Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?

Rick Johnson rantingrickjohnson at
Thu Feb 28 04:43:58 CET 2013

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:44:08 PM UTC-6, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > This is why i will AGAIN mention my PyWarts list
> > (Hypothetical at this point). We need an official place
> > for the many problems of Python to be discussed in a
> > fair and open manner. A place that will be open to noobs
> > and frequented by pythonisitas (including the BDFL
> > himself!)
> > [...]
> > 
> Go start the list. 

But with that statement you keep missing the point. We DON'T need yet another list on yet another corner of the web. What we DO need is a list that is local to the community. Are you asking me to start a pywarts usenet list? Does the community want it to be titled "PyWarts"? How about showing me that you are really interested by offering some name ideas. I am quite partial to PyWarts because i think the name is "catchy", but i am open to outside ideas, have at it!

> When you get something that's worth posting, go
> post it on the tracker. And if you post something with an actual
> patch, then maybe it'll be accepted.

Yes, that's step two. First step: discussion to find the definition of the bug, second step: open a bug report. Having people voicing opinions on the tracker is diverting the time and energy of the good people who volunteer there. We need to move the discussion somewhere else (PyWarts)

> Why are you demanding that busy people attend to you? You are
> effectively demanding that Guido, who has a full-time job as well as
> being head of a large project, should - without compensation - read
> and actively respond to every one of your whiny posts. 

I understand the responsibilities that Guido is tasked, and i do not expect him to answer frivolous questions on the list. What i DO expect is that he at minimum publicly support the following:
1. Guido needs to wield his power by announcing (politely) that the community should be more open to outside opinions and methods of solving problems. This is the most important step and the start of a recovery process.

2. Guido should also announce that in order to achieve this goal, we need a very public and very intuitive path of solving Python issues. This path starts at a list for sharing Python related greivances (call it PyWarts if you like) , which HOPEFULLY he will at least make an attempt to visit from time to time. This list (and this path) needs to be mentioned quite prominately on the website (which itself needs quite a bit of polishing!)

GvR has not even shown his face on python-list list for around a decade or more. He only posts at "py-ideas" (that i know of). This is why the community is in such disarray. It is paramount that he make some public appearance and speak of his dreams for the future. 

 "How can GvR go and declare himself a BDFL and then sail off into the sunset to his little island paridise of "py-ideas" without ever giving validity to his people and his creation? If does not want to lead anymore, fine! Say so. If he does, fine! Make an announcment!"

> That is simply
> not going to happen unless he *wants to*. It's up to you to make it
> worth his while, or at least interesting. That's how things work.

All i ask is for Guido to lead. That's all.

He is the only person in this whole damn community who has the influence to speak and have people listen. If he will publicly endorse some "good will" within the community, and admit that we desperately need a streamed-lined and linear path for solving python's many problems, i can guarantee that we will see a great influx of really smart people. I myself will commit every second i can to help move along the evolution. 

I also wish he would speak publicly about the stale nature of Tkinter and IDLE. Allowing these two modules to become so outdated is really tarnishing the image of Python's stdlib. Whether you think the modules should be in the stdlib or not, is *not* the question. They are there, so we must try to improve them. 

Python is a great language, but we need diverse ideas to keep the cogs of evolution turning. Guido can start the ball rolling 10 minutes from now, all it will take is for him to make a public announcement...

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