Simple graphic library for beginners

[Tim Golden]

On 12/01/2018 08:47, Paul Moore wrote:
> On 12 January 2018 at 01:21, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On 11/01/2018 23:23, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 12, 2018 at 10:11 AM, bartc <bc at freeuk.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm almost ready to plonk you, but I think there is still SOME value
>>> in your posts. But please, stop denigrating what you don't understand.
>>
>>
>> And please try to see things from the pointer of view of a beginner or
>> outsider, where anything to do with Python seems to have a bewildering and
>> conflicting array of solutions.
> 
> The beginners I've worked with downloaded Python 3.6 and did "pip
> install numpy", successfully and without help from me. Sure, some
> beginners have issues, but they are usually willing to be helped. To
> be as aggressively resistant to the simplest suggestions the way
> you're being isn't the behaviour of a beginner in my experience.

I think the shame here is that there is a learning opportunity on both 
sides. As Paul says: by and large, the huge amount of work which the 
Python Packaging team, especially the pip developers, have put in has 
paid off. It's now usually possible to say: "pip install XXX" and have 
it work out of the box for any recentish version of Python on any 
recentish version of a mainstream OS. Once people understand the basics 
of using that "interface", many things become simple.

Unfortunately, where that *doesn't* work, it probably won't be because 
of low-hanging fruit: it'll be because of some strange interaction of 
different versions, odd leftover PATH setups, obscure Windows C Runtime 
redistribution issues, poor encoding interactions between Python and the 
Windows console, and so on.

All of these admit of solutions (if only by way of more informative 
error messages and useful FAQs) but they take time and patience to 
reproduce and work through. Many people -- and especially beginners -- 
don't really have the time or the inclination to follow through. They're 
not really interested in the mechanics of pip or the interaction of 
Python with the Windows installation subsystem. They just want to use 
numpy or pygame, or whatever.

Where there *are* people who are willing to take the time to work things 
through, we [the Python community and especially the packaging/pip crew] 
can welcome them and try to identify weak spots in our own story. But of 
course we react poorly if someone wants merely to dismiss stuff. 
(Typical tweet: "Sigh; Python packaging is still broken!").

I've actually been installing pygame quite a few times recently as part 
of a Coding Dojo I help to run once a term at a school in South London. 
And, even with the wonderful packaging work which the pygame guys have 
done to get wheels on PyPI, it's still sometimes a little painful. Of 
course, in that context, I'm just hustling to get people up-and-running 
and I'll do whatever it takes without stopping to take notes. So I 
sympathise when people say it's not easy for them. But not when they're 
dismissive about it.

TJG