
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4344.1387363803.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:50:00 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 9:31 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
>> On 18Dec2013 14:35, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> An SQL database *is* a different form of storage. It's storing tabular
>>> data, not a stream of bytes in a file. You're supposed to be able to
>>> treat it as an efficient way to locate a particular tuple based on a
>>> set of rules, not a different way to format a file on the disk.
>>
>> Shrug. It's all just data to me. I don't _care_ about the particular
>> internal storage format.
>
>Then use a file, because you want file semantics. That's why you have
>both options available.
>
>> Commit() is a logical operation saying this SQL changeset is now
>> part of the global state.
>
>The global state is defined by what's on the disk. Specifically, by
>what would be read if the power failed right at that moment. In the
>case of PostgreSQL, a commit doesn't actually write the table pages -
>it just writes the WAL (Write-Ahead Log), which is used to recreate
>the transaction. If something fails hard, the WAL replay will apply
>the change perfectly. That's the global state. It's not there till the
>WAL's been fsync'd.
>
  <snip>
>
>> All that has happened after an fsync() is that the OS taken your
>> SQL changeset that you commited to the OS data abstraction and
>> pushed it one layer lower into the "disk" abstraction. There's more
>> going on in there.
>
>Not just pushed it one layer lower; the point of fsync is that it's
>been pushed all the way down. See its man page [1]:
>
>"""fsync() transfers ("flushes") all modified in-core data ... to the
>disk ... so that all changed information can be retrieved even after
>the system crashed or was rebooted."""
>
>It's fundamentally about crash recovery, not about "passing it to a
>lower abstraction". Of course, the OS isn't always *able* to guarantee
>things (NFS shares are notoriously hard to pin down), but the
>intention of fsync is that it won't return (and therefore the COMMIT
>operation won't finish) until the data can be read back reliably even
>in the event of a major failure.
>
>Databases protect against that. If you want that protection, use a
>database. If you don't, use a file. There's nothing wrong with either
>option.
>
>ChrisA
>
>[1] on the web here, for those who don't have them handy:
>http://linux.die.net/man/2/fsync

Don't forget that most hard disks have an option to cache the write
data. This is a 'feature' that allows the manufacturers to claim
better write performance. You can't be sure when the data is written
to the disk if that option is in play.

Dick


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 18 13:00:50 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:00:50 -0600
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or
 read/write sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4344.1387363803.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20131218120050.0cf0b34f@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-18 09:49, dick wrote:
> Don't forget that most hard disks have an option to cache the write
> data. This is a 'feature' that allows the manufacturers to claim
> better write performance. You can't be sure when the data is written
> to the disk if that option is in play.

However, my understanding is that they have a small on-drive
battery/capacitor that stores sufficient energy for the cached
write(s) to complete in the event the system's power abruptly cuts
off.

Granted, this is purely hearsay, as it's been a long time since I
mucked around with hardware much.

-tkc





From encore1 at cox.net  Wed Dec 18 18:14:55 2013
From: encore1 at cox.net (dick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:14:55 -0800
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4344.1387363803.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4368.1387389583.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iva4b9d7ip3u3g75kamttpl81c39hvehu0@4ax.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:00:50 -0600, Tim Chase
<python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:

>On 2013-12-18 09:49, dick wrote:
>> Don't forget that most hard disks have an option to cache the write
>> data. This is a 'feature' that allows the manufacturers to claim
>> better write performance. You can't be sure when the data is written
>> to the disk if that option is in play.
>
>However, my understanding is that they have a small on-drive
>battery/capacitor that stores sufficient energy for the cached
>write(s) to complete in the event the system's power abruptly cuts
>off.
>
>Granted, this is purely hearsay, as it's been a long time since I
>mucked around with hardware much.
>
>-tkc
>
>
The drives may have something like that now, but they didn't have any
power down flush capability when I was working for WD. Of course, that
was 15 years ago...

Dick


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 19:56:42 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:56:42 +1100
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or read/write
 sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <qhf4b9puq8jcpggr0csvujdpnur3at72qu@4ax.com>
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4344.1387363803.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4368.1387389583.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iva4b9d7ip3u3g75kamttpl81c39hvehu0@4ax.com>
 <qhf4b9puq8jcpggr0csvujdpnur3at72qu@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmroVjVbxB2iYg0e+3WV-ytzYvAHfPtXTTObD7hHcDMECQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:14:55 -0800, dick <encore1 at cox.net> declaimed the
> following:
>
>>The drives may have something like that now, but they didn't have any
>>power down flush capability when I was working for WD. Of course, that
>>was 15 years ago...
>>
>         And I remember days when I used to run a bat file to park the drive
> heads before power down.

I grew up with that!

Heads parked on one drive.

ChrisA


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Wed Dec 18 21:06:34 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:06:34 -0600
Subject: Is it more CPU-efficient to read/write config file or
 read/write sqlite database?
In-Reply-To: <iva4b9d7ip3u3g75kamttpl81c39hvehu0@4ax.com>
References: <CAPTjJmosFOViwKquzDFiPzAd3HaBY3OX3ht4sP5GHhfJJhtmPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131218103148.GA2728@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4344.1387363803.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iln3b99rqvioro188l8d7tivtluhse44mt@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4368.1387389583.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <iva4b9d7ip3u3g75kamttpl81c39hvehu0@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20131218200634.62250272@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-18 15:14, dick wrote:
>>However, my understanding is that they have a small on-drive
>>battery/capacitor that stores sufficient energy for the cached
>>write(s) to complete in the event the system's power abruptly cuts
>>off.
>>
>>Granted, this is purely hearsay, as it's been a long time since I
>>mucked around with hardware much.
>>  
> The drives may have something like that now, but they didn't have
> any power down flush capability when I was working for WD. Of
> course, that was 15 years ago...

<old_fart>
Indeed, I certainly remember launching park.exe on my DOS & Win95
machines to flush write-caches and park the heads in preparation of
power-down.
</old_fart>
I recall being told by multiple hardware professionals
since 2000 that such wasn't needed any more.  I don't have reason to
doubt them, especially as I no longer see references to parking heads
in any OS or add-on utility.

At least on linux (possibly the BSDs too), one can specify that
particular mounts are done with the "sync" option to force all writes
to make it to the metal/EEPROM before returning, though I don't think
this is the default.

-tkc





From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 13:54:09 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:54:09 +0000
Subject: collections Counter most_common method
Message-ID: <l8i9gj$1b9$1@ger.gmane.org>

This method returns a list, the example from The Fine Docs being:-

 >>> Counter('abracadabra').most_common(3)
[('a', 5), ('r', 2), ('b', 2)]

With the trend in Python being more and more towards methods returning 
iterators, is there ever likely to be an imost_common method, or has 
this been suggested and rejected, or what?  I'm really just curious, but 
if enough people were to express an interest and it hasn't already been 
done, I'd happily raise an enhancement request on the bug tracker.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec 14 14:37:15 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:37:15 -0500
Subject: collections Counter most_common method
References: <mailman.4121.1387047279.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-51C15C.14371414122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4121.1387047279.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> This method returns a list, the example from The Fine Docs being:-
> 
>  >>> Counter('abracadabra').most_common(3)
> [('a', 5), ('r', 2), ('b', 2)]
> 
> With the trend in Python being more and more towards methods returning 
> iterators, is there ever likely to be an imost_common method, or has 
> this been suggested and rejected, or what?  I'm really just curious, but 
> if enough people were to express an interest and it hasn't already been 
> done, I'd happily raise an enhancement request on the bug tracker.

The reason to return iterators instead of lists is that it's more 
efficient if the list is very long.  I would imagine the most common use 
cases for most_common() are to pass it a number like 3.  You typically 
want to find the most common, or the three most common, or maybe the 10 
most common.  It's rare that people want the 5000 most common.

So, while I suppose returning an iterator might be more efficient in 
some cases, those cases seem pretty rare.


From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Dec 14 14:42:27 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:42:27 +0100
Subject: collections Counter most_common method
References: <l8i9gj$1b9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8ic9m$rvt$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> This method returns a list, the example from The Fine Docs being:-
> 
>  >>> Counter('abracadabra').most_common(3)
> [('a', 5), ('r', 2), ('b', 2)]
> 
> With the trend in Python being more and more towards methods returning
> iterators, is there ever likely to be an imost_common method, or has
> this been suggested and rejected, or what?  I'm really just curious, but
> if enough people were to express an interest and it hasn't already been
> done, I'd happily raise an enhancement request on the bug tracker.

As Counter is currently a dict you have to look at all items to find the 
most common. With that underlying data structure I don't see how it could 
make sense to yield the most common items incrementally. So

(1) When would you prefer it over the the eager variant?
(2) How would you implement it?

By the way, if you can come up with a plausible answer for the second 
question you should aim higher, for lazy heapq.nlargest() and sorted() 
functions...



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 15 11:36:07 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:36:07 +0000
Subject: collections Counter most_common method
In-Reply-To: <l8ic9m$rvt$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l8i9gj$1b9$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8ic9m$rvt$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8klpd$mh5$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 14/12/2013 19:42, Peter Otten wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> This method returns a list, the example from The Fine Docs being:-
>>
>>   >>> Counter('abracadabra').most_common(3)
>> [('a', 5), ('r', 2), ('b', 2)]
>>
>> With the trend in Python being more and more towards methods returning
>> iterators, is there ever likely to be an imost_common method, or has
>> this been suggested and rejected, or what?  I'm really just curious, but
>> if enough people were to express an interest and it hasn't already been
>> done, I'd happily raise an enhancement request on the bug tracker.
>
> As Counter is currently a dict you have to look at all items to find the
> most common. With that underlying data structure I don't see how it could
> make sense to yield the most common items incrementally. So
>
> (1) When would you prefer it over the the eager variant?
> (2) How would you implement it?
>
> By the way, if you can come up with a plausible answer for the second
> question you should aim higher, for lazy heapq.nlargest() and sorted()
> functions...
>

Coming from my No. 1 MVP (Most Valuable Pythonista) I'll take that as an 
emphatic no :)

The good news from my POV is that while thinking about this, then 
looking at my code, I completely eliminated an unneeded data structure.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From arie.lakeman at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 19:35:40 2013
From: arie.lakeman at gmail.com (arie.lakeman at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:35:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
Message-ID: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

I thought it would be worth contributing some awareness of Yin Wang's PySonar2 Python static analyzer being open sourced, it's here https://github.com/yinwang0/pysonar2.  I recently converted it from being implemented in Java to being implemented in Python - here https://github.com/ariejdl/pysonarsq.  All the critical tests pass, it may interest pythonistas to be able to hack on something like this actually in Python.

Thanks,

Arie


From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 20:31:33 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 17:31:33 -0800
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 4:35 PM,  <arie.lakeman at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I thought it would be worth contributing some awareness of Yin Wang's PySonar2 Python static analyzer being open sourced, it's here https://github.com/yinwang0/pysonar2.  I recently converted it from being implemented in Java to being implemented in Python - here https://github.com/ariejdl/pysonarsq.  All the critical tests pass, it may interest pythonistas to be able to hack on something like this actually in Python.

This is interesting.

Where does PySonar2 sit in the spectrum from pylint
(thorough/pedantic) to pyflakes (relaxed/few-false-positives)?

I use pylint and pyflakes a lot, and I've heard that PyChecker sits in
between them on this axis.


From clp2 at rebertia.com  Sat Dec 14 21:36:56 2013
From: clp2 at rebertia.com (Chris Rebert)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 18:36:56 -0800
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMZYqRRKFe0-8Sdd4qgXHL_E2++JPOFTUcKJSF=SG_z3JHHXug@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Where does PySonar2 sit in the spectrum from pylint
> (thorough/pedantic) to pyflakes (relaxed/few-false-positives)?
>
> I use pylint and pyflakes a lot, and I've heard that PyChecker sits in
> between them on this axis.

My impression is that PyChecker has been abandoned.
The last commit in its SourceForge CVS repo is from 2008, and `pip
install PyChecker` fails.

Cheers,
Chris


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 14 21:56:03 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 02:56:03 +0000
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <CAMZYqRRKFe0-8Sdd4qgXHL_E2++JPOFTUcKJSF=SG_z3JHHXug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMZYqRRKFe0-8Sdd4qgXHL_E2++JPOFTUcKJSF=SG_z3JHHXug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8j5o5$6b8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 15/12/2013 02:36, Chris Rebert wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Where does PySonar2 sit in the spectrum from pylint
>> (thorough/pedantic) to pyflakes (relaxed/few-false-positives)?
>>
>> I use pylint and pyflakes a lot, and I've heard that PyChecker sits in
>> between them on this axis.
>
> My impression is that PyChecker has been abandoned.
> The last commit in its SourceForge CVS repo is from 2008, and `pip
> install PyChecker` fails.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>

I've no idea as to the real status of Pyflakes so hopefully this 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/code-quality/2013-December/000189.html 
is just a temporary hickup.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From arie.lakeman at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 15:25:18 2013
From: arie.lakeman at gmail.com (arie.lakeman at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 12:25:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4133.1387075322.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4133.1387075322.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5efb51fe-6b07-4e03-83b4-5453d51d9310@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, 15 December 2013 02:36:56 UTC, Chris Rebert  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Where does PySonar2 sit in the spectrum from pylint
> 
> > (thorough/pedantic) to pyflakes (relaxed/few-false-positives)?
> 
> >
> 
> > I use pylint and pyflakes a lot, and I've heard that PyChecker sits in
> 
> > between them on this axis.
> 
> 
> 
> My impression is that PyChecker has been abandoned.
> 
> The last commit in its SourceForge CVS repo is from 2008, and `pip
> 
> install PyChecker` fails.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris

Hi Chris,

I can't comment on the comparative sophistication of PySonar2 to pylint and pyflakes, my experience of those two projects is as code quality tools, whereas I've been using PySonar2 for things along the lines of indexing code at a more semantic level, something I'm satisfied with.

Here's a comment on a reddit post about PySonar a month ago

http://www.reddit.com/comments/1piusr

`
Yin Wang is awesome and his work on programming languages and type inference is super impressive. We've been using his PySonar (v1) to build a global index of Python code and it works far better than we or anyone would have expected, for a dynamic language.
Here are some examples of what PySonar can do:
Finding everywhere a function is used
Python stdlib, sorted by most-used functions
All usages of the Django URL render_to_response function
All usages of the Flask @app.route decorator
This is all done using PySonar v1-based static analysis on Python code. PySonar v2 is even better.
`

I've referred Yin to this google group post.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 15 16:00:25 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:00:25 +0000
Subject: a Python Static Analyzer
In-Reply-To: <5efb51fe-6b07-4e03-83b4-5453d51d9310@googlegroups.com>
References: <6d2c938b-dd66-4de6-8422-aaa55fcc2e1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CAGGBd_rm9Woo+dTxdrp-60TDSQG9unWwAEjy15u-QEtr7+ycag@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4133.1387075322.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5efb51fe-6b07-4e03-83b4-5453d51d9310@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8l58v$lbp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 15/12/2013 20:25, arie.lakeman at gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 December 2013 02:36:56 UTC, Chris Rebert  wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Where does PySonar2 sit in the spectrum from pylint
>>
>>> (thorough/pedantic) to pyflakes (relaxed/few-false-positives)?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I use pylint and pyflakes a lot, and I've heard that PyChecker sits in
>>
>>> between them on this axis.
>>
>>
>>
>> My impression is that PyChecker has been abandoned.
>>
>> The last commit in its SourceForge CVS repo is from 2008, and `pip
>>
>> install PyChecker` fails.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Chris
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> I can't comment on the comparative sophistication of PySonar2 to pylint and pyflakes, my experience of those two projects is as code quality tools, whereas I've been using PySonar2 for things along the lines of indexing code at a more semantic level, something I'm satisfied with.
>
> Here's a comment on a reddit post about PySonar a month ago
>
> http://www.reddit.com/comments/1piusr
>
> `
> Yin Wang is awesome and his work on programming languages and type inference is super impressive. We've been using his PySonar (v1) to build a global index of Python code and it works far better than we or anyone would have expected, for a dynamic language.
> Here are some examples of what PySonar can do:
> Finding everywhere a function is used
> Python stdlib, sorted by most-used functions
> All usages of the Django URL render_to_response function
> All usages of the Flask @app.route decorator
> This is all done using PySonar v1-based static analysis on Python code. PySonar v2 is even better.
> `
>
> I've referred Yin to this google group post.
>

Looks like very good work, thanks for the data.

But please note that I'm reading this via email, not google groups.  If 
you'd care to look above, you'll observe the double line spacing that 
gets inserted into everything that we see from gg, unless you read and 
action this https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython  If you'd be 
kind enough to do this it would be greatly appreciated by many people 
here.  TIA.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Sat Dec 14 23:51:59 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:51:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
Message-ID: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>

Hey guys, I found this website that has a script in order to increase numbers to a live viewing stream. Being new to python, I keep running into problems trying to get it to work.

The original site is here, as he talks about how it works. It is the top article.

http://www.ericzhang.me/

I have successfully installed python 3.3 for windows, pip and livestreamer that is needed for it to work. They are in my scripts folder. I either do not understand the script or it no longer works. It is more than likely my error. I get errors on line 19 and cant get it to work at all.

The included code is located here

https://gist.github.com/Xeroday/6468146/raw/1b7fb468551a4ba5b73ea3c0b7bc47591c3a8c51/Twitch.py


If anybody could provide some incite on how to get it to work, how the variables work, and such, I would be so grateful!

Mark


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 15 00:03:41 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 15 Dec 2013 05:03:41 GMT
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ad382d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:51:59 -0800, Mark wrote:

> Hey guys, I found this website that has a script in order to increase
> numbers to a live viewing stream. Being new to python, I keep running
> into problems trying to get it to work.
> 
> The original site is here, as he talks about how it works. It is the top
> article.
> 
> http://www.ericzhang.me/
> 
> I have successfully installed python 3.3 for windows, 

Great! But what version of Python is that script written for?

[...]
> I get errors on line 19 and cant get it to work at all.

Errors plural? Multiple errors on one line? That's unusual.

Please copy and paste (don't summarise or re-type from memory) the entire 
traceback showing the full error you get. That is, copy and paste 
*everything* from the first line

    Traceback (most recent call last)


all the way to the end of the error message.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 00:06:36 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:06:36 +1100
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqt017Rf_S8f7nYD=Djm=h_=DzTx2qq_kFWN-3TJi9Drg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Mark <markyshizzle at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have successfully installed python 3.3 for windows, pip and livestreamer that is needed for it to work.

What I'm seeing in that script suggests that it actually needs Python
2.7, not 3.3. The best approach would be to make it work with Python
3, but if you can't do that, try installing Python 2.

But more generally, when you get errors, it helps *hugely* to copy and
paste the error - don't just say "on line 19", and leave us to guess
what error you're getting :)

ChrisA


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 10:25:24 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 15:25:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8khl3$uf5$2@dont-email.me>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:51:59 -0800, Mark wrote:

> I have successfully installed python 3.3 for windows, pip and
> livestreamer that is needed for it to work. They are in my scripts
> folder. I either do not understand the script or it no longer works. It
> is more than likely my error. I get errors on line 19 and cant get it to
> work at all.

If you're getting the "not enough goats and chickens sacrificed error", 
sacrifice more goats and chickens.

(Hint - it would help if you told us what the error was, and displayed at 
least the line the error occurs on and the preceding 10 lines or so)

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 16:19:47 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:19:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>

Thanks for the replies, I was hoping that one of you guys could actually try it for me, as it might be easier to correct? In the meantime i will install 2.7 instead of 3.3 and give it a try.

Once again, i have very little experience in this, which is why i am looking for help :) I am more worried about getting it to work then knowing whats wrong, but it could also be helpful haha

Thanks

Mark


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 16:31:10 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:31:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 4:19:47 PM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> Thanks for the replies, I was hoping that one of you guys could actually try it for me, as it might be easier to correct? In the meantime i will install 2.7 instead of 3.3 and give it a try.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, i have very little experience in this, which is why i am looking for help :) I am more worried about getting it to work then knowing whats wrong, but it could also be helpful haha
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Mark

I originally get an indent error on line 19, i delete the indent and i get 

***'return outside function (Twitch.py, line 19)

Thats where i am at. This is on version 2.7

If anybody could correct this for me or provide some incite. i would be very grateful. If any of you would be available for some sort of chat to fix it, I would also love to do something like that. 

Thanks again

Mark


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 17:10:19 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:10:19 +1100
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpr6nebzAC3YK_BLxLnxYpOhGBO-h3q1LGdPMhY+xGA7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:31 AM, Mark <markyshizzle at gmail.com> wrote:
> I originally get an indent error on line 19, i delete the indent and i get
>
> ***'return outside function (Twitch.py, line 19)

Good point, someone's made a mistake in that file. What you need to do
is match the "output = ..." line and the "return ..." line underneath
it. For consistency with the rest of the file, indent the "output"
line to match the other. That should make it work.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 15 20:37:48 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 16 Dec 2013 01:37:48 GMT
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 13:31:10 -0800, Mark wrote:

> I originally get an indent error on line 19, i delete the indent and i
> get
> 
> ***'return outside function (Twitch.py, line 19)
> 
> Thats where i am at. This is on version 2.7


Remember the bit where we asked you to copy and paste the entire error 
message, starting from the Traceback line? This is *important*, please do 
not ignore it. If you're going to ask for help from experts, pay 
attention to what the experts tell you.

At this point, I recommend you download the script again, since you've 
been making modifications to it and have probably introduced your own 
errors. Better to start again with a fresh copy in a known good state, 
rather than one that you've been making arbitrary changes to:

Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.

Step 2: try running that script using the correct version of Python.

Step 3: if it fails in some way, copy and paste the entire traceback. It 
may be that you're using it wrongly.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 21:33:17 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:33:17 +1100
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr4V_DBO7KLN_9KVvs401TNM10724v0NqrR5rX=2UbJBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
>

Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)

Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
way to fame?

ChrisA


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:09:38 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:09:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
> 
> OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> 
> buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
> 
> two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
> 
> 
> 
> Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
> 
> entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
> 
> stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
> 
> Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
> 
> way to fame?
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisA

Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.

So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
    numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
IndexError: list index out of range

Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
>>> 


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:43:54 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:43:54 +1100
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqk9vTQjR8+unyuiYJCSi8G69GH7ijYq=-Shg9zfNTZNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Mark <markyshizzle at gmail.com> wrote:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
>     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
> IndexError: list index out of range
>
> Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers

In Python, sys.argv is the arguments passed to the script. You need to
pass it some arguments when you run it.

ChrisA


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:43:45 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:43:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> > 
> 
> > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
> 
> > 
> 
> > OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> 
> > 
> 
> > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
> 
> > 
> 
> > two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
> 
> > 
> 
> > entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
> 
> > 
> 
> > stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
> 
> > 
> 
> > way to fame?
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > ChrisA
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
> 
> 
> 
> So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
> 
> 
> 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
>   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
> 
>     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
> 
> IndexError: list index out of range
> 
> 
> 
> Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
> 
> >>>

okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command - 
python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.

I get the following error in cmd:

Syntax Error: invalid syntax
>>>python twitch.py 10 10
   File "<stdin> line 1
     python twitch.py 10 10


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:47:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:47:00 +1100
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrVH-gchJwh_3esc4LWQfy6kFe7CTHhLpKWpZKe1Zss7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:43 PM, Mark <markyshizzle at gmail.com> wrote:
> Syntax Error: invalid syntax
>>>>python twitch.py 10 10
>    File "<stdin> line 1
>      python twitch.py 10 10

You're trying to run that from the interactive Python prompt. Run it
from the system - exit Python and run just this script.

ChrisA


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:48:56 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:48:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:43:45 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > way to fame?
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > ChrisA
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> > 
> 
> >   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
> 
> > 
> 
> >     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
> 
> > 
> 
> > IndexError: list index out of range
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
> 
> > 
> 
> > >>>
> 
> 
> 
> okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command - 
> 
> python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.
> 
> 
> 
> I get the following error in cmd:
> 
> 
> 
> Syntax Error: invalid syntax
> 
> >>>python twitch.py 10 10
> 
>    File "<stdin> line 1
> 
>      python twitch.py 10 10

is there a more effecient way of doing this? I just hold shift and right click to run cmd from the folder, 

File is located in C:\Python27\Scripts


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:52:05 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:52:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:48:56 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:43:45 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > way to fame?
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > ChrisA
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > IndexError: list index out of range
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > >>>
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command - 
> 
> > 
> 
> > python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I get the following error in cmd:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Syntax Error: invalid syntax
> 
> > 
> 
> > >>>python twitch.py 10 10
> 
> > 
> 
> >    File "<stdin> line 1
> 
> > 
> 
> >      python twitch.py 10 10
> 
> 
> 
> is there a more effecient way of doing this? I just hold shift and right click to run cmd from the folder, 
> 
> 
> 
> File is located in C:\Python27\Scripts

It was my understanding that you need to meet the arguments by running the in cmd with the numbers after? I am sorry to show my true noobyness and really appreciate the help.


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 02:55:23 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 23:55:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:52:05 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:48:56 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:43:45 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > >
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> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > > > > 
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> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
> 
> > > > > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
> 
> > > > > Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
> 
> > > > > stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > way to fame?
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > > 
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> > > > > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > ChrisA
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > >   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > >     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > IndexError: list index out of range
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > >>>
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command - 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I get the following error in cmd:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Syntax Error: invalid syntax
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > >>>python twitch.py 10 10
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >    File "<stdin> line 1
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >      python twitch.py 10 10
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > is there a more effecient way of doing this? I just hold shift and right click to run cmd from the folder, 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > File is located in C:\Python27\Scripts
> 
> 
> 
> It was my understanding that you need to meet the arguments by running the in cmd with the numbers after? I am sorry to show my true noobyness and really appreciate the help.

Here is a link to the actual file, maybe you can look at it and see if it looks good? Should i change anything else in the file to make it work theoretically or is it all done when you run it?

http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m10s9rwvatxd96/twitch.py


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 03:02:01 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:02:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:55:23 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:52:05 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:48:56 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:43:45 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > 
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > 
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> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > > > > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
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> > > > 
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> > 
> 
> > > > > > > Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
> 
> > 
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> > > 
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> > > > > > Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
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> > > > > > OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
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> > 
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> > > > > > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
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> > > > > > two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
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> > > > > > Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
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> > > > > > entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
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> > > > > > stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
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> > > > > > Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
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> > > > > > way to fame?
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> > > > > > ChrisA
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> > 
> 
> > > > > Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
> 
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> > > > > So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
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> > > > > Traceback (most recent call last):
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> > > > >   File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
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> > > > >     numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
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> > > > > IndexError: list index out of range
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> > > > > Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
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> > > > > >>>
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> > > > okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command - 
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> > 
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> > > > python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.
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> > > > I get the following error in cmd:
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> > > > Syntax Error: invalid syntax
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> > > > >>>python twitch.py 10 10
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> > 
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> > > >    File "<stdin> line 1
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> > > >      python twitch.py 10 10
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> > 
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> > > is there a more effecient way of doing this? I just hold shift and right click to run cmd from the folder, 
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> > 
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> > > File is located in C:\Python27\Scripts
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> > 
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> > 
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> > 
> 
> > It was my understanding that you need to meet the arguments by running the in cmd with the numbers after? I am sorry to show my true noobyness and really appreciate the help.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to the actual file, maybe you can look at it and see if it looks good? Should i change anything else in the file to make it work theoretically or is it all done when you run it?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m10s9rwvatxd96/twitch.py

If i just try to double click the script, i get an index error, i can barely see the window it disappears so fast, but thats what I see.


From frank at chagford.com  Mon Dec 16 03:38:53 2013
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:38:53 +0200
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8me6f$kb9$1@ger.gmane.org>


"Mark" <markyshizzle at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e at googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:55:23 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>
> If i just try to double click the script, i get an index error, i can 
> barely see the window it disappears so fast, but thats what I see.

I haven't really been following this thread, but I assume you are on 
Windows.

If so, you can open a Command Prompt from All Programs/Accessories, 'cd' to 
the folder containing your script, and type in the script name.

It will start, crash, and display the error, but the window will stay open, 
so you will be able to read the full traceback.

Normally the traceback provides enough clues that you can figure out for 
yourself what the problem is. But if you still cannot solve it, copy/paste 
the entire traceback and send it here. The chances are that someone can 
help.

BTW, did you notice that I removed the bulk of your original message, and 
left behind just enough to provide a context for your question and for my 
reply? This is good etiquette, and others will appreciate your doing the 
same.

Frank Millman





From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 04:28:15 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:28:15 +0000
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8mh35$kht$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 08:02, Mark wrote:

The record for double spaced google crap, congratulations.  Mind you, 
it's a great new game this, Spot the Text, much better than I Spy!!!

> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:55:23 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:52:05 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:48:56 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:43:45 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:09:38 AM UTC-5, Mark wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
>>>>>>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>>>>>>> Step 1: replace the modified version of the script with a known good copy.
>>
>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>
>>>>>>> Actually, this might be where the problem is, unfortunately. Not the
>>
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>>>>>>> OP's fault at all. I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
>>
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>>>>
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>>>>>>> buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the author has
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>>>>>>> two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug slipping in. I dunno.)
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>>>>>>> Along the way, though, I learned that the script in question is
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>> entirely for generating fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your
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>>>>>>> stream highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to help.
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>>>> Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just trying to cheat your
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>> way to fame?
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>>>>>
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>>>>>>> ChrisA
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just wanted to see if i could get it to work.
>>
>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>>> So after taking everybody's advice, fixed the indentation as mentioned by the expert above. :) After, this is what i came up with
>>
>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>> Traceback (most recent call last):
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>>>>>>    File "C:\Python27\Scripts\Twitch.py", line 9, in <module>
>>
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>>>>>>      numberOfViewers = int(sys.argv[1])
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>>>>>> IndexError: list index out of range
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>>>
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>>>>>> Is this where i would plug in the variables to make it work? I'm not quite sure about how you would plug in those numbers
>>
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>>>
>>
>>>>> okay so i kinda get it now, running it in cmd, i use the following command -
>>
>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>> python twitch.py 10 10. I am running it within the scripts directory.
>>
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>>>>> I get the following error in cmd:
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>>>>> Syntax Error: invalid syntax
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>>>>> python twitch.py 10 10
>>
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>>>>>     File "<stdin> line 1
>>
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>>>>
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>>>>>       python twitch.py 10 10
>>
>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>>> is there a more effecient way of doing this? I just hold shift and right click to run cmd from the folder,
>>
>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
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>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>>> File is located in C:\Python27\Scripts
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> It was my understanding that you need to meet the arguments by running the in cmd with the numbers after? I am sorry to show my true noobyness and really appreciate the help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a link to the actual file, maybe you can look at it and see if it looks good? Should i change anything else in the file to make it work theoretically or is it all done when you run it?
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m10s9rwvatxd96/twitch.py
>
> If i just try to double click the script, i get an index error, i can barely see the window it disappears so fast, but thats what I see.
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 16 10:19:42 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:19:42 -0500
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8n5m2$9s8$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/13 3:02 AM, Mark wrote:
>
> If i just try to double click the script, i get an index error, i can barely see the window it disappears so fast, but thats what I see.
>

If you're going to participate in this forum, you'll get better help 
from people if you use the medium well.

1) Sending 4 message in a row, within 15 minutes, each replying to the 
other, is not a good way to use a forum like this.  Get your thoughts in 
order and send one message.

2) While I am normally quite tolerant of the double-spacing Google 
Groups insists on, your messages are taking it to absurd extremes.  Take 
a look at your last message: 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/662678.html 
  True, it's kind of beautiful in an abstract way, and is an interesting 
demonstration of certain binary behaviors, but it is not a good way to 
participate here.

Of course, the messages you post are your choice, but you should 
consider the effect they have on the people you are hoping to get help from.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 15:25:57 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:25:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4218.1387207196.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4218.1387207196.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c375ef20-11c9-4688-9d38-5e6476af1fb4@googlegroups.com>

I am sorry if the way I posted messages was incorrect. Like I said, I am new to google groups and python quite a bit but i am trying to do things correctly by you guys. The errors that I am getting were not necessarily posting traceback messages.

In those messages I posted my last bit of confusion, how to properly run the program while meeting the arguments. Thanks Frank for giving me a little hint at that. 

Now in that directory in cmd, i type in python twitch.py 10 10. When i do this I get "thread error" posting infinitely down my stream. So it looks like the program is actually running now, just some im possibly missing? Once again I do have pip and livestreamer installed and the exact py file i have is located here:
http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m10s9rwvatxd96/twitch.py

Once again thanks for help,

Mark


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 20:05:39 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <c375ef20-11c9-4688-9d38-5e6476af1fb4@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4218.1387207196.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c375ef20-11c9-4688-9d38-5e6476af1fb4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <b5119969-b252-46aa-8649-9d2a0b70a254@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 1:55:57 AM UTC+5:30, Mark wrote:
> I am sorry if the way I posted messages was incorrect. Like I said, I am new to google groups and python quite a bit but i am trying to do things correctly by you guys. The errors that I am getting were not necessarily posting traceback messages.

Thats better -- thanks

You still need to go through
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

See the length of your "I am sorry..." line above


From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 06:05:31 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 03:05:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4248.1387245965.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4248.1387245965.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <05e4f76b-2bb9-45b4-80f8-0253aa72e697@googlegroups.com>

I am sorry, using google groups i cant tell what you see...
Anyways, I guess i will just make lots of lines instead of long sentences?

How about this, the first person that can get this to work for me...
I will paypal them 20 dollars for helping me.
I just want to get this thing up and going.
Ive posted where i am having trouble and got 2 replies talking about spacing...
and not fixing any issues or giving advice.

Either that or somebody who thinks they might be able to help, can you plz reply?

Thanks again

Mark


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:13:35 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:13:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <05e4f76b-2bb9-45b4-80f8-0253aa72e697@googlegroups.com>
References: <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <714fc5b8-6c85-4de3-8c0a-1a43d791f139@googlegroups.com>
 <34827ea0-7bec-41a8-baf9-587e2503fff8@googlegroups.com>
 <e4781412-f77a-49b0-8399-c870bd9388be@googlegroups.com>
 <179cce6f-06e5-4cfa-a746-be6ff006a058@googlegroups.com>
 <4c2822b4-d95c-4735-af12-55ac5ff2fa6e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4248.1387245965.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <05e4f76b-2bb9-45b4-80f8-0253aa72e697@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e6fb590b-8c6e-4257-9189-605c97b2c4f1@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 4:35:31 PM UTC+5:30, Mark wrote:
> I am sorry, using google groups i cant tell what you see...
> Anyways, I guess i will just make lots of lines instead of long sentences?

> How about this, the first person that can get this to work for me...
> I will paypal them 20 dollars for helping me.
> I just want to get this thing up and going.
> Ive posted where i am having trouble and got 2 replies talking about spacing...
> and not fixing any issues or giving advice.

> Either that or somebody who thinks they might be able to help, can you plz reply?

I believe you were given a suggestion by Steven on posting a traceback
Did you follow that?  (Genuine question!!)
Because if you did and it got lost in the characteristic 'GG-crap' you would
not know that it had been 'crapified' by GG and others would not know that
there was anything to read in the mess.

So... assuming youve understood the following:

1. Read and follow https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
2. Read and follow Steven's advice on how to ask help especially regarding errors
3. Try to minimize external links to code especially small snippets

maybe best to just start a new thread???


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:33:05 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:33:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bae4f006-c9dc-4482-b210-6fb68a984b47@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 1:09:38 AM UTC-6, Mark wrote:
> On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the
> > author has two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug
> > slipping in. I dunno.) Along the way, though, I learned
> > that the script in question is entirely for generating
> > fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your stream
> > highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to
> > help. Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just
> > trying to cheat your way to fame?
> > 
> Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already
> have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just
> wanted to see if i could get it to work.

That's like a serial spammer saying """I already have 2400
spam bots and half a million victims but i just want to get
my latest bot working for "academic" purposes only. *wink*"""

Listen Mark, it's obvious you don't have any coding or
debugging skills and all you want to do is employ this app
for your own fraudulent purposes, so with that in mind:

    NO SOUP FOR YOU!


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:40:41 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:40:41 -0500
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <bae4f006-c9dc-4482-b210-6fb68a984b47@googlegroups.com>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <bae4f006-c9dc-4482-b210-6fb68a984b47@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xVE84PajQm+EDm=CyyPwnFijcuey_rtJfSGKKuLLSX7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com
> wrote:

> On Monday, December 16, 2013 1:09:38 AM UTC-6, Mark wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 15, 2013 9:33:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > I went and looked at the post linked to, and it has
> > > buggy indentation. (Quite possibly indicates that the
> > > author has two-space tabs, and didn't notice a bug
> > > slipping in. I dunno.) Along the way, though, I learned
> > > that the script in question is entirely for generating
> > > fake twitch.tv viewers so as to get your stream
> > > highlighted fraudulently, so I'm rather less inclined to
> > > help. Got a legitimate use for this, or are you just
> > > trying to cheat your way to fame?
> > >
> > Thanks for the reply, the answer is yes and no, i already
> > have about 2400 followers and half mil views, i just
> > wanted to see if i could get it to work.
>
> That's like a serial spammer saying """I already have 2400
> spam bots and half a million victims but i just want to get
> my latest bot working for "academic" purposes only. *wink*"""
>
> Listen Mark, it's obvious you don't have any coding or
> debugging skills and all you want to do is employ this app
> for your own fraudulent purposes, so with that in mind:
>
>     NO SOUP FOR YOU!
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

I'm kinda with Rick on this thread.  A guy walks along with a name like
markshizzle, offers $20 to make his 'thing' work, and proudly admits he
doesn't want to know how the program works, he just wants it to work.  I
don't think this is the right place for you markshizzle.  This is a place
for people who are interested in improving their python skills, and asking
question after they have done there best to learn on their own first.
$20?  .. as they used to say on "are you being served':   go boil your head

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From markyshizzle at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 17:46:59 2013
From: markyshizzle at gmail.com (Mark)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:46:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: New to Python, Help to get script working?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4299.1387302044.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <61009939-dc9b-4ffe-84c0-a695b96d9a2d@googlegroups.com>
 <5769f8c3-f09c-458a-92b6-c727bfe95656@googlegroups.com>
 <bd321ee0-3966-4eb6-8fff-3b32e6848a86@googlegroups.com>
 <52ae596b$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4163.1387161201.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fe57dbb8-f8be-4787-a6d6-e7c723b47670@googlegroups.com>
 <bae4f006-c9dc-4482-b210-6fb68a984b47@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4299.1387302044.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <66694f3b-f676-4687-9d42-a6117b35e6cd@googlegroups.com>

Actually i live stream nearly everyday for 2 years, 
the problem with twitch is that the more "popular" people get first dibs
and get treated better, have better perks, and all of that...
Its all based on your initial viewer count, 90% of viewers just click
the top video. 
All my views and numbers are based on me streaming for over 2 years.

Anyways, I wasnt trying to cause trouble, 
i did post what happened when i ran the program. 
There was no traceback error,
Here is my post from 2 days ago:

Now in that directory in cmd, i type in python twitch.py 10 10. 
When i do this I get "thread error" posting infinitely down my cmd prompt. 
So it looks like the program is actually running now, just some im possibly missing? 
Once again I do have pip and livestreamer installed and the exact py file i have is located here:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/3m10s9rwvatxd96/twitch.py

Yes i do want it to work, and i would offer money to somebody who would
actually help me, if it helped me to make it work faster. 
Is there not one person that can help a guy out?

Mark


From phd at phdru.name  Sun Dec 15 10:42:53 2013
From: phd at phdru.name (Oleg Broytman)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:42:53 +0100
Subject: SQLObject 1.5.1
Message-ID: <20131215154253.GC10283@phdru.name>

Hello!

I'm pleased to announce version 1.5.1, the first bugfix release of branch
1.5 of SQLObject.


What's new in SQLObject
=======================

* SQLiteConnection.close() now closes and reopens a connection
  to in-memory database.

Contributor for this release is Maciej (Matchek) Blizinski.

For a more complete list, please see the news:
http://sqlobject.org/News.html


What is SQLObject
=================

SQLObject is an object-relational mapper.  Your database tables are described
as classes, and rows are instances of those classes.  SQLObject is meant to be
easy to use and quick to get started with.

SQLObject supports a number of backends: MySQL, PostgreSQL, SQLite,
Firebird, Sybase, MSSQL and MaxDB (also known as SAPDB).


Where is SQLObject
==================

Site:
http://sqlobject.org

Development:
http://sqlobject.org/devel/

Mailing list:
https://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/sqlobject-discuss

Archives:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.sqlobject

Download:
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SQLObject/1.5.1

News and changes:
http://sqlobject.org/News.html

Oleg.
-- 
     Oleg Broytman            http://phdru.name/            phd at phdru.name
           Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Dec 15 20:51:21 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:51:21 +1100
Subject: Type of an object: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98obj=2E=5F=5Fclass=5F=5F?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= versus =?utf-8?B?4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
Message-ID: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Howdy all,

What is the Pythonic way to determine the type of an object? Are there
multiple valid ways, and when should each be used?

We have ?obj.__class__?, an attribute bound to the object's class. Or is
it? When is that true, and when should we not rely on it?

We have ?type(obj)?, calling the constructor for the ?type? type in
order to get a reference to the type of ?obj?. Or is it? When is that
true, and when should we not rely on it?

Are there other ways to get at the type of a Python object? What reasons
are there to choose or avoid them?

-- 
 \         ?Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?? ?I think so, |
  `\    Brain, but Zero Mostel times anything will still give you Zero |
_o__)                                  Mostel.? ?_Pinky and The Brain_ |
Ben Finney



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sun Dec 15 21:50:23 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:50:23 -0500
Subject: Type of an object: =?UTF-8?B?4oCYb2JqLl9fY2xhc3NfX+KAmSB2ZXJz?=
 =?UTF-8?B?dXMg4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <l8lpp4$ito$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/15/13 8:51 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
> Howdy all,
>
> What is the Pythonic way to determine the type of an object? Are there
> multiple valid ways, and when should each be used?
>
> We have ?obj.__class__?, an attribute bound to the object's class. Or is
> it? When is that true, and when should we not rely on it?
>
> We have ?type(obj)?, calling the constructor for the ?type? type in
> order to get a reference to the type of ?obj?. Or is it? When is that
> true, and when should we not rely on it?
>
> Are there other ways to get at the type of a Python object? What reasons
> are there to choose or avoid them?
>

Generally, my answer would be, "You probably don't need the type as much 
as you think you do."   But when you do need it, type(x) is better than 
x.__class__, simply because we should always favor builtin functions 
over direct access of dunder-names where possible.

Also, don't overlook isinstance().

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Dec 15 23:50:17 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:50:17 +1100
Subject: Type of an object: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98obj=2E=5F=5Fclass=5F=5F?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= versus =?utf-8?B?4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
References: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <l8lpp4$ito$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> writes:

> Generally, my answer would be, "You probably don't need the type as
> much as you think you do."  
> [?]
> Also, don't overlook isinstance().

Agreed.

> But when you do need it, type(x) is better than x.__class__, simply
> because we should always favor builtin functions over direct access of
> dunder-names where possible.

Thanks.

Should we expect (ignoring pathological cases) the assertion
?type(obj) is obj.__class__? to hold true? If not, under what
circumstances would it be sensible for those to differ?

-- 
 \       ?For fast acting relief, try slowing down.? ?Jane Wagner, via |
  `\                                                       Lily Tomlin |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 00:09:15 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:09:15 +1100
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFR5cGUgb2YgYW4gb2JqZWN0OiDigJhvYmouX19jbGFzc19f4oCZIHZlcnN1cyA=?=
 =?UTF-8?B?4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <l8lpp4$ito$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrN-rzau9VzOe5PXpGCmkUpN=dsjmACNsF490g=Q7FN=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Should we expect (ignoring pathological cases) the assertion
> ?type(obj) is obj.__class__? to hold true? If not, under what
> circumstances would it be sensible for those to differ?

By "pathological cases", do you mean arbitrarily changing
obj.__class__, or is there some other way for them to differ?

ChrisA


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Dec 16 02:09:20 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:09:20 +1100
Subject: Type of an object: =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98obj=2E=5F=5Fclass=5F=5F?=
 =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= versus =?utf-8?B?4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
References: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <l8lpp4$ito$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
 <CAPTjJmrN-rzau9VzOe5PXpGCmkUpN=dsjmACNsF490g=Q7FN=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w1u1djmqn.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> > Should we expect (ignoring pathological cases) the assertion
> > ?type(obj) is obj.__class__? to hold true? If not, under what
> > circumstances would it be sensible for those to differ?
>
> By "pathological cases", do you mean arbitrarily changing
> obj.__class__

By ?pathological cases? I mean to acknowledge that, in Python, of course
any attribute or function can be changed merely to thwart some rule
about how those attributes and functions will generally behave ? and to
exclude such cases from the question where there is no purpose to the
case other than the thwarting of the general rule.

-- 
 \         ?I still have my Christmas Tree. I looked at it today. Sure |
  `\               enough, I couldn't see any forests.? ?Steven Wright |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 00:56:26 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:56:26 -0800
Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFR5cGUgb2YgYW4gb2JqZWN0OiDigJhvYmouX19jbGFzc19f4oCZIHZlcnN1cyA=?=
 =?UTF-8?B?4oCYdHlwZShvYmop4oCZ?=
In-Reply-To: <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
References: <7wk3f5k1gm.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <l8lpp4$ito$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <7wfvptjt6e.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
Message-ID: <CABicbJJXPKKSRihqamkKGkOXz7Hv+2+e6JrZymG5V-M3eDPKGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 8:50 PM, Ben Finney <ben+python at benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Should we expect (ignoring pathological cases) the assertion
> ?type(obj) is obj.__class__? to hold true? If not, under what
> circumstances would it be sensible for those to differ?

They differ on old-style classes (in 2.x): the type will be either
classobj or instance; and the __class__ doesn't exist (for class
objects) or is what you'd expect (for instances).

This isn't particularly pathological, so I disagree with the
suggestion that one should always definitely use type() for style
reasons.

-- Devin


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 16 17:17:34 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 16 Dec 2013 22:17:34 GMT
Subject: Type of an object:
 =?iso-8859-7?q?=A1obj=2E=5F=5Fclass=5F=5F=A2?= versus
 =?iso-8859-7?b?oXR5cGUob2JqKaI=?=
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:51:21 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> Howdy all,
> 
> What is the Pythonic way to determine the type of an object? Are there
> multiple valid ways, and when should each be used?

That is an excellent question, I only wish I had an excellent answer to 
give you. Obviously great minds think alike because I was going to ask 
the same question, prompted by this comment from Nick Coghlan on the 
python-dev list:

"...type(obj).__name__ (working with the concrete type, ignoring any
proxying) or obj.__class__.__name__ (which takes proxying into 
account)..."

So there is a difference between them, but I'm not entirely sure what it 
is.


> We have ?obj.__class__?, an attribute bound to the object's class. Or is
> it? When is that true, and when should we not rely on it?

I think you can rely on it. I don't believe you can delete the __class__ 
attribute from an instance:

py> class X(object):
...     pass
...
py> x = X()
py> x.__class__
<class '__main__.X'>
py> del x.__class__
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: can't delete __class__ attribute


I think it is fair to consider __class__ to be part of the "object API" 
shared by all objects. I suppose it's possible to create a metaclass 
which does not expose a __class__ attribute, but I would consider that 
broken by design.

Furthermore, you can dynamically set the __class__ of an instance in 
order to dynamically change its type and therefore behaviour (although 
there are restrictions on what you can change it to, and from). Using the 
same x instance as above:

py> class Y(object):
...     pass
...
py> x.__class__ = Y
py> type(x)
<class '__main__.Y'>


This is by design, and it allows a very useful form of dynamic behaviour:

http://code.activestate.com/recipes/68429-ring-buffer/


 
> We have ?type(obj)?, calling the constructor for the ?type? type in
> order to get a reference to the type of ?obj?. Or is it? When is that
> true, and when should we not rely on it?

Are there circumstances where type(obj) and obj.__class__ return 
something different? Based on Nick's comment above, I would have to guess 
the answer must be yes, but I don't know what those circumstances are.


Aside: I'm not sure that it is useful to think of type as the constructor 
in the one-argument form. If you recall, prior to Python 2.2 `type` was a 
regular function which took one argument and returned the argument's type:

[steve at ando ~]$ python1.5
Python 1.5.2 (#1, Aug 27 2012, 09:09:18)  [GCC 4.1.2 20080704 (Red Hat 
4.1.2-52)] on linux2
Copyright 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam
>>> type
<built-in function type>


The types returned were very different from the types we know and love 
since the class/type unification of version 2.2:

>>> type(42)
<type 'int'>
>>> int
<built-in function int>
>>> type(42)('2')
Traceback (innermost last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in ?
TypeError: call of non-function (type type)


So while it is *technically* correct that type(...) calls the type 
constructor, the one-argument form type(obj) is intended to behave as a 
function, while the three-argument form type(name, bases, namespace) is 
intended to behave as a constructor of types. But I digress.


> Are there other ways to get at the type of a Python object? What reasons
> are there to choose or avoid them?


I am not aware of any other ways.



-- 
Steven


From dieter at handshake.de  Tue Dec 17 02:14:09 2013
From: dieter at handshake.de (dieter)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:14:09 +0100
Subject: Type of an object: =?iso-8859-7?B?oW9iai5fX2NsYXNzX1+i?= versus
 =?iso-8859-7?B?oXR5cGUob2JqKaI=?=
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <87wqj4lzjy.fsf@handshake.de>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:

> On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:51:21 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> ... "type(obj)" versus "obj.__class__"
> That is an excellent question, I only wish I had an excellent answer to 
> give you. Obviously great minds think alike because I was going to ask 
> the same question, prompted by this comment from Nick Coghlan on the 
> python-dev list:
>
> "...type(obj).__name__ (working with the concrete type, ignoring any
> proxying) or obj.__class__.__name__ (which takes proxying into 
> account)..."
>
> So there is a difference between them, but I'm not entirely sure what it 
> is.

I understand the difference: sometimes you work with proxies
(e.g. "weakref" proxies). A proxie should work mostly like the proxied
object - but in rare cases, you want to detect that what you have
is actually a proxie rather than the real object.
You can use "type(obj)" to check the real type ob "obj" (in some
sense, it is more direct - more reliable; giving you the real
type of "obj"). "obj.__class__" on the other hand uses standard
attribute access - and proxying may have customized attribute access
to access the proxied object's attributes rather than its own: then
"obj.__class__" would give you not the type of "obj" (the proxie)
but that of the proxied object.



From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 02:42:35 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 07:42:35 GMT
Subject: Type of an object:
 =?iso-8859-7?q?=A1obj=2E=5F=5Fclass=5F=5F=A2?= versus
 =?iso-8859-7?b?oXR5cGUob2JqKaI=?=
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:14:09 +0100, dieter wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> writes:
> 
>> On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:51:21 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: ... "type(obj)"
>> versus "obj.__class__" That is an excellent question, I only wish I had
>> an excellent answer to give you. Obviously great minds think alike
>> because I was going to ask the same question, prompted by this comment
>> from Nick Coghlan on the python-dev list:
>>
>> "...type(obj).__name__ (working with the concrete type, ignoring any
>> proxying) or obj.__class__.__name__ (which takes proxying into
>> account)..."
>>
>> So there is a difference between them, but I'm not entirely sure what
>> it is.
> 
> I understand the difference: sometimes you work with proxies (e.g.
> "weakref" proxies). A proxie should work mostly like the proxied object
> - but in rare cases, you want to detect that what you have is actually a
> proxie rather than the real object. You can use "type(obj)" to check the
> real type ob "obj" (in some sense, it is more direct - more reliable;
> giving you the real type of "obj"). "obj.__class__" on the other hand
> uses standard attribute access - and proxying may have customized
> attribute access to access the proxied object's attributes rather than
> its own: then "obj.__class__" would give you not the type of "obj" (the
> proxie) but that of the proxied object.


I think I need to see an actual working demonstration, because as far as 
I can see, type(obj) returns obj.__class__.

I'm not suggesting you are wrong, only that code speaks more loudly than 
words :-)


-- 
Steven


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Dec 17 05:35:10 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:35:10 +1300
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I think I need to see an actual working demonstration, because as far as 
> I can see, type(obj) returns obj.__class__.

Nope:

 >>> class C(object):
...  def f(self):
...   return "Surprise!"
...  __class__ = property(f)
...
 >>> c = C()
 >>> type(c)
<class '__main__.C'>
 >>> c.__class__
'Surprise!'

It appears that type() bypasses the attribute access
mechanism and goes straight for the actual type.

-- 
Greg


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 17 09:50:29 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 06:50:29 -0800
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52B064B5.3030406@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/17/2013 02:35 AM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> I think I need to see an actual working demonstration, because as far as I can see, type(obj) returns obj.__class__.
>
> Nope:
>
>>>> class C(object):
> ...  def f(self):
> ...   return "Surprise!"
> ...  __class__ = property(f)
> ...
>>>> c = C()
>>>> type(c)
> <class '__main__.C'>
>>>> c.__class__
> 'Surprise!'

I believe the proxying info comes into play with __class__.__name__:

--> class Test:
...   pass
...

--> t = Test()

--> type(t)
<class '__main__.Test'>

--> t.__class__
<class '__main__.Test'>

--> t.__class__.__name__
'Test'

--> t.__class__.__name__ = 'some_proxy'

--> t.__class__.__name__
'some_proxy'

--
~Ethan~


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 10:08:51 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 15:08:51 GMT
Subject: Type of an object:
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:35:10 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> I think I need to see an actual working demonstration, because as far
>> as I can see, type(obj) returns obj.__class__.
> 
> Nope:
> 
>  >>> class C(object):
> ...  def f(self):
> ...   return "Surprise!"
> ...  __class__ = property(f)
> ...
>  >>> c = C()
>  >>> type(c)
> <class '__main__.C'>
>  >>> c.__class__
> 'Surprise!'


Well, that is a surprise, but I don't think that is intended behaviour. I 
think that's something which only works by accident. The intention is 
that __class__ returns the instance's type, not arbitrary values. If you 
try to set it to a non-class on the instance, it fails:


py> class D(object):
...     pass
...
py> d = D()
py> d.__class__ = property(lambda self: 'Surprise!')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: __class__ must be set to a class, not 'property' object


Same when you try to set it on the class object itself:

py> D.__class__ = property(lambda self: 'Surprise!')
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: __class__ must be set to a class, not 'property' object


So my guess is that the fact that your code works at all is an accident.

I can demonstrate that changing the __class__ of an instance causes 
type(obj) to return a different value, and also to dynamically change the 
behaviour of the object:


py> class Spam(object):
...     def method(self):
...             return "spam"
...
py> class Ham(object):
...     def method(self):
...             return "ham"
...
py> ham = Ham()
py> ham.method()
'ham'
py> ham.__class__ = Spam
py> ham.method()
'spam'
py> type(ham)
<class '__main__.Spam'>


So this is a case where type(obj) returns obj.__class__ rather than it's 
internal type field. That's the point I was trying to make: type(obj) may 
return obj's internal type field, but if you set obj.__class__, type(obj) 
will then return the new class, not the internal one.


-- 
Steven


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Dec 17 17:15:03 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:15:03 +1300
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <bhc0n9Fan00U1@mid.individual.net>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Well, that is a surprise, but I don't think that is intended behaviour. I 
> think that's something which only works by accident. The intention is 
> that __class__ returns the instance's type, not arbitrary values.

Well, a proxy object would obviously return a suitable
class-like object. I was just demonstrating that it's
possible to override what __class__ returns.

I don't think it's an accident, because the weakref
module uses this for its proxy objects.

 >>> import weakref
 >>> class C(object):
...  pass
...
 >>> c = C()
 >>> p = weakref.proxy(c)
 >>> p.__class__
<class '__main__.C'>
 >>> type(p)
<type 'weakproxy'>

> If you 
> try to set it to a non-class on the instance, it fails:

For proxying purposes you don't need to be able to set
it, but I don't see why you couldn't use a property
setter to override that behaviour as well if you really
wanted to.

-- 
Greg


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 17 18:51:08 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 23:51:08 GMT
Subject: Type of an object:
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhc0n9Fan00U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:15:03 +1300, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Well, that is a surprise, but I don't think that is intended behaviour.
>> I think that's something which only works by accident. The intention is
>> that __class__ returns the instance's type, not arbitrary values.
> 
> Well, a proxy object would obviously return a suitable class-like
> object. I was just demonstrating that it's possible to override what
> __class__ returns.

You can certainly do it with a __getattribute__ method:

py> class K(object):
...     def __getattribute__(self, name):
...             if name == '__class__': return 42
...             return super().__getattribute__(name)
...
py> k = K()
py> k.__class__
42

but I think that counts as "shoot yourself in the foot" category.


> I don't think it's an accident, because the weakref module uses this for
> its proxy objects.

Just a minute, we seem to be talking about completely different things 
here. You demonstrated setting __class__ to a non-class object inside a 
class statement, emphasis on the *non-class* part. Here's a simpler 
version showing the same thing:

py> class Q(object):
...     __class__ = 42
...
py> q = Q()
py> q.__class__
42
py> type(q)
<class '__main__.Q'>


Here's an equivalent way:

py> Q = type("Q", (object,), {'__class__': 23})
py> Q().__class__
23

It's the *non-class* part I reckon is an accident, or a bug. Telling me 
that weakproxy sets __class__ to a *class* doesn't argue for or against 
me.

Ignoring virtual __getattribute__ attributes, I cannot see any other way 
to set the __class__ of an object to be a non-class. (I suppose you can 
do anything you like with a metaclass, but that falls firmly into 
"consenting adults" territory.) Unless you "break" access to the 
__class__ descriptor first, as in the Q class above, there doesn't seem 
to be any way to set it to a non-class or an incompatible class. You 
can't set it on the class:

py> class C(object):
...     pass
...
py> C.__class__ = 23
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: __class__ must be set to a class, not 'int' object
py> C.__dict__['__class__'] = 23
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: 'mappingproxy' object does not support item assignment


nor can you set it on the instance:

py> c = C()
py> c.__class__ = 23
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: __class__ must be set to a class, not 'int' object


You can set it on the instance dict directly, but it doesn't do you any 
good because the descriptor overrides it:

py> c.__dict__['__class__'] = 23
py> c.__class__
<class '__main__.C'>


Somebody has gone to a *lot* of trouble to ensure that __class__ always 
returns an actual class, and I'm not sure the Q example above is a 
deliberate hole in that.


Your weakref example is not a counter-example:

>  >>> import weakref
>  >>> class C(object):
> ...  pass
> ...
>  >>> c = C()
>  >>> p = weakref.proxy(c)
>  >>> p.__class__
> <class '__main__.C'>
>  >>> type(p)
> <type 'weakproxy'>


since both weakproxy and C are classes. This is a good example though of 
when type(obj) and obj.__class__ can legitimately differ.

This leads to another question: we've now seen two examples where 
(presumably) the internal type field and __class__ differ. In the 
weakproxy case, type(obj) returns the internal type field. In the 
"regular" case, where you set obj.__class__ to a class, type(obj) returns 
the new (external) type. How the hell does it decide which one to return?



-- 
Steven


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 17 20:10:49 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:10:49 -0800
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhc0n9Fan00U1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52B0F619.6050301@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/17/2013 03:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> This leads to another question: we've now seen two examples where
> (presumably) the internal type field and __class__ differ. In the
> weakproxy case, type(obj) returns the internal type field. In the
> "regular" case, where you set obj.__class__ to a class, type(obj) returns
> the new (external) type. How the hell does it decide which one to return?

However it does it, it does it in C.  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Dec 18 06:39:23 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:39:23 +1300
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>	<52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>	<52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>	<bhc0n9Fan00U1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <bhdfrdFjo0gU1@mid.individual.net>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> It's the *non-class* part I reckon is an accident, or a bug. Telling me 
> that weakproxy sets __class__ to a *class* doesn't argue for or against 
> me.

I wouldn't describe what weakref.proxy is doing as
*setting* __class__ to anything. Rather, it's arranging
things so that when you *get* x.__class__, it returns
something other than type(x). And I expect it's achieving
that effect by exploiting one of the general mechanisms
available for overriding attribute access.

You seem to think it's an "accident" that there is
no protection in place to prevent __class__ access from
being overridden in such a way that it returns something
other than a class.

I suppose you could say that this "works by accident", but
I would say that it simply works. There may not be any
obvious practical *use* for it, but it's not worth
anyone's time to go out of their way to prevent it.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Wed Dec 18 06:45:02 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 00:45:02 +1300
Subject: Type of an object:
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4316.1387330505.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4162.1387158693.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52af7bfe$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4265.1387264469.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b0006a$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhann0F1rrsU1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b06902$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <bhc0n9Fan00U1@mid.individual.net>
 <52b0e36b$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4316.1387330505.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhdg62Fjrb3U1@mid.individual.net>

Ethan Furman wrote:
>> This leads to another question: we've now seen two examples where
>> (presumably) the internal type field and __class__ differ. In the
>> weakproxy case, type(obj) returns the internal type field. In the
>> "regular" case, where you set obj.__class__ to a class, type(obj) returns
>> the new (external) type. How the hell does it decide which one to return?

When you set the __class__ of a regular object and it
succeeds, it actually changes the internal type, i.e.
obj->ob_type at the C level.

This is only allowed under certain conditions. Mostly
only for user-defined classes, and only if the layouts
of the old and new instance structs are compatible.

-- 
Greg


From liuerfire at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 22:30:13 2013
From: liuerfire at gmail.com (liuerfire Wang)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:30:13 +0800
Subject: a question about list as an element in a tuple
Message-ID: <CAFysF+SirN1VKMhCcuWjLXkK--+V2Bxs4AbntJgTjcMDMhrWuA@mail.gmail.com>

Just like below:

In [1]: a = ([], [])

In [2]: a[0].append(1)

In [3]: a
Out[3]: ([1], [])

In [4]: a[0] += [1]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TypeError                                 Traceback (most recent call last)
<ipython-input-4-ea29ca190a4d> in <module>()
----> 1 a[0] += [1]

TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment

In [5]: a
Out[5]: ([1, 1], [])

no problem, there is an exception. But a is still changed.

is this a bug, or could anyone explain it?

thanks.


-- 
Best regards.
/**********************************
google+: +liuerfire <http://gplus.to/onepiece> twitter:
@liuerfire<https://twitter.com/#!/liuerfire>
??????????????~^_^~ <http://db.tt/YGEdRM0>
***********************************/
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 22:57:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:57:11 +1100
Subject: a question about list as an element in a tuple
In-Reply-To: <CAFysF+SirN1VKMhCcuWjLXkK--+V2Bxs4AbntJgTjcMDMhrWuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFysF+SirN1VKMhCcuWjLXkK--+V2Bxs4AbntJgTjcMDMhrWuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpvAtNR1fBY6shhfGy74trZ3nCKXpS6+P7kzEDWPrBbwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:30 PM, liuerfire Wang <liuerfire at gmail.com> wrote:
> TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment
>
> In [5]: a
> Out[5]: ([1, 1], [])
>
> no problem, there is an exception. But a is still changed.
>
> is this a bug, or could anyone explain it?

It's not a bug, but it's a bit confusing. Here's what happens. The
augmented assignment operator += triggers an in-place addition (where
possible; for lists, it's possible), so the original list will be
changed:

>>> a = [1]
>>> b = a
>>> a += [2]
>>> b
[1, 2]

Whereas using separate assignment and addition creates a new list:

>>> a = a + [3]
>>> a
[1, 2, 3]
>>> b
[1, 2]

To handle both mutable types (like list) and immutable ones (like
str), the augmented assignment operators have to be able to choose
whether or not they change their object:

>>> a = "1"
>>> b = a
>>> a += "2"
>>> b
'1'
>>> a
'12'

So what happens under the hood is, more or less:

a += [2]
# ... is equivalent to ...
a = a.__iadd__([2])

Which can be explored interactively:

>>> a = [1]
>>> a.__iadd__([2])
[1, 2]
>>> a
[1, 2]

The __iadd__ function ("in-place add") returns the new result, and in
the case of the list, that's done by changing the list. The assignment
is then done, which does nothing here, but with strings, is the
critical part of the job. So far, so good.

Now, when that result gets assigned to the tuple, we have a problem.
Tuples are immutable - can't change length (no appending), and can't
assign to elements. So when the final step happens, an exception is
thrown. At that point, the tuple is complaining "Hey, you can't assign
to me!", but the list has already done the appending, and it's too
late to undo that. So the list has changed, and when you go look at
it, you see the change (since the list is the same whether you find it
from the tuple or somewhere else), which creates the confusing
situation of throwing an exception after doing exactly what you
wanted.

Python exceptions aren't like SQL errors, causing a rollback of the
whole transaction. Or, more generally, Python expressions and
statements aren't transactional. So it's entirely possible, if a
little confusing, for part of a job to happen. Let's take another
example that has side effects:

tup = (1,2,3)
tup[2] = input("Enter something: ")   # use raw_input() in Python 2

Tuple assignment can't work... but it's fairly clear that this
_should_ still show the prompt and wait for the user to type
something, and only throw the exception later on. It's not as obvious
in the augmented assignment example, but both are actually doing the
same thing.

Hope that helps!

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:12:25 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:12:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: a question about list as an element in a tuple
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4170.1387166234.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAFysF+SirN1VKMhCcuWjLXkK--+V2Bxs4AbntJgTjcMDMhrWuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4170.1387166234.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4afb9082-1c0d-43e7-b1b1-5dd8e78725df@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 9:27:11 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:30 PM, liuerfire Wang  wrote:
> > TypeError: 'tuple' object does not support item assignment
> > In [5]: a
> > Out[5]: ([1, 1], [])
> > no problem, there is an exception. But a is still changed.
> > is this a bug, or could anyone explain it?

> It's not a bug, but it's a bit confusing. Here's what happens. The
> augmented assignment operator += triggers an in-place addition (where
> possible; for lists, it's possible), so the original list will be
> changed:

> >>> a = [1]
> >>> b = a
> >>> a += [2]
> >>> b
> [1, 2]

> Whereas using separate assignment and addition creates a new list:

> >>> a = a + [3]
> >>> a
> [1, 2, 3]
> >>> b
> [1, 2]

> To handle both mutable types (like list) and immutable ones (like
> str), the augmented assignment operators have to be able to choose
> whether or not they change their object:

> >>> a = "1"
> >>> b = a
> >>> a += "2"
> >>> b
> '1'
> >>> a
> '12'

> So what happens under the hood is, more or less:

> a += [2]
> # ... is equivalent to ...
> a = a.__iadd__([2])

> Which can be explored interactively:

> >>> a = [1]
> >>> a.__iadd__([2])
> [1, 2]
> >>> a
> [1, 2]

> The __iadd__ function ("in-place add") returns the new result, and in
> the case of the list, that's done by changing the list. The assignment
> is then done, which does nothing here, but with strings, is the
> critical part of the job. So far, so good.

> Now, when that result gets assigned to the tuple, we have a problem.
> Tuples are immutable - can't change length (no appending), and can't
> assign to elements. So when the final step happens, an exception is
> thrown. At that point, the tuple is complaining "Hey, you can't assign
> to me!", but the list has already done the appending, and it's too
> late to undo that. So the list has changed, and when you go look at
> it, you see the change (since the list is the same whether you find it
> from the tuple or somewhere else), which creates the confusing
> situation of throwing an exception after doing exactly what you
> wanted.

> Python exceptions aren't like SQL errors, causing a rollback of the
> whole transaction. Or, more generally, Python expressions and
> statements aren't transactional. So it's entirely possible, if a
> little confusing, for part of a job to happen. Let's take another
> example that has side effects:

> tup = (1,2,3)
> tup[2] = input("Enter something: ")   # use raw_input() in Python 2

> Tuple assignment can't work... but it's fairly clear that this
> _should_ still show the prompt and wait for the user to type
> something, and only throw the exception later on. It's not as obvious
> in the augmented assignment example, but both are actually doing the
> same thing.

> Hope that helps!

Heh!
Nice question... even nicer explanation!!

I thought I knew that imperative programming is a bad idea:
http://blog.languager.org/2012/11/imperative-programming-lessons-not.html

Never cease to be surprised how bad an idea it is!


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 15 23:29:55 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:29:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Want guidance to set proxy  please help
Message-ID: <ea46773f-5608-492b-94d4-cd11ff8b4228@googlegroups.com>

hey i am working on parsing like  project . 

so , i need some step to  set proxy 
so that my ip is not blocked by them 

+=============================
i am using this method 


proxy_support = urllib2.ProxyHandler({"http":"http://61.147.82.87:8000"})
opener = urllib2.build_opener(proxy_support)
urllib2.install_opener(opener)


is it ok ? if yes 
how can i verify that my  i have set proxy 
if no, please give some guidance
also if some modification need please help 



From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 04:57:43 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:57:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Want guidance to set proxy  please help
References: <ea46773f-5608-492b-94d4-cd11ff8b4228@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8miqn$tjl$1@dont-email.me>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:29:55 -0800, Jai wrote:

> so , i need some step to  set proxy so that my ip is not blocked by them

This sounds like you're attempting to access a site other than for 
legitimate purposes. You probably want some 1337 script kiddies forum, 
not a serious programming newsgroup.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From shengjie.shengjie at live.com  Sun Dec 15 23:38:14 2013
From: shengjie.shengjie at live.com (shengjie.shengjie at live.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:38:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
Message-ID: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>

Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my values to be wrapped around it.
For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
[0,1,2,3]
[4,1,2,3]
[5,4,1,2]

Thanks in advance and much help appreciated.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Sun Dec 15 23:59:32 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:59:32 +1100
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7wbo0hjsqz.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

shengjie.shengjie at live.com writes:

> Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my
> values to be wrapped around it.

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I assume you have a purpose
in mind for this. What is the purpose? Perhaps it will help the
explanation if we know what it's for.

> For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

Does this mean the input is a list, ?[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]?? Or
do you mean something else? What is the input?

> I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number
> exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.

> [0,1,2,3]
> [4,1,2,3]
> [5,4,1,2]

That's three different lists. What is the input in each case? Under what
circumstances would you expect each one to be produced?

-- 
 \     ?As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of |
  `\                                       the demand.? ?Josh Billings |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From shengjie.shengjie at live.com  Mon Dec 16 00:07:46 2013
From: shengjie.shengjie at live.com (shengjie.shengjie at live.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:07:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4177.1387169987.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4177.1387169987.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1f1073b7-a171-4470-aa4e-76d119a4c395@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 16 December 2013 12:59:32 UTC+8, Ben Finney  wrote:
> shengjie.shengjie at live.com writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my
> 
> > values to be wrapped around it.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I assume you have a purpose
> 
> in mind for this. What is the purpose? Perhaps it will help the
> 
> explanation if we know what it's for.
> 
> 
> 
> > For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> 
> 
> 
> Does this mean the input is a list, ?[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]?? Or
> 
> do you mean something else? What is the input?
> 
> 
> 
> > I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number
> 
> > exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> 
> 
> 
> > [0,1,2,3]
> 
> > [4,1,2,3]
> 
> > [5,4,1,2]
> 
> 
> 
> That's three different lists. What is the input in each case? Under what
> 
> circumstances would you expect each one to be produced?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
>  \     ?As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of |
> 
>   `\                                       the demand.? ?Josh Billings |
> 
> _o__)                                                                  |
> 
> Ben Finney

Im currently creating a logging function for my GUI in pyqt.
I saved its feedback data values in a .txt file and I access these values by placing them in a list. However, this list gets really big and I am trying to find a work around.


From shengjie.shengjie at live.com  Mon Dec 16 00:10:15 2013
From: shengjie.shengjie at live.com (shengjie.shengjie at live.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:10:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <1f1073b7-a171-4470-aa4e-76d119a4c395@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4177.1387169987.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <1f1073b7-a171-4470-aa4e-76d119a4c395@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5a27e644-5a6f-4ff3-ad70-6317c143fb8e@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 16 December 2013 13:07:46 UTC+8, shengjie... at live.com  wrote:
> On Monday, 16 December 2013 12:59:32 UTC+8, Ben Finney  wrote:
> 
> > shengjie.shengjie at live.com writes:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my
> 
> > 
> 
> > > values to be wrapped around it.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I assume you have a purpose
> 
> > 
> 
> > in mind for this. What is the purpose? Perhaps it will help the
> 
> > 
> 
> > explanation if we know what it's for.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Does this mean the input is a list, ?[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]?? Or
> 
> > 
> 
> > do you mean something else? What is the input?
> 
> > > The input is from [0 to 9] however I want a display which displays [0-3] and when the value reaches 3, it replaces the 4th value with the first value and so on.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number
> 
> > 
> 
> > > exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > [0,1,2,3]
> 
> > 
> 
> > > [4,1,2,3]
> 
> > 
> 
> > > [5,4,1,2]
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > That's three different lists. What is the input in each case? Under what
> 
> > 
> 
> > circumstances would you expect each one to be produced?
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > -- 
> 
> > 
> 
> >  \     ?As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of |
> 
> > 
> 
> >   `\                                       the demand.? ?Josh Billings |
> 
> > 
> 
> > _o__)                                                                  |
> 
> > 
> 
> > Ben Finney
> 
> 
> 
> Im currently creating a logging function for my GUI in pyqt.
> 
> I saved its feedback data values in a .txt file and I access these values by placing them in a list. However, this list gets really big and I am trying to find a work around.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 04:33:49 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:33:49 +0000
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <5a27e644-5a6f-4ff3-ad70-6317c143fb8e@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4177.1387169987.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <1f1073b7-a171-4470-aa4e-76d119a4c395@googlegroups.com>
 <5a27e644-5a6f-4ff3-ad70-6317c143fb8e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8mhdi$kht$2@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 05:10, shengjie.shengjie at live.com wrote:
> On Monday, 16 December 2013 13:07:46 UTC+8, shengjie... at live.com  wrote:

Would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing 
double line spacing, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 05:12:22 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:12:22 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4177.1387169987.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8mjm6$tjl$2@dont-email.me>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:59:32 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:

> shengjie.shengjie at live.com writes:
> 
>> Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my values
>> to be wrapped around it.
> 
> This doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I assume you have a purpose
> in mind for this. What is the purpose? Perhaps it will help the
> explanation if we know what it's for.
> 
>> For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> 
> Does this mean the input is a list, ?[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]?? Or
> do you mean something else? What is the input?
> 
>> I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number
>> exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> 
>> [0,1,2,3]
>> [4,1,2,3]
>> [5,4,1,2]
> 
> That's three different lists. What is the input in each case? Under what
> circumstances would you expect each one to be produced?

I suspect the OP means:

first input is 0, list = [ 0 ]
next input is 1, list = [ 0, 1 ]
next input is 2, list = [ 0, 1, 2 ]
next input is 3, list = [ 0, 1, 2, 3 ]
next input is 4, list = [ 4, 1, 2, 3 ]
next input is 5, list = [ 5, 4, 1, 2 ]

But this is a bit daft, because he starts by appending, and when he hits 
overflow he starts prepending.

What I think he should do is use collections.dequeue and a couple of 
helper functions to add and get data items.

For a queue moving from position 0 to position 3 (left to right):

from collections import deque

q = dequeue([])

def add_to_queue( item, q ):
	if len( q ) is 4:
		q.pop()
	q.appendleft( item )

def get_next( q ):
	if len( q ) > 0:
		return q.pop()
	return None

To move from position 3 to position 0 (right to left), swap pop and 
appendleft for popleft and append.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Mon Dec 16 00:10:22 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:10:22 -0800
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AE8B3E.2020802@islandtraining.com>

On 12/15/2013 08:38 PM, shengjie.shengjie at live.com wrote:
> Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my values to be wrapped around it.
> For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> [0,1,2,3]
> [4,1,2,3]
> [5,4,1,2]
>
> Thanks in advance and much help appreciated.

Is the output really three lists as you show.  Or is that one list whose 
contents you have shown three snapshots of?  Then what was the point of 
putting 4 in the first spot when you are just going to move it to the 
second spot?  And why stop at 4 and 5?  What about 7, 8, and 9?

Are you really shifting elements onto the beginning of the list and off 
the end of the list?  (That's easy to do, but is that what you want?)

If I follow your example a few elements further I get [9,8,7,6], just 
the last four elements of the original list in reverse order -- so there 
is no need fill a list and "wrap-around"  -- just grab the last four 
elements and reverse them.

Or have I misunderstood the problem completely?  (I think that's 
likely.)  I'm sure Python is general enough to do what you want, but 
you'll have to do a much better job telling is what you want.  While you 
are at it, tell us what you've already done, and how it fails to do 
whatever it is you want.

Gary Herron



From shengjie.shengjie at live.com  Mon Dec 16 00:26:49 2013
From: shengjie.shengjie at live.com (shengjie.shengjie at live.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:26:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4181.1387171006.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4181.1387171006.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 16 December 2013 13:10:22 UTC+8, Gary Herron  wrote:
> On 12/15/2013 08:38 PM, shengjie.shengjie at live.com wrote:
> 
> > Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my values to be wrapped around it.
> 
> > For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> 
> > I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> 
> > [0,1,2,3]
> 
> > [4,1,2,3]
> 
> > [5,4,1,2]
> 
> >
> 
> > Thanks in advance and much help appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the output really three lists as you show.  Or is that one list whose 
> 
> contents you have shown three snapshots of?  Then what was the point of 
> 
> putting 4 in the first spot when you are just going to move it to the 
> 
> second spot?  And why stop at 4 and 5?  What about 7, 8, and 9?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you really shifting elements onto the beginning of the list and off 
> 
> the end of the list?  (That's easy to do, but is that what you want?)
> 
> 
> 
> If I follow your example a few elements further I get [9,8,7,6], just 
> 
> the last four elements of the original list in reverse order -- so there 
> 
> is no need fill a list and "wrap-around"  -- just grab the last four 
> 
> elements and reverse them.
> 
> 
> 
> Or have I misunderstood the problem completely?  (I think that's 
> 
> likely.)  I'm sure Python is general enough to do what you want, but 
> 
> you'll have to do a much better job telling is what you want.  While you 
> 
> are at it, tell us what you've already done, and how it fails to do 
> 
> whatever it is you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Herron

The idea is to grab the last 4 elements of the array. However i have an array that contains a few hundred elements in it. And the values continues to .append over time. How would i be able to display the last 4 elements of the array under such a condition?


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Dec 16 04:15:48 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:15:48 +0100
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4181.1387171006.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8mgad$1gk$1@ger.gmane.org>

shengjie.shengjie at live.com wrote:

> The idea is to grab the last 4 elements of the array. However i have an
> array that contains a few hundred elements in it. And the values continues
> to .append over time. How would i be able to display the last 4 elements
> of the array under such a condition?

Use a deque:

>>> from collections import deque
>>> last_four = deque(maxlen=4)
>>> for i in range(10):
...     last_four.append(i)
... 
>>> last_four
deque([6, 7, 8, 9], maxlen=4)
>>> last_four.extend(range(100, 200))
>>> last_four
deque([196, 197, 198, 199], maxlen=4)
>>> last_four.append(42)
>>> last_four
deque([197, 198, 199, 42], maxlen=4)




From drobinow at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 07:41:57 2013
From: drobinow at gmail.com (David Robinow)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:41:57 -0500
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4181.1387171006.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3Xjbx=kkeXS4R20dQCmwAd3fz2B1G_HBm7296SvXHQS-YHBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:26 AM,  <shengjie.shengjie at live.com> wrote:
> The idea is to grab the last 4 elements of the array. However i have an array that contains a few hundred elements in it. And the values continues to .append over time. How would i be able to display the last 4 elements of the array under such a condition?

I assume you mean 'list' rather than 'array'.
If all you want to do is 'display' the last 4 elements:

big_list = [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9]
last4 =  big_list[-4:]
print(last4)


From davea at davea.name  Mon Dec 16 07:51:49 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 07:51:49 -0500
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4181.1387171006.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <cf42bb27-a2c9-4a94-9c74-a6ff1253a2ee@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.5192387228859290623@news.gmane.org>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:26:49 -0800 (PST), shengjie.shengjie at live.com 
wrote:
> The idea is to grab the last 4 elements of the array. However i 
have an array that contains a few hundred elements in it. And the 
values continues to .append over time. How would i be able to display 
the last 4 elements of the array under such a condition?

Your earlier example showed [5, 4, 1, 2] as one of the results, which 
is not "the last four". But assuming your goal has now changed and 
you really have an array (or list) of a few hundred elements,  then 
you can just use data [-4:] to get them. 

But if you're being imprecise and these values are not really in an 
array, then follow Peter ' advice and use a deque. Or fake it with a 
list,  appending to the end and popping from the beginning.

-- 
DaveA



From shengjie.shengjie at live.com  Mon Dec 16 00:26:57 2013
From: shengjie.shengjie at live.com (shengjie.shengjie at live.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:26:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Wrapping around a list in Python.
In-Reply-To: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
References: <e8123076-9f52-4a72-b262-908a5dcc8a10@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2cadbabb-768c-4c16-b52b-6bb183affd31@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, 16 December 2013 12:38:14 UTC+8, shengjie... at live.com  wrote:
> Hi guys, I am trying to create a fixed list which would allow my values to be wrapped around it.
> 
> For example i have 10 values : 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> 
> I need to create a list which contains 4 numbers and when the number exceeds the list, it would overwrite the first value.
> 
> [0,1,2,3]
> 
> [4,1,2,3]
> 
> [5,4,1,2]
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance and much help appreciated.


From seaspeak at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 01:41:08 2013
From: seaspeak at gmail.com (seaspeak at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 22:41:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
Message-ID: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>

    I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result from below is '?   <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
Can you explain what I did wrong, please.

    s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
    soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
    for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
        tag = soup.new_tag('span')
        tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
        for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
            if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
                break
            else:
                if ii.name=='b':
                    tag.string=ii.string
                    print(ii.replace_with(tag))
    print(soup)


From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 03:02:42 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:02:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
In-Reply-To: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
References: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <d038c329-d48f-4a70-8d8a-19e8bac2b57a@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:41:08 PM UTC+8, seas... at gmail.com wrote:
> I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result from below is '?   <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
> 
> Can you explain what I did wrong, please.
> 
> 
> 
>     s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
> 
>     soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
> 
>     for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
> 
>         tag = soup.new_tag('span')
> 
>         tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
> 
>         for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
> 
>             if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
> 
>                 break
> 
>             else:
> 
>                 if ii.name=='b':
> 
>                     tag.string=ii.string
> 
>                     print(ii.replace_with(tag))
> 
>     print(soup)

I think you should try some descent 
free editors such as notepad++ 
for your source codes to 
replace trivial strings without 
programmig.


From seaspeak at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 04:26:42 2013
From: seaspeak at gmail.com (seaspeak at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 01:26:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
In-Reply-To: <d038c329-d48f-4a70-8d8a-19e8bac2b57a@googlegroups.com>
References: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
 <d038c329-d48f-4a70-8d8a-19e8bac2b57a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c17ba96a-9d3c-4f3b-83b5-fe1f747e03c2@googlegroups.com>

88888 Dihedral? 2013?12?16????UTC+8??4?02?42????
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 2:41:08 PM UTC+8, seas... at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result from below is '?   <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
> 
> > 
> 
> > Can you explain what I did wrong, please.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> >     s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
> 
> > 
> 
> >     soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
> 
> > 
> 
> >     for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
> 
> > 
> 
> >         tag = soup.new_tag('span')
> 
> > 
> 
> >         tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
> 
> > 
> 
> >         for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
> 
> > 
> 
> >             if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
> 
> > 
> 
> >                 break
> 
> > 
> 
> >             else:
> 
> > 
> 
> >                 if ii.name=='b':
> 
> > 
> 
> >                     tag.string=ii.string
> 
> > 
> 
> >                     print(ii.replace_with(tag))
> 
> > 
> 
> >     print(soup)
> 
> 
> 
> I think you should try some descent 
> 
> free editors such as notepad++ 
> 
> for your source codes to 
> 
> replace trivial strings without 
> 
> programmig.

I think it's my fault, thanks


From seaspeak at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 03:39:41 2013
From: seaspeak at gmail.com (seaspeak at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 00:39:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
In-Reply-To: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
References: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5237630f-1c98-4094-96e6-bdc42404e8ba@googlegroups.com>

seas... at gmail.com? 2013?12?16????UTC+8??2?41?08????
> I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result from below is '?   <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
> 
> Can you explain what I did wrong, please.
> 
> 
> 
>     s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
> 
>     soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
> 
>     for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
> 
>         tag = soup.new_tag('span')
> 
>         tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
> 
>         for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
> 
>             if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
> 
>                 break
> 
>             else:
> 
>                 if ii.name=='b':
> 
>                     tag.string=ii.string
> 
>                     print(ii.replace_with(tag))
> 
>     print(soup)

the point is the result seems wrong. I don't know if that is my problem.
I simplify the code to emphasize the problem, there's no way an editor can do what I wanna do.


From andipersti at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 04:32:10 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:32:10 +0100
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
In-Reply-To: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
References: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AEC89A.9010904@gmail.com>

On 16.12.2013 07:41, seaspeak at gmail.com wrote:
> I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result
> frombelow is '? <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
> Can you explain what I did wrong, please.
>
>      s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
>      soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
>      for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
>          tag = soup.new_tag('span')
>          tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
>          for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
>              if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
>                  break
>              else:
>                  if ii.name=='b':
>                      tag.string=ii.string
>                      print(ii.replace_with(tag))
>      print(soup)
>

You are only creating one new tag but as I understand your problem you 
want to replace each b-element with a new tag. Simply move the tag 
creating part:

for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
     for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
         if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
             break
         else:
             if ii.name=='b':
                 tag = soup.new_tag('span')
                 tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
                 tag.string=ii.string
                 print(ii.replace_with(tag))

And please read
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
if you want to continue using Google Groups for accessing this list.

Bye, Andreas


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Dec 16 04:33:24 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:33:24 +0100
Subject: Need Help with the BeautifulSoup problem, please
References: <89f67420-0b59-4f45-bf33-cd4e17467852@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8mhbd$mlh$1@ger.gmane.org>

seaspeak at gmail.com wrote:

>     I need to replace all tag <b> with <span> after ?. But the result from
>     below is '?   <span style="REPLACE">D</span> / <font></font>'
> Can you explain what I did wrong, please.
> 
>     s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
>     soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
>     for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
>         tag = soup.new_tag('span')
>         tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
>         for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
>             if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
>                 break
>             else:
>                 if ii.name=='b':
>                     tag.string=ii.string
>                     print(ii.replace_with(tag))
>     print(soup)

It looks like you cannot reuse a tag. Try

    s = '?<b>A</b> <b>B</b> <b>C</b> <b>D</b> / <font></font>'
    soup = BeautifulSoup(s)
    for i in soup.find_all(text='?'):
        for ii in i.find_next_siblings():
            if ii.name=='font' or str(ii).lstrip('')[0:1]=='/':
                break
            else:
                if ii.name=='b':
                    tag = soup.new_tag('span')
                    tag['style'] = 'REPLACE'
                    tag.string=ii.string
                    print(ii.replace_with(tag))
    print(soup)




From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Mon Dec 16 05:17:50 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:17:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Launching Helium: A Selenium wrapper that makes web automation 50%
 easier
Message-ID: <bcabd398-510c-4a7b-ae1a-05ac72695a36@googlegroups.com>

Hi everyone,

I'm working for a startup called BugFree Software and would like to announce that today we're launching our second product!

Helium is a library that wraps around Selenium to simplify web automation. It does away with many of the technicalities involved with web scripting. For example: Here is a Selenium script. Can you guess what it does?

    >>> ff = Firefox()
    ...
    >>> text_area = ff.find_element_by_id("u_0_1q")
    >>> text_area.send_keys("Hello World!")
    >>> button = ff.find_element_by_class_name("_42g-")
    >>> button.click()

Here is the same script rewritten using Helium:

    >>> start_firefox()
    ...
    >>> write("Hello World!", into="Update Status")
    >>> click("Post")

Can you now guess what it does? That's right; It updates your Facebook status.

In an extended comparison that we were invited to write for the December issue of Professional Tester (professionaltester.com), we found that an example script automating Gmail took 66% fewer lines of code and 75% less effort using Helium than with Selenium alone.

You can find more information and download Helium from http://heliumhq.com. Any feedback would be highly appreciated.

Hoping to hear your thoughts and comments,
Michael Herrmann
heliumhq.com


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:40:56 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:40:56 -0500
Subject: Launching Helium: A Selenium wrapper that makes web automation
 50% easier
In-Reply-To: <bcabd398-510c-4a7b-ae1a-05ac72695a36@googlegroups.com>
References: <bcabd398-510c-4a7b-ae1a-05ac72695a36@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY4Wsd4h=tuqpDtSq_+fD1d7i_PknW2ZEbpYR9c0sdfMuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 5:17 AM, Michael Herrmann
<michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm working for a startup called BugFree Software and would like to announce that today we're launching our second product!
>
> Helium is a library that wraps around Selenium to simplify web automation. It does away with many of the technicalities involved with web scripting. For example: Here is a Selenium script. Can you guess what it does?
>
>     >>> ff = Firefox()
>     ...
>     >>> text_area = ff.find_element_by_id("u_0_1q")
>     >>> text_area.send_keys("Hello World!")
>     >>> button = ff.find_element_by_class_name("_42g-")
>     >>> button.click()
>
> Here is the same script rewritten using Helium:
>
>     >>> start_firefox()
>     ...
>     >>> write("Hello World!", into="Update Status")
>     >>> click("Post")
>
> Can you now guess what it does? That's right; It updates your Facebook status.
>
> In an extended comparison that we were invited to write for the December issue of Professional Tester (professionaltester.com), we found that an example script automating Gmail took 66% fewer lines of code and 75% less effort using Helium than with Selenium alone.
>
> You can find more information and download Helium from http://heliumhq.com. Any feedback would be highly appreciated.
>
> Hoping to hear your thoughts and comments,

Is this open source?


From michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com  Mon Dec 16 08:18:37 2013
From: michael.herrmann at heliumhq.com (Michael Herrmann)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 05:18:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Launching Helium: A Selenium wrapper that makes web automation
 50% easier
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4203.1387194062.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <bcabd398-510c-4a7b-ae1a-05ac72695a36@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4203.1387194062.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <991a675c-90c5-41a8-a7f7-945259024248@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 12:40:56 PM UTC+1, Larry.... at gmail.com wrote:
...
> Is this open source?

No. We quit our daytime jobs to work on this project and need the income to sustain our development...


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 05:55:29 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 02:55:29 -0800
Subject: Python, mySQL and password
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTz2pmBHQ7OsK5jAnZiovGeUYni_kne_F4QbWEainScStw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
Is there a way to make python script that connects to mySQL DB ask for
a password on the:

conn = mdb.connect(host, user)

line.
The host variable is "localhost" and the user variable is "root" (for
developmental purposes).

Thank you.


From airween at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:16:41 2013
From: airween at gmail.com (Ervin =?utf-8?Q?Heged=C3=BCs?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:16:41 +0100
Subject: Python, mySQL and password
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTz2pmBHQ7OsK5jAnZiovGeUYni_kne_F4QbWEainScStw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTz2pmBHQ7OsK5jAnZiovGeUYni_kne_F4QbWEainScStw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131216111640.GA4852@arxnet.hu>

Hello,

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 02:55:29AM -0800, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> Is there a way to make python script that connects to mySQL DB ask for
> a password on the:
> 
> conn = mdb.connect(host, user)
> 
> line.
> The host variable is "localhost" and the user variable is "root" (for
> developmental purposes).

may be you think some like this:

import MySQLdb


dsn = {
    'host':   "127.0.0.1",
    'user':   "root",
    'passwd': "",
    'port':   3306,
    'db':     "test"
}

dsn['passwd'] = raw_input("Enter password for %s: " % (dsn['user']))

mysql = MySQLdb.connect(**dsn)
cursor = mysql.cursor(MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursor)


but at this way the password what you type will showing!



a.



From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Dec 16 06:38:33 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:38:33 +0100
Subject: Python, mySQL and password
References: <CA+FnnTz2pmBHQ7OsK5jAnZiovGeUYni_kne_F4QbWEainScStw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131216111640.GA4852@arxnet.hu>
Message-ID: <l8mom2$9ee$1@ger.gmane.org>

Ervin Heged?s wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 02:55:29AM -0800, Igor Korot wrote:
>> Hi, ALL,
>> Is there a way to make python script that connects to mySQL DB ask for
>> a password on the:
>> 
>> conn = mdb.connect(host, user)
>> 
>> line.
>> The host variable is "localhost" and the user variable is "root" (for
>> developmental purposes).
> 
> may be you think some like this:
> 
> import MySQLdb
> 
> 
> dsn = {
>     'host':   "127.0.0.1",
>     'user':   "root",
>     'passwd': "",
>     'port':   3306,
>     'db':     "test"
> }
> 
> dsn['passwd'] = raw_input("Enter password for %s: " % (dsn['user']))
> 
> mysql = MySQLdb.connect(**dsn)
> cursor = mysql.cursor(MySQLdb.cursors.DictCursor)
> 
> 
> but at this way the password what you type will showing!

To avoid that use getpass.getpass() instead of raw_input().

http://docs.python.org/2/library/getpass.html




From airween at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:46:11 2013
From: airween at gmail.com (Ervin =?utf-8?Q?Heged=C3=BCs?=)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:46:11 +0100
Subject: Python, mySQL and password
In-Reply-To: <l8mom2$9ee$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTz2pmBHQ7OsK5jAnZiovGeUYni_kne_F4QbWEainScStw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20131216111640.GA4852@arxnet.hu> <l8mom2$9ee$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131216114610.GA4943@arxnet.hu>

Hello Peter,

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 12:38:33PM +0100, Peter Otten wrote:
> Ervin Heged?s wrote:
> 
> > dsn['passwd'] = raw_input("Enter password for %s: " % (dsn['user']))
> > 
[...]

> > but at this way the password what you type will showing!
> 
> To avoid that use getpass.getpass() instead of raw_input().
> 
> http://docs.python.org/2/library/getpass.html

well, thanks a lot :)


a.
 


From nicholas.cole at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:18:17 2013
From: nicholas.cole at gmail.com (Nicholas Cole)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 11:18:17 +0000
Subject: Packaging a private project
Message-ID: <CAAu18hcZudUk=oix3E9LnwUavbFi4+Cowo0s3QNx6B+UQF+X7w@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

What is the best way to distribute a private, pure python, Python 3
project that needs several modules (some available on pypi but some
private and used by several separate projects) in order to run?

I'd like to include everything that my project needs to run in a
single package.  The best way to do this seems to be to be to create
symlinks to the source code of the "3rd party" modules I need and
create a setup.py file that includes them in its "packages" list.  Is
this what other people do?

But even more ideally, I'd like to package my script and its
dependencies in a single zip file that can be executed by python
directly.  I see several declarations that this is possible online,
but I can't find a simple recipe for converting a script and its
dependencies into this kind of distribution. Could someone give me a
pointer to a description of "the right way to do it".

I'm making life harder for myself by using python 3 (PyInstaller still
only supports Python 2) and by the fact that I can't release some of
the necessary code publicly.  Releasing modules and scripts on pypi
has become very easy -- I'd forgotten how hard packaging private code
is!

Thank you for any help.

N.


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 17:39:36 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:39:36 +0000
Subject: Packaging a private project
In-Reply-To: <CAAu18hcZudUk=oix3E9LnwUavbFi4+Cowo0s3QNx6B+UQF+X7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAu18hcZudUk=oix3E9LnwUavbFi4+Cowo0s3QNx6B+UQF+X7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxQ8O5n1K5bf3Az-LJYWgw270Xxvy0S1vH0QLJTF6q-mew@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 16, 2013 11:20 AM, "Nicholas Cole" <nicholas.cole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>
> What is the best way to distribute a private, pure python, Python 3
> project that needs several modules (some available on pypi but some
> private and used by several separate projects) in order to run?
>
> I'd like to include everything that my project needs to run in a
> single package.  The best way to do this seems to be to be to create
> symlinks to the source code of the "3rd party" modules I need and
> create a setup.py file that includes them in its "packages" list.  Is
> this what other people do?
>
> But even more ideally, I'd like to package my script and its
> dependencies in a single zip file that can be executed by python
> directly.  I see several declarations that this is possible online,
> but I can't find a simple recipe for converting a script and its
> dependencies into this kind of distribution. Could someone give me a
> pointer to a description of "the right way to do it".

For pure python code it's as simple as putting the code in a zip file with
a script called __main__.py. Then you can run the zip file with python as
if it was a python script.

Oscar
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From theller at ctypes.org  Tue Dec 17 16:24:09 2013
From: theller at ctypes.org (Thomas Heller)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:24:09 +0100
Subject: Packaging a private project
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4201.1387192698.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4201.1387192698.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhbti1Fa197U1@mid.individual.net>

Am 16.12.2013 12:18, schrieb Nicholas Cole:
> Dear List,
>
> What is the best way to distribute a private, pure python, Python 3
> project that needs several modules (some available on pypi but some
> private and used by several separate projects) in order to run?
>
> I'd like to include everything that my project needs to run in a
> single package.  The best way to do this seems to be to be to create
> symlinks to the source code of the "3rd party" modules I need and
> create a setup.py file that includes them in its "packages" list.  Is
> this what other people do?
>
> But even more ideally, I'd like to package my script and its
> dependencies in a single zip file that can be executed by python
> directly.  I see several declarations that this is possible online,
> but I can't find a simple recipe for converting a script and its
> dependencies into this kind of distribution. Could someone give me a
> pointer to a description of "the right way to do it".
>
> I'm making life harder for myself by using python 3 (PyInstaller still
> only supports Python 2) and by the fact that I can't release some of
> the necessary code publicly.  Releasing modules and scripts on pypi
> has become very easy -- I'd forgotten how hard packaging private code
> is!

Well, pyzzer comes to mind (you find it on pypi).  It creates an
executable zip-archive containing all the stuff that you need (at least
the pure python modules).

The problem remains: how to find all the modules and packages that need
to be included?

Python's modulefinder can do this for you.  If you want to live on the
cutting edge you could try the new one that I've written for Python3.
It currently lives in

http://code.google.com/p/ctypes-stuff/source/browse/trunk/mf/py2exe/mf3.py

It has several advantages against the standard library's modulefinder;
for example it finds and is able to extract the bytecode even from
zipped eggs.
For examples how it can be used, you could peek into the runtime.py
module in the same directory, method build_library of class Runtime.

I guess for an experienced developer it takes around one day to take
these pieces and build a script that scans a python script, finds all
the needed modules and packages, and uses pyzzer to build an executable
archive from it.

Thomas


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Mon Dec 16 06:40:53 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 04:40:53 -0700
Subject: Question RE urllib
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>

So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are
all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the home
page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally ?
 Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script ?
 There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
those in the following script as examples.   Thanks

import urllib

sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
etc.]

for site in sites:
    try:
        urllib.urlopen(site)
        print site + " "
    except Exception, e:
        print site + " is down"
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From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 06:54:48 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:54:48 -0500
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6j=RGVqKO2EYkAFOvjMwmYxtgnv5bWMxVWdFar2dSBYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:
> So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are
> all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
> are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the home
> page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally ?
> Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
> sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script ?
> There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use those
> in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>
> import urllib
>
> sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
> etc.]
>
> for site in sites:
>     try:
>         urllib.urlopen(site)
>         print site + " "
>     except Exception, e:
>         print site + " is down"

In the handler print out the exception you are getting.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Mon Dec 16 07:04:23 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:04:23 -0600
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131216060423.614d5530@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-16 04:40, Jeff James wrote:
> These sites do not require a logon in order for the home
> page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked
> internally ? Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but
> all are internal sites.  Is there some other component I should be
> including in the script ?

From your description, I'm unsure whether it's *only* the HTTPS sites
that are having issues, or a subset of your URL list that includes
both HTTP and HTTPS (where those sites happen to be internal).

Either way, my first suspicion is that you have some sort of proxy
server in your network that web-browsers use.  The urlopen() accepts a
parameter to list proxy server information, which you should be able
to glean from your browser settings.

If your web-browser isn't using a proxy, the sites might be doing
unsavory things like filtering by user-agent.  Dumping the contents
of the exception (and including it here) might help diagnose.

-tkc





From jeff at jeffljames.com  Mon Dec 16 14:55:25 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 12:55:25 -0700
Subject: Question RE urllib
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3v=SPc2caaor1xOezLMPNmO_i-r_vUhJ8FXuXMO2PUqBA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry to be a pain here, guys, as I'm also a newbie at this as well.

Where, exactly in the script would I place the " print str(e)  " ?

Thanks

Original message :

I'm not really receiving an "exception" other than those three sites, out
> of the 30 or so I have listed, are the only sites which show "is down" at
> the end of that line specifying the site.
>
> Where " # " has been substituted for our domain name........
>
> https://my.####.com/intranet.html<https://my./#%23%23%23.com/intranet.html>* is
> down*
> http://#####.main.####.com/psso/pssignsso.asp?dbname=FSPRD90
> * is down*
> http://sharepoint.####.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx<http://sharepoint./#%23%23%23.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx>
> * is down*
>
>
>
> > So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they
> are
> > all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
> > are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
> home
> > page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked
> internally ?
> > Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
> > sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the
> script ?
> > There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
> those
> > in the following script as examples.   Thanks
> >
> > import urllib
> >
> > sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "
> https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
> > etc.]
> >
> > for site in sites:
> >     try:
> >         urllib.urlopen(site)
> >         print site + " "
> >     except Exception, e:
> >         print site + " is down"
>
> In the handler print out the exception you are getting.
>

If your exception handler is being called then you are indeed getting an
exception. Add:

print str(e)

to the handler
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From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 14:57:05 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:57:05 -0500
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3v=SPc2caaor1xOezLMPNmO_i-r_vUhJ8FXuXMO2PUqBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3v=SPc2caaor1xOezLMPNmO_i-r_vUhJ8FXuXMO2PUqBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY5b0E5Ek2DEyQOWob9S7fjhRE=BtWyKhdezj87P1Adj6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:
> Sorry to be a pain here, guys, as I'm also a newbie at this as well.
>
> Where, exactly in the script would I place the " print str(e)  " ?

The line after the print site + " is down" line.

>
> Thanks
>
> Original message :
>
>> I'm not really receiving an "exception" other than those three sites, out
>> of the 30 or so I have listed, are the only sites which show "is down" at
>> the end of that line specifying the site.
>>
>> Where " # " has been substituted for our domain name........
>>
>> https://my.####.com/intranet.html is down
>> http://#####.main.####.com/psso/pssignsso.asp?dbname=FSPRD90 is down
>> http://sharepoint.####.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx is down
>>
>>
>>
>> > So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they
>> > are
>> > all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact,
>> > they
>> > are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
>> > home
>>
>> > page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked
>> > internally ?
>> > Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
>> > sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the
>> > script ?
>> > There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
>> > those
>> > in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>> >
>> > import urllib
>> >
>> > sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/",
>> > "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
>> > etc.]
>> >
>> > for site in sites:
>> >     try:
>> >         urllib.urlopen(site)
>> >         print site + " "
>> >     except Exception, e:
>> >         print site + " is down"
>>
>> In the handler print out the exception you are getting.
>
>
> If your exception handler is being called then you are indeed getting an
> exception. Add:
>
> print str(e)
>
> to the handler
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


From gordon at panix.com  Mon Dec 16 15:58:01 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:58:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Question RE urllib
References: <mailman.4234.1387223734.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8npgp$1go$1@reader1.panix.com>

In <mailman.4234.1387223734.18130.python-list at python.org> Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> writes:

> --f46d04479f936227ee04edac31bd
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> Sorry to be a pain here, guys, as I'm also a newbie at this as well.

> Where, exactly in the script would I place the " print str(e)  " ?

    except Exception, e:
        print site + " is down"
        print str(e)

-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From wrw at mac.com  Mon Dec 16 22:45:02 2013
From: wrw at mac.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:45:02 -0500
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3v7GFjvpi-PtE8=u7DSaxqDtrao5C=m4qekmzW7smvNZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <845225DB-0FB0-4C36-AE7B-729897F41D52@mac.com>

On Dec 16, 2013, at 6:40 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:

> So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the home page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally ?  Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script ?  There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use those in the following script as examples.   Thanks
> 
> import urllib
> 
> sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html", etc.]
> 
> for site in sites:
>     try:
>         urllib.urlopen(site)
>         print site + " "
>     except Exception, e:
>         print site + " is down"
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

I've never used urllib, although I've done a fair amount of network programming at lower levels.

Are you sure the report of "down" isn't simply a time out due to the server being busier than you expect when you hit it?

-Bill
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From jeff at jeffljames.com  Tue Dec 17 10:26:25 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:26:25 -0700
Subject: Question RE urllib
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3uR=MCX7x31fRnpmfRqZo2GUMJft2bVgqLaDsJEZGheFw@mail.gmail.com>

So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are
all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the home
page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally ?
 Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script ?
 There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
those in the following script as examples.   Thanks

import urllib

sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
etc.]

for site in sites:
    try:
        urllib.urlopen(site)
        print site + " "
    except Exception, e:
        print site + " is down"
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


I've never used urllib, although I've done a fair amount of network
programming at lower levels.

Are you sure the report of "down" isn't simply a time out due to the server
being busier than you expect when you hit it?

-Bill

After adding the line suggested by Larry, I was able to determine that the
URLs reporting as "down" were actually sites requiring authentication in
order to provide site content, so adding that line to the handler was at
least enlightening in that respect.  Thanks Larry.
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From larry.martell at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 11:10:12 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:10:12 -0500
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3uR=MCX7x31fRnpmfRqZo2GUMJft2bVgqLaDsJEZGheFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3uR=MCX7x31fRnpmfRqZo2GUMJft2bVgqLaDsJEZGheFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY7=J1Uc_UtcZtPoGZT4_+7EzELT1GdL2y8CLJLcWgUkbQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrot
>
>  So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they
> are all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact,
> they are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
> home page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked
> internally ?  Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all
> are internal sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in
> the script ?  There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I
> just use those in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>
> import urllib
>
> sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
> etc.]
>
> for site in sites:
>     try:
>         urllib.urlopen(site)
>         print site + " "
>     except Exception, e:
>         print site + " is down"
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
> I've never used urllib, although I've done a fair amount of network
> programming at lower levels.
>
> Are you sure the report of "down" isn't simply a time out due to the
> server being busier than you expect when you hit it?
>
> -Bill
>
> After adding the line suggested by Larry, I was able to determine that the
> URLs reporting as "down" were actually sites requiring authentication in
> order to provide site content, so adding that line to the handler was at
> least enlightening in that  respect.  Thanks Larry.
>
Glad to help. Here is some info on authenticating with urllib:

http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/urllib2.html#id6

>
>
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From toby at tobiah.org  Tue Dec 17 11:25:48 2013
From: toby at tobiah.org (Tobiah)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:25:48 -0800
Subject: Question RE urllib
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4292.1387296620.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <CA+pMb3uR=MCX7x31fRnpmfRqZo2GUMJft2bVgqLaDsJEZGheFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4292.1387296620.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <gW_ru.420$gh2.338@fx24.iad>

On 12/17/2013 08:10 AM, Larry Martell wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com <mailto:jeff at jeffljames.com>> wrot
>
>>     So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are all up and some of them are reporting they are
>>     "down" when, in fact, they are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the home page to come up.  Could
>>     this be due to some port being blocked internally ?  Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
>>     sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script ?  There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed
>>     in all.  I just use those in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>>
>>     import urllib
>>
>>     sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html", etc.]
>>
>>     for site in sites:
>>         try:
>>             urllib.urlopen(site)
>>             print site + " "
>>         except Exception, e:
>>             print site + " is down"
>>     --
>>     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>     I've never used urllib, although I've done a fair amount of network programming at lower levels.
>
>     Are you sure the report of "down" isn't simply a time out due to the server being busier than you expect when you hit it?
>
>     -Bill
>
>     After adding the line suggested by Larry, I was able to determine that the URLs reporting as "down" were actually sites
>     requiring authentication in order to provide site content, so adding that line to the handler was at least enlightening in that
>     respect.  Thanks Larry.
>
> Glad to help. Here is some info on authenticating with urllib:
>
> http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/urllib2.html#id6
>
>


It must be a network problem, cuz your code works fine:

:w !python
http://www.amazon.com/
http://google.com
http://tobiah.org
http://notavalidurl.com
http://superreallyforsurenotavalidurlnokidding.com is down

Tobiah


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Mon Dec 16 08:09:10 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:09:10 -0700
Subject: Question Re urllib (Jeff James)
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3tz_Cr7w=zXE6DaN4igK848vLRxsTvi4PBDvkPQK3z56w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not really receiving an "exception" other than those three sites, out
of the 30 or so I have listed, are the only sites which show "is down" at
the end of that line specifying the site.

Where " # " has been substituted for our domain name........

https://my.####.com/intranet.html* is down*
http://#####.main.####.com/psso/pssignsso.asp?dbname=FSPRD90
* is down*
http://sharepoint.####.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx
* is down*



Cc: python-list at python.org
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:54:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Question RE urllib
On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:
> So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are
> all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
> are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
home
> page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally
?
> Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
> sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script
?
> There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
those
> in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>
> import urllib
>
> sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html
",
> etc.]
>
> for site in sites:
>     try:
>         urllib.urlopen(site)
>         print site + " "
>     except Exception, e:
>         print site + " is down"

In the handler print out the exception you are getting.
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From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 08:22:39 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 08:22:39 -0500
Subject: Question Re urllib (Jeff James)
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3tz_Cr7w=zXE6DaN4igK848vLRxsTvi4PBDvkPQK3z56w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3tz_Cr7w=zXE6DaN4igK848vLRxsTvi4PBDvkPQK3z56w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6cfBUcQeDQWRRcgxrCX0DrPfHR-cVTKaaPRDi+D1JYKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013, Jeff James wrote:

> I'm not really receiving an "exception" other than those three sites, out
> of the 30 or so I have listed, are the only sites which show "is down" at
> the end of that line specifying the site.
>
>
> Where " # " has been substituted for our domain name........
>
> https://my.####.com/intranet.html* is down*
> http://#####.main.####.com/psso/pssignsso.asp?dbname=FSPRD90
> * is down *
> http://sharepoint.####.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx
> * is down*
>
>
>
> Cc: python-list at python.org <javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
> 'python-list at python.org');>
> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:54:48 -0500
> Subject: Re: Question RE urllib
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'jeff at jeffljames.com');>>
> wrote:
> > So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they
> are
> > all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
> > are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
> home
> > page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked
> internally ?
> > Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
> > sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the
> script ?
> > There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
> those
> > in the following script as examples.   Thanks
> >
> > import urllib
> >
> > sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "
> https://internalsite.com/intranet.html",
> > etc.]
> >
> > for site in sites:
> >     try:
> >         urllib.urlopen(site)
> >         print site + " "
> >     except Exception, e:
> >         print site + " is down"
>
> In the handler print out the exception you are getting.
>

If your exception handler is being called then you are indeed getting an
exception. Add:

print str(e)

to the handler
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From sem2jy at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 09:31:13 2013
From: sem2jy at gmail.com (sem2jy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 06:31:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Small script to check serial port  sucking down system resources.
Message-ID: <f25bc39b-2626-4019-b789-8d39f2f4772c@googlegroups.com>

i am new to python and programming all together.

i wrote a program to watch a serial port and look for a command.  
then send a tcp packet.  
all works great but it takes my processor load to about %25.
not sure if there is a way to make this more efficient.

import serial

import socket
HOST = '127.0.0.1'    # The remote host
PORT = 5250             # The same port as used by the server
s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
s.connect((HOST, PORT))

##vvvvvvvvvvvv

ser = serial.Serial(
    port='COM10',\
    baudrate=9600,\
    parity=serial.PARITY_NONE,\
    stopbits=serial.STOPBITS_ONE,\
    bytesize=serial.EIGHTBITS,\
        timeout=0)

print("connected to: " + ser.portstr)

#this will store the line
line = []
c = 0
while True:
    for c in ser.readline():
        line.append(c)

        if c == '1':
            
            s.send('CG 1-21 ADD 1 reserveisoff 1 \r\n')
            data = s.recv(1024)
            print 'Received', repr(data)
           
            print("one")
            line = []
            break
     
        if c == '2':
            
            s.send('PLAY 1-1 AMB.mp4 \r\n')
            data = s.recv(1024)
            print 'Received', repr(data)
            s.send('LOADBG 1-1 EMPTY MIX 30 AUTO \r\n')
            data = s.recv(1024)
            print 'Received', repr(data)
            print("two")
            line = []
            
            break

s.close()
ser.close()





From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Mon Dec 16 14:05:16 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:05:16 +0000
Subject: Small script to check serial port sucking down system resources.
In-Reply-To: <f25bc39b-2626-4019-b789-8d39f2f4772c@googlegroups.com>
References: <f25bc39b-2626-4019-b789-8d39f2f4772c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52AF4EEC.5050302@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 16/12/2013 14:31, sem2jy at gmail.com wrote:
> i am new to python and programming all together.
>
> i wrote a program to watch a serial port and look for a command.
> then send a tcp packet.
> all works great but it takes my processor load to about %25.
> not sure if there is a way to make this more efficient.
>
> import serial
>
> import socket
> HOST = '127.0.0.1'    # The remote host
> PORT = 5250             # The same port as used by the server
> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> s.connect((HOST, PORT))
>
> ##vvvvvvvvvvvv
>
> ser = serial.Serial(
>      port='COM10',\
>      baudrate=9600,\
>      parity=serial.PARITY_NONE,\
>      stopbits=serial.STOPBITS_ONE,\
>      bytesize=serial.EIGHTBITS,\
>          timeout=0)
>
> print("connected to: " + ser.portstr)
>
> #this will store the line
> line = []
> c = 0
> while True:
>      for c in ser.readline():
>          line.append(c)
>
>          if c == '1':
>
>              s.send('CG 1-21 ADD 1 reserveisoff 1 \r\n')
>              data = s.recv(1024)
>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>
>              print("one")
>              line = []
>              break
>
>          if c == '2':
>
>              s.send('PLAY 1-1 AMB.mp4 \r\n')
>              data = s.recv(1024)
>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>              s.send('LOADBG 1-1 EMPTY MIX 30 AUTO \r\n')
>              data = s.recv(1024)
>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>              print("two")
>              line = []
>
>              break
>
> s.close()
> ser.close()
>
I think the problem might be that you've set the timeout to 0, so it
doesn't block if there's no data available.



From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 16 15:16:26 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:16:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Small script to check serial port sucking down system resources.
References: <f25bc39b-2626-4019-b789-8d39f2f4772c@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4231.1387220710.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8nn2q$mr9$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-16, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 16/12/2013 14:31, sem2jy at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> i wrote a program to watch a serial port and look for a command. then
>> send a tcp packet. all works great but it takes my processor load to
>> about %25. not sure if there is a way to make this more efficient.
>>
>> import serial
>>

[...]

>> ser = serial.Serial(
>>      port='COM10',\
>>      baudrate=9600,\
>>      parity=serial.PARITY_NONE,\
>>      stopbits=serial.STOPBITS_ONE,\
>>      bytesize=serial.EIGHTBITS,\
>>          timeout=0)
>>
>> print("connected to: " + ser.portstr)
>>
>> #this will store the line
>> line = []

>> c = 0

The line above is useless -- it binds 'c' to the integer value 0, but
then you rebind 'c' to something else without ever referencing that
value.

>> while True:
>>      for c in ser.readline():
>>          line.append(c)
>>
>>          if c == '1':
>>
>>              s.send('CG 1-21 ADD 1 reserveisoff 1 \r\n')
>>              data = s.recv(1024)
>>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>>
>>              print("one")
>>              line = []
>>              break
>>
>>          if c == '2':
>>
>>              s.send('PLAY 1-1 AMB.mp4 \r\n')
>>              data = s.recv(1024)
>>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>>              s.send('LOADBG 1-1 EMPTY MIX 30 AUTO \r\n')
>>              data = s.recv(1024)
>>              print 'Received', repr(data)
>>              print("two")
>>              line = []
>>
>>              break
>>
>> s.close()
>> ser.close()

> I think the problem might be that you've set the timeout to 0, so it
> doesn't block if there's no data available.

That is indeed the problem.  When there's no serial data you're
spinning around in that loop as fast as your CPU can go.  Try setting
"timeout = None" when you set up the serial port.  That way the call
to ser.readline() will block (IOW won't return) until there's actually
data to be processed.  While blocked waiting for serial data, your
program won't be using up any CPU time.

Your for loop with breaks looks odd2.  Can you explain what it's
suposed to be doing?  You seem to be using the for loop to iterate
through the characters in each input line, but then breaking out of
the loop the first time you see either a '1' or '2' in each line.  Is
that what you intended?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Quick, sing me the
                                  at               BUDAPEST NATIONAL ANTHEM!!
                              gmail.com            


From ravi.itm at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:16:51 2013
From: ravi.itm at gmail.com (Ravi Prabakaran)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:16:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic needed.
Message-ID: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output without any loops.
I have list of string and list of list of numbers.
Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth values to generate proper titles in list of strings.

t = ['Start','End']
a = [[1,2,3,4],
     [5,6,7,8]]


Expected Result : ( list of strings )

['Start - 3 , End - 4',
 'Start - 7 , End - 8']

Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.


Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?

Thanks
Ravi


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:29:37 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:29:37 +1100
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
In-Reply-To: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqScyCref8zdJT+jyi2f4n3aqqV3DUb5LuQBY_fnCsw7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Ravi Prabakaran <ravi.itm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?
>

Why "without loops"? The best solution, in my opinion, is a loop. Is
this a specific challenge (homework)? I could make you a list
comprehension, but that's really just another form of loop

More information on the problem parameters, please?

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 12:43:04 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:43:04 +0000
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
In-Reply-To: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ne2u$jhb$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 16/12/2013 17:16, Ravi Prabakaran wrote:
> Hi,
> I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output without any loops.
> I have list of string and list of list of numbers.
> Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth values to generate proper titles in list of strings.
>
> t = ['Start','End']
> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>       [5,6,7,8]]
>
> Expected Result : ( list of strings )
>
> ['Start - 3 , End - 4',
>   'Start - 7 , End - 8']
>
> Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.
>
> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?
>
> Thanks
> Ravi
>

I've no idea what your definition of "best" is but this works.

strings = ['{} - {} , {} - {}'.format(t[0], b[-2], t[1], b[-1]) for b in a]

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 16 15:23:14 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:23:14 -0500
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
In-Reply-To: <l8ne2u$jhb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
 <l8ne2u$jhb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8nnf8$5jf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/2013 12:43 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 16/12/2013 17:16, Ravi Prabakaran wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output
>> without any loops.
>> I have list of string

The remainder of your description and example imply that this must be a 
sequence of exactly two strings. In other words, 'list' is both too 
specific as to class and not specific enough as to length.

 >> and list of list of numbers.

While this must be an iterable of sequences of exactly 4 numbers.

>> Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth values
>> to generate proper titles in list of strings.
>>
>> t = ['Start','End']
>> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>>       [5,6,7,8]]
>>
>> Expected Result : ( list of strings )
>>
>> ['Start - 3 , End - 4',
>>   'Start - 7 , End - 8']
>>
>> Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.
>>
>> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?

If the length of the iterable of sequences is not fixed, a loop of some 
sort is needed.

> I've no idea what your definition of "best" is but this works.
>
> strings = ['{} - {} , {} - {}'.format(t[0], b[-2], t[1], b[-1]) for b in a]

Very nice. The following use the format mini language to do the 
indexing, avoiding passing the args twice each.

strings = ['{0[0]} - {1[2]} , {0[1]} - {1[3]}'.format(t, b) for b in a]

form = '{src[0]} - {val[2]} , {src[1]} - {val[3]}'
strings = [form.format(src=t, val=b) for b in a]

The first should be faster, but may be less readable. Note that '-2' and 
'-1' do not work as int indexes in the field names because they would be 
interpreted as string keys rather than integers.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:51:21 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:51:21 +1100
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
In-Reply-To: <6112663707411483025@unknownmsgid>
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4224.1387214986.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <6112663707411483025@unknownmsgid>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrfVcajy5ZPuCpyH6+DvY5P_N5njdWJA1rft-KRBM44Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Ravi Prabakaran <ravi.itm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Chris,
>
> Thanks for reply.   If you have any good idea with loop, please post.  But
> i'm looking same without loop because python has slicing,concatenating and
> other straight forward feature. I guess it can be done without loop.  My
> client does not prefer loops and expects simple and neat code to improve
> performance. We are dealing with billion data.

I'm going to hope that it was in error that you sent this off-list, or
at least that you won't mind my replying on-list. Here's one way to do
it:

t = ['Start','End']
a = [[1,2,3,4],
     [5,6,7,8]]
result = []
for cur in a:
     result.append("%s - %d"%(t[0],cur[2]))
     result.append("%s - %d"%(t[1],cur[3]))

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:52:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:52:30 +1100
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrfVcajy5ZPuCpyH6+DvY5P_N5njdWJA1rft-KRBM44Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4224.1387214986.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <6112663707411483025@unknownmsgid>
 <CAPTjJmrfVcajy5ZPuCpyH6+DvY5P_N5njdWJA1rft-KRBM44Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmopTeWYfe9YyKx2PzdTkKcGdKjPCbAoR-+JmqvLcdVjjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 4:51 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> t = ['Start','End']
> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>      [5,6,7,8]]
> result = []
> for cur in a:
>      result.append("%s - %d"%(t[0],cur[2]))
>      result.append("%s - %d"%(t[1],cur[3]))

Whoops, I misread the desired output, I thought you wanted a
four-string list. It's two strings. That's actually easier, and Mark's
solution is pretty much what I'd go for.

ChrisA


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Mon Dec 16 13:13:18 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 16 Dec 2013 20:13:18 +0200
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qotiouomzpd.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Ravi Prabakaran writes:

> I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output
> without any loops.
> I have list of string and list of list of numbers.
> Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth
> values to generate proper titles in list of strings.
> 
> t = ['Start','End']
> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>      [5,6,7,8]]
> 
> 
> Expected Result : ( list of strings )
> 
> ['Start - 3 , End - 4',
>  'Start - 7 , End - 8']
> 
> Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.
> 
> 
> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?

That's a strange requirement - to have repetition without loops, in
Python, and still have a best solution.

I suppose it's fine to have a (built-in) function do the looping for
you so that there is no explicit loop in your own code. The .format
method of Python strings can do each individual string:

   list(map('{2} - {0} , {3} - {1}'
            .format('{0[2]}', '{0[3]}', *t)
            .format, a))

The first (inner) call of .format builds the actual format string
whose .format method then builds each output string: {0[2]} in a
format string refers to the argument position 0 and its element
position 2; *t spreads the two elements of t as further positional
arguments.

If you have any background in functional programming with lists, map
should be fine and familiar. I would probably build and name the
format string outside the actual call as follows (untested).

   start, end = t
   format = ( '{2} - {0} , {3} - {1}'
              .format('{0[2]}', '{0[3]}', start, end)
              .format )
   list(map(format, a))

All other things that come to mind would either be too much like loops
or they couldn't possibly be a best solution.

Incidentally, if you want a one-liner and tolerate long lines, the
first form I gave is perfectly good for that purpose.

I think *t and str.format require version 3 of Python.


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Dec 16 13:37:08 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:37:08 +0100
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
 <qotiouomzpd.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <l8nh6v$q4f$1@ger.gmane.org>

Jussi Piitulainen wrote:

> Ravi Prabakaran writes:
> 
>> I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output
>> without any loops.
>> I have list of string and list of list of numbers.
>> Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth
>> values to generate proper titles in list of strings.
>> 
>> t = ['Start','End']
>> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>>      [5,6,7,8]]
>> 
>> 
>> Expected Result : ( list of strings )
>> 
>> ['Start - 3 , End - 4',
>>  'Start - 7 , End - 8']
>> 
>> Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.
>> 
>> 
>> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?
> 
> That's a strange requirement - to have repetition without loops, in
> Python, and still have a best solution.
> 
> I suppose it's fine to have a (built-in) function do the looping for
> you so that there is no explicit loop in your own code. The .format
> method of Python strings can do each individual string:
> 
>    list(map('{2} - {0} , {3} - {1}'
>             .format('{0[2]}', '{0[3]}', *t)
>             .format, a))

Don't do that if t may contain user data. For the sake of the argument let's 
assume that a[...][0:2] is confidential. Then

>>> t = "{0[0]}", "{0[1]}"
>>> list(map('{2} - {0} , {3} - {1}'
...             .format('{0[2]}', '{0[3]}', *t)
...             .format, a))
['1 - 3 , 2 - 4', '5 - 7 , 6 - 8']

(I think doubling the braces is sufficient to fix this)

> The first (inner) call of .format builds the actual format string
> whose .format method then builds each output string: {0[2]} in a
> format string refers to the argument position 0 and its element
> position 2; *t spreads the two elements of t as further positional
> arguments.





From gordon at panix.com  Mon Dec 16 13:50:31 2013
From: gordon at panix.com (John Gordon)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:50:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Concatenate string list to number list to form title - Logic
 needed.
References: <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ni1m$s1l$2@reader1.panix.com>

In <2333bfb4-cd72-4ed0-9b28-d8dbe26b5be2 at googlegroups.com> Ravi Prabakaran <ravi.itm at gmail.com> writes:

> Hi,
> I'm completely new to python. I just need simple logic to get output without any loops.
> I have list of string and list of list of numbers.
> Each string should be concatenated with every third and fourth values to generate proper titles in list of strings.

> t = ['Start','End']
> a = [[1,2,3,4],
>      [5,6,7,8]]


> Expected Result : ( list of strings )

> ['Start - 3 , End - 4',
>  'Start - 7 , End - 8']

> Note : First 2 values from each list should be ignored.


> Could anyone please guide me with best solution without loops ?

output_list = []
t = ['Start','End']
a = [[1,2,3,4],
     [5,6,7,8]]

output_list.append('%s - %s, %s - %s' % (t[0], a[0][2], t[1], a[0][3]))
output_list.append('%s - %s, %s - %s' % (t[0], a[1][2], t[1], a[1][3]))

print output_list


-- 
John Gordon         Imagine what it must be like for a real medical doctor to
gordon at panix.com    watch 'House', or a real serial killer to watch 'Dexter'.



From wmcbrine at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 12:32:59 2013
From: wmcbrine at gmail.com (wmcbrine at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 09:32:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
Message-ID: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>

I have a Tkinter app that can optionally label some buttons with certain Unicode glyphs that aren't always available (depending on the OS, etc.). When they aren't available, Tkinter renders them as "\uNNNN". What I'd like to do is check whether the glyphs are available, and fall back to my own alternate text for the button if not. Can I do this?

I'd also like to do the same in pygtk.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 16 14:41:00 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:41:00 -0500
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
References: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8nl02$81k$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/2013 12:32 PM, wmcbrine at gmail.com wrote:
> I have a Tkinter app that can optionally label some buttons with
> certain Unicode glyphs that aren't always available (depending on the
> OS, etc.).

It depends on the font in use. The best scenario would be to always use 
the same unicode font. Idle, built on tkinter, has a configuration 
dialog that gets a list of available fonts and sets the one the user 
selects. I use Lucida Sans Unicode. It is not very pretty, but it seems 
to cover much the BMP. AFAIK, it should be available on all Windows from 
XP on. I do not know what comes with *nix and mac, but from reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode_font#List_of_Unicode_fonts
there seem to be TrueType fonts that you could install with your 
software: FreeSerif (etc), GNU Unifont, (both GPL), BitstreamCyber (free 
for non-commercial use). The font table linked above is followed by 
table indicating something about coverage. Unifont is the champ.

 > When they aren't available, Tkinter renders them as
> "\uNNNN". What I'd like to do is check whether the glyphs are
> available, and fall back to my own alternate text for the button if
> not. Can I do this?

Don't know. See the 'Utility software' section of the page above.

> I'd also like to do the same in pygtk.

No idea.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From wmcbrine at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 18:59:55 2013
From: wmcbrine at gmail.com (wmcbrine at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:59:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4233.1387222873.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4233.1387222873.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c2a0c7e1-4983-4187-b35f-8f7c0ae834e5@googlegroups.com>

I'm not going to control the font. This is for a program that's distributed to the general public, for use on a wide variety of systems. But what I do in the current version is to use the ASCII label strings by default, and have a command-line option to select the "graphical" (non-ASCII Unicode) labels. What I want is to make the graphical labels the default, and have the program detect, at runtime, whether any of the glyphs used in the fancy labels would render as "\uNNNN" in whatever the default font for the buttons is, and automatically revert to the ASCII labels in that case.

I'm assuming this is possible, because Tkinter itself seems to know which glyphs are unavailable, or they'd probably be showing up as those boxed number characters or question marks instead of "\uNNNN".


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 16 22:58:06 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:58:06 -0500
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <c2a0c7e1-4983-4187-b35f-8f7c0ae834e5@googlegroups.com>
References: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4233.1387222873.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2a0c7e1-4983-4187-b35f-8f7c0ae834e5@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8oi44$t83$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/2013 6:59 PM, wmcbrine at gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not going to control the font.

Tk widgets that display text must use *some* font. If you do not select 
one, then you get the system-dependent default.
for k, v in tk.Text().configure().items(): print(k, v)
...

font ('font', 'font', 'Font', <font object: 'TkFixedFont'>, 'TkFixedFont')

TkTextFont may be preferable for your purposes, although on Windows both 
might be Courier New.

> This is for a program that's
> distributed to the general public, for use on a wide variety of
> systems. But what I do in the current version is to use the ASCII
> label strings by default, and have a command-line option to select
> the "graphical" (non-ASCII Unicode) labels. What I want is to make
> the graphical labels the default, and have the program detect, at
> runtime, whether any of the glyphs used in the fancy labels would
> render as "\uNNNN" in whatever the default font for the buttons is,
> and automatically revert to the ASCII labels in that case.

I would not assume that the default covers more than ascii.

But to answer your question, this might work: fonts have a measure() 
method that returns what the pixel length of a string would be if it 
were to be displayed.

 >>> import tkinter.font as tkf
 >>> ft=tkf.Font(font='TkFixedFont')
 >>> ft.metrics()
{'ascent': 17, 'descent': 5, 'fixed': 1, 'linespace': 22}
 >>> ft.measure('a')
12
 >>> ft.measure('\u9fff')
12

*If* the measure is, say, 50 or more for a character that would display 
as \uNNNN, then you would know. Go ahead and experiment.

> I'm assuming this is possible, because Tkinter itself seems to know
> which glyphs are unavailable, or they'd probably be showing up as
> those boxed number characters or question marks instead of "\uNNNN".

I do not know whether it is tk itself or a system graphics call that 
translates a sequence of codes to pixels on the screen.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From wmcbrine at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 18:10:58 2013
From: wmcbrine at gmail.com (wmcbrine at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 15:10:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4255.1387252699.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4233.1387222873.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2a0c7e1-4983-4187-b35f-8f7c0ae834e5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4255.1387252699.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <31f4e87b-dad7-4bdc-a703-07964cc8c1d1@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 16, 2013 10:58:06 PM UTC-5, Terry Reedy wrote:

> I would not assume that the default covers more than ascii.

In this case, I already know that the glyphs I chose work with the default fonts for OS X 10.4+ and Windows 7+, but not for (for example) Win XP.

> But to answer your question, this might work: fonts have a measure() 
> method that returns what the pixel length of a string would be if it 
> were to be displayed.

Thanks. Unfortunately, measure() doesn't seem to do the trick -- it's giving me answers that look like normal single-width characters, for glyphs that actually render as \uNNNN. Oh well. :/


From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 04:18:20 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 01:18:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Determining whether a glyph is available in Tkinter
In-Reply-To: <31f4e87b-dad7-4bdc-a703-07964cc8c1d1@googlegroups.com>
References: <f84fbcb9-e784-4a2a-9c27-d55136e3c7b2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4233.1387222873.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <c2a0c7e1-4983-4187-b35f-8f7c0ae834e5@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4255.1387252699.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <31f4e87b-dad7-4bdc-a703-07964cc8c1d1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <cbf37d68-c8e0-45a1-ae8d-138a4b37fe9c@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 20 d?cembre 2013 00:10:58 UTC+1, wmcb... at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> On Monday, December 16, 2013 10:58:06 PM UTC-5, Terry Reedy wrote:
> 
 
> 
> In this case, I already know that the glyphs I chose work with the default fonts for OS X 10.4+ and Windows 7+, but not for (for example) Win XP.
> 
> 

As I pointed in an another thread, Windows 7 is the
first Windows which became full unicode compliant
(0th order approximation).

If your application works fine with win7, good. If it
does not on XP, it's like this.


---

Font: I do not know what glyphs you "need". Do
not expect to find always a single font that will
cover your needs.

It's a little bit a side effect of "unicode", but
everything has been constructed to be a no problem.
And it is a no problem.

jmf


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Mon Dec 16 15:27:08 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:27:08 -0700
Subject: Question Re urllib (Resolved)
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3tj--88qU+bBmw1RY+9S6UuWS+xpTxUZD-kvUES_ozAFw@mail.gmail.com>

This worked perfectly.   Thank You


Where, exactly in the script would I place the " print str(e)  " ?

The line after the print site + " is down" line.



Original Post :



I'm not really receiving an "exception" other than those three sites, out
of the 30 or so I have listed, are the only sites which show "is down" at
the end of that line specifying the site.

Where " # " has been substituted for our domain name........

https://my.####.com/intranet.html
<https://my./#%23%23%23.com/intranet.html>* is
down*
http://#####.main.####.com/psso/pssignsso.asp?dbname=FSPRD90
* is down*
http://sharepoint.####.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx<http://sharepoint./#%23%23%23.com/regions/west/PHX_NSC/default.aspx>
* is down*




> So I'm using the following script to check our sites to make sure they are
> all up and some of them are reporting they are "down" when, in fact, they
> are actually up.   These sites do not require a logon in order for the
home
> page to come up.  Could this be due to some port being blocked internally
?
> Only one of the sites reporting as down is "https" but all are internal
> sites.  Is there some other component I should be including in the script
?
> There are about 30 or 40 sites that I have listed in all.  I just use
those
> in the following script as examples.   Thanks
>
> import urllib
>
> sites = ["http://www.amazon.com/", "https://internalsite.com/intranet.html
",
> etc.]
>
> for site in sites:
>     try:
>         urllib.urlopen(site)
>         print site + " "
>     except Exception, e:
>         print site + " is down"

In the handler print out the exception you are getting.
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From pedrovg000 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 17:19:18 2013
From: pedrovg000 at gmail.com (Djoser)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:19:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
Message-ID: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and also to Python, but I'm trying hard to understand it  better.
I need to create a binary file, but the first 4 lines must be in signed-Integer16 and all the others in signed-Integer32. I have a program that does that with Matlab and other with Mathematica, but I'm converting all for Python.

I tried first to convert the number to binary using 'bin(number'), than I removed the '0b' and converted to 'Int16' or 'Int32', but with this approach I can't save a binary file using 'bytearray(').

How can I do that?


Thanks in advance.


From ckaynor at zindagigames.com  Mon Dec 16 17:28:18 2013
From: ckaynor at zindagigames.com (Chris Kaynor)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:28:18 -0800
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CALvWhxtLUm-gU_1kXxOpUGs526jeB7uQ89VMFR+Eyx48KoJ0pg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Djoser <pedrovg000 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am new to this forum and also to Python, but I'm trying hard to
> understand it  better.
> I need to create a binary file, but the first 4 lines must be in
> signed-Integer16 and all the others in signed-Integer32. I have a program
> that does that with Matlab and other with Mathematica, but I'm converting
> all for Python.
>
> I tried first to convert the number to binary using 'bin(number'), than I
> removed the '0b' and converted to 'Int16' or 'Int32', but with this
> approach I can't save a binary file using 'bytearray(')



How can I do that?
>


What you probably want is to use the struct module:
http://docs.python.org/3/library/struct.html

You probably also want the open method and file objects:
http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#open

It would help if you provided information about which Python version you
are using, and exactly what you mean by "I can't save a binary file using
'bytearray(')". Do you get a traceback, if so, copy it in your message,
along with actual code that produces your problem (preferably simplified,
but not too far).
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From pedrovg000 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 17:35:51 2013
From: pedrovg000 at gmail.com (Djoser)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:35:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4238.1387232927.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4238.1387232927.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <78898917-848b-4af8-915a-74df920330ec@googlegroups.com>

I'm using python 2.7.
If I understood correctly, using bytearray I will lost the information about the signed 16, 32, since it makes automatically the conversion.

Do you think that I can make the conversion as I proposed before or using struct and save with open()? 


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Mon Dec 16 17:48:56 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:48:56 -0600
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131216164856.50158bd8@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-16 14:19, Djoser wrote:
> I am new to this forum and also to Python, but I'm trying hard to
> understand it  better.

Welcome aboard!

> I need to create a binary file, but the first 4 lines must be in
> signed-Integer16 and all the others in signed-Integer32. I have a
> program that does that with Matlab and other with Mathematica, but
> I'm converting all for Python.

You seem to be conflating ideas here:  a binary file doesn't really
have "lines".  Do you mean "first 4 bytes"?  If so, then a
signed-Integer16 really only occupies 2 bytes, so you'd have to pad
it somehow.  That said, I suspect that the "struct" module will get
you what you want:

  from struct import pack
  header16bit = 31415
  data = list(range(10))
  with open('output.bin', 'wb') as f:
    f.write(pack('h', header16bit))
    for signed_32bit_number in data:
      f.write(pack('i', signed_32bit_number))
    f.write(other_stuff)

You might need to specify the byte-ordering, which you can do by
prefixing the "h" or "i" with ">", "<" or "=" s documented at [1]

-tkc

[1]
http://www.python.org/doc//current/library/struct.html





.


From pedrovg000 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 18:30:14 2013
From: pedrovg000 at gmail.com (Djoser)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 15:30:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4241.1387234067.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4241.1387234067.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <fffa6a25-9477-4fba-b50c-c75cf0e35abb@googlegroups.com>

Basically I have a .dat file, so I get some numbers and make a different conversion.
I'll try this struct script. I'm not used to it, but it seems to do what I want.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 20:01:35 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 17:01:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <fffa6a25-9477-4fba-b50c-c75cf0e35abb@googlegroups.com>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4241.1387234067.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <fffa6a25-9477-4fba-b50c-c75cf0e35abb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <dec54cfc-d3ee-43b1-9aca-4b8409be869e@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:00:14 AM UTC+5:30, Djoser wrote:
> Basically I have a .dat file, so I get some numbers and make a different conversion.
> 
> I'll try this struct script. I'm not used to it, but it seems to do what I want.

Construct is a very powerful utility for binary parsing and building
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/construct
http://construct.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

Though for your currently stated purpose struct should be enough


From oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 06:21:18 2013
From: oscar.j.benjamin at gmail.com (Oscar Benjamin)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:21:18 +0000
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVvXxQ28190hj03+1LnBCjepTUNh1Dv3i+s86tFVM-LsCqYUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 December 2013 22:19, Djoser <pedrovg000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,

Hi Djoser,

> I am new to this forum and also to Python, but I'm trying hard to understand it  better.
> I need to create a binary file, but the first 4 lines must be in signed-Integer16 and all the others in signed-Integer32. I have a program that does that with Matlab and other with Mathematica, but I'm converting all for Python.

If you're coming from Matlab/Mathematica to Python you will likely
want to use the numpy library. This provides an array type that is
similar to Matlab arrays.

> I tried first to convert the number to binary using 'bin(number'), than I removed the '0b' and converted to 'Int16' or 'Int32', but with this approach I can't save a binary file using 'bytearray(').

Using numpy you can do this as follows:

import numpy as np

# Create arrays with the appropriate numeric types
first_numbers = np.array([12, -2, 10, -1], np.int16)
other_numbers = np.array([123, 123, 432, 543, 654, 654], np.int32)

# Output direct to binary file
with open('outputfile.bin', 'wb') as fout:
    first_numbers.tofile(fout)
    other_numbers.tofile(fout)

# Read back in from binary file
with open('outputfile.bin', 'rb') as fin:
    first_numbers_read = np.fromfile(fin, np.int16, count=4)
    other_numbers_read = np.fromfile(fin, np.int32)

# Print the data that we read back to check it's right.
print(first_numbers_read)
print(other_numbers_read)


Oscar


From pedrovg000 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 13:54:44 2013
From: pedrovg000 at gmail.com (Djoser)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:54:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [newbie] Saving binaries in a specific way
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4277.1387279307.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3dcea919-82ad-4e0a-a00a-fa04ba39b1dd@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4277.1387279307.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4c36e605-ea16-4986-bddf-466490c5355c@googlegroups.com>

Thank you.
With numpy it works perfectly. I thought it would lost the information about int32 and int16 with this approach.

Now I will try to make the script with struct too, but I'll need a bit more time to really understand. For me it's a new paradigm. But that's nice. :)


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 20:55:47 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 07:25:47 +0530
Subject: Installing Python from sources with all the modules
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qGUnWigCLZsVwS6SjdvBk7iBXabJmchG0=8KdS4d2Gziw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I am trying to install Python 3.3 from the latest sources on linux.

After the installation when I try to run the following I get a error:


   ./python
   Python 3.3.3 (default, Dec 16 2013, 18:28:25)
   [GCC 4.8.2 20131017 (Red Hat 4.8.2-1)] on linux
   Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
   >>> import ssl
   Traceback (most recent call last):
     File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
     File "/home/shankha/Python-git/Python3-3/Python-3.3.3/Lib/ssl.py",line
   60, in <module>
       import _ssl             # if we can't import it, let the error
   propagate
   ImportError: No module named '_ssl'


Is there a way while installing from sources I enable all modules to be
installed.

-- 
Thanks
Gudge
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 16 23:02:14 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:02:14 -0500
Subject: Installing Python from sources with all the modules
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qGUnWigCLZsVwS6SjdvBk7iBXabJmchG0=8KdS4d2Gziw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qGUnWigCLZsVwS6SjdvBk7iBXabJmchG0=8KdS4d2Gziw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8oibs$vd4$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/16/2013 8:55 PM, shankha wrote:
> I am trying to install Python 3.3 from the latest sources on linux.
>
> After the installation when I try to run the following I get a error:
>
>     ./python
>     Python 3.3.3 (default, Dec 16 2013, 18:28:25)
>     [GCC 4.8.2 20131017 (Red Hat 4.8.2-1)] on linux
>     Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>     >>>  import ssl
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>        File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>        File
>     "/home/shankha/Python-git/Python3-3/Python-3.3.3/Lib/ssl.py", line
>     60, in <module>
>          import _ssl # if we can't import it, let the error propagate
>     ImportError: No module named '_ssl'
>
>
> Is there a way while installing from sources I enable all modules to be
> installed.

Check http://docs.python.org/devguide
On Windows, I would add 'check <repository>/PcBuild/README. I do not 
know if there is the equivalent for *nix.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From drobinow at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 23:26:09 2013
From: drobinow at gmail.com (David Robinow)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:26:09 -0500
Subject: Installing Python from sources with all the modules
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qGUnWigCLZsVwS6SjdvBk7iBXabJmchG0=8KdS4d2Gziw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qGUnWigCLZsVwS6SjdvBk7iBXabJmchG0=8KdS4d2Gziw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF3XjbxwXW9zbCuvYYevBo7skVkJujGfj7TbowRciMfRw-B7oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 8:55 PM, shankha <shankhabanerjee at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I am trying to install Python 3.3 from the latest sources on linux.
>
> After the installation when I try to run the following I get a error:
>
> ./python
> Python 3.3.3 (default, Dec 16 2013, 18:28:25)
> [GCC 4.8.2 20131017 (Red Hat 4.8.2-1)] on linux
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import ssl
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "/home/shankha/Python-git/Python3-3/Python-3.3.3/Lib/ssl.py", line
> 60, in <module>
>     import _ssl             # if we can't import it, let the error propagate
> ImportError: No module named '_ssl'
>
>
> Is there a way while installing from sources I enable all modules to be
> installed.


You need to install the openssl development package. I don't know how
you do that on Red Hat.  Don't use it myself.
 There will probably be other missing modules for which you will have
to install prerequisites for. Once you do that they should build
automatically when you rebuild.


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:08:21 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 07:38:21 +0530
Subject: Running Python tests
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qHMQub+UE=MA4NfN19FaQ4xH6LbnFi7a+X-X6rS-igO-A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I am following the developers guide in running Python tests. I had few
questions.

1) Say I run the tests and the run got interrupted after few minutes. I
want to start afresh.
Is there a way to get rid of all the test results or intermediate files or
python does the job as and when the test is running.

2) The dev guide says (http://docs.python.org/devguide/)

./python -m test -j3

Can we run the test with -j1 or -j2 or without any options.

Will there be any difference in results.


-- 
Thanks
Gudge
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From murahati at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:21:30 2013
From: murahati at gmail.com (Mura Zalukhu)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:21:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Server for Python
Message-ID: <ff41fe42-7022-419e-8cfa-ddc5cf61d1f7@googlegroups.com>

Hi all,
I am a newbiew for python,
i want to improve my programming for python.
but i have searching any tutorial to configuration python for webserver but no one of tutorial solved my problem.

could you give me how to configuration ptyhon on webserver like apache / php or
Thanks so much


From david.garvey at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:40:56 2013
From: david.garvey at gmail.com (david.garvey at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 18:40:56 -0800
Subject: Web Server for Python
In-Reply-To: <ff41fe42-7022-419e-8cfa-ddc5cf61d1f7@googlegroups.com>
References: <ff41fe42-7022-419e-8cfa-ddc5cf61d1f7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CA+oqfxQr50KGD2nnyjftzrM9kMtTm1o5f6V9LjT1xhihtQZT9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mura,

apache is used as a proxy with python. You would fire up your python web
app and put apache in front of it. Apache does come these days with wsgi
https://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/ that can be added to apache as module,
something like mod_wsgi can be used for your python web app. PHP is another
web app language similar to python that would be sitting behind apache and
would be loaded with PHP code. http://dan.drydog.com/apache2php.html

Example of python web app frameworks would be:
django: https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.2/howto/deployment/modwsgi/
web.py http://webpy.org/

And a lot more...

I hope this helps,
Cheers, dgarvey


On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Mura Zalukhu <murahati at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am a newbiew for python,
> i want to improve my programming for python.
> but i have searching any tutorial to configuration python for webserver
> but no one of tutorial solved my problem.
>
> could you give me how to configuration ptyhon on webserver like apache /
> php or
> Thanks so much
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
David Garvey
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From murahati at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 22:20:20 2013
From: murahati at gmail.com (Mura Zalukhu)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:20:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Web Server for Python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4250.1387248063.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <ff41fe42-7022-419e-8cfa-ddc5cf61d1f7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4250.1387248063.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <466d90d2-c948-40dc-bffd-2f150173348a@googlegroups.com>

Hi David,
Thanks for your reply,
i will learn it.
Could you give me the best tutorial / web for python. For example how to make a connection with database.
Thanks so much

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 9:40:56 AM UTC+7, david.... at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi Mura,
> 
> 
> apache is used as a proxy with python. You would fire up your python web app and put apache in front of it. Apache does come these days with wsgi?https://code.google.com/p/modwsgi/?that can be added to apache as module, something like mod_wsgi can be used for your python web app. PHP is another web app language similar to python that would be sitting behind apache and would be loaded with PHP code.?http://dan.drydog.com/apache2php.html??
> 
> 
> 
> Example of python web app frameworks would be:
> django:?https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.2/howto/deployment/modwsgi/
> 
> web.py?http://webpy.org/
> 
> 
> And a lot more...
> 
> 
> I hope this helps,
> Cheers, dgarvey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Mura Zalukhu <mura... at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I am a newbiew for python,
> 
> i want to improve my programming for python.
> 
> but i have searching any tutorial to configuration python for webserver but no one of tutorial solved my problem.
> 
> 
> 
> could you give me how to configuration ptyhon on webserver like apache / php or
> 
> Thanks so much
> 
> --
> 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> David Garvey


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 22:44:20 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 03:44:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Web Server for Python
References: <ff41fe42-7022-419e-8cfa-ddc5cf61d1f7@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4250.1387248063.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <466d90d2-c948-40dc-bffd-2f150173348a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ohak$2rd$1@dont-email.me>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:20:20 -0800, Mura Zalukhu wrote:

> Could you give me the best tutorial / web for python. For example how to
> make a connection with database.

Which database? Which version of Python?

Google may help. So will the Python on-line documentation.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:40:18 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:10:18 +0530
Subject: Total time in running Python Tests
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qEOAOuOcdtznVDBnZuJ9eRkPbdRmCyreaYqh8rk6Q2mFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
What is the usually the time taken to run Python tests on a x86 machine
with 1 GB of RAM?

http://docs.python.org/devguide/

./python -m test -j3

Should it be all PASS ? What is the expected summary of the results. Are
these good:


   .3 tests omitted:
       test___all__ test_site test_urllib2net
   348 tests OK.
   3 tests failed:
       test_codecs test_distutils test_ioctl
   2 tests altered the execution environment:
       test___all__ test_site
   33 tests skipped:
       test_bz2 test_codecmaps_cn test_codecmaps_hk test_codecmaps_jp
       test_codecmaps_kr test_codecmaps_tw test_curses test_dbm_gnu
       test_dbm_ndbm test_devpoll test_gzip test_idle test_kqueue
       test_lzma test_msilib test_ossaudiodev test_readline test_smtpnet
       test_socketserver test_sqlite test_ssl test_startfile test_tcl
       test_timeout test_tk test_ttk_guionly test_ttk_textonly
       test_urllibnet test_winreg test_winsound test_xmlrpc_net
       test_zipfile64 test_zlib

Are the results fine.

-- 
Thanks
Gudge
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From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 16 23:03:35 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 17 Dec 2013 04:03:35 GMT
Subject: Total time in running Python Tests
References: <mailman.4251.1387248066.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52afcd17$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:10:18 +0530, shankha wrote:

> Hi,
> What is the usually the time taken to run Python tests on a x86 machine
> with 1 GB of RAM?

If I remember correctly from the last time I did it, probably around 20 
or 30 minutes. I wasn't really paying attention, so I could be completely 
wrong.


> http://docs.python.org/devguide/
> 
> ./python -m test -j3
> 
> Should it be all PASS ? What is the expected summary of the results. Are
> these good:

Yes, it should all pass, but some failures aren't very important. If 
you're using the latest development version, you should expect some 
failures. Some modules are optional, like ssl and tkinter, or are 
disabled by default. If you are missing external dependencies like the SSL 
libraries, the ssl module will fail to work correctly.


>    .3 tests omitted:
>        test___all__ test_site test_urllib2net
>    348 tests OK.
>    3 tests failed:
>        test_codecs test_distutils test_ioctl


I would expect those to pass.


-- 
Steven


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:41:57 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:11:57 +0530
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qEXQvyHsPtHwLfN4cQG35MV7YOy4FKEa_Ak2vNnW8xMtw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
For people who wish to contribute is there a script which checks if the
patch is good and the test
results are matching with the baseline and basically says yes or no about
good or not good to merge.

-- 
Thanks
Gudge
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From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Mon Dec 16 21:46:36 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:16:36 +0530
Subject: Script for new contributors to check the patch
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qFg9NMK-TW+K5ZBssj3XttvoTgW5dEOX8t9zEfb_Wqf9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
For people who wish to contribute is there a script which checks if the
patch is good and the test
results are matching with the baseline and basically says yes or no about
good or not good to merge.

-- 
Thanks
Gudge


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 8:11 AM, shankha <shankhabanerjee at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> For people who wish to contribute is there a script which checks if the
> patch is good and the test
> results are matching with the baseline and basically says yes or no about
> good or not good to merge.
>
> --
> Thanks
> Gudge
>
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 16 23:01:10 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 04:01:10 +0000
Subject: Script for new contributors to check the patch
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qFg9NMK-TW+K5ZBssj3XttvoTgW5dEOX8t9zEfb_Wqf9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qFg9NMK-TW+K5ZBssj3XttvoTgW5dEOX8t9zEfb_Wqf9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8oi9q$q95$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 02:46, shankha wrote:
> Hi,
> For people who wish to contribute is there a script which checks if the
> patch is good and the test
> results are matching with the baseline and basically says yes or no
> about good or not good to merge.
>
> --
> Thanks
> Gudge
>

I think you'd be better off asking these type of questions here 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/core-mentorship

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 00:20:34 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:20:34 -0800
Subject: Reading csv file
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
Is there a better way to do that:

def Read_CSV_File(filename):
      file = open(filename, "r")
      reader = csv.DictReader(file)
      line = 1
      for row in reader:
          if line < 6:
             reader.next()
             line++
# process the CSV

Thank you.


From i.am.songoku at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 00:29:44 2013
From: i.am.songoku at gmail.com (Krishnan Shankar)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:59:44 +0530
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL0E0u60g5HZQX56VeAhgK9zPf-qiXne1i+bvD7B_Hu8Frvexg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Igor

You can use the following way to do this using "with" operator.

def Read_CSV_File(filename):
      with open(filename, "r") as csvfile:
          csvreader = csv.DictReader(csvfile)
          line = 1
          for row in csvreader:
              if line < 6:
                 reader.next()
                 line++
                 continue

     # process the CSV

Rest of the things are pretty much straightforward.

Regards,
Krishnan


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, ALL,
> Is there a better way to do that:
>
> def Read_CSV_File(filename):
>       file = open(filename, "r")
>       reader = csv.DictReader(file)
>       line = 1
>       for row in reader:
>           if line < 6:
>              reader.next()
>              line++
> # process the CSV
>
> Thank you.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 00:36:54 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:36:54 +0000
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8onsb$hus$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 05:20, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> Is there a better way to do that:
>
> def Read_CSV_File(filename):
>        file = open(filename, "r")
>        reader = csv.DictReader(file)
>        line = 1
>        for row in reader:
>            if line < 6:
>               reader.next()
>               line++
> # process the CSV
>
> Thank you.
>

Something like.

it = iter(csv.DictReader(file))
for _ in range(4): # if I've counted correctly :)
     next(it)
for row in it:
     # process the CSV

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec 17 03:20:48 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:20:48 +0100
Subject: Reading csv file
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org>

Igor Korot wrote:

> Hi, ALL,
> Is there a better way to do that:
> 
> def Read_CSV_File(filename):
>       file = open(filename, "r")
>       reader = csv.DictReader(file)
>       line = 1
>       for row in reader:
>           if line < 6:
>              reader.next()
>              line++
> # process the CSV
> 
> Thank you.

You mean a way that works?

line++

is a syntax error in Python. If you fix that

line = 1
for row in reader:
    if line < 6:
        reader next()
        line += 1

You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming 

(1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
(2) you want to skip the first five rows of data

you'd have to write

reader = csv.Reader(file)
line = 0
while line < 5:
    next(reader)
    line += 1
for row in reader:
    .... # process csv row

A simpler alternative is to use itertools.islice():

for row in itertools.islice(reader, 5, None):
    ... # process csv row




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec 17 03:55:43 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:55:43 +0100
Subject: Reading csv file
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>

Peter Otten wrote:

> You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming
> 
> (1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
> (2) you want to skip the first five rows of data
> 
> you'd have to write
> 
> reader = csv.Reader(file)

Sorry, I meant DictReader, not Reader.

> line = 0
> while line < 5:
>     next(reader)
>     line += 1
> for row in reader:
>     .... # process csv row
> 
> A simpler alternative is to use itertools.islice():
> 
> for row in itertools.islice(reader, 5, None):
>     ... # process csv row




From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 04:53:35 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 01:53:35 -0800
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, guys,

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> Peter Otten wrote:
>
>> You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming
>>
>> (1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
>> (2) you want to skip the first five rows of data

Looking at the Peter's reply I realized I missed very important piece:

The first row may or may not contain column names.
If it does not, the first row will just contain some text, i.e. "abc"
and the column names will be located on the row 6.

I know if does complicate things but I am deeply sorry.
The csv file is generated by some program run and I guess depending on
the switches passed to
that program it either creates the header in the csv (report name,
time slice it ran at, user it ran under
and some other info.
Or it can be run without such switch and then it generates a normal csv.

The report it generates is huge: it has about 30+ fields and I need to
read this report, parse it and
push accordingly to the database of mySQL.

Thank you for any suggestions and sorry for not posting complete task.

>>
>> you'd have to write
>>
>> reader = csv.Reader(file)
>
> Sorry, I meant DictReader, not Reader.
>
>> line = 0
>> while line < 5:
>>     next(reader)
>>     line += 1
>> for row in reader:
>>     .... # process csv row
>>
>> A simpler alternative is to use itertools.islice():
>>
>> for row in itertools.islice(reader, 5, None):
>>     ... # process csv row
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec 17 05:51:04 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 11:51:04 +0100
Subject: Reading csv file
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>

Igor Korot wrote:

> Hi, guys,
> 
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>> Peter Otten wrote:
>>
>>> You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming
>>>
>>> (1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
>>> (2) you want to skip the first five rows of data
> 
> Looking at the Peter's reply I realized I missed very important piece:
> 
> The first row may or may not contain column names.
> If it does not, the first row will just contain some text, i.e. "abc"
> and the column names will be located on the row 6.
> 
> I know if does complicate things but I am deeply sorry.
> The csv file is generated by some program run and I guess depending on
> the switches passed to
> that program it either creates the header in the csv (report name,
> time slice it ran at, user it ran under
> and some other info.
> Or it can be run without such switch and then it generates a normal csv.
> 
> The report it generates is huge: it has about 30+ fields and I need to
> read this report, parse it and
> push accordingly to the database of mySQL.
> 
> Thank you for any suggestions and sorry for not posting complete task.

Try the following (without the mock-ups of course):


$ cat csv_skip_header.py
import csv
import sys
from contextlib import contextmanager

filename = "ignored"

@contextmanager
def open(*args):
    "mock-up, replace with open() built-in"
    from StringIO import StringIO
    lines = range(10)
    if len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == "--skip":
        lines[0] = "skipped"
        lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
    else:
        lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
    yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))

def is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
    "mock-up, replace with the actual check"
    return "skipped" in fieldnames

with open(filename, "rb") as f:
    reader = csv.DictReader(f)
    if is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
        for _ in range(5):
            next(reader, None)
        reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
                                  # fieldnames setter doesn't work
        reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect
    for row in reader:
        print row
$ python csv_skip_header.py 
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
$ python csv_skip_header.py --skip
{'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}

You may find the following a bit cleaner:

with open(filename, "rb") as f:
    reader = csv.reader(f)
    fieldnames = next(reader)
    if is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
        for _ in range(5):
            next(reader, None)
        fieldnames = None
    reader = csv.DictReader(f, fieldnames=fieldnames)
    for row in reader:
        print row

Or you do the skipping on the file (only if the rows don't have embedded 
newlines).



From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 04:22:26 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 01:22:26 -0800
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTy_EDipp_CTwq3ePa8KfgKOUF2YqyXo9DpReZGP8aS32g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Peter,
Thank you for the great suggestion.

I tried to implement you code but failed.

Here's what I have:

class FileReader:
        def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
                self.path = filename
                self.isSkip = isSkip

        @contextmanager
        def open(*args):
                from StringIO import StringIO
                lines = range(10)
                if self.isSkip:
                        lines[0] = "skipped"
                        lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
                else:
                        lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
                yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))

        def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
                return "skipped" in fieldnames

        def readData(self):
                with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
                        reader = csv.DictReader(f)
                        if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
                                for _ in range(5):
                                        next(reader, None)
                                reader._fieldnames = None
                        for row in reader:
                                print row

Unfortunately this does not work as "def open()" does not belong to my
class and if I comment the "@contextmanager" line
I will get an exception: "AttributeError: __exit__"

Any idea what to do?

Thank you.


On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> Igor Korot wrote:
>
>> Hi, guys,
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>>> Peter Otten wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming
>>>>
>>>> (1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
>>>> (2) you want to skip the first five rows of data
>>
>> Looking at the Peter's reply I realized I missed very important piece:
>>
>> The first row may or may not contain column names.
>> If it does not, the first row will just contain some text, i.e. "abc"
>> and the column names will be located on the row 6.
>>
>> I know if does complicate things but I am deeply sorry.
>> The csv file is generated by some program run and I guess depending on
>> the switches passed to
>> that program it either creates the header in the csv (report name,
>> time slice it ran at, user it ran under
>> and some other info.
>> Or it can be run without such switch and then it generates a normal csv.
>>
>> The report it generates is huge: it has about 30+ fields and I need to
>> read this report, parse it and
>> push accordingly to the database of mySQL.
>>
>> Thank you for any suggestions and sorry for not posting complete task.
>
> Try the following (without the mock-ups of course):
>
>
> $ cat csv_skip_header.py
> import csv
> import sys
> from contextlib import contextmanager
>
> filename = "ignored"
>
> @contextmanager
> def open(*args):
>     "mock-up, replace with open() built-in"
>     from StringIO import StringIO
>     lines = range(10)
>     if len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == "--skip":
>         lines[0] = "skipped"
>         lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
>     else:
>         lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
>     yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
>
> def is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
>     "mock-up, replace with the actual check"
>     return "skipped" in fieldnames
>
> with open(filename, "rb") as f:
>     reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>     if is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>         for _ in range(5):
>             next(reader, None)
>         reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
>                                   # fieldnames setter doesn't work
>         reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect
>     for row in reader:
>         print row
> $ python csv_skip_header.py
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
> $ python csv_skip_header.py --skip
> {'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}
>
> You may find the following a bit cleaner:
>
> with open(filename, "rb") as f:
>     reader = csv.reader(f)
>     fieldnames = next(reader)
>     if is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
>         for _ in range(5):
>             next(reader, None)
>         fieldnames = None
>     reader = csv.DictReader(f, fieldnames=fieldnames)
>     for row in reader:
>         print row
>
> Or you do the skipping on the file (only if the rows don't have embedded
> newlines).
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From scottwjclarke at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 05:30:22 2013
From: scottwjclarke at gmail.com (Scott Jewloszewicz-Clarke)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 10:30:22 +0000
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTy_EDipp_CTwq3ePa8KfgKOUF2YqyXo9DpReZGP8aS32g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTy_EDipp_CTwq3ePa8KfgKOUF2YqyXo9DpReZGP8aS32g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABNOJCniYM7zU31JzK1aFy+XORvq41UPHtZ05jJtO8zng9LH3Q@mail.gmail.com>

You didn't pass in self as the first arg to open. This is necessary.

S


On 19 December 2013 09:22, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Peter,
> Thank you for the great suggestion.
>
> I tried to implement you code but failed.
>
> Here's what I have:
>
> class FileReader:
>         def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
>                 self.path = filename
>                 self.isSkip = isSkip
>
>         @contextmanager
>         def open(*args):
>                 from StringIO import StringIO
>                 lines = range(10)
>                 if self.isSkip:
>                         lines[0] = "skipped"
>                         lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
>                 else:
>                         lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
>                 yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
>
>         def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
>                 return "skipped" in fieldnames
>
>         def readData(self):
>                 with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
>                         reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>                         if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>                                 for _ in range(5):
>                                         next(reader, None)
>                                 reader._fieldnames = None
>                         for row in reader:
>                                 print row
>
> Unfortunately this does not work as "def open()" does not belong to my
> class and if I comment the "@contextmanager" line
> I will get an exception: "AttributeError: __exit__"
>
> Any idea what to do?
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:51 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> > Igor Korot wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, guys,
> >>
> >> On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> >>> Peter Otten wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You are still reading the complete csv file. Assuming
> >>>>
> >>>> (1) the first row of the csv contains the column names
> >>>> (2) you want to skip the first five rows of data
> >>
> >> Looking at the Peter's reply I realized I missed very important piece:
> >>
> >> The first row may or may not contain column names.
> >> If it does not, the first row will just contain some text, i.e. "abc"
> >> and the column names will be located on the row 6.
> >>
> >> I know if does complicate things but I am deeply sorry.
> >> The csv file is generated by some program run and I guess depending on
> >> the switches passed to
> >> that program it either creates the header in the csv (report name,
> >> time slice it ran at, user it ran under
> >> and some other info.
> >> Or it can be run without such switch and then it generates a normal csv.
> >>
> >> The report it generates is huge: it has about 30+ fields and I need to
> >> read this report, parse it and
> >> push accordingly to the database of mySQL.
> >>
> >> Thank you for any suggestions and sorry for not posting complete task.
> >
> > Try the following (without the mock-ups of course):
> >
> >
> > $ cat csv_skip_header.py
> > import csv
> > import sys
> > from contextlib import contextmanager
> >
> > filename = "ignored"
> >
> > @contextmanager
> > def open(*args):
> >     "mock-up, replace with open() built-in"
> >     from StringIO import StringIO
> >     lines = range(10)
> >     if len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == "--skip":
> >         lines[0] = "skipped"
> >         lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
> >     else:
> >         lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
> >     yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
> >
> > def is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
> >     "mock-up, replace with the actual check"
> >     return "skipped" in fieldnames
> >
> > with open(filename, "rb") as f:
> >     reader = csv.DictReader(f)
> >     if is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
> >         for _ in range(5):
> >             next(reader, None)
> >         reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
> >                                   # fieldnames setter doesn't work
> >         reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect
> >     for row in reader:
> >         print row
> > $ python csv_skip_header.py
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
> > {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
> > $ python csv_skip_header.py --skip
> > {'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> > {'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> > {'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> >
> > You may find the following a bit cleaner:
> >
> > with open(filename, "rb") as f:
> >     reader = csv.reader(f)
> >     fieldnames = next(reader)
> >     if is_arbitrary_text(fieldnames):
> >         for _ in range(5):
> >             next(reader, None)
> >         fieldnames = None
> >     reader = csv.DictReader(f, fieldnames=fieldnames)
> >     for row in reader:
> >         print row
> >
> > Or you do the skipping on the file (only if the rows don't have embedded
> > newlines).
> >
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 19 05:39:06 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:39:06 +0100
Subject: Reading csv file
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTy_EDipp_CTwq3ePa8KfgKOUF2YqyXo9DpReZGP8aS32g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8uibv$t2k$1@ger.gmane.org>

Igor Korot wrote:

> Hi, Peter,
> Thank you for the great suggestion.
> 
> I tried to implement you code but failed.
> 
> Here's what I have:
> 
> class FileReader:
>         def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
>                 self.path = filename
>                 self.isSkip = isSkip
> 
>         @contextmanager
>         def open(*args):

Selfless OO? Not in Python.

>                 from StringIO import StringIO
>                 lines = range(10)
>                 if self.isSkip:
>                         lines[0] = "skipped"
>                         lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
>                 else:
>                         lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
>                 yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
> 
>         def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
>                 return "skipped" in fieldnames
> 
>         def readData(self):
>                 with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
>                         reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>                         if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>                                 for _ in range(5):
>                                         next(reader, None)
>                                 reader._fieldnames = None

Here you introduced another bug, ignoring my helpful comments.

>>         reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
>>                                   # fieldnames setter doesn't work
>>         reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect

>                         for row in reader:
>                                 print row
> 
> Unfortunately this does not work as "def open()" does not belong to my
> class and if I comment the "@contextmanager" line
> I will get an exception: "AttributeError: __exit__"
> 
> Any idea what to do?

Keeping comments is not an option? But please read and try to understand the 
comments before you excise them ;)

As I mentioned in the comment to the open() function you are not supposed to 
use it as you have real data -- use Python's built-in open() function. 
Anyway, if you insist on doing everything the OO-way, at least add a self in 
all the right places and don't introduce bugs that could be avoided with 
copy-and-paste. 

A working script with mock data and following the OO fashion would be:

$ cat csv_skip_header_oo.py
import csv
from contextlib import contextmanager

class FileReader:
    def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
        self.path = filename
        self.isSkip = isSkip

    @contextmanager
    def open(self, *args):
        from StringIO import StringIO
        lines = range(10)
        if self.isSkip:
            lines[0] = "skipped"
            lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
        else:
            lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
        yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))

    def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
        return "skipped" in fieldnames

    def readData(self):
        with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
            reader = csv.DictReader(f)
            if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
                for _ in range(5):
                    next(reader, None)

                reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
                                          # fieldnames setter doesn't work
                reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect

            for row in reader:
                print row

if __name__ == "__main__":
    import sys
    print "Demo with made-up data"
    skip = len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == "--skip"
    if skip:
        print "Variant 2, header is skipped"
    else:
        print "Variant 1, no header"
    FileReader("whatever.csv", skip).readData()

$ python csv_skip_header_oo.py
Demo with made-up data
Variant 1, no header
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
$ python csv_skip_header_oo.py --skip
Demo with made-up data
Variant 2, header is skipped
{'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}

A script using real data would be:

$ cat csv_skip_header_oo.py
import csv

class FileReader:
    def __init__(self, filename):
        self.path = filename

    def is_arbitrary_text(self, fieldnames):
        # XXX replace with a test suitable for your actual data
        return "skipped" in fieldnames

    def read_data(self):
        with open(self.path, "rb") as f:
            reader = csv.DictReader(f)
            if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
                for _ in range(5):
                    next(reader, None)
                reader = csv.DictReader(f)
            for row in reader:
                print row

if __name__ == "__main__":
    import argparse
    parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
    parser.add_argument("file")
    args = parser.parse_args()

    FileReader(args.file).read_data()

$ cat skipped_header.csv 
skipped
1
2
3
4
5
field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6
7
8
9$python csv_skip_header_oo.py skipped_header.csv 
{'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
{'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}
$ cat no_header.csv 
field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9$python csv_skip_header_oo.py no_header.csv 
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
{'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}

Please have a look at the cleaned-up implementation of the read_data() 
method of this last example. As a result of the discussion on the bug 
tracker <http://bugs.python.org/issue20004> I am now convinced that you 
should use two `DictReader`s rather than hack internal attributes or broken 
properties.

See also <http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/> for naming conventions.



From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 03:27:10 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 00:27:10 -0800
Subject: Reading csv file
In-Reply-To: <l8uibv$t2k$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTwpiq=Z6tswub9vab2wxzzQycwyL2jNCgK2RTQuhGrrMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8p1f5$gk0$1@ger.gmane.org> <l8p3gj$3gb$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTw+Qt-g8+aDeMi2nDENsWDDVzW6AZBLJzcCJtvEKjrRZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8pa8t$mmi$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CA+FnnTy_EDipp_CTwq3ePa8KfgKOUF2YqyXo9DpReZGP8aS32g@mail.gmail.com>
 <l8uibv$t2k$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTx8i7_tmcTc8KfvriAQmN3yVGc+aym9tuqUPN0mDagosg@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Peter.
About OOP: company policy, can't help it.
They say it's easier to maintain and code.
But it works now.



On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 2:39 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> Igor Korot wrote:
>
>> Hi, Peter,
>> Thank you for the great suggestion.
>>
>> I tried to implement you code but failed.
>>
>> Here's what I have:
>>
>> class FileReader:
>>         def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
>>                 self.path = filename
>>                 self.isSkip = isSkip
>>
>>         @contextmanager
>>         def open(*args):
>
> Selfless OO? Not in Python.
>
>>                 from StringIO import StringIO
>>                 lines = range(10)
>>                 if self.isSkip:
>>                         lines[0] = "skipped"
>>                         lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
>>                 else:
>>                         lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
>>                 yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
>>
>>         def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
>>                 return "skipped" in fieldnames
>>
>>         def readData(self):
>>                 with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
>>                         reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>>                         if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>>                                 for _ in range(5):
>>                                         next(reader, None)
>>                                 reader._fieldnames = None
>
> Here you introduced another bug, ignoring my helpful comments.
>
>>>         reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
>>>                                   # fieldnames setter doesn't work
>>>         reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect
>
>>                         for row in reader:
>>                                 print row
>>
>> Unfortunately this does not work as "def open()" does not belong to my
>> class and if I comment the "@contextmanager" line
>> I will get an exception: "AttributeError: __exit__"
>>
>> Any idea what to do?
>
> Keeping comments is not an option? But please read and try to understand the
> comments before you excise them ;)
>
> As I mentioned in the comment to the open() function you are not supposed to
> use it as you have real data -- use Python's built-in open() function.
> Anyway, if you insist on doing everything the OO-way, at least add a self in
> all the right places and don't introduce bugs that could be avoided with
> copy-and-paste.
>
> A working script with mock data and following the OO fashion would be:
>
> $ cat csv_skip_header_oo.py
> import csv
> from contextlib import contextmanager
>
> class FileReader:
>     def __init__(self, filename, isSkip):
>         self.path = filename
>         self.isSkip = isSkip
>
>     @contextmanager
>     def open(self, *args):
>         from StringIO import StringIO
>         lines = range(10)
>         if self.isSkip:
>             lines[0] = "skipped"
>             lines[6] = "field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6"
>         else:
>             lines[0] = "field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1"
>         yield StringIO("\r\n".join(map(str, lines)))
>
>     def is_arbitrary_text(self,fieldnames):
>         return "skipped" in fieldnames
>
>     def readData(self):
>         with self.open(self.path, "r") as f:
>             reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>             if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>                 for _ in range(5):
>                     next(reader, None)
>
>                 reader._fieldnames = None # underscore necessary,
>                                           # fieldnames setter doesn't work
>                 reader.fieldnames # used for its side-effect
>
>             for row in reader:
>                 print row
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     import sys
>     print "Demo with made-up data"
>     skip = len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == "--skip"
>     if skip:
>         print "Variant 2, header is skipped"
>     else:
>         print "Variant 1, no header"
>     FileReader("whatever.csv", skip).readData()
>
> $ python csv_skip_header_oo.py
> Demo with made-up data
> Variant 1, no header
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
> $ python csv_skip_header_oo.py --skip
> Demo with made-up data
> Variant 2, header is skipped
> {'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}
>
> A script using real data would be:
>
> $ cat csv_skip_header_oo.py
> import csv
>
> class FileReader:
>     def __init__(self, filename):
>         self.path = filename
>
>     def is_arbitrary_text(self, fieldnames):
>         # XXX replace with a test suitable for your actual data
>         return "skipped" in fieldnames
>
>     def read_data(self):
>         with open(self.path, "rb") as f:
>             reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>             if self.is_arbitrary_text(reader.fieldnames):
>                 for _ in range(5):
>                     next(reader, None)
>                 reader = csv.DictReader(f)
>             for row in reader:
>                 print row
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     import argparse
>     parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
>     parser.add_argument("file")
>     args = parser.parse_args()
>
>     FileReader(args.file).read_data()
>
> $ cat skipped_header.csv
> skipped
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> field1-from-line6,field2-from-line6
> 7
> 8
> 9$python csv_skip_header_oo.py skipped_header.csv
> {'field1-from-line6': '7', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '8', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> {'field1-from-line6': '9', 'field2-from-line6': None}
> $ cat no_header.csv
> field1-from-line1,field2-from-line1
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9$python csv_skip_header_oo.py no_header.csv
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '1'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '2'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '3'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '4'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '5'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '6'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '7'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '8'}
> {'field2-from-line1': None, 'field1-from-line1': '9'}
>
> Please have a look at the cleaned-up implementation of the read_data()
> method of this last example. As a result of the discussion on the bug
> tracker <http://bugs.python.org/issue20004> I am now convinced that you
> should use two `DictReader`s rather than hack internal attributes or broken
> properties.
>
> See also <http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/> for naming conventions.
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de  Tue Dec 17 03:30:23 2013
From: Bernd.Nawothnig at t-online.de (Bernd Nawothnig)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:30:23 +0100
Subject: Reading csv file
References: <mailman.4260.1387257643.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <vle5oa-v1f.ln1@bernd.nawothnig.dialin.t-online.de>

On 2013-12-17, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> Is there a better way to do that:
>
> def Read_CSV_File(filename):
>       file = open(filename, "r")
>       reader = csv.DictReader(file)
>       line = 1
>       for row in reader:
>           if line < 6:
>              reader.next()
>              line++
> # process the CSV

#v+
def Read_CSV_File(filename):
    with open(filename) as f:
        for line,row in enumerate(csv.DictReader(f)):
            if line >= 6:
                # process the CSV
#v-




Bernd

-- 
no time toulouse


From robin at reportlab.com  Tue Dec 17 08:51:20 2013
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:51:20 +0000
Subject: patch for making distutils cross compile on win32
Message-ID: <52B056D8.8030301@chamonix.reportlab.co.uk>

I have struggled to get Python-3.3.3 distutils to cross compile win-amd64 on 
win32. For the specific command (bdist_wininst) I am using the patch below seems 
to fix things so I can build amd64 binaries on win32. The code seems a bit 
schizophrenic about whether this is supposed to work, but without the patch it 
certainly doesn't.

*** \python33\lib\distutils\command\bdist_wininst.py    Wed Aug 01 10:05:14 2012
--- distutils\command\bdist_wininst.py  Tue Dec 17 13:14:02 2013
***************
*** 72,88 ****


       def finalize_options(self):
-         self.set_undefined_options('bdist', ('skip_build', 'skip_build'))
-
           if self.bdist_dir is None:
!             if self.skip_build and self.plat_name:
                   # If build is skipped and plat_name is overridden, bdist will
                   # not see the correct 'plat_name' - so set that up manually.
!                 bdist = self.distribution.get_command_obj('bdist')
!                 bdist.plat_name = self.plat_name
                   # next the command will be initialized using that name
               bdist_base = self.get_finalized_command('bdist').bdist_base
               self.bdist_dir = os.path.join(bdist_base, 'wininst')

           if not self.target_version:
               self.target_version = ""
--- 72,89 ----


       def finalize_options(self):
           if self.bdist_dir is None:
!             if self.plat_name:
                   # If build is skipped and plat_name is overridden, bdist will
                   # not see the correct 'plat_name' - so set that up manually.
!                 self.distribution.get_command_obj('build').plat_name = 
self.plat_name
!                 self.distribution.get_command_obj('build_py').plat_name = 
self.plat_name
!                 self.distribution.get_command_obj('build_ext').plat_name = 
self.plat_name
!                 self.distribution.get_command_obj('bdist').plat_name = 
self.plat_name
                   # next the command will be initialized using that name
               bdist_base = self.get_finalized_command('bdist').bdist_base
               self.bdist_dir = os.path.join(bdist_base, 'wininst')
+         self.set_undefined_options('bdist', ('skip_build', 'skip_build'))

           if not self.target_version:
               self.target_version = ""
*** \python33\lib\distutils\command\build_ext.py        Sun Oct 27 17:02:50 2013
--- distutils\command\build_ext.py      Tue Dec 17 12:48:51 2013
***************
*** 218,224 ****
                   new_lib = os.path.join(sys.exec_prefix, 'PCbuild')
                   if suffix:
                       new_lib = os.path.join(new_lib, suffix)
!                 self.library_dirs.append(new_lib)

               elif MSVC_VERSION == 8:
                   self.library_dirs.append(os.path.join(sys.exec_prefix,
--- 218,226 ----
                   new_lib = os.path.join(sys.exec_prefix, 'PCbuild')
                   if suffix:
                       new_lib = os.path.join(new_lib, suffix)
!                     self.library_dirs.insert(0,new_lib)
!                 else:
!                     self.library_dirs.append(new_lib)

               elif MSVC_VERSION == 8:
                   self.library_dirs.append(os.path.join(sys.exec_prefix,
-- 
Robin Becker



From burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr  Tue Dec 17 09:07:04 2013
From: burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr (Burak Arslan)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 16:07:04 +0200
Subject: Bootstrapping a test environment
Message-ID: <52B05A88.5080001@arskom.com.tr>

Hello list,

I decided to set up a portable Jenkins environment for an open source
project I'm working on.

After a couple of hours of tinkering, I ended up with this:

https://github.com/arskom/spyne/blob/05f7a08489e6dc04a3b5659eb325390bea13b2ff/run_tests.sh
(it should have been a Makefile)

This worked just fine.

Next, I wanted to integrate other Python implementations to this setup,
but none really worked so far. Jython-2.7-beta installs fine but seems
to have problems fetching stuff from the internet. I couldn't get
IronPython to compile under mono at all. I couldn't look at PyPy deeply
but resource requirements for building it seem scary...

Here's the latest version of that script:
https://github.com/arskom/spyne/blob/master/run_tests.sh

Note that there's nothing project-specific there except the --source and
--omit parameters to coverage.

Here's the script in action: https://spyne.ci.cloudbees.com/. Btw, Kudos
to cool folks at cloudbees for supporting FOSS, It's been rock solid so
far. They got unlimited parallel executors, no less :)

So, could people who've done similar things share their experience? How
do you suggest I should proceed here? Do you have a working ipy/mono
version combination that works? Is there a similar build script for PyPy
somewhere?

Pull requests are very much welcome :)

Best regards,
Burak



From tshepard at rcsreg.com  Tue Dec 17 11:45:28 2013
From: tshepard at rcsreg.com (Tobiah)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:45:28 -0800
Subject: Python and MIDI
Message-ID: <52B07FA8.4060407@tobiah.org>

Is there a module out there that would let
me send a predetermined list of midi messages
to a MIDI device in such a way that the timing
would be precise enough for music?

Thanks,

Tobiah


From davea at davea.name  Tue Dec 17 18:39:55 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 18:39:55 -0500
Subject: Python and MIDI
In-Reply-To: <52B07FA8.4060407@tobiah.org>
References: <52B07FA8.4060407@tobiah.org> <52B07FA8.4060407@tobiah.org>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.4368745331952295400@news.gmane.org>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 08:45:28 -0800, Tobiah <tshepard at rcsreg.com> 
wrote:
> Is there a module out there that would let
> me send a predetermined list of midi messages
> to a MIDI device in such a way that the timing
> would be precise enough for music?

Probably.  I haven't tried it but I'd look first at pygame.  Maybe 
first at:

http://www.pygame.org/wiki/MidiScheduler

-- 
DaveA



From sergey.y.fedorov at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 12:09:34 2013
From: sergey.y.fedorov at gmail.com (Sergey Fedorov)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 09:09:34 -0800
Subject: Multiprocessing pool with custom process class
Message-ID: <CAF3jMgdPj_jCXuNrGz57-RY6GPUsyS2vd59MfdbMdd5mni04bw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I have a web-service that needs to handle a bunch of work requests. Each
job involves IO call (DB, external web-services to fetch some data), so
part of the time is spent on the blocking IO call. On the other side, after
getting the data the job involves computational part (using numpy/pandas on
time series dataframes).
Service runs on multicore machine, so I want to use parallelism as much as
possible (especially considering python's GIL) and due to decent number of
IO, I want to use multiple threads inside each process so none of CPUs will
stale due to IO delays.

It'd be the best scenario to use pool of processes and thread pool (because
each worker will need to keep some state, like db connections). I already
have my own thread pool implementation, that uses some load-balancing and
fair-scheduling techniques that are specific to my problem domain.

I'm curious if there is any multiprocessing module that I missed and which
I can reuse. As it turned out, the on in the multiprocessing module doesn't
support custom Process class (if there were, I would be able to derive it
and add the functionality I need) (
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/740844/python-multiprocessing-pool-of-custom-processes).
Is there any alternative module that I can reuse?

If not, what's the best way to notify caller that the task finished its
execution (aka multiprocessing.Pool's apply() function behavior)? What
primitives are better to use for that purpose (in case I'll have to go with
my own implementation of multiprocessing pool)? Any reference to good
blog/educational resource will be highly appreciated!

If you believe that my solution is not optimal and have better/easier
solution (hope I specified my problem good enough), please share your
thoughts

Thanks in advance!
-------------- next part --------------
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From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 12:27:23 2013
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 17:27:23 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: ANN: Version 0.1.2 of sarge (a subprocess wrapper library) has been
 released.
Message-ID: <1387301243.56684.YahooMailBasic@web171302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>

Version 0.1.2 of Sarge, a cross-platform library which wraps the subprocess
module in the standard library, has been released.

What changed?
-------------

- Fixed issue #12: Prevented a hang which occurred when a redirection failed.

- Fixed issue #11: Added "+" to the characters allowed in parameters.

- Fixed issue #10: Removed a spurious debugger breakpoint.

- Fixed issue #9: Relative pathnames in redirections are now relative to the
  current working directory for the redirected process.

- Added the ability to pass objects with "fileno()" methods as values
  to the "input" argument of "run()", and a "Feeder" class which
  facilitates passing data to child processes dynamically over time (rather
  than just an initial string, byte-string or file).

- Added functionality under Windows to use PATH, PATHEXT and the
  registry to find appropriate commands. This can e.g. convert a
  command 'foo bar', if 'foo.py' is a Python script in the
  c:\Tools directory which is on the path,  to the equivalent
  'c:\Python26\Python.exe c:\Tools\foo.py bar'. This is done internally
  when a command is parsed, before it is passed to subprocess.

- Fixed issue #7: Corrected handling of whitespace and redirections.

- Fixed issue #8: Added a missing import.

- Added Travis integration.

- Added encoding parameter to the "Capture" initializer.

- Fixed issue #6: addressed bugs in Capture logic so that iterating over
  captures is closer to subprocess behaviour.

- Tests added to cover added functionality and reported issues.

- Numerous documentation updates.

What does Sarge do?
-------------------

Sarge tries to make interfacing with external programs from your
Python applications easier than just using subprocess alone.

Sarge offers the following features:

* A simple way to run command lines which allows a rich subset of Bash-
style shell command syntax, but parsed and run by sarge so that you
can run on Windows without cygwin (subject to having those commands
available):

    >>> from sarge import capture_stdout
    >>> p = capture_stdout('echo foo | cat; echo bar')
    >>> for line in p.stdout: print(repr(line))
    ...
    'foo\n'
    'bar\n'

* The ability to format shell commands with placeholders, such that
  variables are quoted to prevent shell injection attacks.

* The ability to capture output streams without requiring you to
  program your own threads. You just use a Capture object and then you
  can read from it as and when you want.

* The ability to look for patterns in captured output and to interact
  accordingly with the child process.

Advantages over subprocess
---------------------------

Sarge offers the following benefits compared to using subprocess:

* The API is very simple.

* It's easier to use command pipelines - using subprocess out of the
box often leads to deadlocks because pipe buffers get filled up.

* It would be nice to use Bash-style pipe syntax on Windows, but
Windows shells don't support some of the syntax which is useful, like
&&, ||, |& and so on. Sarge gives you that functionality on Windows,
without cygwin.

* Sometimes, subprocess.Popen.communicate() is not flexible enough for
one's needs - for example, when one needs to process output a line at
a time without buffering the entire output in memory.

* It's desirable to avoid shell injection problems by having the
ability to quote command arguments safely.

* subprocess allows you to let stderr be the same as stdout, but not
the other way around - and sometimes, you need to do that.

Python version and platform compatibility
-----------------------------------------

Sarge is intended to be used on any Python version >= 2.6 and is
tested on Python versions 2.6, 2.7, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3 on Linux,
Windows, and Mac OS X (not all versions are tested on all platforms,
but sarge is expected to work correctly on all these versions on all
these platforms).

Finding out more
----------------

You can read the documentation at

http://sarge.readthedocs.org/

There's a lot more information, with examples, than I can put into
this post.

You can install Sarge using "pip install sarge" to try it out. The
project is hosted on BitBucket at

https://bitbucket.org/vinay.sajip/sarge/

And you can leave feedback on the issue tracker there.

I hope you find Sarge useful!

Regards,

Vinay Sajip



From jason.mellone at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 15:06:54 2013
From: jason.mellone at gmail.com (Jason Mellone)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:06:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDFMiner install question
Message-ID: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>

Hello,

I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/

I am now trying to use pdfminer.

I have python here:
C:\USERS\Python27

using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.

when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:

>>> setup.py install
  File "<stdin>", line 1
    setup.py install
                   ^

i have no idea why, any input?

thanks!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 15:27:50 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:27:50 +0000
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8qc3t$qhd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
>
> I am now trying to use pdfminer.
>
> I have python here:
> C:\USERS\Python27
>
> using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
>
> when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:
>
>>>> setup.py install
>    File "<stdin>", line 1
>      setup.py install
>                     ^
>
> i have no idea why, any input?
>
> thanks!
>

The "import os" tells me that you're running setup.py from a Python 
prompt, you should be running it from a Windows command prompt.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec 17 15:32:56 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:32:56 +0000
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B0B4F8.30109@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
>
> I am now trying to use pdfminer.
>
> I have python here:
> C:\USERS\Python27
>
> using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
>
> when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:
>
>>>> setup.py install
>    File "<stdin>", line 1
>      setup.py install
>                     ^
>
> i have no idea why, any input?
>
> thanks!
>
Do you really have the ">>>" prompt? If yes, then you're asking Python
to run a console (OS) command.

You should be running "setup.py install" in a console ("Command
Prompt") window, something like:

cd C:\users\python\pdfminer-master
C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe \setup.py install



From jason.mellone at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 15:53:24 2013
From: jason.mellone at gmail.com (Jason Mellone)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:53:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:32:56 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
> On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
> 
> > Hello,
> 
> >
> 
> > I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
> 
> >
> 
> > I am now trying to use pdfminer.
> 
> >
> 
> > I have python here:
> 
> > C:\USERS\Python27
> 
> >
> 
> > using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
> 
> >
> 
> > when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:
> 
> >
> 
> >>>> setup.py install
> 
> >    File "<stdin>", line 1
> 
> >      setup.py install
> 
> >                     ^
> 
> >
> 
> > i have no idea why, any input?
> 
> >
> 
> > thanks!
> 
> >
> 
> Do you really have the ">>>" prompt? If yes, then you're asking Python
> 
> to run a console (OS) command.
> 
> 
> 
> You should be running "setup.py install" in a console ("Command
> 
> Prompt") window, something like:
> 
> 
> 
> cd C:\users\python\pdfminer-master
> 
> C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe \setup.py install

ok makes sense.

i am running now from command line and get the following:

P:\>C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe C:\users\Python27\pdfminer-master\setup.py inst
all
running install
running build
running build_py
error: package directory 'pdfminer' does not exist

P:\>





From jason.mellone at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 15:59:22 2013
From: jason.mellone at gmail.com (Jason Mellone)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 12:59:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:53:24 PM UTC-5, Jason Mellone wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:32:56 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
> 
> > On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Hello,
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I am now trying to use pdfminer.
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > I have python here:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > C:\USERS\Python27
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > >>>> setup.py install
> 
> > 
> 
> > >    File "<stdin>", line 1
> 
> > 
> 
> > >      setup.py install
> 
> > 
> 
> > >                     ^
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > i have no idea why, any input?
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > > thanks!
> 
> > 
> 
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> > Do you really have the ">>>" prompt? If yes, then you're asking Python
> 
> > 
> 
> > to run a console (OS) command.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > You should be running "setup.py install" in a console ("Command
> 
> > 
> 
> > Prompt") window, something like:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > cd C:\users\python\pdfminer-master
> 
> > 
> 
> > C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe \setup.py install
> 
> 
> 
> ok makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> i am running now from command line and get the following:
> 
> 
> 
> P:\>C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe C:\users\Python27\pdfminer-master\setup.py inst
> 
> all
> 
> running install
> 
> running build
> 
> running build_py
> 
> error: package directory 'pdfminer' does not exist
> 
> 
> 
> P:\>

also this is my dir:
P:\>dir C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master
 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is B825-02BA

 Directory of C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master

17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          .
17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          ..
17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          cmaprsrc
17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          docs
26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,723 Makefile
26/11/2013  04:35 AM               111 MANIFEST.in
17/12/2013  03:49 PM    <DIR>          pdfminer
26/11/2013  04:35 AM             5,311 README.md
17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          samples
26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,384 setup.py
17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          tools
               4 File(s)          8,529 bytes
               7 Dir(s)  26,006,282,240 bytes free

P:\>


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 17:03:37 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:03:37 +0000
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
 <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8qhnh$r95$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 17/12/2013 20:59, Jason Mellone wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:53:24 PM UTC-5, Jason Mellone wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:32:56 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
>>
>>> On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> Hello,
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> I am now trying to use pdfminer.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> I have python here:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> C:\USERS\Python27
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" i get the following issue:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>>> setup.py install
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>     File "<stdin>", line 1
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>       setup.py install
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>                      ^
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> i have no idea why, any input?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> thanks!
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Do you really have the ">>>" prompt? If yes, then you're asking Python
>>
>>>
>>
>>> to run a console (OS) command.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> You should be running "setup.py install" in a console ("Command
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Prompt") window, something like:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> cd C:\users\python\pdfminer-master
>>
>>>
>>
>>> C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe \setup.py install
>>
>>
>>
>> ok makes sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> i am running now from command line and get the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> P:\>C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe C:\users\Python27\pdfminer-master\setup.py inst
>>
>> all
>>
>> running install
>>
>> running build
>>
>> running build_py
>>
>> error: package directory 'pdfminer' does not exist
>>
>>
>>
>> P:\>
>
> also this is my dir:
> P:\>dir C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master
>   Volume in drive C has no label.
>   Volume Serial Number is B825-02BA
>
>   Directory of C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master
>
> 17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          .
> 17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          ..
> 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          cmaprsrc
> 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          docs
> 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,723 Makefile
> 26/11/2013  04:35 AM               111 MANIFEST.in
> 17/12/2013  03:49 PM    <DIR>          pdfminer
> 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             5,311 README.md
> 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          samples
> 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,384 setup.py
> 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          tools
>                 4 File(s)          8,529 bytes
>                 7 Dir(s)  26,006,282,240 bytes free
>
> P:\>
>

Hi, glad to see you're making some progress :)  You're likely to get 
more offers of assistance if you read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Dec 17 18:30:16 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:30:16 +0000
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
 <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B0DE88.7060301@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 17/12/2013 20:59, Jason Mellone wrote:> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 
3:53:24 PM UTC-5, Jason Mellone wrote:
 >> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 3:32:56 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
 >>> On 17/12/2013 20:06, Jason Mellone wrote:
 >>>> Hello,
 >>>>
 >>>> I have python up and running using the exact setup as recommended 
by http://learnpythonthehardway.org/
 >>>>
 >>>> I am now trying to use pdfminer.
 >>>>
 >>>> I have python here:
 >>>> C:\USERS\Python27
 >>>>
 >>>> using "import os", i am able to cwd to C:\users\python where i 
have C:\users\python\pdfminer-master\.
 >>>>
 >>>> when i navigate to the child directory and run "setup.py install" 
i get the following issue:
 >>>>
 >>>>>>> setup.py install
 >>>>     File "<stdin>", line 1
 >>>>       setup.py install
 >>>>                      ^
 >>>>
 >>>> i have no idea why, any input?
 >>>>
 >>>> thanks!
 >>>>
 >>> Do you really have the ">>>" prompt? If yes, then you're asking Python
 >>> to run a console (OS) command.
 >>>
 >>> You should be running "setup.py install" in a console ("Command
 >>> Prompt") window, something like:
 >>>
 >>> cd C:\users\python\pdfminer-master
 >>> C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe \setup.py install
 >>
 >> ok makes sense.
 >>
 >> i am running now from command line and get the following:
 >>
 >> P:\>C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe 
C:\users\Python27\pdfminer-master\setup.py inst
 >> all
 >> running install
 >> running build
 >> running build_py
 >> error: package directory 'pdfminer' does not exist
 >>
 >> P:\>
 >
 > also this is my dir:
 > P:\>dir C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master
 >   Volume in drive C has no label.
 >   Volume Serial Number is B825-02BA
 >
 >   Directory of C:\users\python27\pdfminer-master
 >
 > 17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          .
 > 17/12/2013  02:55 PM    <DIR>          ..
 > 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          cmaprsrc
 > 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          docs
 > 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,723 Makefile
 > 26/11/2013  04:35 AM               111 MANIFEST.in
 > 17/12/2013  03:49 PM    <DIR>          pdfminer
 > 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             5,311 README.md
 > 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          samples
 > 26/11/2013  04:35 AM             1,384 setup.py
 > 17/12/2013  02:48 PM    <DIR>          tools
 >                 4 File(s)          8,529 bytes
 >                 7 Dir(s)  26,006,282,240 bytes free
 >
 > P:\>
 >
The prompt shows that the current directory is P:\.

On Windows, each drive has its own current directory, so you have to
set the default drive too.

I think this should do it:

C:
cd C:\users\Python27\pdfminer-master
C:\USERS\Python27\python.exe setup.py inst


From jason.mellone at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 14:36:49 2013
From: jason.mellone at gmail.com (Jason Mellone)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:36:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4313.1387323018.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
 <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4313.1387323018.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5460059c-c805-40e3-bd3c-ac2ca677f0f7@googlegroups.com>

MRAB: Thank you your exact solution worked perfectly.

Now I am trying to run some code from (http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/python/pdfminer/programming.html) under basic usage.

If I try to run 
<code>
from pdfminer.pdfparser import PDFParser
from pdfminer.pdfdocument import PDFDocument
from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFPage
from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
from pdfminer.pdfinterp import PDFResourceManager
from pdfminer.pdfinterp import PDFPageInterpreter
from pdfminer.pdfdevice import PDFDevice

# Open a PDF file.
fp = open('C:\\USERS\\Python27\\samples\\test.pdf', 'rb')
# Create a PDF parser object associated with the file object.
parser = PDFParser(fp)
# Create a PDF document object that stores the document structure.
document = PDFDocument(parser)

print "done"
</code>


I get the following error:
PS C:\USERS\Python27> .\python.exe .\MyTest.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File ".\MyTest.py", line 4, in <module>
    from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
ImportError: cannot import name PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed


If I run commenting out the import of "PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed" it runs without a problem. Quite odd.


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Thu Dec 19 16:18:39 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:18:39 +0000
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <5460059c-c805-40e3-bd3c-ac2ca677f0f7@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
 <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4313.1387323018.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5460059c-c805-40e3-bd3c-ac2ca677f0f7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B362AF.3000506@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 19/12/2013 19:36, Jason Mellone wrote:
> MRAB: Thank you your exact solution worked perfectly.
>
> Now I am trying to run some code from (http://www.unixuser.org/~euske/python/pdfminer/programming.html) under basic usage.
>
> If I try to run
> <code>
> from pdfminer.pdfparser import PDFParser
> from pdfminer.pdfdocument import PDFDocument
> from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFPage
> from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
> from pdfminer.pdfinterp import PDFResourceManager
> from pdfminer.pdfinterp import PDFPageInterpreter
> from pdfminer.pdfdevice import PDFDevice
>
> # Open a PDF file.
> fp = open('C:\\USERS\\Python27\\samples\\test.pdf', 'rb')
> # Create a PDF parser object associated with the file object.
> parser = PDFParser(fp)
> # Create a PDF document object that stores the document structure.
> document = PDFDocument(parser)
>
> print "done"
> </code>
>
>
> I get the following error:
> PS C:\USERS\Python27> .\python.exe .\MyTest.py
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File ".\MyTest.py", line 4, in <module>
>      from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
> ImportError: cannot import name PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
>
>
> If I run commenting out the import of "PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed" it runs without a problem. Quite odd.
>
A quick Google tokk me here:

     http://css.dzone.com/articles/pdf-reading

Its example contains:

     from pdfminer.pdfinterp import PDFResourceManager, 
PDFPageInterpreter, PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed

Note how it's importing PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed from a different
place.

Perhaps the author of the code you're looking at didn't test it. It
happens! :-)


From andipersti at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 04:00:52 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:00:52 +0100
Subject: PDFMiner install question
In-Reply-To: <5460059c-c805-40e3-bd3c-ac2ca677f0f7@googlegroups.com>
References: <0322a155-42ba-459b-8cac-fded7c12ba60@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4310.1387312378.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <89e3b06c-90d7-4cc5-8367-03c916a4dfcb@googlegroups.com>
 <472d91fe-2ddb-4a78-8a44-6b171f436903@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4313.1387323018.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5460059c-c805-40e3-bd3c-ac2ca677f0f7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131220100052.10e8ac2d@Hof>

Jason Mellone <jason.mellone at gmail.com> wrote:
>I get the following error:
>PS C:\USERS\Python27> .\python.exe .\MyTest.py
>Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File ".\MyTest.py", line 4, in <module>
>    from pdfminer.pdfpage import PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
>ImportError: cannot import name PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed
>
>
>If I run commenting out the import of "PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed" it
>runs without a problem. Quite odd.

According to the latest version on Github,
"PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed" was moved into the "PDFPage" class, but
the sample code in the docs was obviously not updated.

https://github.com/euske/pdfminer/blob/master/pdfminer/pdfpage.py

So just leave out that line and if you need that exception use
"PDFPage.PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed" instead of
"PDFTextExtractionNotAllowed".

Bye, Andreas


From ycui at outlook.com  Tue Dec 17 21:40:20 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 23:40:20 -0300
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
Message-ID: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>

Hi Pythoners,
I'm looking for a tool or framework in which I can do a slight modification to achieve the following task:
"Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their original configurations and push prepared initial configurations to them"
I did find some similar existing work such as exscript and trigger, however I was stuck in the following two problems :
1. telneting to a non-default port number (other than 23)2. handling of customized banner messages.
can you give some hints on this ?  Thanks in advance for your input.
Frank

 		 	   		  
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:27:55 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:27:55 +1100
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrfFoOZ_Z55WFA-tYwz_xyzgnKX974ysfz7zT7nWb+HtQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> "Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their original
> configurations and push prepared initial configurations to them"

>From the sound of your partial solutions, this is done over a TCP/IP
socket? I don't know how you'd go about authenticating yourself with
the router (unless the factory reset is done some other way, and the
telnet part is just to push the config, in which case you'd be using
the default credentials), but presumably you've worked that part out
already.

Python has a socket module which is probably what you want here. You
can connect on any port, read what comes back, and send whatever you
need. If the job's simple enough, you might even be able to just
connect, send a fixed blob of text, and then listen for errors in the
response... or even not, and just let the user try it afterwards.

http://docs.python.org/3/library/socket.html

Does that look like what you need?

ChrisA


From ycui at outlook.com  Tue Dec 17 22:13:26 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:13:26 -0300
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrfFoOZ_Z55WFA-tYwz_xyzgnKX974ysfz7zT7nWb+HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>,
 <CAPTjJmrfFoOZ_Z55WFA-tYwz_xyzgnKX974ysfz7zT7nWb+HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W446676E51D006F6A34AA98DADA0@phx.gbl>

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the advice! 
I'm aware of this module, the problem is that this is quite a low level module and I would have quite a lot to re-invent specific to telneting to a cisco router.
Thanks!

> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:27:55 +1100
> Subject: Re: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
> From: rosuav at gmail.com
> CC: python-list at python.org
> 
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:40 PM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> > "Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their original
> > configurations and push prepared initial configurations to them"
> 
> From the sound of your partial solutions, this is done over a TCP/IP
> socket? I don't know how you'd go about authenticating yourself with
> the router (unless the factory reset is done some other way, and the
> telnet part is just to push the config, in which case you'd be using
> the default credentials), but presumably you've worked that part out
> already.
> 
> Python has a socket module which is probably what you want here. You
> can connect on any port, read what comes back, and send whatever you
> need. If the job's simple enough, you might even be able to just
> connect, send a fixed blob of text, and then listen for errors in the
> response... or even not, and just let the user try it afterwards.
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/socket.html
> 
> Does that look like what you need?
> 
> ChrisA
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
 		 	   		  
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:47:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:47:11 +1100
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W446676E51D006F6A34AA98DADA0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>
 <CAPTjJmrfFoOZ_Z55WFA-tYwz_xyzgnKX974ysfz7zT7nWb+HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY176-W446676E51D006F6A34AA98DADA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrWksfMb9h7vGkZ8ErEF7mregND1=bZG8Kg0OgQjpLGxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the advice!
>
> I'm aware of this module, the problem is that this is quite a low level
> module and I would have quite a lot to re-invent specific to telneting to a
> cisco router.

Do you know what it is you'd have to be reinventing? TELNET itself is
just a TCP socket with some special handling of byte 0xFF, which quite
possibly won't even come up in what you're doing here. For the rest,
it's just a matter of sending and receiving text; is there something
complicated in the authentication system that you'd be needing to
recreate? Otherwise I think you'll find that it's simpler than you
expect.

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:59:31 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:59:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4321.1387336289.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4321.1387336289.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <92bbb9ee-6092-45e6-aca1-1baeef727b24@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:10:20 AM UTC+5:30, Frank Cui wrote:
> Hi Pythoners,
> I'm looking for a tool or framework in which I can do a slight modification to
> achieve the following task:
> "Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their original
> configurations and push prepared initial configurations to them"
> I did find some similar existing work such as exscript and trigger, however
> I was stuck in the following two problems :
> 1. telneting to a non-default port number (other than 23)
> 2. handling of customized banner messages.
> can you give some hints on this ? 

For the low level details (exscript/trigger) I dont know.
However for the higher level organization issues you may want to look at

1. cuisine
http://stackful-dev.com/cuisine-the-lightweight-chefpuppet-alternative

which uses

2. fabric http://docs.fabfile.org/en/1.8/

And maybe
3. tox http://tox.readthedocs.org/en/latest/


From ycui at outlook.com  Tue Dec 17 22:59:51 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:59:51 -0300
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <92bbb9ee-6092-45e6-aca1-1baeef727b24@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4321.1387336289.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 <92bbb9ee-6092-45e6-aca1-1baeef727b24@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W393C890A76229F1CEE9B68DADA0@phx.gbl>

Thank you guys for the input, I have determined to go with the plain old "expect" as it seems most easy to go with for this task.
Frank

> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:59:31 -0800
> Subject: Re: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
> From: rustompmody at gmail.com
> To: python-list at python.org
> 
> On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:10:20 AM UTC+5:30, Frank Cui wrote:
> > Hi Pythoners,
> > I'm looking for a tool or framework in which I can do a slight modification to
> > achieve the following task:
> > "Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their original
> > configurations and push prepared initial configurations to them"
> > I did find some similar existing work such as exscript and trigger, however
> > I was stuck in the following two problems :
> > 1. telneting to a non-default port number (other than 23)
> > 2. handling of customized banner messages.
> > can you give some hints on this ? 
> 
> For the low level details (exscript/trigger) I dont know.
> However for the higher level organization issues you may want to look at
> 
> 1. cuisine
> http://stackful-dev.com/cuisine-the-lightweight-chefpuppet-alternative
> 
> which uses
> 
> 2. fabric http://docs.fabfile.org/en/1.8/
> 
> And maybe
> 3. tox http://tox.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
 		 	   		  
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From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Wed Dec 18 07:48:04 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:48:04 +0100 (CET)
Subject: seeking a framework to automate router configurations
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W28FCEC569DDE62E02C8CC4DADA0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <377941354.1651575.1387370884221.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----

> Hi Pythoners,

> I'm looking for a tool or framework in which I can do a slight
> modification to achieve the following task:

> "Asynchronously reset a large number of cisco routers back to their
> original configurations and push prepared initial configurations to
> them"

> I did find some similar existing work such as exscript and trigger,
> however I was stuck in the following two problems :

> 1. telneting to a non-default port number (other than 23)
> 2. handling of customized banner messages.

> can you give some hints on this ? Thanks in advance for your input.

> Frank

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Hi, 

If you can ssh on your routers, you may want to look at fabric, a python module that do ssh stuff. You only need to figure out how to reset and reconfigure the router from the shell prompt. 

JM 


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
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From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:22:11 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 19:22:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Logger module in python
Message-ID: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
  I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?

I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to file. But not sure about python.

Can anybody help me in this regard?

Regards
Pradeep


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 22:27:28 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:27:28 +0000
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
References: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 03:22, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>    I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?
>
> I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to file. But not sure about python.
>
> Can anybody help me in this regard?
>
> Regards
> Pradeep
>

http://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From paul at mad-scientist.net  Tue Dec 17 22:46:06 2013
From: paul at mad-scientist.net (Paul Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:46:06 -0500
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
 <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <1387338366.4269.75.camel@homebase>

On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 03:27 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 18/12/2013 03:22, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I
> can import in my program to log the objects to a file?
> >
> > I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the
> objects to file. But not sure about python.
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html

That's not what the OP wants.

Pradeep, if you want to dump data for debugging take a look at the
pprint module; for example:

http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/pprint.html

If you want to store Python objects in files and read them later, most
people seem to use pickle for that:

http://docs.python.org/3.3/library/pickle.html

Others translate into another format.

See this SO question for some other suggestions:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2540567/is-there-a-python-equivalent-to-perls-datadumper




From cs at zip.com.au  Tue Dec 17 22:36:21 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:36:21 +1100
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131218033621.GA19123@cskk.homeip.net>

On 18Dec2013 03:27, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/12/2013 03:22, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
> >   I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?
> >I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to file. But not sure about python.
> >Can anybody help me in this regard?
> 
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html

No, Mark, no.

The pickle and pickletools modules sound like what he wants.

Cheers,
-- 

Tomkin Coleman (tcolema at nv7.uswnvg.com) wrote:
| Well, yes, get the bike but BEWARE!!
| At first, you will just want to get, like, a 250 Rebel, just for commuting
| and maybe a little fun, but you will wind up buying a 550, (just in case you
| want to tour), and then you will stop paying any attention to the theatre
| company you are working with and the graduate school you are attending, and
| then you will spend all your summers touring and riding around with your
| newfound biking buddies, and then you will find that you have got a real job
| just so you can buy the bike of your dreams and pretty soon you will find
| that your entire life has centered around your monster bike and you can only
| date women who love bikes and hang with buddies who love bikes and work at a
| job that supports your lifestyle and you will be incredibly happy, but always
| very greasy.
Shhhh!  The meaning of life is supposed to be a SECRET!   :-)
- Bob Larson..DoD#1711..bobl at honshu.ho.att.com..1994 Suzuki RF600R


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 17 23:03:54 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 04:03:54 +0000
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <20131218033621.GA19123@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <l8r4mn$teh$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <20131218033621.GA19123@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <l8r6r1$dpd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 03:36, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 18Dec2013 03:27, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/12/2013 03:22, smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:
>>>    I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?
>>> I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to file. But not sure about python.
>>> Can anybody help me in this regard?
>>
>> http://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html
>
> No, Mark, no.
>
> The pickle and pickletools modules sound like what he wants.
>
> Cheers,
>

So I've already been told :) I really must get out of the habit of 
posting at 3:30 in the morning when absolutely shattered, it's more of a 
hindrance than a help :(

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 17 22:54:31 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:54:31 -0500
Subject: Logger module in python
References: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-C4C5F7.22543117122013@news.panix.com>

In article <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175 at googlegroups.com>,
 smilesonisamal at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi,
>   I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can 
>   import in my program to log the objects to a file?
> 
> I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to 
> file. But not sure about python.


You're talking about what's known as serializing an object.  Taking the 
in-memory representation and turning it into something that can be 
written into a network connection or into a file, then read back in, and 
turned back into an in-memory object.

The standard way to do this in Python is pickle 
(http://docs.python.org/2/library/pickle.html).  Depending on the type 
of data you have, you might want to use JSON encoding instead 
(http://docs.python.org/2/library/json.html), but pickle is probably the 
most similar to Data::Dumper.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 23:32:18 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:32:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
References: <fabe3b07-3d2f-48f2-9e56-2fdebff39175@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <51304f70-0c10-4de6-bce8-375aced049c4@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:52:11 AM UTC+5:30, smileso... at gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>   I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?

> I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the objects to file. But not sure about python.

Assuming you are looking for a serialization format:
If efficiency, easily-at-hand, standard are important then
pickle better than json better than yaml

If however readability of the output (as the word 'log' suggests) is desired
its the other way round: yaml is the most readable, pickle is utterly unreadable


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Wed Dec 18 04:44:16 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:44:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Logger module in python
In-Reply-To: <51304f70-0c10-4de6-bce8-375aced049c4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1334453668.1625096.1387359856735.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

---- Original Message -----
> On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:52:11 AM UTC+5:30,
> smileso... at gmail.com wrote:
> > Hi,
> >   I am a newbie in python. I am looking for a existing module which
> >   I can import in my program to log the objects to a file?
> 
> > I know there is a module Data::Dumper in perl which dumps the
> > objects to file. But not sure about python.
> 
> Assuming you are looking for a serialization format:
> If efficiency, easily-at-hand, standard are important then
> pickle better than json better than yaml
> 
> If however readability of the output (as the word 'log' suggests) is
> desired
> its the other way round: yaml is the most readable, pickle is utterly
> unreadable
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

There's a (better) alternative to pickle: serpent.
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/serpent

I've been told it was a standard module in python 3, I'm not sure though.
Basically it's pickle without the security issue and a readable text format.

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Tue Dec 17 22:51:13 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 03:51:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Struggling for inspiration with lists
Message-ID: <l8r63h$fid$4@dont-email.me>

Hi

I have a list of data that presents as:

timestamp: value

Timestamps are used solely to determine the sequence of items in the list.

I want to find the longest repeated sequence of values in the list. 
Example, in the following list:

data = { 0: "d", 1: "x", 2: "y", 3: "t", 4: "d", 5: "y", 77: "g"' 78: 
"h", 79: "x", 80: "y", 206: "t", 210: "d", 211: "x" }

I would pull out the sequence x-y-t-d (starting at 1 and 79)

I need to keep the timestamp / data association because I need to 
generate output that identifies (a) the longest repeated sequence (b) how 
many elements in the longest repeated sequence (c) at what timestamps 
each occurrence started.

I'm not sure of the best way, programatically, to aproach this task, 
which means I'm unsure whether eg a list of tuples ( time, data ) or an 
OrderedDict keyed on the timestamp is the best starting point.

I can make a list of tuples using:

d = [ (k,v) for k,v in data ]

and with the list of tuples, I can do something like:

d.sort( key=lambda tup: tup[0] )

max_start_a = 0
max_start_b = 0
max_len = 0
i = 0

while i < len( d ):

  j = i + 1

  while j < len( d ):

    o = 0

    while j+o < len( d ) and d[i+o][1] == d[j+o][1]:

      o += 1

      if o > max_len:

        max_len = 0
        max_start_a = i
        max_start_b = j

    j += 1

  i += 1

print d[max_start_a][0], d[max_start_b][0], max_len

Is there a better way to do this?

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Tue Dec 17 23:50:36 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:50:36 -0600
Subject: Struggling for inspiration with lists
In-Reply-To: <l8r63h$fid$4@dont-email.me>
References: <l8r63h$fid$4@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <20131217225036.7664c4b3@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-18 03:51, Denis McMahon wrote:
> I need to keep the timestamp / data association because I need to 
> generate output that identifies (a) the longest repeated sequence
> (b) how many elements in the longest repeated sequence (c) at what
> timestamps each occurrence started.
> 
> I'm not sure of the best way, programatically, to aproach this
> task, which means I'm unsure whether eg a list of tuples ( time,
> data ) or an OrderedDict keyed on the timestamp is the best
> starting point.
[snip] 
> Is there a better way to do this?

You might have to define your criteria for "best".  Things that
might play into it:

- what happens if there's more than one "longest" sequence?

- can you specify a minimum length that you don't have to track? (a
  maximum sequence of length-1 might be uninteresting)

- how large can your input data grow to be?  If it's huge, you're
  looking at searching a problem space something like O(N^2) or
  possibly O(N log N) if you're lucky.  Which in turn can involve
  lots of memory consumption.

- do you just want to know what that sequence is, or do you want to
  know all the locations/offsets where it the longest sequence was
  found?

I've played with two simple versions, the first is naive, while the
second tries to use a little bit of smarts to eliminate possibilities
when you know you have at least one match of a certain length.  The
result of the function does allow for finding a plurality of longest
sequences, but my demo code just snags one with the max() function.
I leave the "find multiple maxes" as an exercise for the reader. :)

-tkc


def build1(d):
    sequences = {} # sequence -> [list of start offsets]
    for i in range(len(d)):
        for j in range(i+1, len(d)):
            key = tuple(value for timestamp, value in d[i:j])
            sequences.setdefault(key, []).append(i)
    return sequences
    
def build2(d):
    sequences = {} # sequence -> [list of start offsets]
    longest = 1
    for i in range(len(d)):
        for j in range(i+longest, len(d)):
            key = tuple(value for timestamp, value in d[i:j])
            if key in sequences:
                sequences[key].append(i)
                if len(sequences[key]) > longest:
                    longest = len(sequences[key])
                    print longest
            else:
                sequences[key] = [i]
    return sequences


data = {
    0: "d", 1: "x", 2: "y", 3: "t", 4: "d", 5: "y", 77: "g",
    78: "h", 79: "x", 80: "y", 206: "t", 210: "d", 211: "x",
    }
d = data.items()
d.sort()

for fn in (build1, build2):
    print fn.__name__
    sequences = fn(d)
    longest_key, offsets = max((
        pair
        for pair in sequences.iteritems()
        if len(pair[1]) > 1
        ), key=lambda (k,v): len(k))
    print "Longest sequence %r found at %s" % (
        longest_key,
        [d[i][0] for i in offsets],
        )
    for k,v in sequences.iteritems():
        if len(v) > 1:
            print "%s: %r" % (k,v)
    print '=' * 50





.


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Wed Dec 18 07:38:23 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:38:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Struggling for inspiration with lists
In-Reply-To: <l8r63h$fid$4@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <1445603716.1649741.1387370303170.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> Hi
> 
> I have a list of data that presents as:
> 
> timestamp: value
> 
> Timestamps are used solely to determine the sequence of items in the
> list.
> 
> I want to find the longest repeated sequence of values in the list.
> Example, in the following list:
> 
> data = { 0: "d", 1: "x", 2: "y", 3: "t", 4: "d", 5: "y", 77: "g"' 78:
> "h", 79: "x", 80: "y", 206: "t", 210: "d", 211: "x" }
> 
> I would pull out the sequence x-y-t-d (starting at 1 and 79)
> 
> I need to keep the timestamp / data association because I need to
> generate output that identifies (a) the longest repeated sequence (b)
> how
> many elements in the longest repeated sequence (c) at what timestamps
> each occurrence started.
> 
> I'm not sure of the best way, programatically, to aproach this task,
> which means I'm unsure whether eg a list of tuples ( time, data ) or
> an
> OrderedDict keyed on the timestamp is the best starting point.
> 
> I can make a list of tuples using:
> 
> d = [ (k,v) for k,v in data ]
> 
> and with the list of tuples, I can do something like:
> 
> d.sort( key=lambda tup: tup[0] )
> 
> max_start_a = 0
> max_start_b = 0
> max_len = 0
> i = 0
> 
> while i < len( d ):
> 
>   j = i + 1
> 
>   while j < len( d ):
> 
>     o = 0
> 
>     while j+o < len( d ) and d[i+o][1] == d[j+o][1]:
> 
>       o += 1
> 
>       if o > max_len:
> 
>         max_len = 0
>         max_start_a = i
>         max_start_b = j
> 
>     j += 1
> 
>   i += 1
> 
> print d[max_start_a][0], d[max_start_b][0], max_len
> 
> Is there a better way to do this?
> 
> --
> Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com

Hi,

Depends on what you're meaning by better.
If you mean quicker, it seems there is an algorithm in O(n). http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11090289/find-longest-repetitive-sequence-in-a-string
You'll need a little bit of work to move from dict / to string / to dict but that shouldn't be a problem.

If you didn't mean quicker, I have no idea. If your current code is working, I don't see how it would such wrong that you'd need to change it.

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From asmwarrior at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 01:35:52 2013
From: asmwarrior at gmail.com (asmwarrior)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:35:52 +0800
Subject: Windows+Python: Why is the first opened window not shown active?
Message-ID: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com>

Hello, Python community.

I have found a very strange problem about using the python scripts under Python Windows command line prompt, to reproduce this issue, you can simply do those steps:

 1. start a Python command line prompt(this is usually to hit the Start Menu->Python 2.7->Python(command line).
 2.

    type the following text, and hit Enter key.

    |import ctypes|

 3.

    type the following text, and hit Enter key.

    |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|

 4. You will see a message box opened, but this message box window is not activated.
 5. Use the mouse to click on the icon of the message box in task bar to activate the message box
 6. Close the message box
 7.

    type the text again in the Python prompt shell

    |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|

 8. Now, the message box is showed activated (the expected behavior) 

So, my question is, why the first message box(window) is not shown active? I originally find this issue when I run a Python pretty printer under GDB command line, because I want to use some python pretty printer to visual the data, like this GDB cv::Mat python object issue when debugging a c++ program <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16227166/gdb-cvmat-python-object-issue-when-debugging-a-c-program>, I need to show the OpenCV Image window immediately after I type the plot command.

But later I found that this is an issue related to Python itself.


Thanks.

Yuanhui Zhang

BTW: I post the same question in StackOverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20614249/windowspython-why-is-the-first-opened-window-not-shown-active


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From asmwarrior at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 03:34:21 2013
From: asmwarrior at gmail.com (asmwarrior)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:34:21 +0800
Subject: Windows+Python: Why is the first opened window not shown active?
In-Reply-To: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com>
References: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B15E0D.2020405@gmail.com>

On 2013-12-18 14:35, asmwarrior wrote:
> Hello, Python community.
>
> I have found a very strange problem about using the python scripts under Python Windows command line prompt, to reproduce this issue, you can simply do those steps:
>
>  1. start a Python command line prompt(this is usually to hit the Start Menu->Python 2.7->Python(command line).
> 2.
>
>     type the following text, and hit Enter key.
>
>     |import ctypes|
> 3.
>
>     type the following text, and hit Enter key.
>
>     |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|
>  4. You will see a message box opened, but this message box window is not activated.
>  5. Use the mouse to click on the icon of the message box in task bar to activate the message box
>  6. Close the message box
> 7.
>
>     type the text again in the Python prompt shell
>
>     |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|
>  8. Now, the message box is showed activated (the expected behavior) 
>
> So, my question is, why the first message box(window) is not shown active? I originally find this issue when I run a Python pretty printer under GDB command line, because I want to use some python pretty printer to visual the data, like this GDB cv::Mat python object issue when debugging a c++ program <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/16227166/gdb-cvmat-python-object-issue-when-debugging-a-c-program>, I need to show the OpenCV Image window immediately after I type the plot command.
>
> But later I found that this is an issue related to Python itself.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Yuanhui Zhang
>
> BTW: I post the same question in StackOverflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20614249/windowspython-why-is-the-first-opened-window-not-shown-active
>
>
FYI:

I get the an answer in stackoverflow in the above link which solve my problem. (http://stackoverflow.com/a/20651708/154911)

It looks like the Windows OS system block a console window to create/pop-up a window, so I need some opitons like:

MB_SETFOREGROUNDWINDOW <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms645505%28v=vs.85%29.aspx>

Thanks.

Yuanhui Zhang
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From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Wed Dec 18 04:05:42 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:05:42 +0000
Subject: Windows+Python: Why is the first opened window not shown active?
In-Reply-To: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com>
References: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B16566.6050302@timgolden.me.uk>

On 18/12/2013 06:35, asmwarrior wrote:
>  1. start a Python command line prompt(this is usually to hit the Start
>     Menu->Python 2.7->Python(command line).
>  2.
> 
>     type the following text, and hit Enter key.
> 
>     |import ctypes|
> 
>  3.
> 
>     type the following text, and hit Enter key.
> 
>     |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|
> 
>  4. You will see a message box opened, but this message box window is
>     not activated.
>  5. Use the mouse to click on the icon of the message box in task bar to
>     activate the message box
>  6. Close the message box
>  7.
> 
>     type the text again in the Python prompt shell
> 
>     |ctypes.windll.user32.MessageBoxA(0, "Your text", "Your title", 1)|
> 
>  8. Now, the message box is showed activated (the expected behavior) 


This isn't related to Python specifically: ctypes is just handing the
values you pass straight on to the underlying DLL (here: user32.dll).

If you check the MSDN page for the MessageBox function:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms645505(v=vs.85).aspx

you can see there's a MB_SETFOREGROUND flag with value 0x00010000L which
seems to do what you want.

Why the Message box is activated the second time when it isn't the
first, I have no idea. But it's Windows which is deciding what to do
there, not Python.

TJG


From asmwarrior at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 00:13:37 2013
From: asmwarrior at gmail.com (asmwarrior)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 13:13:37 +0800
Subject: Windows+Python: Why is the first opened window not shown active?
In-Reply-To: <52B16566.6050302@timgolden.me.uk>
References: <52B14248.2010303@gmail.com> <52B16566.6050302@timgolden.me.uk>
Message-ID: <52B28081.1040500@gmail.com>

On 2013-12-18 17:05, Tim Golden wrote:
> This isn't related to Python specifically: ctypes is just handing the
> values you pass straight on to the underlying DLL (here: user32.dll).
> 
> If you check the MSDN page for the MessageBox function:
> 
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms645505(v=vs.85).aspx
> 
> you can see there's a MB_SETFOREGROUND flag with value 0x00010000L which
> seems to do what you want.
> 
> Why the Message box is activated the second time when it isn't the
> first, I have no idea. But it's Windows which is deciding what to do
> there, not Python.
> 
> TJG
Thanks Tim for the reply, indeed this is not an issue in Python, it is related to Windows OS.

Yuanhui Zhang


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 03:35:04 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 00:35:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CAPTCHA HANDLING IN MECHANIZE
Message-ID: <1928c067-bce9-41c8-9375-b4c969c9d3ac@googlegroups.com>

HEY , I AM NEW TO THE PYTHON

STARTED WORKING ON MECHANIZE , WANT HELP THAT TO HOW TO FILL A FORM HAVING  CAPTCHA  FIELD AUTOMATIC 


PLEASE ANSWER 


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 03:53:09 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:53:09 +1100
Subject: CAPTCHA HANDLING IN MECHANIZE
In-Reply-To: <1928c067-bce9-41c8-9375-b4c969c9d3ac@googlegroups.com>
References: <1928c067-bce9-41c8-9375-b4c969c9d3ac@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpQ25FCig8ee6+qAhUaJYJ_=cx1cu52m=6vgnQVKUXWaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Jai <jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com> wrote:
> HEY , I AM NEW TO THE PYTHON
>
> STARTED WORKING ON MECHANIZE , WANT HELP THAT TO HOW TO FILL A FORM HAVING  CAPTCHA  FIELD AUTOMATIC
>
>
> PLEASE ANSWER

Not going to help you. The whole point of a CAPTCHA is to stop you
from doing this sort of thing. It's certainly possible to get past
them, but you can do it yourself - I don't intend to help you.

Plus, you're shouting. Please don't.

ChrisA


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:45:31 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:45:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CAPTCHA HANDLING IN MECHANIZE
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4339.1387357249.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <1928c067-bce9-41c8-9375-b4c969c9d3ac@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4339.1387357249.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d49d8d36-f26f-4e33-b0fc-827048e69365@googlegroups.com>

it will not happen in future 


From justhotshot at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 04:00:31 2013
From: justhotshot at gmail.com (justhotshot at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:00:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: C langauge recvmmsg() function in Python
Message-ID: <11b3f519-e0d6-40c3-a73d-aa673b2259ef@googlegroups.com>

Hi All,

Is there a C langauge recvmmsg() function (receive multiple messages on a socket) equivalent in python?
recvmmsg details url: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/recvmmsg.2.html

Thanks.


From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 18 09:49:19 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:49:19 -0500
Subject: C langauge recvmmsg() function in Python
References: <11b3f519-e0d6-40c3-a73d-aa673b2259ef@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-ACAEDF.09491818122013@news.panix.com>

In article <11b3f519-e0d6-40c3-a73d-aa673b2259ef at googlegroups.com>,
 justhotshot at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> Is there a C langauge recvmmsg() function (receive multiple messages on a 
> socket) equivalent in python?
> recvmmsg details url: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/recvmmsg.2.html

AFAIK, no such Python call exists.  Just do recv() in a loop.


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 04:37:31 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:37:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
Message-ID: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>

RIGHT NOW  NOW I AM WORKING WITH MECHANIZE MODULE . BUT UNABLE TO SUBMIT CAPTACHA AUTOMATICALLY . DO U HAVE ANY IDEA PLEASE SHARE WITH ME , 


ANY IDEA WILL BE APPRECIATES ON ANY M MODULE. 


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 11:38:00 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:38:00 +0000
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
In-Reply-To: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
References: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8sj10$2n6$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 09:37, Jai wrote:
> RIGHT NOW  NOW I AM WORKING WITH MECHANIZE MODULE . BUT UNABLE TO SUBMIT CAPTACHA AUTOMATICALLY . DO U HAVE ANY IDEA PLEASE SHARE WITH ME ,
>
>
> ANY IDEA WILL BE APPRECIATES ON ANY M MODULE.
>

Ditto the Chris Angelico answer to your earlier request.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 12:54:34 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:54:34 -0700
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
In-Reply-To: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
References: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B1E15A.8080908@gmail.com>

On 12/18/2013 02:37 AM, Jai wrote:
> <yelling>

All capital letters, at least in English, is considered to be angry
yelling.  As to you question, you won't find help with that here.
Please don't ask again.


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 14:56:10 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:56:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
References: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4362.1387384698.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l8sukp$pqv$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:38:00 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 18/12/2013 09:37, Jai wrote:

>> RIGHT NOW  NOW I AM WORKING WITH MECHANIZE MODULE . BUT UNABLE TO
>> SUBMIT CAPTACHA AUTOMATICALLY . DO U HAVE ANY IDEA PLEASE SHARE WITH ME

> Ditto the Chris Angelico answer to your earlier request.

+1

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:42:55 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:42:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4362.1387384698.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4362.1387384698.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <3b76fb8e-e5b0-4573-b824-3d782dc2e401@googlegroups.com>

sorry sir, it will not happen again in future.


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:43:39 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:43:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HOW TO HANDLE CAPTCHA WHILE PARSING A WEB SITE
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4367.1387389302.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3f5be140-4184-41be-a914-c2864558bed9@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4367.1387389302.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bdd51fcb-ade8-4376-ba52-8b9c2c5954f3@googlegroups.com>



sorry sir , it will not happen in future 


From techno206 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 07:20:07 2013
From: techno206 at gmail.com (techno206 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 04:20:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python - jquery datatables with mongodb(mongoengine)
Message-ID: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>



I am new to Python, MongoDB(mongoengine(ODM)) and the pyramid framework as a whole. I am currently working on a project using the above mentioned technologies and I want to use jQuery datatables(also new to this) I found a link on their site on how to use datatables with MongoDB, but it is in php and my translation skills aren't that good.

my question is:
Is it possible to use datatables using the above mentioned technologies, if yes, then how?

I have tried converting someone else's code that used SQLAlchemy with datatables, but I am stuck as I do not know how to change the function.

@view_config(
route_name='candidate.list.json',
renderer='json',
permission="admin"
)

def candidate_list_json(context, request):
    def format_output(vals):
        vals = list(vals)
        vals[-1] = """<div class="btn-group"><a href='%s' class=btn>View</a><a href='%s' class=btn>Edit</a></div>""" % (
            request.route_url('candidates', id_number=vals[-1], traverse=()),
            request.route_url('candidates', id_number=vals[-1], traverse="edit")
        )
        vals[0] = "<a href='%s'>%s</a>" % (request.route_url('candidates', id_number=vals[0], traverse=()), vals[0])
        return vals
    if has_permission('admin', context, request):
        basefilt = None                  # I changed Up to here
    return handle_datatable(
        request,
        Agents.id,
        [Agents.db_agent_id, Agents.db_name, Agents.id_number, Agents.mobile_number, OrgUnits.name, Agents.db_agent_id],
        lambda term: or_(Agents.db_agent_name.like('%'+term+'%'), OrgUnits.name.like('%'+term+'%'), Agents.mobile_number.like('%'+term+'%'), Agents.id_number.like('%'+term+'%'), ),
        join=[Agents.ou],
        formatfunc=format_output,
        base_filt=basefilt
    )

handle_datatable is a method:

def handle_datatable(request, idcol, cols, filtfunc, options=None, cache='short_term', formatfunc=None, displaylength=90, join=None, base_filt=None, outerjoin=None, groupby=None, no_paginate=False, ordercols=None, orderby=None, printquery=False, nocount=False):
s = sqlahelper.get_session()
if groupby is not None and type(groupby) != list and type(groupby) != tuple:
    groupby = [groupby]

def attachfilt(q, filt, nogroup=False):
    if filt:
        q = q.filter(and_(*filt))
    if join:
        q = q.join(*join)
    if outerjoin:
        q = q.outerjoin(*outerjoin)
    if options:
        q = q.options(*options)
    if groupby and not nogroup:
        for g in groupby:
            q = q.group_by(g)
    return q

@cache_region('short_term')
def perform_count(filt, idcol, term):
    if not nocount:
        return attachfilt(s.query(idcol), filt, nogroup=False).count()
    else:
        return 0

#@cache_region('short_term', 'handle_search')
def perform_search(filt, cols, iStart, iLength, order_cols):
    q = attachfilt(s.query(*cols), filt)
    if order_cols:
        q = q.order_by(*order_cols)

    if printquery:
        print q
    if no_paginate:
        rows = q.all()
    else:
        rows = q[iStart:iStart+iLength]
    if callable(formatfunc):
        data = [formatfunc(row[:]) for row in rows]
    else:
        data = [row[:] for row in rows]
    return data

if not callable(filtfunc):
    raise Exception("Filter Function is not callable")
if not cols:
    raise Exception("Please provide columns to search")

if not no_paginate:
    iStart = int(str(request.params.get("iDisplayStart", 0)))
    iLength = int(str(request.params.get("iDisplayLength", displaylength)))
else:
    iStart = 0
    iLength = 0

if not ordercols:
    ordercols = cols

if orderby:
    order_cols = orderby
else:
    order_cols = []
if request.params.get("iSortCol_0", None):
    iSortingCols = int(str(request.params.get('iSortingCols', 0)))
    for k in range(0, iSortingCols):
        iSortCol = int(str(request.params.get('iSortCol_%s' % k, 0)))
        sSortDir = str(request.params.get('sSortDir_%s' % k, 0))
        if str(request.params.get('bSortable_%s' % iSortCol, 'false') == 'true'):
            col = ordercols[iSortCol]
            if sSortDir == "asc":
                order_cols.append(col.asc())
            else:
                order_cols.append(col.desc())
search = request.params.get("sSearch", None)
filt = []
if search:
    filt = filtfunc(search)
if filt is not None and type(filt) != list:
    filt = [filt]
if type(cols) != list:
    cols = [cols]


itotal = perform_count([base_filt], idcol, search)
if no_paginate:
    iLength = itotal
if base_filt is not None:
    filt.append(base_filt)
cnt = perform_count(filt, idcol, search)
data = perform_search(filt, cols, iStart, iLength, order_cols)

return dict(
    sEcho=request.params.get("sEcho", 0),
    iTotalRecords=itotal,
    iTotalDisplayRecords=cnt,
    aaData=data
)

As I said before I am new to these Technologies, but I am willing to learn, if you can just point me in the right direction.


From techno206 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 07:22:29 2013
From: techno206 at gmail.com (techno206 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 04:22:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python - jquery datatables with mongodb(mongoengine)
In-Reply-To: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>
References: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <56c3fa2e-3e25-4928-9327-7f1ab4df43ac@googlegroups.com>

please reply here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20656134/python-jquery-datatables-with-mongodbmongoengine



From techno206 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 02:50:54 2013
From: techno206 at gmail.com (renier de bruyn)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 23:50:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python - jquery datatables with mongodb(mongoengine)
In-Reply-To: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>
References: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <3b660b5f-002f-4304-bcf6-c6eb37e0568e@googlegroups.com>

UPDATE:

So now I got this code:

import pymongo
from pyramid_mongo import get_db

# translation for sorting between datatables api and mongodb
order_dict = {'asc': 1, 'desc': -1}


class DataTables_Handler(object):
    def __init__(self, request, columns, index, collection):
        self.columns = columns
        self.index = index
        self.db = get_db(request)
        self.collection = collection

        # values specified by the datatable for filtering, sorting, paging
        self.request_values = request.params

        # results from the db
        self.result_data = None

        # total in the table after filtering
        self.cardinality_filtered = 0

        # total in the table unfiltered
        self.cadinality = 0

        self.run_queries()

    def output_result(self):
        output = {}
        output['sEcho'] = str(int(self.request_values['sEcho']))
        output['iTotalRecords'] = str(self.cardinality)
        output['iTotalDisplayRecords'] = str(self.cardinality_filtered)
        aaData_rows = []

        for row in self.result_data:
            aaData_row = []
            for i in range(len(self.columns)):

                aaData_row.append(row[self.columns[i]].replace('"', '\\"'))

            # add additional rows here that are not represented in the database
            # aaData_row.append(('''<input id='%s' type='checkbox'></input>''' % (str(row[ self.index ]))).replace('\\', ''))

            aaData_rows.append(aaData_row)

        output['aaData'] = aaData_rows

        return output

    def run_queries(self):

        # pages has 'start' and 'length' attributes
        pages = self.paging()

        # the term you entered into the datatable search
        filters = self.filtering()

        # the document field you chose to sort
        sorting = self.sorting()

        # get result from db
        self.result_data = self.db.self.collection.find(spec=filters,
                                                      skip=pages.start,
                                                      limit=pages.length,
                                                      sort=sorting)

        total_count = len(list(self.db.self.collection.find(spec=filters)))

        self.result_data = list(self.result_data)

        self.cardinality_filtered = total_count

        self.cardinality = len(list(self.db.self.collection.find()))

    def filtering(self):

        # build your filter spec
        filters = {}
        if (self.request_values.has_key('sSearch')) and (self.request_values['sSearch'] != ""):

            # the term put into search is logically concatenated with 'or' between all columns
        or_filter_on_all_columns = []

            for i in range(len(self.columns)):
                column_filter = {}
                column_filter[self.columns[i]] = {'$regex': self.request_values['sSearch'], '$options': 'i'}
                or_filter_on_all_columns.append(column_filter)
            filters['$or'] = or_filter_on_all_columns
        return filters

    def sorting(self):
        order = []
        # mongo translation for sorting order

        if (self.request_values['iSortCol_0'] != "") and (self.request_values['iSortingCols'] > 0):
            order = []
            for i in range(int(self.request_values['iSortingCols'])):
                order.append((self.columns[int(self.request_values['iSortCol_' + str(i)])], order_dict[self.request_values['sSortDir_' + str(i)]]))
        return order

    def paging(self):
        pages = namedtuple('pages', ['start', 'length'])
        if (self.request_values['iDisplayStart'] != "") and (self.request_values['iDisplayLength'] != -1):
            pages.start = int(self.request_values['iDisplayStart'])
            pages.length = int(self.request_values['iDisplayLength'])
        return pages

with this code in the View:

@view_config(
route_name='candidates.list.json',
renderer='json',
permission='admin'
)
def candidate_list_json(context, request):
    columns = [ 'id_number', 'first_name', 'email', 'mobile_number']
    index_column = "id_number"
    collection = "candidates"

    results = DataTables_Handler(request, columns, index_column, collection).output_result()

    # return the results as a string for the datatable
    return {"results": results}

and this in the template:

<a id="btn-addteam" class="btn btn-success" href="{{'add_candidate'|route_url}}"><i class="icon-plus"></i> Add Candidate</a>

ID Number Candidate Name Candidate email Mobile Number Health -->

<script src="{{'kivu:static/datatables/jquery.dataTables.js'|static_url}}"></script>
    <script src="{{'kivu:static/datatables/dataTables.scroller.js'|static_url}}"></script>   
<script>
$(document).ready(function() {
    url = "{{'candidates.list.json'|route_url}}";
    var oTable = $('#candidate_search').dataTable( {
        "bProcessing": true,
        "bServerSide": true,
        "sPaginationType": "full_numbers",
        "bjQueryUI": true,
        "sAjaxSource": url
});
} );</script>

But its giving me a js error:

TypeError: aData is undefined
    for ( var i=0, iLen=aData.length ; i<iLen ; i++ )

my GET response returns:

{"results": {"aaData": [], "iTotalRecords": "0", "sEcho": "1", "iTotalDisplayRecords": "0"}}

there is data in the database. What am I missing?


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Dec 19 03:18:42 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:18:42 +0100
Subject: python - jquery datatables with mongodb(mongoengine)
References: <21351ab8-dde9-4e12-bc36-9036de39d9f0@googlegroups.com>
 <3b660b5f-002f-4304-bcf6-c6eb37e0568e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8ua4n$ufv$1@ger.gmane.org>

renier de bruyn wrote:

> UPDATE:
> 
> So now I got this code:
> 
> import pymongo
> from pyramid_mongo import get_db
> 
> # translation for sorting between datatables api and mongodb
> order_dict = {'asc': 1, 'desc': -1}
> 
> 
> class DataTables_Handler(object):
>     def __init__(self, request, columns, index, collection):
>         self.columns = columns
>         self.index = index
>         self.db = get_db(request)
>         self.collection = collection
> 
>         # values specified by the datatable for filtering, sorting, paging
>         self.request_values = request.params
> 
>         # results from the db
>         self.result_data = None
> 
>         # total in the table after filtering
>         self.cardinality_filtered = 0
> 
>         # total in the table unfiltered
>         self.cadinality = 0
> 
>         self.run_queries()
> 
>     def output_result(self):
>         output = {}
>         output['sEcho'] = str(int(self.request_values['sEcho']))
>         output['iTotalRecords'] = str(self.cardinality)
>         output['iTotalDisplayRecords'] = str(self.cardinality_filtered)
>         aaData_rows = []
> 
>         for row in self.result_data:
>             aaData_row = []
>             for i in range(len(self.columns)):
> 
>                 aaData_row.append(row[self.columns[i]].replace('"',
>                 '\\"'))
> 
>             # add additional rows here that are not represented in the
>             # database aaData_row.append(('''<input id='%s'
>             # type='checkbox'></input>''' % (str(row[ self.index
>             # ]))).replace('\\', ''))
> 
>             aaData_rows.append(aaData_row)
> 
>         output['aaData'] = aaData_rows
> 
>         return output
> 
>     def run_queries(self):
> 
>         # pages has 'start' and 'length' attributes
>         pages = self.paging()
> 
>         # the term you entered into the datatable search
>         filters = self.filtering()
> 
>         # the document field you chose to sort
>         sorting = self.sorting()
> 
>         # get result from db
>         self.result_data = self.db.self.collection.find(spec=filters,
>                                                       skip=pages.start,
>                                                       limit=pages.length,
>                                                       sort=sorting)
> 
>         total_count =
>         len(list(self.db.self.collection.find(spec=filters)))
> 
>         self.result_data = list(self.result_data)
> 
>         self.cardinality_filtered = total_count
> 
>         self.cardinality = len(list(self.db.self.collection.find()))
> 
>     def filtering(self):
> 
>         # build your filter spec
>         filters = {}
>         if (self.request_values.has_key('sSearch')) and
>         (self.request_values['sSearch'] != ""):
> 
>             # the term put into search is logically concatenated with 'or'
>             # between all columns
>         or_filter_on_all_columns = []
> 
>             for i in range(len(self.columns)):
>                 column_filter = {}
>                 column_filter[self.columns[i]] = {'$regex':
>                 self.request_values['sSearch'], '$options': 'i'}
>                 or_filter_on_all_columns.append(column_filter)
>             filters['$or'] = or_filter_on_all_columns
>         return filters
> 
>     def sorting(self):
>         order = []
>         # mongo translation for sorting order
> 
>         if (self.request_values['iSortCol_0'] != "") and
>         (self.request_values['iSortingCols'] > 0):
>             order = []
>             for i in range(int(self.request_values['iSortingCols'])):
>                 
order.append((self.columns[int(self.request_values['iSortCol_'
>                 + str(i)])], order_dict[self.request_values['sSortDir_' +
>                 str(i)]]))
>         return order
> 
>     def paging(self):
>         pages = namedtuple('pages', ['start', 'length'])
>         if (self.request_values['iDisplayStart'] != "") and
>         (self.request_values['iDisplayLength'] != -1):
>             pages.start = int(self.request_values['iDisplayStart'])
>             pages.length = int(self.request_values['iDisplayLength'])
>         return pages
> 
> with this code in the View:
> 
> @view_config(
> route_name='candidates.list.json',
> renderer='json',
> permission='admin'
> )
> def candidate_list_json(context, request):
>     columns = [ 'id_number', 'first_name', 'email', 'mobile_number']
>     index_column = "id_number"
>     collection = "candidates"
> 
>     results = DataTables_Handler(request, columns, index_column,
>     collection).output_result()
> 
>     # return the results as a string for the datatable
>     return {"results": results}
> 
> and this in the template:
> 
> <a id="btn-addteam" class="btn btn-success"
> href="{{'add_candidate'|route_url}}"><i class="icon-plus"></i> Add
> Candidate</a>
> 
> ID Number Candidate Name Candidate email Mobile Number Health -->
> 
> <script
> src="{{'kivu:static/datatables/jquery.dataTables.js'|
static_url}}"></script>
>     <script
>     src="{{'kivu:static/datatables/dataTables.scroller.js'|
static_url}}"></script>
> <script>
> $(document).ready(function() {
>     url = "{{'candidates.list.json'|route_url}}";
>     var oTable = $('#candidate_search').dataTable( {
>         "bProcessing": true,
>         "bServerSide": true,
>         "sPaginationType": "full_numbers",
>         "bjQueryUI": true,
>         "sAjaxSource": url
> });
> } );</script>
> 
> But its giving me a js error:
> 
> TypeError: aData is undefined
>     for ( var i=0, iLen=aData.length ; i<iLen ; i++ )
> 
> my GET response returns:
> 
> {"results": {"aaData": [], "iTotalRecords": "0", "sEcho": "1",
> {"iTotalDisplayRecords": "0"}}
> 
> there is data in the database. What am I missing?

Could it have to do with the mismatch of 'aData' versus 'aaData'?



From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 07:56:17 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 04:56:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module  or any module
Message-ID: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>

please do replay how to handle captcha through machanize module 


From jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 08:24:04 2013
From: jaiprakashsingh213 at gmail.com (Jai)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 05:24:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module  or any module
In-Reply-To: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <fd282329-c5d7-4db8-9b15-bbba6ce079ae@googlegroups.com>

#/usr/bin/env python 

import mechanize, re
import cookielib
import cgi
import urllib2
from random import choice

def get_domain(url):
    return urlparse.urlparse(url).netloc


if __name__=="__main__":
   br = mechanize.Browser()
   cj = cookielib.LWPCookieJar()
   br.set_proxies({"http": "217.174.155.73:8080"})
   br.set_cookiejar(cj)
   br.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Firefox')]
   br.set_handle_equiv(True)
   br.set_handle_gzip(True)
   br.set_handle_redirect(True)
   br.set_handle_referer(True)
   br.set_handle_robots(False)
   br.set_handle_refresh(False) # can sometimes hang without this
   url = "http://goarticles.com/"
   response = br.open(url)
   print response.info()
   link_list = []
   for link in br.links():
       match = re.search(r"register", str(link.url))
       if match: 
           link2 = (link.base_url[:-1]+link.url)
           if  link2 not in link_list:
               link_list.append(link2)
               print link2 

   response2 = br.open(link2)
   for form in br.forms():
       form.set_all_readonly(False)     
    
   br.form = list(br.forms())[1] # use when form is unnamed 
   for control in br.form.controls:
       if str(control.type) == "text" and str(control.name) =="email":
           br.form[str(control.name)]="jaiprakash at wisepromo.com"
       elif str(control.type)=="text":
           br.form[str(control.name)]="mybot"+control.name
       elif str(control.type) =="select":
           br.form[str(control.name)]=[str(control.items[1])]
       elif str(control.type) =="password":
           br.form[str(control.name)] = "mybotpassword213"
       elif str(control.type)=="checkbox":
       	   br.find_control(str(control.name)).items[0].selected=True
       elif re.search(r"captcha",str(control.name)):
           br.form[str(control.name)] = "mybotcaptcha"
       else:
          pass
       #elif str(control.type)=="submit":
      
   responce = br.submit()     
   print responce.info()
   #print responce.read()  





sir , i am very new to python i have just started to learn it , 

my aim is to  practice 
1)simple automatic form registration,
2)simple automatic vitrification
3)simple automatic loging

this site http://goarticles.com/register.html

sir i m referring  the mechanize  module

now i am stuck on two thing

1) how to automatically handling the captcha on this form
2) how to verify or  the filled form 

please help i have already gave 2 days on this  just i want some clue from ur side 


From robert.kern at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 08:29:30 2013
From: robert.kern at gmail.com (Robert Kern)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:29:30 +0000
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module  or any module
In-Reply-To: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2013-12-18 12:56, Jai wrote:
> please do replay how to handle captcha through machanize module

You've asked the same question twice now. You have received the only answer that 
you are going to get here: we won't help you do this. We may help you learn to 
do other stuff with Python, but not this. Please stop asking this question.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 09:48:46 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:48:46 -0500
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module or any module
In-Reply-To: <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
 <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:29 AM, Robert Kern <robert.kern at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-12-18 12:56, Jai wrote:
>
>> please do replay how to handle captcha through machanize module
>>
>
> You've asked the same question twice now. You have received the only
> answer that you are going to get here: we won't help you do this. We may
> help you learn to do other stuff with Python, but not this. Please stop
> asking this question.


Jai,

The first time you asked for help you used all capital letters. People
usually don't take that well, since it is like yelling.  As Robert pointed
out, you then asked the same question again.  This is also not good.  Then
you complain that you haven't been given service in two days.

So, what you need to do is show a small coding example of the problem you
are having.  Give the OS, the python version, and copy the traceback if
there is an error.


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 09:51:28 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 01:51:28 +1100
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module or any module
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
 <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq02RJ7C7y+_UU_yg1hnLVqvH86f=6iiZoa1Y5cSsM7xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Joel Goldstick
<joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, what you need to do is show a small coding example of the problem you
> are having.  Give the OS, the python version, and copy the traceback if
> there is an error.

And give a good solid reason why you need to automate a CAPTCHA,
because none of us here wants to contribute to the eternal problem of
spam.

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 13:11:21 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:11:21 -0700
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module or any module
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq02RJ7C7y+_UU_yg1hnLVqvH86f=6iiZoa1Y5cSsM7xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
 <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq02RJ7C7y+_UU_yg1hnLVqvH86f=6iiZoa1Y5cSsM7xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B1E549.90105@gmail.com>

On 12/18/2013 07:51 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Joel Goldstick
> <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
>> So, what you need to do is show a small coding example of the problem you
>> are having.  Give the OS, the python version, and copy the traceback if
>> there is an error.
> 
> And give a good solid reason why you need to automate a CAPTCHA,
> because none of us here wants to contribute to the eternal problem of
> spam.

Nor do we wish to be party to helping you violate goarticle's terms of
service.  If you do violate their terms of service, then you forfeit any
right to view their content.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 13:21:50 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:21:50 +0000
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module or any module
In-Reply-To: <52B1E549.90105@gmail.com>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
 <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq02RJ7C7y+_UU_yg1hnLVqvH86f=6iiZoa1Y5cSsM7xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52B1E549.90105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8sp3m$iro$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 18:11, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/18/2013 07:51 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Joel Goldstick
>> <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> So, what you need to do is show a small coding example of the problem you
>>> are having.  Give the OS, the python version, and copy the traceback if
>>> there is an error.
>>
>> And give a good solid reason why you need to automate a CAPTCHA,
>> because none of us here wants to contribute to the eternal problem of
>> spam.
>
> Nor do we wish to be party to helping you violate goarticle's terms of
> service.  If you do violate their terms of service, then you forfeit any
> right to view their content.
>

Sadly by answering their previous questions going back to 19/11/2013 
perhaps we've already, inadvertently set them off down this sticky path. 
  Oh, I just wish I'd attended that management course about advance 
hindsight :(

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 13:31:47 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 13:31:47 -0500
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module or any module
In-Reply-To: <l8sp3m$iro$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
 <l8s7vf$ndv$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPM-O+xT_Xib+c+4Pyu3E+HHYFMTANgN-fWmtsWaAZ37-HRz-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq02RJ7C7y+_UU_yg1hnLVqvH86f=6iiZoa1Y5cSsM7xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52B1E549.90105@gmail.com> <l8sp3m$iro$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xEi+68n4RUk_kyi2K8qZb+zzogdy6EtL-stOdxOEKaUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

> On 18/12/2013 18:11, Michael Torrie wrote:
>
>> On 12/18/2013 07:51 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 1:48 AM, Joel Goldstick
>>> <joel.goldstick at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So, what you need to do is show a small coding example of the problem
>>>> you
>>>> are having.  Give the OS, the python version, and copy the traceback if
>>>> there is an error.
>>>>
>>>
>>> And give a good solid reason why you need to automate a CAPTCHA,
>>> because none of us here wants to contribute to the eternal problem of
>>> spam.
>>>
>>
>> Nor do we wish to be party to helping you violate goarticle's terms of
>> service.  If you do violate their terms of service, then you forfeit any
>> right to view their content.
>>
>>
> Sadly by answering their previous questions going back to 19/11/2013
> perhaps we've already, inadvertently set them off down this sticky path.
>  Oh, I just wish I'd attended that management course about advance
> hindsight :(
>

The OP seems to be a kind of 'drive by' questioner.  He yells out his plea
as his ride cruises by.  Around the block and yell again.


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 14:58:53 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:58:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: how to handle captcha through machanize module  or any module
References: <2b488aa4-5698-4be8-b272-7f93c49d154c@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8supt$pqv$2@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 18 Dec 2013 04:56:17 -0800, Jai wrote:

> please do replay how to handle captcha through machanize module

The purpose of a captcha is to prevent automated scraping of data. Many 
of us may choose, or even need, to use captcha. What on earth makes you 
think for one minute that we'll help you bypass them.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Wed Dec 18 10:16:43 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:16:43 -0700
Subject: Use of urllib (update)
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3vX_RydvdiNuP653JGvw7HCGWkHqb4_UXw=SJe3PW2U_g@mail.gmail.com>

Folks, I promise I'll get to the point where my questions aren't so basic,
but I'm just now starting to get into Python.   So I'm using the urllib
script to check to make sure our company sites are up.  As stated earlier,
I have three sites which require some form of authentication in order to
report back through the script that they are up and accessible.    I was
given this very helpful link by Larry covering some authentication code I
could implement into the script.
http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/urllib2.html#id6 .    I can make out the
logic behind the script, but because I'm still new to Python, I'm having a
hard time trying to figure out how to implement it into my existing urllib
script.  I'm assuming I need to integrate the code somehow for each url
requiring authentication in that each site requires different creds.......
 Other than this little speedbump this script is pretty slick and has
already scored a few points with my manager.  ;o)     Thanks
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From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 10:45:25 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 10:45:25 -0500
Subject: Use of urllib (update)
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3vX_RydvdiNuP653JGvw7HCGWkHqb4_UXw=SJe3PW2U_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3vX_RydvdiNuP653JGvw7HCGWkHqb4_UXw=SJe3PW2U_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xfwJDP19WMhodcC+ke9iJg=h5kq_14cedJrnEBSDUQ=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:

> Folks, I promise I'll get to the point where my questions aren't so basic,
> but I'm just now starting to get into Python.   So I'm using the urllib
> script to check to make sure our company sites are up.  As stated earlier,
> I have three sites which require some form of authentication in order to
> report back through the script that they are up and accessible.    I was
> given this very helpful link by Larry covering some authentication code I
> could implement into the script.
> http://docs.python.org/2.7/howto/urllib2.html#id6 .    I can make out the
> logic behind the script, but because I'm still new to Python, I'm having a
> hard time trying to figure out how to implement it into my existing urllib
> script.  I'm assuming I need to integrate the code somehow for each url
> requiring authentication in that each site requires different creds.......
>  Other than this little speedbump this script is pretty slick and has
> already scored a few points with my manager.  ;o)     Thanks
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
You might also want to check here:
http://www.python-requests.org/en/latest/user/authentication/

The requests module might be easier to understand.

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From twilkins50 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 11:45:08 2013
From: twilkins50 at gmail.com (twilkins50 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 08:45:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to import Wave files into python?
Message-ID: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>

How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just start playing when its run? - Tom 14


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 11:57:09 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:57:09 -0500
Subject: How to import Wave files into python?
In-Reply-To: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
References: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+yK=FCKKu4nb0c7Skh_5u9y_kh4+_N=e7D2qvLwgua63Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:45 AM, <twilkins50 at gmail.com> wrote:

> How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
> also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just start
> playing when its run? - Tom 14
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


Hi.  How exactly have you tried to import a wave file?  If you have a short
example of code, (python 2x or 3x) and what OS you will get probably get
some help

Have you googled this:  "python play wav file"

Looks like there is something there that might help you get started

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From ishish at domhain.de  Wed Dec 18 12:08:53 2013
From: ishish at domhain.de (ishish)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:08:53 +0000
Subject: How to import Wave files into =?UTF-8?Q?python=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+yK=FCKKu4nb0c7Skh_5u9y_kh4+_N=e7D2qvLwgua63Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPM-O+yK=FCKKu4nb0c7Skh_5u9y_kh4+_N=e7D2qvLwgua63Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bd56c2c81fa71339262f8328a1fb7358@home.minuskel.de>

> How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
> also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just
> start playing when its run? - Tom 14
> --

For the GUI (Tkinter) there is tkSnack.
If you want to run it from the command line you could use sox.


From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Wed Dec 18 13:07:25 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:07:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: How to import Wave files into python?
In-Reply-To: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1920604572.1696426.1387390045898.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
> also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just
> start playing when its run? - Tom 14
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

I think the pygame module should be able to do so.

JM 


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From diesch111 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 17:30:18 2013
From: diesch111 at gmail.com (diesch111 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 14:30:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to import Wave files into python?
In-Reply-To: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
References: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <849028d9-a812-417d-bb56-f787e014964c@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:45:08 AM UTC-8, twilk... at gmail.com wrote:
> How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
> 
> also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just start playing when its run? - Tom 14

QSound.play(wave_file)


From diesch111 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 17:26:06 2013
From: diesch111 at gmail.com (diesch111 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 14:26:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to import Wave files into python?
In-Reply-To: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
References: <cce65ffc-2560-4a00-9cd7-a7bf6d3ee6e6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <162e22b5-b32e-4cbf-a0dd-bf129ff8abd9@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 8:45:08 AM UTC-8, twilk... at gmail.com wrote:
> How exactly do I import a .wav file and run it?
> 
> also is it possible to run it inside a while loop if so or it just start playing when its run? - Tom 14

Using Pyside/PyQt you can play wave files this way ...
QSound.play(wave_filename)


From p_s_d_a_s_i_l_v_a at netcabo.pt  Wed Dec 18 13:37:15 2013
From: p_s_d_a_s_i_l_v_a at netcabo.pt (Paulo da Silva)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 18:37:15 +0000
Subject: Copy a file like unix cp -a --reflink
Message-ID: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>

Hi!

Is there a way to copy a file the same as Unix command:

cp -a --reflink src dest

without invoking a shell command?

Thanks


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 14:19:47 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:19:47 -0500
Subject: Copy a file like unix cp -a --reflink
In-Reply-To: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
References: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+zyTNSpfDyH93065jerkP5Syu+y0g-gB9Bv_ytDt0Qufw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Paulo da Silva <
p_s_d_a_s_i_l_v_a at netcabo.pt> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Is there a way to copy a file the same as Unix command:
>
> cp -a --reflink src dest
>
> without invoking a shell command?
>
> Thanks
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

You want to make a symlink to a file ini python.  I think this might get
you there:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4847615/copying-a-symbolic-link-in-python


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From malaclypse2 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 14:43:14 2013
From: malaclypse2 at gmail.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:43:14 -0500
Subject: Copy a file like unix cp -a --reflink
In-Reply-To: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
References: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CADwdpybgWKduxQVcAL9A+nUovrXhvVxDNduHy+DoUVcGW9xxdw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Paulo da Silva
<p_s_d_a_s_i_l_v_a at netcabo.pt> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Is there a way to copy a file the same as Unix command:
>
> cp -a --reflink src dest
>
> without invoking a shell command?

I started to dig through the cp man page to see what that did, then
gave up when each option expanded out to several more.  i.e., "-a,
--archive same as -dR --preserve=all" leads to looking up -d -R and
--preserve, etc.

To me, it's just not worth it to spend more time researching your
question than you spent writing the email asking it. If you don't get
the answers you're looking for, you might try asking again, specifying
the exact behavior you'd like to achieve.

PS: That isn't really meant as any kind of complaint about your
question.  It's consise, easy to read, and gets right to the point.
It just assumes a lot of background knowledge.  If someone else
happens to already know all of that background, they may be able to
help right off.  If not, they may be interested enough to do the
research to figure it all out and then help. You just may be able to
prompt more people to help by cutting down on the amount of work it
would take them to do so.

-- 
Jerry


From as at sci.fi  Fri Dec 20 14:17:20 2013
From: as at sci.fi (Anssi Saari)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 21:17:20 +0200
Subject: Copy a file like unix cp -a --reflink
References: <l8sq0p$dd3$1@speranza.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <vg338lne3i7.fsf@coffee.modeemi.fi>

Paulo da Silva <p_s_d_a_s_i_l_v_a at netcabo.pt> writes:

> Hi!
>
> Is there a way to copy a file the same as Unix command:
>
> cp -a --reflink src dest
>
> without invoking a shell command?

I vaguely remember this was asked and answered some time ago and the
answer was no, even just for -a.  In fact, the python shutil module
documentation starts with a warning to that effect. The --reflink stuff
would be another thing altogether.

More accurately, currently the only way would be to duplicate this
functionality of cp in python.


From azeynel1 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 14:49:25 2013
From: azeynel1 at gmail.com (azeynel1 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:49:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Is it easier to deploy a Python application with nginx than
 Clojure+nginx?
Message-ID: <c8143a58-b748-4287-ab8b-720d5c30b9f1@googlegroups.com>

Hello, I've set up a home server (ubuntu + nginx) to learn this stuff. I was also interested in Clojure and I wanted to use Clojure to deploy a simple application. But from the questions that I asked, e.g., http://stackoverflow.com/questions/20666497/can-i-use-clojure-with-nginx it appears that deploying Clojure is not so easy for a beginner. Since I had some previous experience with Google App Engine with Python I thought about using Python and nginx. Do you think as an absolute beginner it would be easier for me to work with Python? Thanks.


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 15:17:58 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:17:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program and
 console-commands
Message-ID: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>

I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
switch to
the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
already
defined in the python-program.
I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
efficient):
I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.

any suggestions?
thanks in advance 
jean


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 15:25:17 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:25:17 -0500
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program and
 console-commands
In-Reply-To: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wmDZrLc9DC61ZXAH6GG2epEH-KsjRBHh_P-Xt-S4+FbQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>wrote:

> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> switch to
> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> already
> defined in the python-program.
> I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
> efficient):
> I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
> the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
> if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.
>
> any suggestions?
> thanks in advance
> jean
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


Write the code to a file.  you can run it like:

python program_name.py

Go back to your text editor and do copy all (ctl-a, ctl-v) then open a
python console and paste it in

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From malaclypse2 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 15:28:05 2013
From: malaclypse2 at gmail.com (Jerry Hill)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:28:05 -0500
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program and
 console-commands
In-Reply-To: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CADwdpyaMeCPU7Ni6JmqmJEpCm7XeHubjkQohASvQ_vkBBP5JUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> switch to
> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> already
> defined in the python-program.
> I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
> efficient):
> I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
> the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
> if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.

On the command line, python itself can take command line options,
including one that does exactly what you're looking for.

python -i script.py

That command will run script.py to its end, then drop you into the
interactive interpreter with the environment intact from running the
script.

-- 
Jerry


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 15:29:45 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:29:45 -0500
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program and
 console-commands
In-Reply-To: <CADwdpyaMeCPU7Ni6JmqmJEpCm7XeHubjkQohASvQ_vkBBP5JUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CADwdpyaMeCPU7Ni6JmqmJEpCm7XeHubjkQohASvQ_vkBBP5JUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wwTM9K6zYxudeh_oD5969dEQAkhwR-qcr_9aY3LsEEKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Jerry Hill <malaclypse2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> > switch to
> > the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> > already
> > defined in the python-program.
> > I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
> > efficient):
> > I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line
> from
> > the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
> > if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.
>
> On the command line, python itself can take command line options,
> including one that does exactly what you're looking for.
>
> python -i script.py
>
> That command will run script.py to its end, then drop you into the
> interactive interpreter with the environment intact from running the
> script.
>
> --
> Jerry
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Wow, Jerry, I didn't know that one.  Cool

-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Dec 18 17:02:46 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:02:46 -0500
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program
 and console-commands
In-Reply-To: <CADwdpyaMeCPU7Ni6JmqmJEpCm7XeHubjkQohASvQ_vkBBP5JUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
 <CADwdpyaMeCPU7Ni6JmqmJEpCm7XeHubjkQohASvQ_vkBBP5JUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l8t61t$lrf$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/18/2013 3:28 PM, Jerry Hill wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
>> switch to
>> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
>> already
>> defined in the python-program.
>> I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
>> efficient):
>> I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
>> the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
>> if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.
>
> On the command line, python itself can take command line options,
> including one that does exactly what you're looking for.
>
> python -i script.py
>
> That command will run script.py to its end, then drop you into the
> interactive interpreter with the environment intact from running the
> script.

This is effectively what Idle does when you run code in an editor 
window. You can interactive with the result in the Shell window. If 
there is a traceback, right click on a line in the traceback and select 
'goto' to go the the spot of the foul.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 18 15:52:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:52:35 +0000
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program
 and console-commands
In-Reply-To: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8t1uc$620$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 18/12/2013 20:17, Jean Dubois wrote:
> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> switch to
> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> already
> defined in the python-program.
> I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
> efficient):
> I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
> the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
> if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.
>
> any suggestions?
> thanks in advance
> jean
>

An alternative to the excellent answer from Jerry Hill is to use the 
iPython %paste command.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 22:16:52 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 19:16:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program and
 console-commands
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4383.1387398496.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4383.1387398496.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <b2666f74-e2f4-4889-b68e-4b09621f456e@googlegroups.com>

Op woensdag 18 december 2013 21:28:05 UTC+1 schreef Jerry Hill:
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 3:17 PM, Jean Dubois <jeandubois314 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> > switch to
> > the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> > already
> > defined in the python-program.
> > I want this as an alternative for what I do now (but which is not very
> > efficient):
> > I start the python-console and then manually copy-paste line per line from
> > the program in the console, then try out possible continuation commands,
> > if however something goes wrong I have to redo the whole process.
> On the command line, python itself can take command line options,
> including one that does exactly what you're looking for.
> python -i script.py
> That command will run script.py to its end, then drop you into the
> interactive interpreter with the environment intact from running the
> script.
Thank you very much Jerry, this is exactly what I needed

kind regards,
jean



From auriocus at gmx.de  Thu Dec 19 02:24:47 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:24:47 +0100
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program
 and console-commands
In-Reply-To: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l8u6vv$iuj$1@dont-email.me>

Am 18.12.13 21:17, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
> switch to
> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
> already
> defined in the python-program.

Excellent way to use/debug a scripting langugage. Use ipython, and then 
either

%run myfile.py

or

execfile('myfile.py')

You can do this multiple times, where the new definitions overwrite the 
old ones. In any case, ipython is much more friendly to use at the 
command prompt than plain python.

	Christian



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Dec 19 02:33:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 07:33:35 +0000
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program
 and console-commands
In-Reply-To: <l8u6vv$iuj$1@dont-email.me>
References: <7fb59330-6de2-4ea9-923e-7845de22df1e@googlegroups.com>
 <l8u6vv$iuj$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l8u7g7$299$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 19/12/2013 07:24, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 18.12.13 21:17, schrieb Jean Dubois:
>> I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first, then
>> switch to
>> the python console to experiment with further commands, using what was
>> already
>> defined in the python-program.
>
> Excellent way to use/debug a scripting langugage. Use ipython, and then
> either
>
> %run myfile.py
>
> or
>
> execfile('myfile.py')
>
> You can do this multiple times, where the new definitions overwrite the
> old ones. In any case, ipython is much more friendly to use at the
> command prompt than plain python.
>
>      Christian
>

execfile is Python 2 only.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Mon Dec 23 07:24:57 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:24:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: how to develop code using a mix of an existing python-program
 and console-commands
In-Reply-To: <l8u6vv$iuj$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <274656627.2042941.1387801497784.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> Am 18.12.13 21:17, schrieb Jean Dubois:
> > I have a python-program which I want to perform its task first,
> > then
> > switch to
> > the python console to experiment with further commands, using what
> > was
> > already
> > defined in the python-program.
> 
> Excellent way to use/debug a scripting langugage. Use ipython, and
> then
> either
> 
> %run myfile.py

I second his suggestion. Additionally, 

%pdb
%run myfile.py

will automatically call the ipython debugger on unhandled exceptions, making post mortem debugging a walk in a park.

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Wed Dec 18 23:32:52 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 20:32:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unpacking the structures
Message-ID: <90e2b0ab-700a-4fe9-bc08-fa8fc21e292f@googlegroups.com>


Hi all,
   While performing the packing/unpacking of xdr structures of rpc I get an error as following.


x = struct.unpack('>L', data)[0] struct.error: unpack requires a string argument of length 4.
  
Can anybody help me in this regard?

I checked the following link:
http://docs.python.org/2/library/xdrlib.html
But there is no way to packing/unpacking the structure data type.

Regards
Pradeep


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 19 01:15:53 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 22:15:53 -0800
Subject: Unpacking the structures
In-Reply-To: <90e2b0ab-700a-4fe9-bc08-fa8fc21e292f@googlegroups.com>
References: <90e2b0ab-700a-4fe9-bc08-fa8fc21e292f@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_o-8jBXXH1ECRNK4AvkWUZoeoKaGkXJQ5i-Ko6UeJkKrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:32 PM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>    While performing the packing/unpacking of xdr structures of rpc I get an error as following.
>
>
> x = struct.unpack('>L', data)[0] struct.error: unpack requires a string argument of length 4.
>
> Can anybody help me in this regard?

What does print(len(data)) say?


From wangmengnansi1045 at sogou-inc.com  Thu Dec 19 02:00:23 2013
From: wangmengnansi1045 at sogou-inc.com (=?gb2312?B?V2FuZ01lbmdOYW4o18DD5srC0rWyvyk=?=)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 07:00:23 +0000
Subject: win32api.SetCursorPos() question
Message-ID: <0361EFE72249CA47AE08B5E5D647D8A907E4F8@SOGOUEXMB01.sogou-inc.com>

You should write like that:
win32api.SetCursorPos((100,100))
(100,100) is a point value
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From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 19 09:19:10 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:19:10 -0500
Subject: Use of Python for teaching geometry.
Message-ID: <roy-E660F1.09191019122013@news.panix.com>

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=688904791141196&set=a.46529938016
8406.106666.465298390168505&type=1&theater

Shortened version: http://tinyurl.com/kvtcye9


From ycui at outlook.com  Thu Dec 19 21:50:52 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:50:52 -0300
Subject: Regular Expression : Bad Character Range
Message-ID: <BAY176-W21EE1C4E4FB47763A147C7DAC40@phx.gbl>

Hey guys,

I'm trying to compile a regular Expression while encountering the following issue, any hints ?

is hyphen "-" or underscore "_" considered any meta character which is not allowed when putting into the range ?

Thanks
Frank

In [2]: re.compile("[\w-_]+>")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
error                                     Traceback (most recent call last)
/home/frank/<ipython-input-2-ee4b44c4d17a> in <module>()
----> 1 re.compile("[\w-_]+>")

/usr/lib/python2.7/re.pyc in compile(pattern, flags)
    188 def compile(pattern, flags=0):
    189     "Compile a regular expression pattern, returning a pattern object."
--> 190     return _compile(pattern, flags)
    191 
    192 def purge():

/usr/lib/python2.7/re.pyc in _compile(*key)
    240         p = sre_compile.compile(pattern, flags)
    241     except error, v:
--> 242         raise error, v # invalid expression
    243     if len(_cache) >= _MAXCACHE:
    244         _cache.clear()

error: bad character range

 		 	   		  
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From ycui at outlook.com  Thu Dec 19 21:53:04 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:53:04 -0300
Subject: Regular Expression : Bad Character Range
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W21EE1C4E4FB47763A147C7DAC40@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY176-W21EE1C4E4FB47763A147C7DAC40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W161E5F65ABC99A22D1A1D2DAC40@phx.gbl>

should have escaped hyphen as it could be used for ranging. 

sorry for the bother...

From: ycui at outlook.com
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Regular Expression : Bad Character Range
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:50:52 -0300




Hey guys,

I'm trying to compile a regular Expression while encountering the following issue, any hints ?

is hyphen "-" or underscore "_" considered any meta character which is not allowed when putting into the range ?

Thanks
Frank

In [2]: re.compile("[\w-_]+>")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
error                                     Traceback (most recent call last)
/home/frank/<ipython-input-2-ee4b44c4d17a> in <module>()
----> 1 re.compile("[\w-_]+>")

/usr/lib/python2.7/re.pyc in compile(pattern, flags)
    188 def compile(pattern, flags=0):
    189     "Compile a regular expression pattern, returning a pattern object."
--> 190     return _compile(pattern, flags)
    191 
    192 def purge():

/usr/lib/python2.7/re.pyc in _compile(*key)
    240         p = sre_compile.compile(pattern, flags)
    241     except error, v:
--> 242         raise error, v # invalid expression
    243     if len(_cache) >= _MAXCACHE:
    244         _cache.clear()

error: bad character range

 		 	   		  

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 		 	   		  
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From neutronest at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 00:48:53 2013
From: neutronest at gmail.com (chao dong)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 21:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to use the method loadtxt() of numpy neatly?
Message-ID: <96f12116-29fa-4bce-bd4f-c218ca2ecc65@googlegroups.com>

    HI, everybody. When I try to use numpy to deal with my dataset in the style of csv, I face a little problem.
    
    In my dataset of the csv file, some columns are string that can not convert to float easily. Some of them can ignore, but other columns I need to change the data to a enum style.

    for example, one column just contain three kinds : S,Q,C. Each of them can declare one meaning, so I must convert them to a dict just like {1,2,3}
    
    Now the question is, when I use numpy.loadtxt, I must do all things above in just one line and one fuction. So as a new user in numpy, I don't know how to solve it.

    Thank you.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 04:45:42 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 01:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to use the method loadtxt() of numpy neatly?
In-Reply-To: <96f12116-29fa-4bce-bd4f-c218ca2ecc65@googlegroups.com>
References: <96f12116-29fa-4bce-bd4f-c218ca2ecc65@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <a16e4395-232b-4a00-acca-d638ac7e421d@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 20, 2013 11:18:53 AM UTC+5:30, chao dong wrote:
> HI, everybody. When I try to use numpy to deal with my dataset in the style of csv, I face a little problem.

>     In my dataset of the csv file, some columns are string that can not convert to float easily. Some of them can ignore, but other columns I need to change the data to a enum style.

>     for example, one column just contain three kinds : S,Q,C. Each of them can declare one meaning, so I must convert them to a dict just like {1,2,3}

What does "dict like {1,2,3}" mean??

On recent python thats a set
On older ones its probably an error.
So you can mean one of:
1. Set([1,2,3])
2. List: [1,2,3]
3. Tuple: (1,2,3)
4. Dict: {"S":1, "Q":2, "C":3}
5. An enumeration (on very recent pythons)
6. A simulation of an enum using classes (or somesuch)
7. Something else


>     Now the question is, when I use numpy.loadtxt, I must do all things above in just one line and one fuction. So as a new user in numpy, I don't know how to solve it.

I suggest you supply a couple of rows of your input
And the corresponding python data-structures you desire
Someone should then suggest how to go about it



From __peter__ at web.de  Fri Dec 20 05:45:23 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 11:45:23 +0100
Subject: How to use the method loadtxt() of numpy neatly?
References: <96f12116-29fa-4bce-bd4f-c218ca2ecc65@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9173n$oo9$1@ger.gmane.org>

chao dong wrote:

>     HI, everybody. When I try to use numpy to deal with my dataset in the
>     style of csv, I face a little problem.
>     
>     In my dataset of the csv file, some columns are string that can not
>     convert to float easily. Some of them can ignore, but other columns I
>     need to change the data to a enum style.
> 
>     for example, one column just contain three kinds : S,Q,C. Each of them
>     can declare one meaning, so I must convert them to a dict just like
>     {1,2,3}
>     
>     Now the question is, when I use numpy.loadtxt, I must do all things
>     above in just one line and one fuction. So as a new user in numpy, I
>     don't know how to solve it.
> 
>     Thank you.

Here's a standalone demo:

import numpy

_lookup={"A": 1, "B": 2}
def convert(x):
    return _lookup.get(x, -1)

converters = {
    0: convert, # in column 0 convert "A" --> 1, "B" --> 2, 
                # anything else to -1
}


if __name__ == "__main__":
    # generate csv
    with open("tmp_sample.csv", "wb") as f:
        f.write("""\
A,1,this,67.8
B,2,should,56.7
C,3,be,34.5
A,4,skipped,12.3
""")

    # load csv
    a = numpy.loadtxt(
        "tmp_sample.csv",
        converters=converters,
        delimiter=",",
        usecols=(0, 1, 3) # skip third column
        )
    print a

Does that help?



From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 20 09:19:39 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:19:39 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
Message-ID: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>

http://xkcd.com/1306/


From storchaka at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:46:10 2013
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:46:10 +0200
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l91von$807$2@ger.gmane.org>

20.12.13 16:19, Roy Smith ???????(??):
> http://xkcd.com/1306/

QBASIC$, not $QBASIC.



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec 20 16:44:30 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:44:30 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>

Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
> 20.12.13 16:19, Roy Smith ???????(??):
> 
>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
> 
> QBASIC$, not $QBASIC.

Or just QB$. (Most BASICs of that era only regarded
the first two characters as significant.)

-- 
Greg


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 00:25:40 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 22:25:40 -0700
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <52B52654.4010308@gmail.com>

On 12/20/2013 02:44 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
>> 20.12.13 16:19, Roy Smith ???????(??):
>>
>>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>
>> QBASIC$, not $QBASIC.
> 
> Or just QB$. (Most BASICs of that era only regarded
> the first two characters as significant.)

Maybe BASIC's of the 70s.  But Not QB.  QuickBasic was a pretty
impressive compiler in its day.  Completely modern, structured language.
 And a pretty impressive IDE for its day that did some pretty slick
source code navigation.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 03:06:43 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:06:43 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>

Michael Torrie wrote:
> Maybe BASIC's of the 70s.  But Not QB.  QuickBasic was a pretty
> impressive compiler in its day.  Completely modern, structured language.

I may have been thinking of GW-BASIC. There was
definitely something that was pretty much an
old-school BASIC with line numbers, GOSUBS and
all that.

-- 
Greg


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 03:17:26 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:17:26 +1100
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmocASPuMtw2xtVFm0grBm9yxhqbXV+62jvH-YW5CqezTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Michael Torrie wrote:
>>
>> Maybe BASIC's of the 70s.  But Not QB.  QuickBasic was a pretty
>> impressive compiler in its day.  Completely modern, structured language.
>
>
> I may have been thinking of GW-BASIC. There was
> definitely something that was pretty much an
> old-school BASIC with line numbers, GOSUBS and
> all that.

GW-BASIC is what you're describing. Q-BASIC isn't the same as
QuickBasic, though. Q-BASIC had subs and functions and stuff, but it
was still, at its heart, BASIC. And you could DIM something with a
type, but normally it was the adorning suffix that determined type: A$
is a string, A% is an integer, A! (or A) is float, A# is double.

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 10:46:17 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 08:46:17 -0700
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmocASPuMtw2xtVFm0grBm9yxhqbXV+62jvH-YW5CqezTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmocASPuMtw2xtVFm0grBm9yxhqbXV+62jvH-YW5CqezTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B5B7C9.3030005@gmail.com>

On 12/21/2013 01:17 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> GW-BASIC is what you're describing. Q-BASIC isn't the same as
> QuickBasic, though. Q-BASIC had subs and functions and stuff, but it
> was still, at its heart, BASIC. And you could DIM something with a
> type, but normally it was the adorning suffix that determined type: A$
> is a string, A% is an integer, A! (or A) is float, A# is double.

Yes you could use suffixes if you wanted to on QuickBasic and QBasic.

QBasic actually was the same language as QuickBasic, just that it was an
interpreter only, not a compiler.  The language itself was identical (to
ver 4.5 if I recall correctly).  If you want a trip down memory lane,
download qb64[1] for your chosen platform and have fun.  qb64 is
actually a full-blown compiler that implements almost all of the
QuickBasic/QBasic language with an integrated IDE that is a
re-implementation of the good old DOS one that was in QBasic and QuickBasic.

[1] http://qb64.net


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 19:36:54 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:36:54 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4473.1387640806.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmocASPuMtw2xtVFm0grBm9yxhqbXV+62jvH-YW5CqezTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4473.1387640806.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhmqh8FjesuU1@mid.individual.net>

Michael Torrie wrote:
> And you could DIM something with a
>>type, but normally it was the adorning suffix that determined type: A$
>>is a string, A% is an integer, A! (or A) is float, A# is double.

Some versions of 8-bit Microsoft Basic also had a way of
overriding the default type for a range of names.
So, for example, Fortran programmers could DEFINT I-N
and feel right at home.

I guess that means it would occupy a zero-crossing on
the sigil oscillation curve -- you could have it either
way.

-- 
Greg


From auriocus at gmx.de  Sat Dec 21 05:19:03 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:19:03 +0100
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>

Am 21.12.13 09:06, schrieb Gregory Ewing:
> Michael Torrie wrote:
>> Maybe BASIC's of the 70s.  But Not QB.  QuickBasic was a pretty
>> impressive compiler in its day.  Completely modern, structured language.
>
> I may have been thinking of GW-BASIC. There was
> definitely something that was pretty much an
> old-school BASIC with line numbers, GOSUBS and
> all that.
>

GW-BASIC was a weak language, but two significant characters is 
definitely too few. I think it was eight. Never used QuickBasic, I went 
Turbo Pascal instead, which had 32 significant characters.

	Christian


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Dec 21 09:43:46 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 08:43:46 -0600
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <20131221084346.5195e911@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-21 11:19, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> GW-BASIC was a weak language, but two significant characters is 
> definitely too few. I think it was eight. Never used QuickBasic, I
> went Turbo Pascal instead, which had 32 significant characters.

In know that my first BASIC, Applesoft BASIC had the 2-character
names, and you had to load Integer Basic (with Ints in addition to the
standard Floats used in the BASIC provided by the ROM, a strange
choice).  So moving to Turbo Pascal (started with a 3.x series
version, but 6.x was a major upgrade) gave me more breathing-room and
data-types than I know what to do with :-)

Then there's the 6502 assembly on that Apple with its 2 user-facing
registers (plus the Instruction Pointer and Stack Pointer), so I
guess you could say that it has 1-bit variable names ;-)

-tkc




From tim at thechases.com  Sat Dec 21 09:52:08 2013
From: tim at thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 08:52:08 -0600
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <20131221084346.5195e911@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131221084346.5195e911@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <20131221085208.4cb2aaed@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-21 08:43, Tim Chase wrote:
> Then there's the 6502 assembly on that Apple with its 2 user-facing
> registers (plus the Instruction Pointer and Stack Pointer), so I
> guess you could say that it has 1-bit variable names ;-)

Doh, forgot momentarily that the 6502 had X, Y, and A, making THREE
registers.  ooh, the luxury of 2-bit naming conventions! :-D

-tkc





From gheskett at wdtv.com  Sat Dec 21 14:05:42 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 14:05:42 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <20131221085208.4cb2aaed@bigbox.christie.dr>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131221084346.5195e911@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <20131221085208.4cb2aaed@bigbox.christie.dr>
Message-ID: <201312211405.42772.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Saturday 21 December 2013 13:57:37 Tim Chase did opine:

> On 2013-12-21 08:43, Tim Chase wrote:
> > Then there's the 6502 assembly on that Apple with its 2 user-facing
> > registers (plus the Instruction Pointer and Stack Pointer), so I
> > guess you could say that it has 1-bit variable names ;-)
> 
> Doh, forgot momentarily that the 6502 had X, Y, and A, making THREE
> registers.  ooh, the luxury of 2-bit naming conventions! :-D
> 
> -tkc

And the HD63C09EP kicks them both clear out of the game. Too bad Hitachi is 
to this day, contractually enjoined from even admitting that the new 
registers it sports, or the new, much faster instructions it supports are 
actually in the chip. Like how about a 32 bit value, divided by a 16 bit 
value, 39 clocks worst case?  In a supposedly 8 bit cpu.  Lots of little 
surprises in that 40 pin block of epoxy that was supposed to be a work-a-
like of the Motorola MC6809EP.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Be cheerful while you are alive.
		-- Phathotep, 24th Century B.C.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 19:17:01 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:17:01 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4471.1387637461.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131221084346.5195e911@bigbox.christie.dr>
 <mailman.4471.1387637461.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhmpbtFj6v4U2@mid.individual.net>

Tim Chase wrote:
> Doh, forgot momentarily that the 6502 had X, Y, and A, making THREE
> registers.  ooh, the luxury of 2-bit naming conventions! :-D

Two bits? That's enough to name FOUR registers!
We've been cheated!

-- 
Greg


From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec 21 10:59:00 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:59:00 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-867FD6.10590021122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:

> In know that my first BASIC, Applesoft BASIC had the 2-character
> names, and you had to load Integer Basic (with Ints in addition to the
> standard Floats used in the BASIC provided by the ROM, a strange
> choice).

Why is it a strange choice?  If you're only going to support a single 
type of numeric value, floats make a lot more sense than ints.  Floats 
are a superset of integers.

Javascript, anyone?


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Sat Dec 21 11:29:39 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:29:39 -0600
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-867FD6.10590021122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-867FD6.10590021122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131221102939.6585729f@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-21 10:59, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In know that my first BASIC, Applesoft BASIC had the 2-character
> > names, and you had to load Integer Basic (with Ints in addition
> > to the standard Floats used in the BASIC provided by the ROM, a
> > strange choice).  
> 
> Why is it a strange choice?  If you're only going to support a
> single type of numeric value, floats make a lot more sense than
> ints.  Floats are a superset of integers.
> 
> Javascript, anyone?

It's one thing when JS uses bajillion-bit precision on the floats.
With an 8-bit processor, the accuracy was wanting (according to
Wikipedia[1], single-precision with 8-bit exponent & 31-bit
significand), so you'd often hit cases where INT1 + INT2 *should*
equal INT3
+ INT4, but because of floating-point errors, they wouldn't.  It's
maddening to have the mathematical equivalent of

  2 + 4 != 1 + 5

manifest itself in your programs.  And even harder to explain to a
middle-schooler that I was at the time. :-/

Also, one of the main reasons to choose INTEGER BASIC on the Apple
was that was notably faster, since FP math was managed in software,
rather than in dedicated FP hardware.

-tkc


[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applesoft_basic#Background





From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 14:04:04 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 06:04:04 +1100
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-867FD6.10590021122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-867FD6.10590021122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqdZBoiz=Csi-17yXJWaQL=gUf8td8KzUugnxBH1WzDRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 2:59 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Tim Chase <python.list at tim.thechases.com> wrote:
>
>> In know that my first BASIC, Applesoft BASIC had the 2-character
>> names, and you had to load Integer Basic (with Ints in addition to the
>> standard Floats used in the BASIC provided by the ROM, a strange
>> choice).
>
> Why is it a strange choice?  If you're only going to support a single
> type of numeric value, floats make a lot more sense than ints.  Floats
> are a superset of integers.

No, reals are a superset of integers, and are also a superset of
floats. Whether a float can precisely represent every int in your pool
depends on their relative sizes; in another thread we've just had
complaints about fixed-size integers in C, but they do simplify
discussions like this!

With IEEE floating point, it's theoretically possible to represent any
integer smaller than 2**M, where M is the size of the mantissa
(including its leading 1 bit). In practical terms, that means your
float has to take up twice as much space as an int would (a 64-bit
float has a 53-bit mantissa, so it can represent 32-bit numbers -
nobody actually asks for 53-bit integer support, but you do have it).
I don't know about non-IEEE float systems, but they'll be doing
something similar.

Arbitrary precision throws a whole new spanner in the works. It's
pretty easy to offer an arbitrary-precision integer type that
guarantees accuracy down to the last digit. Offering a float type that
can represent a ridiculous range of integers is problematic. I notice
that Python offers the former and not the latter :) REXX offered
configurable-precision numeric calculations, but performance dropped
off badly as the precision rose. That is to say, it was fine for the
default 9 digits, fine for 100 digits (but now you have to format
numbers for display, or they'll be ugly), starting to get slow if you
asked for 500 digits, and really quite ridiculously slow with NUMERIC
DIGITS 10000.

I wouldn't say that most languages' float type is truly a superset of int.

ChrisA


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 19:27:48 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:27:48 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4472.1387638502.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhmq06FjbqhU1@mid.individual.net>

Tim Chase wrote:
> In know that my first BASIC, Applesoft BASIC had the 2-character
> names, and you had to load Integer Basic (with Ints in addition to the
> standard Floats used in the BASIC provided by the ROM, a strange
> choice).

That's not the way I remember it working. Integer Basic
provided only integers; Applesoft was an alternative ROM
that replaced Integer Basic and provided both float and
int variables.

But I think the only reason to use int variables (ending
with %) in Applesoft was to save memory -- they were
always converted to floats for doing arithmetic. And they
were 16-bit ints, so they had less precision than floats.

-- 
Greg


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 19:14:26 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:14:26 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4441.1387561812.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhjs20Fi7pU1@mid.individual.net>
 <mailman.4451.1387603576.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0glF7cd9U1@mid.individual.net> <l93pui$8gr$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <bhmp75Fj6v4U1@mid.individual.net>

Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> GW-BASIC was a weak language, but two significant characters is 
> definitely too few. I think it was eight.

That may have been true for MS-DOS era BASICS. If
you have a whopping 640KB for your program, then
it doesn't matter so much.

The 8-bit era was much more constrained. With only
48KB (or less, depending on how fancy a graphics
mode you wanted to use) people didn't like to use
any more chars than they strictly needed!

-- 
Greg


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 00:34:51 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 05:34:51 +0000
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>

I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that 
once C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub, 
but Python people have to stay at work testing because the compiler 
hasn't caught all potential errors.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 03:18:33 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:18:33 -0800
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_omUmHA7j0QSgUHtYPqjuyDMxtdJQUkQf2yrvrjWu9gCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>
>
> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that once
> C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub, but
> Python people have to stay at work testing because the compiler hasn't
> caught all potential errors.

Python should be used with static analysis (EG pylint), IMO, for
reliability.  Python should also be used, IMO, with a good set of
automated unit, integration and system tests.

C++ should use automated tests too, but is often used without because
the compilers make it almost reasonable to do without.  The compilers
tend to make it so you don't need static analysis, but it's so cheap
to use static analysis that it's a good idea to do so.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 03:42:00 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 08:42:00 +0000
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_omUmHA7j0QSgUHtYPqjuyDMxtdJQUkQf2yrvrjWu9gCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAGGBd_omUmHA7j0QSgUHtYPqjuyDMxtdJQUkQf2yrvrjWu9gCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l93k8i$bl7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 08:18, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>>
>>
>> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that once
>> C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub, but
>> Python people have to stay at work testing because the compiler hasn't
>> caught all potential errors.
>
> Python should be used with static analysis (EG pylint), IMO, for
> reliability.  Python should also be used, IMO, with a good set of
> automated unit, integration and system tests.
>

I use the Pydev plugin for Eclipse and have Pylint turned on so that it 
automatically checks my code as I type, just awesome.  To me your second 
sentence above goes without saying.  And add in anything that can help 
improve quality.  This recipe 
http://code.activestate.com/recipes/578793-more-strict-unittests-using-a-validator/ 
only went up yesterday, haven't checked it out in detail but the idea 
seems impressive.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 21 06:51:42 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 11:51:42 GMT
Subject: Why Python is like C++
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b580ce$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:18:33 -0800, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> C++ should use automated tests too, but is often used without because
> the compilers make it almost reasonable to do without.

For some definition of "reasonable" that I haven't come across before. 
I'd like to see the compiler that can determine which of the following 
pseudo-code functions is buggy:


# Given the length of the shadow cast when the sun is at
# angle degrees measured from the horizontal, return the
# height of the thing casting the shadow.

def calculate_height(length:float, angle:float):float;
    if not 0.0 <= angle < 90.0:
        Error, "angle out of range"
    if not length >= 0.0:
        Error, "length cannot be negative"
    return length*sin(degrees_to_radian(angle))

def calculate_height(length:float, angle:float):float;
    if not 0.0 <= angle < 90.0:
        error("angle out of range")
    if not length >= 0.0:
        error("length cannot be negative")
    return length*tan(degrees_to_radian(angle))


-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec 21 10:10:48 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:10:48 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-246789.10104821122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:34 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> 
> wrote:
> > On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
> >>
> >> http://xkcd.com/1306/
> >>
> >
> > I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that once
> > C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub, but
> > Python people have to stay at work testing because the compiler hasn't
> > caught all potential errors.
> 
> Python should be used with static analysis (EG pylint), IMO, for
> reliability.  Python should also be used, IMO, with a good set of
> automated unit, integration and system tests.
> 
> C++ should use automated tests too, but is often used without because
> the compilers make it almost reasonable to do without.  The compilers
> tend to make it so you don't need static analysis, but it's so cheap
> to use static analysis that it's a good idea to do so.

On the last large C++ project I worked on, we decided (i.e. obeyed a 
corporate mandate) to start using Coverity's static analysis tool on our 
15 year old codebase.  I learned a few things about static analysis then.

1) It finds bugs you would never find yourself.

2) If your code does tricky things, you can fool the static analyzer, 
leading to false positives.  Presumably, it also leads to false 
negatives, but you don't know about those :-(

3) If you're going to use static analysis, probably the best way is to 
start using it from day one.  Trying to duct-tape a static analysis step 
into your development process for a legacy codebase is probably more 
effort than it's worth.

4) I suspect static analysis does a lot better on a language like Java 
(which has introspection) than it does on C++.  One of the biggest 
problems is that the preprocessor means the code that compiles is not 
the code that you look at.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec 21 17:03:11 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 17:03:11 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-246789.10104821122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-246789.10104821122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l9536o$m6u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/21/2013 10:10 AM, Roy Smith wrote:

> On the last large C++ project I worked on, we decided (i.e. obeyed a
> corporate mandate) to start using Coverity's static analysis tool on our
> 15 year old codebase.  I learned a few things about static analysis then.

CPython was about that old when Coverity started giving us reports on 
the C part of CPython (about 400000 loc). CPython is now essentially 
free of errors detected by Coverity.

> 1) It finds bugs you would never find yourself.

Coverity apparently found several for CPython.

> 2) If your code does tricky things, you can fool the static analyzer,
> leading to false positives.

One can define code patterns that are false positives, to silence such 
reports.

>  Presumably, it also leads to false
> negatives, but you don't know about those :-(

We use unit tests to find logic bugs ;-).

> 3) If you're going to use static analysis, probably the best way is to
> start using it from day one.  Trying to duct-tape a static analysis step
> into your development process for a legacy codebase is probably more
> effort than it's worth.

Some of the C coders on the development team thought it *was* for 
CPython. The fact that CPython has been compiled for, say, 20 different 
systems may have meant that it already depended less on 
'implementation-defined' behavior.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec 21 17:28:49 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 17:28:49 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-246789.10104821122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4486.1387663424.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-3F84FD.17284921122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4486.1387663424.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 12/21/2013 10:10 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > On the last large C++ project I worked on, we decided (i.e. obeyed a
> > corporate mandate) to start using Coverity's static analysis tool on our
> > 15 year old codebase.  I learned a few things about static analysis then.
> 
> CPython was about that old when Coverity started giving us reports on 
> the C part of CPython (about 400000 loc). CPython is now essentially 
> free of errors detected by Coverity.

How many of those errors were real, and how many were "I suppose, 
technically, this isn't quite correct but in real life, it's just never 
going to be an issue?"  I'm not being cynical here; I'm interested to 
know if it really helped.

> > 2) If your code does tricky things, you can fool the static analyzer,
> > leading to false positives.
> 
> One can define code patterns that are false positives, to silence such 
> reports.

Yes, we did some of those.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec 21 19:20:30 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:20:30 -0500
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <roy-3F84FD.17284921122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <l9399l$dg0$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4462.1387614224.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-246789.10104821122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4486.1387663424.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-3F84FD.17284921122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l95b86$1av$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/21/2013 5:28 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4486.1387663424.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
>> On 12/21/2013 10:10 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> On the last large C++ project I worked on, we decided (i.e. obeyed a
>>> corporate mandate) to start using Coverity's static analysis tool on our
>>> 15 year old codebase.  I learned a few things about static analysis then.
>>
>> CPython was about that old when Coverity started giving us reports on
>> the C part of CPython (about 400000 loc). CPython is now essentially
>> free of errors detected by Coverity.
>
> How many of those errors were real, and how many were "I suppose,
> technically, this isn't quite correct but in real life, it's just never
> going to be an issue?"  I'm not being cynical here; I'm interested to
> know if it really helped.

http://search.gmane.org/ search gmane.comp.python.devel for 'Coverity' 
and you should get some relevant hits.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sat Dec 21 03:09:26 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 21:09:26 +1300
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4452.1387604112.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4452.1387604112.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhl0lmF7cd9U2@mid.individual.net>

Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>
> 
> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that 
> once C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub, 
> but Python people have to stay at work testing because the compiler 
> hasn't caught all potential errors.

But it takes so much longer for the C++ people to
write their program in the first place, that the
Python people often get to the pub first anyway.
And even if they don't get to the pub at all, they
enjoy what they're doing so much that they don't
care.

-- 
Greg


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 03:22:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 08:22:35 +0000
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <bhl0lmF7cd9U2@mid.individual.net>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4452.1387604112.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bhl0lmF7cd9U2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <l93j45$1r5$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 08:09, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>>
>>
>> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that
>> once C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the
>> pub, but Python people have to stay at work testing because the
>> compiler hasn't caught all potential errors.
>
> But it takes so much longer for the C++ people to
> write their program in the first place, that the
> Python people often get to the pub first anyway.
> And even if they don't get to the pub at all, they
> enjoy what they're doing so much that they don't
> care.
>

Having thought about this for all of 2ns I've come to the startling 
conclusion that I entirely agree with you.  I'm very biased though, 
suffering extremely badly from both C++phobia and Javaphobia.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 21 06:37:59 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 11:37:59 GMT
Subject: Why Python is like C++
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4452.1387604112.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b57d97$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 05:34:51 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>
>>
> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that
> once C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub,

Ah, the good ol' "It compiles, quick, ship it!" school of thought.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 07:12:47 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 12:12:47 +0000
Subject: Why Python is like C++
In-Reply-To: <52b57d97$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <roy-666C26.09193920122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4452.1387604112.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b57d97$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l940jq$as$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 11:37, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 05:34:51 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 20/12/2013 14:19, Roy Smith wrote:
>>> http://xkcd.com/1306/
>>>
>>>
>> I believe that to be a very superficial like.  They're unlike in that
>> once C++ people have compiled their code they can head down to the pub,
>
> Ah, the good ol' "It compiles, quick, ship it!" school of thought.
>

Absolutely, everybody knows that successful compilation indicates bug 
free code, which is why statically typed languages are so vastly 
superior to dynamically typed ones, hence why the latter will never 
catch on.  Or do people around here know something I don't? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 09:47:47 2013
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 06:47:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Struggling with unittest discovery - how to structure my project test
 suite
Message-ID: <8607d86e-8fcf-41ac-8da2-a8c137afe087@googlegroups.com>

I'm trying to write a project using test-first development. I've been basically following the process from "Test-Driven Web Development with Python" (excellent book, by the way) but I'm writing a command line application rather than a web app, so I'm having to modify some bits as I go along. Notably I am *not* using the django test runner.

I have my functional tests in a file in my project root at the moment - functional_tests.py. But now I need to start writing some unit tests and I need to refactor my tests into a more manageable structure.

If I create a "tests" directory with an __init__.py and "unit" and "functional" subdirectories, each with __init__.py and test_XXX.py files in them, then "python -m unittest" works (as in, it discovers my tests fine). But if I just want to run my unit tests, or just my functional tests, I can't seem to get the command line right to do that - I either get all the tests run, or none.

What's the best way of structuring my projects so that:

1. I can run all the tests easily on demand.
2. I can run just the functional or unit tests when needed.
3. I can run individual tests (or maybe just individual test modules, I don't have so many tests yet that I know how detailed I'll need to get!) without too much messing (and certainly without changing any source files!)

I know that tools like py.test or nose can probably do this sort of thing. But I don't really want to add a new testing tool to the list of things I have to learn for this project (I'm already using it to learn SQLAlchemy and colander, as well as test-driven development, so I have enough on my plate already!)

I've looked around on the web for information - there's a lot available on writing the tests themselves, but surprisingly little on how to structure a project for easy testing (unless I've just failed miserably to find the right search terms :-))

Thanks for any help,
Paul


From storchaka at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:41:40 2013
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:41:40 +0200
Subject: Struggling with unittest discovery - how to structure my project
 test suite
In-Reply-To: <8607d86e-8fcf-41ac-8da2-a8c137afe087@googlegroups.com>
References: <8607d86e-8fcf-41ac-8da2-a8c137afe087@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l91vg9$807$1@ger.gmane.org>

20.12.13 16:47, Paul Moore ???????(??):
> What's the best way of structuring my projects so that:
>
> 1. I can run all the tests easily on demand.
> 2. I can run just the functional or unit tests when needed.

python -m unittest discover -s tests/functional
python -m unittest discover tests/functional

> 3. I can run individual tests (or maybe just individual test modules, I don't have so many tests yet that I know how detailed I'll need to get!) without too much messing (and certainly without changing any source files!)

python -m unittest discover -s tests/functional -p test_spam.py
python -m unittest discover tests/functional -p test_spam.py
python -m unittest discover tests/functional test_spam.py




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec 20 16:48:28 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:48:28 -0500
Subject: Struggling with unittest discovery - how to structure my project
 test suite
In-Reply-To: <l91vg9$807$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <8607d86e-8fcf-41ac-8da2-a8c137afe087@googlegroups.com>
 <l91vg9$807$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l92dv3$eof$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/20/2013 12:41 PM, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
> 20.12.13 16:47, Paul Moore ???????(??):
>> What's the best way of structuring my projects so that:

It depends on your tradeoff between extra setup in the files and how 
much you type each time you run tests.

>> 1. I can run all the tests easily on demand.

I believe that if you copy Lib/idlelib/idle_test/__init__.py to 
tests/__main__.py and add
   import unittest; unittest.main()
then
   python -m tests
would run all your tests. Lib/idlelib/idle_test/README.py may help explain.

>> 2. I can run just the functional or unit tests when needed.
>
> python -m unittest discover -s tests/functional
> python -m unittest discover tests/functional

Ditto for __main__.py files in each, so
   python -m tests.unit (functional)
will work.

>> 3. I can run individual tests (or maybe just individual test modules,
>> I don't have so many tests yet that I know how detailed I'll need to
>> get!) without too much messing (and certainly without changing any
>> source files!)
>
> python -m unittest discover -s tests/functional -p test_spam.py
> python -m unittest discover tests/functional -p test_spam.py
> python -m unittest discover tests/functional test_spam.py

'discover' is not needed for single files.  For instance,
   python -m unittest idlelib.idle_test.test_calltips
works for me. One can extend that to test cases and methods.
python -m unittest idlelib.idle_test.test_calltips.Get_entityTest
and
python -m unittest 
idlelib.idle_test.test_calltips.Get_entityTest.test_bad_entity

If you add to each test_xyz.py file
   if __name__ == '__main__':
     unittest.main(verbosity=2)  # example of adding fixed option
then
   python -m tests.unit.test_xyz
will run the tests in that file. (So does F5 in an Idle editor, which is 
how I run individual test files while editing. I copy the  boilerplate 
from README.txt or an existing test_xyz.py file.)

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy




From p.f.moore at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 16:02:57 2013
From: p.f.moore at gmail.com (Paul Moore)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 13:02:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Struggling with unittest discovery - how to structure my project
 test suite
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4440.1387561319.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <8607d86e-8fcf-41ac-8da2-a8c137afe087@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4440.1387561319.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <57bd0551-b438-4bd8-bae0-c10f494393a3@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, 20 December 2013 17:41:40 UTC, Serhiy Storchaka  wrote:
> 20.12.13 16:47, Paul Moore ???????(??):
>
> > 1. I can run all the tests easily on demand.
> > 2. I can run just the functional or unit tests when needed.
> 
> python -m unittest discover -s tests/functional
> python -m unittest discover tests/functional

Hmm, I could have sworn I'd tried that. But you're absolutely right.

Thanks, and sorry for the waste of bandwidth...
Paul


From dec135 at msn.com  Fri Dec 20 10:16:31 2013
From: dec135 at msn.com (dec135 at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 07:16:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
Message-ID: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>

y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
print type y
y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
print type y

I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.
The second time we type print type y, how does the program knows which one of the y's it refers to ?  Is the first y object deleted ?
thanks in advance.


From random832 at fastmail.us  Fri Dec 20 10:24:35 2013
From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:24:35 -0500
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1387553075.23940.62008245.0558029B@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013, at 10:16, dec135 at msn.com wrote:
> The second time we type print type y, how does the program knows which
> one of the y's it refers to ?  Is the first y object deleted ?

y does not refer to the first object anymore after you've assigned the
second object to it. In CPython, if there are no other references to the
string object, yes it is deleted - other implementations may defer
deletion to a later time.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 10:34:20 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 07:34:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 20, 2013 8:46:31 PM UTC+5:30, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
> print type y
> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> print type y

> I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.

You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called 'equals'
have something to do with something called by the same name in math -- equations

Lets unassume that and rewrite the code

1. y ! raw_input('Enter a number:')
2. print type y
3. y ! float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
4. print type y 

Now read that 1 as first, 2 as second etc and read the '!' as 'MAKE'.
(It may help to shout it)

Now what was your question?


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 11:00:22 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:00:22 +0000
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l91pig$tpu$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 20, 2013 8:46:31 PM UTC+5:30, dec... at msn.com wrote:
>> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
>> print type y
>> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
>> print type y
>
>> I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.
>
> You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called 'equals'
> have something to do with something called by the same name in math -- equations
>

A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which 
requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading 
something like 
thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?

> Lets unassume that and rewrite the code
>
> 1. y ! raw_input('Enter a number:')
> 2. print type y
> 3. y ! float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> 4. print type y
>
> Now read that 1 as first, 2 as second etc and read the '!' as 'MAKE'.
> (It may help to shout it)
>
> Now what was your question?
>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 13:24:08 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:24:08 -0800
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <l91pig$tpu$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <l91pig$tpu$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <B6D9EFA7-72E7-4909-9D62-59781D332820@gmail.com>

On Dec 20, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading something like thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?

Or a symbol like :=. As a former Smalltalker, I still miss this as the assignment operator, and the ?gets? verbiage that went along with it. One said:

x := 4

as in ?x gets 4?

I always got a kick out of the following paragraph from http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html.

"1970 - Niklaus Wirth creates Pascal, a procedural language. Critics immediately denounce Pascal because it uses "x := x + y" syntax instead of the more familiar C-like "x = x + y". This criticism happens in spite of the fact that C has not yet been invented."

From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:10:37 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (rusi)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:10:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 20, 2013 9:30:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:
> > On Friday, December 20, 2013 8:46:31 PM UTC+5:30, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> >> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
> >> print type y
> >> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> >> print type y
> >> I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.
> > You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called 'equals'
> > have something to do with something called by the same name in math -- equations

> A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which 
> requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading 
> something like 
> thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?

Good idea. Only you were beaten to it by about 2 decades.

The language ABC calls it 'put' and corrects the unnecessary gratuitous
right to left order.
Reference
http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/abc/qr.html#COMMANDS

Examples
http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/abc/types.html

And what does that have to do with python?
http://www.onlamp.com/lpt/a/2431


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 12:29:51 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 17:29:51 +0000
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l91uqa$vd3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 20/12/2013 17:10, rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 20, 2013 9:30:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 20, 2013 8:46:31 PM UTC+5:30, dec... at msn.com wrote:
>>>> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
>>>> print type y
>>>> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
>>>> print type y
>>>> I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.
>>> You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called 'equals'
>>> have something to do with something called by the same name in math -- equations
>
>> A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which
>> requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading
>> something like
>> thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?
>
> Good idea. Only you were beaten to it by about 2 decades.

I can't find a PEP suggesting this, can you give me the number please?

>
> The language ABC calls it 'put' and corrects the unnecessary gratuitous
> right to left order.

So does it go top to bottom or bottom to top?  Or to really clarify 
things does it have putlr, putrl, puttb and putbt?

> Reference
> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/abc/qr.html#COMMANDS
>
> Examples
> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/abc/types.html
>
> And what does that have to do with python?
> http://www.onlamp.com/lpt/a/2431
>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From dihedral88888 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:59:57 2013
From: dihedral88888 at gmail.com (88888 Dihedral)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:59:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9a1b92a6-ab76-42ab-9ffc-b1f6a0b85a9c@googlegroups.com>

On Saturday, December 21, 2013 1:10:37 AM UTC+8, rusi wrote:
> On Friday, December 20, 2013 9:30:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:
> 
> > > On Friday, December 20, 2013 8:46:31 PM UTC+5:30, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> 
> > >> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
> 
> > >> print type y
> 
> > >> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> 
> > >> print type y
> 
> > >> I'm assuming that y is an object. I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects because they have different types.
> 
Well, in Python the assignment 
operation = of a variable named y 
in the LHS to the object of the RHS
result is more complicated 
than = in those register basd 
low level languages designed for 
fast execution speeds in compiled 
machine codes without an auto GC 
bundled with the interpreter 
in the run time.







From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Fri Dec 20 16:56:38 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:56:38 +1300
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bhjsooFmprU1@mid.individual.net>

rusi wrote:
> Good idea. Only you were beaten to it by about 2 decades.

More than 2, I think.

Lisp: (setq x y)

Algol: x := y

Smalltalk: x <- y (where <- is a "left arrow" character)

Cobol: MOVE X TO Y

-- 
Greg


From duncan.booth at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 23 03:19:02 2013
From: duncan.booth at invalid.invalid (Duncan Booth)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 08:19:02 GMT
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <e283ae0a-47c2-4579-b8c3-801798bdfce7@googlegroups.com>
 <bhjsooFmprU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <XnsA29DC6900AE79duncanbooth@127.0.0.1>

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:

> rusi wrote:
>> Good idea. Only you were beaten to it by about 2 decades.
> 
> More than 2, I think.
> 
> Algol: x := y

Wher := is pronounced 'becomes'.

-- 
Duncan Booth http://kupuguy.blogspot.com


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 21 07:58:41 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 12:58:41 GMT
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b59081$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:00:22 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:

>> You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called
>> 'equals' have something to do with something called by the same name in
>> math -- equations
>>
>>
> A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which
> requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading
> something like
> thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?

That's an excellent idea, and I look forward to reading the PEP.



-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 13:39:14 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 05:39:14 +1100
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <imhbb9lnj7dqtv4614kol8vcag4vfhedvf@4ax.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b59081$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <imhbb9lnj7dqtv4614kol8vcag4vfhedvf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmratHaZV18MOrDA=-aD+oTCbXU9bJLvZ9m4wuhSHPgmDQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> (heh, the spell-checker suggests that
> "thefullyqualifiednameontheleftafteranysubexpressionshavebeenevaluatedisattachedt"
> should be replaced with "textually")

The spell-checker was scratching its head and going "I'm pretty sure
this isn't right, but I don't know enough of what it says to be sure
it's quite wrong!" and eventually gave up trying to understand you,
and just picked a word kinda like some of the letters and said "Here,
have this as a suggestion, I'm off to the pub. You don't pay me enough
to check words like that.".

ChrisA


From gheskett at wdtv.com  Sat Dec 21 14:08:46 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 14:08:46 -0500
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmratHaZV18MOrDA=-aD+oTCbXU9bJLvZ9m4wuhSHPgmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <imhbb9lnj7dqtv4614kol8vcag4vfhedvf@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmratHaZV18MOrDA=-aD+oTCbXU9bJLvZ9m4wuhSHPgmDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201312211408.46938.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Saturday 21 December 2013 14:08:02 Chris Angelico did opine:

> On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 3:54 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
> 
> <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > (heh, the spell-checker suggests that
> > "thefullyqualifiednameontheleftafteranysubexpressionshavebeenevaluated
> > isattachedt" should be replaced with "textually")
> 
> The spell-checker was scratching its head and going "I'm pretty sure
> this isn't right, but I don't know enough of what it says to be sure
> it's quite wrong!" and eventually gave up trying to understand you,
> and just picked a word kinda like some of the letters and said "Here,
> have this as a suggestion, I'm off to the pub. You don't pay me enough
> to check words like that.".
> 
> ChrisA

Lurking on this list is worth it just for the entertainment value, thanks 
Chris. :)

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

The heart is wiser than the intellect.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 14:17:16 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:17:16 +0000
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <imhbb9lnj7dqtv4614kol8vcag4vfhedvf@4ax.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b59081$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <imhbb9lnj7dqtv4614kol8vcag4vfhedvf@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l94pfn$j3b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 16:54, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2013 12:58:41 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:00:22 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/12/2013 15:34, rusi wrote:
>>
>>>> You are also assuming that the two horizontal lines sometimes called
>>>> 'equals' have something to do with something called by the same name in
>>>> math -- equations
>>>>
>>>>
>>> A good point.  Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which
>>> requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading
>>> something like
>>> thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?
>>
>> That's an excellent idea, and I look forward to reading the PEP.
>
> 	-1 vote... It still has the problematic "assigned" term...
>
> 	I'd suggest:
> thefullyqualifiednameontheleftafteranysubexpressionshavebeenevaluatedisattachedtotheobjectresultingfromevaluationoftheexpressionontheright
>
> (heh, the spell-checker suggests that
> "thefullyqualifiednameontheleftafteranysubexpressionshavebeenevaluatedisattachedt"
> should be replaced with "textually")
>

Well you can write the PEP then :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From wuwei23 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 20:31:44 2013
From: wuwei23 at gmail.com (alex23)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:31:44 +1000
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
 <c2a5eae4-5caa-4ca1-b66d-5bbeb1edd261@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4437.1387555241.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l983pv$sp5$1@dont-email.me>

On 21/12/2013 2:00 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Shall I write a PEP asking for a language change which
> requires that that stupid = sign is replaced by a keyword reading
> something like
> thenameonthelefthandsideisassignedtheobjectontherighthandside ?

I propose:

     tag <obj> with <name>


From bgailer at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 12:02:18 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:02:18 -0500
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B4781A.1000407@gmail.com>

On 12/20/2013 10:16 AM, dec135 at msn.com wrote:
> print type y
That line will give you a syntax error.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 20 13:06:57 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 10:06:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <a9b4dfa4-7941-4371-ba8c-c4700a3d4dda@googlegroups.com>

On 12/20/2013 08:16 AM, dec135 at msn.com wrote:
> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
> print type y
> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> print type y
> 
> I'm assuming that y is an object.

Rather than thinking that y "is" an object, it is more accurate
to think of it as: y is a name that is "bound" to (ie, refers to, 
points to) an object.

So, raw_input() creates a string object and returns it.  Your 
first assignment statement binds that string object to the name
"y".  From now on, when you refer to "y" you will get that
string object.

When python executes your 3rd line, raw_input() creates a new
string object, completely separate from the earlier one.  This
object is passed to float().  Float() reads it and creates a
new float object and returns it.  When python then executes 
your second assignment statement, it changes the binding of "y"
to point to the float object; the old binding to the string 
object is lost.  From now on, when you refer to "y" you will 
get the float object.

> I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different
> objects because they have different types. 

Yes, they are different objects.  But not because they have 
different types; they are different because every time python
creates a new object it is distinct from other objects [*1].

> The second time we type
> print type y, how does the program knows which one of the y's it
> refers to ?  

Because there is only one name "y", and when python executed
your second assignment statement, it changed the object that
the name y pointed to from the first (string) object to the 
second (float) one.

> Is the first y object deleted ? thanks in advance.

Yes.  If there is no way that the first object can be accessed 
any more, then it will be deleted.  The same thing happened to 
the string object return by raw_input() in your 3rd statement
(which never had a name at all).

----
[*1] My statement was an oversimplification.  There are some 
cases where Python will return the same object such as interned
objects and objects like None for which there is only ever a 
single instance in a Python program.


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Dec 20 16:56:10 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 16:56:10 -0500
Subject: Newbie question. Are those different objects ?
In-Reply-To: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
References: <af844bcf-ed55-42da-8a9f-b8270dcc4028@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l92edh$k1r$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/20/2013 10:16 AM, dec135 at msn.com wrote:
> y = raw_input('Enter a number:')
> print type y
> y = float(raw_input('Enter a number:'))
> print type y

I recommend starting with 3.3 unless your are forced to use 2.x.
I also recommend trying code before posting it.

> I'm assuming that y is an object.

The name 'y' is bound to an object. The second assignment rebinds 'y' to 
a different object.

> I'm also assuming that the second and the first y are different objects

It depends on whether by 'y' you mean the name, which remains the same, 
or the object it is bound to, which changes.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 10:37:09 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:37:09 +0000
Subject: wxPython latest
Message-ID: <l91o6v$ca9$1@ger.gmane.org>

As wxPython was mentioned a week ago some of you may be interested in 
these http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.wxpython.devel/5680 
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.wxpython.devel/5675

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From brian.m.bruggeman at gmail.com  Fri Dec 20 16:26:10 2013
From: brian.m.bruggeman at gmail.com (Brian Bruggeman)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:26:10 -0600
Subject: @property simultaneous setter and getter
Message-ID: <C1F5DCEF-67D1-410B-9900-C2866AD7882C@gmail.com>

Is this something that would be pep-able?

https://gist.github.com/brianbruggeman/8061774

Thanks in advance.

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From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Dec 21 05:14:37 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:14:37 +0100
Subject: @property simultaneous setter and getter
References: <C1F5DCEF-67D1-410B-9900-C2866AD7882C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l93pm0$u3u$1@ger.gmane.org>

Brian Bruggeman wrote:

> Is this something that would be pep-able?
> 
> https://gist.github.com/brianbruggeman/8061774

There's no need to put such a small piece of code into an external 
repository.

> class someAwesomeClass(object):
>     """ an example """
>     
>     @property
>     def some_attr(self, value=None):
>         """
>         Implementation of a setter and getter property in one
>         """
>         attr = "__local_attr__"
>         if not hasattr(self, attr):
>             setattr(self, attr, value)
>         if (value != None and hasattr(self, attr)):
>             setattr(self, attr, value)
>         return getattr(self, attr)

If I were to implement something like this I'd probably use the old trick 
with nested functions:

def getset(f):
    funcs = f()
    return property(funcs.get("get"), funcs.get("set"))

class A(object):
    @getset
    def attr():
        def get(self):
            print("accessing attr")
            return self._attr
        def set(self, value):
            print("setting attr to {}".format(value))
            self._attr = value
        return locals()

if __name__ == "__main__":
    a = A()
    a.attr = 42
    print(a.attr)

This has been around awhile, but I don't see widespread adoption...



From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 07:07:35 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 04:07:35 -0800
Subject: @property simultaneous setter and getter
In-Reply-To: <l93pm0$u3u$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <C1F5DCEF-67D1-410B-9900-C2866AD7882C@gmail.com>
 <l93pm0$u3u$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CABicbJJep63rNN2UV0R5S2gKqrDskZB3ukW+As-kc=tQ=Q0H_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 2:14 AM, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> If I were to implement something like this I'd probably use the old trick
> with nested functions:
>
> def getset(f):
>     funcs = f()
>     return property(funcs.get("get"), funcs.get("set"))
>
> class A(object):
>     @getset
>     def attr():
>         def get(self):
>             print("accessing attr")
>             return self._attr
>         def set(self, value):
>             print("setting attr to {}".format(value))
>             self._attr = value
>         return locals()
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>     a = A()
>     a.attr = 42
>     print(a.attr)
>
> This has been around awhile, but I don't see widespread adoption...

IMO: Because classes are the normal way of grouping functions together
in Python.

In fact, we already have an interface for these classes: the
descriptor protocol. Unfortunately it's pretty annoying to define
"properties" directly using the descriptor protocol, because its
__get__ is weird and difficult to remember how to make work correctly.
Also because the decorator making this convenient has been vanished in
python 3. ;)

class A(object):
    _attr = None

    @apply
    class attr(object):
        def __get__(self, instance, owner):
            if instance is None:
                return self

            print "accessing attr"
            return instance._attr

        def __set__(self, instance, value):
            print "setting attr to {}".format(value)
            instance._attr = value

a = A()
a.attr
a.attr = 42


A().attr
A().attr = 3

-- Devin


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 21 06:31:22 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 11:31:22 GMT
Subject: @property simultaneous setter and getter
References: <mailman.4464.1387618739.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b57c09$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:26:10 -0600, Brian Bruggeman wrote:

> Is this something that would be pep-able?

I don't know. What is it? I'm sure your code is the most fabulous, 
awesome and brilliant thing since Grace Hopper came up with FORmula 
TRANslation back in the 1950s, but my browser has over eighty tabs open 
at the moment, give me a reason why I ought to open one more.


> https://gist.github.com/brianbruggeman/8061774

If you aren't willing or able to spend a sentence or three explaining 
what your code does, what need it fulfils, and why it ought to be 
included in Python, you're going to have real bad time trying to persuade 
the hard-nosed, conservative core developers. Trust me, I know what I am 
talking about, I am the author of a successful PEP:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0450/

and that was for something which already had at least two of the most 
respected core developers' support before I even started. So before you 
go to the effort of writing a PEP, how about you try to justify your 
proposal here?



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 07:09:00 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 12:09:00 +0000
Subject: @property simultaneous setter and getter
In-Reply-To: <52b57c09$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4464.1387618739.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b57c09$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l940cn$tlk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 11:31, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:26:10 -0600, Brian Bruggeman wrote:
>
>> Is this something that would be pep-able?
>
> I don't know. What is it? I'm sure your code is the most fabulous,
> awesome and brilliant thing since Grace Hopper came up with FORmula
> TRANslation back in the 1950s, but my browser has over eighty tabs open
> at the moment, give me a reason why I ought to open one more.
>

I was under the impression that she was more associated with COBOL but 
never mind.

>
>> https://gist.github.com/brianbruggeman/8061774
>
> If you aren't willing or able to spend a sentence or three explaining
> what your code does, what need it fulfils, and why it ought to be
> included in Python, you're going to have real bad time trying to persuade
> the hard-nosed, conservative core developers. Trust me, I know what I am
> talking about, I am the author of a successful PEP:
>
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0450/
>
> and that was for something which already had at least two of the most
> respected core developers' support before I even started. So before you
> go to the effort of writing a PEP, how about you try to justify your
> proposal here?
>

Nail struck firmly on head I reckon.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Dec 21 16:42:33 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 16:42:33 -0500
Subject: Hopper and Backus (was Re: @property simultaneous setter and getter)
In-Reply-To: <c0ibb99k3rit5e13bj17sfod7rq88codj4@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.4464.1387618739.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b57c09$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <c0ibb99k3rit5e13bj17sfod7rq88codj4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l95201$ath$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/21/2013 11:59 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2013 11:31:22 GMT, Steven D'Aprano

>> I don't know. What is it? I'm sure your code is the most fabulous,
>> awesome and brilliant thing since Grace Hopper came up with FORmula
>> TRANslation back in the 1950s,

> As I recall, Grace Hopper was involved in COmmon Business Oriented
> Language.

Yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_hopper

Somehow, I had the same impression as Steven.

 > FORTRAN credit goes to John Backus (the B in BNF notation)

He assembled and directed the team (at IBM, it appears).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Backus

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 20:06:08 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 01:06:08 +0000
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
Message-ID: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org>

Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#bytearray

"The bytearray type is a mutable sequence of integers in the range 0 <= 
x < 256."

Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#bytes-methods

"Whenever a bytes or bytearray method needs to interpret the bytes as 
characters (e.g. the is...() methods, split(), strip()), the ASCII 
character set is assumed (text strings use Unicode semantics).

Note - Using these ASCII based methods to manipulate binary data that is 
not stored in an ASCII based format may lead to data corruption.

The search operations (in, count(), find(), index(), rfind() and 
rindex()) all accept both integers in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as 
well as bytes and byte array sequences.

Changed in version 3.3: All of the search methods also accept an integer 
in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as their first argument."

I don't understand why the docs talk about "a mutable sequence of 
integers" but then discuss "needs to interpret the bytes as characters". 
  Further I don't understand why the changes done in 3.3 referred to 
above haven't also been applied to (say) the split method.  If I can 
call find to look for a zero, why can't I split on it?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 20 20:58:33 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 20:58:33 -0500
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
In-Reply-To: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/20/13 8:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#bytearray
>
> "The bytearray type is a mutable sequence of integers in the range 0 <=
> x < 256."
>
> Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#bytes-methods
>
> "Whenever a bytes or bytearray method needs to interpret the bytes as
> characters (e.g. the is...() methods, split(), strip()), the ASCII
> character set is assumed (text strings use Unicode semantics).
>
> Note - Using these ASCII based methods to manipulate binary data that is
> not stored in an ASCII based format may lead to data corruption.
>
> The search operations (in, count(), find(), index(), rfind() and
> rindex()) all accept both integers in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as
> well as bytes and byte array sequences.
>
> Changed in version 3.3: All of the search methods also accept an integer
> in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as their first argument."
>
> I don't understand why the docs talk about "a mutable sequence of
> integers" but then discuss "needs to interpret the bytes as characters".

The split and strip methods work with whitespace when given no 
arguments.  Bytes aren't whitespace.  Characters can be, so the bytes 
need to be interpreted as characters.  Likewise, the is* methods 
(isalnum, isalpha, isdigit, islower, isspace, istitle, isupper) all 
require characters, so the bytes must be interpreted.

>   Further I don't understand why the changes done in 3.3 referred to
> above haven't also been applied to (say) the split method.  If I can
> call find to look for a zero, why can't I split on it?
>

I don't know the reason, but I would guess either no one considered it, 
or it was deemed unlikely to be useful.

If you have a zero, you can split on it with: 
bytestring.split(bytes([0])), but that doesn't explain why find can take 
a simple zero, and split has to take a bytestring with a zero in it.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 20 21:31:48 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 02:31:48 +0000
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
In-Reply-To: <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org> <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l92uif$fr9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 01:58, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/20/13 8:06 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#bytearray
>>
>> "The bytearray type is a mutable sequence of integers in the range 0 <=
>> x < 256."
>>
>> Quoting from http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#bytes-methods
>>
>> "Whenever a bytes or bytearray method needs to interpret the bytes as
>> characters (e.g. the is...() methods, split(), strip()), the ASCII
>> character set is assumed (text strings use Unicode semantics).
>>
>> Note - Using these ASCII based methods to manipulate binary data that is
>> not stored in an ASCII based format may lead to data corruption.
>>
>> The search operations (in, count(), find(), index(), rfind() and
>> rindex()) all accept both integers in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as
>> well as bytes and byte array sequences.
>>
>> Changed in version 3.3: All of the search methods also accept an integer
>> in the range 0 to 255 (inclusive) as their first argument."
>>
>> I don't understand why the docs talk about "a mutable sequence of
>> integers" but then discuss "needs to interpret the bytes as characters".
>
> The split and strip methods work with whitespace when given no
> arguments.  Bytes aren't whitespace.  Characters can be, so the bytes
> need to be interpreted as characters.  Likewise, the is* methods
> (isalnum, isalpha, isdigit, islower, isspace, istitle, isupper) all
> require characters, so the bytes must be interpreted.
>
>>   Further I don't understand why the changes done in 3.3 referred to
>> above haven't also been applied to (say) the split method.  If I can
>> call find to look for a zero, why can't I split on it?
>>
>
> I don't know the reason, but I would guess either no one considered it,
> or it was deemed unlikely to be useful.

Explanation, or lack of it, here http://bugs.python.org/issue12170

>
> If you have a zero, you can split on it with:
> bytestring.split(bytes([0])), but that doesn't explain why find can take
> a simple zero, and split has to take a bytestring with a zero in it.
>

I now have working code as a result of the above paragraph, thanks for 
that :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 07:29:14 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 12:29:14 +0000
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
In-Reply-To: <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org> <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l941il$9v9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 01:58, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>
> If you have a zero, you can split on it with:
> bytestring.split(bytes([0])), but that doesn't explain why find can take
> a simple zero, and split has to take a bytestring with a zero in it.
>

Create a bytearray(range(256)) and partition it on 128.  I'd expect to 
see the original effectively cut in half with 128 as the separator.  You 
actually get the original with two empty bytearrays, which makes no 
sense to me at all.

I also looked in test_bytes.py, read as far as "XXX This is a mess" and 
promptly gave up.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Dec 21 08:20:46 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 14:20:46 +0100
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org> <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l941il$9v9$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l944iu$4a7$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 21/12/2013 01:58, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>
>> If you have a zero, you can split on it with:
>> bytestring.split(bytes([0])), but that doesn't explain why find can take
>> a simple zero, and split has to take a bytestring with a zero in it.
>>
> 
> Create a bytearray(range(256)) and partition it on 128.  I'd expect to
> see the original effectively cut in half with 128 as the separator.  You
> actually get the original with two empty bytearrays, which makes no
> sense to me at all.

>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(0)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ValueError: empty separator
>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(1)
(bytearray(b'alpha'), bytearray(b'\x00'), bytearray(b'\x00\x00beta'))
>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(2)
(bytearray(b'alpha'), bytearray(b'\x00\x00'), bytearray(b'\x00beta'))

suggests that there is an implicit cast to bytearray

>>> bytearray(0)
bytearray(b'')
>>> bytearray(2)
bytearray(b'\x00\x00')

While consistent I don't see how this can ever be the desired behaviour and 
recommend that you file a bug report.
 
> I also looked in test_bytes.py, read as far as "XXX This is a mess" and
> promptly gave up.
 




From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 14:53:41 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:53:41 +0000
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
In-Reply-To: <l944iu$4a7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org> <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <l941il$9v9$1@ger.gmane.org> <l944iu$4a7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l94rk1$dvm$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 13:20, Peter Otten wrote:
> Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> On 21/12/2013 01:58, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>>
>>> If you have a zero, you can split on it with:
>>> bytestring.split(bytes([0])), but that doesn't explain why find can take
>>> a simple zero, and split has to take a bytestring with a zero in it.
>>>
>>
>> Create a bytearray(range(256)) and partition it on 128.  I'd expect to
>> see the original effectively cut in half with 128 as the separator.  You
>> actually get the original with two empty bytearrays, which makes no
>> sense to me at all.
>
>>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(0)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> ValueError: empty separator
>>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(1)
> (bytearray(b'alpha'), bytearray(b'\x00'), bytearray(b'\x00\x00beta'))
>>>> bytearray(b"alpha\x00\x00\x00beta").partition(2)
> (bytearray(b'alpha'), bytearray(b'\x00\x00'), bytearray(b'\x00beta'))
>
> suggests that there is an implicit cast to bytearray
>
>>>> bytearray(0)
> bytearray(b'')
>>>> bytearray(2)
> bytearray(b'\x00\x00')
>
> While consistent I don't see how this can ever be the desired behaviour and
> recommend that you file a bug report.
>

http://bugs.python.org/issue20047

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sat Dec 21 08:13:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 21 Dec 2013 13:13:56 GMT
Subject: bytearray inconsistencies?
References: <l92phr$3b2$1@ger.gmane.org> <l92sju$ugd$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4469.1387628971.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b59414$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 21 Dec 2013 12:29:14 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Create a bytearray(range(256)) and partition it on 128.  I'd expect to
> see the original effectively cut in half with 128 as the separator.  You
> actually get the original with two empty bytearrays, which makes no
> sense to me at all.

I reckon that is a bug. Consider this smaller example:


py> ba = bytearray(range(8))
py> ba
bytearray(b'\x00\x01\x02\x03\x04\x05\x06\x07')
py> 3 in ba
True
py> ba.find(3) == ba.index(3) == ba.find(b'\x03')
True
py> ba.partition(b'\x03')
(bytearray(b'\x00\x01\x02'), bytearray(b'\x03'), bytearray(b'\x04\x05\x06
\x07'))
py> ba.partition(3)
(bytearray(b'\x00\x01\x02\x03\x04\x05\x06\x07'), bytearray(b''), bytearray
(b''))



-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 02:16:19 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:16:19 +0000
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
Message-ID: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>

The subject refers to the list sort method given here 
http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the 
"*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() 
accepts two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 02:20:59 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 23:20:59 -0800
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The subject refers to the list sort method given here
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the
> "*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() accepts
> two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?

It's good practice in technical writing to repeat yourself: once in
the formal spec, and once in plain english. I don't see why this would
be a typo.

-- Devin


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 02:24:30 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:24:30 +0000
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l93fn7$48i$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 07:20, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> The subject refers to the list sort method given here
>> http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the
>> "*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() accepts
>> two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?
>
> It's good practice in technical writing to repeat yourself: once in
> the formal spec, and once in plain english. I don't see why this would
> be a typo.
>
> -- Devin
>

So what is it actually saying?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 02:35:20 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 18:35:20 +1100
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <l93fn7$48i$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l93fn7$48i$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoDS+g-6SEKrbfZ0t6H+743OB8qu=V0nfo=u3ore0vhfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21/12/2013 07:20, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The subject refers to the list sort method given here
>>> http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the
>>> "*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() accepts
>>> two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?
>>
>>
>> It's good practice in technical writing to repeat yourself: once in
>> the formal spec, and once in plain english. I don't see why this would
>> be a typo.
>>
>> -- Devin
>>
>
> So what is it actually saying?

def func(x, y, *moreargs, foo, bar):
    pass

Any positional args after x and y will go into moreargs, so foo and
bar have to be specified by keywords. (And are mandatory, since I
didn't default them.) If moreargs isn't given a name, then additional
positional args are forbidden, but the requirements on foo and bar are
the same.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 21 02:59:49 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 07:59:49 +0000
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoDS+g-6SEKrbfZ0t6H+743OB8qu=V0nfo=u3ore0vhfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l93fn7$48i$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoDS+g-6SEKrbfZ0t6H+743OB8qu=V0nfo=u3ore0vhfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l93hpe$kka$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 21/12/2013 07:35, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/12/2013 07:20, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The subject refers to the list sort method given here
>>>> http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the
>>>> "*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() accepts
>>>> two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?
>>>
>>>
>>> It's good practice in technical writing to repeat yourself: once in
>>> the formal spec, and once in plain english. I don't see why this would
>>> be a typo.
>>>
>>> -- Devin
>>>
>>
>> So what is it actually saying?
>
> def func(x, y, *moreargs, foo, bar):
>      pass
>
> Any positional args after x and y will go into moreargs, so foo and
> bar have to be specified by keywords. (And are mandatory, since I
> didn't default them.) If moreargs isn't given a name, then additional
> positional args are forbidden, but the requirements on foo and bar are
> the same.
>
> ChrisA
>

Thanks, you learn something new every day.  Or, at my age, you relearn 
something you've forgotten :)  Now where was I...

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 03:04:50 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 19:04:50 +1100
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <l93hpe$kka$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CABicbJ+KhPzuyE9rXQ-6kgtgcDvMtN=X3RrNTp3a3pERrx5CEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l93fn7$48i$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoDS+g-6SEKrbfZ0t6H+743OB8qu=V0nfo=u3ore0vhfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l93hpe$kka$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqJMgn9wd7OYvjXuAOy+pAU6YWM4Nt73+jwfVpRB5Srqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Now where was I...

Australia!

ChrisA

[1] http://www.princessbride.8m.com/script.htm


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 02:20:10 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 18:20:10 +1100
Subject: sort(*, key=None, reverse=None)
In-Reply-To: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l93f7t$a2$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqaWgM+cY1Jfc_PJuKF26f_O2pZXTU0H_xFJZa7TBCR2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> The subject refers to the list sort method given here
> http://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#list.  I believe that the
> "*," bit is simply a typo, given that the docs also state "sort() accepts
> two arguments that can only be passed by keyword".  Am I correct?

The *, means that they're keyword-only arguments. It prevents you from
passing them positionally.

ChrisA


From jonas.thornvall at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 13:30:04 2013
From: jonas.thornvall at gmail.com (jonas.thornvall at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 10:30:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Line based graphic in canvas (vectorgraphic?) scale incorrectly on
 HDMI monitor.
Message-ID: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>

Is there a way to make linebased graphic used in canvas scale correct on any monitor?

I run in 1920*1080 on a Philips TV used as monitor does it matter, lines tend to get longer vertical then horizontal?

Strange is i really do not see it writing out recangles.









From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sat Dec 21 14:03:17 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 14:03:17 -0500
Subject: Line based graphic in canvas (vectorgraphic?) scale incorrectly
 on HDMI monitor.
In-Reply-To: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>
References: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l94ol8$esv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/21/13 1:30 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
> Is there a way to make linebased graphic used in canvas scale correct on any monitor?
>
> I run in 1920*1080 on a Philips TV used as monitor does it matter, lines tend to get longer vertical then horizontal?
>
> Strange is i really do not see it writing out recangles.

I'm not sure how we can help without seeing any code.  There's no 
information here that we can use to make a concrete suggestion.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From jonas.thornvall at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 14:12:28 2013
From: jonas.thornvall at gmail.com (jonas.thornvall at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 11:12:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Line based graphic in canvas (vectorgraphic?) scale incorrectly
 on HDMI monitor.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4478.1387652628.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4478.1387652628.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <dc9d78cb-ea5a-4801-bb38-56c6de1bea18@googlegroups.com>

Den l?rdagen den 21:e december 2013 kl. 20:03:17 UTC+1 skrev Ned Batchelder:
> On 12/21/13 1:30 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > Is there a way to make linebased graphic used in canvas scale correct on any monitor?
> 
> >
> 
> > I run in 1920*1080 on a Philips TV used as monitor does it matter, lines tend to get longer vertical then horizontal?
> 
> >
> 
> > Strange is i really do not see it writing out recangles.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how we can help without seeing any code.  There's no 
> 
> information here that we can use to make a concrete suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
A vertical and horisontal line of same length will be plottet out like this.
There is really no code to show yet, i just write out some lines and noted that writing out a verital line of length 400 is longer then a horisontal line of same length e.g.

line(100,100,500,100); is shorter
line(300,100,300,500); is longer

__________
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |
    |


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sat Dec 21 14:56:54 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 14:56:54 -0500
Subject: Line based graphic in canvas (vectorgraphic?) scale incorrectly
 on HDMI monitor.
In-Reply-To: <dc9d78cb-ea5a-4801-bb38-56c6de1bea18@googlegroups.com>
References: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4478.1387652628.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dc9d78cb-ea5a-4801-bb38-56c6de1bea18@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l94rpp$e7h$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/21/13 2:12 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
> Den l?rdagen den 21:e december 2013 kl. 20:03:17 UTC+1 skrev Ned Batchelder:
>> On 12/21/13 1:30 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a way to make linebased graphic used in canvas scale correct on any monitor?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> I run in 1920*1080 on a Philips TV used as monitor does it matter, lines tend to get longer vertical then horizontal?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Strange is i really do not see it writing out recangles.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure how we can help without seeing any code.  There's no
>>
>> information here that we can use to make a concrete suggestion.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
> A vertical and horisontal line of same length will be plottet out like this.
> There is really no code to show yet, i just write out some lines and noted that writing out a verital line of length 400 is longer then a horisontal line of same length e.g.
>
> line(100,100,500,100); is shorter
> line(300,100,300,500); is longer
>
> __________
>      |
>      |
>      |
>      |
>      |
>      |
>

Sounds like you don't have square pixels.  Either use a monitor which 
does, or adjust your coordinates to take the shape of the pixel into 
account, or try different resolution settings to see if one of them does 
have square pixels.  Also, the settings on the monitor matter also, you 
may be able to adjust them to correct the shape of the pixel.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From jonas.thornvall at gmail.com  Sat Dec 21 15:57:13 2013
From: jonas.thornvall at gmail.com (jonas.thornvall at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 12:57:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Line based graphic in canvas (vectorgraphic?) scale incorrectly
 on HDMI monitor.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4483.1387655823.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <5d549db4-439c-4441-afe8-601a86cd0388@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4478.1387652628.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <dc9d78cb-ea5a-4801-bb38-56c6de1bea18@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4483.1387655823.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <29a0ad01-8cbf-45c1-8475-998be8709696@googlegroups.com>

Den l?rdagen den 21:e december 2013 kl. 20:56:54 UTC+1 skrev Ned Batchelder:
> On 12/21/13 2:12 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > Den l???rdagen den 21:e december 2013 kl. 20:03:17 UTC+1 skrev Ned Batchelder:
> 
> >> On 12/21/13 1:30 PM, jonas.thornvall at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> Is there a way to make linebased graphic used in canvas scale correct on any monitor?
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> I run in 1920*1080 on a Philips TV used as monitor does it matter, lines tend to get longer vertical then horizontal?
> 
> >>
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> Strange is i really do not see it writing out recangles.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I'm not sure how we can help without seeing any code.  There's no
> 
> >>
> 
> >> information here that we can use to make a concrete suggestion.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> --
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
> 
> > A vertical and horisontal line of same length will be plottet out like this.
> 
> > There is really no code to show yet, i just write out some lines and noted that writing out a verital line of length 400 is longer then a horisontal line of same length e.g.
> 
> >
> 
> > line(100,100,500,100); is shorter
> 
> > line(300,100,300,500); is longer
> 
> >
> 
> > __________
> 
> >      |
> 
> >      |
> 
> >      |
> 
> >      |
> 
> >      |
> 
> >      |
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you don't have square pixels.  Either use a monitor which 
> 
> does, or adjust your coordinates to take the shape of the pixel into 
> 
> account, or try different resolution settings to see if one of them does 
> 
> have square pixels.  Also, the settings on the monitor matter also, you 
> 
> may be able to adjust them to correct the shape of the pixel.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

It is weird because it seem to be compensated writing out rectangles, but not for linegraphics.


From davidaltrows at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec 21 23:26:08 2013
From: davidaltrows at yahoo.ca (Downright Trows)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:26:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: fefe
Message-ID: <240bd644-ce6e-4b14-924b-1c219e0b1bfa@googlegroups.com>

fefwfewfwefwe


From davidaltrows at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec 21 23:24:20 2013
From: davidaltrows at yahoo.ca (Downright Trows)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:24:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pygame vector handling?
Message-ID: <700e3de7-c22d-4be0-96db-ec6e00e35441@googlegroups.com>

I'm trying to pass a vector for the pygame function pygame.transform.rotate The only issue is that this doesn't work and I'm in grade 10 and haven't done the trig unit yet :L 

Does anyone know a workaround? here is my code if it will help http://pastebin.com/FZQB5eux
here is a link to the pygame transform function http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/transform.html
Thank you anyone who is kind enough to attempt to help me.


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Sun Dec 22 01:41:52 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 22:41:52 -0800
Subject: Pygame vector handling?
In-Reply-To: <700e3de7-c22d-4be0-96db-ec6e00e35441@googlegroups.com>
References: <700e3de7-c22d-4be0-96db-ec6e00e35441@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B689B0.2000108@islandtraining.com>

On 12/21/2013 08:24 PM, Downright Trows wrote:
> I'm trying to pass a vector for the pygame function pygame.transform.rotate The only issue is that this doesn't work and I'm in grade 10 and haven't done the trig unit yet :L
>
> Does anyone know a workaround? here is my code if it will help http://pastebin.com/FZQB5eux
> here is a link to the pygame transform function http://www.pygame.org/docs/ref/transform.html
> Thank you anyone who is kind enough to attempt to help me.

Welcome to programming in  Python!   Please tell us what you want to do, 
what you tried, and how it failed.  Without that information, it's 
impossible to tell what you are asking.

More specifically:

  * The rotate function does not take a vector as an argument so I don't
    know what you mean by "trying to pass a vector for the pygame
    function ....
  * "It doesn't work" tells us nothing.  What error message, or what
    incorrect results?
  * I'm not likely to read your hundred+ lines of code trying to find a
    bug.  Please reduce you question to one or several lines of code,
    what you expect them to do, and what they are doing that you
    consider incorrect.

Gary Herron


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From davidaltrows at yahoo.ca  Sat Dec 21 23:25:36 2013
From: davidaltrows at yahoo.ca (Downright Trows)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2013 20:25:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: hi
Message-ID: <6ddc682b-d207-4787-b245-d8b068b28856@googlegroups.com>

testing


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 05:58:10 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 02:58:10 -0800
Subject: Datetime string reformatting
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTyQm1V2K8c8m0NPK9TQK=WarcFGeBh1OPwpPaDsWX9V=w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I am trying to comprehend what is required to get a successful processing. ;-)
My script receives a data from the csv file. In this csv file there is
a datetime field.
This datetime field is formatted as follows: %m/%d/%Y
%H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}. I'm reading this field into the string with
this format.

The trouble comes from the fact that I need to insert this value into
mySQL. Doing it directly gives me an error: "Incorrect formatting".
After a bit of googling and trial I found out that mySQL is looking
for the format of '%Y/%m/%d %H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}.

There is a mySQL function which transfers the data into the proper
format: STR_TO_DATE(), but I can't obviously call it since it is not
known to Python.

Now obviously there should be a possibility to reformat this string.
I guess I can try to do:

mydate = date(mydate_from_csv)
text = mydate.format()

but this feels like an ugly hack.

Is there a better alternative?

Thank you.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 06:32:39 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:32:39 +0000
Subject: Datetime string reformatting
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyQm1V2K8c8m0NPK9TQK=WarcFGeBh1OPwpPaDsWX9V=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTyQm1V2K8c8m0NPK9TQK=WarcFGeBh1OPwpPaDsWX9V=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l96ikc$l5f$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 22/12/2013 10:58, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> I am trying to comprehend what is required to get a successful processing. ;-)
> My script receives a data from the csv file. In this csv file there is
> a datetime field.
> This datetime field is formatted as follows: %m/%d/%Y
> %H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}. I'm reading this field into the string with
> this format.
>
> The trouble comes from the fact that I need to insert this value into
> mySQL. Doing it directly gives me an error: "Incorrect formatting".
> After a bit of googling and trial I found out that mySQL is looking
> for the format of '%Y/%m/%d %H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}.
>
> There is a mySQL function which transfers the data into the proper
> format: STR_TO_DATE(), but I can't obviously call it since it is not
> known to Python.
>
> Now obviously there should be a possibility to reformat this string.
> I guess I can try to do:
>
> mydate = date(mydate_from_csv)
> text = mydate.format()
>
> but this feels like an ugly hack.
>
> Is there a better alternative?
>
> Thank you.
>

Round trip the data using these 
http://docs.python.org/3/library/datetime.html#strftime-strptime-behavior or 
use string slicing and dicing.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From andipersti at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 12:03:35 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:03:35 +0100
Subject: Datetime string reformatting
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyQm1V2K8c8m0NPK9TQK=WarcFGeBh1OPwpPaDsWX9V=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTyQm1V2K8c8m0NPK9TQK=WarcFGeBh1OPwpPaDsWX9V=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B71B67.4000406@gmail.com>

On 22.12.2013 11:58, Igor Korot wrote:
> My script receives a data from the csv file. In this csv file there is
> a datetime field.
> This datetime field is formatted as follows: %m/%d/%Y
> %H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}. I'm reading this field into the string with
> this format.
>
> The trouble comes from the fact that I need to insert this value into
> mySQL. Doing it directly gives me an error: "Incorrect formatting".
> After a bit of googling and trial I found out that mySQL is looking
> for the format of '%Y/%m/%d %H:%M:%S.{milliseconds}.
>
> There is a mySQL function which transfers the data into the proper
> format: STR_TO_DATE(), but I can't obviously call it since it is not
> known to Python.

You don't want to call "STR_TO_DATE()" from Python but use it inside the 
SQL statement.

So instead of doing the conversion in Python as Mark suggested, you 
could do something like

sql_stmt = """INSERT ...
               VALUES (..., STR_TO_DATE(%s, "%m/%d/%Y %H:%M:%S.{%f}"),
                       ...)"""
cursor.execute(sql_stmt, (..., mydate_from_csv, ...))

(BTW: Do you mean microseconds instead of milliseconds? And are the 
"milliseconds" really inside curly braces?)

Bye, Andreas


From tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 07:24:37 2013
From: tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com (tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 04:24:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: unicode to human readable format
Message-ID: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
i'm looking for solution the unicode string translation to the more readable format. 
I've got string like s=s=[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'] and have no idea how to change to the human readable format. please help!

regards,
tomasz


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 07:30:14 2013
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Q2hyaXMg4oCcS3dwb2xza2HigJ0gV2Fycmljaw==?=)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:30:14 +0100
Subject: unicode to human readable format
In-Reply-To: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7Kh3zOWK=_Kf=6GVAakF4znydp-8zqeZOi0ekWJEUeXvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 1:24 PM,  <tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> i'm looking for solution the unicode string translation to the more readable format.
> I've got string like s=s=[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'] and have no idea how to change to the human readable format. please help!
>
> regards,
> tomasz
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

While printing the string, instead of the list/seeing the list?s repr,
Python shows a nice human-friendly representation.

>>> s=[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> s
[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> s[0]
u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'
>>> print s
[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> print s[0]
?????

However, that is only the case with Python 2, as Python 3 has a
human-friendly representation in the repr, too:

>>> s=[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> s
['?????']

-- 
Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense


From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Dec 22 07:33:37 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 13:33:37 +0100
Subject: unicode to human readable format
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l96m6c$p4g$1@ger.gmane.org>

tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com wrote:

> Hi,
> i'm looking for solution the unicode string translation to the more
> readable format. I've got string like
> s=s=[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'] and have no idea how to change to
> the human readable format. please help!

No, you have a list of strings:

>>> list_of_strings = [u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> print list_of_strings
[u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']

When a list is printed the individual items are converted to strings with 
repr() to avoid ambiguous output e. g. for strings with embeded commas.

If you want human readable strings print them individually instead of the 
whole list at once:

>>> for string in list_of_strings:
...     print string
... 
?????




From tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 05:43:58 2013
From: tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com (tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 02:43:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: unicode to human readable format
In-Reply-To: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>

hello,
can I ask you for help? when I try to print s[0] i vane the message: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-1: ordinal not in range(128). 
how to solve my problem, please?


regards,
t.


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 27 06:37:17 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:37:17 +1100
Subject: unicode to human readable format
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
 <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52bd666d$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com wrote:

> hello,
> can I ask you for help? when I try to print s[0] i vane the message:
> UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-1:
> ordinal not in range(128). how to solve my problem, please?

What version of Python?

What operating system?

What environment are you running in? IDLE? The shell or cmd.exe? Powershell?
xterm? Something else?

Please copy and paste the complete traceback, starting from the line

    Traceback (most recent call last):

to the end.

Please print repr(s[0]) and show us the output.


-- 
Steven



From wxjmfauth at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 02:48:37 2013
From: wxjmfauth at gmail.com (wxjmfauth at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 23:48:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: unicode to human readable format
In-Reply-To: <52bd666d$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
 <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
 <52bd666d$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <6a48f9a5-e676-4699-8dd8-ff7c43250583@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 27 d?cembre 2013 12:37:17 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a ?crit?:
> tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > hello,
> 
> > can I ask you for help? when I try to print s[0] i vane the message:
> 
> > UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-1:
> 
> > ordinal not in range(128). how to solve my problem, please?
> 
> 
> 
> What version of Python?
> 
> 
> 
> What operating system?
> 
> 
> 
> What environment are you running in? IDLE? The shell or cmd.exe? Powershell?
> 
> xterm? Something else?
> 
> 
> 
> Please copy and paste the complete traceback, starting from the line
> 
> 
> 
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
> 
> 
> 
> to the end.
> 
> 
> 
> Please print repr(s[0]) and show us the output.
> 
> 


What do you expect?
The representation is - and should be -

>>> print repr(s[0])
u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'

independently of the tool one uses to process such
a code.


Now, if one prints s[0], the result may be - and should be -
different from the tool.


win console, cp850

>>> print s[0]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "c:\python27\lib\encodings\cp850.py", line 12, in encode
    return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_map)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position 0-4: cha
racter maps to <undefined>
>>>


win console, cp1252

>>> print s[0]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "c:\python27\lib\encodings\cp1252.py", line 12, in encode
    return codecs.charmap_encode(input,errors,encoding_table)
UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' codec can't encode characters in position 0-4: cha
racter maps to <undefined>
>>>

win console, cp1250

>>> s = [u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144']
>>> print s[0]
?????
>>>


SciTE editor, output pane "locale", cp1252 for me.

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "utrick.py", line 18, in <module>
    print u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-4: ordinal not in range(128)
>Exit code: 1


SciTE editor, output pane 65001

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "utrick.py", line 18, in <module>
    print u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'
UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-4: ordinal not in range(128)
>Exit code: 1


Now in IDLE, Western European version of Windows, 
one get this

>>> print s[0]
?????

Note, by chance it is printing something. It may
come it does not print, understand, render chars
at all. *This is wrong*.



My interactive interpreter I wrote for Py2.*
(full of dirty tricks).

>>> print repr(s[0])
u'\u0105\u017c\u0119\u0142\u0144'
>>> print s[0]
?????

*This is correct*, it is an expected result and it
works for all chars.



A (the) correct way to print s[0] with a console (all
platforms).

>>> print s[0].encode(sys.stdout.encoding, 'replace')
?????
>>>


See the another thread about printing repr().


jmf


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 27 06:47:07 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 06:47:07 -0500
Subject: unicode to human readable format
In-Reply-To: <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
 <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9jpbf$de3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/27/13 5:43 AM, tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com wrote:
> hello,
> can I ask you for help? when I try to print s[0] i vane the message: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-1: ordinal not in range(128).
> how to solve my problem, please?
>
>
> regards,
> t.
>

For help with the fundamentals, you can read or watch this PyCon 
presentation:  Pragmatic Unicode, or, How Do I Stop the Pain? 
http://nedbatchelder.com/text/unipain.html



-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From davea at davea.name  Fri Dec 27 06:59:58 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 06:59:58 -0500
Subject: unicode to human readable format
In-Reply-To: <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
References: <f6f3d6e9-d0f5-4c06-8f15-42aabf149473@googlegroups.com>
 <7f0f59ef-5a9e-4c6b-832a-dfaee3ee4dcf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.2623930490386718213@news.gmane.org>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 02:43:58 -0800 (PST), tomasz.kaczorek at gmail.com 
wrote:
> can I ask you for help? when I try to print s[0] i vane the 
message: UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in 
position 0-1: ordinal not in range(128). 
> how to solve my problem, please?

First, what version of what os, and what version of python? 

Next,  what terminal are you running,  or what ide, and do you have 
stdout redirected? 

Finally what does your program look like, or at least tell us the 
type and represents of s [0].

Bottom line is that s [0] contains a code point that's larger than 7f 
and print is convinced that your terminal can handle only ASCII.

-- 
DaveA



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 08:02:47 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 05:02:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
Message-ID: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>

I found the following solution to use idle on the raspberry pi
as sudoer (which is necessary or at least comfortable when programming the
GPIO) 
1. Open a terminal
2. type cd ~/Desktop
3. type touch idle_as_root
4. type nano idle_as_root
5. type in sudo idle
6. exit nano
7. type in sudo chmod +x idle_as_root
8. Close terminal
9. Double click on the idle_as_root program on your desktop

This all works fine as long as I use X, however
I also want to use it via vnc
For vnc I did the following:
Installed script "tightvncserver" on the RPiwith the following contents:
#!/bin/bash
# /etc/init.d/tightvncserver
VNCUSER='pi'
case "$1" in
   start)
#    su $VNCUSER -c '/usr/bin/tightvncserver :1'
     su -l $VNCUSER -c '/usr/bin/tightvncserver :1'
     echo "Starting TightVNC server for $VNCUSER "
     ;;
   stop)
     pkill Xtightvnc
     echo "Tightvncserver stopped"
     ;;
   *)
     echo "Usage: /etc/init.d/tightvncserver {start|stop}"
     exit 1
     ;;
esac
exit 0 

sudo chmod 755 /etc/init.d/tightvncserver
sudo update-rc.d tightvncserver defaults

when starting the script manually like this
sudo /etc/init.d/tightvncserver start
everything works as expected i.e. I can click on the idle_as_root-icon and
it works as expected.
If however I reboot the system, the service does start and I do see the
rpi-desktop but clicking the idle_as_root-icon doesn't work. Manually
trying to start it as follows show an error:
pi at raspberrypi ~ $ sudo idle
Client is not authorized to connect to ServerTraceback (most recent call
last):
  File "/usr/bin/idle", line 5, in <module>
    main()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/idlelib/PyShell.py", line 1427, in main
    root = Tk(className="Idle")
  File "/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1712, in __init__
    self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className,
interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to display ":1.0"


Does someone here have a solution for this problem?
thanks in advance
jean


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 08:27:35 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 05:27:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
In-Reply-To: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
References: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 22 december 2013 14:02:47 UTC+1 schreef Jean Dubois:
> I found the following solution to use idle on the raspberry pi
> as sudoer (which is necessary or at least comfortable when programming the
> GPIO) 
> 1. Open a terminal
> 2. type cd ~/Desktop
> 3. type touch idle_as_root
> 4. type nano idle_as_root
> 5. type in sudo idle
> 6. exit nano
> 7. type in sudo chmod +x idle_as_root
> 8. Close terminal
> 9. Double click on the idle_as_root program on your desktop
> This all works fine as long as I use X, however
> I also want to use it via vnc
> For vnc I did the following:
> Installed script "tightvncserver" on the RPiwith the following contents:
> #!/bin/bash
> # /etc/init.d/tightvncserver
> VNCUSER='pi'
> case "$1" in
>    start)
> #    su $VNCUSER -c '/usr/bin/tightvncserver :1'
>      su -l $VNCUSER -c '/usr/bin/tightvncserver :1'
>      echo "Starting TightVNC server for $VNCUSER "
>      ;;
>    stop)
>      pkill Xtightvnc
>      echo "Tightvncserver stopped"
>      ;;
>    *)
>      echo "Usage: /etc/init.d/tightvncserver {start|stop}"
>      exit 1
>      ;;
> esac
> exit 0 
> sudo chmod 755 /etc/init.d/tightvncserver
> sudo update-rc.d tightvncserver defaults
> when starting the script manually like this
> sudo /etc/init.d/tightvncserver start
> everything works as expected i.e. I can click on the idle_as_root-icon and
> it works as expected.
I was wrong writing idle_as_root worked this way. As a matter of fact,
this method also does not work as expected, as can be seen from this
message:

X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.

New 'X' desktop is raspberrypi:1

Starting applications specified in /home/pi/.vnc/xstartup
Log file is /home/pi/.vnc/raspberrypi:1.log

Starting TightVNC server for pi 




> If however I reboot the system, the service does start and I do see the
> rpi-desktop but clicking the idle_as_root-icon doesn't work. Manually
> trying to start it as follows show an error:
> pi at raspberrypi ~ $ sudo idle
> Client is not authorized to connect to ServerTraceback (most recent call
> last):
>   File "/usr/bin/idle", line 5, in <module>
>     main()
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/idlelib/PyShell.py", line 1427, in main
>     root = Tk(className="Idle")
>   File "/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1712, in __init__
>     self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className,
> interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
> _tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to display ":1.0"



From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 12:06:39 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 10:06:39 -0700
Subject: [OT] vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
In-Reply-To: <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>
References: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
 <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B71C1F.1060409@gmail.com>

On 12/22/2013 06:27 AM, Jean Dubois wrote:
> I was wrong writing idle_as_root worked this way. As a matter of fact,
> this method also does not work as expected, as can be seen from this
> message:
> 
> X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> 
> New 'X' desktop is raspberrypi:1
> 
> Starting applications specified in /home/pi/.vnc/xstartup
> Log file is /home/pi/.vnc/raspberrypi:1.log
> 
> Starting TightVNC server for pi 

In future, I suspect you'll need to take questions like this that don't
really have anything to do with Python to a Raspberry Pi forum or e-mail
list.  Or a general Linux list.

Short answer:

Edit /etc/sudoers and add this line somewhere in it (probably near other
lines that look similar):

Defaults env_keep += "DISPLAY XAUTHORITY"

If that doesn't work, then you'll have to talk to folks running the
Rasbian on their Pi.  Sometimes XAUTHORITY isn't set.


From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 09:06:07 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 06:06:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4493.1387732035.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
 <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4493.1387732035.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f5a0c02d-2cbd-47e8-820c-77dd67e28a0e@googlegroups.com>

Op zondag 22 december 2013 18:06:39 UTC+1 schreef Michael Torrie:
> On 12/22/2013 06:27 AM, Jean Dubois wrote:
> > I was wrong writing idle_as_root worked this way. As a matter of fact,
> > this method also does not work as expected, as can be seen from this
> > message:
> > 
> > X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> > 
> > New 'X' desktop is raspberrypi:1
> > 
> > Starting applications specified in /home/pi/.vnc/xstartup
> > Log file is /home/pi/.vnc/raspberrypi:1.log
> > 
> > Starting TightVNC server for pi 
> In future, I suspect you'll need to take questions like this that don't
> really have anything to do with Python to a Raspberry Pi forum or e-mail
> list.  Or a general Linux list.
> Short answer:
> Edit /etc/sudoers and add this line somewhere in it (probably near other
> lines that look similar):
> Defaults env_keep += "DISPLAY XAUTHORITY"
> If that doesn't work, then you'll have to talk to folks running the
> Rasbian on their Pi.  Sometimes XAUTHORITY isn't set.

I thought this would be something python-people are familiar with, after
all idle is a Python IDE and running it as a root sometimes is necessary.
Anyway,
I tried out your suggestion but it didn't work, however googling the line
you suggested brought me close to a solution:
the following command does the trick:
xhost +local:root 

unfortunately putting it in ~/.bash_profile doesn't make it work
automatically
after booting, neither does putting it in ~/.xsession, in ~/.xinitrc nor
in an autostart-file in ~/.config/openbox/ 
putting it in .bashrc does work _after_ opening a terminal which isn't
very nice.

thanks and kind regards,
jean


From torriem at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 10:29:09 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:29:09 -0700
Subject: [OT] vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
In-Reply-To: <f5a0c02d-2cbd-47e8-820c-77dd67e28a0e@googlegroups.com>
References: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
 <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4493.1387732035.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f5a0c02d-2cbd-47e8-820c-77dd67e28a0e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B856C5.7010508@gmail.com>

On 12/23/2013 07:06 AM, Jean Dubois wrote:
> I thought this would be something python-people are familiar with, after
> all idle is a Python IDE and running it as a root sometimes is necessary.

On most desktop distros like Fedora, sudo idle would indeed work.

The fact that it's not working on your pi, means it must be specific to
the distro that your pi is running.  And by the way you never mentioned
what distro this is.

> Anyway,
> I tried out your suggestion but it didn't work, however googling the line
> you suggested brought me close to a solution:

The solution likely lies in understanding how MIT-Cookie's work with X11
and how to use xauth.

> the following command does the trick:
> xhost +local:root 
> 
> unfortunately putting it in ~/.bash_profile doesn't make it work
> automatically
> after booting, neither does putting it in ~/.xsession, in ~/.xinitrc nor
> in an autostart-file in ~/.config/openbox/ 
> putting it in .bashrc does work _after_ opening a terminal which isn't
> very nice.
> 
> thanks and kind regards,
> jean



From jeandubois314 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 12:02:15 2013
From: jeandubois314 at gmail.com (Jean Dubois)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:02:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [OT] vnc-problem with idle running as sudo on raspberry pi
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4562.1387812576.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <b0b2ea81-0051-4e59-9b91-67cd9decbcab@googlegroups.com>
 <6fc90651-e42f-444d-a6de-2ca030cc9110@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4493.1387732035.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f5a0c02d-2cbd-47e8-820c-77dd67e28a0e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4562.1387812576.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d6e8e371-dd4a-48ad-83f1-1e9fc7f27ab9@googlegroups.com>

Op maandag 23 december 2013 16:29:09 UTC+1 schreef Michael Torrie:
> On 12/23/2013 07:06 AM, Jean Dubois wrote:
> > I thought this would be something python-people are familiar with, after
> > all idle is a Python IDE and running it as a root sometimes is necessary.
>
> On most desktop distros like Fedora, sudo idle would indeed work.
>
> The fact that it's not working on your pi, means it must be specific to
> the distro that your pi is running.  And by the way you never mentioned
> what distro this is.
>
> > Anyway,
> > I tried out your suggestion but it didn't work, however googling the line
> > you suggested brought me close to a solution:
>
> The solution likely lies in understanding how MIT-Cookie's work with X11
> and how to use xauth.
>
In fact no need for that, changing sudo /usr/bin/idle to gksu /usr/bin/idle
is all is needed to make this work.

kind regards,
jean


From em.rexhepi at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 12:20:06 2013
From: em.rexhepi at gmail.com (em rexhepi)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 09:20:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
Message-ID: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>

I know is my fault i'm no good programmer, I'm a begginer that's why i need your help.

I have a python 3.3 project to be finished. I did what i could there is not much help on google about this topic.

The project is to load a webpage from any website and filter the ads.
I'm using ABPY library to filter, here is the link:
https://github.com/atereshkin/abpy <- needs to be converted in python 3.x it is on 2.x
easylist.txt link: https://easylist-downloads.adblockplus.org/easylist.txt


When I use my code it just displays nothing

My code:
#!/usr/local/bin/python3.1

import cgitb;cgitb.enable()

import urllib.request
response = urllib.request.build_opener()
response.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Mozilla/5.0')]
response = urllib.request.urlopen("www.youtube.com";)

html = response.read()

from abpy import Filter
with open("easylist.txt") as f:
f = Filter(file('easylist.txt'))
f.match(html)


print("Content-type: text/html")
print()
print (html)


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 12:58:13 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 04:58:13 +1100
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
In-Reply-To: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
References: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmozr8L_G5o9Y-kuBh+ckr6sronX38PcW83G48ThjZSb3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 4:20 AM, em rexhepi <em.rexhepi at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a python 3.3 project to be finished. ...
>
> My code:
> #!/usr/local/bin/python3.1

Your shebang says 3.1, are you sure that's correct? Maybe it's not
finding the right interpreter.

If this is running as CGI, which it seems to be, check your server
error logs. It's quite possible you're getting back a blank page
because something's bombing, in which case - if you're lucky -
there'll be a full exception traceback in the log.

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 13:08:39 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:08:39 -0700
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
In-Reply-To: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
References: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B72AA7.4050609@gmail.com>

On 12/22/2013 10:20 AM, em rexhepi wrote:
> When I use my code it just displays nothing
> 
> My code:
> #!/usr/local/bin/python3.1
> 
> import cgitb;cgitb.enable()
> 
> import urllib.request
> response = urllib.request.build_opener()
> response.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Mozilla/5.0')]
> response = urllib.request.urlopen("www.youtube.com";)
> 
> html = response.read()
> 
> from abpy import Filter
> with open("easylist.txt") as f:
> f = Filter(file('easylist.txt'))
> f.match(html)

What happens when you comment out the above four lines?  Does the web
page print without the filtering?  Just as a sanity check.  My hunch is
that html has no data in it.

Also what is "f.match(html)" supposed to return? Is it supposed to
mutate html (seems unlikely) or does it return something? Looking at the
source code, match() does not return anything, but prints to stdout,
which is weird, but at least that tells us that it doesn't actually
change the html object.

> print("Content-type: text/html")
> print()
> print (html)

I'm not sure you're doing this right.  adpy seems a bit goofy, but since
f.match() does not appear to change html at all, you should get the same
html out that urllib grabbed.  So if you're not getting any output, that
means you're not getting the original html somehow.  Also if f.match()
is doing its thing, I don't think you want to print out html after the
command, because f.match itself is printing to stdout itself.

Have you looked over the adpy source code?  I haven't bothered to run
it, but a glance through the code would seem to indicate that it doesn't
actually do the filtering at all, but rather just prints out the rules
that the html code you provide would match.  I bet you could modify it
to do filtering though.  Maybe add a method that uses rule.sub to
replace the bad text with an empty string.



From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Dec 22 15:28:21 2013
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:28:21 +0000
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
In-Reply-To: <52B72AA7.4050609@gmail.com>
References: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
 <52B72AA7.4050609@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B74B65.6010700@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 22/12/2013 18:08, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 10:20 AM, em rexhepi wrote:
>> When I use my code it just displays nothing
>>
>> My code:
>> #!/usr/local/bin/python3.1
>>
>> import cgitb;cgitb.enable()
>>
>> import urllib.request
>> response = urllib.request.build_opener()
>> response.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Mozilla/5.0')]
>> response = urllib.request.urlopen("www.youtube.com";)
>>
>> html = response.read()
>>
>> from abpy import Filter
>> with open("easylist.txt") as f:
>> f = Filter(file('easylist.txt'))
>> f.match(html)
>
> What happens when you comment out the above four lines?  Does the web
> page print without the filtering?  Just as a sanity check.  My hunch is
> that html has no data in it.
>
> Also what is "f.match(html)" supposed to return? Is it supposed to
> mutate html (seems unlikely) or does it return something? Looking at the
> source code, match() does not return anything, but prints to stdout,
> which is weird, but at least that tells us that it doesn't actually
> change the html object.
>
>> print("Content-type: text/html")
>> print()
>> print (html)
>
> I'm not sure you're doing this right.  adpy seems a bit goofy, but since
> f.match() does not appear to change html at all, you should get the same
> html out that urllib grabbed.  So if you're not getting any output, that
> means you're not getting the original html somehow.  Also if f.match()
> is doing its thing, I don't think you want to print out html after the
> command, because f.match itself is printing to stdout itself.
>
> Have you looked over the adpy source code?  I haven't bothered to run
> it, but a glance through the code would seem to indicate that it doesn't
> actually do the filtering at all, but rather just prints out the rules
> that the html code you provide would match.  I bet you could modify it
> to do filtering though.  Maybe add a method that uses rule.sub to
> replace the bad text with an empty string.
>
The urlopen call also contains a stray semicolon.



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 13:25:17 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 18:25:17 +0000
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
In-Reply-To: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
References: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l97aq2$7qo$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 22/12/2013 17:20, em rexhepi wrote:
> I know is my fault i'm no good programmer, I'm a begginer that's why i need your help.
>
> I have a python 3.3 project to be finished. I did what i could there is not much help on google about this topic.
>
> The project is to load a webpage from any website and filter the ads.
> I'm using ABPY library to filter, here is the link:
> https://github.com/atereshkin/abpy <- needs to be converted in python 3.x it is on 2.x
> easylist.txt link: https://easylist-downloads.adblockplus.org/easylist.txt
>
>
> When I use my code it just displays nothing
>
> My code:
> #!/usr/local/bin/python3.1
>
> import cgitb;cgitb.enable()
>
> import urllib.request
> response = urllib.request.build_opener()
> response.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Mozilla/5.0')]
> response = urllib.request.urlopen("www.youtube.com";)
>
> html = response.read()
>
> from abpy import Filter
> with open("easylist.txt") as f:
> f = Filter(file('easylist.txt'))
> f.match(html)

Whats the above meant to be doing?  You've opened easylist.txt as f and 
then reassigned f, passing easylist.txt to file which doesn't exist in 
Python 3.

>
>
> print("Content-type: text/html")
> print()
> print (html)
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Dec 22 16:13:22 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:13:22 -0500
Subject: BLANK PAGE when i try Filtering Adsense with abpy
In-Reply-To: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
References: <bf7b5838-9f24-4a94-9c14-0976a21578ff@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l97kld$aes$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/2013 12:20 PM, em rexhepi wrote:
> I know is my fault i'm no good programmer, I'm a begginer that's why i need your help.
>
> I have a python 3.3 project to be finished. I did what i could there is not much help on google about this topic.
>
> The project is to load a webpage from any website and filter the ads.
> I'm using ABPY library to filter, here is the link:
> https://github.com/atereshkin/abpy <- needs to be converted in python 3.x it is on 2.x
> easylist.txt link: https://easylist-downloads.adblockplus.org/easylist.txt
>
>
> When I use my code it just displays nothing
>
> My code:
> #!/usr/local/bin/python3.1

Please update your Python 3 if you are not in a straightjacket 
preventing you from doing so.

> import cgitb;cgitb.enable()

I suggest commenting this out and running normally in a console or Idle 
so you are guaranteed to see output, including error tracebacks. Only 
use cgi when this runs successfully in normal mode.

> import urllib.request
> response = urllib.request.build_opener()
> response.addheaders = [('User-agent', 'Mozilla/5.0')]
> response = urllib.request.urlopen("www.youtube.com";)

The ; is a SyntaxError and Python exits. See above.


> html = response.read()
>
> from abpy import Filter
> with open("easylist.txt") as f:
> f = Filter(file('easylist.txt'))
> f.match(html)
>
>
> print("Content-type: text/html")
> print()
> print (html)
>


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Sun Dec 22 13:06:56 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:06:56 -0700
Subject: Getting updates and restarting a long running url request.
Message-ID: <CALyJZZXX4cBtx_VVFpEWB8WEkVPNbgj0r-T1XX5nttmZWkNHDw@mail.gmail.com>

I am using biopython's NCBIWWW.qblast which sends a request to the ncbi
website and waits for a result. The relevant code can be found at the link
below starting at about 151. Basically it is a while loop waiting for the
blast query.
http://biopython.org/DIST/docs/api/Bio.Blast.NCBIWWW-pysrc.html

My problem; I am submitting about 75 request (one at a time and with
delays) and they can each take minutes to complete. I think sometimes the
request/response/query fails which results in me needing to restart
the process.

I am looking for suggestion on how to monitor and restart the process if I
think it has failed.

I am using the following code to submit the query/
def get_BLAST(taxid, queryseq, args=None):
    '''
    Input taxid to BLAST queryseq against
    '''
    e_query = "txid" + taxid + " [ORGN]"
    #, other_advanced='-G 4 -E 1'
    blast_result = NCBIWWW.qblast("blastn", "nt", queryseq, megablast=True,
entrez_query=e_query, word_size='11', other_advanced='-G 5 -E 2')
    return NCBIXML.read(blast_result)


Vincent Davis
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From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 01:24:40 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:24:40 -0700
Subject: Getting updates and restarting a long running url request.
In-Reply-To: <CALyJZZXX4cBtx_VVFpEWB8WEkVPNbgj0r-T1XX5nttmZWkNHDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyJZZXX4cBtx_VVFpEWB8WEkVPNbgj0r-T1XX5nttmZWkNHDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1jsR3V6muT5HuVRoYMv49MvCRiQCKrmV7c4x2UtrxUJMg@mail.gmail.com>

> I am using the following code to submit the query/
> def get_BLAST(taxid, queryseq, args=None):
>     '''
>     Input taxid to BLAST queryseq against
>     '''
>     e_query = "txid" + taxid + " [ORGN]"
>     #, other_advanced='-G 4 -E 1'
>     blast_result = NCBIWWW.qblast("blastn", "nt", queryseq, megablast=True,
> entrez_query=e_query, word_size='11', other_advanced='-G 5 -E 2')
>     return NCBIXML.read(blast_result)

Could you keep track of success?

result_dict = dict()
for id in taxid_list:
    result_dict[id] = False
while not all(result_dict.values()): # continue if not every ID was successful
    for id in taxid_list:
        if result_dict[id]:
            continue # We were already successful with this ID
        try:
            this_result = get_BLAST(id)
            result_dict[id] = True
        except:
            print("A warning.")


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Thu Dec 26 10:16:42 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 08:16:42 -0700
Subject: Getting updates and restarting a long running url request.
In-Reply-To: <CANy1k1jsR3V6muT5HuVRoYMv49MvCRiQCKrmV7c4x2UtrxUJMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyJZZXX4cBtx_VVFpEWB8WEkVPNbgj0r-T1XX5nttmZWkNHDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANy1k1jsR3V6muT5HuVRoYMv49MvCRiQCKrmV7c4x2UtrxUJMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALyJZZWAHMqHdV95r1K3x17g9PUze71SRECMBBMWqsD8R1oxFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Jason Friedman <jsf80238 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Could you keep track of success?
>
> result_dict = dict()
> for id in taxid_list:
>     result_dict[id] = False
> while not all(result_dict.values()): # continue if not every ID was
> successful
>     for id in taxid_list:
>         if result_dict[id]:
>             continue # We were already successful with this ID
>         try:
>             this_result = get_BLAST(id)
>             result_dict[id] = True
>         except:
>             print("A warning.")
>

Thanks for your response.?
Would this not keep requesting/submitting additional (duplicate) BLAST
queries?

>  try:
>             this_result = get_BLAST(id)
>             result_dict[id] = True


?It seems like I need to use threading, and there appears to be no way to
know if NCBIWWW.qblast is still waiting on results. It will either give a
result or possibly produce and error I suppose if the for example I lost
the connection to the internet but I am not really sure about that.

That said after some more research I found this tread.
http://lists.open-bio.org/pipermail/biopython/2013-April/008507.html



Vincent Davis
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From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 19:15:48 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:15:48 -0700
Subject: Getting updates and restarting a long running url request.
In-Reply-To: <CALyJZZWAHMqHdV95r1K3x17g9PUze71SRECMBBMWqsD8R1oxFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyJZZXX4cBtx_VVFpEWB8WEkVPNbgj0r-T1XX5nttmZWkNHDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANy1k1jsR3V6muT5HuVRoYMv49MvCRiQCKrmV7c4x2UtrxUJMg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALyJZZWAHMqHdV95r1K3x17g9PUze71SRECMBBMWqsD8R1oxFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1i9aoQvb0S3ocUBn1ZgAGBidZVkUZ6RgmHmeBn9z6zEuw@mail.gmail.com>

> Would this not keep requesting/submitting additional (duplicate) BLAST
> queries?
>>
>>  try:
>>             this_result = get_BLAST(id)
>>             result_dict[id] = True
>

I assumed that
NCBIWWW.qblast
waits for a response from the server.

Are you saying that instead it queues a request, and the
NCBIXML.read(blast_result)

command fetches the result?

>
> That said after some more research I found this tread.
> http://lists.open-bio.org/pipermail/biopython/2013-April/008507.html

I read that post to say that you will be submitting one request for a
lot of data points that you will then need to parse, is that true?


From shankhabanerjee at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 13:53:27 2013
From: shankhabanerjee at gmail.com (shankha)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 00:23:27 +0530
Subject: Error while building Python doc
Message-ID: <CAO_L6qFHy7XTs5s_dY5L3rWAmEPbz5hgMqJBsuoWkdbuXOKmQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I am trying to build Python documents as listed here

http://docs.python.org/devguide/documenting.html#building-the-documentation

make -C Doc html

Error message:
Checked out revision 89010.
mkdir -p build/html build/doctrees
python tools/sphinx-build.py -b html -d build/doctrees -D
latex_paper_size=  . build/html
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "tools/sphinx-build.py", line 27, in <module>
    from sphinx import main
ImportError: No module named sphinx
make: *** [build] Error 1
make: Leaving directory `Python-git/cpythonL-doc/Doc'


Sphinx is located inside the directory:

Doc/tools.

Do I need to change how I import (the path may be).

 --
Thanks
Gudge
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From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sun Dec 22 15:59:11 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:59:11 -0500
Subject: Error while building Python doc
In-Reply-To: <CAO_L6qFHy7XTs5s_dY5L3rWAmEPbz5hgMqJBsuoWkdbuXOKmQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO_L6qFHy7XTs5s_dY5L3rWAmEPbz5hgMqJBsuoWkdbuXOKmQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l97jqp$29f$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/2013 1:53 PM, shankha wrote:
> Hi,
> I am trying to build Python documents as listed here
>
> http://docs.python.org/devguide/documenting.html#building-the-documentation
>
> make -C Doc html
>
> Error message:
> Checked out revision 89010.
> mkdir -p build/html build/doctrees
> python tools/sphinx-build.py -b html -d build/doctrees -D
> latex_paper_size=  . build/html
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "tools/sphinx-build.py", line 27, in <module>
>      from sphinx import main
> ImportError: No module named sphinx
> make: *** [build] Error 1
> make: Leaving directory `Python-git/cpythonL-doc/Doc'
>
> Sphinx is located inside the directory: Doc/tools.

Based on my Windows tree, that should be Doc/tools/sphinx/, along with 
docutils, jinja, and pygments directories. To be a module, sphinx must 
contain __init__.py, along with other files.

> Do I need to change how I import (the path may be).

Did you run "make -C Doc checkout" first? (I do not know what the -C 
does, as I just do "make checkout" and occasionally make update in Doc 
on Windows, which run Doc/make.bat.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From christian at python.org  Sun Dec 22 16:26:08 2013
From: christian at python.org (Christian Heimes)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:26:08 +0100
Subject: Error while building Python doc
In-Reply-To: <l97jqp$29f$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CAO_L6qFHy7XTs5s_dY5L3rWAmEPbz5hgMqJBsuoWkdbuXOKmQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l97jqp$29f$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l97ld5$fa0$1@ger.gmane.org>

Am 22.12.2013 21:59, schrieb Terry Reedy:
> Did you run "make -C Doc checkout" first? (I do not know what the -C
> does, as I just do "make checkout" and occasionally make update in Doc
> on Windows, which run Doc/make.bat.

-C == change directory

"make -C Doc html" is like "cd Doc; make html; cd .."

Christian




From ycui at outlook.com  Sun Dec 22 13:37:04 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:37:04 -0300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
Message-ID: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>

hey guys,
I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic way to do this other than the following ? 
if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
Thanks for your input.
frank 		 	   		  
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From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 14:17:53 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:17:53 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:

> hey guys,
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of 
> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions should 
> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic 
> way to do this other than the following ? 
> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> Thanks for your input.
> frank 		 	   		  

Yup!  Just do:

a() or b() or c()

The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics.  That 
means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second 
operand.  Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something 
which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 14:31:21 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:31:21 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> hey guys,
>> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
>> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions should
>> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic
>> way to do this other than the following ?
>> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
>> Thanks for your input.
>> frank 		 	   		
>
> Yup!  Just do:
>
> a() or b() or c()
>
> The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics.  That
> means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
> operand.  Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
> which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
>

Really? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ycui at outlook.com  Sun Dec 22 14:10:36 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:10:36 -0300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>, <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>

sorry, but what if I need to have different parameters in these functions ?

> To: python-list at python.org
> From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk
> Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:31:21 +0000
> 
> On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> >   Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> >> hey guys,
> >> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> >> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions should
> >> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic
> >> way to do this other than the following ?
> >> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> >> Thanks for your input.
> >> frank 		 	   		
> >
> > Yup!  Just do:
> >
> > a() or b() or c()
> >
> > The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics.  That
> > means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
> > operand.  Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
> > which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
> >
> 
> Really? :)
> 
> -- 
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> what you can do for our language.
> 
> Mark Lawrence
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
 		 	   		  
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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sun Dec 22 14:49:43 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:49:43 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>,
 <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org> <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <l97fob$p68$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/13 2:10 PM, Frank Cui wrote:
> sorry, but what if I need to have different parameters in these functions ?

Frank, welcome to the group.  Common convention is to put your response 
below the exiting message, so that the conversation continues down the page.

(See my answer below... :)

>
>
>  > To: python-list at python.org
>  > From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk
>  > Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
>  > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:31:21 +0000
>  >
>  > On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
>  > > In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  > > Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
>  > >
>  > >> hey guys,
>  > >> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
>  > >> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed
> executions should
>  > >> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or
> more pythonic
>  > >> way to do this other than the following ?
>  > >> if a() == 0: if b() == 0: c()
>  > >> Thanks for your input.
>  > >> frank
>  > >
>  > > Yup! Just do:
>  > >
>  > > a() or b() or c()
>  > >
>  > > The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics. That
>  > > means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
>  > > operand. Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
>  > > which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
>  > >
>  >
>  > Really? :)
>  >
>  > --
>  > My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
>  > what you can do for our language.
>  >
>  > Mark Lawrence
>  >
>  > --
>  > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>

The most Python-natural way to deal with your problem would be to have 
these functions not return status codes at all.  Instead, have them 
raise an exception if something goes wrong.   Then you can invoke them 
most naturally:

     a()
     b()
     c()

Execution will continue as long as no exceptions are raised.  If you 
need to deal with the failure case also, then:

     try:
         a()
         b()
         c()
     except Exception as e:
         # do something here

Depending on how you want to deal with failures, you'd probably use your 
own subclass of Exception, but this is the general idea.

Return codes can be awkward, especially in Python which has exception 
integrated so fully into the language, library, and culture.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From ycui at outlook.com  Sun Dec 22 14:35:43 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:35:43 -0300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <l97fob$p68$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>, ,
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>, , <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>,<l97fob$p68$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W2680B868A398816D99EA03DAC60@phx.gbl>



> To: python-list at python.org
> From: ned at nedbatchelder.com
> Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:49:43 -0500
> 
> On 12/22/13 2:10 PM, Frank Cui wrote:
> > sorry, but what if I need to have different parameters in these functions ?
> 
> Frank, welcome to the group.  Common convention is to put your response 
> below the exiting message, so that the conversation continues down the page.
> 
> (See my answer below... :)
> 
> >
> >
> >  > To: python-list at python.org
> >  > From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk
> >  > Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
> >  > Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:31:21 +0000
> >  >
> >  > On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
> >  > > In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> >  > > Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >> hey guys,
> >  > >> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> >  > >> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed
> > executions should
> >  > >> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or
> > more pythonic
> >  > >> way to do this other than the following ?
> >  > >> if a() == 0: if b() == 0: c()
> >  > >> Thanks for your input.
> >  > >> frank
> >  > >
> >  > > Yup! Just do:
> >  > >
> >  > > a() or b() or c()
> >  > >
> >  > > The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics. That
> >  > > means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
> >  > > operand. Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
> >  > > which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  > Really? :)
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
> >  > what you can do for our language.
> >  >
> >  > Mark Lawrence
> >  >
> >  > --
> >  > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> >
> 
> The most Python-natural way to deal with your problem would be to have 
> these functions not return status codes at all.  Instead, have them 
> raise an exception if something goes wrong.   Then you can invoke them 
> most naturally:
> 
>      a()
>      b()
>      c()
> 
> Execution will continue as long as no exceptions are raised.  If you 
> need to deal with the failure case also, then:
> 
>      try:
>          a()
>          b()
>          c()
>      except Exception as e:
>          # do something here
> 
> Depending on how you want to deal with failures, you'd probably use your 
> own subclass of Exception, but this is the general idea.
> 
> Return codes can be awkward, especially in Python which has exception 
> integrated so fully into the language, library, and culture.
> 
> -- 
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Thanks for informing the rules. 		 	   		  
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From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Sun Dec 22 19:30:55 2013
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Gregory Ewing)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:30:55 +1300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4507.1387742746.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>, ,
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>, ,
 <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org> <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>,
 <l97fob$p68$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4507.1387742746.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bhpei0F65mbU1@mid.individual.net>

Frank Cui wrote:
> 
> Someone else wrote:
>  >
>  > Frank, welcome to the group. Common convention is to put your response
>  > below the exiting message, so that the conversation continues down 
> the page.
>
> Thanks for informing the rules.

He forgot to mention the most important rule,
which is:

DON'T quote the entire message you're replying to!

Only quote small pieces of it, like I did above,
just enough to establish context. Then put your
reply to that point under the quoted text.

-- 
Greg


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:08:06 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 00:08:06 GMT
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com> <l97elv$etg$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <BAY176-W23B383D8FC920EE78C424DAC60@phx.gbl>
 <mailman.4506.1387741799.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b77ee6$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:49:43 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:

> On 12/22/13 2:10 PM, Frank Cui wrote:
>> sorry, but what if I need to have different parameters in these
>> functions ?
> 
> Frank, welcome to the group.  Common convention is to put your response
> below the exiting message, so that the conversation continues down the
> page.

Ideally responses should be *interleaved* between parts of the quoted 
message, rather than just dumped at the end. The idea is that it's a 
conversation:

    Fred said:
    -> How do I exfoliate my monkey?

    Get a friend to hold it down while you rub it all over 
    with Extra Strength Monkey Exfoliating Cream. When you 
    are done, give it a banana as a reward.

    -> Once I have my exfoliated monkey, how do I convince
    -> others that it is my child?

    Dress it in children's clothes, and make sure you tell 
    people that he or she has a very sensitive artistic 
    personality, and that is why you allow it to climb the
    walls.


sort of thing. This also gives the writer the opportunity to trim out 
parts of the irrelevant text which is no longer relevant to the 
conversation, although it is considered polite to give some indication, 
usually [snip] or [...], that you have done so.

See Wikipedia's article on posting styles for more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_styles



-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 15:05:34 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:05:34 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-12E94D.14175322122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4504.1387740695.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-A2E16D.15053422122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4504.1387740695.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> >   Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> >> hey guys,
> >> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> >> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions 
> >> should
> >> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more 
> >> pythonic
> >> way to do this other than the following ?
> >> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> >> Thanks for your input.
> >> frank 		 	   		
> >
> > Yup!  Just do:
> >
> > a() or b() or c()
> >
> > The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics.  That
> > means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
> > operand.  Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
> > which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
> >
> 
> Really? :)

I believe what Mark is so elegantly trying to say is, "Roy is a dufus 
and got that backwards".  You need to return something which is false to 
make the next one in the chain get executed.

$ cat or.py 
def a():
    print "a"
    return 0

def b():
    print "b"
    return 1

def c():
    print "c"
    return 0

a() or b() or c()


$ python or.py
a
b


From cs at zip.com.au  Sun Dec 22 16:39:46 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:39:46 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-A2E16D.15053422122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-A2E16D.15053422122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131222213946.GA26305@cskk.homeip.net>

On 22Dec2013 15:05, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4504.1387740695.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > On 22/12/2013 19:17, Roy Smith wrote:
> > > In article <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> > >   Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> > >> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> > >> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions 
> > >> should
> > >> only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more 
> > >> pythonic
> > >> way to do this other than the following ?
> > >> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> > >
> > > Yup!  Just do:
> > >
> > > a() or b() or c()
> > >
> > > The "or" operation has what's known as "short-circuit" semantics.  That
> > > means, if the first operand is true, it doesn't evaluate the second
> > > operand.  Just make sure that a(), b(), and c() all return something
> > > which is true if they succeed and false otherwise.
> > 
> > Really? :)
> 
> I believe what Mark is so elegantly trying to say is, "Roy is a dufus 
> and got that backwards".  You need to return something which is false to 
> make the next one in the chain get executed.
> 
> $ cat or.py 
> def a():
>     print "a"
>     return 0
> 
> def b():
>     print "b"
>     return 1
> 
> def c():
>     print "c"
>     return 0
> 
> a() or b() or c()
> 
> 
> $ python or.py
> a
> b

Yeah.

Roy's code _depends_ upon the return value being equivalent to False.

A better approach would be:

  a() == 0 and b() == 1 and c() == 0

i.e. to explicitly check each return code against the expected/desired
value instead of relying on some flukey coincidental property of
the (arbitrary) numeric value returned.

Better still is the suggestion elsewhere in the thread to make the functions
raise exceptions on error instead of returning a number.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 16:53:31 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:53:31 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <roy-A2E16D.15053422122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4512.1387748397.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4512.1387748397.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:

> Roy's code _depends_ upon the return value being equivalent to False.

Yes.  You view this as a flaw.  I view it as a feature :-)

> A better approach would be:
> 
>   a() == 0 and b() == 1 and c() == 0
> 
> i.e. to explicitly check each return code against the expected/desired
> value instead of relying on some flukey coincidental property of
> the (arbitrary) numeric value returned.

You're assuming it's arbitrary.  I'm saying do it that way by design.  

> Better still is the suggestion elsewhere in the thread to make the functions
> raise exceptions on error instead of returning a number.

Possibly.  But, I think of exceptions as indicating that something went 
wrong.  There's two possible things the OP was trying to do here:

1) He intends that all of the functions get run, but each one can only 
get run if all the ones before it succeed.  In that case, I agree that 
the exception pattern makes sense.

2) He intends that each of the functions gets tried, and the first one 
that can return a value wins.  If that's the case, the "or" chaining 
seems more natural.


From cs at zip.com.au  Sun Dec 22 17:11:25 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:11:25 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>

On 22Dec2013 16:53, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4512.1387748397.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> > Roy's code _depends_ upon the return value being equivalent to False.
> 
> Yes.  You view this as a flaw.  I view it as a feature :-)

When I write functions which return a boolean indicating success/failure,
I try to make that boolean be "true" for success.

Now, I do take the point that these functions seem to take the
unix-exit-code convention that zero is success (leaving the many
values of "non-zero" to indicate flavours of failure as desired,
as we have many types of exceptions).

Or, possibly, that a non-zero return indicates the number of errors
encountered; I do that myself for things like option or file parsing,
where I explicitly want to parse of much of a command line (or
whatever) as possible before rejecting things; few things annoy me
as much as a command that barfs about the first usage error and
aborts instead of barfing multiple times and aborting. Unless it
is a command that does the same and then fails to recite a usage
message after the barf. (Yes, almost every GNU command on the planet:
I'm looking at you!)

However, in this count-of-errors scenario I tend to try to return
a list of errors, not a count.

But regardless, I consider code that goes:

  a() or b() or c()

as a test for _success_ of a(), b() and c() in succession to be
misleading at best. When I write that above incantation it is a
test for failure: try this, or try that, or finally try this other
thing.

> > A better approach would be:
> > 
> >   a() == 0 and b() == 1 and c() == 0
> > 
> > i.e. to explicitly check each return code against the expected/desired
> > value instead of relying on some flukey coincidental property of
> > the (arbitrary) numeric value returned.
> 
> You're assuming it's arbitrary.  I'm saying do it that way by design.  

The counter example the above is based upon deliberately returned
1 for success from b(), IIRC. Different design.

The OP was unclear about his/her design rationale.

> > Better still is the suggestion elsewhere in the thread to make the functions
> > raise exceptions on error instead of returning a number.
> 
> Possibly.  But, I think of exceptions as indicating that something went 
> wrong.

I think of failure as "something went wrong".
Yes, I'll grant there are shades of intent here.

> There's two possible things the OP was trying to do here:
> 
> 1) He intends that all of the functions get run, but each one can only 
> get run if all the ones before it succeed.  In that case, I agree that 
> the exception pattern makes sense.

His cascading if-statement in the OP suggested this to me.

> 2) He intends that each of the functions gets tried, and the first one 
> that can return a value wins.  If that's the case, the "or" chaining 
> seems more natural.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't his intent, again based on my recollection
of the OP. But I still dislike "a() or b() or c()" as a test for
chained success; I think it is a bad idiom.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

I must construct my own System, or be enslaved to another Man's.
        - William Blake


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:22:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:22:30 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>
 <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>         Having spent 22 years with VMS, 0 -> success is still a problem to me.
> Odd result codes (aka True) were 1-success/3-information, even results
> (False) were 0-warning/2-error/4-fatal

Having spent a similar amount of time with Unix, C, and various APIs,
I'm quite used to 0 meaning success and nonzero meaning error.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 22:43:01 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 03:43:01 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>
 <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l98bdb$vgn$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 03:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
> <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>          Having spent 22 years with VMS, 0 -> success is still a problem to me.
>> Odd result codes (aka True) were 1-success/3-information, even results
>> (False) were 0-warning/2-error/4-fatal
>
> Having spent a similar amount of time with Unix, C, and various APIs,
> I'm quite used to 0 meaning success and nonzero meaning error.
>
> ChrisA
>

Another C thing to complain about, with functions like malloc the status 
code and value returned are one and the same thing, except that NULL is 
failure in this case.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:45:27 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:45:27 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <l98bdb$vgn$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>
 <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l98bdb$vgn$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoT0JtxTOjcSkU2_L7MSgxfMv27pDqY=MU+riK=FOK=Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Another C thing to complain about, with functions like malloc the status
> code and value returned are one and the same thing, except that NULL is
> failure in this case.

How's that a problem? Python has the same:

memory.get(1234)

will return a bit of memory, or None if it can't get any. Not
materially different. Remember, C doesn't have exceptions. In C++, the
'new' operator will throw an exception if it can't provide memory.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 22:54:53 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 03:54:53 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoT0JtxTOjcSkU2_L7MSgxfMv27pDqY=MU+riK=FOK=Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>
 <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l98bdb$vgn$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoT0JtxTOjcSkU2_L7MSgxfMv27pDqY=MU+riK=FOK=Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l98c28$5rt$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 03:45, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Another C thing to complain about, with functions like malloc the status
>> code and value returned are one and the same thing, except that NULL is
>> failure in this case.
>
> How's that a problem? Python has the same:

Remembering to check it?

>
> memory.get(1234)

You learn something new every day or April 1st come early?

>
> will return a bit of memory, or None if it can't get any. Not
> materially different. Remember, C doesn't have exceptions. In C++, the
> 'new' operator will throw an exception if it can't provide memory.
>
> ChrisA
>


-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:59:29 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:59:29 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <l98c28$5rt$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <roy-2E9B79.16533122122013@news.panix.com>
 <20131222221125.GA44179@cskk.homeip.net>
 <jn9fb9t8u7a2f03t7p57kj21mc9v3bhhth@4ax.com>
 <CAPTjJmrPAFG-HqR7Pb4C7no90HLk5j9-xWEKWLZ+wjrzsH3q_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <l98bdb$vgn$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmoT0JtxTOjcSkU2_L7MSgxfMv27pDqY=MU+riK=FOK=Bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <l98c28$5rt$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrf4TpPGaQu286jcqzDHWsQX8fidPgOZLvfcnzhgDnPvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> memory.get(1234)
>
>
> You learn something new every day or April 1st come early?

memory = {1:"Foo", 12:"Bar", 123:"Quux"}

ChrisA


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 17:27:35 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:27:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:37:04 PM UTC-6, Frank Cui wrote:
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute
> a bunch of executions, each execution has a return code.
> the followed executions should only be executed if the
> return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic way
> to do this other than the following ?
>
> if a() == 0:
>     if b() == 0:
>         c()

Hello Frank.

I kindly request that you be more specific when asking
questions. Both your question and your example code contain
too many ambiguities.

I'm still not sure what exact outcome you wish to achieve,
the only certainty is that you wish to perform a linear
execution of "N" members with later executions being affected
by earlier executions.

Whether you want executions to proceed on failure or proceed
on success is unclear. Here are a few explicit pseudo code
examples that would have removed all ambiguities:

    if fails(a()):
        if fails(b()):
            c()

    if succeeds(a()):
        if succeeds(b()):
            c()

Or if you prefer a purely OOP approach:

    a.foo()
    b.foo()
    if a.failed:
        if b.failed:
            c.foo()

    a.foo()
    b.foo()
    if a.succeeded:
        if b.succeeded:
            c.foo()

or you could simplify using a logical one liner:

    if !a() and !b() then c()
    if a() and b() then c()

Of course you could use the "all" function

    if all(a(), b()):
        c()
    if not any(a(), b()):
        c()

But this "all" depends whether you're testing for success or
testing for failure, and that point is a distant third from
my desperate need of understanding your semantics of "what"
values are *true* and "what" values are *false*.

I think (sadly) more time is spent attempting to interpret
what an OP is asking rather than attempting to provide a
solution to the problem the OP is suffering, and whilst any
problem solving adventure is likely to improve our
intelligence, fumbling about attempting to decode
ambiguities is indeed time that could have been better spent
IF ONLY the speaker (or writer) had put a small bit more
effort into the question.

Look Frank, nobody is perfect, we all need to improve our
skills here or there. So don't be offended that my
statements are, well,... "frank".




From ycui at outlook.com  Sun Dec 22 17:14:13 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:14:13 -0300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>



> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:27:35 -0800
> Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
> From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com
> To: python-list at python.org
> 
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 12:37:04 PM UTC-6, Frank Cui wrote:
> > I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute
> > a bunch of executions, each execution has a return code.
> > the followed executions should only be executed if the
> > return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic way
> > to do this other than the following ?
> >
> > if a() == 0:
> >     if b() == 0:
> >         c()
> 
> Hello Frank.
> 
> I kindly request that you be more specific when asking
> questions. Both your question and your example code contain
> too many ambiguities.
> 
> I'm still not sure what exact outcome you wish to achieve,
> the only certainty is that you wish to perform a linear
> execution of "N" members with later executions being affected
> by earlier executions.
> 
> Whether you want executions to proceed on failure or proceed
> on success is unclear. Here are a few explicit pseudo code
> examples that would have removed all ambiguities:
> 
>     if fails(a()):
>         if fails(b()):
>             c()
> 
>     if succeeds(a()):
>         if succeeds(b()):
>             c()
> 
> Or if you prefer a purely OOP approach:
> 
>     a.foo()
>     b.foo()
>     if a.failed:
>         if b.failed:
>             c.foo()
> 
>     a.foo()
>     b.foo()
>     if a.succeeded:
>         if b.succeeded:
>             c.foo()
> 
> or you could simplify using a logical one liner:
> 
>     if !a() and !b() then c()
>     if a() and b() then c()
> 
> Of course you could use the "all" function
> 
>     if all(a(), b()):
>         c()
>     if not any(a(), b()):
>         c()
> 
> But this "all" depends whether you're testing for success or
> testing for failure, and that point is a distant third from
> my desperate need of understanding your semantics of "what"
> values are *true* and "what" values are *false*.
> 
> I think (sadly) more time is spent attempting to interpret
> what an OP is asking rather than attempting to provide a
> solution to the problem the OP is suffering, and whilst any
> problem solving adventure is likely to improve our
> intelligence, fumbling about attempting to decode
> ambiguities is indeed time that could have been better spent
> IF ONLY the speaker (or writer) had put a small bit more
> effort into the question.
> 
> Look Frank, nobody is perfect, we all need to improve our
> skills here or there. So don't be offended that my
> statements are, well,... "frank".
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Hi Rick,
Thanks for pointing out. I accept your advice and will try to make the questions clearer and more straightforward to interpretate . I already took the suggestion of using exception-based handling over the return code.
As to testing whether the previous function fails or succeeds, this doesn't really matter in the sense that I already mentioned a return code of 0. 
ThanksFrank 

 		 	   		  
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 17:51:55 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:51:55 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
 <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
> Thanks for pointing out. I accept your advice and will try to make the
> questions clearer and more straightforward to interpretate . I already took
> the suggestion of using exception-based handling over the return code.
>
> As to testing whether the previous function fails or succeeds, this doesn't
> really matter in the sense that I already mentioned a return code of 0.

Ranting Rick is one of the list's resident trolls. Don't take it amiss
that he turned his flamethrowers on you. :)

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Dec 22 18:02:51 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 23:02:51 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
 <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
 <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l97r27$7rd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 22/12/2013 22:51, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for pointing out. I accept your advice and will try to make the
>> questions clearer and more straightforward to interpretate . I already took
>> the suggestion of using exception-based handling over the return code.
>>
>> As to testing whether the previous function fails or succeeds, this doesn't
>> really matter in the sense that I already mentioned a return code of 0.
>
> Ranting Rick is one of the list's resident trolls. Don't take it amiss
> that he turned his flamethrowers on you. :)
>
> ChrisA
>

Given that Frank originally stated this

"
I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of 
executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions 
should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or 
more pythonic way to do this other than the following ?

if a() == 0:
     if b() == 0:
         c()
"

I can only see one way that you can possibly intepret it.  Perhaps rr 
was dashing off a reply on a mobile device while doing a home run, hence 
wasn't concentrating on what Frank had actually said?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 18:57:16 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:57:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4516.1387753377.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
 <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
 <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4516.1387753377.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <420afeb9-674f-4974-8f6d-6cc80c7f57b1@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:02:51 PM UTC-6, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 22/12/2013 22:51, Chris Angelico wrote:

> if a() == 0:
>
>      if b() == 0:
>
>          c()
>
> I can only see one way that you can possibly intepret it.

Hmm, I guess i should not assume color vision to be ubiquitous.

> [snip]

The level of abstraction of that code sample is so high that
no one should assume anything from reading it. The only fact
we CAN be sure of is that IF a() equals 0 and b() equals 0
then c will execute. But that fact gives us no insight into
Frank's *real* source code, not to mention his mind.

Sure. We always want folks to trim example code to it's most
relevant parts before presenting the code on this list, but
just as ten thousands lines of code is useless, so too is 4
lines. It's not the number of lines that matter so much as
the context those line provide to the problem at hand.

If you take the small code example literally, then why does
Frank even need to ask a question about what will happen
when he could simply run the code and observe the results.

Here is the most simplified example of Franks code:

    if 0 == 0:
        if 0 == 0:
            do_something()

This code is so *confined* as to be useless for
generalities. In fact, the only reason to ask a question
about such simplified code is to understand the execution
rules OR syntax of Python source code. Here are some
concrete facts about those three lines:

    1. test one will ALWAYS eval true, and proceed to test two

    2. test two will ALWAYS eval true, then execute "do_something"

    3. what happens after that is undefined

These are fundamental behaviors of Python conditionals,
operators, callables, etc... which we *already* understand
quite completely. But these fundamentals will not help us
understand Frank's problem.

    What we need is help Frank is *CONTEXT*.

Now, even though Frank's code offers a small increment in
complexity over my simplified form, it offers *zero*
context of that complexity:

    1. test one will evaluate true or false, then proceed (or
    not, depending on the return value of "a") to test two

    2. test two will evaluate true or false, then proceed (or
    not, depending on the return value of "b") to execute the
    body

    3. What happens in a, b, and c is undefined.

The problem is we have no idea what happens in a,b,and c...
but those facts may not matter, what does matter is what a
return value of zero *means* to Frank, and without an
understanding of these "Frank semantics", how could we
possibly extrapolate a solution to such ambiguous questions?

You see, there exist no rules in Python for what a return
value of 0 should mean. Should it mean "success"? Should it
mean "failure"? Should it mean "eat pasta quickly"? Well it
could mean all those things to different people.

Since function return values are defined by programmers,
*ONLY* the programmer himself-- or those familiar with the
entire code base --can resolve the ambiguities with any
degree of precision.

Even IF you are presented with a small snippet of code that
include the identifier for the return value, you still
cannot be certain that extrapolating meaning from an
identifier *alone* will give you the insight to remove all
ambiguity.

For example, let's say the return value is "proceed" and
attached to name spelled "flag". Do you really think you can
extrapolate the purpose of that value being returned?

"proceed" with what?

    Proceed counting unicorns?
    Proceed raising exceptions?
    Proceed extrapolating to infinity and beyond?!

You can guess, but that is all. Which brings us full circle
to the problem at hand.


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 23 07:27:29 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 07:27:29 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <420afeb9-674f-4974-8f6d-6cc80c7f57b1@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
 <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
 <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4516.1387753377.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <420afeb9-674f-4974-8f6d-6cc80c7f57b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l99a75$g3b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/13 6:57 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> Even IF you are presented with a small snippet of code that
> include the identifier for the return value, you still
> cannot be certain that extrapolating meaning from an
> identifier*alone*  will give you the insight to remove all
> ambiguity.
>
> For example, let's say the return value is "proceed" and
> attached to name spelled "flag". Do you really think you can
> extrapolate the purpose of that value being returned?
>
> "proceed" with what?
>
>      Proceed counting unicorns?
>      Proceed raising exceptions?
>      Proceed extrapolating to infinity and beyond?!
>
> You can guess, but that is all. Which brings us full circle
> to the problem at hand.

You seem to be arguing that the original question didn't have enough 
information to be usefully answered.  You are doing this after the OP 
got an answer he was pleased with.

Yes, the question had some ambiguity.  That's why other people engaged 
with him to get to a useful point.  Waxing philosophically about the 
impossibility of asking the question isn't helpful.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 07:44:20 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:44:20 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <420afeb9-674f-4974-8f6d-6cc80c7f57b1@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bab87cd3-1993-4803-b13d-65ac786d29b6@googlegroups.com>
 <BAY176-W4382AB517BCACB30A16D54DAC60@phx.gbl>
 <CAPTjJmqFH9FYc=Xw3Qvw=pC6RaW22yjTOiCndbtbsDXZavhz2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4516.1387753377.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <420afeb9-674f-4974-8f6d-6cc80c7f57b1@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l99b68$rgk$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 22/12/2013 23:57, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 5:02:51 PM UTC-6, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 22/12/2013 22:51, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> if a() == 0:
>>
>>       if b() == 0:
>>
>>           c()
>>
>> I can only see one way that you can possibly intepret it.
>

[snip molehill turned into Himalayas]

Again Frank's original question.

"
I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of 
executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions 
should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or 
more pythonic way to do this other than the following ?

if a() == 0:
     if b() == 0:
         c()
"

What is so difficult to understand about "is there a cleaner or more 
pythonic way to do this other than the following?"  Peter Otten for one 
certainly managed to get it, and as always managed to beat me to the draw :(

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:25:00 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 00:25:00 GMT
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:37:04 -0300, Frank Cui wrote:

> hey guys,
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions
> should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or
> more pythonic way to do this other than the following ? 
> if a() == 0:
>     if b() == 0:
>         c()

I don't believe there is a clean way to deal with error return codes in 
*any* language, but certainly not Python.

If you only have a few such functions, you can mis-use boolean operators 
to get the result you want, at the cost of misleading code:

a() == 0 and b() == 0 and c()

But that's pretty horrible code, because it looks like you're testing a 
condition when you're really trying to run a, b, c etc. for their side-
effects. Code that relies on side-effects is usually a sign of poor 
design.

A better alternative is to modify the functions so that instead of 
returning 0 on failure and (I'm guessing here) None on success, they 
raise an exception instead. Instead of:

def a():
    do_this()
    do_that()
    if condition:
        return 0
    do_something_else()


you re-write it as:

def a():
    do_this()
    do_that()
    if condition:
        raise SomeError("something broke")
    do_something_else()


Then you can do this:


try:
    a()
    b()
    c()
except SomeError:
    handle_error()


What if you can't edit all the various a, b, c functions because other 
parts of your code rely on them returning an error result? That's easy, 
you just need an adaptor:

import functools

def adapt(func):
    @functools.wraps(func)
    def inner(*args, **kwargs):
        result = func(*args, **kwargs)
        if result == 0:
            raise SomeError("some message")
    return inner


try:
    adapt(a)()
    adapt(b)()
    adapt(c)()
except SomeError:
    handle_error()


Another option really only applies if all the functions use the same set 
of arguments.

def chain(list_of_functions, *args, **kwargs):
    for func in list_of_functions:
        result = func(*args, **kwargs)
        if result == 0:
            break


-- 
Steven


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 20:24:10 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:24:10 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Code that relies on side-effects is usually a sign of poor 
> design.

I don't understand what you're trying to say there.  A bit later in your 
post, you wrote:

try:
    a()
    b()
    c()
except SomeError:
    handle_error()

Clearly, since the return values of a(), b(), and c() aren't saved, the 
only reason they're getting called is for their side effects.  And I 
don't see anything wrong with that.

BTW, there's a pattern we use a bunch in the Songza server code, which 
is sort of this, but in reverse.  We'll have a bunch of possible ways to 
do something (strategies, to use the pattern vernacular), and want to 
try them all in order until we find one which works.  So, for example:

        classes = [ClientDebugPicker,
                   StatefulSongPicker,
                   SWS_SequentialSongPicker,
                   StandardSongPicker]
        for cls in classes:
            picker = cls.create(radio_session, station, artist)
            if picker:
                return picker
        else:
            assert 0, "can't create picker (classes = %s)" % classes

Each SongPicker subclass encapsulates some logic for how to pick the 
next song.  It can also decide if the strategy it implements is 
appropriate for the particular request; create() either returns an 
instance of the class, or None.  Returning None means, "I'm not the 
right picker for this request; try the next one and see what he says".


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 20:35:38 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:35:38 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrKThbePy6Ozrb4xqZu9Mmz-dUCyj2evm5ts4r=qn60yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> Each SongPicker subclass encapsulates some logic for how to pick the
> next song.  It can also decide if the strategy it implements is
> appropriate for the particular request; create() either returns an
> instance of the class, or None.  Returning None means, "I'm not the
> right picker for this request; try the next one and see what he says".

But in that instance, the picker has done nothing. The main effect is
to return a value, and since it returned None, you go on to do
something else.

This looks fine:

foo = a() or b() or c()

And it also looks like it would be safe to drop one of the calls if
you know it won't succeed:

if no_way_that_b_will_work:
    foo = a() or c()

The point about side effects is that b() still has to be called, here,
and the original statement doesn't make that clear. When you call a
function and ignore its return value, you're clearly doing it for its
side effects. Imagine this:

width_required = max(len(foo),len(bar),len(quux))

Any sane reader is going to assume that the length checks aren't going
to have side effects... but they could! Imagine if testing the length
of something forced it to be loaded into memory, thus triggering any
exception that would otherwise not be triggered until the thing got
loaded much later. Vaguely plausible, but bad design because it's
extremely unclear.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 21:33:08 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:33:08 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>  Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
>> Code that relies on side-effects is usually a sign of poor
>> design.
> 
> I don't understand what you're trying to say there.

I'm trying to say that code that relies on side-effects is usually a sign of
poor design. Is that more clear now? :-)

I'm not a functional programming zealot, but imperative programming that
relies on side-effects is often harder to reason about than functional
style, due to lack of locality in its effects. With functions that
communicate only through their input arguments and output result, you don't
have to look far to see the effects the function call has: it is *only* in
the return result. But if it has side-effects, you potentially have to
inspect the entire program and environment to see what it has done.

Now of course sometimes the whole point of the function is to have a
side-effect (print something, delete or save a file, start up the car's
engine, ...) and even functional languages usually have some facility for
side-effects. And we can often limit the harm of relying on side-effects
but narrowly constraining what those side-effects are.

E.g. list.append has a very narrow and well-defined side-effect, which makes
it relatively easy to reason about it. But still not as easy as perhaps we
would like:

alist = blist = [1, 2, 4, 8]
# later on
alist.append(16)  # operates by side-effect
# and still later on
assert blist == [1, 2, 4, 8]  # FAILS!!!


A side-effect free language might make list.append return a new list with
the extra value appended, and then the above would not occur. But I
digress.

The point is, I'm not saying that imperative code that operates via
side-effects is always harmful. There are degrees of badness.


> A bit later in your 
> post, you wrote:
> 
> try:
>     a()
>     b()
>     c()
> except SomeError:
>     handle_error()
> 
> Clearly, since the return values of a(), b(), and c() aren't saved, the
> only reason they're getting called is for their side effects.

That's not my design :-)


> And I don't see anything wrong with that.

And quite frankly, neither do I. But I don't know what a, b and c actually
do.


> BTW, there's a pattern we use a bunch in the Songza server code, which
> is sort of this, but in reverse.  We'll have a bunch of possible ways to
> do something (strategies, to use the pattern vernacular), and want to
> try them all in order until we find one which works.

Sounds reasonable. You're not operating by side-effect, since you actually
do want the result generated by the strategy. Presumably the strategy
signature is to return None on failure, or instance on success. (I see
below that's exactly what you do.)


> So, for example: 
> 
>         classes = [ClientDebugPicker,
>                    StatefulSongPicker,
>                    SWS_SequentialSongPicker,
>                    StandardSongPicker]
>         for cls in classes:
>             picker = cls.create(radio_session, station, artist)
>             if picker:
>                 return picker

This seems perfectly reasonable up. The strategy either returns a picker, in
which case you are done, or it returns None and you continue. No
side-effects are involved.


>         else:
>             assert 0, "can't create picker (classes = %s)" % classes

?Ay, caramba! I was with you until the very last line. The above code is
possibly buggy and inappropriately designed. (I may be completely
misinterpreting this, in which case feel free to ignore the following
rant.)

First, the bug: there are circumstances where no exception is raised even if
all the strategies fail. (If the StandardSongPicker is guaranteed to
succeed, then obviously my analysis is wrong.) In this case, then any code
following the for-else will execute. Since this is in a function, and there
doesn't seem to be any following code, that means that your function will
return None instead of a valid picker. Does the rest of your code check for
None before using the picker? If not, you have a bug waiting to bite.

Second, the poor design. When it works as expected, failure is indicated by
AssertionError. Why AssertionError? Why not ImportError, or
UnicodeEncodeError, or ZeroDivisionError, or any other of the dozens of
inappropriate errors that the code could (but shouldn't) raise? I guess
nobody here would write code that looks like this by design:

try:
    picker = select_picker(radio_session, station, artist)
except EOFError:
    handle_no_picker_case()


just because "raise EOFError" required less typing than raising some more
appropriate exception. So why would we write:

try:
    picker = select_picker(radio_session, station, artist)
except AssertionError:
    handle_no_picker_case()


just because "assert" required less typing than raising some more
appropriate exception? assert is not a short-cut for "raise
SomeGenericException". AssertionError has a specific meaning, and it is
sloppy to misuse it. An assertion error means that an assertion has failed,
and assertions only fail when your code contains a logic error or a program
invariant is violated. Both should never happen in production code, and if
they do they ought to be unrecoverable errors.

Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
shut up now :-)


-- 
Steven



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:09:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:09:30 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpF-A9=2og8_2TC_Z5SKZfS0xcBfxb3PPr=VLwE3jv4hA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
> assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
> always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
> shut up now :-)

Or maybe it has a lengthy piece of error trapping code that wasn't
germane to the discussion, and for brevity was squished down to a
quick little assert :)

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 23:57:29 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 23:57:29 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
> assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
> always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
> shut up now :-)

Yes :-)

More specifically, the assertion exception will get caught way up in 
some django middleware which will log a stack trace and return a HTTP 
50-something.  This will typically be followed by somebody like me 
noticing the stack dump and trying to figure out WTF happened.

Assertions are great tools.  People should use them more often.  In a 
sense, they're executable comments.  They're a programmer's way of 
standing on a hilltop and shouting to all the world, "I swear to you, 
this is true.  There may be a gazillion lines of code out there and 
GBytes of program state, but right here, right now, within this circle 
I've drawn in the sand, I know this to be true, and you can depend on 
that.  You can make it part of the foundation on which you begin to 
reason about program behavior.  Furthermore, if it turns out not to be 
true, you don't have to worry about figuring out who's fault it is.  I 
hereby declare that it's my fault".


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 00:09:00 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:09:00 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoxWNQcDzhqDArY8b9pZjt4QfV69vGGqokFN1Z_4dxPkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> More specifically, the assertion exception will get caught way up in
> some django middleware which will log a stack trace and return a HTTP
> 50-something.  This will typically be followed by somebody like me
> noticing the stack dump and trying to figure out WTF happened.
>
> Assertions are great tools.  People should use them more often.

You do have to be careful though, because they can be compiled out. If
it really is a "can't happen", then sure, but encouraging people to
use them for potentially obscure cases may be dangerous - if you never
happen to hit on it during development and then run with assertions
disabled, you won't see that stack trace.

However, they're still a lot more executable than other forms of comment :)

ChrisA


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec 23 07:45:07 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 04:45:07 -0800
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52B83053.1030304@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/22/2013 08:57 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>   Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
>> assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
>> always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
>> shut up now :-)
>
> Yes :-)
>
> More specifically, the assertion exception will get caught way up in
> some django middleware which will log a stack trace and return a HTTP
> 50-something.  This will typically be followed by somebody like me
> noticing the stack dump and trying to figure out WTF happened.

This is completely misusing what assertions are for.  I hope this bit of middleware (or django itself) is very clear 
about never running with assertions turned off.


> Assertions are great tools.

Only when used properly.

>People should use them more often.

I see them being (mis)used too much as it is.

>In a
> sense, they're executable comments.  They're a programmer's way of
> standing on a hilltop and shouting to all the world, "I swear to you,
> this is true.  There may be a gazillion lines of code out there and
> GBytes of program state, but right here, right now, within this circle
> I've drawn in the sand,

Considering how easy it is to disable assertions, a circle in the sand is an amazingly appropriate metaphor.  :)

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 08:20:48 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:20:48 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <52B83053.1030304@stoneleaf.us>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com> <52B83053.1030304@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l99daj$k68$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 12:45, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> Considering how easy it is to disable assertions, a circle in the sand
> is an amazingly appropriate metaphor.  :)
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

It might be easy, but surely it's far more fun providing an itertools 
solution :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 23 10:10:50 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 10:10:50 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:

> On 12/22/2013 08:57 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
> >   Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
> >> assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
> >> always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
> >> shut up now :-)
> >
> > Yes :-)
> >
> > More specifically, the assertion exception will get caught way up in
> > some django middleware which will log a stack trace and return a HTTP
> > 50-something.  This will typically be followed by somebody like me
> > noticing the stack dump and trying to figure out WTF happened.
> 
> This is completely misusing what assertions are for.  I hope this bit of 
> middleware (or django itself) is very clear 
> about never running with assertions turned off.

Sigh.  Sometimes I'm not sure which is worse.  The anti-assertion 
zealotry on this list, or the anti-regex zealotry.

The use of an assertion here is perfectly reasonable.  It is a statement 
that "this can never happen".

The bit of middleware I was talking about catches ALL uncaught 
exceptions.  We design our code so that all exceptions are supposed to 
get caught and handled at some appropriate place in application code.  
Nothing is ever supposed to leak up to the point where that middleware 
catches it, and anything caught there is evidence of a bug.  This is a 
common pattern in any kind of long-lived server.

And, if we didn't have the piece of middleware, the assertion (or any 
other uncaught exception) would get caught at some deeper level inside 
the django core.  The result would still be a 500 HTTP response, but 
without the added diagnostic logging we do, so it would be a lot harder 
to understand what happened.

And, if django didn't have that "except Exception" block wrapping 
everything, the gunicorn process would exit and upstart would catch that 
and restart it.

And, yes, I know that assertions get turned off with -O (frankly, I 
think that's a design flaw).  We don't run with -O.


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec 23 11:00:12 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:00:12 -0800
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52B85E0C.3060006@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/23/2013 07:10 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/2013 08:57 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
>>> In article <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>>>    Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, I may be completely misinterpreting what I'm reading. Perhaps the
>>>> assertion is checking a function invariant ("one of the strategies will
>>>> always succeed") in which case you're doing it exactly right and I should
>>>> shut up now :-)
>>>
>>> Yes :-)
>>>
>>> More specifically, the assertion exception will get caught way up in
>>> some django middleware which will log a stack trace and return a HTTP
>>> 50-something.  This will typically be followed by somebody like me
>>> noticing the stack dump and trying to figure out WTF happened.
>>
>> This is completely misusing what assertions are for.  I hope this bit of
>> middleware (or django itself) is very clear
>> about never running with assertions turned off.
>
> Sigh.  Sometimes I'm not sure which is worse.  The anti-assertion
> zealotry on this list, or the anti-regex zealotry.

I am not a zealot (I'm not!  Really!! ;) .  I just find it alarming to have major pieces of software rely on a feature 
that can be so easily tuned out, and it wasn't clear from your comment that it was /any/ exception.

Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all my confidence testing!"

Just as one data point OpenERP, which has a lot of good features, unfortunately uses assert to test user input.  :(

--
~Ethan~


From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Dec 23 12:45:29 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 18:45:29 +0100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com> <52B85E0C.3060006@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l99squ$9v4$1@ger.gmane.org>

Ethan Furman wrote:

>> Sigh.  Sometimes I'm not sure which is worse.  The anti-assertion
>> zealotry on this list, or the anti-regex zealotry.
> 
> I am not a zealot (I'm not!  Really!! ;) .  I just find it alarming to
> have major pieces of software rely on a feature that can be so easily
> tuned out, and it wasn't clear from your comment that it was /any/
> exception.
> 
> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all
> my confidence testing!"
> 
> Just as one data point OpenERP, which has a lot of good features,
> unfortunately uses assert to test user input.  :(

Put the following at the beginning of every affected module:

try:
    assert 0
except AssertionError:
    pass
else:
    raise AssertionError("won't run with assertions turned off")

:)



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 23 12:05:22 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:05:22 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Roy Smith wrote:

> Sigh. ?Sometimes I'm not sure which is worse. ?The anti-assertion
> zealotry on this list, or the anti-regex zealotry.

I'm not anti-assertions. I love assertions. I wouldn't be surprised if I use
assert more than you do. What I dislike is people misusing assertions.

> And, yes, I know that assertions get turned off with -O (frankly, I
> think that's a design flaw). ?We don't run with -O.

Until such time as somebody decides they can speed up your code by 5% by
running with optimizations turned on.

Unfortunately, it's not always clear when an assert is appropriate and when
it isn't. Fundamentally, if an assertion can never fail[1], then there's no
point testing for it:

x = []
assert x == [] and len(x) == 0

So there's always tension between "why am I testing something that can't
fail?" and "but what if it does?", and different people are going to draw
the line in different places. So even if you and I draw the line in
different places, I can acknowledge that you seem to be using asserts the
same way I would, as executable comments and for testing program
invariants, and I'm sorry that my rant was aimed in your direction
unnecessarily.





[1] Short of hardware failure or serious bugs in the compiler, but in both
those cases you can't trust the assertions to trigger correctly either.

-- 
Steven



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 23 14:03:37 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 23, 2013 12:05:22 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Roy Smith wrote:

> > And, yes, I know that assertions get turned off with -O (frankly, I
> > think that's a design flaw). ?We don't run with -O.
> 
> 
> Until such time as somebody decides they can speed up your code by 5% by
> running with optimizations turned on.

Well, there's lots of changes people could make that would break things.  Many of them are in the name of efficiency. [1]  But, let's say they did that.  We would fall off the end of the function, return None, and the caller would end up doing:

with None:
    whatever

leaving somebody to puzzle over why the logs contained a stack dump ending in:

AttributeError: __exit__

So, here's the deeper question.  Is your issue strictly that -O elides assert statements? [2]  That's a purely mechanical issue that could be solved by using the rather more verbose:

if not condition:
    raise AssertionError("....")

Would you feel differently then?

> So there's always tension between "why am I testing something that can't
> fail?" and "but what if it does?"

Trust, but verify.  Especially when the thing you're verifying is your understanding of how your own code works :-)

[1] and most of those are premature optimizations.  To a first order approximation, for us, application speed is all about database performance, and not at all about Python code execution speed.  That's a pretty good second order approximation as well.

[2] In which case, we would just add some middleware which did:

assert "-O" not in sys.argv


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 14:12:44 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 06:12:44 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpVo0XmOGfdes9v==oXCRqCUheh8f--36j2SSzUePVQYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> [2] In which case, we would just add some middleware which did:
>
> assert "-O" not in sys.argv

Aside from the fact that this wouldn't work, it won't work :) By the
time you see argv, the -O option has been eaten. But why stop at that?

def assertions_working():
    try:
        assert False
    except AssertionError:
        return True
    return False

assert assertions_working()  # refuse to run in -O mode

Can't imagine why that wouldn't work......

ChrisA


From nick.cash at npcinternational.com  Mon Dec 23 14:31:24 2013
From: nick.cash at npcinternational.com (Nick Cash)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:31:24 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpVo0XmOGfdes9v==oXCRqCUheh8f--36j2SSzUePVQYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmpVo0XmOGfdes9v==oXCRqCUheh8f--36j2SSzUePVQYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2cde550ce8d14088af8962b349585382@DM2PR06MB542.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

> assert assertions_working()  # refuse to run in -O mode
> 
> Can't imagine why that wouldn't work......

Why overthink this? 

assert not sys.flags.optimize

is clearly the one, and only one, obvious way to do it. 

Of course, it works about as well as the rest of these solutions. Which is to say, not at all.

-Nick Cash


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 23 22:41:22 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:41:22 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52b90263$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Roy Smith wrote:

> So, here's the deeper question. ?Is your issue strictly that -O elides
> assert statements?  That's a purely mechanical issue that could be
> solved by using the rather more verbose:
> 
> if not condition:
>     raise AssertionError("....")
> 
> Would you feel differently then?


Not quite. As I said in my initial rant, there's also the issue of using an
appropriate exception. Naming is important for comprehending what the code
does. Just as it's bad to do:

my_list = 42
my_str = [my_list * 2]


so it's bad to have badly chosen exceptions:

def handle_string(s):
    if not isinstance(s, str):
        raise ImportError("not a string")
    ...


Substitute AssertionError for ImportError:

def handle_string(s):
    if not isinstance(s, str):
        raise AssertionError("not a string")
    ...


and it's still wrong because the exception is misleading and/or confusing to
whoever has to deal with the code.

I've been known to use asserts inside private functions and explicit tests
inside public ones:

def func(x):
    if x <= 0:
        raise ValueError("x must be positive")
    return _func(x + 1)

def _func(x):
    assert x > 1
    return sqrt(1/(x-1))


If I think that the test is checking an internal invariant, assert is okay,
if not, it isn't. In this case, the fact that the actual calculation of
func(x) is factored out into a private function _func is purely an internal
implementation issue. I might refactor the code and move _func inline:

def func(x):
    if x <= 0:
        raise ValueError("x must be positive")
    x += 1
    assert x > 1
    return sqrt(1/(x-1))


in which case the assertion is obviously checking an internal invariant and
therefore acceptable. So it's still checking an internal invariant even
when the code is moved into a purely internal function.

The other rule I use is that if an assert might ever be triggered in the
normal run of the program, it shouldn't be an assert. In principle, we
should run Python code with -O in production.

(It would have been better if Python optimized code by default, and had a -D
switch to turn debugging on, including asserts. I believe that's what
languages like Eiffel do.)



-- 
Steven



From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 23 22:58:59 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 22:58:59 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b86d53$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <e24de24d-f606-463b-8157-b48ce1750c2a@googlegroups.com>
 <52b90263$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-591B88.22585923122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b90263$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > So, here's the deeper question. ??Is your issue strictly that -O elides
> > assert statements?  That's a purely mechanical issue that could be
> > solved by using the rather more verbose:
> > 
> > if not condition:
> >     raise AssertionError("....")
> > 
> > Would you feel differently then?
> 
> 
> Not quite. As I said in my initial rant, there's also the issue of using an
> appropriate exception.
> [...]
> If I think that the test is checking an internal invariant, assert is okay,
> if not, it isn't.

Well, in this case, that's what it's doing, so I guess I'm good :-)


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 26 20:37:40 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:37:40 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:

> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all my 
> confidence testing!"

How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;

        assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"

I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 20:44:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:44:35 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
>> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all my
>> confidence testing!"
>
> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
>
>         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
>
> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.

assert second >= self.current_second, "user changed the clock"

ChrisA


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 21:27:41 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:27:41 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
References: <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq6j46Vp7kufw8dpCfs75M4-bYuTABkT8sv2w-jMvw1kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:44:35 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>
> declaimed the following:
>
>>On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>>> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
>>>
>>>         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
>>>
>>> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.
>>
>>assert second >= self.current_second, "user changed the clock"
>>
>         Why blame the user if an NTP synch made the adjustment? <G>

True, it could have been NTP, or maybe the original assert was right
and we're on the other side of an event horizon. But it's much more
fun to blame the user.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 26 23:29:30 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:29:30 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber
> <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:44:35 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com>
> > declaimed the following:
> >
> >>On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> >>> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
> >>>
> >>>         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
> >>>
> >>> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.
> >>
> >>assert second >= self.current_second, "user changed the clock"
> >>
> >         Why blame the user if an NTP synch made the adjustment? <G>
> 
> True, it could have been NTP, or maybe the original assert was right
> and we're on the other side of an event horizon. But it's much more
> fun to blame the user.
> 
> ChrisA

NTP is never supposed to move the clock backwards.  If your system clock 
is fast, it's supposed to reduce the rate your clock runs until it's 
back in sync.  Well, maybe it only does that for small corrections?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 23:40:27 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:40:27 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
References: <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmphe20CcXfNVhMbvz147nhLQOyW8DuQ9o8qMent5v9ivw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> NTP is never supposed to move the clock backwards.  If your system clock
> is fast, it's supposed to reduce the rate your clock runs until it's
> back in sync.  Well, maybe it only does that for small corrections?

The exact rules are tweakable, but yes, it slews for small corrections
and steps for larger ones.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 11:42:36 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:42:36 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:29:30 -0500, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> declaimed the
> following:
> 
> >
> >NTP is never supposed to move the clock backwards.  If your system clock 
> >is fast, it's supposed to reduce the rate your clock runs until it's 
> >back in sync.  Well, maybe it only does that for small corrections?
> 
> 	Especially likely when one considers that M$ Windows only does a time
> synch once a week.

When I attempt to reason about what is possible and what is impossible 
in a program, I assume a sane universe.  Windows violates that 
assumption.  I am not responsible for what happens after that.

People complain that Python 3 has been out for 5 years and the world is 
still dragging its feet upgrading from Python 2.  NTP has been around 
for almost 30 years.

Keeping a bunch of clocks on a network in sync is a solved problem.  The 
world really needs to move on to new problems like how to deal with more 
than 2^32 devices on a network.  Or how to deal with languages where 26 
letters isn't enough.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 12:09:32 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:39:32 +0530
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeocWuAc1XWOx-+6UcpAUAOPmx7D7i2DNPTsDuDchH5c3tA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Dennis Lee Bieber  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:29:30 -0500, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> declaimed the
>> following:
>>
>> >
>> >NTP is never supposed to move the clock backwards.  If your system clock
>> >is fast, it's supposed to reduce the rate your clock runs until it's
>> >back in sync.  Well, maybe it only does that for small corrections?
>>
>>       Especially likely when one considers that M$ Windows only does a time
>> synch once a week.
>
> When I attempt to reason about what is possible and what is impossible
> in a program, I assume a sane universe.

Hmm...
Any clues for a pathway to this alternate universe?
:D


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 16:24:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 08:24:48 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>
References: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp5d39c-1ntk7G-r0MTwXk+4P2MRaAM-ACu3znw2HSuBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> Keeping a bunch of clocks on a network in sync is a solved problem.  The
> world really needs to move on to new problems like how to deal with more
> than 2^32 devices on a network.  Or how to deal with languages where 26
> letters isn't enough.

*clap* Very tidy, finding two examples that were both solved in 1996. I like.

ChrisA


From pecore at pascolo.net  Fri Dec 27 18:59:51 2013
From: pecore at pascolo.net (pecore at pascolo.net)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 00:59:51 +0100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <auopb99a1i8inecamenpkb2s3cj53r2dr4@4ax.com>
 <mailman.4645.1388111765.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4A039A.23293026122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4668.1388160953.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <877gap9760.fsf@pascolo.net>

Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:

> Or how to deal with languages where 26 letters isn't enough.

English! that is, imvho
English is in sore need
of some more letters[*]
and of diacriticals too
                      g
[*] unable to quantify!


From gheskett at wdtv.com  Fri Dec 27 19:12:46 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 19:12:46 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <877gap9760.fsf@pascolo.net>
References: <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <roy-24A030.11423627122013@news.panix.com> <877gap9760.fsf@pascolo.net>
Message-ID: <201312271912.46515.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Friday 27 December 2013 19:07:08 pecore at pascolo.net did opine:

> Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> writes:
> > Or how to deal with languages where 26 letters isn't enough.
> 
> English! that is, imvho
> English is in sore need
> of some more letters[*]
> and of diacriticals too
>                       g
> [*] unable to quantify!

You know, this gentleman is indeed correct.  But since that is all I have 
ever been speaking/reading/writing for almost 80 years, please have the 
courtesy of waiting to extend the character set and grammatical rules until 
after I've passed.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

If one studies too zealously, one easily loses his pants.
		-- A. Einstein.
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From python.list at tim.thechases.com  Thu Dec 26 21:50:02 2013
From: python.list at tim.thechases.com (Tim Chase)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:50:02 -0600
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131226205002.5d2d8563@bigbox.christie.dr>

On 2013-12-27 12:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> >  Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> >  
> >> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions
> >> for all my confidence testing!"  
> >
> > How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
> >
> >         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went
> > backwards"
> >
> > I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.  
> 
> assert second >= self.current_second, "user changed the clock"

There appears to be a Whovian at the wheel...

>>> from getpass import getuser
>>> getuser()
'doctor4'


Or perhaps a Star Trek fan:

>>> from startrek.movie import episode
>>> episode()
4


It's-clearly-past-my-bedtime-or-is-it-before'ly yers,

-tkc







From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 27 13:00:38 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 18:00:38 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <CAPTjJmq0zJzZM11d-wnCX+aTFOfJHSgp7Hq6JBJOBDdy88FSwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9kf7v$b35$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 27/12/2013 01:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>>   Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all my
>>> confidence testing!"
>>
>> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
>>
>>          assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
>>
>> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.
>
> assert second >= self.current_second, "user changed the clock"
>
> ChrisA
>

assert "shoot admin who gave user too much privilege" ?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 26 23:39:57 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:39:57 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> 
>> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all
>> my confidence testing!"
> 
> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
> 
>         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
> 
> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.

Time goes backwards by one hour[1] at least once a year across most of the
world. 

http://infiniteundo.com/post/25509354022/more-falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time-wisdom



[1] Unless it's less than an hour. Or more than one hour.


-- 
Steven



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 23:45:07 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:45:07 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrXq_zMMqS68eGY_yCeJJDXbvUPU_u2nk-QXZ4dnKndsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Time goes backwards by one hour[1] at least once a year across most of the
> world.
>
> http://infiniteundo.com/post/25509354022/more-falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time-wisdom
>
> [1] Unless it's less than an hour. Or more than one hour.

Kinda. That should be accompanied by a change in UTC offset,
indicating that time hasn't gone backwards, just the clock. Anything
that queries the clock in UTC shouldn't see it go backward. But if
there's a time server that's misconfigured, and it actually jumps time
backward, then yes, you could see NTP change the time back by an hour
once a year. It's wrong, but it certainly can happen.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 00:05:42 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:05:42 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-53DCC5.00054227122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> > In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
> >  Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> > 
> >> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all
> >> my confidence testing!"
> > 
> > How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
> > 
> >         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
> > 
> > I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.
> 
> Time goes backwards by one hour[1] at least once a year across most of the
> world. 

Only if you're stupid enough to run your systems in local time.

> http://infiniteundo.com/post/25509354022/more-falsehoods-programmers-believe-a
> bout-time-wisdom

Most of those deal with things like daylight saving time and time zones 
and calendars, which are all far more complicated (and chaotic) than 
just keeping track of UTC timestamps.

There's lists like that for names and genders too.  As in, what do you 
mean there are people who don't have exactly two names and one gender?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:15:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:15:48 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <roy-53DCC5.00054227122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-53DCC5.00054227122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqd6EUQYnVtD7TjMeAHd+RL1JVnrB1COMDPCpJmGpHrWA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> There's lists like that for names and genders too.  As in, what do you
> mean there are people who don't have exactly two names and one gender?

And addresses, too. The only way to reliably query the user for an
address is with a single field in which s/he may type anything at
all... and that freedom includes the possibility of making a right
hash of it and having delivery fail.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 00:41:25 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:41:25 -0500
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
 <52bd049d$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-53DCC5.00054227122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4653.1388121800.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-00F54F.00412427122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4653.1388121800.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> > There's lists like that for names and genders too.  As in, what do you
> > mean there are people who don't have exactly two names and one gender?
> 
> And addresses, too. The only way to reliably query the user for an
> address is with a single field in which s/he may type anything at
> all... and that freedom includes the possibility of making a right
> hash of it and having delivery fail.
> 
> ChrisA

You're assuming people *have* addresses.

A bunch of years ago (I'm probably dating myself), there was a legal 
ruling in New York that having an address was not a requirement to 
register to vote.  The case in question had to do with a homeless person 
who was refused registration because he didn't have an address.


From invalid at invalid.invalid  Mon Dec 30 12:36:34 2013
From: invalid at invalid.invalid (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 17:36:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-3D1D2D.23572922122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4553.1387804133.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-67C948.10105023122013@news.panix.com>
 <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-CEC4D2.20374026122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l9sav2$87v$1@reader1.panix.com>

On 2013-12-27, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.4567.1387819120.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>  Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
>> Mostly I don't want newbies thinking "Hey!  I can use assertions for all my 
>> confidence testing!"
>
> How about this one, that I wrote yesterday;
>
>         assert second >= self.current_second, "time went backwards"
>
> I think that's pretty high up on the "can never happen" list.

It's not that high (depending on where you're getting "second" from).
If the "second" is from the time of day, and the NTP daemon (or the
system admin) decides the clock needs a stepwise adjustment, the time
of day can go backwards.

-- 
Grant



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec 23 07:38:23 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 04:38:23 -0800
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52B82EBF.2080906@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/22/2013 06:33 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>          else:
>>              assert 0, "can't create picker (classes = %s)" % classes
>
> ?Ay, caramba! I was with you until the very last line. The above code is
> possibly buggy and inappropriately designed. [...]
>
> First, the bug: there are circumstances where no exception is raised even if
> all the strategies fail.

Since Steven wasn't explicit about the circumstances, I'll list the two I'm aware of:  if Python is started with -O or 
-OO then assertions are cut from the code and do not run:

   ethan at media:~/source/python/issue19995$ ./python -O
   Python 3.4.0b1 (default:be22ffb4fdf1, Dec 20 2013, 12:26:10)
   [GCC 4.7.3] on linux
   Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
   --> assert 0, "Testing"
   --> # no exception raised


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 10:22:17 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:22:17 +0000
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <tjkgb91i92ujtb7lonn7v7gbaump47ih1p@4ax.com>
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <tjkgb91i92ujtb7lonn7v7gbaump47ih1p@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <l99kev$64q$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 15:12, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:33:08 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
>
>> Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>          else:
>>>              assert 0, "can't create picker (classes = %s)" % classes
>>
>> ?Ay, caramba! I was with you until the very last line. The above code is
>> possibly buggy and inappropriately designed. (I may be completely
>> misinterpreting this, in which case feel free to ignore the following
>> rant.)
>>
>
> 	I'd think the biggest problem with this is that if one runs Python with
> optimization turned on, the assert statement itself vanishes, leaving one
> with an empty else clause...
>
> 	Try debugging that problem!
>

I'll pass on that one :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 23 12:13:19 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 04:13:19 +1100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <mailman.4500.1387739297.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b782db$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5F73A5.20241022122013@news.panix.com>
 <52b7a0e4$0$29994$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4559.1387811582.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b86f30$0$29975$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 13:33:08 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> declaimed the following:
> 
>>Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>         else:
>>>             assert 0, "can't create picker (classes = %s)" % classes
>>
>>?Ay, caramba! I was with you until the very last line. The above code is
>>possibly buggy and inappropriately designed. (I may be completely
>>misinterpreting this, in which case feel free to ignore the following
>>rant.)
>>
> 
> I'd think the biggest problem with this is that if one runs Python with
> optimization turned on, the assert statement itself vanishes, leaving one
> with an empty else clause...
> 
> Try debugging that problem!


Actually, that's not correct. If the assert statement vanishes, so does the
else clause, since there's nothing in it.


[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 -c "from dis import dis
> code = compile('''\
> for x in [1, 2, 3]:
>     pass
> else:
>     assert x
> ''', '', 'exec')
> dis(code)"""
  1           0 SETUP_LOOP              35 (to 38)
              3 LOAD_CONST               0 (1)
              6 LOAD_CONST               1 (2)
              9 LOAD_CONST               2 (3)
             12 BUILD_LIST               3
             15 GET_ITER
        >>   16 FOR_ITER                 6 (to 25)
             19 STORE_NAME               0 (x)

  2          22 JUMP_ABSOLUTE           16
        >>   25 POP_BLOCK

  4          26 LOAD_NAME                0 (x)
             29 POP_JUMP_IF_TRUE        38
             32 LOAD_GLOBAL              1 (AssertionError)
             35 RAISE_VARARGS            1
        >>   38 LOAD_CONST               3 (None)
             41 RETURN_VALUE


Compare to the case with optimizations on:


[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 -O -c "from dis import dis
code = compile('''\
for x in [1, 2, 3]:
    pass
else:
    assert x
''', '', 'exec')
dis(code)"""
  1           0 SETUP_LOOP              23 (to 26)
              3 LOAD_CONST               0 (1)
              6 LOAD_CONST               1 (2)
              9 LOAD_CONST               2 (3)
             12 BUILD_LIST               3
             15 GET_ITER
        >>   16 FOR_ITER                 6 (to 25)
             19 STORE_NAME               0 (x)

  2          22 JUMP_ABSOLUTE           16
        >>   25 POP_BLOCK

  4     >>   26 LOAD_CONST               3 (None)
             29 RETURN_VALUE





-- 
Steven



From __peter__ at web.de  Sun Dec 22 14:26:15 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:26:15 +0100
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
References: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <l97ec4$c4c$1@ger.gmane.org>

Frank Cui wrote:

> hey guys,
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions
> should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or
> more pythonic way to do this other than the following ?
> if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> Thanks for your input.
> frank

funcs = a, b, c

# option 1
for f in funcs:
    if f():
        break

# option 2
any(f() for f in funcs)




From ycui at outlook.com  Sun Dec 22 13:59:51 2013
From: ycui at outlook.com (Frank Cui)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:59:51 -0300
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <l97ec4$c4c$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>,
 <l97ec4$c4c$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <BAY176-W25B071F864C00CC8CB8982DAC60@phx.gbl>

Thanks, this looks beautiful
> To: python-list at python.org
> From: __peter__ at web.de
> Subject: Re: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
> Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:26:15 +0100
> 
> Frank Cui wrote:
> 
> > hey guys,
> > I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of
> > executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions
> > should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or
> > more pythonic way to do this other than the following ?
> > if a() == 0:    if b() == 0:        c()
> > Thanks for your input.
> > frank
> 
> funcs = a, b, c
> 
> # option 1
> for f in funcs:
>     if f():
>         break
> 
> # option 2
> any(f() for f in funcs)
> 
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
 		 	   		  
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From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Sun Dec 22 14:21:06 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:21:06 -0800
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <52B73BA2.2080406@islandtraining.com>

On 12/22/2013 10:37 AM, Frank Cui wrote:
> hey guys,
>
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of 
> executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions 
> should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or 
> more pythonic way to do this other than the following ?
>
> if a() == 0:
>     if b() == 0:
>         c()
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> frank
>
>
This would seem to do the same as your code and could easily be extended 
to your "bunch" of things:

exes = [a, b, c]

for e in exes:
   if e() != 0:
     break
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From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 17:32:50 2013
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:32:50 -0800
Subject: cascading python executions only if return code is 0
In-Reply-To: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY176-W34BAA8F2DF045E2B8CAC7ADAC60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0EE5E1D3-1D06-4307-8F97-47F249A74E14@gmail.com>


On Dec 22, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Frank Cui <ycui at outlook.com> wrote:

> hey guys,
> 
> I have a requirement where I need to sequentially execute a bunch of executions, each execution has a return code. the followed executions should only be executed if the return code is 0. is there a cleaner or more pythonic way to do this other than the following ? 
> 
> if a() == 0:
>     if b() == 0:
>         c()

I know I?m a little late to the game on this one. Good answers and interesting discussions (and sometimes not). In some situations, I might do something like the following. It depends on just how many functions your cascading, and how arbitrary or pluggable those are.

If your model is that you have a sort of todo list of functions to execute (more than 3 or so), you might want to separate the definition of that run list from the logic that executes them. Given something like:

def a():
  print(?Aye?)
  return 0

def b():
  print(?Bee?)
  return 0

def c():
  print(?See?)
  return 0

def d():
  print(?Dee?)
  return 1

def e():
  print(?Eee?)
  return 1

You do the nested if as you original proposed or the chained or as also proposed. Or you could put the commands in a list:

script = [
  a,
  b,
  c,
  d,
  e]

This gives you a nice succinct list of stuff that needs to be done, not to different if you?d just coded it with no or logic, e.g.

a
b
c
d
e

Refactoring/evolving them then feels the same.

To run the script we could do it the good ol? C'ish way:

for step in script:
  if step() != 0:
    break

But we have more functional style stuff via builtins which can capture that pattern:

ranToEnd = all(step() == 0 for step in script)

So IF you?re use case lends itself to separation of the ?list of stuff to do? and the ?logic to execute said list?, then? this approach might be appealing.

Travis Griggs


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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:50:03 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 00:50:03 GMT
Subject: testing
Message-ID: <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Is this thing still working?

-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 20:26:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:26:48 +1100
Subject: testing
In-Reply-To: <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqb3mq9+nCnhymuG__T8u5dNZvV0dHfRNjCJ_G8_Hts_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 11:50 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Is this thing still working?

Working fine. I saw three messages from you in the other thread.

Sending to you as well as the list in case you're not receiving.

ChrisA


From roy at panix.com  Sun Dec 22 20:26:56 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:26:56 -0500
Subject: testing
References: <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-4BDE3C.20265622122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Is this thing still working?

Yes.  Do you want to know how many times your previous message was 
posted? :-)


From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:05:38 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:05:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python socket query
Message-ID: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
   I am trying to write a TCP socket program in python. I am using python 2.6 in linux. 

I referred following link:
http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/tutorials/l-pysocks/section4.html
I am actually writing the client-side stream socket.
I wrote a small program which creates the socket, bind to the socket, connect to socket and send() close(). I see that there is no reply coming from server and the TCP disconnect happens.
import socket

def tcp(host, request, port=34567):

s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)

s.connect((host, port))

s.send(request)

reply = s.recv(2**14)

s.close()

return reply

My problem is even if the request is sent the length(reply) is is 0. I tried to put a timeout of 1 sec s.settimeout() call after the send call but it doesnot help.

I tried by commenting s.close() still it did not work.

Any idea what is the problem?

Regards

Pradeep


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:19:30 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:19:30 +1100
Subject: python socket query
In-Reply-To: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>
References: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpWDb+PqWXy5=d=5JdQJZ+Ko5QnsGDXT7K7Rtmw--T-Sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:05 PM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
> I wrote a small program which creates the socket, bind to the socket, connect to socket and send() close(). I see that there is no reply coming from server and the TCP disconnect happens.
> import socket
>
> def tcp(host, request, port=34567):
>
> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
>
> s.connect((host, port))
>
> s.send(request)
>
> reply = s.recv(2**14)
>
> s.close()
>
> return reply

First off, your formatting has become mangled. This is likely to be
because of Google Groups, which tends to make a mess of posts. I
strongly recommend you get a better newsreader, such as Thunderbird,
or switch to the mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

I'm going to assume that (a) the code you've provided is all part of
the tcp() function, and (b) that you are actually calling tcp()
somewhere and seeing what comes back. But once you sort out your
posting issues, you may want to post a complete program (probably not
more than a couple of additional lines beyond what you have above) so
we know what's actually going on.

Terminology point: You mention binding to the socket. In networking,
"bind" has a specific meaning - binding to an address, usually done
for servers, and something you're not doing here.

Are you sure the server's doing something? I tried what you had there
(albeit under Python 3.3), and it seems to be fine. Perhaps you need
to terminate the request with something - maybe a newline. The send()
method will send exactly the bytes you give it, nothing more.

Can you telnet to the server?

ChrisA


From piet at vanoostrum.org  Mon Dec 23 08:23:24 2013
From: piet at vanoostrum.org (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:23:24 +0100
Subject: python socket query
References: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <m2y53bn1kj.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

smilesonisamal at gmail.com writes:

> Hi,
>    I am trying to write a TCP socket program in python. I am using python 2.6 in linux. 
>
> I referred following link:
> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/tutorials/l-pysocks/section4.html
> I am actually writing the client-side stream socket.
> I wrote a small program which creates the socket, bind to the socket, connect to socket and send() close(). I see that there is no reply coming from server and the TCP disconnect happens.
> import socket
>
> def tcp(host, request, port=34567):
>
> s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
>
> s.connect((host, port))
>
> s.send(request)
>
> reply = s.recv(2**14)
>
> s.close()
>
> return reply
>
> My problem is even if the request is sent the length(reply) is is 0. I tried to put a timeout of 1 sec s.settimeout() call after the send call but it doesnot help.
>
> I tried by commenting s.close() still it did not work.
>
> Any idea what is the problem?

Length(reply) == 0 means that the other side closed the socket without sending anything back.
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet at vanoostrum.org>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]


From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 22:33:00 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:33:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: python socket query
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4524.1387768779.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4524.1387768779.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bc97bf22-8091-41ca-8e86-5a044672a6be@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 23, 2013 8:49:30 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:05 PM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I wrote a small program which creates the socket, bind to the socket, connect to socket and send() close(). I see that there is no reply coming from server and the TCP disconnect happens.
> 
> > import socket
> 
> >
> 
> > def tcp(host, request, port=34567):
> 
> >
> 
> > s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
> 
> >
> 
> > s.connect((host, port))
> 
> >
> 
> > s.send(request)
> 
> >
> 
> > reply = s.recv(2**14)
> 
> >
> 
> > s.close()
> 
> >
> 
> > return reply
> 
> 
> 
> First off, your formatting has become mangled. This is likely to be
> 
> because of Google Groups, which tends to make a mess of posts. I
> 
> strongly recommend you get a better newsreader, such as Thunderbird,
> 
> or switch to the mailing list:
> 
> 
> 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to assume that (a) the code you've provided is all part of
> 
> the tcp() function, and (b) that you are actually calling tcp()
> 
> somewhere and seeing what comes back. But once you sort out your
> 
> posting issues, you may want to post a complete program (probably not
> 
> more than a couple of additional lines beyond what you have above) so
> 
> we know what's actually going on.
> 
> 
> 
> Terminology point: You mention binding to the socket. In networking,
> 
> "bind" has a specific meaning - binding to an address, usually done
> 
> for servers, and something you're not doing here.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure the server's doing something? I tried what you had there
> 
> (albeit under Python 3.3), and it seems to be fine. Perhaps you need
> 
> to terminate the request with something - maybe a newline. The send()
> 
> method will send exactly the bytes you give it, nothing more.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you telnet to the server?
> 
> 
> 
Thanks Chris.I have put bind call but it did not work.  
Even telnet hangs if i tried to connect to the same IP and port manually. Is there a workaround to fix this issue?

If the socket gets closed at the other end. How can we get around with the issue? Any idea?
> ChrisA



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 22:54:52 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 14:54:52 +1100
Subject: python socket query
In-Reply-To: <bc97bf22-8091-41ca-8e86-5a044672a6be@googlegroups.com>
References: <3cea84e7-bfd5-4feb-b786-96a3501ffcf4@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4524.1387768779.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bc97bf22-8091-41ca-8e86-5a044672a6be@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo9wG8gb7ghQFwNesAG6PE_yzimRtEkgzt=x2DXEK5-MA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 2:33 PM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Chris.I have put bind call but it did not work.
> Even telnet hangs if i tried to connect to the same IP and port manually. Is there a workaround to fix this issue?
>
> If the socket gets closed at the other end. How can we get around with the issue? Any idea?

Normally, bind isn't necessary for client connections. It's almost
never significant, unless you have multiple IP addresses or you
actually need to specify the port.

If telnet hangs, you need to figure out what your server is doing.
Without knowing the server at all, I can't really help.

But please, have a look at how your post comes out:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/663308.html

All those messy blank lines are because of Google Groups. There are
other problems, as well. Please, can you switch to a better client, so
we don't have to wade through that mess? Mozilla Thunderbird is one
good option, or you can join the mailing list:

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Thanks!

ChrisA


From qh.resu01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:20:47 2013
From: qh.resu01 at gmail.com (Kevin Peterson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 03:20:47 +0000
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
Message-ID: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>

Hi, 

I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code. I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread in the net), 

    #!/usr/bin/python 
    import android droid = android.Android()
    # go to airplane mode
     droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
     
    droid.makeToast('exiting')

I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'. 

One important thing is, I want to be able to do this without the need to reboot the Android device and any other working solution is also fine long as it is invokeable through Python.

Thanks,
Kevin Peterson




From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:33:05 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:33:05 +1100
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpovuNNuqnMujPZjv9ew20puT108oM_RSWNyRCuzR=WPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code. I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread in the net),
>
>     #!/usr/bin/python
>     import android droid = android.Android()
>     # go to airplane mode
>      droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>
>     droid.makeToast('exiting')
>
> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.

Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list (with
all the same content):

https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

ChrisA


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:41:09 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:41:09 -0700
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52B7B0D5.4060804@gmail.com>

On 12/22/2013 08:20 PM, Kevin Peterson wrote:
> Hi, 
> 
> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread
> in the net),
> 
>     #!/usr/bin/python 
>     import android droid = android.Android()
>     # go to airplane mode
>      droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>      
>     droid.makeToast('exiting')
> 
> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'. 

Is that really how your code is formatted? The import line is an error.

try:

import android


droid = android.Android()



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sun Dec 22 22:59:27 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:59:27 -0500
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <52B7B0D5.4060804@gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <52B7B0D5.4060804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l98cek$8qp$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/13 10:41 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 08:20 PM, Kevin Peterson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread
>> in the net),
>>
>>      #!/usr/bin/python
>>      import android droid = android.Android()
>>      # go to airplane mode
>>       droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>
>>      droid.makeToast('exiting')
>>
>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
>
> Is that really how your code is formatted? The import line is an error.
>
> try:
>
> import android
>
>
> droid = android.Android()
>

The OP reported an error of "no such attribute Android", it's pretty 
obvious that he isn't getting a syntax error.  We can assume the code 
has been mangled in the posting.

Your code sample (once the obvious formatting errors have been fixed) is 
identical to ones I've found online, so I assume it should work.

My best guess is that you have named your own file android.py, shadowing 
the library you're trying to import.  Name it something else, delete all 
the *.pyc files in your directory, and try again.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From qh.resu01 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 07:45:07 2013
From: qh.resu01 at gmail.com (Kevin Peterson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 18:15:07 +0530
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <l98cek$8qp$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <52B7B0D5.4060804@gmail.com> <l98cek$8qp$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAMZ7rGmsL-uvZtLzbzYD923iNUJannEbBcLKrn2w+kfuxXekgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ned,

I havenot named it as android.py and there are no .pyc files in my
directory.

Here is the snapshot
$ python
Python 2.7.2 (default, Jul 20 2013, 22:54:57)
[GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import android
>>> droid = android.Android()
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'Android'
>>>

Thanks,


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com>wrote:

> On 12/22/13 10:41 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/2013 08:20 PM, Kevin Peterson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is widespread
>>> in the net),
>>>
>>>      #!/usr/bin/python
>>>      import android droid = android.Android()
>>>      # go to airplane mode
>>>       droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>>
>>>      droid.makeToast('exiting')
>>>
>>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
>>>
>>
>> Is that really how your code is formatted? The import line is an error.
>>
>> try:
>>
>> import android
>>
>>
>> droid = android.Android()
>>
>>
> The OP reported an error of "no such attribute Android", it's pretty
> obvious that he isn't getting a syntax error.  We can assume the code has
> been mangled in the posting.
>
> Your code sample (once the obvious formatting errors have been fixed) is
> identical to ones I've found online, so I assume it should work.
>
> My best guess is that you have named your own file android.py, shadowing
> the library you're trying to import.  Name it something else, delete all
> the *.pyc files in your directory, and try again.
>
> --
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 23 08:35:03 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:35:03 -0500
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAMZ7rGmsL-uvZtLzbzYD923iNUJannEbBcLKrn2w+kfuxXekgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <52B7B0D5.4060804@gmail.com> <l98cek$8qp$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAMZ7rGmsL-uvZtLzbzYD923iNUJannEbBcLKrn2w+kfuxXekgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l99e5s$s6j$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/23/13 7:45 AM, Kevin Peterson wrote:
> Hi Ned,
>
> I havenot named it as android.py and there are no .pyc files in my
> directory.
>
> Here is the snapshot
> $ python
> Python 2.7.2 (default, Jul 20 2013, 22:54:57)
> [GCC 4.4.3] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>  >>> import android
>  >>> droid = android.Android()
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'Android'
>  >>>
>
> Thanks,

Hmm, then perhaps your android module is not the one you think it is. 
Try this to see what you get:

     >>> import android
     >>> print android
     .. this will show where it's imported from ..
     >>> dir(android)
     .. this will show the names available in the android module ..
     .. if any of them look like __version__ or VERSION, print that
     >>> android.__version__


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 22 23:52:40 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 20:52:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>

On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
>> widespread in the net),
>> 
>>    #!/usr/bin/python
>>    import android droid = android.Android()
>>    # go to airplane mode
>>     droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>
>>    droid.makeToast('exiting')
>> 
>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
> 
> Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is 
> actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented 
> incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be 
> why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like 
> Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
> (with all the same content)

My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted 
from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.

Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
that it was GG's fault.

If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please 
don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.

Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
want to take a look at 
 https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG 
clique here.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 00:37:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:37:35 +1100
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpa+DZzBmi06Rxgnq9zoFEDpsSB29a3q+yW674KEN6Vtg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 3:52 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.

Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

ChrisA


From qh.resu01 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 00:38:50 2013
From: qh.resu01 at gmail.com (Kevin Peterson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:08:50 +0530
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMZ7rGn-tS+xjB5vHJEvrHtYRjudh+fazBqdMRaytxVQgVWQ+A@mail.gmail.com>

I will take care.

Thanks,


On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:22 AM, <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
> >> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
> >> widespread in the net),
> >>
> >>    #!/usr/bin/python
> >>    import android droid = android.Android()
> >>    # go to airplane mode
> >>     droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
> >>
> >>    droid.makeToast('exiting')
> >>
> >> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
> >
> > Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
> > actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
> > incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
> > why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
> > Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
> > (with all the same content)
>
> My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted
> from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.
>
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.
>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
> want to take a look at
>  https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 01:34:57 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 06:34:57 +0000
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l98li5$oue$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 04:52, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 08:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am trying to control Aeroplane mode on Android using Python code.
>>> I am running QPyPlus python. When I execute this code(that is
>>> widespread in the net),
>>>
>>>     #!/usr/bin/python
>>>     import android droid = android.Android()
>>>     # go to airplane mode
>>>      droid.toggleAirplaneMode()
>>>
>>>     droid.makeToast('exiting')
>>>
>>> I get the error 'no such attribute Android()'.
>>
>> Python code is sensitive to changes in whitespace. The above is
>> actually a syntax error, because lines have been merged and indented
>> incorrectly. You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which may be
>> why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like
>> Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list
>> (with all the same content)
>
> My electricity went out right around the time the OP posted
> from Google Groups, that too was undoubtedly GG's fault.
>
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.
>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.  You might
> want to take a look at
>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.
>

We are *NOT* anti-GG, we've anti-reading double spaced crap, continuous 
single lines instead of proper paragraphs and badly formed Python source 
code amongst other things.  We *DON'T* as a rule of thumb get this 
problem from any source except GG.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 01:59:51 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:59:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
could share with us?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 03:46:23 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:46:23 +1100
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo16ewLNmzQ-y+Vcffk6r8ZHEu8e__jtYX_DRJ+M-H8Fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
> could share with us?

Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
know this to be true!

Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
has perfectly viable alternatives? Why is it so important to you? When
you use an ad-funded service, you are paying for it. When you pay for
a service, you send a message that it is the one you want to use. I
use Google Search because it is excellent; other people feel it's too
invasive of privacy and use DuckDuckGo instead. If DDG were hopelessly
buggy, people would argue against its use - *especially* if that
bugginess caused problems for other people. (Imagine if its crawler
violated robots.txt and common sense, and caused problems for web
servers.) How would the owners/authors of DDG feel if they produced
stupidly buggy software but everyone used it anyway? Pretty well
justified, I would think, and so there'd be no reason for them to put
effort into fixing the bugs.

I'm happy to use all sorts of "free" (aka ad-funded) services - Google
Search, Gmail, Kongregate, The Pirate Bay, Google Docs, Stack
Overflow, IMDB... endless list. I use them because they are good, or
at least because they are better than the alternatives. With some of
them, there's a lock-in effect from the community. If you hate Stack
Overflow, for instance, you have to bypass a whole lot of potential
information. But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
it?

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 04:18:36 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:18:36 +0000
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmo16ewLNmzQ-y+Vcffk6r8ZHEu8e__jtYX_DRJ+M-H8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmo16ewLNmzQ-y+Vcffk6r8ZHEu8e__jtYX_DRJ+M-H8Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l98v4q$p3u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 08:46, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>>
>> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
>> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
>> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
>> could share with us?
>
> Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
> know this to be true!
>
> Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
> favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
> has perfectly viable alternatives?

Big +1

Thinking about it the situation is laughable.  You have an entry on the 
*PYTHON* wiki telling you how to get around bugs in *GOOGLE* code.

>  Why is it so important to you? When
> you use an ad-funded service, you are paying for it. When you pay for
> a service, you send a message that it is the one you want to use. I
> use Google Search because it is excellent; other people feel it's too
> invasive of privacy and use DuckDuckGo instead. If DDG were hopelessly
> buggy, people would argue against its use - *especially* if that
> bugginess caused problems for other people. (Imagine if its crawler
> violated robots.txt and common sense, and caused problems for web
> servers.) How would the owners/authors of DDG feel if they produced
> stupidly buggy software but everyone used it anyway? Pretty well
> justified, I would think, and so there'd be no reason for them to put
> effort into fixing the bugs.
>
> I'm happy to use all sorts of "free" (aka ad-funded) services - Google
> Search, Gmail, Kongregate, The Pirate Bay, Google Docs, Stack
> Overflow, IMDB... endless list. I use them because they are good, or
> at least because they are better than the alternatives. With some of
> them, there's a lock-in effect from the community. If you hate Stack
> Overflow, for instance, you have to bypass a whole lot of potential
> information. But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
> Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
> any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
> it?
>
> ChrisA
>

I dislike stackoverflowe as some of the answers there are blatently 
wrong.  However I'll use it but make certain that the answers can be 
verified before proceeding.  However I feel discriminated against using 
Thunderbird to read this via gmane as there isn't an entry on the python 
wiki telling me how to get around the bugs in this software.  Or is that 
because a) there aren't any b) there aren't enough to worry anybody or 
c) it isn't python's responsibility to write up work arounds for bugs in 
Thunderbird or gmane?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 20:37:38 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:37:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4541.1387788394.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4541.1387788394.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <26650261-4ec5-4406-b588-36625d33c76a@googlegroups.com>

On 12/23/2013 01:46 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:59 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>>
>> And you have determined format errors are coming from GG how exactly?
>> You would need to know the original contents entered into GG, yes?
>> Perhaps you have done experiments to determine these errors that you
>> could share with us?
> 
> Previous people's posts to this very list. Search the archives, you
> know this to be true!

No I don't.  (To be clear: I and you are not talking 
about the quoting problem but with trashing whitespace 
to a degree greater than other mail/usenet software 
does.)
  
If you don't know what was entered into the posting 
interface how can you say with such certainty that 
what was received was different?

> Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, and argue in
> favour of, a piece of software that (a) you know to be buggy, and (b)
> has perfectly viable alternatives?

I have addressed this several times already.  All 
software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any 
software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience, 
goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.  
Others with different experience, goals and use of 
the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

Yet you persist in ignoring that, persist in insisting
that tradeoffs that work for you are best for everyone.

Why do you refuse to see and acknowledge that the work 
involved in subscribing to a list, managing the volume
of mail, and unsubscribing after (to say nothing of 
figuring out arcane usenet), is a lot bigger pain 
than a half dozen mouse clicks to read and post from
GG for many people?

>[...]
> But avoiding Google Groups just means using gmane or
> Thunderbird or python-list, and you get all the same content without
> any loss. So why stick to something that sends mail with mess all over
> it?

It is not (as I just explained to you (yet again) *just*
a matter of using TB or Gmane.  You really need to learn
that your opinion of things is not the gold standard for
the rest of the world.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 05:56:26 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:56:26 +1100
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <26650261-4ec5-4406-b588-36625d33c76a@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4541.1387788394.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <26650261-4ec5-4406-b588-36625d33c76a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrQvc_MQd43+-hkScRBfSiMSBAqw6qusXZNECLyTKUicg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have addressed this several times already.  All
> software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
> problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any
> software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
> bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience,
> goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.
> Others with different experience, goals and use of
> the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

Give me an example of how Thunderbird's problems force *every other
reader* to suffer under them and maybe I'll believe that it's
equivalent.

ChrisA


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 17:16:38 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:16:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4608.1387968995.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <2765f277-2f28-4792-84cf-997c713424cf@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4541.1387788394.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <26650261-4ec5-4406-b588-36625d33c76a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4608.1387968995.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ba63fee1-5c92-4540-93e3-cf51f388c359@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 3:56:26 AM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I have addressed this several times already.  All
> > software is buggy.  I even posted long list on the
> > problems I've had with Thunderbird.  Choosing any
> > software is making a tradeoff of one set of features/-
> > bugs versus another.  For you, with your experience,
> > goals and use of the list, there is one tradeoff.
> > Others with different experience, goals and use of
> > the list may well choose different tradeoffs.

> Give me an example of how Thunderbird's problems force *every other
> reader* to suffer under them and maybe I'll believe that it's 
> equivalent.

1. I never said they are equivalent.
2. Please see my response to Ned B, I'm not going to 
 repeat it again here.
3. Your redirection away from the original subject, your
 unsubstantiated claim the GG is corrupting whitespace
 and my request for evidence, is noted.


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 23 01:09:18 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 22:09:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <08f2b055-c59f-4333-8d26-e31d8b257955@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.

What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you 
determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know 
what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these 
were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share 
with us?


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 05:39:38 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 10:39:38 +0000
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <08f2b055-c59f-4333-8d26-e31d8b257955@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <08f2b055-c59f-4333-8d26-e31d8b257955@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l993sd$c17$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 23/12/2013 06:09, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you
> determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know
> what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these
> were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share
> with us?
>

Yawn.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 11:12:14 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:12:14 +1100
Subject: Airplane mode control using Python?
In-Reply-To: <08f2b055-c59f-4333-8d26-e31d8b257955@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4535.1387777065.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <08f2b055-c59f-4333-8d26-e31d8b257955@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpf0kzMbLsq_nyttVOr7jS9titsP7sk2+gpUzSLm+8s2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:09 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>
> What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you
> determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know
> what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these
> were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share
> with us?

Unless people were lying through their teeth when they said that their
posted code had worked on their system, I can be pretty sure it was
the fault of the delivery mechanism. Dig through the archive. Also,
you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
part.

ChrisA


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 23 06:48:16 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 06:48:16 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
> that it was GG's fault.

Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just* 
"please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them? 
It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the 
code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.

>
> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.

Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No.  People have 
had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's 
not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.

>
> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.

This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you 
understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine. 
But it's a lot of work.

> You might want to take a look at
>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
> clique here.

I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are 
far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely 
that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those 
instructions.

Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They 
need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into 
anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.

Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way 
for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with 
many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either 
of these things isn't true.

But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups" 
list.

I suggest the following:

1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
already gotten help.

2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
  You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
referring to the poster's words.

3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
  It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 11:22:26 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:22:26 +1100
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpMSJc+K6uJSQ4SfPEgu9wpObRJApihXuf1Orv54=O4=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:48 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> I suggest the following:
>
> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have already
> gotten help.
>
> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its results
> "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster.  You mean
> to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also referring to the
> poster's words.

I'm always careful of both of these. When I post alternatives to GG,
it's as part of another informative and on-topic post. If GG annoys me
but I don't have anything useful to say, I just move right along. (And
sometimes even if I do have something useful I could say. Sometimes
it's just not worth the hassle of cleaning up someone's misformatted
code so I can help them.)

> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.  It
> is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

This is where I'm not so good :|

ChrisA


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 20:47:26 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:47:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>

On 12/23/2013 09:12 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:09 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 10:37:35 PM UTC-7, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Actually, formatting errors ARE often caused by Google Groups. Maybe
>>> it wasn't in this instance, but I have seen several cases of GG
>>> mangling code formatting, so this was a perfectly reasonable theory.
>>
>> What sort of formatting errors have you seen and how did you
>> determine it was Google Groups fault?  You would need to know
>> what the original message was, wouldn't you?  Perhaps these
>> were experiments you carried out yourself that you could share
>> with us?
> 
> Unless people were lying through their teeth when they said that their
> posted code had worked on their system,

I don't recall many whitespace-broken posts where
the poster claimed it wasn't what they posted.  In 
the cases I remember they are chided about not copying
and pasting and they either do so or don't respond
further.  

As for lying, people sometimes lie because they 
don't want to admit a mistake.  Or they often are 
just genuinely mistaken (memory is a complex and 
unreliable thing).  So your cynical presumption 
that they must be "lying through their teeth" or 
telling the truth is not is not credible.

And there is more than GG involved when you get a
message from GG.  It has long been a criticism of 
Python's significant whitespace that it is easily 
corrupted by message transports and those criticisms
predate GG.

So, assuming I was actually was unlucky enough to 
miss all the OP claims that GG FU'd their posts
that you claim to have seen, there are still plenty 
of other possible reasons for whitespace corruption
beyond GG.

> I can be pretty sure it was
> the fault of the delivery mechanism.

Bad logic.  *You* can be sure on whatever basis you 
want but to convince anyone else not predisposed to 
your biases, you need quite a bit more than your 
handwaving.

For all I know, you may be right.  But you've not
presented any evidence.  I post from GG and I've not 
noticed any whitespace corruption problems.

> Dig through the archive.

Err, no thanks.  I don't have hours to waste chasing 
down your dubious assertions.  How about you do that 
instead?  And show that the rate is much higher from 
GG than other sources proportionally and that difference
is due to GG and not just a difference in the experience
or skill of the posting populations, or gateway problems
etc.  

> Also,
> you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
> part.

Refresh my memory please.


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec 25 07:19:17 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:19:17 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9eifq$i4j$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/24/13 8:47 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 09:12 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Also,
>> you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
>> part.
>
> Refresh my memory please.
>

Ugh, stop!  We get it: you don't think Google Groups is bad.  Or you 
think it can be made to work, or something.  That's fine.  But you are 
going to have to reason a little more subtly than, "all software has bugs."

As Chris has pointed out, the bugs in Google Groups affect every reader 
of the list.  Bugs in other software don't, at least not to the same extent.

Rurpy, you seem to be willfully ignoring the aggravation people are 
experiencing.  And people who hate Google Groups: you seem to be 
overlooking the fact that it's difficult for the users of Google Groups 
to understand its flaws, or to see the effect it has on the list.

I'll repeat my proposal (for everyone):

1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
already gotten help.

2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
  You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
referring to the poster's words.

3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
  It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

Do you disagree?

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 07:25:58 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:25:58 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <l9eifq$i4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>
 <l9eifq$i4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+zSp-j-sahFgMbfn3P2zOJTJpe7_Yb8NP5Lzjz1ctowFA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com>wrote:

> On 12/24/13 8:47 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>
>> On 12/23/2013 09:12 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>  Also,
>>> you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
>>> part.
>>>
>>
>> Refresh my memory please.
>>
>>
> Ugh, stop!  We get it: you don't think Google Groups is bad.  Or you think
> it can be made to work, or something.  That's fine.  But you are going to
> have to reason a little more subtly than, "all software has bugs."
>
> As Chris has pointed out, the bugs in Google Groups affect every reader of
> the list.  Bugs in other software don't, at least not to the same extent.
>
> Rurpy, you seem to be willfully ignoring the aggravation people are
> experiencing.  And people who hate Google Groups: you seem to be
> overlooking the fact that it's difficult for the users of Google Groups to
> understand its flaws, or to see the effect it has on the list.
>
> I'll repeat my proposal (for everyone):
>
>
> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have
> already gotten help.
>
> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its
> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster.
>  You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also referring to
> the poster's words.
>
> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
>  It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
>
> Do you disagree?
>
>
> --
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


I'm with Ned.  Ned you do a great job lowering the temperature here.  This
group has lots of signal, but alas lots and lots of noise.

So, even though its not my holiday, Merry Christmas to all of you
knuckleheads, and good people!
-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 25 09:26:41 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 01:26:41 +1100
Subject: Google Groups + this list
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4609.1387973972.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52baeb22$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Ned Batchelder wrote:

> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups. ?Politely suggest
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have
> already gotten help.

+1

The *primary purpose* of this list is to help people with Python, not to
enforce some particular part of netiquette to the exclusion of all else.
The part that often gets forgotten is the part about avoiding rudeness and
flame wars, and encouraging a friendly, helpful, inclusive environment.
Netiquette helps with communication, but it is the communication which is
important, not the netiquette itself.


> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups. ?When you call its
> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster.
> You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also
> referring to the poster's words.

+1

While it actually isn't true that you catch more flies with honey than with
vinegar, we don't actually want to catch flies. We want to communicate
with, and educate, human beings.


> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
> It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

+1

"At the head of all understanding is realizing what is and what cannot be,
and the consoling of what is not in our power to change."
-- Solomon ibn Gabirol


Thank you Ned for saying all this.


-- 
Steven



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 17:09:49 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:09:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4609.1387973972.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <l997tl$n8u$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4564.1387815750.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <42b963e8-635c-4e1c-b638-d64384900720@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4609.1387973972.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <da6439fa-32f0-4991-b082-0949c9cc0f79@googlegroups.com>

On 12/25/2013 05:19 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/24/13 8:47 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/23/2013 09:12 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Also,
>>> you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
>>> part.
>> Refresh my memory please.
> 
> Ugh, stop!  

Stop what?  The context you quote has nothing to do
with what you write below.

> We get it: you don't think Google Groups is bad.  

That's not accurate.  I would never characterize GG
with such simplistic terms as "good" or "bad".

> Or you 
> think it can be made to work,

My own posts demonstrate that.  You don't agree?  Why
would you question that I think so?

> or something.  

"or something"?  In other words you *don't* get it.

> That's fine.  But you are 
> going to have to reason a little more subtly than, "all software has bugs."

I have tried to, both in the previous posts and in posts 
going back any months.  Either I have failed to make myself 
clear or (more likely since you (et.al.) consistently cut 
out context and fail to respond directly to what I wrote) 
you choose not to understand.

> As Chris has pointed out, the bugs in Google Groups affect every reader 
> of the list.  Bugs in other software don't, at least not to the same extent.

I understand that.  But (a hypothetical) *I* have to make 
a tradeoff between the features/misfeatures of GG vs TB 
or any other software.  You assume that the negative value 
you assign to GG apply to me.  Wrong.  While I understand 
(for example) that the FU'd quoting is annoying, I don't 
see why you can't just ignore it or skip reading my entire 
post if necessary.  (The non-hypothetical I actually almost 
never reads quoted stuff anyway -- I only do so rarely when
my memory and the main message leaving me unclear about 
something -- and even then it is often easier to go back 
to the OP given the spotty quality of quote trimming, as 
you demonstrate.)
 
And (as I pointed out, multiple times) you fail to evaluate 
as positively as (hypothetical again) I do the benefits GG 
has for me.  (Evidence: Chris' erroneous insistence that 
subscribing to the email list is as easy as using GG.)  So 
my evaluation of the overall benefit/cost for GG relative 
to some other choice is still positive even though your 
evaluation is otherwise.  And I distrust your evaluation
anyway since I *know* (from personal experience that GG 
is easier to use for me than a mailing list) that part of 
your evaluation is wrong. 

What you are saying is that I should use *your* evaluation
of GG (and other options) in making my tradeoffs.  And you 
get very angry when I won't do what you tell me to.

Secondly, the above is a side issue.  Please go back and 
reread the posts in question.  The main point (which you and
Chris lost or did a good job misdirecting away from) is that 
Chris claimed (and you found reasonable to believe) that GG 
corrupts white space in posts.  I have not seen any such 
effect, Chris' explanations were all handwaving, and so 
pending something more convincing I will offer the alternate
explanation that it is just more unjustified disparagement 
of GG and that it constitutes evidence that much of this 
anti-GG sentiment is driven by a "Lord of the Flies" effect
rather than rationality.

> Rurpy, you seem to be willfully ignoring the aggravation people are 
> experiencing.  

"willfully ignoring"?  For someone portraying himself as
a voice of reason in this discuss that's a pretty sleezy
thing to say.  I'll point out I put a small but significant 
amount of work into a wiki page to try to help reduce the 
aggravation people are experiencing which is more than you
or Chris have done.

> And people who hate Google Groups: you seem to be 
> overlooking the fact that it's difficult for the users of Google Groups 
> to understand its flaws, or to see the effect it has on the list.

And in my opinion, overreacting to GG annoyances.  Despite 
claims to the contrary, reading GG posts *will not* make 
you go blind, and they *can* be easily skipped if too 
annoying.  And from comments posted here, there are people 
who find these incessant GG discussions (and frequent 
troll baiting) far more annoying than posts from GG.

> I'll repeat my proposal (for everyone):
> 
> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
> already gotten help.
> 
> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
>   You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
> referring to the poster's words.
> 
> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
>   It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
> 
> Do you disagree?

OK I give up.  You never even bothered to read what you're
responding to.  I specifically wrote regarding the above,
immediately following where you wrote the above:

>> That all sounds fine [...]

When you want to reply to what I wrote rather than what 
you want to believe, we can restart this conversation.
(And no, I don't read your question as directed at 
"everyone" since you would have, given my response, 
specifically excluded me if you'd meant that.)


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 24 20:44:09 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:44:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>

On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
>> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
>> that it was GG's fault.
> 
> Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just* 
> "please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them? 
> It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the 
> code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.
> 
>>
>> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
>> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
> 
> Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No. 

'Stupid" might not have been the most accurate choice
of words but I have no problem with it's strength.
People come here looking for accurate info.  Posting 
unsubstantiated derogatory claims about something 
because one doesn't like that something should not 
be allowed to pass silently.  

It is also important to point it out because people 
who do that also post authoritatively about other
things and readers should be aware how readily such 
people confuse their own opinions and facts.

> People have 
> had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's 
> not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.
 
I think it is unreasonable when one doesn't have any
evidence to support the claim.

>> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
>> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
>> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.
> 
> This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you 
> understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine. 

OK, that's fair enough.

> But it's a lot of work.

No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every 
post I make here).  For a poster who expects to post more 
than once or twice (and thus cares about not alienating 
the anti-GG group) but doesn't expect to be a frequent 
poster it may be perfectly reasonable amount of work 
relative to the work involved with any of the other 
options.

The TB/Usenet promoters simply refuse to (or seem to be
incapable of) understanding that figuring out enough about 
usenet/gmane etc to configure a newreader or managing a 
high volume of emails are what is a "lot of work" to
someone who has been using Google Groups.  I for one don't
want my yahoo email account filled with a hundred or more
email messages a day, all of which I have to click a check
box and a delete button to get rid of.  I don't want those
email delivered to a local email account when I find GG 
allows me to quickly scan for messages of interest and
skip the rest without using local resources.  And I find 
GG UI, while flawed, less flawed than many alternatives.

So don't tell *me* it is a lot of work -- the alternatives 
are more so.

And it is not up to you or Chris to decide what is or 
what isn't "a lot of work" for other people.  If it is 
too much work then they won't do it and will decide 
that using usenet or something else is easier.  But what
you and Chris are missing is that that is *their* decision, 
not yours.
 
>> You might want to take a look at
>>   https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
>> clique here.
> 
> I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are 
> far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely 
> that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those 
> instructions.

Perhaps.  But it is an option that GG users should be 
aware of.

> Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They 
> need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into 
> anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.

And yet you want them to go though the subscription process
for the email list and then deal with dozens, perhaps hundreds
of messages from it every day?  And then figure out how to 
get off it when they're done?

If they're unwilling to do a simple edit on a message before
posting why would anyone think they'd be willing to do all 
the above?

(And to pre-address the obvious potential mis-interpretation:
I am talking about only a subset of posters.  Some *will* 
find email or usenet easier, and to repeat what I said in 
most every post on this subject: offering the option is 
fine, ignoring GG posts if you don't like them is fine. 
But making wrong or unsupported claims like GG corrupts 
whitespace (more than other software) or is harder to use 
than usenet or a mailing list, or makes people go blind 
is wrong.

> Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way 
> for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with 
> many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either 
> of these things isn't true.
> 
> But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups" 
> list.

Please note that all my "argue about Google Groups" responses
have been to correct some form of misinformation about GG that 
someone else posted first.

> I suggest the following:
> 
> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest 
> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have 
> already gotten help.
> 
> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its 
> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster. 
>   You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also 
> referring to the poster's words.
> 
> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups. 
>   It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.

That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG 
crowd more than me.  I would add:

4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt 
to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only 
serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed 
out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it 
bothers you too much.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 20:55:22 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 07:25:22 +0530
Subject: Google Groups + this list
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeofUiP15oPjWPumPMHeYx265o_d+=Qx1kZVzmiFFF1+oQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:39 AM, <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/25/2013 05:19 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > On 12/24/13 8:47 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On 12/23/2013 09:12 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> Also,
> >>> you haven't answered the other part of the post, the more important
> >>> part.
> >> Refresh my memory please.
> >
> > Ugh, stop!
>
> Stop what?  The context you quote has nothing to do
> with what you write below.


This is a test mail

I seem to have been kicked off something or other --
First thought it was google groups -- then saw some mails from Steven
describing similar 'non-reaching' problems.

Anyway for the last couple of days I'm getting mail bounces after
about 24 hours to all my posts (via GG)

So trying a different route -- Does this reach?

[And if it does... Merry Christmas!]


----------------------
Heres the kind of bounce message I get (with emails crossed out)

------------------------
On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Mail Delivery Subsystem
<mailer-daemon AT google> wrote:
>
> Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
>
>      comp.lang.python AT usenet.google.com
>
> ----- Original message -----
>
> X-Received: by 10.50.34.161 with SMTP id a1mr486436igj.5.1387860004581; Mon,
>  23 Dec 2013 20:40:04 -0800 (PST)
> Path: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 20:40:04 -0800 (PST)
> In-Reply-To: <roy...>
> Complaints-To: groups-abuse...
> Injection-Info: glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com; posting-host=59.95.49.205; posting-account=mBpa7woAAAAGLEWUUKpmbxm-Quu5D8ui
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 59.95.49.205
> References: <52b788bb$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>
<roy-4BDE3C.20265622122013 AT >
> User-Agent: G2/1.0
> X-Google-Web-Client: true
> X-Google-IP: 59.95.49.205
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Message-ID: <5125ea95-14cb-43af-bddd-2da87552550f at googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: testing
> From: Rusi <>
> To: comp.lang.python AT ...
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Monday, December 23, 2013 6:56:56 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
> >  Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
>
> > > Is this thing still working?
>
> > Yes.  Do you want to know how many times your previous message was
> > posted? :-)
>
>
> Last couple of days I seem to be kicked off the list
> Just checking whether this gets in
>
> [And if it does, sorry for noise!]


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Wed Dec 25 23:11:46 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:11:46 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/24/13 8:44 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Come on Chris, it is just as easy to make typo or copy-and-
>>> paste errors in any other software as GG, there is no evidence
>>> that it was GG's fault.
>>
>> Can we agree that it's not great to respond to a new poster with *just*
>> "please don't use GG, it's bad" and no actual attempt to help them?
>> It's really unfriendly.  In this case, it wasn't difficult to see the
>> code the OP was asking about, and to try to help them.
>>
>>>
>>> If you want to recommend the mailing list, fine, but please
>>> don't make stupid, unfounded, accusatory suggestions.
>>
>> Rurpy: you're coming on really strong here.  "Stupid"?  No.
>
> 'Stupid" might not have been the most accurate choice
> of words but I have no problem with it's strength.
> People come here looking for accurate info.  Posting
> unsubstantiated derogatory claims about something
> because one doesn't like that something should not
> be allowed to pass silently.

Chris actually said, "You seem to be posting from Google Groups, which 
may be why it's messed up; I recommend switching to something else, like 
Mozilla Thunderbird, or subscribing instead to the mailing list (with 
all the same content)"

This is pretty gentle, and includes words like "may" and "recommend".

Also, let's be clear: I didn't like Chris' message, because it didn't 
attempt to help the OP.

I'm not taking the "don't use Google Groups" side in this debate.  You 
seem to think I am, but I'm not.  My point is, "talk about Python, not 
about Google Groups."

>
> It is also important to point it out because people
> who do that also post authoritatively about other
> things and readers should be aware how readily such
> people confuse their own opinions and facts.
>
>> People have
>> had to deal with the result of Google Groups for a long time, and it's
>> not unreasonable to think that the formatting was its fault.
>
> I think it is unreasonable when one doesn't have any
> evidence to support the claim.
>
>>> Kevin: just for your own info, there are a few people here
>>> who despise Google Groups.  I and many other people post
>>> from Google Groups regularly and it works fine.
>>
>> This is disingenuous.  Google Groups clearly does not work fine.  If you
>> understand its flaws, and care enough to, you can make it work fine.
>
> OK, that's fair enough.
>
>> But it's a lot of work.
>
> No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every
> post I make here).  For a poster who expects to post more
> than once or twice (and thus cares about not alienating
> the anti-GG group) but doesn't expect to be a frequent
> poster it may be perfectly reasonable amount of work
> relative to the work involved with any of the other
> options.

Yes, that's a point I've also been trying to make: we're in agreement here.

>
> The TB/Usenet promoters simply refuse to (or seem to be
> incapable of) understanding that figuring out enough about
> usenet/gmane etc to configure a newreader or managing a
> high volume of emails are what is a "lot of work" to
> someone who has been using Google Groups.  I for one don't
> want my yahoo email account filled with a hundred or more
> email messages a day, all of which I have to click a check
> box and a delete button to get rid of.  I don't want those
> email delivered to a local email account when I find GG
> allows me to quickly scan for messages of interest and
> skip the rest without using local resources.  And I find
> GG UI, while flawed, less flawed than many alternatives.
>
> So don't tell *me* it is a lot of work -- the alternatives
> are more so.
>
> And it is not up to you or Chris to decide what is or
> what isn't "a lot of work" for other people.  If it is
> too much work then they won't do it and will decide
> that using usenet or something else is easier.  But what
> you and Chris are missing is that that is *their* decision,
> not yours.

I'm not telling people not to use Google Groups.  In fact, I've said 
twice now in this thread that we have to accept Google Groups postings 
as part of this list.  My point is simply that we have to take care not 
to turn this list into a list about Google Groups, one way or the other.

Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without 
helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not 
good.  Then you responded to Chris, not helping the OP, and talking 
about Google Groups instead.  That's also not good.

I have found some of the anti-GG responses off-putting, and I wish they 
would stop.  Words like "crap" aren't making anyone feel welcome.  In 
this thread, I felt like your attempts to correct those responses were 
also crossing a line.

That's why I'd personally prefer that everyone tone down the rhetoric on 
both sides of the debate.  For the most part, it will be impossible to 
get anyone to change how they access the list.  The best we can do is a 
polite suggestion that Google Groups puts some people off, and that more 
responses will likely result from using another tool.  Beyond that, it's 
just more useless yelling at each other.

>
>>> You might want to take a look at
>>>    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>>> for some ways to reduce the annoyance factor for the anti-GG
>>> clique here.
>>
>> I appreciate the work you put into that page, but those suggestions are
>> far from simple for the average newb here.  I think it's very unlikely
>> that a new poster is going to read, understand, and follow those
>> instructions.
>
> Perhaps.  But it is an option that GG users should be
> aware of.
>
>> Remember that most posters are not looking to "join the group."  They
>> need help with a problem.  They aren't going to put a lot of work into
>> anything having to do with this list.  That's just the way it is.
>
> And yet you want them to go though the subscription process
> for the email list and then deal with dozens, perhaps hundreds
> of messages from it every day?  And then figure out how to
> get off it when they're done?
>
> If they're unwilling to do a simple edit on a message before
> posting why would anyone think they'd be willing to do all
> the above?
>
> (And to pre-address the obvious potential mis-interpretation:
> I am talking about only a subset of posters.  Some *will*
> find email or usenet easier, and to repeat what I said in
> most every post on this subject: offering the option is
> fine, ignoring GG posts if you don't like them is fine.
> But making wrong or unsupported claims like GG corrupts
> whitespace (more than other software) or is harder to use
> than usenet or a mailing list, or makes people go blind
> is wrong.

To address your mis-interpretation: I'm not telling people not to use 
Google Groups.  I'm asking everyone to calm down about whether people 
use Google Groups or not.  Again, we agree: as I've said in this thread, 
many posters are not looking to "join the group", they are looking for 
help with their problem at hand.  They won't do *anything* that is 
difficult, especially where they can't see the flaws they are supposed 
to be correcting.

>
>> Google Groups is a blessing and a curse.  1) It provides a simple way
>> for people to ask questions here.  2) It causes a lot of friction with
>> many people on this list.  It won't do any good to pretend that either
>> of these things isn't true.
>>
>> But please, let's not turn this list into an "argue about Google Groups"
>> list.
>
> Please note that all my "argue about Google Groups" responses
> have been to correct some form of misinformation about GG that
> someone else posted first.

That's true, but it's still a message about Google Groups, and not about 
the OP's question.

>
>> I suggest the following:
>>
>> 1) Don't fault newcomers for using Google Groups.  Politely suggest
>> alternatives, but only if you are also helping them, or if they have
>> already gotten help.
>>
>> 2) Be careful how you rail against Google Groups.  When you call its
>> results "crap" (for example), it can sound like an insult to the poster.
>>    You mean to refer to Google Groups, but remember you are also
>> referring to the poster's words.
>>
>> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
>>    It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
>
> That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG
> crowd more than me.

Well, point 3 applies to you. "Protracted debates" include views from 
both sides.

> I would add:
>
> 4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt
> to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only
> serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed
> out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it
> bothers you too much.
>

I think that's a fine point #4, I'm not sure what other option there is 
in that case.

I'm a big believer in ignoring behavior that bothers you.  But you 
aren't ignoring Chris, and I'm not ignoring you, so clearly we both also 
believe in directly addressing behavior we don't like.  When to ignore, 
and when to act?  It's not easy to decide.

I'd like this list to be a respectful place that focuses on Python 
rather than on side issues.  This thread quickly turned into a rancorous 
debate about Google Groups rather than helping the OP with a Python 
question.  That's why I spoke up.

BTW: These discussions get fractured and difficult in email threads. 
I'm in the #python channel on freenode as nedbat if that would be a 
better way to reach an understanding.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 23:17:18 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 15:17:18 +1100
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpwL6qWnF=crjKXnUHsegPS8jq6ud-Cj7UkSAT7igxkHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without
> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not good.

The only reason I didn't directly help the OP was because the code was
misformatted and it was necessary to request that it be reposted.
Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying "Please repost your code
with correct formatting", but there wasn't much else I could have
done.

Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
if the post comes from GG?

ChrisA


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 23:34:15 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 10:04:15 +0530
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpwL6qWnF=crjKXnUHsegPS8jq6ud-Cj7UkSAT7igxkHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpwL6qWnF=crjKXnUHsegPS8jq6ud-Cj7UkSAT7igxkHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeocO8+1sMomm2YiWcLoXxTEgQ3hcN4eiGVk2M1EBOke6Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:47 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without
>> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not good.
>
> The only reason I didn't directly help the OP was because the code was
> misformatted and it was necessary to request that it be reposted.
> Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying "Please repost your code
> with correct formatting", but there wasn't much else I could have
> done.
>
> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
> if the post comes from GG?

I think Ned is being exceptionally helpful in keeping this list in order
And you are being inflammatory in the above given that Ned just said:

> I'm not telling people not to use Google Groups.  In fact, I've said twice now in
> this thread that we have to accept Google Groups postings as part of this list.
> My point is simply that we have to take care not to turn this list into a list
> about Google Groups, one way or the other.

You are of course free to filter out GG posts if you wish -- thats a
separable question.

[And I reiterate my request to check why I have been kicked off from
GG and have to use mail. As rurpy said I cant handle a mailing list
volume of this scale for too long]


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 26 08:20:29 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 08:20:29 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpwL6qWnF=crjKXnUHsegPS8jq6ud-Cj7UkSAT7igxkHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <CAPTjJmpwL6qWnF=crjKXnUHsegPS8jq6ud-Cj7UkSAT7igxkHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9haee$gdv$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/25/13 11:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:
>> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without
>> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not good.
>
> The only reason I didn't directly help the OP was because the code was
> misformatted and it was necessary to request that it be reposted.
> Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying "Please repost your code
> with correct formatting", but there wasn't much else I could have
> done.

In this case, the OP provided an error message which showed that he 
wasn't getting a SyntaxError, so we could assume that the problem lay 
elsewhere.  It depends how much work you want to put into overlooking 
the mis-formatting of the code.

>
> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
> if the post comes from GG?

If *you* don't want to respond to any GG post, that will be fine: others 
will respond.  Even better is to respond to the posts to help the OP.

>
> ChrisA
>


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 26 00:13:29 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:13:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4622.1388031906.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4622.1388031906.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0ce764ea-e2a3-4fd3-a7d2-8ee9767b5349@googlegroups.com>

On 12/25/2013 09:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>[...]
> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
> if the post comes from GG?

Do you really think that if *you* ignore Google Groups, then
Google Groups posters will get "no response at all"?  Could 
you please turn down your ego a little?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 07:41:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:41:39 +1100
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <0ce764ea-e2a3-4fd3-a7d2-8ee9767b5349@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4622.1388031906.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0ce764ea-e2a3-4fd3-a7d2-8ee9767b5349@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpW3HsZ727Eopihuvg-bWNsjcwCjAfVc5rGp+Zb1_gusw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 4:13 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 12/25/2013 09:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>[...]
>> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
>> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
>> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
>> if the post comes from GG?
>
> Do you really think that if *you* ignore Google Groups, then
> Google Groups posters will get "no response at all"?  Could
> you please turn down your ego a little?

That's not what I said, and you're still ignoring the primary thrust
of my posts. I'm done debating this with you; I'll continue to push
people toward options that don't have bugs that inflict themselves on
everyone else, and if you continue apologizing for something that
needs to be fixed, that's your business.

ChrisA


From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 26 15:04:22 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:04:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4630.1388061702.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4622.1388031906.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0ce764ea-e2a3-4fd3-a7d2-8ee9767b5349@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4630.1388061702.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <18002834-8a12-4172-8157-a71b53c06a1e@googlegroups.com>

On 12/26/2013 05:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 4:13 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 12/25/2013 09:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>[...]
>>> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google Groups
>>> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads like
>>> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response at all
>>> if the post comes from GG?
>>
>> Do you really think that if *you* ignore Google Groups, then
>> Google Groups posters will get "no response at all"?  Could
>> you please turn down your ego a little?
> 
> That's not what I said, 

On rereading, my interpretation of your statement still seems 
legitimate.  If you don't clarify, then my response can only 
be: yes, that *is* (in effect) what you said.

> and you're still ignoring the primary thrust
> of my posts. 

I wasn't sure what your "primary thrust" was, I asked you 
to remind me and you failed to respond.

If you're referring to, 
  "Why, rurpy, do you continue to support, apologize for, 
  and argue in favour of, a piece of software that is ...."

1. You are continuing to try to misdirect from, *my* primary 
thrust: that in your zeal to make people stop using GG you 
crossed a line by posting some derogatory claims about GG 
that you can not support. I am still waiting for a credible 
explanation from you about how you know that GG is corrupting 
whitespace.

2. I've addressed why I oppose trying to drive people away 
from GG many times, among others in:
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/FFAe5sJ7kQ4/SXXunRofxtEJ
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/Rxw7H4yNGh4/9txi2cB7ppMJ
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/Rxw7H4yNGh4/WRZDOzZd76oJ
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/Rxw7H4yNGh4/41hZ3Si5G0cJ
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/Rxw7H4yNGh4/jKu57BLvqIUJ
  https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/wh9MzFEHDMM/iwZKSMeRwjQJ
Those are some from 2012 (don't have time to find 2013 ones). 
Many are direct responses to you, most or all are in threads 
you posted in.  Please, instead of just ignoring what I wrote
and repeating the same charges ad infinitum, point out why 
the answers I've already given are wrong.

3. I answered you in a previous post in this thread referring 
you to my explanation of your issue in a concurrent reply to 
Ned B.  Unfortunately that previous post got stuck in the ether
somewhere and just popped out this morning (not your fault of 
course that it wasn't available till now).

4. Virtually all of my responses in the GG wars have been 
only in response to correct or point out some inaccurate 
(IMO) information posted by someone else (often you): that 
Usenet/mailing list/whatever is easy to use as GG, that 
"the community" opposes posts from GG, that the majority 
of people here don't read posts from GG, that GG is 
irredeemably "broken", the alternatives have no significant
problems, that reading GG posts make you go blind, and many 
more I can't recall.  Seldom if ever have I initiated any of 
these debates and have ignored many erroneous or inflammatory 
posts that I could (and perhaps should) have responded to.   

> I'm done debating this with you; I'll continue to push
> people toward options that don't have bugs that inflict themselves on
> everyone else, 

It is the "pushing" I object to.  I've repeatedly said 
if you want tell people about other options you think are 
better and why, I'm all for it.  But making up negative 
stuff up about GG (or anything that you personally don't 
like) should  be totally unacceptable here, and I think it 
is a shame (and sadly illustrative of the deterioration 
of this group) that you (and some others) proudly announce 
your intent to continue.

> and if you continue apologizing for something that
> needs to be fixed, that's your business.

I'm not "apologizing" for GG.  I have acknowledged the problems
their FUd quoting creates.  I have in my own small way tried 
to improve things.  You seem to think though that your opinion 
of how to deal with the problem should be the law.  Again I 
ask you to check your ego. 

Finally, I remind you that the only reason I am in this thread 
is because *you* posted some negative claims about GG that you 
can't support and aren't man enough to admit to.


From davea at davea.name  Fri Dec 27 07:31:49 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:31:49 -0500
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <18002834-8a12-4172-8157-a71b53c06a1e@googlegroups.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <l9ga9l$b8k$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4622.1388031906.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0ce764ea-e2a3-4fd3-a7d2-8ee9767b5349@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4630.1388061702.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <18002834-8a12-4172-8157-a71b53c06a1e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.7999577999395258713@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:04:22 -0800 (PST), rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/26/2013 05:41 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 4:13 PM,  <rurpy at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On 12/25/2013 09:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>>[...]
> >>> Or maybe I should have just filtered everything from Google 
Groups
> >>> into the bit bucket, because responding just creates threads 
like
> >>> this. Do you honestly think that would be better? No response 
at all
> >>> if the post comes from GG?
> >>
> >> Do you really think that if *you* ignore Google Groups, then
> >> Google Groups posters will get "no response at all"?  Could
> >> you please turn down your ego a little?
> > 
> > That's not what I said, 


> On rereading, my interpretation of your statement still seems 
> legitimate.  If you don't clarify, then my response can only 
> be: yes, that *is* (in effect) what you said.

It was and still is clear to me what Chris meant. With such a filter, 
 clearly he would be making no response at all to such a post.

-- 
DaveA



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 26 00:40:38 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:40:38 +1100
Subject: Google Groups + this list
References: <mailman.4620.1388022946.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52bbc157$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Rustom Mody wrote:

> I seem to have been kicked off something or other --
> First thought it was google groups -- then saw some mails from Steven
> describing similar 'non-reaching' problems.

I don't think you can actually be kicked off Google Groups. Isn't it open to
anyone with an account? If you have an account, can you log in? 

(I could be wrong -- I don't actually use it for various reasons which I'm
happy to share if anyone cares but aren't actually germane to the issue at
hand.)

My issues were different. I'm posting via Usenet, and my ISP piggy-backs off
some other Usenet hosting company. Occasionally they have temporary issues
with posts being broken, either permanently or (in the most recent case)
temporarily.


> Anyway for the last couple of days I'm getting mail bounces after
> about 24 hours to all my posts (via GG)

Sounds like a problem with GG, probably some temporary misconfiguration with
one of their servers which will be attended to once Google get a round
tuit.


> So trying a different route -- Does this reach?
>
> [And if it does... Merry Christmas!]

Got it, thanks!


> Heres the kind of bounce message I get (with emails crossed out)
> 
> ------------------------
> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Mail Delivery Subsystem
> <mailer-daemon AT google> wrote:
>>
>> Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:
>>
>>      comp.lang.python AT usenet.google.com

Looks like Google implements their Usenet mirror via email, instead of using
a News server. I have no idea if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but
its a thing.



-- 
Steven



From rurpy at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 26 15:11:53 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:11:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Google Groups + this list
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4621.1388031119.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025741000010000001052@gmail.com>
 <mailman.4527.1387769595.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <5a15bd65-8183-48be-8ac2-be0666fed75d@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4547.1387799314.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <049fb77d-e9ac-4cb3-9db9-d07f01340dbc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4621.1388031119.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <36679fc4-7dbc-4574-9bcd-089d82b7efc7@googlegroups.com>

On 12/25/2013 09:11 PM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/24/13 8:44 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/23/2013 04:48 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> On 12/22/13 11:52 PM, rurpy at yahoo.com wrote:
>[...]
>>> But it's a lot of work.
>> No, it not a "lot" of work (IMO and I use GG for every
>[...]
> Yes, that's a point I've also been trying to make: we're in agreement here.

Then you can understand why I was confused when you 
wrote that it *was* a lot of work? ;-)

>[...]
> I'm not telling people not to use Google Groups.  In fact, I've said 
> twice now in this thread that we have to accept Google Groups postings 
> as part of this list.  My point is simply that we have to take care not 
> to turn this list into a list about Google Groups, one way or the other.
> 
> Kevin started this thread by asking a question.  Chris responded without 
> helping the OP, and talked about Google Groups instead.  That's not 
> good.  Then you responded to Chris, not helping the OP, and talking 
> about Google Groups instead.  That's also not good.
> 
> I have found some of the anti-GG responses off-putting, and I wish they 
> would stop.  Words like "crap" aren't making anyone feel welcome.  In 
> this thread, I felt like your attempts to correct those responses were 
> also crossing a line.
> 
> That's why I'd personally prefer that everyone tone down the rhetoric on 
> both sides of the debate.  For the most part, it will be impossible to 
> get anyone to change how they access the list.  The best we can do is a 
> polite suggestion that Google Groups puts some people off, and that more 
> responses will likely result from using another tool.  Beyond that, it's 
> just more useless yelling at each other.

Yes, I agree.  And if it sounded like I was putting
you and Chris in the same bucket, I apologize.  It 
was partly because you did seem to be agreeing with 
him (see for example above and your other post) and 
partly because it is hard in dashing off a quick reply
to always distinguish between the personal "you" and
the general "you" (anti-GG people).

>[...]
>>> 3) Don't let's get into protracted internal debates about Google Groups.
>>>    It is for the moment at least, an unavoidable part of this list.
>>
>> That all sounds fine but seems to apply to the anti-GG
>> crowd more than me.
> 
> Well, point 3 applies to you. "Protracted debates" include views from 
> both sides.
> 
>> I would add:
>>
>> 4) If someone continues to post from GG with no attempt
>> to fix the quoting problem (which seem to be the only
>> serious problem with GG) and the problem's been pointed
>> out one or twice, just stop reading their posts if it
>> bothers you too much.
> 
> I think that's a fine point #4, I'm not sure what other option there is 
> in that case.
> 
> I'm a big believer in ignoring behavior that bothers you.  But you 
> aren't ignoring Chris, and I'm not ignoring you, so clearly we both also 
> believe in directly addressing behavior we don't like.  When to ignore, 
> and when to act?  It's not easy to decide.

I do think one needs to distinguish between the initiator 
of a contentious topic, and a responder, with preponderance
of any "blame" to be assigned falling on the former.  
(I'm excluding responding to obvious trolling here.)

I've said all along (in agreement with what you wrote), 
I've no problem with pointing out, factually, that there 
are some here who have a problem with posts from GG and 
informing them that there are alternatives.  

But going beyond that to make false (or unsupportable) 
claims, or denigrating someone's tool, which they may 
prefer for perfectly good reasons, with excessively strong 
and offensive language, or other "pushing" (to use Chris' 
term), should not be ignored.  Not just for the obvious 
ethical reasons but for the practical one that ignoring 
them is likely to drive people new to Python away from 
what should be a useful place of support.  (Not ignoring
them, resulting in these GG threads, also drives people 
away but I don't know how to fix that.  Hopefully the 
number is fewer.)

Thanks for making a number of reasonable and sensible 
points in this sometimes overheated discussion. 


From qh.resu01 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:22:13 2013
From: qh.resu01 at gmail.com (Kevin Peterson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 03:22:13 +0000
Subject: Deamonify my python script on Android
Message-ID: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025744000010000001052@gmail.com>

Hi, 

I want to daemonify my python script on Android device. That is, it should be automatically invoked on boot up.

Appreciate your help.

Thanks,
Kevin Peterson




From larry.martell at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 10:02:37 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 08:02:37 -0700
Subject: Deamonify my python script on Android
In-Reply-To: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025744000010000001052@gmail.com>
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025744000010000001052@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY7stYVxsAdiHY0miRL2X-FOYav95bht78V5xUsaWsibew@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:22 PM, Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I want to daemonify my python script on Android device. That is, it should be automatically invoked on boot up.
>
> Appreciate your help.


I don't know anything about Android programming, but for Linux i
followed the advice on these 2 pages to achieve this:

http://www.jejik.com/articles/2007/02/a_simple_unix_linux_daemon_in_python/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:SysVInitScript

This probably isn't directly applicable to you, but it still may help.


From ben+python at benfinney.id.au  Mon Dec 23 16:56:08 2013
From: ben+python at benfinney.id.au (Ben Finney)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:56:08 +1100
Subject: Deamonify my python script on Android
References: <abcd1234abc123ab12a0000025744000010000001052@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wfvpji64n.fsf@benfinney.id.au>

Kevin Peterson <qh.resu01 at gmail.com> writes:

> I want to daemonify my python script on Android device. That is, it
> should be automatically invoked on boot up.

Those aren't the same thing. To daemonise a program is independent of
whether the program starts automatically; it can start automatically
without detaching (e.g. the process that requests a login) it can detach
on request without starting automatically (e.g. any daemon started by
a user), etc.

If you want the program to start automatically on boot up, that's not a
python question; you want to find out about the Android boot process and
what facilities it has for starting a program on boot. But that's
independent of Python and independent of daemonising the program.

If you want to have a program become a daemon (i.e. a background
process) <URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_%28computing%29> the
?python-daemon? library is designed for this
<URL:https://pypi.python.org/pypi/python-daemon/>. But that's nothing to
do with automatic start-up, nor Android; you're on your own for those.

Good hunting!

-- 
 \      ?My interest is in the future, as I am going to spend the rest |
  `\                          of my life there.? ?Charles F. Kettering |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney



From Chandru_Rajendran at infosys.com  Mon Dec 23 01:19:04 2013
From: Chandru_Rajendran at infosys.com (Chandru Rajendran)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 06:19:04 +0000
Subject: Numpy Folder Structure
Message-ID: <F9D8DC52CB96E24D8C7AA5F8E9781E881E4467F1@BLRKECMBX23.ad.infosys.com>

Hi all,

Please help me with how we can make our folder structure similar to Numpy Folder structure , so that we can make our installer similar to the numpy. With the folder structure now I am having , if I install , it is directly installing without the folder in site packages unlike numpy.

Thanks & regards,
Chandru

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From qh.resu01 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 02:16:46 2013
From: qh.resu01 at gmail.com (Kevin Peterson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:46:46 +0530
Subject: Daemonify my python script on Android
Message-ID: <CAMZ7rGkTiikBTd1oeNSr-u+JNx_C=iQAiXRuvOGRp57+tO4vvg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I want to daemonify my python script on Android device. That is, it should
be automatically invoked on boot up.

Appreciate your help.

Thanks

KP
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From daniel.t.healy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 19:55:28 2013
From: daniel.t.healy at gmail.com (Dan Healy)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:55:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2nd Try: Trouble writing lines to file that include line feeds -
 Newbie
Message-ID: <f4f962d9-0e23-4b33-ba88-ce61afbb3418@googlegroups.com>

Overview: I'm attempting to read strings from a serial port. Each string ends with a carriage return and line feed. I want to write those strings to a file, like a log file. So, if I send P1 and the P2 on a new line, I would expect to open this file and find (line 1) P1 (line 2) P2. 

Problem: The file only contains P2. It always overwrites the first line. I can send 20 strings and the file will always contain the last string received. 

Code: 

#Import the serial module 
import serial 

#Open the serial port w/ settings 
ser=serial.Serial( 
        port="/dev/ttyUSB0", 
        baudrate=9600, 
        timeout=None) 

#Print data received on the serial port after removing the CR and LF characters 
while True: 
        rawcode=ser.readline() 
        codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w') 
        codelog.write(rawcode) 
        codelog.close() 


From daniel.t.healy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 22:09:34 2013
From: daniel.t.healy at gmail.com (Dan Healy)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:09:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2nd Try: Trouble writing lines to file that include line feeds -
 Newbie
In-Reply-To: <f4f962d9-0e23-4b33-ba88-ce61afbb3418@googlegroups.com>
References: <f4f962d9-0e23-4b33-ba88-ce61afbb3418@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <552d183d-e63a-42a5-b5e8-d5f21fed600f@googlegroups.com>

Solved. Simply change the 'w' from the file.open method to an 'a' for append

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 7:55:28 PM UTC-5, Dan Healy wrote:
> Overview: I'm attempting to read strings from a serial port. Each string ends with a carriage return and line feed. I want to write those strings to a file, like a log file. So, if I send P1 and the P2 on a new line, I would expect to open this file and find (line 1) P1 (line 2) P2. 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem: The file only contains P2. It always overwrites the first line. I can send 20 strings and the file will always contain the last string received. 
> 
> 
> 
> Code: 
> 
> 
> 
> #Import the serial module 
> 
> import serial 
> 
> 
> 
> #Open the serial port w/ settings 
> 
> ser=serial.Serial( 
> 
>         port="/dev/ttyUSB0", 
> 
>         baudrate=9600, 
> 
>         timeout=None) 
> 
> 
> 
> #Print data received on the serial port after removing the CR and LF characters 
> 
> while True: 
> 
>         rawcode=ser.readline() 
> 
>         codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w') 
> 
>         codelog.write(rawcode) 
> 
>         codelog.close()



From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Mon Dec 23 03:33:24 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 00:33:24 -0800
Subject: 2nd Try: Trouble writing lines to file that include line feeds
 - Newbie
In-Reply-To: <f4f962d9-0e23-4b33-ba88-ce61afbb3418@googlegroups.com>
References: <f4f962d9-0e23-4b33-ba88-ce61afbb3418@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B7F554.6030704@islandtraining.com>

On 12/22/2013 04:55 PM, Dan Healy wrote:
> Overview: I'm attempting to read strings from a serial port. Each string ends with a carriage return and line feed. I want to write those strings to a file, like a log file. So, if I send P1 and the P2 on a new line, I would expect to open this file and find (line 1) P1 (line 2) P2.
>
> Problem: The file only contains P2. It always overwrites the first line. I can send 20 strings and the file will always contain the last string received.
>
> Code:
>
> #Import the serial module
> import serial
>
> #Open the serial port w/ settings
> ser=serial.Serial(
>          port="/dev/ttyUSB0",
>          baudrate=9600,
>          timeout=None)
>
> #Print data received on the serial port after removing the CR and LF characters
> while True:
>          rawcode=ser.readline()
>          codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w')
>          codelog.write(rawcode)
>          codelog.close()

First, that code is quite foolish:  If you want to write multiple lines 
to a file, open the file once before the loop, looped through all your 
writes, and then closed it after the loop has exited.:

codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w')
while True:
         rawcode=ser.readline()
         codelog.write(rawcode)
         
codelog.close()


However, on the chance that you are writing this code for testing 
purposes, and you really do have a need to open a file, write something 
onto the end and then close the file, and that you are going to do this 
many times, I'll continue with this response:

    The default behavior of the "open" call is to *truncate* (i.e.,
    clear the  contents) and start writing at the beginning. The
    behavior you want is called *append*, and you get it with a 'wa' as
    the second parameter of the open call.


See http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#open for a list of 
other modes available for the open call.

Gary Herron

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From daniel.t.healy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 19:53:22 2013
From: daniel.t.healy at gmail.com (daniel.t.healy at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:53:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Trouble writing lines into file with line feeds- Python Newb
Message-ID: <54125532-84af-4013-89e3-7c99902ade5e@googlegroups.com>

Overview: I'm attempting to read strings from a serial port. Each string ends with a carriage return and line feed. I want to write those strings to a file, like a log file. So, if I send P1 and the P2 on a new line, I would expect to open this file and find (line 1) P1 (line 2) P2. 

Problem: The file only contains P2. It always overwrites the first line. I can send 20 strings and the file will always contain the last string received.

Code:

#Import the serial module
import serial

#Open the serial port w/ settings
ser=serial.Serial(
	port="/dev/ttyUSB0", 
	baudrate=9600, 
	timeout=None)

#Establish a placeholder for the variable line
line=[]

#Print data received on the serial port after removing the CR and LF characters
while True:
        rawcode=ser.readline()
        codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w')
        codelog.write(rawcode)
        codelog.close()


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Mon Dec 23 04:57:28 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 11:57:28 +0200
Subject: Trouble writing lines into file with line feeds- Python Newb
References: <54125532-84af-4013-89e3-7c99902ade5e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <qotwqivevp3.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

daniel.t.healy at gmail.com writes:
- -
> Problem: The file only contains P2. It always overwrites the first
> line. I can send 20 strings and the file will always contain the
> last string received.
- -
> while True:
>         rawcode=ser.readline()
>         codelog=open('/home/pi/avdms/codes.log','w')
- -

That's what file mode 'w' does. Use 'a'.

Also consider the logging module.

See <http://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#open> for open.

See <http://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html> for logging.


From dec135 at msn.com  Sun Dec 22 17:54:46 2013
From: dec135 at msn.com (dec135 at msn.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 14:54:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than one
 variable
Message-ID: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>

basically what I wanna do is this :

x = 4
y = 7
def switch (z,w):
***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
     c= z
     z=w
     w=c
     print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
     return w
x = switch(x,y)

 How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?

thanks in advance


From rrashkin at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 18:41:06 2013
From: rrashkin at gmail.com (Bob Rashkin)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:41:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
In-Reply-To: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> basically what I wanna do is this :
> 
> 
> 
> x = 4
> 
> y = 7
> 
> def switch (z,w):
> 
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
> 
>      c= z
> 
>      z=w
> 
>      w=c
> 
>      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
> 
>      return w
> 
> x = switch(x,y)
> 
> 
> 
>  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?
> 
> 
> 
> thanks in advance

Not sure I understand the problem but I think the answer is to put multiple values in a list and return the list.


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 19:05:37 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:05:37 -0500
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
In-Reply-To: <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
 <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xA2LkSbm=exM1QKNFtJcdwp=ooun4Zdg9KG7S5GRxt3Q@mail.gmail.com>

return a tuple:

return a, b, c

or whatever


On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Bob Rashkin <rrashkin at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> > basically what I wanna do is this :
> >
> >
> >
> > x = 4
> >
> > y = 7
> >
> > def switch (z,w):
> >
> > ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
> >
> >      c= z
> >
> >      z=w
> >
> >      w=c
> >
> >      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
> >
> >      return w
> >
> > x = switch(x,y)
> >
> >
> >
> >  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y
> WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?
> >
> >
> >
> > thanks in advance
>
> Not sure I understand the problem but I think the answer is to put
> multiple values in a list and return the list.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:37:24 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 23 Dec 2013 00:37:24 GMT
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more
 than one variable
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
 <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52b785c4$0$6599$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Unfortunately, the original post seems to have gone missing here, so 
please excuse me for breaking threading.

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> basically what I wanna do is this :
> 
> x = 4
> y = 7
> 
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>     c= z
>     z=w
>     w=c
>     print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>     return w
>
> x = switch(x,y)
> 
>
>  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable
>  y WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?


To swap two values in Python (or for that matter, three or thirty-three 
values!) just re-assign the values. Python guarantees that this will work:

x = 23
y = 42
x, y = y, x

x now has the value that y had, and y has the value that x had. There is 
no need for a temporary value, and no need for a "switch" function.

To return more than one value from a function, return a list or a tuple. 
Normally we use a tuple:


def sum_and_product(x, y):
    sum = x + y
    product = x*y
    return (sum, product)


a = 100
b = 2
s, p = sum_and_product(a, b)

Now s will have the value 102 and p will have the value 200.




-- 
Steven


From davea at davea.name  Sun Dec 22 19:57:56 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 19:57:56 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_How_can_i_return_more_than_one_value_?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?from_a_function_to_more_than=0A_one_variable?=
In-Reply-To: <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
 <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.2457846028198274480@news.gmane.org>

On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 15:41:06 -0800 (PST), Bob Rashkin 
<rrashkin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> >  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the 
variable y WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second 
time ?

You are apparently asking 3 questions. 

To exchange 2 values, use the tuple-unpack approach.

a, b = b, a

To get the equivalent of multiple return values,  return a tuple.

def myfunc (a):
     x = a*a
     y = 2+a
     return x, y

p , q = myfunc (5)

To avoid executing your print twice, call the function only once.

And a bonus one: to avoid my getting a blank message in this text 
newsgroup,  post in text,  not html.

-- 
DaveA



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:45:46 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:45:46 +1100
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
 <8e01f218-ec00-4d01-ab82-53e1ea7670e2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52b787bb$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Something funny is going on here, not only has the original gone missing,
but my reply apparently has also gone missing. Let me try again, and
apologies for if you see duplicate messages.

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:

> basically what I wanna do is this :
> 
> x = 4
> y = 7
> 
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>      c= z
>      z=w
>      w=c
>      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>      return w
> 
> x = switch(x,y)
> 
>
>  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y
>  WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?


There is no need for a function to swap two values. In Python, if you want
to swap two values (or three, or thirty-three for that matter!) just
reassign them all at once.

x = 23
y = 42
x, y = y, x


Python guarantees that after this, x will have the value that y had, and y
will have the value that x had. No need for a function!


To return two or more values from a function, use a tuple:


def sum_and_product(a, b):
    """Return the sum and product of a and b."""
    sum = a+b
    product = a*b
    return (sum, product)


s, p = sum_and_product(100, 2)


s will now have the value 102, and p the value 200.



-- 
Steven



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 22 19:48:59 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 11:48:59 +1100
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
Message-ID: <52b7887c$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Something funny is going on here, not only has the original gone missing,
but my reply apparently has also gone missing. Let me try again, and
apologies for if you see duplicate messages.

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:

> basically what I wanna do is this :
> 
> x = 4
> y = 7
> 
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>      c= z
>      z=w
>      w=c
>      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>      return w
> 
> x = switch(x,y)
> 
>
>  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y
>  WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?


There is no need for a function to swap two values. In Python, if you want
to swap two values (or three, or thirty-three for that matter!) just
reassign them all at once.

x = 23
y = 42
x, y = y, x


Python guarantees that after this, x will have the value that y had, and y
will have the value that x had. No need for a function!


To return two or more values from a function, use a tuple:


def sum_and_product(a, b):
    """Return the sum and product of a and b."""
    sum = a+b
    product = a*b
    return (sum, product)


s, p = sum_and_product(100, 2)


s will now have the value 102, and p the value 200.


-- 
Steven



From mail at simonsblog.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 04:36:56 2013
From: mail at simonsblog.co.uk (Simon Hayward)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 09:36:56 +0000
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
In-Reply-To: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1387791416.9808.62820085.131F3B01@webmail.messagingengine.com>

> basically what I wanna do is this :
> 
> x = 4
> y = 7
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>      c= z
>      z=w
>      w=c
>      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>      return w
> x = switch(x,y)
> 
>  How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y
>  WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?
> 
> thanks in advance

Using multiple assignment.

# Swap values
x, y = 4, 7
y, x = x, y

Or to keep this in a function, return a tuple and assign from that:

def switch(x, y):
    return y, x

x, y = switch(x, y)


From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Sun Dec 22 19:10:56 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:10:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more than
 one variable
In-Reply-To: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2970f228-daf5-4c01-8f01-35949aaf440f@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, December 22, 2013 4:54:46 PM UTC-6, dec... at msn.com wrote:
> basically what I wanna do is this :
> x = 4
> 
> y = 7
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>      c= z
>      z=w
>      w=c
>      print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>      return w
> x = switch(x,y)

If your intent is to swap the values of two variables (which
is really rebinding the names only) then why do you need a
function at all when you could explicitly swap the values
yourself? What gain would a function give you -- even if you
could do it?


From gary.herron at islandtraining.com  Mon Dec 23 04:58:09 2013
From: gary.herron at islandtraining.com (Gary Herron)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 01:58:09 -0800
Subject: How can i return more than one value from a function to more
 than one variable
In-Reply-To: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
References: <40ddd2cf-483f-423b-9a4d-93f6a5e77df2@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B80931.3080005@islandtraining.com>

On 12/22/2013 02:54 PM, dec135 at msn.com wrote:
> basically what I wanna do is this :
>
> x = 4
> y = 7
> def switch (z,w):
> ***this will switch z to w and vice verca***
>       c= z
>       z=w
>       w=c
>       print 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z
>       return w
> x = switch(x,y)
>
>   How am I supposed to do so I can  return also a value to the variable y WITHOUT printing 'Now x =', w, 'and y = ' , z   a second time ?
>
> thanks in advance

I don't' understand the question, but if you are just trying to exchange 
the values of x and y, this will do:

x,y = y,x


If you want a function to return several values to several variables, try:

def fn(...):
     # calculate a and b
     return a,b

p,q = fn(...)

All these comma-separated sequences are tuples, often written with 
parentheses as (x,y)=(y,x) and (p,q)=fn(...), but as here,  the 
parentheses are often not necessary.

Gary Herron




From tm at tobix.eu  Mon Dec 23 06:50:29 2013
From: tm at tobix.eu (Tobias M.)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 12:50:29 +0100
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
Message-ID: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>

Hello,

I am currently writing an event-driven client library for a network 
protocol [1] and chose to use the new asyncio module. I have no 
experience with asynchronous IO and don't understand all the concepts in 
asyncio yet. So I'm not sure if asyncio is actually the right choice .

My goal:
I want to provide an easy to use interface to the network protocol.

What I have so far:
I internally use the asyncio event loop and and the user can register 
event handler functions for specific events triggered by the network input.
Reduced to the essentials the architecture of my code looks like this:

class Client(asyncio.Protocol):

     def __init__(self, handler, server, port):
         self._handler = handler
         self._server = server
         self._port = port

     def run(self):
         loop = asyncio.get_event_loop()
         task = asyncio.Task(loop.create_connection(self, server, port))
         loop.run_until_complete(task)
         loop.run_forever()

     def data_received(self, data):
         # read data and call the appropriate handler methods on 
self._handler
         (..)

The user initializes a Client object, passing a handler to the 
constructor. The handler is an instance of a class that contains event 
handler methods implemented by the user. (The expected interface of a 
handler is defined in an abstract base class.)
Afterwards the user calls run() on the client to start processing.

Problem:
So far this works, but only for applications that solely react to events 
from the network. Now I want to be able to use this library for network 
communication in interactive applications (command line or GUI), too. In 
this case it needs to be able to respond to user input, which must be 
somehow incorporated in the event loop. GUI libraries like PyQt even 
provide their own event loop.

Questions:
So how do I integrate those aspects in my library?
Is asyncio the right choice?
Or does my whole approach goes in the wrong direction?

I would greatly appreciate any help and suggestions,

Tobias

PS:
I posted this question to the tutor mailing list [2] but looks like 
python-list is a better place for it.

[1] The network protocol is IRC (Internet Relay Chat) but I think that 
does not really matter here.
[2] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2013-December/099089.html


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 11:47:16 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:47:16 +1100
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
In-Reply-To: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
References: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Tobias M. <tm at tobix.eu> wrote:
> I am currently writing an event-driven client library for a network protocol
> [1] and chose to use the new asyncio module. I have no experience with
> asynchronous IO and don't understand all the concepts in asyncio yet. So I'm
> not sure if asyncio is actually the right choice .

As was acknowledged on -tutor, asyncio is extremely new. I don't know
if anyone's yet used it for GUI handling, or even if the module was
intended for that.

You may be able to wrap your GUI code up so it fits inside asyncio.
Rather than run a simple event loop, you could have your own loop that
does some kind of checking: PyGTK has functions for peeking at events
and doing just one iteration of the main loop, so you could pump all
events with something like this:

while gtk.events_pending(): gtk.main_iteration()

No doubt other toolkits have something similar.

Alternatively, you could run two threads: one for your GUI, and
another one for your asyncio. How easy and clean that would be is hard
to say without trying it; it could work out beautifully for your code,
or it could be horribly clunky.

This might be your big contribution to Python for the year: a nice,
easy, working example of using asyncio with a GUI toolkit! You might
be the first to look for this, but you won't be the last.

ChrisA


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 23 14:59:22 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 14:59:22 -0500
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
 <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9a4mm$484$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/23/2013 11:47 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 10:50 PM, Tobias M. <tm at tobix.eu> wrote:
>> I am currently writing an event-driven client library for a network protocol
>> [1] and chose to use the new asyncio module. I have no experience with
>> asynchronous IO and don't understand all the concepts in asyncio yet. So I'm
>> not sure if asyncio is actually the right choice .
>
> As was acknowledged on -tutor, asyncio is extremely new. I don't know
> if anyone's yet used it for GUI handling, or even if the module was
> intended for that.

Asyncio is aimed, as the name says, at non-blocking io, but allows 
non-blocking on other tasks. It replaces asyncore, now deprecated (but 
not removed). Developers of Twisted, Tornado, and other async frameworks 
had input. It was partly inspired, I think, by C#'s await, which allows 
async code to look much like normal blocking code (Guido does not like 
writing callbacks ;-). The default event loop is intended to be 
replaceable by other event loops that expose the same interface.

I know that Twisted can work with GUI loops but I do not know the 
details.  I suspect that the same methods can and will be make to work 
with the asyncio loop, or that the Twisted loop will get an adaptor so 
it can replace the asyncio default loop.

What would be easiest for user-developers would be if someone were able 
to wrap a gui loop in a way to give it the needed interface, so the gui 
loop itself replaced and became the asyncio loop.

> You may be able to wrap your GUI code up so it fits inside asyncio.
> Rather than run a simple event loop, you could have your own loop that
> does some kind of checking: PyGTK has functions for peeking at events
> and doing just one iteration of the main loop, so you could pump all
> events with something like this:
>
> while gtk.events_pending(): gtk.main_iteration()
>
> No doubt other toolkits have something similar.

I think tk(inter) has 'run pending events' or something.

> Alternatively, you could run two threads: one for your GUI, and
> another one for your asyncio. How easy and clean that would be is hard
> to say without trying it; it could work out beautifully for your code,
> or it could be horribly clunky.
>
> This might be your big contribution to Python for the year: a nice,
> easy, working example of using asyncio with a GUI toolkit!

Such would definitely be welcome.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From tm at tobix.eu  Tue Dec 24 10:41:53 2013
From: tm at tobix.eu (Tobias M.)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 16:41:53 +0100
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
In-Reply-To: <l9a4mm$484$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
 <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l9a4mm$484$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52B9AB41.30702@tobix.eu>

Thanks for your answers! I didn't have the time to test any of your 
suggestions so far but they already gave me something to think about. At 
least now I'm much more clearer on what I am actually looking for.

On 23.12.2013 20:59, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
> What would be easiest for user-developers would be if someone were 
> able to wrap a gui loop in a way to give it the needed interface, so 
> the gui loop itself replaced and became the asyncio loop.
>
That's a good idea, maybe I will try this. On the other hand this means that
for every gui toolkit there must be a separate wrapper. I hoped this can 
be avoided.

On 23.12.2013 17:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
> You may be able to wrap your GUI code up so it fits inside asyncio.
> Rather than run a simple event loop, you could have your own loop that
> does some kind of checking: PyGTK has functions for peeking at events
> and doing just one iteration of the main loop, so you could pump all
> events with something like this:
>
> while gtk.events_pending(): gtk.main_iteration()
>
> No doubt other toolkits have something similar.
On 23.12.2013 20:59, Terry Reedy wrote:
> I think tk(inter) has 'run pending events' or something.
I didn't know functions like this exist in gui toolkits. Am I right in 
thinking that using these functions you don't have to use the built-in 
event loop. Instead you can write your own loop and just call 'run 
pending events' continuously?

I think what I actually want is the other way around. I want my library 
to be easy to use in existing gui applications that already have their 
own main loop. Their core should not need to be adapted for this. So I 
think I should provide a function like 'run pending events' in my api. 
For example in a PyQt application this could be called periodically by 
using a QTimer.

So I would use asyncio only if my library is used non-interactively with 
it's internal event loop.

Well, maybe I could reuse asyncio's transports and protocols in both 
situations. I don't know if they depend on asyncio's event loop.

Note: I didn't concern myself with all this stuff yet. Just wrote down 
what came to my mind. If there are any errors in my reasoning please 
correct me. I will try some approaches after the christmas holidays and 
get back to you then...

Thanks and regards,

Tobias


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 12:30:02 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 04:30:02 +1100
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
In-Reply-To: <52B9AB41.30702@tobix.eu>
References: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
 <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l9a4mm$484$1@ger.gmane.org> <52B9AB41.30702@tobix.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr6i5beiM0ku4NEjFjBA6JVfp9pwhQ4eTkeVHiObmfOKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Tobias M. <tm at tobix.eu> wrote:
> On 23.12.2013 17:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> while gtk.events_pending(): gtk.main_iteration()
>
> On 23.12.2013 20:59, Terry Reedy wrote:
>>
>> I think tk(inter) has 'run pending events' or something.
>
> I didn't know functions like this exist in gui toolkits. Am I right in
> thinking that using these functions you don't have to use the built-in event
> loop. Instead you can write your own loop and just call 'run pending events'
> continuously?

That's correct. And if you do the blocking version of the call (not
shown above), then it's exactly what the main loop function is doing.

> I think what I actually want is the other way around. I want my library to
> be easy to use in existing gui applications that already have their own main
> loop. Their core should not need to be adapted for this. So I think I should
> provide a function like 'run pending events' in my api. For example in a
> PyQt application this could be called periodically by using a QTimer.

That would work if you're okay with, effectively, polling for events.
Might have a lot of cost in terms of performance (checking frequently)
or response time (checking infrequently). I'd like to see the
two-thread form explored; that effectively lets you block on two
different events. You still get the advantage of asyncio (you don't
need millions of threads - there's exactly two, one for GUI and one
for everything else), but you're forced to think about your GUI first
and give it the main thread. (At least, you are with several toolkits,
which seem to insist on being used on the main thread only. You might
be able to spin that off to another thread.)

ChrisA


From auriocus at gmx.de  Wed Dec 25 08:52:45 2013
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:52:45 +0100
Subject: Using asyncio in event-driven network library
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4593.1387899733.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <52B82385.9080604@tobix.eu>
 <CAPTjJmrJO3eO8pPsDSmyA6QHBJfMa0CFs-aGm5zHRBrRTutcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <l9a4mm$484$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4593.1387899733.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l9envf$vd6$1@dont-email.me>

Am 24.12.13 16:41, schrieb Tobias M.:
> On 23.12.2013 20:59, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> What would be easiest for user-developers would be if someone were
>> able to wrap a gui loop in a way to give it the needed interface, so
>> the gui loop itself replaced and became the asyncio loop.
>>
> That's a good idea, maybe I will try this. On the other hand this means
> that for every gui toolkit there must be a separate wrapper. I hoped this can
> be avoided.

To be done properly, it needs to be adapted for every toolkit. But the 
good news is, that it has already been achieved: IPython is able to 
integrate the readline library into all major GUI toolkits (%gui). Maybe 
you can rip off the code from there.

> On 23.12.2013 17:47, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> while gtk.events_pending(): gtk.main_iteration()
>>
>> No doubt other toolkits have something similar.
> On 23.12.2013 20:59, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> I think tk(inter) has 'run pending events' or something.

In Tk(inter) it is "update"

> I didn't know functions like this exist in gui toolkits. Am I right in
> thinking that using these functions you don't have to use the built-in
> event loop. Instead you can write your own loop and just call 'run
> pending events' continuously?

As Chris already explained, you then lose the advantages of the 
asynchronous operation. The reason behind the toolkits insisting on 
their main loop being run is, that they can wait for an event in a 
blocking way. Typically, under Linux, they call select() and on Windows 
WaitForMultipleObjects(), which blocks (sleeps) until an event arrives. 
Now to integrate your event source, you need to add it to this single 
blocking call.

Specifically, in the case of Tcl/Tk: The event loop is intrinsically 
able to wait for asynchronous IO from sockets, pipes, or serial lines to 
implement "fileevent". However, this is probably not useful since Python 
doesn't open files through Tcl's VFS layer. The easiest way is to run 
another thread, which waits in a blocking way, and to raise an event in 
the main thread. This is done from the C side by Tcl_ThreadQueueEvent() 
and Tcl_ThreadAlert() to wake up the event loop, or from the Tcl script 
level by the Threads package and sending a message to the main thread. 
Unfortunately this message queue stuff is quite complicated (it's 
described on the notifier man page 
http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl/TclLib/Notifier.htm ). Further complication 
might come from the fact that some Linux distributions still ship with a 
Tcl that is not threads enabled. When I needed to add an unrelated event 
source, namely the events from GPIB devices, I simply used 
Tcl_AsyncProc() to do it, but I'm not sure whether this leads to race 
conditions.

	Christian


From jeff at jeffljames.com  Mon Dec 23 08:47:29 2013
From: jeff at jeffljames.com (Jeff James)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 06:47:29 -0700
Subject: urllib and authentication script integration
Message-ID: <CA+pMb3vQ2efAH5E24cEuJz5905E+0mjVc3Qy3AEe13KDcz7x_g@mail.gmail.com>

I have some simple code I would like to share with someone that can assist
me in integrating authentication script into.  I'm sure it's an easy answer
for any of you.  I am still researching, but on this particular project,
time is of the essence and this is the only missing piece of the puzzle for
the completion of this script.  I know all of you are busy, but if anyone
has some time for me to send them what I have, I'd rather not share it on
the public forum.   Thanks
-------------- next part --------------
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From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 11:27:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 03:27:34 +1100
Subject: urllib and authentication script integration
In-Reply-To: <CA+pMb3vQ2efAH5E24cEuJz5905E+0mjVc3Qy3AEe13KDcz7x_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+pMb3vQ2efAH5E24cEuJz5905E+0mjVc3Qy3AEe13KDcz7x_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpaDpFSPEVrLLGJCvtC41F7o8V4eHJkBj+sTWZNjx6-Aw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:47 AM, Jeff James <jeff at jeffljames.com> wrote:
> I have some simple code I would like to share with someone that can assist
> me in integrating authentication script into.  I'm sure it's an easy answer
> for any of you.  I am still researching, but on this particular project,
> time is of the essence and this is the only missing piece of the puzzle for
> the completion of this script.  I know all of you are busy, but if anyone
> has some time for me to send them what I have, I'd rather not share it on
> the public forum.   Thanks

A little more information would be helpful. I gather from your subject
line that you're using urllib; that's a start. What version of Python,
and what platform(s)? What sort of authentication are you trying to
do? Can you cut down the code in question until it's no longer
sensitive (that is, so it's safe to post in public), so we can see
what it needs to do?

ChrisA


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 19:30:35 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:30:35 -0800
Subject: How to check the date validity?
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I'm working on the python script which reads the data from the csv file.
In this file I have 3 different kind of fields: one consist of the
sole date, one - sole time and one - datetime. The time includes
milliseconds, i.e. "12:55:55.705"
All fields of the file including those 3 I am reading as the string.
All those strings after validating will go into mySQL table.

Now, it looks that the python way of validating the date/time of the
string is to call strptime(). However looking at the docs and trying
to use the function I didn't find a way to check for the milliseconds.
Now the dates can be formatted differently I think according to the
locale under which the csv is generated.

So, my question is: since there is a simple way of inserting
preformatted string into the datetime field of mySQL, how do I
validate the date string?
I don't want to convert that string to datetime object, just want to
check if all those types of dates are good dates and does not contain
garbage.

I tried to do an RE, but its static validation and so will not work in
all cases.

Thank you for any hints.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 19:39:24 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:39:24 +1100
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq_2d5LXKcEEc_85-Wjfh1=q0+uBS7=0YHkQ5dH6ubM=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So, my question is: since there is a simple way of inserting
> preformatted string into the datetime field of mySQL, how do I
> validate the date string?

Well, the easiest way would be to simply attempt the SQL query. If it
comes back with an error, the date wasn't valid. To protect a
transaction against being broken by an error, you can use a SAVEPOINT
- check the database docs. (I've never actually used savepoints in
MySQL, only PostgreSQL, so things may be a bit different. Check the
docs.)

ChrisA


From nulla.epistola at web.de  Wed Dec 25 14:03:22 2013
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 20:03:22 +0100
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq_2d5LXKcEEc_85-Wjfh1=q0+uBS7=0YHkQ5dH6ubM=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq_2d5LXKcEEc_85-Wjfh1=q0+uBS7=0YHkQ5dH6ubM=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9fa5f$fu0$1@ger.gmane.org>

Am 24.12.2013 01:39, schrieb Chris Angelico:
> On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Igor Korot<ikorot01 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> So, my question is: since there is a simple way of inserting
>> preformatted string into the datetime field of mySQL, how do I
>> validate the date string?
>
> Well, the easiest way would be to simply attempt the SQL query. If it
> comes back with an error, the date wasn't valid. To protect a
> transaction against being broken by an error, you can use a SAVEPOINT
> - check the database docs. (I've never actually used savepoints in
> MySQL, only PostgreSQL, so things may be a bit different. Check the
> docs.)
>

MySQL used to accept wrong date and datetime formats without error 
messages. Garbage in the database, because validation was (is?) 
considered the job of "the application". Possibly that has changed, but 
I'd look into the docs. It isn't PostgreSQL.

Greetings
Sibylle





From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 17:03:31 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 09:03:31 +1100
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <l9fa5f$fu0$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmq_2d5LXKcEEc_85-Wjfh1=q0+uBS7=0YHkQ5dH6ubM=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <l9fa5f$fu0$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmontgCUrW1WsosNcfiNSD2Suod9VQgAm=_G-6U-ViESWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
> MySQL used to accept wrong date and datetime formats without error messages.
> Garbage in the database, because validation was (is?) considered the job of
> "the application". Possibly that has changed, but I'd look into the docs. It
> isn't PostgreSQL.

Nor is it DB2, which is where I grew up, databases-wise. Yes, check
what MySQL will do. I'd forgotten that, or more likely suppressed it
from my mind.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 19:42:53 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:42:53 +0000
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9ala3$i3u$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 24/12/2013 00:30, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> I'm working on the python script which reads the data from the csv file.
> In this file I have 3 different kind of fields: one consist of the
> sole date, one - sole time and one - datetime. The time includes
> milliseconds, i.e. "12:55:55.705"
> All fields of the file including those 3 I am reading as the string.
> All those strings after validating will go into mySQL table.
>
> Now, it looks that the python way of validating the date/time of the
> string is to call strptime(). However looking at the docs and trying
> to use the function I didn't find a way to check for the milliseconds.
> Now the dates can be formatted differently I think according to the
> locale under which the csv is generated.
>
> So, my question is: since there is a simple way of inserting
> preformatted string into the datetime field of mySQL, how do I
> validate the date string?
> I don't want to convert that string to datetime object, just want to
> check if all those types of dates are good dates and does not contain
> garbage.
>
> I tried to do an RE, but its static validation and so will not work in
> all cases.
>
> Thank you for any hints.
>

You actually need the %f format code for milliseconds, not microseconds. 
  Note 5 from 
http://docs.python.org/3/library/datetime.html#strftime-and-strptime-behavior 
"When used with the strptime() method, the %f directive accepts from one 
to six digits and zero pads on the right. %f is an extension to the set 
of format characters in the C standard (but implemented separately in 
datetime objects, and therefore always available)"

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 23 21:39:55 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 19:39:55 -0700
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1h1QknPoR+_sA=XtDKm0v1TONSmu1QgbfsWpxi8=h=tKg@mail.gmail.com>

> In this file I have 3 different kind of fields: one consist of the
> sole date, one - sole time and one - datetime. The time includes
> milliseconds, i.e. "12:55:55.705"
> All fields of the file including those 3 I am reading as the string.
> All those strings after validating will go into mySQL table.

> I tried to do an RE, but its static validation and so will not work in
> all cases.

Not sure what you mean by static validation.  Would this not work?
import re
if re.search(r"\d{1,2}:\d{2}:\d{2}(.\d{1,3})?", "12:55:55.705"):
    # It's a time


From andipersti at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 01:19:10 2013
From: andipersti at gmail.com (Andreas Perstinger)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 07:19:10 +0100
Subject: How to check the date validity?
In-Reply-To: <CANy1k1h1QknPoR+_sA=XtDKm0v1TONSmu1QgbfsWpxi8=h=tKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTxf1te0s4fmaXfP1wcCQ8esxrfyx3TN-JKizrMTyL-Lsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANy1k1h1QknPoR+_sA=XtDKm0v1TONSmu1QgbfsWpxi8=h=tKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20131224071910.04173fea@Hof>

Jason Friedman <jsf80238 at gmail.com> wrote:
>Would this not work?
>import re
>if re.search(r"\d{1,2}:\d{2}:\d{2}(.\d{1,3})?", "12:55:55.705"):
>    # It's a time

No, because this regexp also matches stuff like "99:99:99.999".
Checking for the number of digits is not enough, because not all
combinations of two digits are valid hours, minutes or seconds.

Bye, Andreas


From gregor at ediwo.com  Tue Dec 24 05:14:11 2013
From: gregor at ediwo.com (gregor)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:14:11 +0100
Subject: How to check the date validity?
References: <mailman.4578.1387845038.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20131224111411.7089cda6@florenz>

Am Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:30:35 -0800
schrieb Igor Korot <ikorot01 at gmail.com>:

> 
> Now, it looks that the python way of validating the date/time of the
> string is to call strptime(). However looking at the docs and trying
> to use the function I didn't find a way to check for the milliseconds.
> Now the dates can be formatted differently I think according to the
> locale under which the csv is generated.

you can also use an validator package like formencode:

http://www.formencode.org/en/latest/Validator.html

It has an TimeConverter but it does not understand milliseconds either.
But it should be trivial to implement it based on TimeConverter.

Using formencode the validation / conversion is seperated and therefore reusable.
You also get nice human readable validation messages in different languages.
It supports also Schemas to validate complete records.

--
Greg



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 23 19:32:31 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
Message-ID: <l9akml$bbe$1@ger.gmane.org>

Maybe of interest to some of you 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From tim at akwebsoft.com  Mon Dec 23 21:32:58 2013
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2013 17:32:58 -0900
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <l9akml$bbe$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l9akml$bbe$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20131224023258.GT430@mail.akwebsoft.com>

<OT>
* Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> [131223 15:39]:
> Maybe of interest to some of you 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
  I note the following
  """
  "Dr Alan Turing was an exceptional man with a brilliant mind," said
  Mr Grayling.

  He said the research Turing carried out during the war at
  Bletchley Park undoubtedly shortened the conflict and saved
  thousands of lives.
  """

  From my research - general (and later president) Eisenhower seemed
  to think that Project Ultra save millions (not thousands) of
  lives, shortened and maybe won the War.
  - Never forget. 
</OT>
-- 
Tim 
tim at tee jay forty nine dot com or akwebsoft dot com
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From steve at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 24 00:07:37 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 24 Dec 2013 05:07:37 GMT
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Maybe of interest to some of you
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

While I'm happy for Alan Turing, may he rest in peace, I think the 
thousands of other homosexuals who have been prosecuted for something 
which shouldn't be a crime in the first place might be a bit peeved that 
he is singled out for a pardon.

Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating 
Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.



-- 
Steven


From tim at akwebsoft.com  Tue Dec 24 15:51:05 2013
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:51:05 -0900
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20131224205105.GG41838@mail.akwebsoft.com>

* Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> [131224 07:05]:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > Maybe of interest to some of you
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
> 
> While I'm happy for Alan Turing, may he rest in peace, I think the 
> thousands of other homosexuals who have been prosecuted for something 
> which shouldn't be a crime in the first place might be a bit peeved that 
> he is singled out for a pardon.
 
  The LGBTs that I know are happy to hear about it...

> Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating 
> Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.
  
  :) Yeah!

-- 
Tim 
tim at tee jay forty nine dot com or akwebsoft dot com
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 24 19:57:08 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:57:08 +1100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4604.1387918274.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Tim Johnson wrote:

> * Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> [131224 07:05]:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> 
>> > Maybe of interest to some of you
>> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
>> 
>> While I'm happy for Alan Turing, may he rest in peace, I think the
>> thousands of other homosexuals who have been prosecuted for something
>> which shouldn't be a crime in the first place might be a bit peeved that
>> he is singled out for a pardon.
>  
>   The LGBTs that I know are happy to hear about it...

How many of them have been prosecuted themselves? If they have been, did
they get pardoned as well?

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not objecting to Turing being pardoned. I'm
suggesting that there are probably thousands of people whose lives were
equally ruined, and they haven't been pardoned. I'm sure that Turing wasn't
the only person who was forced into taking hormone "therapy", he probably
wasn't the only person driven to suicide, and I know that he wasn't the
only one who lost his job and career because of the hateful laws.

Turing's prosecution was an especially spiteful example, given his role in
the war effort, but many others suffered equally. Some may even be alive
today. Where is their royal pardon?



-- 
Steven



From tim at akwebsoft.com  Wed Dec 25 11:50:36 2013
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 07:50:36 -0900
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4604.1387918274.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <20131225165036.GK41838@mail.akwebsoft.com>

* Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> [131224 16:19]:
> Tim Johnson wrote:
> 
> > * Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> [131224 07:05]:
> >> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Maybe of interest to some of you
> >> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
> >> 
> >> While I'm happy for Alan Turing, may he rest in peace, I think the
> >> thousands of other homosexuals who have been prosecuted for something
> >> which shouldn't be a crime in the first place might be a bit peeved that
> >> he is singled out for a pardon.
> >  
> >   The LGBTs that I know are happy to hear about it...
> 
> How many of them have been prosecuted themselves? If they have been, did
> they get pardoned as well?
> 
> In case it wasn't obvious, I'm not objecting to Turing being pardoned. I'm
> suggesting that there are probably thousands of people whose lives were
> equally ruined, and they haven't been pardoned. I'm sure that Turing wasn't
> the only person who was forced into taking hormone "therapy", he probably
> wasn't the only person driven to suicide, and I know that he wasn't the
> only one who lost his job and career because of the hateful laws.
> 
> Turing's prosecution was an especially spiteful example, given his role in
> the war effort, but many others suffered equally. Some may even be alive
> today. Where is their royal pardon?

  I'm not sure if you have a cause or if you want an argument.
  You'll get none from me. I - like many others, and perhaps you as
  well - carry the scars of man's inhumanity to man. Justice for
  that has its venue and it isn't on this ML.

  Go find your cause and its venue. I'm done with this.
-- 
Tim 
tim at tee jay forty nine dot com or akwebsoft dot com
http://www.akwebsoft.com, http://www.tj49.com


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Wed Dec 25 18:05:58 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 10:05:58 +1100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4604.1387918274.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4615.1388000799.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52bb64d7$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Tim Johnson wrote:

> I'm not sure if you have a cause or if you want an argument.

I thought we were having a conversation.

Not every exchange of messages on the internet is best understood as a
dispute between opposing views. Apologies if you thought I was arguing with
you. I thought I was just clarifying my position to avoid
misunderstandings. How ironic that I apparently was doing the opposite :(


-- 
Steven



From roy at panix.com  Wed Dec 25 19:20:25 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:20:25 -0500
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4604.1387918274.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4615.1388000799.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52bb64d7$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-5788E2.19202525122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52bb64d7$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Tim Johnson wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure if you have a cause or if you want an argument.
> 
> I thought we were having a conversation.
> 
> Not every exchange of messages on the internet is best understood as a
> dispute between opposing views.

Is too!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 19:32:35 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 11:32:35 +1100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <roy-5788E2.19202525122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4604.1387918274.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52ba2d65$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4615.1388000799.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52bb64d7$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <roy-5788E2.19202525122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpkQhkeefK1M60PjPcuk1LB+yPg1add0yUU-zj2D57thg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 11:20 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <52bb64d7$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
>  Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Tim Johnson wrote:
>>
>> > I'm not sure if you have a cause or if you want an argument.
>>
>> I thought we were having a conversation.
>>
>> Not every exchange of messages on the internet is best understood as a
>> dispute between opposing views.
>
> Is too!

I didn't come here for a parameter!

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 27 12:34:01 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 17:34:01 +0000
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 24/12/2013 05:07, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 00:32:31 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> Maybe of interest to some of you
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315
>
> While I'm happy for Alan Turing, may he rest in peace, I think the
> thousands of other homosexuals who have been prosecuted for something
> which shouldn't be a crime in the first place might be a bit peeved that
> he is singled out for a pardon.
>
> Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating
> Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.
>

Any particular reason for the restriction to Russian Embassy?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 15:30:34 2013
From: timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com (Tim Delaney)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 07:30:34 +1100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAN8CLgkexqTHo9jt6vtdGOYgvLPPmikUZtzXB0UsGZSuF-PW_A@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 December 2013 04:34, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>> Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating
>> Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.
>>
>>
> Any particular reason for the restriction to Russian Embassy?


I suspect it's in reference to the difficulties homosexuals are likely to
face when attending or competing in the 2014 Winter Olympic and Paralympic
Games at Sochi. Adam Hills in particular has had a real go about it on his
UK show "The Last Leg" where he decided to turn Vladimir Putin into a
homosexual icon (search "last leg sochi" without the quotes).

Tim Delaney
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From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 27 23:16:11 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 28 Dec 2013 04:16:11 GMT
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4678.1388176238.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52be508b$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 07:30:34 +1100, Tim Delaney wrote:

> On 28 December 2013 04:34, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>> Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating
>>> Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.
>>>
>>>
>> Any particular reason for the restriction to Russian Embassy?
> 
> 
> I suspect it's in reference to the difficulties homosexuals are likely
> to face when attending or competing in the 2014 Winter Olympic and
> Paralympic Games at Sochi.

I don't care about the Olympians. Their presence in Russia is voluntary, 
and so long as they keep it in their pants for a few weeks (or at least 
don't get caught) they get to go home again a few weeks later. Have a 
thought for those who don't get to go home again. I'm talking about the 
situation in Russia, where the government is engaging in 1930s-style 
scape-goating and oppression of homosexuals. They haven't quite reached 
the level of Kristallnacht or concentration camps, but the rhetoric and 
laws coming out of the Kremlin are just like that coming out of the 
Reichstag in the thirties.



-- 
Steven


From timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 01:13:54 2013
From: timothy.c.delaney at gmail.com (Tim Delaney)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 17:13:54 +1100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <52be508b$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4678.1388176238.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52be508b$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAN8CLgnvPBVkNNJc2b0HRHk1exSQf8k9r+SRUAEB7oVpt3StCA@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 December 2013 15:16, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:

> I don't care about the Olympians. Their presence in Russia is voluntary,
> and so long as they keep it in their pants for a few weeks (or at least
> don't get caught) they get to go home again a few weeks later. Have a
> thought for those who don't get to go home again. I'm talking about the
> situation in Russia, where the government is engaging in 1930s-style
> scape-goating and oppression of homosexuals. They haven't quite reached
> the level of Kristallnacht or concentration camps, but the rhetoric and
> laws coming out of the Kremlin are just like that coming out of the
> Reichstag in the thirties.


You are of course correct - I was still groggy from waking up when I
replied, and focused on the element that I had been most exposed to.

Tim Delaney
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From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 28 03:05:27 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 08:05:27 +0000
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
In-Reply-To: <52be508b$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4579.1387845170.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52b91699$0$11089$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <l9kdm2$2ka$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4678.1388176238.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52be508b$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l9m0n1$4u9$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 28/12/2013 04:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Dec 2013 07:30:34 +1100, Tim Delaney wrote:
>
>> On 28 December 2013 04:34, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Personally, I think that people ought to throw a party celebrating
>>>> Turing's rehabilitation, and do it right outside the Russian Embassy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Any particular reason for the restriction to Russian Embassy?
>>
>>
>> I suspect it's in reference to the difficulties homosexuals are likely
>> to face when attending or competing in the 2014 Winter Olympic and
>> Paralympic Games at Sochi.
>
> I don't care about the Olympians. Their presence in Russia is voluntary,
> and so long as they keep it in their pants for a few weeks (or at least
> don't get caught) they get to go home again a few weeks later. Have a
> thought for those who don't get to go home again. I'm talking about the
> situation in Russia, where the government is engaging in 1930s-style
> scape-goating and oppression of homosexuals. They haven't quite reached
> the level of Kristallnacht or concentration camps, but the rhetoric and
> laws coming out of the Kremlin are just like that coming out of the
> Reichstag in the thirties.
>

The moral of the story is clear.  Stay well clear of Russia if you're 
gay.  Head to some gay friendly nation, such as Uganda or for that 
matter the vast majority of African states.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec 24 04:15:14 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:15:14 +0100
Subject: [OT]Royal pardon for codebreaker Turing
References: <l9akml$bbe$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9bjaa$7ht$1@ger.gmane.org>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Maybe of interest to some of you
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25495315

I think they got mixed up who'd have to pardon whom.




From brecht at mos6581.org  Tue Dec 24 06:57:47 2013
From: brecht at mos6581.org (Brecht Machiels)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:57:47 +0100
Subject: discover contents of a namespace package
Message-ID: <20131224125747.874732825f2986931ca9ebfc@mos6581.org>

Hello,

I'm trying to use namespace packages (as described by PEP 420) to manage optional components of my Python package.

I would like to discover which optional components are installed. Unfortunately, I have not found a straightforward way to do this. For regular packages, pkgutil.walk_packages() does this, but this doesn't work for namespace packages. Is there a way to discover the installed contents of a namespace package without manually reading the filesystem?

Is there a way to do this using namespace packages created using pkgutil or pkg_resources?

Thanks
-- 
Brecht Machiels



From vanommen.robert at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 11:07:31 2013
From: vanommen.robert at gmail.com (vanommen.robert at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 08:07:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
Message-ID: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>

Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python program. (on a raspberri Pi)

I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.


Lets say i want something like this. 

x = 1
while x <> 10
	var x = x
	x = x + 1

The results must be:

var1 = 1
var2 = 2

enz. until var9 = 9

How do i program this in python?


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 11:20:46 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 11:20:46 -0500
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+w=Yno69CtCKwPyZ9n=uu_wrAA5nPPsqdWsLJ1gJ67aUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 11:07 AM, <vanommen.robert at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python program.
> (on a raspberri Pi)
>
> I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
>
>
> Lets say i want something like this.
>
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
>         var x = x
>         x = x + 1
>
> The results must be:
>
> var1 = 1
> var2 = 2
>
> enz. until var9 = 9
>
> How do i program this in python?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

You might want to go to python.org and check out the documentation.  I
don't really understand what you are trying to do.  The var1, var2 stuff
doesn't make sense

In python you can loop like this:

for x in range(10):
  print x

This will print the numbers from 0 to 9.

But your best bet is to find a brief tutorial to get started.



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From jeanmichel at sequans.com  Tue Dec 24 11:23:43 2013
From: jeanmichel at sequans.com (Jean-Michel Pichavant)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:23:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1499285940.2127560.1387902223821.JavaMail.root@sequans.com>

----- Original Message -----
> Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python
> program. (on a raspberri Pi)
> 
> I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
> 
> 
> Lets say i want something like this.
> 
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
> 	var x = x
> 	x = x + 1
> 
> The results must be:
> 
> var1 = 1
> var2 = 2
> 
> enz. until var9 = 9
> 
> How do i program this in python?

Short story, cause it's almost xmas eve :D:

python 2.5:

var = {}
for i in range(10):
  var[i] = i

print var[1]
print var[2]
print var

var here is a dictionary. I suggest that you read through the python tutorial :)

JM


-- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 

The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

From tm at tobix.eu  Tue Dec 24 11:24:01 2013
From: tm at tobix.eu (Tobias M.)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:24:01 +0100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B9B521.2040402@tobix.eu>

On 24.12.2013 17:07, vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python program. (on a raspberri Pi)
>
> I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
>
>
> Lets say i want something like this.
>
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
> 	var x = x
> 	x = x + 1
>
> The results must be:
>
> var1 = 1
> var2 = 2
>
> enz. until var9 = 9
>
> How do i program this in python?
You could do:

x = 1
while x < 10:
     print(x)
     x += 1

But that would be very "unpythonic".
Instead I would use a for loop and the range() function:

for x in range(1,10):
     print(x)

This is really short and readable.

I recommend reading the python tutorial to understand the basics:
http://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/




From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Dec 24 11:29:45 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 17:29:45 +0100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9ccou$iha$1@ger.gmane.org>

vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:

> Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python program.
> (on a raspberri Pi)
> 
> I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
> 
> 
> Lets say i want something like this.
> 
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
> var x = x
> x = x + 1
> 
> The results must be:
> 
> var1 = 1
> var2 = 2
> 
> enz. until var9 = 9
> 
> How do i program this in python?

You are trying to generate a variable name programatically. While this is 
possible in Python

>>> x = 1
>>> while x != 10:
...     exec("var{} = x".format(x))
...     x = x + 1
... 
>>> var1
1
>>> var7
7

this is a really bad idea that you probably picked up from old code in a 
lesser language. Don't do it that way!

In Python you should use a dict or a list, for example:

>>> var = [] # an empty list
>>> x = 0
>>> while x < 10:
...     var.append(x) # append an item to the list
...     x += 1
... 
>>> var
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]

This can be simplified to a single line:

>>> var = list(range(10))

A few usage examples:

>>> var[0]
0
>>> var[9]
9
>>> var[10]
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
IndexError: list index out of range

As you can see list indices are zero-based. A list of length 10 has items 0 
to 9.

>>> var[7] += 42
>>> var
[0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 49, 8, 9]
>>> sum(var)
87




From bgailer at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 12:26:09 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:26:09 -0500
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52B9C3B1.6060207@gmail.com>

On 12/24/2013 11:07 AM, vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:
> Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python program. (on a raspberri Pi)
>
> I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
>
>
> Lets say i want something like this.
>
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
> 	var x = x
> 	x = x + 1
>
> The results must be:
>
> var1 = 1
> var2 = 2
>
> enz. until var9 = 9
>
> How do i program this in python?
The larger question is "why do you want to do that". It can be done but 
it is almost always a bad idea. Tell us what your goal is and we can 
tell you how we'd go about it.

BTW when checking a condition in a while statement it is better practice 
to say while x < 10. In the above case it does not matter but if you 
were incrementing x by 2 your code would be in an infinite loop, mine 
would still stop.


From vanommen.robert at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 12:54:48 2013
From: vanommen.robert at gmail.com (vanommen.robert at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:54:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5414cedd-6e54-43d0-995b-fe116d4c8225@googlegroups.com>

import time
global Sens_Raw1, Sens_Raw2, Sens_Raw3, Sens_Raw4, Sens_Raw5, Sens_Raw6, Sens_Raw7, Sens_Raw8, Sens_Raw9, Sens_Raw10
while True:
        sensorids = ["28-0000054c4932", "28-0000054c9454", "28-0000054c9fca", "28-0000054c4401", "28-0000054dab99", "28-0000054cf9b4", "28-0000054c8a03", "28-0000054d$
        avgtemperatures = []
        for sensor in range (len(sensorids)):
                temperatures = []
                Sens_Raw = []
                text = '';
                while text.split("\n")[0].find("YES") == -1:
                                tfile = open("/sys/bus/w1/devices/"+ sensorids[sensor] +"/w1_slave")
                                text = tfile.read()
                                tfile.close()
                                time.sleep(0.1)
                secondline = text.split("\n")[1]
                temperaturedata = secondline.split(" ")[9]
                temperature = float(temperaturedata [2:])
                temperatures.append(temperature / 1000)
                print "Sensor ", sensor + 1, temperatures
                # Sens_Raw(sensor) = temperatures



This is the program I am trying to adjust. The goal is to make Sens_Raw1 to 10 global so I can use it in other programs on the Raspberry Pi. The print Sensor wordks fine.

Thanks for any help!


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 13:10:36 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:10:36 -0500
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <5414cedd-6e54-43d0-995b-fe116d4c8225@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <5414cedd-6e54-43d0-995b-fe116d4c8225@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+wsTyuQwuwrRokLV6ZBa5+RK6nE5NqKs-CzBhdQuuDAhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 12:54 PM, <vanommen.robert at gmail.com> wrote:

> import time
> global Sens_Raw1, Sens_Raw2, Sens_Raw3, Sens_Raw4, Sens_Raw5, Sens_Raw6,
> Sens_Raw7, Sens_Raw8, Sens_Raw9, Sens_Raw10
> while True:
>         sensorids = ["28-0000054c4932", "28-0000054c9454",
> "28-0000054c9fca", "28-0000054c4401", "28-0000054dab99", "28-0000054cf9b4",
> "28-0000054c8a03", "28-0000054d$
>

It looks like the previous line is clipped at the end.  It needs a closing
" and a closing ] at least.


>         avgtemperatures = []
>

What is the above line for.  It never reappears below

>         for sensor in range (len(sensorids)):
>                 temperatures = []
>
You never use this either


>                 Sens_Raw = []
>
Or this.


>                 text = '';
>

No semicolon in python!


>         while text.split("\n")[0].find("YES") == -1:
>                                 tfile = open("/sys/bus/w1/devices/"+
> sensorids[sensor] +"/w1_slave")
>                                 text = tfile.read()
>                                 tfile.close()
>                                 time.sleep(0.1)
>                 secondline = text.split("\n")[1]
>                 temperaturedata = secondline.split(" ")[9]
>                 temperature = float(temperaturedata [2:])
>                 temperatures.append(temperature / 1000)
>                 print "Sensor ", sensor + 1, temperatures
>                 # Sens_Raw(sensor) = temperatures
>
>
>
> This is the program I am trying to adjust. The goal is to make Sens_Raw1
> to 10 global so I can use it in other programs on the Raspberry Pi. The
> print Sensor wordks fine.
>

Again, not clear what you need.  You certainly don't need globals.  You may
want to collect all of the Sens_Raw stuff in a list.  If you want that list
to useful to other code, you will need to put it in a module.  Read about
namespaces.
There is nothing wrong with naming things with underscores between the
words.  In fact its recommended.

Sorry, my brain is spinning.  This code is useless.  Why don't you try to
explain what you are trying to accomplish, and you will get better
answers.  As it stands, you perhaps copied this from somewhere.  What is
the data that gets written to text?  Have you any programming skill,
perhaps with another language?


> Thanks for any help!
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From davea at davea.name  Tue Dec 24 13:42:45 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:42:45 -0500
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <5414cedd-6e54-43d0-995b-fe116d4c8225@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <5414cedd-6e54-43d0-995b-fe116d4c8225@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.5834737466275539113@news.gmane.org>

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 09:54:48 -0800 (PST), vanommen.robert at gmail.com 
wrote:

You should always start by mentioning python version and o.s.

> import time
> global Sens_Raw1, Sens_Raw2, Sens_Raw3, Sens_Raw4, Sens_Raw5, 
Sens_Raw6, Sens_Raw7, Sens_Raw8, Sens_Raw9, Sens_Raw10

The global statement makes no sense here, as you're not inside a 
function.  Everything you've written is global. That means global to 
one module or source file. If you need to access data from another 
module you'll use import,  and if you need to share with another 
process you'll need to use a file, a pipe, a queue,  or some other 
mechanism. 

> while True:
>         sensorids = ["28-0000054c4932", "28-0000054c9454", 
"28-0000054c9fca", "28-0000054c4401", "28-0000054dab99", 
"28-0000054cf9b4", "28-0000054c8a03", "28-0000054d$
>         avgtemperatures = []
>         for sensor in range (len(sensorids)):
>                 temperatures = []
>                 Sens_Raw = []

You're clobbering the list every time around the loop.  Move this 
line before the loop.

>                 text = '';
>                 while text.split("\n")[0].find("YES") == -1:
>                                 tfile = 
open("/sys/bus/w1/devices/"+ sensorids[sensor] +"/w1_slave")
>                                 text = tfile.read()
>                                 tfile.close()
>                                 time.sleep(0.1)
>                 secondline = text.split("\n")[1]
>                 temperaturedata = secondline.split(" ")[9]
>                 temperature = float(temperaturedata [2:])
>                 temperatures.append(temperature / 1000)
>                 print "Sensor ", sensor + 1, temperatures
>                 # Sens_Raw(sensor) = temperatures

Use Sens_Raw.append () to add to the end of the list.





> This is the program I am trying to adjust. The goal is to make 
Sens_Raw1 to 10 global so I can use it in other programs on the 
Raspberry Pi. The print Sensor wordks fine.


> Thanks for any help!

-- 
DaveA



From vanommen.robert at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 13:27:13 2013
From: vanommen.robert at gmail.com (vanommen.robert at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <c13e6d17-1703-41f7-81ed-65d9d8b4c259@googlegroups.com>

Indeed this is code what I found on the web to read temperatures from 10 DS18B20 singlewire sensors.

My only programming (little) experience is VBA (Excel mostly).

avgtemperatures = [] is indeed from the original code where this line 

'avgtemperatures.append(sum(temperatures) / float(len(temperatures)))'

was added. i removed it.

You're right about the line sensorids. There are 10 sensors:

 sensorids = ["28-0000054c4932", "28-0000054c9454", "28-0000054c9fca", "28-0000054c4401", "28-0000054dab99", "28-0000054cf9b4", "28-0000054c8a03", "28-0000054d6780", $00054ccdfa", "28-0000054c4f9d"]


In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them available to other scripts.
 
One script to controll my solar water boiler and other heat exchangers connected to this boiler. (fire place for example) 
And in the future I want to make the temperatures available on a website and log them in a mysql database online.

But as I said before, I am just a few days trying to learn how to do it.

Thanks for your time.

greetings Robert


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 21:54:45 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 02:54:45 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <c13e6d17-1703-41f7-81ed-65d9d8b4c259@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9dhdk$do9$5@dont-email.me>

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800, vanommen.robert wrote:

> In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them available
> to other scripts.

The "global" keyword doesn't do that.

"global" is used inside a function definition in python to tell the 
function that it is working with a global (to the program unit) variable.

If you want this process to provide data to other processes, you might 
want to look at using a socket so they can request it as needed.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Dec 25 00:42:47 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 16:42:47 +1100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <l9dhdk$do9$5@dont-email.me>
References: <l9dhdk$do9$5@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <20131225054247.GA65657@cskk.homeip.net>

On 25Dec2013 02:54, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800, vanommen.robert wrote:
> > In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them available
> > to other scripts. [...]
> If you want this process to provide data to other processes, you might 
> want to look at using a socket so they can request it as needed.

Or just write it to a file for another process to open and read...
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Cordless hoses have been around for quite some time. They're called buckets.
        - Dan Prener <prener at watson.ibm.com>


From denismfmcmahon at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 10:27:55 2013
From: denismfmcmahon at gmail.com (Denis McMahon)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:27:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
References: <l9dhdk$do9$5@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4606.1387950178.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 16:42:47 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:

> On 25Dec2013 02:54, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800, vanommen.robert wrote:
>> > In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them
>> > available to other scripts. [...]
>> If you want this process to provide data to other processes, you might
>> want to look at using a socket so they can request it as needed.
> 
> Or just write it to a file for another process to open and read...

That can cause io sync errors, eg if another process has the file opened 
for read when you try to write, or you are writing when they try to read.

For inter process communication, sockets are generally better than files.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon at gmail.com


From cs at zip.com.au  Wed Dec 25 20:01:26 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:01:26 +1100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
References: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>

On 25Dec2013 15:27, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 16:42:47 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > On 25Dec2013 02:54, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800, vanommen.robert wrote:
> >> > In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them
> >> > available to other scripts. [...]
> >> If you want this process to provide data to other processes, you might
> >> want to look at using a socket so they can request it as needed.
> > 
> > Or just write it to a file for another process to open and read...
> 
> That can cause io sync errors, eg if another process has the file opened 
> for read when you try to write, or you are writing when they try to read.

Well, obviously synchronisation of some kind is needed. The easiest
is write-new-file-with-temp-name followed by rename(). Atomic. Lock
files are also not too hard, etc.

> For inter process communication, sockets are generally better than files.

Except for agreement about the ports etc etc, and the need to write
a (possible trite) protocol. At least the filesystem gives great
and ergonomic flexibility about naming the communication point, and
offers file permissions to control who can access stuff instead of
needing some kind of authentication protocol. And of course a file
needs no connect/listen/accept daemon/thread to facilitate
communication.

Of course, a named pipe or UNIX cdomain socket may give the best of both
worlds, depending on the use case.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

In any event, this is a straw herring for debate.
        - solovay at netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 20:35:48 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 12:35:48 +1100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqkzvsrj0CyO-mSJQmTp4o=ZaJy1CsY43NM5aJikY-6iA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 25Dec2013 15:27, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 16:42:47 +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> > On 25Dec2013 02:54, Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 10:27:13 -0800, vanommen.robert wrote:
>> >> > In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them
>> >> > available to other scripts. [...]
>> >> If you want this process to provide data to other processes, you might
>> >> want to look at using a socket so they can request it as needed.
>> >
>> > Or just write it to a file for another process to open and read...
>>
>> That can cause io sync errors, eg if another process has the file opened
>> for read when you try to write, or you are writing when they try to read.
>
> Well, obviously synchronisation of some kind is needed. The easiest
> is write-new-file-with-temp-name followed by rename(). Atomic. Lock
> files are also not too hard, etc.

Does anyone else have the vague feeling that the OP's problem might be
better served by simply importing the script (thus making those values
available to another Python script) than by any of these rather more
complicated theories?

Of course, this requires a little more clarification from the OP, but
I'd rather posit the simple idea and see it knocked down before going
on to the complex :)

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 26 00:41:57 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:41:57 +1100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
References: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4619.1388021757.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52bbc1a5$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Chris Angelico wrote:

> Does anyone else have the vague feeling that the OP's problem might be
> better served by simply importing the script (thus making those values
> available to another Python script) than by any of these rather more
> complicated theories?

Damn yes!



-- 
Steven



From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 26 03:14:28 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 03:14:28 -0500
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <52bbc1a5$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4619.1388021757.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52bbc1a5$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.7235215608803138064@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:41:57 +1100, Steven D'Aprano 
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:


> > Does anyone else have the vague feeling that the OP's problem 
might be
> > better served by simply importing the script (thus making those 
values
> > available to another Python script) than by any of these rather 
more
> > complicated theories?


> Damn yes!

I take it then that my posts are invisible.

-- 
DaveA



From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 03:24:34 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 19:24:34 +1100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.7235215608803138064@news.gmane.org>
References: <l9ethr$o4o$1@dont-email.me>
 <20131226010126.GA17868@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4619.1388021757.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52bbc1a5$0$29992$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <almarsoft.7235215608803138064@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrE=VAhfXnYS=imCii0NNphKHNbJ=-8MMM_xVTV8QrgFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:14 PM, Dave Angel <davea at davea.name> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:41:57 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>> Chris Angelico wrote:
>> > Does anyone else have the vague feeling that the OP's problem
> might be
>> > better served by simply importing the script (thus making those
> values
>> > available to another Python script) than by any of these rather
> more
>> > complicated theories?
>> Damn yes!
>
> I take it then that my posts are invisible.

Ah, true. I'd only been skimming, and didn't see that you'd mentioned
importing as well as IPC.

ChrisA


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec 25 09:52:51 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 15:52:51 +0100
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <c13e6d17-1703-41f7-81ed-65d9d8b4c259@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9eret$6dp$1@ger.gmane.org>

vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:

> Indeed this is code what I found on the web to read temperatures from 10
> DS18B20 singlewire sensors.
> 
> My only programming (little) experience is VBA (Excel mostly).
> 
> avgtemperatures = [] is indeed from the original code where this line
> 
> 'avgtemperatures.append(sum(temperatures) / float(len(temperatures)))'
> 
> was added. i removed it.
> 
> You're right about the line sensorids. There are 10 sensors:
> 
>  sensorids = ["28-0000054c4932", "28-0000054c9454", "28-0000054c9fca",
>  "28-0000054c4401", "28-0000054dab99", "28-0000054cf9b4",
>  "28-0000054c8a03", "28-0000054d6780", $00054ccdfa", "28-0000054c4f9d"]
> 
> 
> In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them available to
> other scripts.
>  
> One script to controll my solar water boiler and other heat exchangers
> connected to this boiler. (fire place for example) And in the future I
> want to make the temperatures available on a website and log them in a
> mysql database online.
> 
> But as I said before, I am just a few days trying to learn how to do it.
> 
> Thanks for your time.
> 
> greetings Robert

(Warning: all untested code -- I don't have a Raspberry Pi)

When you use constants as sensor ids your code will only work for one 
machine, with one configuration. I recommend that you read the sensor ids 
once at startup of the script and then operate with these.

For the code poste below I assume that the output of the sensors looks like 
the examples on this page:

http://www.gtkdb.de/index_7_2035.html

Namely the list of sensors...

pi at raspberrypi ~ $ cat /sys/devices/w1_bus_master1/w1_master_slaves
 10-000801e1799b
 10-000801e17146
 10-000801e17bc6

and the state of a single sensor:

pi at raspberrypi ~ $ cat /sys/devices/w1_bus_master1/10-000801e1799b/w1_slave
 2d 00 4b 46 ff ff 02 10 19 : crc=19 YES
 2d 00 4b 46 ff ff 02 10 19 t=22625

You can then deal with the "lowlevel" stuff in a module like the 
following...

$ cat sensors.py
def read_sensorids():
    with open("/sys/devices/w1_bus_master1/w1_master_slaves") as f:
        return [line.strip() for line in f]

def read_sensor(sensorid):
    with open("/sys/bus/w1/devices/{}/w1_slave".format(sensorid)) as f:
        temperature = f.read().rpartition("=")[-1]
    return float(temperature) / 1000.0

def read_sensors(sensorids=None):
    if sensorids is None:
        sensorids = read_sensorids()

    temperatures = {}
    for sensorid in sensorids:
        temperatures[sensorid] = read_sensor(sensorid)

    return temperatures

def print_temperatures(sensorids=None):
    for k, v in read_sensors(sensorids).items():
        print("Sensor {}: {}".format(k, v))

... and use it like so:

$ cat sensors_demo.py
import sensors
import time

def demo1():
    print "Demo1: detect sensors and print temperatures"
    print "current temperatures:"
    sensors.print_temperatures()
    print

def demo2():
    print "Demo 2, detect available sensors"
    print "found the following sensors:"
    for sensor in sensors.read_sensorids():
        print sensor
    print

def demo3():
    print "Demo 3, choose a sensor and read its temperature every second"
    print "found the following sensors:"
    sensorids = sensors.read_sensorids()
    for index, sensor in enumerate(sensorids):
        print "  {}: {}".format(index, sensor)

    index = int(raw_input("Choose an index "))

    follow_sensor = sensorids[index]
    print "following", follow_sensor
    while True:
        print sensors.read_sensor(follow_sensor)
        time.sleep(1)


if __name__ == "__main__":
    demo1()
    demo2()
    demo3()

A (simulated, as you might guess from the odd variations in temperature) run 
of the above:

$ python sensors_demo.py 
Demo1: detect sensors and print temperatures
current temperatures:
Sensor 10-000801e1799b: 45.052
Sensor 10-000801e17146: 23.841
Sensor 10-000801e17bc6: 45.5

Demo 2, detect available sensors
found the following sensors:
10-000801e1799b
10-000801e17146
10-000801e17bc6

Demo 3, choose a sensor and read its temperature every second
found the following sensors:
  0: 10-000801e1799b
  1: 10-000801e17146
  2: 10-000801e17bc6
Choose an index 1
following 10-000801e17146
12.744
39.557
17.345
16.49
49.73
27.925
35.007
44.142
37.187
10.261
44.359
^CTraceback (most recent call last):
  File "sensors_demo.py", line 36, in <module>
    demo3()
  File "sensors_demo.py", line 30, in demo3
    time.sleep(1)
KeyboardInterrupt

Again, as I don't have a machine to test the above some of my assumptions 
may be false -- or worse, true nine times out of ten.



From torriem at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 01:34:13 2013
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:34:13 -0700
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <c13e6d17-1703-41f7-81ed-65d9d8b4c259@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <c13e6d17-1703-41f7-81ed-65d9d8b4c259@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52BBCDE5.8000601@gmail.com>

On 12/24/2013 11:27 AM, vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:
> Indeed this is code what I found on the web to read temperatures from
> 10 DS18B20 singlewire sensors.
> 
> My only programming (little) experience is VBA (Excel mostly).
> 

Definitely you'll want to learn python before you go much farther in
this project.  Check out the online docs, tutorials, etc.

> In this script i want to read the temperatures and make them
> available to other scripts.

Here's some almost runnable code that might help you get down the right
track.  You'll have to fill in some of the stuff.

temperatures.py:
import time
sensorids = [...] #fill in these with your ids

def _read_sensor(id):
  # open /sys/bus/w1/deevices/id/slave
  text = ''
  while text.split("\n")[0].find("YES") == -1:
    tfile = open("/sys/bus/w1/devices/"+ id +"/w1_slave")
    text = tfile.read()
    tfile.close()
    time.sleep(0.1)
  temperaturedata = text.split("\n")[1].split(" ")[9]it(" ")[9]
  temperature = float(temperaturedata [2:]) / 1000
  return temperature

def get_temperatures():
  # not using list comprehensions but we could
  temps = []
  for sensor in sensorids:
    temps.append(_read_sensor(sensor))

Then in your other python modules (scripts):

import temperatures

print temperatures.get_temperatures() # should print a list

Hope this gives you a bit of structure you can use.  All the code you
need to fill in can come from the code you posted previously.


From orgnut at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 03:13:36 2013
From: orgnut at yahoo.com (Larry Hudson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 00:13:36 -0800
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <jYednUg-TpUsDifPnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d@giganews.com>

On 12/24/2013 08:07 AM, vanommen.robert at gmail.com wrote:
[snip...]
> x = 1
> while x <> 10
> 	var x = x
> 	x = x + 1
[snip...]

Besides the other valid answers you have received, I want to add one other minor nit.  The 
symbol <> for unequal is deprecated -- it's better to use != instead.  Although, as was also 
pointed out, in this particular case you want < (less than) rather than unequal.

      -=- Larry -=-



From vanommen.robert at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 03:53:43 2013
From: vanommen.robert at gmail.com (vanommen.robert at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:53:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <e183ed75-5ee8-429e-90b8-83e064295430@googlegroups.com>

Hello everyone, I have been away for a while.
I have been reading all the good advises and want to explain why I want to read the temperatures separately from the main script. It takes a long time to read out 10 temperatures. About 10 seconds. So that?s the reason why I had the idea to create a separate script and I thought by making te variables Global I could access them by other scripts. Now I know that?s not the purpose of Global.
Maybe I can create a loop that keeps running simultaneously with the rest of the script. 
I?ve downloaded a great student book about Python and learning a lot.
Thanks for all the answers and I?ll post more questions in the future, I?m sure of it.
Greetings Robert


From vanommen.robert at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 17:40:50 2013
From: vanommen.robert at gmail.com (vanommen.robert at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 14:40:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Variables in a loop, Newby question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4597.1387902231.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9ad01eef-baf0-4018-833e-0b4dce4b9b85@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4597.1387902231.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <57342661-b593-43a8-83a2-59f846568456@googlegroups.com>

Op dinsdag 24 december 2013 17:23:43 UTC+1 schreef Jean-Michel Pichavant:
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Hello, for the first time I'm trying te create a little Python
> > program. (on a raspberri Pi)
> > 
> > I don't understand the handling of variables in a loop with Python.
> > 
> > 
> > Lets say i want something like this.
> > 
> > x = 1
> > while x <> 10
> > 	var x = x
> > 	x = x + 1
> > 
> > The results must be:
> > 
> > var1 = 1
> > var2 = 2
> > 
> > enz. until var9 = 9
> > 
> > How do i program this in python?
> 
> Short story, cause it's almost xmas eve :D:
> 
> python 2.5:
> 
> var = {}
> for i in range(10):
>   var[i] = i
> 
> print var[1]
> print var[2]
> print var
> 
> var here is a dictionary. I suggest that you read through the python tutorial :)
> 
> JM
> 
> 
> -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: 
> 
> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

This was the information I was looking for and what my first question was about. Got this working, Thank you.


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 24 19:33:20 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 16:33:20 -0800
Subject: Insert NULL into mySQL datetime
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTzT689bM4twrD+SZAnDde0nurr0q-m=m+5Aipk294Kizw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I am working on  a script that parses CSV file and after successful
parsing insert data ino mySQL table.
One of the fields in CSV holds a date+time value.

What the script should do is check if the cell has any data, i.e. not
empty and then make sure that the data is date+time.
If the validation fails, it should insert NULL into the mySQL datetime
field, otherwise the actual datetime will be inserted.

Right now the script uses a placeholder "0000-00-00 00:00:00.000" if
the date validation fails (either cell is empty or it has wrong data)

What I tried so far is:

C:\Documents and Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\My Documents\GitHub\image_export\Artef
acts>python
Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
(Intel)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import MySQLdb as mdb
>>> conn = mdb.connect('127.0.0.1','root','pass')
>>> cur = conn.cursor()
>>> a = None
>>> cur.execute("Use mydb")
0L
>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))", a)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 202, in execute
    self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
  File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
36, in defaulterrorhandler
    raise errorclass, errorvalue
_mysql_exceptions.ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL syntax
; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for
the right syntax to use near '%s))' at line 1")
>>> a = ""
>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))", a)
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
  File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 202, in execute
    self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
  File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
36, in defaulterrorhandler
    raise errorclass, errorvalue
_mysql_exceptions.OperationalError: (1582, "Incorrect parameter count
in the call to native function 'STR_TO_DATE'")
>>>

Is it possible to do what I want?
I'd like to use one query to insert the data into the table.

Thank you.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Dec 25 04:17:21 2013
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 10:17:21 +0100
Subject: Insert NULL into mySQL datetime
References: <CA+FnnTzT689bM4twrD+SZAnDde0nurr0q-m=m+5Aipk294Kizw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9e7pt$dtk$1@ger.gmane.org>

Igor Korot wrote:

> Hi, ALL,
> I am working on  a script that parses CSV file and after successful
> parsing insert data ino mySQL table.
> One of the fields in CSV holds a date+time value.
> 
> What the script should do is check if the cell has any data, i.e. not
> empty and then make sure that the data is date+time.
> If the validation fails, it should insert NULL into the mySQL datetime
> field, otherwise the actual datetime will be inserted.
> 
> Right now the script uses a placeholder "0000-00-00 00:00:00.000" if
> the date validation fails (either cell is empty or it has wrong data)
> 
> What I tried so far is:
> 
> C:\Documents and Settings\Igor.FORDANWORK\My
> Documents\GitHub\image_export\Artef acts>python
> Python 2.7.5 (default, May 15 2013, 22:43:36) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
> (Intel)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import MySQLdb as mdb
>>>> conn = mdb.connect('127.0.0.1','root','pass')
>>>> cur = conn.cursor()
>>>> a = None
>>>> cur.execute("Use mydb")
> 0L
>>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))",
>>>> a)

The second argument to execute has to be a tuple. Try

cur.execute("INSERT...", (a,))


> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 202, in
>   execute
>     self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
>   File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
> 36, in defaulterrorhandler
>     raise errorclass, errorvalue
> _mysql_exceptions.ProgrammingError: (1064, "You have an error in your SQL
> syntax ; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version
> for the right syntax to use near '%s))' at line 1")
>>>> a = ""
>>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))",
>>>> a)
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>   File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\cursors.py", line 202, in
>   execute
>     self.errorhandler(self, exc, value)
>   File "c:\python27\lib\site-packages\MySQLdb\connections.py", line
> 36, in defaulterrorhandler
>     raise errorclass, errorvalue
> _mysql_exceptions.OperationalError: (1582, "Incorrect parameter count
> in the call to native function 'STR_TO_DATE'")
>>>>
> 
> Is it possible to do what I want?
> I'd like to use one query to insert the data into the table.
> 
> Thank you.




From rurpy at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 25 20:20:35 2013
From: rurpy at yahoo.com (rurpy at yahoo.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 17:20:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Insert NULL into mySQL datetime
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4605.1387931604.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4605.1387931604.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <f5699e77-d83d-4ae5-94cf-38cf64f712d2@googlegroups.com>

On 12/24/2013 05:33 PM, Igor Korot wrote:
> Hi, ALL,
> I am working on  a script that parses CSV file and after successful
> parsing insert data ino mySQL table.
> One of the fields in CSV holds a date+time value.
> 
> What the script should do is check if the cell has any data, i.e. not
> empty and then make sure that the data is date+time.
> If the validation fails, it should insert NULL into the mySQL datetime
> field, otherwise the actual datetime will be inserted.
> 
> Right now the script uses a placeholder "0000-00-00 00:00:00.000" if
> the date validation fails (either cell is empty or it has wrong data)
> 
> What I tried so far is:
> 
[...]
>>>> import MySQLdb as mdb
>>>> conn = mdb.connect('127.0.0.1','root','pass')
>>>> cur = conn.cursor()
>>>> a = None
>>>> cur.execute("Use mydb")
> 0L
>>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))", a)

[...sql syntax error...]

>>>> a = ""
>>>> cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s))", a)

[..."Incorrect parameter count...to native function 'STR_TO_DATE'...]
 
> Is it possible to do what I want?
> I'd like to use one query to insert the data into the table.

I don't use MySql but a quick peak at the docs for 
str_to_date() at:

  http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17952_01/refman-5.6-en/date-and-time-functions.html#function_str-to-date

seems to say that it takes two arguments, the datetime 
string and a format string.  Perhaps that's part of 
your problem?  (And as Peter said, the values argument 
to cursor.execute need to be a tuple, not a single value).

And are you sure that NULL (aka None in Python) is an 
acceptable value for the 'str' argument of str_to_date()?

If not perhaps you need to do something like:

  if a is None:
    cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(NULL))", (,))
  else:
    cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(STR_TO_DATE(%s, '%M %d,%Y'))", (a,))


From jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi  Thu Dec 26 12:59:08 2013
From: jpiitula at ling.helsinki.fi (Jussi Piitulainen)
Date: 26 Dec 2013 19:59:08 +0200
Subject: Insert NULL into mySQL datetime
References: <mailman.4605.1387931604.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <f5699e77-d83d-4ae5-94cf-38cf64f712d2@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4636.1388078036.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <qotlhz7ijdf.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>

Dennis Lee Bieber writes:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 17:20:35 -0800 (PST), rurpy at yahoo.com declaimed
> the following:
> 
> >  if a is None:
> >    cur.execute("Insert Into mytable(datefield) VALUES(NULL))", (,))
> 
> 	I'm pretty sure that MySQLdb, at least, does not require the 
> 			, (,)
> when there are no placeholders in the SQL statement. Might even

Isn't (,) invalid syntax in itself? At least I get the exception from
writing just (,) to Python 3.

The empty tuple is denoted ().


From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 24 21:12:35 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 21:12:35 -0500
Subject: nosetests vs. relative imports?
Message-ID: <roy-287924.21123524122013@news.panix.com>

Environment:
Ubuntu Linux 12.04 (precise)
Python 2.7.3

I have a package (i.e. a directory with a __init__.py file).  In that 
directory, I have files math.py and test_math.py; test_math.py contains 
the single line:

from .math import EMA

If I run on the command line, "nosetests test_math.py" everything is 
fine (it reports "Ran 0 tests in 0.001s", which is what I expect, since 
I haven't written any tests yet).

But, if I leave off the .py, I get:

$ nosetests test_math
E
======================================================================
ERROR: Failure: ValueError (Attempted relative import in non-package)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File 
"/home/roy/deploy/current/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/nose/l
oader.py", line 413, in loadTestsFromName
    addr.filename, addr.module)
  File 
"/home/roy/deploy/current/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/nose/i
mporter.py", line 47, in importFromPath
    return self.importFromDir(dir_path, fqname)
  File 
"/home/roy/deploy/current/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/nose/i
mporter.py", line 94, in importFromDir
    mod = load_module(part_fqname, fh, filename, desc)
  File "/home/roy/deploy/current/code/songza/util/test_math.py", line 1, 
in <module>
    from .math import EMA
ValueError: Attempted relative import in non-package

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ran 1 test in 0.001s


What is going on that nose can't deal with the relative import when run 
that way?

Nose has always felt like a magic ring.  I'm really glad I discovered it 
because it makes my life so much better.  But I'm never quite sure I 
really understand everything it's doing.


From 1011.0011 at 163.com  Wed Dec 25 09:08:32 2013
From: 1011.0011 at 163.com (1011.0011)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 22:08:32 +0800 (CST)
Subject: I hope Python can run in my windows phone
Message-ID: <61ed6160.e487.1432a15dc6f.Coremail.1011.0011@163.com>

I can't compiling myself, and I see Python can run in iphone and android phone. And I feel little unfair.
-------------- next part --------------
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From user at example.net  Wed Dec 25 12:32:41 2013
From: user at example.net (J.O. Aho)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 18:32:41 +0100
Subject: I hope Python can run in my windows phone
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4611.1387982356.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4611.1387982356.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bi0j5qFk3quU1@mid.individual.net>

On 25/12/13 15:08, 1011.0011 wrote:
> I can't compiling myself, and I see Python can run in iphone and android
> phone. And I feel little unfair.


I would suggest you get yourself a Jolla Mobile with SailfishOS, comes 
with python preinstalled.

See shop.jolla.com

Should soon be for sale in main land China.

-- 

  //Aho


From frebe73 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 00:57:42 2013
From: frebe73 at gmail.com (Fredrik Bertilsson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 21:57:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
Message-ID: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>

I am evaluating Python for web development and just found out that I need to restart Apache after source changes on windows. Using linux the situation is better but I still have to touch the wsgi file. Is it only me that finds this being a major drawback compared to PHP?


From dualbus at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 01:27:44 2013
From: dualbus at gmail.com (Eduardo =?utf-8?Q?A=2E_Bustamante_L=C3=B3pez?=)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 22:27:44 -0800
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
In-Reply-To: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
References: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131226062744.GA24262@dualbus.me>

On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 09:57:42PM -0800, Fredrik Bertilsson wrote:
> I am evaluating Python for web development and just found out that I need to restart Apache after source changes on windows. Using linux the situation is better but I still have to touch the wsgi file. Is it only me that finds this being a major drawback compared to PHP?
How is it a ?major drawback?. ?Oh, god, I have to touch that file!
This is unbearable! It's unbeliavable!!! How awful?.

Also, it's not a python issue, it's an issue with your particular
stack. Other stacks do automatic reloading (for example, the web
server that Django uses).

-- 
Eduardo Alan Bustamante L?pez


From frebe73 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 01:36:45 2013
From: frebe73 at gmail.com (Fredrik Bertilsson)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 22:36:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4625.1388039269.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4625.1388039269.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9b851416-a03a-46f7-82c3-20028e05cf37@googlegroups.com>

> Also, it's not a python issue, it's an issue with your particular
> stack. Other stacks do automatic reloading (for example, the web
> server that Django uses).

Which web server do you suggest instead of Apache, which doesn't have this problem? (I am not planning to use Django)


From kwpolska at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 08:13:41 2013
From: kwpolska at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Q2hyaXMg4oCcS3dwb2xza2HigJ0gV2Fycmljaw==?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:13:41 +0100
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
In-Reply-To: <9b851416-a03a-46f7-82c3-20028e05cf37@googlegroups.com>
References: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4625.1388039269.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b851416-a03a-46f7-82c3-20028e05cf37@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMw+j7KkyDQJbdfHop_5rd8R8YuaaRmUS_nk2mY2eNxR53EiKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Fredrik Bertilsson <frebe73 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Also, it's not a python issue, it's an issue with your particular
>> stack. Other stacks do automatic reloading (for example, the web
>> server that Django uses).
>
> Which web server do you suggest instead of Apache, which doesn't have this problem? (I am not planning to use Django)
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

It depends.  Some other frameworks (like Flask) also offer auto-reload
in debug mode ? auto-reload can be bad for you and is not supported by
production environments, in which uWSGI (in Emperor mode if
possible/makes sense on Windows) and nginx is the best solution
around, and auto-reload isn?t supported (for good reasons, as
mentioned before).
-- 
Chris ?Kwpolska? Warrick <http://kwpolska.tk>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense


From pavel at schon.cz  Mon Dec 30 02:32:06 2013
From: pavel at schon.cz (diverman)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 23:32:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
In-Reply-To: <9b851416-a03a-46f7-82c3-20028e05cf37@googlegroups.com>
References: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4625.1388039269.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <9b851416-a03a-46f7-82c3-20028e05cf37@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <9839594b-9a4e-4fe9-a123-2d8b67a456cd@googlegroups.com>

In development environment I suggest to use build-in webserver from wsgiref module, see http://docs.python.org/2/library/wsgiref.html#examples

Then it's easy to run webserver in console and kill&start it with Ctrl+C keystroke. In production environment, use your prefered webserver like apache,nginx etc...

Dne ?tvrtek, 26. prosince 2013 7:36:45 UTC+1 Fredrik Bertilsson napsal(a):
> > Also, it's not a python issue, it's an issue with your particular
> 
> > stack. Other stacks do automatic reloading (for example, the web
> 
> > server that Django uses).
> 
> 
> 
> Which web server do you suggest instead of Apache, which doesn't have this problem? (I am not planning to use Django)


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Thu Dec 26 08:26:58 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 08:26:58 -0500
Subject: Apache restart after source changes
In-Reply-To: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
References: <9e70e719-10f9-4772-8da9-0270538f9fba@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9haqj$keo$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/26/13 12:57 AM, Fredrik Bertilsson wrote:
> I am evaluating Python for web development and just found out that I need to restart Apache after source changes on windows. Using linux the situation is better but I still have to touch the wsgi file. Is it only me that finds this being a major drawback compared to PHP?
>

In general, PHP is more tightly integrated into web servers than Python 
is.  Python's advantages are 1) a more disciplined and carefully planned 
language and standard library, and 2) a larger and broader ecosystem of 
libraries, especially for tasks not directly related to serving web pages.

As to restarting servers after source changes: most people do not change 
file directly on their production servers.  They develop on their own 
machines, test the code, then deploy it to a production server.  In this 
scenario, restarting the web server is not a burden.

I don't know what the options are for auto-restarting the kinds of web 
servers you'd use in production, I'm sure there are some.  Someone here 
mentioned the Django web server, but that isn't intended for production use.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From geosxbox at gmail.com  Wed Dec 25 23:44:39 2013
From: geosxbox at gmail.com (George Tang)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 20:44:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Recovering deleted files
Message-ID: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>

I am new to python and was trying to program with txt files, and tried to move the txt file to a new directory. i did not read very carefully about what shutil.move(src, dst) does and it deleted some of my files. How do i recover my lost files. plz help!


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 10:45:37 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 02:45:37 +1100
Subject: Recovering deleted files
In-Reply-To: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>
References: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq4k7FSfNiqQiPsE4F0f=jN0uBbDd_6tvcePPp0SHjNNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 3:44 PM, George Tang <geosxbox at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am new to python and was trying to program with txt files, and tried to move the txt file to a new directory. i did not read very carefully about what shutil.move(src, dst) does and it deleted some of my files. How do i recover my lost files. plz help!
>

Ouch. I'm afraid Python can't really help you there; you have to go to
your OS and file system now. Do as little as you possibly can on that
disk and you might be able to recover the contents. If you're lucky,
your file system won't have reused those parts of the disk, so
everything'll be intact... if you're REALLY lucky, you might even be
able to find the bits you want without searching the whole disk. But
it depends now on your OS and FS, not on Python.

This is why we make backups of all important files. I like to use
source control (git for me, or you could use Mercurial or another one
with the same result), which makes backing up an inherent part of all
work. But everyone has those critical files that they didn't know
weren't backed up... :(

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 26 17:37:48 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 09:37:48 +1100
Subject: Recovering deleted files
References: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4637.1388078349.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52bcafbd$0$29995$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> If I read the documents properly, shutil.move() does not just blindly
> delete files (it does a copy/delete if crossing file systems, otherwise it
> just does a rename).

What difference does that make? Regardless of whether you do a copy/delete
or rename, whatever file was overridden by the move is still overridden.


-- 
Steven



From rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 19:10:08 2013
From: rantingrickjohnson at gmail.com (Rick Johnson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 16:10:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Recovering deleted files
In-Reply-To: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>
References: <85df4275-b5a8-41e3-a7aa-80b640790c68@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2b93fc03-f017-4450-bd93-05fa39b4f6d4@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, December 25, 2013 10:44:39 PM UTC-6, George Tang wrote:
> I am new to python and was trying to program with txt
> files, and tried to move the txt file to a new directory.
> i did not read very carefully about what shutil.move(src,
> dst) does and it deleted some of my files. How do i
> recover my lost files. plz help!

Well George that's unfortunate. 

I hate to say "i told you so", but i've been preaching the
importance of testing code that manipulates files for many
years. If only you had run the code a few times and MERELY
printed the src and dst paths to stdout you MIGHT could have
saved yourself a tough lesson.

But all may not be lost. 

If you want to post the relevant bits of the source code we
may find a solution for you. Maybe your path munging was
clumsy and you moved them somewhere unexpected... who
knows???


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 13:32:38 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 10:32:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
Message-ID: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>

i am using 2.7.   I need to print the time in seconds from the epoch with millisecond precision.  i have tried many things but have failed.  heres my latest:

        from time import time, strftime
        from datetime import datetime, time

        #  write date, time, then seconds from epoch
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.time()))


what am i doing wrong?  what should i be doing here?  Thanks!


From drsalists at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 14:22:10 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 11:22:10 -0800
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pVTBM-5rJsOe6Ejz0HZcTvMkZpRGyaSGyPtjnr=j5S1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 10:32 AM,  <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
> i am using 2.7.   I need to print the time in seconds from the epoch with millisecond precision.  i have tried many things but have failed.  heres my latest:
>
>         from time import time, strftime
>         from datetime import datetime, time
>
>         #  write date, time, then seconds from epoch
>         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
>         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
>         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.time()))

In [1]: import time

In [2]: time.time()
Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955

HTH


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 26 17:06:17 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:06:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 2:22:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 10:32 AM,  <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > i am using 2.7.   I need to print the time in seconds from the epoch with millisecond precision.  i have tried many things but have failed.  heres my latest:
> 
> >
> 
> >         from time import time, strftime
> 
> >         from datetime import datetime, time
> 
> >
> 
> >         #  write date, time, then seconds from epoch
> 
> >         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
> 
> >         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
> 
> >         self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.time()))
> 
> 
> 
> In [1]: import time
> 
> 
> 
> In [2]: time.time()
> 
> Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955
> 
> 
> 
> HTH

OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.  
Why is this and what can I do to get the millisecond?  


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Thu Dec 26 17:34:20 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 09:34:20 +1100
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52bcaeed$0$29995$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:

> On Thursday, December 26, 2013 2:22:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 10:32 AM,  <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > i am using 2.7.   I need to print the time in seconds from the epoch
>> > with millisecond precision.  i have tried many things but have failed. 
[...]
>> In [1]: import time
>> In [2]: time.time()
>> Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955
>
> 
> OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.
> Why is this and what can I do to get the millisecond?

Please show *exactly* what you did. Also please tell us what operating
system you are using. It may be that your operating system's clock doesn't
provide millisecond precision.



-- 
Steven



From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 26 17:48:32 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:48:32 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:06:17 -0800 (PST), matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com 
wrote:
> On Thursday, December 26, 2013 2:22:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Stromberg 
wrote:
> > In [1]: import time
> > In [2]: time.time()
> > Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955

> OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.  

You're probably on Windows,  which does time differently.  Specify 
your os version and python version and somebody will probably know.

-- 
DaveA



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Dec 26 20:03:34 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:03:34 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/26/2013 5:48 PM, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:06:17 -0800 (PST), matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 26, 2013 2:22:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Stromberg
> wrote:
>> > In [1]: import time
>> > In [2]: time.time()
>> > Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955
>
>> OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.
>
> You're probably on Windows,  which does time differently.

With 3.3 and 3.4 on Windows 7, time.time() gives 6 fractional digits.
 >>> import time; time.time()
1388105935.971099

 > Specify your os version and python version and somebody will probably 
know.

With 2.7, same machine, I only get 3.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From davea at davea.name  Thu Dec 26 23:54:41 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:54:41 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.1875645484412958974@news.gmane.org>

On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:03:34 -0500, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> 
wrote:
> On 12/26/2013 5:48 PM, Dave Angel wrote:
> > You're probably on Windows,  which does time differently.

> With 3.3 and 3.4 on Windows 7, time.time() gives 6 fractional 
digits.
>  >>> import time; time.time()
> 1388105935.971099

> With 2.7, same machine, I only get 3.

The way I recall it,  Windows time is a mess. To get better than 10 
ms resolution you needed to use time.clock, but that isn't epoch 
time. Trickier solutions existed, depending on exactly what the 
problem was. But judging from your test, 3.3 built those gyrations 
into the stdlib. I dunno,  I pretty much stopped using Windows 4 
years ago.

-- 
DaveA



From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 10:42:27 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:42:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bc30ed35-ad7e-4f41-94e6-4b2bbda99aa0@googlegroups.com>

 I pretty much stopped using Windows 4 
> 
> years ago.
> 
I got off the plantation over a year ago and have not looked back. 



From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 10:40:29 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:40:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 11:54:41 PM UTC-5, Dave Angel wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:03:34 -0500, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> 
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > On 12/26/2013 5:48 PM, Dave Angel wrote:
> 
> > > You're probably on Windows,  which does time differently.
> 
> 
> 
> > With 3.3 and 3.4 on Windows 7, time.time() gives 6 fractional 
> 
> digits.
> 
> >  >>> import time; time.time()
> 
> > 1388105935.971099
> 
> 
> 
> > With 2.7, same machine, I only get 3.
> 
> 
> 
> The way I recall it,  Windows time is a mess. To get better than 10 
> 
> ms resolution you needed to use time.clock, but that isn't epoch 
> 
> time. Trickier solutions existed, depending on exactly what the 
> 
> problem was. But judging from your test, 3.3 built those gyrations 
> 
> into the stdlib. I dunno,  I pretty much stopped using Windows 4 
> 
> years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> DaveA

I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used datetime? thanks!  


From davea at davea.name  Fri Dec 27 11:20:41 2013
From: davea at davea.name (Dave Angel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:20:41 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <almarsoft.1272171006068249011@news.gmane.org>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:40:29 -0800 (PST), matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com 
wrote:
> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal 
places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. 
maybe i used datetime? thanks!

Now I'm stumped.  2.7.3 on Ubuntu 12.04 and time.time gives me 6 
decimals. Of course it's a float, so you could get more or fewer. But 
if you're only seeing 2, something else is different.

-- 
DaveA



From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 11:27:58 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:27:58 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>

In article <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a at googlegroups.com>,
 matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:

> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places. 
> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used 
> datetime? thanks!  

That's strange.  Linux should give you time to the microsecond, or 
something in that range.

Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted 
earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can 
only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called 
"prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:

cat /etc/lsb-release

uname -a

python --version

cat prog.py

python prog.py


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 13:09:06 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:09:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:27:58 AM UTC-5, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a at googlegroups.com>,
> 
>  matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places. 
> 
> > Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used 
> 
> > datetime? thanks!  
> 
> 
> 
> That's strange.  Linux should give you time to the microsecond, or 
> 
> something in that range.
> 
> 
> 
> Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted 
> 
> earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can 
> 
> only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called 
> 
> "prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:
> 
> 
i cant run it that way.  i tried using the python prompt in terminal but got nothing.  but here is all the code relevant to this issue:
#all the imports
import sys
import posixpath
import time
from time import strftime
from datetime import datetime
import os
import wx
import cPickle as pickle
import gnuradio.gr.gr_threading as _threading


#the function that writes the time values
 def update(self, field_values):
        
        now = datetime.now()
        
        #logger ---------------
        #  new line to write on
        self.logfile.write('\n')
        #  write date, time, and seconds from the epoch
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
        self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(time.time()))
        # list to store dictionary keys in tis order
        keys = ["duid", "nac",  "tgid", "source", "algid", "kid"]
        # loop through the keys in the right order
        for k in keys:
            #  get the value of the current key
            f = field_values.get(k, None)            
            # if data unit has value...
            if f:
                #  output the value with trailing tab
                self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(str(f)))  
            # if data unit doesnt have this value print a tab
            else:
                self.logfile.write('\t')
        #end logger ----------------

        #if the field 'duid' == 'hdu', then clear fields
        if field_values['duid'] == 'hdu':
            self.clear()
        elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu1':
            self.clear()
        elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu2':
            self.clear()
        #elif field_values['duid'] == 'tdu':
         #   self.clear()
        #loop through all TextCtrl fields storing the key/value pairs in k, v
        for k,v in self.fields.items():        
            # get the dict value for this TextCtrl
            f = field_values.get(k, None)            
            # if the value is empty then set the new value
            if f:
                v.SetValue(f)

#sample output in a .txt file:

2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.18
2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.36
2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.54
2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.73
2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.91
2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.11
2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.28
2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.48
2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.66
2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.84
2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.62
2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.81
2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.99
2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.18
2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.37
2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.54
2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.73
2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.92

Thanks!


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 27 13:49:54 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:49:54 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9ki46$khg$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/27/13 1:09 PM, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:27:58 AM UTC-5, Roy Smith wrote:
>> In article <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a at googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>   matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places.
>>
>>> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used
>>
>>> datetime? thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> That's strange.  Linux should give you time to the microsecond, or
>>
>> something in that range.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted
>>
>> earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can
>>
>> only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called
>>
>> "prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:
>>
>>
> i cant run it that way.  i tried using the python prompt in terminal but got nothing.  but here is all the code relevant to this issue:
> #all the imports
> import sys
> import posixpath
> import time
> from time import strftime
> from datetime import datetime
> import os
> import wx
> import cPickle as pickle
> import gnuradio.gr.gr_threading as _threading
>
>
> #the function that writes the time values
>   def update(self, field_values):
>
>          now = datetime.now()
>
>          #logger ---------------
>          #  new line to write on
>          self.logfile.write('\n')
>          #  write date, time, and seconds from the epoch
>          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
>          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
>          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(time.time()))
>          # list to store dictionary keys in tis order
>          keys = ["duid", "nac",  "tgid", "source", "algid", "kid"]
>          # loop through the keys in the right order
>          for k in keys:
>              #  get the value of the current key
>              f = field_values.get(k, None)
>              # if data unit has value...
>              if f:
>                  #  output the value with trailing tab
>                  self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(str(f)))
>              # if data unit doesnt have this value print a tab
>              else:
>                  self.logfile.write('\t')
>          #end logger ----------------
>
>          #if the field 'duid' == 'hdu', then clear fields
>          if field_values['duid'] == 'hdu':
>              self.clear()
>          elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu1':
>              self.clear()
>          elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu2':
>              self.clear()
>          #elif field_values['duid'] == 'tdu':
>           #   self.clear()
>          #loop through all TextCtrl fields storing the key/value pairs in k, v
>          for k,v in self.fields.items():
>              # get the dict value for this TextCtrl
>              f = field_values.get(k, None)
>              # if the value is empty then set the new value
>              if f:
>                  v.SetValue(f)
>
> #sample output in a .txt file:
>
> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.18
> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.36
> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.54
> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.73
> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.91
> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.11
> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.28
> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.48
> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.66
> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.84
> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.62
> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.81
> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.99
> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.18
> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.37
> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.54
> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.73
> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.92
>
> Thanks!
>

Instead of:

     "%s" % time.time()

try:

     "%.6f" % time.time()

%.6f is a formatting code meaning, floating-point number, 6 decimal places.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 13:50:32 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:50:32 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-4A275D.13503227122013@news.panix.com>

In article <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803 at googlegroups.com>,
 matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:

> > Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted 
> > earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can 
> > only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called 
> > "prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:
> > 
> i cant run it that way.  i tried using the python prompt in terminal but got 
> nothing.

Why can't you run it that way?  What does "got nothing" mean?  Did you 
just get another shell prompt back with no output?  Did your shell 
window close?  Did the machine crash?

I asked you to run these commands:

> cat /etc/lsb-release
> 
> uname -a
> 
> python --version

Did you run them?  What output did you get?  I know it seems silly, but 
it really is important that people know exactly what your environment 
is.  The less information we have, the harder it is to figure out what's 
going on.

> but here is all the code relevant to this issue:

Well, you've got a lot of code there.  What you want to do is reduce 
this down to the smallest possible amount of code which demonstrates the 
problem.

I can't even begin to run your code here because I don't have gnuradio 
installed.  It's almost certainly not necessary to demonstrate the 
problem (nor are posixpath, cPickle, wx, etc), but I can already see 
that as soon as I delete those, I'll run up against the next problem, 
which is that update() is a method of a class and I don't have the rest 
of that class.

Let's take this one step at a time.  You've got:

self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(time.time()))

which is apparently causing, "1388164053.18", to end up in your output 
file.  The question is, why are there only two digits after the decimal 
place?  Possible causes:

1) Your version of time.time() is returning a float which is only 
precise to the centisecond.

2) Your version of string's %s operator is only converting floats to two 
decimal places.

3) Your self.logfile.write() method is taking the string it was given 
and stripping off all the digits beyond two after the decimal point.

All of those seem about equally unlikely, so just start to eliminate 
them one by one.  What happens if you do:

self.logfile.write("1388164053.183454")

What happens if you do:

t = time.time()
self.logfile.write("str=%s, repr=%s", (str(t), repr(t)))

what happens if you get rid of the whole self.logfile.write() thing and 
just use print?  If you're working in some environment where stdout gets 
redirected somewhere that you can't find, bypass stdout completely:

my_file = open("/tmp/foo", "w")
print >> my_file, time.time()

and then go look and see what got dropped into /tmp/foo.


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 13:53:33 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:53:33 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-4A275D.13503227122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-172BE8.13533327122013@news.panix.com>

In article <roy-4A275D.13503227122013 at news.panix.com>,
 Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:

> self.logfile.write("str=%s, repr=%s", (str(t), repr(t)))

Ugh, make that:

> self.logfile.write("str=%s, repr=%s" % ((str(t), repr(t)))


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 20:15:33 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 20:15:33 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-4A275D.13503227122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <roy-3058E3.20153327122013@news.panix.com>

matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> I need to print the time in seconds from the epoch with 
> millisecond precision.  

I wrote:

> What happens if you do:
> 
> t = time.time()
> self.logfile.write("str=%s, repr=%s", (str(t), repr(t)))

At the time I originally posted that, I was baffled as to what was going 
on and was simply feeding you suggestions for how to go about debugging 
the problem logically.

However, I have since figured out exactly what's going on.  I'm going to 
do you a favor and NOT tell you what I've figured out (because you won't 
learn anything that way), but I will give you a hint.  The hint is that 
if you run the two lines of code I suggested above, the answer should be 
obvious.

And, once you do that, please report your findings back to us, because 
it's a fun little quirk of Python and one that I suspect has tripped up 
more than a few people over time.  In fact, I seem to recall being 
mystified by this myself once.


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 07:16:02 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 04:16:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:49:54 PM UTC-5, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/27/13 1:09 PM, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:27:58 AM UTC-5, Roy Smith wrote:
> 
> >> In article <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a at googlegroups.com>,
> 
> >>
> 
> >>   matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used
> 
> >>
> 
> >>> datetime? thanks!
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> That's strange.  Linux should give you time to the microsecond, or
> 
> >>
> 
> >> something in that range.
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted
> 
> >>
> 
> >> earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can
> 
> >>
> 
> >> only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called
> 
> >>
> 
> >> "prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> > i cant run it that way.  i tried using the python prompt in terminal but got nothing.  but here is all the code relevant to this issue:
> 
> > #all the imports
> 
> > import sys
> 
> > import posixpath
> 
> > import time
> 
> > from time import strftime
> 
> > from datetime import datetime
> 
> > import os
> 
> > import wx
> 
> > import cPickle as pickle
> 
> > import gnuradio.gr.gr_threading as _threading
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> > #the function that writes the time values
> 
> >   def update(self, field_values):
> 
> >
> 
> >          now = datetime.now()
> 
> >
> 
> >          #logger ---------------
> 
> >          #  new line to write on
> 
> >          self.logfile.write('\n')
> 
> >          #  write date, time, and seconds from the epoch
> 
> >          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
> 
> >          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
> 
> >          self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(time.time()))
> 
> >          # list to store dictionary keys in tis order
> 
> >          keys = ["duid", "nac",  "tgid", "source", "algid", "kid"]
> 
> >          # loop through the keys in the right order
> 
> >          for k in keys:
> 
> >              #  get the value of the current key
> 
> >              f = field_values.get(k, None)
> 
> >              # if data unit has value...
> 
> >              if f:
> 
> >                  #  output the value with trailing tab
> 
> >                  self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(str(f)))
> 
> >              # if data unit doesnt have this value print a tab
> 
> >              else:
> 
> >                  self.logfile.write('\t')
> 
> >          #end logger ----------------
> 
> >
> 
> >          #if the field 'duid' == 'hdu', then clear fields
> 
> >          if field_values['duid'] == 'hdu':
> 
> >              self.clear()
> 
> >          elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu1':
> 
> >              self.clear()
> 
> >          elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu2':
> 
> >              self.clear()
> 
> >          #elif field_values['duid'] == 'tdu':
> 
> >           #   self.clear()
> 
> >          #loop through all TextCtrl fields storing the key/value pairs in k, v
> 
> >          for k,v in self.fields.items():
> 
> >              # get the dict value for this TextCtrl
> 
> >              f = field_values.get(k, None)
> 
> >              # if the value is empty then set the new value
> 
> >              if f:
> 
> >                  v.SetValue(f)
> 
> >
> 
> > #sample output in a .txt file:
> 
> >
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.18
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.36
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.54
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.73
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.91
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.11
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.28
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.48
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.66
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.84
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.62
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.81
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.99
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.18
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.37
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.54
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.73
> 
> > 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.92
> 
> >
> 
> > Thanks!
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Instead of:
> 
> 
> 
>      "%s" % time.time()
> 
> 
> 
> try:
> 
> 
> 
>      "%.6f" % time.time()
> 
> 
> 
> %.6f is a formatting code meaning, floating-point number, 6 decimal places.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

thanks a bunch.  the "%.6f"  was the cure.  can you please point me to the doc for formatting time?  Thanks!


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 09:14:55 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 14:14:55 +0000
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9rv4l$ltb$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 12:16, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 27, 2013 1:49:54 PM UTC-5, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/27/13 1:09 PM, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, December 27, 2013 11:27:58 AM UTC-5, Roy Smith wrote:
>>
>>>> In article <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a at googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>    matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>> datetime? thanks!
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> That's strange.  Linux should give you time to the microsecond, or
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> something in that range.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Please post the *exact* code you're running.  The code you posted
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> earlier is obviously only a fragment of some larger program, so we can
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> only guess what's happening.  Assuming your program is in a file called
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> "prog.py", run the following commands and copy-paste the output:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> i cant run it that way.  i tried using the python prompt in terminal but got nothing.  but here is all the code relevant to this issue:
>>
>>> #all the imports
>>
>>> import sys
>>
>>> import posixpath
>>
>>> import time
>>
>>> from time import strftime
>>
>>> from datetime import datetime
>>
>>> import os
>>
>>> import wx
>>
>>> import cPickle as pickle
>>
>>> import gnuradio.gr.gr_threading as _threading
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> #the function that writes the time values
>>
>>>    def update(self, field_values):
>>
>>>
>>
>>>           now = datetime.now()
>>
>>>
>>
>>>           #logger ---------------
>>
>>>           #  new line to write on
>>
>>>           self.logfile.write('\n')
>>
>>>           #  write date, time, and seconds from the epoch
>>
>>>           self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(strftime("%Y-%m-%d",)))
>>
>>>           self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(now.strftime("%H:%M:%S",)))
>>
>>>           self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(time.time()))
>>
>>>           # list to store dictionary keys in tis order
>>
>>>           keys = ["duid", "nac",  "tgid", "source", "algid", "kid"]
>>
>>>           # loop through the keys in the right order
>>
>>>           for k in keys:
>>
>>>               #  get the value of the current key
>>
>>>               f = field_values.get(k, None)
>>
>>>               # if data unit has value...
>>
>>>               if f:
>>
>>>                   #  output the value with trailing tab
>>
>>>                   self.logfile.write('%s\t'%(str(f)))
>>
>>>               # if data unit doesnt have this value print a tab
>>
>>>               else:
>>
>>>                   self.logfile.write('\t')
>>
>>>           #end logger ----------------
>>
>>>
>>
>>>           #if the field 'duid' == 'hdu', then clear fields
>>
>>>           if field_values['duid'] == 'hdu':
>>
>>>               self.clear()
>>
>>>           elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu1':
>>
>>>               self.clear()
>>
>>>           elif field_values['duid'] == 'ldu2':
>>
>>>               self.clear()
>>
>>>           #elif field_values['duid'] == 'tdu':
>>
>>>            #   self.clear()
>>
>>>           #loop through all TextCtrl fields storing the key/value pairs in k, v
>>
>>>           for k,v in self.fields.items():
>>
>>>               # get the dict value for this TextCtrl
>>
>>>               f = field_values.get(k, None)
>>
>>>               # if the value is empty then set the new value
>>
>>>               if f:
>>
>>>                   v.SetValue(f)
>>
>>>
>>
>>> #sample output in a .txt file:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.18
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.36
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.54
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.73
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:33	1388164053.91
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.11
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.28
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.48
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.66
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:34	1388164054.84
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.62
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.81
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:37	1388164057.99
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.18
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.37
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.54
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.73
>>
>>> 2013-12-27	12:07:38	1388164058.92
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Instead of:
>>
>>
>>
>>       "%s" % time.time()
>>
>>
>>
>> try:
>>
>>
>>
>>       "%.6f" % time.time()
>>
>>
>>
>> %.6f is a formatting code meaning, floating-point number, 6 decimal places.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
>
> thanks a bunch.  the "%.6f"  was the cure.  can you please point me to the doc for formatting time?  Thanks!
>

Would you please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing the 
double line spacing above, thanks.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From cousinstanley at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 12:07:11 2013
From: cousinstanley at gmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:07:11 -0700
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4716.1388412908.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l9s982$mdd$1@dont-email.me>


>> On 30/12/2013 12:16, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>> ....
>>
>> thanks a bunch.  the "%.6f"  was the cure.  
>> can you please point me to the doc for formatting time?  
>> Thanks!
>>

> Would you please read and action this 
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython 
> to prevent us seeing the double line spacing above, thanks.

  You might consider either turning off an option
  in your news client for including message in reply
  and/or snipping all but a few lines for context
  to prevent us from seeing the double line spacing
  all over again .... :-)
 

-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 12:35:14 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 17:35:14 +0000
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <l9s982$mdd$1@dont-email.me>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4716.1388412908.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l9s982$mdd$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <l9sas8$pj7$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 17:07, Cousin Stanley wrote:
>
>>> On 30/12/2013 12:16, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
>>> ....
>>>
>>> thanks a bunch.  the "%.6f"  was the cure.
>>> can you please point me to the doc for formatting time?
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>
>> Would you please read and action this
>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>> to prevent us seeing the double line spacing above, thanks.
>
>    You might consider either turning off an option
>    in your news client for including message in reply
>    and/or snipping all but a few lines for context
>    to prevent us from seeing the double line spacing
>    all over again .... :-)
>

Great idea, but one slight snag is the poster then doesn't see how many 
newlines they've managed to insert using their superb tool.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From cousinstanley at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 13:17:36 2013
From: cousinstanley at gmail.com (Cousin Stanley)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:17:36 -0700
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4716.1388412908.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l9s982$mdd$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4721.1388424933.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <l9sdck$in9$1@dont-email.me>


>> You might consider either turning off an option
>> in your news client for including message in reply
>> and/or snipping all but a few lines for context
>> to prevent us from seeing the double line spacing
>> all over again .... :-)
 
> Great idea, but one slight snag is 
> the poster then doesn't see how many newlines 
> they've managed to insert using their superb tool.

  A few lines to illustrate along with your
  standard reference  might  be enough ....  

    https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython

>>>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places.
> 
>>>
> 
>>>> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i used
> 
>>>
> 
>>>> datetime? thanks!
 

-- 
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 30 13:57:59 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 05:57:59 +1100
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <almarsoft.6946291744654795180@news.gmane.org> <l9ijl4$e2c$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4650.1388120007.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-CC46A3.11275827122013@news.panix.com>
 <1db0d993-9d2d-46af-9ee8-69d9250dc803@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4676.1388170207.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <bfb11374-f074-418a-9531-d2af614985bc@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4716.1388412908.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <l9s982$mdd$1@dont-email.me>
 <mailman.4721.1388424933.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52c1c238$0$29986$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 30/12/2013 17:07, Cousin Stanley wrote:

[...]
>>> Would you please read and action this
>>> https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython
>>> to prevent us seeing the double line spacing above, thanks.
>>
>> You might consider either turning off an option
>> in your news client for including message in reply
>> and/or snipping all but a few lines for context
>> to prevent us from seeing the double line spacing
>> all over again .... :-)
>>
> 
> Great idea, 

Yes it is. It's a bloody brilliant idea. If only there were some sort of
delete or backspace key on the keyboard that would allow the person
replying to trim or snip excess quoting...


> but one slight snag is the poster then doesn't see how many 
> newlines they've managed to insert using their superb tool.

So what? Chances are that Google Groups will cleverly hide the quoting from
them anyway, which means that you're not demonstrating the problem to them,
you're just spamming the group with double-spaced, excessively quoted,
irrelevant text. Even if they see the quoted text, half a dozen lines is
more than enough to demonstrate the problem to any reasonable person, they
can extrapolate from that. If half a dozen quoted lines isn't enough to
persuade them to read the link, a million lines won't be.


-- 
Steven



From cs at zip.com.au  Fri Dec 27 19:25:42 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 11:25:42 +1100
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <20131228002542.GA45418@cskk.homeip.net>

On 27Dec2013 07:40, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal
> places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it.
> maybe i used datetime? thanks!

Repeatedly people have asked you to show your exact code. Still nothing.

Here's a clue, from a Gentoo box running kernel 3.2.1-gentoo-r2:

  $ python
  Python 2.7.2 (default, Feb  9 2012, 18:40:46)
  [GCC 4.5.3] on linux2
  Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
  >>> import time; print time.time()
  1388190100.44
  >>> import time; time.time()
  1388190102.795531
  >>>

Please show us _exactly_ what you're doing. I'm guessing that print
is confusing you.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

Try moving off NT easily.  You can move from Solaris to HP/UX to AIX or
DEC easily-- relative to moving off of NT, which is like a Roach
Motel.  Once you check in, you never check out.
        - Scott McNealy, Sun Microsystems


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 27 21:10:49 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 21:10:49 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <20131228002542.GA45418@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <20131228002542.GA45418@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <l9lbut$j89$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/27/13 7:25 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 27Dec2013 07:40, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal
>> places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it.
>> maybe i used datetime? thanks!
>
> Repeatedly people have asked you to show your exact code. Still nothing.

Is something wrong with the connectivity of this list?  Matt posted his 
code about six hours before your message.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From steve at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 27 22:50:17 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 28 Dec 2013 03:50:17 GMT
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <20131228002542.GA45418@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.4683.1388196666.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52be4a79$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 21:10:49 -0500, Ned Batchelder wrote:

> On 12/27/13 7:25 PM, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> On 27Dec2013 07:40, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com
>> <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal places.
>>> Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it. maybe i
>>> used datetime? thanks!
>>
>> Repeatedly people have asked you to show your exact code. Still
>> nothing.
> 
> Is something wrong with the connectivity of this list?  Matt posted his
> code about six hours before your message.

Methinks too many people have been hitting the Christmas eggnog a little 
harder than is wise...

:-)




-- 
Steven


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 21:44:03 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 18:44:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 27, 2013 7:25:42 PM UTC-5, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 27Dec2013 07:40, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal
> 
> > places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it.
> 
> > maybe i used datetime? thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Repeatedly people have asked you to show your exact code. Still nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a clue, from a Gentoo box running kernel 3.2.1-gentoo-r2:
> 
> 
> 
>   $ python
> 
>   Python 2.7.2 (default, Feb  9 2012, 18:40:46)
> 
>   [GCC 4.5.3] on linux2
> 
>   Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> 
>   >>> import time; print time.time()
> 
>   1388190100.44
> 
>   >>> import time; time.time()
> 
>   1388190102.795531
> 
>   >>>
> 
> 
> 
> Please show us _exactly_ what you're doing. I'm guessing that print
> 
> is confusing you.
> 
> 
> 
matt at matt-Inspiron-1525:~$ python
Python 2.7.3 (default, Sep 26 2013, 16:38:10) 
[GCC 4.7.2] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import time; print time.time()
1388371148.39
>>> import time; time.time()
1388371173.556624
>>> 

i get the same result as you expect.  so its got to be the write statement that is truncated the decimal places right?  


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 30 07:50:40 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 07:50:40 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9rq6k$5bo$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/29/13 9:44 PM, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 27, 2013 7:25:42 PM UTC-5, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> On 27Dec2013 07:40, matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com <matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am on Ubuntu 12.10.   I am still working with the 2 decimal
>>
>>> places. Sometime ago i had this issue and I forget how i solved it.
>>
>>> maybe i used datetime? thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Repeatedly people have asked you to show your exact code. Still nothing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's a clue, from a Gentoo box running kernel 3.2.1-gentoo-r2:
>>
>>
>>
>>    $ python
>>
>>    Python 2.7.2 (default, Feb  9 2012, 18:40:46)
>>
>>    [GCC 4.5.3] on linux2
>>
>>    Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>
>>    >>> import time; print time.time()
>>
>>    1388190100.44
>>
>>    >>> import time; time.time()
>>
>>    1388190102.795531
>>
>>    >>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Please show us _exactly_ what you're doing. I'm guessing that print
>>
>> is confusing you.
>>
>>
>>
> matt at matt-Inspiron-1525:~$ python
> Python 2.7.3 (default, Sep 26 2013, 16:38:10)
> [GCC 4.7.2] on linux2
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import time; print time.time()
> 1388371148.39
>>>> import time; time.time()
> 1388371173.556624
>>>>
>
> i get the same result as you expect.  so its got to be the write statement that is truncated the decimal places right?
>

Objects in Python have two different ways to produce a string of 
themselves, known as the str() and the repr().  A float's str() includes 
two decimal points of precision, its repr() includes as many as you'd 
need to reproduce the float again.  The print statement implicitly uses 
the str(), the interactive interpreter uses the repr().

Luckily, you can decide how to format the float yourself:

     >>> import time
     >>> time.time()
     1388407706.617985
     >>> print time.time()
     1388407709.21
     >>> print "%.3f" % time.time()
     1388407716.377
     >>> print "%.4f" % time.time()
     1388407726.1001

BTW, I said something very similar in this thread 2.5 days ago: 
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/663454.html
I get the feeling not all messages are flowing to all places.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Mon Dec 30 08:01:21 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:01:21 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <l9rq6k$5bo$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>
 <l9rq6k$5bo$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9rqqk$c1b$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/30/13 7:50 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> BTW, I said something very similar in this thread 2.5 days ago:
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/663454.html
> I get the feeling not all messages are flowing to all places.

Oops, and now Matt's reply to that message has just arrived! Sorry for 
the noise.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 08:40:02 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 05:40:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4715.1388408492.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>
 <l9rq6k$5bo$1@ger.gmane.org>
 <mailman.4715.1388408492.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <6a43f7fe-0757-4224-a1e7-8fe2ed67b9e4@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 30, 2013 8:01:21 AM UTC-5, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> On 12/30/13 7:50 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> 
> > BTW, I said something very similar in this thread 2.5 days ago:
> 
> > https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/663454.html
> 
> > I get the feeling not all messages are flowing to all places.
> 
> 
> 
> Oops, and now Matt's reply to that message has just arrived! Sorry for 
> 
> the noise.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com

the formatting:
   self.logfile.write('%.6f\t'%(time.time()))

fixed it.  thank you very much.  


From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 30 09:22:21 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 09:22:21 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <0c33b7e4-edc9-4e1e-b919-fec210c92d4a@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4682.1388190359.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <a891e541-7764-4aa2-a614-a6bceecd953e@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4714.1388407860.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-18A90D.09222130122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4714.1388407860.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com> wrote:

> A float's str() includes two decimal points of precision

It's actually weirder than that.  What str() appears to do is print some 
variable number of digits after the decimal place, depending on the 
magnitude of the number, and then flips over to exponential notation at 
some point.  All of this is in line with str()'s intent, which is to 
produce a human-friendly string:

for i in range(15):
    f = 10**i + 0.123456789
    print "%-20s %-20s" % (str(f), repr(f))


$ python float.py
1.123456789          1.123456789         
10.123456789         10.123456789        
100.123456789        100.123456789       
1000.12345679        1000.123456789      
10000.1234568        10000.123456789     
100000.123457        100000.123456789    
1000000.12346        1000000.123456789   
10000000.1235        10000000.12345679   
100000000.123        100000000.12345679  
1000000000.12        1000000000.1234568  
10000000000.1        10000000000.123457  
1e+11                100000000000.12346  
1e+12                1000000000000.1234  
1e+13                10000000000000.123  
1e+14                100000000000000.12

It just happens that for the range of values time.time() is returning 
these days, two decimal digits is what you get.  Unix time rolled over 
to this many digits on

>>> time.ctime(999999999)
'Sat Sep  8 21:46:39 2001'

so before then, str(time.time()) would have (presumably) generated 3 
decimal digits.

Note that repr() also adjusts the number of digits after the decimal 
place, but this is because it's run out of available hardware precision 
(IEEE double precision is about 16 decimal digits).

Also note that while repr() is smart enough to stop when it runs out of 
bits, the %f format specifier isn't:

>>> f = 10000000000000.123456789
>>> repr(f)
'10000000000000.123'
>>> "%.6f" % f
'10000000000000.123047'

[Ned, again]
> Luckily, you can decide how to format the float yourself:
> [...]
>      >>> print "%.4f" % time.time()
>      1388407726.1001

The problem here is that you have no guarantee here that all those 
digits are meaningful.  I'm not sure what would happen on a machine 
where the system clock only gives centisecond precision.

I would like to think "%.4f" % time.time() would always produce a string 
with 4 digits after the decimal point, the last two of which were 
guaranteed to be "0".  But not having such a box handy to test, that's 
just a conjecture.  A much more pathological case would be that it 
produces random garbage for the extra digits, which would make it appear 
that you were getting more time precision than you really were.

All of which is a good reason to avoid raw timestamps and use datetime.  
With a datatime object, somebody else has already worried about these 
things for you.

PS: all the above examples were done with Python 2.7.1 on OSX 10.7.


From roy at panix.com  Thu Dec 26 20:29:15 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 20:29:15 -0500
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-B103F9.20291526122013@news.panix.com>

In article <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e at googlegroups.com>,
 matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:

> > In [1]: import time
> > In [2]: time.time()
> > Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955
> 
> OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.  
> Why is this and what can I do to get the millisecond?  

What operating system are you on?  The Python time routines can only 
return as much precision as the operating system makes available.


From matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 10:43:13 2013
From: matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com (matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:43:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: need to print seconds from the epoch including the millisecond
In-Reply-To: <roy-B103F9.20291526122013@news.panix.com>
References: <e0e7da6b-5cd9-4e6d-bcca-604bd4bd8d73@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4638.1388085731.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e@googlegroups.com>
 <roy-B103F9.20291526122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <d6c12175-2a89-4a9b-a9fa-b3a5eb4d6573@googlegroups.com>

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:29:15 PM UTC-5, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <59aa73ac-e06e-4c0e-83a4-147ac42cad2e at googlegroups.com>,
> 
>  matt.doolittle33 at gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > > In [1]: import time
> 
> > > In [2]: time.time()
> 
> > > Out[2]: 1388085670.1567955
> 
> > 
> 
> > OK i did what you said but I am only getting 2 decimal places.  
> 
> > Why is this and what can I do to get the millisecond?  
> 
> 
> 
> What operating system are you on?  The Python time routines can only 
> 
> return as much precision as the operating system makes available.

I use Ubuntu 12.10.  Thanks!


From wenwuxiezi at 163.com  Thu Dec 26 21:54:09 2013
From: wenwuxiezi at 163.com (=?GBK?B?zfTOsLHz?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:54:09 +0800 (CST)
Subject: How to learn Python effectively
Message-ID: <1da81a00.4221.14331f92aab.Coremail.wenwuxiezi@163.com>

I am a beginner in Python, and I find that there are various books about Python. 
There are almost the same contents between some, So I want a recommendation of a 
good order of the books, which can make me learn Python more effectively. Thanks a lot.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:22:29 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 21:22:29 -0800
Subject: How to learn Python effectively
In-Reply-To: <1da81a00.4221.14331f92aab.Coremail.wenwuxiezi@163.com>
References: <1da81a00.4221.14331f92aab.Coremail.wenwuxiezi@163.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_p0gL9TL=im1vYOq3HOM7myyy7iuVXnGZxyiQv-ERq4cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 6:54 PM, ??? <wenwuxiezi at 163.com> wrote:
> I am a beginner in Python, and I find that there are various books about
> Python.
> There are almost the same contents between some, So I want a recommendation
> of a
> good order of the books, which can make me learn Python more effectively.
> Thanks a lot.

There's a lot of good material on the web about Python:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers
https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers

I don't have a book recommendation.


From nobody at nowhere.com  Fri Dec 27 00:04:54 2013
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Travis McGee)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:04:54 -0500
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
Message-ID: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>

The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try 
something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now, 
everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I 
find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2 
unless I explicitly specify Python 3.

What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package, 
should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 00:07:00 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 00:07:00 -0500
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
Message-ID: <roy-FD8102.00070027122013@news.panix.com>

In article <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759 at fx11.iad>,
 Travis McGee <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:

> The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try 
> something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now, 
> everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I 
> find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2 
> unless I explicitly specify Python 3.
> 
> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package, 
> should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.

The future is indeed Python 3.  The problem with the future is that it's 
not here yet.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:14:31 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:14:31 +1100
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <roy-FD8102.00070027122013@news.panix.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
 <roy-FD8102.00070027122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqtGUv2TtRye31q0u5p7NhgO5=Lh4HpHq+PSbArJ_A4yQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> In article <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759 at fx11.iad>,
>  Travis McGee <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try
>> something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now,
>> everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I
>> find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2
>> unless I explicitly specify Python 3.
>>
>> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package,
>> should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.
>
> The future is indeed Python 3.  The problem with the future is that it's
> not here yet.

Or to be more precise, is not exclusively here yet. The past is Python
2; the future is Python 3. The present is both Pythons, running in
parallel; if you're lucky, that's 2.7 and the latest 3.x, though not
everyone has that luxury.

For new code, aim for Python 3 unless you have a good reason to go for
Python 2. Most Linux distributions come with Python 2 under the name
"python", and Python 3 under the name "python3"; stick with that and
you'll be fairly safe. Or, if you can depend on your users having a
recent Py3 installed, you can use the launcher packaged with 3.3 and
later, which can intelligently figure out versioning.

ChrisA


From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:20:18 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:20:18 -0600
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
Message-ID: <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>

On 2013.12.26 23:04, Travis McGee wrote:
> The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try 
> something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now, 
> everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I 
> find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2 
> unless I explicitly specify Python 3.
> 
> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package, 
> should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.
> 
Oh boy, another 2 vs. 3 thread!

Always use 3 unless you absolutely have to use 2. Python 3 is not a shiny new thing. It is *five* years old at this point and is soon to
have its *fifth* significant release. Python 2.6 is EOL, and there will not be a 2.8.
However, people have stayed with Python 2 for various reasons, and unfortunately, many of those people haven't even made an effort to
migrate until the last year or so.
Most of the major third-party libraries these days are either 3.x compatible or have 3.x-compatible replacements, though.

-- 
CPython 3.3.3 | Windows NT 6.2.9200 / FreeBSD 10.0


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:43:23 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:13:23 +0530
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013.12.26 23:04, Travis McGee wrote:
>> The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try
>> something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now,
>> everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I
>> find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2
>> unless I explicitly specify Python 3.
>>
>> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package,
>> should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.
>>
> Oh boy, another 2 vs. 3 thread!

I believe that this is separable into at least two questions:

1. Whats the deal about 2 and 3, as in where on the
past-present-future do these sit

2. How to write software that is 2+3 compatible

As for 1 its the much heat little light kind of discussion. I'll leave
others to warm themselves and the planet

As for 2 maybe we need a wiki page. (Or do we have one already?)
Heres my largely ignoramus attempt at starting that:

1. print: Use print with (). Dont use funny 2 syntax
2. Always write strings with a u" prefix
3. Always use new style classes
4. Always use relative imports with explicit relative (ie use .)


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 01:00:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 17:00:39 +1100
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr2591R0xZUB_stUESuR3BxWjZZgmSnGfF_iBZqENiH2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:43 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. print: Use print with (). Dont use funny 2 syntax
> 2. Always write strings with a u" prefix
> 3. Always use new style classes
> 4. Always use relative imports with explicit relative (ie use .)

Even easier:

1. from __future__ import print_function
2. from __future__ import unicode_literals
(3 and 4 as per your above)

For anything 2.6 or newer, those two will give Py3 behaviour, at least
in those two ways. Saves you having to put the explicit u prefix on
everything.

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 01:23:15 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:23:15 -0800
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:50 AM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com> wrote:

> As for 2 maybe we need a wiki page. (Or do we have one already?)
> Heres my largely ignoramus attempt at starting that:
>
> 1. print: Use print with (). Dont use funny 2 syntax.
In fact, use parens with a single argument that may be a relatively
complex string % or .format expression.  Otherwise 2.x will think it's
being passed a tuple and display accordingly.

> 2. Always write strings with a u" prefix
3.0, 3.1 and 3.2 don't understand this, but 3.3 does.

In a project I wanted to run on 2.5, 2.6, 2.7, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3,
I dedicated a python module to most of my string constants, and
converted as needed using a pair of helper functions.  If Jython had
been available with 2.7 compatibility at the time, I would've ignored
2.5 and 2.6; now Jython has a 2.7 beta which is good enough for at
least some of my purposes.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 05:51:40 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 16:21:40 +0530
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeocrkFA0McQrL9=9-XCZ1KMDHryNCCA_Xv7cpyiGCPXAkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
>> 2. Always write strings with a u" prefix
> 3.0, 3.1 and 3.2 don't understand this, but 3.3 does.

Ok
I was writing this under the assumption that 2 is really entrenched
whereas 3.n is dispensable when 3.n+1 comes out
At least on my debian box 3.2 recently got obsoleted and removed when
3.3 came out.

>
> In a project I wanted to run on 2.5, 2.6, 2.7, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2 and 3.3,

Obviously my assumption may not always be 'assumable' eg sometime ago
there was someone who wanted to port his old working python app to 3.
2to3 was not working because he was using string exceptions (His code
was 1.something!!)


-- 

http://blog.languager.org


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 06:06:16 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:06:16 +1100
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeocrkFA0McQrL9=9-XCZ1KMDHryNCCA_Xv7cpyiGCPXAkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocrkFA0McQrL9=9-XCZ1KMDHryNCCA_Xv7cpyiGCPXAkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqLCiobNTYPHgAC-C=6a2GUMezth9o3sDdVEYuc-gir8w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
>>> 2. Always write strings with a u" prefix
>> 3.0, 3.1 and 3.2 don't understand this, but 3.3 does.
>
> Ok
> I was writing this under the assumption that 2 is really entrenched
> whereas 3.n is dispensable when 3.n+1 comes out
> At least on my debian box 3.2 recently got obsoleted and removed when
> 3.3 came out.

That's true except for the "comes out" part. Just because python.org
has released a newer 3.x Python doesn't mean everyone has it; Debian
Wheezy (the current stable) ships with 3.2, and Debian Squeeze (the
current oldstable, still supported and will be until some time 2014
probably) ships 3.1. So for scripts that need to be deployed onto one
of the most popular Linux distributions, supporting only 3.3 is pretty
much out of the question. And Red Hat, generally, is supported for
even longer. I don't know what Python versions are going to still be
around for the next ten years, but the easiest way to check would
probably be to see what RHEL support dates and Python versions are.

However, I do broadly agree. For controlled environments, you should
be able to slide from 3.1 to 3.2 to 3.3 to 3.4 on whatever schedule
you choose, and happily drop support for the older versions. But in
less controlled environments, that's a bit harder.

Probably within the next 5 years, it'll become reasonably plausible to
support nothing older than 2.6, and then all those 3.x compatibility
__future__s will be all you need. Well, most of what you need. There
are still fundamental issues with functions not taking Unicode
strings, but that's going to be a problem whatever you do. But life'll
be a lot easier.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Fri Dec 27 06:34:26 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:34:26 +1100
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocrkFA0McQrL9=9-XCZ1KMDHryNCCA_Xv7cpyiGCPXAkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4661.1388142386.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52bd65c3$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Chris Angelico wrote:

> However, I do broadly agree. For controlled environments, you should
> be able to slide from 3.1 to 3.2 to 3.3 to 3.4 on whatever schedule
> you choose, and happily drop support for the older versions. But in
> less controlled environments, that's a bit harder.
> 
> Probably within the next 5 years, it'll become reasonably plausible to
> support nothing older than 2.6, 

It's already reasonable to support nothing older than 2.6, or 2.7 for that
matter.

The *first* question you have to ask is, which third-party libraries do I
rely on? Those libraries will set the minimum system requirement. Beyond
that, you have total freedom to support as many or as few versions as you
like. Ask yourself:

- Which operating systems do I intend to support?

If the answer is "Windows only", you pretty much can pick whichever version
of Python you like, since all versions of Python are equally difficult (or
easy) to install on Windows. Likewise for Mac.

If the answer includes Linux or Unix, then the next question to ask is:

- Shall I support only the OS-provided version(s) of Python?

If so, then you need to work out which version(s) of Python are common to
all the OSes you intend to support. E.g. there are currently supported
versions of Centos and RHEL that provide Python 2.4. If you intend to
support those versions of Centos and RHEL, then you need to support Python
2.4. If you are prepared to drop support for such systems, then you can
drop support for 2.4 and move on to 2.5 or 2.6. It depends on how much
extra effort you wish to go to in order to support what percentage of your
users. Personally, I find it very annoying when vendors expect you to
upgrade perfectly adequate, still supported systems, and so I try to target
2.4+ when I can. (Also, I am still running a Centos system with 2.4, so I'm
scratching my own itch.)

On the other hand, I once tried to target Python 2.3+. That decision lasted
about two days. The amount of functionality missing from 2.3 compared to
2.4 makes it too painful.

Alternatively, if you don't care about the OS-provided Python (perhaps
you're providing your own, or you expect your users to install from
source), then I think it is acceptable to target 2.7 and 3.3 or better
(e.g. drop support for 3.1 and 3.2). 3.0 is not supported at all -- it was
a buggy release and was quickly dropped for 3.1. If you're not constrained
by "yum python3" or "apt-get python3", then 3.3 is probably the version you
should aim for.


-- 
Steven



From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 06:46:04 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 22:46:04 +1100
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <52bd65c3$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad> <52BD0E12.3040108@gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocpeU2d4R-uNrzCyt1B6w55gbdsyenJBp3SaUgpefBL7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_rfjwcGxNqeMLfPT1AkXNORNgCY-DDu4sr-EOQBSS2fKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ+TeocrkFA0McQrL9=9-XCZ1KMDHryNCCA_Xv7cpyiGCPXAkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4661.1388142386.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52bd65c3$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpFAJKmJGBrDCpjLHUZUf0ZKLC-QG1VBWACCrqteH-q0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:34 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> Alternatively, if you don't care about the OS-provided Python (perhaps
> you're providing your own, or you expect your users to install from
> source), then I think it is acceptable to target 2.7 and 3.3 or better
> (e.g. drop support for 3.1 and 3.2). 3.0 is not supported at all -- it was
> a buggy release and was quickly dropped for 3.1. If you're not constrained
> by "yum python3" or "apt-get python3", then 3.3 is probably the version you
> should aim for.

That's about the size of it. I'm quite happy to work with a 3.4 alpha,
but when it comes to installation instructions, "get this and compile
it" is a lot less helpful than "install python3 via your OS package
manager" (especially since compiling Python from source also means
getting the development versions of whatever modules you need -
apt-getting a bunch of -dev packages, or whatever - and if you don't
get them, some modules mightn't work even though core Python does).
Hence I'd like to stick to OS-provided versions *where reasonable* -
I'm not going to warp my code around Python 2.4 unless there's a large
slab of users on that, but I will restrict myself to Pike 7.8.700
because it's worth the effort.

ChrisA


From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 00:29:40 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 21:29:40 -0800
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_p_DE7OxOCm=SkULkr0gB_abmNSqzkW+6P=E0ptpW0XXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:04 PM, Travis McGee <nobody at nowhere.com> wrote:
> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package, should
> it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.

3.x alone isn't a bad option, but it doesn't really have to be an
either-or decision.  That is, even pretty substantial code bases can
run on both, without any 2to3 or 3to2.

Personally, I'd think very carefully before committing to a dependency
that's still 2.x-only today.

EG, when I was looking for a 3.x version of pygtk, it turned out that
pygtk was being replaced by something called "gobject", which runs on
both 2.x and 3.x.  I happily made my pygtk scripts use gobject, and
now they're portable between 2.x and 3.x - there was even a script
provided that made most of the changes for me.

Here's a link to a presentation I did at my local Python User Group
about writing code to run on both 2.x and 3.x:
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~dstromberg/Intro-to-Python/

HTH


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Fri Dec 27 07:13:44 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 07:13:44 -0500
Subject: So, what's the real story on Python 2 vs Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
References: <XT7vu.64127$Qi4.25759@fx11.iad>
Message-ID: <l9jqtc$d3$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/27/13 12:04 AM, Travis McGee wrote:
> The Python.org site says that the future is Python 3, yet whenever I try
> something new in Python, such as Tkinter which I am learning now,
> everything seems to default to Python 2. By this I mean that, whenever I
> find that I need to install another package, it shows up as Python 2
> unless I explicitly specify Python 3.
>
> What's the deal? If I want to make a distributable software package,
> should it be 2 or 3? Enquiring minds want to know.

Choosing between 2 and 3 should be done the same way any version 
decision is made: examine all of your dependencies (libraries, help 
online, skilled helpers available, hosting options, books, etc), then 
choose the highest version that supports them.  Some people still find 
that the answer is 2, but many are finding that it is now 3.  There's a 
lot of FUD about Python 3, don't listen to it.

Certainly don't be thrown by the "default" of 2.  It doesn't matter what 
most people do, or how your operating system is configured, what matters 
is whether you have what you need.

Note that on sensible operating systems, "python" will continue to mean 
Python 2, and "python3" will mean Python 3.  This will help perpetuate 
the notion that Python 3 is the outlier, but it's the only way to keep 
software working properly.  Don't let it color your perceptions.

If you are going to support both 2 and 3, in addition to the other good 
suggestions in this thread, the six module on PyPI can help with the 
differences.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From pierre.quentel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 01:14:35 2013
From: pierre.quentel at gmail.com (Pierre Quentel)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:14:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
Message-ID: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>

Hi,

Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an interface with DOM elements and events

Its use is very simple :
- load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
- embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
- run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">

The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly

Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation and many examples

After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment

Home page : http://www.brython.info
Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython


From roy at panix.com  Fri Dec 27 09:37:39 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 09:37:39 -0500
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <roy-216684.09373927122013@news.panix.com>

In article <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec at googlegroups.com>,
 Pierre Quentel <pierre.quentel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? 
> Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an 
> interface with DOM elements and events
> 
> Its use is very simple :
> - load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
> - embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
> - run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">
> 
> The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly
> 
> Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make 
> the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript 
> libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation 
> and many examples
> 
> After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 
> syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution 
> unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at 
> covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment
> 
> Home page : http://www.brython.info
> Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
> Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
> Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython

Wow.

Just wow.


From jonas.thornvall at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 09:56:33 2013
From: jonas.thornvall at gmail.com (jonas.thornvall at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 06:56:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
In-Reply-To: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <ebb801e9-903c-471d-ad86-f958e35e2570@googlegroups.com>

Den fredagen den 27:e december 2013 kl. 07:14:35 UTC+1 skrev Pierre Quentel:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 
> Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an interface with DOM elements and events
> 
> 
> 
> Its use is very simple :
> 
> - load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
> 
> - embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
> 
> - run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">
> 
> 
> 
> The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly
> 
> 
> 
> Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation and many examples
> 
> 
> 
> After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment
> 
> 
> 
> Home page : http://www.brython.info
> 
> Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
> 
> Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
> 
> Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython

I am not sure i understand the concept correct it is not serverside, i have to install the libraries on my local computer, and it is accessible via javascript, not on its own in browsers?

In the future will it always be a library that has to be downloaded and installed?

Could in not be implemented like an activeX plugin as flashplayer, when you come to a Brython side you have a message to download plugin?

If i understand correct, now one can implement Brython script in JAVASCRIPT invoked HTML on a server, but it will not work for people surfing the web because the browsers lack support for Brython libraries?

Is Brython thought to be a webapplication or can it read/write to files?
So what is its future?

1. A standard incorporated and implemented by browsers?
2. A plugin like flashplayer?
3. A standalone library to be downloaded and installed on the local computer to run python scripts one make?


From pierre.quentel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 12:54:03 2013
From: pierre.quentel at gmail.com (Pierre Quentel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 09:54:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
In-Reply-To: <ebb801e9-903c-471d-ad86-f958e35e2570@googlegroups.com>
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
 <ebb801e9-903c-471d-ad86-f958e35e2570@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <d86d51b1-f79a-4ab9-bfde-dc237fecb83b@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 27 d?cembre 2013 15:56:33 UTC+1, jonas.t... at gmail.com a ?crit?:
> Den fredagen den 27:e december 2013 kl. 07:14:35 UTC+1 skrev Pierre Quentel:
> 
> > Hi,
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an interface with DOM elements and events
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Its use is very simple :
> 
> > 
> 
> > - load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
> 
> > 
> 
> > - embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
> 
> > 
> 
> > - run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation and many examples
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Home page : http://www.brython.info
> 
> > 
> 
> > Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
> 
> > 
> 
> > Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
> 
> > 
> 
> > Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure i understand the concept correct it is not serverside, i have to install the libraries on my local computer, and it is accessible via javascript, not on its own in browsers?
> 
> 
> 
> In the future will it always be a library that has to be downloaded and installed?
> 
> 
> 
> Could in not be implemented like an activeX plugin as flashplayer, when you come to a Brython side you have a message to download plugin?
> 
> 
> 
> If i understand correct, now one can implement Brython script in JAVASCRIPT invoked HTML on a server, but it will not work for people surfing the web because the browsers lack support for Brython libraries?
> 
> 
> 
> Is Brython thought to be a webapplication or can it read/write to files?
> 
> So what is its future?
> 
> 
> 
> 1. A standard incorporated and implemented by browsers?
> 
> 2. A plugin like flashplayer?
> 
> 3. A standalone library to be downloaded and installed on the local computer to run python scripts one make?

Brython is made for client-side web programming, ie programs executing in a web browser. To be able to use it, all there is to do is upload the Brython distribution on the same server as the HTML pages

Since it is written in standard Javascript, it is designed to be cross-browser ; it is tested on Chrome and Firefox, and is known to work with a few limitations on IE10


From johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de  Fri Dec 27 11:12:09 2013
From: johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de (Johannes Schneider)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 17:12:09 +0100
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
In-Reply-To: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52BDA6D9.5080705@galileo-press.de>

On 27.12.2013 07:14, Pierre Quentel wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an interface with DOM elements and events
>
> Its use is very simple :
> - load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
> - embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
> - run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">
>
> The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly
>
> Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation and many examples
>
> After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment
>
> Home page : http://www.brython.info
> Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
> Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
> Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython
>

that's amazing.
is there any python construct which is not usable with brython? OR, the 
oder way around, anything possible in JS, which does not work in brython?

bg,
Johannes



-- 
Johannes Schneider
Webentwicklung
johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de
Tel.: +49.228.42150.xxx

Galileo Press GmbH
Rheinwerkallee 4 - 53227 Bonn - Germany
Tel.: +49.228.42.150.0 (Zentrale) .77 (Fax)
http://www.galileo-press.de/

Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Tomas Wehren, Ralf Kaulisch, Rainer Kaltenecker
HRB 8363 Amtsgericht Bonn


From pierre.quentel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 13:01:53 2013
From: pierre.quentel at gmail.com (Pierre Quentel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:01:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4670.1388161804.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4670.1388161804.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8d69f6b4-f9d2-485a-bff1-f58d2befed33@googlegroups.com>

Le vendredi 27 d?cembre 2013 17:12:09 UTC+1, Johannes Schneider a ?crit?:
> On 27.12.2013 07:14, Pierre Quentel wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> 
> >
> 
> > Ever wanted to use Python instead of Javascript for web client programming ? Take a look at Brython, an implementation of Python 3 in the browser, with an interface with DOM elements and events
> 
> >
> 
> > Its use is very simple :
> 
> > - load the Javascript library brython.js : <script src="/path/to/brython.js">
> 
> > - embed Python code inside a tag <script type="text/python">
> 
> > - run the Python script on page load : <body onload="brython()">
> 
> >
> 
> > The Python code is translated into Javascript and executed on the fly
> 
> >
> 
> > Brython supports the DOM API, HTML5, SVG, with some syntaxic sugar to make the interface more concise (a la jQuery) ; interaction with Javascript libraries is very straightforward. The Brython site provides documentation and many examples
> 
> >
> 
> > After 1 year of intense development, Brython now covers most of the Python3 syntax and can run most of the modules of the Python3.3 standard distribution unmodified, including complex packages like unittest. The team aims at covering 100% of all of Python that makes sense in a browser environment
> 
> >
> 
> > Home page : http://www.brython.info
> 
> > Development site : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/src
> 
> > Downloads : https://bitbucket.org/olemis/brython/downloads
> 
> > Community : https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!forum/brython
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> that's amazing.
> 
> is there any python construct which is not usable with brython? OR, the 
> 
> oder way around, anything possible in JS, which does not work in brython?
> 
> 
> 
> bg,
> 
> Johannes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Johannes Schneider
> 
> Webentwicklung
> 
> johannes.schneider at galileo-press.de
> 
> Tel.: +49.228.42150.xxx
> 
> 
> 
> Galileo Press GmbH
> 
> Rheinwerkallee 4 - 53227 Bonn - Germany
> 
> Tel.: +49.228.42.150.0 (Zentrale) .77 (Fax)
> 
> http://www.galileo-press.de/
> 
> 
> 
> Gesch???ftsf???hrer: Tomas Wehren, Ralf Kaulisch, Rainer Kaltenecker
> 
> HRB 8363 Amtsgericht Bonn

The documentation maintains a list of Python features that are not supported yet. For most of them, it's just a question of time and work by the development team

The only thing that is difficult to implement correctly is generators, since only few Javascript engines support "yield". Brython implementation is not perfect, but for the moment it doesn't break any of the modules in the standard distribution that have been included



From billy.earney at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 14:02:08 2013
From: billy.earney at gmail.com (billy.earney at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:02:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Brython (Python in the browser)
In-Reply-To: <8d69f6b4-f9d2-485a-bff1-f58d2befed33@googlegroups.com>
References: <234a1a8d-e491-4eec-8bd5-7931cf4f74ec@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.4670.1388161804.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <8d69f6b4-f9d2-485a-bff1-f58d2befed33@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <16452b42-ef22-4009-bdf5-dfe75c01ef0a@googlegroups.com>

Awesome..  Wonderful work!


From t.giuseppe at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 07:55:00 2013
From: t.giuseppe at gmail.com (t.giuseppe at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 04:55:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: String Template
Message-ID: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>

Hello

I'm rewriting a program previously written in C #, and trying to keep the same configuration file, I have a problem with untapped strings.

The previous configuration files provide an input template string of this type:

<input> <![CDATA [{ip} - [{date}] "HTTP/1.1 GET {url}" {?} {?} "{referer}" "{useragent}"]]></ input>


This string is parsed and the values are replaced with the actual values written to a log file (apache), then he is given the variable name.

Taking for example a classic line of apache log:

0.0.0.0 - [27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100] "GET / webdav / HTTP/1.1" 404 524 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows, U, Windows NT 5.1, en-US , rv: 1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101026 Firefox/3.6.12 "

Is there any way to pull out the values so arranged as follows:

ip = 0.0.0.0
date = 27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100
url = / webdav /

Tnx


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 08:47:03 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 00:47:03 +1100
Subject: String Template
In-Reply-To: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp61cnPF_uQpmLLQqiHNWN_BSrx+Wh-ZoXUTsWMOqgsRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 11:55 PM,  <t.giuseppe at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm rewriting a program previously written in C #, and trying to keep the same configuration file, I have a problem with untapped strings.

Not sure what you mean by "untapped" here?

> Taking for example a classic line of apache log:
>
> 0.0.0.0 - [27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100] "GET / webdav / HTTP/1.1" 404 524 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows, U, Windows NT 5.1, en-US , rv: 1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101026 Firefox/3.6.12 "
>
> Is there any way to pull out the values so arranged as follows:
>
> ip = 0.0.0.0
> date = 27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100
> url = / webdav /
>

(Aside: Do you really have spaces in your URLs? That seems odd.)

One common way to implement this sort of thing is with a regular
expression. You can either derive a regex from your config file, or
have users directly manage the regex.

For the specific case of parsing the Apache common log format, there's
plenty of material around. This page [1] has a tidy regex that'll do
the job, and this module [2] purports to create a parser by reading
the configuration line that creates it. I don't know anything about
either, save that they came up in a Google search for 'python apache
common log', along with a whole lot of other decent-looking results.

But for a more general solution - supposing you have piles and piles
of those parser strings - I'd be inclined to write a preparser that
reads your config file and derives regex patterns. It needs to figure
out what's a placeholder and what's literal text, then escape the
literal text (if there are regex metacharacters in it) and come up
with some sort of capturing sequence for the placeholder. I don't know
what you'd want there; possibly (.*?) will be the best (that means
"capture any number of characters, as few as possible"). But you know
your data far better than I do.

ChrisA

[1] http://www.seehuhn.de/blog/52
[2] https://pypi.python.org/pypi/apachelog/1.0


From t.giuseppe at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 07:33:20 2013
From: t.giuseppe at gmail.com (Giuseppe Tripoli)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 04:33:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: String Template
In-Reply-To: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <02fe1d86-738e-49d5-88c6-adbe9b083437@googlegroups.com>

The problem is that I have a huge amount of log apache, log Akami, log cotendo, log iis ... messily all together.

And the program does is that, according to the file name, use the configuration file to read.
Certainly the quickest and easiest method is to use the regex, but I did not really intend to change the configuration file.

I think I will change technique.

Thank you very much for your answer


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 10:15:51 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:15:51 +1100
Subject: String Template
In-Reply-To: <02fe1d86-738e-49d5-88c6-adbe9b083437@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
 <02fe1d86-738e-49d5-88c6-adbe9b083437@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqAYjZo0XZWANjUOTgObEzXXjO+CKvLU1nCBFLmymeONQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Giuseppe Tripoli <t.giuseppe at gmail.com> wrote:
> Certainly the quickest and easiest method is to use the regex, but I did not really intend to change the configuration file.

Then all you need is a way to convert your config file string into a
regex, which shouldn't be too difficult. Try the translation I
described in the earlier post; it might be all you need.

ChrisA


From yellowcitizen23 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 16:11:34 2013
From: yellowcitizen23 at gmail.com (Cristiano Araujo)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:11:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: String Template
In-Reply-To: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef46aaaa-3a03-4f96-8cad-0997c86294da@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <17999c6f-dcae-46d1-bd22-612ca14bc4ac@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, December 27, 2013 9:55:00 AM UTC-3, Giuseppe Tripoli wrote:
> Hello
> 
> 
> 
> I'm rewriting a program previously written in C #, and trying to keep the same configuration file, I have a problem with untapped strings.
> 
> 
> 
> The previous configuration files provide an input template string of this type:
> 
> 
> 
> <input> <![CDATA [{ip} - [{date}] "HTTP/1.1 GET {url}" {?} {?} "{referer}" "{useragent}"]]></ input>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This string is parsed and the values are replaced with the actual values written to a log file (apache), then he is given the variable name.
> 
> 
> 
> Taking for example a classic line of apache log:
> 
> 
> 
> 0.0.0.0 - [27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100] "GET / webdav / HTTP/1.1" 404 524 "-" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows, U, Windows NT 5.1, en-US , rv: 1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101026 Firefox/3.6.12 "
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any way to pull out the values so arranged as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> ip = 0.0.0.0
> 
> date = 27/Dec/2013: 00:56:51 +0100
> 
> url = / webdav /
> 
> 
> 
> Tnx

maybe it can be helpful: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12544510/parsing-apache-log-files


From nobody at nowhere.com  Fri Dec 27 10:31:15 2013
From: nobody at nowhere.com (Travis McGee)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 10:31:15 -0500
Subject: Python in the news
Message-ID: <63hvu.21921$VG.20858@fx12.iad>

 From Twitter:

RT @cjbrummitt Python kills security guard at Sanur Hyatt, Bali (Ind). 
bit.ly/1fLCWvn < bad coding has CONSEQUENCES, ppl!


From larry.martell at gmail.com  Fri Dec 27 15:08:51 2013
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 15:08:51 -0500
Subject: Python in the news
In-Reply-To: <63hvu.21921$VG.20858@fx12.iad>
References: <63hvu.21921$VG.20858@fx12.iad>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY6eiNQZFd05dwzcBe_b+F6gDGHxTOcLFSDz4MfyzHgqeQ@mail.gmail.com>

John D. MacDonald fan?

On Friday, December 27, 2013, Travis McGee wrote:

> From Twitter:
>
> RT @cjbrummitt Python kills security guard at Sanur Hyatt, Bali (Ind).
> bit.ly/1fLCWvn < bad coding has CONSEQUENCES, ppl!
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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From zhao_yunsong at 163.com  Fri Dec 27 13:54:09 2013
From: zhao_yunsong at 163.com (zhaoyunsong)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 02:54:09 +0800 (CST)
Subject: eclipse+pyDev code complete problem
Message-ID: <77e45425.10d4c.1433568124a.Coremail.zhao_yunsong@163.com>

dear all,
I am trying to configure eclipse + pydev as my ide, but there seems to be some problem on code complete.
the attached is the case when code complete does not work. any suggestions? Thanks!


my system is win 64bit
pyhon 3.3 64bit
eclipse kepler-SR1
pydev 3.1
I downloaded pillow from this website:http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/


Yunsong Zhao
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From fabiofz at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 11:07:18 2013
From: fabiofz at gmail.com (Fabio Zadrozny)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 14:07:18 -0200
Subject: eclipse+pyDev code complete problem
In-Reply-To: <77e45425.10d4c.1433568124a.Coremail.zhao_yunsong@163.com>
References: <77e45425.10d4c.1433568124a.Coremail.zhao_yunsong@163.com>
Message-ID: <CANXBEFrKPv9TnwmeFsKpVQHiva=5EGdVbcx=-rjSrh+kQaU0qw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

Please create an issue in the PyDev tracker for that:
https://sw-brainwy.rhcloud.com/tracker/PyDev/

Cheers,

Fabio


On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:54 PM, zhaoyunsong <zhao_yunsong at 163.com> wrote:

> dear all,
> I am trying to configure eclipse + pydev as my ide, but there seems to be
> some problem on code complete.
> the attached is the case when code complete does not work. any
> suggestions? Thanks!
>
> my system is win 64bit
> pyhon 3.3 64bit
> eclipse kepler-SR1
> pydev 3.1
> I downloaded pillow from this website:
> http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/
>
> Yunsong Zhao
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
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From vbfvf6 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 16:43:50 2013
From: vbfvf6 at gmail.com (vbfvf6 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 13:43:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NOW Watch Hot Sexy Star Aishwarya rai Bathing Videos In All Angles
In-Reply-To: <7c5a0d86-a2b1-49f9-9a59-7ede97cedc7d@p3g2000pra.googlegroups.com>
References: <7c5a0d86-a2b1-49f9-9a59-7ede97cedc7d@p3g2000pra.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2c77b08d-66dc-4822-bd86-37ff8649ec6d@googlegroups.com>

Sexys


From burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr  Sat Dec 28 17:13:56 2013
From: burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr (Burak Arslan)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 00:13:56 +0200
Subject: outsmarting context managers with coroutines
Message-ID: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr>

Hi,

Have a look at the following code snippets:
https://gist.github.com/plq/8164035

Observations:

output2: I can break out of outer context without closing the inner one
in Python 2
output3: Breaking out of outer context closes the inner one, but the
closing order is wrong.
output3-yf: With yield from, the closing order is fine but yield returns
None before throwing.

All of the above seem buggy in their own way. And actually, Python 2
seems to leak memory when generators and context managers are used this way.

Are these behaviours intentional? How much of it is
implementation-dependent? Are they documented somewhere? Neither PEP-342
nor PEP-380 talk about context managers and PEP-343 talks about
generators but not coroutines.

My humble opinion:

1) All three should behave in the exact same way.
2) Throwing into a generator should not yield None before throwing.

Best,
Burak

ps: I have:

$ python -V; python3 -V
Python 2.7.5
Python 3.3.2


From burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr  Sat Dec 28 19:35:07 2013
From: burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr (Burak Arslan)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:35:07 +0200
Subject: outsmarting context managers with coroutines
In-Reply-To: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr>
References: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr>
Message-ID: <52BF6E3B.7080501@arskom.com.tr>

On 12/29/13 00:13, Burak Arslan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Have a look at the following code snippets:
> https://gist.github.com/plq/8164035
>
> Observations:
>
> output2: I can break out of outer context without closing the inner one
> in Python 2
> output3: Breaking out of outer context closes the inner one, but the
> closing order is wrong.
> output3-yf: With yield from, the closing order is fine but yield returns
> None before throwing.

It doesn't, my mistake. Python 3 yield from case does the right thing, I
updated the gist. The other two cases still seem weird to me though. I
also added a possible fix for python 2 behaviour in a separate script,
though I'm not sure that the best way of implementing poor man's yield from.

Sorry for the noise.

Best,
Burak

> All of the above seem buggy in their own way. And actually, Python 2
> seems to leak memory when generators and context managers are used this way.
>
> Are these behaviours intentional? How much of it is
> implementation-dependent? Are they documented somewhere? Neither PEP-342
> nor PEP-380 talk about context managers and PEP-343 talks about
> generators but not coroutines.
>
> My humble opinion:
>
> 1) All three should behave in the exact same way.
> 2) Throwing into a generator should not yield None before throwing.
>
> Best,
> Burak
>
> ps: I have:
>
> $ python -V; python3 -V
> Python 2.7.5
> Python 3.3.2



From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 00:06:37 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 22:06:37 -0700
Subject: outsmarting context managers with coroutines
In-Reply-To: <52BF6E3B.7080501@arskom.com.tr>
References: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr> <52BF6E3B.7080501@arskom.com.tr>
Message-ID: <CALwzidk4cXRAVrZN+U8znOUTcJ1Uy_3Z9x8Z5AveDdFdGpaJng@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burak Arslan
<burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr> wrote:
> On 12/29/13 00:13, Burak Arslan wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Have a look at the following code snippets:
>> https://gist.github.com/plq/8164035
>>
>> Observations:
>>
>> output2: I can break out of outer context without closing the inner one
>> in Python 2
>> output3: Breaking out of outer context closes the inner one, but the
>> closing order is wrong.
>> output3-yf: With yield from, the closing order is fine but yield returns
>> None before throwing.
>
> It doesn't, my mistake. Python 3 yield from case does the right thing, I
> updated the gist. The other two cases still seem weird to me though. I
> also added a possible fix for python 2 behaviour in a separate script,
> though I'm not sure that the best way of implementing poor man's yield from.

I don't see any problems here.  The context managers in question are
created in separate coroutines and stored on separate stacks, so there
is no "inner" and "outer" context in the thread that you posted.  I
don't believe that they are guaranteed to be called in any particular
order in this case, nor do I think they should be.

For example, the first generator could yield the second generator back
to its caller and then exit, in which case the second generator would
still be active while the context manager in the first generator would
already have done its clean-up.  To assure that the context managers
exit in the order you suggest, the call to the first context manager's
exit would have to be deferred until the second context manager exits,
which could happen much later.  That would complicate the
implementation and does not fit very well with the cooperative
multi-tasking model.


From burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr  Sun Dec 29 09:44:16 2013
From: burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr (Burak Arslan)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 16:44:16 +0200
Subject: outsmarting context managers with coroutines
In-Reply-To: <CALwzidk4cXRAVrZN+U8znOUTcJ1Uy_3Z9x8Z5AveDdFdGpaJng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr> <52BF6E3B.7080501@arskom.com.tr>
 <CALwzidk4cXRAVrZN+U8znOUTcJ1Uy_3Z9x8Z5AveDdFdGpaJng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52C03540.1060609@arskom.com.tr>

On 12/29/13 07:06, Ian Kelly wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burak Arslan
> <burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr> wrote:
>> On 12/29/13 00:13, Burak Arslan wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Have a look at the following code snippets:
>>> https://gist.github.com/plq/8164035
>>>
>>> Observations:
>>>
>>> output2: I can break out of outer context without closing the inner one
>>> in Python 2
>>> output3: Breaking out of outer context closes the inner one, but the
>>> closing order is wrong.
>>> output3-yf: With yield from, the closing order is fine but yield returns
>>> None before throwing.
>> It doesn't, my mistake. Python 3 yield from case does the right thing, I
>> updated the gist. The other two cases still seem weird to me though. I
>> also added a possible fix for python 2 behaviour in a separate script,
>> though I'm not sure that the best way of implementing poor man's yield from.
> I don't see any problems here.  The context managers in question are
> created in separate coroutines and stored on separate stacks, so there
> is no "inner" and "outer" context in the thread that you posted.  I
> don't believe that they are guaranteed to be called in any particular
> order in this case, nor do I think they should be.

First, Python 2 and Python 3 are doing two separate things here: Python
2 doesn't destroy an orphaned generator and waits until the end of the
execution. The point of having raw_input at the end is to illustrate
this. I'm tempted to call this a memory leak bug, especially after
seeing that Python 3 doesn't behave the same way.

As for the destruction order, I don't agree that destruction order of
contexts should be arbitrary. Triggering the destruction of a suspended
stack should first make sure that any allocated objects get destroyed
*before* destroying the parent object. But then, I can think of all
sorts of reasons why this guarantee could be tricky to implement, so I
can live with this fact if it's properly documented. We should just use
'yield from' anyway.


> For example, the first generator could yield the second generator back
> to its caller and then exit, in which case the second generator would
> still be active while the context manager in the first generator would
> already have done its clean-up.

Sure, if you pass the inner generator back to the caller of the outer
one, the inner one should survive. The refcount of the inner is not zero
yet. That's doesn't have much to do with what I'm trying to illustrate
here though.

Best,
Burak


From ian.g.kelly at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 13:41:05 2013
From: ian.g.kelly at gmail.com (Ian Kelly)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:41:05 -0700
Subject: outsmarting context managers with coroutines
In-Reply-To: <52C03540.1060609@arskom.com.tr>
References: <52BF4D24.5070400@arskom.com.tr> <52BF6E3B.7080501@arskom.com.tr>
 <CALwzidk4cXRAVrZN+U8znOUTcJ1Uy_3Z9x8Z5AveDdFdGpaJng@mail.gmail.com>
 <52C03540.1060609@arskom.com.tr>
Message-ID: <CALwzidkP2ZJA17RU5LDU5PBs_s1kWd80ZvwSBCzREyUqA+QcEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 7:44 AM, Burak Arslan
<burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr> wrote:
> On 12/29/13 07:06, Ian Kelly wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 5:35 PM, Burak Arslan
>> <burak.arslan at arskom.com.tr> wrote:
>>> On 12/29/13 00:13, Burak Arslan wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Have a look at the following code snippets:
>>>> https://gist.github.com/plq/8164035
>>>>
>>>> Observations:
>>>>
>>>> output2: I can break out of outer context without closing the inner one
>>>> in Python 2
>>>> output3: Breaking out of outer context closes the inner one, but the
>>>> closing order is wrong.
>>>> output3-yf: With yield from, the closing order is fine but yield returns
>>>> None before throwing.
>>> It doesn't, my mistake. Python 3 yield from case does the right thing, I
>>> updated the gist. The other two cases still seem weird to me though. I
>>> also added a possible fix for python 2 behaviour in a separate script,
>>> though I'm not sure that the best way of implementing poor man's yield from.
>> I don't see any problems here.  The context managers in question are
>> created in separate coroutines and stored on separate stacks, so there
>> is no "inner" and "outer" context in the thread that you posted.  I
>> don't believe that they are guaranteed to be called in any particular
>> order in this case, nor do I think they should be.
>
> First, Python 2 and Python 3 are doing two separate things here: Python
> 2 doesn't destroy an orphaned generator and waits until the end of the
> execution. The point of having raw_input at the end is to illustrate
> this. I'm tempted to call this a memory leak bug, especially after
> seeing that Python 3 doesn't behave the same way.

Ah, you may be right.  I'm not sure what's going on with Python 2
here, and all my attempts to collect the inaccessible generator have
failed.  The only times it seems to clean up are when Python exits
and, strangely, when dropping to an interactive shell using the -i
command line option.  It also cleans up properly if the first
generator explicitly dels its reference to the second before exiting.
This doesn't have anything to do with the context manager though, as I
see the same behavior without it.

> As for the destruction order, I don't agree that destruction order of
> contexts should be arbitrary. Triggering the destruction of a suspended
> stack should first make sure that any allocated objects get destroyed
> *before* destroying the parent object. But then, I can think of all
> sorts of reasons why this guarantee could be tricky to implement, so I
> can live with this fact if it's properly documented. We should just use
> 'yield from' anyway.

You generally get this behavior when objects are deleted by the
reference counting mechanism, but that is an implementation detail of
CPython.  Since different implementations use different collection
schemes, there is no language guarantee of when or in what order
finalizers will be called, and even in CPython with the new PEP 442,
there is no guarantee of what order finalizers will be called when
garbage collecting reference cycles.

>> For example, the first generator could yield the second generator back
>> to its caller and then exit, in which case the second generator would
>> still be active while the context manager in the first generator would
>> already have done its clean-up.
>
> Sure, if you pass the inner generator back to the caller of the outer
> one, the inner one should survive. The refcount of the inner is not zero
> yet. That's doesn't have much to do with what I'm trying to illustrate
> here though.

The point I'm trying to make is that either context has the potential
to long outlive the other one, so you can't make any guarantee that
they will be exited in LIFO order.


From baladjy at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 18:11:03 2013
From: baladjy at gmail.com (Baladjy KICHENASSAMY)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 00:11:03 +0100
Subject: Python mange with liste
Message-ID: <CAKSfFmjhsQHQNdXgVcfoJvcSJJ-SZbUutkVQ9jzQHeBahRU5FQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello guys,
i need some help with is program

I have a txt file "test.txt" where there is Name;Sexe;Answer(Y or N)
example of txt file:
--------------------------------------
*nam1;F*;Y
nam2;M;N
nam3;F;Y
nam4;M;N
halo;M;Y
rock;M;N
nam1;F;N
_________________________________

so my program will ask the name, sexe, and answer and it will tell me if
the name exist or not

example i will enter
nam1;F;O

The program must tell me that *nam1 *with sexe *F* existe. (it must take in
count the answer)

------------------------------------------------
name = raw_input('name: ')
sexe = raw_input('sexe: ')
r1 = raw_input('r1 Y or N: ')
infos = name+";"+sexe+";"+r1

f=open("test.txt","r")
conten = f.read()
print conten
f.close()

 #f=open("test.txt","a")
#f.write(infos)
#f.write('\n')
 #f.close()
------------------------------------------------

thank you =)
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From baladjy at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 18:30:23 2013
From: baladjy at gmail.com (Bala Ji)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 15:30:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python mange with liste
Message-ID: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>

Hello guys,
i need some help with is program

I have a txt file "test.txt" where there is Name;Sexe;Answer(Y or N)
example of txt file:
--------------------------------------
nam1;F;Y
nam2;M;N
nam3;F;Y
nam4;M;N
halo;M;Y
rock;M;N
nam1;F;N
_________________________________

so my program will ask the name, sexe, and answer and it will tell me if the name exist or not

example i will enter
nam1;F;O

The program must tell me that nam1 with sexe F existe. (it must take in count the answer)

------------------------------------------------
name = raw_input('name: ')
sexe = raw_input('sexe: ')
r1 = raw_input('r1 Y or N: ')
infos = name+";"+sexe+";"+r1

f=open("test.txt","r")
conten = f.read()
print conten
f.close()

	#f=open("test.txt","a")
	#f.write(infos)
	#f.write('\n')
	#f.close()
------------------------------------------------

thank you =)


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 22:08:46 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 08:38:46 +0530
Subject: Python mange with liste
In-Reply-To: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeofJVGKG2=BXFSnZ-jJaD709_oTwrwrKb7C9CA2ma+YfQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Bala Ji wrote:
> Hello guys,
> i need some help with is program
>
> I have a txt file "test.txt" where there is Name;Sexe;Answer(Y or N)
> example of txt file:
> --------------------------------------
> nam1;F;Y
> nam2;M;N
> nam3;F;Y
> nam4;M;N
> halo;M;Y
> rock;M;N
> nam1;F;N
> _________________________________
>
> so my program will ask the name, sexe, and answer and it will tell me if the name exist or not
>
> example i will enter
> nam1;F;O
>
> The program must tell me that nam1 with sexe F existe. (it must take in count the answer)
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> name = raw_input('name: ')
> sexe = raw_input('sexe: ')
> r1 = raw_input('r1 Y or N: ')
> infos = name+";"+sexe+";"+r1
>
> f=open("test.txt","r")
> conten = f.read()
> print conten
> f.close()
>
>         #f=open("test.txt","a")
>         #f.write(infos)
>         #f.write('\n')
>         #f.close()
> ------------------------------------------------

One general rule of programming is:
If you dont know how to solve a problem:
- solve a related simpler problem
- figure out how to convert your original problem into the simpler one


So heres a simpler problem to try:

Give up on file-IO, ie dont use the EXTERNAL file

nam1;F;Y
nam2;M;N
nam3;F;Y
nam4;M;N
halo;M;Y
rock;M;N
nam1;F;N

But ASSUME you have the internal python data structure
names = [("nam1", "F", "Y"), ("nam2", "M", "N")] # complete the list

Likewise if you wish, get rid of the raw_inputs and just ASSUME you
somehow have a tuple: a variable info of the form
(name, sex, r1) # whatever r1 is

Now:
1. solve your problem for the INTERNAL data structures:
    a. names which is a list
    b. info which is like an element of that list

Note: Observe how I sneakily made info look like the things in names

2. Convert your problem into the above by using suitable file-IO

3. If there is something in the above you dont understand -- whether
python or English -- write back here

Best
Rusi


-- 
http://blog.languager.org


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sat Dec 28 22:52:17 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 09:22:17 +0530
Subject: Python mange with liste
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeofJVGKG2=BXFSnZ-jJaD709_oTwrwrKb7C9CA2ma+YfQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
 <CAJ+TeofJVGKG2=BXFSnZ-jJaD709_oTwrwrKb7C9CA2ma+YfQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeodfQV6B5+4d_euNDDZTUQs-TLqQeQCzVOrTYF9OnYKi+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Give up on file-IO, ie dont use the EXTERNAL file
>
> nam1;F;Y
> nam2;M;N
> nam3;F;Y
> nam4;M;N
> halo;M;Y
> rock;M;N
> nam1;F;N
>
> But ASSUME you have the internal python data structure
> names = [("nam1", "F", "Y"), ("nam2", "M", "N")] # complete the list

Well it may be better to write that as
names = [("nam1", "F", True), ("nam2", "M", False), etc]

ie represent Y by boolean True rather than the string "Y" etc

though you could get bitten by the fact that python booleans are
strange in that True is True but all kinds of things are True-ish


From piet at vanoostrum.org  Sun Dec 29 05:01:26 2013
From: piet at vanoostrum.org (Piet van Oostrum)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:01:26 +0100
Subject: Python mange with liste
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <m2ob40yo09.fsf@cochabamba.vanoostrum.org>

Bala Ji <baladjy at gmail.com> writes:

> Hello guys,
> i need some help with is program
>
> I have a txt file "test.txt" where there is Name;Sexe;Answer(Y or N)
> example of txt file:
> --------------------------------------
> nam1;F;Y
> nam2;M;N
> nam3;F;Y
> nam4;M;N
> halo;M;Y
> rock;M;N
> nam1;F;N
> _________________________________
>
> so my program will ask the name, sexe, and answer and it will tell me if the name exist or not
>
> example i will enter
> nam1;F;O

What does the O mean here?
>
> The program must tell me that nam1 with sexe F existe. (it must take in count the answer)
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> name = raw_input('name: ')
> sexe = raw_input('sexe: ')
> r1 = raw_input('r1 Y or N: ')
> infos = name+";"+sexe+";"+r1
>
> f=open("test.txt","r")
> conten = f.read()
> print conten
> f.close()
>
> 	#f=open("test.txt","a")
> 	#f.write(infos)
> 	#f.write('\n')
> 	#f.close()
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> thank you =)

-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet at vanoostrum.org>
WWW: http://pietvanoostrum.com/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]


From baladjy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 05:18:01 2013
From: baladjy at gmail.com (Bala Ji)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:18:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python mange with liste
In-Reply-To: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <1b226b8c-6e9e-4bf6-a13e-8c2eb46e9d50@googlegroups.com>

Oh sorry it's a Y (in french it's O) sorry for the mistake


Le dimanche 29 d?cembre 2013 00:30:23 UTC+1, Bala Ji a ?crit?:
> Hello guys,
> 
> i need some help with is program
> 
> 
> 
> I have a txt file "test.txt" where there is Name;Sexe;Answer(Y or N)
> 
> example of txt file:
> 
> --------------------------------------
> 
> nam1;F;Y
> 
> nam2;M;N
> 
> nam3;F;Y
> 
> nam4;M;N
> 
> halo;M;Y
> 
> rock;M;N
> 
> nam1;F;N
> 
> _________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> so my program will ask the name, sexe, and answer and it will tell me if the name exist or not
> 
> 
> 
> example i will enter
> 
> nam1;F;O
> 
> 
> 
> The program must tell me that nam1 with sexe F existe. (it must take in count the answer)
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> name = raw_input('name: ')
> 
> sexe = raw_input('sexe: ')
> 
> r1 = raw_input('r1 Y or N: ')
> 
> infos = name+";"+sexe+";"+r1
> 
> 
> 
> f=open("test.txt","r")
> 
> conten = f.read()
> 
> print conten
> 
> f.close()
> 
> 
> 
> 	#f=open("test.txt","a")
> 
> 	#f.write(infos)
> 
> 	#f.write('\n')
> 
> 	#f.close()
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> thank you =)



From baladjy at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 05:19:17 2013
From: baladjy at gmail.com (Bala Ji)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 02:19:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Python mange with liste
In-Reply-To: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <11c1b4ef-07a3-4424-b356-9a9cf635f787@googlegroups.com>



hello,

thank you for your help

i wrote this:

x="nam1"
y="F"

names = [("nam1", "F", "Y"), ("nam2", "M", "N")]
l = len(names)
for i in range(0,l):
	print names[i][0]
	print names[i][1]
	if x == names[i][0] and y == names[i][1]:
		message = "right"
	else:
		message = "wrong"
	
print message


normally it must tell me "right" but it tells me "wrong"

best


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 05:47:00 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 16:17:00 +0530
Subject: Python mange with liste
In-Reply-To: <11c1b4ef-07a3-4424-b356-9a9cf635f787@googlegroups.com>
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
 <11c1b4ef-07a3-4424-b356-9a9cf635f787@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeodOXuB7brkjymSKfxM8k=vtJfkT+Ud1g6g9m8h5eBU42g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bala Ji <baladjy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> hello,
>
> thank you for your help
>
> i wrote this:
>
> x="nam1"
> y="F"
>
> names = [("nam1", "F", "Y"), ("nam2", "M", "N")]
> l = len(names)
> for i in range(0,l):
>         print names[i][0]
>         print names[i][1]
>         if x == names[i][0] and y == names[i][1]:
>                 message = "right"
>         else:
>                 message = "wrong"
>
> print message

Ok lets start with

1.

l = len(names)
for i in range(0,l): ... names[1] ...

Better to do in python as

for n in names: ... n ...
ie use n where you were using names[i]
no need for range, len, indexing etc etc

2.
You are setting (ie assigning) message each time round the loop
Try writing a function that does NO set (assign) NO print

Ok this time let me write it for you
So I write a function called foo, taking an argument called nn
>>> def foo(nn):
...   for n in names:
...     if n == nn: return True
...   return False
...

Note: No input, No output, No file IO and above all No assignment

>>> foo(("nam1","F","Y"))
True
>>> foo(("nam4","F","Y"))
False

Notice my foo takes an argument that is a triplet
You need to change foo to taking name and sex and ignoring the third element

Your homework -- Oui??


From frank at chagford.com  Sun Dec 29 06:02:18 2013
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:02:18 +0200
Subject: Python mange with liste
References: <259bae0c-84c8-4a75-a7cf-8724c735049b@googlegroups.com>
 <11c1b4ef-07a3-4424-b356-9a9cf635f787@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <l9oven$2ot$1@ger.gmane.org>


"Bala Ji" <baladjy at gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:11c1b4ef-07a3-4424-b356-9a9cf635f787 at googlegroups.com...
>
>
> hello,
>
> thank you for your help
>
> i wrote this:
>
> x="nam1"
> y="F"
>
> names = [("nam1", "F", "Y"), ("nam2", "M", "N")]
> l = len(names)
> for i in range(0,l):
>     print names[i][0]
>     print names[i][1]
>     if x == names[i][0] and y == names[i][1]:
>         message = "right"
>     else:
>         message = "wrong"
>
> print message
>
>
> normally it must tell me "right" but it tells me "wrong"
>
> best

Your problem is that, after you find a valid name, you continue looping, and 
then find an invalid name, so the message is over-written.

The usual way to terminate a loop without continuing to the next item is 
with the 'break' statement.

Here are three variations of your code, each with an improvement over the 
previous one -

1. This adds the break statement - it should do what you want -
l = len(names)
for i in range(0,l):
    print names[i][0]
    print names[i][1]
    if x == names[i][0] and y == names[i][1]:
        message = "right"
        break
    else:
        message = "wrong"

2. This uses a feature of python which specifies an action to be taken only 
if the loop continues to the end without interruption -
l = len(names)
for i in range(0,l):
    print names[i][0]
    print names[i][1]
    if x == names[i][0] and y == names[i][1]:
        message = "right"
        break
else:
    message = "wrong"

Note that the last two lines are indented to line up with the 'for ' 
statement. In the previous version, message is set to 'wrong' for every 
iteration of the loop until a valid name is found. In this version, it is 
only set to 'wrong' if no valid name is found.

3. This uses a feature of python which allows you to iterate over the 
contents of a list directly -
for name in names:
    print name[0]
    print name[1]
    if x == name[0] and y == name[1]:
        message = "right"
        break
else:
    message = "wrong"

Hope this gives you some ideas.

Frank Millman





From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Sat Dec 28 23:21:55 2013
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 04:21:55 +0000
Subject: Unit tests and coverage
Message-ID: <assp.00752b141e.d97b78a3832f4bb0ba7994f9f56a1eda@exch.activenetwerx.com>

I have a script that accepts cmdline arguments and receives input via stdin.
I have a unit test for it that uses Popen to setup an environment, pass the args
and provide the stdin.

Problem is obviously this does nothing for providing coverage. Given the above
specifics, anyone know of a way to work around this?

Thanks,
jlc


From roy at panix.com  Sat Dec 28 23:37:57 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 23:37:57 -0500
Subject: Unit tests and coverage
References: <mailman.4694.1388291001.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-AC6613.23375728122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4694.1388291001.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 "Joseph L. Casale" <jcasale at activenetwerx.com> wrote:

> I have a script that accepts cmdline arguments and receives input via stdin.
> I have a unit test for it that uses Popen to setup an environment, pass the 
> args and provide the stdin.
> 
> Problem is obviously this does nothing for providing coverage. Given the 
> above specifics, anyone know of a way to work around this?

What do you mean by "providing coverage"?  If you mean, "automatically 
generate every possible combination of inputs", that's not, in general, 
possible.

There are lots of different meanings people give to the word "coverage" 
when talking about testing code.  One common definition is, "provide 
sufficient sets of inputs to cause every branch in the code to be taken 
at least once".  That's a pretty weak definition (since it doesn't talk 
about combinations of branches), but even that can be amazingly hard to 
satisfy.  For example, imagine the following code:

try:
   big_hairy_operation()
except MemoryError:
   print "Oh noes, out of memory!"

what combination of inputs do you have to provide to cause the except 
clause to be executed?  Or, to touch on an example I mentioned in a 
recent thread:

t0 = time.time()
while True:
   t1 = time.time()
   if t1 < t0:
        print "Distortion detected in the time-space continuum"
    t0 = t1

So, back to my original question; what do you mean by "providing 
coverage"?


From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Sun Dec 29 00:09:45 2013
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 05:09:45 +0000
Subject: Unit tests and coverage
In-Reply-To: <roy-AC6613.23375728122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4694.1388291001.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-AC6613.23375728122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <assp.00757796a5.0d72932ee4e3430099e5f756cc6bc8c3@exch.activenetwerx.com>

> So, back to my original question; what do you mean by "providing
> coverage"?

Hi Roy,
I meant touch every line, such as what https://pypi.python.org/pypi/coverage
measures.

As the script is being invoked with Popen, I lose that luxury and only gain
the assertions tests but that of course doesn't show me untested branches.

Thanks,
jlc


From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Sun Dec 29 01:02:38 2013
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 06:02:38 +0000
Subject: Unit tests and coverage
In-Reply-To: <0d72932ee4e3430099e5f756cc6bc8c3@exch.activenetwerx.com>
References: <mailman.4694.1388291001.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-AC6613.23375728122013@news.panix.com>
 <0d72932ee4e3430099e5f756cc6bc8c3@exch.activenetwerx.com>
Message-ID: <assp.0075ba2bab.002e7d5bd4be4e9dbc4039879f489ac0@exch.activenetwerx.com>

> As the script is being invoked with Popen, I lose that luxury and only gain
> the assertions tests but that of course doesn't show me untested branches.

Should have read the docs more thoroughly, works quite nice.
jlc


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Sun Dec 29 09:07:34 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 09:07:34 -0500
Subject: Unit tests and coverage
In-Reply-To: <assp.00752b141e.d97b78a3832f4bb0ba7994f9f56a1eda@exch.activenetwerx.com>
References: <assp.00752b141e.d97b78a3832f4bb0ba7994f9f56a1eda@exch.activenetwerx.com>
Message-ID: <l9paap$7a1$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/28/13 11:21 PM, Joseph L. Casale wrote:
> I have a script that accepts cmdline arguments and receives input via stdin.
> I have a unit test for it that uses Popen to setup an environment, pass the args
> and provide the stdin.
>
> Problem is obviously this does nothing for providing coverage. Given the above
> specifics, anyone know of a way to work around this?
>
> Thanks,
> jlc
>

It sounds like you may have already found the coverage.py docs on 
measuring subprocesses.  Another approach is to refactor your code so 
that the bulk of it can be invoked without a subprocess, then test that 
code with simple function calls.  Those tests will be easy to measure 
with coverage.py, and by the way, they'll run much faster and be easier 
to debug.

-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From smilesonisamal at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 14:35:32 2013
From: smilesonisamal at gmail.com (smilesonisamal at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:35:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: abrt: detected unhandled Python exception
Message-ID: <0253dd5f-f8f3-45e7-84b0-92023c0924c9@googlegroups.com>

Hi all,
  I am facing a script issue whenever i run my script in /var/log/messages and it gives error something as below:


abrt: detected unhandled Python exception in xxxxx.py.

Can anybody help me figuring out how do i know which line number has thrown the python exception?

Regards
Pradeep


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 16:34:33 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:34:33 +1100
Subject: abrt: detected unhandled Python exception
In-Reply-To: <0253dd5f-f8f3-45e7-84b0-92023c0924c9@googlegroups.com>
References: <0253dd5f-f8f3-45e7-84b0-92023c0924c9@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpKdaaAsRBwLwWwNcBHtc+viyzhS1_+0GHf8=3wBCB7mQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 6:35 AM,  <smilesonisamal at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>   I am facing a script issue whenever i run my script in /var/log/messages and it gives error something as below:
>
>
> abrt: detected unhandled Python exception in xxxxx.py.
>
> Can anybody help me figuring out how do i know which line number has thrown the python exception?

Google results suggest that this is a Red Hat thing: abrt = Automatic
Bug Reporting Tool.

https://access.redhat.com/site/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/html/Deployment_Guide/ch-abrt.html

I'm not a Red Hat person myself (I use Debian), so I can't really much
help; but my suspicion is that it'll be logging the full traceback
somewhere (some of the posts I found referred to it sending mail, so
you might find it in your /var/spool/mail).

Alternatively, are you able to simply run the script from the command
line? That ought to make the traceback come to your console. Not
possible if it's a CGI script or something, though.

ChrisA


From mischamv at googlemail.com  Sun Dec 29 15:20:00 2013
From: mischamv at googlemail.com (Michael Matveev)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 12:20:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
Message-ID: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>

Hi,
I use live Debian on VM and trying to compile this code.


import Tkinter
 
root = Tkinter.Tk()
 
root.title("Fenster 1")
root.geometry("100x100")
 
root.mainloop()


The shell gives out that kind of message:

File "test.py", line 5, in <module>
root = Tkinter.Tk()
File "/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1712, in __init__
self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to display ":0"



thanks for helping out.

greets.
Mike


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 16:40:56 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:40:56 +1100
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
In-Reply-To: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqCtTJ4qzbt56Gzp-34AsjxCMTUCsHvypW2=fs4W9rDoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 7:20 AM, Michael Matveev
<mischamv at googlemail.com> wrote:
> The shell gives out that kind of message:
>
> File "test.py", line 5, in <module>
> root = Tkinter.Tk()
> File "/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1712, in __init__
> self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive, wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
> _tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to display ":0"

Worked for me on an installed Debian, inside Xfce with xfce4-terminal.

1) What version of Python are you running?
2) Are you running inside some kind of graphical environment?
3) Do you have any sort of permissions/environment change happening? I
get an error like that if I try "sudo python" without any sort of
guard.

ChrisA


From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 29 18:22:56 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:22:56 +1100
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Michael Matveev wrote:

> Hi,
> I use live Debian on VM and trying to compile this code.
> 
> 
> import Tkinter
>  
> root = Tkinter.Tk()
>  
> root.title("Fenster 1")
> root.geometry("100x100")
>  
> root.mainloop()
> 
> 
> The shell gives out that kind of message:
> 
> File "test.py", line 5, in <module>
> root = Tkinter.Tk()
> File "/usr/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1712, in __init__
> self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive,
> wantobjects, useTk, sync, use) _tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to
> display ":0"


Are you using ssh to connect to the system? If I create a file and run it
directly from the machine I am physically sitting at, it works fine and the
window is displayed as expected:

[steve at ando ~]$ cat test.py
import Tkinter
root = Tkinter.Tk()
root.title("Fenster 1")
root.geometry("100x100")
root.mainloop()
[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 test.py
[steve at ando ~]$


But if I ssh to the machine, I get an error (although a different error from
you):

steve at orac:~$ ssh ando
steve at ando's password:
Last login: Thu Dec 12 19:27:04 2013 from 203.7.155.68
[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 test.py
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test.py", line 2, in <module>
    root = Tkinter.Tk()
  File "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1685, in __init__
    self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive,
wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
_tkinter.TclError: no display name and no $DISPLAY environment variable


If I set the $DISPLAY environment variable, it works for me:

[steve at ando ~]$ export DISPLAY=":0"
[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 test.py
[steve at ando ~]$ logout
Connection to ando closed.

But ando is the machine I am physically seated at, so it's not surprising
that I can see the window on the X display. If I go the other way, and try
to run the code on orac (the remote machine), I get the same error as you:

steve at orac:~$ export DISPLAY=":0"
steve at orac:~$ python2.6 test.py
No protocol specified
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "test.py", line 2, in <module>
    root = Tkinter.Tk()
  File "/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 1646, in __init__
    self.tk = _tkinter.create(screenName, baseName, className, interactive,
wantobjects, useTk, sync, use)
_tkinter.TclError: couldn't connect to display ":0"


So you need to X-forward from the remote machine to the machine you are
physically on, or perhaps it's the other way (X is really weird). I have no
idea how to do that, but would love to know.



-- 
Steven



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 18:30:11 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:30:11 +1100
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
In-Reply-To: <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
 <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrP1Nrs2f7o+rsjFO50yn92YJ35_0tkbhYYWFu0Mju=rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> So you need to X-forward from the remote machine to the machine you are
> physically on, or perhaps it's the other way (X is really weird). I have no
> idea how to do that, but would love to know.

With SSH, that's usually just "ssh -X target", and it'll mostly work.
But there are potential issues with .Xauthority, which is why the sudo
example fails.

ChrisA


From steve at pearwood.info  Sun Dec 29 22:29:28 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 30 Dec 2013 03:29:28 GMT
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
 <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4709.1388359820.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52c0e898$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:30:11 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>> So you need to X-forward from the remote machine to the machine you are
>> physically on, or perhaps it's the other way (X is really weird). I
>> have no idea how to do that, but would love to know.
> 
> With SSH, that's usually just "ssh -X target", and it'll mostly work.

Holy cow, it works! Sloooooooowly, but works.


steve at runes:~$ ssh -X ando.pearwood.info
steve at ando.pearwood.info's password: 
Last login: Mon Dec 30 10:10:13 2013 from orac
[steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 test.py 
[steve at ando ~]$ 


-- 
Steven


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 23:11:10 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 15:11:10 +1100
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
In-Reply-To: <52c0e898$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
 <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4709.1388359820.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c0e898$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo8uaJ+GxFKR5aK6dL3bJxMrYKkFevP9+UBewtWtdPMmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:29 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:30:11 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> So you need to X-forward from the remote machine to the machine you are
>>> physically on, or perhaps it's the other way (X is really weird). I
>>> have no idea how to do that, but would love to know.
>>
>> With SSH, that's usually just "ssh -X target", and it'll mostly work.
>
> Holy cow, it works! Sloooooooowly, but works.
>
>
> steve at runes:~$ ssh -X ando.pearwood.info
> steve at ando.pearwood.info's password:
> Last login: Mon Dec 30 10:10:13 2013 from orac
> [steve at ando ~]$ python2.7 test.py
> [steve at ando ~]$

On a LAN, it's not even slow! I've actually run VLC through ssh -X and
watched a DVD that was in a different computer's drive. That was fun.

You can even get a Windows X server and run Linux GUI programs on a
Windows client. *Very* useful if you're working with both types of
computer.

ChrisA


From jason.swails at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 00:59:31 2013
From: jason.swails at gmail.com (Jason Swails)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 00:59:31 -0500
Subject: Tkinter problem: TclError> couldn't connect to display ":0
In-Reply-To: <52c0e898$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <b6e02836-6f08-4e9f-bd55-201c22ff42b3@googlegroups.com>
 <52c0aed1$0$29981$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4709.1388359820.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c0e898$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAEk9e3oHPAu8+8sMzCbtGnuKzQ5xeTHSL5-KGusmVKzHQ0PAvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info>wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 10:30:11 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> > <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:
> >> So you need to X-forward from the remote machine to the machine you are
> >> physically on, or perhaps it's the other way (X is really weird). I
> >> have no idea how to do that, but would love to know.
> >
> > With SSH, that's usually just "ssh -X target", and it'll mostly work.
>
> Holy cow, it works! Sloooooooowly, but works.
>

I usually use "ssh -Y".  The -Y argument toggles trusted forwarding.  From
the ssh man-page:

     -Y      Enables trusted X11 forwarding.  Trusted X11 forwardings are
not subjected to the X11
             SECURITY extension controls.

I've found -Y is a bit faster than -X in my experience (I've never really
had many problems with X-forwarding on LANs in my experience -- even with
OpenGL windows)
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From hussainc1969 at gmail.com  Sun Dec 29 16:06:37 2013
From: hussainc1969 at gmail.com (hussainc1969 at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:06:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sania Mirza Naked Pics at www.ZHAKKAS.com
In-Reply-To: <6e6bfa12-c064-44e9-8f9b-dabfb5df1b26@v35g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
References: <6e6bfa12-c064-44e9-8f9b-dabfb5df1b26@v35g2000pro.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f1b6dc02-c274-489e-973d-104284e87c11@googlegroups.com>



From hossamalagmy at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 08:53:53 2013
From: hossamalagmy at gmail.com (essd)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 05:53:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: =?windows-1256?B?3e3TIMjm3yAtIGZhY2Vib29r?=
Message-ID: <1dfec182-b33f-428a-8a6e-8c562f15d5f4@googlegroups.com>

??? ??? - facebook

https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A6%D8%AC-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%AA%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%AC%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B9%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%AA/299719160065550?ref=hl#


From fabiofz at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 08:16:03 2013
From: fabiofz at gmail.com (Fabio Zadrozny)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 11:16:03 -0200
Subject: PyDev 3.2.0 Released
Message-ID: <CANXBEFpcii-3GFFrhsoD0nocRqERJck4AX82a33aCKR+iegNuA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

PyDev 3.2.0 has been released

Details on PyDev: http://pydev.org

Details on its development: http://pydev.blogspot.com

LiClipse (PyDev standalone with goodies such as support for Django
Templates, Mako Templates, Html, Javascript, etc):
http://brainwy.github.io/liclipse/


Release Highlights:
-------------------------------

* **Important**: PyDev requires Eclipse 3.8 or 4.3 onwards and Java 7! For
older versions, keep using PyDev 2.x.

* **General**:

    * Added option to sort imports on save.

    * Showing dialog suggesting user to customize settings in Eclipse which
are more suitable for PyDev.

    * Memory improvements on situations where an OutOfMemoryError could
happen.

    * Search references (Ctrl+Shift+G) when initial is on external module
works (for matches in workspace).

* **Rename refactoring**:

    * Added option to rename module without updating references.

    * Bugfixes.

* **Performance**:

    * Code completion: Builtins gotten from a shell are now cached for
subsequent requests.

    * Doing a full build (reindex) is faster.

* **Debugger**:

    * Improvements on stackless integration.

    * Providing a view which shows the current caught exception.

    * Providing way to ignore current caught exception.

    * Providing option to show progress on taskbar when breakpoint is hit
to get the users attention (windows 7).

    * Fixed issue in while getting referrers when getting __dict__ and
having an exception.



What is PyDev?
---------------------------

PyDev is a plugin that enables users to use Eclipse for Python, Jython and
IronPython development -- making Eclipse a first class Python IDE -- It
comes with many goodies such as code completion, syntax highlighting,
syntax analysis, refactor, debug and many others.


Cheers,

--
Fabio Zadrozny
------------------------------------------------------
Software Developer

LiClipse
http://brainwy.github.io/liclipse

PyDev - Python Development Environment for Eclipse
http://pydev.org
http://pydev.blogspot.com
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From roy at panix.com  Mon Dec 30 11:04:36 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:04:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PyDev 3.2.0 Released
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4717.1388413199.18130.python-list@python.org>
References: <mailman.4717.1388413199.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <753acf43-e307-4f5d-b56d-756f9658f4f9@googlegroups.com>

On Monday, December 30, 2013 8:16:03 AM UTC-5, Fabio Zadrozny wrote:
> [lots of stuff]
> What is PyDev?
> ---------------------------
> 
> PyDev is a plugin that enables users to use Eclipse for Python...

A suggestion for announcements of this type.  Put the "What is X" part up front, so people can quickly tell if this is something they're interested in or not.

[I don't use Eclipse myself, but this looks like a cool project]


From martin at jakis.adres.em  Mon Dec 30 13:38:20 2013
From: martin at jakis.adres.em (Bischoop)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 18:38:20 +0000
Subject: Dictionary
Message-ID: <x4jwu.3413$Bs5.1921@fx09.am4>

I have a txt file with some words, and need simply program that will 
print me words containing provided letters.

For example:
Type the letters:
 (I type: g,m,o)
open the dictionary.txt
	check words containing:g,m,o in dictionary.txt
if there are words containing: ["g", "m", "o" ]	
	print words with g,m,o



From walterhurry at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 13:56:34 2013
From: walterhurry at gmail.com (Walter Hurry)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 18:56:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Dictionary
References: <x4jwu.3413$Bs5.1921@fx09.am4>
Message-ID: <l9sfl2$92u$1@news.albasani.net>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 18:38:20 +0000, Bischoop wrote:

> I have a txt file with some words, and need simply program that will
> print me words containing provided letters.
> 
> For example:
> Type the letters:
>  (I type: g,m,o)
> open the dictionary.txt
> 	check words containing:g,m,o in dictionary.txt
> if there are words containing: ["g", "m", "o" ]
> 	print words with g,m,o

Well, what have you tried so far, and what result did you get?

The incredibly helpful people here will provide advice, guidance and 
pointers, but it won't help you at all if they just do your homework for 
you.



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Dec 30 14:12:04 2013
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 14:12:04 -0500
Subject: Spam trash sent to python-list from google-groups
Message-ID: <l9sgho$q9l$1@ger.gmane.org>

In the last week, python list received the following from google-groups.

vbfvf6 at gmail.com via google-groups
NOW Watch Hot Sexy Star Aishwarya rai Bathing Videos In All Angles
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749545

hussainc1969 at gmail.com via gg
Sania Mirza Naked Pics at www.ZHAKKAS.com
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749570

hossamalagmy at gmail.com via gg
=?windows-1256?B?3e3TIMjm3yAtIGZhY2Vib29r?= (Partly Arabic script)
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749589

Just to let people know, I have informed the other python-list-owners of 
the situation (and of gg formatting problems) and have enquired about 
possible actions.

I applaud everyone for their restraint in not responding to the above. 
Let them die without be propagated by responses. Please also do not use 
this notice as an excuse for repetitious gg comments.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 14:31:45 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:31:45 +0000
Subject: Spam trash sent to python-list from google-groups
In-Reply-To: <l9sgho$q9l$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <l9sgho$q9l$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <l9shmn$7aq$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 19:12, Terry Reedy wrote:
> In the last week, python list received the following from google-groups.
>
> vbfvf6 at gmail.com via google-groups
> NOW Watch Hot Sexy Star Aishwarya rai Bathing Videos In All Angles
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749545
>
> hussainc1969 at gmail.com via gg
> Sania Mirza Naked Pics at www.ZHAKKAS.com
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749570
>
> hossamalagmy at gmail.com via gg
> =?windows-1256?B?3e3TIMjm3yAtIGZhY2Vib29r?= (Partly Arabic script)
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/749589

hossamalagmy turns up every now and again as does BV BV whatever.  For 
any spam I go straight to gg and gmane and mark them as spam.  Every 
little counts :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 14:41:44 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
Message-ID: <l9si9e$bkl$1@ger.gmane.org>

http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to 
some of you.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve at pearwood.info  Mon Dec 30 15:49:16 2013
From: steve at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: 30 Dec 2013 20:49:16 GMT
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
> some of you.

I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for 
sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.

I'd like to know where Alex gets the idea that the transition of Python 2 
to 3 was supposed to be a five year plan. As far as I know, it was a ten 
year plan, and we're well ahead of expectations of where we would be at 
this point of time. People *are* using Python 3, the major Linux distros 
are planning to move to Python 3, the "Python Wall Of Shame" stopped 
being a wall of shame a long time ago (I think it was a year ago? or at 
least six months ago). Alex's article is, basically, FUD.

More comments will have to follow later.


-- 
Steven


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 16:29:00 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 21:29:00 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>> some of you.
>
> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>
> I'd like to know where Alex gets the idea that the transition of Python 2
> to 3 was supposed to be a five year plan. As far as I know, it was a ten
> year plan, and we're well ahead of expectations of where we would be at
> this point of time. People *are* using Python 3, the major Linux distros
> are planning to move to Python 3, the "Python Wall Of Shame" stopped
> being a wall of shame a long time ago (I think it was a year ago? or at
> least six months ago). Alex's article is, basically, FUD.
>
> More comments will have to follow later.
>

http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec 30 17:38:36 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 14:38:36 -0800
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/30/2013 01:29 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>>> some of you.
>>
>> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
>> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>
> http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.

Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 20:09:39 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 12:09:39 +1100
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQvYuEePWEEqnQyMmw+Q4S+2s3A2dg43ni=4omP5zWgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 01:29 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>
>> On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>>>> some of you.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
>>> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>>
>>
>> http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.
>
>
> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)

Does this steam?

http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/12/about-python-3-response.html

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 23:59:35 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 04:59:35 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoQvYuEePWEEqnQyMmw+Q4S+2s3A2dg43ni=4omP5zWgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPTjJmoQvYuEePWEEqnQyMmw+Q4S+2s3A2dg43ni=4omP5zWgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9tive$fap$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 31/12/2013 01:09, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 9:38 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> On 12/30/2013 01:29 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>> On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>>>>> some of you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
>>>> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.
>>
>>
>> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>
> Does this steam?
>
> http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/12/about-python-3-response.html
>
> ChrisA
>

I'd have said restrained.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 23:25:50 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:25:50 -0800
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CABicbJ+f1dNFpg_rr=LDEjR53VL8XRU_FDBcpdEh0GR=0kmvqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)

Indeed. Every post that disagrees with my opinion and understanding of
the situation is complete BS and a conspiracy to spread fear,
uncertainty, and doubt. Henceforth I will explain few to no specific
disagreements, nor will I give anyone the benefit of the doubt,
because that would be silly.

-- Devin


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Mon Dec 30 23:33:25 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:33:25 -0800
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <CABicbJ+f1dNFpg_rr=LDEjR53VL8XRU_FDBcpdEh0GR=0kmvqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <CABicbJ+f1dNFpg_rr=LDEjR53VL8XRU_FDBcpdEh0GR=0kmvqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52C24915.1090803@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/30/2013 08:25 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>
> Indeed. Every post that disagrees with my opinion and understanding of
> the situation is complete BS and a conspiracy to spread fear,
> uncertainty, and doubt. Henceforth I will explain few to no specific
> disagreements, nor will I give anyone the benefit of the doubt,
> because that would be silly.

Couldn't of said it better myself!  Well, except for the "my opinion" part -- obviously it's not my opinion, but 
reality!  ;)

--
~Ethan~


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 30 23:38:52 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 04:38:52 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l9thoj$53k$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 22:38, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 01:29 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>>>> some of you.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
>>> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>>
>> http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.
>
> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

Merely pointing out the existence of these little gems in order to find 
out people's feelings about them.  You never know, we might even end up 
with a thread whereby the discussion is Python, the whole Python and 
nothing but the Python.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 23:44:32 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 15:44:32 +1100
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <l9thoj$53k$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <l9thoj$53k$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrAMNpsrw-QQRF=sHQGmbkjv+ZNm+Dy+0yRomXntWwiWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 3:38 PM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> You never know, we might even end up with a thread whereby the discussion is
> Python, the whole Python and nothing but the Python.

What, on python-list??! [1] That would be a silly idea. We should
avoid such theories with all vigor.

ChrisA

[1] In C, that would be interpreted as "What, on python-list|" and
would confuse everyone.


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 31 03:22:23 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:22:23 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <l9turm$pag$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 22:38, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 01:29 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 30/12/2013 20:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>>>> some of you.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether to thank you for the link, or shout at you for
>>> sending eyeballs to look at such a pile of steaming bullshit.
>>
>> http://nuitka.net/posts/re-about-python-3.html is a response.
>
> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

I wasn't, but I am now 
http://blog.startifact.com/posts/alex-gaynor-on-python-3.html. "The 
Python core developers somewhat gleefully slammed the door shut on 
Python 2.8 back in 2011, though.", which refers to PEP 404 which I 
mentioned a month or so ago.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 31 04:53:25 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:53:25 +1100
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4748.1388478161.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52c29416$0$29987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> http://blog.startifact.com/posts/alex-gaynor-on-python-3.html.

I quote:

"...perhaps a brave group of volunteers will stand up and fork Python 2, and
take the incremental steps forward. This will have to remain just an idle
suggestion, as I'm not volunteering myself."

I expect that as excuses for not migrating get fewer, and the deadline for
Python 2.7 end-of-life starts to loom closer, more and more haters^W
Concerned People will whine about the lack of version 2.8 and ask for
*somebody else* to fork Python.

I find it, hmmm, interesting, that so many of these Concerned People who say
that they're worried about splitting the Python community[1] end up
suggesting that we *split the community* into those who have moved forward
to Python 3 and those who won't.





[1] As if the community is a single amorphous group. It is not. It is made
up of web developers using Zope or Django, and scientists using scipy, and
linguists using NLTK, and system administrators using nothing but the
stdlib, and school kids learning how to program, and professionals who know
seventeen different programming languages, and EVE Online gamers using
Stackless, and Java guys using Jython, and many more besides, most of whom
are sure that their little tiny part of the Python ecosystem is
representative of everyone else when in fact they hardly talk at all.

-- 
Steven



From solipsis at pitrou.net  Tue Dec 31 09:13:58 2013
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 14:13:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4748.1388478161.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c29416$0$29987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20131231T151220-716@post.gmane.org>

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python <at> pearwood.info> writes:
> 
> I expect that as excuses for not migrating get fewer, and the deadline for
> Python 2.7 end-of-life starts to loom closer, more and more haters^W
> Concerned People will whine about the lack of version 2.8 and ask for
> *somebody else* to fork Python.
> 
> I find it, hmmm, interesting, that so many of these Concerned People who say
> that they're worried about splitting the Python community[1] end up
> suggesting that we *split the community* into those who have moved forward
> to Python 3 and those who won't.

Indeed. This would be extremely destructive (not to mention alienating the
people doing *actual* maintenance and enhancements on Python-and-its-stdlib,
of which at least 95% are committed to the original plan for 3.x to slowly
supercede 2.x).

Regards

Antoine.




From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 31 10:41:27 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:41:27 -0500
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4748.1388478161.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c29416$0$29987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4753.1388499265.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <roy-4C0A2F.10412731122013@news.panix.com>

In article <mailman.4753.1388499265.18130.python-list at python.org>,
 Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python <at> pearwood.info> writes:
> > 
> > I expect that as excuses for not migrating get fewer, and the deadline for
> > Python 2.7 end-of-life starts to loom closer, more and more haters^W
> > Concerned People will whine about the lack of version 2.8 and ask for
> > *somebody else* to fork Python.
> > 
> > I find it, hmmm, interesting, that so many of these Concerned People who say
> > that they're worried about splitting the Python community[1] end up
> > suggesting that we *split the community* into those who have moved forward
> > to Python 3 and those who won't.
> 
> Indeed. This would be extremely destructive (not to mention alienating the
> people doing *actual* maintenance and enhancements on Python-and-its-stdlib,
> of which at least 95% are committed to the original plan for 3.x to slowly
> supercede 2.x).
> 
> Regards
> 
> Antoine.

I'm using 2.7 in production.  I realize that at some point we'll need to 
upgrade to 3.x.  We'll keep putting that off as long as the "effort + 
dependencies + risk" metric exceeds the "perceived added value" metric.

I can't imagine the migration will happen in 2014.  Maybe not even in 
2015.  Beyond that, my crystal ball only shows darkness.  But, in any 
case, going with a fork of 2.x has zero appeal.  Given the choice 
between effort + risk to move forward vs. effort + risk to move 
sideways, I'll move forward every time.

To be honest, the "perceived added value" in 3.x is pretty low for us.  
What we're running now works.  Switching to 3.x isn't going to increase 
our monthly average users, or our retention rate, or decrease our COGS, 
or increase our revenue.  There's no killer features we need.  In 
summary, the decision to migrate will be driven more by risk aversion, 
when the risk of staying on an obsolete, unsupported platform, exceeds 
the risk of moving to a new one.  Or, there will be some third-party 
module that we must have which is no longer supported on 2.x.

If I were starting a new project today, I would probably start it in 3.x.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 10:54:32 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 02:54:32 +1100
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <roy-4C0A2F.10412731122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4748.1388478161.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c29416$0$29987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4753.1388499265.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4C0A2F.10412731122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrhW2=r0i1fuWpB1VvKAR_AqDvMTCv+cLxqpYoO=8rjMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:41 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
> To be honest, the "perceived added value" in 3.x is pretty low for us.
> What we're running now works.  Switching to 3.x isn't going to increase
> our monthly average users, or our retention rate, or decrease our COGS,
> or increase our revenue.  There's no killer features we need.  In
> summary, the decision to migrate will be driven more by risk aversion,
> when the risk of staying on an obsolete, unsupported platform, exceeds
> the risk of moving to a new one.  Or, there will be some third-party
> module that we must have which is no longer supported on 2.x.

The biggest killer feature for most deployments is likely to be that
Unicode "just works" everywhere. Any new module added to Py3 can be
back-ported to Py2 (with some amount of work - might be trivial, might
be a huge job), and syntactic changes are seldom a "killer feature",
but being able to depend on *every single library function* working
perfectly with the full Unicode range means you don't have to test
every branch of your code.

If that's not going to draw you, then yeah, there's not a lot to
justify switching. You won't get more users, it'll increase your costs
(though by a fixed amount, not an ongoing cost), and old code is
trustworthy code, new code is bug city.

> If I were starting a new project today, I would probably start it in 3.x.

And that's the right attitude (though I would drop the "probably").
Eventually it'll become more critical to upgrade (once Py2 security
patches stop coming through, maybe), and when that day does finally
come, you'll be glad you have just your 2013 codebases rather than the
additional ones dating from 2014 and on until whatever day that is.
The past is Py2; the future is Py3. In between, use whichever one
makes better business sense.

ChrisA


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 31 10:55:40 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 15:55:40 +0000
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
In-Reply-To: <roy-4C0A2F.10412731122013@news.panix.com>
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
 <l9soij$ck6$1@ger.gmane.org> <52C1F5EC.3020808@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.4748.1388478161.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c29416$0$29987$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
 <mailman.4753.1388499265.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <roy-4C0A2F.10412731122013@news.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l9updj$9cd$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 31/12/2013 15:41, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.4753.1388499265.18130.python-list at python.org>,
>   Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:
>
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python <at> pearwood.info> writes:
>>>
>>> I expect that as excuses for not migrating get fewer, and the deadline for
>>> Python 2.7 end-of-life starts to loom closer, more and more haters^W
>>> Concerned People will whine about the lack of version 2.8 and ask for
>>> *somebody else* to fork Python.
>>>
>>> I find it, hmmm, interesting, that so many of these Concerned People who say
>>> that they're worried about splitting the Python community[1] end up
>>> suggesting that we *split the community* into those who have moved forward
>>> to Python 3 and those who won't.
>>
>> Indeed. This would be extremely destructive (not to mention alienating the
>> people doing *actual* maintenance and enhancements on Python-and-its-stdlib,
>> of which at least 95% are committed to the original plan for 3.x to slowly
>> supercede 2.x).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Antoine.
>
> I'm using 2.7 in production.  I realize that at some point we'll need to
> upgrade to 3.x.  We'll keep putting that off as long as the "effort +
> dependencies + risk" metric exceeds the "perceived added value" metric.
>

Do you use any of the features that were backported from 3.x to 2.7, or 
could you have stayed with 2.6 or an even older version?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 31 04:04:14 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:04:14 +1100
Subject: Blog "about python 3"
References: <mailman.4724.1388432539.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c1dc4c$0$2877$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <52c28891$0$6512$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 19:41:44 +0000, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
>> http://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ may be of interest to
>> some of you.
[...]
> I'd like to know where Alex gets the idea that the transition of Python 2
> to 3 was supposed to be a five year plan. As far as I know, it was a ten
> year plan, 

I haven't been able to find anything in writing from Guido or the core
developers stating that the transition period was expected to be ten years,
although I haven't looked very hard. I strongly recall it being discussed,
so unless you want to trawl the python-dev mailing list, you'll just have
to take my word on it *wink*

PEP 3000 makes it clear that Guido van Rossum expected the transition period
to be longer than usual:

    [quote]
    I expect that there will be parallel Python 2.x and 3.x releases 
    for some time; the Python 2.x releases will continue for a longer 
    time than the traditional 2.x.y bugfix releases. Typically, we 
    stop releasing bugfix versions for 2.x once version 2.(x+1) has 
    been released. But I expect there to be at least one or two new 2.x
    releases even after 3.0 (final) has been released, probably well 
    into 3.1 or 3.2.
    [end quote]

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3000/

A five year transition period, as suggested by Alex Gaynor, simply makes no
sense. Normal support for a single release is four or five years, e.g.
Python 2.4 and 2.5 release schedules:

* Python 2.4 alpha-1 was released on July 9 2004; the final security 
  update was December 19 2008; 

* Python 2.5 alpha-1 was released on April 5 2006; the final security
  update was May 26 2011.

(Dates may be approximate, especially the alpha dates. I'm taking them from
PEP 320 and 356.)

Now in fairness, Guido's comment about "well into 3.1 or 3.2" turned out to
be rather naive in retrospect. 3.4 alpha has been released, and support for
2.7 is expected to continue for *at least* two more years:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0373/#maintenance-releases

which means that 2.7 probably won't become unmaintained until 3.5 is out. In
hindsight, this is probably a good thing. The early releases of 3.x made a
few mistakes, and it's best to skip them and go straight to 3.3 or better,
for example:

- 3.0 was buggy enough that support for it was dropped almost immediately;

- built-in function callable() is missing from 3.1;

- 3.1 and 3.2 both have exception chaining, but there's no way to 
  suppress the chained exceptions until 3.3;

- 3.1 and 3.2 don't allow u'' strings for compatibility with 2.x.


The 2.8 un-release schedule goes into more detail about the transition, and
why there won't be an official 2.8 blessed by the core developers:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0404/

(Python is open source -- nothing is stopping people from forking the
language or picking up support for 2.7. I wonder how many Python3 naysayers
volunteer to support 2.x once the core devs drop it?)

As of June this year, over 75% of the top fifty projects hosted on PyPI
supported Python 3:

http://py3ksupport.appspot.com/

and the Python Wall Of Shame turned majority green, becoming the Wall Of
Superpowers, at least six months ago. (Back in June, I noted that it had
changed colour some time ago.) Alex's claim that "almost no code is written
for Python 3" is, well, I'll be kind and describe it as counter-factual.

Alex points out that the companies he is speaking to have no plans to
migrate to Python 3. Well, duh. In my experience, most companies don't even
begin planning to migrate until six months *after* support has ended for
the systems they rely on. (Perhaps a tiny exaggeration, but not much.)

I won't speak for the Windows or Mac world, but in the Linux world, Python 3
usage depends on the main Linux distros. Yes, ArchLinux has been Python 3
for years now, but ArchLinux is bleeding edge. Fedora is likely to be the
first mainstream distro to move to Python 3:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Python_3_as_Default

Once Fedora moves, I expect Ubuntu will follow. Debian, Centos and RedHat
will probably be more conservative, but they *will* follow, at their own
pace. What are the alternatives? They're not going to drop Python, nor are
they going to take over support of 2.x forever. (RedHat/Centos are still
supporting Python 2.4 and possibly even 2.3, at least in name, but I
haven't seen any security updates come through Centos for a long time.)
Once the system Python is Python 3, the default, no-brainer choice for most
Python coding will be Python 3.

Alex says:

    [quote]
    Why aren't people using Python 3?

    First, I think it's because of a lack of urgency. Many years ago, 
    before I knew how to program, the decision to have Python 3 
    releases live in parallel to Python 2 releases was made. In 
    retrospect this was a mistake, it resulted in a complete lack 
    of urgency for the community to move, and the lack of urgency 
    has given way to lethargy.
    [end quote]


That's only a mistake if you think that migrating to Python 3 needs to be
*urgent*. But it isn't. It's actually a *good thing* if people and
companies can take their sweet time migrating to Python 3. Let's jump back
five years ago. Had Guido announced that Python 2.6 would be followed by
Python 3.0, with little in the way of a transition, people would have been
faced with three unpalatable choices:

1) dig your heels in and stay with Python 2.6 without upstream support or
   security updates;

2) migrate to an essentially untested, backwards-incompatible version of
   Python which is likely to be buggy (as indeed Python 3.0 turned out
   to be);

3) or migrate to some other language.


None of these are good choices, but the difference between 2 and 3 would
have been small: with none of the big frameworks and libraries like numpy
or Zope migrated to Python 3, moving to a completely new language would
have seemed like a reasonable choice. Choose between getting stuck half-way
through a transition because only some of the libraries you need have been
ported, versus move to a new language where you know (or at least *think*
you know) the risks?

Rushing the transition like Alex suggests would have killed Python.

Instead, companies will move when they're ready. Yes, there will be a
deadline, probably in 2017 or 2018, but in the meantime early adopters get
to file back the sharp corners and Python 3.x gets many years to iron out
the bugs. Back when Python 3 was just started, nobody thought that it would
be plausible to have a single code base handle 2.x and 3.x. It turns out
that for many projects, that's actually easier than trying to migrate code
with 2to3. That's the sort of thing which early adopters discovered.
Slow-coaches will find it easier later on because we've had so many years
for the transition.

Alex thinks that the reason people haven't migrated to 3.x is because of a
lack of urgency. And his solution to this lack of urgency is to *reduce*
the level of urgency by another 4 or 5 years by adding a version 2.8. And
no doubt when that fails to work, he'll suggest giving them another 4 or 5
years with version 2.9.

"Hurry up, we're waiting! If you don't hurry up, we'll wait longer!"

I don't think Alex has thought his plan through, unless his plan is actually
to kill Python 3.


-- 
Steven



From rpucci2 at cox.net  Mon Dec 30 13:43:43 2013
From: rpucci2 at cox.net (rpucci2 at cox.net)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:43:43 -0500
Subject: Idle Problems
Message-ID: <BA8CA343B8874A7CAD81F57FF55D1D0F@UserPC>

Hi I just joined this list and have a question.I have python 3.3.3 and running it on a windows 7 computer.Python has been running good until recently.I can bring up python shell,but when I go to run a recently loaded program,the code comes up briefly on the screen and then disappears.Python just quits and then I have to start over.Can someone tell me what is happening?I?m new to python and am just learning.Thanks
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/attachments/20131230/e2024aba/attachment.html>

From mail at timgolden.me.uk  Mon Dec 30 15:53:14 2013
From: mail at timgolden.me.uk (Tim Golden)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 20:53:14 +0000
Subject: Idle Problems
In-Reply-To: <BA8CA343B8874A7CAD81F57FF55D1D0F@UserPC>
References: <BA8CA343B8874A7CAD81F57FF55D1D0F@UserPC>
Message-ID: <52C1DD3A.8080900@timgolden.me.uk>

On 30/12/2013 18:43, rpucci2 at cox.net wrote:
> Hi I just joined this list and have a question.I have python 3.3.3 and
> running it on a windows 7 computer.Python has been running good until
> recently.I can bring up python shell,but when I go to run a recently
> loaded program,the code comes up briefly on the screen and then
> disappears.Python just quits and then I have to start over.Can someone
> tell me what is happening?I?m new to python and am just learning.Thanks

Hi, welcome to Python.

This is a common question and has been answered quite a few times on 
this list, including quite recently. However, I can't for the life of me 
find an example of such an answer in the archives! (Someone's sure to 
help me out here).

In short, you'd do better to start up a console window (using Start > 
Run > cmd.exe or any other way you choose). You can then cd to the 
directory your code is in, and run the programs that way. The thing is 
that, if your program looks like this:

<code>
import sys

print("Hello, World!)
print("I'm running Python version ", sys.version)

</code>

then, when you double-click, your program will run in a console window, 
print its brief output, and exit, all before you've really noticed 
what's going on!

Have a look here:

   http://docs.python.org/3.3/faq/windows

and here:

   http://docs.python.org/3.3/using/windows.html

for some amount of help.

TJG


From bgailer at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 15:54:15 2013
From: bgailer at gmail.com (bob gailer)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 15:54:15 -0500
Subject: Idle Problems
In-Reply-To: <BA8CA343B8874A7CAD81F57FF55D1D0F@UserPC>
References: <BA8CA343B8874A7CAD81F57FF55D1D0F@UserPC>
Message-ID: <52C1DD77.3030807@gmail.com>

On 12/30/2013 1:43 PM, rpucci2 at cox.net wrote:
> Hi I just joined this list and have a question.I have python 3.3.3 and 
> running it on a windows 7 computer.Python has been running good until 
> recently.I can bring up python shell,but when I go to run a recently 
> loaded program,the code comes up briefly on the screen and then 
> disappears.Python just quits and then I have to start over.Can someone 
> tell me what is happening?I?m new to python and am just learning.Thanks
What do you mean by "run a recently loaded program"? and by "the code 
comes up briefly on the screen and then disappears"?

We could guess but that is a waste of time.

How did you load it? What did you do to run it?

Be as thorough and specific as you can.




From drsalists at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 16:56:30 2013
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 13:56:30 -0800
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>

I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.

Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.

I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.

Here's the URL:
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2


From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 17:14:53 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 16:14:53 -0600
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52C1F05D.8090805@gmail.com>

On 2013.12.30 15:56, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
> 
> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
> 
> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
> 
> Here's the URL:
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2
> 
It was closer to 5 or 10 seconds. :)

-- 
CPython 3.3.3 | Windows NT 6.2.9200 / FreeBSD 10.0


From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Dec 30 18:43:09 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:43:09 +1100
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrCq+BMUCoTcT+t7rnkT4gCODSX95DdUO6u7K49e5hmug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
>
> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
>
> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
>
> Here's the URL:
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2

Will be interested to see the stats at the end of that survey! Though
of course posting to this list does give some inherent bias. But I
suspect the stats will show a large proportion of people are
comfortable on Py3.

ChrisA


From cs at zip.com.au  Mon Dec 30 21:59:03 2013
From: cs at zip.com.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 13:59:03 +1100
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
In-Reply-To: <j334c9dhk658lm7r3hd6phjokng2tj01h4@4ax.com>
References: <j334c9dhk658lm7r3hd6phjokng2tj01h4@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20131231025903.GA35201@cskk.homeip.net>

On 30Dec2013 19:16, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Dec 2013 16:14:53 -0600, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com>
> declaimed the following:
> 
> >On 2013.12.30 15:56, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> >> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
> >> 
> >> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
> >> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
> >> 
> >> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
> >> 
> >> Here's the URL:
> >> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2
> >> 
> >It was closer to 5 or 10 seconds. :)
> 
> 	If that much...
> 
> 	Too many questions require a positive response to a previous question
> (for example, if one has not written Python 3.x, one is also unlikely to
> have used any of the porting tools).

How complex do you want it to be? One can post filter the results
for relevance I suppose.

My only gripe is the "do you write more code for 2.x or 3.x" question;
I do in fact write more python 2 (I suppose), but since I'm striving
to make my codebase portable between 2 and 3 the question is a poor
fit. There is at least the "do you write code to run on both?" later.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs at zip.com.au>

SPSS. Big honkin' stats package. Comes with a good manual.
        - Dan Hillman <dcah100 at cus.cam.ac.uk>


From breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 31 03:54:02 2013
From: breamoreboy at yahoo.co.uk (Mark Lawrence)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 08:54:02 +0000
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l9u0n1$77m$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 30/12/2013 21:56, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
>
> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
>
> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
>
> Here's the URL:
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2
>

People using 1.x will be miffed as their baby has been missed out :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence



From steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info  Tue Dec 31 05:08:01 2013
From: steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info (Steven D'Aprano)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:08:01 +1100
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
References: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4749.1388480060.18130.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <52c29782$0$29979$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>

Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 30/12/2013 21:56, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
>>
>> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
>> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
>>
>> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
>>
>> Here's the URL:
>> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2
>>
> 
> People using 1.x will be miffed as their baby has been missed out :)

You laugh, but there was at least one attendee at the last PyCon who was
still using 1.5 professionally. Software never quite dies so long as there
is hardware capable of running it.


-- 
Steven



From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 31 10:18:47 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:18:47 -0500
Subject: Python 2.x and 3.x usage survey
References: <CAGGBd_rC3GMGhS8yJFNEQNC8PK6=NBbzUx7t1BREur+Z7b40Ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.4749.1388480060.18130.python-list@python.org>
 <52c29782$0$29979$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Message-ID: <roy-40401D.10184731122013@news.panix.com>

In article <52c29782$0$29979$c3e8da3$5496439d at news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python at pearwood.info> wrote:

> Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
> > On 30/12/2013 21:56, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> >> I keep hearing naysayers, nay saying about Python 3.x.
> >>
> >> Here's a 9 question, multiple choice survey I put together about
> >> Python 2.x use vs Python 3.x use.
> >>
> >> I'd be very pleased if you could take 5 or 10 minutes to fill it out.
> >>
> >> Here's the URL:
> >> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/N5N5PG2
> >>
> > 
> > People using 1.x will be miffed as their baby has been missed out :)
> 
> You laugh, but there was at least one attendee at the last PyCon who was
> still using 1.5 professionally. Software never quite dies so long as there
> is hardware capable of running it.

Oh, that's absurd.  He should have at least upgraded to 1.6.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 00:30:34 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 11:00:34 +0530
Subject: Fwd: Mailing list erraticness
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeoejgDvwGOCrZ5Ug3MC8eSR3uEU2TxAKpT7S26vYNeRiNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+TeoejgDvwGOCrZ5Ug3MC8eSR3uEU2TxAKpT7S26vYNeRiNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeodmBzLqC6StEbcKW+8fC4YpvEtm3AyRmt321soiw0reuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Ethan Furman  wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 08:25 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Ethan Furman  wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>>
>>
>> Indeed. Every post that disagrees with my opinion and understanding of
>> the situation is complete BS and a conspiracy to spread fear,
>> uncertainty, and doubt. Henceforth I will explain few to no specific
>> disagreements, nor will I give anyone the benefit of the doubt,
>> because that would be silly.
>
>
> Couldn't of said it better myself!  Well, except for the "my opinion" part
> -- obviously it's not my opinion, but reality!  ;)

More mailing list erraticness:
I see Ethan's comment on Devin but not Devin's post
Neither in GG nor in my email


From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 31 00:19:18 2013
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 21:19:18 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Mailing list erraticness
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+TeoejgDvwGOCrZ5Ug3MC8eSR3uEU2TxAKpT7S26vYNeRiNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+TeoejgDvwGOCrZ5Ug3MC8eSR3uEU2TxAKpT7S26vYNeRiNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52C253D6.10900@stoneleaf.us>

Accidental off-list reply.  :)

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Ethan Furman  wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 08:25 PM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Ethan Furman  wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow -- another steaming pile!  Mark, are you going for a record?  ;)
>>
>>
>> Indeed. Every post that disagrees with my opinion and understanding of
>> the situation is complete BS and a conspiracy to spread fear,
>> uncertainty, and doubt. Henceforth I will explain few to no specific
>> disagreements, nor will I give anyone the benefit of the doubt,
>> because that would be silly.
>
>
> Couldn't of said it better myself!  Well, except for the "my opinion" part
> -- obviously it's not my opinion, but reality!  ;)

More mailing list erraticness:
I see Ethan's comment on Devin but not Devin's post
Neither in GG nor in my email




From jeanpierreda at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 01:41:38 2013
From: jeanpierreda at gmail.com (Devin Jeanpierre)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 22:41:38 -0800
Subject: Mailing list erraticness
In-Reply-To: <52C253D6.10900@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAJ+TeoejgDvwGOCrZ5Ug3MC8eSR3uEU2TxAKpT7S26vYNeRiNg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52C253D6.10900@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CABicbJ++v2FGV9KpJ4cZrJBwGqWn42FvseD4tn42=bmQrpp4kA@mail.gmail.com>

I can't tell from your email who the original author of the forwarded
email is. :(

On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> More mailing list erraticness:
> I see Ethan's comment on Devin but not Devin's post
> Neither in GG nor in my email

Nor on the archives:
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2013-December/thread.html

I'd be interested in understanding what happened. The message was sent
to Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> and Cc'd to "comp.lang.python"
<python-list at python.org>.

-- Devin


From pythonsatya at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 06:52:12 2013
From: pythonsatya at gmail.com (python satya)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:22:12 +0530
Subject: PyImport_ImportModule(..) returns NULL
Message-ID: <CAFyQRXSsWTRTw=sJMHU13CwoAxOQzpuHU2HrDtm5AZRVGCeLjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
          I am new to python, am trying to use embedding python API's in
C,as below

I have my python file test.py in  "/var/tmp" path and trying to fetch
objects and functions from python script as below, but
PyImport_ImportModule("test") returning NULL always(instead adding /var/tmp
path to syspath)

Please let me know, how to solve this?

$% more /var/tmp/test.py
#!/usr/bin/python

import sys

input = "<dummy/>"

==================================================
#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <Python.h>

int main(void)
{
    const char *scriptDirectoryName = "/var/tmp";
    Py_Initialize();
    PyObject *sysPath = PySys_GetObject("path");
    PyObject *path = PyString_FromString(scriptDirectoryName);
    PyList_Insert(sysPath, 0, path);
    PyObject *pModule = PyImport_ImportModule("test");
    if (pModule == NULL) {
        fp = fopen("/var/tmp/abc.txt", "w");
        fprintf(fp, "Fail to search in /var/tmp path");
        fclose(fp);
    } else {
       /* Read input object ... */
   }

    Py_Finalize();
    return 0;
}

====================================================

$% more /var/tmp/abc.txt
Fail to search in /var/tmp path

Thanks,
Satya
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From edzeame at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 10:19:33 2013
From: edzeame at gmail.com (Max Cuban)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 07:19:33 -0800
Subject: Python/Django Extract and append only new links
Message-ID: <CAOoUdcaJoAzqNALeBuayw84KNX9A9CO77Rr4SLLjvmR=4_3ThA@mail.gmail.com>

 I am putting together a project using Python 2.7 Django 1.5 on Windows 7.
I believe this should be on the django group but I haven't had help from
there so I figured I would try the python list
I have the following view:
views.py:

def foo():
    site = "http://www.foo.com/portal/jobs"
    hdr = {'User-Agent' : 'Mozilla/5.0'}
    req = urllib2.Request(site, headers=hdr)
    jobpass = urllib2.urlopen(req)
    soup = BeautifulSoup(jobpass)
    for tag in soup.find_all('a', href = True):
        tag['href'] = urlparse.urljoin('http://www.businessghana.com/portal/',
tag['href'])
    return map(str, soup.find_all('a', href = re.compile('.getJobInfo')))
def example():
    site = "http://example.com"
    hdr = {'User-Agent' : 'Mozilla/5.0'}
    req = urllib2.Request(site, headers=hdr)
    jobpass = urllib2.urlopen(req)
    soup = BeautifulSoup(jobpass)
    return map(str, soup.find_all('a', href = re.compile('.display-job')))
 foo_links = foo()
 example_links = example()
def all_links():
    return (foo_links + example_links)
def display_links(request):
    name = all_links()
    paginator = Paginator(name, 25)
    page = request.GET.get('page')
    try:
        name = paginator.page(page)
    except PageNotAnInteger:
        name = paginator.page(1)
    except EmptyPage:
        name = paginator.page(paginator.num_pages)
    return render_to_response('jobs.html', {'name' : name})

My template looks like this:

<ol>
{% for link in name %}
  <li> {{ link|safe }}</li>
{% endfor %}
 </ol>
 <div class="pagination">
<span class= "step-links">
    {% if name.has_previous %}
        <a href="?page={{ names.previous_page_number }}">Previous</a>
    {% endif %}
    <span class = "current">
        Page {{ name.number }} of {{ name.paginator.num_pages}}.
    </span>
    {% if name.has_next %}
        <a href="?page={{ name.next_page_number}}">next</a>
    {% endif %}
</span>
 </div>

 Right now as my code stands, anytime I run it, it scraps all the links on
the frontpage of the sites selected and presents them paginated *all afresh*.
However, I don't think its a good idea for the script to read/write all the
links that had previously extracted links all over again and therefore
would like to check for and append only new links. I would like to save the
previously scraped links so that over the course of say, a week, all the
links that have appeared on the frontpage of these sites will be available
on my site as older pages.

It's my first programming project and don't know how to incorporate this
logic into my code.

Any help/pointers/references will be greatly appreciated.

regards, Max
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From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 12:00:29 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:30:29 +0530
Subject: looking for a quote on age and technology
Message-ID: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>

There is a quote which I vaguely remember seeing on this list.
It went something like this: (yeah my rendering is poor)

For a new technology:
  If you are a kid when it comes out, you just take it as a matter of course
  If you are a young adult, then it becomes a hot topic for discussion
  If you are past middle-age you never get it

Anyone knows/remembers it?


From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 12:10:06 2013
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 12:10:06 -0500
Subject: looking for a quote on age and technology
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+xde0zbkFe0tMjhwc_hFVrT+3a71MazQ2eLTHNGA2LT8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:

> There is a quote which I vaguely remember seeing on this list.
> It went something like this: (yeah my rendering is poor)
>
> For a new technology:
>   If you are a kid when it comes out, you just take it as a matter of
> course
>   If you are a young adult, then it becomes a hot topic for discussion
>   If you are past middle-age you never get it
>
> Anyone knows/remembers it?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


sorry, don't remember it, but I disagree.  I'm pretty old (b. 1953) and
sometimes younger people think they get something that really isn't that
impressive.  I have an android phone and I like it, but as a phone,
compared to phones that sit on a desk it totally sucks.

And then there was the pet rock!

happy new year!


-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com
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From gheskett at wdtv.com  Tue Dec 31 13:31:06 2013
From: gheskett at wdtv.com (Gene Heskett)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 13:31:06 -0500
Subject: looking for a quote on age and technology
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+xde0zbkFe0tMjhwc_hFVrT+3a71MazQ2eLTHNGA2LT8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+xde0zbkFe0tMjhwc_hFVrT+3a71MazQ2eLTHNGA2LT8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201312311331.06531.gheskett@wdtv.com>

On Tuesday 31 December 2013 13:19:21 Joel Goldstick did opine:

> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > There is a quote which I vaguely remember seeing on this list.
> > It went something like this: (yeah my rendering is poor)
> > 
> > For a new technology:
> >   If you are a kid when it comes out, you just take it as a matter of
> > 
> > course
> > 
> >   If you are a young adult, then it becomes a hot topic for discussion
> >   If you are past middle-age you never get it
> > 
> > Anyone knows/remembers it?
> > --
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 
> sorry, don't remember it, but I disagree.  I'm pretty old (b. 1953) and
> sometimes younger people think they get something that really isn't that
> impressive.  I have an android phone and I like it, but as a phone,
> compared to phones that sit on a desk it totally sucks.
> 
> And then there was the pet rock!

Chuckle.  I had heard of it, but had not seen one until it showed up on the 
desk of a wannabe salesgal at the tv station I was the CE at back then, as 
somewhat smaller than a baseball and worn somewhat flattened by 20,000 
years of rolling along a river bottom.  It had a magic markered "Turn me 
over" on the top, so as it didn't look big enough to hide one of the local 
scorpions (this was New Mexico folks), I did, to be greeted with "Thanks, 
that felt good" on the other side.  And that was my intro to the craziness 
that was pet rocks.  I even recall at the peak of it, somebody was selling 
sandwich baggies of sand as pet rock food.  I was not impressed by other 
than the crowd mentality of such idiocy.

> happy new year!

Now theres a motion I'll second, have a happy, healthy, and prosperous new 
year all.

Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.  Hate me because I'm beautiful, smart
and rich."
		-- Calvin Keegan
A pen in the hand of this president is far more
dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of
         law-abiding citizens.


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 14:11:24 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 00:41:24 +0530
Subject: looking for a quote on age and technology
In-Reply-To: <CAPM-O+xde0zbkFe0tMjhwc_hFVrT+3a71MazQ2eLTHNGA2LT8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPM-O+xde0zbkFe0tMjhwc_hFVrT+3a71MazQ2eLTHNGA2LT8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeoeAZ8q6Q6AjjQPkb669_q56WbTNEJmyfpO-FM1=OVicvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:40 PM, Joel Goldstick wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> There is a quote which I vaguely remember seeing on this list.
>> It went something like this: (yeah my rendering is poor)
>>
>> For a new technology:
>>   If you are a kid when it comes out, you just take it as a matter of
>> course
>>   If you are a young adult, then it becomes a hot topic for discussion
>>   If you are past middle-age you never get it
>>
>> Anyone knows/remembers it?
>> --
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>
>
> sorry, don't remember it, but I disagree.  I'm pretty old (b. 1953) and
> sometimes younger people think they get something that really isn't that
> impressive.

You are disagreeing with a contrapositive:
That the oldies dont get it does not mean the young 'uns do!
In fact the whole point of that quote (however it went!) was that in
different ways no one 'gets' it

>  I have an android phone and I like it, but as a phone, compared
> to phones that sit on a desk it totally sucks.

I am reminded of a famous quote :
I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out
how to use my telephone.
-------
The double irony is the (supposed) utterer:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bjarne_Stroustrup


From rustompmody at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 12:06:30 2013
From: rustompmody at gmail.com (Rustom Mody)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:36:30 +0530
Subject: looking for a quote on age and technology
In-Reply-To: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ+Teodo1pM2O4r1OFOEiMfVLxbTkb_4J4Pa22ZGOCkQNoSBXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ+TeoeXp-ayff6V3r4iQKkwQ=H9mtpd_+hBRpzoCBYgwA_k0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:30 PM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody at gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a quote which I vaguely remember seeing on this list.
> It went something like this: (yeah my rendering is poor)
>
> For a new technology:
>   If you are a kid when it comes out, you just take it as a matter of course
>   If you are a young adult, then it becomes a hot topic for discussion
>   If you are past middle-age you never get it
>
> Anyone knows/remembers it?

And since the capacitance of the ether where mails seem to hang in
limbo after being sent and before being received seems now to be
reaching 24 hours, heres a
Happy New Year to all!


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Tue Dec 31 12:07:21 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:07:21 -0700
Subject: lookup xpath (other?) to value in html
Message-ID: <CALyJZZXtwD=PKjnnOiAcm3TF6RJZVqjsZCqupooEb8YNBNVoGA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a about 255 data fields that I am trying to verify on thousands of
webpages.
For example:
value: 255,000
sqft: 1800
....
Since I have the correct answer for several pages I would like to lookup
get the location (xpath?) of the data/field value in the page so that I can
check other pages.

Any suggestions?

Vincent Davis
720-301-3003
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From roy at panix.com  Tue Dec 31 12:49:09 2013
From: roy at panix.com (Roy Smith)
Date: 31 Dec 2013 12:49:09 -0500
Subject: What does --no-skip do in nose?
Message-ID: <l9v02l$a91$1@panix2.panix.com>

Environment:
  Python 2.7.3
  nose 1.3.0
  Ubuntu 12.04 Linux

I'm befuddled about how test skipping, and in particular, --no-skip,
is supposed to work in nose.  I've got a trivial test file:

> from nose import SkipTest
> def test_skip():
>     raise SkipTest
>     assert 0

If I run this, it skips the test, as expected:


> $ nosetests try.py
> S
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ran 1 test in 0.001s
> 
> OK (SKIP=1)


What's confusing is, if I use --no-skip, it STILL skips the test:

> $ nosetests --no-skip try.py
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ran 1 test in 0.001s
> 
> OK

The only difference is it doesn't print the "S".  Am I just
mis-understanding what --no-skip is supposed to do?


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 19:14:57 2013
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 11:14:57 +1100
Subject: What does --no-skip do in nose?
In-Reply-To: <l9v02l$a91$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <l9v02l$a91$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpVOrF4esm=UwGMgzJ2TJcU8PahVbq5vSj3tqEDLXHxpg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 4:49 AM, Roy Smith <roy at panix.com> wrote:
>> from nose import SkipTest
>> def test_skip():
>>     raise SkipTest
>>     assert 0
>
> What's confusing is, if I use --no-skip, it STILL skips the test:
>

I don't know nosetests, but I'm fairly sure it's not going to be
mangling the Python language itself. Once you say "raise", the rest of
the code isn't going to run. If you were calling "skip_test()", then I
could imagine it either raising SkipTest or not based on a
command-line parameter, but if there's no such function and you
directly raise the exception, there's not a lot else Python can do.

ChrisA


From jsf80238 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 20:45:08 2013
From: jsf80238 at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 18:45:08 -0700
Subject: lookup xpath (other?) to value in html
In-Reply-To: <CALyJZZXtwD=PKjnnOiAcm3TF6RJZVqjsZCqupooEb8YNBNVoGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyJZZXtwD=PKjnnOiAcm3TF6RJZVqjsZCqupooEb8YNBNVoGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANy1k1g6Ws4G2WkPaZDAm14cN9NESUNqhNk4O-jzctxp9TRCJQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I have a about 255 data fields that I am trying to verify on thousands of
> webpages.
> For example:
> value: 255,000
> sqft: 1800
> ....
> Since I have the correct answer for several pages I would like to lookup get
> the location (xpath?) of the data/field value in the page so that I can
> check other pages.

I'm not sure what you are looking for.  Do you have a sample web page,
and can you show us the output you'd like to see from that webpage?
Have you looked at http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/?


From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec 31 20:50:40 2013
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:50:40 -0500
Subject: What does --no-skip do in nose?
In-Reply-To: <l9v02l$a91$1@panix2.panix.com>
References: <l9v02l$a91$1@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <l9vs94$l01$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 12/31/13 12:49 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> Environment:
>    Python 2.7.3
>    nose 1.3.0
>    Ubuntu 12.04 Linux
>
> I'm befuddled about how test skipping, and in particular, --no-skip,
> is supposed to work in nose.  I've got a trivial test file:
>
>> from nose import SkipTest
>> def test_skip():
>>      raise SkipTest
>>      assert 0
>
> If I run this, it skips the test, as expected:
>
>
>> $ nosetests try.py
>> S
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ran 1 test in 0.001s
>>
>> OK (SKIP=1)
>
>
> What's confusing is, if I use --no-skip, it STILL skips the test:
>
>> $ nosetests --no-skip try.py
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Ran 1 test in 0.001s
>>
>> OK
>
> The only difference is it doesn't print the "S".  Am I just
> mis-understanding what --no-skip is supposed to do?
>

I don't understand why, but my tests confirm what you found: if a test 
raises SkipTest, then it is marked as an S, and included in the count of 
tests run.  If you run with --no-skip, then the result of the test isn't 
displayed in the dots at all, but the test is still included in the 
total count:

$ nosetests
F.S
======================================================================
FAIL: test_fail (test_foo.Test)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/Users/ned/lab/test_foo.py", line 8, in test_fail
     assert 0
AssertionError

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ran 3 tests in 0.004s

FAILED (SKIP=1, failures=1)

$ nosetests --no-skip
F.
======================================================================
FAIL: test_fail (test_foo.Test)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
   File "/Users/ned/lab/test_foo.py", line 8, in test_fail
     assert 0
AssertionError

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ran 3 tests in 0.003s

FAILED (failures=1)


-- 
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com



From ryan at finnesey.com  Tue Dec 31 20:51:37 2013
From: ryan at finnesey.com (Ryan Finnesey)
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2014 01:51:37 +0000
Subject: [sqlite] Happy New Year
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTzsutiqhzLkbtsV2nhOaz1QyZJH5rujuYrqwk0FoKJjaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+FnnTzsutiqhzLkbtsV2nhOaz1QyZJH5rujuYrqwk0FoKJjaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DA582FE7-88F9-4497-B3AB-98D2FB90E7E6@finnesey.com>

Happy New Year to you as well. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:46 PM, "Igor Korot" <ikorot01 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi, ALL,
> I want to wish everybody who is reading and involved with the list
> Happy and oyful New Year!
> Let's have a great time in it and lets make a lot of good products and
> new releases with the software that everybody involve with.
> 
> Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> sqlite-users mailing list
> sqlite-users at sqlite.org
> http://sqlite.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/sqlite-users


From vincent at vincentdavis.net  Tue Dec 31 22:00:38 2013
From: vincent at vincentdavis.net (Vincent Davis)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 20:00:38 -0700
Subject: lookup xpath (other?) to value in html
In-Reply-To: <CANy1k1g6Ws4G2WkPaZDAm14cN9NESUNqhNk4O-jzctxp9TRCJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALyJZZXtwD=PKjnnOiAcm3TF6RJZVqjsZCqupooEb8YNBNVoGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANy1k1g6Ws4G2WkPaZDAm14cN9NESUNqhNk4O-jzctxp9TRCJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALyJZZWBozyDRe7c7hVRExw_V9KSAPQ2+LWjnfkcAo4C2J-rew@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I'm not sure what you are looking for.  Do you have a sample web page,
> and can you show us the output you'd like to see from that webpage?
> Have you looked at http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/?


For example this URL;
http://jeffco.us/ats/displaygeneral.do?sch=001690
The the land sqft is 11082.
Google Chrome gives me the xpath to that data as;
//*[@id="content"]/p[1]/table[4]/tbody/tr[2]/td[8]

What I would like to do (using python) is given 11082 at what xpath can
that be found? (may be more that one)
The examples I can find using google refer to, given xpath what is the
value (the opposite of what I want)

Vincent Davis


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Jason Friedman <jsf80238 at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I have a about 255 data fields that I am trying to verify on thousands of
> > webpages.
> > For example:
> > value: 255,000
> > sqft: 1800
> > ....
> > Since I have the correct answer for several pages I would like to lookup
> get
> > the location (xpath?) of the data/field value in the page so that I can
> > check other pages.
>
> I'm not sure what you are looking for.  Do you have a sample web page,
> and can you show us the output you'd like to see from that webpage?
> Have you looked at http://www.crummy.com/software/BeautifulSoup/?
>
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From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 31 19:46:14 2013
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 16:46:14 -0800
Subject: Happy New Year
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTzsutiqhzLkbtsV2nhOaz1QyZJH5rujuYrqwk0FoKJjaA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, ALL,
I want to wish everybody who is reading and involved with the list
Happy and oyful New Year!
Let's have a great time in it and lets make a lot of good products and
new releases with the software that everybody involve with.

Thank you.