From arj.python at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 00:05:55 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 09:05:55 +0400
Subject: Packaging/MANIFEST.in: Incude All, Exclude .gitignore
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=zcMbvSwf6qp-P0U7uukFS-mB=YYw=2O6ZgCcd8bJWrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings list,

SInce i have a .gitignore, how do i exclude
all files and folders listed by my gitignore?
How do i include everything by default?

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Mon Mar  1 00:44:39 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 18:44:39 +1300
Subject: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <mailman.234.1614471464.14271.python-list@python.org>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.234.1614471464.14271.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ia3da7Fu7b3U1@mid.individual.net>

On 28/02/21 1:17 pm, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> [its length in bytes] is presented via the object's __len__ method,

> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
> the subboxes.

You're misusing __len__ here. If an object is iterable and
also has a __len__, its __len__ should return the number of
items you would get if you iterated over it. Anything else
is confusing and can lead to trouble, as you found here.

> But is there a cleaner way to do this?

Yes. Give up on using __len__ to get the length in bytes,
and provide another way to do that.

-- 
Greg


From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Mar  1 06:29:34 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 22:29:34 +1100
Subject: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <3a38a712-60ec-c8aa-5c85-bb8d65a047fd@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <3a38a712-60ec-c8aa-5c85-bb8d65a047fd@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <YDzQHl6CeY0PdmAg@cskk.homeip.net>

On 01Mar2021 00:06, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>I'm not seeing a huge problem here:
>
>Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928 
>64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
>Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> import time
>>>> class A:
>...     def __len__(self):
>...         return 1024**3
>...     def __iter__(self):
>...         yield from ()
>...
>>>> a = A()
>>>> len(a)
>1073741824
>>>> s = time.time()
>>>> list(a)
>[]
>>>> print(time.time() - s)
>0.16294455528259277

3.9.1 on MacOS: 14.529589891433716
3.9.2 on MacOS: instant again

Interesting. - Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 09:10:55 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 14:10:55 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: weirdness with list()
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.234.1614471464.14271.python-list@python.org>
 <ia3da7Fu7b3U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <s1islf$15d4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-01, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> On 28/02/21 1:17 pm, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> [its length in bytes] is presented via the object's __len__ method,
>
>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>> the subboxes.
>
> You're misusing __len__ here. If an object is iterable and
> also has a __len__, its __len__ should return the number of
> items you would get if you iterated over it. Anything else
> is confusing and can lead to trouble, as you found here.

That was certainly my reaction. Can you imagine the confusion if len()
of a list returned the number of bytes required for srorage insttead
of the number of elements?

>> But is there a cleaner way to do this?
>
> Yes. Give up on using __len__ to get the length in bytes,
> and provide another way to do that.




From garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk  Mon Mar  1 08:04:16 2021
From: garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk (garabik-news-2005-05 at kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:04:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: grc 1.12 released
Message-ID: <s1ioog$1n6h$1@gioia.aioe.org>


This is generic colouriser, version 1.12

grc is a colouriser configured by regular expressions, including
a simple command line wrapper for some commonly used unix commands.

Notable changes in this version:
  - add several configuration files
  - pass invalid UTF-8 unchanged, if possible
  - fix other minor bugs

License: GPL (any version)

URL: http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/software/grc.html

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garab?k http://kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ kassiopeia.juls.savba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!

From manfred.schmidt at posteo.de  Mon Mar  1 12:46:45 2021
From: manfred.schmidt at posteo.de (manfred.schmidt at posteo.de)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2021 18:46:45 +0100
Subject: try to install Python3.9.2 / setup failed
In-Reply-To: <991c99720af5b2c212476899209aab82@posteo.de>
References: <991c99720af5b2c212476899209aab82@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <4c4ad8369d630978f3b2a1e41d2f8a81@posteo.de>

Hello Python Team,

i tried to install SW above; the installation stopped with the
message
"one or more issues caused the setup to fail.
Please the issues and then retry

0x80070642 installation stopped by user"

What must i do go get the SW installed?
Windows 10, file "python-3.9.2-amd64.exe"

Best Regards from Lake of Constance
Manfred Schmidt

log-file:
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i001: Burn v3.11.1.2318, Windows v10.0 
(Build 19041: Service Pack 0), path: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\{2E17A51D-2D6F-45A4-A0FE-7965AAB86107}\.cr\python-3.9.2-amd64.exe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'ActionLikeInstalling' to value 'Installing'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'ActionLikeInstallation' to value 'Setup'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'ShortVersion' to value '3.9'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'ShortVersionNoDot' to value '39'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'WinVer' to value '3.9'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'WinVerNoDot' to value '39'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'InstallAllUsers' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'InstallLauncherAllUsers' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'TargetDir' to value ''
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'DefaultAllUsersTargetDir' to value 
'[ProgramFiles64Folder]Python[WinVerNoDot]'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'TargetPlatform' to value 'x64'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'DefaultJustForMeTargetDir' to value 
'[LocalAppDataFolder]Programs\Python\Python[WinVerNoDot]'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'OptionalFeaturesRegistryKey' to value 
'Software\Python\PythonCore\[WinVer]\InstalledFeatures'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'TargetDirRegistryKey' to value 
'Software\Python\PythonCore\[WinVer]\InstallPath'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'DefaultCustomTargetDir' to value ''
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'InstallAllUsersState' to value 'enabled'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'InstallLauncherAllUsersState' to value 'enabled'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'CustomInstallLauncherAllUsersState' to value 
'[InstallLauncherAllUsersState]'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'TargetDirState' to value 'enabled'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'CustomBrowseButtonState' to value 'enabled'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_core' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_exe' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_dev' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_lib' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_test' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_doc' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_tools' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_tcltk' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_pip' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_launcher' to value '-1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'Include_launcherState' to value 'enabled'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_symbols' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Include_debug' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'LauncherOnly' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'DetectedLauncher' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'DetectedOldLauncher' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'AssociateFiles' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'Shortcuts' to value '1'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'PrependPath' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'CompileAll' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing numeric variable 
'SimpleInstall' to value '0'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Initializing string variable 
'SimpleInstallDescription' to value ''
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i009: Command Line: 
'"-burn.clean.room=C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\Downloads\python-3.9.2-amd64.exe" -burn.filehandle.attached=544 
-burn.filehandle.self=552'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleOriginalSource' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\Downloads\python-3.9.2-amd64.exe'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleOriginalSourceFolder' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\Downloads\'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 (64-bit)_20210301184404.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleName' to value 'Python 3.9.2 (64-bit)'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleManufacturer' to value 'Python Software Foundation'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'CRTInstalled' to value 1
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Did not find C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\Downloads\unattend.xml
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'ActionLikeInstalling' to value 'Installing'
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'ActionLikeInstallation' to value 'Setup'
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting version variable 
'WixBundleFileVersion' to value '3.9.2150.0'
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Target OS is Windows 10 or later
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i100: Detect begin, 52 packages
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'InstallLauncherAllUsers' to value 1
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'Include_launcher' to value 1
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'DetectedLauncher' to value 1
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'Include_launcherState' to value 'disable'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'InstallLauncherAllUsersState' to value 'disable'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'AssociateFiles' to value 1
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: ucrt_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: ucrt_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: core_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
core_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: core_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: core_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
core_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
core_JustForMe_d, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: dev_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: dev_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: dev_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: dev_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: exe_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: exe_AllUsers, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: exe_AllUsers, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
exe_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: exe_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: exe_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: exe_JustForMe, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: exe_JustForMe, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
exe_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: exe_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: lib_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
lib_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: lib_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: lib_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
lib_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: lib_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: test_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
test_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: test_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: test_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
test_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
test_JustForMe_d, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: doc_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: doc_AllUsers, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: doc_AllUsers, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: doc_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: doc_JustForMe, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: doc_JustForMe, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: tools_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: tools_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: tcltk_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_AllUsers, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_AllUsers, 
feature: AssociateFiles, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_AllUsers, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_pdb, feature: Symbols, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_d, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_d, feature: DebugBinaries, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: tcltk_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_JustForMe, 
feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_JustForMe, 
feature: AssociateFiles, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: tcltk_JustForMe, 
feature: Shortcuts, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_pdb, feature: Symbols, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_d, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_d, feature: DebugBinaries, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
launcher_AllUsers, state: Present, cached: Complete
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
launcher_AllUsers, feature: DefaultFeature, state: Local
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
launcher_AllUsers, feature: AssociateFiles, state: Local
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
launcher_JustForMe, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
launcher_JustForMe, feature: DefaultFeature, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i104: Detected package: 
launcher_JustForMe, feature: AssociateFiles, state: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: pip_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: pip_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: path_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: path_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileall_AllUsers, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileallO_AllUsers, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileallOO_AllUsers, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileall_JustForMe, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileallO_JustForMe, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i101: Detected package: 
compileallOO_JustForMe, state: Absent, cached: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Setting string variable 
'TargetDir' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python39'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i199: Detect complete, result: 0x0
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i000: Disable control 
InstallLauncherAllUsers
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:04]i052: Condition 'not WixBundleElevated 
and (InstallAllUsers or (Include_launcher and InstallLauncherAllUsers 
and not DetectedLauncher))' evaluates to false.
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'PrependPath' to value 1
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting numeric variable 
'CompileAll' to value 0
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'ActionLikeInstalling' to value 'Installing'
[3314:0984][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'ActionLikeInstallation' to value 'Setup'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i200: Plan begin, 52 packages, action: 
Install
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and not 
CRTInstalled and (Include_core or Include_exe or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and not 
CRTInstalled and (Include_core or Include_exe or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: ucrt_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
not CRTInstalled and (Include_core or Include_exe or Include_pip) and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
not CRTInstalled and (Include_core or Include_exe or Include_pip) and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: core_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: core_AllUsers_pdb, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: core_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not 
LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_core_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_000_core_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_core_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_000_core_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_core or Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and 
Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: dev_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: dev_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_dev_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_001_dev_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_dev_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_001_dev_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_dev and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not LauncherOnly' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not LauncherOnly' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
exe_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: exe_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_symbols and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_symbols and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: exe_AllUsers_pdb, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_debug and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_debug and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: exe_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not LauncherOnly' 
evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and not LauncherOnly' 
evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
exe_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_exe_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_002_exe_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_exe_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_002_exe_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_symbols and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_symbols and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_debug and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
(Include_exe or Include_launcher or Include_pip) and Include_debug and 
not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: lib_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: lib_AllUsers_pdb, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: lib_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_lib_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_003_lib_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_lib_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_003_lib_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_lib and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: test_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: test_AllUsers_pdb, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: test_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_test_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_004_test_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_test_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_004_test_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_test and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_doc and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_doc and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
doc_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: doc_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_doc and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_doc and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
doc_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_doc_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_005_doc_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_doc_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_005_doc_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tools and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tools and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: tools_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tools and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tools and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_tools_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_006_tools_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_tools_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_006_tools_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 3 msi features for package: 
tcltk_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: AssociateFiles, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: tcltk_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 1 msi features for package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_pdb
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Symbols, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: tcltk_AllUsers_pdb, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 1 msi features for package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_d
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DebugBinaries, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: tcltk_AllUsers_d, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 3 msi features for package: 
tcltk_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: AssociateFiles, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Shortcuts, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_tcltk_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_007_tcltk_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_tcltk_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_007_tcltk_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_symbols and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 1 msi features for package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_pdb
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: Symbols, state: 
Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute action: 
AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_tcltk and Include_debug and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to 
false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 1 msi features for package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_d
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DebugBinaries, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition '(InstallAllUsers or 
InstallLauncherAllUsers) and Include_launcher and not DetectedLauncher' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition '(InstallAllUsers or 
InstallLauncherAllUsers) and Include_launcher and not DetectedLauncher' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
launcher_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Local, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: None, rollback action: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: AssociateFiles, 
state: Local, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: None, rollback action: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: launcher_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, 
package scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not (InstallAllUsers or 
InstallLauncherAllUsers) and Include_launcher and not DetectedLauncher' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not (InstallAllUsers or 
InstallLauncherAllUsers) and Include_launcher and not DetectedLauncher' 
evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i204: Plan 2 msi features for package: 
launcher_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: DefaultFeature, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i203: Planned feature: AssociateFiles, 
state: Absent, default requested: Unknown, ba requested: Local, execute 
action: AddLocal, rollback action: Remove
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_pip and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
Include_pip and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: pip_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_pip and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
Include_pip and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_pip_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_008_pip_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_pip_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_008_pip_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
PrependPath and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
PrependPath and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w322: Skipping cross-scope dependency 
registration on package: path_AllUsers, bundle scope: PerUser, package 
scope: PerMachine
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
PrependPath and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
PrependPath and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to true.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleRollbackLog_path_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_009_path_JustForMe_rollback.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Setting string variable 
'WixBundleLog_path_JustForMe' to value 'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\Python 3.9.2 
(64-bit)_20210301184404_009_path_JustForMe.log'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileall_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileallO_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileallOO_AllUsers
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileall_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileallO_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i052: Condition 'not InstallAllUsers and 
CompileAll and not LauncherOnly' evaluates to false.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]w321: Skipping dependency registration 
on package with no dependency providers: compileallOO_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: ucrt_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: ucrt_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: core_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
core_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: core_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: core_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
core_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: core_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: dev_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: dev_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: dev_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: dev_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: exe_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: exe_AllUsers_pdb, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: exe_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: exe_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
exe_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: exe_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: lib_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: lib_AllUsers_pdb, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: lib_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: lib_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
lib_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: lib_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: test_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
test_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: test_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: test_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
test_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: test_JustForMe_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: doc_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: doc_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: tools_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: tools_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: tcltk_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
tcltk_AllUsers_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: tcltk_AllUsers_d, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: tcltk_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_pdb, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
tcltk_JustForMe_d, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
launcher_AllUsers, state: Present, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
launcher_JustForMe, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: pip_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: pip_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: path_AllUsers, 
state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba requested: Absent, execute: 
None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: path_JustForMe, 
state: Absent, default requested: Present, ba requested: Present, 
execute: Install, rollback: Uninstall, cache: Yes, uncache: No, 
dependency: Register
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileall_AllUsers, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileallO_AllUsers, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileallOO_AllUsers, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileall_JustForMe, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileallO_JustForMe, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i201: Planned package: 
compileallOO_JustForMe, state: Absent, default requested: Absent, ba 
requested: Absent, execute: None, rollback: None, cache: No, uncache: 
No, dependency: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i299: Plan complete, result: 0x0
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i300: Apply begin
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i370: Session begin, registration key: 
SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}, 
options: 0x7, disable resume: No
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:09]i000: Caching bundle from: 
'C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Temp\{D5330290-DA77-4169-AAA1-AB9F33B829F7}\.be\python-3.9.2-amd64.exe' 
to: 'C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}\python-3.9.2-amd64.exe'
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i320: Registering bundle dependency 
provider: CPython-3.9, version: 3.9.2150.0
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i371: Updating session, registration 
key: 
SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}, 
resume: Active, restart initiated: No, disable resume: No
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
core_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\core_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{1F050E31-5E11-4184-B791-8FD5070C55AA}v3.9.2150.0\core.msi.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i323: Registering package dependency 
provider: {1F050E31-5E11-4184-B791-8FD5070C55AA}, version: 3.9.2150.0, 
package: core_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i301: Applying execute package: 
core_JustForMe, action: Install, path: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{1F050E31-5E11-4184-B791-8FD5070C55AA}v3.9.2150.0\core.msi, 
arguments: ' ARPSYSTEMCOMPONENT="1" MSIFASTINSTALL="7" 
TARGETDIR="C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python39" 
OPTIONALFEATURESREGISTRYKEY="Software\Python\PythonCore\3.9\InstalledFeatures"'
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
dev_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\dev_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{EA736F6F-172B-4D18-831E-B5DFB2EA5057}v3.9.2150.0\dev.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
exe_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\exe_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{701FA3EE-56EB-422A-A2D9-FFFE12E53A5E}v3.9.2150.0\exe.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
lib_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\lib_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{D5638C16-6D72-4A80-B101-07B6B9C92273}v3.9.2150.0\lib.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
test_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\test_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{73AB4143-E6F9-4AFB-B0F5-B0AE869B37FB}v3.9.2150.0\test.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:10]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
doc_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\doc_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{FDD5FBD7-2E89-496E-B0CE-19FA26F3C347}v3.9.2150.0\doc.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:11]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
tools_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\tools_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{D345FB80-FF7C-4DF0-B60A-924B7F7D1974}v3.9.2150.0\tools.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:11]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
tcltk_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\tcltk_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{0281F202-0833-49D8-8145-530021FF2CA2}v3.9.2150.0\tcltk.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:11]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
pip_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\pip_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{ECCE5BC5-9400-4BB7-82F4-3699308CCC18}v3.9.2150.0\pip.msi.
[3314:30A8][2021-03-01T18:44:11]i305: Verified acquired payload: 
path_JustForMe at path: C:\Users\Manfred Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\.unverified\path_JustForMe, moving to: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{BA86AE20-66E7-48D9-BD8B-8FAD5BDB7882}v3.9.2150.0\path.msi.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]e000: Error 0x80070642: Failed to 
install MSI package.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]e000: Error 0x80070642: Failed to 
configure per-user MSI package.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i319: Applied execute package: 
core_JustForMe, result: 0x80070642, restart: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]e000: Error 0x80070642: Failed to 
execute MSI package.
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i318: Skipped rollback of package: 
core_JustForMe, action: Uninstall, already: Absent
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i319: Applied rollback package: 
core_JustForMe, result: 0x0, restart: None
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i329: Removed package dependency 
provider: {1F050E31-5E11-4184-B791-8FD5070C55AA}, package: 
core_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i351: Removing cached package: 
core_JustForMe, from path: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{1F050E31-5E11-4184-B791-8FD5070C55AA}v3.9.2150.0\
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i329: Removed package dependency 
provider: {B2A61038-1479-48B4-BE08-91317E5F459B}, package: 
ucrt_JustForMe
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i372: Session end, registration key: 
SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}, 
resume: None, restart: None, disable resume: No
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i330: Removed bundle dependency 
provider: CPython-3.9
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i352: Removing cached bundle: 
{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}, from path: C:\Users\Manfred 
Schmidt\AppData\Local\Package 
Cache\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}\
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:12]i371: Updating session, registration 
key: 
SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall\{3973ea30-aa45-4804-9840-93a305a0d632}, 
resume: None, restart initiated: No, disable resume: No
[3314:32E8][2021-03-01T18:44:13]i399: Apply complete, result: 
0x80070642, restart: None, ba requested restart:  No



From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Mar  1 16:59:16 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 08:59:16 +1100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <YD1jtJj7u+m945Vk@cskk.homeip.net>

On 28Feb2021 23:47, Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
>>
>>     def __iter__(self):
>>         yield from ()
>
>Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
>this before:
>
>yield from ()
>
>What is it doing?
>What do the () represent in this context?

It's an empty tuple. The yield from iterates over the tuple, yielding 
zero times. There are shorter ways to write that (eg outright omitting 
the yield), except when you're writing a generator function with only a 
single yield statement - then you need something like that to make it a 
generator.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Mar  1 16:56:34 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 08:56:34 +1100
Subject: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1islf$15d4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1islf$15d4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <YD1jElUkS706T/RO@cskk.homeip.net>

On 01Mar2021 14:10, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>That was certainly my reaction. Can you imagine the confusion if len()
>of a list returned the number of bytes required for srorage insttead
>of the number of elements?

Yeah, well the ancestry of these classes is a binary 
deserialise/serialise base class, so __len__ _is_ the natural thing - 
the length of the object when serialised.

The conflation came when making a recursive hierarchical system to parse 
ISO14496 files (MOV, MP4). These have variable sized binary records 
which can themselves enclose other records, often an array of other 
records.

That led me down the path of making an __iter__ (not previously 
present), without considering the __len__ interaction.

I've split these things apart now, and will probably go the full step of 
not providing __iter__ at all, instead requiring things to reach for the 
.boxes attribute or a generic .subboxes() method, since not all these 
things have .boxes (depends on the record type).

The design question is answered, and I consider myself at least somewhat 
spanked. However, the primary question was about sidestepping list()'s 
preallocation feature. That is also answered.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 14:09:52 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 13:09:52 -0600
Subject: is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable
 program or batch file.
In-Reply-To: <E3188878-71D7-4042-9E9D-4833A74992C7@hxcore.ol>
References: <E3188878-71D7-4042-9E9D-4833A74992C7@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTw_WoSKCWQL=RKhdUALFbMF=puMyRoc4Q7JdzC-pA8=Fg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:56 PM singh.veer99999--- via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>    Dear Sir/Madam
>
>    Sir I am facing the issue from 10 days. And I tried all the ways to remove
>    this or to come out of this problem
>    but as i try to install some PYTEST or OPENPYXL packages using pip it
>    gives the notification that there is no writeable path present due to that
>    I am not ?is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable
>    program or batch file.?  I am facing problem in running the test cases in
>    Pycharm for the PYTEST
>    please help me pls

Usual stanza:

How exactly did you try to install them?
Which OS are you running?
What version of Python?

Thank you.

>
>
>
>
>
>    Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
> References
>
>    Visible links
>    1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From pablogsal at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 12:45:41 2021
From: pablogsal at gmail.com (Pablo Galindo Salgado)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 17:45:41 +0000
Subject: [RELEASE] Python 3.10.0a6 is available,
 now with 100% more pattern matching
Message-ID: <CAFjbc8H7HcU+Pczd9Ty_JiVfZUoa2=UjZktR6Wr8MjJtNRS5dQ@mail.gmail.com>

Remember us? It's your friendly CPython release team and we have something
we think you may like: The new alpha release of Python 3.10 is here, now
with 100% more pattern matching. If I were you, I would download it and
start playing with it. Extra points if you report us any bugs you find
along the way! Are you confused about all this pattern matching business?
Fear not, this release also includes some fantastic documentation and some
shiny new "What's new" entries.

Check them here and tell us how we can improve it:

What's new: https://docs.python.org/3.10/whatsnew/3.10.html
Tutorial:
https://docs.python.org/3.10/tutorial/controlflow.html#match-statements

Go get the new alpha here:

https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-3100a6/


*Note: The alpha was officially released yesterday, but my email client
failed to deliver this email to the mailing lists so I am reposting it.*
**This is an early developer preview of Python 3.10**

# Major new features of the 3.10 series, compared to 3.9

Python 3.10 is still in development.  This release, 3.10.0a6 is the sixth
of seven planned alpha releases.
Alpha releases are intended to make it easier to test the current state of
new features and bug fixes and to test the release process.
During the alpha phase, features may be added up until the start of the
beta phase (2021-05-03) and, if necessary, may be modified or deleted up
until the release candidate phase (2021-10-04).  Please keep in mind that
this is a preview release and its use is **not** recommended for production
environments.

Many new features for Python 3.10 are still being planned and written.
Among the new major
new features and changes so far:

* [PEP 623](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0623/) -- Remove wstr from
Unicode
* [PEP 604](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0604/) -- Allow writing
union types as X | Y
* [PEP 612](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0612/) -- Parameter
Specification Variables
* [PEP 626](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0626/) -- Precise line
numbers for debugging and other tools.
* [bpo-38605](https://bugs.python.org/issue38605): `from __future__ import
annotations` ([PEP 563](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0563/)) is now
the default.
* [PEP 618 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0618/) -- Add Optional
Length-Checking To zip.
* [bpo-12782](https://bugs.python.org/issue12782): Parenthesized context
managers are now officially allowed.
* [PEP 632 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0632/) -- Deprecate
distutils module.
* [PEP 613 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0613/) -- Explicit Type
Aliases
* [PEP 634 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0634/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Specification
* [PEP 635 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0635/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Motivation and Rationale
* [PEP 636 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0636/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Tutorial

* <small>(Hey, **fellow core developer,** if a feature you find important
is missing from this list, [let Pablo know](mailto:pablogsal at python.org
).)</small>

The next pre-release of Python 3.10 will be 3.10.0a7 ( last alpha release),
currently scheduled for Monday, 2021-04-05.

# More resources

* [Online Documentation](https://docs.python.org/3.10/)
* [PEP 619](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0619/), 3.10 Release
Schedule
* Report bugs at [https://bugs.python.org](https://bugs.python.org).
* [Help fund Python and its community](/psf/donations/).

# And now for something completely different
Schwarzschild wormholes, also known as Einstein?Rosen bridges (named after
Albert Einstein and Nathan Rosen), are connections between areas of space
that can be modelled as vacuum solutions to the Einstein field equations,
and that are now understood to be intrinsic parts of the maximally extended
version of the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole with
no charge and no rotation. Here, "maximally extended" refers to the idea
that the spacetime should not have any "edges": it should be possible to
continue this path arbitrarily far into the particle's future or past for
any possible trajectory of a free-falling particle (following a geodesic in
the spacetime).

Although Schwarzschild wormholes are not traversable in both directions,
their existence inspired Kip Thorne to imagine traversable wormholes
created by holding the "throat" of a Schwarzschild wormhole open with
exotic matter (material that has negative mass/energy).

Regards from rainy London,

Pablo Galindo Salgado

From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 17:51:02 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 23:51:02 +0100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
Message-ID: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a curiosity. Python, as many languages, has assert as a
keyword. Can't it be implemented as a function? Is there an advantage
to have it as a keyword?

From mats at wichmann.us  Mon Mar  1 18:15:21 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 16:15:21 -0700
Subject: try to install Python3.9.2 / setup failed
In-Reply-To: <4c4ad8369d630978f3b2a1e41d2f8a81@posteo.de>
References: <991c99720af5b2c212476899209aab82@posteo.de>
 <4c4ad8369d630978f3b2a1e41d2f8a81@posteo.de>
Message-ID: <051e4cbd-cd35-231e-6169-f88b91c338c9@wichmann.us>

On 3/1/21 10:46 AM, manfred.schmidt at posteo.de wrote:
> Hello Python Team,
> 
> i tried to install SW above; the installation stopped with the
> message
> "one or more issues caused the setup to fail.
> Please the issues and then retry
> 
> 0x80070642 installation stopped by user"
> 
> What must i do go get the SW installed?
> Windows 10, file "python-3.9.2-amd64.exe"
> 
> Best Regards from Lake of Constance
> Manfred Schmidt

With all due respect to the Microsoft folks here, Windows installation 
is a bit of a mess.  When it finds something it doesn't like, it tends 
to throw its hands up and give you back an error that has a chance of 
not being terribly helpful to you, the user: you get a hex code, and an 
error string that doesn't seem to apply (pretty sure your installation 
wasn't stopped by _you_, despite what it says, though it _possibly_ 
could have been stopped by an external actor, like an antivirus 
program). Often these kinds of problems don't have a lot to do with the 
thing being installed, and do have a lot to do with other conditions.

In my experience, this means you need to run some of the fixit tools to 
make sure your system doesn't have corruption that is confusing it.  Try 
the ones from Microsoft - there's usually no need for third-party ones. 
I've had good luck with the one in the following link, though obviously 
no guarantees it will take care of this _specific_ issue:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/fix-problems-that-block-programs-from-being-installed-or-removed-cca7d1b6-65a9-3d98-426b-e9f927e1eb4d

From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Mar  1 15:48:57 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 21:48:57 +0100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <114945fd-cc32-fff5-0100-17a296e5af20@web.de>

On 01/03/2021 00:47, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> 
>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
>>
>>      def __iter__(self):
>>          yield from ()
> 
> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> this before:
> 
> yield from ()
> 
> What is it doing?
> What do the () represent in this context?

The 0-tuple ;)

yield from x

is syntactic sugar for

for item in x:
     yield item

Instead of () you can use any empty iterable.
If x is empty nothing is ever yielded.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 16:01:50 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:01:50 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a curiosity. Python, as many languages, has assert as a
> keyword. Can't it be implemented as a function? Is there an advantage
> to have it as a keyword?

It could, but it would need some magic. A lot of test frameworks have
their own set of assertions and you have to pick the one you want -
for instance:

assertEqual(x, y)

instead of

assert x == y

The trouble is that, if you write a function for this, it will just
get True or False, without any explanation of the cause - making it
somewhat unhelpful when something goes wrong. To compensate, function
equivalents inevitably have to have myriad types of assertions, where
the language just needs one.

ChrisA

From dieter at handshake.de  Tue Mar  2 12:33:58 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 18:33:58 +0100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net>
	<s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <24638.30470.76978.418644@ixdm.fritz.box>

Alan Gauld wrote at 2021-2-28 23:47 +0000:
>yield from ()

"yield from iterator" is similar to "for i in iterator: yield i" (with
special handling when data/exceptions are injected into the generator).

Thus, "yield from ()" does essentially nothing with the side effect
that the containing function is treated as generator function.



--
Dieter

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 16:51:59 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 08:51:59 +1100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <24638.30470.76978.418644@ixdm.fritz.box>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <24638.30470.76978.418644@ixdm.fritz.box>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqg4jgn=2Pjx=+pgaDz30qSVd1pBBetP1hDd0fhCNM+8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 8:21 AM Dieter Maurer <dieter at handshake.de> wrote:
>
> Alan Gauld wrote at 2021-2-28 23:47 +0000:
> >yield from ()
>
> "yield from iterator" is similar to "for i in iterator: yield i" (with
> special handling when data/exceptions are injected into the generator).
>
> Thus, "yield from ()" does essentially nothing with the side effect
> that the containing function is treated as generator function.
>

Another way to write the same thing is:

if False: yield None

This, too, will do nothing - in fact, it will be optimized out
completely in current versions of CPython - but, again, will force the
function to be a generator.

ChrisA

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar  1 19:07:27 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 00:07:27 +0000
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s1jvjv$isp$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 28/02/2021 23:47, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> 
>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over 
>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
>>
>>     def __iter__(self):
>>         yield from ()
> 
> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> this before:
> 
> yield from ()
> 
> What is it doing?
> What do the () represent in this context?
> 

Thanks for the replies.
I should have known better but I was thinking some
cleverness with callables and completely forgot
the empty tuple syntax. Oops!

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From roland.em0001 at googlemail.com  Tue Mar  2 03:20:10 2021
From: roland.em0001 at googlemail.com (Roland Mueller)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 10:20:10 +0200
Subject: is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable
 program or batch file.
In-Reply-To: <E3188878-71D7-4042-9E9D-4833A74992C7@hxcore.ol>
References: <E3188878-71D7-4042-9E9D-4833A74992C7@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <CALk2KRVf_KfrqJJQ5NrP8864xVc-GArzdJ11q52yeecDpbHBaA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
this is windows setup issue related to the fact that python binary is not
in execution path.

For setting up you may find instructions by searching for "windows 10 put
python to path". One result is following page:
https://superuser.com/questions/143119/how-do-i-add-python-to-the-windows-path





ma 1. maalisk. 2021 klo 20.54 singh.veer99999--- via Python-list (
python-list at python.org) kirjoitti:

>    Dear Sir/Madam
>
>    Sir I am facing the issue from 10 days. And I tried all the ways to
> remove
>    this or to come out of this problem
>    but as i try to install some PYTEST or OPENPYXL packages using pip it
>    gives the notification that there is no writeable path present due to
> that
>    I am not ?is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable
>    program or batch file.?  I am facing problem in running the test cases
> in
>    Pycharm for the PYTEST
>    please help me pls
>
>
>
>
>
>    Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
> References
>
>    Visible links
>    1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 17:09:10 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:09:10 +0000
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>

There is also the, I think seldom used, feature that calling python with
'-O' removes all assert statements at parse/compile time (I believe for
performance reasons)

So for example:

$ python -c 'assert False'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
AssertionError

But:

$ python -O -c 'assert False'
[no output]
$

Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
would be much harder to implement if assert were a standard function (and
re-bindable), as the 'arguments' in the assert construct are not even
executed when '-O' is used (this is the performance gain):

$ python -O -c 'assert DoesNotExist'
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<string>", line 1, in <module>
NameError: name 'DoesNotExist' is not defined

vs.

$ python -O -c 'assert DoesNotExist'
[no output]
$

so the compiler would have to do a lot of work to identify assert calls and
remove them.

Steve



On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 9:04 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 7:53 AM Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a curiosity. Python, as many languages, has assert as a
> > keyword. Can't it be implemented as a function? Is there an advantage
> > to have it as a keyword?
>
> It could, but it would need some magic. A lot of test frameworks have
> their own set of assertions and you have to pick the one you want -
> for instance:
>
> assertEqual(x, y)
>
> instead of
>
> assert x == y
>
> The trouble is that, if you write a function for this, it will just
> get True or False, without any explanation of the cause - making it
> somewhat unhelpful when something goes wrong. To compensate, function
> equivalents inevitably have to have myriad types of assertions, where
> the language just needs one.
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 14:16:05 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 06:16:05 +1100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr-J+Z0PFLXTcbTK+abJ9ddioUrJKfm7zfCA-=dhxG5EA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 5:51 AM Alan Gauld via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>
> > BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
> > the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
> >
> >     def __iter__(self):
> >         yield from ()
>
> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> this before:
>
> yield from ()
>
> What is it doing?
> What do the () represent in this context?
>

It's yielding all the elements in an empty tuple. Which is none of
them, meaning that - for this simple example - iterating over the
object will produce zero results.

ChrisA

From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Mar  1 15:48:57 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 21:48:57 +0100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <114945fd-cc32-fff5-0100-17a296e5af20@web.de>

On 01/03/2021 00:47, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:
> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>
>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
>>
>>      def __iter__(self):
>>          yield from ()
>
> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> this before:
>
> yield from ()
>
> What is it doing?
> What do the () represent in this context?

The 0-tuple ;)

yield from x

is syntactic sugar for

for item in x:
     yield item

Instead of () you can use any empty iterable.
If x is empty nothing is ever yielded.

From pablogsal at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 15:00:54 2021
From: pablogsal at gmail.com (Pablo Galindo Salgado)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 20:00:54 +0000
Subject: Python 3.10.0a6 is available, now with 100% more pattern matching
Message-ID: <CAFjbc8ECStWrNKBYL336NzJWg5BE-+p-ihw_ZTA_ett=GTiNrA@mail.gmail.com>

Remember us? It's your friendly CPython release team and we have something
we think you may like: The new alpha release of Python 3.10 is here, now
with 100% more pattern matching. If I were you, I would download it and
start playing with it. Extra points if you report us any bugs you find
along the way! Are you confused about all this pattern matching business?
Fear not, this release also includes some fantastic documentation and some
shiny new "What's new" entries.

Check them here and tell us how we can improve it:

What's new: https://docs.python.org/3.10/whatsnew/3.10.html
Tutorial:
https://docs.python.org/3.10/tutorial/controlflow.html#match-statements

Go get the new alpha here:

https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-3100a6/

**This is an early developer preview of Python 3.10**

# Major new features of the 3.10 series, compared to 3.9

Python 3.10 is still in development.  This release, 3.10.0a6 is the sixth
of seven planned alpha releases.
Alpha releases are intended to make it easier to test the current state of
new features and bug fixes and to test the release process.
During the alpha phase, features may be added up until the start of the
beta phase (2021-05-03) and, if necessary, may be modified or deleted up
until the release candidate phase (2021-10-04).  Please keep in mind that
this is a preview release and its use is **not** recommended for production
environments.

Many new features for Python 3.10 are still being planned and written.
Among the new major
new features and changes so far:

* [PEP 623](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0623/) -- Remove wstr from
Unicode
* [PEP 604](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0604/) -- Allow writing
union types as X | Y
* [PEP 612](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0612/) -- Parameter
Specification Variables
* [PEP 626](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0626/) -- Precise line
numbers for debugging and other tools.
* [bpo-38605](https://bugs.python.org/issue38605): `from __future__ import
annotations` ([PEP 563](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0563/)) is now
the default.
* [PEP 618 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0618/) -- Add Optional
Length-Checking To zip.
* [bpo-12782](https://bugs.python.org/issue12782): Parenthesized context
managers are now officially allowed.
* [PEP 632 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0632/) -- Deprecate
distutils module.
* [PEP 613 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0613/) -- Explicit Type
Aliases
* [PEP 634 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0634/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Specification
* [PEP 635 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0635/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Motivation and Rationale
* [PEP 636 ](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0636/) -- Structural
Pattern Matching: Tutorial


* <small>(Hey, **fellow core developer,** if a feature you find important
is missing from this list, [let Pablo know](mailto:pablogsal at python.org
).)</small>

The next pre-release of Python 3.10 will be 3.10.0a7 ( last alpha release),
currently scheduled for Monday, 2021-04-05.

# More resources

* [Online Documentation](https://docs.python.org/3.10/)
* [PEP 619](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0619/), 3.10 Release
Schedule
* Report bugs at [https://bugs.python.org](https://bugs.python.org).
* [Help fund Python and its community](/psf/donations/).

# And now for something completely different
Schwarzschild wormholes, also known as Einstein?Rosen bridges (named after
Albert Einstein and Nathan Rosen), are connections between areas of space
that can be modelled as vacuum solutions to the Einstein field equations,
and that are now understood to be intrinsic parts of the maximally extended
version of the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole with
no charge and no rotation. Here, "maximally extended" refers to the idea
that the spacetime should not have any "edges": it should be possible to
continue this path arbitrarily far into the particle's future or past for
any possible trajectory of a free-falling particle (following a geodesic in
the spacetime).

Although Schwarzschild wormholes are not traversable in both directions,
their existence inspired Kip Thorne to imagine traversable wormholes
created by holding the "throat" of a Schwarzschild wormhole open with
exotic matter (material that has negative mass/energy).

Regards from rainy London,

Pablo Galindo Salgado

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Tue Mar  2 17:25:44 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 22:25:44 +0000
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 2 Mar 2021, at 20:54, Marco Sulla <Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ?I have a curiosity. Python, as many languages, has assert as a
> keyword. Can't it be implemented as a function? Is there an advantage
> to have it as a keyword?

assert condition, expression

Only is condition is false with expression be evaluated.
So you can safely do expensive things I the expression with incuring and cost if the condition is True.

With a function assert the 2nd part would have to evaluated regardless of the state of the condition.
Which would slow down the code for no benefit.

Barry

> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 17:56:50 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2021 23:56:50 +0100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CABbU2U9oWOvSbAjDb4QeEzZ-94Zh1+KdpEyOa4NcTb59n9HaGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2021 at 19:51, Alan Gauld via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> this before:
>
> yield from ()
>
> What is it doing?
> What do the () represent in this context?

It's the empty tuple.

From larry.martell at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 18:06:53 2021
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 15:06:53 -0800
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr-J+Z0PFLXTcbTK+abJ9ddioUrJKfm7zfCA-=dhxG5EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net> <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmr-J+Z0PFLXTcbTK+abJ9ddioUrJKfm7zfCA-=dhxG5EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwCsY659-P9GCR3uHkPpxJPVpctseFXONYUs2OWKMYXarV_kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 2:16 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 5:51 AM Alan Gauld via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> >
> > > BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
> > > the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
> > >
> > >     def __iter__(self):
> > >         yield from ()
> >
> > Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> > this before:
> >
> > yield from ()
> >
> > What is it doing?
> > What do the () represent in this context?
> >
>
> It's yielding all the elements in an empty tuple. Which is none of
> them, meaning that - for this simple example - iterating over the
> object will produce zero results.

I discovered something new (to me) yesterday. Was writing a unit test
for generator function and I found that none of the function got
executed at all until I iterated on the return value. It was blowing
my mind as I was debugging the test and had a BP set in the first line
of the function but it was not hit when I called the function.

From mirkok.lists at googlemail.com  Tue Mar  2 18:20:52 2021
From: mirkok.lists at googlemail.com (Mirko)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 00:20:52 +0100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>

Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
> Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it

It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.

In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
"assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
in production code.



From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 18:24:33 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 10:24:33 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
> > Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
>
> It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
> exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.
>
> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
> in production code.
>

Really?

if PRODUCTION:
    def assert(*a, **kw): pass

would work if it were a function :)

ChrisA

From hexamorph at gmx.net  Tue Mar  2 18:46:44 2021
From: hexamorph at gmx.net (Hexamorph)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 00:46:44 +0100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <603ECE64.2080105@gmx.net>

Am 03.03.2021 um 00:24 schrieb Chris Angelico:
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
>>> Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
>>
>> It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
>> exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.
>>
>> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
>> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
>> in production code.
>>
>
> Really?

Yes.

> if PRODUCTION:
>     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
>
> would work if it were a function :)

With the "if PRODUCTION" being superfluously in the production code
(not to mention the possible NameError otherwise).




From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 18:50:43 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 10:50:43 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <603ECE64.2080105@gmx.net>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <603ECE64.2080105@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq1Nga9KO_x1SPZng_O1sEG5YO2wKQq8fir4YkPSdAHpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:48 AM Hexamorph <hexamorph at gmx.net> wrote:
>
> Am 03.03.2021 um 00:24 schrieb Chris Angelico:
> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list
> > <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
> >>> Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
> >>
> >> It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
> >> exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.
> >>
> >> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
> >> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
> >> in production code.
> >>
> >
> > Really?
>
> Yes.
>
> > if PRODUCTION:
> >     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> >
> > would work if it were a function :)
>
> With the "if PRODUCTION" being superfluously in the production code
> (not to mention the possible NameError otherwise).
>

Whatever method you have for determining whether you're in debug or
prod, you can use it to decide whether or not to create the function.
It's that easy.

That said, though... I prefer to keep my assertions in prod too.

ChrisA

From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Mar  2 19:01:35 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 11:01:35 +1100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <CACwCsY659-P9GCR3uHkPpxJPVpctseFXONYUs2OWKMYXarV_kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwCsY659-P9GCR3uHkPpxJPVpctseFXONYUs2OWKMYXarV_kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YD7R3/bqjmb2RLtj@cskk.homeip.net>

On 02Mar2021 15:06, Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> wrote:
>I discovered something new (to me) yesterday. Was writing a unit test
>for generator function and I found that none of the function got
>executed at all until I iterated on the return value.

Aye. Generators are lazy - they don't run at all until you ask for a 
value.

By contrast, this is unlike Go's goroutines, which are busy - they 
commence operation as soon as invoked and run until the first yield 
(channel put, I forget how it is spelled now). This can cause excessive 
CPU utilisation, but it handle for _fast_ production of results. Which 
is a primary goal in Go's design.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From research at johnohagan.com  Tue Mar  2 19:11:29 2021
From: research at johnohagan.com (John O'Hagan)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 11:11:29 +1100
Subject: Tkinter long-running window freezes
In-Reply-To: <20210224220031.5ce59f6b@e7240.home>
References: <20210224220031.5ce59f6b@e7240.home>
Message-ID: <20210303111129.01d6d381@e7240.home>

On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 22:35:32 +1100
John O'Hagan <research at johnohagan.com> wrote:

> Hi list
> 
> I have a 3.9 tkinter interface that displays data from an arbitrary
> number of threads, each of which runs for an arbitrary period of time.
> A frame opens in the root window when each thread starts and closes
> when it stops. Widgets in the frame and the root window control the
> thread and how the data is displayed.
> 
> This works well for several hours, but over time the root window
> becomes unresponsive and eventually freezes and goes grey. No error
> messages are produced in the terminal.
> 
> Here is some minimal, non-threaded code that reproduces the problem on
> my system (Xfce4 on Debian testing):
> 
> from tkinter import *
> from random import randint
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> def display(label):
>     label.destroy()
>     label = Label(text=randint(0, 9))
>     label.pack()
>     root.after(100, display, label)
> 
> display(Label())
> mainloop()
>  
> This opens a tiny window that displays a random digit on a new label
> every .1 second. (Obviously I could do this by updating the text
> rather than recreating the label, but my real application has to
> destroy widgets and create new ones).
> 
> This works for 3-4 hours, but eventually the window freezes.


Thanks to those that replied to this.

To summarise my tentative and incomplete conclusions, it seems that
tkinter doesn't like a lot of widgets being created and destroyed in a
long running process and will/may eventually freeze if this is done,
for a reason I haven't been able to fathom. Tk internally keeps names
of all widgets created, and this will cause a slow memory-use increase
if not prevented by manually re-using widget names, but this is not the
cause of the freezing. 

Here is a simplified version of how I worked around the issue by
recycling widgets:

from tkinter import *

class WidgetHandler:
    "Reuse tkinter widgets"

    widget_cache = []

    def __init__(self, main_window, *args):

        self.datastream = MyDataStream(*args)

        self.main_window = main_window
        if self.widget_cache:
            self.widget = self.widget_cache.pop()
            self.clean(self.widget)
        else:
            self.widget = self.new_widget()
        #add functionality to widgets, e.g:
        self.widget.var.traceid = self.widget.var.trace('w', self.meth1)
        self.widget.button.configure(command=self.meth2)
        self.widget.button.pack()
        #etc
        self.widget.pack()

    def clean(self, widget):
        "Remove traces, clear text boxes, reset button states etc"
        #e.g:
        self.widget.var.trace_remove('write', var.traceid)
        self.widget.button['state'] = 'normal'
        #etc

    def new_widget(self):
        "Create widget and children without adding any commands, traces etc"
        widget = Frame(self.main_window)
        #e.g:
        widget.var = StringVar()
        widget.button = Checkbutton(widget, variable=widget.var)
        #etc
        return widget

    def meth1(self, *e):
        pass
        #do something with self.datastream

    def meth2(self):
        pass
        #do something else with self.datastream

    #etc

    def quit(self):
        self.datastream.quit()
        self.widget.pack_forget()
        self.widget_cache.append(self.widget)

	


From greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz  Tue Mar  2 22:02:10 2021
From: greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:02:10 +1300
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.21.1614727487.3067.python-list@python.org>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.21.1614727487.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ia8chiFtmrcU1@mid.individual.net>

On 3/03/21 12:24 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> if PRODUCTION:
>      def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> 
> would work if it were a function :)

But would cost you a useless function call for every assert
in production mode.

-- 
Greg


From rsstinnett at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 22:56:11 2021
From: rsstinnett at gmail.com (Russell)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 03:56:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: editor recommendations?
References: <41697044-4479-97c6-4913-11de27f79565@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.207.1614351068.14271.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s1n1cr$1ee5$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> I'm currently using vim, and the primary reason I've stuck with it for so long is because I can get truly black screens with it.  By which I mean that I have a colorful window title bar, a light-grey menu bar, and then a light-grey frame around the text-editing window (aka the only window), and a nice, black-background editing area.

I use vim. It's actually extremely powerful, especially for text/code
editing. I'd recommend reading one of the many books on using vim
effectively. Also, plugins can really add a lot...

-- 
rust
0x68caecc97f6a90122e51c0692c88d9cb6b58a3dc

From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 23:11:47 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 20:11:47 -0800
Subject: editor recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <s1n1cr$1ee5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <41697044-4479-97c6-4913-11de27f79565@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.207.1614351068.14271.python-list@python.org>
 <s1n1cr$1ee5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qsauf-YGkMsgNc1Fn+fDF7Rsg5MzhvcwzUNLzmVnxbog@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:00 PM Russell <rsstinnett at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> > I'm currently using vim, and the primary reason I've stuck with it for
> so long is because I can get truly black screens with it.  By which I mean
> that I have a colorful window title bar, a light-grey menu bar, and then a
> light-grey frame around the text-editing window (aka the only window), and
> a nice, black-background editing area.
>
> I use vim. It's actually extremely powerful, especially for text/code
> editing. I'd recommend reading one of the many books on using vim
> effectively. Also, plugins can really add a lot...
>

On the subject of learning vim: There's an excellent vi cheat sheet
available on the internet.  I've put a copy of it at
https://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/vi.ref.6

vi is of course the predecessor of vim. But that cheat sheet is still great
for learning much of vim.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 23:28:34 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 15:28:34 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <ia8chiFtmrcU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.21.1614727487.3067.python-list@python.org>
 <ia8chiFtmrcU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoZqHrMmEJr+H+uz_q16A+OZJMCuNKJrwaji9zkTv6Tzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 2:06 PM Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> On 3/03/21 12:24 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > if PRODUCTION:
> >      def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> >
> > would work if it were a function :)
>
> But would cost you a useless function call for every assert
> in production mode.
>

A micro-optimization that would almost never actually impact your
code. But considering that I'm willing to keep *the entire check*
active, it's possible I'm slightly biased in favour of debuggability
at the cost of CPU...

ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 23:54:04 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 20:54:04 -0800
Subject: editor recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_qsauf-YGkMsgNc1Fn+fDF7Rsg5MzhvcwzUNLzmVnxbog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <41697044-4479-97c6-4913-11de27f79565@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.207.1614351068.14271.python-list@python.org>
 <s1n1cr$1ee5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <CAGGBd_qsauf-YGkMsgNc1Fn+fDF7Rsg5MzhvcwzUNLzmVnxbog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_r7sD6QMf1gazJJN4vQ8uo0z5iXYNypgRe5-0Kt7VE8kA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:11 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:00 PM Russell <rsstinnett at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>> > I'm currently using vim, and the primary reason I've stuck with it for
>> so long is because I can get truly black screens with it.  By which I mean
>> that I have a colorful window title bar, a light-grey menu bar, and then a
>> light-grey frame around the text-editing window (aka the only window), and
>> a nice, black-background editing area.
>>
>> I use vim. It's actually extremely powerful, especially for text/code
>> editing. I'd recommend reading one of the many books on using vim
>> effectively. Also, plugins can really add a lot...
>>
>
> On the subject of learning vim: There's an excellent vi cheat sheet
> available on the internet.  I've put a copy of it at
> https://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/vi.ref.6
>
> vi is of course the predecessor of vim. But that cheat sheet is still
> great for learning much of vim.
>

I just ran across:  http://lib.ru/MAN/viref.txt
...which is pretty much the same thing, but converted to nice HTML.

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 21:05:02 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 02:05:02 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s1mqse$11fq$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-02, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list><python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
>> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of
>> it in production code.
>
> Really?
>
> if PRODUCTION:
>     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
>
> would work if it were a function :)

Wouldn't that still evaluate all of the arguments? You get rid of the
value of the assert, but retain almost all of the cost.

I thought the entire point of asser being a keyword was so that if you
disable asserts then they go away completely: the arguments aren't
even evaluated.

--
Grant




From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Mar  2 21:33:53 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2021 21:33:53 -0500
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s1msii$iqv$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/1/2021 5:51 PM, Marco Sulla wrote:
> I have a curiosity. Python, as many languages, has assert as a
> keyword. Can't it be implemented as a function? Is there an advantage
> to have it as a keyword?

One does not need to turn the test expression into a function.  One does 
not need to wrap the message expression to delay evaluation.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From lele at metapensiero.it  Wed Mar  3 04:00:36 2021
From: lele at metapensiero.it (Lele Gaifax)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2021 10:00:36 +0100
Subject: editor recommendations?
References: <41697044-4479-97c6-4913-11de27f79565@stoneleaf.us>
 <YDllbaqQoJ/ZCsSa@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <874khs8vd7.fsf@metapensiero.it>

Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> writes:

> My fingers know vim. Some others' fingers know emacs.

Emacs has also an Evil[1] mode, that mimics some vi/vim features.

I suggest taking a look at Doom Emacs[2], a popular so-called "Emacs
distribution", that provides an out-of-the-box great experience with a modular
configuration.

ciao, lele.
[1] https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Evil
[2] https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs
-- 
Emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same
way that the noonday sun does the stars. It is not just bigger and
brighter; it simply makes everything else vanish.  ? Neal Stephenson


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 09:54:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 01:54:18 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <s1mqse$11fq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s1mqse$11fq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqiBHjj4d9Yw27kJfsOxKE5GT6DbbtY1jG5j5+oO531Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 1:40 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-02, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list><python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> >> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
> >> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of
> >> it in production code.
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > if PRODUCTION:
> >     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> >
> > would work if it were a function :)
>
> Wouldn't that still evaluate all of the arguments? You get rid of the
> value of the assert, but retain almost all of the cost.
>
> I thought the entire point of asser being a keyword was so that if you
> disable asserts then they go away completely: the arguments aren't
> even evaluated.
>

It depends on what the point of "removing the assertions" is, but yes,
that will indeed still evaluate the arguments. IMO the cost of running
assertions isn't that high compared to the value of keeping them
(which is why I never run -O), and the performance argument is a weak
one compared to the much stronger value of having the actual failing
expression available in the exception report.

ChrisA

From david at lowryduda.com  Wed Mar  3 12:35:24 2021
From: david at lowryduda.com (David Lowry-Duda)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 12:35:24 -0500
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <YD/I3A2qzd9+P11p@icerm-dld>

> assert condition, expression
> 
> Only is condition is false with expression be evaluated.
> So you can safely do expensive things I the expression with incuring 
> and cost if the condition is True.

I think I've only every used a string as the expression. Have you found 
it useful to use complicated, expensive expressions? Could you give an 
example?

- DLD

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Wed Mar  3 13:24:21 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 18:24:21 +0000
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <YD/I3A2qzd9+P11p@icerm-dld>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>
 <YD/I3A2qzd9+P11p@icerm-dld>
Message-ID: <FF009C06-1E60-4141-96A2-CA88E2461635@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 3 Mar 2021, at 17:35, David Lowry-Duda <david at lowryduda.com> wrote:
> 
>> assert condition, expression
>> 
>> Only is condition is false with expression be evaluated.
>> So you can safely do expensive things I the expression with incuring 
>> and cost if the condition is True.
> 
> I think I've only every used a string as the expression. Have you found 
> it useful to use complicated, expensive expressions? Could you give an 
> example?

In the test suite of the product I work on its common to put a lot of information into the expression.
For example if a HTTP request returns unexpected content we will include all the headers and
body of the that the request returners.

	assert http_status == '200', 'Request failed status %r Body:\n%s' % (http_status, http_header_and_body)

Barry


> 
> - DLD
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 13:41:02 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 05:41:02 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <FF009C06-1E60-4141-96A2-CA88E2461635@barrys-emacs.org>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>
 <YD/I3A2qzd9+P11p@icerm-dld>
 <FF009C06-1E60-4141-96A2-CA88E2461635@barrys-emacs.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoy3nEo=BA0DezD8hgTYY0uWVss5qMvXkQA-KsHOB25BA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 5:25 AM Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 3 Mar 2021, at 17:35, David Lowry-Duda <david at lowryduda.com> wrote:
> >
> >> assert condition, expression
> >>
> >> Only is condition is false with expression be evaluated.
> >> So you can safely do expensive things I the expression with incuring
> >> and cost if the condition is True.
> >
> > I think I've only every used a string as the expression. Have you found
> > it useful to use complicated, expensive expressions? Could you give an
> > example?
>
> In the test suite of the product I work on its common to put a lot of information into the expression.
> For example if a HTTP request returns unexpected content we will include all the headers and
> body of the that the request returners.
>
>         assert http_status == '200', 'Request failed status %r Body:\n%s' % (http_status, http_header_and_body)
>

That doesn't look like the sort of thing that should be an assertion.
Assertions should be for things that, if your code were bug-free,
could never happen.

ChrisA

From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Wed Mar  3 14:33:27 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry Scott)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 19:33:27 +0000
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoy3nEo=BA0DezD8hgTYY0uWVss5qMvXkQA-KsHOB25BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <95F199C3-F178-405A-BB13-CDCDD1560D12@barrys-emacs.org>
 <YD/I3A2qzd9+P11p@icerm-dld>
 <FF009C06-1E60-4141-96A2-CA88E2461635@barrys-emacs.org>
 <CAPTjJmoy3nEo=BA0DezD8hgTYY0uWVss5qMvXkQA-KsHOB25BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DD1201E-9A7B-4A61-BFD0-6DB2D758C05F@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 3 Mar 2021, at 18:41, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 5:25 AM Barry Scott <barry at barrys-emacs.org <mailto:barry at barrys-emacs.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 3 Mar 2021, at 17:35, David Lowry-Duda <david at lowryduda.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> assert condition, expression
>>>> 
>>>> Only is condition is false with expression be evaluated.
>>>> So you can safely do expensive things I the expression with incuring
>>>> and cost if the condition is True.
>>> 
>>> I think I've only every used a string as the expression. Have you found
>>> it useful to use complicated, expensive expressions? Could you give an
>>> example?
>> 
>> In the test suite of the product I work on its common to put a lot of information into the expression.
>> For example if a HTTP request returns unexpected content we will include all the headers and
>> body of the that the request returners.
>> 
>>        assert http_status == '200', 'Request failed status %r Body:\n%s' % (http_status, http_header_and_body)
>> 
> 
> That doesn't look like the sort of thing that should be an assertion.
> Assertions should be for things that, if your code were bug-free,
> could never happen.

If the code works the status will be 200 and the test will pass.

Now you can argue that the test suite should use something better then assert,
but assert is what the code that I inherited uses. Its origins go back many many
years. Its would be a lot of work to modernise as there are 1,000s of test suites
affect.

Barry


> 
> ChrisA
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>

From rob.cliffe at btinternet.com  Wed Mar  3 22:18:31 2021
From: rob.cliffe at btinternet.com (Rob Cliffe)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 03:18:31 +0000
Subject: a + not b
Message-ID: <0a183460-095d-fad1-4b87-f56e315f2bb0@btinternet.com>

I can't work out why
 ??? 1 + - 1
 ??? 1 + (not 1)
are legal syntax, but
 ??? 1 + not 1
isn't.
Is there a good reason for this?
Thanks
Rob Cliffe


From avigross at verizon.net  Wed Mar  3 22:39:49 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 22:39:49 -0500
Subject: a + not b
In-Reply-To: <0a183460-095d-fad1-4b87-f56e315f2bb0@btinternet.com>
References: <0a183460-095d-fad1-4b87-f56e315f2bb0@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <0fdd01d710a8$078cd820$16a68860$@verizon.net>

As a guess, Rob, precedence rules for not may not bind as strongly as you think.

1 + (not 1)

With parentheses, "not 1" is a subexpression that should be performed first and might return the value "False"

1 + False

treats False in a numeric context as a zero so evaluates to 1.

But

1 + not 1 

Looks a bit ambiguous as "+ " expects something it considers a number or that can be converted to a number. Without parentheses, it may try to do 

1 + not

Which gets the same Syntax error.

I looked and operator "not" is evaluated much later than "+" and just before "and" and "or" so you need parentheses to force the interpretation you may intend. Similarly, some used of "and" require parentheses as do other operators.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On Behalf Of Rob Cliffe via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 10:19 PM
To: Python <python-list at python.org>
Subject: a + not b

I can't work out why
     1 + - 1
     1 + (not 1)
are legal syntax, but
     1 + not 1
isn't.
Is there a good reason for this?
Thanks
Rob Cliffe

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Wed Mar  3 23:08:40 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 04:08:40 +0000
Subject: a + not b
In-Reply-To: <0fdd01d710a8$078cd820$16a68860$@verizon.net>
References: <0a183460-095d-fad1-4b87-f56e315f2bb0@btinternet.com>
 <0fdd01d710a8$078cd820$16a68860$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4734cb71-0c43-8918-e6bc-a1a68d682876@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-04 03:39, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
> As a guess, Rob, precedence rules for not may not bind as strongly as you think.
> 
> 1 + (not 1)
> 
> With parentheses, "not 1" is a subexpression that should be performed first and might return the value "False"
> 
> 1 + False
> 
> treats False in a numeric context as a zero so evaluates to 1.
> 
> But
> 
> 1 + not 1
> 
> Looks a bit ambiguous as "+ " expects something it considers a number or that can be converted to a number. Without parentheses, it may try to do
> 
> 1 + not
> 
> Which gets the same Syntax error.
> 
> I looked and operator "not" is evaluated much later than "+" and just before "and" and "or" so you need parentheses to force the interpretation you may intend. Similarly, some used of "and" require parentheses as do other operators.
> If you look through the grammar, the relevant bits are:

     sum: sum '+' term
     term: factor
     factor: power
     power: await_primary
     await_primary: primary
     primary: atom

and an 'atom' can be a number, etc, but can never start with "not".

A 'primary' can be an 'atom' and can have a subscript.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On Behalf Of Rob Cliffe via Python-list
> Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 10:19 PM
> To: Python <python-list at python.org>
> Subject: a + not b
> 
> I can't work out why
>       1 + - 1
>       1 + (not 1)
> are legal syntax, but
>       1 + not 1
> isn't.
> Is there a good reason for this?
> Thanks
> Rob Cliffe
> 

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 11:50:31 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 16:50:31 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s1mqse$11fq$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmqiBHjj4d9Yw27kJfsOxKE5GT6DbbtY1jG5j5+oO531Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s1oeom$qu3$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-03, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 1:40 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I thought the entire point of asser being a keyword was so that if you
>> disable asserts then they go away completely: the arguments aren't
>> even evaluated.
>
> It depends on what the point of "removing the assertions" is, but
> yes, that will indeed still evaluate the arguments. IMO the cost of
> running assertions isn't that high compared to the value of keeping
> them (which is why I never run -O), and the performance argument is
> a weak one compared to the much stronger value of having the actual
> failing expression available in the exception report.

Good point. I had forgotten about having the expression available in
the exception output. That's definitly valuable.



From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 12:10:34 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 12:10:34 -0500
Subject: Problem with printing statement when condition is false
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=joAYWyKr9SbMoyyAcr8mCANGd2KPo4JneJAegYLbdx5A@mail.gmail.com>

Okay so, this is my biggest project, I'm not advanced in Python in any
way so don't expect it to be perfect. I made a trivia game and for the most
part, it works but I can't get it to print "Incorrect" and then what the
answer was for all but one of my questions and I don't know why. I use
PyCharm as my IDE for his just as a heads up. I won't paste the code into
this because it's 164 lines so I will attach a file copy, please don't send
back the edited file only write them out and where I need to fix them,
thank you!
Stay Safe Everyone! :)

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Mar  4 15:15:33 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 15:15:33 -0500
Subject: Problem with printing statement when condition is false
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=joAYWyKr9SbMoyyAcr8mCANGd2KPo4JneJAegYLbdx5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=joAYWyKr9SbMoyyAcr8mCANGd2KPo4JneJAegYLbdx5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s1rf57$mne$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/4/2021 12:10 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:

> I won't paste the code into
> this because it's 164 lines so I will attach a file copy,

The alternative to posting too much is to reduce your code to the 
minimum needed to exhibit the behavior you want to change.  Doing so may 
reveal to you the solution.  It will certainly make it easier for anyone 
else to help you and will make any answer more useful to other readers.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From voodoo.bender at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 15:36:00 2021
From: voodoo.bender at gmail.com (alberto)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 12:36:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: program python
Message-ID: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>

Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv data
In particular I would extract this information 

View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time.

* Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the 10 most populous neighborhoods show:
* the proportion of births out of the total
* the proportion of 80+ to the total
* The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens

this is the file
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing

How could fix it?

regards 

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 15:49:05 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 14:49:05 -0600
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTx-miWXoD2UrhoYZHfXO0amLyFmjyVfSgdPDNBv6ct6xg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 2:42 PM alberto <voodoo.bender at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv data
> In particular I would extract this information
>
> View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time.
>
> * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the 10 most populous neighborhoods show:
> * the proportion of births out of the total
> * the proportion of 80+ to the total
> * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens
>
> this is the file
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing
>
> How could fix it?

What seems to be the problem?

Thank you.

>
> regards
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Mar  4 15:53:07 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 09:53:07 +1300
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <2e557b65-8011-5d69-adf7-9c0c4923b44d@DancesWithMice.info>

Hi, and welcome to the list.

On 05/03/2021 09.36, alberto wrote:
> Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv data
> In particular I would extract this information 
> 
> View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time.
> 
> * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the 10 most populous neighborhoods show:
> * the proportion of births out of the total
> * the proportion of 80+ to the total
> * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens
> 
> this is the file
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing
> 
> How could fix it?


NB For security reasons, many will not follow this link/see the data-file!

There are several libraries which can be import-ed into Python, which
enable access to .csv-formatted files. The PSL (Python Standard Library)
offers "csv ? CSV File Reading and Writing"
(https://docs.python.org/3/library/csv.html).

Start by writing the Python code to open the .csv file, and close it
again (as you would at the end of the program). Leave plenty of
blank/empty lines between the two, and use that space to continue with
the next steps...

There are three objectives.

To start, assume that the file is open in front of you. How will you
solve the first problem? Can you describe this in English (and/or your
preferred language)?

Write this as a Python comment. Next, can you translate the
spoken-language into Python?

Thereafter tackle problems two and three.


We don't know your level of Python skill. So, let us know how you
get-on, and come back with sample code, if you strike a problem at any step.
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From pbryan at anode.ca  Thu Mar  4 16:04:41 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 21:04:41 +0000
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
References: <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <010d0177ff0e92d1-d27d0b37-c08b-42ba-b52c-0d70dff4ece7-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

I don't see a Python program in that link.

Are you asking how to extract data from a CSV?
A good start will be to look into the csv.reader function and
csv.DictReader class.

Paul

On Thu, 2021-03-04 at 12:36 -0800, alberto wrote:
> Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv
> data
> In particular I would extract this information 
> 
> View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time.
> 
> * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the
> 10 most populous neighborhoods show:
> * the proportion of births out of the total
> * the proportion of 80+ to the total
> * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens
> 
> this is the file
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing
> 
> How could fix it?
> 
> regards 


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Mar  4 16:28:22 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 16:28:22 -0500
Subject: Problem with printing statement when condition is false
In-Reply-To: <s1rf57$mne$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAO9VG=joAYWyKr9SbMoyyAcr8mCANGd2KPo4JneJAegYLbdx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <s1rf57$mne$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s1rjdo$4ka$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/4/2021 3:15 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 3/4/2021 12:10 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:
> 
>> I won't paste the code into
>> this because it's 164 lines so I will attach a file copy,
> 
> The alternative to posting too much is to reduce your code to the 
> minimum needed to exhibit the behavior you want to change.? Doing so may 
> reveal to you the solution.? It will certainly make it easier for anyone 
> else to help you and will make any answer more useful to other readers.

Quentin privately sent me 12 lines (which should have been posted here 
instead), which can be reduced to the following 4 that exhibit his bug.

if a == b:
     print('correct')
     if a != b:
         print('incorrect')

The bug is a != b will never be true when a == b and will not be tested 
when a != b.  The fix is to use else.

if a == b:
     print('correct')
else:
     print('incorrect')

This should not be reduced to a conditional expression since different 
code follows the print statements in the actual example.

--
Terry Jan Reedy



From voodoo.bender at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 17:35:57 2021
From: voodoo.bender at gmail.com (alberto)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 14:35:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.45.1614891884.3067.python-list@python.org>
References: <010d0177ff0e92d1-d27d0b37-c08b-42ba-b52c-0d70dff4ece7-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.45.1614891884.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <49446476-b80c-4daf-8f26-75f5ad1f03fan@googlegroups.com>

Il giorno gioved? 4 marzo 2021 alle 22:04:57 UTC+1 Paul Bryan ha scritto:
> I don't see a Python program in that link. 
> 
> Are you asking how to extract data from a CSV? 
> A good start will be to look into the csv.reader function and 
> csv.DictReader class. 
> 
> Paul
> On Thu, 2021-03-04 at 12:36 -0800, alberto wrote: 
> > Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv 
> > data 
> > In particular I would extract this information 
> > 
> > View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time. 
> > 
> > * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the 
> > 10 most populous neighborhoods show: 
> > * the proportion of births out of the total 
> > * the proportion of 80+ to the total 
> > * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens 
> > 
> > this is the file 
> > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing 
> > 
> > How could fix it? 
> > 
> > regards

Hi, 
with this code
import pandas as pd
df = pd.read_csv('data.csv',usecols=['Uomini','Donne'])

print(df)
I extract two columns, but I would see 'Affori over time'

regards

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 17:51:11 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 16:51:11 -0600
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <49446476-b80c-4daf-8f26-75f5ad1f03fan@googlegroups.com>
References: <010d0177ff0e92d1-d27d0b37-c08b-42ba-b52c-0d70dff4ece7-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.45.1614891884.3067.python-list@python.org>
 <49446476-b80c-4daf-8f26-75f5ad1f03fan@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTznTKwf77-sicnzOvqKTEypW2nryhqDTz2kNF8hdw1Pow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 4:42 PM alberto <voodoo.bender at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Il giorno gioved? 4 marzo 2021 alle 22:04:57 UTC+1 Paul Bryan ha scritto:
> > I don't see a Python program in that link.
> >
> > Are you asking how to extract data from a CSV?
> > A good start will be to look into the csv.reader function and
> > csv.DictReader class.
> >
> > Paul
> > On Thu, 2021-03-04 at 12:36 -0800, alberto wrote:
> > > Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv
> > > data
> > > In particular I would extract this information
> > >
> > > View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time.
> > >
> > > * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the
> > > 10 most populous neighborhoods show:
> > > * the proportion of births out of the total
> > > * the proportion of 80+ to the total
> > > * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens
> > >
> > > this is the file
> > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing
> > >
> > > How could fix it?
> > >
> > > regards
>
> Hi,
> with this code
> import pandas as pd
> df = pd.read_csv('data.csv',usecols=['Uomini','Donne'])
>
> print(df)
> I extract two columns, but I would see 'Affori over time'

And if you add this column to the list - what happens?

Thank you.

>
> regards
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From voodoo.bender at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 05:41:30 2021
From: voodoo.bender at gmail.com (alberto)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 02:41:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: program python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.48.1614898285.3067.python-list@python.org>
References: <010d0177ff0e92d1-d27d0b37-c08b-42ba-b52c-0d70dff4ece7-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <6c1d7a64-2894-4ec1-8407-b9266e611c78n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.45.1614891884.3067.python-list@python.org>
 <CA+FnnTznTKwf77-sicnzOvqKTEypW2nryhqDTz2kNF8hdw1Pow@mail.gmail.com>
 <49446476-b80c-4daf-8f26-75f5ad1f03fan@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.48.1614898285.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <22880229-e111-4628-82cf-4cc813ffca42n@googlegroups.com>

Il giorno gioved? 4 marzo 2021 alle 23:51:39 UTC+1 Igor Korot ha scritto:
> Hi,
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 4:42 PM alberto <voodoo... at gmail.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > Il giorno gioved? 4 marzo 2021 alle 22:04:57 UTC+1 Paul Bryan ha scritto: 
> > > I don't see a Python program in that link. 
> > > 
> > > Are you asking how to extract data from a CSV? 
> > > A good start will be to look into the csv.reader function and 
> > > csv.DictReader class. 
> > > 
> > > Paul 
> > > On Thu, 2021-03-04 at 12:36 -0800, alberto wrote: 
> > > > Hi I'm tring to write a program with python to evaluate data of csv 
> > > > data 
> > > > In particular I would extract this information 
> > > > 
> > > > View data on the presence of men and women in Affori over time. 
> > > > 
> > > > * Carry out an analysis relating to the last available year. Of the 
> > > > 10 most populous neighborhoods show: 
> > > > * the proportion of births out of the total 
> > > > * the proportion of 80+ to the total 
> > > > * The ratio of minors / number of kindergartens 
> > > > 
> > > > this is the file 
> > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zKflvSpB-oDAqYscLsEgUhSnqL1XPdql/view?usp=sharing 
> > > > 
> > > > How could fix it? 
> > > > 
> > > > regards 
> > 
> > Hi, 
> > with this code 
> > import pandas as pd 
> > df = pd.read_csv('data.csv',usecols=['Uomini','Donne']) 
> > 
> > print(df) 
> > I extract two columns, but I would see 'Affori over time'
> And if you add this column to the list - what happens?
> Thank you. 
> 
> > 
> > regards 
> > -- 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Hi, 
with pandas I obtain results!
Now I would calculate ratio beetween columns of my csv

import pandas as pd
pd.set_option('display.max_rows', 500)
df = pd.read_csv ('data_quartiere_2018.csv', usecols= ['Anno','Totale','Quartiere','Nati','80 e pi? soli','80 e pi?','Minori','Scuola_infanzia (numero)'])
test = df.loc[df['Totale'] >= 31990, 
print (test)

in particular I would calculate ratio beetween ('Nati'*100)/'Totale' when ['Totale'] >= 31990

How could fix it

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Mar  4 22:13:24 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:13:24 -0500
Subject: Problem with printing statement when condition is false
In-Reply-To: <s1rjdo$4ka$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CAO9VG=joAYWyKr9SbMoyyAcr8mCANGd2KPo4JneJAegYLbdx5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <s1rf57$mne$1@ciao.gmane.io> <s1rjdo$4ka$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s1s7kk$met$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/4/2021 4:28 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:

> Quentin privately sent me 12 lines (which should have been posted here 
> instead), which can be reduced to the following 4 that exhibit his bug.
> 
> if a == b:
>  ??? print('correct')
>  ??? if a != b:
>  ??????? print('incorrect')
> 
> The bug is a != b will never be true when a == b and will not be tested 
> when a != b.? The fix is to use else.
> 
> if a == b:
>  ??? print('correct')
> else:
>  ??? print('incorrect')
> 
> This should not be reduced to a conditional expression since different 
> code follows the print statements in the actual example.

Quentin wrote me privately that this, applied to his code, solved his 
problem.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From cs at cskk.id.au  Fri Mar  5 20:02:51 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:02:51 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <s1oeom$qu3$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1oeom$qu3$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <YELUu9aFN93zyJOx@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Mar2021 16:50, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2021-03-03, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 1:40 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I thought the entire point of asser being a keyword was so that if you
>>> disable asserts then they go away completely: the arguments aren't
>>> even evaluated.
>>
>> It depends on what the point of "removing the assertions" is, but
>> yes, that will indeed still evaluate the arguments. IMO the cost of
>> running assertions isn't that high compared to the value of keeping
>> them (which is why I never run -O), and the performance argument is
>> a weak one compared to the much stronger value of having the actual
>> failing expression available in the exception report.
>
>Good point. I had forgotten about having the expression available in
>the exception output. That's definitly valuable.

Did we all see the recently announced ycecream PyPI module? Very cool!

See: https://github.com/salabim/ycecream

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 21:54:05 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2021 21:54:05 -0500
Subject: trouble using pygame
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=hsq_ExDTPpUq1oSuhP8wba=EF=R7Y1FARFNcEZ4VRX3g@mail.gmail.com>

So, I recently downloaded the pygame module, this code is from a youtube
tutorial by the way, I am following along the tutorial, the error involves
the pygame.init() and also says this:

import pygame

# Initialize Pygame
pygame.init()

#create the screen
screen = pygame.display.set_mode((800, 600))

# Game Loop
running = True
while running:
    for event in pygame.event.get():
        if event.type == pygame.quit():
            running = False

The error says "partially initialized module 'pygame' has no attribute
'init' (most likely due to a circular import)

If someone could also explain what a circular import is and how to
avoid them within the future that would be great

Thanks :)

Here is a link to the tutorial  as well just in case someone wants to see it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Mar  5 23:28:35 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 04:28:35 +0000
Subject: trouble using pygame
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=hsq_ExDTPpUq1oSuhP8wba=EF=R7Y1FARFNcEZ4VRX3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hsq_ExDTPpUq1oSuhP8wba=EF=R7Y1FARFNcEZ4VRX3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8009f770-6c9f-8841-cde8-fd66fc4a5b00@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-06 02:54, Quentin Bock wrote:
> So, I recently downloaded the pygame module, this code is from a youtube
> tutorial by the way, I am following along the tutorial, the error involves
> the pygame.init() and also says this:
> 
> import pygame
> 
> # Initialize Pygame
> pygame.init()
> 
> #create the screen
> screen = pygame.display.set_mode((800, 600))
> 
> # Game Loop
> running = True
> while running:
>      for event in pygame.event.get():
>          if event.type == pygame.quit():
>              running = False
> 
> The error says "partially initialized module 'pygame' has no attribute
> 'init' (most likely due to a circular import)
> 
> If someone could also explain what a circular import is and how to
> avoid them within the future that would be great
> 
> Thanks :)
> 
> Here is a link to the tutorial  as well just in case someone wants to see it:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w
> 
A circular import is when a module tries to import itself directly or 
indirectly. (A imports A; A imports B, which imports A; A imports B, 
which imports C, which imports A; you get the idea!)

What did you call your script? Did you perhaps call it "pygame"?

From frank at chagford.com  Sat Mar  6 01:21:47 2021
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 08:21:47 +0200
Subject: Question about generators
Message-ID: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>

Hi all

This is purely academic, but I would like to understand the following -

 >>>
 >>> a = [('x', 'y')]
 >>>
 >>> s = []
 >>> for b, c in a:
...   s.append((b, c))
...
 >>> s
[('x', 'y')]


This is what I expected.

 >>>
 >>> s = []
 >>> s.append(((b, c) for b, c in a))
 >>> s
[<generator object <genexpr> at 0x0000019FC3F863C0>]
 >>>

I expected the same as the first one.

I understand the concept that a generator does not return a value until 
you call next() on it, but I have not grasped the essential difference 
between the above two constructions.

TIA for any insights.

Frank Millman


From alan at csail.mit.edu  Sat Mar  6 01:36:44 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 01:36:44 -0500
Subject: Question about generators
References: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.61.1615011721.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <86pn0ciy9v.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

   >>>
   >>> s = []
   >>> s.append(((b, c) for b, c in a))
   >>> s
   [<generator object <genexpr> at 0x0000019FC3F863C0>]
   >>>

   TIA for any insights.

Replace "append" above with "extend" and observe the results.  Then
ponder the difference between append and extend.  I suspect that the
heart of your confusion actually has nothing to do with generators.

-- 
Alan Bawden

From ming at pgp.cool  Sat Mar  6 02:26:06 2021
From: ming at pgp.cool (Ming)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:26:06 +0800
Subject: Question about generators
In-Reply-To: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <20210306072605.GA15@pgp.cool>

On Sat, Mar 06, 2021 at 08:21:47AM +0200, Frank Millman wrote:
> [...]
> I understand the concept that a generator does not return a value until you
> call next() on it, but I have not grasped the essential difference between
> the above two constructions.
> 
> TIA for any insights.
> 
> Frank Millman

In your first example, a certain element is appended to s each time in
the loop. But in your second example, the generator first traverses all
the elements, and then generates an iterable object, you are trying to
append this object to s.

Let's look at a simpler but more certain example:

a = [1, 2, 3]
s = []
for n in a:
    s.append(n)
# Result: 
# len(s) == 3
# s == [1, 2, 3]

a = [1, 2, 3]
s = []
g = (n for n in a)
s.append(g)
# Result:
# len(s) == 1
# list(s[0]) == [1, 2, 3]

If you want to get the same result in the above two cases, just replace
append with extend.
list.extend() can accept an iterable object as input, and then append all
the elements to the original list.

-- 
OpenPGP fingerprint: 3C47 5977 4819 267E DD64  C7E4 6332 5675 A739 C74E
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From frank at chagford.com  Sat Mar  6 02:54:10 2021
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 09:54:10 +0200
Subject: Question about generators
In-Reply-To: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <2c7ce16a-66e1-0abb-5f87-71d3aa9939db@chagford.com>

On 2021-03-06 8:21 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> This is purely academic, but I would like to understand the following -
> 
>  >>>
>  >>> a = [('x', 'y')]
>  >>>
>  >>> s = []
>  >>> for b, c in a:
> ...?? s.append((b, c))
> ...
>  >>> s
> [('x', 'y')]
> 
> 
> This is what I expected.
> 
>  >>>
>  >>> s = []
>  >>> s.append(((b, c) for b, c in a))
>  >>> s
> [<generator object <genexpr> at 0x0000019FC3F863C0>]
>  >>>
> 
> I expected the same as the first one.
> 
> I understand the concept that a generator does not return a value until 
> you call next() on it, but I have not grasped the essential difference 
> between the above two constructions.
> 
> 

Thanks, Alan and Ming.

I think I have got it now.

In my first example, a 'for' loop both creates an iterable object *and* 
iterates over it.

In my second example, a generator expression creates an iterable object, 
but does nothing with it until asked.

Changing 'append' to 'extend' has the effect of iterating over the 
generator expression and appending the results.

Frank


From frank at chagford.com  Sat Mar  6 02:54:10 2021
From: frank at chagford.com (Frank Millman)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 09:54:10 +0200
Subject: Question about generators
In-Reply-To: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1v71r$13sk$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <2c7ce16a-66e1-0abb-5f87-71d3aa9939db@chagford.com>

On 2021-03-06 8:21 AM, Frank Millman wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> This is purely academic, but I would like to understand the following -
> 
>  >>>
>  >>> a = [('x', 'y')]
>  >>>
>  >>> s = []
>  >>> for b, c in a:
> ...?? s.append((b, c))
> ...
>  >>> s
> [('x', 'y')]
> 
> 
> This is what I expected.
> 
>  >>>
>  >>> s = []
>  >>> s.append(((b, c) for b, c in a))
>  >>> s
> [<generator object <genexpr> at 0x0000019FC3F863C0>]
>  >>>
> 
> I expected the same as the first one.
> 
> I understand the concept that a generator does not return a value until 
> you call next() on it, but I have not grasped the essential difference 
> between the above two constructions.
> 
> 

Thanks, Alan and Ming.

I think I have got it now.

In my first example, a 'for' loop both creates an iterable object *and* 
iterates over it.

In my second example, a generator expression creates an iterable object, 
but does nothing with it until asked.

Changing 'append' to 'extend' has the effect of iterating over the 
generator expression and appending the results.

Frank

From ml_news at posteo.de  Sat Mar  6 06:00:33 2021
From: ml_news at posteo.de (Manfred Lotz)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:00:33 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
Message-ID: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>

Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file. 

I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package. 

So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
only for rtoml, aso.

How could I achieve this?

-- 
Thanks,
Manfred


From ml_news at posteo.de  Sat Mar  6 06:43:32 2021
From: ml_news at posteo.de (Manfred Lotz)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:43:32 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:00:33 +0100
Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:

> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file. 
> 
> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package. 
> 
> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
> only for rtoml, aso.
> 
> How could I achieve this?
> 

I got the following minimal example working but presumably my solution
isn't the best way.

xtoml.py:

class Xtoml:
    def __init__(self, which='rtoml'):
        self.which = which

    def parse_toml(self, toml_string):
        if self.which == 'rtoml':
            import rtoml as toml
        elif self.which == 'tomlkit':
            import tomlkit as toml
        else:
            import toml

        return toml.loads(toml_string)


test_xtoml.py:

from xtoml import Xtoml

toml_string = """
[default]

basedir = "/myproject"

"""

def main():
    xtoml = Xtoml('toml')
    parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
    print(parsed_toml)

    xtoml = Xtoml()
    parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
    print(parsed_toml)

if __name__ == "__main__":
    main()



From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Mar  6 08:06:27 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 14:06:27 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
In-Reply-To: <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
 <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <437f7470-a8b8-7400-c437-a101406a14d9@web.de>

On 06/03/2021 12:43, Manfred Lotz wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:00:33 +0100
> Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
> 
>> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file.
>>
>> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
>> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.
>>
>> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
>> only for rtoml, aso.
>>
>> How could I achieve this?
>>
> 
> I got the following minimal example working but presumably my solution
> isn't the best way.
> 
> xtoml.py:
> 
> class Xtoml:
>      def __init__(self, which='rtoml'):
>          self.which = which
> 
>      def parse_toml(self, toml_string):
>          if self.which == 'rtoml':
>              import rtoml as toml
>          elif self.which == 'tomlkit':
>              import tomlkit as toml
>          else:
>              import toml
> 
>          return toml.loads(toml_string)
> 
> 
> test_xtoml.py:
> 
> from xtoml import Xtoml
> 
> toml_string = """
> [default]
> 
> basedir = "/myproject"
> 
> """
> 
> def main():
>      xtoml = Xtoml('toml')
>      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
>      print(parsed_toml)
> 
>      xtoml = Xtoml()
>      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
>      print(parsed_toml)
> 
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>      main()

As long as you use a common subset of the functions provided by the 
packages you can just do

def main():
     global toml  # if you want to use the toml package elsewhere
                  # in your module

     chosen_toml = ...  # get package name
     toml = importlib.import_module(chosen_toml)

     data = toml.loads(toml_string)

However, the user usually doesn't care, so I would recommend that you be 
bold and pick the package you prefer ;)



From __peter__ at web.de  Sat Mar  6 08:06:27 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 14:06:27 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
In-Reply-To: <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
 <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <437f7470-a8b8-7400-c437-a101406a14d9@web.de>

On 06/03/2021 12:43, Manfred Lotz wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:00:33 +0100
> Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
>
>> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file.
>>
>> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
>> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.
>>
>> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
>> only for rtoml, aso.
>>
>> How could I achieve this?
>>
>
> I got the following minimal example working but presumably my solution
> isn't the best way.
>
> xtoml.py:
>
> class Xtoml:
>      def __init__(self, which='rtoml'):
>          self.which = which
>
>      def parse_toml(self, toml_string):
>          if self.which == 'rtoml':
>              import rtoml as toml
>          elif self.which == 'tomlkit':
>              import tomlkit as toml
>          else:
>              import toml
>
>          return toml.loads(toml_string)
>
>
> test_xtoml.py:
>
> from xtoml import Xtoml
>
> toml_string = """
> [default]
>
> basedir = "/myproject"
>
> """
>
> def main():
>      xtoml = Xtoml('toml')
>      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
>      print(parsed_toml)
>
>      xtoml = Xtoml()
>      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
>      print(parsed_toml)
>
> if __name__ == "__main__":
>      main()

As long as you use a common subset of the functions provided by the
packages you can just do

def main():
     global toml  # if you want to use the toml package elsewhere
                  # in your module

     chosen_toml = ...  # get package name
     toml = importlib.import_module(chosen_toml)

     data = toml.loads(toml_string)

However, the user usually doesn't care, so I would recommend that you be
bold and pick the package you prefer ;)


From Bonita.Montero at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 09:52:57 2021
From: Bonita.Montero at gmail.com (Bonita Montero)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:52:57 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4>
Message-ID: <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>

> It hasn't been formally released yet as it still requires more extensive 
> testing. It will be used as part of my universal compiler, neos, that 
> can compile any programming language ...

You will get the same room in the same psychiatric ward like
Amine Moulay Ramdane.


From ml_news at posteo.de  Sat Mar  6 09:06:53 2021
From: ml_news at posteo.de (Manfred Lotz)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:06:53 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
 <20210306124332.12a4b675@arcor.com>
 <437f7470-a8b8-7400-c437-a101406a14d9@web.de>
 <mailman.65.1615035996.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20210306150653.37ba10ba@arcor.com>

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 14:06:27 +0100
Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> On 06/03/2021 12:43, Manfred Lotz wrote:
> > On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:00:33 +0100
> > Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
> >   
> >> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file.
> >>
> >> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he
> >> wants to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.
> >>
> >> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an
> >> import only for rtoml, aso.
> >>
> >> How could I achieve this?
> >>  
> > 
> > I got the following minimal example working but presumably my
> > solution isn't the best way.
> > 
> > xtoml.py:
> > 
> > class Xtoml:
> >      def __init__(self, which='rtoml'):
> >          self.which = which
> > 
> >      def parse_toml(self, toml_string):
> >          if self.which == 'rtoml':
> >              import rtoml as toml
> >          elif self.which == 'tomlkit':
> >              import tomlkit as toml
> >          else:
> >              import toml
> > 
> >          return toml.loads(toml_string)
> > 
> > 
> > test_xtoml.py:
> > 
> > from xtoml import Xtoml
> > 
> > toml_string = """
> > [default]
> > 
> > basedir = "/myproject"
> > 
> > """
> > 
> > def main():
> >      xtoml = Xtoml('toml')
> >      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
> >      print(parsed_toml)
> > 
> >      xtoml = Xtoml()
> >      parsed_toml = xtoml.parse_toml(toml_string)
> >      print(parsed_toml)
> > 
> > if __name__ == "__main__":
> >      main()  
> 
> As long as you use a common subset of the functions provided by the 
> packages you can just do
> 

Yes, this is a prereq. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to do this.


> def main():
>      global toml  # if you want to use the toml package elsewhere
>                   # in your module
> 
>      chosen_toml = ...  # get package name
>      toml = importlib.import_module(chosen_toml)
> 
>      data = toml.loads(toml_string)
> 
> However, the user usually doesn't care, so I would recommend that you
> be bold and pick the package you prefer ;)
> 

Exactly. This is why there is a default. 

Using your suggestion my minimal example now looks like follows

xtoml.py:

import importlib

class Xtoml:
    def __init__(self, which='rtoml'):
        self.toml = importlib.import_module(which)

    def parse_toml(self, toml_string):
        return self.toml.loads(toml_string)

No change in test_xtoml.py.


Thanks a lot for your help.


-- 
Manfred




From Bonita.Montero at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 12:49:41 2021
From: Bonita.Montero at gmail.com (Bonita Montero)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:49:41 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4>
Message-ID: <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>

> Whilst you need to read the following:
> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

There is no projection.
_You_ have megalomania, not me.
And there's also no Dunning Kruger effect.
You can't assess your capabilites, not me.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 12:52:41 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 04:52:41 +1100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoqUn_HOXitdXwg6vzL+tp5vt=K9ugu=xTn8bY7G=cSUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 4:51 AM Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Whilst you need to read the following:
> > * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
> > * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
>
> There is no projection.
> _You_ have megalomania, not me.
> And there's also no Dunning Kruger effect.
> You can't assess your capabilites, not me.

Ignore this guy. He produces nothing, insults everyone, and just gets
himself banned from places. He is nothing more than a troll and a
waste of everyone's time.

His posts do not reach the mailing list, only your replies do.

ChrisA

From Bonita.Montero at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 14:11:39 2021
From: Bonita.Montero at gmail.com (Bonita Montero)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 20:11:39 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4>
Message-ID: <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>

>> There is no projection.
>> _You_ have megalomania, not me.
>> And there's also no Dunning Kruger effect.
>> You can't assess your capabilites, not me.

> no u

Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that
translates every language has megalomania. No one can do this.


From chris.m.thomasson.1 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 16:16:24 2021
From: chris.m.thomasson.1 at gmail.com (Chris M. Thomasson)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 13:16:24 -0800
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4>
Message-ID: <s20rf9$3fb$2@gioia.aioe.org>

On 3/6/2021 11:35 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> On 06/03/2021 19:11, Bonita Montero wrote:
>>>> There is no projection.
>>>> _You_ have megalomania, not me.
>>>> And there's also no Dunning Kruger effect.
>>>> You can't assess your capabilites, not me.
>>
>>> no u
>>
>> Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that
>> translates every language has megalomania. No one can do this.
> 
> Just because you can't make one it doesn't follow that nobody else can.

I remember when Bonita tried to convince me that a mutex must use an 
atomic counter.


From ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk  Sat Mar  6 16:24:19 2021
From: ben.usenet at bsb.me.uk (Ben Bacarisse)
Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2021 21:24:19 +0000
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4>
Message-ID: <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>

Mr Flibble <flibble at i42.REMOVETHISBIT.co.uk> writes:

>> Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that
>> translates every language has megalomania. No one can do this.
>
> Just because you can't make one it doesn't follow that nobody else
> can.

True, but lots of very knowledgeable people have tried and failed.  And
although you use the present tense "my universal compiler, neos, that
/can/ compile any programming language" (emphasis mine) you currently
have nothing to show -- no compiler for any language, no paper outlining
how you plan to overcome the problems that stumped others, nothing but
what appears to be a false claim about neos can do.  If you want this
project to be taken seriously, you are going about it the wrong way.

-- 
Ben.

From avigross at verizon.net  Sat Mar  6 16:52:25 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:52:25 -0500
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <07b701d712d2$feee6f30$fccb4d90$@verizon.net>

Just to be clear, and luckily the person who posed such boasts is luckily
gone and I AM NOT interested in having the discussion again here, I have a
point to make.

He did not suggest a magical compiler that could translate any language. Not
exactly.

I think he suggested that if all languages share a large set of paradigms
related to what methods we have for computing, then there may be a way to
capture and store some description of any new language that defines it well
enough. He proposed a sort of universal program, indeed, that would read the
description files and then actual programs and generate something that
ultimately would be runnable. Of course, he basically ignored any little
details along the way and even insisted it would be easy and the result
would be much more efficient in every case.

So, I suggest he is not as bright as he thinks.

I, on the other hand, think it is a hard problem but in some abstract sense
doable given infinite resources and time. Translation, not a worthwhile
quest for NOW. There are accepted theorems that suggests a fairly simple
Turing Machine can solve any problem computable on our current (non-quantum)
generation of computers. The programs would be very far from efficient and
in some cases would require an infinitely long tape and more states than our
universe can accommodate. But in principle, it can do anything as stated
above.

So, any program in any language can theoretically be rewritten as a Turing
Machine version. But that would not be done by a universal translator. I
assume you could do it from say a compiled machine language version for some
languages but it would require access to anything modern programs get from
all kinds of libraries out there that extend the program and if it spawns
other processes or has things run in parallel it gets more and more complex.

But why do it at all? 

Sure, translating parts of some programs in one language to another can make
sense. But why a goal to have a sort of Unified Programming Language Theory
other than as an academic exercise?

Having said that, I keep looking at how languages like Python and R grow and
how they keep adding features including many borrowed or imitated from
elsewhere and I conclude you can just put everything imaginable into Python
and the rest become superfluous! Problem solved.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Bonita Montero
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:12 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library

>> There is no projection.
>> _You_ have megalomania, not me.
>> And there's also no Dunning Kruger effect.
>> You can't assess your capabilites, not me.

> no u

Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that translates
every language has megalomania. No one can do this.

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From chris.m.thomasson.1 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 17:13:26 2021
From: chris.m.thomasson.1 at gmail.com (Chris M. Thomasson)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 14:13:26 -0800
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4>
Message-ID: <s20uq7$1kq0$1@gioia.aioe.org>

On 3/5/2021 8:51 AM, Mr Flibble wrote:
> neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library with arbitrary 
> precision integers, floats and rationals:
> 
> https://github.com/i42output/neonumeric
> 
> It hasn't been formally released yet as it still requires more extensive 
> testing.? It will be used as part of my universal compiler, neos, that 
> can compile any programming language and will be used for the neos 
> implementation of Python (Python has big integers).
> 
> Message ends.

Get atan2, cos and sin, and I have some code to run it against.

https://github.com/ChrisMThomasson/fractal_cipher/blob/master/RIFC/cpp/ct_rifc_sample.cpp

It needs arbitrary precision! :^)

From mirkok.lists at googlemail.com  Sat Mar  6 17:41:10 2021
From: mirkok.lists at googlemail.com (Mirko)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 23:41:10 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
Message-ID: <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com>

Am 06.03.2021 um 22:24 schrieb Ben Bacarisse:
> Mr Flibble <flibble at i42.REMOVETHISBIT.co.uk> writes:
> 
>>> Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that
>>> translates every language has megalomania. No one can do this.
>>
>> Just because you can't make one it doesn't follow that nobody else
>> can.
> 
> True, but lots of very knowledgeable people have tried and failed.

I even wonder why they have tried. Writing a universal
compiler/interpreter sounds logically impossible to me, Here's a
simple Python expression:

>>> 3+3*5
18

And here's the same expression in (GNU) Smalltalk:

st> 3+3*5
30


How would such a universal compiler know which evaluation strategy
to follow, if not by writing a parser end evaluator for every
supported language? And if it's hard for this simple problem, how
about more complex cases.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 17:52:24 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 09:52:24 +1100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmreKfo1zQ+WsAiVnWOV3gKnydafprk5yp6hHW-czyWRdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 9:42 AM Mirko via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> I even wonder why they have tried. Writing a universal
> compiler/interpreter sounds logically impossible to me, Here's a
> simple Python expression:
>
> >>> 3+3*5
> 18
>
> And here's the same expression in (GNU) Smalltalk:
>
> st> 3+3*5
> 30
>
>
> How would such a universal compiler know which evaluation strategy
> to follow, if not by writing a parser end evaluator for every
> supported language? And if it's hard for this simple problem, how
> about more complex cases.

There are two ways in which "universal compiler/interpreter" can
definitely make sense, but neither of them is what he's trying to do.

1) A bytecode or machine code that all other languages can be compiled
to. For example, I'm running an amd64 CPU, so on this computer,
everything ultimately gets executed as amd64 bytecode. It's also
possible to have higher level bytecodes, or even textual languages
(Asm.js can be used as a compilation target).

2) "Compiler compilers" and grammar parsers. These are an excellent
tool for people designing programming language compilers, as they make
it a lot easier to describe the syntax and semantics for the language.

Both of them are tools that programming language developers use. They
don't replace language interpreters any more than a JSON parser
replaces the need to open files.

ChrisA

From svshahbrd at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 21:46:34 2021
From: svshahbrd at gmail.com (sarang shah)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 18:46:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
Message-ID: <35e2ca81-f3c8-41ba-ae50-1f53ff1904adn@googlegroups.com>

I want to make apriori algorithm from start. Anybody have any reference file?

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 22:01:57 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 22:01:57 -0500
Subject: pygame errors
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=it2k9u7zND+PRxMWfVpfp4f9PZC_KVROosySM9sJKXHg@mail.gmail.com>

#Space Invaders!
#Title and Icon
pygame.display.set_caption("Space Invaders")
icon = pygame.image.load('space-invaders.png')
pygame.display.set_icon(icon)
#Player
player_Image = pygame.image.load('player.png')
player_X = 370
player_Y = 480

def player():
    screen.blit(player_Image, player_X, player_Y)


#Game Loop
pygame.init()
screen = pygame.display.set_mode((800, 600))
running = True
while running:

    screen.fill((128, 128, 128))

    for event in pygame.event.get():
        if event.type == pygame.QUIT:
            running = False
    player()
    pygame.display.update()

The window will not display the icon, saying, "invalid destination for blit"

Is this an indentation error? I don't understand why this position
would be invalid.

link to tutorial I'm following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Mar  6 22:47:41 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 03:47:41 +0000
Subject: pygame errors
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=it2k9u7zND+PRxMWfVpfp4f9PZC_KVROosySM9sJKXHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=it2k9u7zND+PRxMWfVpfp4f9PZC_KVROosySM9sJKXHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f70a3f0d-3530-5a2f-b98f-b85f64bbdf62@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-07 03:01, Quentin Bock wrote:
> #Space Invaders!
> #Title and Icon
> pygame.display.set_caption("Space Invaders")
> icon = pygame.image.load('space-invaders.png')
> pygame.display.set_icon(icon)
> #Player
> player_Image = pygame.image.load('player.png')
> player_X = 370
> player_Y = 480
> 
> def player():
>      screen.blit(player_Image, player_X, player_Y)
> 
The position should be given as a 2-tuple, not as 2 separate parameters.

The line should be:

      screen.blit(player_Image, (player_X, player_Y))

> 
> #Game Loop
> pygame.init()
> screen = pygame.display.set_mode((800, 600))
> running = True
> while running:
> 
>      screen.fill((128, 128, 128))
> 
>      for event in pygame.event.get():
>          if event.type == pygame.QUIT:
>              running = False
>      player()
>      pygame.display.update()
> 
> The window will not display the icon, saying, "invalid destination for blit"
> 
> Is this an indentation error? I don't understand why this position
> would be invalid.
> 
> link to tutorial I'm following:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w
> 


From avigross at verizon.net  Sat Mar  6 22:48:57 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 22:48:57 -0500
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <35e2ca81-f3c8-41ba-ae50-1f53ff1904adn@googlegroups.com>
References: <35e2ca81-f3c8-41ba-ae50-1f53ff1904adn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <0c6f01d71304$cd7edfc0$687c9f40$@verizon.net>

	"I want to make apriori algorithm from start. Anybody have any
reference file?"

Excellent question. Based on everything you shared, I think all I can offer
is that whatever you do, do not make the aposteriori version.

Or, you could consider asking a real question with enough detail that maybe
someone understanding it will give you a hint in advance.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of sarang shah
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 9:47 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Apriori Algorithm

I want to make apriori algorithm from start. Anybody have any reference
file?
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From pbryan at anode.ca  Sat Mar  6 23:05:54 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 04:05:54 +0000
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <35e2ca81-f3c8-41ba-ae50-1f53ff1904adn@googlegroups.com>
References: <35e2ca81-f3c8-41ba-ae50-1f53ff1904adn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <010d01780adcf00c-3adab0f4-3c71-4de9-8d57-0197343f3b9a-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

Google tells me this:
https://github.com/tommyod/Efficient-Apriori

On Sat, 2021-03-06 at 18:46 -0800, sarang shah wrote:
> I want to make apriori algorithm from start. Anybody have any
> reference file?


From svshahbrd at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 02:56:42 2021
From: svshahbrd at gmail.com (sarang shah)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 23:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
Message-ID: <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>

I have this dataset in a text file I need to make an apriori algorithm based on it. Please help.

25 52 164 240 274 328 368 448 538 561 630 687 730 775 825 834 
39 120 124 205 401 581 704 814 825 834 
35 249 674 712 733 759 854 950 
39 422 449 704 825 857 895 937 954 964 
15 229 262 283 294 352 381 708 738 766 853 883 966 978 
26 104 143 320 569 620 798 
7 185 214 350 529 658 682 782 809 849 883 947 970 979 
227 390 
71 192 208 272 279 280 300 333 496 529 530 597 618 674 675 720 855 914 932 
183 193 217 256 276 277 374 474 483 496 512 529 626 653 706 878 939 
161 175 177 424 490 571 597 623 766 795 853 910 960 
125 130 327 698 699 839 
392 461 569 801 862 
27 78 104 177 733 775 781 845 900 921 938 
101 147 229 350 411 461 572 579 657 675 778 803 842 903 
71 208 217 266 279 290 458 478 523 614 766 853 888 944 969 
43 70 176 204 227 334 369 480 513 703 708 835 874 895 
25 52 278 730 
151 432 504 830 890 

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Mar  7 03:09:01 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 21:09:01 +1300
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>
References: <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <923f9f08-32a7-feb9-cf96-aa1e68401fd6@DancesWithMice.info>

On 07/03/2021 20.56, sarang shah wrote:
> I have this dataset in a text file I need to make an apriori algorithm based on it. Please help.
> 
> 25 52 164 240 274 328 368 448 538 561 630 687 730 775 825 834 
> 39 120 124 205 401 581 704 814 825 834 
> 35 249 674 712 733 759 854 950 
> 39 422 449 704 825 857 895 937 954 964 
> 15 229 262 283 294 352 381 708 738 766 853 883 966 978 
> 26 104 143 320 569 620 798 
> 7 185 214 350 529 658 682 782 809 849 883 947 970 979 
> 227 390 
> 71 192 208 272 279 280 300 333 496 529 530 597 618 674 675 720 855 914 932 
> 183 193 217 256 276 277 374 474 483 496 512 529 626 653 706 878 939 
> 161 175 177 424 490 571 597 623 766 795 853 910 960 
> 125 130 327 698 699 839 
> 392 461 569 801 862 
> 27 78 104 177 733 775 781 845 900 921 938 
> 101 147 229 350 411 461 572 579 657 675 778 803 842 903 
> 71 208 217 266 279 290 458 478 523 614 766 853 888 944 969 
> 43 70 176 204 227 334 369 480 513 703 708 835 874 895 
> 25 52 278 730 
> 151 432 504 830 890 


Great!
For what purpose - is this a 'homework assignment'?
What code do you have so far?

-- 
Regards,
=dn

From real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk  Sun Mar  7 05:19:34 2021
From: real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 10:19:34 +0000
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
Message-ID: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>

Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.

There's also documentation: <https://c-is-for-camera.readthedocs.io>.

It's a pure Python model of the physical sub-systems of a camera and
their interactions. So far it's at a fairly high level - I haven't yet
got down to the level of individual springs and levers yet.

I spend quite a bit of my time repairing old cameras. To me they feel
like computer programs encoded into physical objects, and figuring out
how a mechanism works feels like working out how code works (but more
fun).

The Canonet G-III QL17 is one of my favourites. One of my reasons for
writing this code is to appreciate the intricate mechanical logic
embodied in the machine.

You can do things like advance the film, release the shutter, meter the
scene with the built-in light meter (if the camera has a battery of
course) and even spoil your film if you make the mistake of opening the
back in daylight.

    >>> from camera import Camera
    >>> c = Camera()

    >>> c.state()
    ================== Camera state =================

    ------------------ Controls ---------------------
    Selected speed:            1/120

    ------------------ Mechanical -------------------
    Back closed:               True
    Lens cap on:               False
    Film advance mechanism:    False
    Frame counter:             0
    Shutter cocked:            False
    Shutter timer:             1/128 seconds
    Iris aperture:             ?/16
    Camera exposure settings:  15.0 EV

    ------------------ Metering ---------------------
    Light meter reading:        4096 cd/m^2
    Exposure target:            15.0 EV
    Mode:                       Shutter priority
    Battery:                    1.44 V
    Film speed:                 100 ISO

    ------------------ Film -------------------------
    Speed:                      100 ISO
    Rewound into cartridge:     False
    Exposed frames:             0 (of 24)
    Ruined:                     False

    ------------------ Environment ------------------
    Scene luminosity:           4096 cd/m^2

    >>> c.film_advance_mechanism.advance()
    Cocking shutter
    Cocked

    >>> c.shutter.trip()
    Shutter opens
    Shutter closes
    Shutter opened for 1/128 seconds
    Shutter uncocked

You can't do impossible things:

    >>> c.shutter_speed = 1/33
    Traceback (most recent call last):
      File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
      File "/Users/daniele/Repositories/camera/camera.py", line 29, in 
        shutter_speed
        raise self.NonExistentShutterSpeed(f"Possible shutter speeds are
          {possible_settings}")
    camera.NonExistentShutterSpeed: Possible shutter speeds are 1/4, 
      1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/120, 1/240, 1/500

But you can also do things that you shouldn't do, like opening the back
of the camera in daylight with a partially-exposed roll of film inside -
which will spoil the film::

    >>> c.back.open()
    Opening back
    Resetting frame counter to 0
    'Film is ruined'

I hope this interesting to someone.

Daniele

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  7 05:21:14 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 7 Mar 2021 10:21:14 GMT
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
Message-ID: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>

Hello,

I'm trying to add logging to a module that gets imported by another module. But
I only get it to work right if the imported module knows the name of the
importing module. The example given in the "Logging Cookbook" also rely on this
fact.

https://docs.python.org/3/howto/logging-cookbook.html#logging-cookbook

I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library that
doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that done?

Here's some example code consisting of the main module foo.py and imported
modules bar.py and baz.py


### foo.py
import logging

import bar, baz

formatter = logging.Formatter(
    '%(asctime)s - %(name)s - %(levelname)s - %(message)s')

ch = logging.StreamHandler()
ch.setFormatter(formatter)

logger = logging.getLogger('foo')
logger.addHandler(ch)
logger.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)

logger.debug('debug from <%s>', __name__)
logger.info('info from <%s>', __name__)
logger.warning('warning from <%s>', __name__)
logger.error('error from <%s>', __name__)

bar.func()
baz.func()

### bar.py
'''This "generic" approach doesn't honor loglevel or formats
when imported by another module'''
import logging

l = logging.getLogger(__name__)
def func():
    l.debug('debug from <%s>', __name__)
    l.info('info from <%s>', __name__)
    l.warning('warning from <%s>', __name__)
    l.error('error from <%s>', __name__)

### baz.py
'''This only works if the importing module is named 'foo', which
precludes its use as a library module'''
import logging

l = logging.getLogger('foo.baz')
def func():
    l.debug('debug from <%s>', __name__)
    l.info('info from <%s>', __name__)
    l.warning('warning from <%s>', __name__)
    l.error('error from <%s>', __name__)


From pjfarley3 at earthlink.net  Sun Mar  7 02:16:46 2021
From: pjfarley3 at earthlink.net (pjfarley3 at earthlink.net)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 02:16:46 -0500
Subject: python curses constant names for mouse wheel movements?
Message-ID: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>

I have a python curses project trying to detect mouse wheel movements, and I
understand that mouse wheel events by convention are reported as BUTTON4 and
BUTTON5 events.

I am running on a Win10 system with python 3.8.7 and windows-curses 2.2.0,
which I am given to understand uses the gohlke PDCurses wheels for the
underlying curses implementation.

I can display the values of all of the BUTTON1 to BUTTON4 event constants
but python 3.8.7 barfs if I try to use any BUTTON5 event names.  It also
does not recognize the BUTTONn_RESERVED_EVENT names for buttons 1-4.

print(       "B1={:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x}\n".format(
                    curses.BUTTON1_RELEASED, curses.BUTTON1_PRESSED,
curses.BUTTON1_CLICKED, 
                    curses.BUTTON1_DOUBLE_CLICKED,
curses.BUTTON1_TRIPLE_CLICKED) + \
                "B2={:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x}\n".format(
                    curses.BUTTON2_RELEASED, curses.BUTTON2_PRESSED,
curses.BUTTON2_CLICKED, 
                    curses.BUTTON2_DOUBLE_CLICKED,
curses.BUTTON2_TRIPLE_CLICKED) + \
                "B3={:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x}\n".format(
                    curses.BUTTON3_RELEASED, curses.BUTTON3_PRESSED,
curses.BUTTON3_CLICKED, 
                    curses.BUTTON3_DOUBLE_CLICKED,
curses.BUTTON3_TRIPLE_CLICKED) + \
                "B4={:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x},{:08x}\n".format(
                    curses.BUTTON4_RELEASED, curses.BUTTON4_PRESSED,
curses.BUTTON4_CLICKED, 
                    curses.BUTTON4_DOUBLE_CLICKED,
curses.BUTTON4_TRIPLE_CLICKED) + \
                "S/C/A={:08x},{:08x},{:08x}".format(
                    curses.BUTTON_SHIFT, curses.BUTTON_CTRL,
curses.BUTTON_ALT))

yields this output:

B1=00000001,00000002,00000004,00000008,00000010
B2=00000020,00000040,00000080,00000100,00000200
B3=00000400,00000800,00001000,00002000,00004000
B4=00008000,00010000,00020000,00040000,00080000
S/C/A=04000000,08000000,10000000

Any attempt to use a BUTTON5 constant name or BUTTONn_RESERVED_EVENT
constant name fails:

Python 3.8.7 (tags/v3.8.7:6503f05, Dec 21 2020, 17:59:51) [MSC v.1928 64 bit
(AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> import curses
>>> print("B5={:08x}".format(curses.BUTTON5_RELEASED))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: module 'curses' has no attribute 'BUTTON5_RELEASED'
>>> print("B5={:08x}".format(curses.BUTTON1_RESERVED_EVENT))
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
AttributeError: module 'curses' has no attribute 'BUTTON1_RESERVED_EVENT'

When I actually capture mouse wheel events, the wheel-up event is reported
as 0x00010000 or BUTTON4_PRESSED, but the wheel-down event is reported as 0x
00200000, which has no constant name associated with it for which I can find
any documentation.

This is a logging trace if curses.get_wch() and curses.getkey() results and
the curses.getmouse() results when KEY_MOUSE is returned.  I have manually
annotated the getmouse display lines indicating what mouse action I actually
performed.

DEBUG:root:wch='539' = 0x021b at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:3ch='KEY_MOUSE at (0,0)'
DEBUG:root:3ch KEY_MOUSE detected at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:Mouse data id=0, x=60, y=31, z=0, bs=00000004
Button 1 click
DEBUG:root:wch='539' = 0x021b at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:3ch='KEY_MOUSE at (0,0)'
DEBUG:root:3ch KEY_MOUSE detected at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:Mouse data id=0, x=-1, y=-1, z=0, bs=00010000
wheel up once
DEBUG:root:wch='539' = 0x021b at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:3ch='KEY_MOUSE at (0,0)'
DEBUG:root:3ch KEY_MOUSE detected at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:Mouse data id=0, x=-1, y=-1, z=0, bs=00200000
wheel down once
DEBUG:root:wch='539' = 0x021b at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:3ch='KEY_MOUSE at (0,0)'
DEBUG:root:3ch KEY_MOUSE detected at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:Mouse data id=0, x=-1, y=-1, z=0, bs=00010000
wheel up once
DEBUG:root:wch='539' = 0x021b at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:3ch='KEY_MOUSE at (0,0)'
DEBUG:root:3ch KEY_MOUSE detected at (0,0)
DEBUG:root:Mouse data id=0, x=-1, y=-1, z=0, bs=00200000
wheel down once

Where can I find any documentation of the correct curses constant name(s) to
use for detecting a "wheel down" action?  Or do I just have to manually
define my own BUTTON5 constant name for the wheel-down event?

TIA for any help or RTFM you can provide.

Peter



From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 10:36:12 2021
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 00:36:12 +0900
Subject: google text-to-speech python
Message-ID: <CANevj7uu=Hz-6sTNwW4xgQKPaevuWo4WndzoRiR9cnKCZ6fYMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Anyone familiar with how to change speech pace with python script?

Thanks!

From avigross at verizon.net  Sun Mar  7 12:54:54 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 12:54:54 -0500
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <923f9f08-32a7-feb9-cf96-aa1e68401fd6@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>
 <923f9f08-32a7-feb9-cf96-aa1e68401fd6@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <030301d7137a$fb41f2a0$f1c5d7e0$@verizon.net>

I apologize for my earlier snide remark as I was not then aware there was an
algorithm called apriori based on the Latin term and wondered if someone was
pulling someone's leg, in advance.

Someone has posted a pointer to Python code that is supposed to do that. If
that is suitable, then the serious task is to read what they say and use it.
I note the data you show below is ambiguous and not in the format that code
asks for.

Are you saying each line I see of what looks like integers is a grouping you
want to contrast to other such lines in the algorithm? I doubt it can be
used as is but needs to become some kind of data structure such as a list of
tuples or whatever the algorithm wants.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of dn via Python-list
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 3:09 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: Apriori Algorithm

On 07/03/2021 20.56, sarang shah wrote:
> I have this dataset in a text file I need to make an apriori algorithm
based on it. Please help.
> 
> 25 52 164 240 274 328 368 448 538 561 630 687 730 775 825 834 
> 39 120 124 205 401 581 704 814 825 834 
> 35 249 674 712 733 759 854 950 
> 39 422 449 704 825 857 895 937 954 964 
> 15 229 262 283 294 352 381 708 738 766 853 883 966 978 
> 26 104 143 320 569 620 798 
> 7 185 214 350 529 658 682 782 809 849 883 947 970 979 
> 227 390 
> 71 192 208 272 279 280 300 333 496 529 530 597 618 674 675 720 855 914 932

> 183 193 217 256 276 277 374 474 483 496 512 529 626 653 706 878 939 
> 161 175 177 424 490 571 597 623 766 795 853 910 960 
> 125 130 327 698 699 839 
> 392 461 569 801 862 
> 27 78 104 177 733 775 781 845 900 921 938 
> 101 147 229 350 411 461 572 579 657 675 778 803 842 903 
> 71 208 217 266 279 290 458 478 523 614 766 853 888 944 969 
> 43 70 176 204 227 334 369 480 513 703 708 835 874 895 
> 25 52 278 730 
> 151 432 504 830 890 


Great!
For what purpose - is this a 'homework assignment'?
What code do you have so far?

-- 
Regards,
=dn
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From dieter at handshake.de  Sun Mar  7 13:00:00 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 19:00:00 +0100
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
In-Reply-To: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <24645.5280.490579.951586@ixdm.fritz.box>

Robert Latest wrote at 2021-3-7 10:21 GMT:
>I'm trying to add logging to a module that gets imported by another module. But
>I only get it to work right if the imported module knows the name of the
>importing module. The example given in the "Logging Cookbook" also rely on this
>fact.

I have used so called "monkey patching" to achieve something like this
(in fact "function call tracing").
"monkey patching" means code modification at runtime.

Suppose your application implements a logging decorator `log`.
Then on import, you can replace methods (easiest) or functions
with decorated variants either directly in the imported module/class
or for use by the importer.

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Mar  6 10:40:41 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:40:41 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <s207pp$10tl$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-06, Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file. 
>
> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package. 

Why would the user choose one over the other?  Does the user get
different functions/features depending on which one they choose?

If you're just using a common subset to provide a fixed set of
features regardless, then just use whatever is installed.

--
Grant



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar  6 16:24:41 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2021 16:24:41 -0500
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
In-Reply-To: <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>

Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially 
with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.  A troll, among other 
things, is that method or the lure used.

On the internet, 'troll' is used metaphorically.  A troll is a flashy 
post designed to catch peoples emotions and hook them into responding. 
Trolling is posting such posts.  People do this either out of compulsion 
or for entertainment.

Quite separately, a troll in Scandinavian folklore is an unpleasant 
mythical creature living in a cave, or perhaps under or around a bridge. 
Bridge trolls are reputed to disrupt communication by travel.

Fishermen would not call a person trolling for fish a troll.  It would 
be an insult.  On the internet, we do call people trolling trolls, again 
methphorically, because they disrupt communication.

The proper response to trolls is to not feed them by responding as they 
wish.  When people respond, they continue trolling, and a moderator has 
to ban them.

People reading python-list posts on google groups or comp.lang.python 
should not help them evade their bans by quoting them.

On 3/6/2021 2:11 PM, Bonita Montero, responding to a banned troll for at 
least a third time:

> Someone who says that he is capable of writing a compiler that
> translates every language has megalomania. No one can do this.

We certainly need not believe so until it is done.

But we do not know whether X is an actual megalomaniac acting like a 
troll or an actual troll acting like a megalomaniac.  The same can apply 
to any other character type that can lead to trolling or be assumed as a 
pose by a troll.

In Spanish, bonito/a means a pretty male/female.  By coincidence, it is 
also a tuna-like fish caught by trolling.  (Decades ago, my father 
caught one on a boat one a Mexican river/lagoon.)  Please unhook 
yourself and swim away.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From hjp-python at hjp.at  Sun Mar  7 14:42:53 2021
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 20:42:53 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>

On 2021-03-06 23:41:10 +0100, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> I even wonder why they have tried. Writing a universal
> compiler/interpreter sounds logically impossible to me, Here's a
> simple Python expression:
> 
> >>> 3+3*5
> 18
> 
> And here's the same expression in (GNU) Smalltalk:
> 
> st> 3+3*5
> 30
> 
> 
> How would such a universal compiler know which evaluation strategy
> to follow, if not by writing a parser end evaluator for every
> supported language?

That depends on what you mean by "writing". If we stick to your example,
you would need to specify in some way that in Python * has higher
precedence than +, while in Smalltalk it doesn't. You could write some
code in Python or Smalltalk or C or Assembler or even for a Turing
machine to do that. Or you can write the grammar in some formal language
(e.g. BNF) and let the compiler interpret that (or generate native code
from it and run that). The latter is what a "universal compiler" would
do and parser generators have been around for a long time (they were
nothing new when I studied CS in the 1980's). While there is still
progress here (I've come across a few interesting papers over the last
year or so), I'd say that part of the problem is solved.

The second part is converting a parse tree into code. I am quite sure
that it is possible to devise a formal language to specify the semantics
of any programming language and then to use this to generate the code.
However, I strongly suspect that such a language would be comparable in
expressiveness and ease of use to other programming languages - or in
other worlds it would be just another programming language. Certainly
better suited to compiler construction (otherwise why would you use
it?), but probably not massively so (unlike writing a Yacc grammar is a
lot easier/quicker than writing a top-down parser), So there wouldn't be
a huge incentive to use it unless you plan to write compilers for lots
of languages. On the other hand there are downsides: Such a generic
system might be slow and/or memory-hungry, it might not run on every
platform, it might have a steep learning curve, and it's probably not so
well-suited for non-compiler programs.

> And if it's hard for this simple problem, how about more complex
> cases.

For this simple problem it's easy :-)

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From jcasale at activenetwerx.com  Sun Mar  7 15:14:16 2021
From: jcasale at activenetwerx.com (Joseph L. Casale)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 20:14:16 +0000
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
In-Reply-To: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>

> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library that
> doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that done?

Hello,
That's not how it works, it is the opposite. You need to know the name of its logger,
and since you imported it, you do.

Logging is hierarchical, organized by dot separated names. However, all loggers
share the same root (top level) logger (a logger without any name, or in other words,
no hierarchical specificity). Loggers are singletons, all loggers share the same root
and each time you get a logger, if any code has previously asked for that logger by
name and therefore created it, you'll get that instance.

When you create a logger, it starts at level WARNING, which means only warnings
or higher are considered.

When you create a handler, it starts at level NOTSET, which means only level 0
and above are considered. Since NOTSET is 0, everything is considered by default.

Loggers pass messages that they are considering to all their handlers, which then
each filter again by the handlers own distinct level.

Don't add handlers in library code (except a null handler).

Do set a level on your library logger that you deem appropriate (INFO is likely
not appropriate).

Then, in your consuming code, if you instantiate a named logger, you won't see
messages that fall below the threshold of the library, and root defaults.

Create (get) a root logger (you don't have to use it) and set the level, and attach a
handler to it. Then get the logger your library uses and set the level to what you want.

Proceed with creating your own named logger and using that in your code, however
when the library emits a log message, it will traverse up, unfiltered and be passed to
a handler.

Think of the process like a tree data structure,  with the single root at the top, and
each immediate child being a named logger without additional specificity (no dot),
and each child of those taking the named plus one dot, followed by another name.

That helps when understanding the design behavior of propagation, and rather than
restate what is already well done, see https://docs.python.org/3/library/logging.html#logging.Logger.propagate. 

It does make a lot of sense, and it facilitates a concise and powerful ability to configure
an application where some messages can be ignored, written to different files, combined
into one, or some even emailed.

Last word of advice, don't fight it by hacking up or patching (somehow?), it will
simply not work right for any other case even slightly different than the one you
somehow beat into submission.

I hope that helps,
Joseph Casale


From avigross at verizon.net  Sun Mar  7 15:52:02 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 15:52:02 -0500
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com> <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>
Message-ID: <01fd01d71393$b9b64750$2d22d5f0$@verizon.net>

The precedence example used below made a strange assumption that the
imaginary program would not be told up-front what computer language it was
being asked to convert from. That is not the scenario being discussed as we
have described. In any particular language, there usually is a well-known
precedence order such as "*" coming before "+" unless you use something like
parentheses to make your intent clear and over-ride it.

But it makes me think of a related question. Assume you are writing code in
a language like Python and the language has been analyzed and all kinds of
info stored that describes it and that includes things like precedence rules
for operators. Suppose it works fine and YOU want to break it. Could you?

If your language supports constructs like creating what looks like new infix
operators as an example, or overloading existing ones, could you write
expressions this mystical product would interpret differently than the
original compiler or interpreter?

As an example, what does this simple statement mean:

A + B

I mean A can be an integer or floating point number or character string but
can also be a complex number or a data.frame  or just about any arbitrary
object. So can B. And in many cases, the operation is not at all Abelian and
B+A is something else. In many cases, the logic is to look at the right-hand
or left-hand variable and see if it has a method defined to be called such
as __ADD__ or __RADD__  or maybe  inherited such a method from another class
perhaps using some specific method with complicated multiple inheritance
scenarios. Or the language may choose to convert either A or B or both to
some other format and perform some kind of addition and maybe convert the
result to something. Lots of work is in the Python interpreter to deal with
this and some of it has to be flexible enough to deal with times when a
class or object is changed as the program runs. Might it be possible to
create edge cases that break a static set of description files? If not, how
much more complex must the imaginary program get to handle these challenges
and what might that do to the purported gains in efficiency claimed?

I am currently studying a language called Kotlin. They, like some other
languages, allow the creation of new infix operators and once I have defined
"myplus" I can write code like:

A myplus B

What if it would also allow me to specify dynamically what the priority of
"myplus" is? Clearly it cannot be a reserved keyword in some table loaded in
the language in advance. R lets me do something similar like create
"%myplus%" as an operator and even weirder things like rebinding "+" to mean
something else that no longer has a particular priority that was
pre-ordained.

So if we had a contest on finding ways to break a sort of general purpose
customizable any-language mangler, I wonder if it might be easy to mangle it
at first. To get around that, you might have to not handle languages you
declare as misbehaving, or make a more complex system that handles all known
cases. But even then, can we design a new language for the express purpose
of exposing some hidden flaw and make them deal with that?

New languages keep popping up, some with no prior intent on breaking
anything, but I think a universal translator may not be imminent.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Peter J. Holzer
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 2:43 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library

On 2021-03-06 23:41:10 +0100, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> I even wonder why they have tried. Writing a universal 
> compiler/interpreter sounds logically impossible to me, Here's a 
> simple Python expression:
> 
> >>> 3+3*5
> 18
> 
> And here's the same expression in (GNU) Smalltalk:
> 
> st> 3+3*5
> 30
> 
> 
> How would such a universal compiler know which evaluation strategy to 
> follow, if not by writing a parser end evaluator for every supported 
> language?

That depends on what you mean by "writing". If we stick to your example, you
would need to specify in some way that in Python * has higher precedence
than +, while in Smalltalk it doesn't. You could write some code in Python
or Smalltalk or C or Assembler or even for a Turing machine to do that. Or
you can write the grammar in some formal language (e.g. BNF) and let the
compiler interpret that (or generate native code from it and run that). The
latter is what a "universal compiler" would do and parser generators have
been around for a long time (they were nothing new when I studied CS in the
1980's). While there is still progress here (I've come across a few
interesting papers over the last year or so), I'd say that part of the
problem is solved.

The second part is converting a parse tree into code. I am quite sure that
it is possible to devise a formal language to specify the semantics of any
programming language and then to use this to generate the code.
However, I strongly suspect that such a language would be comparable in
expressiveness and ease of use to other programming languages - or in other
worlds it would be just another programming language. Certainly better
suited to compiler construction (otherwise why would you use it?), but
probably not massively so (unlike writing a Yacc grammar is a lot
easier/quicker than writing a top-down parser), So there wouldn't be a huge
incentive to use it unless you plan to write compilers for lots of
languages. On the other hand there are downsides: Such a generic system
might be slow and/or memory-hungry, it might not run on every platform, it
might have a steep learning curve, and it's probably not so well-suited for
non-compiler programs.

> And if it's hard for this simple problem, how about more complex 
> cases.

For this simple problem it's easy :-)

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"


From svshahbrd at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 17:23:01 2021
From: svshahbrd at gmail.com (sarang shah)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 14:23:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <mailman.10.1615139702.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <AQJouJQcuzm3eZsHQE52A8/vJj5hfQGVjJTbqUixEwA=>
 <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>
 <030301d7137a$fb41f2a0$f1c5d7e0$@verizon.net>
 <923f9f08-32a7-feb9-cf96-aa1e68401fd6@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.10.1615139702.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a3e315c5-a033-4a4f-8847-9c16a107f255n@googlegroups.com>

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 11:55:21 AM UTC-6, Avi Gross wrote:
> I apologize for my earlier snide remark as I was not then aware there was an 
> algorithm called apriori based on the Latin term and wondered if someone was 
> pulling someone's leg, in advance. 
> 
> Someone has posted a pointer to Python code that is supposed to do that. If 
> that is suitable, then the serious task is to read what they say and use it. 
> I note the data you show below is ambiguous and not in the format that code 
> asks for. 
> 
> Are you saying each line I see of what looks like integers is a grouping you 
> want to contrast to other such lines in the algorithm? I doubt it can be 
> used as is but needs to become some kind of data structure such as a list of 
> tuples or whatever the algorithm wants.
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=veriz... at python.org> On
> Behalf Of dn via Python-list 
> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 3:09 AM 
> To: pytho... at python.org 
> Subject: Re: Apriori Algorithm 
> 
> On 07/03/2021 20.56, sarang shah wrote:
> > I have this dataset in a text file I need to make an apriori algorithm 
> based on it. Please help. 
> > 
> > 25 52 164 240 274 328 368 448 538 561 630 687 730 775 825 834 
> > 39 120 124 205 401 581 704 814 825 834 
> > 35 249 674 712 733 759 854 950 
> > 39 422 449 704 825 857 895 937 954 964 
> > 15 229 262 283 294 352 381 708 738 766 853 883 966 978 
> > 26 104 143 320 569 620 798 
> > 7 185 214 350 529 658 682 782 809 849 883 947 970 979 
> > 227 390 
> > 71 192 208 272 279 280 300 333 496 529 530 597 618 674 675 720 855 914 932 
> 
> > 183 193 217 256 276 277 374 474 483 496 512 529 626 653 706 878 939 
> > 161 175 177 424 490 571 597 623 766 795 853 910 960 
> > 125 130 327 698 699 839 
> > 392 461 569 801 862 
> > 27 78 104 177 733 775 781 845 900 921 938 
> > 101 147 229 350 411 461 572 579 657 675 778 803 842 903 
> > 71 208 217 266 279 290 458 478 523 614 766 853 888 944 969 
> > 43 70 176 204 227 334 369 480 513 703 708 835 874 895 
> > 25 52 278 730 
> > 151 432 504 830 890
> Great! 
> For what purpose - is this a 'homework assignment'? 
> What code do you have so far? 
> 
> -- 
> Regards, 
> =dn
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list




Yes. Each line is a group set. 

a.Pleaseimplement analgorithm of your choice (Apriori, or FP-Tree) tofind frequent itemsets. You can importstandardlibraries/modules, but thealgorithm should be written by yourself. Min-support should be a user input parameter. Two sample of transaction datasets, Dataset1and Dataset2, are providedto test if your program works correctly.You can usePython, Java or C++.

 b.  Extend your program to output all the maximal frequent itemsets and closed frequent itemsets. 
c.  Extend your program to output all the association rules. Min-Confidence should be a user input parameter. For all the association rules, output measures include support, confidence, lift, all-confidence and cosine.



From ml_news at posteo.de  Sun Mar  7 16:24:57 2021
From: ml_news at posteo.de (Manfred Lotz)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 22:24:57 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com> <s207pp$10tl$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.12.1615145010.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20210307222457.49bcc6bf@arcor.com>

On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:40:41 -0000 (UTC)
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2021-03-06, Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
> > Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file. 
> >
> > I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he
> > wants to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.   
> 
> Why would the user choose one over the other?  Does the user get
> different functions/features depending on which one they choose?
> 

I am a user of my package and I like to use rtoml which however is not
available on another OS (due to Rust no being available there) where I
also want to use my package. Here I can use toml which is always
possible to install. Therefore, toml is the default so that the ordinary
user doesn't need to care.


-- 
Manfred


From avigross at verizon.net  Sun Mar  7 17:44:55 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 17:44:55 -0500
Subject: Apriori Algorithm
In-Reply-To: <a3e315c5-a033-4a4f-8847-9c16a107f255n@googlegroups.com>
References: <AQJouJQcuzm3eZsHQE52A8/vJj5hfQGVjJTbqUixEwA=>
 <1aabc84a-f00e-4c4c-bd81-7c902d2283f2n@googlegroups.com>
 <030301d7137a$fb41f2a0$f1c5d7e0$@verizon.net>
 <923f9f08-32a7-feb9-cf96-aa1e68401fd6@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.10.1615139702.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <a3e315c5-a033-4a4f-8847-9c16a107f255n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <004501d713a3$7eed0ae0$7cc720a0$@verizon.net>

Speaking for myself, that is a very significant piece of homework to do and
unless you do quite a bit and get stuck and ask for help in some aspect,
this is not the place to ask if anyone wishes to do all the work.

The assignment seems to want you to write your own code to implement the
algorithm. So unless the outlines of the algorithm were taught in class or a
textbook, you need to find the algorithm by searching the internet and you
may find places with more or less of a good description:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apriori_algorithm

Once you find one you need to choose a language you are able to program in
from the list of choices and see what libraries of allowed components are
likely to be helpful so you do not have to start from nothing but the
basics. If you decide on JAVA or C++, this is not the forum to ask.

As I noted earlier, your data will need to be read in by any program and
made into whatever format your algorithm uses. What this is will be up to
you but note you have a collection of collections where you are told of two
very specific datasets that must be handled by the algorithm. So your
algorithm might be asked to just handle interest, or perhaps also character
strings and arbitrary items. You need to know what is expected so you design
your code to handle it. Given the nature of the data you show, it should not
use anything that holds a fixed number of items as the number of items per
line varies and presumably it should handle any number of such lines.

It looks like for a basic version they suggest a particular parameter be
included and they want an extended version that does more and another that
does even more.

Looks like a serious amount of work and way too detailed to expect anything
but this kind of answer. Many people get paid hundreds of dollars per hour
to do things like this and if you learn how, you could be one.

Presumably your class has taught you most of what is needed to understand
the assignment and how to find out more. I, like most others here, have not
been in the class or had any reason to think about this problem before. Any
voluntary role here is generally to help with questions about fairly
specific python code as compared to big projects.

Good luck!

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of sarang shah
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 5:23 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: Apriori Algorithm

On Sunday, March 7, 2021 at 11:55:21 AM UTC-6, Avi Gross wrote:
> I apologize for my earlier snide remark as I was not then aware there 
> was an algorithm called apriori based on the Latin term and wondered 
> if someone was pulling someone's leg, in advance.
> 
> Someone has posted a pointer to Python code that is supposed to do 
> that. If that is suitable, then the serious task is to read what they say
and use it.
> I note the data you show below is ambiguous and not in the format that 
> code asks for.
> 
> Are you saying each line I see of what looks like integers is a 
> grouping you want to contrast to other such lines in the algorithm? I 
> doubt it can be used as is but needs to become some kind of data 
> structure such as a list of tuples or whatever the algorithm wants.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=veriz... at python.org> 
> On Behalf Of dn via Python-list
> Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 3:09 AM
> To: pytho... at python.org
> Subject: Re: Apriori Algorithm
> 
> On 07/03/2021 20.56, sarang shah wrote:
> > I have this dataset in a text file I need to make an apriori 
> > algorithm
> based on it. Please help. 
> > 
> > 25 52 164 240 274 328 368 448 538 561 630 687 730 775 825 834
> > 39 120 124 205 401 581 704 814 825 834
> > 35 249 674 712 733 759 854 950
> > 39 422 449 704 825 857 895 937 954 964
> > 15 229 262 283 294 352 381 708 738 766 853 883 966 978
> > 26 104 143 320 569 620 798
> > 7 185 214 350 529 658 682 782 809 849 883 947 970 979
> > 227 390
> > 71 192 208 272 279 280 300 333 496 529 530 597 618 674 675 720 855 
> > 914 932
> 
> > 183 193 217 256 276 277 374 474 483 496 512 529 626 653 706 878 939
> > 161 175 177 424 490 571 597 623 766 795 853 910 960
> > 125 130 327 698 699 839
> > 392 461 569 801 862
> > 27 78 104 177 733 775 781 845 900 921 938
> > 101 147 229 350 411 461 572 579 657 675 778 803 842 903
> > 71 208 217 266 279 290 458 478 523 614 766 853 888 944 969
> > 43 70 176 204 227 334 369 480 513 703 708 835 874 895
> > 25 52 278 730
> > 151 432 504 830 890
> Great! 
> For what purpose - is this a 'homework assignment'? 
> What code do you have so far? 
> 
> --
> Regards,
> =dn
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list




Yes. Each line is a group set. 

a.Pleaseimplement analgorithm of your choice (Apriori, or FP-Tree) tofind
frequent itemsets. You can importstandardlibraries/modules, but thealgorithm
should be written by yourself. Min-support should be a user input parameter.
Two sample of transaction datasets, Dataset1and Dataset2, are providedto
test if your program works correctly.You can usePython, Java or C++.

 b.  Extend your program to output all the maximal frequent itemsets and
closed frequent itemsets. 
c.  Extend your program to output all the association rules. Min-Confidence
should be a user input parameter. For all the association rules, output
measures include support, confidence, lift, all-confidence and cosine.


--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From rsstinnett at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 18:46:41 2021
From: rsstinnett at gmail.com (Russell)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 23:46:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: editor recommendations?
References: <41697044-4479-97c6-4913-11de27f79565@stoneleaf.us>
 <mailman.207.1614351068.14271.python-list@python.org>
 <s1n1cr$1ee5$1@gioia.aioe.org>
 <CAGGBd_qsauf-YGkMsgNc1Fn+fDF7Rsg5MzhvcwzUNLzmVnxbog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_r7sD6QMf1gazJJN4vQ8uo0z5iXYNypgRe5-0Kt7VE8kA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.28.1614747258.3067.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s23ol1$4tl$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:11 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 8:00 PM Russell <rsstinnett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>> > I'm currently using vim, and the primary reason I've stuck with it for
>>> so long is because I can get truly black screens with it.  By which I mean
>>> that I have a colorful window title bar, a light-grey menu bar, and then a
>>> light-grey frame around the text-editing window (aka the only window), and
>>> a nice, black-background editing area.
>>>
>>> I use vim. It's actually extremely powerful, especially for text/code
>>> editing. I'd recommend reading one of the many books on using vim
>>> effectively. Also, plugins can really add a lot...
>>>
>>
>> On the subject of learning vim: There's an excellent vi cheat sheet
>> available on the internet.  I've put a copy of it at
>> https://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/vi.ref.6
>>
>> vi is of course the predecessor of vim. But that cheat sheet is still
>> great for learning much of vim.
>>
> 
> I just ran across:  http://lib.ru/MAN/viref.txt
> ...which is pretty much the same thing, but converted to nice HTML.

To that end, vim also has extensive documentation built in. Just type
:help to get started. There's a pretty good tutorial accessible from the
main help screen. 

And I'll stop talking about vim in the Python group now, I promise. :)

-- 
rust
0x68caecc97f6a90122e51c0692c88d9cb6b58a3dc

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar  7 19:21:02 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 00:21:02 +0000
Subject: python curses constant names for mouse wheel movements?
In-Reply-To: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>
References: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <s23qlh$10vn$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 07/03/2021 07:16, pjfarley3 at earthlink.net wrote:

> Where can I find any documentation of the correct curses constant name(s) to
> use for detecting a "wheel down" action?  Or do I just have to manually
> define my own BUTTON5 constant name for the wheel-down event?

I suspect you need to look in the ncurses documentation or
even the C code. And that is no guarantee that the Python
curses module will expose any values you do find other
than as numeric codes.

I would have expected the mouse wheel down/click to appear as
a BUTTON2 event to be honest. I didn't even realize there was
a BUTTON4 event defined let alone BUTTON5.

Incidentally, when you talk about wheel up/down are you
talking about wheel rotation events rather than actual
button down/up events? In that case 4 and 5 might make sense.

If you find the answer please post back, I'm very interested
since I'm in the middle of writing a book on the Python curses
module and was unaware of this behaviour. A whole new area
to explore.... I'm also interested in any documentation you
have already found on it - where did you get this understanding?

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From drsalists at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 23:38:30 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2021 20:38:30 -0800
Subject: Choosable dependency
In-Reply-To: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_p6+OVCMMKo3g2SjaONCbddWCCUi8YaVSAoNrUn1nYLug@mail.gmail.com>

I sometimes do things like:

try:
    import rtoml as toml
except ImportError:
    import toml

...but I don't like it very much, because it tends to confuse static
analyzers like pyflakes and pylint.  Maybe mypy will deal with it better?
Not sure yet.

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 3:05 AM Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:

> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file.
>
> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.
>
> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
> only for rtoml, aso.
>
> How could I achieve this?
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Manfred
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 21:59:41 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 02:59:41 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com> <s207pp$10tl$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.12.1615145010.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <20210307222457.49bcc6bf@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <s243ut$sai$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-07, Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 15:40:41 -0000 (UTC)
> Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-03-06, Manfred Lotz <ml_news at posteo.de> wrote:
>> > Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file. 
>> >
>> > I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he
>> > wants to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.   
>> 
>> Why would the user choose one over the other?  Does the user get
>> different functions/features depending on which one they choose?
>
> I am a user of my package and I like to use rtoml which however is not
> available on another OS (due to Rust no being available there) where I
> also want to use my package. Here I can use toml which is always
> possible to install. Therefore, toml is the default so that the ordinary
> user doesn't need to care.

I still don't understand why the user needs to choose. Why not just use whichever one is installed?

Import whichever one you prefer, and if that fails, import one of the
others, if that fails, import the third one.

--
Grant




From pankaj at codeisgreat.org  Sun Mar  7 22:48:25 2021
From: pankaj at codeisgreat.org (Pankaj Jangid)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2021 09:18:25 +0530
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>
Message-ID: <m2wnui8fw6.fsf@codeisgreat.org>

"Joseph L. Casale" <jcasale at activenetwerx.com> writes:

>> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a
>> library that doesn't know the name of the application that uses
>> it. How is that done?

> Create (get) a root logger (you don't have to use it) and set the
> level, and attach a handler to it. Then get the logger your library
> uses and set the level to what you want.

So does that mean if we change the following code to get a logger
without any name then it will work? Without any further change.

>> logger = logging.getLogger('foo')
>> logger.addHandler(ch)
>> logger.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)

-- 
Regards,
Pankaj Jangid



From cs at cskk.id.au  Mon Mar  8 01:09:41 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 17:09:41 +1100
Subject: editor recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <874khs8vd7.fsf@metapensiero.it>
References: <874khs8vd7.fsf@metapensiero.it>
Message-ID: <YEW/pZIQ+fstgQRT@cskk.homeip.net>

On 03Mar2021 10:00, Lele Gaifax <lele at metapensiero.it> wrote:
>Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> writes:
>> My fingers know vim. Some others' fingers know emacs.
>
>Emacs has also an Evil[1] mode, that mimics some vi/vim features.

Whenever I've tries emulate-vi modes they tend to lack some coner case 
known to my fingers.

[... Doom Emacs recommendation - I have no opinion ...]

>-- Emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same
>way that the noonday sun does the stars. It is not just bigger and
>brighter; it simply makes everything else vanish.  ? Neal Stephenson

A novice of the temple once approached the Chief Priest with a question.

  "Master, does Emacs have the Buddha nature?" the novice asked.

  The Chief Priest had been in the temple for many years and could be relied
  upon to know these things.  He thought for several minutes before replying.

  "I don't see why not.  It's got bloody well everything else."

  With that, the Chief Priest went to lunch.  The novice suddenly achieved
enlightenment, several years later.

Commentary:

        His Master is kind,
        Answering his FAQ quickly,
        With thought and sarcasm.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From auriocus at gmx.de  Mon Mar  8 02:38:31 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:38:31 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1615146574.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com> <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>
 <mailman.15.1615146574.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s24k9o$810$1@dont-email.me>

Am 07.03.21 um 20:42 schrieb Peter J. Holzer:
> The second part is converting a parse tree into code. I am quite sure
> that it is possible to devise a formal language to specify the semantics
> of any programming language and then to use this to generate the code.
> However, I strongly suspect that such a language would be comparable in
> expressiveness and ease of use to other programming languages - or in
> other worlds it would be just another programming language. 

As far as I understand the idea, Leigh (aka Mr Flibble) thinks that he 
can create a "library" of code translators that translate the individual 
pieces of the parse tree into some intermediate code, and by specifying 
these codelets within the grammar the semantics of a language can be 
fully described.

My argument against this whole thing is that the library would be 
enormous. He seems to think that big chunks can be reused for different 
languages, but I don't believe this. A simple example:

int a = -3
unsigned int b = 5;

in C: a < b is false. This is insane but follows from the type casting 
rules in C.

in Python or any other language with sane integers, -3 < 5 will always 
be true. For large enough values you must convert them to big integers. 
CPython simply uses big integers for everything, but that obviously 
slows down the whole thing. If you want to compile that to fast machine 
code, you need to do the computation in fixed integers and check for 
overflow *after every single step*.

And there are myriads of differences. Introducing JavaScript again will 
bring myriads of differences and so on. The closest thing to such a 
project I can think of is LLVM. It still requires you to write the 
actual code generator, but features many intrinsics and libriaries that 
could be reused and therefore it is easy to add a new language. The 
approximate value of LLVM is estimated here:

           https://chriscummins.cc/2019/llvm-cost/

It's over 5000 man years of work. There is no way a single developer, 
regardless how brilliant he may be, can recreate this in his lifetime. 
Maybe focussed to a single language or two, but not "universal" in any 
sense.


	Christian

From mirkok.lists at googlemail.com  Mon Mar  8 03:29:31 2021
From: mirkok.lists at googlemail.com (Mirko)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 09:29:31 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <01fd01d71393$b9b64750$2d22d5f0$@verizon.net>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com> <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>
 <01fd01d71393$b9b64750$2d22d5f0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <6045E06B.6070607@googlemail.com>

Am 07.03.2021 um 21:52 schrieb Avi Gross via Python-list:
> The precedence example used below made a strange assumption that the
> imaginary program would not be told up-front what computer language it was
> being asked to convert from. That is not the scenario being discussed as we
> have described. In any particular language, there usually is a well-known
> precedence order such as "*" coming before "+" unless you use something like
> parentheses to make your intent clear and over-ride it.

Well, no I did not assume some kind of magical universal translator
ala Star Trek. ;-)

The OP seems to claim, that he could compile any language by just
providing a JSON schema file which describes the language. I assumed
that those who tried this before did something similar. And that is
what sounds logically impossible (or at least unfeasible) to me. How
can one write a comparatively small descriptive schema that covers
all of a language's subtleties in syntax, grammar, semantics and
behavior?

I agree that my example wasn't good, since it would be just a matter
of specifying operator precedence. But there are numerous little and
large aspects to cover for any language. In the end, one would have
to write a more or less full blown parser. Or at least a schema that
is so long, that all advantages of this approach go away.

From bluebox03 at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 03:43:27 2021
From: bluebox03 at gmail.com (tommy yama)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 17:43:27 +0900
Subject: gTTS in python
Message-ID: <CANevj7tQenjzhfv81k5OfOepffPSmnNqRCsHOuYL0Lm_dfV5ZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Anyone might be familiar with gTTS ?
https://pypi.org/project/gTTS/



Thanks.

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  8 04:16:27 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 8 Mar 2021 09:16:27 GMT
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>
 <mailman.16.1615148165.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iam8bbFlf79U1@mid.individual.net>

Joseph L. Casale wrote:
>> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library that
>> doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that done?
>
> That's not how it works, it is the opposite. You need to know the name of its
> logger, and since you imported it, you do.

[much snipping]

> Last word of advice, don't fight it by hacking up or patching (somehow?), it
> will simply not work right for any other case even slightly different than
> the one you somehow beat into submission.

I didn't waht to hack the logging system, it's just that I wasn't sure of its
design principles. I had hoped that if I set up a logger (including levels and
formatter) in my main app, the loggers in the imported modules would somwhow
automagically follow suit. Now I understand that for each imported module I
must import its logger, too, and decide how to deal with its messages.

> I hope that helps,

Much appreciated,
robert

From cl at isbd.net  Mon Mar  8 04:27:40 2021
From: cl at isbd.net (Chris Green)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 09:27:40 +0000
Subject: editor recommendations?
References: <874khs8vd7.fsf@metapensiero.it> <YEW/pZIQ+fstgQRT@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.23.1615183792.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <c97hhh-7f7q.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu>

Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> On 03Mar2021 10:00, Lele Gaifax <lele at metapensiero.it> wrote:
> >Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> writes:
> >> My fingers know vim. Some others' fingers know emacs.
> >
> >Emacs has also an Evil[1] mode, that mimics some vi/vim features.
> 
> Whenever I've tries emulate-vi modes they tend to lack some coner case 
> known to my fingers.
> 
I use [x]vile, "vi like Emacs".  It's vi in terms of what the keys do
(I can use vim and 'real' vi without issues) but it's built on an old
eMacs engine and so has quite a few eMacs-like abiliities.  For
example it has a gnuclient type mode where it runs as a server and you
can squirt files at it to be edited.

It's available in most distributions and is actively maintained and
developed still.

-- 
Chris Green
?

From tjol at tjol.eu  Mon Mar  8 04:41:10 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 10:41:10 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
In-Reply-To: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
Message-ID: <16cd4289-02fb-cf9f-ba4b-78f7de0f3468@tjol.eu>

On 06/03/2021 12:00, Manfred Lotz wrote:
> Let us say I have a package which reads a TOML file.
>
> I want to give the user of my package the choice to decide if he wants
> to use the toml, tomlkit or rtoml package.
>
> So, in case the user chose to use rtoml then there should be an import
> only for rtoml, aso.
>
> How could I achieve this?
>
I expect in this case the best thing to do is to simply try to import 
your favourite TOML module (rtoml or what have you), and if that doesn't 
work import a fallback ? accepting that there might be two TOML parser 
modules loaded in the same process in some cases.

But this dilemma is fairly common in the Qt GUI world, as there are two 
competing Python bindings for the Qt framework (and multiple 
nearly-compatible versions of both) and in that case all packages need 
to use the same one. So you could have a look at what modules depending 
on Qt do.

For example:

https://pyqtgraph.readthedocs.io/en/latest/how_to_use.html#pyqt-and-pyside

PyQtGraph checks if any supported Qt bindings are already imported and 
uses those. If not, it imports its own favourite.

The rules are fairly complex in their case (they're supporting 6 
almost-but-not-quite-compatible backends), so they have an internal 
wrapper module

https://github.com/pyqtgraph/pyqtgraph/blob/master/pyqtgraph/Qt.py

and do something like

from . import Qt

in every file.

Matplotlib does it the other way around:

https://matplotlib.org/stable/api/matplotlib_configuration_api.html#matplotlib.use

there the user imports matplotlib and then optionally calls a function 
to select a backend. Then every function within matplotlib that uses the 
backend has to defer to some wrapper (not sure where or how)


Hope that helps

Thomas


-- 
Dr. Thomas Jollans

e ? tjol at tjol.eu


From ml_news at posteo.de  Mon Mar  8 05:55:09 2021
From: ml_news at posteo.de (Manfred Lotz)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 11:55:09 +0100
Subject: Choosable dependency
References: <20210306120033.0fd573e1@arcor.com>
 <CAGGBd_p6+OVCMMKo3g2SjaONCbddWCCUi8YaVSAoNrUn1nYLug@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.20.1615178324.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <20210308115509.441bf809@arcor.com>

On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 20:38:30 -0800
Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:

> I sometimes do things like:
> 
> try:
>     import rtoml as toml
> except ImportError:
>     import toml
> 

Also a possibility. Thanks.

> ...but I don't like it very much, because it tends to confuse static
> analyzers like pyflakes and pylint.  Maybe mypy will deal with it
> better? Not sure yet.
> 

Good to know that there could be problems here.

-- 
Manfred


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Mon Mar  8 08:58:44 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 08:58:44 -0500
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
In-Reply-To: <iam8bbFlf79U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>
 <mailman.16.1615148165.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iam8bbFlf79U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <bfe3cdaf-14de-f84e-1cac-ddea019593d7@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/8/21 4:16 AM, Robert Latest via Python-list wrote:
> Joseph L. Casale wrote:
>>> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library that
>>> doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that done?
>> That's not how it works, it is the opposite. You need to know the name of its
>> logger, and since you imported it, you do.
> [much snipping]
>
>> Last word of advice, don't fight it by hacking up or patching (somehow?), it
>> will simply not work right for any other case even slightly different than
>> the one you somehow beat into submission.
> I didn't waht to hack the logging system, it's just that I wasn't sure of its
> design principles. I had hoped that if I set up a logger (including levels and
> formatter) in my main app, the loggers in the imported modules would somwhow
> automagically follow suit. Now I understand that for each imported module I
> must import its logger, too, and decide how to deal with its messages.
>
>
Each instance of the logger inherents from a 'parent' logger, except for
the top level logger which has the name None (as in the singleton of
NoneType), and unless told otherwise will inherit it properties from its
parent.

Thus, if you get the root logger with logging.getLogger() you can set
properties there, and unless a child logger has specifical been told not
to inherit or has been specifically given a different value.

General convention is that modules will use their name as the name of
their logger, as that is generally unique.

-- 
Richard Damon


From rsstinnett at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 10:12:50 2021
From: rsstinnett at gmail.com (Russell)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 15:12:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: editor recommendations?
References: <874khs8vd7.fsf@metapensiero.it> <YEW/pZIQ+fstgQRT@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.23.1615183792.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s25eti$1po2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
 
>>-- Emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same
>>way that the noonday sun does the stars. It is not just bigger and
>>brighter; it simply makes everything else vanish.  ??? Neal Stephenson

Neal Stephenson's book Cryptonomicon was the reason I became borderline
obsesseed with Emacs 20 years ago. I've only come to my senses in about
the last 5 years when I started using vim. lol!

Admittedly, Normal Mode takes some getting used to. I remember a quote
from years ago that went something like, "Vi has two modes, edit and
beep."

> 
> A novice of the temple once approached the Chief Priest with a question.
> 
>   "Master, does Emacs have the Buddha nature?" the novice asked.
> 
>   The Chief Priest had been in the temple for many years and could be relied
>   upon to know these things.  He thought for several minutes before replying.
> 
>   "I don't see why not.  It's got bloody well everything else."
> 
>   With that, the Chief Priest went to lunch.  The novice suddenly achieved
> enlightenment, several years later.
> 
> Commentary:
> 
>         His Master is kind,
>         Answering his FAQ quickly,
>         With thought and sarcasm.
> 
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

This is awesome!

-- 
rust
0x68caecc97f6a90122e51c0692c88d9cb6b58a3dc

From darcy at VybeNetworks.com  Mon Mar  8 06:04:10 2021
From: darcy at VybeNetworks.com (D'Arcy Cain)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 06:04:10 -0500
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
In-Reply-To: <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>

On 2021-03-06 4:24 p.m., Terry Reedy wrote:
> Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially 
> with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.? A troll, among other 
> things, is that method or the lure used.

You are confusing "troll" with "trawl"

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain
Vybe Networks Inc.
A unit of Excelsior Solutions Corporation - Propelling Business Forward
http://www.VybeNetworks.com/
IM:darcy at VybeNetworks.com VoIP: sip:darcy at VybeNetworks.com

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 16:35:52 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 08:35:52 +1100
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
In-Reply-To: <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqQT-aNZgkqdR1=duRE02SjMmz-o1et74gv+A84Cn419Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 8:31 AM D'Arcy Cain <darcy at vybenetworks.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-06 4:24 p.m., Terry Reedy wrote:
> > Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially
> > with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.  A troll, among other
> > things, is that method or the lure used.
>
> You are confusing "troll" with "trawl"
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_(fishing)

ChrisA

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 16:42:45 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 21:42:45 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>
Message-ID: <s265ol$a0$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-08, D'Arcy Cain <darcy at VybeNetworks.com> wrote:
> On 2021-03-06 4:24 p.m., Terry Reedy wrote:
>> Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially 
>> with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.? A troll, among other 
>> things, is that method or the lure used.
>
> You are confusing "troll" with "trawl"

No, he's not.

Trolling is dragging a lure through the water with a boat (usually a
smallish one).

  https://www.minnkotamotors.com/learn/buying-guide/trolling-motors

Trawling is dragging a net through the water with a boat (usually a
rather large one).

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_trawler


From pjfarley3 at earthlink.net  Mon Mar  8 20:05:48 2021
From: pjfarley3 at earthlink.net (pjfarley3 at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2021 20:05:48 -0500
Subject: python curses constant names for mouse wheel movements?
In-Reply-To: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>
References: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002201d71480$5790dd40$06b297c0$@earthlink.net>

I am replying to my own message due to the digest not appearing in my inbox
yet today.  I will add Alan Gould's responses and my reply to him manually.

alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> > Where can I find any documentation of the correct curses constant
name(s) to
> > use for detecting a "wheel down" action?  Or do I just have to manually
> > define my own BUTTON5 constant name for the wheel-down event?
>
> I suspect you need to look in the ncurses documentation or
> even the C code. And that is no guarantee that the Python
> curses module will expose any values you do find other
> than as numeric codes.
>
> I would have expected the mouse wheel down/click to appear as
> a BUTTON2 event to be honest. I didn't even realize there was
> a BUTTON4 event defined let alone BUTTON5.
>
> Incidentally, when you talk about wheel up/down are you
> talking about wheel rotation events rather than actual
> button down/up events? In that case 4 and 5 might make sense.
>
> If you find the answer please post back, I'm very interested
> since I'm in the middle of writing a book on the Python curses
> module and was unaware of this behaviour. A whole new area
> to explore.... I'm also interested in any documentation you
> have already found on it - where did you get this understanding?

Alan,

Yes, when I talk about wheel up/down I do mean wheel rotation events, not
wheel-button-down or up click events.  The latter are correctly reported by
the PDCurses implementation used by windows-curses V2.2.0 as BUTTON2 events.

Christoph Gohlke gave me this link to the current-version PDCurses
implementation definitions for the mouse state constants, which I found very
helpful:

https://github.com/wmcbrine/PDCurses/blob/master/curses.h#L199

The PDCurses names defined there are exactly what I needed to see, even if
the current cpython and windows-curses implementations do not support them
quite yet.  I can safely define them myself and adjust my code as later
releases of cpython and windows-curses are updated to support them natively.

This link to an ncurses man page concerning mouse events is also
instructive:

https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/man/curs_mouse.3x.html

On that page, he says:

       The  ALL_MOUSE_EVENTS  class  does  not  include
REPORT_MOUSE_POSITION.
       They are distinct.  For example, in xterm,  wheel/scrolling  mice
send
       position  reports  as  a  sequence of presses of buttons 4 or 5
without
       matching button-releases.

With python 3.8.7 and windows-curses 2.2.0 I am seeing from my logging that
the mouse wheel rotation up/down events are indeed reported by PDCurses (and
presumably by ncurses on a *ix system) as BUTTON4_PRESSED and
BUTTON5_PRESSED respectively, based on the constant values listed in the
PDCurses link above.

HTH

Peter
--


From Bischoop at vimart.net  Mon Mar  8 21:08:59 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 02:08:59 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Button placement
Message-ID: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>


I try for a while place the top button in a a middle of column=0 with
span to column2 below so the button being centered to those, tried with
canvas as well but with no success. Is someone with Tkinter experience
able to advice what I could do?

from tkinter import *
from tkinter import ttk

root = Tk()

root.title('Password Generator')
root.config(padx=10, pady=10)

backg = '#06090f'

canvas = Canvas(root, width=80, height=40).grid(column=0, row=0, columnspan=2,sticky=E)
bgs = Button(canvas, text="Password Manager & Generator", background='#0f2a52', foreground="orange",
             font=("Times New Roman", 15, 'bold')).grid(column=0, row=0, pady=10, columnspan=2)
long_t = Label(text='Password Length:')
long_t.grid(column=0, row=1)
choice_n = IntVar()
choice = ttk.Combobox(width=10)
w = [x for x in range(8, 16)]
choice['values'] = w
choice.grid(row=1, column=1)
choice.current()
choice.bind("<<ComboboxSelected>>")
password_text = Label(text='Password: ')
password_text.grid(row=2, column=0)
password_entry = Entry(width=20)
password_entry.grid(row=2, column=1)
gen = Button(text='Generate Password')
gen.grid(row=1, column=2, sticky=W)

From __peter__ at web.de  Tue Mar  9 03:00:23 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 09:00:23 +0100
Subject: Button placement
In-Reply-To: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <95405b7e-029d-697a-0828-64a05430d44e@web.de>

On 09/03/2021 03:08, Bischoop wrote:
> 
> I try for a while place the top button in a a middle of column=0 with
> span to column2 below so the button being centered to those, 

I'm not sure what you mean, do you perhaps need columnspan=3?

> tried with
> canvas as well but with no success. Is someone with Tkinter experience
> able to advice what I could do?
> 
> from tkinter import *
> from tkinter import ttk
> 
> root = Tk()
> 
> root.title('Password Generator')
> root.config(padx=10, pady=10)
> 
> backg = '#06090f'

# no Canvas
bgs = Button(
     root,
     text="Password Manager & Generator",
     background='#0f2a52', foreground="orange",
     font=("Times New Roman", 15, 'bold')
)
bgs.grid(column=0, row=0, pady=10, columnspan=3)

> long_t = Label(text='Password Length:')
> long_t.grid(column=0, row=1)
> choice_n = IntVar()
> choice = ttk.Combobox(width=10)
> w = [x for x in range(8, 16)]
> choice['values'] = w
> choice.grid(row=1, column=1)
> choice.current()
> choice.bind("<<ComboboxSelected>>")
> password_text = Label(text='Password: ')
> password_text.grid(row=2, column=0)
> password_entry = Entry(width=20)
> password_entry.grid(row=2, column=1)
> gen = Button(text='Generate Password')
> gen.grid(row=1, column=2, sticky=W)
> 



From larry.martell at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 08:00:16 2021
From: larry.martell at gmail.com (Larry Martell)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 05:00:16 -0800
Subject: Best practices regarding PYTHONPATH
Message-ID: <CACwCsY49N2A+i_aaNuSUz6CSECpD+ymxvfKAuUKPEcLDDp23sg@mail.gmail.com>

Which is considered better? Having a long import path or setting PYTHONPATH?

For example, in a project where 50% of the imports come from the same top
level directory is it better to add that dir to the path or reference it in
the import statements?

From hjp-python at hjp.at  Tue Mar  9 09:52:15 2021
From: hjp-python at hjp.at (Peter J. Holzer)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:52:15 +0100
Subject: neonumeric - C++ arbitrary precision arithmetic library
In-Reply-To: <6045E06B.6070607@googlemail.com>
References: <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <1QQ0I.503272$B9r4.27147@fx12.ams4> <87sg58c6ws.fsf@bsb.me.uk>
 <60440506.2020004@googlemail.com> <20210307194253.GA11051@hjp.at>
 <01fd01d71393$b9b64750$2d22d5f0$@verizon.net>
 <6045E06B.6070607@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <20210309145215.GA26932@hjp.at>

On 2021-03-08 09:29:31 +0100, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> Am 07.03.2021 um 21:52 schrieb Avi Gross via Python-list:
> > The precedence example used below made a strange assumption that the
> > imaginary program would not be told up-front what computer language it was
> > being asked to convert from. That is not the scenario being discussed as we
> > have described. In any particular language, there usually is a well-known
> > precedence order such as "*" coming before "+" unless you use something like
> > parentheses to make your intent clear and over-ride it.
> 
> Well, no I did not assume some kind of magical universal translator
> ala Star Trek. ;-)
> 
> The OP seems to claim, that he could compile any language by just
> providing a JSON schema file which describes the language.

Right. Using JSON is probably not the best choice (20 years ago
everybody was using XML for everything, now everybody uses JSON for
everything), but that's merely a question of readability. The
functionality doesn't depend on the (meta-)syntax.

> I assumed that those who tried this before did something similar. And
> that is what sounds logically impossible (or at least unfeasible) to
> me. How can one write a comparatively small descriptive schema that
> covers all of a language's subtleties in syntax, grammar, semantics
> and behavior?

How does one design a programming language which covers all the
subtleties in algorithms?

I think these are quite similar problems. Except that it has already
been proven that a very primitive programming language (the Turing
machine) is sufficient to describe all algorithms, and I'm not sure that
a similar prove exists for formal languages. Still, I think that the
latter can be reduced to the former (I compiler is essentially such a
description, so you could just use any programming language).

(Such formal languages exist, for example, for formal verification of
programs. I don't think any of these is truely universal, but I suspect
that the restrictions are more caused by having to be "provable" in the
mathematical sense and less with the variety in possible semantics.)

Where the OP is wrong, IMHO, is the "comparatively small" aspect. A
formal description of C will not fit into a few lines. The C standard is
670 pages, about 150 pages of which are the language proper (the rest is
library, concepts, etc.) All that information has to be expressed in
that formal language. Depending on the expressiveness of the language
such a formal description might be quite a bit shorter (or much longer)
than English prose, but it won't be dramatically shorter. And C is a
relatively small language ...

> I agree that my example wasn't good, since it would be just a matter
> of specifying operator precedence. But there are numerous little and
> large aspects to cover for any language. In the end, one would have
> to write a more or less full blown parser.

Yes, but writing a parser is (comparatively) easy. Parser generators
have existed for decades. It's the semantics that are difficult.

I'm not saying that you are wrong. I am saying that you haven't even
looked at the real problems yet.

        hp

-- 
   _  | Peter J. Holzer    | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) |                    |
| |   | hjp at hjp.at         |    -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/   | http://www.hjp.at/ |       challenge!"
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From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 15:03:54 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:03:54 -0500
Subject: "unexpected argument"
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>

Error 1:
Space Invaders.py:90: SyntaxWarning: "is" with a literal. Did you mean "=="?
  if bullet_state is "fire":

Error 2:
line 66, in <module>
    if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
AttributeError: 'Event' object has no attribute 'key'

Code:
import pygame
import random
# Space Invaders!

background = pygame.image.load('space_invader_background.png')
# Title and Icon
pygame.display.set_caption ("Space Invaders")
icon = pygame.image.load ('space-invaders.png')
pygame.display.set_icon (icon)
# Player
player_Image = pygame.image.load ('player.png')
player_X = 370
player_Y = 480
player_X_change = 0

# Enemy
enemy_Image = pygame.image.load ('invader_enemy.png.')
enemy_X = random.randint(0, 800)
enemy_Y = random.randint(50, 150)
enemy_X_change = 5
enemy_Y_change = 35

# Bullet
bullet_Image = pygame.image.load ('bullet.png')
bullet_X = 0
bullet_Y = 480
bullet_X_change = 0
bullet_Y_change = 10
bullet_state = "ready"

def player(x, y):
    screen.blit (player_Image, (x, y))


def enemy(x, y):
    screen.blit (enemy_Image, (x, y))


def fire_bullet():
    global bullet_state
    bullet_state = "fire"
    screen.blit(bullet_Image, (x + 16, y + 10))

# Game Loop


pygame.init()
screen = pygame.display.set_mode ((800, 600))
running = True
while running:

    screen.fill ((0, 0, 0))
    screen.blit(background, (0, 0))
    for event in pygame.event.get ():
        if event.type == pygame.QUIT:
            running = False

        # Check whether keystroke is being pressed

        if event.type == pygame.KEYDOWN:
            if event.key == pygame.K_LEFT:
                player_X_change = -6
            if event.key == pygame.K_RIGHT:
                player_X_change = 6

        if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
            fire_bullet(player_X, bullet_Y)

        if event.type == pygame.KEYUP:
            if event.key == pygame.K_LEFT or event.key == pygame.K_RIGHT:
                player_X_change = 0
    #Player Movement and Boundaries
    player_X += player_X_change

    if player_X <= 0:
        player_X = 0
    elif player_X >= 736:
        player_X = 736
    #Enemy Movement and Boundaries
    enemy_X += enemy_X_change

    if enemy_X <= 0:
        enemy_X_change = 4
        enemy_Y += enemy_Y_change
    elif enemy_X >= 736:
        enemy_X_change = -4
        enemy_Y += enemy_Y_change

    # Bullet Movement
    if bullet_state == "fire":
        fire_bullet(player_X, bullet_Y)
        bullet_Y -= bullet_Y_change

    player(player_X, player_Y)
    enemy(enemy_X, enemy_Y)
    pygame.display.update()

Why is it saying unexpected argument?
Youtube Tutorial I'm Following:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w

From pkpearson at nowhere.invalid  Tue Mar  9 15:11:48 2021
From: pkpearson at nowhere.invalid (Peter Pearson)
Date: 9 Mar 2021 20:11:48 GMT
Subject: "unexpected argument"
References: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.36.1615320249.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iaq344Fegp0U1@mid.individual.net>

On Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:03:54 -0500, Quentin Bock <qberz2005 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Error 1:
> Space Invaders.py:90: SyntaxWarning: "is" with a literal. Did you mean "=="?
>   if bullet_state is "fire":
>
> Error 2:
> line 66, in <module>
>     if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
> AttributeError: 'Event' object has no attribute 'key'
>
> Code:
> import pygame
> import random
[snip]
>
> Why is it saying unexpected argument?
> Youtube Tutorial I'm Following:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w

Who is saying "unexpected argument"?  I see two error messages,
neither of which is "unexpected argument".  

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->runbox, invalid->com.

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Mar  9 15:50:09 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 20:50:09 +0000
Subject: "unexpected argument"
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb32f299-edc7-e844-759d-0ad78df73372@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-09 20:03, Quentin Bock wrote:
> Error 1:
> Space Invaders.py:90: SyntaxWarning: "is" with a literal. Did you mean "=="?
>    if bullet_state is "fire":
> 
> Error 2:
> line 66, in <module>
>      if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
> AttributeError: 'Event' object has no attribute 'key'
> 
> Code:
> import pygame
> import random
> # Space Invaders!
> 
[snip]

I see 2 problems:

1. You define "fire_bullet" to take 0 arguments, but then try to call it 
with 2 arguments.

2. What attributes an event has depends on the type of event. For 
example, KEYDOWN events have a "key" attribute, but most other types of 
event don't. Your code tries to look at the "key" attribute even when 
it's not a KEYDOWN event because of the amount of indentation.

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Mar  9 02:20:40 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 02:20:40 -0500
Subject: Button placement
In-Reply-To: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <s277k8$n04$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/8/2021 9:08 PM, Bischoop wrote:
> 
> I try for a while place the top button in a a middle of column=0 with
> span to column2 below so the button being centered to those, tried with
> canvas as well but with no success. Is someone with Tkinter experience
> able to advice what I could do?

Say more clearly what you want/expect and what you are getting and why 
you are unhappy.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar  9 05:11:37 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 10:11:37 +0000
Subject: python curses constant names for mouse wheel movements?
In-Reply-To: <002201d71480$5790dd40$06b297c0$@earthlink.net>
References: <000001d71321$d5aaad60$81000820$@earthlink.net>
 <002201d71480$5790dd40$06b297c0$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <s27hkq$dt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 09/03/2021 01:05, pjfarley3 at earthlink.net wrote:
> I am replying to my own message due to the digest not appearing in my inbox
> yet today.  I will add Alan Gould's responses and my reply to him manually.

> Yes, when I talk about wheel up/down I do mean wheel rotation events, not
> wheel-button-down or up click events.  The latter are correctly reported by
> the PDCurses implementation used by windows-curses V2.2.0 as BUTTON2 events.
> 
> Christoph Gohlke gave me this link to the current-version PDCurses
> implementation definitions for the mouse state constants, which I found very
> helpful:
> 
> https://github.com/wmcbrine/PDCurses/blob/master/curses.h#L199
> 
> The PDCurses names defined there are exactly what I needed to see, even if
> the current cpython and windows-curses implementations do not support them
> quite yet.  I can safely define them myself and adjust my code as later
> releases of cpython and windows-curses are updated to support them natively.

Thanks, I've done some tests and I see the events as

WHEEL FORWARD - 0x10000  or curses.BUTTON4_PRESSED
WHEEL BACK    - 0x200000   but not defined in the curses module

That's using ncurses on Linux.
Do you get the same mask value under PDcurses on Windows?

I suspect in the real world I'd probably create my own
definitions as WHEEL_FORWARD and WHEEL_BACKWARD just for
readability.

> This link to an ncurses man page concerning mouse events is also
> instructive:
> 
> https://invisible-island.net/ncurses/man/curs_mouse.3x.html

Thanks for that, I hadn't spotted that there was a mouse man
page before...

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From Bischoop at vimart.net  Tue Mar  9 06:24:35 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 11:24:35 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Button placement
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <95405b7e-029d-697a-0828-64a05430d44e@web.de>
 <mailman.33.1615276830.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns4emnj.3o7.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-03-09, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
> On 09/03/2021 03:08, Bischoop wrote:
>> 
>> I try for a while place the top button in a a middle of column=0 with
>> span to column2 below so the button being centered to those, 
>
> I'm not sure what you mean, do you perhaps need columnspan=3?
>
>

You were sure :-) 
columnspan=3 helped, I didn't know that I can apply it to 3 when not
having column=3, was trying just with columnspan=2 but as you know it
didn't do the job. I was swearing when fighting with it with padding lol. 

--
Thanks
>

From sb.monzur at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 16:07:14 2021
From: sb.monzur at gmail.com (S Monzur)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 03:07:14 +0600
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
Message-ID: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>

Dear List,

Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html tags,
punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup (Python v
3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It returns a
list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a loop in
order to process all the items in the text file.

In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data from one
news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing>),
however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing data from
multiple articles, link to listfile.text
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>
).


Any help would be greatly appreciated!

P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in English.


#The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not sure
how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains raw data
from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
#Separating body text from other data articleStart = rawData.find("<div
class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody) print("*******")
#First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in pageContents:
if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char return text
#Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication date
TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
articleData.find("<div
class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString = articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString) articleDate
= stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate) #Cleaning
the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate =
articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save all
this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body text
PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean, "Text":
articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1. Splitting
paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing punctuation
and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A. Remove
punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList: for
mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '') listNoPunct.append(word)
print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords = stopwords()
print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if word in
banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word) print(cleanList)

From dib_victor at outlook.com  Tue Mar  9 15:16:50 2021
From: dib_victor at outlook.com (Victor Dib)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 20:16:50 +0000
Subject: Found a problem
Message-ID: <DM6PR16MB287334CC666E735AFB28519BF9929@DM6PR16MB2873.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

Ol?, comunidade do Python!

Meu nome ? Victor Dib, e sou um estudante brasileiro de programa??o.

J? entrei em contato com voc?s hoje, e voc?s solicitaram que eu me inscrevesse na lista de e-mails de voc?s primeiro. Bom, isso j? foi feito, ent?o espero que agora voc?s possam dar aten??o ao meu caso.

J? sou um usu?rio de n?vel iniciante pra m?dio da linguagem Python. Mas recentemente tive um problema no uso da linguagem.
Ao construir uma fun??o que encontra n?meros perfeitos, percebi que a linguagem n?o estava realizando corretamente a inser??o de novos dados inteiros ? uma lista. Encaminharei imagens para demonstrar o meu problema.

Tive problemas com a vers?o 3.9.2 da linguagem. Mas tamb?m usei a vers?o 3.8.7 (por ser marcada como est?vel no site da linguagem), e igualmente tive problemas.

Acredito que n?o haja problemas em minha l?gica, e por isso gostaria que voc?s desse m uma olhada para ter certeza de que n?o ? um problema na linguagem.

Odiaria que uma linguagem t?o incr?vel como o Python n?o funcionasse como deveria. Por isso, por favor, verifiquem meu caso!

Obrigado!

O programa que escrevi para encontrar n?meros perfeitos:



def num_perf_inf(n):
    divisors = []
    perfects = []
    limit = n - 1
    for i in range(1, limit):
        dividend = i + 1
        for j in range(i):
            divisor = j + 1
            if dividend % divisor == 0:
                divisors.append(divisor)
        print(f'Divisors of {i + 1}: {divisors}')

        divisors.pop()
        if sum(divisors) == dividend:
            perfects.append(i)
        divisors.clear()
    print(perfects)


num_perf_inf(28)

E o resultado da execu??o desse c?digo, em Python 3.9.2 e em Python 3.8.7 (como j? mencionado, testei as duas vers?es da linguagem:


Divisors of 2: [1]
Divisors of 3: [1]
Divisors of 4: [1, 2]
Divisors of 5: [1]
Divisors of 6: [1, 2, 3]
Divisors of 7: [1]
Divisors of 8: [1, 2, 4]
Divisors of 9: [1, 3]
Divisors of 10: [1, 2, 5]
Divisors of 11: [1]
Divisors of 12: [1, 2, 3, 4, 6]
Divisors of 13: [1]
Divisors of 14: [1, 2, 7]
Divisors of 15: [1, 3, 5]
Divisors of 16: [1, 2, 4, 8]
Divisors of 17: [1]
Divisors of 18: [1, 2, 3, 6, 9]
Divisors of 19: [1]
Divisors of 20: [1, 2, 4, 5, 10]
Divisors of 21: [1, 3, 7]
Divisors of 22: [1, 2, 11]
Divisors of 23: [1]
Divisors of 24: [1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12]
Divisors of 25: [1, 5]
Divisors of 26: [1, 2, 13]
Divisors of 27: [1, 3, 9]
[23]



From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Mar  9 16:52:59 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 08:52:59 +1100
Subject: Best practices regarding PYTHONPATH
In-Reply-To: <CACwCsY49N2A+i_aaNuSUz6CSECpD+ymxvfKAuUKPEcLDDp23sg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwCsY49N2A+i_aaNuSUz6CSECpD+ymxvfKAuUKPEcLDDp23sg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YEfuO5nnSYEpdmjh@cskk.homeip.net>

On 09Mar2021 05:00, Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> wrote:
>Which is considered better? Having a long import path or setting PYTHONPATH?
>
>For example, in a project where 50% of the imports come from the same top
>level directory is it better to add that dir to the path or reference it in
>the import statements?

All the below is personal opinion.

I'd be leaving the $PYTHONPATH alone - I tweak it to access the required 
libraries, but not to change their dotted module paths.

For example, I include ~/lib/python in my personal environment to access 
my personal modules, but I don't include 
~/lib/python/cs/app/someapp/subpackage in order to shorten 
"cs.app.someapp.subpackage.foo" to just "foo".

This is largely to avoid accidental shadowing of other modules. For 
example, supposing "foo" above were the subpath "os.path". Yes, 
contrived, but that's the flavour of problem I'm avoiding.

I think I'd be ok with it provided I didn't go too far down. Eg, if all 
my "someapp"s were distinctively named I could be persuaded to use 
~/lib/python/cs/app in the $PYTHONPATH, allowing 
"someapp.subpackage.foo". But I'd still be reluctant.

If the project modules are tightly bound relative imports can get you a 
fair way. Certainly within a package I do a lot of:

    from .fixtures import these_things

to grab from the adjacent "fixtures.py" file instead of:

    from project.submodule.fixtures import these_things

And I'm usually happy to go up an additional level:

    from ..package2.fixtures import those_things

Somewhere around 3 dots I start to worry about presuming too much, but 
that is an arbitrary decision based on the discipline (or lack of it) in 
the project naming.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From dciprus at cisco.com  Tue Mar  9 17:00:27 2021
From: dciprus at cisco.com (Dan Ciprus (dciprus))
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 22:00:27 +0000
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>

If you could utilized pastebin or similar site to show your code, it would help 
tremendously since it's an unindented mess now and can not be read easily.

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 03:07:14AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
>Dear List,
>
>Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html tags,
>punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup (Python v
>3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It returns a
>list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a loop in
>order to process all the items in the text file.
>
>In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data from one
>news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
><https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing>),
>however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing data from
>multiple articles, link to listfile.text
><https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>
>).
>
>
>Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
>P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in English.
>
>
>#The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not sure
>how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains raw data
>from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
>encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
>#Separating body text from other data articleStart = rawData.find("<div
>class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
>rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
>print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody) print("*******")
>#First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
>stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in pageContents:
>if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
>insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char return text
>#Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
>print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication date
>TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
>articleData.find("<div
>class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
>dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
>storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
>articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString = articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
>##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString) articleDate
>= stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate) #Cleaning
>the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate =
>articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
>articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save all
>this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body text
>PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean, "Text":
>articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1. Splitting
>paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
>articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing punctuation
>and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A. Remove
>punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList: for
>mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '') listNoPunct.append(word)
>print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords = stopwords()
>print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if word in
>banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word) print(cleanList)
>-- 
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 

Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.

dciprus at cisco.com

tel: +1 703 484 0205
mob: +1 540 223 7098

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From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Tue Mar  9 17:08:23 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:08:23 -0500
Subject: Button placement
In-Reply-To: <slrns4emnj.3o7.Bischoop@vimart.net>
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <95405b7e-029d-697a-0828-64a05430d44e@web.de>
 <mailman.33.1615276830.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns4emnj.3o7.Bischoop@vimart.net>
Message-ID: <d236650c-8add-9947-d8ed-1e8109cc5731@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/9/21 6:24 AM, Bischoop wrote:
> On 2021-03-09, Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:
>> On 09/03/2021 03:08, Bischoop wrote:
>>> I try for a while place the top button in a a middle of column=0 with
>>> span to column2 below so the button being centered to those, 
>> I'm not sure what you mean, do you perhaps need columnspan=3?
>>
>>
> You were sure :-) 
> columnspan=3 helped, I didn't know that I can apply it to 3 when not
> having column=3, was trying just with columnspan=2 but as you know it
> didn't do the job. I was swearing when fighting with it with padding lol. 
>
> --
> Thanks

One thing to remember is that span is sort of like range, range(3) is
[0, 1, 2]

-- 
Richard Damon


From sb.monzur at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 17:22:19 2021
From: sb.monzur at gmail.com (S Monzur)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 04:22:19 +0600
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
Message-ID: <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you and apologies! I did not realize how jumbled it was at the
receiver's end.

The code is now at this site :  https://pastebin.com/wSi2xzBh

I'm basically trying to do a few things with my code-

   1.

   Extract 3 strings from the text- title, date and main text
   2.

   Remove all tags afterwards
   3.

   Save in a dictionary, with three keys- title, date and bodytext.
   4.

   Remove punctuation and stopwords (I've used a user generated function
   for that).

I've been able to do all of these steps for the file ListFileReduced
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing>,
as shown in the code (although it's clunky).

But, I would like to be able to do it for the other text file: ListFile
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>
which has more articles. I used BeautifulSoup to scrape the data from the
website, and then generated a list that I saved as a text file.


Best,

Monzur

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 4:00 AM Dan Ciprus (dciprus) <dciprus at cisco.com>
wrote:

> If you could utilized pastebin or similar site to show your code, it would
> help
> tremendously since it's an unindented mess now and can not be read easily.
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 03:07:14AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
> >Dear List,
> >
> >Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html tags,
> >punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup (Python v
> >3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It returns a
> >list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a loop in
> >order to process all the items in the text file.
> >
> >In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data from
> one
> >news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
> ><
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
> >),
> >however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing data
> from
> >multiple articles, link to listfile.text
> ><
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >
> >).
> >
> >
> >Any help would be greatly appreciated!
> >
> >P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in English.
> >
> >
> >#The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not sure
> >how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains raw
> data
> >from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
> >encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
> >#Separating body text from other data articleStart = rawData.find("<div
> >class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
> >rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
> >print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody) print("*******")
> >#First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
> >stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in pageContents:
> >if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
> >insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char return text
> >#Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
> >print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication date
> >TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
> >articleData.find("<div
> >class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
> >dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
> >storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
> >articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString =
> articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
> >##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString) articleDate
> >= stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate) #Cleaning
> >the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate =
> >articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
> >articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save all
> >this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body text
> >PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean, "Text":
> >articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1. Splitting
> >paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
> >articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing punctuation
> >and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A. Remove
> >punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList: for
> >mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '') listNoPunct.append(word)
> >print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords = stopwords()
> >print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if word in
> >banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word) print(cleanList)
> >--
> >https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
> --
>
> Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
> CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.
>
> dciprus at cisco.com
>
> tel: +1 703 484 0205
> mob: +1 540 223 7098
>
>

From dciprus at cisco.com  Tue Mar  9 17:32:08 2021
From: dciprus at cisco.com (Dan Ciprus (dciprus))
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 22:32:08 +0000
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>

No problem, list just converts everything into plain/txt which is GREAT ! :-)

So without digging deeply into what you need to do: I am assuming that your 
input contains html tags. Why don't you utilize lib like: 
https://pypi.org/project/beautifulsoup4/ instead of doing harakiri with parsing 
data without using regex ? Just a hint ..

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 04:22:19AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
>   Thank you and apologies! I did not realize how jumbled it was at the
>   receiver's end.?
>   The code is now at this site :??[1]https://pastebin.com/wSi2xzBh?
>   I'm basically trying to do a few things with my code-
>
>   ?1.?Extract 3 strings from the text- title, date and main text
>
>   ?2.?Remove all tags afterwards
>
>   ?3.?Save in a dictionary, with three keys- title, date and bodytext.
>
>   ?4.?Remove punctuation and stopwords (I've used a user generated function
>       for that).
>
>   I've been able to do all of these steps for the file [2]ListFileReduced,
>   as shown in the code (although it's clunky).
>
>   But, I would like to be able to do it for the other text file: [3]ListFile
>   which has more articles.?I used BeautifulSoup to scrape the data from the
>   website, and then generated a list that I saved as a text file.?
>
>   Best,
>   Monzur
>   On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 4:00 AM Dan Ciprus (dciprus)
>   <[4]dciprus at cisco.com> wrote:
>
>     If you could utilized pastebin or similar site to show your code, it
>     would help
>     tremendously since it's an unindented mess now and can not be read
>     easily.
>
>     On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 03:07:14AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
>     >Dear List,
>     >
>     >Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html tags,
>     >punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup
>     (Python v
>     >3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It
>     returns a
>     >list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a loop
>     in
>     >order to process all the items in the text file.
>     >
>     >In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data from
>     one
>     >news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
>     ><[5]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing>),
>     >however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing data
>     from
>     >multiple articles, link to listfile.text
>     ><[6]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>
>     >).
>     >
>     >
>     >Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>     >
>     >P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in
>     English.
>     >
>     >
>     >#The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not
>     sure
>     >how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains raw
>     data
>     >from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
>     >encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
>     >#Separating body text from other data articleStart = rawData.find("<div
>     >class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
>     >rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
>     >print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody) print("*******")
>     >#First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
>     >stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in
>     pageContents:
>     >if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
>     >insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char return
>     text
>     >#Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
>     >print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication date
>     >TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
>     >articleData.find("<div
>     >class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
>     >dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
>     >storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
>     >articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString =
>     articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
>     >##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString)
>     articleDate
>     >= stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate)
>     #Cleaning
>     >the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate =
>     >articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
>     >articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save
>     all
>     >this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body text
>     >PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean,
>     "Text":
>     >articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1. Splitting
>     >paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
>     >articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing
>     punctuation
>     >and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A.
>     Remove
>     >punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList: for
>     >mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '')
>     listNoPunct.append(word)
>     >print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords = stopwords()
>     >print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if word in
>     >banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word) print(cleanList)
>     >--
>     >[7]https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>     --
>
>     Daniel Ciprus? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .:|:.:|:.
>     CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY? ?Cisco Systems Inc.
>
>     [8]dciprus at cisco.com
>
>     tel: +1 703 484 0205
>     mob: +1 540 223 7098
>
>References
>
>   Visible links
>   1. https://pastebin.com/wSi2xzBh
>   2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
>   3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
>   4. mailto:dciprus at cisco.com
>   5. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
>   6. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
>   7. https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>   8. mailto:dciprus at cisco.com

-- 

Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.

dciprus at cisco.com

tel: +1 703 484 0205
mob: +1 540 223 7098

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From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 17:42:11 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 23:42:11 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
Message-ID: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>

As title. Currently I ended up using this trick in my setup.py:


if len(argv) > 1 and argv[1] == "c":
    sys.argv = [sys.argv[0]] + sys.argv[2:]
    setuptools.setup(ext_modules = ext_modules, **common_setup_args)
else:
    setuptools.setup(**common_setup_args)


So if I pass "c" as the first argument of ./setup.py , the c extension
is builded, otherwise the py version is packaged.

Is there not a better way to do this?

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Tue Mar  9 17:50:28 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 22:50:28 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Button placement
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <95405b7e-029d-697a-0828-64a05430d44e@web.de>
 <mailman.33.1615276830.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns4emnj.3o7.Bischoop@vimart.net>
 <d236650c-8add-9947-d8ed-1e8109cc5731@Damon-Family.org>
 <mailman.44.1615327708.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns4futk.2i7.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-03-09, Richard Damon <Richard at Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>
> One thing to remember is that span is sort of like range, range(3) is
> [0, 1, 2]
>

Right, ends on 2. Thanks again, that ended mine frustration lol.


--
Thanks

From Bischoop at vimart.net  Tue Mar  9 17:55:40 2021
From: Bischoop at vimart.net (Bischoop)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 22:55:40 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Button placement
References: <slrns4dm5r.59o.Bischoop@vimart.net> <s277k8$n04$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.38.1615325130.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns4fv7c.2i7.Bischoop@vimart.net>

On 2021-03-09, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>
> Say more clearly what you want/expect and what you are getting and why 
> you are unhappy.
>

It solved Terry, I wanted center the button on top, had only 3 columns
(0,1,2) and was unaware that I could use "columnspan=3" as it ends on 2,
I was using columnspan=2 :-)

Thanks, anyway.

--
Thanks

From jayay at ualberta.ca  Tue Mar  9 17:32:21 2021
From: jayay at ualberta.ca (Jaya Yogasundaram)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 15:32:21 -0700
Subject: Getting Modify Setup message
Message-ID: <CAEtr2jYFo=cCpMTYHpJtG0gjdL1gbJAdA9QTQmYGWCDFSe+AnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello

I just installed Python 3.9.2 on my computer a week ago . But I am getting
the Modify Setup window pops up many times. How can I fix it. Let me know
please.
thanks
Jaya


*Please note that I am working remotely until further notice.*

Jaya Yogasundaram, P.Eng.

IWMS Support & Development

Infrastructure Information Management. Planning, Information &
Analytics. Facilities
and Operations

4th Floor, General Services Building, University of Alberta, Edmonton,
Alberta T6G 2H1

780 492 6258 (Tel) Jaya.yogasundaram at ualberta.ca

From python at net153.net  Tue Mar  9 17:57:52 2021
From: python at net153.net (Sam)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:57:52 -0600
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqQT-aNZgkqdR1=duRE02SjMmz-o1et74gv+A84Cn419Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>
 <CAPTjJmqQT-aNZgkqdR1=duRE02SjMmz-o1et74gv+A84Cn419Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8733efc6-d88a-844e-a567-10a111ea919d@net153.net>

On 3/8/21 3:35 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 8:31 AM D'Arcy Cain <darcy at vybenetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-03-06 4:24 p.m., Terry Reedy wrote:
>>> Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially
>>> with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.  A troll, among other
>>> things, is that method or the lure used.
>>
>> You are confusing "troll" with "trawl"
>>
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_(fishing)
> 
> ChrisA
> 


If you teach a man to fish....


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 18:17:21 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 17:17:21 -0600
Subject: Getting Modify Setup message
In-Reply-To: <CAEtr2jYFo=cCpMTYHpJtG0gjdL1gbJAdA9QTQmYGWCDFSe+AnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEtr2jYFo=cCpMTYHpJtG0gjdL1gbJAdA9QTQmYGWCDFSe+AnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxqRDc-UjLgiTRUiYxBohOwEQWtxhx-tVg3=pJPf9V43A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:05 PM Jaya Yogasundaram <jayay at ualberta.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> I just installed Python 3.9.2 on my computer a week ago . But I am getting
> the Modify Setup window pops up many times. How can I fix it. Let me know
> please.

Are you trying to re-run the setup?
What happens if you start the command prompt, type "python (without
quotes) and press Enter?
What OS are running? Is it Windows 10?
Can you go to "Start -> All Programs -> Python -> IDLE" and press Enter?

Thank you.

> thanks
> Jaya
>
>
> *Please note that I am working remotely until further notice.*
>
> Jaya Yogasundaram, P.Eng.
>
> IWMS Support & Development
>
> Infrastructure Information Management. Planning, Information &
> Analytics. Facilities
> and Operations
>
> 4th Floor, General Services Building, University of Alberta, Edmonton,
> Alberta T6G 2H1
>
> 780 492 6258 (Tel) Jaya.yogasundaram at ualberta.ca
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Tue Mar  9 18:19:20 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 23:19:20 +0000
Subject: Found a problem
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR16MB287334CC666E735AFB28519BF9929@DM6PR16MB2873.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM6PR16MB287334CC666E735AFB28519BF9929@DM6PR16MB2873.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <577fde7a-79ff-e2f4-ee7f-630ac6982bc5@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-09 20:16, Victor Dib wrote:
> Ol?, comunidade do Python!
> 
[snip]
> 
> def num_perf_inf(n):
>      divisors = []
>      perfects = []
>      limit = n - 1
>      for i in range(1, limit):
>          dividend = i + 1
>          for j in range(i):
>              divisor = j + 1
>              if dividend % divisor == 0:
>                  divisors.append(divisor)
>          print(f'Divisors of {i + 1}: {divisors}')
> 
>          divisors.pop()
>          if sum(divisors) == dividend:
>              perfects.append(i)
>          divisors.clear()
>      print(perfects)
> 
> 
> num_perf_inf(28)
> 
> E o resultado da execu??o desse c?digo, em Python 3.9.2 e em Python 3.8.7 (como j? mencionado, testei as duas vers?es da linguagem:
> 
> 
> Divisors of 2: [1]
> Divisors of 3: [1]
> Divisors of 4: [1, 2]
> Divisors of 5: [1]
> Divisors of 6: [1, 2, 3]
> Divisors of 7: [1]
> Divisors of 8: [1, 2, 4]
> Divisors of 9: [1, 3]
> Divisors of 10: [1, 2, 5]
> Divisors of 11: [1]
> Divisors of 12: [1, 2, 3, 4, 6]
> Divisors of 13: [1]
> Divisors of 14: [1, 2, 7]
> Divisors of 15: [1, 3, 5]
> Divisors of 16: [1, 2, 4, 8]
> Divisors of 17: [1]
> Divisors of 18: [1, 2, 3, 6, 9]
> Divisors of 19: [1]
> Divisors of 20: [1, 2, 4, 5, 10]
> Divisors of 21: [1, 3, 7]
> Divisors of 22: [1, 2, 11]
> Divisors of 23: [1]
> Divisors of 24: [1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12]
> Divisors of 25: [1, 5]
> Divisors of 26: [1, 2, 13]
> Divisors of 27: [1, 3, 9]
> [23]
> 
You're omitting one of the factors by popping it from the list.

You're also appending 'i' to the list of perfect numbers instead of 'i + 
1' (the dividend).

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Mar  9 20:36:31 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:36:31 +1300
Subject: Found a problem
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR16MB287334CC666E735AFB28519BF9929@DM6PR16MB2873.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM6PR16MB287334CC666E735AFB28519BF9929@DM6PR16MB2873.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <dc9729ee-fc25-5a78-69b2-062309d9b465@DancesWithMice.info>

On 10/03/2021 09.16, Victor Dib wrote:
> Ol?, comunidade do Python!


Ol? Victor!

At which point we should switch to English, because this is an
English-language list. (there may be Portuguese lists - I haven't looked)

Please do not be afraid to write in English. There are many here who are
quite aware of how difficult it can be to use a second, third, ...
language, and thus no-one will embarrass you - but, few here understand
Portuguese and so writing in English means that more people will
consider the question and attempt to help you...


> Meu nome ? Victor Dib, e sou um estudante brasileiro de programa??o.

We wish you well in your studies.


> J? entrei em contato com voc?s hoje, e voc?s solicitaram que eu me inscrevesse na lista de e-mails de voc?s primeiro. Bom, isso j? foi feito, ent?o espero que agora voc?s possam dar aten??o ao meu caso.

The list-community is a group of people who volunteer their time, and
are happy to help if they can (and if they want to do so).


> J? sou um usu?rio de n?vel iniciante pra m?dio da linguagem Python. Mas recentemente tive um problema no uso da linguagem.
> Ao construir uma fun??o que encontra n?meros perfeitos, percebi que a linguagem n?o estava realizando corretamente a inser??o de novos dados inteiros ? uma lista. Encaminharei imagens para demonstrar o meu problema.

Unfortunately, the list-server (software) removes graphics. Please
copy-paste code-snippets (as you did) and (all of) any error-messages,
sample outputs, etc.


> Tive problemas com a vers?o 3.9.2 da linguagem. Mas tamb?m usei a vers?o 3.8.7 (por ser marcada como est?vel no site da linguagem), e igualmente tive problemas.

The changes and improvements between the two versions of Python are
unlikely to affect this code.


> Acredito que n?o haja problemas em minha l?gica, e por isso gostaria que voc?s desse m uma olhada para ter certeza de que n?o ? um problema na linguagem.

Let's have a look and see if there is an error in the code-provided, or
if it's in the Python language itself...


> Odiaria que uma linguagem t?o incr?vel como o Python n?o funcionasse como deveria. Por isso, por favor, verifiquem meu caso!

We would not like to think that there is a fault in our favorite language!


> Obrigado!

You are welcome. Thanks for joining our community, and as time goes by,
we look forward to seeing you help others...


> O programa que escrevi para encontrar n?meros perfeitos:

Let's start with the definition of a "Perfect Number":
<<<
In number theory, a perfect number is a positive integer that is equal
to the sum of its positive divisors, excluding the number itself. For
instance, 6 has divisors 1, 2 and 3 (excluding itself), and 1 + 2 + 3 =
6, so 6 is a perfect number.

The sum of divisors of a number, excluding the number itself, is called
its aliquot sum, so a perfect number is one that is equal to its aliquot
sum...
The first few perfect numbers are 6, 28, 496 and 8128
>>>
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_number)


> def num_perf_inf(n):
>     divisors = []
>     perfects = []
>     limit = n - 1
>     for i in range(1, limit):
>         dividend = i + 1
>         for j in range(i):
>             divisor = j + 1
>             if dividend % divisor == 0:
>                 divisors.append(divisor)
>         print(f'Divisors of {i + 1}: {divisors}')
> 
>         divisors.pop()
>         if sum(divisors) == dividend:
>             perfects.append(i)
>         divisors.clear()
>     print(perfects)
> 
> 
> num_perf_inf(28)
> 
> E o resultado da execu??o desse c?digo, em Python 3.9.2 e em Python 3.8.7 (como j? mencionado, testei as duas vers?es da linguagem:
> 
> 
> Divisors of 2: [1]
> Divisors of 3: [1]
> Divisors of 4: [1, 2]
> Divisors of 5: [1]
> Divisors of 6: [1, 2, 3]
...

> Divisors of 27: [1, 3, 9]
> [23]


My thinking is different to yours, but it is how I solve problems.
Secondly, there is much in this code which is not idiomatic Python. I
want to make changes to make the code easier to understand...

The first thing I want to change is the function call. Human-thinking
says: give me all the "perfect numbers" up to 28. The code uses
Python-thinking, eg range( 28 ) is integers >0 and <28 (not <=28)

The second thing is that the first "perfect number" is six, so let's
start by making sure that it is correctly-reported.

num_perf_inf( 6 )

which requires another code-change:

def num_perf_inf( last_number_to_be_considered ):

Note: in Python "style" spaces before "(" are 'definitely-wrong', spaces
inside "(" and ")" are considered either 'wrong' or 'unnecessary'. I use
them to help my aged-eyes read the line of code.

The parameter "n" is only used in one place - to calculate "limit", and
"limit" is only used in one place. So, let's get rid of "limit" and
change the outer for-loop to:

for i in range( 1, last_number_to_be_considered + 1 ):

For our first test, "i" will cover the range: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.
Are we happy?

My mind is better with words. I prefer to call you "Victor"!

Plus, I've already changed the function's parameter, so let me continue
to help my understanding by changing "i" to a name which relates to the
parameter's name and its purpose:

for number_to_be_considered in range( 1, last_number_to_be_considered + 1 ):

Unfortunately, long identifiers start to exceed the line-length,
particularly in my email client. Apologies!

The 'message' is: use meaningful names!


Let's have a look at the loop now. What is it doing?

It performs two functions:
1 find the divisors from number_to_be_considered, and
2 asks if the number_to_be_considered is a "perfect number"

Let's separate those two tasks into separate sub-routines (functions),
so that each has only one responsibility - and can be tested separately
(and thus, more easily) and in great detail (with different source
data), etc, etc.

To get started, the function might now appear as:

    for number_to_be_considered in range( 1,
last_number_to_be_considered + 1 ):
        divisors = find_divisors( number_to_be_considered )
        is_perfect_number( number_to_be_considered, divisors )

Note that there is no longer any need to define "divisors" before the loop!

Yes, we could go one step further and combine these into a single line
with two function-calls. However, might that be unnecessarily complicated?


Let's start detailing the second function: "is_perfect_number()". Note
the choice of name appears to be a question. That's because it's result
should be a boolean condition - either the number is "perfect" or it is
not!

Remember what I said about "testing"? We can test this function, on its
own, eg

print( "Should be True :", is_perfect_number( 6, [ 1, 2, 3 ] ) )
print( "Should be False :", is_perfect_number( 4, [ 1, 2 ] ) )
(etc)

Let's copy the relevant lines of code into the new function.

Note moving the "perfects" list definition and replacing the "i"!

Also, added a debug-print so that we can see what's happening, and a
final line to return a boolean result:

def is_perfect_number( candidate_number:int, divisors:list[ int ] )->bool:
    perfects = []
    divisors.pop ()
    if sum (divisors) == candidate_number:
        perfects.append ( candidate_number )
    divisors.clear ()
    print( candidate_number, perfects )
    return bool( perfects )

Run the tests and this is the result:

6 []
Should be True : False
4 []
Should be False : False

Uh-oh!

Why is there a call to the pop() list-method? Let's jump into the Python
REPL (a terminal running Python):

>>> divisors = [ 1, 2, 3 ]
>>> divisors.pop()
3
>>> divisors
[1, 2]

Is this what we want?

So, after the .pop() when the sum() is calculated the list is missing
the 3 - yet the "perfect number" formula is: 1 + 2 + 3 = 6

Let's get rid of the pop() line and re-run the tests:

6 [6]
Should be True : True
4 []
Should be False : False

Additionally, as a matter of style, see the two parameters to the
function, and then how they are used in the if-statement? My mind wants
to see them used in the same order. Thus:

def is_perfect_number( candidate_number:int, divisors:list[ int ] )->bool:
    ...
    if candidate_number == sum( divisors ):
    ...

Note: this "consistency" was less apparent before I added the idea of a
separate function.


Thinking a bit more, why do we need the if-statement at all? Could we
turn the if's condition-clause into a return statement and remove
everything else from the function?

(and now some people will discuss: if the function is essentially only a
return-statement, why have the function at all? An answer is "testing"!)


Happy with that?

Let's turn our attention to the first function. There's not much to be
done here apart from copying the original code. However, I've changed
"j" into "candidate_divisor" because (again) that is a more descriptive
name.

Please refer to my comment (above) about whether or not to include zero
in a range. Does it 'hurt' (the extra execution time is negligible) or
create an incorrect result?

Another thought: is the maximum value of a divisor the
"number_to_be_considered" or could you halve the number of times that
loop is run?

The finished code has moved all of the adjustments to a range() function
to the range() call, rather than having "intermediate-variables".

I must admit, because the ranges all start from one, I might replace
range() with a Python generator which returns "positive integers" up to
a specified maxima, because that call will read more smoothly than
range( 1, ... ). However, if you don't know about generators, that's an
unnecessary complication.

Similarly, the code within find_divisors() could be reduced to a single
list-comprehension - but only if we are all comfortable with that
advanced-Python technique!


My version now consists of:

def num_perf_inf( last_number_to_be_considered:int ):
    for number_to_be_considered in range( 1,
last_number_to_be_considered + 1 ):
        divisors = find_divisors( number_to_be_considered )
        if is_perfect_number( number_to_be_considered, divisors ):
            print( number_to_be_considered )

find_divisors() with its explicit loop, is about five lines long
is_perfect_number() is one line, as mentioned
the perfects list has been dropped because we may as well print each
"perfect number" as it is 'found' rather than saving them and printing
them all at the end. (according to the spec[ification] as-presented)

Thus:

num_perf_inf (28)

results:

6
28


I haven't given you a copy of all of my code. You will only learn if you
do it yourself!


So, to wrap-up: Before considering if Python has made a mistake, it is
worth breaking down the larger problem into smaller units of code
("subroutines"), and checking that each of them works (correctly).

Alternately, I follow a practice called "TDD" (Test-Driven Development),
whereby each large problem is broken-down into subroutines, and then
each subroutine is individually created and tested. Further tests will
ensure that as the smaller-units are combined, they work-together
correctly. Finally, when all are combined, we expect that the entire
system will work.

The original code appeared to work, but one small part (ie do these
divisors reveal that the number is "perfect"?) was not correct.
Accordingly, the whole program[me] failed.

The (great) people who create the Python language and its interpreter
did not let us down!
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Tue Mar  9 19:58:26 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2021 19:58:26 -0500
Subject: "unexpected argument"
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hSHiB0y-cTFPGxidEQKfpqV7b9j6did6VpUCXKUD-o0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s295jj$5ks$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/9/2021 3:03 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:
> Error 1:
> Space Invaders.py:90: SyntaxWarning: "is" with a literal. Did you mean "=="?
>    if bullet_state is "fire":

Multiple string objects can have the same string value.  Just because 
bullet_state == 'fire' does not mean that it *is* the particular object 
being compared to.  Leaving testing aside, 'is' should only be used when 
the language mandates that there can only be one object with the value 
you want.  'is None' is the most common proper use.  Using 'is' when you 
should use '==' is a common and hard to understand beginner bug.


> Error 2:
> line 66, in <module>
>      if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
> AttributeError: 'Event' object has no attribute 'key'

>          # Check whether keystroke is being pressed
> 
>          if event.type == pygame.KEYDOWN:
>              if event.key == pygame.K_LEFT:
>                  player_X_change = -6
>              if event.key == pygame.K_RIGHT:
>                  player_X_change = 6
> 
>          if event.key == pygame.K_SPACE:
>              fire_bullet(player_X, bullet_Y)

For other keys, you check event.type first.  Here you do not.  At some 
point, you asked for the key for a non-key event.  Put this statement 
under the keyup or keydown event type check, depending on when you want 
fire to happen.

>          if event.type == pygame.KEYUP:
>              if event.key == pygame.K_LEFT or event.key == pygame.K_RIGHT:
>                  player_X_change = 0


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From sb.monzur at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 22:35:06 2021
From: sb.monzur at gmail.com (S Monzur)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 09:35:06 +0600
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
Message-ID: <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks! I ended up using beautiful soup to remove the html tags and create
three lists (titles of article, publications dates, main body) but am still
facing a problem where the list is not properly storing the main body.
There is something wrong with my code for that section, and any comment
would be really helpful!

 ListFile Text
<https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>
BeautifulSoup code for removing tags <https://pastebin.com/qvbVMUGD>


On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 4:32 AM Dan Ciprus (dciprus) <dciprus at cisco.com>
wrote:

> No problem, list just converts everything into plain/txt which is GREAT !
> :-)
>
> So without digging deeply into what you need to do: I am assuming that
> your
> input contains html tags. Why don't you utilize lib like:
> https://pypi.org/project/beautifulsoup4/ instead of doing harakiri with
> parsing
> data without using regex ? Just a hint ..
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 04:22:19AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
> >   Thank you and apologies! I did not realize how jumbled it was at the
> >   receiver's end.
> >   The code is now at this site :  [1]https://pastebin.com/wSi2xzBh
> >   I'm basically trying to do a few things with my code-
> >
> >    1. Extract 3 strings from the text- title, date and main text
> >
> >    2. Remove all tags afterwards
> >
> >    3. Save in a dictionary, with three keys- title, date and bodytext.
> >
> >    4. Remove punctuation and stopwords (I've used a user generated
> function
> >       for that).
> >
> >   I've been able to do all of these steps for the file
> [2]ListFileReduced,
> >   as shown in the code (although it's clunky).
> >
> >   But, I would like to be able to do it for the other text file:
> [3]ListFile
> >   which has more articles. I used BeautifulSoup to scrape the data from
> the
> >   website, and then generated a list that I saved as a text file.
> >
> >   Best,
> >   Monzur
> >   On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 4:00 AM Dan Ciprus (dciprus)
> >   <[4]dciprus at cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> >     If you could utilized pastebin or similar site to show your code, it
> >     would help
> >     tremendously since it's an unindented mess now and can not be read
> >     easily.
> >
> >     On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 03:07:14AM +0600, S Monzur wrote:
> >     >Dear List,
> >     >
> >     >Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html
> tags,
> >     >punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup
> >     (Python v
> >     >3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It
> >     returns a
> >     >list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a
> loop
> >     in
> >     >order to process all the items in the text file.
> >     >
> >     >In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data
> from
> >     one
> >     >news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
> >     ><[5]
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
> >),
> >     >however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing
> data
> >     from
> >     >multiple articles, link to listfile.text
> >     ><[6]
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >
> >     >).
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >Any help would be greatly appreciated!
> >     >
> >     >P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in
> >     English.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >#The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not
> >     sure
> >     >how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains
> raw
> >     data
> >     >from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
> >     >encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
> >     >#Separating body text from other data articleStart =
> rawData.find("<div
> >     >class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
> >     >rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
> >     >print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody)
> print("*******")
> >     >#First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
> >     >stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in
> >     pageContents:
> >     >if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
> >     >insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char
> return
> >     text
> >     >#Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
> >     >print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication
> date
> >     >TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
> >     >articleData.find("<div
> >     >class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
> >     >dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
> >     >storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
> >     >articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString =
> >     articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
> >     >##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString)
> >     articleDate
> >     >= stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate)
> >     #Cleaning
> >     >the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate
> =
> >     >articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
> >     >articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save
> >     all
> >     >this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body
> text
> >     >PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean,
> >     "Text":
> >     >articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1.
> Splitting
> >     >paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
> >     >articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing
> >     punctuation
> >     >and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A.
> >     Remove
> >     >punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList:
> for
> >     >mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '')
> >     listNoPunct.append(word)
> >     >print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords =
> stopwords()
> >     >print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if
> word in
> >     >banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word)
> print(cleanList)
> >     >--
> >     >[7]https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >
> >     --
> >
> >     Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
> >     CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.
> >
> >     [8]dciprus at cisco.com
> >
> >     tel: +1 703 484 0205
> >     mob: +1 540 223 7098
> >
> >References
> >
> >   Visible links
> >   1. https://pastebin.com/wSi2xzBh
> >   2.
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
> >   3.
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >   4. mailto:dciprus at cisco.com
> >   5.
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
> >   6.
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >   7. https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >   8. mailto:dciprus at cisco.com
>
> --
>
> Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
> CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.
>
> dciprus at cisco.com
>
> tel: +1 703 484 0205
> mob: +1 540 223 7098
>
>

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Mar  9 22:52:35 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 16:52:35 +1300
Subject: Please don't feed the trolls
In-Reply-To: <vn5g4ghpna3cpla2r7vehodfe7nuggqvs5@4ax.com>
References: <lkt0I.110846$NZB5.25051@fx03.ams4> <s2050a$nui$1@dont-email.me>
 <82O0I.152099$cEz2.58349@fx43.ams4> <s20fbj$rl2$1@dont-email.me>
 <QzP0I.167513$iBq4.103651@fx22.ams4> <s20k5a$1il$1@dont-email.me>
 <s20ruq$119j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <a92bcedb-5229-df9b-621e-10387a4e5af1@VybeNetworks.com>
 <CAPTjJmqQT-aNZgkqdR1=duRE02SjMmz-o1et74gv+A84Cn419Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <8733efc6-d88a-844e-a567-10a111ea919d@net153.net>
 <vn5g4ghpna3cpla2r7vehodfe7nuggqvs5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <7f96d346-afe6-1200-113b-5cd49a6669fa@DancesWithMice.info>

On 10/03/2021 13.47, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2021 16:57:52 -0600, Sam <python at net153.net> declaimed the
> following:
> 
>> On 3/8/21 3:35 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 8:31 AM D'Arcy Cain <darcy at vybenetworks.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2021-03-06 4:24 p.m., Terry Reedy wrote:
>>>>> Trolling, among other things, is fishing with a moving line, especially
>>>>> with a revolving lure, as from a moving boat.  A troll, among other
>>>>> things, is that method or the lure used.
>>>>
>>>> You are confusing "troll" with "trawl"
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_(fishing)
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>
>>
>> If you teach a man to fish....
> 
> ... he takes up residence under a bridge and becomes a troll... making it a
> troll bridge <G>


So, if you teach him to surf-cast

... he becomes the Mayor of Casterbridge?

An (old) book which includes:
- unexplainable behavior/drunkenness
- not being able to live-down one's past
- the future not turning-out quite as hoped
- banishment and self-banishment
- and a protagonist whose Last Will and Testament read:
"That Elizabeth-Jane Farfrae be not told of my death, or made to grieve
on account of me. that I be not bury'd in consecrated ground. that no
sexton be asked to toll the bell. that nobody is wished to see my dead
body. that no murners walk behind me at my funeral. that no flours be
planted on my grave, that no man remember me."

RiP - and this thread also!
-- 
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From joel.goldstick at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 03:56:07 2021
From: joel.goldstick at gmail.com (Joel Goldstick)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 03:56:07 -0500
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM-O+zMwbFWnKJ7OT75iD1kYTxsMnrprWqdb9QURKFACHnYTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 10:36 PM S Monzur <sb.monzur at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks! I ended up using beautiful soup to remove the html tags and create
> three lists (titles of article, publications dates, main body) but am still
> facing a problem where the list is not properly storing the main body.
> There is something wrong with my code for that section, and any comment
> would be really helpful!
>

Can you use a very small file to test?  I think you could edit your
data file to contain maybe two or three articles.  Then you could post
that file in your email (no attachments).  And you could post your
code which is probably not very long.  In that way, people here will
be better able to help you.

From tjol at tjol.eu  Wed Mar 10 04:00:38 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:00:38 +0100
Subject: Best practices regarding PYTHONPATH
In-Reply-To: <YEfuO5nnSYEpdmjh@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CACwCsY49N2A+i_aaNuSUz6CSECpD+ymxvfKAuUKPEcLDDp23sg@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEfuO5nnSYEpdmjh@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <4bf84126-19d0-9d36-5091-6350ed74fa33@tjol.eu>

On 09/03/2021 22:52, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 09Mar2021 05:00, Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Which is considered better? Having a long import path or setting PYTHONPATH?
>>
>> For example, in a project where 50% of the imports come from the same top
>> level directory is it better to add that dir to the path or reference it in
>> the import statements?
> All the below is personal opinion.
>
> I'd be leaving the $PYTHONPATH alone - I tweak it to access the required
> libraries, but not to change their dotted module paths.
>
> For example, I include ~/lib/python in my personal environment to access
> my personal modules, but I don't include
> ~/lib/python/cs/app/someapp/subpackage in order to shorten
> "cs.app.someapp.subpackage.foo" to just "foo".
>
> This is largely to avoid accidental shadowing of other modules. For
> example, supposing "foo" above were the subpath "os.path". Yes,
> contrived, but that's the flavour of problem I'm avoiding.
>
> I think I'd be ok with it provided I didn't go too far down. Eg, if all
> my "someapp"s were distinctively named I could be persuaded to use
> ~/lib/python/cs/app in the $PYTHONPATH, allowing
> "someapp.subpackage.foo". But I'd still be reluctant.

If you have a bunch of different packages you want to think of as "top 
level" but that live in different places for organizational reasons 
(e.g. someapp in ~/lib/python/cs/app/someapp and thatlib in 
~/lib/python/cs/lib/util/thatlib), I'd advocate treating them as proper 
Python packages with their own setup.py and everything, and installing 
them properly.

Editable installs (setup.py develop or pip install -e .) are great for this.

Personally when this is impractical for some reason I prefer creating 
*.pth files in site-packages to messing with PYTHONPATH as I find this 
easier to maintain, especially if you ever end up using different Python 
versions or different virtual environments.

Just my 0.02 ?.


>
> If the project modules are tightly bound relative imports can get you a
> fair way. Certainly within a package I do a lot of:
>
>      from .fixtures import these_things
>
> to grab from the adjacent "fixtures.py" file instead of:
>
>      from project.submodule.fixtures import these_things
>
> And I'm usually happy to go up an additional level:
>
>      from ..package2.fixtures import those_things
>
> Somewhere around 3 dots I start to worry about presuming too much, but
> that is an arbitrary decision based on the discipline (or lack of it) in
> the project naming.
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>



From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Mar 10 04:46:20 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:46:20 +0100
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>

On 10/03/2021 04:35, S Monzur wrote:
> Thanks! I ended up using beautiful soup to remove the html tags and create
> three lists (titles of article, publications dates, main body) but am still
> facing a problem where the list is not properly storing the main body.
> There is something wrong with my code for that section, and any comment
> would be really helpful!
> 
>   ListFile Text
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>

How did you create that file?

 > BeautifulSoup code for removing tags <https://pastebin.com/qvbVMUGD>

> print(bodytext[0]) # so here, I'm only getting the first paragraph of the body of the first article, not all of the first article
> 
> print(bodytext[1]) # here, I'm getting the second paragraph of the first article, and not the second article

It may help if you process the individual articles with beautiful soup, 
not the whole list at once.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Mar 10 04:46:20 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 10:46:20 +0100
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>

On 10/03/2021 04:35, S Monzur wrote:
> Thanks! I ended up using beautiful soup to remove the html tags and create
> three lists (titles of article, publications dates, main body) but am still
> facing a problem where the list is not properly storing the main body.
> There is something wrong with my code for that section, and any comment
> would be really helpful!
>
>   ListFile Text
> <https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing>

How did you create that file?

 > BeautifulSoup code for removing tags <https://pastebin.com/qvbVMUGD>

> print(bodytext[0]) # so here, I'm only getting the first paragraph of the body of the first article, not all of the first article
>
> print(bodytext[1]) # here, I'm getting the second paragraph of the first article, and not the second article

It may help if you process the individual articles with beautiful soup,
not the whole list at once.

From sb.monzur at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 07:19:38 2021
From: sb.monzur at gmail.com (S Monzur)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 18:19:38 +0600
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>
Message-ID: <CAKXx11yg3LM=1PtMrpCrR4m+QyTWvvvN=yFhUK=59RrGC9-bBQ@mail.gmail.com>

I initially scraped the links using beautiful soup, and from those links
downloaded the specific content of the articles I was interested in
(titles, dates, names of contributor, main texts) and stored that
information in a list. I then saved the list to a text file.
https://pastebin.com/8BMi9qjW . I am now trying to remove the html tags
from this text file, and running into issues as mentioned in the previous
post.



On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:46 PM Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> wrote:

> On 10/03/2021 04:35, S Monzur wrote:
> > Thanks! I ended up using beautiful soup to remove the html tags and
> create
> > three lists (titles of article, publications dates, main body) but am
> still
> > facing a problem where the list is not properly storing the main body.
> > There is something wrong with my code for that section, and any comment
> > would be really helpful!
> >
> >   ListFile Text
> > <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >
>
> How did you create that file?
>
>  > BeautifulSoup code for removing tags <https://pastebin.com/qvbVMUGD>
>
> > print(bodytext[0]) # so here, I'm only getting the first paragraph of
> the body of the first article, not all of the first article
> >
> > print(bodytext[1]) # here, I'm getting the second paragraph of the first
> article, and not the second article
>
> It may help if you process the individual articles with beautiful soup,
> not the whole list at once.
>

From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Mar 10 07:50:17 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:50:17 +0100
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11yg3LM=1PtMrpCrR4m+QyTWvvvN=yFhUK=59RrGC9-bBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>
 <CAKXx11yg3LM=1PtMrpCrR4m+QyTWvvvN=yFhUK=59RrGC9-bBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3826fc4d-d202-42f7-b320-515a2777d29c@web.de>

On 10/03/2021 13:19, S Monzur wrote:
> I initially scraped the links using beautiful soup, and from those links
> downloaded the specific content of the articles I was interested in
> (titles, dates, names of contributor, main texts) and stored that
> information in a list. I then saved the list to a text file.
> https://pastebin.com/8BMi9qjW . I am now trying to remove the html tags
> from this text file, and running into issues as mentioned in the previous
> post.

As I said in my previous post, when you process the list entries
separately you will probably avoid the problem.

Unfortunately with the format you chose to store your intermediate data
you cannot reconstruct it reliably.

I recommend that you either

(1) avoid the text file and extract the interesting parts from PASoup
directly or

(2) pick a different file format to store the result sets. For
short-term storage pickle
<https://docs.python.org/3/library/pickle.html#examples> should work.


From __peter__ at web.de  Wed Mar 10 07:50:17 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:50:17 +0100
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11yg3LM=1PtMrpCrR4m+QyTWvvvN=yFhUK=59RrGC9-bBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309220025.sek7k3jotwh5wxy5@localhost>
 <CAKXx11zh=qXNSMB3e+V2qvHd90bXZLBy6=YKHDut4DdHrFS66w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210309223207.rtonlznt5lbqsj7r@localhost>
 <CAKXx11ymr8K3x8jovC=VL7bbDRqerWWtF0tD1t6xug9yPaYJ8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <5abefbd5-205f-3eba-b5f1-997e7d524765@web.de>
 <CAKXx11yg3LM=1PtMrpCrR4m+QyTWvvvN=yFhUK=59RrGC9-bBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3826fc4d-d202-42f7-b320-515a2777d29c@web.de>

On 10/03/2021 13:19, S Monzur wrote:
> I initially scraped the links using beautiful soup, and from those links
> downloaded the specific content of the articles I was interested in
> (titles, dates, names of contributor, main texts) and stored that
> information in a list. I then saved the list to a text file.
> https://pastebin.com/8BMi9qjW . I am now trying to remove the html tags
> from this text file, and running into issues as mentioned in the previous
> post.

As I said in my previous post, when you process the list entries 
separately you will probably avoid the problem.

Unfortunately with the format you chose to store your intermediate data 
you cannot reconstruct it reliably.

I recommend that you either

(1) avoid the text file and extract the interesting parts from PASoup 
directly or

(2) pick a different file format to store the result sets. For 
short-term storage pickle
<https://docs.python.org/3/library/pickle.html#examples> should work.



From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 09:11:43 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 06:11:43 -0800
Subject: How to loop over a text file (to remove tags and normalize) using
 Python
In-Reply-To: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKXx11wyxT=cxvaD3uGzn4_Xe-ABN3BuGjJy7Hz0MN4SbircMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qpB1+ULjz7wR0cmzfYAxRbo18xnmBWxtEup4isU-7n2A@mail.gmail.com>

If you want text without tags, sometimes it's easier to use a text-based
web browser, EG:

#!/bin/sh

# for mutt to view html e-mails

#where html2txt is a shell script that performs the conversion, e.g. by
#calling

links -html-numbered-links 1 -html-images 1 -dump "file://$@"

#or
#
#lynx -force_html -dump "$@"
#
#or
#
#w3m -T text/html -F -dump "$@"


On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 1:26 PM S Monzur <sb.monzur at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Newbie here. I am trying to loop over a text file to remove html tags,
> punctuation marks, stopwords. I have already used Beautiful Soup (Python v
> 3.8.3) to scrape the text (newspaper articles) from the site. It returns a
> list that I saved as a file. However, I am not sure how to use a loop in
> order to process all the items in the text file.
>
> In the code below I have used listfilereduced.text(containing data from one
> news article, link to listfilereduced.txt here
> <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ojwN4u8cmh_nUoMJpdZ5ObaGW5URYYj3/view?usp=sharing
> >),
> however I would like to run this code on listfile.text(containing data from
> multiple articles, link to listfile.text
> <
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V3s8w8a3NQvex91EdOhdC9rQtCAOElpm/view?usp=sharing
> >
> ).
>
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> P.S. The text is in a Non-English script, but the tags are all in English.
>
>
> #The code below is for a textfile containing just one item. I am not sure
> how to tweak this to make it run for listfile.text (which contains raw data
> from multiple articles) with open('listfilereduced.txt', 'r',
> encoding='utf8') as my_file: rawData = my_file.read() print(rawData)
> #Separating body text from other data articleStart = rawData.find("<div
> class=\"story-element story-element-text\">") articleData =
> rawData[:articleStart] articleBody = rawData[articleStart:]
> print(articleData) print("*******") print(articleBody) print("*******")
> #First, I define a function to strip tags from the body text def
> stripTags(pageContents): insideTag = 0 text = '' for char in pageContents:
> if char == '<': insideTag = 1 elif (insideTag == 1 and char == '>'):
> insideTag = 0 elif insideTag == 1: continue else: text += char return text
> #Calling the function articleBodyText = stripTags(articleBody)
> print(articleBodyText) ##Isolating article title and publication date
> TitleEndLoc = articleData.find("</h1>") dateStartLoc =
> articleData.find("<div
> class=\"storyPageMetaData-m__publish-time__19bdV\">")
> dateEndLoc=articleData.find("<div class=\"meta-data-icons
> storyPageMetaDataIcons-m__icons__3E4Xg\">") titleString =
> articleData[:TitleEndLoc] dateString = articleData[dateStartLoc:dateEndLoc]
> ##Call stripTags to clean articleTitle= stripTags(titleString) articleDate
> = stripTags(dateString) print(articleTitle) print(articleDate) #Cleaning
> the date a bit more startLocDate = articleDate.find(":") endLocDate =
> articleDate.find(",") articleDateClean =
> articleDate[startLocDate+2:endLocDate] print(articleDateClean) #save all
> this data to a dictionary that saves the title, data and the body text
> PAloTextDict = {"Title": articleTitle, "Date": articleDateClean, "Text":
> articleBodyText} print(PAloTextDict) #Normalize text by: #1. Splitting
> paragraphs of text into lists of words articleBodyWordList =
> articleBodyText.split() print(articleBodyWordList) #2.Removing punctuation
> and stopwords from bnlp.corpus import stopwords, punctuations #A. Remove
> punctuation first listNoPunct = [] for word in articleBodyWordList: for
> mark in punctuations: word=word.replace(mark, '') listNoPunct.append(word)
> print(listNoPunct) #B. removing stopwords banglastopwords = stopwords()
> print(banglastopwords) cleanList=[] for word in listNoPunct: if word in
> banglastopwords: continue else: cleanList.append(word) print(cleanList)
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From tjol at tjol.eu  Wed Mar 10 10:41:36 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 16:41:36 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>

On 09/03/2021 23:42, Marco Sulla wrote:
> As title. Currently I ended up using this trick in my setup.py:
>
>
> if len(argv) > 1 and argv[1] == "c":
>      sys.argv = [sys.argv[0]] + sys.argv[2:]
>      setuptools.setup(ext_modules = ext_modules, **common_setup_args)
> else:
>      setuptools.setup(**common_setup_args)
>
>
> So if I pass "c" as the first argument of ./setup.py , the c extension
> is builded, otherwise the py version is packaged.
>
> Is there not a better way to do this?


Why are you doing this?

If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from 
source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare 
your extension modules optional, with the "optional" argument to 
setuptools.Extension. see 
(https://docs.python.org/3/distutils/apiref.html#distutils.core.Extension)


- Thomas



From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 12:42:19 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 18:42:19 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 16:45, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
> Why are you doing this?
>
> If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from
> source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare
> your extension modules optional

Because I want to provide (at least) two wheels: a wheel for linux
users with the C extension compiled and a generic wheel in pure python
as a fallback for any other architecture.

If I make the extension optional, as far as I know, only one wheel is
produced: the wheel with the extension if all is successful, or the
pure py wheel.

From tjol at tjol.eu  Wed Mar 10 13:56:42 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:56:42 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
 <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cf5e756b-686e-3117-6d94-a3285e7f423a@tjol.eu>

On 10/03/2021 18:42, Marco Sulla wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 16:45, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
>> Why are you doing this?
>>
>> If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from
>> source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare
>> your extension modules optional
> Because I want to provide (at least) two wheels: a wheel for linux
> users with the C extension compiled and a generic wheel in pure python
> as a fallback for any other architecture.

What's wrong with sdist as a fallback rather than a wheel?

That has the added benefit of people on other architectures have the 
opportunity to use the extension module if they have a compiler and the 
necessary libraries and headers installed...


>
> If I make the extension optional, as far as I know, only one wheel is
> produced: the wheel with the extension if all is successful, or the
> pure py wheel.



From mats at wichmann.us  Wed Mar 10 14:57:08 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 12:57:08 -0700
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <cf5e756b-686e-3117-6d94-a3285e7f423a@tjol.eu>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
 <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf5e756b-686e-3117-6d94-a3285e7f423a@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <dc5417cf-d35d-6d17-d18a-3879821ee65e@wichmann.us>

On 3/10/21 11:56 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote:
> On 10/03/2021 18:42, Marco Sulla wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 16:45, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
>>> Why are you doing this?
>>>
>>> If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from
>>> source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare
>>> your extension modules optional
>> Because I want to provide (at least) two wheels: a wheel for linux
>> users with the C extension compiled and a generic wheel in pure python
>> as a fallback for any other architecture.
> 
> What's wrong with sdist as a fallback rather than a wheel?
> 
> That has the added benefit of people on other architectures have the 
> opportunity to use the extension module if they have a compiler and the 
> necessary libraries and headers installed...

Doesn't that mean nasty failures for those don't have the correct build 
setup (like almost every Windows user on the planet)?   This isn't a 
snide question, I'm actually interested in solving roughly the same 
problem as the OP.




From yoosufoluwatosin at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 14:25:40 2021
From: yoosufoluwatosin at yahoo.com (Yoosuf Oluwatosin)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:25:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Application problems
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>


I have downloaded python 3.9.2 on my hp laptop with windows 10 and tried opening both the normal python and the idle python on my pc but the norml keeps opening the modify, repair and uninstall page while the idle keeps giving a startup error. I have uninstalled, deleted and reinstalled several times but it is still the same thing. What could be the problem.

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

From mats at wichmann.us  Wed Mar 10 15:50:22 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 13:50:22 -0700
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <50f1d772-acce-6c77-151a-10969167c03d@wichmann.us>


On 3/10/21 12:25 PM, Yoosuf Oluwatosin via Python-list wrote:
> 
> I have downloaded python 3.9.2 on my hp laptop with windows 10 and tried opening both the normal python and the idle python on my pc but the norml keeps opening the modify, repair and uninstall page while the idle keeps giving a startup error. I have uninstalled, deleted and reinstalled several times but it is still the same thing. What could be the problem.

For the first one, don't feel too bad, this ("opening the normal 
python") seems to be biting a lot of people recently - the downloaded 
file is the installer, not Python itself, and you can remove it after 
installing to avoid accidentally launching it (there's some discussion 
of renaming it to make it a little more clear it's not Python itself). 
You can always still get at the modify/repair functionality the normal 
windows way, from the apps menu.

Try launching Python from the start menu. You can either navigate to the 
start menu item, or start typing Python and it should give you a match 
that looks like

Python 3.8 (64-bit)   App

Or from a shell (cmd or Powershell) window, type

py


More information here:

https://docs.python.org/3/using/windows.html

there are actually a fair number of permutations to Python on Windows, 
the page does a good job of covering them.

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 15:53:21 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 14:53:21 -0600
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTx6nYk3TXjRDO7yjXd12rGTXVoW4U5TOZRZgEAeYvpioQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 2:37 PM Yoosuf Oluwatosin via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>
> I have downloaded python 3.9.2 on my hp laptop with windows 10 and tried opening both the normal python and the idle python on my pc but the norml keeps opening the modify, repair and uninstall page while the idle keeps giving a startup error. I have uninstalled, deleted and reinstalled several times but it is still the same thing. What could be the problem.

What kind of error you get from IDLE?
Can you open the Command Prompt and type "python" (without quotes) and
press Enter?

Thank you.

>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From swistakm at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 16:13:48 2021
From: swistakm at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_Jaworski?=)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 22:13:48 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <dc5417cf-d35d-6d17-d18a-3879821ee65e@wichmann.us>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
 <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf5e756b-686e-3117-6d94-a3285e7f423a@tjol.eu>
 <dc5417cf-d35d-6d17-d18a-3879821ee65e@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <CAMkRj3H+jruMUPBmxxcg0i3vhO69eOrnu4vEr7uu81kwjAo3mw@mail.gmail.com>

I was dealing with a very similar problem a long time ago. I wanted to
provide built wheels of my Cython extension for various OSes (Windows,
macOS, Linux) and various Python versions (from 2.7 up to 3.9) but I also
wanted to have a sdist package for all the variations that I didn't cover
at the time.

What I ended up doing was automating the whole process on two different CI
systems (one of those didn't have Windows support and the other was
Windows-only) but also provided the sdist distribution with both Cython and
Cython-generated C++ sources. Users can opt-in for cython installation
using setuptools extras feature. For instance:

pip install my-package[with-cython]

Additionally whether to compile from Cython or C++ sources is controlled
with environment variable, something like:

CYTHONIZE=1 pip install my-package

Using env vars instead of extra command arg for setup.py makes it easy to
use with pip, poetry or whatever installer your user decides to use.

The whole setup required a bit of work but in the end it has been working
for a few years already. Definitely the hardest thing to maintain are those
ever-changing CI systems. Adding the support for optional building from
sources was actually the simplest to do. I don't spend a lot of time on the
project lately but if you are interested how the whole thing was here's the
url: https://github.com/swistakm/pyimgui


?r., 10 mar 2021 o 20:57 Mats Wichmann <mats at wichmann.us> napisa?(a):

> On 3/10/21 11:56 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote:
> > On 10/03/2021 18:42, Marco Sulla wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 16:45, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
> >>> Why are you doing this?
> >>>
> >>> If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from
> >>> source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare
> >>> your extension modules optional
> >> Because I want to provide (at least) two wheels: a wheel for linux
> >> users with the C extension compiled and a generic wheel in pure python
> >> as a fallback for any other architecture.
> >
> > What's wrong with sdist as a fallback rather than a wheel?
> >
> > That has the added benefit of people on other architectures have the
> > opportunity to use the extension module if they have a compiler and the
> > necessary libraries and headers installed...
>
> Doesn't that mean nasty failures for those don't have the correct build
> setup (like almost every Windows user on the planet)?   This isn't a
> snide question, I'm actually interested in solving roughly the same
> problem as the OP.
>
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From tjol at tjol.eu  Wed Mar 10 16:45:50 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 22:45:50 +0100
Subject: How to create both a c extension and a pure python package
In-Reply-To: <dc5417cf-d35d-6d17-d18a-3879821ee65e@wichmann.us>
References: <CABbU2U8RcEnqKCigu9VKBqOsJRqshhoaKa8ZTVjr=WaQ7C12=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <19ca51e1-c214-bb5b-b58d-a00a98051da8@tjol.eu>
 <CABbU2U8xnGxcHkrcgX5WGFs8XJK6S4oy6eWZnA=4pQMS68pU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <cf5e756b-686e-3117-6d94-a3285e7f423a@tjol.eu>
 <dc5417cf-d35d-6d17-d18a-3879821ee65e@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <57832fe9-a055-2e06-76f8-b4f399cd9ed1@tjol.eu>

On 10/03/2021 20:57, Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 3/10/21 11:56 AM, Thomas Jollans wrote:
>> On 10/03/2021 18:42, Marco Sulla wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Mar 2021 at 16:45, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
>>>> Why are you doing this?
>>>>
>>>> If all you want is for it to be possible to install the package from
>>>> source on a system that can't use the C part, you could just declare
>>>> your extension modules optional
>>> Because I want to provide (at least) two wheels: a wheel for linux
>>> users with the C extension compiled and a generic wheel in pure python
>>> as a fallback for any other architecture.
>>
>> What's wrong with sdist as a fallback rather than a wheel?
>>
>> That has the added benefit of people on other architectures have the 
>> opportunity to use the extension module if they have a compiler and 
>> the necessary libraries and headers installed...
>
> Doesn't that mean nasty failures for those don't have the correct 
> build setup (like almost every Windows user on the planet)??? This 
> isn't a snide question, I'm actually interested in solving roughly the 
> same problem as the OP.

I believe that this is pretty much exactly the problem that the 
"optional" flag for extensions solves.

docs: "specifies that a build failure in the extension should not abort 
the build process, but simply skip the extension."

I would assume this refers to *any* build failure (including a missing 
compiler), so people without a proper build system might get error 
messages, but should still get a working package (assuming of course the 
C extensions is *actually* optional, like an accelerator module).

But I don't have experience with this myself so take what I say with a 
grain of salt.


- Thomas




From tjol at tjol.eu  Wed Mar 10 17:11:36 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 23:11:36 +0100
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <50f1d772-acce-6c77-151a-10969167c03d@wichmann.us>
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
 <50f1d772-acce-6c77-151a-10969167c03d@wichmann.us>
Message-ID: <914fbe51-e686-aede-442a-81f88e7d04bf@tjol.eu>

On 10/03/2021 21:50, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>
> For the first one, don't feel too bad, this ("opening the normal 
> python") seems to be biting a lot of people recently


I wonder why. Python's installation process isn't any different from 
most other Windows software released the past 25-ish years. Is it 
possible that Windows 10's search feature sometimes makes poor choices, 
and typing "<Windows>python" just brings up the wrong thing?

(I just tested it on a clean VM and that's not what happens, but maybe 
for some people? I dunno)


From pjfarley3 at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 19:32:37 2021
From: pjfarley3 at earthlink.net (pjfarley3 at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:32:37 -0500
Subject: Digest emails stopped?
Message-ID: <001e01d7160e$09adfe70$1d09fb50$@earthlink.net>

Is anyone else who is set to receive digest emails receiving them since
Sunday 3/7/2021?  Sunday was the last day I received one.

I was under the impression that any activity at all on the list would result
in a digest email being sent at the end of that day, and according to the
archive there has been some activity since 3/7/2021.

Peter


From nospam at please.ty  Thu Mar 11 02:07:40 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 08:07:40 +0100
Subject: Compare word to word files
References: <aa2bc5be-77bf-4f2b-8102-a79b904e1dfcn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <s2cfjq$1o9m$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 11/03/2021 05:28, CLYMATIC GAMING ha scritto:
> Hello ,
> I want to compare word to word files
> please he me!
> 
copy and paset this string onto
Google page:

how to find difference between 2 files in Python

...and press "Google Search" button.

From rob.cliffe at btinternet.com  Thu Mar 11 06:01:18 2021
From: rob.cliffe at btinternet.com (Rob Cliffe)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 11:01:18 +0000
Subject: REPL peculiarity
Message-ID: <a07b5c28-5e31-0f8d-8a74-ec2f4bbb0a48@btinternet.com>

This is a valid Python program:

def f(): pass
print(f)

But at the REPL:

 >>> def f(): pass
... print(f)
 ? File "<stdin>", line 2
 ??? print(f)
 ??? ^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax

It doesn't seem to matter what the second line is.? In the REPL you have 
to leave a blank line after the "def" line.? Why?
Tested am using Python 3.8.3 and 2.7.18.

Rob Cliffe

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Mar 11 01:45:09 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 01:45:09 -0500
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <s2ce9l$15nt$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/10/2021 2:25 PM, Yoosuf Oluwatosin via Python-list wrote:
> 
> I have downloaded python 3.9.2 on my hp laptop with windows 10 and tried opening both the normal python and the idle python on my pc but the norml keeps opening the modify, repair and uninstall page while the idle keeps giving a startup error.

How did you try to start IDLE and what 'startup error' did you see.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Mar 11 08:27:18 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 13:27:18 +0000
Subject: REPL peculiarity
In-Reply-To: <a07b5c28-5e31-0f8d-8a74-ec2f4bbb0a48@btinternet.com>
References: <a07b5c28-5e31-0f8d-8a74-ec2f4bbb0a48@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <s2d5rm$j07$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 11/03/2021 11:01, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:
> This is a valid Python program:
> 
> def f(): pass
> print(f)
> 
> But at the REPL:
> 
>  >>> def f(): pass
> ... print(f)
>  ? File "<stdin>", line 2
>  ??? print(f)
>  ??? ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> 
> It doesn't seem to matter what the second line is.? In the REPL you have 
> to leave a blank line after the "def" line.? Why?

I guess just because that's how the interpreter is written. It looks for
a blank line to terminate the function definition. It does the same with
multi-line definitions too. I agree it would be possible in the case of
single line definitions to forego the blank line but it doesn't.
It does remind you that you need another line since it shows the
secondary prompt ... instead of the primary >>>

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Thu Mar 11 08:52:23 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 08:52:23 -0500
Subject: REPL peculiarity
In-Reply-To: <a07b5c28-5e31-0f8d-8a74-ec2f4bbb0a48@btinternet.com>
References: <a07b5c28-5e31-0f8d-8a74-ec2f4bbb0a48@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <s2d7ao$i81$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/11/2021 6:01 AM, Rob Cliffe via Python-list wrote:
> This is a valid Python program:
> 
> def f(): pass
> print(f)
> 
> But at the REPL:
> 
>  >>> def f(): pass
> ... print(f)
>  ? File "<stdin>", line 2
>  ??? print(f)
>  ??? ^
> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
> 
> It doesn't seem to matter what the second line is.? In the REPL you have 
> to leave a blank line after the "def" line.? Why?

REPL executes *one* statement at a time.  It has always required a blank 
to end a compound statement because ending with a dedented second 
statement violates that.

Something like
 >>> def f():
...      a = 3

is more typical.  A dedented statement looks like a buggy continuation 
line.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From as at sci.fi  Thu Mar 11 09:06:22 2021
From: as at sci.fi (Anssi Saari)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 16:06:22 +0200
Subject: Application problems
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
 <50f1d772-acce-6c77-151a-10969167c03d@wichmann.us>
 <914fbe51-e686-aede-442a-81f88e7d04bf@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <sm05z1xu6n5.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>

Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> writes:

> On 10/03/2021 21:50, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>>
>> For the first one, don't feel too bad, this ("opening the normal
>> python") seems to be biting a lot of people recently
>
>
> I wonder why. Python's installation process isn't any different from
> most other Windows software released the past 25-ish years. Is it
> possible that Windows 10's search feature sometimes makes poor
> choices, and typing "<Windows>python" just brings up the wrong thing?

I'm thinking maybe it's people who've never installed anything? Since
for Facebook or whatever you only need a browser...


From sourabhsain7860 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 23:28:08 2021
From: sourabhsain7860 at gmail.com (CLYMATIC GAMING)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2021 20:28:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Compare word to word files
Message-ID: <aa2bc5be-77bf-4f2b-8102-a79b904e1dfcn@googlegroups.com>

Hello ,
I want to compare word to word files 
please he me!

From apurvadhok at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 05:01:04 2021
From: apurvadhok at gmail.com (APURVA DHOK)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 15:31:04 +0530
Subject: Regarding Python installation issue
Message-ID: <CAOzLRP41QnO2pdayx67niEnQXZE2MU+3TUSLghKKXwBgG-dVQg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I am Apurva
I am facing a problem with the Python installation. After installing any
Python version with(32 bit/64bit) on windows the script folder in python is
empty please help me to get pip.exe and easy_install.exe

Thanks & Regards
Apurva Dhok
9145619646
Pune, Maharashtra, India

From yoosufoluwatosin at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 11 10:28:29 2021
From: yoosufoluwatosin at yahoo.com (Yoosuf Oluwatosin)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 15:28:29 +0000
Subject: IDLE python
Message-ID: <4DxCX34Ct4zpDx9@mail.python.org>


I have tried to startup my IDLE python severally but it keeps giving the following message:
IDLE?s  subprocess didn?t make connection. See the ?Startup Failure? section of the IDLE doc online at https://docs.python.org/3/library/idle.html#startup-failure. 
I have gone to the page and followed all the procedures listed there but there is still no change. I need help on this
Sent from Mail for Windows 10


From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 10:40:40 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 09:40:40 -0600
Subject: Regarding Python installation issue
In-Reply-To: <CAOzLRP41QnO2pdayx67niEnQXZE2MU+3TUSLghKKXwBgG-dVQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOzLRP41QnO2pdayx67niEnQXZE2MU+3TUSLghKKXwBgG-dVQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTwdPj9g5xyWxBUWVXEOhgrxf_cBzzDnfd=_zUnKMtLvvA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 8:57 AM APURVA DHOK <apurvadhok at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, I am Apurva
> I am facing a problem with the Python installation. After installing any
> Python version with(32 bit/64bit) on windows the script folder in python is
> empty please help me to get pip.exe and easy_install.exe

Which python did you install?
Which version?
You have Windows 10 or smth else?

Thank you.

>
> Thanks & Regards
> Apurva Dhok
> 9145619646
> Pune, Maharashtra, India
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From storchaka at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 11:00:08 2021
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 18:00:08 +0200
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2deq8$s78$1@ciao.gmane.io>

03.03.21 01:24, Chris Angelico ????:
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
>>> Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
>>
>> It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
>> exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.
>>
>> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
>> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
>> in production code.
>>
> 
> Really?
> 
> if PRODUCTION:
>     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> 
> would work if it were a function :)

assert(expensive_computation())


From barry at barrys-emacs.org  Thu Mar 11 12:41:30 2021
From: barry at barrys-emacs.org (Barry)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 17:41:30 +0000
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <914fbe51-e686-aede-442a-81f88e7d04bf@tjol.eu>
References: <914fbe51-e686-aede-442a-81f88e7d04bf@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <323A1D3A-DB62-43AA-B348-C21D74BE8507@barrys-emacs.org>



> On 10 Mar 2021, at 22:14, Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
> 
> ?On 10/03/2021 21:50, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>> 
>> For the first one, don't feel too bad, this ("opening the normal python") seems to be biting a lot of people recently
> 
> 
> I wonder why. Python's installation process isn't any different from most other Windows software released the past 25-ish years. Is it possible that Windows 10's search feature sometimes makes poor choices, and typing "<Windows>python" just brings up the wrong thing?
> 
> (I just tested it on a clean VM and that's not what happens, but maybe for some people? I dunno

I think it is as simple as the python installer does not have the string ?setup? in the name.
I raise a bpo that is getting worked to change this hopefully for 3.10 maybe 3.11.

Barry




> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> 


From tjol at tjol.eu  Thu Mar 11 13:10:27 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 19:10:27 +0100
Subject: Application problems
In-Reply-To: <sm05z1xu6n5.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>
References: <700948076.2316710.1615404340357.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <700948076.2316710.1615404340357@mail.yahoo.com>
 <50f1d772-acce-6c77-151a-10969167c03d@wichmann.us>
 <914fbe51-e686-aede-442a-81f88e7d04bf@tjol.eu>
 <sm05z1xu6n5.fsf@lakka.kapsi.fi>
Message-ID: <4318b4d0-bfb5-713c-4d2b-881448b138e3@tjol.eu>

On 11/03/2021 15:06, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> writes:
>
>> On 10/03/2021 21:50, Mats Wichmann wrote:
>>> For the first one, don't feel too bad, this ("opening the normal
>>> python") seems to be biting a lot of people recently
>>
>> I wonder why. Python's installation process isn't any different from
>> most other Windows software released the past 25-ish years. Is it
>> possible that Windows 10's search feature sometimes makes poor
>> choices, and typing "<Windows>python" just brings up the wrong thing?
> I'm thinking maybe it's people who've never installed anything? Since
> for Facebook or whatever you only need a browser...
>
Plus now there's the Microsoft Store for a lot of things, yeah


From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 13:31:38 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 05:31:38 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <s2deq8$s78$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s2deq8$s78$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:37 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 03.03.21 01:24, Chris Angelico ????:
> > On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 10:22 AM Mirko via Python-list
> > <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Am 02.03.2021 um 23:09 schrieb Stestagg:
> >>> Ignoring the question about this feature being particularly useful, it
> >>
> >> It is useful because "assert" is primarily (if not purely and
> >> exclusive) a debugging tool during development and testing.
> >>
> >> In production code you don't want any asserts, but logging. Having
> >> "assert" being a function would make it much harder to get rid of it
> >> in production code.
> >>
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > if PRODUCTION:
> >     def assert(*a, **kw): pass
> >
> > would work if it were a function :)
>
> assert(expensive_computation())
>

Do you have any asserts like that, or is that a purely theoretical
complaint? I have never once seen anything that costly - usually it'll
be something like checking a length (and this isn't C's strlen, since
Python can get lengths of all built-in types quickly), or some simple
checks.

Having assert be a function would not make it much harder to get rid
of. It would just make it harder to get the text.

ChrisA

From storchaka at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 16:01:35 2021
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 23:01:35 +0200
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <YD1jtJj7u+m945Vk@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io> <YD1jtJj7u+m945Vk@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <s2e0fg$43e$1@ciao.gmane.io>

01.03.21 23:59, Cameron Simpson ????:
> On 28Feb2021 23:47, Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
>>>
>>>     def __iter__(self):
>>>         yield from ()
>>
>> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
>> this before:
>>
>> yield from ()
>>
>> What is it doing?
>> What do the () represent in this context?
> 
> It's an empty tuple. The yield from iterates over the tuple, yielding 
> zero times. There are shorter ways to write that (eg outright omitting 
> the yield), except when you're writing a generator function with only a 
> single yield statement - then you need something like that to make it a 
> generator.

I was wondering what from following variants is more efficient:

    def gen1():
        yield from ()

    def gen2():
        return
        yield

    def gen3():
        return iter(())


$ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g(): yield from ()' 'list(g())'
1000000 loops, best of 5: 266 nsec per loop
$ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g():' -s ' return' -s ' yield' 'list(g())'
1000000 loops, best of 5: 219 nsec per loop
$ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g(): return iter(())' 'list(g())'
2000000 loops, best of 5: 192 nsec per loop


From storchaka at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 16:20:26 2021
From: storchaka at gmail.com (Serhiy Storchaka)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 23:20:26 +0200
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABbU2U_LSYRa4HRjO5H-vo0SQcxq2c_+7ML_R_ZxyYnPd42nWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoVEK0qepsVpFqQSucQrBUdc=0-QWP2s_iFKiyg2jNA_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Zs0Ve5ZPKawz_Zc+Y8+7GhXFjYJ6iLKmi5jF-8OHO_Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <603EC854.6010008@googlemail.com>
 <CAPTjJmocB739Ti1W9-WZAicg1xjup+rGNMGSm5ihWyjguOU_-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s2deq8$s78$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2e1ir$dh6$1@ciao.gmane.io>

11.03.21 20:31, Chris Angelico ????:
>> assert(expensive_computation())
> 
> Do you have any asserts like that, or is that a purely theoretical
> complaint? I have never once seen anything that costly - usually it'll
> be something like checking a length (and this isn't C's strlen, since
> Python can get lengths of all built-in types quickly), or some simple
> checks.

I have a lot of asserts when use other programming languages. Even
simple bound check for index can be too expensive for optimized build.
It is less common in Python because it is less common to use -O option
in Python. If most users do not bother to use -O option, you do not want
to make your library slower for them by adding runtime self-checks. It
is not possible to enable optimization on per-package level.


From cs at cskk.id.au  Thu Mar 11 16:26:42 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:26:42 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>

On 12Mar2021 05:31, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:37 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka at gmail.com> wrote:
>> assert(expensive_computation())
>
>Do you have any asserts like that, or is that a purely theoretical
>complaint? I have never once seen anything that costly - usually it'll
>be something like checking a length (and this isn't C's strlen, since
>Python can get lengths of all built-in types quickly), or some simple
>checks.

That's very much in the eye of the beholder. Usually my asserts are 
pretty cheap. But there are two scenarios where they accrue significant 
cost.

Scenario 1 is where I'm maintaining some data structure, possibly with 
fiddly corner cases. That associated class may have a self_check method 
to verify integrity, and that can land in an assertion. Potentially 
quite expensive.

Scenario 2 is the performance critical function which nonetheless is 
complicated (or just... long). I've written a few of these and littering 
the code with asserts becomes necessary to check correctness, 
particularly if you're modifying it. Not everything lends itself to unit 
tests - we often want to be assured of things in the middle of a 
process.

In scenario 2, each assert is pretty cheap, but their cumulative effect 
has a significant performance impact. Being able to turn them off 
altogether is a distinct real world win.

(To those crying "break it up", sometimes that is hard because of the 
embodied state, and sometimes that is unwanted because of the 
performance impact (function calls aren't free and neither is the 
packaging-into-parameters needed to turn an operation into a function 
call); for 99% of code both of these are cheap enough, but in this niche 
they're a problem.

>Having assert be a function would not make it much harder to get rid
>of. It would just make it harder to get the text.

Hah. I repeat my mention of the ycecream package - very neat!

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 16:30:30 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:30:30 +1100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s2e0fg$43e$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s1ha1p$kd$1@ciao.gmane.io> <YD1jtJj7u+m945Vk@cskk.homeip.net>
 <s2e0fg$43e$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr0Csm-+akBgcstWc3GSZudS9t63rC_bYF+mnrC7bVMFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 8:20 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 01.03.21 23:59, Cameron Simpson ????:
> > On 28Feb2021 23:47, Alan Gauld <alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 28/02/2021 00:17, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> >>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
> >>> the subboxes. For MDAT that is implemented like this:
> >>>
> >>>     def __iter__(self):
> >>>         yield from ()
> >>
> >> Sorry, a bit OT but I'm curious. I haven't seen
> >> this before:
> >>
> >> yield from ()
> >>
> >> What is it doing?
> >> What do the () represent in this context?
> >
> > It's an empty tuple. The yield from iterates over the tuple, yielding
> > zero times. There are shorter ways to write that (eg outright omitting
> > the yield), except when you're writing a generator function with only a
> > single yield statement - then you need something like that to make it a
> > generator.
>
> I was wondering what from following variants is more efficient:
>
>     def gen1():
>         yield from ()
>
>     def gen2():
>         return
>         yield
>
>     def gen3():
>         return iter(())
>
>
> $ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g(): yield from ()' 'list(g())'
> 1000000 loops, best of 5: 266 nsec per loop
> $ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g():' -s ' return' -s ' yield' 'list(g())'
> 1000000 loops, best of 5: 219 nsec per loop
> $ python3.9 -m timeit -s 'def g(): return iter(())' 'list(g())'
> 2000000 loops, best of 5: 192 nsec per loop
>

They're not identical. The first two are, I believe, equivalent (and
you could add "if False: yield" as another comparison if you care),
but the third one isn't a generator. So if all you need is an
iterator, sure, but gen3 actually isn't doing as much as the other two
are.

ChrisA

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Mar 11 16:45:58 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:45:58 +1300
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>

On 12/03/2021 10.26, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 12Mar2021 05:31, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:37 AM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> assert(expensive_computation())
>>
>> Do you have any asserts like that, or is that a purely theoretical
>> complaint? I have never once seen anything that costly - usually it'll
>> be something like checking a length (and this isn't C's strlen, since
>> Python can get lengths of all built-in types quickly), or some simple
>> checks.
> 
> That's very much in the eye of the beholder. Usually my asserts are 
> pretty cheap. But there are two scenarios where they accrue significant 
> cost.
> 
> Scenario 1 is where I'm maintaining some data structure, possibly with 
> fiddly corner cases. That associated class may have a self_check method 
> to verify integrity, and that can land in an assertion. Potentially 
> quite expensive.
> 
> Scenario 2 is the performance critical function which nonetheless is 
> complicated (or just... long). I've written a few of these and littering 
> the code with asserts becomes necessary to check correctness, 
> particularly if you're modifying it. Not everything lends itself to unit 
> tests - we often want to be assured of things in the middle of a 
> process.
> 
> In scenario 2, each assert is pretty cheap, but their cumulative effect 
> has a significant performance impact. Being able to turn them off 
> altogether is a distinct real world win.
> 
> (To those crying "break it up", sometimes that is hard because of the 
> embodied state, and sometimes that is unwanted because of the 
> performance impact (function calls aren't free and neither is the 
> packaging-into-parameters needed to turn an operation into a function 
> call); for 99% of code both of these are cheap enough, but in this niche 
> they're a problem.

Having read this, and @Chris' points, am wondering if I'm missing a/the
point:-

(Scenarios 1 and 2, plus leaving the asserts to run in case of
'accidents' during production-execution)

When testing the integrity of some collection of data, why use assert
over raising a descriptive and class-identified exception?

Both can be trapped by 'higher-level' code. Both can provide
text-planations.

Is assert so much faster/cheaper than try...except...raise?
-- 
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Thu Mar 11 17:09:29 2021
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 14:09:29 -0800
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
 <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>

On 3/11/21 1:45 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:

> Is assert so much faster/cheaper than try...except...raise?

Infinitely faster when they are not there.  ;-)

Basically, you are looking at two different philosophies:

- Always double check, get good error message when something fails

vs

- check during testing and QA, turn off double-checks for production for best performance possible.

--
~Ethan~

From rosuav at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 17:27:27 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 09:27:27 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
 <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>
 <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqLAoihw95tQEZSWAe=KENYQHvraVp2ooG852Yh1hq7Jg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:10 AM Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>
> On 3/11/21 1:45 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:
>
> > Is assert so much faster/cheaper than try...except...raise?
>
> Infinitely faster when they are not there.  ;-)
>
> Basically, you are looking at two different philosophies:
>
> - Always double check, get good error message when something fails
>
> vs
>
> - check during testing and QA, turn off double-checks for production for best performance possible.
>

There are many hybrids available too though. For instance:

if __debug__ or args.verify:
    def verify(thing):
        ...
        raise Whatever
else:
    def verify(thing): pass

Yes, you pay the price of a function call even if you're not verifying
the full structural integrity. But that's a lot cheaper than the full
check.

Advantage here is that you can use -O to suppress, or you can control
it with an arg, or whatever.

If you're doing the same check in lots of places, and it's costly,
assertions aren't really a great fit.

ChrisA

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Mar 11 18:16:12 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:16:12 +1300
Subject: Friday Finking: following, weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <s1islf$15d4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <YDrhHOK5OiG/R04S@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.234.1614471464.14271.python-list@python.org>
 <ia3da7Fu7b3U1@mid.individual.net> <s1islf$15d4$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <e5b01131-f3a4-2d92-9cd4-8f507832eceb@DancesWithMice.info>

The in-person version of 'Friday Finking' has been set-aside by
COVID-precautions. Here's hoping the questions asked below will
stimulate some thinking, or mild entertainment...


On 02/03/2021 03.10, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-03-01, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing at canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>> On 28/02/21 1:17 pm, Cameron Simpson wrote:
>>> [its length in bytes] is presented via the object's __len__ method,
>>
>>> BUT... It also has a __iter__ value, which like any Box iterates over
>>> the subboxes.
>>
>> You're misusing __len__ here. If an object is iterable and
>> also has a __len__, its __len__ should return the number of
>> items you would get if you iterated over it. Anything else
>> is confusing and can lead to trouble, as you found here.
> 
> That was certainly my reaction. Can you imagine the confusion if len()
> of a list returned the number of bytes required for srorage insttead
> of the number of elements?


Why?

Isn't one of the 'fun' things about modern* languages is the
"over-loading" of operators/operations?

* ie newer than FORTRAN-IV or COBOL (or my grey hair)


Thus we have:

2 + 3    # int( 5 )

and

"2" + "3"    # "23"

...and we are quite comfortable with the dissonant 'sameness' and
'difference'.

If we can "over-load" __add__(), why not __len__()?


That said, it is confusing: what does len() mean? Are we talking about
the number of elements in a collection, or something else?

What do the docs say?

https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#len talks of "the
length (the number of items) of an object". In the OP, what are the
"items" in this object/"subbox"?

https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html covers
object.__len__(self) saying "Called to implement the built-in function
len(). Should return the length of the object, an integer >= 0." without
actually determining what "length of the object" may actually mean in
any or every context.


Here's another example/application:

If we were playing with our own custom-class to work with vectors,
should __len__() be coded to report (through len()) the number of
dimensions considered in the vector:

v = Vector( 1, 2, 3, 4 )
len( v )    # 4

...or should "len" stand for the "magnitude" of the vector, ie a
distance of 5.5 (rounded)?


Horses for courses?

In the case of (Unicode) strings len() reports in characters, yet lists
are sized in numbers of elements, etc. Each according to what we might
call the 'unit' which should be counted.

The implicit 'confusion' (and flexibility) of over-loading precedes (and
to a degree, causes) "imagine the confusion if len() of a list returned
the number of bytes required".

That said, shouldn't we agreeing with the statement? Should one (sort
of) class/file-structure demand that all other custom-, library-, and
'built-in'-classes report in bytes?

(but is that being proposed/demanded?)


The lengths of files are reported by the computer's
ls-command/file-manager in [M/K]-bytes!

This subject matter is a binary file/container format (MP4). Am working
on a similar container format at the moment, where the length of
sub-components may be reported in bytes (if not delineated by 'markers').

So, there are many reasons why "bytes" is a 'good' measure of length -
in this context.

Is it "misusing __len__" in a class/object designed to manipulate such
files? Hope not!
(or I'm 'in trouble' - again...)
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Thu Mar 11 18:53:26 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 12:53:26 +1300
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqLAoihw95tQEZSWAe=KENYQHvraVp2ooG852Yh1hq7Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
 <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>
 <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPTjJmqLAoihw95tQEZSWAe=KENYQHvraVp2ooG852Yh1hq7Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>



On 12/03/2021 11.27, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:10 AM Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>
>> On 3/11/21 1:45 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:
>>
>>> Is assert so much faster/cheaper than try...except...raise?
>>
>> Infinitely faster when they are not there.  ;-)
>>
>> Basically, you are looking at two different philosophies:
>>
>> - Always double check, get good error message when something fails
>>
>> vs
>>
>> - check during testing and QA, turn off double-checks for production for best performance possible.
>>
> 
> There are many hybrids available too though. For instance:
> 
> if __debug__ or args.verify:
>     def verify(thing):
>         ...
>         raise Whatever
> else:
>     def verify(thing): pass
> 
> Yes, you pay the price of a function call even if you're not verifying
> the full structural integrity. But that's a lot cheaper than the full
> check.
> 
> Advantage here is that you can use -O to suppress, or you can control
> it with an arg, or whatever.
> 
> If you're doing the same check in lots of places, and it's costly,
> assertions aren't really a great fit.

Perhaps I misunderstood (and haven't gone back to check - mea culpa),
but the impression-gained was that -O many not be used, even "in
production", for some reason?

Perhaps because I've not come from a language where assert played any/a
major r?le, but am still hoping for some discussion/understanding as to
why/when assert might be better than try...except in every/particular
situations...
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From nospam at please.ty  Thu Mar 11 21:15:25 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 03:15:25 +0100
Subject: Compare word to word files
References: <aa2bc5be-77bf-4f2b-8102-a79b904e1dfcn@googlegroups.com>
 <s2cfjq$1o9m$1@gioia.aioe.org> <dhck4g9s0km868pmibpnbgr66o8jlum4st@4ax.com>
 <mailman.85.1615477929.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s2eirp$cit$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 11/03/2021 16:08, Dennis Lee Bieber ha scritto:
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 08:07:40 +0100, jak <nospam at please.ty> declaimed the
> following:
> 
>> Il 11/03/2021 05:28, CLYMATIC GAMING ha scritto:
>>> Hello ,
>>> I want to compare word to word files
>>> please he me!
>>>
>> copy and paset this string onto
>> Google page:
>>
>> how to find difference between 2 files in Python
>>
>> ...and press "Google Search" button.
> 
> 	Presuming the OP means plain text files and not M$ Word documents.
> 
> 

If the search engine results do not satisfy him, he will change the
search string. Optionally, you can prepare for him a list of search
strings for all cases, who knows, maybe he means word as two bytes at
time.

From cs at cskk.id.au  Thu Mar 11 23:52:15 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:52:15 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>

On 12Mar2021 12:53, DL Neil <PythonList at DancesWithMice.info> wrote:
>On 12/03/2021 11.27, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 9:10 AM Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
>>> On 3/11/21 1:45 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:
>>>> Is assert so much faster/cheaper than try...except...raise?
>>>
>>> Infinitely faster when they are not there.  ;-)
[...]
>> There are many hybrids available too though. For instance:
>>
>> if __debug__ or args.verify:
>>     def verify(thing):
>>         ...
>>         raise Whatever
>> else:
>>     def verify(thing): pass
>>
>> Yes, you pay the price of a function call even if you're not verifying
>> the full structural integrity. But that's a lot cheaper than the full
>> check.
>>
>> Advantage here is that you can use -O to suppress, or you can control
>> it with an arg, or whatever.
>>
>> If you're doing the same check in lots of places, and it's costly,
>> assertions aren't really a great fit.
>
>Perhaps I misunderstood (and haven't gone back to check - mea culpa),
>but the impression-gained was that -O many not be used, even "in
>production", for some reason?

News to me. Perhaps that was someone's scenario.

To me, asserts have 2 primary features: (a) they're easy to write (and 
read) versus "if some_test: raise SomeException("blah blah...")" and (b) 
they are outright _absent_ from the code when run with -O.

_Provided_ the code called from the assert has no side effects, dropping 
the asserts should always make for identical -O behaviour vs no -O.

Chris' example above walks the middle ground providing something richer 
that a plain assert while still (almost) vanishing with -O (and no 
args.verify mode switch).

>Perhaps because I've not come from a language where assert played any/a
>major r?le, but am still hoping for some discussion/understanding as to
>why/when assert might be better than try...except in every/particular
>situations...

I find assert visually low impact. Try/except is quite wordy and brings 
more indentation.

One has to keep in mind the use case.

For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in 
normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which 
should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching 
misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 00:31:09 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:31:09 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.

Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
somewhere :)

ChrisA

From miked at dewhirst.com.au  Fri Mar 12 00:53:10 2021
From: miked at dewhirst.com.au (Mike Dewhirst)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:53:10 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b8ff7ee-084c-a9bf-e968-c4580ef5757f@dewhirst.com.au>

On 12/03/2021 4:31 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
>> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
>> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
>> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.
> Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
> this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
> trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
> with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
> the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
> anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
> somewhere :)

I haven't been following this thread so please forgive me if this has 
been said ...

My understanding of the reason for assert is to support the "design by 
contract" programming style of Eiffel as espoused by Bertrand Meyer. I 
don't suppose it makes much difference whether it is a function or a 
callable for that - and when I first saw it I was appropriately confused 
- but I only ever used it when I was absolutely certain the assertion 
was bullet-proof. And it is a long time since I did that. I prefer 
try-except nowadays.

Mike

>
> ChrisA


-- 
Signed email is an absolute defence against phishing. This email has
been signed with my private key. If you import my public key you can
automatically decrypt my signature and be sure it came from me. Just
ask and I'll send it to you. Your email software can handle signing.

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From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 01:20:19 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:20:19 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <5b8ff7ee-084c-a9bf-e968-c4580ef5757f@dewhirst.com.au>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <5b8ff7ee-084c-a9bf-e968-c4580ef5757f@dewhirst.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq+=wmJw1d=NJ-kBdO-Acrf8BsmDa386Q78u3hcVMXE7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 5:03 PM Mike Dewhirst <miked at dewhirst.com.au> wrote:
>
> On 12/03/2021 4:31 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> >> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
> >> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
> >> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
> >> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.
> > Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
> > this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
> > trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
> > with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
> > the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
> > anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
> > somewhere :)
>
> I haven't been following this thread so please forgive me if this has
> been said ...
>
> My understanding of the reason for assert is to support the "design by
> contract" programming style of Eiffel as espoused by Bertrand Meyer. I
> don't suppose it makes much difference whether it is a function or a
> callable for that - and when I first saw it I was appropriately confused
> - but I only ever used it when I was absolutely certain the assertion
> was bullet-proof. And it is a long time since I did that. I prefer
> try-except nowadays.
>

Definitely use something other than assertions for that.

ChrisA

From tjol at tjol.eu  Fri Mar 12 04:41:15 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:41:15 +0100
Subject: yield from () Was: Re: weirdness with list()
In-Reply-To: <YD7R3/bqjmb2RLtj@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CACwCsY659-P9GCR3uHkPpxJPVpctseFXONYUs2OWKMYXarV_kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <YD7R3/bqjmb2RLtj@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <2e10a252-bb7f-f2b9-6245-f722aea1c736@tjol.eu>

On 03/03/2021 01:01, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 02Mar2021 15:06, Larry Martell <larry.martell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I discovered something new (to me) yesterday. Was writing a unit test
>> for generator function and I found that none of the function got
>> executed at all until I iterated on the return value.
> Aye. Generators are lazy - they don't run at all until you ask for a
> value.
>
> By contrast, this is unlike Go's goroutines, which are busy - they
> commence operation as soon as invoked and run until the first yield
> (channel put, I forget how it is spelled now). This can cause excessive
> CPU utilisation, but it handle for _fast_ production of results. Which
> is a primary goal in Go's design.
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

<aside>

I've been learning a bit more JavaScript recently (I know, I know, 
that's no fun) and I think that's the main practical difference between 
JavaScript's async functions, which are scheduled even if nobody awaits 
on them, and Python async functions which are just funky generators and 
therefore scheduled only when somebody awaits their result.

</aside>


From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Fri Mar 12 08:09:42 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:09:42 -0500
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf87a315-5c53-32fb-9dab-c1654ea77097@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/12/21 12:31 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
>> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
>> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
>> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.
> Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
> this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
> trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
> with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
> the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
> anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
> somewhere :)
>
> ChrisA

Chris, I would disagree with that statement. An assert says that there
is something wrong with THE code, not THIS code. It is perfectly
reasonable, and good defensive programming, to assert on the
per-conditions to the procedure at its beginning.

Now, it may be true that a 'friendlier' procedure may be defined to
check some of these and return an error, but that then locks that
behavior into the API, so the cost of the check becomes an absolute
requirement.

In langauges like C, the assert for this may be more important because
the language provides more opportunity for 'undefined behavior'.

It is reasonable to skip the input assert if it becomes too expensive
for benefit it provides, or if something else will catch the error. This
likely actually applies to a lot of Python code, so it may seem that it
doesn't apply.

-- 
Richard Damon


From mystirk at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 08:32:47 2021
From: mystirk at gmail.com (Alex Kaye)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 06:32:47 -0700
Subject: << robot control >>
Message-ID: <CA+M9+8VfZabgZ+tmsa7BDP0EdqOU0_gNiBe+A4B=AAWfyrYWiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I am looking for a package or module that

would use my Rasberry Pi 3 wirelessly to control a

land vehicle or someone to consult with to

discuss some of my options. Maybe with joystick commands.


Alex

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 08:58:38 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 00:58:38 +1100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <bf87a315-5c53-32fb-9dab-c1654ea77097@Damon-Family.org>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf87a315-5c53-32fb-9dab-c1654ea77097@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpXrj+A=ozPezD_vtO4eYtKrz5mthmLY_f9AOg-U0=9GQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 12:11 AM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/12/21 12:31 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> >> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
> >> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
> >> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
> >> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.
> > Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
> > this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
> > trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
> > with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
> > the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
> > anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
> > somewhere :)
> >
> > ChrisA
>
> Chris, I would disagree with that statement. An assert says that there
> is something wrong with THE code, not THIS code. It is perfectly
> reasonable, and good defensive programming, to assert on the
> per-conditions to the procedure at its beginning.
>
> Now, it may be true that a 'friendlier' procedure may be defined to
> check some of these and return an error, but that then locks that
> behavior into the API, so the cost of the check becomes an absolute
> requirement.
>

It's perfectly reasonable to put "if condition: raise Blah", but is it
really reasonable to use the assert statement, which (a) might not be
run, and (b) raises a very generic exception? Make assertions about
your own code, not other people's.

ChrisA

From Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 11:13:19 2021
From: Marco.Sulla.Python at gmail.com (Marco Sulla)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:13:19 +0100
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAPTjJmr_axqWDgbL358kEcSMre6Yw4uK3typLKf+qbkcc9ukVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <YEqLEjH2HymlbuXr@cskk.homeip.net>
 <7460751a-099d-b0e1-d5ff-eeac5d354f60@DancesWithMice.info>
 <209ed7f9-44aa-6315-9f1e-08e6465a5303@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CABbU2U_MPAwvJPA2E-jtUbi40g8BDQEOrCku+nQWL8kBTrMjVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 11 Mar 2021 at 23:11, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> Basically, you are looking at two different philosophies:
>
> - Always double check, get good error message when something fails
>
> vs
>
> - check during testing and QA, turn off double-checks for production for best performance possible.

In a perfect world, I said the second option is the best. But for the
majority of projects I contributed, speed was not a critical issue. On
the contrary, it's very hard to get meaningful informations about
problems in production, so I'm in favour of the first school :)

From info at cmcc.it  Fri Mar 12 11:03:35 2021
From: info at cmcc.it (info cmcc)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:03:35 +0100
Subject: Scientific Software Developer | Job position at CMCC Foundation, Italy
In-Reply-To: <CA+-poFL+RvZtmb=Soq_2qZH3UjN80V93LnOkEs8ukFjvjBni+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+-poFL+RvZtmb=Soq_2qZH3UjN80V93LnOkEs8ukFjvjBni+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+-poFKUkU56GVPkT2EC_XPOtJKsax+wGyDLww2cJNQk3Q3GmQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Please, feel free to circulate *
*to anyone you think may be interested.**---*

*Scientific Software Developer (code 12305)*
<https://cmccfoundation.applytojob.com/apply/L0Zntdu4Je/12305-Scientific-Software-Developer>

*Deadline: April 4th, 2021*

The CMCC is taking into consideration the possibility to hire a talented,
motivated and proactive Scientific Software Developer.
This job announcement is a public invitation to express interest for the
above mentioned CMCC Position.

The location is CMCC Headquarters in Lecce, Italy. Remote working is
considered as an option.

The main responsibility for this position is the design and development of
Python-based scientific tools and applications for climate data management
and analysis. Other duties will be related to the deployment using
container technologies (Docker, Kubernetes) and the engagement and
contribution to open source software communities.

The minimum qualifications are:

   - M.Sc. degree in Computer Science or Computer Engineering or equivalent
   fields;
   - 2+ years experience in scientific software development;
   - Excellent knowledge of Python programming languages;
   - Good knowledge of Python scientific libraries (numpy, scipy,pandas);
   - Excellent knowledge of Git;
   - Good knowledge of container technologies (Docker, Kubernetes);
   - Good working experience with Linux/Mac OS environments;
   - Good knowledge of both written and spoken English language.

Additional preferred experience:

   - Good knowledge of NETCDF/GRIB data formats and corresponding tools
   (NCO, CDO), and Python libraries (xarray, iris);
   - Experience with Jupyter notebooks;
   - Knowledge of Go programming languages;
   - Knowledge of databases ? PostgreSQL, TimescaleDB.

Belonging to legally protected categories (ex L. 68/99) will constitute a
preferential condition.

The initial appointment is for n? 12 months starting from May 2021 at an
annual salary ranging from 22K to 34K Euros, comprehensive of benefits,
depending on qualification and experience.

*APPLY
NOW: https://cmccfoundation.applytojob.com/apply/L0Zntdu4Je/12305-Scientific-Software-Developer
<https://cmccfoundation.applytojob.com/apply/L0Zntdu4Je/12305-Scientific-Software-Developer>*

-- 

Fondazione CMCCCentro Euro-Mediterraneo sui Cambiamenti Climatici
Via Augusto Imperatore, 16 - 73100 Lecce
info at cmcc.it - www.cmcc.it

From saipremkumar246 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 12:52:33 2021
From: saipremkumar246 at gmail.com (Premmy)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:52:33 +0000
Subject: Uninstall error
Message-ID: <CALzs4Sa6ArnKz0Xn8gviAP-dSViRS9X35Y+iMq3NbR-A4PWkRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi. I am trying to uninstall python on my computer because i found a better
one but its not getting deleted from control panel. can you please help me

-- 
Regards,
N.V.S. Prem Kumar
Mobile: 07502069339

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 17:27:36 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:27:36 -0500
Subject: pygame "font not intialized"
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=g_fK79EeApY5BY1R7_yaieK7n+CNPQvp5G64s-5ONezg@mail.gmail.com>

my code is almost identical to this so I hope it's okay that I don't
include all of my code
error message:
font = pygame.font.Font('freesansbold.ttf', 32)
pygame.error: font not initialized

Tutorial Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w
Timestamp to this part of the video:  1:55:08

From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Fri Mar 12 17:41:49 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 14:41:49 -0800
Subject: pygame "font not intialized"
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=g_fK79EeApY5BY1R7_yaieK7n+CNPQvp5G64s-5ONezg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=g_fK79EeApY5BY1R7_yaieK7n+CNPQvp5G64s-5ONezg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YEvuLQFtYKoRUf9D@scrozzle>

On 2021-03-12 at 17:27:36 -0500,
Quentin Bock <qberz2005 at gmail.com> wrote:

> my code is almost identical to this so I hope it's okay that I don't
> include all of my code
> error message:
> font = pygame.font.Font('freesansbold.ttf', 32)
> pygame.error: font not initialized
> 
> Tutorial Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfWpgLFMI7w
> Timestamp to this part of the video:  1:55:08

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pygame.error%3A+font+not+initialized

See also <http://www.sscce.org/>.

From sjeik_appie at hotmail.com  Sat Mar 13 09:47:08 2021
From: sjeik_appie at hotmail.com (Albert-Jan Roskam)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 15:47:08 +0100
Subject: Packaging/MANIFEST.in: Incude All, Exclude .gitignore
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXX=zcMbvSwf6qp-P0U7uukFS-mB=YYw=2O6ZgCcd8bJWrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB6PR01MB38959B7B485C14E3CF2C28C6836E9@DB6PR01MB3895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

   you could call a simple bash script in a git hook that syncs your
   MANIFEST.in with your .gitignore. Something like:
   echo -n "exclude " > MANIFEST.in
   cat .gitignore | tr '\n' ' ' >> MANIFEST.in
   echo "graft $(readlink -f ./keep/this)" >> MANIFEST.in
   https://docs.python.org/2/distutils/sourcedist.html#commands
   On 1 Mar 2021 06:05, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python at gmail.com>
   wrote:

     Greetings list,

     SInce i have a .gitignore, how do i exclude
     all files and folders listed by my gitignore?
     How do i include everything by default?

     Kind Regards,

     Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
     about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
     <https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
     github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
     Mauritius
     --
     https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 13 10:20:59 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 10:20:59 -0500
Subject: pygame font issue
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=hJyBbfJ4N+0J8DhMQ4ZEXjb0_1iEoaVZ95dc=wn7RU=Q@mail.gmail.com>

Code that contains the problem:

score_value = 0
font = pygame.font.SysFont('freesansbold.ttf', 32)

error:
in font_constructor  font = Font(fontpath, size)
pygame.error: font not initialized
Can someone explain why it's saying font not initialized and provide a
solution?
I have tried typing in the direct file path of the font but that didn't
work, nor did using SysFont

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Mar 13 11:11:47 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:11:47 +0000
Subject: pygame font issue
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=hJyBbfJ4N+0J8DhMQ4ZEXjb0_1iEoaVZ95dc=wn7RU=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hJyBbfJ4N+0J8DhMQ4ZEXjb0_1iEoaVZ95dc=wn7RU=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <261c92b1-39c2-ef56-832c-4757bbe0b91d@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-13 15:20, Quentin Bock wrote:
> Code that contains the problem:
> 
> score_value = 0
> font = pygame.font.SysFont('freesansbold.ttf', 32)
> 
> error:
> in font_constructor  font = Font(fontpath, size)
> pygame.error: font not initialized
> Can someone explain why it's saying font not initialized and provide a
> solution?
> I have tried typing in the direct file path of the font but that didn't
> work, nor did using SysFont
> 
In your previous post you said that your code was "almost identical" to 
what was in the tutorial, so the problem is probably in the difference. 
You haven't provided enough detail (code) for any of us to identify the 
problem.

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 13 02:39:39 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 02:39:39 -0500
Subject: IDLE python
In-Reply-To: <4DxCX34Ct4zpDx9@mail.python.org>
References: <4DxCX34Ct4zpDx9@mail.python.org>
Message-ID: <s2hq7t$sb4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/11/2021 10:28 AM, Yoosuf Oluwatosin via Python-list wrote:
> 
> I have tried to startup my IDLE python severally but it keeps giving the following message:
> IDLE?s  subprocess didn?t make connection. See the ?Startup Failure? section of the IDLE doc online at https://docs.python.org/3/library/idle.html#startup-failure.
> I have gone to the page and followed all the procedures listed there but there is still no change. 

Did you try starting from a command line?

I need help on this.

I included in that page every reason and remedy I knew or could find on 
stackoverflow.  But what OS and Python version?  How did you try to 
start IDLE?  What happens with "python -m idlelib -e" on a command line 
(where 'python' is the word to start 3.x)?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy



From pkpearson at nowhere.invalid  Sat Mar 13 11:54:18 2021
From: pkpearson at nowhere.invalid (Peter Pearson)
Date: 13 Mar 2021 16:54:18 GMT
Subject: Uninstall error
References: <CALzs4Sa6ArnKz0Xn8gviAP-dSViRS9X35Y+iMq3NbR-A4PWkRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.110.1615575107.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ib491qFemoiU1@mid.individual.net>

On Fri, 12 Mar 2021 17:52:33 +0000, Premmy <saipremkumar246 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi. I am trying to uninstall python on my computer because i found a better
> one but its not getting deleted from control panel. can you please help me

Windows?  Apple?  Linux?

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->runbox, invalid->com.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sat Mar 13 16:02:58 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 16:02:58 -0500
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpXrj+A=ozPezD_vtO4eYtKrz5mthmLY_f9AOg-U0=9GQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf87a315-5c53-32fb-9dab-c1654ea77097@Damon-Family.org>
 <CAPTjJmpXrj+A=ozPezD_vtO4eYtKrz5mthmLY_f9AOg-U0=9GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2d7d1e1-85a7-d59b-1f36-9c830649a017@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/12/21 8:58 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 12:11 AM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org> wrote:
>> On 3/12/21 12:31 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 3:53 PM Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>>>> For me, try/except is for when something might reasonably "go wrong" in
>>>> normal use, even niche normal use. Whereas assert is for things which
>>>> should _never_ occur. Roughly, again for me, try/except if for catching
>>>> misuse and assert is for catching misdesign/misimplementation.
>>> Something like that, yeah. An assertion failure represents a bug *in
>>> this code*, something that shouldn't ever happen. If it's possible to
>>> trigger the failure with some other piece of code (calling something
>>> with bad arguments, or whatever), then assert is the wrong tool for
>>> the job. Similarly, if you find yourself catching AssertionError
>>> anywhere outside of unit testing, something is horribly wrong
>>> somewhere :)
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>> Chris, I would disagree with that statement. An assert says that there
>> is something wrong with THE code, not THIS code. It is perfectly
>> reasonable, and good defensive programming, to assert on the
>> per-conditions to the procedure at its beginning.
>>
>> Now, it may be true that a 'friendlier' procedure may be defined to
>> check some of these and return an error, but that then locks that
>> behavior into the API, so the cost of the check becomes an absolute
>> requirement.
>>
> It's perfectly reasonable to put "if condition: raise Blah", but is it
> really reasonable to use the assert statement, which (a) might not be
> run, and (b) raises a very generic exception? Make assertions about
> your own code, not other people's.
>
> ChrisA

My issue with that is that I feel that if the program raises an
exception, if SHOULD document what exceptions it raises and under what
conditions. That means that the detection of bad parameters has now been
moved from being an 'improper' use of the module, to being defined to be
checked for, and thus now a required part of the API.

Exceptions are designed for errors that might be correctable by outer
layers, program errors that you catch with assert tend not to fall into
that category.

Asserts indicate that there is a programming error that has been
detected, and the operation should be aborted. The exception generated
will not be used to 'correct' the error, but might reformat the assert
message and facilitate its reporting, or for an interactive program,
perhaps provide a path for the user to save his work or work around the
program bug.

The are conceptually very different sorts of things, and should not be
interchanged.

Note, it is often hard to tell if the 'impossible' state you ended up in
is truly a fault with your own code or the code that is calling you, so
often the detecting of bad parameters is really akin to detecting your
routine has gotten into a state it should not be in, the only difference
is you have detected this before you have done anything, and thus help
locate where the bug is.

-- 
Richard Damon


From Irv at furrypants.com  Sat Mar 13 17:33:47 2021
From: Irv at furrypants.com (Irv Kalb)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 14:33:47 -0800
Subject: pygame font issue
In-Reply-To: <261c92b1-39c2-ef56-832c-4757bbe0b91d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hJyBbfJ4N+0J8DhMQ4ZEXjb0_1iEoaVZ95dc=wn7RU=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <261c92b1-39c2-ef56-832c-4757bbe0b91d@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <1C6F970F-84DF-420D-8901-1AB55CF72FFB@furrypants.com>

You need to initialize the font system with this line before you attempt to load a font:

        pygame.font.init()

Irv

> On Mar 13, 2021, at 8:11 AM, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2021-03-13 15:20, Quentin Bock wrote:
>> Code that contains the problem:
>> score_value = 0
>> font = pygame.font.SysFont('freesansbold.ttf', 32)
>> error:
>> in font_constructor  font = Font(fontpath, size)
>> pygame.error: font not initialized
>> Can someone explain why it's saying font not initialized and provide a
>> solution?
>> I have tried typing in the direct file path of the font but that didn't
>> work, nor did using SysFont
> In your previous post you said that your code was "almost identical" to what was in the tutorial, so the problem is probably in the difference. You haven't provided enough detail (code) for any of us to identify the problem.
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From mats at wichmann.us  Sat Mar 13 20:16:09 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 18:16:09 -0700
Subject: Uninstall error
In-Reply-To: <CALzs4Sa6ArnKz0Xn8gviAP-dSViRS9X35Y+iMq3NbR-A4PWkRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALzs4Sa6ArnKz0Xn8gviAP-dSViRS9X35Y+iMq3NbR-A4PWkRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <db8576f8-c239-bdf8-8a1d-d27a91723188@wichmann.us>

On 3/12/21 10:52 AM, Premmy wrote:
> Hi. I am trying to uninstall python on my computer because i found a better
> one but its not getting deleted from control panel. can you please help me

As already noted, it's really important to learn to give good details 
when asking for help, people who are going to respond to you aren't in 
your head, they don't know what you know and what has happened. Knowing 
the right level of detail to give isn't actually easy, you can give too 
little or too much and either way it will confuse folks.

Personally, I don't know of any place where Python goes into a "control 
panel".  ???

If you're on Windows, there are tools... search for this pattern: "Fix 
problems that block programs from being installed or removed", it 
directs you to an official fixit that cleans up the installer state, and 
if it can't spot a problem itself, lets you give it the name of the 
thing you want to nuke. On WIndows, it's usually a problem with the 
state of the installation system, not with Python itself.

"because I found a better one"  ... what does that mean? We have no idea.


From haroldo.stenger at gmail.com  Sun Mar 14 03:21:59 2021
From: haroldo.stenger at gmail.com (Haroldo Stenger)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 23:21:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace
Message-ID: <82c881c4-0590-4ce0-8ccd-e7224a21c7e5n@googlegroups.com>

hi, I'm using the new PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace feature in python 3.9.2. After breakpoint() is reached, the telnet server is enabled and I can connect to the debugger. Then f.i. I do 'cont' for resuming execution, and when the breakpoint() is reached again, the telnet session is stalled. I telnet again, and then I can type debug commands again, and the former telnet session is closed. After a 'cont' the same repeats. Is that how it is meant to work ? What am I missing or getting wrong? Any help is highly appreciated

ps. I now understand that under the PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace , the interpreter will set a different telnet server when breakpoint() is reached. That's propably not what one wants under normal functioning. But then, how does one set a new breakpoint without interrupting the debugging session flow?

thanks a lot

Haroldo

From haroldo.stenger at gmail.com  Sun Mar 14 03:57:03 2021
From: haroldo.stenger at gmail.com (Haroldo Stenger)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2021 23:57:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace
In-Reply-To: <82c881c4-0590-4ce0-8ccd-e7224a21c7e5n@googlegroups.com>
References: <82c881c4-0590-4ce0-8ccd-e7224a21c7e5n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <51cf64c4-ec32-461d-944f-4ac256239615n@googlegroups.com>

hi again 

Now I've found about "RemotePDB Client", which reconnects aturomatically. That helps. Alas, I've seen taht typing 'cont' or 'continue' stalls the session. But Typing just 'c' works. Just to mention since haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

best

Haroldo



El Sunday, March 14, 2021 a la(s) 4:22:10 AM UTC-3, Haroldo Stenger escribi?:
> hi, I'm using the new PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace feature in python 3.9.2. After breakpoint() is reached, the telnet server is enabled and I can connect to the debugger. Then f.i. I do 'cont' for resuming execution, and when the breakpoint() is reached again, the telnet session is stalled. I telnet again, and then I can type debug commands again, and the former telnet session is closed. After a 'cont' the same repeats. Is that how it is meant to work ? What am I missing or getting wrong? Any help is highly appreciated 
> 
> ps. I now understand that under the PYTHONBREAKPOINT=remote_pdb.set_trace , the interpreter will set a different telnet server when breakpoint() is reached. That's propably not what one wants under normal functioning. But then, how does one set a new breakpoint without interrupting the debugging session flow? 
> 
> thanks a lot 
> 
> Haroldo

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 14 14:44:57 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2021 14:44:57 -0400
Subject: file location/directory
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=hnZEYK-a-awZFVk3SiW2o55H55d2o_EwZR_=h1qM66nA@mail.gmail.com>

how can I change the path that python takes to run certain files, I'm
starting to create game and I want those in separate folders, so how can I
change it so that python runs the program with the files from that folder?

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Mar 14 17:45:04 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 10:45:04 +1300
Subject: file location/directory
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=hnZEYK-a-awZFVk3SiW2o55H55d2o_EwZR_=h1qM66nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=hnZEYK-a-awZFVk3SiW2o55H55d2o_EwZR_=h1qM66nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8c754bb1-ffa8-75be-a18d-699a37e57a0f@DancesWithMice.info>

On 15/03/2021 07.44, Quentin Bock wrote:
> how can I change the path that python takes to run certain files, I'm
> starting to create game and I want those in separate folders, so how can I
> change it so that python runs the program with the files from that folder?


Perhaps I'm confused:
a) are we talking about multiple Python program[me]s, or
b) multiple data-files which will be accessed by the same code?

a) Python will set the current directory according to where/how it is
started from the command-line.

b) consider that a file is addressed by more than just its name. Let's
over-simplify and talk about it having a "file-name", and having a
location which is described by a "path". Python will happily choose a
file based upon its "file-name" only - which implies that it is located
in the "current working directory"; or you can use both components, eg

open( os.path.join( path, file_name )...

So, now by setting the "path" according to "that folder", and adding the
requisite file-name(s), will that answer the need?

Remember that a path may be "absolute" or "relative", according to need.
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:16:45 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 15 Mar 2021 08:16:45 GMT
Subject: Why assert is not a function?
References: <15664b43-1783-b6e1-a425-cc845e2d9d61@DancesWithMice.info>
 <YErzfy1jwDbV23Rj@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CAPTjJmoQvTFzzH9U35yAzZGwjdDw2fz2GDi0oHBBqp3K9QMZ8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf87a315-5c53-32fb-9dab-c1654ea77097@Damon-Family.org>
 <CAPTjJmpXrj+A=ozPezD_vtO4eYtKrz5mthmLY_f9AOg-U0=9GQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.107.1615557532.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ib8jfdF9tfuU1@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico (and oters) wrote:

[interesting stuff]

I'm a late contributor here, but I'd just say: If you'd prefer a function for
assert, just define a function that does what you want and be done with it.
Much harder to do if assert() were a built-in function but you'd rather have a
keyword ;-)

robert

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 04:47:54 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 15 Mar 2021 08:47:54 GMT
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>
 <mailman.16.1615148165.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iam8bbFlf79U1@mid.individual.net>
 <bfe3cdaf-14de-f84e-1cac-ddea019593d7@Damon-Family.org>
 <mailman.27.1615211928.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ib8l9qF9tfuU2@mid.individual.net>

Richard Damon wrote:
> On 3/8/21 4:16 AM, Robert Latest via Python-list wrote:
>> Joseph L. Casale wrote:
>>>> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library
>>>> that doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that
>>>> done?
>>> That's not how it works, it is the opposite. You need to know the name of
>>> its logger, and since you imported it, you do.
>> [much snipping]
>>
>>> Last word of advice, don't fight it by hacking up or patching (somehow?),
>>> it will simply not work right for any other case even slightly different
>>> than the one you somehow beat into submission.
>> I didn't waht to hack the logging system, it's just that I wasn't sure of
>> its design principles. I had hoped that if I set up a logger (including
>> levels and formatter) in my main app, the loggers in the imported modules
>> would somwhow automagically follow suit. Now I understand that for each
>> imported module I must import its logger, too, and decide how to deal with
>> its messages.
>>
>>
> Each instance of the logger inherents from a 'parent' logger, except for the
> top level logger which has the name None (as in the singleton of NoneType),
> and unless told otherwise will inherit it properties from its parent.
>
> Thus, if you get the root logger with logging.getLogger() you can set
> properties there, and unless a child logger has specifical been told not to
> inherit or has been specifically given a different value.
>
> General convention is that modules will use their name as the name of their
> logger, as that is generally unique.
>

I must admit I'm still struggling with the very basics of logging. I don't
understand the behavior of the code samples below at all, see comments.
It seems that logging.debug() et al have some side effects that are required
to get a logger to notice its level in the first place.


# Example 1:
# Why does the logger "mylog" require
# a call to the root logger in order to work?

import logging

mylog = logging.getLogger('foo')
mylog.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)

mylog.debug('1 mylog.debug()')   # prints nothing
logging.debug('2 logging.debug()') # prints nothing
mylog.debug('3 mylog.debug()')   # works


# Example 2:
# Why do I have to call 'logging.debug' before the root
# logger works?

import logging

mylog = logging.getLogger() # now mylog is the root logger
mylog.setLevel(logging.DEBUG) # setting level of root logger

mylog.debug('1 mylog.debug()')   # prints nothing, why?
logging.debug('2 logging.debug()') # works
mylog.debug('3 mylog.debug()')   # works


From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 15 05:35:51 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 15 Mar 2021 09:35:51 GMT
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ib8o3nFaihlU1@mid.individual.net>

D.M. Procida wrote:
> Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
> a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.

[...]

> The Canonet G-III QL17 is one of my favourites. One of my reasons for
> writing this code is to appreciate the intricate mechanical logic
> embodied in the machine.

I love both photography with mechanical camears (The Nikon FE2 being my
favorite) and programming. So I absolutely love your project. Also I think its
totally nuts. I won't spend a second looking at your code or get otherwise
involved, but I wish you best of luck!

robert

From __peter__ at web.de  Mon Mar 15 05:46:06 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 10:46:06 +0100
Subject: How to implement logging for an imported module?
In-Reply-To: <ib8l9qF9tfuU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <iajnoqF6fv9U1@mid.individual.net>
 <472f5a7c02b3428392f6981e954c56e3@activenetwerx.com>
 <mailman.16.1615148165.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iam8bbFlf79U1@mid.individual.net>
 <bfe3cdaf-14de-f84e-1cac-ddea019593d7@Damon-Family.org>
 <mailman.27.1615211928.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ib8l9qF9tfuU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <da94dccf-1852-ada6-dc37-6e4d1ca198e8@web.de>

On 15/03/2021 09:47, Robert Latest via Python-list wrote:
> Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 3/8/21 4:16 AM, Robert Latest via Python-list wrote:
>>> Joseph L. Casale wrote:
>>>>> I couldn't find any information on how to implement logging in a library
>>>>> that doesn't know the name of the application that uses it. How is that
>>>>> done?
>>>> That's not how it works, it is the opposite. You need to know the name of
>>>> its logger, and since you imported it, you do.
>>> [much snipping]
>>>
>>>> Last word of advice, don't fight it by hacking up or patching (somehow?),
>>>> it will simply not work right for any other case even slightly different
>>>> than the one you somehow beat into submission.
>>> I didn't waht to hack the logging system, it's just that I wasn't sure of
>>> its design principles. I had hoped that if I set up a logger (including
>>> levels and formatter) in my main app, the loggers in the imported modules
>>> would somwhow automagically follow suit. Now I understand that for each
>>> imported module I must import its logger, too, and decide how to deal with
>>> its messages.
>>>
>>>
>> Each instance of the logger inherents from a 'parent' logger, except for the
>> top level logger which has the name None (as in the singleton of NoneType),
>> and unless told otherwise will inherit it properties from its parent.
>>
>> Thus, if you get the root logger with logging.getLogger() you can set
>> properties there, and unless a child logger has specifical been told not to
>> inherit or has been specifically given a different value.
>>
>> General convention is that modules will use their name as the name of their
>> logger, as that is generally unique.
>>
> 
> I must admit I'm still struggling with the very basics of logging. I don't
> understand the behavior of the code samples below at all, see comments.
> It seems that logging.debug() et al have some side effects that are required
> to get a logger to notice its level in the first place.
> 
> 
> # Example 1:
> # Why does the logger "mylog" require
> # a call to the root logger in order to work?

Because logging.debug() implicitly calls basicConfig() if there are no 
handlers yet for the root logger. You should always configure your 
handlers explicitly, usually by a call to logging.basicConfig().

> 
> import logging

# - set the root logger's level
# - add a handler to the root logger
logging.basicConfig(level=logging.DEBUG)

> mylog = logging.getLogger('foo')

In most cases I want the same log-level for all loggers, so I'd omit the 
line below.

> mylog.setLevel(logging.DEBUG)
> 
> mylog.debug('1 mylog.debug()')   # prints nothing
> logging.debug('2 logging.debug()') # prints nothing
> mylog.debug('3 mylog.debug()')   # works
> 
> 
> # Example 2:
> # Why do I have to call 'logging.debug' before the root
> # logger works?
> 
> import logging
> 
> mylog = logging.getLogger() # now mylog is the root logger
> mylog.setLevel(logging.DEBUG) # setting level of root logger
> 
> mylog.debug('1 mylog.debug()')   # prints nothing, why?
> logging.debug('2 logging.debug()') # works
> mylog.debug('3 mylog.debug()')   # works
> 



From robin at reportlab.com  Mon Mar 15 08:11:06 2021
From: robin at reportlab.com (Robin Becker)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 12:11:06 +0000
Subject: new match statement and types
Message-ID: <79563331-21b1-39fc-11b1-9b0aeffdbe54@everest.reportlab.co.uk>

I'm trying out new features in 3.10.0a6 looking at the new match statement I tried it with various cases. Knowing that 
the class of a class is 'type' I tried using match to distinguish between classes and instances so I tried various 
versions of

#######################
class A:
	pass

class B:
	pass

def tmc(C):
	match C:
		case type(__name__='A'):
			print(f'{C} is an A' )
		case type():
			print(f'{C} is a type' )
		case A():
			print(f'{C} is an A instance')
		case _:
			print(f'{C} is an instance')

if __name__=='__main__':
	tmc(A)
	tmc(B)
	tmc(A())
	tmc(B())
#######################

the above seems to work and produces

> <class '__main__.A'> is an A
> <class '__main__.B'> is a type
> <__main__.A object at 0x7fe5a2248fd0> is an A instance
> <__main__.B object at 0x7fe5a2248fd0> is an instance

is this the right approach to this problem of distinguishing instances ?
--
Robin Becker


From invalid at invalid.com  Tue Mar 16 08:23:19 2021
From: invalid at invalid.com (Gys)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 13:23:19 +0100
Subject: How do I read .csv files
In-Reply-To: <s2ffoh$1eh3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <s2ffoh$1eh3$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Message-ID: <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>

On 3/12/21 11:28 AM, Johann Klammer wrote:
> Specifically ones with quoted strings. I'll have whitespace in
> there and possibly escaped quotechars.
> maybe newlines too.
> Which means that pyparsing commaSeparatedList.parseString(line) won't work.
> 
> I also like to edit them for visual alignment, so there'll
> be whitespaces outside the strings(more than one)
> ...therefore, csv.DictReader() won't work.
> 
> I'd like them read into a dict or something..

Hi Johann Klammer,
I use Pandas for handling *.csv files

pandas documentation :

<https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/index.html>

Hands on example :

<https://chrisalbon.com/python/data_wrangling/pandas_dataframe_importing_csv/>

-hth
Gys


From invalid at invalid.com  Tue Mar 16 09:02:33 2021
From: invalid at invalid.com (Gys)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 14:02:33 +0100
Subject: file location/directory
In-Reply-To: <mailman.121.1615747511.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAO9VG=hnZEYK-a-awZFVk3SiW2o55H55d2o_EwZR_=h1qM66nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.121.1615747511.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <J%14I.66078$PPIc.40607@fx15.ams4>

On 3/14/21 7:44 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:
> how can I change the path that python takes to run certain files, I'm
> starting to create game and I want those in separate folders, so how can I
> change it so that python runs the program with the files from that folder?
> 
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Hi Quentin Bock,
this is a very dense subject. The simplest sulution is to create a 
MainFolder with the main module of your game. Then in that folder, 
create a SubFolder where you can store the modules your game wants to 
import.

The alternative is to use the Environment variable $PYTHONPATH

<https://scipher.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/setting-your-pythonpath-environment-variable-linuxunixosx/>

Setting Your PYTHONPATH environment variable (Linux/Unix/OsX)

Open your personal .bashrc file at /home/<YourName>/.bashrc
Note that this is a hidden file
Add these 2 lines :

PYTHONPATH="${PYTHONPATH}:/path/cool/python/package/"
export PYTHONPATH

These checks the settings :

import os
import sys
print(sys.path)
print(os.environ.get('PYTHONPATH', ''))

-hth
Gys

From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Tue Mar 16 09:23:08 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 09:23:08 -0400
Subject: How do I read .csv files
In-Reply-To: <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>
References: <s2ffoh$1eh3$1@gioia.aioe.org> <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>
Message-ID: <C5115368-6E83-4C56-BCF3-9EE31EC148DA@schollnick.net>

The best answer is to use the CSV library, but there are wrappers around it.

For example, I use a wrapper of my own creation (csv_common.py) @ https://github.com/bschollnick/bas_Utilities <https://github.com/bschollnick/bas_Utilities>.
The main benefit is that I can create variant CSV?s by just inheriting and redefining portions of it, very quickly.  

But, Panda?s and other tools are just as valid as well.

But I would really recommend playing with the CSV library first, and understand how it works, before using a wrapper or a totally different tool.  Understanding the basics really simplifies the learning process, and gives you a foundation to build upon.

	- Benjamin

> On Mar 16, 2021, at 8:23 AM, Gys <invalid at invalid.com> wrote:
> 
> On 3/12/21 11:28 AM, Johann Klammer wrote:
>> Specifically ones with quoted strings. I'll have whitespace in
>> there and possibly escaped quotechars.
>> maybe newlines too.
>> Which means that pyparsing commaSeparatedList.parseString(line) won't work.
>> I also like to edit them for visual alignment, so there'll
>> be whitespaces outside the strings(more than one)
>> ...therefore, csv.DictReader() won't work.
>> I'd like them read into a dict or something..
> 
> Hi Johann Klammer,
> I use Pandas for handling *.csv files
> 
> pandas documentation :
> 
> <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/index.html>
> 
> Hands on example :
> 
> <https://chrisalbon.com/python/data_wrangling/pandas_dataframe_importing_csv/>
> 
> -hth
> Gys
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From tanmayshah2007 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 12:15:56 2021
From: tanmayshah2007 at gmail.com (The Cool Life)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 10:15:56 -0600
Subject: How do I read .csv files
In-Reply-To: <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>
References: <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>
Message-ID: <2F1C1FCB-326D-4E41-9D1E-8A2AA983B965@gmail.com>

Try importing the CSV module. That might help!


> On Mar 16, 2021, at 6:27 AM, Gys <invalid at invalid.com> wrote:
> 
> ?On 3/12/21 11:28 AM, Johann Klammer wrote:
>> Specifically ones with quoted strings. I'll have whitespace in
>> there and possibly escaped quotechars.
>> maybe newlines too.
>> Which means that pyparsing commaSeparatedList.parseString(line) won't work.
>> I also like to edit them for visual alignment, so there'll
>> be whitespaces outside the strings(more than one)
>> ...therefore, csv.DictReader() won't work.
>> I'd like them read into a dict or something..
> 
> Hi Johann Klammer,
> I use Pandas for handling *.csv files
> 
> pandas documentation :
> 
> <https://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/index.html>
> 
> Hands on example :
> 
> <https://chrisalbon.com/python/data_wrangling/pandas_dataframe_importing_csv/>
> 
> -hth
> Gys
> 
> -- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 16 16:03:59 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 20:03:59 +0000
Subject: How do I read .csv files
In-Reply-To: <2F1C1FCB-326D-4E41-9D1E-8A2AA983B965@gmail.com>
References: <Xq14I.139242$eove.86158@fx01.ams4>
 <2F1C1FCB-326D-4E41-9D1E-8A2AA983B965@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s2r2vf$8vc$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 16/03/2021 16:15, The Cool Life wrote:
> Try importing the CSV module. That might help!
And for the removal of doubt it is spelled csv 9lower case)

And it looks like you want to read about the DictReader
class within it.

The csv module docs include several examples.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Mar 16 17:26:52 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 10:26:52 +1300
Subject: file location/directory
In-Reply-To: <J%14I.66078$PPIc.40607@fx15.ams4>
References: <CAO9VG=hnZEYK-a-awZFVk3SiW2o55H55d2o_EwZR_=h1qM66nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.121.1615747511.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <J%14I.66078$PPIc.40607@fx15.ams4>
Message-ID: <fa550cf1-fd2d-2550-a570-d3727b7852c5@DancesWithMice.info>

On 17/03/2021 02.02, Gys wrote:
> On 3/14/21 7:44 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:
>> how can I change the path that python takes to run certain files, I'm
>> starting to create game and I want those in separate folders, so how
>> can I
>> change it so that python runs the program with the files from that
>> folder?


> this is a very dense subject. The simplest sulution is to create a

+1


> MainFolder with the main module of your game. Then in that folder,
> create a SubFolder where you can store the modules your game wants to
> import.

+1
- and start the game from "MainFolder", ie make that the "current
working directory".


> The alternative is to use the Environment variable $PYTHONPATH

Why not manipulate os.path directly instead of using $PYTHONPATH?
(this might turn into a philosophical discussion...)


> Setting Your PYTHONPATH environment variable (Linux/Unix/OsX)
> 
> Open your personal .bashrc file at /home/<YourName>/.bashrc

The above assumes a *nux OpSys. That being an aspect of the "dense
subject"! If you (OP) intend to distribute this game to other
users/systems, then it is important to be aware of the myriad
differences and 'gotchas'.

Another such challenge is to ensure that everything-needed will be
included in the s/w-delivery - it is very easy to manually copy-over one
directory, but equally easy to forget some (non-sub-directory) companion
library.

In the case of $PYTHONPATH, you will either have to provide a mechanism
to install such for your users, or ask them to do it manually!

(hint: users want to play the game, so don't expect them to be *nix
command-line experts)
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From jamtlu at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 23:44:05 2021
From: jamtlu at gmail.com (James Lu)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 23:44:05 -0500
Subject: Universal compiler that runs Java, Ruby, C++,
 and Python in a single VM
Message-ID: <CANQHGB0mdabU4_Skv--i4+HCLctx5NnF7AJdRUstQMmDFFZAvQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's called Oracle's Truffle. Truffle runs all those languages with an
autogenerated JIT.

This is my response to the neos drama.

From real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 14:32:18 2021
From: real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 18:32:18 +0000
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <ib8o3nFaihlU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <1p677g5.q4e21iitgovnN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>

Robert Latest <boblatest at yahoo.com> wrote:

> D.M. Procida wrote:
> > Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
> > a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.
> 
> [...]
> 
> > The Canonet G-III QL17 is one of my favourites. One of my reasons for
> > writing this code is to appreciate the intricate mechanical logic
> > embodied in the machine.
> 
> I love both photography with mechanical camears (The Nikon FE2 being my
> favorite) and programming. 

Yes, it's more fun to compute.

> So I absolutely love your project. Also I think its
> totally nuts. 

Thanks, I will take that as a compliment.

Daniele

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Wed Mar 17 17:11:43 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 21:11:43 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <eli$2103171520@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python,
D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
> a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.
> 
> There's also documentation: <https://c-is-for-camera.readthedocs.io>.

This is interesting. Some feedback.

> It's a pure Python model of the physical sub-systems of a camera and
> their interactions. So far it's at a fairly high level - I haven't yet
> got down to the level of individual springs and levers yet.

There's a wealth of specifics for that camera above individual springs
and levers. Notably how the light meter performs with different
batteries and how it works with other films. This much is clear from
just a few minutes research on the Canonet G-III QL17 (what a mouthful
of a name).

I'm guessing you plan to deal light meter quirks because of the battery
voltage setting. I see you don't even attempt to tackle ISO outside of
supported range (and I have no idea how the camera itself deals with
that). Is the camera sensing the ISO from the film roll (so won't work
with hand rolled film cartridges)? Is there a setting on the camera to
manually specify that? (I don't think so.)

> You can do things like advance the film, release the shutter, meter the
> scene with the built-in light meter (if the camera has a battery of
> course) and even spoil your film if you make the mistake of opening the
> back in daylight.

Film spoilage isn't boolean in real life. If I rewind most, but not all
of the way, before I open the back, I've only ruined a few frames. If I
open it in a lightproof camera bag, I can take the roll out without
rewinding.

(I've done such things with pin hole cameras.)

> But you can also do things that you shouldn't do, like opening the back
> of the camera in daylight with a partially-exposed roll of film inside -
> which will spoil the film::
> 
>     >>> c.back.open()
>     Opening back
>     Resetting frame counter to 0
>     'Film is ruined'

If luminosity is set to zero, that could emulate the lightproof bag.
Frame by frame "film is ruined" might be a better choice for boolean.

On this camera, there's no manual double exposure setting, right? So
partial rewind would be the way to do that. But I can make double
exposures with this code:

>>> c.shutter.trip()
Shutter openening for 1/128 seconds
Shutter closes
Shutter uncocked
'Tripped'
>>> c.shutter.cock()
Cocking shutter
Cocked
'Cocked'
>>> c.shutter_speed = 1/512
>>> c.shutter.trip()
Shutter openening for 1/512 seconds
Shutter closes
Shutter uncocked
'Tripped'
>>>

In general, I never used simple cameras with light meters. Advanced SLR
or dumb cameras. My personal favorite film camera is a Universal Mercury
II, a half frame 35mm from mid 1940s with hot and cold shoes (intended
for flash and film meter attachments), bulb to 1/1000 shutter range,
mechanical exposure calculator on the back, and a dial for reminding you
what film you have in it.

Does a camera like the one you have modelled that actively stop you from
using a ISO/shutter speed/F-stop that will vastly over- or under- expose
things? Or is it just a warning light in the viewfinder?

Certainly my c.shutter.trip() calls give me no advice from the meter.

A useful thing your camera-as-code model could provide, but doesn't, is
some measure of how exposed each frame is. This will be a function of
film speed, iris setting, cumulative exposure time from zero or more
shutter openings, and scene luminosity. (You could extend this to
include opened back over exposure conditions.)

Elijah
------
can see how this might get integrated with an image generation tool

From real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk  Wed Mar 17 18:49:17 2021
From: real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2021 22:49:17 +0000
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <eli$2103171520@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <1p67fml.unoytisjj5hnN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> In comp.lang.python,
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
> > a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.
> > 
> > There's also documentation: <https://c-is-for-camera.readthedocs.io>.
> 
> This is interesting. Some feedback.
> 
> > It's a pure Python model of the physical sub-systems of a camera and
> > their interactions. So far it's at a fairly high level - I haven't yet
> > got down to the level of individual springs and levers yet.
> 
> There's a wealth of specifics for that camera above individual springs
> and levers. Notably how the light meter performs with different
> batteries and how it works with other films. This much is clear from
> just a few minutes research on the Canonet G-III QL17 (what a mouthful
> of a name).
> 
> I'm guessing you plan to deal light meter quirks because of the battery
> voltage setting. 

You're absolutely right. In fact, the camera is initialised with a
battery with a certain voltage, and eventually the voltage needs to make
a difference to the behaviour of the metering circuit. However I haven't
figured that out yet.

> I see you don't even attempt to tackle ISO outside of
> supported range (and I have no idea how the camera itself deals with
> that). Is the camera sensing the ISO from the film roll (so won't work
> with hand rolled film cartridges)? Is there a setting on the camera to
> manually specify that? (I don't think so.)

The camera's film speed setting (it's old enough that it's ASA rather
than ISO) is set manually. If you try to set an illegal value, there's a
setter decorator that raises a NonExistentFilmSpeed exception.
 
> Film spoilage isn't boolean in real life. If I rewind most, but not all
> of the way, before I open the back, I've only ruined a few frames. If I
> open it in a lightproof camera bag, I can take the roll out without
> rewinding.

I was going to settle for having the exposed frames ruined, if the
camera is opened in an environment of sufficient luminosity.
 
> On this camera, there's no manual double exposure setting, right? So
> partial rewind would be the way to do that. But I can make double
> exposures with this code:
> 
> >>> c.shutter.trip()
> >>> c.shutter.cock()
> >>> c.shutter.trip()

That's true - but only because I haven't yet finished adding the camera
controls. In normal use, you would only interact with the camera
controls, whereas c.shutter.trip() and so on are interacting with the
internal mechanisms.

I have to add a button and winder lever to the camera object itself, I'm
doing those things bit by bit.
 
> Does a camera like the one you have modelled that actively stop you from
> using a ISO/shutter speed/F-stop that will vastly over- or under- expose
> things? Or is it just a warning light in the viewfinder?

In A mode (shutter-priority autoexposure) it will simply not allow the
shutter to be tripped if the exposure is not within range. In manual
mode, there are no constraints.

> A useful thing your camera-as-code model could provide, but doesn't, is
> some measure of how exposed each frame is. This will be a function of
> film speed, iris setting, cumulative exposure time from zero or more
> shutter openings, and scene luminosity. (You could extend this to
> include opened back over exposure conditions.)

Yes, it would be fun to allow it to "take a picture" of an image file,
and process the result. Or ultimately built into a web application using
somehting like https://anvil.works and have take a real picture with a
user's webcam.

Thanks for the interest!

Daniele

From * at eli.users.panix.com  Wed Mar 17 21:11:42 2021
From: * at eli.users.panix.com (Eli the Bearded)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 01:11:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <eli$2103171520@qaz.wtf>
 <1p67fml.unoytisjj5hnN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <eli$2103172037@qaz.wtf>

In comp.lang.python,
D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
> Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>> I see you don't even attempt to tackle ISO outside of
>> supported range (and I have no idea how the camera itself deals with
>> that). Is the camera sensing the ISO from the film roll (so won't work
>> with hand rolled film cartridges)? Is there a setting on the camera to
>> manually specify that? (I don't think so.)
> The camera's film speed setting (it's old enough that it's ASA rather
> than ISO) is set manually. If you try to set an illegal value, there's a
> setter decorator that raises a NonExistentFilmSpeed exception.

I can see what the code does, I'm asking what the camera does and do you
plan to work that into your code? Maybe it only works for ISO 1600 in
manual mode, but works.

> I have to add a button and winder lever to the camera object itself, I'm
> doing those things bit by bit.

Gotcha.

> Yes, it would be fun to allow it to "take a picture" of an image file,
> and process the result. Or ultimately built into a web application using
> somehting like https://anvil.works and have take a real picture with a
> user's webcam.

Yes, that sounds like good future work.

Elijah
------
bring light into the dark box

From real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 09:31:10 2021
From: real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 13:31:10 +0000
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <eli$2103171520@qaz.wtf>
 <1p67fml.unoytisjj5hnN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <eli$2103172037@qaz.wtf>
Message-ID: <1p68c9j.ai7oc51y0ifl4N%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> In comp.lang.python,
> D.M. Procida <real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:
> > Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
> >> I see you don't even attempt to tackle ISO outside of
> >> supported range (and I have no idea how the camera itself deals with
> >> that). Is the camera sensing the ISO from the film roll (so won't work
> >> with hand rolled film cartridges)? Is there a setting on the camera to
> >> manually specify that? (I don't think so.)
> > The camera's film speed setting (it's old enough that it's ASA rather
> > than ISO) is set manually. If you try to set an illegal value, there's a
> > setter decorator that raises a NonExistentFilmSpeed exception.
> 
> I can see what the code does, I'm asking what the camera does and do you
> plan to work that into your code? Maybe it only works for ISO 1600 in
> manual mode, but works.

The code does what the camera allows - the camera has a ring with film
speeds of 25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 800 marked on it; those are the values
you can select (in fact there are two unmarked steps in between each of
those, but I've yet to build those in).

Internally, moving the film speed ring slides contacts along a variable
resistor, which is part of the metering system circuitry. It could be
that the range of the resistor or the theoretical range of the circuit
is beyond the settable values, but I can't work that out from the
circuit diagram.

Daniele

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 18 09:52:08 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 18 Mar 2021 13:52:08 GMT
Subject: [SQLAlchemy] Struggling with association_proxy
Message-ID: <ibh488Fufr6U1@mid.individual.net>

I'm trying to implement a many-to-many relationship that associates Baskets
with Items via an association object called Link which holds the quantity of
each item. I've done that in SQLAlchemy in a very pedestrian way, such as when
I want to have six eggs in a basket:

1. Find ID of Item with name 'egg'
2. See if there is an association object with the egg ID and the basket ID
3a. if yes, set its quantity to 6
3b if no, create it with quantity 6 and add it to the items colletion in basket

The association_proxy documentation suggests that this could be done elegantly
in such a way that I could simply write

basket.contents['egg'] = 6

and be done with it. I've tried to follow the documentation at 
https://docs.sqlalchemy.org/en/14/orm/extensions/associationproxy.html
but I don't understand it: It keeps creating new keyword instances rather
re-using existing ones, thus defeating the many-to-many idea. Here's what I've
come up so far, but it predictably fails because I don't want it to create new
Items on its own:

from sqlalchemy import create_engine, Column, Integer,\
    String, ForeignKey
from sqlalchemy.ext.associationproxy import association_proxy
from sqlalchemy.orm import relationship, sessionmaker, backref
from sqlalchemy.orm.collections import attribute_mapped_collection
from sqlalchemy.ext.declarative import declarative_base

Base = declarative_base()

class Basket(Base):
    __tablename__ = 'basket'
    id            = Column(Integer, primary_key=True)
    contents = association_proxy('basket_contents', 'id')

class Link(Base):
    __tablename__ = 'link'
    item_id       = Column(ForeignKey('item.id'), primary_key=True)
    basket_id     = Column(ForeignKey('basket.id'), primary_key=True)
    quantity      = Column(Integer)
    basket = relationship(Basket, backref=backref('basket_contents',
        collection_class=attribute_mapped_collection('quantity')))
    item = relationship('Item')
    name = association_proxy('item', 'name')

    def __init__(self, name, quantity):
        # this doesn't work b/c it calls Item.__init__() rather than
        # looking for an existing Item
        self.name = name
        self.quantity = quantity

class Item(Base):
    __tablename__ = 'item'
    id            = Column(Integer, primary_key=True)
    name          = Column(String(10), unique=True)
    weight        = Column(Integer)
    color         = String(10)

engine = create_engine('sqlite://')
Base.metadata.create_all(engine)
Session = sessionmaker(engine)

db = Session()

egg = Item(name='egg', weight=50, color='white')

b = Basket()

# fails because in Link.__init__(), SQLAlchemy wants to create a new Item
# rather than using the existing one.
b.contents['egg'] = 6

db.add(b)

db.commit()


From lee at lcongdon.com  Thu Mar 18 10:55:41 2021
From: lee at lcongdon.com (Lee Congdon)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 10:55:41 -0400
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
In-Reply-To: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CANMMp11QEibHQjSDFT=3AvFuymuV7W4Ss-uuDKEV7rwni3C4DA@mail.gmail.com>

Note also 36 exposure film.

 ------------------ Film -------------------------
    Speed:                      100 ISO
    Rewound into cartridge:     False
    Exposed frames:             0 (of 24)
    Ruined:                     False

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 5:20 AM D.M. Procida <
real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi everyone, I've created <https://github.com/evildmp/C-is-for-Camera> -
> a representation of a Canonet G-III QL17 in Python.
>
> There's also documentation: <https://c-is-for-camera.readthedocs.io>.
>
> It's a pure Python model of the physical sub-systems of a camera and
> their interactions. So far it's at a fairly high level - I haven't yet
> got down to the level of individual springs and levers yet.
>
> I spend quite a bit of my time repairing old cameras. To me they feel
> like computer programs encoded into physical objects, and figuring out
> how a mechanism works feels like working out how code works (but more
> fun).
>
> The Canonet G-III QL17 is one of my favourites. One of my reasons for
> writing this code is to appreciate the intricate mechanical logic
> embodied in the machine.
>
> You can do things like advance the film, release the shutter, meter the
> scene with the built-in light meter (if the camera has a battery of
> course) and even spoil your film if you make the mistake of opening the
> back in daylight.
>
>     >>> from camera import Camera
>     >>> c = Camera()
>
>     >>> c.state()
>     ================== Camera state =================
>
>     ------------------ Controls ---------------------
>     Selected speed:            1/120
>
>     ------------------ Mechanical -------------------
>     Back closed:               True
>     Lens cap on:               False
>     Film advance mechanism:    False
>     Frame counter:             0
>     Shutter cocked:            False
>     Shutter timer:             1/128 seconds
>     Iris aperture:             ?/16
>     Camera exposure settings:  15.0 EV
>
>     ------------------ Metering ---------------------
>     Light meter reading:        4096 cd/m^2
>     Exposure target:            15.0 EV
>     Mode:                       Shutter priority
>     Battery:                    1.44 V
>     Film speed:                 100 ISO
>
>     ------------------ Film -------------------------
>     Speed:                      100 ISO
>     Rewound into cartridge:     False
>     Exposed frames:             0 (of 24)
>     Ruined:                     False
>
>     ------------------ Environment ------------------
>     Scene luminosity:           4096 cd/m^2
>
>     >>> c.film_advance_mechanism.advance()
>     Cocking shutter
>     Cocked
>
>     >>> c.shutter.trip()
>     Shutter opens
>     Shutter closes
>     Shutter opened for 1/128 seconds
>     Shutter uncocked
>
> You can't do impossible things:
>
>     >>> c.shutter_speed = 1/33
>     Traceback (most recent call last):
>       File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
>       File "/Users/daniele/Repositories/camera/camera.py", line 29, in
>         shutter_speed
>         raise self.NonExistentShutterSpeed(f"Possible shutter speeds are
>           {possible_settings}")
>     camera.NonExistentShutterSpeed: Possible shutter speeds are 1/4,
>       1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/120, 1/240, 1/500
>
> But you can also do things that you shouldn't do, like opening the back
> of the camera in daylight with a partially-exposed roll of film inside -
> which will spoil the film::
>
>     >>> c.back.open()
>     Opening back
>     Resetting frame counter to 0
>     'Film is ruined'
>
> I hope this interesting to someone.
>
> Daniele
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
+1-202-507-9867, Twitter @lcongdon

From real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk  Thu Mar 18 11:00:59 2021
From: real-not-anti-spam-address at apple-juice.co.uk (D.M. Procida)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:00:59 +0000
Subject: A 35mm film camera represented in Python object
References: <1p5o1as.ard2i1w91fiN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>
 <CANMMp11QEibHQjSDFT=3AvFuymuV7W4Ss-uuDKEV7rwni3C4DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.130.1616079354.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <1p68sbf.je6nlio8jeksN%real-not-anti-spam-address@apple-juice.co.uk>

Lee Congdon <lee at lcongdon.com> wrote:

> Note also 36 exposure film.

That depends on how many frames the Film object has!

Daniele

From nsagar3 at dxc.com  Thu Mar 18 06:58:19 2021
From: nsagar3 at dxc.com (Sagar, Neha)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 10:58:19 +0000
Subject: SSL certificate issue
Message-ID: <PH0PR01MB62792A9B6D9A1803436643D2F1699@PH0PR01MB6279.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Hi,

I am facing SSL certificate issue working with python. Can you help me on this.

Thanks,
Neha

DXC Technology India Private Limited - Unit 13, Block 2, SDF Buildings, MEPZ SEZ, Tambaram, Chennai 600 045, Tamil Nadu. Registered in India, CIN: U72900TN2015FTC102489.
DXC Technology Company -- This message is transmitted to you by or on behalf of DXC Technology Company or one of its affiliates. It is intended exclusively for the addressee. The substance of this message, along with any attachments, may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information or information that is otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate any part of this message. If you have received this message in error, please destroy and delete all copies and notify the sender by return e-mail. Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind DXC Technology Company or any of its affiliates to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose.

From dieter at handshake.de  Thu Mar 18 12:23:39 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 17:23:39 +0100
Subject: SSL certificate issue
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR01MB62792A9B6D9A1803436643D2F1699@PH0PR01MB6279.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <PH0PR01MB62792A9B6D9A1803436643D2F1699@PH0PR01MB6279.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <24659.32395.313042.550192@ixdm.fritz.box>

Sagar, Neha wrote at 2021-3-18 10:58 +0000:
>I am facing SSL certificate issue working with python. Can you help me on this.

Python does not directly operate on SSL certificates.
Usually, certificates for trusted CAs (= "Certificate Authorities")
are stored at a standard place (depending on your operating system)
and used for certificate versification by system libraries
implementing SSL/TLS. Python just interfaces with those libraries.

Browsers typically use the same location for certificate verification.
Thus, a first step is usually to verify whether a browser
shows the same issue regarding a specific certificate.
In this case, you would need to install further certificates.

From pbryan at anode.ca  Thu Mar 18 11:57:25 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2021 15:57:25 +0000
Subject: SSL certificate issue
In-Reply-To: <PH0PR01MB62792A9B6D9A1803436643D2F1699@PH0PR01MB6279.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <PH0PR01MB62792A9B6D9A1803436643D2F1699@PH0PR01MB6279.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <010d0178460e4def-a5e676df-3587-4289-bb67-8e5df7173116-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

In order for us to help, we'll need to know the details of your
problem.

On Thu, 2021-03-18 at 10:58 +0000, Sagar, Neha wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am facing SSL certificate issue working with python. Can you help
> me on this.
> 
> Thanks,
> Neha
> 
> DXC Technology India Private Limited - Unit 13, Block 2, SDF
> Buildings, MEPZ SEZ, Tambaram, Chennai 600 045, Tamil Nadu.
> Registered in India, CIN: U72900TN2015FTC102489.
> DXC Technology Company -- This message is transmitted to you by or on
> behalf of DXC Technology Company or one of its affiliates. It is
> intended exclusively for the addressee. The substance of this
> message, along with any attachments, may contain proprietary,
> confidential or privileged information or information that is
> otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. Any unauthorized review,
> use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
> intended recipient of this message, you are not authorized to read,
> print, retain, copy or disseminate any part of this message. If you
> have received this message in error, please destroy and delete all
> copies and notify the sender by return e-mail. Regardless of content,
> this e-mail shall not operate to bind DXC Technology Company or any
> of its affiliates to any order or other contract unless pursuant to
> explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly
> permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose.


From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 10:43:39 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:43:39 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
Message-ID: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings list,

See this:

>>> "Python's usage".title()
"Python'S Usage"

It should have been Python's Usage

Why capitalise the S?

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From pbryan at anode.ca  Fri Mar 19 10:50:04 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 14:50:04 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

From?https://docs.python.org/3.9/library/stdtypes.html#str.title:

> The algorithm uses a simple language-independent definition of a word
> as groups of consecutive letters. The definition works in many
> contexts but it means that apostrophes in contractions and
> possessives form word boundaries, which may not be the desired result

The link above includes a workaround for apostrophes.

Paul

On Fri, 2021-03-19 at 18:43 +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Greetings list,
> 
> See this:
> 
> > > > "Python's usage".title()
> "Python'S Usage"
> 
> It should have been Python's Usage
> 
> Why capitalise the S?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
> <https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
> Mauritius


From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 11:02:19 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 19:02:19 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
Message-ID: <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks very much!

That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

>

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 12:22:30 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 11:22:30 -0500
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!
>

Certainly seems like a known issue:

https://bugs.python.org/issue12737

That issue was opened in 2011.

Skip

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 12:42:43 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 16:42:43 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-19, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!
>>
>
> Certainly seems like a known issue:
>
> https://bugs.python.org/issue12737

While that is an issue with string.title(), I don't see how it's
related to what the OP is reporting. Issue 12737 is about Unicode
combining marks. The OP's problem is related to the apostrophe used to
form a possessive.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Civilization is fun!
                                  at               Anyway, it keeps me busy!!
                              gmail.com            


From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 13:00:20 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:00:20 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's about unnecessary capitalisation for a common use case
in English.

You can see it in action on my site:
https://www.compileralchemy.com/#articles

see 24.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 13:17:53 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 04:17:53 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 4:01 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
<arj.python at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's about unnecessary capitalisation for a common use case
> in English.
>
> You can see it in action on my site:
> https://www.compileralchemy.com/#articles
>
> see 24.
>

If you want something that's designed for English, get something
that's designed for English. The string method is deliberately
language-agnostic and simple.

ChrisA

From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 13:19:48 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 21:19:48 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>

Aie sorry,

Did not know it targetted the non-english speakers.

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From klsshaeffer at icloud.com  Fri Mar 19 13:45:17 2021
From: klsshaeffer at icloud.com (Karen Shaeffer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 10:45:17 -0700
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <4786C20E-A133-4F83-AEA4-F8D9DD607A20@icloud.com>



> On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:42 AM, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2021-03-19, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!
>>> 
>> 
>> Certainly seems like a known issue:
>> 
>> https://bugs.python.org/issue12737
> 
> While that is an issue with string.title(), I don't see how it's
> related to what the OP is reporting. Issue 12737 is about Unicode
> combining marks.

Hi,
I?ve been frustrated by my experiences processing unstructured multilingual text with python. I?ve always assumed this was due to my insufficient experience with python (3) text processing. I?ve recently begun coding with Go. (I also continue to code in Python) And Go has exceptionally crisp and clear capacity to process unstructured multilingual utf-8 encoded text.

In just a few days of working with text processing in Go, using the book ?The Go Programming Language? by Donovan and Kernighan, along with the Go language specification and other free online help, I have acquired a clear and crisp understanding of how to work effectively with unstructured, multilingual utf-8 encoded text (and emojis) and any unicode code point ? even invalid unicode code points.

To see some of these issues first hand, write a palindrome detector that works with any sequence of utf-8 encoded code points, including invalid code points. I?m sure it can be done in python, although I?ve not done it. It?s a trivial exercise in Go.

I?m not bashing Python here. I will continue to code with python. Its an exceptional language and community. Just commenting on my experience.

humbly,
Karen


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 14:02:14 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 05:02:14 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <4786C20E-A133-4F83-AEA4-F8D9DD607A20@icloud.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <4786C20E-A133-4F83-AEA4-F8D9DD607A20@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrxBg-gA+hyWC98Fg_akvzq4Wz7jrqupCSvDmXQURbCsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 4:46 AM Karen Shaeffer via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 19, 2021, at 9:42 AM, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2021-03-19, Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Certainly seems like a known issue:
> >>
> >> https://bugs.python.org/issue12737
> >
> > While that is an issue with string.title(), I don't see how it's
> > related to what the OP is reporting. Issue 12737 is about Unicode
> > combining marks.
>
> Hi,
> I?ve been frustrated by my experiences processing unstructured multilingual text with python. I?ve always assumed this was due to my insufficient experience with python (3) text processing. I?ve recently begun coding with Go. (I also continue to code in Python) And Go has exceptionally crisp and clear capacity to process unstructured multilingual utf-8 encoded text.
>
> In just a few days of working with text processing in Go, using the book ?The Go Programming Language? by Donovan and Kernighan, along with the Go language specification and other free online help, I have acquired a clear and crisp understanding of how to work effectively with unstructured, multilingual utf-8 encoded text (and emojis) and any unicode code point ? even invalid unicode code points.
>
> To see some of these issues first hand, write a palindrome detector that works with any sequence of utf-8 encoded code points, including invalid code points. I?m sure it can be done in python, although I?ve not done it. It?s a trivial exercise in Go.
>
> I?m not bashing Python here. I will continue to code with python. Its an exceptional language and community. Just commenting on my experience.
>

Python doesn't work with UTF-8 encoded code points; it works with
Unicode code points. Are you looking for something that checks whether
something is a palindrome, or locates palindromes within it?

def is_palindrome(txt):
    return txt == txt[::-1]

Easy.

Efficiently finding substring palindromes would be a bit harder, but
that'd be true even if you restricted it to ASCII. The advantage of
Python's way of doing it is that, if you have a method that would work
with ASCII bytes, the exact same thing will work with a Unicode
string.

There's another big wrinkle not touched here, and that's what to do
with combining characters. Python makes it easy to normalize text as
much as is possible, and an NFC normalization would help a lot, but
it's not going to do everything. So you may want to first define a
proper way to split a string into whatever you're defining a character
to be, and that's a very difficult problem, regardless of programming
language. For example, Arabic text changes in visual shape when
letters are next to each other, and Greek has two different forms for
the letter sigma (U+03C2 and U+03C3) - should those distinctions
affect palindromminess? What about ligatures - is U+FB01 "?" a single
character, or should it be matched by "if" on the other end?

What part of this is trivial in Go?

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Fri Mar 19 14:04:39 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:04:39 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-19 17:19, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> Aie sorry,
> 
> Did not know it targetted the non-english speakers.
> 
You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to 
become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.

From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 14:13:45 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:13:45 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=G_dg5Fi8x+Pgf2Bb7GNRcMj2mY6x35n4aW2sQhAAbGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, 22:07 MRAB, <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:

> You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to
> become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.
>

Ah depends on a language (English i guess).

Thanks

>

From Joseph.Schachner at Teledyne.com  Fri Mar 19 14:13:49 2021
From: Joseph.Schachner at Teledyne.com (Schachner, Joseph)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:13:49 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN8PR14MB2851D6677045B9E9E2F74AC0F5689@BN8PR14MB2851.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I agree.  If the documentation notes this issue, and the (possibly new) Python user has to replace the .title() with a different function that uses regular expression and a lambda function to work around the issue, then perhaps it's time for a proposal to address this.  Perhaps there needs to be an optional argument to .title() which if supplied should tell it do the workaround.   Or, perhaps better, only capitalize the first word and subsequent words that are preceded by a white space.  That should solve "Someone's Apostrophe" and "Hyphenated-expressions". Someone who looks into this should check if the second part of a hyphenated expression needs to be capitalized. 

--- Joseph S.   


Teledyne Confidential; Commercially Sensitive Business Data

-----Original Message-----
From: Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python at gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 11:02 AM
To: Paul Bryan <pbryan at anode.ca>
Cc: Python <python-list at python.org>
Subject: Re: .title() - annoying mistake

Thanks very much!

That's annoying. You have to roll your own solution!

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog <https://www.pythonkitchen.com> github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

>

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 14:49:52 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 18:49:52 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-19, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2021-03-19 17:19, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
>> Aie sorry,
>> 
>> Did not know it targetted the non-english speakers.
>> 
> You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to 
> become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.

In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
.title() doesn't get that right either:

>>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'

should be

'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm definitely not
                                  at               in Omaha!
                              gmail.com            


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Mar 19 15:33:32 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 08:33:32 +1300
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <e72072d1-0226-d50c-c13e-5b552d528553@DancesWithMice.info>

On 20/03/2021 07.49, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-03-19, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to 
>> become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.
> 
> In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
> the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
> .title() doesn't get that right either:
> 
>>>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
> 'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'
> 
> should be
> 
> 'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'


To be fair, aren't book-titles* a (formalised) sub-set of the English
language?

https://www.librarianshipstudies.com/2018/12/anglo-american-cataloguing-rules-aacr.html

* plays, movies, ...

See also people's/family-names which have been anglicised or
transliterated...
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From mats at wichmann.us  Fri Mar 19 15:30:07 2021
From: mats at wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 13:30:07 -0600
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>

On 3/19/21 12:49 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-03-19, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 2021-03-19 17:19, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
>>> Aie sorry,
>>>
>>> Did not know it targetted the non-english speakers.
>>>
>> You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to
>> become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.
> 
> In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
> the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
> .title() doesn't get that right either:
> 
>>>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
> 'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'
> 
> should be
> 
> 'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'

The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case, which I 
understood to be specifically for English, following the rules that 
Grant mentions ("certain words are not capitalized"), but on looking it 
up it turns out that the various style guides (some of which we don't 
get to mention here without stirring up controversy) each have their own 
interpretations of what it is.  And Python doesn't do any of those: 
Python does what is documented.

So possibly the choice to call it titlecase is the source of the confusion?

From arj.python at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 15:47:03 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 23:47:03 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>

At least i'd expect what it pretends to do
even if not following English.

Missing ' is a weird behaviour, i get it
they skipped every non lettet


On Fri, 19 Mar 2021, 22:50 Grant Edwards, <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
> the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
> .title() doesn't get that right either:
>
> >>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
> 'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'
>
> should be
>
> 'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'
>

From drsalists at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 15:58:50 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 12:58:50 -0700
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_oX1vEz_bLLcz_gtDX9=xraF+z90L0TGeBcjnKzkp+EsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2021 at 11:51 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 2021-03-19, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> > On 2021-03-19 17:19, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
> >> Aie sorry,
> >>
> >> Did not know it targetted the non-english speakers.
> >>
> > You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to
> > become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.
>
> In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
> the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
> .title() doesn't get that right either:
>
> >>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
> 'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'
>
> should be
>
> 'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'
>

In high school, I was taught that English has multiple capitalization
rulesets to choose among for titles.

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Fri Mar 19 16:29:21 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:29:21 +1300
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f39935b3-e25a-4e02-d9d9-c8232e3922b7@DancesWithMice.info>

On 20/03/2021 06.17, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 4:01 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> <arj.python at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's about unnecessary capitalisation for a common use case
>> in English.
>>
>> You can see it in action on my site:
>> https://www.compileralchemy.com/#articles
>>
>> see 24.
>>
> 
> If you want something that's designed for English, get something
> that's designed for English. The string method is deliberately
> language-agnostic and simple.


There is an (unintended) 'psychological trap' here - that the
documentation is in English, but that the feature's application is
language-agnostic.


Perhaps the bigger trap is "SODD"! (Stack Overflow-Driven Development -
dn patent pending) Specifically, from where do we learn, the
authoritative (or otherwise) nature of our source(s), and how effective
that learning-process?

Recently, my grumpy-old-man status rose a notch, when I received a
'Finxter' email-advertisement offering a course in "all" of the Python
built-in functions. The advert claimed that this new offering was the
first time such a course& had been offered. Quite aside from such
teaching being contrary to theories of learning (other than rote), IMHO,
this claim seemed specious. A casual web-search rapidly revealed the
falsehood, by reminding me of a Udemy offering& and Techvidian's& -
amongst others. NB such evidence making the advertisement illegal in
this jurisdiction (albeit not many others)!

Applying such concerns to our str.title() conversation, a quick-fire
web-search quickly offers W3School's entry&, which is typical of the
genre (that I have conflated under the title "SODD").

If you'd care to repeat the experiment (& refs below), you will find
that this web-page (and its ilk) offer a quick way to remind oneself of
the syntax and purpose of the function, as needed. However, its brief
description is insufficient for learning - and totally-inappropriate
when it comes to helping the OP! The 'psychological trap' inherent in
these is the fallacy of apparent sufficiency - that the 'answer' might
be complete, and therefore the impression that there is nothing left to
learn. Whither their value?


Compare that/them with the Python documentation& (per @Paul's post). Not
only do we have the 'quick reminder' capability, but also the warning -
and further a sample work-around. Here we have "authority" and
"completeness" (and an open-source philosophy of enabling improvement).

The 'docs' team work very hard on our behalf. Not only do they deserve
our 'support' as readers, but such is also a more worthwhile investment
in our own learning!


BTW when programming, I will keep the Python Documentation web-page as
an open tab in my web-browser, precisely to facilitate such rapid
look-ups/reminders. Although, these days, editors/IDEs probably satisfy
the majority of such needs. In addition, the DuckDuckGo search engine
offers a "bang lookup" (short-cut) to the Python docs search page, ie
"!py .title()" realises
"https://docs.python.org/3/search.html?q=.title()" and thus gives
pointers to str.title() plus the bytes and turtle methods of the same
name - additionally to str.istitle() which is the inspection 'companion'
to the 'do it' function we've been discussing!

As many GPS-users have found to their cost, placing your reliance upon a
tool whose objective is 'convenience', can lead you "down the garden path"&!


& Web.Refs:
https://academy.finxter.com/university/python-built-in-functions-every-python-coder-must-know/
(https://www.udemy.com/course/the-python-built-in-function-tutorial-series/)
(https://techvidvan.com/tutorials/python-built-in-functions/)
https://www.w3schools.com/python/ref_string_title.asp
https://docs.python.org/3.9/library/stdtypes.html#str.title
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/lead+down+the+garden+path
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From tjol at tjol.eu  Fri Mar 19 18:17:37 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 23:17:37 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <e72072d1-0226-d50c-c13e-5b552d528553@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <e72072d1-0226-d50c-c13e-5b552d528553@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <a1f43112-c498-79ce-013f-d3f65000bc5f@tjol.eu>

On 19/03/2021 20:33, dn via Python-list wrote:
> On 20/03/2021 07.49, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2021-03-19, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>>> You want English "man's" to become "Man's", but French "l'homme" to
>>> become "L'Homme". It's language-dependant.
>> In English, certain words are not capitalized in titles unless they're
>> the first word in the title (short articles and prepositions), and
>> .title() doesn't get that right either:
>>
>>>>> "the man in the grey flannel suit".title()
>> 'The Man In The Grey Flannel Suit'
>>
>> should be
>>
>> 'The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit'
>
> To be fair, aren't book-titles* a (formalised) sub-set of the English
> language?

 From a quick scan of my (medium-sized) bookshelf, most publishers seem 
to agree that the thing to do is set the title in all caps. Of the few 
(English-language) books I have with any lower-case letters on the spine 
at all, most seem to follow the same general sort of rules for what 
words to capitalize, but ?Last Chance To See?, capital T, by Douglas 
Adams, is one exception.

Of the others, I noticed that ?The Life and Times Times of The 
Thunderbolt Kid? by Bill Bryson has an interesting choice of 
capitalization which is perfectly logical but certainly not the only option.




From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 18:25:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 09:25:18 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <a1f43112-c498-79ce-013f-d3f65000bc5f@tjol.eu>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <e72072d1-0226-d50c-c13e-5b552d528553@DancesWithMice.info>
 <a1f43112-c498-79ce-013f-d3f65000bc5f@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrB+5qubAdsKoirwguEcjKPk2hvFgYFPP5fxzG5yGbUfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 9:19 AM Thomas Jollans <tjol at tjol.eu> wrote:
>  From a quick scan of my (medium-sized) bookshelf, most publishers seem
> to agree that the thing to do is set the title in all caps.

The rule also applies to mentions of titles in the middles of
sentences, such as if I were to refer to "Alice's Adventures in
Wonderland" as part of this discussion.

ChrisA

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Mar 19 20:32:36 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 00:32:36 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_oX1vEz_bLLcz_gtDX9=xraF+z90L0TGeBcjnKzkp+EsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAGGBd_oX1vEz_bLLcz_gtDX9=xraF+z90L0TGeBcjnKzkp+EsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s33fr5$12or$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 19/03/2021 19:58, Dan Stromberg wrote:

> In high school, I was taught that English has multiple capitalization
> rulesets to choose among for titles.
> 

And, of course, there are multiple forms of English.
English English is very different from US English.

And even in the UK there are (a few, minor) differences between
usage in Scotland compared to England, for example.

Trying to write programming languages to follow natural
language semantics and grammar is an exercise in frustration.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From tjreedy at udel.edu  Fri Mar 19 22:22:25 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2021 22:22:25 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <a1f43112-c498-79ce-013f-d3f65000bc5f@tjol.eu>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <e72072d1-0226-d50c-c13e-5b552d528553@DancesWithMice.info>
 <a1f43112-c498-79ce-013f-d3f65000bc5f@tjol.eu>
Message-ID: <s33m93$cii$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/19/2021 6:17 PM, Thomas Jollans wrote:

>  From a quick scan of my (medium-sized) bookshelf, most publishers seem 
> to agree that the thing to do is set the title in all caps.

In my quick perusal, this is more true of 'popular' works, whereas 
'academic' work are more likely to use titlecase.  The title on the 
(optional) inner flyleaf and title page is more likely to be titlecase. 
  For the US Library of Congress catalog entry, the convention seems to 
be capitalize first word and proper names, like 'C' and 'Python', list a 
sentence, but no '.'.

Overall, the only rule is no rule.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From cs at cskk.id.au  Sat Mar 20 01:52:39 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:52:39 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>

On 19Mar2021 23:47, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <arj.python at gmail.com> wrote:
>At least i'd expect what it pretends to do
>even if not following English.
>
>Missing ' is a weird behaviour, i get it
>they skipped every non lettet

I think the lesson here is that .title() doesn't even do English 
language title capitalisation, and you shouldn't expect it to. That's a 
context dependent vocabulary dependent thing and there's plenty of 
variations on how you might like to do it. So expecting a naive context 
free method to do what you want is unwise.

The .title method does something which resembles English capitalisation 
in simple cases. Rather than naming it .simplistic_if_you_are_lucky it 
was named .title because in some simple cases it does do what you might 
want: _read_ its specification and recognise that that is _not_ a 
natural language capable function, but s simple lexical function which 
toggles the leading character of a simple approximation of "words".

_If_ you're going to use it with natural language, its simplicity 
implies that the user needs to do some preparsing of the text to decide 
where this function can be used to get correct results.

Don't get hung up that it didn't do what you want, recognise that it 
does something simple and work with that limitation. Or make your own, 
likely as part of a more complex library with deeper understanding of 
language.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From arj.python at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 02:07:32 2021
From: arj.python at gmail.com (Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:07:32 +0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

Missing the 'S renders in my opinion the method unfit to be included
in it's current form.

It is a call to improve it if possible. We wonder why in the first place
such a
method exists. If indeed it intends to capitalise all first letters, putting
others in lowercase, the ' is a too common case to be ignored.

The intent was:

"Return a titlecased version of the string where words start with an
uppercase
character and the remaining characters are lowercase."

But the ' is a case acknowledged by the docs:

"The algorithm uses a simple language-independent definition of a word as
groups of consecutive letters. The definition works in many contexts but it
means that apostrophes in contractions and possessives form word
boundaries,
which may not be the desired result:
...
A workaround for apostrophes can be constructed using regular expressions:
..."

Why not do it if you know people miss it?

Kind Regards,

Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
about <https://compileralchemy.github.io/> | blog
<https://www.pythonkitchen.com>
github <https://github.com/Abdur-RahmaanJ>
Mauritius

From alan at csail.mit.edu  Sat Mar 20 04:34:02 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 04:34:02 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
tells you how to map between them.  Consider:

   >>> '\u01f1'.upper()
   '\u01f1'

This is the "DZ" character.

   >>> '\u01f1'.lower()
   '\u01f3'

This is the "dz" character.

   >>> '\u01f1'.title()
   '\u01f2'

This is the "Dz" character.

When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.

-- 
Alan Bawden

From david at kolovratnik.net  Sat Mar 20 05:29:38 2021
From: david at kolovratnik.net (David =?iso-8859-1?Q?Kolovratn=EDk?=)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:29:38 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <20210320092938.GS14929@crfreenet.org>

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 04:34:02AM -0400, Alan Bawden wrote:
> The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
> because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
> tells you how to map between them.  Consider:
> 
>    >>> '\u01f1'.upper()
>    '\u01f1'
> 
> This is the "DZ" character.
> 
>    >>> '\u01f1'.lower()
>    '\u01f3'
> 
> This is the "dz" character.
> 
>    >>> '\u01f1'.title()
>    '\u01f2'
> 
> This is the "Dz" character.
> 
> When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
> calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.
It would be great to read this reasoning in the documentation.

Cheers,
David

From nulla.epistola at web.de  Sat Mar 20 07:53:13 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:53:13 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>

Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
> The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
> because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
> tells you how to map between them.  Consider:
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.upper()
>     '\u01f1'
> 
> This is the "DZ" character.
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.lower()
>     '\u01f3'
> 
> This is the "dz" character.
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.title()
>     '\u01f2'
> 
> This is the "Dz" character.
> 
> When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
> calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.
> 
But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, 
but not really satisfactory.



From nulla.epistola at web.de  Sat Mar 20 07:53:13 2021
From: nulla.epistola at web.de (Sibylle Koczian)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 12:53:13 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>

Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
> The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
> because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
> tells you how to map between them.  Consider:
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.upper()
>     '\u01f1'
> 
> This is the "DZ" character.
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.lower()
>     '\u01f3'
> 
> This is the "dz" character.
> 
>     >>> '\u01f1'.title()
>     '\u01f2'
> 
> This is the "Dz" character.
> 
> When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
> calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.
> 
But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, 
but not really satisfactory.


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 11:54:10 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:54:10 -0500
Subject: Looking for people interested in a Python register virtual machine
 project
Message-ID: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>

Back in the late 90s (!) I worked on a reimagining of the Python
virtual machine as a register-based VM based on 1.5.2. I got part of
the way with that, but never completed it. In the early 2010s, Victor
Stinner got much further using 3.4 as a base. The idea (and dormant
code) has been laying around in my mind (and computers) these past
couple decades, so I took another swing at it starting in late 2019
after retirement, mostly as a way to keep my head in the game. While I
got a fair bit of the way, it stalled. I've picked it up and put it
down a number of times in the past year, often needing to resolve
conflicts because of churn in the current Python virtual machine.
Though I kept getting things back in sync, I realize this is not a
one-person project, at least not this one person. There are several
huge chunks of Python I've ignored over the past 20 years, and not
just the internals. (I've never used async anything, for example.) If
it is ever to truly be a viable demonstration of the concept, I will
need help. I forked the CPython repo and have a branch (register2) of
said fork which is currently synced up with the 3.10 (currently
master) branch:

https://github.com/smontanaro/cpython/tree/register2

I started on what could only very generously be called a PEP which you
can read here. It includes some of the history of this work as well as
details about what I've managed to do so far:

https://github.com/smontanaro/cpython/blob/register2/pep-9999.rst

If you think any of this is remotely interesting (whether or not you
think you'd like to help), please have a look at the "PEP". Because
this covers a fair bit of the CPython implementation, chances to
contribute in a number of areas exist, even if you have never delved
into Python's internals. Questions/comments/pull requests welcome.

Skip Montanaro

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 12:57:24 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:57:24 -0500
Subject: [Python-ideas] Looking for people interested in a Python register
 virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <CAEbHw4YeHUdJQBZNsr8tSC9h1h8OTshM37duthWtk_8FW+igWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEbHw4YeHUdJQBZNsr8tSC9h1h8OTshM37duthWtk_8FW+igWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5Uy07Ymu2sut-SR+V9ajXALbN=XkUsJZS_m04B_FEa7axA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I remember Parrot. As I understand it their original goal was a
language-agnostic virtual machine, which might have complicated things.

I will do a bit of reading and add some text to the "PEP."

Skip

On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:36 AM David Mertz <mertz at gnosis.cx> wrote:

> The Parrot project was also intended to be the same thing, and for a while
> had a fair number of contributors. Unfortunately, it never obtained the
> performance wins that were good for.
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021, 11:55 AM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Back in the late 90s (!) I worked on a reimagining of the Python
>> virtual machine as a register-based VM based on 1.5.2. I got part of
>> the way with that, but never completed it. In the early 2010s, Victor
>> Stinner got much further using 3.4 as a base. The idea (and dormant
>> code) has been laying around in my mind (and computers) these past
>> couple decades, so I took another swing at it starting in late 2019
>> after retirement, mostly as a way to keep my head in the game. While I
>> got a fair bit of the way, it stalled. I've picked it up and put it
>> down a number of times in the past year, often needing to resolve
>> conflicts because of churn in the current Python virtual machine.
>> Though I kept getting things back in sync, I realize this is not a
>> one-person project, at least not this one person. There are several
>> huge chunks of Python I've ignored over the past 20 years, and not
>> just the internals. (I've never used async anything, for example.) If
>> it is ever to truly be a viable demonstration of the concept, I will
>> need help. I forked the CPython repo and have a branch (register2) of
>> said fork which is currently synced up with the 3.10 (currently
>> master) branch:
>>
>> https://github.com/smontanaro/cpython/tree/register2
>>
>> I started on what could only very generously be called a PEP which you
>> can read here. It includes some of the history of this work as well as
>> details about what I've managed to do so far:
>>
>> https://github.com/smontanaro/cpython/blob/register2/pep-9999.rst
>>
>> If you think any of this is remotely interesting (whether or not you
>> think you'd like to help), please have a look at the "PEP". Because
>> this covers a fair bit of the CPython implementation, chances to
>> contribute in a number of areas exist, even if you have never delved
>> into Python's internals. Questions/comments/pull requests welcome.
>>
>> Skip Montanaro
>> _______________________________________________
>> Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas at python.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/
>> Message archived at
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas at python.org/message/IUKZPH4ZSZ22RZFKMITQ3Q6A22P4BXWX/
>> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>>
>

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 20 13:26:03 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 20 Mar 2021 17:26:03 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>

Mats Wichmann wrote:
> The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,

The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific assumptions
about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't get more
idiotic, frankly.

robert

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 15:49:05 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 06:49:05 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 4:31 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Mats Wichmann wrote:
> > The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
>
> The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
> much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific assumptions
> about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't get more
> idiotic, frankly.
>

The problem is that you haven't read the documentation :) It very
carefully does NOT define itself by language, and its behaviour is
identical regardless of the language used. Notably, it doesn't care
what script you're using, and will happily upper/lowercase letters in
a variety of different scripts, even in a single string.

ChrisA

From alan at csail.mit.edu  Sat Mar 20 16:56:53 2021
From: alan at csail.mit.edu (Alan Bawden)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 16:56:53 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>
 <mailman.160.1616241200.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <86h7l5ilwq.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>

Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> writes:

   Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
   >
   > When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
   > calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.
   >
   But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, but
   not really satisfactory.

Sorry, what I wrote was ambiguous.  What I _meant_ was that when you
replace x.title() with my_title(x) , then in the definition of my_title
you will be calling both .lower() and .title() on individual characters,
but you will probably _never_ be calling .upper().

-- 
Alan Bawden

From cs at cskk.id.au  Sat Mar 20 18:47:51 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:47:51 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>
References: <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>
Message-ID: <YFZ7l4PcoZ/O1Lpm@cskk.homeip.net>

On 20Mar2021 12:53, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
>Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
>>The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
>>because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
>>tells you how to map between them. [...]
>>
>But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, 
>but not really satisfactory.

Not to mention that the .title method _predates_ Python's use of Unicode 
in strings.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Sat Mar 20 19:18:33 2021
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:18:33 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>
 <YFZ7l4PcoZ/O1Lpm@cskk.homeip.net>
 <mailman.165.1616280479.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns5d0m9.4lq.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

On 2021-03-20, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> On 20Mar2021 12:53, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
>>Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
>>>The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
>>>because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
>>>tells you how to map between them. [...]
>>>
>>But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, 
>>but not really satisfactory.
>
> Not to mention that the .title method _predates_ Python's use of Unicode 
> in strings.

Well, it predates Python's use of Unicode in the default string type,
but not Python's use of Unicode in strings.

https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/4c08d554b9009899780a5e003d6bbeb5413906ee

From cs at cskk.id.au  Sat Mar 20 21:06:24 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 12:06:24 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <slrns5d0m9.4lq.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
References: <slrns5d0m9.4lq.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <YFacEIrrykpkJjDl@cskk.homeip.net>

On 20Mar2021 23:18, Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> wrote:
>On 2021-03-20, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>> Not to mention that the .title method _predates_ Python's use of 
>> Unicode
>> in strings.
>
>Well, it predates Python's use of Unicode in the default string type,
>but not Python's use of Unicode in strings.
>
>https://github.com/python/cpython/commit/4c08d554b9009899780a5e003d6bbeb5413906ee

Thank you for this correction. Cheers, Cameron

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 07:27:02 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 21 Mar 2021 11:27:02 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 4:31 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
><python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Mats Wichmann wrote:
>> > The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
>>
>> The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
>> much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific
>> assumptions about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't
>> get more idiotic, frankly.
>>
>
> The problem is that you haven't read the documentation :) It very carefully
> does NOT define itself by language, and its behaviour is identical regardless
> of the language used.

The documentation says: "The algorithm uses a simple language-independent
definition of a word as groups of consecutive letters..."

Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes sense in the
English language. Which is also the reason they called it title() and not
capitalize_words(). Frankly, I can't think of any situation where this method
would have any use -- in any language, including English. It is just a
completely arbitrary feature, as would be a function that capitalizes only the
last letter of each word.

robert

From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Sun Mar 21 07:38:46 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 07:38:46 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>

>> The problem is that you haven't read the documentation :) It very carefully
>> does NOT define itself by language, and its behaviour is identical regardless
>> of the language used.
> 
> The documentation says: "The algorithm uses a simple language-independent
> definition of a word as groups of consecutive letters..."
> 
> Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes sense in the
> English language. Which is also the reason they called it title() and not
> capitalize_words(). Frankly, I can't think of any situation where this method
> would have any use -- in any language, including English. It is just a
> completely arbitrary feature, as would be a function that capitalizes only the
> last letter of each word.

I?m sorry Robert, but just because it doesn?t meet your requirements, doesn?t mean it?s useless.

I use .title to normalize strings for data comparison, all the time.  It?s a perfect alternative to
using .UPPER or .lower.  

Right in the documentation, it specifically acknowledges .title working in foreign character sets. 

So while I feel for the fact that it doesn?t met your requirements, please keep in mind, it does meet other peoples requirements.  

As with everything here, it?s open source.  If you feel that there should be a revised version that does met your requirements create it, or gather a bunch of people and go the route of SCANDIR and open-source it, and petition that it be moved into the standard library.

Since this seems to be bugging you this much, come up with a solution.  

I suspect the problem you are going to have is that in effect you?ll be creating a multi-language parser, even worse, you may have to add nameparsing into this.

Good luck.

	- Benjamin




From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 08:01:50 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 23:01:50 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:31 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 4:31 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
> ><python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mats Wichmann wrote:
> >> > The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
> >>
> >> The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
> >> much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific
> >> assumptions about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't
> >> get more idiotic, frankly.
> >>
> >
> > The problem is that you haven't read the documentation :) It very carefully
> > does NOT define itself by language, and its behaviour is identical regardless
> > of the language used.
>
> The documentation says: "The algorithm uses a simple language-independent
> definition of a word as groups of consecutive letters..."
>
> Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes sense in the
> English language.

Why? Do titles not exist in other languages? Does no other language
capitalize words in book or other titles?

ChrisA

From sjeik_appie at hotmail.com  Sun Mar 21 08:19:00 2021
From: sjeik_appie at hotmail.com (Albert-Jan Roskam)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 13:19:00 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <YFZ7l4PcoZ/O1Lpm@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <DB6PR01MB3895B9F8E0192AE776C7F15C83669@DB6PR01MB3895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>

   On 20 Mar 2021 23:47, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:

     On 20Mar2021 12:53, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
     >Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
     >>The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
     >>because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
     >>tells you how to map between them. [...]
     >>
     >But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented,
     >but not really satisfactory.

   ====
   This would be a good
   start: https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/capitalization/title-case
   It could be locale-dependent. What I also don't like about .title() is
   that it messes up abbreviations ("Oecd")

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Mar 21 08:37:14 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 08:37:14 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <DB6PR01MB3895B9F8E0192AE776C7F15C83669@DB6PR01MB3895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <DB6PR01MB3895B9F8E0192AE776C7F15C83669@DB6PR01MB3895.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <a255848d-3890-b376-3715-1fcf1e1e3d91@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/21/21 8:19 AM, Albert-Jan Roskam wrote:
>    On 20 Mar 2021 23:47, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>
>      On 20Mar2021 12:53, Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> wrote:
>      >Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
>      >>The real reason Python strings support a .title() method is surely
>      >>because Unicode supports upper, lower, _and_ title case letters, and
>      >>tells you how to map between them. [...]
>      >>
>      >But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented,
>      >but not really satisfactory.
>
>    ====
>    This would be a good
>    start: https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/capitalization/title-case
>    It could be locale-dependent. What I also don't like about .title() is
>    that it messes up abbreviations ("Oecd")

The built in title() function is basically an intentionally 80%
solution. It handles the simple cases simply, and if you might have the
more complicated cases, you have to handle that yourself because to
specify what the 'right' answer would be is basically impossible to do
in general (because there are conflicting definitions, and some things
require context beyond what just its input provides).

-- 
Richard Damon


From boblatest at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 11:05:28 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 21 Mar 2021 15:05:28 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>

Benjamin Schollnick wrote:
>
> I?m sorry Robert, but just because it doesn?t meet your requirements, doesn?t
> mean it?s useless.
>
> I use .title to normalize strings for data comparison, all the time.  It?s a
> perfect alternative to using .UPPER or .lower.  
>
> Right in the documentation, it specifically acknowledges .title working in
> foreign character sets. 
>
> So while I feel for the fact that it doesn?t met your requirements, please
> keep in mind, it does meet other peoples requirements.  
>
> As with everything here, it?s open source.  If you feel that there should be
> a revised version that does met your requirements create it, or gather a
> bunch of people and go the route of SCANDIR and open-source it, and petition
> that it be moved into the standard library.
>
> Since this seems to be bugging you this much, come up with a solution.  

I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But wouldn't
you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to appear in the
very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?

robert

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 21 11:12:12 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 21 Mar 2021 15:12:12 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:31 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
><python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes sense in
>> the English language.
>
> Why? Do titles not exist in other languages? Does no other language
> capitalize words in book or other titles?

I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language. It doesn't in
English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it is there in
the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special capitalization rules
for titles; I don't know about any other languages. 

robert

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 11:26:30 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 02:26:30 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:31 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
> ><python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >> Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes sense in
> >> the English language.
> >
> > Why? Do titles not exist in other languages? Does no other language
> > capitalize words in book or other titles?
>
> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language. It doesn't in
> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it is there in
> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special capitalization rules
> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
>

It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
already. Attempting to do this with upper() or lower() will give
incorrect results. So if you want to define language-specific rules
(maybe with a regex) for splitting into words and subwords, you can
then use title() and lower() to perform the actual changes.

Treat it as a building-block rather than as a magical "do what I want"
function, and it is incredibly useful, and in fact, is the only way to
be correct.

ChrisA

From pbryan at anode.ca  Sun Mar 21 12:16:58 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:16:58 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d01785593459a-c44f7c21-7fa0-4294-bf14-8b2915162a78-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

The topic of titles is complex, and would be significant undertaking to
automate. It's not only highly language-dependent, it's also based on
the subject work itself, and subject to guidelines of those charged
with indexing such works.

MusicBrainz guidelines:
https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style/Titles
https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Style#Language_specific_guidelines

Wikipedia guidelines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(capitalization)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Titles#Capital_letters

Addressing such complexities isn't going to be baked into the
simplistic `str.title` method. As demonstrated by the OP, it will
almost certainly come up short, even in the simplest use case. I
suggest the best approach then is to find (or write) a module that
addresses the specific use case, not try to address such shortcomings
in `str`.

Paul

On Sun, 2021-03-21 at 23:01 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 10:31 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 4:31 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
> > > <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Mats Wichmann wrote:
> > > > > The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
> > > > 
> > > > The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title()
> > > > method to too
> > > > much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes
> > > > specific
> > > > assumptions about a specific use case of one specific language.
> > > > It doesn't
> > > > get more idiotic, frankly.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > The problem is that you haven't read the documentation :) It very
> > > carefully
> > > does NOT define itself by language, and its behaviour is
> > > identical regardless
> > > of the language used.
> > 
> > The documentation says: "The algorithm uses a simple language-
> > independent
> > definition of a word as groups of consecutive letters..."
> > 
> > Yes, I get that. But the purpose it (improperly) serves only makes
> > sense in the
> > English language.
> 
> Why? Do titles not exist in other languages? Does no other language
> capitalize words in book or other titles?
> 
> ChrisA


From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Sun Mar 21 14:39:04 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 14:39:04 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>


> I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But wouldn't
> you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to appear in the
> very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?

No, because it book ends the issue.

Upper - Converts everything to uppercase
Lower - Converts everything to lowercase

Title - Covers the cases in-between upper/lower.  

I?ll agree that if title was to respect language definitions, that there would be a problem here?  But it specifically states otherwise.

And as I mentioned the sheer amount of work that would be needed would probably cover a phd dissertation or more?  It?s a huge problem set to respect one language, let alone all languages.  

So the only answer is to not respect the languages, and leave that up to a later implementation or for someone else to assist in adding in support.

Heck, how do we prevent it from titlecasing abbreviations?  (This is plain text not XML?.  If it was XML it would be easy!)

	- Benjamin



From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 15:01:44 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 15:01:44 -0400
Subject: thought
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=jKny2rcsHg0gZ3uT_w=NpRfOExeLRSej+4mXJi_oXcKQ@mail.gmail.com>

I had a recent thought about someone's wifi/network connection and password.
Could it be possible to create a program that will randomize a new password
every 24 hours (letters and numbers) and when the program is opened (or
notification would be sent) you can see the new password to log into the
wifi?
If so what would be required to do this, and what skillset would you need
to write this code if possible. If this isn't possible with python, then
what program is it possible with?

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 15:04:07 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:04:07 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoF1nTTs5hL482hi67jM_80=8eGQM_ObC+uHisLFC8TQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 5:40 AM Benjamin Schollnick
<bschollnick at schollnick.net> wrote:
> Heck, how do we prevent it from titlecasing abbreviations?  (This is plain text not XML?.  If it was XML it would be easy!)

We haven't managed to teach humans how to do that, so I doubt we'll
ever teach a simple standard library function to do it.

*cough*XMLHttpRequest*cough*

ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 15:08:43 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:08:43 +1100
Subject: thought
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=jKny2rcsHg0gZ3uT_w=NpRfOExeLRSej+4mXJi_oXcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=jKny2rcsHg0gZ3uT_w=NpRfOExeLRSej+4mXJi_oXcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrBr_3yDcE9wJuqPWhBO_oFDc-v5meG+HvTPwmdS_e2Vg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 6:03 AM Quentin Bock <qberz2005 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I had a recent thought about someone's wifi/network connection and password.
> Could it be possible to create a program that will randomize a new password
> every 24 hours (letters and numbers) and when the program is opened (or
> notification would be sent) you can see the new password to log into the
> wifi?
> If so what would be required to do this, and what skillset would you need
> to write this code if possible. If this isn't possible with python, then
> what program is it possible with?

Generating passwords is easy. How do you manage the logins though? Is
it going to involve reconfiguring the wifi router? If so, you'll need
knowledge specifically about the router you're working with.

For the basic idea of "a new password every X time", I'd recommend
looking into Time-based One-Time Passwords or TOTPs. They're often
used for two-factor authentication (those things that say "enter this
six-digit number" are usually TOTPs), and for that purpose, they
usually cycle about every minute or thereabouts; but the same ideas
would apply to a daily password too.

ChrisA

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Mar 21 16:47:31 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:47:31 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
Message-ID: <743110f0-1846-e72b-fef2-a89be37e4634@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/21/21 2:39 PM, Benjamin Schollnick wrote:
>> I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But wouldn't
>> you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to appear in the
>> very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?
> No, because it book ends the issue.
>
> Upper - Converts everything to uppercase
> Lower - Converts everything to lowercase
>
> Title - Covers the cases in-between upper/lower.  
>
> I?ll agree that if title was to respect language definitions, that there would be a problem here?  But it specifically states otherwise.
>
> And as I mentioned the sheer amount of work that would be needed would probably cover a phd dissertation or more?  It?s a huge problem set to respect one language, let alone all languages.  
>
> So the only answer is to not respect the languages, and leave that up to a later implementation or for someone else to assist in adding in support.
>
> Heck, how do we prevent it from titlecasing abbreviations?  (This is plain text not XML?.  If it was XML it would be easy!)
>
> 	- Benjamin

One important thing to remember is that there ARE a few characters that
are themselves 'Title case', so we can't live with just upper and lower.
These all are 'digraphs', i.e. look like two letters, but this glyph
does act as a single character for many purposes. One example that has
been given is ? which is different than Dz.

-- 
Richard Damon


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 15:13:00 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 19:13:00 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <s35hfs$7dd$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-20, Robert Latest via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> Mats Wichmann wrote:
>> The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
>
> The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
> much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific assumptions
> about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't get more
> idiotic, frankly.

Ah, you've never used PHP then?

I haven't checked but it's a fair bit that PHP has 3-4 different
built-in ways to do it, and they're all broken in interestingly
unpredictable ways.

--
Grant




From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 17:16:38 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 21:16:38 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXk7Y4+yD2j6_N32a9SGzCKYdJudOSeBEQ1QnPUvF4_Qag@mail.gmail.com>
 <YFWNp04paUgxGFPq@cskk.homeip.net>
 <CADrxXX=QNs48216gtr8YKMtRjA_MOV9ZXij7aN6strEpFZs_UA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.158.1616220469.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86lfaii5qd.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
 <2604a13e-10fa-da78-f646-e639e6f8ff0f@web.de>
 <mailman.160.1616241200.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <86h7l5ilwq.fsf@williamsburg.bawden.org>
Message-ID: <s35onm$8t4$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-20, Alan Bawden <alan at csail.mit.edu> wrote:
> Sibylle Koczian <nulla.epistola at web.de> writes:
>
>    Am 20.03.2021 um 09:34 schrieb Alan Bawden:
>    >
>    > When you write that code to capitalize your book titles, you should be
>    > calling .title() rather than .upper() if you are doing it right.
>    >
>    But that's exactly what he's doing, with a result which is documented, but
>    not really satisfactory.
>
> Sorry, what I wrote was ambiguous.  What I _meant_ was that when you
> replace x.title() with my_title(x) , then in the definition of my_title
> you will be calling both .lower() and .title() on individual characters,
> but you will probably _never_ be calling .upper().

Does Python have any way to convert a character to titlecase? The
documentation for .title() explicitly states that it will convert a
character to upper case, not to title case.

--
Grant





From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 11:51:52 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 15:51:52 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
>> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language. It doesn't in
>> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it is there in
>> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special capitalization rules
>> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
>>
>
> It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
> already.

Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
wrong?

If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
(again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
case (starting in v3.8).

--
Grant



From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 16:24:54 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 16:24:54 -0400
Subject: thought
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=hJuY9pWMTZjOHxdOkqHDSNQgAMKhH0SnKg7vXjMeQXFw@mail.gmail.com>

Note: Previous comments have been made on this, this is my reply to another
response of this question.
I would have it so, the "admin" of the program would be able to change if
devices are allowed on that network, and would also be able to remove and
make certain devices always receive a password to input. It would not
involve reconfiguring the router, it would involve the devices attempting
to connect to it, but it wouldn't reconfigure the router itself; this would
merely provide another layer of security upon your wifi. I think that
certain features might rely on the reconfiguration of the router, but for
my question no I don't think it would.


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From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Sun Mar 21 18:20:38 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 18:20:38 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoF1nTTs5hL482hi67jM_80=8eGQM_ObC+uHisLFC8TQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <CAPTjJmoF1nTTs5hL482hi67jM_80=8eGQM_ObC+uHisLFC8TQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76741A4D-7903-405E-B019-B7964003FED3@schollnick.net>

>> Heck, how do we prevent it from titlecasing abbreviations?  (This is plain text not XML?.  If it was XML it would be easy!)
> 
> We haven't managed to teach humans how to do that, so I doubt we'll
> ever teach a simple standard library function to do it.
> 
> *cough*XMLHttpRequest*cough*

True, but I was thinking that it would be easy in XML because the XML/HTML would be able to have metadata helping to define the components in the text stream.  

And this is probably more of a pseduo-html, but that?s because I do more work in HTML then I do in pure XML.  XML I usually just tell the system to output, instead of craft by hand?  

<textstring language=US_English>
blah blah this is a sentence that has the abbreviation <abbreviation>NASA</abbreviation> in it.
</textstring>

But that doesn?t help title, because it only handles pure plaintext.  

As many people have pointed out, or I think they meant to point out, there is no place in the text string to put metadata that would help assist parsing the string.  By definition the text can?t have metadata, since it?s plaintext.  

	- Benjamin



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 18:30:08 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 09:30:08 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
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 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:04 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language. It doesn't in
> >> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it is there in
> >> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special capitalization rules
> >> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
> >>
> >
> > It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
> > already.
>
> Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
> first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
> wrong?
>
> If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
> (again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
> case (starting in v3.8).
>

Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Mar 21 19:31:54 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 23:31:54 +0000
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
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 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-21 22:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:04 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language. It doesn't in
>> >> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it is there in
>> >> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special capitalization rules
>> >> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
>> >>
>> >
>> > It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
>> > already.
>>
>> Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
>> first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
>> wrong?
>>
>> If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
>> (again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
>> case (starting in v3.8).
>>
> 
> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
> 
Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928 64 
bit (AMD64)] on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> help(str.title)
Help on method_descriptor:

title(self, /)
     Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.

     More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and all 
remaining
     cased characters have lower case.

'\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and '\N{LATIN 
CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so is it 
correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character? Kind of.

From tim at akwebsoft.com  Sun Mar 21 19:13:48 2021
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 15:13:48 -0800
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
Message-ID: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>

Using ubuntu 20.04 as a recent install
with python3 (3.8.5) which was installed as part of the
original distribution install
and
python2 (2.7.18) that has been installed using apt.

I have a large amount of utilities written in python2 which I need to 
maintain
until I convert that code to python3

I see numerous caveats regarding the installing of pips for both these 
versions.

I would welcome advice on how to proceed which could very well be 
accomplished
by links to relevant discussions or documentation.

thanks
-- 

Tim
tj49.com


From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Mar 21 21:14:05 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 01:14:05 +0000
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
In-Reply-To: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
References: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
Message-ID: <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>

Tn 2021-03-21 23:13, Tim Johnson wrote:
> Using ubuntu 20.04 as a recent install
> with python3 (3.8.5) which was installed as part of the
> original distribution install
> and
> python2 (2.7.18) that has been installed using apt.
> 
> I have a large amount of utilities written in python2 which I need to
> maintain
> until I convert that code to python3
> 
> I see numerous caveats regarding the installing of pips for both these
> versions.
> 
> I would welcome advice on how to proceed which could very well be
> accomplished
> by links to relevant discussions or documentation.
> 
I'd suggest using the pip module:

python2 -m pip

and:

python3 -m pip

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Mar 21 21:25:06 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 21:25:06 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <27ed35df-4be6-6bfd-2ed3-f9b287c10967@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/21/21 7:31 PM, MRAB wrote:
> On 2021-03-21 22:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:04 AM Grant Edwards
>> <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language.
>>> It doesn't in
>>> >> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it
>>> is there in
>>> >> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special
>>> capitalization rules
>>> >> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
>>> > already.
>>>
>>> Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
>>> first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
>>> wrong?
>>>
>>> If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
>>> (again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
>>> case (starting in v3.8).
>>>
>>
>> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
>> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
>>
> Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928
> 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> help(str.title)
> Help on method_descriptor:
>
> title(self, /)
> ??? Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.
>
> ??? More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and all
> remaining
> ??? cased characters have lower case.
>
> '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and
> '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so
> is it correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character?
> Kind of.

I think the clarification calling them upper cased characters is close
enough considering that there are only 31 title cased characters, all
digraphs.

-- 
Richard Damon


From drsalists at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 21:44:18 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 18:44:18 -0700
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
In-Reply-To: <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
 <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_pEc_OHKSXif-oe-d-cW7UC9SwwwXAku4da0LDbvQa2bw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:14 PM MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:

> Tn 2021-03-21 23:13, Tim Johnson wrote:
> > Using ubuntu 20.04 as a recent install
> > with python3 (3.8.5) which was installed as part of the
> > original distribution install
> > and
> > python2 (2.7.18) that has been installed using apt.
> >
> > I have a large amount of utilities written in python2 which I need to
> > maintain
> > until I convert that code to python3
> >
> > I see numerous caveats regarding the installing of pips for both these
> > versions.
> >
> > I would welcome advice on how to proceed which could very well be
> > accomplished
> > by links to relevant discussions or documentation.
> >
> I'd suggest using the pip module:
>
> python2 -m pip
>
> and:
>
> python3 -m pip
>
I agree with this advice.

Here's a more complete example:
python3 -m pip install treap

From tim at akwebsoft.com  Sun Mar 21 21:34:24 2021
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 17:34:24 -0800
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
In-Reply-To: <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
 <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <c59095a1-79bd-ea76-4118-b21862e9d04e@akwebsoft.com>


On 3/21/21 5:14 PM, MRAB wrote:
> Tn 2021-03-21 23:13, Tim Johnson wrote:
>> Using ubuntu 20.04 as a recent install
>> with python3 (3.8.5) which was installed as part of the
>> original distribution install
>> and
>> python2 (2.7.18) that has been installed using apt.
>>
>> I have a large amount of utilities written in python2 which I need to
>> maintain
>> until I convert that code to python3
>>
>> I see numerous caveats regarding the installing of pips for both these
>> versions.
>>
>> I would welcome advice on how to proceed which could very well be
>> accomplished
>> by links to relevant discussions or documentation.
>>
> I'd suggest using the pip module:
>
> python2 -m pip
>
> and:
>
> python3 -m pip
Understood. In addition, I 'm pretty sure that all I need to do is
copy dist-utils from my old machine to the new one. The python2
versions of the two machines are very close.

thank you MRAB

-- 
Tim
tj49.com


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 22:28:23 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:28:23 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <27ed35df-4be6-6bfd-2ed3-f9b287c10967@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <27ed35df-4be6-6bfd-2ed3-f9b287c10967@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrzRRMdFiKWgXgkBMa_0ngK953x_JVR5_=jWhE7zBy5Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:26 PM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/21/21 7:31 PM, MRAB wrote:
> > On 2021-03-21 22:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:04 AM Grant Edwards
> >> <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
> >>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language.
> >>> It doesn't in
> >>> >> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it
> >>> is there in
> >>> >> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special
> >>> capitalization rules
> >>> >> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> > It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
> >>> > already.
> >>>
> >>> Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
> >>> first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
> >>> wrong?
> >>>
> >>> If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
> >>> (again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
> >>> case (starting in v3.8).
> >>>
> >>
> >> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
> >> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
> >>
> > Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928
> > 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> help(str.title)
> > Help on method_descriptor:
> >
> > title(self, /)
> >     Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.
> >
> >     More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and all
> > remaining
> >     cased characters have lower case.
> >
> > '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and
> > '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so
> > is it correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character?
> > Kind of.
>
> I think the clarification calling them upper cased characters is close
> enough considering that there are only 31 title cased characters, all
> digraphs.
>

But it's wrong, and it would lead people to the exact error of
thinking that it's the same as upper() on str[0] and lower() on the
rest.

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sun Mar 21 22:42:53 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 02:42:53 +0000
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
In-Reply-To: <c59095a1-79bd-ea76-4118-b21862e9d04e@akwebsoft.com>
References: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
 <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <c59095a1-79bd-ea76-4118-b21862e9d04e@akwebsoft.com>
Message-ID: <1baa3b60-e6a9-6f04-d36b-bab4addddd52@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-22 01:34, Tim Johnson wrote:
> 
> On 3/21/21 5:14 PM, MRAB wrote:
>> Tn 2021-03-21 23:13, Tim Johnson wrote:
>>> Using ubuntu 20.04 as a recent install
>>> with python3 (3.8.5) which was installed as part of the
>>> original distribution install
>>> and
>>> python2 (2.7.18) that has been installed using apt.
>>>
>>> I have a large amount of utilities written in python2 which I need to
>>> maintain
>>> until I convert that code to python3
>>>
>>> I see numerous caveats regarding the installing of pips for both these
>>> versions.
>>>
>>> I would welcome advice on how to proceed which could very well be
>>> accomplished
>>> by links to relevant discussions or documentation.
>>>
>> I'd suggest using the pip module:
>>
>> python2 -m pip
>>
>> and:
>>
>> python3 -m pip
> Understood. In addition, I 'm pretty sure that all I need to do is
> copy dist-utils from my old machine to the new one. The python2
> versions of the two machines are very close.
> 
> thank you MRAB
> 
By "very close", I hope you mean that they're both Python 2.7.x.

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Sun Mar 21 22:59:24 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 22:59:24 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrzRRMdFiKWgXgkBMa_0ngK953x_JVR5_=jWhE7zBy5Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <27ed35df-4be6-6bfd-2ed3-f9b287c10967@Damon-Family.org>
 <CAPTjJmrzRRMdFiKWgXgkBMa_0ngK953x_JVR5_=jWhE7zBy5Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <baf3f67c-7538-5621-df4e-5a236619da1a@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/21/21 10:28 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 12:26 PM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org> wrote:
>> On 3/21/21 7:31 PM, MRAB wrote:
>>> On 2021-03-21 22:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:04 AM Grant Edwards
>>>> <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-03-21, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:16 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
>>>>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if .title() properly capitalizes titles in any language.
>>>>> It doesn't in
>>>>>>> English (nor does it purport to), so it begs the question why it
>>>>> is there in
>>>>>>> the first place. German and Spanish don't have any special
>>>>> capitalization rules
>>>>>>> for titles; I don't know about any other languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It correctly title-cases a single character, as has been pointed out
>>>>>> already.
>>>>> Not according to the docs. The doc states that .title() converts the
>>>>> first character characger in each "word" to _upper_ case. Is the doc
>>>>> wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want titlecase, then you should call str.capitalize() which
>>>>> (again according to the doc) converts the first character to _title_
>>>>> case (starting in v3.8).
>>>>>
>>>> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
>>>> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
>>>>
>>> Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928
>>> 64 bit (AMD64)] on win32
>>> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>>> help(str.title)
>>> Help on method_descriptor:
>>>
>>> title(self, /)
>>>     Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.
>>>
>>>     More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and all
>>> remaining
>>>     cased characters have lower case.
>>>
>>> '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and
>>> '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so
>>> is it correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character?
>>> Kind of.
>> I think the clarification calling them upper cased characters is close
>> enough considering that there are only 31 title cased characters, all
>> digraphs.
>>
> But it's wrong, and it would lead people to the exact error of
> thinking that it's the same as upper() on str[0] and lower() on the
> rest.
>
> ChrisA

If it didn't mention that it was generating a 'titlecase' that could be
an argument, but since for 99.99% of characters Title Casing is
identical to upper case (and that character IS called the upper case),
but for the 31 listed digraphs, it means the titlecase version of that
digraph where the first 'letter' in the digraph is like the upper case
of its equivalent, and the second 'letter' in the digraph is like the
lower case of its equivalent.

Basically, titlecasing a word IS making the first letter upper case and
the rest lower case UNLESS the first letter is on of the 31 digraphs
which have a special titlecase version, then that is used for the first
letter. That gets pretty wordy for an explanation string.

-- 
Richard Damon


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 23:17:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:17:18 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <baf3f67c-7538-5621-df4e-5a236619da1a@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
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 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
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 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <27ed35df-4be6-6bfd-2ed3-f9b287c10967@Damon-Family.org>
 <CAPTjJmrzRRMdFiKWgXgkBMa_0ngK953x_JVR5_=jWhE7zBy5Ww@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoYRyUdJmJKuWjX_F7FGqESeDGYxaoOeaUHkcD5=09CoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:00 PM Richard Damon <Richard at damon-family.org> wrote:
> Basically, titlecasing a word IS making the first letter upper case and
> the rest lower case UNLESS the first letter is on of the 31 digraphs
> which have a special titlecase version, then that is used for the first
> letter. That gets pretty wordy for an explanation string.

It title cases. I don't understand what's a problem here. With
str.casefold(), there's no detailed explanation of how it's usually
equivalent to lowercasing - it just says that it returns a string
suitable for caseless comparisons. Unicode defines many things about
characters, and often the differences don't matter to a large subset
of those characters, but the differences exist for a reason, and lying
in the docstring isn't going to help anything.

It doesn't "uppercase unless it's one of this small group of
characters". It "title cases".

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 05:22:51 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 09:22:51 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>

Benjamin Schollnick wrote:
>
>> I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But
>> wouldn't you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to
>> appear in the very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?
>
> No, because it book ends the issue.
>
> Upper - Converts everything to uppercase Lower - Converts everything to
> lowercase
>
> Title - Covers the cases in-between upper/lower.  

My only issue is that I completely fail to see how this function would be
useful enough to warrant the inclusion into the *core* of a general-purpose
language, including its misleading name. The fact that the function's behavior
is correctly documented doesn't make its very existence less bewildering to me.
Consider this function:

def add_seventeen(n): '''Return n with 16.8 added''' return n + 16.8

It's like .title(): It does almost the thing its name suggests, it is correctly
documented, it is useful to anybody who happens to want 16.8 added to numbers,
and it might erroneously be used by someone who wants exactly 17 added and
didn't bother to read the docs.

> And as I mentioned the sheer amount of work that would be needed would
> probably cover a phd dissertation or more?  It?s a huge problem set to
> respect one language, let alone all languages.  

And that's why I believe that such a function should be delegated to a natural
language-processing library and not the core of Python.

> So the only answer is to not respect the languages, and leave that up to a
> later implementation or for someone else to assist in adding in support.

And that too.

> Heck, how do we prevent it from titlecasing abbreviations?  (This is plain
> text not XML?.  If it was XML it would be easy!)

And that too.

BTW I have no beef with the person who invented .title() nor with anybody who
uses it. I know that everybody can join the Python development community and
propose the removal of .title() and the inclusion of add_seventeen(). That
said, I doubt that .title() would make it into Python today if it weren't there
already. I'm having fun with this.

robert

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 05:29:29 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 09:29:29 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net> <s35hfs$7dd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <mailman.178.1616363785.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibr6bpFt3k6U2@mid.individual.net>

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2021-03-20, Robert Latest via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>> Mats Wichmann wrote:
>>> The problem is that there isn't a standard for title case,
>>
>> The problem is that we owe the very existence of the .title() method to too
>> much weed being smoked during Python development. It makes specific
>> assumptions about a specific use case of one specific language. It doesn't
>> get more idiotic, frankly.
>
> Ah, you've never used PHP then?
>
> I haven't checked but it's a fair bit that PHP has 3-4 different built-in
> ways to do it, and they're all broken in interestingly unpredictable ways.

I believe that 100%. PHP is the reason I switched to Python/WSGI, and I'm
loving it. 

robert

From Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net  Mon Mar 22 05:38:41 2021
From: Karsten.Hilbert at gmx.net (Karsten Hilbert)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 10:38:41 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <YFhloWnsTAsfSgeP@hermes.hilbert.loc>

Am Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 09:22:51AM +0000 schrieb Robert Latest via Python-list:

> >> I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But
> >> wouldn't you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to
> >> appear in the very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?
> >
> > No, because it book ends the issue.
> >
> > Upper - Converts everything to uppercase Lower - Converts everything to
> > lowercase
> >
> > Title - Covers the cases in-between upper/lower.
>
> My only issue is that I completely fail to see how this function would be
> useful enough to warrant the inclusion into the *core* of a general-purpose
> language, including its misleading name. The fact that the function's behavior
> is correctly documented doesn't make its very existence less bewildering to me.

Its naming may be unfortunate, its existence may be
bewildering. However, it's now there, and for historical
reasons, supposedly.

It won't be removed or renamed in all likelihood. The best
one can do is to suggest a documentation patch (not fix)
like so:

	The algorithm uses a simple language-independent

		[...] and context-naive, not locale related, [...]

	definition of a word [...]

and life with that wart.

Karsten
--
GPG  40BE 5B0E C98E 1713 AFA6  5BC0 3BEA AC80 7D4F C89B

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 05:49:16 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 20:49:16 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 8:26 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Benjamin Schollnick wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with everything you say. Especially the open source part. But
> >> wouldn't you agree that .title() with all its arbitrary specificity to
> >> appear in the very core of a general purpose language is quite an oddity?
> >
> > No, because it book ends the issue.
> >
> > Upper - Converts everything to uppercase Lower - Converts everything to
> > lowercase
> >
> > Title - Covers the cases in-between upper/lower.
>
> My only issue is that I completely fail to see how this function would be
> useful enough to warrant the inclusion into the *core* of a general-purpose
> language, including its misleading name. The fact that the function's behavior
> is correctly documented doesn't make its very existence less bewildering to me.
> Consider this function:
>
> def add_seventeen(n): '''Return n with 16.8 added''' return n + 16.8
>
> It's like .title(): It does almost the thing its name suggests, it is correctly
> documented, it is useful to anybody who happens to want 16.8 added to numbers,
> and it might erroneously be used by someone who wants exactly 17 added and
> didn't bother to read the docs.

If you still, after all these posts, have not yet understood that
title-casing *a single character* is a significant thing, then please
do not continue to complain about language design. Without this
method, how do you correctly title-case one character? What do you
use? upper()? lower()? casefold()?

> BTW I have no beef with the person who invented .title() nor with anybody who
> uses it. I know that everybody can join the Python development community and
> propose the removal of .title() and the inclusion of add_seventeen(). That
> said, I doubt that .title() would make it into Python today if it weren't there
> already. I'm having fun with this.
>

I'm glad you're having fun, because being wrong can be a lot of unfun sometimes.

I'm done arguing with you. You're a brick wall and you refuse to
comprehend Unicode. The method was not invented for ASCII.

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 06:06:34 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 10:06:34 GMT
Subject: How to set up a 'listening' Unix domain socket
Message-ID: <ibr8haFt3k6U3@mid.individual.net>

Hello,

I'm trying to set up a server that receives data on a Unix domain socket using
the code below.

import os from socketserver import UnixStreamServer, StreamRequestHandler

SOCKET = '/tmp/test.socket'

class Handler(StreamRequestHandler):

    def handle(self): data = selr.rfile.read() print(data)

if os.path.exists(SOCKET): os.unlink(SOCKET) with UnixStreamServer(SOCKET,
    Handler) as server: server.serve_forever()


However, when I try to send somthing to that socket, I get this error message:

$ echo "Hello" | socat - UNIX-SENDTO:/tmp/test.socket 2021/03/22 11:03:22
socat[2188] E sendto(5, 0x55a22f414990, 6, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/test.socket", 18):
Protocol wrong type for socket

I don't understand that error. Here's /tmp/test.socket:

$ stat /tmp/test.socket
  File: ?/tmp/test.socket?
  Size: 0               Blocks: 0          IO Block: 4096   socket
Device: fd00h/64768d    Inode: 201443577   Links: 1
Access: (0775/srwxrwxr-x)  Uid: ( 1001/      dh)   Gid: ( 1001/      dh)
Context: unconfined_u:object_r:user_tmp_t:s0
Access: 2021-03-22 09:47:49.516298102 +0100
Modify: 2021-03-22 09:47:49.516298102 +0100
Change: 2021-03-22 09:47:49.516298102 +0100
 Birth: -

Sadly all examples I can find on the web are for TCP sockets, not Unix domain.

Any tips?
robert

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 06:17:55 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 10:17:55 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> If you still, after all these posts, have not yet understood that
> title-casing *a single character* is a significant thing,

I must admit I have no idea what title-casing even is, but I'm eager to learn.
The documentation only talks about "words" and "first characters" and
"remaining characters." So a single character gets converted to uppercase,
whatever that may mean in the context of .title(). The .upper() method is
different in that it only applies to "cased" characters, so .title() may or may
not work differently on single characters. 

robert

From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Mon Mar 22 06:47:12 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 06:47:12 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CADrxXXkyxxADUZVYHew490hTf66L5opdCo=c8hSUtOyhR6AfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <8A07C5B4-12A3-4253-B597-54B4CE420BB2@schollnick.net>

Robert,

I certainly see your point.  

> My only issue is that I completely fail to see how this function would be
> useful enough to warrant the inclusion into the *core* of a general-purpose
> language, including its misleading name.

But that?s where we have to disagree.

Sure, the name cold be a bit less ?misleading?, I guess we could petition to have it renamed to:

def nonlanguage_aware_title		or 	def	title_but_not_language_aware

But I?m sorry for the majority of us, we haven?t even realized that title wasn?t language aware.   That has to tell you something (mainly that we?ve never hit these problems).  

Now that doesn?t diminish your issue here.  

But you?re a programmer, people have already suggested someway to work around this with RE.

The other python specific might be to actually SPLIT on the ` symbol, title each segment returning from split, and the JOIN them together again.

Regarding the issue of THE in an actual title, I?d suggest that RE would be the best solution for that, it should be easy enough to come up with RE that?ll work for word ?xxx The xxx? and convert it to ?xxx the xxx?.  

> The fact that the function's behavior
> is correctly documented doesn't make its very existence less bewildering to me.

Okay, I don?t recall you actually accepting at how large of a problem you are asking title to address.

The standard library is not going to fix and solve everything, like Apple I would expect them to target ~90% of the functionality, and then let people grow and expand on it?s functionality.  (Sort of like my CSV wrapper)

title is roughly comparable to PHP?s ucwords.

Wow, perl takes the prize though, it?s called ucwords.

$foo = 'hello world!';
$foo = ucwords($foo);             // Hello World!

$bar = 'HELLO WORLD!';
$bar = ucwords($bar);             // HELLO WORLD!
$bar = ucwords(strtolower($bar)); // Hello World!

perl appears to only manipulate the characters that it?s changing, so if the string is already uppercase, then it?ll just look like the entire string is uppercase when it?s done.  

So honestly that?s a mostly useless function if you need to pass a lowercase string into it.

What?s in common here?  both perl and php also seem to take the ` as a word separator.  

Neither of them appear to be language aware.

> Consider this function:
> 
> def add_seventeen(n): '''Return n with 16.8 added''' return n + 16.8
> 
> It's like .title(): It does almost the thing its name suggests, it is correctly
> documented, it is useful to anybody who happens to want 16.8 added to numbers,
> and it might erroneously be used by someone who wants exactly 17 added and
> didn't bother to read the docs.

And would be laughed at significantly.  

I agree with your example, but I don?t consider it to be equivalent.  

title does at first, and second glance work as expected.  You have significantly higher expectations than we do, evidently.

At minimum, what I would suggest is come up with some test case examples, and toss that over to the python dev team.  Show them that this isn?t working as you expect, and see what they say.  

While there might be a few of the python developers on this list, I doubt it.  Instead bring this up in a productive manner.  Show the harm, and then show a solution.  A Proposed change, an alternative framework.

We can?t solve the problem, but if you present it properly, then maybe you can be part of the solution.

> 
>> And as I mentioned the sheer amount of work that would be needed would
>> probably cover a phd dissertation or more?  It?s a huge problem set to
>> respect one language, let alone all languages.  
> 
> And that's why I believe that such a function should be delegated to a natural
> language-processing library and not the core of Python.

I have to disagree.  While I might expect a better version in a natural language processing library, every programming language that I?m aware of except for BASIC, offers an equivalent to title, as long as they offer an equivalent to upper and lower.

Why should python not offer title in light of this?

> said, I doubt that .title() would make it into Python today if it weren't there
> already. I'm having fun with this.

Ah, so while being a bit serious, I?m reading a bit too much into this.  

At this point, it?s become an interesting thought experiment for you.  

Good luck,

		- Benjamin



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 07:17:31 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 22:17:31 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:21 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Chris Angelico wrote:
> > If you still, after all these posts, have not yet understood that
> > title-casing *a single character* is a significant thing,
>
> I must admit I have no idea what title-casing even is, but I'm eager to learn.

Now that's an attitude I like to see :)

> The documentation only talks about "words" and "first characters" and
> "remaining characters." So a single character gets converted to uppercase,
> whatever that may mean in the context of .title(). The .upper() method is
> different in that it only applies to "cased" characters, so .title() may or may
> not work differently on single characters.
>

There are a small number of characters which, when case folded, become
more than one character. The sharp S from German behaves thusly:

>>> "?".upper(), "?".lower(), "?".casefold(), "?".title()
('SS', '?', 'ss', 'Ss')
>>> "?".upper(), "?".lower(), "?".casefold(), "?".title()
('?', '?', 'ss', '?')

Serbian has another, although it can often be written with two
individual characters:

>>> "?".upper(), "?".lower(), "?".casefold(), "?".title()
('?', '?', '?', '?')
>>> ["U+%04X" % ord(x) for x in _]
['U+01C4', 'U+01C6', 'U+01C6', 'U+01C5']

Even in text that's in the Latin script (the one we use with English),
there are some ligatures that behave differently when titlecased:

>>> "?".upper(), "?".lower(), "?".casefold(), "?".title()
('FI', '?', 'fi', 'Fi')
>>> [" ".join("U+%04X" % ord(c) for c in x) for x in _]
['U+0046 U+0049', 'U+FB01', 'U+0066 U+0069', 'U+0046 U+0069']

Each of these inputs is a single character; some of them have
single-character outputs (and in the case of U+01C5, that's a specific
character that is exclusively titlecased), others have multiple.

The neat thing about Unicode is that you don't have to worry about
exactly which characters behave in which ways. You get methods that do
precisely what you need, as long as you choose the right method. For
case insensitive comparisons, there's casefold(), which is most
commonly the same as lower(), but not always; to find out if
something's a digit, use isdigit(); to fracture something into lines,
use splitlines(). They're all aware of the entire Unicode range, and
they'll reliably work even if future versions of Unicode introduce
more characters (although you might have to wait for Python to be
updated).

The documentation sometimes shorthands things with terms like "upper
case" and "lower case", but that's partly because being pedantically
correct in a docstring doesn't actually help anything, and the code
itself IS correct.

ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 07:26:55 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 22:26:55 +1100
Subject: How to set up a 'listening' Unix domain socket
In-Reply-To: <ibr8haFt3k6U3@mid.individual.net>
References: <ibr8haFt3k6U3@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoUQ+sCoeqp3tedn2_b4VOAEtqXbxBMG=OGE71Q1w-PEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:11 PM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm trying to set up a server that receives data on a Unix domain socket using
> the code below.
>
> import os from socketserver import UnixStreamServer, StreamRequestHandler
>
> SOCKET = '/tmp/test.socket'
>
> class Handler(StreamRequestHandler):
>
>     def handle(self): data = selr.rfile.read() print(data)
>
> if os.path.exists(SOCKET): os.unlink(SOCKET) with UnixStreamServer(SOCKET,
>     Handler) as server: server.serve_forever()

Hmm, your formatting's messed up, but the code looks fine to me. (Be
aware that you seem to have a "selr" where it should be "self".)

> However, when I try to send somthing to that socket, I get this error message:
>
> $ echo "Hello" | socat - UNIX-SENDTO:/tmp/test.socket 2021/03/22 11:03:22
> socat[2188] E sendto(5, 0x55a22f414990, 6, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/test.socket", 18):
> Protocol wrong type for socket
>

Not familiar with socat, but here's some simple Python code to trigger
your server:

>>> import socket
>>> sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_UNIX)
>>> sock.connect("/tmp/test.socket")
>>> sock.send(b"Hello, world")
12
>>> sock.close()
>>>

Once you close the socket, the request handler should respond.

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 07:43:51 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 11:43:51 GMT
Subject: How to set up a 'listening' Unix domain socket
References: <ibr8haFt3k6U3@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoUQ+sCoeqp3tedn2_b4VOAEtqXbxBMG=OGE71Q1w-PEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.198.1616412428.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibre7nFg4aU1@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> Hmm, your formatting's messed up, but the code looks fine to me. (Be aware
> that you seem to have a "selr" where it should be "self".)

Didn't catch that because my program didn't even get to that point ;-)

>
>> However, when I try to send somthing to that socket, I get this error
>> message:
>>
>> $ echo "Hello" | socat - UNIX-SENDTO:/tmp/test.socket 2021/03/22 11:03:22
>> socat[2188] E sendto(5, 0x55a22f414990, 6, 0, AF=1 "/tmp/test.socket", 18):
>> Protocol wrong type for socket
>>
>
> Not familiar with socat, but here's some simple Python code to trigger your
> server:
>
>>>> import socket sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_UNIX)
>>>> sock.connect("/tmp/test.socket") sock.send(b"Hello, world")
> 12
>>>> sock.close()
>>>>

Works perfectly, thanks! I'm probably not using socat right.

robert

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 09:58:28 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 13:58:28 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.197.1616411865.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> There are a small number of characters which, when case folded, become
> more than one character. The sharp S from German behaves thusly:
>
>>>> "?".upper(), "?".lower(), "?".casefold(), "?".title()
> ('SS', '?', 'ss', 'Ss')

Now we're getting somewhere. I'm a native German speaker and I can tell you
that this doesn't happen in the real world, simply because '?' never appears at
the beginning of a word and thus is never "title cased". The only occurence of
uppercase '?' is in all-caps text, which Python handles properly:

'bi?chen'.upper()
'BISSCHEN'

...that is, properly until 2008, when the capital '?' was officially introduced
into German ortography:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F#Capital_form
"Traditionally, ? did not have a capital form, although some type designers
introduced de facto capitalized variants of ?. In 2017, the Council for German
Orthography ultimately adopted capital ?, ?, into German orthography, ending a
long orthographic debate.[3] [...] The capital variant (U+1E9E ? LATIN CAPITAL
LETTER SHARP S) was encoded by ISO 10646 in 2008." So Python 3.6.8 is about 12
years behind.

As a German I also appreciate the reduced occurence of the letter combination
'SS'.

That said, the concept of "title casing" doesn't even exist in German. Titles
are spelt just like any regular sentence. I know only two definitions of the
concept "title case":

1) From Wikipedia
"Title case or headline case is a style of capitalization used for rendering
the titles of published works or works of art in English. [...]"

2) From Python (paraphrased):
"Perform an arbitrary (but defined) operation on the characters of a string."

I don't mind .title() being in Python. I would very much mind to be the person
in charge of maintaining it and having to port it into new versions of Python,
always keeping an eye on the evolution of Unicode or other standards (see
above).

It probably just comes down to me not being able to conjure up a single
sensible use case for .title() as well as the whole concept of "title casing"
in the context of a programming language.

> The neat thing about Unicode is 

[many things]

> The documentation sometimes shorthands things with terms like "upper
> case" and "lower case", but that's partly because being pedantically
> correct in a docstring doesn't actually help anything, and the code
> itself IS correct.

...but hard to maintain and useless. I just love to hate .title() ;-)

robert

From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 10:03:27 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 01:03:27 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.197.1616411865.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 1:01 AM Robert Latest via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
> I don't mind .title() being in Python. I would very much mind to be the person
> in charge of maintaining it and having to port it into new versions of Python,
> always keeping an eye on the evolution of Unicode or other standards (see
> above).
>
> It probably just comes down to me not being able to conjure up a single
> sensible use case for .title() as well as the whole concept of "title casing"
> in the context of a programming language.
>
> > The neat thing about Unicode is
>
> [many things]
>
> > The documentation sometimes shorthands things with terms like "upper
> > case" and "lower case", but that's partly because being pedantically
> > correct in a docstring doesn't actually help anything, and the code
> > itself IS correct.
>
> ...but hard to maintain and useless. I just love to hate .title() ;-)
>

Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here. It's
all built on top of the published Unicode data files. It's simply a
matter of updating to the latest version of the Unicode standard! :)

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 06:18:39 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 10:18:39 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net> <YFhloWnsTAsfSgeP@hermes.hilbert.loc>
 <mailman.194.1616405924.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibr97vFt3k6U5@mid.individual.net>

Karsten Hilbert wrote:
> and life with that wart.

Perfectly willing to as long as everybody agrees it's a wart ;-)

robert

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 09:07:34 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:07:34 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-21, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:

IMO, the doc is wrong.

>> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
>> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
> 
> Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928 64 
> bit (AMD64)] on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>> help(str.title)
> Help on method_descriptor:
>
> title(self, /)
>      Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.
>
>      More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and
>      all remaining cased characters have lower case.
>
> '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and '\N{LATIN 
> CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so is it 
> correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character? Kind of.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "character". In my mind, the
first character of string s is s[1], and I would then expect that

s.title()[1] == s[1].upper()

--
Grant



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 10:22:23 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 01:22:23 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 1:18 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-21, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
>
> IMO, the doc is wrong.
>
> >> Hmm, maybe it's different in 3.10, but the docs I'm seeing look fine.
> >> But maybe there's a better way to word it for both of them.
> >
> > Python 3.9.2 (tags/v3.9.2:1a79785, Feb 19 2021, 13:44:55) [MSC v.1928 64
> > bit (AMD64)] on win32
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
> >>>> help(str.title)
> > Help on method_descriptor:
> >
> > title(self, /)
> >      Return a version of the string where each word is titlecased.
> >
> >      More specifically, words start with uppercased characters and
> >      all remaining cased characters have lower case.
> >
> > '\N{LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ}', '\N{LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ}' and '\N{LATIN
> > CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z}' are all digraphs, so is it
> > correct to say that .title() uppercases the first character? Kind of.
>
> I guess it depends on what you mean by "character". In my mind, the
> first character of string s is s[1], and I would then expect that
>
> s.title()[1] == s[1].upper()
>

I presume you mean [0], but no, that's not the case. A single
character can titlecase to two characters, or to a single character
that isn't the same as if you uppercase or lowercase it. See examples
in previous post.

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 11:02:07 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 15:02:07 GMT
Subject: How to set up a 'listening' Unix domain socket
References: <ibr8haFt3k6U3@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoUQ+sCoeqp3tedn2_b4VOAEtqXbxBMG=OGE71Q1w-PEg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.198.1616412428.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibre7nFg4aU1@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <ibrprfF2ct9U1@mid.individual.net>

> Chris Angelico wrote:

[Helpful stuff]

I'm actually trying to implement a SocketHandler for a Python logger. However,
I can't get my handler on the client side to send anything. Do I need to
subclass logging.SocketHandler and fill the various methods with meaning? The
documentation doesn't say so.

I've noticed that when the server is not running, logging.SocketHandler creates
the socket. I don't understand why it would; isn't it the server's job to
create the socket?

################## CLIENT ############################

import socket
import pickle
from logging import getLogger
from logging.handlers import SocketHandler

SOCKET = '/tmp/test.socket'

# This doesn't send anything to the socket
_log = getLogger(__name__)
_log.addHandler(SocketHandler(None, SOCKET))
_log.error('Logging something')

# String gets sent to socket
sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_UNIX)
sock.connect(SOCKET)
sock.send(b"Hello, world")
sock.close()

# Pickled object works fine
sock = socket.socket(socket.AF_UNIX)
sock.connect(SOCKET)
sock.send(pickle.dumps(dict(a=1)))
sock.close()


################## SERVER ############################

import os
import pickle
from socketserver import UnixStreamServer, StreamRequestHandler

SOCKET = '/tmp/test.socket'

class Handler(StreamRequestHandler):

    def handle(self):
        data = self.rfile.read()
        try:
            obj = pickle.loads(data)
        except:
            print('Unpickled: ', data)
        else:
            print('Pickled: ', type(obj))

if os.path.exists(SOCKET):
    os.unlink(SOCKET)
with UnixStreamServer(SOCKET, Handler) as server:
    server.serve_forever()


From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 11:03:32 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 15:03:32 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.197.1616411865.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.199.1616421821.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net>

Chris Angelico wrote:
> Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here.

That's great because I'm actually having trouble with sending log messages over
the socket conection you helped me with, would you mind having a look?

Regards,
robert

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 10:38:30 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:38:30 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s3aa55$8t7$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-22, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 1:18 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I guess it depends on what you mean by "character". In my mind, the
>> first character of string s is s[1], and I would then expect that
>>
>> s.title()[1] == s[1].upper()
>>
> I presume you mean [0],

Yes.

> but no, that's not the case. A single character can titlecase to two
> characters, or to a single character that isn't the same as if you
> uppercase or lowercase it. See examples in previous post.

The document for str.title() states that the initial character of each
word is converted to uppercase.  My point is that for characters that
remain single characters regardless of case that means (to me) that

  s.title()[0] == s[0].upper()

or for a single character string

  s.title() == s.upper()

That's not true for digraphs where there is a third, distinct and
different "title" case. I think the doc should state that the initial
character is converted to titlecase. A parenthentical statement that
titlecase is usually but not always equal to uppercase would be nice,
but the current statement is obsolete and not correct in all, um...
cases.

--
Grant



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 11:34:57 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 02:34:57 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s3aa55$8t7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <s3aa55$8t7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqNdPLSnKxLd5UCNqx66YiamfUzSBRiLKemMJY37WJ-eQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:28 AM Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards at gmail.com> wrote:
> The document for str.title() states that the initial character of each
> word is converted to uppercase.  My point is that for characters that
> remain single characters regardless of case that means (to me) that
>
>   s.title()[0] == s[0].upper()
>
> or for a single character string
>
>   s.title() == s.upper()
>
> That's not true for digraphs where there is a third, distinct and
> different "title" case. I think the doc should state that the initial
> character is converted to titlecase. A parenthentical statement that
> titlecase is usually but not always equal to uppercase would be nice,
> but the current statement is obsolete and not correct in all, um...
> cases.

Fair enough, but the trouble is that getting too pedantic in a
docstring just makes it read like IBM documentation. :)

ChrisA

From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Mon Mar 22 11:50:13 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:50:13 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmoYu10EoO99-t-ROvvKu1A9Mutmjj+U5pR1xT+Ks-9o_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADrxXX=xRNqvC8FmC2Q4-Qw-Y79narWR80c9fnzJN4=4NUKaMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F7CD6D8-5CF1-4FAC-BBBD-2B1DCD7CABD8@schollnick.net>

>> I guess it depends on what you mean by "character". In my mind, the
>> first character of string s is s[1], and I would then expect that
>> 
>> s.title()[1] == s[1].upper()
>> 
> 
> I presume you mean [0], but no, that's not the case. A single
> character can titlecase to two characters, or to a single character
> that isn't the same as if you uppercase or lowercase it. See examples
> in previous post.

Or Kanji, etc.  Where a single character can represent more than one in a different unicode standard, as I understand. 

	- Benjamin


From bschollnick at schollnick.net  Mon Mar 22 11:54:29 2021
From: bschollnick at schollnick.net (Benjamin Schollnick)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:54:29 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqNdPLSnKxLd5UCNqx66YiamfUzSBRiLKemMJY37WJ-eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <6efefff1-6a94-332c-2309-6c239f0a847a@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s32rog$2ms$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <0aec8c32-6d1c-9a8b-befb-e0054343883d@wichmann.us>
 <mailman.149.1616182434.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoi6jGi8br484VNDFhs6ZRnn9tLD1CiDsLNOC7E=HbBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.168.1616328124.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp62cFhikcU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <s3aa55$8t7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmqNdPLSnKxLd5UCNqx66YiamfUzSBRiLKemMJY37WJ-eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD121557-54ED-4CD6-8B83-1DF0D620085B@schollnick.net>

>> That's not true for digraphs where there is a third, distinct and
>> different "title" case. I think the doc should state that the initial
>> character is converted to titlecase. A parenthentical statement that
>> titlecase is usually but not always equal to uppercase would be nice,
>> but the current statement is obsolete and not correct in all, um...
>> cases.
> 
> Fair enough, but the trouble is that getting too pedantic in a
> docstring just makes it read like IBM documentation. :)

And actually conversely makes it harder to keep updating, because you?ll need to document every and all edge-cases, and then need to know when one of those edge cases breaks, etc.  

The core concept is documented, and it?s pretty straight-forward.  

I?m sorry, but it?s as if he?s arguing for the sake of arguing.  It?s starting to feel very unproductive, and unnecessary.

	- Benjamin



From klsshaeffer at icloud.com  Mon Mar 22 14:14:34 2021
From: klsshaeffer at icloud.com (Karen Shaeffer)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 11:14:34 -0700
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmrxBg-gA+hyWC98Fg_akvzq4Wz7jrqupCSvDmXQURbCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <4786C20E-A133-4F83-AEA4-F8D9DD607A20@icloud.com>
 <CAPTjJmrxBg-gA+hyWC98Fg_akvzq4Wz7jrqupCSvDmXQURbCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48B970AC-C748-4F4C-B6F9-D23F3F00FFB6@icloud.com>

Hi Chris,
Thanks for your comment.

> Python doesn't work with UTF-8 encoded code points; it works with
> Unicode code points. Are you looking for something that checks whether
> something is a palindrome, or locates palindromes within it?
> 
> def is_palindrome(txt):
>    return txt == txt[::-1]
> 
> Easy.

Of course, its easy. Its a pythonic idiom! But it doesn?t work. And you know that. You even explained a few reasons why it doesn?t work below. There are many more instances of strings that do not work. Here are two:

idx = 6    A man, a plan, a canal: Panama   is_palindrome() = False
idx = 17    ab?cdeedcb?a   is_palindrome() = False

The palindrome isn?t worth any more time. It isn?t even a good example.

In my experience processing unstructured, multilingual text, you encounter a wide array of variances in both the text and in the encoding details, including outright errors. You have to account for all of them, because 99.99% of that text is valuable to you.

The key idea: If you care about the details, working with unstructured multi-lingual text is complicated. There are no easy solutions.


> 
> Efficiently finding substring palindromes would be a bit harder, but
> that'd be true even if you restricted it to ASCII. The advantage of
> Python's way of doing it is that, if you have a method that would work
> with ASCII bytes, the exact same thing will work with a Unicode
> string.
> 
> There's another big wrinkle not touched here, and that's what to do
> with combining characters. Python makes it easy to normalize text as
> much as is possible, and an NFC normalization would help a lot, but
> it's not going to do everything. So you may want to first define a
> proper way to split a string into whatever you're defining a character
> to be, and that's a very difficult problem, regardless of programming
> language. For example, Arabic text changes in visual shape when
> letters are next to each other, and Greek has two different forms for
> the letter sigma (U+03C2 and U+03C3) - should those distinctions
> affect palindromminess? What about ligatures - is U+FB01 "?" a single
> character, or should it be matched by "if" on the other end?
> 
> What part of this is trivial in Go?

Go is simpler than Python. Both languages have the capabilities to solve any text processing problem. I?m still learning Go, so I can?t really say more.

Personally, I like Python for text processing. You can usually get satisfactory results very quickly for most of the input space. And if you don?t care about all the gotchas, then you are good to go.

I have no more time for this. Thanks for your comment. I learned a little reading the long thread dealing with .title(). (chuckles ;)

Humbly,
Karen



From rosuav at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 14:58:24 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 05:58:24 +1100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <48B970AC-C748-4F4C-B6F9-D23F3F00FFB6@icloud.com>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <010d01784af70078-5b7c807c-508c-430f-bca2-77d5d2064635-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>
 <CADrxXXm=dpdZ7o6-5OdmbPpc=EoWXOB+8vbo2s-xWrcr=it+rA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5UzZSYk7Rd43CfSKfV=-5PN9ABqmV=k8BLWn7V4COOnAnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <s32ka3$pd5$1@ciao.gmane.io> <4786C20E-A133-4F83-AEA4-F8D9DD607A20@icloud.com>
 <CAPTjJmrxBg-gA+hyWC98Fg_akvzq4Wz7jrqupCSvDmXQURbCsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <48B970AC-C748-4F4C-B6F9-D23F3F00FFB6@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmq10Av5PGUtnGFPG097ZD40-k49wZ56Qi4u=OoRh4sYMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 5:16 AM Karen Shaeffer via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
> Thanks for your comment.
>
> > Python doesn't work with UTF-8 encoded code points; it works with
> > Unicode code points. Are you looking for something that checks whether
> > something is a palindrome, or locates palindromes within it?
> >
> > def is_palindrome(txt):
> >    return txt == txt[::-1]
> >
> > Easy.
>
> Of course, its easy. Its a pythonic idiom! But it doesn?t work. And you know that. You even explained a few reasons why it doesn?t work below. There are many more instances of strings that do not work. Here are two:
>
> idx = 6    A man, a plan, a canal: Panama   is_palindrome() = False
> idx = 17    ab?cdeedcb?a   is_palindrome() = False
>
> The palindrome isn?t worth any more time. It isn?t even a good example.
>
> In my experience processing unstructured, multilingual text, you encounter a wide array of variances in both the text and in the encoding details, including outright errors. You have to account for all of them, because 99.99% of that text is valuable to you.
>
> The key idea: If you care about the details, working with unstructured multi-lingual text is complicated. There are no easy solutions.
>
>
> >
> > Efficiently finding substring palindromes would be a bit harder, but
> > that'd be true even if you restricted it to ASCII. The advantage of
> > Python's way of doing it is that, if you have a method that would work
> > with ASCII bytes, the exact same thing will work with a Unicode
> > string.
> >
> > There's another big wrinkle not touched here, and that's what to do
> > with combining characters. Python makes it easy to normalize text as
> > much as is possible, and an NFC normalization would help a lot, but
> > it's not going to do everything. So you may want to first define a
> > proper way to split a string into whatever you're defining a character
> > to be, and that's a very difficult problem, regardless of programming
> > language. For example, Arabic text changes in visual shape when
> > letters are next to each other, and Greek has two different forms for
> > the letter sigma (U+03C2 and U+03C3) - should those distinctions
> > affect palindromminess? What about ligatures - is U+FB01 "?" a single
> > character, or should it be matched by "if" on the other end?
> >
> > What part of this is trivial in Go?
>
> Go is simpler than Python. Both languages have the capabilities to solve any text processing problem. I?m still learning Go, so I can?t really say more.
>
> Personally, I like Python for text processing. You can usually get satisfactory results very quickly for most of the input space. And if you don?t care about all the gotchas, then you are good to go.
>
> I have no more time for this. Thanks for your comment. I learned a little reading the long thread dealing with .title(). (chuckles ;)
>

Hey, you're the one who brought up palindrome testing as a difficult
problem in Python :) Your post implied that it was easier in Go, and I
can't see that that's possible.

ChrisA

From boblatest at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 22 14:59:17 2021
From: boblatest at yahoo.com (Robert Latest)
Date: 22 Mar 2021 18:59:17 GMT
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <ibmphbF3craU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
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 <CAPTjJmoyOrz7E4k6+zpZxpcNX5457eTVq4GGWia2WLtHJxKzzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <s37q2o$lt2$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7p_ADKNRLrwUTBQOUPT93+zhR2N35aMCXmdF13jquXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <26089718-faa7-9daf-d2cc-e62bf6c348c2@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <s3a4qm$107j$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmq7OVrYj+oZf3MiWN+AxPfizj=z=NFdzZ9hR2SSfzU=wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <s3aa55$8t7$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmqNdPLSnKxLd5UCNqx66YiamfUzSBRiLKemMJY37WJ-eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <DD121557-54ED-4CD6-8B83-1DF0D620085B@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.205.1616428473.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <ibs7o5F5gc4U2@mid.individual.net>

Benjamin Schollnick wrote:

> I?m sorry, but it?s as if he?s arguing for the sake of arguing.  It?s
> starting to feel very unproductive, and unnecessary.

That was never five minutes just now!

robert

From auriocus at gmx.de  Mon Mar 22 16:20:58 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 21:20:58 +0100
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
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 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.199.1616421821.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net>
Message-ID: <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-email.me>

Am 22.03.21 um 16:03 schrieb Robert Latest:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here.
> 
> That's great because I'm actually having trouble with sending log messages over
> the socket conection you helped me with, would you mind having a look?

You misunderstood the "here".

(native German as well, but I think it means "for keeping .title() up to 
date)

I agree with Chris that .title() can be useful for "title-casing" a 
single character, whatever that means. It should be documented, though, 
that it is not suitable to title-case a string, not even in English.

	Christian

From avigross at verizon.net  Mon Mar 22 17:00:27 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:00:27 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPTjJmqHTDPGrBXLzaT9gF2nqYB_qC_qLqkqCRMnS8Ta5eaqZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.199.1616421821.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net> <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-e mail.me>
Message-ID: <06f901d71f5e$62f0e3e0$28d2aba0$@verizon.net>

Speaking for myself, I am beyond tired of this topic, however informative
parts have been.

I will say it is irrational to try to impose rationally across all possible
languages, let alone people like me who often combine 3 or more language in
a single sentence when talking to others like myself with a dynamic to
nonsensical grammar. Try capitalizing someone's name when they insist on
being known by a purely numerical name like 7777..., or just 7 of 9 or even
!@zq. 

So, yes, a purist might want a truly comprehensive piece of code larger than
say all the code in Microsoft WORD, that first figures out what language
might be used and uses locale and guesswork to even try to narrow down that
the words are meant to be treated as they are in Bavaria and see if the use
is informal or say adhering to the rules for submitting in APA format or
whatever. We are talking about an extremely hard problem that will still
likely make mistakes if I am from Bavaria but submitting a science fiction
article mimicking what I imagine might be the way it will be written in
3010.

So I suggest we take the source for the title function and rename it
something enlightening like changeCaseRandomMethod42dInitialUpperElseLower()
so it can be used mysteriously by anyone that wants. Then deprecate the use
of title() while keeping that as some form of alias for the fantastic new
name. Anyone wishing to have title mean anything else, feel free to redefine
it.

But that jokingly does not mean there is no room for improvement. As an
example, people often would like words like "FBI" to be left alone and not
changed to "Fbi" or in some other contexts, not be flagged as a spelling
error let alone corrected. I suspect the same or relate functions might
accept an optional arguments like maintainAllCAPS=TRUE so FBI is left alone,
albeit LOTUS123 might become Lotus123 or not.

I have seen setups where a programmer makes every imaginable function they
can think of but at some later point, some profiling of actual usage shows
that 80% of them are NEVER used. Often, that is because nobody reads all the
documentation to find out if it even exists or there is a simple workaround.
If the only thing bothering you is that a small list of words like FBI comes
out wrong, it is simple enough to write a function that post-processes the
result of title() and changes those words back.

If you designed a brand new language core today, you may indeed want to
leave title() out of the core but include it as an optional module, perhaps
with a more descriptive name.

Tell me if the base should have functions called camelCase(), PascalCase(),
arrayHungarianCase() or underscore_case() ????


-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Christian Gollwitzer
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 4:21 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: .title() - annoying mistake

Am 22.03.21 um 16:03 schrieb Robert Latest:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here.
> 
> That's great because I'm actually having trouble with sending log 
> messages over the socket conection you helped me with, would you mind
having a look?

You misunderstood the "here".

(native German as well, but I think it means "for keeping .title() up to
date)

I agree with Chris that .title() can be useful for "title-casing" a single
character, whatever that means. It should be documented, though, that it is
not suitable to title-case a string, not even in English.

	Christian
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 18:08:26 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:08:26 -0500
Subject: [Python-ideas] Looking for people interested in a Python register
 virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <CAANSMWo5Q7ZCWC76xdCaz=qq9qrOpsZNcjKusXcrHTCU6QohLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAANSMWo5Q7ZCWC76xdCaz=qq9qrOpsZNcjKusXcrHTCU6QohLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5Uws6VgvYd2yjz40AzLoKMnCdk19DWxYXsb=XLutw0ZxWg@mail.gmail.com>

> In the "Object Lifetime" section you say "registers should be cleared upon last reference". That isn't safe, since there can be hidden dependencies on side effects of __del__, e.g.:
>
>     process_objects = create_pipeline()
>     output_process = process_objects[-1]
>     return output_process.wait()
>
> If the process class terminates the process in __del__ (PyQt5's QProcess does), then implicitly deleting process_objects after the second line will break the code.

Yeah, that is old writing, so is probably less clear (no pun intended)
than it should be. In frame_dealloc, Py_CLEAR is called for
stack/register slots instead of just Py_XDECREF. Might not be
necessary.

Skip

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 18:12:01 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:12:01 -0500
Subject: [Python-ideas] Looking for people interested in a Python register
 virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5Uws6VgvYd2yjz40AzLoKMnCdk19DWxYXsb=XLutw0ZxWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAANSMWo5Q7ZCWC76xdCaz=qq9qrOpsZNcjKusXcrHTCU6QohLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANc-5Uws6VgvYd2yjz40AzLoKMnCdk19DWxYXsb=XLutw0ZxWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UxfSnVn6iNT5i=AYTgLt3CeUWL26DpXNb1hKMOfuLgQqw@mail.gmail.com>

> Yeah, that is old writing, so is probably less clear (no pun intended)
> than it should be. In frame_dealloc, Py_CLEAR is called for
> stack/register slots instead of just Py_XDECREF. Might not be
> necessary.

Also, the intent is not to change any semantics here. The
implementation of RETURN_VALUE_REG still Py_INCREFs the to-be-returned
value. It's not like the data can get reclaimed before the caller
receives it.

S

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Mon Mar 22 18:13:19 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 17:13:19 -0500
Subject: [Python-ideas] Looking for people interested in a Python register
 virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <20210321200457.59ee536c@zenbook>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210321200457.59ee536c@zenbook>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UxG9wjusMnOwxvNxA4yzG8Ur1q70WsJPu-cgLFfzNWjpA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the response. I will try to address your comments inline.

> I guess it should be a good idea to answer what's the scope of this
> project - is it research one or "production" one? If it's research one,
> why be concerned with the churn of over-modern CPython versions?
> Wouldn't it be better to just use some scalable, incremental
> implementation which would allow to forward-port it to a newer version,
> if it ever comes to that?

The motivation for revisiting this idea was/is largely personal. As I
indicated, I first messed around with it over 20 years ago and it's
been in the back of my mind ever since. Somehow I never lost the code
despite I'm not sure how many computers came and went and that the
code was never uploaded to any sort of distributed version control
system. I decided to pick things up again as a way to mostly keep my
head in the game after I retired. So, neither "research" nor
"production" seems to be a correct descriptor. Still, if taken to
functional completion ? functional enough for performance testing and
application to more than just toy scripts ? I realized pretty quickly
that I'd need help.

> Otherwise, if it's "production", who's the "customer" and how they
> "compensate" you for doing work (chasing the moving target) which is
> clearly of little interest to you and conflicts with the goal of the
> project?

Nobody is compensating me. I have no desire to try and turn it into
something I do for hire. Maybe I misunderstood your question?

> > This PEP proposes the addition of register-based instructions to the
> > existing Python virtual machine, with the intent that they eventually
> > replace the existing stack-based opcodes.
>
> Sorry, what? The purpose of register-based instructions is to just
> replace stack-based instructions? That's not what's I'd like to hear as
> the intro phrase. You probably want to replace one with the other
> because register-based ones offer some benefit, faster execution
> perhaps? That's what I'd like to hear instead of "deciphering" that
> between the lines.

Replacing stack-based instructions would be a reasonable initial goal,
I think. Victor reported performance improvements in his
implementation (also a translator). As I indicated in the "PEP" (I use
that term rather loosely, as I have no plans at the moment to submit
it for consideration, certainly not in its current, incomplete state),
a better ultimate way to go would be to generate register instructions
directly from the AST. The current translation scheme allows me to
write simple test case functions, generate register instructions, then
compare that when called the two produce the same result.

> > They [2 instruction sets] are almost completely distinct.
>
> That doesn't correspond to the mental image I would have. In my list,
> the 2 sets would be exactly the same, except that stack-based encode
> argument locations implicitly, while register-based - explicitly. Would
> be interesting to read (in the following "pep" sections) what makes them
> "almost completely distinct".

Well, sure. The main difference is the way two pairs of instructions
(say, BINARY_ADD vs BINARY_ADD_REG) get their operands and save their
result. You still have to be able to add two objects, call functions,
etc.

> > Within a single function only one set of opcodes or the other will
> > be used at any one time.
>
> That would be the opposite of "scalable, incremental" development
> approach mentioned above. Why not allow 2 sets to freely co-exist, and
> migrate codegeneration/implement code translation gradually?

The fact that I treat the current frame's stack space as registers
makes it pretty much impossible to execute both stack and register
instructions within the same frame. Victor's implementation did things
differently in this regard. I believe he just allocated extra space
for 256 registers at the end of each frame, so (in theory, I suppose),
you could have instructions from both executed in the same frame.

> > ## Motivation
>
> I'm not sure the content of the section corresponds much to its title.
> It jumps from background survey of the different Python VM optimizations
> to (some) implementation details of register VM - leaving "motivation"
> somewhere "between the lines".
>
> > Despite all that effort, opcodes which do nothing more than move data
> > onto or off of the stack (LOAD_FAST, LOAD_GLOBAL, etc) still account
> > for nearly half of all opcodes executed.
>
> ... And - you intend to change that with a register VM? In which way and
> how? As an example, LOAD_GLOBAL isn't going anywhere - it loads a
> variable by *symbolic* name into a register.

Certainly, if you have data which isn't already on the stack, you are
going to have to move data. As the appendix shows though, a fairly
large chunk of the current virtual machine does nothing more than
manipulate the stack (LOAD_FAST, STORE_FAST, POP_TOP, etc).

> > Running Pyperformance using a development version of Python 3.9
> > showed that the five most frequently executed pure stack opcodes
> > (LOAD_FAST, STORE_FAST, POP_TOP, DUP_TOP and ROT_TWO) accounted for
> > 35% of all executed instructions.
>
> And you intend to change that with a register VM? How?

I modified the frame so that (once again) the current local variable
space adjoins the current stack space (which, again, I treat as
registers). The virtual machine can thus access local variables in
place. In retrospect, I suspect it might not have been necessary.
During the current phase where I've yet to implement any *_DEREF_REG
instructions, it would be a moot point though. Still, I'm not sure the
cell/free slots have the same semantics as locals/stack (an area of my
expertise which is lacking). Isn't there an extra level of indirection
there? In any case, if the cell/free slots are semantically just like
locals, then it would be straightforward for me to restore the order
of the data blocks in frames.

> Quick google search leads to
> https://www.strchr.com/x86_machine_code_statistics (yeah, that's not
> VM, it's RM (real machine), stats over different VMs would be
> definitely welcome):
>
> > The most popular instruction is MOV (35% of all instructions).
>
> So, is the plan to replace 35% of "five most frequently executed pure
> stack opcodes" with 35% of register-register move instructions? If not,
> why it would be different and how would you achieve that?

I have clearly not explained myself very well in the "PEP". I will
rework that section. Still though, local variables and stack space are
adjacent in my implementation, so local variables can be addressed
directly without needing to first copy them onto the stack (or into a
register). Clearly, global variables must still be copied into and out
of registers to manipulate. I may well replicate the code object's
constants in the frame as well so they can also be treated as
(read-only) registers. Since FrameObjects are cached for reuse with
the same code object, the cost to copy them should be bearable.

> > They are low-cost instructions (compared with CALL_FUNCTION for
> > example), but still eat up time and space in the virtual machine
>
> But that's the problem of any VM - it's slow by definition. There can
> be less slow and more slow VMs, but VMs can't be fast. So, what's the
> top-level motivation - is it "making CPython fast" or "making CPython a
> little bit less slow"? By how much?

The top-level motivation is to have fun. Need there be anything more
ambitious? Still, point taken. Had I continued to pursue this back in
the early 2000s, or had Victor succeeded in getting his implementation
into the core, we might be much further along. The current problem is
made all the more difficult by the fact that the virtual machine has
grown so much in the past 20+ years.

> > Consider the layout of the data section of a Frame object:
> > All those LOAD_FAST and STORE_FAST instructions just copy pointers
> > between chunks of RAM which are just a few bytes away from each other
> > in memory.
>
> Ok, but LOAD_DEREF and STORE_DEREF instructions also just copy pointers
> (with extra dereferencing, but that's a detail). It's unclear why you
> try to ignore them ("cell" registers), putting ahead "locals" and
> "stack" registers. The actual register instructions implementation would
> just treat any frame slot as a register with continuous numbering,
> allowing to access all of locals, cells, and stack locs in the same
> way. In that regard, trying to rearrange 3 groups at this stage seems
> like rather unneeded implementation complexity with no clear motivation.

I haven't even looked at LOAD_DEREF or STORE_DEREF yet. I think that
extra dereferencing will be more than a simple detail though. That
makes the semantics of cell/free slots different than locals/registers
slots (more like globals). If true, then my reordering of the frame
data is worthwhile, I think.

Skip

From tim at akwebsoft.com  Mon Mar 22 17:49:22 2021
From: tim at akwebsoft.com (Tim Johnson)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 13:49:22 -0800
Subject: Pips for python2 and python3
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_pEc_OHKSXif-oe-d-cW7UC9SwwwXAku4da0LDbvQa2bw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <eb906e8c-c3eb-276c-8ac7-dcd0bf74bc2d@akwebsoft.com>
 <54b5e073-0fbd-1b5c-3350-c5796e2db48b@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <CAGGBd_pEc_OHKSXif-oe-d-cW7UC9SwwwXAku4da0LDbvQa2bw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40913e88-da55-837a-2a5d-a83854532d66@akwebsoft.com>



On 3/21/21 5:44 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> python3 -m pip install
Got it. Thanks a lot.

-- 
Tim
tj49.com


From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Mon Mar 22 21:22:26 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:22:26 +1300
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <06f901d71f5e$62f0e3e0$28d2aba0$@verizon.net>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.197.1616411865.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.199.1616421821.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net> <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-e mail.me>
 <06f901d71f5e$62f0e3e0$28d2aba0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <9ca5ec83-fa05-b0a2-c79b-7835dfe73180@DancesWithMice.info>

On 23/03/2021 10.00, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
> Speaking for myself, I am beyond tired of this topic, however informative
> parts have been.

+1


> I will say it is irrational to try to impose rationally across all possible
> languages, let alone people like me who often combine 3 or more language in
> a single sentence when talking to others like myself with a dynamic to
> nonsensical grammar. Try capitalizing someone's name when they insist on
> being known by a purely numerical name like 7777..., or just 7 of 9 or even
> !@zq. 

Further reading: "Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names"
(https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/)

...
> I have seen setups where a programmer makes every imaginable function they
> can think of but at some later point, some profiling of actual usage shows
> that 80% of them are NEVER used. Often, that is because nobody reads all the
> documentation to find out if it even exists or there is a simple workaround.
> If the only thing bothering you is that a small list of words like FBI comes
> out wrong, it is simple enough to write a function that post-processes the
> result of title() and changes those words back.

Pareto principle ~ 80:20 rule, or should that be written "80/20 rule" or
maybe "80/20 Rule"...


Python gives you the choice to use (or not use) many facilities. You may
also choose to rename such facilities, or to re-use Python's own names
to customise functionality. You have complete freedom to use Python in
any way(s) you see fit. Thus:-

Freedom
noun
UK  /?fri?.d?m/ US  /?fri?.d?m/
 the condition or right of being able or allowed to do, say, think, etc.
whatever you want to, without being controlled or limited:
Cambridge Dictionary

-- 
Regards,
=dn

From Richard at Damon-Family.org  Mon Mar 22 22:31:27 2021
From: Richard at Damon-Family.org (Richard Damon)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 22:31:27 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-email.me>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.164.1616269759.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <iboos6Fet1tU1@mid.individual.net>
 <E1862124-1CA0-4D50-83C5-B29396DA2C15@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.167.1616326732.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibp5loFhikcU1@mid.individual.net>
 <11E0D997-BD2D-4AF8-88F7-41A7C7F2293D@schollnick.net>
 <mailman.173.1616351948.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr5vbFt3k6U1@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpm9EAqpOEQ+mZwOw=jtMv-T6PWSny840KT9=RC4pG72g@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.195.1616406569.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibr96jFt3k6U4@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmpFx_xxc0g235u5MnqXB8967mhzvde-pu_no9jgtAjn=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.197.1616411865.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrm44Fg4aU2@mid.individual.net>
 <CAPTjJmqsTbofcPzsYboPgJqo39DLfNu1yQBHwzKn8CmmnTh+0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.199.1616421821.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <ibrpu3F2ct9U2@mid.individual.net> <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <cd289355-3fa8-076a-3429-174864baa0cf@Damon-Family.org>

On 3/22/21 4:20 PM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> Am 22.03.21 um 16:03 schrieb Robert Latest:
>> Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here.
>>
>> That's great because I'm actually having trouble with sending log
>> messages over
>> the socket conection you helped me with, would you mind having a look?
>
> You misunderstood the "here".
>
> (native German as well, but I think it means "for keeping .title() up
> to date)
>
> I agree with Chris that .title() can be useful for "title-casing" a
> single character, whatever that means. It should be documented,
> though, that it is not suitable to title-case a string, not even in
> English.
>
> ????Christian

Part of the difficulty in getting clear documentation for this is that
is it IS somewhat complicated. You title-case a string by Title-casing
the first character of each word (and the primary issue error that
started this was the definition of a 'word'), and lower casing the rest
of the word. The complication comes in that title-casing a character
99.99% of the time doesn't give you a character in title-case, but more
often in upper-case (or uncased). There are apparently only 31 actual
characters that are 'Title-Case'. Thus the action of 'title-casing' a
character is a bit strange to describe, especially to people used to
simple languages which don't have any of the characters that cause the
issue.

We don't seem to have a problme that upper doesn't always return a true
'upper-case', like for '1' because we realize that many character don't
have case, so it gets largly just assumed we know that. For title case,
the fact that almost all characters do NOT have a 'title-case' form
makes things a bit more awkward.

Yes, perhaps the documentation could be made a bit more clear. I do note
that the documentation for str.capitalize() does talk about using actual
title case characters if the first character is a digraph. Something
like that might make sense in the description of str.title()

Note, that str.istitle() doesn't actually check if the character is a
real 'title case' character, but that the string follows a rule similar
to what str.title() produces. I am not positive that its description
exactly matches what .title() produces, but it close, and the way it is
written, "Python's".istitle() is False, as the s at the end needs to be
uppper case to satisfy as ' is uncased, so the next cased character must
be upper case.

-- 
Richard Damon


From gheskett at shentel.net  Mon Mar 22 23:02:54 2021
From: gheskett at shentel.net (Gene Heskett)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 23:02:54 -0400
Subject: .title() - annoying mistake
In-Reply-To: <cd289355-3fa8-076a-3429-174864baa0cf@Damon-Family.org>
References: <CADrxXXnMxG9+mUa6yL-bS7Yf5-jw615UyAWjFpiGX-mDXVp=+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <s3au7a$mfe$1@dont-email.me>
 <cd289355-3fa8-076a-3429-174864baa0cf@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID: <202103222302.54518.gheskett@shentel.net>

On Monday 22 March 2021 22:31:27 Richard Damon wrote:

> On 3/22/21 4:20 PM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> > Am 22.03.21 um 16:03 schrieb Robert Latest:
> >> Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> Cool thing is, nobody in Python needs to maintain anything here.
> >>
> >> That's great because I'm actually having trouble with sending log
> >> messages over
> >> the socket conection you helped me with, would you mind having a
> >> look?
> >
> > You misunderstood the "here".
> >
> > (native German as well, but I think it means "for keeping .title()
> > up to date)
> >
> > I agree with Chris that .title() can be useful for "title-casing" a
> > single character, whatever that means. It should be documented,
> > though, that it is not suitable to title-case a string, not even in
> > English.
> >
> > ????Christian
>
> Part of the difficulty in getting clear documentation for this is that
> is it IS somewhat complicated. You title-case a string by Title-casing
> the first character of each word (and the primary issue error that
> started this was the definition of a 'word'), and lower casing the
> rest of the word. The complication comes in that title-casing a
> character 99.99% of the time doesn't give you a character in
> title-case, but more often in upper-case (or uncased). There are
> apparently only 31 actual characters that are 'Title-Case'. Thus the
> action of 'title-casing' a character is a bit strange to describe,
> especially to people used to simple languages which don't have any of
> the characters that cause the issue.
>
> We don't seem to have a problme that upper doesn't always return a
> true 'upper-case', like for '1' because we realize that many character
> don't have case, so it gets largly just assumed we know that. For
> title case, the fact that almost all characters do NOT have a
> 'title-case' form makes things a bit more awkward.
>
> Yes, perhaps the documentation could be made a bit more clear. I do
> note that the documentation for str.capitalize() does talk about using
> actual title case characters if the first character is a digraph.
> Something like that might make sense in the description of str.title()
>
> Note, that str.istitle() doesn't actually check if the character is a
> real 'title case' character, but that the string follows a rule
> similar to what str.title() produces. I am not positive that its
> description exactly matches what .title() produces, but it close, and
> the way it is written, "Python's".istitle() is False, as the s at the
> end needs to be uppper case to satisfy as ' is uncased, so the next
> cased character must be upper case.
>
> --
> Richard Damon

I am as tired of this thread as anybody here. To me, it must be capable 
to subbing a considerably more caligraphic attention getting font and  a 
bit larger in order for it to be worth its space on the drive. We can do 
that in openoffice and its ilk with a bit of bother, but it can be done.  
Learning how to use this just adds more bother because you can do it by 
hand quicker than looking up the man page for this. OTOH, in the average 
title, that should be restricted to the first character only.

However, we've beat this horse to death, so it is not going to rear up 
and win the next Derby. So dig a hole and bury it please.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

From mutazilah at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 05:23:35 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 02:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
Message-ID: <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>

Hello. I have a new operating system called PDOS
which works on both PC and mainframe, which
can be found here:

http://pdos.sourceforge.net/

I know nothing about Python, my focus is on C90,
but I wish to run this mainframe assembler, asma,
which was written in Python, not C:

https://github.com/s390guy/SATK

It needs Python 3.3 as a minimum, so I wish to port
that version, first to the PC version of PDOS, then to
the mainframe version.

I don't wish to run configure, I want to hand-construct
the makefile. PDOS is a very simple system, so I only
want to produce a single executable, no DLLs etc. I
don't need extensions to work or anything, all I need
to be able to do is run asma.

I've started constructing a makefile (see below), which
I execute with pdmake, included in PDOS. I only have
a C90 runtime library, no more, no less, so I don't know
whether Python will actually build in my environment,
but so far things have been building successfully.

However I'm currently stuck on this unresolved
external:

python.a(abstract.o)(.text+0x668c):abstract.c: undefined reference to `PyExc_StopIteration'

What source file is meant to define that variable
(PyExc_StopIteration) as opposed to just declaring
it or using it? I tried looking at the OS/2 EMX for
hints, but wasn't able to figure it out.

Note that I am building a Win32 executable to start
with, but it is linking against my own C90 library
which will call either Microsoft's MSVCRT.DLL on
Windows, or my own MSVCRT.DLL when running
on PDOS/386 (aka PD-Windows).

I also don't know whether Python will survive being
transferred to an EBCDIC environment, as that is
where it will ultimately need to be compiled and
linked (MVS/380), or at least assembled, before it
can wind up on PDOS/3X0. Well, maybe it can all
be done on Windows. I need to see what asma
is capable of.

Thanks. Paul.



# Produce Windows executables
# links with PDPCLIB created by makefile.msv

CC=gccwin
CFLAGS=-O0
LD=ldwin
LDFLAGS=
AS=aswin
AR=arwin
STRIP=stripwin
COPTS=-S $(CFLAGS) -fno-common -ansi -I. -I../Include -I../../pdos/pdpclib -D__WIN32__

all: clean python.exe

python.exe: python.o ../Python/strdup.o ../Objects/object.o ../Objects/abstract.o \
    ../Python/errors.o ../Objects/bytesobject.o
  rm -f python.a
  ar r python.a ../Python/strdup.o ../Objects/object.o ../Objects/abstract.o
  ar r python.a ../Python/errors.o ../Objects/bytesobject.o
  $(LD) $(LDFLAGS) -o python.exe ../../pdos/pdpclib/w32start.o python.o python.a ../../pdos/pdpclib/msvcrt.a ../../pdos/src/kernel32.a
  $(STRIP) python.exe

.c.o:
  $(CC) $(COPTS) -o $*.s $<
  $(AS) -o $@ $*.s
  rm -f $*.s

clean:
  rm -f *.o python.exe

From gisle.vanem at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 06:43:43 2021
From: gisle.vanem at gmail.com (Gisle Vanem)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 11:43:43 +0100
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
References: <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>

Edwards wrote:

> I don't wish to run configure, I want to hand-construct
> the makefile. PDOS is a very simple system, so I only
> want to produce a single executable, no DLLs etc. I
> don't need extensions to work or anything, all I need
> to be able to do is run asma.

Why not try to port MicroPython instead? Much lighter.
I've ported it to MSDOS/djgpp with some success.

> However I'm currently stuck on this unresolved
> external:
> 
> python.a(abstract.o)(.text+0x668c):abstract.c: undefined reference to `PyExc_StopIteration'

It's in 'Objects/exceptions.c'. When in doubt, look at the
'python*.map' files. I assume you have managed to build
Python 3 on Windows (?).

And BTW, it's also forwarded from 'python3.dll' via some
hacks in 'python3dll.c' to the real Python in 'Python310.dll'
(in my case):
   pedump python3.dll | grep PyExc_StopIteration
     0000853A   227  PyExc_StopIteration (forwarder -> python310.dll.PyExc_StopIteration)

   plus a lot more; it's quite ugly.

-- 
--gv

From mutazilah at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 07:19:34 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 04:19:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 9:44:03 PM UTC+11, Gisle Vanem wrote:

> Why not try to port MicroPython instead? Much lighter. 
> I've ported it to MSDOS/djgpp with some success.

Thanks for the tip. I don't actually need it to be
light. I just need it to be C90-compliant.

The assembler I mentioned is designed to take
the output of a customized GCC 3.2.3, which is
a 3 MB executable and requires about 20 MB
to recompile itself. So lots of memory needs to
be thrown at it anyway.

> > python.a(abstract.o)(.text+0x668c):abstract.c: undefined reference to `PyExc_StopIteration'

> It's in 'Objects/exceptions.c'. When in doubt, look at the 

Thanks!

> 'python*.map' files. I assume you have managed to build 
> Python 3 on Windows (?). 

There are no map files in the Python 3.3 distribution,
and no, I haven't built it on Windows. I've never run
python before. I tried typing in "python" to see if it
came with Cygwin, but I got some stupid Windows
store thing come up.

> And BTW, it's also forwarded from 'python3.dll' via some 
> hacks in 'python3dll.c' to the real Python in 'Python310.dll' 
> (in my case): 
> pedump python3.dll | grep PyExc_StopIteration 
> 0000853A 227 PyExc_StopIteration (forwarder -> python310.dll.PyExc_StopIteration) 
> 
> plus a lot more; it's quite ugly. 

Ok, I'm assuming that I can run without DLLs
being involved. There are presumably other
targets with no concept of DLLs.

My latest problem is this:

Objects/exceptions.c:    ADD_ERRNO(ConnectionRefusedError, ECONNREFUSED);

Those errno are non-standard (non-C90) and I assume
other platforms can't cope with that either. But I can't
see how other platforms are circumventing that problem.
(ie I did a grep -R of the whole source code).

I could define a stack of constants in pyconfig.h to allow
the compile to go through, but I don't see anyone else
doing the same thing.

Is there some other way of circumventing the problem?

Thanks. Paul.

From voodoo.bender at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 07:32:17 2021
From: voodoo.bender at gmail.com (alberto)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 04:32:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: convert script awk in python
Message-ID: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>

Hi to everyone I have an awk script that calculate minimum distances between points 

## atom type frag - atom type surface
#!/bin/bash

FILE1=$1.lammpstrj

if [ -f $FILE1 ];
then

awk 'function sq(x) {
    return x * x;
}
function dist(x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2) {
    return sqrt(sq(x1 - x2) + sq(y1 - y2) + sq(z1 - z2));
}
function print_distances() {
    if (na == 0)
        print "No type 8 atoms.";
    else {
        min = 1000;
        for (a = 0; a < na; a++) {
            d = dist(x, y, z, pos[a,"x"], pos[a,"y"], pos[a,"z"]);
#            printf "%7.5f ", d;
            if (d < min) min = d;
        }
        printf "%6i    %7.5f\n", istep, min;
        x = y = z = 0;
        delete pos;
        na = 0;
    }
}
$1 == 113 {
    if (x || y || z)
        print "More than one type $8 atom.";
    else {
        x = $2; y = $3; z = $4;
        istep++;
    }
}
$8 == 10 {
    pos[na,"x"] = $2; pos[na,"y"] = $3; pos[na,"z"] = $4;
    na += 1;
}
/^ITEM: ATOMS/ && na != 0 { print_distances(); }
END                       { print_distances(); }
' $1.lammpstrj > $1_mindist.txt
fi

where $1 is a particular atom and $8 is a other type of atoms

How could I prepare  a python script 

regards

A

From mutazilah at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 08:17:19 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 05:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <f6f7e2cd-1eb4-4ddf-9028-b53264e8f9f3n@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:19:46 PM UTC+11, Paul Edwards wrote:
> My latest problem is this: 
> 
> Objects/exceptions.c: ADD_ERRNO(ConnectionRefusedError, ECONNREFUSED); 

Sorry, I forgot to include the actual error:

../Objects/exceptions.c:2538: `ECONNREFUSED' undeclared (first use in this function)

BFN. Paul.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 10:02:15 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 01:02:15 +1100
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <f6f7e2cd-1eb4-4ddf-9028-b53264e8f9f3n@googlegroups.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
 <f6f7e2cd-1eb4-4ddf-9028-b53264e8f9f3n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqTRed9zfaHG03MG7_e-BF1hWroywHxUmBGA=sr216KEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 11:21 PM Paul Edwards <mutazilah at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:19:46 PM UTC+11, Paul Edwards wrote:
> > My latest problem is this:
> >
> > Objects/exceptions.c: ADD_ERRNO(ConnectionRefusedError, ECONNREFUSED);
>
> Sorry, I forgot to include the actual error:
>
> ../Objects/exceptions.c:2538: `ECONNREFUSED' undeclared (first use in this function)
>

Ah, this sounds like an issue with your lower-level networking
support. Does PDOS have BSD sockets? Does it have WinSock? Something
else? Nothing at all?

ChrisA

From avigross at verizon.net  Tue Mar 23 10:40:01 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:40:01 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
References: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net>

Alberto,

To convert any algorithm to python (or anything else) you have to understand
it. Do you know what AWK is doing? And does the darn thing work already in
awk? Why do you need to convert it? My suspicion is that it has errors and
if so, it is NOT about converting at all.

I will not solve this for you except to outline what it does.

AWK is designed to read in data and organize it into fields based on rules.
It then sees patterns to match against each clump of data (usually a line)
and performs actions.

The beginning of your shown program simply defined helper functions before
the main program begins. You will need to translate them individually. I
would not have written and formatted it the way you show.

function sq(x) {
    return x * x;
}

function dist(x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2) {
    return sqrt(sq(x1 - x2) + sq(y1 - y2) + sq(z1 - z2)); }

function print_distances() {
    if (na == 0)
        print "No type 8 atoms.";
    else {
        min = 1000;
        for (a = 0; a < na; a++) {
            d = dist(x, y, z, pos[a,"x"], pos[a,"y"], pos[a,"z"]);
#            printf "%7.5f ", d;
            if (d < min) min = d;
        }
        printf "%6i    %7.5f\n", istep, min;
        x = y = z = 0;
        delete pos;
        na = 0;
    }
}

OK, so far? You need to make changes in the above as needed or completely
redo the algorithms in python but first you must recognize what the above
are.

Now the main AWK call is hidden and looks like:

awk 'PROGRAM' $1.lammpstrj > $1_mindist.txt

The above says that AWK is called with a filename the shell script makes
using an argument to the script. The shell also sends the standard output
from awk to a second file with a name based on the same argument. So your
python program needs to open the same file but write to standard output OR
you can rewrite it any way you please to get the same result.

The rest of the program is patterns and actions. But AWK is doing all kinds
of things for you invisibly that you now need to do explicitly in python.

You need to open a file and read a line at a time in a loop. The line must
be parsed into fields the same way AWK would have done. There probably is a
simple package that can do that or you do it by hand.

Now the rest of the program is patterns like:

$1 == 113

$8 == 10

And a more complex one I defer. The above has an action it wants to do for
any line that has a first part exactly equal to 113. The second wants an 8th
part equal to 10. In python, once you have figured out what those parts are
(as well as the other parts) you need to test using something like an "if"
statement for that condition and do what action follows. Here is the
condition then action for the first clause:

$1 == 113 {
    if (x || y || z)
        print "More than one type $8 atom.";
    else {
        x = $2; y = $3; z = $4;
        istep++;
    }
}

I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have been
defined at this point. I have not seen a BEGIN {...} pattern/action or
anywhere these have been initialized but they are set in a function that as
far as I know has not been called. Weird. Maybe awk is allowing an
uninitialized variable to be tested for in your code but if so, you need to
be cautious how you do this in python.

Be that as it may, I am explaining what I think I see. PATTERN ACTION.

So the next pattern/action is:

$8 == 10 {
    pos[na,"x"] = $2; pos[na,"y"] = $3; pos[na,"z"] = $4;
    na += 1;
}

And the next one is a bit more complex:

/^ITEM: ATOMS/ && na != 0 { print_distances(); }

It does pattern matching on the original line and asks for the text being
looked for to be at the beginning of the line. So you need to learn how to
ask python to match that pattern. And note the && joins two Boolean parts.

All the above patterns are checked for on every line and you need to know
what AWK does once it matches. Does the code above ask you to move to the
next line when it matches or do every applicable action?

So you have been in a loop and when you reach the end of the file, you need
to get out of the loop. Only then does the final pattern match:

END                       { print_distances(); }

I hope some of that was helpful. To do the full job you need to do way more
than translate how AWK does something like use curly braces for grouping
while python uses indentations. AWK is designed to be a filter in the ways
described above and does many helpful things behind the scenes. You need to
do all that work for yourself in python.

Of course, having said all that, I know this is a common enough problem that
people have solved by making modules that do awk-like activities in python
but I have no experience there. Had you done a search for something like
this, an answer might have presented itself that involves less work for you,
unless this is homework that needs to be done by you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=python+awk+module&sxsrf=ALeKk03gD2jZYJkZ0cGv
zbKlErWzQJ5Spw%3A1616510303610&source=hp&ei=X_1ZYJPDIobI5gKMk4CACA&iflsig=AI
NFCbYAAAAAYFoLb50VZVAododj5tTkC9AtICpv08Aw&oq=python+awk+module&gs_lcp=Cgdnd
3Mtd2l6EAMyBggAEBYQHjoHCCMQ6gIQJzoHCC4Q6gIQJzoECCMQJzoFCAAQsQM6CwguELEDEMcBE
KMCOggIABCxAxCDAToCCAA6BQguELEDUNobWLhGYIFIaAFwAHgAgAFWiAH2CJIBAjE3mAEAoAEBq
gEHZ3dzLXdperABCg&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjT7q2T0sbvAhUGpFkKHYwJAIAQ4dUDC
Ak&uact=5




-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of alberto
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 7:32 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: convert script awk in python

Hi to everyone I have an awk script that calculate minimum distances between
points 

## atom type frag - atom type surface
#!/bin/bash

FILE1=$1.lammpstrj

if [ -f $FILE1 ];
then

awk 'function sq(x) {
    return x * x;
}
function dist(x1, y1, z1, x2, y2, z2) {
    return sqrt(sq(x1 - x2) + sq(y1 - y2) + sq(z1 - z2)); } function
print_distances() {
    if (na == 0)
        print "No type 8 atoms.";
    else {
        min = 1000;
        for (a = 0; a < na; a++) {
            d = dist(x, y, z, pos[a,"x"], pos[a,"y"], pos[a,"z"]);
#            printf "%7.5f ", d;
            if (d < min) min = d;
        }
        printf "%6i    %7.5f\n", istep, min;
        x = y = z = 0;
        delete pos;
        na = 0;
    }
}
$1 == 113 {
    if (x || y || z)
        print "More than one type $8 atom.";
    else {
        x = $2; y = $3; z = $4;
        istep++;
    }
}
$8 == 10 {
    pos[na,"x"] = $2; pos[na,"y"] = $3; pos[na,"z"] = $4;
    na += 1;
}
/^ITEM: ATOMS/ && na != 0 { print_distances(); }
END                       { print_distances(); }
' $1.lammpstrj > $1_mindist.txt
fi

where $1 is a particular atom and $8 is a other type of atoms

How could I prepare  a python script 

regards

A
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From torriem at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 11:17:38 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 09:17:38 -0600
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <598a7be6-0bfa-f822-dbdc-11f0e58b324a@gmail.com>

On 3/23/21 5:19 AM, Paul Edwards wrote:
> Thanks for the tip. I don't actually need it to be
> light. I just need it to be C90-compliant.

I guess the point with MicroPython is that since it can build on all
sorts of microcontrollers, a) it has a simpler build system and b) it is
definitely statically compiled. But I'm not sure whether it would be
applicable here.

> I tried typing in "python" to see if it
> came with Cygwin, but I got some stupid Windows
> store thing come up.

Cygwin does have python available.  You can select the python packages
when installing or install later by running the cygwin's setup.exe.  In
Windows 10 by default if you don't have any python interpreter
installed, Windows 10 will direct to you to the windows store to install
Python when you try to run the python interpreter.  That is why you saw
something about the Windows store.  Just by way of explanation.

> Ok, I'm assuming that I can run without DLLs
> being involved. There are presumably other
> targets with no concept of DLLs.

Possibly but they would be rarely used targets and not documented well.
 There is a basic wiki page from a few years ago on the subject, but
light on details: https://wiki.python.org/moin/BuildStatically. The
mailing list conversation the page links to is over ten years old.

From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 11:35:53 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:35:53 +0000
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <598a7be6-0bfa-f822-dbdc-11f0e58b324a@gmail.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
 <598a7be6-0bfa-f822-dbdc-11f0e58b324a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8YbOQt3sSPNKT=ktNPZTyj6Lx++GFmMDDek4en1zJ6qpw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 3:20 PM Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/23/21 5:19 AM, Paul Edwards wrote:
> > Thanks for the tip. I don't actually need it to be
> > light. I just need it to be C90-compliant.
>
> I guess the point with MicroPython is that since it can build on all
> sorts of microcontrollers, a) it has a simpler build system and b) it is
> definitely statically compiled. But I'm not sure whether it would be
> applicable here.
>
>
For example, micropython can be compiled with a standlone TCP/IP
implementation: LWIP.

lwip contains the relevant constants, along with the code needed to make
them do stuff:

https://github.com/lwip-tcpip/lwip/blob/0056522cc974d2be2005c324f37187b5b3695765/src/include/lwip/errno.h#L160

So if you're compiling for a non-posix compliant environment, this may be
an easier route to go

Steve

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Mar 23 11:37:25 2021
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 16:37:25 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net>
References: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
 <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20210323153725.GA13276@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
> Alberto,
> 
[...]
> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have been
> defined at this point. I have not seen a BEGIN {...} pattern/action or
> anywhere these have been initialized but they are set in a function that as
> far as I know has not been called. Weird. Maybe awk is allowing an
> uninitialized variable to be tested for in your code but if so, you need to
> be cautious how you do this in python.

As far as I can say, the type of uninitialised variable is groked from
the first operation on it. I.e., "count += 1" first initializes count
to 0 and then adds 1.

This might depend on exact awk being used. There were few of them
during last 30+ years. I just assume it does as I wrote above.

Using BEGIN would be in better style, of course.

There is a very nice book, "The AWK Programming Language" by Aho,
Kernighan and Weinberger. First printed in 1988, now free and in pdf
format. Go search. Perhaps it is easier to make the script work rather
than rewriting it in another language. Both ways require deep
understanding of current code, then with rewrite one also has to make
sure new code is drop in replacement for the old.

There is very nice documentation to gawk (Gnu AWK).

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 15:39:55 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:39:55 -0500
Subject: [Python-ideas] Looking for people interested in a Python register
 virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <20210323123822.2fcf573c@zenbook>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210321200457.59ee536c@zenbook>
 <CANc-5UxG9wjusMnOwxvNxA4yzG8Ur1q70WsJPu-cgLFfzNWjpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210323123822.2fcf573c@zenbook>
Message-ID: <CANc-5Ux2Y9dAj2ka-45QeWd02AZy944_-9eAxYha3gKi8po1Ag@mail.gmail.com>

> a) You're working with CPython bleeding edge.
> b) You find that (bleeding edge) adding extra chore.
> c) Nobody told you to work on bleeding (nor boss, nor a maintainer who
> said "I'll merge it once you've done"),
>
> Then: why do you complicate your task by working on bleeding edge?
> Could take not too old CPython version, e.g. 3.8/3.9, instead, and work
> with that.

I started this in the 3.9 alpha timeframe. Staying up-to-date wasn't
too difficult. It never occurred to me that the virtual machine would
undergo so much churn for 3.10, so I just stuck with main/master and
paid the price when the changes started to arrive in earnest. When the
3.10 branch is created I will take that off-ramp this time.

> Btw, from just "pep", it's unclear if, and how much, you reuse Victor's
> work. If not, why? (The answer is useful to contributors - you ask them
> to "reuse" your code - how it's regarding your reuse of code of folks
> who were before you?).

Both Victor's and my earlier work took place in the dim dark past.
There have been so many functional changes to the virtual machine that
directly reusing either old code base wasn't feasible. I do have a
copy of Victor's work though which I have referred to from
time-to-time. I just never tried to merge it with something recent,
like 3.9.

> > > explicitly. Would be interesting to read (in the following "pep"
> > > sections) what makes them "almost completely distinct".
> >
> > Well, sure. The main difference is the way two pairs of instructions
> > (say, BINARY_ADD vs BINARY_ADD_REG) get their operands and save their
> > result. You still have to be able to add two objects, call functions,
> > etc.
>
> I'd note that your reply skips answering question about calling
> convention for register-based VM, and that's again one of the most
> important questions (and one I'd be genuinely interested to hear).

I've not attempted to make any changes to calling conventions. It
occurred to me that the LOAD_METHOD/CALL_METHOD pair could perhaps be
merged into a single opcode, but I haven't really thought about that.
Perhaps there's a good reason the method is looked up before the
arguments are pushed onto the stack (call_function()?). In a
register-based VM there's no need to do things in that order.

> > The fact that I treat the current frame's stack space as registers
> > makes it pretty much impossible to execute both stack and register
> > instructions within the same frame.
>
> I don't see how that would be true (in general, I understand that you
> may have constraints re: that, but that's exactly why I bring that up -
> why do you have constraints like that?). Even existing Python VM allows
> to use both in the same frame, e.g. LOAD_FAST. It takes value of
> register and puts it on a stack.

Sure, but that's because it must. All operands must be on the stack.
My code does have a step where it tries to remove LOAD_FAST_REG and
STORE_FAST_REG opcodes. It's not very good though. Pesky implicit
references cause problems. Still, I am able to remove some of them.
This should get better over time. And, it is possible that at some
point I decide to add back in some stack space for stuff like calling
functions, constructing lists, etc.

> Do you mean details like need to translate stack-based instructions
> into 2 (or more) instructions of: a) actual register-register
> instruction and; b) stack pointer adjustment, so stack-based
> instructions still kept working?

Yes, but I see (I think) what you're getting at. If I continued to
maintain the stack pointer, in theory stack opcodes could exist along
with register opcodes.

> Yes, you would need to do that, until you fully switch to
> register-based ones. But then there's 2 separate tasks:
>
> 1. Make register VM work. (Should be medium complexity.)
> 2. Make it fast. (Likely will be hard.)

I'm not too worried about #2 yet. :-) And as demonstrated by the
current project's incompleteness, either I'm not up to medium
complexity tasks anymore or it's harder than you think. :-)

Some of the second step isn't too hard, I don't think. I already
mentioned eliding generated fast LOAD/STORE instructions, and in my
previous email mentioned copying constants from the code object to the
frame object on creation. I also think opcode prediction and fast
dispatch should be straightforward. I just haven't bothered with that
yet.

> If you want to achieve both right from the start - oh-oh, that may be
> double-hard.
>
> > Victor's implementation did things
> > differently in this regard. I believe he just allocated extra space
> > for 256 registers at the end of each frame, so (in theory, I suppose),
> > you could have instructions from both executed in the same frame.
>
> I hope you have a plan of how to deal with more than 256 registers,
> etc. Register VM adds a lot of accidental implementation complexity ;-).

One of the reasons I just reused the current stack space as my
register space harkens back to a thread with Tim Peters back in the
earliest days of my original work. He indicated that it was possible
to use no more space than the allocated stack space. That worked for
me then. (I spent a few hours one day looking for that thread, but
never found it.)

> > > > ## Motivation
> > >
> > > I'm not sure the content of the section corresponds much to its
> > > title. It jumps from background survey of the different Python VM
> > > optimizations to (some) implementation details of register VM -
> > > leaving "motivation" somewhere "between the lines".
> > >
> > > > Despite all that effort, opcodes which do nothing more than move
> > > > data onto or off of the stack (LOAD_FAST, LOAD_GLOBAL, etc) still
> > > > account for nearly half of all opcodes executed.
> > >
> > > ... And - you intend to change that with a register VM? In which
> > > way and how? As an example, LOAD_GLOBAL isn't going anywhere - it
> > > loads a variable by *symbolic* name into a register.
> >
> > Certainly, if you have data which isn't already on the stack, you are
> > going to have to move data.
>
> Even if you have data in registers, you still may need to move it
> around to accommodate special conventions of some instructions.

Yes. In particular, function calling and construction of lists (and
similar collections) requires arguments to be in order in contiguous
locations.

> > As the appendix shows though, a fairly
> > large chunk of the current virtual machine does nothing more than
> > manipulate the stack (LOAD_FAST, STORE_FAST, POP_TOP, etc).
> >
> > > > Running Pyperformance using a development version of Python 3.9
> > > > showed that the five most frequently executed pure stack opcodes
> > > > (LOAD_FAST, STORE_FAST, POP_TOP, DUP_TOP and ROT_TWO) accounted
> > > > for 35% of all executed instructions.
> > >
> > > And you intend to change that with a register VM? How?
> >
> > I modified the frame so that (once again) the current local variable
> > space adjoins the current stack space (which, again, I treat as
> > registers). The virtual machine can thus access local variables in
> > place.
>
> For simple instructions, yes. What about instructions with multiple
> (arbitrarily number) arguments, like CALL_FUNCTION*/CALL_METHOD*,
> BUILD_*, etc. (That's the same question as asked in the first mail and
> not answered here.)

CALL_FUNCTION and one or two variants as well as BUILD_* are done and
work. I have to be careful when removing unneeded LOAD/STORE
instructions that I pay attention to these implicit references (e.g.,
"%r1 and the next three slots" instead of "%r1, %r2, %r3, %r4").

> > In retrospect, I suspect it might not have been necessary.
> > During the current phase where I've yet to implement any *_DEREF_REG
> > instructions, it would be a moot point though. Still, I'm not sure the
> > cell/free slots have the same semantics as locals/stack (an area of my
> > expertise which is lacking). Isn't there an extra level of indirection
> > there? In any case, if the cell/free slots are semantically just like
> > locals, then it would be straightforward for me to restore the order
> > of the data blocks in frames.
>
> Yes, that's the point - semantically they're just locals, even though
> they are usually accessed with an extra level of indirection.
>
> > > Quick google search leads to
> > > https://www.strchr.com/x86_machine_code_statistics (yeah, that's not
> > > VM, it's RM (real machine), stats over different VMs would be
> > > definitely welcome):
> > >
> > > > The most popular instruction is MOV (35% of all instructions).
> > >
> > > So, is the plan to replace 35% of "five most frequently executed
> > > pure stack opcodes" with 35% of register-register move
> > > instructions? If not, why it would be different and how would you
> > > achieve that?
> >
> > I have clearly not explained myself very well in the "PEP".
>
> Well, it seems to be written with an idea that a reader is already
> familiar with the benefits of register-based VMs. As a fresh reader, I
> tried to point out that fact. I also happen to be familiar with those
> benefits, and the fact that "on average", register-based VMs are faster
> than stack-based. But that only makes me ask why do you think that
> those "on average" benefits would apply to Python VM case, and ask for
> additional details regarding more complex cases with it (which would
> IMHO noticeably cancel any RVM benefits, unless you have a cunning,
> well-grounded plan to deal with them).

Yeah, that's a definite shortcoming. I will try to add some more
introductory material. Also, as I was implementing things and
stumbling on things like implicit register references I was not going
back and adding content to the document.

I'm going to stop here and see if I can improve the document while
some things are fresh in my mind. I will leave the rest for another
day. You've given me plenty to think about.

Thanks,

Skip

> > I will
> > rework that section. Still though, local variables and stack space are
> > adjacent in my implementation, so local variables can be addressed
> > directly without needing to first copy them onto the stack (or into a
> > register).
>
> Only for simple operations. Where idyllic picture for RISC CPUs with
> their uniform register files breaks is function calling (Python analog:
> CALL_FUNCTION). For not purely RISC CPUs, additional put-down are
> instructions with adhoc register constraints (Python analog would be
> BUILD_LIST, etc.)
>
> > Clearly, global variables must still be copied into and out
> > of registers to manipulate. I may well replicate the code object's
> > constants in the frame as well so they can also be treated as
> > (read-only) registers. Since FrameObjects are cached for reuse with
> > the same code object, the cost to copy them should be bearable.
> >
> > > > They are low-cost instructions (compared with CALL_FUNCTION for
> > > > example), but still eat up time and space in the virtual machine
> > >
> > > But that's the problem of any VM - it's slow by definition. There
> > > can be less slow and more slow VMs, but VMs can't be fast. So,
> > > what's the top-level motivation - is it "making CPython fast" or
> > > "making CPython a little bit less slow"? By how much?
> >
> > The top-level motivation is to have fun. Need there be anything more
> > ambitious?
>
> Well, my point is that if you ask for contributors, it's fair to be
> fair with them ;-). If you ask them to join the fun, it's fair, and
> then it makes sense to maximize level of fun and minimize level of
> chore (no bleeding edge chasing, minimize changes overall, use
> incremental development, where you always have something working, not
> "we'll get that working in a year if we pull well every day").
>
> Otherwise, maybe it would be useful to have more objective
> criteria/goal, like "let's try to make Python faster", and then it
> makes sense to explain why you think register VM would be faster in
> general, and in Python case specifically. (The work process can still
> be fun-optimized, chore-minimizing ;-) ).
>
> > Still, point taken. Had I continued to pursue this back in
> > the early 2000s, or had Victor succeeded in getting his implementation
> > into the core, we might be much further along. The current problem is
> > made all the more difficult by the fact that the virtual machine has
> > grown so much in the past 20+ years.
> >
> > > > Consider the layout of the data section of a Frame object:
> > > > All those LOAD_FAST and STORE_FAST instructions just copy pointers
> > > > between chunks of RAM which are just a few bytes away from each
> > > > other in memory.
> > >
> > > Ok, but LOAD_DEREF and STORE_DEREF instructions also just copy
> > > pointers (with extra dereferencing, but that's a detail). It's
> > > unclear why you try to ignore them ("cell" registers), putting
> > > ahead "locals" and "stack" registers. The actual register
> > > instructions implementation would just treat any frame slot as a
> > > register with continuous numbering, allowing to access all of
> > > locals, cells, and stack locs in the same way. In that regard,
> > > trying to rearrange 3 groups at this stage seems like rather
> > > unneeded implementation complexity with no clear motivation.
> >
> > I haven't even looked at LOAD_DEREF or STORE_DEREF yet. I think that
> > extra dereferencing will be more than a simple detail though. That
> > makes the semantics of cell/free slots different than locals/registers
> > slots (more like globals). If true, then my reordering of the frame
> > data is worthwhile, I think.
>
> Until you have benchmarking data that proves that on a *specific CPU*
> one layout is 0.39% faster than the other (will be different and even
> opposite on another arch/CPU), it's all guesswork, I'm afraid. And extra
> changed code to maintain, which spoils the fun ;-).

From mutazilah at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 17:22:11 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <7ce030e3-6bc3-4187-9f1d-2fd33b9541ebn@googlegroups.com>

On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 10:19:46 PM UTC+11, Paul Edwards wrote:

> Objects/exceptions.c: ADD_ERRNO(ConnectionRefusedError, ECONNREFUSED); 
> 
> Those errno are non-standard (non-C90) and I assume 
> other platforms can't cope with that either. But I can't 
> see how other platforms are circumventing that problem. 
> (ie I did a grep -R of the whole source code). 
> 
> I could define a stack of constants in pyconfig.h to allow 
> the compile to go through, but I don't see anyone else 
> doing the same thing. 

I defined a stack of E* in pyconfig.h and here is my
latest problem:

../Objects/longobject.c:940:5: #error "PyLong_FromVoidPtr: sizeof(void*) > sizeof(long), but no long long"

/* Create a new long int object from a C pointer */

PyObject *
PyLong_FromVoidPtr(void *p)
{
#ifndef HAVE_LONG_LONG
#   error "PyLong_FromVoidPtr: sizeof(void*) > sizeof(long), but no long long"
#endif

That to me sounds like having "long long" is compulsory,
but the error it is showing is not correct. My "void *" is
he same as "long", ie 32 bits. Everything I do is 32 bits
unless I'm doing the occasional MSDOS build which is
16 bits.

What's the point of having a variable HAVE_LONG_LONG
if it's compulsory?

"long long" is not C90. I don't have support for that. The
"i370" target of GCC 3.2.3 doesn't have DI instructions
working. Just 32 bits. Everything is 32 bits.

Any suggestions?

Thanks. Paul.

From guido at python.org  Tue Mar 23 18:25:33 2021
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 15:25:33 -0700
Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Looking for people interested in a Python
 register virtual machine project
In-Reply-To: <CANc-5Ux2Y9dAj2ka-45QeWd02AZy944_-9eAxYha3gKi8po1Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANc-5UxVaJQjNTafrhp14e95e6tWHXRb2Dx-5AhqY=phMOKueA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210321200457.59ee536c@zenbook>
 <CANc-5UxG9wjusMnOwxvNxA4yzG8Ur1q70WsJPu-cgLFfzNWjpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20210323123822.2fcf573c@zenbook>
 <CANc-5Ux2Y9dAj2ka-45QeWd02AZy944_-9eAxYha3gKi8po1Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+CGmYRvpMYJjZyzCMLRqnkCcHK58MuRdd-_hxkyMmb3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 12:40 PM Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I've not attempted to make any changes to calling conventions. It
> occurred to me that the LOAD_METHOD/CALL_METHOD pair could perhaps be
> merged into a single opcode, but I haven't really thought about that.
> Perhaps there's a good reason the method is looked up before the
> arguments are pushed onto the stack (call_function()?). In a
> register-based VM there's no need to do things in that order.
>

IIRC the reason is that Python's language reference promises left-to-right
evaluation here. So o.m(f()) needs to evaluate o.m (which may have a side
effect if o overrides __getattr__) before it calls f().

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
*Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)*
<http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-change-the-world/>

From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Mar 23 18:38:22 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:38:22 +1100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <20210323153725.GA13276@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <20210323153725.GA13276@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <YFpt3gI6xS4nFdS8@cskk.homeip.net>

On 23Mar2021 16:37, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
>[...]
>> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have been
>> defined at this point. I have not seen a BEGIN {...} pattern/action or
>> anywhere these have been initialized but they are set in a function that as
>> far as I know has not been called. Weird. Maybe awk is allowing an
>> uninitialized variable to be tested for in your code but if so, you need to
>> be cautious how you do this in python.
>
>As far as I can say, the type of uninitialised variable is groked from
>the first operation on it. I.e., "count += 1" first initializes count
>to 0 and then adds 1.
>
>This might depend on exact awk being used. There were few of them
>during last 30+ years. I just assume it does as I wrote above.

I'm pretty sure this behaviour's been there since very early times. I 
think it was there when I learnt awk, decades ago.

>Using BEGIN would be in better style, of course.

Aye. Always good to be up front about initial values.

>There is a very nice book, "The AWK Programming Language" by Aho,
>Kernighan and Weinberger. First printed in 1988, now free and in pdf
>format. Go search.

Yes, a really nice book. [... walks into the other room to get his copy 
...] October 1988.

Wow. There're 11 pages of good example programmes before any need for 
user variables at all. But at "1.5, Counting" is the sentence:

    Awk variables used as numbers begin life with the value 0, so we 
    don't need to initialise emp.

Which is great for writing ad hoc scripts, particularly on the command 
line. But not a great style for anything complex.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From mutazilah at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 21:36:37 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 18:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.217.1616508149.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
 <CAPTjJmqTRed9zfaHG03MG7_e-BF1hWroywHxUmBGA=sr216KEw@mail.gmail.com>
 <f6f7e2cd-1eb4-4ddf-9028-b53264e8f9f3n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.217.1616508149.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <4a651c1e-0df6-4eaa-bd52-78d28d7fb113n@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 1:02:48 AM UTC+11, Chris Angelico wrote:

> > ../Objects/exceptions.c:2538: `ECONNREFUSED' undeclared (first use in this function) 
> >
> Ah, this sounds like an issue with your lower-level networking 
> support. Does PDOS have BSD sockets? Does it have WinSock? Something 
> else? Nothing at all? 

(sorry for the delay in replying)

Nothing at all. Just what you can find in ISO/IEC 9899:1990.

BFN. Paul.

From christian at python.org  Wed Mar 24 08:07:21 2021
From: christian at python.org (Christian Heimes)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 13:07:21 +0100
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <7ce030e3-6bc3-4187-9f1d-2fd33b9541ebn@googlegroups.com>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
 <7ce030e3-6bc3-4187-9f1d-2fd33b9541ebn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <s3fa1p$n2u$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 23/03/2021 22.22, Paul Edwards wrote:
> "long long" is not C90. I don't have support for that. The
> "i370" target of GCC 3.2.3 doesn't have DI instructions
> working. Just 32 bits. Everything is 32 bits.

Which version of Python are you using as baseline? CPython requires C99
since 3.6,
https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.6.html#build-and-c-api-changes

Christian


From avigross at verizon.net  Wed Mar 24 11:22:02 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:22:02 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <YFpt3gI6xS4nFdS8@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <20210323153725.GA13276@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <YFpt3gI6xS4nFdS8@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <00d301d720c1$71322e50$53968af0$@verizon.net>

Cameron,

I agree with you. I first encountered AWK in 1982 when I went to work for
Bell Labs.

I have not had any reason to use AWK since before the year 2000 so I was not
sure that unused variables were initialized to zero. The code seemed to
assume that. I have learned quite a few languages since and after a while,
they tend to blend into each other. 

I think it would indeed have been more AWKthonic (or should that be called
AWKward?) to have a BEGIN section in which functions were declared and
variables clearly initialized but the language does allow some quick and
dirty ways to do things and clearly the original programmer used some.

Which brings us back to languages like python. When I started using AWK and
a slew of other UNIX programs years ago, what I found interesting is how
much AWK was patterned a bit on the C language, not a surprise as the K in
AWK is Brian Kernighan who had a hand in C. But unlike C that made me wait
around as it compiled, AWK was a bit more of an interpreted language and I
could write one-liner shell scripts (well, stretched over a few lines if
needed) that did things. True, if you stuck an entire program in a BEGIN
statement and did not actually loop over data, it seems a tad wasteful. But
sometimes it was handy to use it to test out a bit of C code I was writing
without waiting for the whole compile thing. In a sense, it was  bit like
using the python REPL and getting raid feedback. Of course, when I was an
early adopter of C++, too many things were not in AWK!

What gets me is the original question which made it sound a bit like asking
how you would translate some fairly simple program from language A to
language B. For some fairly simple programs, the translation effort could be
minimal. There are often trivial mappings between similar constructs. Quite
a bit of python simply takes a block of code in another language that is
between curly braces, and lines it up indented below whatever it modifies
and after a colon. The reverse may be similarly trivial. There are of course
many such changes needed for some languages but when some novel twist is
used that the language does not directly support, you may need to innovate
or do a rewrite that avoids it. But still, except in complicated
expressions, you can rewrite x++ to "x += 1" if that is available or "x = x
+ 1" or "x -> x + 1" or whatever.

What gets me here is that AWK in his program  was being used exactly for
what it was designed. Python is more general-purpose. Had we been asked (not
on this forum) to convert that AWK script to PERL, it would have been much
more straightforward because PERL was also designed to be able to read in
lines and break them into parts and act on them. It has constructs like the
diamond operator or split that make it easy.

Hence, at the end, I suggested Tomasz may want to do his task not using just
basic python but some module others have already shared that emulates some
of the filter aspects of AWK. That may make it easier to just translate the
bits of code to python while largely leaving the logic in place, depending
on the module.

Just to go way off the rails, was our annoying cross-poster from a while
back also promising to include a language like AWK into their universal
translator by just saving some JSON descriptions?

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Cameron Simpson
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 6:38 PM
To: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
Cc: Avi Gross via Python-list <python-list at python.org>
Subject: Re: convert script awk in python

On 23Mar2021 16:37, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
>[...]
>> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have 
>> been defined at this point. I have not seen a BEGIN {...} 
>> pattern/action or anywhere these have been initialized but they are 
>> set in a function that as far as I know has not been called. Weird. 
>> Maybe awk is allowing an uninitialized variable to be tested for in 
>> your code but if so, you need to be cautious how you do this in python.
>
>As far as I can say, the type of uninitialised variable is groked from 
>the first operation on it. I.e., "count += 1" first initializes count 
>to 0 and then adds 1.
>
>This might depend on exact awk being used. There were few of them 
>during last 30+ years. I just assume it does as I wrote above.

I'm pretty sure this behaviour's been there since very early times. I think
it was there when I learnt awk, decades ago.

>Using BEGIN would be in better style, of course.

Aye. Always good to be up front about initial values.

>There is a very nice book, "The AWK Programming Language" by Aho, 
>Kernighan and Weinberger. First printed in 1988, now free and in pdf 
>format. Go search.

Yes, a really nice book. [... walks into the other room to get his copy ...]
October 1988.

Wow. There're 11 pages of good example programmes before any need for user
variables at all. But at "1.5, Counting" is the sentence:

    Awk variables used as numbers begin life with the value 0, so we 
    don't need to initialise emp.

Which is great for writing ad hoc scripts, particularly on the command line.
But not a great style for anything complex.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 24 05:28:25 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 09:28:25 +0000
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net>
References: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
 <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <s3f0np$a49$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 23/03/2021 14:40, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:

> $1 == 113 {
>     if (x || y || z)
>         print "More than one type $8 atom.";
>     else {
>         x = $2; y = $3; z = $4;
>         istep++;
>     }
> }
> 
> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have been
> defined at this point. 

They haven't been, they are using awk's auto-initialization feature.
The variables are defined in this bit of code. The first time we see $1
== 113 we define the variables. On subsequent appearances we print the
warning.

> far as I know has not been called. Weird. Maybe awk is allowing an
> uninitialized variable to be tested for in your code but if so, you need to
> be cautious how you do this in python.

It's standard behaviour in any POSIX compliant awk, variables are
initialised to empty strings/arrays or zero as appropriate to first use.

The original AWK book has already been mentioned, which covers nawk.
I'll add the O'Reilly book "sed & awk" which covers the POSIX version
and includes several extensions not covered in the original book. (It
also covers sed but that's irrelevant here)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From avigross at verizon.net  Wed Mar 24 12:00:03 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:00:03 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <s3f0np$a49$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
 <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net> <s3f0np$a49$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>

Alan,

Back when various UNIX (later also included in other Operating environments
like Linux and the Mac OS and even Microsoft) utilities came along, the
paradigm was a bit different and some kinds of tasks were seen as being done
with a pipeline of often small and focused utilities. You mentioned SED
which at first seems like a very simple tool but if you look again, it can
replace lots of other tools mostly as you can write one-liners with lots of
power. AWK, in some sense, was even more powerful and can emulate so many
others.

But it came with a cost compared to some modern languages where by attaching
a few modules, you can do much of the same in fewer passes over the data.

I am not sure if I mentioned it here, but I was once on a project that
stored all kinds of billing information in primitive text files using a
vertical bar as  record separator. My boss, who was not really a programmer,
started looking at analyzing the data fairly primitively ended up writing
huge shell scripts (ksh, I think) that remotely went to our computers around
the world and gathered the files and processed them through pipelines that
often were 10 or more parts as he selectively broke each line into parts,
removed some and so on. He would use /bin/echo, cut, grep, sed, and so on.
The darn thing ran for hours which was fine when it was running at midnight
in Missouri, but not so much when it ran the same time in countries like
Japan and Israel where the users were awake. I got lots of complaints and
showed him how his entire mess could be replaced mostly by a single AWK
script and complete in minutes.

Of course, now, with a fast internet and modern languages that can run
threads in parallel, it probably would complete in seconds. Maybe I would
have translated that AWK to python after all, but these days I am studying
Kotlin so maybe ...

As I see it, many languages have a trade-off. The fact that AWK decided to
allow a variable to be used without any other form of declaration, was a
feature. It could easily lead to errors if you spelled something wrong. But
look at Python. You can use a variable to hold anything just by using it. If
you spell it wrong later when putting something else in it, no problem. You
now have two variables. If you try to access the value of a non-initialized
variable, you get an error. But many more strongly-typed languages would
catch more potential errors. If you store an int in a variable and later
mistakenly put a string in the same variable name, python is happy. And that
can be a GOOD feature for programmers but will not catch some errors.
Initializing variables to 0 really only makes sense for numeric variables.
When a language allows all kinds of "objects" you might need an
object-specific default initialization and for some objects, that makes no
sense. As you note, the POSIX compliant versions of AWK do also initialize,
if needed, to empty strings.

But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new programs
as compared to a time they were really useful. So many people sort of live
within one application in a GUI rather than work at a textual level in a
shell where many problems can rapidly be done with a few smaller tools,
often in a pipeline.

Avi

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Alan Gauld via Python-list
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 5:28 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: convert script awk in python

On 23/03/2021 14:40, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:

> $1 == 113 {
>     if (x || y || z)
>         print "More than one type $8 atom.";
>     else {
>         x = $2; y = $3; z = $4;
>         istep++;
>     }
> }
> 
> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have 
> been defined at this point.

They haven't been, they are using awk's auto-initialization feature.
The variables are defined in this bit of code. The first time we see $1 ==
113 we define the variables. On subsequent appearances we print the warning.

> far as I know has not been called. Weird. Maybe awk is allowing an 
> uninitialized variable to be tested for in your code but if so, you 
> need to be cautious how you do this in python.

It's standard behaviour in any POSIX compliant awk, variables are
initialised to empty strings/arrays or zero as appropriate to first use.

The original AWK book has already been mentioned, which covers nawk.
I'll add the O'Reilly book "sed & awk" which covers the POSIX version and
includes several extensions not covered in the original book. (It also
covers sed but that's irrelevant here)

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From mutazilah at gmail.com  Wed Mar 24 13:01:36 2021
From: mutazilah at gmail.com (Paul Edwards)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: port to PDOS (especially mainframe)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.225.1616587648.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <5c89d4f3-7ab3-80b4-c208-285216f16d77@gmail.com>
 <04534e58-4375-403b-980b-f44c062ce282n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.216.1616496227.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8cb3be58-64c7-4251-b573-f08a286bd245n@googlegroups.com>
 <s3fa1p$n2u$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <7ce030e3-6bc3-4187-9f1d-2fd33b9541ebn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.225.1616587648.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <619bf63f-d499-4e43-8eba-dde8e825d2bdn@googlegroups.com>

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 11:07:48 PM UTC+11, Christian Heimes wrote:

> > "long long" is not C90. I don't have support for that. The 
> > "i370" target of GCC 3.2.3 doesn't have DI instructions 
> > working. Just 32 bits. Everything is 32 bits.

> Which version of Python are you using as baseline?

3.3, which is the minimum required, according to this:

https://github.com/s390guy/SATK

 asma            - A Small Mainframe Assembler (ASMA) for stand-alone
                      programs.  ASMA runs wherever Python 3.3 runs!


> CPython requires C99 since 3.6, 

Exactly why I go back to the oldest version I can!

BFN. Paul.

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 24 13:49:04 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 17:49:04 +0000
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
References: <7248f523-75de-4aa0-8648-938fa034ae6cn@googlegroups.com>
 <00e401d71ff2$68ae7790$3a0b66b0$@verizon.net> <s3f0np$a49$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <s3fu2g$e7r$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 24/03/2021 16:00, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:

> But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new programs
> as compared to a time they were really useful.

True. I first discovered awk from a Byte article around 1988/9
and it became my goto tool for text munching right up until
I found Python in 1998.

I still use it as part of a unix command pipeline but I rarely
write awk scripts in a file anymore - if it's that complex I
reach for Python.

But at one time I had a dozen or more awk scripts in my ~/bin folder.

I also used awk on a real-world project to process csv files from an
Excel spreadsheet and create site-specific config files for some shiny
new WindowsNT(v3.1) boxes we were using. They had twin network
connections and hard coded IP settings(for resilience) and the network
designers delivered the site settings by Excel. We turned them into .BAT
files using awk.

Eventually, we figured out how to write Excel macros and converted
it all to VBA. Happy days. :-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From cs at cskk.id.au  Wed Mar 24 18:34:14 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 09:34:14 +1100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>

On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new 
>programs
>as compared to a time they were really useful.

You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.  
By contrast, I still use it regularly.

It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, 
and as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script 
which does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a 
column, and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a 
tally.

I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or 
where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command 
invocations, if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From avigross at verizon.net  Wed Mar 24 19:30:45 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 19:30:45 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>

Just to be clear, Cameron, I retired very early and thus have had no reason
to use AWK in a work situation and for a while was not using UNIX-based
machines. I have no doubt I would have continued using WK as one part of my
toolkit for years albeit less often as I found other tools better for some
situations, let alone the kind I mentioned earlier that are not text-file
based such as databases.

It is, as noted, a great tool and if you only had one or a few tools like it
available, it can easily be bent and twisted to do much of what the others
do as it is more programmable than most. But following that line of
reasoning, fairly simple python scripts can be written with python -c "..."
or by pointing to a script

Anyone have a collection of shell scripts that can be used in pipelines
where each piece is just a call to python to do something simple?

-----Original Message-----
From: Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> 
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 6:34 PM
To: Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net>
Cc: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: convert script awk in python

On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new 
>programs as compared to a time they were really useful.

You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.  
By contrast, I still use it regularly.

It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, and
as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script which
does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a column,
and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a tally.

I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or
where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command invocations,
if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>


From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Thu Mar 25 03:14:33 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 08:14:33 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

"Avi Gross" <avigross at verizon.net> writes:

> Just to be clear, Cameron, I retired very early and thus have had no reason
> to use AWK in a work situation and for a while was not using UNIX-based
> machines. I have no doubt I would have continued using WK as one part of my
> toolkit for years albeit less often as I found other tools better for some
> situations, let alone the kind I mentioned earlier that are not text-file
> based such as databases.
>
> It is, as noted, a great tool and if you only had one or a few tools like it
> available, it can easily be bent and twisted to do much of what the others
> do as it is more programmable than most. But following that line of
> reasoning, fairly simple python scripts can be written with python -c "..."
> or by pointing to a script
>
> Anyone have a collection of shell scripts that can be used in pipelines
> where each piece is just a call to python to do something simple?

I'm not doing that, but I am trying to replace a longish bash pipeline
with Python code.

Within Emacs, often I use Org mode[1] to generate date via some bash
commands and then visualise the data via Python.  Thus, in a single Org
file I run

  /usr/bin/sacct  -u $user -o jobid -X -S $start -E $end -s COMPLETED -n  | \                                                                                                                                   
  xargs -I {} seff {} | grep 'Efficiency' | sed '$!N;s/\n/ /' | awk '{print $3 " " $9}' | sed 's/%//g'                                                                                                          
   
The raw numbers are formatted by Org into a table

  | cpu_eff | mem_eff |
  |---------+---------|
  |    96.6 |   99.11 |
  |   93.43 |   100.0 |
  |    91.3 |   100.0 |
  |   88.71 |   100.0 |
  |   89.79 |   100.0 |
  |   84.59 |   100.0 |
  |   83.42 |   100.0 |
  |   86.09 |   100.0 |
  |   92.31 |   100.0 |
  |   90.05 |   100.0 |
  |   81.98 |   100.0 |
  |   90.76 |   100.0 |
  |   75.36 |   64.03 |

I then read this into some Python code in the Org file and do something like

  df = pd.DataFrame(eff_tab[1:], columns=eff_tab[0])                    
  cpu_data = df.loc[: , "cpu_eff"]                                                                                                                                                                               
  mem_data = df.loc[: , "mem_eff"]                                                                                                                                                                              

  ...

  n, bins, patches = axis[0].hist(cpu_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))                                                                                                                                               
  n, bins, patches = axis[1].hist(mem_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5)) 

which generates nice histograms.

I decided rewrite the whole thing as a stand-alone Python program so
that I can run it as a cron job.  However, as a novice Python programmer
I am finding translating the bash part slightly clunky.  I am in the
middle of doing this and started with the following:

        sacct = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/sacct",
                                  "-u", user,
                                  "-S", period[0], "-E", period[1],
                                  "-o", "jobid", "-X",
                                  "-s", "COMPLETED", "-n"],
                                 stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
        )

        jobids = []

        for line in sacct.stdout:
            jobid = str(line.strip(), 'UTF-8')
            jobids.append(jobid)

        for jobid in jobids:
            seff = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/seff", jobid],
                                    stdin=sacct.stdout,
                                    stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
            )
            seff_output = []
            for line in seff.stdout:
                seff_output.append(str(line.strip(), "UTF-8"))

            ...        

but compared the to the bash pipeline, this all seems a bit laboured. 

Does any one have a better approach?

Cheers,

Loris


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 6:34 PM
> To: Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net>
> Cc: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
>
> On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>>But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new 
>>programs as compared to a time they were really useful.
>
> You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.  
> By contrast, I still use it regularly.
>
> It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, and
> as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script which
> does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a column,
> and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a tally.
>
> I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or
> where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command invocations,
> if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.
>
> Cheers,
> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

Footnotes: 
[1]  https://orgmode.org/

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From auriocus at gmx.de  Thu Mar 25 03:42:11 2021
From: auriocus at gmx.de (Christian Gollwitzer)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 08:42:11 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s3hesk$epl$1@dont-email.me>

Am 25.03.21 um 00:30 schrieb Avi Gross:
> It [awk] is, as noted, a great tool and if you only had one or a few tools like it
> available, it can easily be bent and twisted to do much of what the others
> do as it is more programmable than most. But following that line of
> reasoning, fairly simple python scripts can be written with python -c "..."
> or by pointing to a script

The thing with awk is that lots of useful text processing is directly 
built into the main syntax; whereas in Python, you can certainly do it 
as well, but it requires to load a library. The simple column summation 
mentioned before by Cameron would be

    awk ' {sum += $2 } END {print sum}'

which can be easily typed into a command line, with the benefit that it 
skips every line where the 2nd col is not a valid number. This is 
important because often there are empty lines, often there is an empty 
line at the end, some ascii headers whatever.

The closest equivalent I can come up with in Python is this:

==============================
import sys

s=0
for line in sys.stdin:
     try:
         s += float(line.split()[1])
     except:
         pass
print(s)
===================================


I don't want to cram this into a python -c " "  line, if it even is 
possible; how do you handle indentation levels and loops??

Of course, for big fancy programs Python is a much better choice than 
awk, no questions asked - but awk has a place for little things which 
fit the special programming model, and there are surprisingly many 
applications where this is just the easiest and fastest way to do the job.

It's like regexes - a few simple characters can do the job which 
otherwise requires a bulky program, but once the parsing gets to certain 
complexity, a true parsing language, or even just handcoded Python is 
much more maintainable.

	Christian

PS: Exercise - handle lines commented out with a '#', i.e. skip those. 
In awk:

gawk '!/^\s*#/ {sum += $2 } END {print sum}'


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Mar 25 04:51:10 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 09:51:10 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <f75b9d54-c878-806e-3b25-053c1489f25f@web.de>

On 25/03/2021 08:14, Loris Bennett wrote:

> I'm not doing that, but I am trying to replace a longish bash pipeline
> with Python code.
>
> Within Emacs, often I use Org mode[1] to generate date via some bash
> commands and then visualise the data via Python.  Thus, in a single Org
> file I run
>
>    /usr/bin/sacct  -u $user -o jobid -X -S $start -E $end -s COMPLETED -n  | \
>    xargs -I {} seff {} | grep 'Efficiency' | sed '$!N;s/\n/ /' | awk '{print $3 " " $9}' | sed 's/%//g'
>
> The raw numbers are formatted by Org into a table
>
>    | cpu_eff | mem_eff |
>    |---------+---------|
>    |    96.6 |   99.11 |
>    |   93.43 |   100.0 |
>    |    91.3 |   100.0 |
>    |   88.71 |   100.0 |
>    |   89.79 |   100.0 |
>    |   84.59 |   100.0 |
>    |   83.42 |   100.0 |
>    |   86.09 |   100.0 |
>    |   92.31 |   100.0 |
>    |   90.05 |   100.0 |
>    |   81.98 |   100.0 |
>    |   90.76 |   100.0 |
>    |   75.36 |   64.03 |
>
> I then read this into some Python code in the Org file and do something like
>
>    df = pd.DataFrame(eff_tab[1:], columns=eff_tab[0])
>    cpu_data = df.loc[: , "cpu_eff"]
>    mem_data = df.loc[: , "mem_eff"]
>
>    ...
>
>    n, bins, patches = axis[0].hist(cpu_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
>    n, bins, patches = axis[1].hist(mem_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
>
> which generates nice histograms.
>
> I decided rewrite the whole thing as a stand-alone Python program so
> that I can run it as a cron job.  However, as a novice Python programmer
> I am finding translating the bash part slightly clunky.  I am in the
> middle of doing this and started with the following:
>
>          sacct = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/sacct",
>                                    "-u", user,
>                                    "-S", period[0], "-E", period[1],
>                                    "-o", "jobid", "-X",
>                                    "-s", "COMPLETED", "-n"],
>                                   stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>          )
>
>          jobids = []
>
>          for line in sacct.stdout:
>              jobid = str(line.strip(), 'UTF-8')
>              jobids.append(jobid)
>
>          for jobid in jobids:
>              seff = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/seff", jobid],
>                                      stdin=sacct.stdout,
>                                      stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>              )

The statement above looks odd. If seff can read the jobids from stdin
there should be no need to pass them individually, like:

sacct = ...
seff = Popen(
   ["/usr/bin/seff"], stdin=sacct.stdout, stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
   universal_newlines=True
)
for line in seff.communicate()[0].splitlines():
     ...


>              seff_output = []
>              for line in seff.stdout:
>                  seff_output.append(str(line.strip(), "UTF-8"))
>
>              ...
>
> but compared the to the bash pipeline, this all seems a bit laboured.
>
> Does any one have a better approach?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Loris
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 6:34 PM
>> To: Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net>
>> Cc: python-list at python.org
>> Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
>>
>> On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new
>>> programs as compared to a time they were really useful.
>>
>> You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.
>> By contrast, I still use it regularly.
>>
>> It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, and
>> as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script which
>> does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a column,
>> and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a tally.
>>
>> I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or
>> where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command invocations,
>> if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>
> Footnotes:
> [1]  https://orgmode.org/
>


From __peter__ at web.de  Thu Mar 25 04:51:10 2021
From: __peter__ at web.de (Peter Otten)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 09:51:10 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <f75b9d54-c878-806e-3b25-053c1489f25f@web.de>

On 25/03/2021 08:14, Loris Bennett wrote:

> I'm not doing that, but I am trying to replace a longish bash pipeline
> with Python code.
> 
> Within Emacs, often I use Org mode[1] to generate date via some bash
> commands and then visualise the data via Python.  Thus, in a single Org
> file I run
> 
>    /usr/bin/sacct  -u $user -o jobid -X -S $start -E $end -s COMPLETED -n  | \
>    xargs -I {} seff {} | grep 'Efficiency' | sed '$!N;s/\n/ /' | awk '{print $3 " " $9}' | sed 's/%//g'
>     
> The raw numbers are formatted by Org into a table
> 
>    | cpu_eff | mem_eff |
>    |---------+---------|
>    |    96.6 |   99.11 |
>    |   93.43 |   100.0 |
>    |    91.3 |   100.0 |
>    |   88.71 |   100.0 |
>    |   89.79 |   100.0 |
>    |   84.59 |   100.0 |
>    |   83.42 |   100.0 |
>    |   86.09 |   100.0 |
>    |   92.31 |   100.0 |
>    |   90.05 |   100.0 |
>    |   81.98 |   100.0 |
>    |   90.76 |   100.0 |
>    |   75.36 |   64.03 |
> 
> I then read this into some Python code in the Org file and do something like
> 
>    df = pd.DataFrame(eff_tab[1:], columns=eff_tab[0])
>    cpu_data = df.loc[: , "cpu_eff"]
>    mem_data = df.loc[: , "mem_eff"]
> 
>    ...
> 
>    n, bins, patches = axis[0].hist(cpu_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
>    n, bins, patches = axis[1].hist(mem_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
> 
> which generates nice histograms.
> 
> I decided rewrite the whole thing as a stand-alone Python program so
> that I can run it as a cron job.  However, as a novice Python programmer
> I am finding translating the bash part slightly clunky.  I am in the
> middle of doing this and started with the following:
> 
>          sacct = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/sacct",
>                                    "-u", user,
>                                    "-S", period[0], "-E", period[1],
>                                    "-o", "jobid", "-X",
>                                    "-s", "COMPLETED", "-n"],
>                                   stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>          )
> 
>          jobids = []
> 
>          for line in sacct.stdout:
>              jobid = str(line.strip(), 'UTF-8')
>              jobids.append(jobid)
> 
>          for jobid in jobids:
>              seff = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/seff", jobid],
>                                      stdin=sacct.stdout,
>                                      stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>              )

The statement above looks odd. If seff can read the jobids from stdin 
there should be no need to pass them individually, like:

sacct = ...
seff = Popen(
   ["/usr/bin/seff"], stdin=sacct.stdout, stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
   universal_newlines=True
)
for line in seff.communicate()[0].splitlines():
     ...


>              seff_output = []
>              for line in seff.stdout:
>                  seff_output.append(str(line.strip(), "UTF-8"))
> 
>              ...
> 
> but compared the to the bash pipeline, this all seems a bit laboured.
> 
> Does any one have a better approach?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Loris
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 6:34 PM
>> To: Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net>
>> Cc: python-list at python.org
>> Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
>>
>> On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new
>>> programs as compared to a time they were really useful.
>>
>> You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.
>> By contrast, I still use it regularly.
>>
>> It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, and
>> as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script which
>> does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a column,
>> and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a tally.
>>
>> I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or
>> where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command invocations,
>> if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
> 
> Footnotes:
> [1]  https://orgmode.org/
> 



From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Thu Mar 25 06:16:37 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 11:16:37 +0100
Subject: convert script awk in python
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <f75b9d54-c878-806e-3b25-053c1489f25f@web.de>
 <mailman.232.1616662273.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <877dlvczcq.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Peter Otten <__peter__ at web.de> writes:

> On 25/03/2021 08:14, Loris Bennett wrote:
>
>> I'm not doing that, but I am trying to replace a longish bash pipeline
>> with Python code.
>>
>> Within Emacs, often I use Org mode[1] to generate date via some bash
>> commands and then visualise the data via Python.  Thus, in a single Org
>> file I run
>>
>>    /usr/bin/sacct  -u $user -o jobid -X -S $start -E $end -s COMPLETED -n  | \
>>    xargs -I {} seff {} | grep 'Efficiency' | sed '$!N;s/\n/ /' | awk '{print $3 " " $9}' | sed 's/%//g'
>>
>> The raw numbers are formatted by Org into a table
>>
>>    | cpu_eff | mem_eff |
>>    |---------+---------|
>>    |    96.6 |   99.11 |
>>    |   93.43 |   100.0 |
>>    |    91.3 |   100.0 |
>>    |   88.71 |   100.0 |
>>    |   89.79 |   100.0 |
>>    |   84.59 |   100.0 |
>>    |   83.42 |   100.0 |
>>    |   86.09 |   100.0 |
>>    |   92.31 |   100.0 |
>>    |   90.05 |   100.0 |
>>    |   81.98 |   100.0 |
>>    |   90.76 |   100.0 |
>>    |   75.36 |   64.03 |
>>
>> I then read this into some Python code in the Org file and do something like
>>
>>    df = pd.DataFrame(eff_tab[1:], columns=eff_tab[0])
>>    cpu_data = df.loc[: , "cpu_eff"]
>>    mem_data = df.loc[: , "mem_eff"]
>>
>>    ...
>>
>>    n, bins, patches = axis[0].hist(cpu_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
>>    n, bins, patches = axis[1].hist(mem_data, bins=range(0, 110, 5))
>>
>> which generates nice histograms.
>>
>> I decided rewrite the whole thing as a stand-alone Python program so
>> that I can run it as a cron job.  However, as a novice Python programmer
>> I am finding translating the bash part slightly clunky.  I am in the
>> middle of doing this and started with the following:
>>
>>          sacct = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/sacct",
>>                                    "-u", user,
>>                                    "-S", period[0], "-E", period[1],
>>                                    "-o", "jobid", "-X",
>>                                    "-s", "COMPLETED", "-n"],
>>                                   stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>>          )
>>
>>          jobids = []
>>
>>          for line in sacct.stdout:
>>              jobid = str(line.strip(), 'UTF-8')
>>              jobids.append(jobid)
>>
>>          for jobid in jobids:
>>              seff = subprocess.Popen(["/usr/bin/seff", jobid],
>>                                      stdin=sacct.stdout,
>>                                      stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>>              )
>
> The statement above looks odd. If seff can read the jobids from stdin
> there should be no need to pass them individually, like:
>
> sacct = ...
> seff = Popen(
>   ["/usr/bin/seff"], stdin=sacct.stdout, stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
>   universal_newlines=True
> )
> for line in seff.communicate()[0].splitlines():
>     ...

Indeed, seff cannot read multiple jobids.  That's why had 'xargs' in the
original bash code.  Initially I thought of calling 'xargs' via
Popen, but this seemed very fiddly (I didn't manage to get it working)
and anyway seemed a bit weird to me as it is really just a loop, which I
can implement perfectly well in Python.

Cheers,

Loris


>>              seff_output = []
>>              for line in seff.stdout:
>>                  seff_output.append(str(line.strip(), "UTF-8"))
>>
>>              ...
>>
>> but compared the to the bash pipeline, this all seems a bit laboured.
>>
>> Does any one have a better approach?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Loris
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 6:34 PM
>>> To: Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net>
>>> Cc: python-list at python.org
>>> Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
>>>
>>> On 24Mar2021 12:00, Avi Gross <avigross at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> But I wonder how much languages like AWK are still used to make new
>>>> programs as compared to a time they were really useful.
>>>
>>> You mentioned in an adjacent post that you've not used AWK since 2000.
>>> By contrast, I still use it regularly.
>>>
>>> It's great for proof of concept at the command line or in small scripts, and
>>> as the innards of quite useful scripts. I've a trite "colsum" script which
>>> does nothing but generate and run a little awk programme to sum a column,
>>> and routinely type "blah .... | colsum 2" or the like to get a tally.
>>>
>>> I totally agree that once you're processing a lot of data from places or
>>> where a shell script is making long pipelines or many command invocations,
>>> if that's a performance issue it is time to recode.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>>
>> Footnotes:
>> [1]  https://orgmode.org/
>>
>
-- 
Dr. Loris Bennett (Hr./Mr.)
ZEDAT, Freie Universit?t Berlin         Email loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de

From dciprus at cisco.com  Thu Mar 25 08:10:40 2021
From: dciprus at cisco.com (Dan Ciprus (dciprus))
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 12:10:40 +0000
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <00d301d720c1$71322e50$53968af0$@verizon.net>
References: <20210323153725.GA13276@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <YFpt3gI6xS4nFdS8@cskk.homeip.net>
 <00d301d720c1$71322e50$53968af0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20210325121038.ds4yg7hqdwdjlkwk@localhost>

... funny thing is that OP never contributed to this discussion. Several people 
provided very valuable inputs but OP did not even bother to say "thank you".

just saying ...

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:22:02AM -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
>Cameron,
>
>I agree with you. I first encountered AWK in 1982 when I went to work for
>Bell Labs.
>
>I have not had any reason to use AWK since before the year 2000 so I was not
>sure that unused variables were initialized to zero. The code seemed to
>assume that. I have learned quite a few languages since and after a while,
>they tend to blend into each other.
>
>I think it would indeed have been more AWKthonic (or should that be called
>AWKward?) to have a BEGIN section in which functions were declared and
>variables clearly initialized but the language does allow some quick and
>dirty ways to do things and clearly the original programmer used some.
>
>Which brings us back to languages like python. When I started using AWK and
>a slew of other UNIX programs years ago, what I found interesting is how
>much AWK was patterned a bit on the C language, not a surprise as the K in
>AWK is Brian Kernighan who had a hand in C. But unlike C that made me wait
>around as it compiled, AWK was a bit more of an interpreted language and I
>could write one-liner shell scripts (well, stretched over a few lines if
>needed) that did things. True, if you stuck an entire program in a BEGIN
>statement and did not actually loop over data, it seems a tad wasteful. But
>sometimes it was handy to use it to test out a bit of C code I was writing
>without waiting for the whole compile thing. In a sense, it was  bit like
>using the python REPL and getting raid feedback. Of course, when I was an
>early adopter of C++, too many things were not in AWK!
>
>What gets me is the original question which made it sound a bit like asking
>how you would translate some fairly simple program from language A to
>language B. For some fairly simple programs, the translation effort could be
>minimal. There are often trivial mappings between similar constructs. Quite
>a bit of python simply takes a block of code in another language that is
>between curly braces, and lines it up indented below whatever it modifies
>and after a colon. The reverse may be similarly trivial. There are of course
>many such changes needed for some languages but when some novel twist is
>used that the language does not directly support, you may need to innovate
>or do a rewrite that avoids it. But still, except in complicated
>expressions, you can rewrite x++ to "x += 1" if that is available or "x = x
>+ 1" or "x -> x + 1" or whatever.
>
>What gets me here is that AWK in his program  was being used exactly for
>what it was designed. Python is more general-purpose. Had we been asked (not
>on this forum) to convert that AWK script to PERL, it would have been much
>more straightforward because PERL was also designed to be able to read in
>lines and break them into parts and act on them. It has constructs like the
>diamond operator or split that make it easy.
>
>Hence, at the end, I suggested Tomasz may want to do his task not using just
>basic python but some module others have already shared that emulates some
>of the filter aspects of AWK. That may make it easier to just translate the
>bits of code to python while largely leaving the logic in place, depending
>on the module.
>
>Just to go way off the rails, was our annoying cross-poster from a while
>back also promising to include a language like AWK into their universal
>translator by just saving some JSON descriptions?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
>Behalf Of Cameron Simpson
>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2021 6:38 PM
>To: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>
>Cc: Avi Gross via Python-list <python-list at python.org>
>Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
>
>On 23Mar2021 16:37, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:
>>On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 10:40:01AM -0400, Avi Gross via Python-list wrote:
>>[...]
>>> I am a tod concerned as to where any of the variables x, y or z have
>>> been defined at this point. I have not seen a BEGIN {...}
>>> pattern/action or anywhere these have been initialized but they are
>>> set in a function that as far as I know has not been called. Weird.
>>> Maybe awk is allowing an uninitialized variable to be tested for in
>>> your code but if so, you need to be cautious how you do this in python.
>>
>>As far as I can say, the type of uninitialised variable is groked from
>>the first operation on it. I.e., "count += 1" first initializes count
>>to 0 and then adds 1.
>>
>>This might depend on exact awk being used. There were few of them
>>during last 30+ years. I just assume it does as I wrote above.
>
>I'm pretty sure this behaviour's been there since very early times. I think
>it was there when I learnt awk, decades ago.
>
>>Using BEGIN would be in better style, of course.
>
>Aye. Always good to be up front about initial values.
>
>>There is a very nice book, "The AWK Programming Language" by Aho,
>>Kernighan and Weinberger. First printed in 1988, now free and in pdf
>>format. Go search.
>
>Yes, a really nice book. [... walks into the other room to get his copy ...]
>October 1988.
>
>Wow. There're 11 pages of good example programmes before any need for user
>variables at all. But at "1.5, Counting" is the sentence:
>
>    Awk variables used as numbers begin life with the value 0, so we
>    don't need to initialise emp.
>
>Which is great for writing ad hoc scripts, particularly on the command line.
>But not a great style for anything complex.
>
>Cheers,
>Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>
>--
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>-- 
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

-- 
Daniel Ciprus                              .:|:.:|:.
CONSULTING ENGINEER.CUSTOMER DELIVERY   Cisco Systems Inc.
dciprus at cisco.com
tel: +1-703-484-0205
mob: +1-540-223-7098

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From mal at europython.eu  Thu Mar 25 09:35:00 2021
From: mal at europython.eu (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 14:35:00 +0100
Subject: Let's celebrate: 20 years of EuroPython
Message-ID: <0e130e6c-2d73-ac6e-7b00-8b7c9c9fc5e9@europython.eu>

This year's conference will mark the 20th edition of the EuroPython
conference.

                        * EuroPython 2021 *

                   https://ep2021.europython.eu/


Since we started touring Europe in 2002 in Charleroi, Belgium, we have
come a long way. The conference has grown from the initial 240 to around
1200-1400 attendees every year. The organization had started with a
small group of people in a somewhat ad-hoc way and has now grown into a
well structured team backed by the non-profit EuroPython Society (EPS),
while still keeping the fun spirit of the early days.

EuroPython 2002 was the first major all volunteer run event for Python.
A lot of other conferences have since emerged in Europe and we're
actively trying to help them wherever we can, with our grants program,
growing conference knowledge base and our Organizers' Lunch, for which
we regularly invite representatives of all European Python conferences
to get together to network, exchange experience in organizing events
community building and understand how we can most effectively help each
other.

To celebrate the anniversary, we took a deep look into our archives and
have put together live website copies of the last few years, going back
all the way to EP2009, which was held in Birmingham, UK. For previous
years, archive.org stored some pages of the websites, so let's do a
quick tour of 20 years of EuroPython ...

https://blog.europython.eu/20th-anniversary-of-europython/


Help spread the word
--------------------

Please help us spread this message by sharing it on your social
networks as widely as possible. Thank you !

Link to the blog post:

https://blog.europython.eu/20th-anniversary-of-europython/

Tweet:

https://twitter.com/europython/status/1375077502851420160


Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2021 Team
https://www.europython-society.org/


From python at blackward.eu  Thu Mar 25 21:00:33 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 02:00:33 +0100
Subject: python documentation
Message-ID: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>

Howdy Folks,


I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other 
parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:


https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/



Blythooon can be found here:

https://pypi.org/project/blythooon/

and the belonging installation step-by-step-guide video here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE8xqYS_2azFsFjBVEwVMg



May I ask - how can I do that best? Thanks in advance and


Best Regards
Dominik

From dtechdtec155 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 07:51:50 2021
From: dtechdtec155 at gmail.com (Anis4Games)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:51:50 +0100
Subject: Help Please
Message-ID: <CAK197dytpCNQRbbZvKRKcLKJ2tyUAp+0ubUoK_0B+Ytpep5phg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello python support team , i need help about packages and python modules

That Video Will Explain My Problem

The Problem : Is Im Installed [Socks] Alredy With Command => pip install
socks

But When i run some script using socks pack its show a error with message "
import socks " no socks modules found

So Please Help Me?

From pankaj at codeisgreat.org  Fri Mar 26 02:21:36 2021
From: pankaj at codeisgreat.org (Pankaj Jangid)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:51:36 +0530
Subject: convert script awk in python
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <s3hesk$epl$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID: <m2wntu5tan.fsf@codeisgreat.org>

Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus at gmx.de> writes:

> The closest equivalent I can come up with in Python is this:
>
> ==============================
> import sys
>
> s=0
> for line in sys.stdin:
>     try:
>         s += float(line.split()[1])
>     except:
>         pass
> print(s)
> ===================================
>
>
> I don't want to cram this into a python -c " "  line, if it even is
> possible; how do you handle indentation levels and loops??
>

I agree. Perhaps we need a ?awk? module/package. I see that there is one
in PyPI but that was last updated in 2016.

-- 
Regards,
Pankaj Jangid


From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:33:21 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 03:33:21 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> Howdy Folks,
>
>
> I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
> parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:
>

What makes it notable?

ChrisA

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:42:30 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 11:42:30 -0500
Subject: Help Please
In-Reply-To: <CAK197dytpCNQRbbZvKRKcLKJ2tyUAp+0ubUoK_0B+Ytpep5phg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK197dytpCNQRbbZvKRKcLKJ2tyUAp+0ubUoK_0B+Ytpep5phg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTyN0Asxqd0uOgee_eGRHWEtvY4VNM_-xcFFqb_5TEv2cw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:36 AM Anis4Games <dtechdtec155 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello python support team , i need help about packages and python modules
>
> That Video Will Explain My Problem
>

Please don't send any attachment to the list - it will be dropped from the
E-mail.

Cut'n'paste any errors you receive directly in the body of the message.

On top of that - usual stanza applies:

1. OS - Windows, Linux, Mac?
2. OS version?
3. Python version?
4. Are you able to run python interpretor?
5. Socks version you are trying to install?
6. Was install successful?

Thank you.


> The Problem : Is Im Installed [Socks] Alredy With Command => pip install
> socks
>
> But When i run some script using socks pack its show a error with message "
> import socks " no socks modules found
>
> So Please Help Me?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From python at blackward.eu  Fri Mar 26 16:49:29 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:49:29 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>

Hi Chris,


thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.


Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with some 
of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':

1) pythonxy seems not to be maintained anymore - the last version I 
found is from 2015.

Blythooon is still maintained and the last version is from February 
2021.


2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.

Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.


3) When using Anaconda Python you might not only have to respect the 
anaconda/miniconda licenses but also the terms of service of the 
belonging website. For commercial uses that might pose some problems. If 
you have a peek into the text:

https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/

You may find statements alike "we are not granting you permission to use 
the Repository for commercial activities" or "Your use of the Repository 
is at the sole discretion of Anaconda, which may deny you further use of 
the Repository or terminate this license at any time, for any reason, 
with or without cause." there... Companies tend to have problems with 
this :)

Blythooon is a netinstaller which downloads from python.org and 
pypi.org. No comparable limitations are known to me for these sources.


4) Blythooon is not a distribution in the original sense; it is a 
netinstaller, which is able to download, (md5-)check and install a 
'snapshot' of packages/versions:

    - Python 2.7.18
    - Virtualenv 20.2.2
    - PySide 1.2.2
    - NumPy 1.16.6
    - PyQtGraph 0.10.0
    - Matplotlib 2.2.5
    - SciPy 1.1.0
    - PySerial 3.5
    - Pyadaaah 0.90

and some further packages supporting said ones. This compilation has 
been carefully assembled to allow the development of advanced, 
production quality, scientific, Python 2.7 applications with Qt 4.8 
based GUIs and the ability to display nice (live) plots (via PyQtGraph 
and/or Matplotlib). Blythooon obviously comes with some mathematical 
stuff alike NumPy or SciPy too.

Said versions work together well. The developer does not need to find 
out, which versions work together well. Because that is not easy. Try 
e.g. PyQtGraph 0.11.* with PySide 1.2.* - you might be
disappointed then, as well as if you would be trying PyQtGraph 0.10.* 
with PySide 1.2.4.

All Blythooon installations, if not manually modified, are 100% 
compatible, as I said, it is more a 'snapshot' then a permanently 
self-updating distribution... Blythooon does not focus on up-to-dateness 
but on proven stability and compatibility. But, as Blythooon sets up a 
Python Runtime Environment just based on PIP, the developer naturally 
can tailor his installation further (e.g. by installing further packages 
or upgrading the existing).

Blythooon is a (nearly fully) automatic netinstaller for Windows 10 only 
(at least yet, depending on the feedback, porting to Linux / macOS could 
be done easily - the netinstaller is based on the platform independent 
powershell).


I hope, some aspects are notable enough...


Best Regards
Dominik










On 2021-03-26 17:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> 
>> Howdy Folks,
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
>> parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:
>> 
> 
> What makes it notable?
> 
> ChrisA

From python at blackward.eu  Fri Mar 26 16:52:03 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:52:03 +0100
Subject: python documentation - addendum
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3496087528117499ce86a637a99d8462@blackward.eu>

Sorry, copy & paste obviously failed, here is the link I wanted to 
include:

https://www.anaconda.com/terms-of-service



On 2021-03-26 17:33, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:31 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> 
>> Howdy Folks,
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other
>> parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:
>> 
> 
> What makes it notable?
> 
> ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:57:32 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:57:32 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 7:49 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
>
> thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.
>
>
> Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with some
> of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':
>
> 2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.
>
> Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.
>

Ah. That is indeed notable, but not in a good way. You are encouraging
the use of an end-of-life version of Python, and your installer has
very little to boast beyond that.

ChrisA

From torriem at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 20:31:41 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:31:41 -0600
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>

On 3/25/21 1:14 AM, Loris Bennett wrote:
> Does any one have a better approach?

Not as such.  Running a command and parsing its output is a relatively
common task. Years ago I wrote my own simple python wrapper function
that would make it easier to run a program with arguments, and capture
its output.  I ended up using that wrapper many times, which saved a lot
of time.

When it comes to converting a bash pipeline process to Python, it's
worth considering that most of pipelines seem to involve parsing using
sed or awk (as yours do), which is way easier to do from python without
that kind of pipelining. However there is a fantastic article I read
years ago about how generators are python's equivalent to a pipe.
Anyone wanting to replace a bash script with python should read this:

https://www.dabeaz.com/generators/Generators.pdf

Also there's an interesting shell scripting language based on Python
called xonsh which makes it much easier to interact with processes like
bash does, but still leveraging Python to process the output.
https://xon.sh/ .

From avigross at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 21:06:19 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:06:19 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <039401d722a5$65bde150$3139a3f0$@verizon.net>

Michael,

A generator that opens one file at a time (or STDIN) in a consistent manner,
would be a reasonable thing to have as part of emulating AWK.

As I see it, you may want a bit more that includes having it know how to
parse each line it reads into some version of names that in Python might not
be $1 and $2 types of names but may be an array of strings with the complete
line perhaps being in array[0] and each  of the parts.

Clearly you would place whatever equivalent BEGIN statements in your code
above the call to the generator  then have something like a for loop
assigning the result of the generator to a variable and your multiple
condition/action parts in the loop. You then have the END outside the loop.

But it is far from as simple as that to emulate what AWK does such as
deciding whether you stop matching patterns once the first match is found
and executed. As I noted, some AWK features do not line up with normal
python such as assuming variables not initialized are zero or "" depending
on context. There may well be scoping issues and other things to consider.
And clearly you need to do things by hand if you want a character string to
be treated as an integer, ...

But all fairly doable, albeit not sure an easy translation between an AWK
script into python is trivial, or even a good idea. 

You could do a similar concept with other utilities like sed or grep or
other such filter utilities where the same generator, or a variant, might
automate things. I am pretty sure some module or other has done things like
this.

It is common in a language like PERL to do something like this:

while(<>)
{
  # get rid of the pesky newline character
  chomp;

  # read the fields in the current record into an array
  @fields = split(':', $_);

# DO stuff
}

The <> diamond operator is a sort of generator that reads in a line at a
time from as many files as needed and sticks it in $_ by default and then
you throw away the newline and split the line and then do what you wish
after that. No reason python cannot have something similar, maybe more
wordy.

Disclaimer: I am not suggesting people use AWK or PERL or anything else. The
focus is if people come from other programming environments and are looking
at how to do common tasks in python.


-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Michael Torrie
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 8:32 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: convert script awk in python

On 3/25/21 1:14 AM, Loris Bennett wrote:
> Does any one have a better approach?

Not as such.  Running a command and parsing its output is a relatively
common task. Years ago I wrote my own simple python wrapper function that
would make it easier to run a program with arguments, and capture its
output.  I ended up using that wrapper many times, which saved a lot of
time.

When it comes to converting a bash pipeline process to Python, it's worth
considering that most of pipelines seem to involve parsing using sed or awk
(as yours do), which is way easier to do from python without that kind of
pipelining. However there is a fantastic article I read years ago about how
generators are python's equivalent to a pipe.
Anyone wanting to replace a bash script with python should read this:

https://www.dabeaz.com/generators/Generators.pdf

Also there's an interesting shell scripting language based on Python called
xonsh which makes it much easier to interact with processes like bash does,
but still leveraging Python to process the output.
https://xon.sh/ .
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com  Fri Mar 26 21:42:59 2021
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com (2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 21:42:59 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <039401d722a5$65bde150$3139a3f0$@verizon.net>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
 <039401d722a5$65bde150$3139a3f0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <YF6NozCfJ6YWpcIU@scrozzle>

On 2021-03-26 at 21:06:19 -0400,
Avi Gross via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> A generator that opens one file at a time (or STDIN) in a consistent
> manner, would be a reasonable thing to have as part of emulating AWK.

https://docs.python.org/3/library/fileinput.html

From avigross at verizon.net  Fri Mar 26 22:56:40 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:56:40 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <YF6NozCfJ6YWpcIU@scrozzle>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
 <039401d722a5$65bde150$3139a3f0$@verizon.net> <YF6NozCfJ6YWpcIU@scrozzle>
Message-ID: <073c01d722b4$d02f2fd0$708d8f70$@verizon.net>

	https://docs.python.org/3/library/fileinput.html

Dan,

Yes, fileinput sounds like what I described and more. It does indeed seem
to emulate the interface in programs like AWK including using "-" as a
placeholder for standard input. Now all you need is to have it also do the
split!

?vi ?. Gr??

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE at potatochowder.com
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 9:43 PM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Re: convert script awk in python

On 2021-03-26 at 21:06:19 -0400,
Avi Gross via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> A generator that opens one file at a time (or STDIN) in a consistent 
> manner, would be a reasonable thing to have as part of emulating AWK.

https://docs.python.org/3/library/fileinput.html
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From python at blackward.eu  Fri Mar 26 23:15:15 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 04:15:15 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>

No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.

Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my 
impression when I started - after all Python originally had been 
designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one mayor 
reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.

But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.

It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it 
might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the 
possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly 
when infantilised.

If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the 
python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not 
to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?

By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have 
written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable 
MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific 
FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why 
Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough, 
that it is another one?

But, in the end, this naturally is not my decision.

Cheers, Dominik







On 2021-03-26 22:57, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 7:49 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Chris,
>> 
>> 
>> thank you for your interest and thanks for asking.
>> 
>> 
>> Blythooon is notable due to several reasons; let's compare it with 
>> some
>> of the already listed (and thus obviously notable) 'distributions':
>> 
>> 2) winpython seems not to support Python 2.7.* anymore.
>> 
>> Blythooon supports Python 2.7.18.
>> 
> 
> Ah. That is indeed notable, but not in a good way. You are encouraging
> the use of an end-of-life version of Python, and your installer has
> very little to boast beyond that.
> 
> ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 23:44:15 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:44:15 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.
>
> Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my
> impression when I started - after all Python originally had been
> designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one mayor
> reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.
>
> But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.
>
> It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it
> might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the
> possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly
> when infantilised.

Why do you install 2.7.18? Isn't it a bad idea to FORCE people onto
that particular version, instead of letting them run 2.7.9 or 2.7.1 if
they choose? Does it infringe on their freedoms by offering only one
version?

If people want a specific version, they can get it. There's no reason
to promote the use of outdated versions.

> If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the
> python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not
> to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?

You have a pre-1.0 distribution of an end-of-life version of Python
that works on a very specific platform. That's fine. But there's no
reason to have it promoted anywhere.

> By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
> written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
> MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
> FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
> Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
> that it is another one?
>

Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.

Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
rest in peace?

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Mar 27 00:10:22 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 04:10:22 +0000
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12b78144-8d07-05c2-9fa8-a456d380c699@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-27 03:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>>
[snip]
>> By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
>> written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
>> MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
>> FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
>> Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
>> that it is another one?
>>
> 
> Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
> originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
> to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.
> 
> Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
> since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
> 2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
> rest in peace?
> 
It's not dead; it's just pining for the fjords. :-)

From python at blackward.eu  Sat Mar 27 01:20:44 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 06:20:44 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>

Chris,

you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason and 
that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply 
not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging 
libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see / 
accept these arguments.

By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and 
gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python 
and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor 
and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging 
packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.

With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even gives 
me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely more 
on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent in 
both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an early 
stage.

But to be honest, I see no reason to discuss that further, you seem to 
be quite determined - so be it. Ignore Blythooon. I have no disadvantage 
by that, as I would not have an advantage the other way round, so I am 
fine with it.

Best Regards
Dominik






On 2021-03-27 04:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 2:15 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> 
>> No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.
>> 
>> Python and its community once was not dogmatic. At least this was my
>> impression when I started - after all Python originally had been
>> designed to be multi paradigmatic. This spirit of freedom was one 
>> mayor
>> reason for Python to grow so fast - from my POV.
>> 
>> But freedom is constituted by freedom of choice.
>> 
>> It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, 
>> it
>> might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the
>> possibility to install Python 2.7.*; some people tend to react badly
>> when infantilised.
> 
> Why do you install 2.7.18? Isn't it a bad idea to FORCE people onto
> that particular version, instead of letting them run 2.7.9 or 2.7.1 if
> they choose? Does it infringe on their freedoms by offering only one
> version?
> 
> If people want a specific version, they can get it. There's no reason
> to promote the use of outdated versions.
> 
>> If I am right, the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the
>> python.org website. So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not
>> to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?
> 
> You have a pre-1.0 distribution of an end-of-life version of Python
> that works on a very specific platform. That's fine. But there's no
> reason to have it promoted anywhere.
> 
>> By the way, there is more, Blythooon offers beyond what I already have
>> written in the last email. Otherwise please name me another comparable
>> MINIMAL 'distribution', which is compiled specifically for scientific
>> FRONTend development? In terms of diversity I also cannot see, why
>> Blythooon MUST have something special to be listed? Is it not enough,
>> that it is another one?
>> 
> 
> Nope, not enough for it to be promoted. The page you linked to
> originally is a very short list of only those which are notable enough
> to be worth promoting. And from what I'm seeing, yours isn't.
> 
> Move to Python 3 and leave the old version behind. It has been a year
> since Python 2 received any updates at all, and over a decade since
> 2.7 was originally released. Isn't it time it was finally permitted to
> rest in peace?
> 
> ChrisA

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 01:36:54 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:36:54 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason and
> that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
> not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
> libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
> accept these arguments.
>
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.

FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
visibility.

> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even gives
> me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely more
> on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent in
> both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an early
> stage.

If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
<some other language> rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
it keeps coming up.

ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 02:01:36 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 23:01:36 -0700
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
> > By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
> > gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
> > and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
> > and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
> > packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.
>
> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
> visibility.
>
Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.

Dominik, if you want something like Python 2.7, you likely should try
Tauthon or Pypy2.  Don't expect pip to work well on Tauthon; last I heard
that was not happening.  Also Pypy2 has some issues with C extension
modules, and I'm not confident it'll pip well either.  It's very worthwhile
to move to 3.x, but CPython has a rather sad compatibility story when it
comes to C extension modules; hopefully CFFI is going to fix that in the
long term. If you're avoiding porting pure Python code, then that feels to
me a bit like foot dragging, as the pure Python changes are not that big
and are pretty much limited to the 2.7 -> 3.0 transition.

I like to build versions of Python from 0.9 to 3.10alpha, for the sake of
quickly ascertaining what features were introduced in what versions of
CPython.  IOW, there are good reasons to keep around old Pythons.  Python
history is interesting.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 03:20:14 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 18:20:14 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmo+eCAHGKhKyXM-dVLnYj-cRNpVubpDV5VbiCNehNjWZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 5:01 PM Dan Stromberg <drsalists at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> > By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
>> > gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
>> > and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
>> > and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>> > packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.
>>
>> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
>> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
>> visibility.
>
> Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.
>

Do we have proof of any of the above?

ChrisA

From python at blackward.eu  Sat Mar 27 12:56:45 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 17:56:45 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aadcae34f1db03576ede0db455c96f59@blackward.eu>

Hi Dan,


thank you very much for your kind hints - quite interesting idea to have 
a more detailed look into this direction!

By the way, your response was the very first here, which I consider to 
have a constructive notion; at least I did not felt very welcome here by 
Chris until yet...

In the last project I developed the frontend on said C# - WinForms basis 
(C# and .NET is quite awesome! Most of it meanwhile has even become 
crossplatform! By the way, as Spyder also has this "just 3" notion, I 
already switched to VSCodium and never regretted that - VSCodium is the 
best free IDE for Python as well as C# yet, if you ask me:) and just 
parts of the backend with IronPython (which also is nice, although it 
just has access to a limited set of libraries). It worked fine, but I do 
not like mixing languages if not necessary as I deem that to be a 
software design weakness and it naturally comes with some overhead. 
Imagine, if another person one day should continue this work, he must be 
fluent in Python AND C#, not so easy to find someone free who is on the 
market I guess...

Blythooon solves the current issues well, so at the moment, there is no 
pressing reason for me to become frantic. But considering the long term, 
those thoughts are naturally real. The obvious trend to force people to 
switch to Python 3 might lead to people even eliminating the access to 
the old packages Blythooon is using. This sword of Damocles is a heavy 
burden.

If anybody thinks that is a little too much seeing on the black side, 
then they should attentively follow what at the very moment is happening 
with the current Qt version...

May I ask, do you have any knowledge or even experience about if resp. 
how good Tauthon and Pypy2 works together with Qt 4.8?

 From my experience the limitating factor during frontend development is 
nearly always the GUI part. Kivy seems to be nice, but scientific 
plotters alike PyQtGraph are Qt based and cannot easily be integrated in 
Kivy yet.


Have a nice day,
Best Regards
Dominik







On 2021-03-27 07:01, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:37 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> > By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and
>> > gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
>> > and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
>> > and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>> > packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own death.
>> 
>> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
>> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
>> visibility.
>> 
> Chris, not everything you dislike is anti-Python FUD.
> 
> Dominik, if you want something like Python 2.7, you likely should try
> Tauthon or Pypy2.  Don't expect pip to work well on Tauthon; last I 
> heard
> that was not happening.  Also Pypy2 has some issues with C extension
> modules, and I'm not confident it'll pip well either.  It's very 
> worthwhile
> to move to 3.x, but CPython has a rather sad compatibility story when 
> it
> comes to C extension modules; hopefully CFFI is going to fix that in 
> the
> long term. If you're avoiding porting pure Python code, then that feels 
> to
> me a bit like foot dragging, as the pure Python changes are not that 
> big
> and are pretty much limited to the 2.7 -> 3.0 transition.
> 
> I like to build versions of Python from 0.9 to 3.10alpha, for the sake 
> of
> quickly ascertaining what features were introduced in what versions of
> CPython.  IOW, there are good reasons to keep around old Pythons.  
> Python
> history is interesting.

From python at blackward.eu  Sat Mar 27 13:03:32 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 18:03:32 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>

You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other 
language rather than to migrate to Python 3".

Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!





On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>> 
>> Chris,
>> 
>> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
>> and
>> that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
>> not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
>> libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
>> accept these arguments.
>> 
>> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
>> and
>> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
>> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
>> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
>> death.
> 
> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
> visibility.
> 
>> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
>> gives
>> me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
>> more
>> on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent 
>> in
>> both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
>> early
>> stage.
> 
> If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
> <some other language> rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
> calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
> it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.
> 
> Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
> it keeps coming up.
> 
> ChrisA

From drsalists at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 13:35:14 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 10:35:14 -0700
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <aadcae34f1db03576ede0db455c96f59@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_ofkcB-74mb=vpbZkbV8B1E0WmbM2r23taeTCxaXcLbog@mail.gmail.com>
 <aadcae34f1db03576ede0db455c96f59@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_rdeRAy-0F00dFk0nnRzbVW0UtcNSx_vTgyKcL+xCp4Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 9:56 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:

> May I ask, do you have any knowledge or even experience about if resp.
> how good Tauthon and Pypy2 works together with Qt 4.8?
>

I've never used Qt.  I do my GUI's with PyGOBject.

I've moved all of my personal code that I care about from Python 2.x to
3.x.  One of my former employers was forced to remain on 2.x though,
because they were using Nupic (for Hierarchical Temporal Memory, AKA HTM),
which will likely never be ported to 3.x because it digs around in
CPython's C API in less-than-well-behaved ways, and the vendor that created
Nupic is moving on to new techniques.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 13:38:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 04:38:18 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQmZwB+1UtXMEtcexCKRihDesA+UAwAiUANLQmZQe2Mg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 4:03 AM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
>
> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
>

Yep. Plenty of people have claimed that. And guess what? They mostly
end up deciding to move to Python 3 instead, because, what a surprise,
it's actually a lot easier than completely rewriting your code in a
different language. That's why I no longer try to argue people around.
Go ahead and change languages - it's entirely up to you what you do.

ChrisA

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Mar 27 13:53:21 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 17:53:21 +0000
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-27 17:03, python at blackward.eu wrote:
> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
> 
> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
> 
You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone claims 
that it's easier to move to <some other language> rather than to migrate 
to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."

The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to 
move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2 to 
some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what seems 
questionable.

> 
> On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Chris,
>>> 
>>> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
>>> and
>>> that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is simply
>>> not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
>>> libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
>>> accept these arguments.
>>> 
>>> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
>>> and
>>> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of Python
>>> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of minor
>>> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>>> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
>>> death.
>> 
>> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
>> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
>> visibility.
>> 
>>> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
>>> gives
>>> me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
>>> more
>>> on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am fluent 
>>> in
>>> both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
>>> early
>>> stage.
>> 
>> If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
>> <some other language> rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
>> calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
>> it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.
>> 
>> Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how
>> it keeps coming up.
>> 


From lucas at bourneuf.net  Sat Mar 27 13:53:15 2021
From: lucas at bourneuf.net (lucas)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 18:53:15 +0100
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
Message-ID: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>

Following our previous discussion:
     https://www.talkend.net/post/287193.html

I finally took time (thanks to Florian R.) to get a reproducible example 
of my problem, as asked previously by ChrisA.

The following code is implementing a webserver with Flask, and a client 
with the XMLRPC client:

     import sys
     from xmlrpc import server, client
     from urllib.parse import urlencode
     from flask import Flask, request


     PORT = 23456
     USER, PASSWD = 'user', 'password'
     URL = '127.0.0.1:' + str(PORT)

     if len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == 'server':
         app = Flask(__name__)
         @app.route('/', methods=['POST'])
         @app.route('/RPC2', methods=['POST'])
         def login():
             print('REQUEST:', request.args)
             return 'ok'
         app.run(debug=True, host='localhost', port=PORT)

     else:
         url = 'http://' + URL + '?' + urlencode({'u': USER, 'p': PASSWD})
         print(url)
         proxy = client.ServerProxy(url)
         print(proxy, dir(proxy))
         print(proxy.add(2, 3))


You can run the client with `python3 p.py`, and the server with `python3 
p.py server`.

On debian, Python 3.7, i got:

     lucas at debianserver:~$ python3.7 p.py server
      * Serving Flask app "p" (lazy loading)
      * Environment: production
        WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a 
production deployment.
        Use a production WSGI server instead.
      * Debug mode: on
      * Running on http://localhost:23456/ (Press CTRL+C to quit)
      * Restarting with stat
      * Debugger is active!
      * Debugger PIN: 249-992-288
     127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password 
HTTP/1.1" 404 -


On Arch, python 3.9, i got:

      aluriak at arch? python3.9 p.py server
      * Serving Flask app "p" (lazy loading)
      * Environment: production
        WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a 
production deployment.
        Use a production WSGI server instead.
      * Debug mode: on
      * Running on http://localhost:23456/ (Press CTRL+C to quit)
      * Restarting with stat
      * Debugger is active!
      * Debugger PIN: 821-276-100
     127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -


Both systems return the same output on command `pip3 freeze | grep 
Flask`, which is `Flask==1.1.2`.


Note that the two outputs differs in two ways:

     127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password 
HTTP/1.1" 404 -
     127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -

The first contains the arguments, and the second contains the path. 
Sounds like there is something wrong with both modules.

This should be a reproducible example ; plus i'm not the only one to 
encounter that problem:
     https://github.com/kynan/dokuwikixmlrpc/issues/8#issuecomment-808755244

Best regards,
--lucas

From lucas at bourneuf.net  Sat Mar 27 14:04:15 2021
From: lucas at bourneuf.net (lucas)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:04:15 +0100
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
Message-ID: <6377d243-4f78-dbfa-ed15-7883d6e9387d@bourneuf.net>

And, in my outputs, a key part is missing: the received arguments as 
parsed by Flask:

Python 3.7:
     REQUEST: ImmutableMultiDict([('u', 'user'), ('p', 'password')])

Python 3.9:
     REQUEST: ImmutableMultiDict([])


Have a good day everyone,
--lucas


On 27/03/2021 18:53, lucas wrote:
> Following our previous discussion:
>  ??? https://www.talkend.net/post/287193.html
> 
> I finally took time (thanks to Florian R.) to get a reproducible example 
> of my problem, as asked previously by ChrisA.
> 
> The following code is implementing a webserver with Flask, and a client 
> with the XMLRPC client:
> 
>  ??? import sys
>  ??? from xmlrpc import server, client
>  ??? from urllib.parse import urlencode
>  ??? from flask import Flask, request
> 
> 
>  ??? PORT = 23456
>  ??? USER, PASSWD = 'user', 'password'
>  ??? URL = '127.0.0.1:' + str(PORT)
> 
>  ??? if len(sys.argv) > 1 and sys.argv[1] == 'server':
>  ??????? app = Flask(__name__)
>  ??????? @app.route('/', methods=['POST'])
>  ??????? @app.route('/RPC2', methods=['POST'])
>  ??????? def login():
>  ??????????? print('REQUEST:', request.args)
>  ??????????? return 'ok'
>  ??????? app.run(debug=True, host='localhost', port=PORT)
> 
>  ??? else:
>  ??????? url = 'http://' + URL + '?' + urlencode({'u': USER, 'p': PASSWD})
>  ??????? print(url)
>  ??????? proxy = client.ServerProxy(url)
>  ??????? print(proxy, dir(proxy))
>  ??????? print(proxy.add(2, 3))
> 
> 
> You can run the client with `python3 p.py`, and the server with `python3 
> p.py server`.
> 
> On debian, Python 3.7, i got:
> 
>  ??? lucas at debianserver:~$ python3.7 p.py server
>  ???? * Serving Flask app "p" (lazy loading)
>  ???? * Environment: production
>  ?????? WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a 
> production deployment.
>  ?????? Use a production WSGI server instead.
>  ???? * Debug mode: on
>  ???? * Running on http://localhost:23456/ (Press CTRL+C to quit)
>  ???? * Restarting with stat
>  ???? * Debugger is active!
>  ???? * Debugger PIN: 249-992-288
>  ??? 127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password 
> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
> 
> 
> On Arch, python 3.9, i got:
> 
>  ???? aluriak at arch? python3.9 p.py server
>  ???? * Serving Flask app "p" (lazy loading)
>  ???? * Environment: production
>  ?????? WARNING: This is a development server. Do not use it in a 
> production deployment.
>  ?????? Use a production WSGI server instead.
>  ???? * Debug mode: on
>  ???? * Running on http://localhost:23456/ (Press CTRL+C to quit)
>  ???? * Restarting with stat
>  ???? * Debugger is active!
>  ???? * Debugger PIN: 821-276-100
>  ??? 127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -
> 
> 
> Both systems return the same output on command `pip3 freeze | grep 
> Flask`, which is `Flask==1.1.2`.
> 
> 
> Note that the two outputs differs in two ways:
> 
>  ??? 127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password 
> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
>  ??? 127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -
> 
> The first contains the arguments, and the second contains the path. 
> Sounds like there is something wrong with both modules.
> 
> This should be a reproducible example ; plus i'm not the only one to 
> encounter that problem:
>      
> https://github.com/kynan/dokuwikixmlrpc/issues/8#issuecomment-808755244
> 
> Best regards,
> --lucas

From python at blackward.eu  Sat Mar 27 15:02:52 2021
From: python at blackward.eu (python at blackward.eu)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 20:02:52 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
 <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>

You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't 
want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from 
Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's 
what seems questionable."

And I say, forcing people to do things they do not want to do is a 
little more questionable. There are reasons, why people "don't want to 
move to Python 3". Maybe you should concentrate more on developing 
Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?

But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything. 
At least in this point I agree with Chris.

Cheers, have a good time
Dominik




On 2021-03-27 18:53, MRAB wrote:
> On 2021-03-27 17:03, python at blackward.eu wrote:
>> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some 
>> other
>> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
>> 
> You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone claims
> that it's easier to move to <some other language> rather than to
> migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."
> 
> The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to
> move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2 to
> some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what seems
> questionable.
> 
>> 
>> On 2021-03-27 06:36, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Chris,
>>>> 
>>>> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
>>>> and
>>>> that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
>>>> simply
>>>> not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and belonging
>>>> libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to see /
>>>> accept these arguments.
>>>> 
>>>> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
>>>> and
>>>> gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
>>>> Python
>>>> and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot of 
>>>> minor
>>>> and major incompatibilities between your subversions and belonging
>>>> packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its own 
>>>> death.
>>> 
>>> FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your
>>> distribution. Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further
>>> visibility.
>>> 
>>>> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
>>>> gives
>>>> me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to rely 
>>>> more
>>>> on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I am 
>>>> fluent in
>>>> both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right horse at an 
>>>> early
>>>> stage.
>>> 
>>> If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to
>>> <some other language> rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm
>>> calling people's bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if
>>> it's easier - it's no skin off my nose.
>>> 
>>> Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny 
>>> how
>>> it keeps coming up.
>>> 

From python at mrabarnett.plus.com  Sat Mar 27 16:04:03 2021
From: python at mrabarnett.plus.com (MRAB)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 20:04:03 +0000
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
 <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <47a090b2-4f95-b5ad-795a-2840745cca14@mrabarnett.plus.com>

On 2021-03-27 19:02, python at blackward.eu wrote:
> You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't
> want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from
> Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's
> what seems questionable."
>
> And I say, forcing people to do things they do not want to do is a
> little more questionable. There are reasons, why people "don't want to
> move to Python 3". Maybe you should concentrate more on developing
> Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?
At no point did I say that people should be forced to switch. The 
"regex" module, for example, still supports Python 2.7, but only just, 
and that won't last forever.
> But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything.
> At least in this point I agree with Chris.
>
> Cheers, have a good time
> Dominik
[snip]


From pjfarley3 at earthlink.net  Sat Mar 27 14:14:06 2021
From: pjfarley3 at earthlink.net (pjfarley3 at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:14:06 -0400
Subject: convert script awk in python
In-Reply-To: <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901d72334$fa00d8b0$ee028a10$@earthlink.net>

Many thanks for the link to that document.  Most helpful.

Peter

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2021 8:32 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Re: convert script awk in python
> 
> On 3/25/21 1:14 AM, Loris Bennett wrote:
> > Does any one have a better approach?
> 
> Not as such.  Running a command and parsing its output is a relatively
> common task. Years ago I wrote my own simple python wrapper function
> that would make it easier to run a program with arguments, and capture
> its output.  I ended up using that wrapper many times, which saved a lot
> of time.
> 
> When it comes to converting a bash pipeline process to Python, it's
> worth considering that most of pipelines seem to involve parsing using
> sed or awk (as yours do), which is way easier to do from python without
> that kind of pipelining. However there is a fantastic article I read
> years ago about how generators are python's equivalent to a pipe.
> Anyone wanting to replace a bash script with python should read this:
> 
> https://www.dabeaz.com/generators/Generators.pdf
> 
> Also there's an interesting shell scripting language based on Python
> called xonsh which makes it much easier to interact with processes like
> bash does, but still leveraging Python to process the output.
> https://xon.sh/ .
--


From avigross at verizon.net  Sat Mar 27 16:44:38 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 16:44:38 -0400
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028201d7234a$01a8c9f0$04fa5dd0$@verizon.net>

What are the odds, Chris, that rewriting an existing project written in an
older version of a language like python FROM SCRATCH into any other existing
language, would be easier than updating it to the same language which made
fairly specific changes and has some guidelines how to update?

True, if you have programmers already knowing the other language handy,
fine.

But as I study other languages, I keep finding things they often do
invisibly in the compiler or interpreter that make me wonder why anyone
thinks they can write one program that reads them all as if with a magic
ring. Some features make translations far from straightforward, not that
they cannot be done, but some thought is needed and maybe a change is
aspects of how the darn thing is built.

What you are expressing is the fact that the longer we encourage people to
keep using the old, the more painful it is to move forward with the new. At
some point, so many changes may accumulate, that catching up may not be
worth doing.

Any nontrivial program that uses many packages and modules will not find
identical things in a new target language, for example. Some nice concise
ways some things are done may work differently elsewhere and need to be
redesigned completely or lead to lots of errors.

Now if the case was being made to switch to a more recent advanced language,
maybe. But the languages he suggested strike me as fairly ancient, even if
they too have been evolving. 

As you note, he is free to do what he wishes but not free to force others to
help him when it is not in their interest.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Chris Angelico
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2021 1:37 AM
To: Python <python-list at python.org>
Subject: Re: python documentation

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:20 PM <python at blackward.eu> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
> and that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
> simply not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and 
> belonging libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to 
> see / accept these arguments.
>
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
> and gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
> Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot 
> of minor and major incompatibilities between your subversions and 
> belonging packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to its
own death.

FUD. Lots and lots of FUD. More reasons to not promote your distribution.
Use it if you will, but it doesn't merit any further visibility.

> With a view to the mid and long term future, this discussion even 
> gives me cause to ponder about whether it doesn't make more sense to 
> rely more on C# and WinForms for professional projects from now on. I 
> am fluent in both too and it always makes sense to bet on the right 
> horse at an early stage.

If you prefer, go for it. Everyone claims that it's easier to move to <some
other language> rather than to migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's
bluffs now. Go ahead and move to another language if it's easier - it's no
skin off my nose.

Or maybe it isn't easier, and that's just an empty argument. Funny how it
keeps coming up.

ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 16:58:03 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 07:58:03 +1100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <028201d7234a$01a8c9f0$04fa5dd0$@verizon.net>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <028201d7234a$01a8c9f0$04fa5dd0$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqbAS5_afMjcPMzLjTAN6CDudpauYkHZE2st3hLqXn1aA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 7:46 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> What are the odds, Chris, that rewriting an existing project written in an
> older version of a language like python FROM SCRATCH into any other existing
> language, would be easier than updating it to the same language which made
> fairly specific changes and has some guidelines how to update?
>

Exactly. Yet people keep saying, oh, Python 3 is so hard, I can't
possibly migrate from Python 2 to Python 3, it'll be easier to rewrite
it all in <some other language>...

I've completely stopped believing any such claims.

ChrisA

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 14:42:14 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:42:14 -0400
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <s3nua7$qdq$1@ciao.gmane.io>


> I would like to suggest adding "Blythooon" to the list under "Other 
> parties have re-packaged CPython" listed here:
> https://www.python.org/download/alternatives/

Your title is misleading because you are proposing a change to a 
python.org website page, not the 'Python documentation'.  That term, as 
often used, refers to the official docs at python.org/doc.  See the list 
of "Documentation" links at the bottom of the page for a broader 
interpretation, which still excludes the page you are interested in.

Note: the 'core developers' control the contents of .../downloads, 
.../doc, and some of .../dev.  The rest of the website is done by a 
different PSF group.

> Blythooon can be found here:
> https://pypi.org/project/blythooon/
> and the belonging installation step-by-step-guide video here:
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOE8xqYS_2azFsFjBVEwVMg

I don't know if the unknown to me page author(s) would consider this a 
'packaging' at they intend the term to mean.

> May I ask - how can I do that best? Thanks in advance and

At the bottom of the page is "Submit Website Bug" linked to 
https://github.com/python/pythondotorg/issues

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 15:21:51 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 15:21:51 -0400
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <s3o0kg$14ht$1@ciao.gmane.io>

I answered your actual question, in your original post, separately.  But 
by posting here, and continuing to respond, you implicitly invited 
extended discussion with questions and opinions.

On 3/26/2021 11:15 PM, python at blackward.eu wrote:

in response to Chris Angelico, a long-time python-list discussant who 
has some strong opinions, especially with regard to 2.x versus 3.x:

> No, I am not encouraging, I am just offering the possibility.

By only offering 2.7, you could be construed to be encouraging.  You 
must know that you are stepping into a long-term debate.  Your other 
comments suggests that you are not neutral.

...
> It might be a good thing to recommend people to switch to Python 3.*, it 
> might be a bad idea to FORCE people to do so by taking away the 
> possibility to install Python 2.7.*;

The there is *obviously* no intention to take away that possibility. 
The download pages have everything available, all the way back to the 
original 0.9 sources.  The latter was recently added.  So suggesting 
that the website might 'censor' 2.7 is a kind unfair.

> If I am right, 

This implies doubt.

> the Python 2.7.* installers still are provided on the 
> python.org website.

Along with Windows installers back to 1.5.2.

> So long as this is done, I cannot see a reason not 
> to list a 'distribution' using Python 2.7.* in said list, right?

Would you say the same for a 'distribution' using 2.0.1, or 1.5.2?

> But, in the end, this naturally is not my decision.

AFAIK, none of the website maintainers post on this list.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 15:42:46 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 15:42:46 -0400
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <s3o1rn$4j6$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/27/2021 1:20 AM, python at blackward.eu wrote:

> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 and 
> gave up in favor of creating said compilation.

Why?  What was biggest roadblock?

> Compatibility of Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly.

I don't believe this without a clear explanation as to what you mean and 
strong evidence.  Are you claiming that you cannot put together a 
combination of modern python + numpy + scipy + qt + ... that work 
together?  (Many people including my daughter seem to manage just fine.) 
  If there are particular problems, it would be worth discussing and 
trying to solve them.  And what would 'compatibility have to do with 
'3.x'?  (With respect to unicode, compatibility has been improved in one 
important respect since 3.3.)

> A whole lot of minor and major incompatibilities > between your subversions and belonging packages.

I don't understand 'subversions' and 'belonging packages'?

I understand 'incompatibities' in general but not what you mean 
specifically.  I don't know of any evidence that there are increased 
within, say, 3.8 or 3.9 packages versus 2.7 packages.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 15:50:48 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:50:48 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: python documentation
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
 <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Message-ID: <s3o2ao$tt9$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-27, MRAB <python at mrabarnett.plus.com> wrote:
> On 2021-03-27 17:03, python at blackward.eu wrote:
>> You write, that "Everyone claims that it's easier to move to some other
>> language rather than to migrate to Python 3".
>> 
>> Thank you for sharing this remarkable information!
>
> You've quoted him partially and incorrectly. He said "Everyone
> claims that it's easier to move to <some other language> rather than
> to migrate to Python 3, and I'm calling people's bluffs now."
>
> The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and don't want to
> move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch from Python 2
> to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3. That's what
> seems questionable.

That questionable to the point of being laughable.

I've ported a fair number of apps from Python2 to Python3. Many of
them played pretty fast and loose with py2 strings vs. raw bytes vs.
Unicode.  That causes as many 2->3 porting problems as anything can,
and it was still far, far easier to port from py2->py3 than it would
have been to port from py2 to any of the couple dozen other langauges
I've used in my career.

Though I still somtimes pine for the fixed length integer types that
were lost in the py1.5->py2 transition...

--
Grant


From kkenn32 at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 11:34:12 2021
From: kkenn32 at gmail.com (Kathleen Kennedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 11:34:12 -0400
Subject: Access to python37_d.lib
Message-ID: <CA+gGKq1KXGoCO5s70=u8DBXdfQ_Xk=p7QsUSRCe0fArvb9MqTw@mail.gmail.com>

When matplotlib-cpp from GitHub is used to add graphics to a Visual Studio
C++ Console application the following error is obtained: Cannot
open python37_d.lib.

The error was not resolved by re-installing python, including debug files.
Any assistance would be much appreciated.
JIMK

From tjol at tjol.eu  Sat Mar 27 17:39:38 2021
From: tjol at tjol.eu (Thomas Jollans)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 22:39:38 +0100
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <f8debce2-965a-0bad-2339-2ea6b3634cf0@tjol.eu>

On 27/03/2021 06:20, python at blackward.eu wrote:
> Chris,
>
> you seem to imply, that I have compiled said versions without reason 
> and that the same would be possible on basis of Python 3 - which is 
> simply not true. Maybe you are not enough acquainted with Qt and 
> belonging libraries alike PyQtGraph. Maybe you are just not willing to 
> see / accept these arguments.
>
> By the way, some months ago I started trying to migrate to Python 3 
> and gave up in favor of creating said compilation. Compatibility of 
> Python and its Packages decreased with V3 significantly. A whole lot 
> of minor and major incompatibilities between your subversions and 
> belonging packages. This was one reason, why Java took the route to 
> its own death.

*rolls eyes*

I know PyQtGraph reasonably well and this is the first time I've ever 
heard of anybody using it on Python 2. I mean, I imagine it once worked 
on Python 2 and probably still does, but all of these package have had 
perfectly good Python 3 support for many, many years.


- Thomas



From rosuav at gmail.com  Sat Mar 27 17:49:21 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 08:49:21 +1100
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 5:00 AM lucas <lucas at bourneuf.net> wrote:
> I finally took time (thanks to Florian R.) to get a reproducible example
> of my problem, as asked previously by ChrisA.

Thanks! With this in hand, I can play around with it.

> On debian, Python 3.7, i got:
>
>      127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password
> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
>
> On Arch, python 3.9, i got:
>
>       aluriak at arch? python3.9 p.py server
>      127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -

On Debian, with both versions having been built from source, the same
occurs. Furthermore, Python 3.8 behaves as 3.7 does. This definitely
changed in 3.9.

> Note that the two outputs differs in two ways:
>
>      127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password
> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
>      127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -
>
> The first contains the arguments, and the second contains the path.
> Sounds like there is something wrong with both modules.

One point of note is that the request as given actually doesn't have a
slash. I think that's technically wrong, but a lot of systems will
just implicitly add the slash. That, coupled with commit 9c4c45, is
why you're seeing "/RPC2" in there. That distinction vanishes if you
change your client thusly:

url = 'http://' + URL + '/?' + urlencode({'u': USER, 'p': PASSWD})

Actually, it looks like all the changes came in with that commit. The
old way used some internal functions from urllib.parse, and the new
way uses the public function urllib.parse.urlparse(), and there are
some subtle differences. For one thing, the old way would implicitly
readd the missing slash, thus hiding the above issue; the new way
leaves the path empty (thus triggering the "/RPC2" replacement). But
perhaps more significantly, the old way left query parameters in the
"path" portion, where the new way has a separate "query" portion that
is being lost. Here's the relevant BPO:

https://bugs.python.org/issue38038

It seems to have been intended as a pure refactor, so I'd call this a
regression. Fortunately, it's not difficult to fix; but I'm not sure
if there are any other subtle changes.

The regression's already been reported so I'm adding to this issue:

https://bugs.python.org/issue43433

Hopefully that solves the problem!

ChrisA

From lucas at bourneuf.net  Sat Mar 27 18:10:48 2021
From: lucas at bourneuf.net (lucas)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 23:10:48 +0100
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
 <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d7b879f9-01b5-1cd8-fe3e-b38e6986a771@bourneuf.net>

Thank you ChrisA !

I hope it will solve it too. Do i need to do anything ?

Thank you for your time and help.

Best wishes,
--lucas



On 27/03/2021 22:49, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 5:00 AM lucas <lucas at bourneuf.net> wrote:
>> I finally took time (thanks to Florian R.) to get a reproducible example
>> of my problem, as asked previously by ChrisA.
> 
> Thanks! With this in hand, I can play around with it.
> 
>> On debian, Python 3.7, i got:
>>
>>       127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password
>> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
>>
>> On Arch, python 3.9, i got:
>>
>>        aluriak at arch? python3.9 p.py server
>>       127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -
> 
> On Debian, with both versions having been built from source, the same
> occurs. Furthermore, Python 3.8 behaves as 3.7 does. This definitely
> changed in 3.9.
> 
>> Note that the two outputs differs in two ways:
>>
>>       127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:31:13] "POST /?u=user&p=password
>> HTTP/1.1" 404 -
>>       127.0.0.1 - - [27/Mar/2021 18:35:45] "POST /RPC2 HTTP/1.1" 200 -
>>
>> The first contains the arguments, and the second contains the path.
>> Sounds like there is something wrong with both modules.
> 
> One point of note is that the request as given actually doesn't have a
> slash. I think that's technically wrong, but a lot of systems will
> just implicitly add the slash. That, coupled with commit 9c4c45, is
> why you're seeing "/RPC2" in there. That distinction vanishes if you
> change your client thusly:
> 
> url = 'http://' + URL + '/?' + urlencode({'u': USER, 'p': PASSWD})
> 
> Actually, it looks like all the changes came in with that commit. The
> old way used some internal functions from urllib.parse, and the new
> way uses the public function urllib.parse.urlparse(), and there are
> some subtle differences. For one thing, the old way would implicitly
> readd the missing slash, thus hiding the above issue; the new way
> leaves the path empty (thus triggering the "/RPC2" replacement). But
> perhaps more significantly, the old way left query parameters in the
> "path" portion, where the new way has a separate "query" portion that
> is being lost. Here's the relevant BPO:
> 
> https://bugs.python.org/issue38038
> 
> It seems to have been intended as a pure refactor, so I'd call this a
> regression. Fortunately, it's not difficult to fix; but I'm not sure
> if there are any other subtle changes.
> 
> The regression's already been reported so I'm adding to this issue:
> 
> https://bugs.python.org/issue43433
> 
> Hopefully that solves the problem!
> 
> ChrisA
> 

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 19:42:56 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 19:42:56 -0400
Subject: Access to python37_d.lib
In-Reply-To: <CA+gGKq1KXGoCO5s70=u8DBXdfQ_Xk=p7QsUSRCe0fArvb9MqTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+gGKq1KXGoCO5s70=u8DBXdfQ_Xk=p7QsUSRCe0fArvb9MqTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s3ofu1$89q$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/27/2021 11:34 AM, Kathleen Kennedy wrote:
> When matplotlib-cpp from GitHub is used to add graphics to a Visual Studio
> C++ Console application the following error is obtained: Cannot
> open python37_d.lib.

> The error was not resolved by re-installing python, including debug files.
> Any assistance would be much appreciated.
> JIMK

For me, current python3.x installed on Windows with the PSF installer 
has <installdir>/libs/ containing 3 .lib files: 
_tkinter/python3/python3x.lib

My repository debug builds result in <clonedir>/PCbuild/win32 with lots 
of files, including python3_d.lib and python3x_d.lib.  I don't know if 
including 'debug files' includes these or not.  You can check in your 
<installdir>/lib.

Is matplotlib-cpp possibly installed with its own debug build of 
python37?  Or using some other installed python on your system?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 20:00:12 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 20:00:12 -0400
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
 <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s3ogud$2e8$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/27/2021 5:49 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

> https://bugs.python.org/issue38038
> 
> It seems to have been intended as a pure refactor, so I'd call this a
> regression. Fortunately, it's not difficult to fix; but I'm not sure
> if there are any other subtle changes.
> 
> The regression's already been reported so I'm adding to this issue:
> 
> https://bugs.python.org/issue43433

You added a PR, which is great, but useless unless a currently active 
coredev reviews and merges.  I requested such from the author and merger 
of the apparently offending commit.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From rosuav at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 05:51:43 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 20:51:43 +1100
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <d7b879f9-01b5-1cd8-fe3e-b38e6986a771@bourneuf.net>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
 <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d7b879f9-01b5-1cd8-fe3e-b38e6986a771@bourneuf.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqwW2Y+w0j8SSjYs61+sAecQqtyhTjq6MhGXM4=BTzUCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 9:12 AM lucas <lucas at bourneuf.net> wrote:
>
> Thank you ChrisA !
>
> I hope it will solve it too. Do i need to do anything ?
>
> Thank you for your time and help.
>

There are a couple of things you can do actually! First off, here's
the pull request, which will be where further comments happen:

https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/25045

Since you actually use xmlrpc, you'd be the best person to devise some
useful tests. Also, the question has been raised regarding the
fragment. I suspect that a fragment is inappropriate here, since it's
effectively an external URL, but that's for you to answer; if
fragments are to be stripped, that definitely needs to be mentioned.

ChrisA

From darcy at VybeNetworks.com  Sun Mar 28 07:47:42 2021
From: darcy at VybeNetworks.com (D'Arcy Cain)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 07:47:42 -0400
Subject: Help Please
In-Reply-To: <CA+FnnTyN0Asxqd0uOgee_eGRHWEtvY4VNM_-xcFFqb_5TEv2cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK197dytpCNQRbbZvKRKcLKJ2tyUAp+0ubUoK_0B+Ytpep5phg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CA+FnnTyN0Asxqd0uOgee_eGRHWEtvY4VNM_-xcFFqb_5TEv2cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19b30963-d9e7-f0b4-3cbc-d9fdc2fc5849@VybeNetworks.com>

On 2021-03-26 12:42 p.m., Igor Korot wrote:
> On top of that - usual stanza applies:
> 
> 1. OS - Windows, Linux, Mac?
> 2. OS version?
> 3. Python version?
> 4. Are you able to run python interpretor?
> 5. Socks version you are trying to install?
> 6. Was install successful?

7. Use a subject that describes the actual issue.

-- 
D'Arcy J.M. Cain
Vybe Networks Inc.
A unit of Excelsior Solutions Corporation - Propelling Business Forward
http://www.VybeNetworks.com/
IM:darcy at VybeNetworks.com VoIP: sip:darcy at VybeNetworks.com

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Sat Mar 27 20:09:24 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 20:09:24 -0400
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <d7b879f9-01b5-1cd8-fe3e-b38e6986a771@bourneuf.net>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
 <CAPTjJmqQx5nvKQvNqRdt_WhcJcZ9qphqHuQdXkrjHEP9L4UNXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d7b879f9-01b5-1cd8-fe3e-b38e6986a771@bourneuf.net>
Message-ID: <s3ohfl$16c8$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/27/2021 6:10 PM, lucas wrote:

> I hope it will solve it too. Do i need to do anything ?

Review the patch by trying it out on your system.  If necessary because 
you do not have a local cpython clone, backup installed 3.9 
Lib/xmlrpc.py and hand-edit. Then report OS, python used, and result. 
(If it works, you can keep the patched version ;-).

For many issues, reviews are the bottleneck for getting fixes released.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From sikdarswagato0 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 02:40:37 2021
From: sikdarswagato0 at gmail.com (ACE 012)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 12:10:37 +0530
Subject: i am getting the following error code while trying to reinstall pip
Message-ID: <CAE7V_dedW7E73Z3DpBi1R4NeGAX9rwSrFhZE__vUUDRs6EPZfw@mail.gmail.com>

ValueError: bad marshal data (digit out of range in long)

From ikorot01 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 10:30:55 2021
From: ikorot01 at gmail.com (Igor Korot)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 09:30:55 -0500
Subject: i am getting the following error code while trying to reinstall
 pip
In-Reply-To: <CAE7V_dedW7E73Z3DpBi1R4NeGAX9rwSrFhZE__vUUDRs6EPZfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE7V_dedW7E73Z3DpBi1R4NeGAX9rwSrFhZE__vUUDRs6EPZfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+FnnTxCUMDjGs7iypiRVKxynUDntLKELQzq+VGNyZEkVb-Z9A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,



On Sun, Mar 28, 2021, 9:29 AM ACE 012 <sikdarswagato0 at gmail.com> wrote:

> ValueError: bad marshal data (digit out of range in long)
>

Why do you need to re-install it?
What was wrong?

Thank you.

-- 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 11:42:29 2021
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 15:42:29 +0000
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
Message-ID: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>

I've been looking into using a code formatter as a code base size has grown as well as contributing developers. I've found and played with autopep, black, and yapf. As well as whatever pycharm has (which may just be gui preferences around one of those 3).

I have 2 questions:
1) Are there any major other formatters that I can/should look at? I see some "online" pretty printers, but I'm after something I can run on whole recursive directories of code.

2) I use more and type annotations (at least at the trivial level). But I like to have variable annotations tightly bound to the identifier, kind of like a subscript. So I want to see 

  def foo_bar(baz:int) -> bool:
    yak:str = 'howdy mates'

And NOT 

  def foo_bar(baz: int) -> bool:
    yak: str = 'howdy mates'

In other cases though (dictionaries for example), I'm fine with (and prefer) the spacing.

Is there anyway to make any of these formatters do this?

We write a lot of Swift and Kotlin as well as which uses the same general syntax (identifier:Type) for type annotation, and we'd like to have some consistency across the styles (we pack the couplets in those two).



From pbryan at anode.ca  Sun Mar 28 12:40:32 2021
From: pbryan at anode.ca (Paul Bryan)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 16:40:32 +0000
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010d017879b55c2c-89e3bd1f-5fec-42e8-988e-ddfe17d6028c-000000@ca-central-1.amazonses.com>

On Sun, 2021-03-28 at 15:42 +0000, Travis Griggs wrote:
> I've been looking into using a code formatter as a code base size has
> grown as well as contributing developers. I've found and played with
> autopep, black, and yapf. As well as whatever pycharm has (which may
> just be gui preferences around one of those 3).
> 
> I have 2 questions:
> 1) Are there any major other formatters that I can/should look at? I
> see some "online" pretty printers, but I'm after something I can run
> on whole recursive directories of code.

I assume you mean autopep8. I'm not aware of any other currently
popular formatters.?

> 2) I use more and type annotations (at least at the trivial level).
> But I like to have variable annotations tightly bound to the
> identifier, kind of like a subscript. So I want to see 
> 
> ? def foo_bar(baz:int) -> bool:
> ??? yak:str = 'howdy mates'
> 
> And NOT 
> 
> ? def foo_bar(baz: int) -> bool:
> ??? yak: str = 'howdy mates'
> 
> In other cases though (dictionaries for example), I'm fine with (and
> prefer) the spacing.
> 
> Is there anyway to make any of these formatters do this?

Formatters are typically strongly opinionated (autopep8 being an
exception), so I think you'll be going against the grain by trying to
make exceptions. I suggest accepting their opinions (pick the formatter
that most closely aligns with your taste), or, if you can make a case
for general use, suggest/request one change their opinions.

Paul


From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 14:28:53 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 12:28:53 -0600
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
 <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>
Message-ID: <21ac4e7c-766d-386d-fdd7-3ac36f96392d@gmail.com>

On 3/27/21 1:02 PM, python at blackward.eu wrote:
> You say: "The point is that there are those who use Python 2 and
> don't want to move to Python 3, claiming that it's easier to switch
> from Python 2 to some other language than from Python 2 to Python 3.
> That's what seems questionable." And I say, forcing people to do
> things they do not want to do is a little more questionable. There
> are reasons, why people "don't want to move to Python 3".
Sorry but that's not the way it works.  No one forces anyone to use
Python.  And no one forces anyone to move to Python 3.  But Python 2 is
not supported any longer, and you're on your own.  Plain and simple.
This is no different than if you chose to stay with, for example, an
obsolete version of some proprietary software package.  Lots of VB6
users out there still, but you can't seriously expect MS support or
official VB forums to be able to provided assistance do you?

You want to use an obsolete version of Python and an obsolete version of
Qt.  That's totally fine!  But why are you angry when people, who are
strictly volunteers, are unable to help much here other than to strongly
recommend you reconsider?

> Maybe you should concentrate more on developing 
> Python 3 a little more attractive then in burning witches?

And indeed Python 3 is a very attractive platform to move to!

> But for my part, this discussion is ended, it does not lead to anything. 
> At least in this point I agree with Chris.

Yes many new posters seem to come along and end up in this rut.  The
lack of emotional subtext in a mailing list doesn't help communication I
admit. I've been in your shoes before and I know how frustrating it can
be to not get the answers I want to hear, but I have to admit my own
attitude determined the outcome of some of the more frustrating
exchanges I've been a part of.

From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 14:32:21 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 12:32:21 -0600
Subject: python documentation
In-Reply-To: <21ac4e7c-766d-386d-fdd7-3ac36f96392d@gmail.com>
References: <38c506bb41f8b66a6ed0cc516981534f@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqgwNqHdBHC7a2yCizawrh2+o4y56LmBoJxA6mOxfFv+g@mail.gmail.com>
 <70b7e951fd1cabb41bd3a52bbd69e9b9@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoD=ZfpX62tOc6TsDvXHKsrTkBAmG62DSBMw=VFwqN68A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e4532edda75a25f992b3235032a5d160@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmp=d5COqKRpjEDD_fqE=RYR4i_uqra2VN9sP4TYUrBG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <721e8c242450c6d667c72cdf70be5290@blackward.eu>
 <CAPTjJmqA+0tYBHTRTn_CbnXmdBan23DiixvC9TUsjhoSqRhmeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <15a0ba756cf9b9e0163fa3e93ac88539@blackward.eu>
 <cc6f12d5-8a4d-e39c-8dbd-bf687f576582@mrabarnett.plus.com>
 <1cce44a634828b66a56f7ecc615f8dba@blackward.eu>
 <21ac4e7c-766d-386d-fdd7-3ac36f96392d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21e5a1d6-3faa-9fb5-f3ee-437d55975f15@gmail.com>

On 3/28/21 12:28 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> You want to use an obsolete version of Python and an obsolete version of
> Qt.  That's totally fine!  But why are you angry when people, who are
> strictly volunteers, are unable to help much here other than to strongly
> recommend you reconsider?

Oops. You weren't ever asking for help.  My bad.

However there was understandable push back to documenting and promoting
an obsolete distribution of Python 2 (and Qt4 no less!) to new users.
Definitely not something the documentation should be doing.

From qberz2005 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 14:33:50 2021
From: qberz2005 at gmail.com (Quentin Bock)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:33:50 -0400
Subject: firewall in python
Message-ID: <CAO9VG=gwSfheywq9aGp2UG1FbFR4zUUjpkNcFjt47aa0xwAs5w@mail.gmail.com>

Is it possible to create a firewall inside python and then run that instead
of the windows defender firewall? If so how would that work or how would
that be made?
Thanks :)

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From skip.montanaro at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 15:17:42 2021
From: skip.montanaro at gmail.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:17:42 -0500
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UzyOfMisTyK6KPh85FxGRK=iVDwAtQNuRiGtSHX18yDww@mail.gmail.com>

> 1) Are there any major other formatters that I can/should look at? I see some "online" pretty printers, but I'm after something I can run on whole recursive directories of code.

I use Emacs, so I'm kind of biased, but I find its python-mode does a
good job, good enough that I wouldn't use a batch formatter to conform
to some other conventions, then wind up having a mixed set of
conventions after my next edit. I presume vim and all IDEs worth their
salt also do a suitable job of formatting code on-the-fly.

Skip

From torriem at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 21:39:58 2021
From: torriem at gmail.com (Michael Torrie)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2021 19:39:58 -0600
Subject: firewall in python
In-Reply-To: <CAO9VG=gwSfheywq9aGp2UG1FbFR4zUUjpkNcFjt47aa0xwAs5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO9VG=gwSfheywq9aGp2UG1FbFR4zUUjpkNcFjt47aa0xwAs5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28b02d06-2da9-30a9-a7b8-08e9977cfba5@gmail.com>

On 3/28/21 12:33 PM, Quentin Bock wrote:
> Is it possible to create a firewall inside python and then run that instead
> of the windows defender firewall? If so how would that work or how would
> that be made?

Probably not.  The firewall is part of the kernel since it works
directly with the network drivers and the packets in memory (to avoid
copying data).  MS has an API for interacting with it, and controlling
and extending its behavior using an API:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/network/windows-filtering-platform-architecture-overview

This is what third-party firewall managers use.

Possibly Python could interact with portions of the firewall engine via
the callout API.

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Sun Mar 28 22:52:24 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 15:52:24 +1300
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eb6ba339-0c50-f218-481c-3bf2e4026aad@DancesWithMice.info>

On 29/03/2021 04.42, Travis Griggs wrote:
> I've been looking into using a code formatter as a code base size has grown as well as contributing developers. I've found and played with autopep, black, and yapf. As well as whatever pycharm has (which may just be gui preferences around one of those 3).
> 
> I have 2 questions:
> 1) Are there any major other formatters that I can/should look at? I see some "online" pretty printers, but I'm after something I can run on whole recursive directories of code.
> 
> 2) I use more and type annotations (at least at the trivial level). But I like to have variable annotations tightly bound to the identifier, kind of like a subscript. So I want to see 
> 
>   def foo_bar(baz:int) -> bool:
>     yak:str = 'howdy mates'
> 
> And NOT 
> 
>   def foo_bar(baz: int) -> bool:
>     yak: str = 'howdy mates'
> 
> In other cases though (dictionaries for example), I'm fine with (and prefer) the spacing.
> 
> Is there anyway to make any of these formatters do this?
> 
> We write a lot of Swift and Kotlin as well as which uses the same general syntax (identifier:Type) for type annotation, and we'd like to have some consistency across the styles (we pack the couplets in those two).


Like you, I've found the ability to add such functionality to PyCharm,
VS-Codium, SublimeText (and others) useful. Such has undoubtedly
improved code-presentation.

However, there will always be differences in what I like to see, and
anyone/everyone else. Because I'm used to working in multiple
human-language/cultures, I extend similar courtesies and 'survival
tactics' into the coding world. If we're working-together and you
prefer/demand something be done in a particular way, ...

This is one reason why I like competent editor software. Let's take the
spaces/tab debate. (No, not an invitation to start that again!) It is
solved very quickly by the use of my editor's command to convert one
into the other. QED, and any frustration/anger/objections dissipate!


Sadly PyCharm is not on this machine. However, if memory serves, I have
it set-up to run checks across the entire project at every git-commit.
Any 'failures' are then reported and can either be accepted or the
commit postponed until such time as compliance with the machine's
bidding is achieved. (this may not be exactly what Q1 requires)


In some checkers (wish I could remember which), it is possible to turn
'off' certain 'complaints'. For example

def foo_bar ( baz:int ) -> bool:

might attract criticisms for the spaces outside the parentheses AND for
those immediately-inside. I agree with the former, but turn-off the
latter warning/grumble/complaint/reminder (because the inner-spaces aid
my ageing eyes).

Sadly, this informing of questionable/erroneous-formatting is somewhat
the opposite of your asking for something to *perform* a re-format.


Additionally, Q2 may require an ability to add rules to the checker.
I've not looked at such, but comments in "Auto formatters for Python"
(https://www.kevinpeters.net/auto-formatters-for-python) use phrases
such as "The tool will also do small additional checks" and
"configurable in a lot of ways" - which may/not coincide with the Qs.


Bulk re-formatting implies risk - unless you also have 100% 'bulk' and
automated testing!


Moving from one language to another can play mind-games with us. What
makes sense in one; may be right, OK, or possibly even plain-wrong, in
another. For (obvious) example, Python is unusual in that (in some
places) horizontal-spacing is a part of the language, but quite optional
in others. Accordingly, trying to generalise horizontal-formatting is
probably creating hoops-to-jump-through. Such may have been worthy of a
stereotypical (and much vilified) 1960s civil service; but not of
someone with expertise in modern programming languages. Embrace diversity!
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From cs at cskk.id.au  Sun Mar 28 23:45:45 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 14:45:45 +1100
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YGFNaaCeXljGfYaY@cskk.homeip.net>

On 28Mar2021 15:42, Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>I've been looking into using a code formatter as a code base size has grown as well as contributing developers. I've found and played with autopep, black, and yapf. As well as whatever pycharm has (which may just be gui preferences around one of those 3).
>2) I use more and type annotations (at least at the trivial level). But 
>I like to have variable annotations tightly bound to the identifier, 
>kind of like a subscript. So I want to see
>
>  def foo_bar(baz:int) -> bool:
>    yak:str = 'howdy mates'
>
>And NOT
>
>  def foo_bar(baz: int) -> bool:
>    yak: str = 'howdy mates'
>
>In other cases though (dictionaries for example), I'm fine with (and prefer) the spacing.
>
>Is there anyway to make any of these formatters do this?

yapf has many tunings. Worth a look. It is my preferred formatter. By 
comparison, black is both opinionated and has basicly no tuning, 
something I greatly dislike.

>We write a lot of Swift and Kotlin as well as which uses the same 
>general syntax (identifier:Type) for type annotation, and we'd like to 
>have some consistency across the styles (we pack the couplets in those 
>two).

Then you probably want a more tunable formatter in each of these cases, 
raising the odds of formatting in your preferred style.

Finally, you could consider post processing formatted code if some 
specific tuning isn't what you want. (Or patch yapf to add the tuning, 
maybe.)

For example, if some formatter gets you 95% if the way there, maybe you 
can apply your type annotation special case with a simpler tool (eg, for 
me, sed) since you can have more confidence in the physical code layout 
and therefore less need to have a deep understanding of the syntax in 
the post process step.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From dieter at handshake.de  Mon Mar 29 01:57:13 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 07:57:13 +0200
Subject: XML RPC changes between 3.7 and 3.9 yield 401 http error
In-Reply-To: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
References: <71c78705-9792-78fd-a522-b0b97fd79435@bourneuf.net>
Message-ID: <24673.27705.575151.956654@ixdm.fritz.box>

lucas wrote at 2021-3-27 18:53 +0100:
>Following our previous discussion:
>     https://www.talkend.net/post/287193.html
>
>I finally took time (thanks to Florian R.) to get a reproducible example
>of my problem, as asked previously by ChrisA.

I compared `xmlrpc.client.ServerProxy.__init__`
for Python 3.6 and Python 3.9(a5):
Python 3.6 uses `splittype` and `splithost` to parse *uri*
while Python 3.9 uses `urlparse` to complete decompose *uri*
and then uses `scheme`, `netloc` and `path` from the result.
As a consequence Python 3.9 misses any information in the "query string".

In my view, Python 3.6 behaves as documented (in the `ServerProxy` "docstring")
while Python 3.9 does not. At your place, I would file a bug
report at "https://bugs.python.org/".

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Mon Mar 29 05:46:08 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 11:46:08 +0200
Subject: convert script awk in python
References: <011701d720c6$c0f73980$42e5ac80$@verizon.net>
 <YFu+Zh97bJcpP0J/@cskk.homeip.net>
 <06ab01d72105$b6c0ca00$24425e00$@verizon.net>
 <mailman.231.1616628651.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87zgyrd7s6.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <c7766781-de2b-8f33-1358-68966be20638@gmail.com>
 <mailman.244.1616805106.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87tuouz40v.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Michael Torrie <torriem at gmail.com> writes:

> On 3/25/21 1:14 AM, Loris Bennett wrote:
>> Does any one have a better approach?
>
> Not as such.  Running a command and parsing its output is a relatively
> common task. Years ago I wrote my own simple python wrapper function
> that would make it easier to run a program with arguments, and capture
> its output.  I ended up using that wrapper many times, which saved a lot
> of time.
>
> When it comes to converting a bash pipeline process to Python, it's
> worth considering that most of pipelines seem to involve parsing using
> sed or awk (as yours do), which is way easier to do from python without
> that kind of pipelining. However there is a fantastic article I read
> years ago about how generators are python's equivalent to a pipe.
> Anyone wanting to replace a bash script with python should read this:
>
> https://www.dabeaz.com/generators/Generators.pdf

Thanks for the link - very instructive.

> Also there's an interesting shell scripting language based on Python
> called xonsh which makes it much easier to interact with processes like
> bash does, but still leveraging Python to process the output.
> https://xon.sh/ .

That looks very interesting, too.

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 06:12:36 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 03:12:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
Message-ID: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>

Hello everyone!
I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption.

I have a class which is doing ETL job. What`s happening inside:
 - fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy
 - iterate over raw data
 - create new/update existing objects
 - commit changes

Before processing data I create internal cache(dictionary) and store all existing objects in it.
Every 10000 items I do bulk insert and flush. At the end I run commit command.

Problem. Before executing, my interpreter process weighs ~100Mb, after first run memory increases up to 500Mb
and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.

What I tried after executing:
 - gc.collect()
 - created snapshots with tracemalloc and searched for some garbage, diff = 
   smapshot_before_run - smapshot_after_run
 - searched for links with "objgraph" library to internal cache(dictionary 
   containing elements from DB)
 - cleared the cache(dictionary)
 - db.session.expire_all()

This class is a periodic celery task. So when each worker executes this class at least two times,
all celery workers need 1Gb of RAM. Before celery there was a cron script and this class was executed via API call
and the problem was the same. So no matter how I run, interpreter consumes 1Gb of RAM after two runs.

I see few solutions to this problem
1. Execute this class in separate process. But I had few errors when the same SQLAlchemy connection being shared
between different processes.
2. Restart celery worker after executing this task by throwing exception.
3. Use separate queue for such tasks, but then worker will stay idle most of the time.
All this is looks like a crutch. Do I have any other options ?

I'm using:
Python - 3.6.13
Celery - 4.1.0
Flask-RESTful - 0.3.6
Flask-SQLAlchemy - 2.3.2

Thanks in advance!

From m at funkyhat.org  Mon Mar 29 06:15:07 2021
From: m at funkyhat.org (Matt Wheeler)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 11:15:07 +0100
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <YGFNaaCeXljGfYaY@cskk.homeip.net>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
 <YGFNaaCeXljGfYaY@cskk.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <D876D5CF-177C-4222-B076-CEC00C262AD8@funkyhat.org>



> On 29 Mar 2021, at 04:45, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
> 
> yapf has many tunings. Worth a look. It is my preferred formatter. By 
> comparison, black is both opinionated and has basicly no tuning, 
> something I greatly dislike.

This is not a mark or a vote against yapf (I?ve never used it), but I think Black?s lack of tuning is one of its greatest strengths.
I?ve found in 2 teams in 2 very different companies, implementing `black ?check` in CI made the code review process significantly more pleasant for both reviewers and review-ees.

I don?t know for sure, but I think the opinionated nature of Black was what enabled us to actually get the implementation off the ground (in company 1 several other attempts to get a code formatter running across the board had failed over the years). We completely sidestepped any discussion about which features of $tool were going to be enabled or not.

Black has a couple of minor opinions that I disagree with, but the net benefit of having everyone producing code in the same style (and importantly no-one having to *think* about the style while coding) vastly outweighs any annoyance I might have with those minor points, to the extent that I can?t actually remember what those disagreements are.

From liedtke at punkt.de  Mon Mar 29 07:45:05 2021
From: liedtke at punkt.de (Lars Liedtke)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 13:45:05 +0200
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>

Hello Alexej,

May I stupidly ask, why you care about that in general? Please don't get
me wrong I don't want to criticize you, this is rather meant to be a
(thought) provoking question.
Normally your OS-Kernel and the Python-Interpreter get along pretty well
and whenthere is free memory to be had, or not the necessity to release
allocated memory then why force this? Python will release memory when
needed by running the gc.

Have you tried running your task over all the data you have? Did it
crash your system or prevent other processes from having enough memory?
If not: why care?

I know that there can be (good) reasons to care, but as long as your
tasks run fine, without clogging your system, in my opinion there might
be nothing to worry about.

Cheers

Lars

Am 29.03.21 um 12:12 schrieb Alexey:
> Hello everyone!
> I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption.
>
> I have a class which is doing ETL job. What`s happening inside:
>  - fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy
>  - iterate over raw data
>  - create new/update existing objects
>  - commit changes
>
> Before processing data I create internal cache(dictionary) and store all existing objects in it.
> Every 10000 items I do bulk insert and flush. At the end I run commit command.
>
> Problem. Before executing, my interpreter process weighs ~100Mb, after first run memory increases up to 500Mb
> and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
> it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.
>
> What I tried after executing:
>  - gc.collect()
>  - created snapshots with tracemalloc and searched for some garbage, diff = 
>    smapshot_before_run - smapshot_after_run
>  - searched for links with "objgraph" library to internal cache(dictionary 
>    containing elements from DB)
>  - cleared the cache(dictionary)
>  - db.session.expire_all()
>
> This class is a periodic celery task. So when each worker executes this class at least two times,
> all celery workers need 1Gb of RAM. Before celery there was a cron script and this class was executed via API call
> and the problem was the same. So no matter how I run, interpreter consumes 1Gb of RAM after two runs.
>
> I see few solutions to this problem
> 1. Execute this class in separate process. But I had few errors when the same SQLAlchemy connection being shared
> between different processes.
> 2. Restart celery worker after executing this task by throwing exception.
> 3. Use separate queue for such tasks, but then worker will stay idle most of the time.
> All this is looks like a crutch. Do I have any other options ?
>
> I'm using:
> Python - 3.6.13
> Celery - 4.1.0
> Flask-RESTful - 0.3.6
> Flask-SQLAlchemy - 2.3.2
>
> Thanks in advance!

-- 
---
punkt.de GmbH
Lars Liedtke
.infrastructure

Kaiserallee 13a	
76133 Karlsruhe

Tel. +49 721 9109 500
https://infrastructure.punkt.de
info at punkt.de

AG Mannheim 108285
Gesch?ftsf?hrer: J?rgen Egeling, Daniel Lienert, Fabian Stein


From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 08:27:20 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 05:27:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>

Hello Lars!
Thanks for your interest.

The problem appears when all celery workers
require 1Gb of RAM each in idle state. They
hold this memory constantly and when they do
something useful, they grab more memory. I
think 8Gb+ in idle state is quite a lot for my
app.

> Did it crash your system or prevent other 
processes from having enough memory?
yes. More over, sometimes corporate watchdog
just kills my app

From thinmanj at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 08:57:13 2021
From: thinmanj at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Julio_O=C3=B1a?=)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:57:13 -0400
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>

It looks like the problem is on celery.
The mentioned issue is still open, so not sure if it was corrected.

https://manhtai.github.io/posts/memory-leak-in-celery/

Julio


El lun, 29 de mar. de 2021 a la(s) 08:31, Alexey (zen.supagood at gmail.com)
escribi?:

> Hello Lars!
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> The problem appears when all celery workers
> require 1Gb of RAM each in idle state. They
> hold this memory constantly and when they do
> something useful, they grab more memory. I
> think 8Gb+ in idle state is quite a lot for my
> app.
>
> > Did it crash your system or prevent other
> processes from having enough memory?
> yes. More over, sometimes corporate watchdog
> just kills my app
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 09:26:14 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 06:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>

???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 15:57:43 UTC+3, Julio O?a:
> It looks like the problem is on celery. 
> The mentioned issue is still open, so not sure if it was corrected. 
> 
> https://manhtai.github.io/posts/memory-leak-in-celery/ 

As I mentioned in my first message, I tried to run
this task(class) via Flask API calls, without Celery. 
And results are the same. Flask worker receives the API call and
executes MyClass().run() inside of view. After a few calls 
worker size increases to 1Gb of RAM. In production I have 8 workers,
 so in idle they will hold 8Gb.

From stestagg at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 10:18:33 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 15:18:33 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 2:32 PM Alexey <zen.supagood at gmail.com> wrote:

> ???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 15:57:43 UTC+3, Julio O?a:
> > It looks like the problem is on celery.
> > The mentioned issue is still open, so not sure if it was corrected.
> >
> > https://manhtai.github.io/posts/memory-leak-in-celery/
>
> As I mentioned in my first message, I tried to run
> this task(class) via Flask API calls, without Celery.
> And results are the same. Flask worker receives the API call and
> executes MyClass().run() inside of view. After a few calls
> worker size increases to 1Gb of RAM. In production I have 8 workers,
>  so in idle they will hold 8Gb.
>


Memory statistics in modern OSs are incredibly complex to reason about.
It's /possible/ that, while it certainly looks bad in the monitoring tools,
there actually isn't a problem here.

Some questions here to help understand more:

1. Do you have any actual problems caused by running 8 celery workers
(beyond high memory reports)? What are they?
2. Can you try a test with 16 or 32 active workers (i.e. number of
workers=2x available memory in GB), do they all still end up with 1gb
usage? or do you get any other memory-related issues running this?

Thanks

Steve



> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 11:06:56 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:06:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>

???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 17:19:02 UTC+3, Stestagg:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 2:32 PM Alexey <zen.su... at gmail.com> wrote: 

> Some questions here to help understand more: 
>
> 1. Do you have any actual problems caused by running 8 celery workers 
> (beyond high memory reports)? What are they? 
No. Everything works fine.

> 2. Can you try a test with 16 or 32 active workers (i.e. number of 
> workers=2x available memory in GB), do they all still end up with 1gb 
> usage? or do you get any other memory-related issues running this? 
Yes. They will consume 1Gb each. It doesn't matter how many workers I have, 
they behave exactly the same. We can even forget about Flask and Celery. 
If I run this code in Python console, behavior will remain the same.


From dieter at handshake.de  Mon Mar 29 12:36:44 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 18:36:44 +0200
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>

Alexey wrote at 2021-3-29 06:26 -0700:
>???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 15:57:43 UTC+3, Julio O?a:
>> It looks like the problem is on celery.
>> The mentioned issue is still open, so not sure if it was corrected.
>>
>> https://manhtai.github.io/posts/memory-leak-in-celery/
>
>As I mentioned in my first message, I tried to run
>this task(class) via Flask API calls, without Celery.
>And results are the same. Flask worker receives the API call and
>executes MyClass().run() inside of view. After a few calls
>worker size increases to 1Gb of RAM. In production I have 8 workers,
> so in idle they will hold 8Gb.

Depending on your system (this works for `glibc` systems),
you can instruct the memory management via the envvar
`MALLOC_ARENA_MAX` to use a common memory pool (called "arena")
for all threads.
It is known that this can drastically reduce memory consumption
in multi thread systems.

From stestagg at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 12:56:24 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 17:56:24 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>

> > 2. Can you try a test with 16 or 32 active workers (i.e. number of
> > workers=2x available memory in GB), do they all still end up with 1gb
> > usage? or do you get any other memory-related issues running this?
> Yes. They will consume 1Gb each. It doesn't matter how many workers I
> have,
> they behave exactly the same. We can even forget about Flask and Celery.
> If I run this code in Python console, behavior will remain the same.
>
>
Woah, funky, so you got to a situation where your workers were allocating
2x more ram than your system had available?  and they were still working?
Were you hitting lots of swap?

If no big swap load, then it looks like no problem, it's just that the
metrics you're looking at aren't saying what they appear to be.



> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Mon Mar 29 16:18:14 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:18:14 +1300
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <D876D5CF-177C-4222-B076-CEC00C262AD8@funkyhat.org>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
 <YGFNaaCeXljGfYaY@cskk.homeip.net>
 <D876D5CF-177C-4222-B076-CEC00C262AD8@funkyhat.org>
Message-ID: <957278c1-56cd-b6ea-cd24-516062c35f6f@DancesWithMice.info>

On 29/03/2021 23.15, Matt Wheeler wrote:
>> On 29 Mar 2021, at 04:45, Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au> wrote:
>>
>> yapf has many tunings. Worth a look. It is my preferred formatter. By 
>> comparison, black is both opinionated and has basicly no tuning, 
>> something I greatly dislike.
> 
> This is not a mark or a vote against yapf (I?ve never used it), but I think Black?s lack of tuning is one of its greatest strengths.
> I?ve found in 2 teams in 2 very different companies, implementing `black ?check` in CI made the code review process significantly more pleasant for both reviewers and review-ees.
> 
> I don?t know for sure, but I think the opinionated nature of Black was what enabled us to actually get the implementation off the ground (in company 1 several other attempts to get a code formatter running across the board had failed over the years). We completely sidestepped any discussion about which features of $tool were going to be enabled or not.
> 
> Black has a couple of minor opinions that I disagree with, but the net benefit of having everyone producing code in the same style (and importantly no-one having to *think* about the style while coding) vastly outweighs any annoyance I might have with those minor points, to the extent that I can?t actually remember what those disagreements are.


+1 (although not for Black - sorry)

Very good point: I'd much rather you spent time helping me with a
design/coding problem, helping debug, and/or reviewing/improving my code
(and I for you); than we had not time left-over after spending many
hours and much mental energy arguing about whether this format is [more]
right than that!
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:06:40 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:06:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>

???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 19:37:03 UTC+3, Dieter Maurer:
> Alexey wrote at 2021-3-29 06:26 -0700: 
> >???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 15:57:43 UTC+3, Julio O?a: 
> >> It looks like the problem is on celery. 
> >> The mentioned issue is still open, so not sure if it was corrected. 
> >> 
> >> https://manhtai.github.io/posts/memory-leak-in-celery/ 
> > 
> >As I mentioned in my first message, I tried to run 
> >this task(class) via Flask API calls, without Celery. 
> >And results are the same. Flask worker receives the API call and 
> >executes MyClass().run() inside of view. After a few calls 
> >worker size increases to 1Gb of RAM. In production I have 8 workers, 
> > so in idle they will hold 8Gb.
> Depending on your system (this works for `glibc` systems), 
> you can instruct the memory management via the envvar 
> `MALLOC_ARENA_MAX` to use a common memory pool (called "arena") 
> for all threads. 
> It is known that this can drastically reduce memory consumption 
> in multi thread systems.

Tried with this variable. No luck. Thanks anyway.

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:23:15 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 01:23:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>

???????????, 29 ????? 2021 ?. ? 19:56:52 UTC+3, Stestagg:
> > > 2. Can you try a test with 16 or 32 active workers (i.e. number of 
> > > workers=2x available memory in GB), do they all still end up with 1gb 
> > > usage? or do you get any other memory-related issues running this? 
> > Yes. They will consume 1Gb each. It doesn't matter how many workers I 
> > have, 
> > they behave exactly the same. We can even forget about Flask and Celery. 
> > If I run this code in Python console, behavior will remain the same. 
> > 
> >
> Woah, funky, so you got to a situation where your workers were allocating 
> 2x more ram than your system had available? and they were still working? 
> Were you hitting lots of swap? 
> 
> If no big swap load, then it looks like no problem, it's just that the 
> metrics you're looking at aren't saying what they appear to be. 
> 
> 
> 
> > -- 
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list 
> >

I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question right. If I have 4 workers, they require 4Gb
in idle state and some extra memory when they execute other tasks. If I increase workers
count up to 16, they`ll eat all the memory I have (16GB) on my machine and will crash as soon
as system get swapped.

From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:35:35 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:35:35 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8YOte+cB3pLHzmsFJM20pr=pLeP4D7PDGPGH4s37LARGg@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question right. If I have 4 workers,
> they require 4Gb
> in idle state and some extra memory when they execute other tasks. If I
> increase workers
> count up to 16, they`ll eat all the memory I have (16GB) on my machine and
> will crash as soon
> as system get swapped.
> --
>

It was my fault sorry, bad communication at my end.

I was just trying to check to see that you had actually tested that running
16 does actually crash in your environment.

Steve



> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Tue Mar 30 07:36:44 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:36:44 +0200
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
Message-ID: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Hi,

If I have dict of dicts, say

  dod = {
      "alice":
      {
          "lang": "python",
          "level": "expert"
      },
      "bob":
      {
          "lang": "perl",
          "level": "noob"
      }
  }

is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g

  lod = [
      {
          "name": "alice",
          "lang": "python",
          "level": "expert"
      },
      {
          "name": "bob",
          "lang": "perl",
          "level": "noob"
      }
  ]

than just

  lod = []
  for name in dod:
      d = dod[name]
      d["name"] = name
      lod.append(d)

?

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 07:48:22 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:48:22 +0100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8bXZnK1Xu4k2JofegXbM9Kpew5S1MjGAEwbCfCHoCyY8A@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not certain this is the clearest possible code pattern to use, but
depending on the structure of your larger code, it's possible to do this,
and the compactness may help with understandability (that's a judgement
call!):

[dict(d, name=n) for n, d in dod.items()]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 12:42 PM Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> If I have dict of dicts, say
>
>   dod = {
>       "alice":
>       {
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       "bob":
>       {
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   }
>
> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
>
>   lod = [
>       {
>           "name": "alice",
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       {
>           "name": "bob",
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   ]
>
> than just
>
>   lod = []
>   for name in dod:
>       d = dod[name]
>       d["name"] = name
>       lod.append(d)
>
> ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Loris
>
> --
> This signature is currently under construction.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 07:50:02 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 22:50:02 +1100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 10:41 PM Loris Bennett
<loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> If I have dict of dicts, say
>
>   dod = {
>       "alice":
>       {
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       "bob":
>       {
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   }
>
> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
>
>   lod = [
>       {
>           "name": "alice",
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       {
>           "name": "bob",
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   ]
>
> than just
>
>   lod = []
>   for name in dod:
>       d = dod[name]
>       d["name"] = name
>       lod.append(d)
>
> ?
>

I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:

lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]

You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
name show up first in the dictionary.

ChrisA

From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Tue Mar 30 07:53:37 2021
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:53:37 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <slrns664a1.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

On 2021-03-30, Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
> If I have dict of dicts, say
>
>   dod = {
>       "alice":
>       {
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       "bob":
>       {
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   }
>
> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
>
>   lod = [
>       {
>           "name": "alice",
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       {
>           "name": "bob",
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
>   ]
>
> than just
>
>   lod = []
>   for name in dod:
>       d = dod[name]
>       d["name"] = name
>       lod.append(d)
>
> ?

There can't be a "canonical" way to perform the arbitrary data
conversion you want, because it's arbitrary. Personally I would
do this:

  [dict(data, name=name) for name, data in dod.items()]

but it's of course arguable whether this is "more Pythonic" or
indeed "better".

From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Tue Mar 30 07:56:38 2021
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:56:38 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:
>
> lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]
>
> You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
> name show up first in the dictionary.

It's probably worth noting this method requires Python 3.9.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 08:03:35 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 23:03:35 +1100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:01 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:
> >
> > lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]
> >
> > You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
> > name show up first in the dictionary.
>
> It's probably worth noting this method requires Python 3.9.

True, and if you need 3.8 support, then the dict constructor with one
kwarg is the way to do it. But this way has the flexibility that you
can choose which way to resolve conflicts (if there's a name inside
the info dict, should it override the key, or not?).

ChrisA

From stestagg at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 08:11:02 2021
From: stestagg at gmail.com (Stestagg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:11:02 +0100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACFDE8Z7eLq43DLeB8qUXormzeHUssLwTcxV+m=vFNUfayt=jQ@mail.gmail.com>

For completeness, from 3.5 onwards, you can also do the following:

[{'name': n, **d} for n, d in dod.items()]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:06 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:01 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:
> > >
> > > lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]
> > >
> > > You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
> > > name show up first in the dictionary.
> >
> > It's probably worth noting this method requires Python 3.9.
>
> True, and if you need 3.8 support, then the dict constructor with one
> kwarg is the way to do it. But this way has the flexibility that you
> can choose which way to resolve conflicts (if there's a name inside
> the info dict, should it override the key, or not?).
>
> ChrisA
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

From jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu  Tue Mar 30 08:15:34 2021
From: jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu (Jon Ribbens)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:15:34 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.303.1617105829.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <slrns665j6.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>

On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:01 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
><python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:
>> >
>> > lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]
>> >
>> > You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
>> > name show up first in the dictionary.
>>
>> It's probably worth noting this method requires Python 3.9.
>
> True, and if you need 3.8 support, then the dict constructor with one
> kwarg is the way to do it. But this way has the flexibility that you
> can choose which way to resolve conflicts (if there's a name inside
> the info dict, should it override the key, or not?).

Python 3 point, er, 8, yeah, that's the only other version people might
be using...

<glances at Ubuntu 14.04 servers, not yet end-of-life, with Python 3.4>

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 08:22:56 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 23:22:56 +1100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <slrns665j6.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.303.1617105829.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns665j6.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmr25W+i3LhfFapszKSPwFDptuhdgdHG1qqQmB1jx71rGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:21 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 11:01 PM Jon Ribbens via Python-list
> ><python-list at python.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2021-03-30, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I dunno about "canonical", but here's how I'd do it:
> >> >
> >> > lod = [info | {"name": name} for name, info in dod.items()]
> >> >
> >> > You could use {"name":name}|info instead if you prefer to have the
> >> > name show up first in the dictionary.
> >>
> >> It's probably worth noting this method requires Python 3.9.
> >
> > True, and if you need 3.8 support, then the dict constructor with one
> > kwarg is the way to do it. But this way has the flexibility that you
> > can choose which way to resolve conflicts (if there's a name inside
> > the info dict, should it override the key, or not?).
>
> Python 3 point, er, 8, yeah, that's the only other version people might
> be using...
>
> <glances at Ubuntu 14.04 servers, not yet end-of-life, with Python 3.4>

Heh. I meant "3.8 or earlier" but abbreviated it a bit too much :D

<types "python" and hits tab twice... 2.7 and everything from 3.4 to 3.10>

ChrisA

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Tue Mar 30 08:22:23 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:22:23 +0200
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns664a1.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
Message-ID: <87wnto6dc0.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> writes:

> On 2021-03-30, Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> If I have dict of dicts, say
>>
>>   dod = {
>>       "alice":
>>       {
>>           "lang": "python",
>>           "level": "expert"
>>       },
>>       "bob":
>>       {
>>           "lang": "perl",
>>           "level": "noob"
>>       }
>>   }
>>
>> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
>> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
>>
>>   lod = [
>>       {
>>           "name": "alice",
>>           "lang": "python",
>>           "level": "expert"
>>       },
>>       {
>>           "name": "bob",
>>           "lang": "perl",
>>           "level": "noob"
>>       }
>>   ]
>>
>> than just
>>
>>   lod = []
>>   for name in dod:
>>       d = dod[name]
>>       d["name"] = name
>>       lod.append(d)
>>
>> ?
>
> There can't be a "canonical" way to perform the arbitrary data
> conversion you want, because it's arbitrary. Personally I would
> do this:
>
>   [dict(data, name=name) for name, data in dod.items()]
>
> but it's of course arguable whether this is "more Pythonic" or
> indeed "better".

As I am stuck with Python 3.6 I'll go with this.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "arbitrary".  I meant "canonical" in
the sense of "standard" or "established", which it seems to me could
apply to a fairly generic conversion such as DoD -> LoD as described
above.

Thanks to you and the other for the help.

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From travisgriggs at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 10:54:30 2021
From: travisgriggs at gmail.com (Travis Griggs)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:54:30 +0000
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <CACFDE8Z7eLq43DLeB8qUXormzeHUssLwTcxV+m=vFNUfayt=jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Z7eLq43DLeB8qUXormzeHUssLwTcxV+m=vFNUfayt=jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <72656607-4609-4849-8C6D-0B0ECE3CE65D@gmail.com>


> On Mar 30, 2021, at 12:11, Stestagg <stestagg at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> For completeness, from 3.5 onwards, you can also do the following:
> 
> [{'name': n, **d} for n, d in dod.items()]
> 

Reading through these, personally I like this one best. I'm curious what about it was enabled in 3.5? Was **kwarg expansion inside a dict literal not possible before then? Anyway, I like that it uses simple elemental parts that have been around a long long time in Python.


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 11:25:18 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 02:25:18 +1100
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <72656607-4609-4849-8C6D-0B0ECE3CE65D@gmail.com>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Z7eLq43DLeB8qUXormzeHUssLwTcxV+m=vFNUfayt=jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <72656607-4609-4849-8C6D-0B0ECE3CE65D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmoQ68cmx-7d+xAAvQDhNUaeS=B=fpegcumdsWTdhL4f_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 1:56 AM Travis Griggs <travisgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 2021, at 12:11, Stestagg <stestagg at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > For completeness, from 3.5 onwards, you can also do the following:
> >
> > [{'name': n, **d} for n, d in dod.items()]
> >
>
> Reading through these, personally I like this one best. I'm curious what about it was enabled in 3.5? Was **kwarg expansion inside a dict literal not possible before then? Anyway, I like that it uses simple elemental parts that have been around a long long time in Python.
>

Indeed:

https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0448/

Some other relevant enhancements include dictionaries becoming ordered
(3.7), and gaining the ability to be merged with the | (bitwise-or)
operator (3.9). I'd generally recommend targeting 3.7 if possible,
although often things won't be horribly broken without dict ordering.
There aren't many platforms still around that have anything 3.3 or
older, and only a few that ship 3.4, so it's not too hard to demand
3.5+, but if 3.4 support matters, the only option is the dict
constructor.

Be aware, btw, that none of these options is quite the same as the
original code posted. They all construct a *new* dictionary that has
all the same contents, plus the name; the original would mutate the
*existing* dictionary, so if you look at the original lod, it would
now have names all through it. (On the other hand, this means
incurring the cost of constructing a new dict, although that shouldn't
be too expensive.)

ChrisA

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Mon Mar 29 21:57:17 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:57:17 -0400
Subject: Code Formatter Questions
In-Reply-To: <957278c1-56cd-b6ea-cd24-516062c35f6f@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <18916A83-65F0-4CDF-B6A4-821E8D603B33@gmail.com>
 <YGFNaaCeXljGfYaY@cskk.homeip.net>
 <D876D5CF-177C-4222-B076-CEC00C262AD8@funkyhat.org>
 <957278c1-56cd-b6ea-cd24-516062c35f6f@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <s3u0hu$l02$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/29/2021 4:18 PM, dn via Python-list wrote:

> Very good point: I'd much rather you spent time helping me with a
> design/coding problem, helping debug, and/or reviewing/improving my code
> (and I for you); than we had not time left-over after spending many
> hours and much mental energy arguing about whether this format is [more]
> right than that!

I am currently the main IDLE maintainer and spend essentially no time 
arguing over format.  If a contribution is within the bounderies of PEP 
8, that is good enough for me.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From maroloccio at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 04:18:01 2021
From: maroloccio at gmail.com (Marco Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 05:18:01 -0300
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <YGLeuZERmIO7UMuT@mail.imaginingit.com>

Have you tried to identify where in your code the surprising memory allocations
are made?

You could "bisect search" by adding breakpoints:

https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#breakpoint

At which point does the problem start manifesting itself?

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 04:44:36 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:44:36 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <s3uodl$16em$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 29/03/2021 11:12, Alexey wrote:
> Hello everyone!
> I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption.
> 

The first thing you really need to tell us is which
OS you are using? Memory management varies wildly
depending on OS. Even different flavours of *nix
do it differently.

However, most do it effectively, so you as a programmer
shouldn't have to worry too much provided you aren't
leaking, which you don't think you are.

> and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue 
> to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
> it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release 
> allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.

A 1GB process on modern computers is hardly a big problem?
Most machines have 4G and many have 16G or even 32G
nowadays.


-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 07:12:19 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:12:19 +0100
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
Message-ID: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>

I've just published, in Kindle and paperback formats,
my book on "Programming curses with Python".

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B091B85B77/

(It should be available in most other Amazon stores too)

It is a complete rewrite of the Linux Documentation
Project's HowTo for the C ncurses library. It has the
same structure but all-new text and several new
chapters. All specific to the Python curses package.

I've kept the prices as low as Amazon permits (and
allowing for fluctuations in their costs). As such,
I will therefore make a few cents profit per book
from sales (full disclosure). However, I felt this
was the easiest and most effective way to get it
"out there" where it could be found.

I hope it's useful to somebody.

Special thanks to all who provided me with feedback
on its various iterations, especially Alex Kleider
and Bob Stepp who stuck with it right to the end.
Thanks guys.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From maroloccio at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 11:27:21 2021
From: maroloccio at gmail.com (Marco Ippolito)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:27:21 -0300
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <72656607-4609-4849-8C6D-0B0ECE3CE65D@gmail.com>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmpAsoP=bMLtzVfMTq_ZnLf3SvmYZc5JtmHWM=G8c9M-nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.302.1617105015.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <slrns664fm.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <CAPTjJmoka-fKY5JVsABqjJAk-kF8=XWL3CyYRr1eDXQA2Zoekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACFDE8Z7eLq43DLeB8qUXormzeHUssLwTcxV+m=vFNUfayt=jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <72656607-4609-4849-8C6D-0B0ECE3CE65D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <YGNDWVpC7m762118@mail.imaginingit.com>

> > For completeness, from 3.5 onwards, you can also do the following:
> > [{'name': n, **d} for n, d in dod.items()]
> Reading through these, personally I like this one best. I'm curious what
> about it was enabled in 3.5? Was **kwarg expansion inside a dict literal not
> possible before then? Anyway, I like that it uses simple elemental parts that
> have been around a long long time in Python.

You can check the release notes of previous Python versions:

https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.5.html

specifically:

PEP 448 - Additional Unpacking Generalizations
https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.5.html#whatsnew-pep-448

or, if you have multiple local installations of Python (or Docker or similar
technologies), test running the same code snippet with different Python
versions.

Example with Python 3.9:

```
$ docker run --rm --tty --interactive python:3.9 \
    python -c 'import sys; d1 = > dict(x=1); d2 = {"y": 2, **d1}; print(sys.version_info, d2)'
sys.version_info(major=3, minor=9, micro=2, releaselevel='final', serial=0) {'y': 2, 'x': 1}
```

Example with Python 3.4:

```
$ docker run --rm --tty --interactive python:3.4 \
    python -c 'import sys; d1 = > dict(x=1); d2 = {"y": 2, **d1}; print(sys.version_info, d2)'
...
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
```

From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 11:50:06 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 02:50:06 +1100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <s3uodl$16em$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <s3uodl$16em$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpik63cGCvSCiZ0N44wFSi-Cs3xjLZurA+t5i26ngi-6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 2:44 AM Alan Gauld via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 29/03/2021 11:12, Alexey wrote:
> > Hello everyone!
> > I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption.
> >
>
> The first thing you really need to tell us is which
> OS you are using? Memory management varies wildly
> depending on OS. Even different flavours of *nix
> do it differently.
>
> However, most do it effectively, so you as a programmer
> shouldn't have to worry too much provided you aren't
> leaking, which you don't think you are.
>
> > and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue
> > to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
> > it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release
> > allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.
>
> A 1GB process on modern computers is hardly a big problem?
> Most machines have 4G and many have 16G or even 32G
> nowadays.
>

Desktop systems maybe, but if you rent yourself a worker box, it might
not have anything like that much. Especially if you need to have
multiple of them.

ChrisA

From avigross at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 12:19:51 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 12:19:51 -0400
Subject: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>

Congratulations, Alan, on the book.

I continue to wonder if people will buy the book for the wrong reason or ban
it thinking you created an AI snake that creates and spews new CURSES never
heard before.

The good news is that for those interested you can click on the book image
and see the preview of the  beginning parts and see it is about programming,
hold the curses.


-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On
Behalf Of Alan Gauld via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 7:12 AM
To: python-list at python.org
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book

I've just published, in Kindle and paperback formats, my book on
"Programming curses with Python".

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B091B85B77/

(It should be available in most other Amazon stores too)

It is a complete rewrite of the Linux Documentation Project's HowTo for the
C ncurses library. It has the same structure but all-new text and several
new chapters. All specific to the Python curses package.

I've kept the prices as low as Amazon permits (and allowing for fluctuations
in their costs). As such, I will therefore make a few cents profit per book
from sales (full disclosure). However, I felt this was the easiest and most
effective way to get it "out there" where it could be found.

I hope it's useful to somebody.

Special thanks to all who provided me with feedback on its various
iterations, especially Alex Kleider and Bob Stepp who stuck with it right to
the end.
Thanks guys.

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos


-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From rosuav at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 12:35:20 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 03:35:20 +1100
Subject: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmpdPbhw_jdzZ3WOx98UgLpfoXJm5Y41Xk7sVvNejjpfxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:21 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> Congratulations, Alan, on the book.
>
> I continue to wonder if people will buy the book for the wrong reason or ban
> it thinking you created an AI snake that creates and spews new CURSES never
> heard before.

A reasonable misunderstanding. After all, profanity is the one
language that every computer programmer understands, regardless of
culture, tools, era, or anything else.

ChrisA

From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 12:14:01 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 16:14:01 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-30, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> I've just published, in Kindle and paperback formats,
> my book on "Programming curses with Python".
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B091B85B77/
>
> (It should be available in most other Amazon stores too)

Cool.

Is the kindle format readable via a web browser pointed at
read.amazon.com (AKA "Kindle Cloud Reader)?

The last kindle format programming book I bought[1] wasn't (which
wasn't made clear in the item description). It had to be read on an
actual kindle device or app (which made it virtually useless to me).

[1] Linux Driver Development for Embedded Processors - Second Edition

--
Grant


From wrw at icloud.com  Tue Mar 30 14:05:49 2021
From: wrw at icloud.com (William Ray Wing)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:05:49 -0400
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <1A4D63D5-871B-44A9-BED6-6778894462EF@icloud.com>

I?ve ordered the book (physical volume). It will fulfill a need I?ve had for some time.  Unfortunately, it is only available in the UK store, so the shipping cost by far outweighs the book?s cost.  Hope for other?s sake, it migrates to the other Amazon stores fairly quickly.

Thanks,
Bill

> On Mar 30, 2021, at 7:12 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> I've just published, in Kindle and paperback formats,
> my book on "Programming curses with Python".
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B091B85B77/
> 
> (It should be available in most other Amazon stores too)


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:18:01 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 18:18:01 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <1A4D63D5-871B-44A9-BED6-6778894462EF@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <s3vq0p$3gt$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-30, William Ray Wing via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:

> I?ve ordered the book (physical volume). It will fulfill a need I?ve
> had for some time.  Unfortunately, it is only available in the UK
> store, so the shipping cost by far outweighs the book?s cost.  Hope
> for other?s sake, it migrates to the other Amazon stores fairly
> quickly.

It's available in the US:

  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B091B85B77/

  $1.49 kindle
  $5.99 paperback

--
Grant


From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 14:23:51 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 19:23:51 +0100
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s3vqbo$15h6$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 30/03/2021 17:14, Grant Edwards wrote:

> Is the kindle format readable via a web browser pointed at
> read.amazon.com (AKA "Kindle Cloud Reader)?

It seems to be, I downloaded the free sample and could
read the first 2 chapters on the web reader.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From avigross at verizon.net  Tue Mar 30 14:49:10 2021
From: avigross at verizon.net (Avi Gross)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 14:49:10 -0400
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <1A4D63D5-871B-44A9-BED6-6778894462EF@icloud.com>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <1A4D63D5-871B-44A9-BED6-6778894462EF@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <03b301d72595$5f1697f0$1d43c7d0$@verizon.net>

Bill,

I went afterward to the US Amazon Site and the prices are in dollars and ordered the paperback for $5.99, no shipping cost with PRIME but I ordered, paradoxically, an assortment of mice alongside so it would have been free anyway. The Kindle version is $1.49

https://www.amazon.com/Programming-curses-Python-Alan-Gauld-ebook/dp/B091B85B77/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=alan+gauld&qid=1617129871&sr=8-2

The paperback has a different "cover" that says "Welcome to curses!" which sounds ominous. I might have chosen to call it a "Course on curses and cures" ...

So depending on what country you are interested in, it may well be there but you need to not use the supplied URL and go there directly.

-----Original Message-----
From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avigross=verizon.net at python.org> On Behalf Of William Ray Wing via Python-list
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2021 2:06 PM
To: Python <python-list at python.org>
Cc: William Ray Wing <wrw at icloud.com>; Python <python-list at python.org>
Subject: Re: Ann: New Python curses book

I?ve ordered the book (physical volume). It will fulfill a need I?ve had for some time.  Unfortunately, it is only available in the UK store, so the shipping cost by far outweighs the book?s cost.  Hope for other?s sake, it migrates to the other Amazon stores fairly quickly.

Thanks,
Bill

> On Mar 30, 2021, at 7:12 AM, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> 
> I've just published, in Kindle and paperback formats, my book on 
> "Programming curses with Python".
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B091B85B77/
> 
> (It should be available in most other Amazon stores too)

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From grant.b.edwards at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:52:24 2021
From: grant.b.edwards at gmail.com (Grant Edwards)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 18:52:24 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <s3vqbo$15h6$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s3vs18$5r6$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 2021-03-30, Alan Gauld via Python-list <python-list at python.org> wrote:
> On 30/03/2021 17:14, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> Is the kindle format readable via a web browser pointed at
>> read.amazon.com (AKA "Kindle Cloud Reader)?
>
> It seems to be, I downloaded the free sample and could
> read the first 2 chapters on the web reader.

It is. I just bought the kindle version on the US site, and it renders
fine in the cloud reader. It would be cool if you could cut/paste code
examples from the book into IDLE or a text editor, but I've never been
able to get the cloud reader to allow that sort of thing.

--
Grant




From brian.j.oney at googlemail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:05:00 2021
From: brian.j.oney at googlemail.com (Brian Oney)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:05:00 +0200
Subject: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpdPbhw_jdzZ3WOx98UgLpfoXJm5Y41Xk7sVvNejjpfxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>
 <CAPTjJmpdPbhw_jdzZ3WOx98UgLpfoXJm5Y41Xk7sVvNejjpfxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4558921-9B11-4D34-8697-1A4EF9AFC253@gmail.com>

Congratulations!

Indeed, I was wondering for a moment if this was a guide to al dente spaghetti code. With each curse being a funny way to mess with the colleagues performing the code review ;)

Or a list of funny Monty Python curses?

Or a set of programming problems that are cursed?



On March 30, 2021 6:35:20 PM GMT+02:00, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:21 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
><python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Congratulations, Alan, on the book.
>>
>> I continue to wonder if people will buy the book for the wrong reason or ban
>> it thinking you created an AI snake that creates and spews new CURSES never
>> heard before.
>
>A reasonable misunderstanding. After all, profanity is the one
>language that every computer programmer understands, regardless of
>culture, tools, era, or anything else.
>
>ChrisA
>-- 
>https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Tue Mar 30 15:07:59 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:07:59 +1300
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <87wnto6dc0.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns664a1.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <87wnto6dc0.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <13843347-22f8-74c2-3b8f-07e59940f581@DancesWithMice.info>

On 31/03/2021 01.22, Loris Bennett wrote:
> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> writes:
>> On 2021-03-30, Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>> If I have dict of dicts, say
>>>
>>>   dod = {
>>>       "alice":
>>>       {
>>>           "lang": "python",
>>>           "level": "expert"
>>>       },
>>>       "bob":
>>>       {
>>>           "lang": "perl",
>>>           "level": "noob"
>>>       }
>>>   }
>>>
>>> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
>>> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
...

>>>
>>> than just
>>>
>>>   lod = []
>>>   for name in dod:
>>>       d = dod[name]
>>>       d["name"] = name
>>>       lod.append(d)


Please be aware of the 'law of unintended consequences' - what
functional programmers call "side-effects"!

At the end of the above code, not only has "lod" been created (per spec)
but "dod" is no longer what it once was.

Thus, future code may not rely upon the (above) structure. Of course, if
by "convert" you mean transform, ie that "dod" will be del()[eted]
afterwards, such may be completely unimportant.


from pprint import pprint as pp
import copy

dod = {
      "alice":
      {
          "lang": "python",
          "level": "expert"
      },
      "bob":
      {
          "lang": "perl",
          "level": "noob"
      }
}

original = copy.deepcopy( dod )
lod = []
for name in dod:
    d = dod[name]
    d["name"] = name
    lod.append(d)

print( original == dod )
pp(dod)
pp(original)


False
{'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert', 'name': 'alice'},
 'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob', 'name': 'bob'}}
{'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert'},
 'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob'}}

-- 
Regards,
=dn

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 15:16:57 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 20:16:57 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmpik63cGCvSCiZ0N44wFSi-Cs3xjLZurA+t5i26ngi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <s3uodl$16em$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <CAPTjJmpik63cGCvSCiZ0N44wFSi-Cs3xjLZurA+t5i26ngi-6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s3vtf9$14p8$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 30/03/2021 16:50, Chris Angelico wrote:

>> A 1GB process on modern computers is hardly a big problem?
>> Most machines have 4G and many have 16G or even 32G
>> nowadays.
>>
> 
> Desktop systems maybe, but if you rent yourself a worker box, it might
> not have anything like that much. Especially if you need to have
> multiple of them.

Rental servers on the cloud. Now that's after my time.
The last server I used had 128GB and anything less than
32GB wasn't worthy of the name.

I forget you can rent virtual servers for pennies
these days! :-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From drsalists at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 18:19:36 2021
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:19:36 -0700
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_qcDCiCAwoz-Awa0fvJhbrd2BimuN0wsFS0M-VLAsjOLA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:25 AM Alexey <zen.supagood at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question right. If I have 4 workers,
> they require 4Gb
> in idle state and some extra memory when they execute other tasks. If I
> increase workers
> count up to 16, they`ll eat all the memory I have (16GB) on my machine and
> will crash as soon
> as system get swapped.
>
What if you increase the machine's (operating system's) swap space?  Does
that take care of the problem in practice?

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 19:09:02 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 00:09:02 +0100
Subject: Ann: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <s3vs18$5r6$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <s3vqbo$15h6$1@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vs18$5r6$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s40b2f$s6r$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 30/03/2021 19:52, Grant Edwards wrote:

> It is. I just bought the kindle version on the US site, and it renders
> fine in the cloud reader. It would be cool if you could cut/paste code
> examples from the book into IDLE or a text editor, but I've never been
> able to get the cloud reader to allow that sort of thing.

Blast! You just reminded me I meant to add a link to where
the source code zip lives! (Or will live once I put it there....)
I'll do an update of the kindle book but I don't know
if you can get the update for free...

I'll also post the zip file url here once I've put it up.
Thanks for that reminder.

As for cut n paste, the requirement to write in MS Word
and convert to PDF/Kindle means that quotes etc get
all messed up. And as for Python indentation I shudder
to think. That's why I intended to put the source code up.

Watch this space. Hopefully tomorrow.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 30 19:12:02 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 00:12:02 +0100
Subject: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <D4558921-9B11-4D34-8697-1A4EF9AFC253@gmail.com>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>
 <CAPTjJmpdPbhw_jdzZ3WOx98UgLpfoXJm5Y41Xk7sVvNejjpfxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D4558921-9B11-4D34-8697-1A4EF9AFC253@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s40b82$kc$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 30/03/2021 20:05, Brian Oney via Python-list wrote:
> Congratulations!
> 
> Indeed, I was wondering for a moment if this was a guide to al dente spaghetti code. With each curse being a funny way to mess with the colleagues performing the code review ;)

You may jest but I originally titled it "Programming Python with curses"

And changed it precisely because I thought it might be misunderstood :-)

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From cs at cskk.id.au  Tue Mar 30 22:45:07 2021
From: cs at cskk.id.au (Cameron Simpson)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 13:45:07 +1100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <YGPiM9Iye7HLLUXc@cskk.homeip.net>

Since everyone is talking about vague OS memory use and not at all about 
working set size of Python objects, let me ...

On 29Mar2021 03:12, Alexey <zen.supagood at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption.
>
>I have a class which is doing ETL job. What`s happening inside:
> - fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy

Do you need to? Or do you only need to fetch their ids? Or do you only 
need to fetch a subset of the objects?

It is easy to accidentally suck in way too many db session entity 
objects, or at any rate, more than you need to.

> - iterate over raw data

Can you prescan the data to determine which objects you care about, 
reducing the number of objects you need to obtain?

> - create new/update existing objects

Depoending what you're doing, you may not need to "create new/update 
existing objects". You could collate changes and do an UPSERT (the 
incantation varies a little depending on the SQL dialect behind 
SQLAlchemy).

> - commit changes

Do you discard the SQLAlchemy session after this? Otherwise it may lurk 
and hold onto the objects. Commit doesn't forget the objects.

For my current client we have a script to import historic data from a 
legacy system. It has many of the issues you're dealing with: the naive 
(ORM) way consumes gads of memory, and can be very slow too (udating 
objects in an ad hoc manner tends to do individual UPDATE SQL commands, 
very latency laden).

I wrote a generic batch UPSERT function which took an accrued list of 
changes and prepared a PostgreSQL INSERT...ON CONFLICT statement. The 
main script hands it the accrued updates and it runs batches (which lets 
up do progress reporting). Orders of magnitude faster, _and_ does not 
require storing the db objects.

On the subject of "fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy": you 
may not need to do that, either. Can you identify _which_ objects are of 
interest? Associate with the same script I've go a batch_select 
function: it takes an terable if object ids and collects them in 
batches, where before we were really scanning the whole db because we 
had an arbitrary scattering of relevant object ids from the raw data.

It basicly collected ids into batches, and ran a SELECT...WHERE id in 
(batch-of-ids). It's really fast considering, and also scales _way_ down 
when the set of arbitrary ids is small.

I'm happy to walk through the mechanics of these with you; the code at 
this end is Django's ORM, but I prefer SQLAlchemy anyway - the project 
dictated the ORM here.

>Before processing data I create internal cache(dictionary) and store all existing objects in it.
>Every 10000 items I do bulk insert and flush. At the end I run commit command.

Yah. I suspect the session data are not being released. Also, SQLAlchemy 
may be caching sessions or something across runs, since this is a celery 
worker which survives from one task to the next.

You could try explicitly creating a new SQLAlchemy session around your 
task.

>Problem. Before executing, my interpreter process weighs ~100Mb, after first run memory increases up to 500Mb
>and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
>it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.

I don't know enough about Python's "release OS memory" phase. But 
reducing the task memory footprint will help regardless.

Cheers,
Cameron Simpson <cs at cskk.id.au>

From songofacandy at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 23:54:11 2021
From: songofacandy at gmail.com (Inada Naoki)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:54:11 +0900
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
References: <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 7:16 PM Alexey <zen.supagood at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Problem. Before executing, my interpreter process weighs ~100Mb, after first run memory increases up to 500Mb
> and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think
> it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.
>

First of all, I recommend upgrading your Python. Python 3.6 is a bit old.

As you saying, Python can not return the memory to OS until the whole
arena become unused.
If your task releases all objects allocated during the run, Python can
release the memory.
But if your task keeps at least one object, it may prevent releasing
the whole arena (256KB).

Python manages only small (~256bytes) objects. Larger objects is
allocated by malloc().
And glibc malloc may not efficient for some usage. jemalloc is better
for many use cases.

You can get some hints from sys._debugmallocstats(). It prints
obmalloc (allocator for small objects) stats to stderr.
Try printing stats before and after 1st run, and after 2nd run. And
post it in this thread if you can. (no sensible information in the
stats).

That is all I can advise.

-- 
Inada Naoki  <songofacandy at gmail.com>

From nospam at please.ty  Wed Mar 31 02:11:27 2021
From: nospam at please.ty (jak)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:11:27 +0200
Subject: New Python curses book
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io>
 <036801d72580$833a8110$89af8330$@verizon.net>
 <CAPTjJmpdPbhw_jdzZ3WOx98UgLpfoXJm5Y41Xk7sVvNejjpfxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D4558921-9B11-4D34-8697-1A4EF9AFC253@gmail.com>
 <mailman.322.1617131105.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <s413q4$ind$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Il 30/03/2021 21:05, Brian Oney ha scritto:
> Congratulations!
> 
> Indeed, I was wondering for a moment if this was a guide to al dente spaghetti code. With each curse being a funny way to mess with the colleagues performing the code review ;)

Indeed, I was wondering for a moment if this was a guide to "spaghetti 
al dente" code...
> 
> Or a list of funny Monty Python curses?
> 
> Or a set of programming problems that are cursed?
> 
> 
> 
> On March 30, 2021 6:35:20 PM GMT+02:00, Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 3:21 AM Avi Gross via Python-list
>> <python-list at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Congratulations, Alan, on the book.
>>>
>>> I continue to wonder if people will buy the book for the wrong reason or ban
>>> it thinking you created an AI snake that creates and spews new CURSES never
>>> heard before.
>>
>> A reasonable misunderstanding. After all, profanity is the one
>> language that every computer programmer understands, regardless of
>> culture, tools, era, or anything else.
>>
>> ChrisA
>> -- 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Wed Mar 31 02:24:06 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 08:24:06 +0200
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns664a1.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <87wnto6dc0.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <13843347-22f8-74c2-3b8f-07e59940f581@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.323.1617131294.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <87sg4bsuwp.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

dn <PythonList at DancesWithMice.info> writes:

> On 31/03/2021 01.22, Loris Bennett wrote:
>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> writes:
>>> On 2021-03-30, Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>> If I have dict of dicts, say
>>>>
>>>>   dod = {
>>>>       "alice":
>>>>       {
>>>>           "lang": "python",
>>>>           "level": "expert"
>>>>       },
>>>>       "bob":
>>>>       {
>>>>           "lang": "perl",
>>>>           "level": "noob"
>>>>       }
>>>>   }
>>>>
>>>> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
>>>> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
> ...
>
>>>>
>>>> than just
>>>>
>>>>   lod = []
>>>>   for name in dod:
>>>>       d = dod[name]
>>>>       d["name"] = name
>>>>       lod.append(d)
>
>
> Please be aware of the 'law of unintended consequences' - what
> functional programmers call "side-effects"!
>
> At the end of the above code, not only has "lod" been created (per spec)
> but "dod" is no longer what it once was.
>
> Thus, future code may not rely upon the (above) structure. Of course, if
> by "convert" you mean transform, ie that "dod" will be del()[eted]
> afterwards, such may be completely unimportant.
>
>
> from pprint import pprint as pp
> import copy
>
> dod = {
>       "alice":
>       {
>           "lang": "python",
>           "level": "expert"
>       },
>       "bob":
>       {
>           "lang": "perl",
>           "level": "noob"
>       }
> }
>
> original = copy.deepcopy( dod )
> lod = []
> for name in dod:
>     d = dod[name]
>     d["name"] = name
>     lod.append(d)
>
> print( original == dod )
> pp(dod)
> pp(original)
>
>
> False
> {'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert', 'name': 'alice'},
>  'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob', 'name': 'bob'}}
> {'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert'},
>  'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob'}}

Thanks for pointing that out.  Coming from Perl that's something I need
to watch out for.  So if I do

  $ a = ["alice", "bob", "carol"]
  $ b = a
  $ b[1] = "bert"
  $ b
  ['alice', 'bert', 'carol']
  $ a
  ['alice', 'bert', 'carol']

I see that changing one list changes the other because 'a' and 'b' are
just bindings to the same object.  However, If I look at non-list
variables:

   $ a = "bob"
   $ b = a
   $ b = "bert"
   $ a
  'bob'

that doesn't happen.  What's the rational for that and where can I find
it in the Python documentation?

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Mar 31 02:37:38 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 19:37:38 +1300
Subject: Canonical conversion of dict of dicts to list of dicts
In-Reply-To: <87sg4bsuwp.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <874kgs7u0j.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <slrns664a1.49m.jon+usenet@raven.unequivocal.eu>
 <87wnto6dc0.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <13843347-22f8-74c2-3b8f-07e59940f581@DancesWithMice.info>
 <mailman.323.1617131294.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <87sg4bsuwp.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <96e1966d-51dd-620b-64c4-a715aeef1aee@DancesWithMice.info>

On 31/03/2021 19.24, Loris Bennett wrote:
> dn <PythonList at DancesWithMice.info> writes:
> 
>> On 31/03/2021 01.22, Loris Bennett wrote:
>>> Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet at unequivocal.eu> writes:
>>>> On 2021-03-30, Loris Bennett <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>>> If I have dict of dicts, say
>>>>>
>>>>>   dod = {
>>>>>       "alice":
>>>>>       {
>>>>>           "lang": "python",
>>>>>           "level": "expert"
>>>>>       },
>>>>>       "bob":
>>>>>       {
>>>>>           "lang": "perl",
>>>>>           "level": "noob"
>>>>>       }
>>>>>   }
>>>>>
>>>>> is there a canonical, or more pythonic, way of converting the outer key
>>>>> to a value to get a list of dicts, e.g
>> ...
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> than just
>>>>>
>>>>>   lod = []
>>>>>   for name in dod:
>>>>>       d = dod[name]
>>>>>       d["name"] = name
>>>>>       lod.append(d)
>>
>>
>> Please be aware of the 'law of unintended consequences' - what
>> functional programmers call "side-effects"!
>>
>> At the end of the above code, not only has "lod" been created (per spec)
>> but "dod" is no longer what it once was.
>>
>> Thus, future code may not rely upon the (above) structure. Of course, if
>> by "convert" you mean transform, ie that "dod" will be del()[eted]
>> afterwards, such may be completely unimportant.
>>
>>
>> from pprint import pprint as pp
>> import copy
>>
>> dod = {
>>       "alice":
>>       {
>>           "lang": "python",
>>           "level": "expert"
>>       },
>>       "bob":
>>       {
>>           "lang": "perl",
>>           "level": "noob"
>>       }
>> }
>>
>> original = copy.deepcopy( dod )
>> lod = []
>> for name in dod:
>>     d = dod[name]
>>     d["name"] = name
>>     lod.append(d)
>>
>> print( original == dod )
>> pp(dod)
>> pp(original)
>>
>>
>> False
>> {'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert', 'name': 'alice'},
>>  'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob', 'name': 'bob'}}
>> {'alice': {'lang': 'python', 'level': 'expert'},
>>  'bob': {'lang': 'perl', 'level': 'noob'}}
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out.  Coming from Perl that's something I need
> to watch out for.  So if I do
> 
>   $ a = ["alice", "bob", "carol"]
>   $ b = a
>   $ b[1] = "bert"
>   $ b
>   ['alice', 'bert', 'carol']
>   $ a
>   ['alice', 'bert', 'carol']
> 
> I see that changing one list changes the other because 'a' and 'b' are
> just bindings to the same object.  However, If I look at non-list
> variables:
> 
>    $ a = "bob"
>    $ b = a
>    $ b = "bert"
>    $ a
>   'bob'
> 
> that doesn't happen.  What's the rational for that and where can I find
> it in the Python documentation?

Good observation!
Important to differences.

Python offers mutable (can be changed) and immutable (can't) objects
(remember: 'everything is an object'):
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html?highlight=mutable%20data

PS this even applies when the two identifiers pointing at the same
object are argument(s) to a function!
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:12:48 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 01:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.309.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <YGLeuZERmIO7UMuT@mail.imaginingit.com>
 <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.309.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <a2eee90d-48af-49cd-b2b6-1341e7e182ebn@googlegroups.com>

???????, 30 ????? 2021 ?. ? 18:43:51 UTC+3, Marco Ippolito:
> Have you tried to identify where in your code the surprising memory allocations 
> are made? 
Yes. 
> You could "bisect search" by adding breakpoints: 
> 
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html#breakpoint 
> 
> At which point does the problem start manifesting itself?
The problem spot is my cache(dict). I simplified my code to just load 
all the objects to this dict and then clear it. After loading "top" 
was showing resident memory usage at 3.3Gb and immediately after that I
did self.__cache.clear() and memory reduced to 1Gb. Then I tried to find 
any references to this dict with no luck. Also I tried "del self.__cache". 
For debugging I use Pycharm

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:26:57 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 01:26:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.310.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <s3uodl$16em$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.310.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <2eb9a9b3-ba46-4b29-8ee0-701be97af064n@googlegroups.com>

???????, 30 ????? 2021 ?. ? 18:43:54 UTC+3, Alan Gauld:
> On 29/03/2021 11:12, Alexey wrote: 

> The first thing you really need to tell us is which 
> OS you are using? Memory management varies wildly 
> depending on OS. Even different flavours of *nix 
> do it differently. 

I'm using Ubuntu(5.8.0-45-generic #51~20.04.1-Ubuntu) in
development and Centos 7 in production

> However, most do it effectively, so you as a programmer 
> shouldn't have to worry too much provided you aren't 
> leaking, which you don't think you are.
> > and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue 
> > to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think 
> > it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release 
> > allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.
> A 1GB process on modern computers is hardly a big problem? 
> Most machines have 4G and many have 16G or even 32G 
> nowadays. 

In case of one worker it's ok. But when 8 workers holding 8Gb 
of garbage it becomes a problem and I cant ignore this due 
to company rules.

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:35:52 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 01:35:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.325.1617142790.4974.python-list@python.org>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAGGBd_qcDCiCAwoz-Awa0fvJhbrd2BimuN0wsFS0M-VLAsjOLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.325.1617142790.4974.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <89cf74ea-810e-4522-bf01-305a290b51e0n@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 01:20:06 UTC+3, Dan Stromberg:
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 1:25 AM Alexey <zen.su... at gmail.com> wrote: 
> 
> > 
> > I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question right. If I have 4 workers, 
> > they require 4Gb 
> > in idle state and some extra memory when they execute other tasks. If I 
> > increase workers 
> > count up to 16, they`ll eat all the memory I have (16GB) on my machine and 
> > will crash as soon 
> > as system get swapped. 
> >
> What if you increase the machine's (operating system's) swap space? Does 
> that take care of the problem in practice?

I can`t do that because it will affect other containers running on this host.
In my opinion it may significantly reduce their performance.

From maroloccio at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 04:52:22 2021
From: maroloccio at gmail.com (Marco Ippolito)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 05:52:22 -0300
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <a2eee90d-48af-49cd-b2b6-1341e7e182ebn@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <YGLeuZERmIO7UMuT@mail.imaginingit.com>
 <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.309.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <a2eee90d-48af-49cd-b2b6-1341e7e182ebn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <YGQ4IlNvLCz/1m13@mail.imaginingit.com>

> > At which point does the problem start manifesting itself?
> The problem spot is my cache(dict). I simplified my code to just load 
> all the objects to this dict and then clear it.

What's the memory utilisation just _before_ performing this load? I am assuming
it's much less than this 1 GB you can't seem to drop under after you run your
`.clear()`.

> After loading "top"

You may be using `top` in command line mode already but in case you aren't,
consider sorting processes whose command name is `python` (or whatever filter
selects your program) by RSS, like so, for easier collection of
machine-readable statistics:

# ps -o rss,ppid,pid,args --sort -rss $(pgrep python)
  RSS    PPID     PID COMMAND
  32836   14130   14377 python3
  10644   14540   14758 python3

> For debugging I use Pycharm

Sounds good, you can then use the GUI to set the breakpoint and consult
external statistics-gathering programs (like the `ps` invocation above) as you
step through your code.

Pycharm also allows you to see which variables are in scope in a particular
stack frame, so you'll have an easier time reasoning about garbage collection
in terms of which references might be preventing GC.

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 05:25:02 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 02:25:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1617158713.28446.python-list@python.org>
References: <YGPiM9Iye7HLLUXc@cskk.homeip.net>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.2.1617158713.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0464f4e2-0a19-4956-bbc9-4312b7666bf9n@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 05:45:27 UTC+3, cameron... at gmail.com:
> Since everyone is talking about vague OS memory use and not at all about 
> working set size of Python objects, let me ...
> On 29Mar2021 03:12, Alexey <zen.su... at gmail.com> wrote: 
> >I'm experiencing problems with memory consumption. 
> > 
> >I have a class which is doing ETL job. What`s happening inside: 
> > - fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy
> Do you need to? Or do you only need to fetch their ids? Or do you only 
> need to fetch a subset of the objects? 

I really need all the objects because I'm performing update and create 
operations. If I'll be fetching them on the go, this will take hours or even days
to complete.

> It is easy to accidentally suck in way too many db session entity 
> objects, or at any rate, more than you need to.
> > - iterate over raw data
> Can you prescan the data to determine which objects you care about, 
> reducing the number of objects you need to obtain?

In this case I still need to iterate over raw and old data. As I said before
if I'll try it without caching it'll take days

> > - create new/update existing objects
> Depoending what you're doing, you may not need to "create new/update 
> existing objects". You could collate changes and do an UPSERT (the 
> incantation varies a little depending on the SQL dialect behind 
> SQLAlchemy). 
Good advice.

> > - commit changes 
> 
> Do you discard the SQLAlchemy session after this? Otherwise it may lurk 
> and hold onto the objects. Commit doesn't forget the objects. 
I tried expire_all() and expunge_all. Should I try rollback ?

> For my current client we have a script to import historic data from a 
> legacy system. It has many of the issues you're dealing with: the naive 
> (ORM) way consumes gads of memory, and can be very slow too (udating 
> objects in an ad hoc manner tends to do individual UPDATE SQL commands, 
> very latency laden). 
> 
> I wrote a generic batch UPSERT function which took an accrued list of 
> changes and prepared a PostgreSQL INSERT...ON CONFLICT statement. The 
> main script hands it the accrued updates and it runs batches (which lets 
> up do progress reporting). Orders of magnitude faster, _and_ does not 
> require storing the db objects. 
> 
> On the subject of "fetching existing objects from DB via SQLAchemy": you 
> may not need to do that, either. Can you identify _which_ objects are of 
> interest? Associate with the same script I've go a batch_select 
> function: it takes an terable if object ids and collects them in 
> batches, where before we were really scanning the whole db because we 
> had an arbitrary scattering of relevant object ids from the raw data. 

I'll try to analyze if it's possible to rewrite code this way

> It basicly collected ids into batches, and ran a SELECT...WHERE id in 
> (batch-of-ids). It's really fast considering, and also scales _way_ down 
> when the set of arbitrary ids is small. 
> 
> I'm happy to walk through the mechanics of these with you; the code at 
> this end is Django's ORM, but I prefer SQLAlchemy anyway - the project 
> dictated the ORM here.
> >Before processing data I create internal cache(dictionary) and store all existing objects in it. 
> >Every 10000 items I do bulk insert and flush. At the end I run commit command.
> Yah. I suspect the session data are not being released. Also, SQLAlchemy 
> may be caching sessions or something across runs, since this is a celery 
> worker which survives from one task to the next. 

I tried to dig in this direction. Created a few graphs with "objgraph"
 but it has so much references under the hood. I'll try to measure size of session
 object before and after building cache.

> You could try explicitly creating a new SQLAlchemy session around your 
> task.
> >Problem. Before executing, my interpreter process weighs ~100Mb, after first run memory increases up to 500Mb 
> >and after second run it weighs 1Gb. If I will continue to run this class, memory wont increase, so I think 
> >it's not a memory leak, but rather Python wont release allocated memory back to OS. Maybe I'm wrong.
> I don't know enough about Python's "release OS memory" phase. But 
> reducing the task memory footprint will help regardless. 

Definitely. I'll think about it.
Thank you!


From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 05:43:47 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 02:43:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 06:54:52 UTC+3, Inada Naoki:

> First of all, I recommend upgrading your Python. Python 3.6 is a bit old. 
I was thinking about that.

> As you saying, Python can not return the memory to OS until the whole 
> arena become unused. 
> If your task releases all objects allocated during the run, Python can 
> release the memory. 
> But if your task keeps at least one object, it may prevent releasing 
> the whole arena (256KB). 
> 
> Python manages only small (~256bytes) objects. Larger objects is 
> allocated by malloc(). 
> And glibc malloc may not efficient for some usage. jemalloc is better 
> for many use cases. 
> 
> You can get some hints from sys._debugmallocstats(). It prints 
> obmalloc (allocator for small objects) stats to stderr. 
> Try printing stats before and after 1st run, and after 2nd run. And 
> post it in this thread if you can. (no sensible information in the 
> stats). 
> 
> That is all I can advise. 

********** Before first run:
class   size   num pools   blocks in use  avail blocks
-----   ----   ---------   -------------  ------------
    0      8           5            2404           126
    1     16           3             611           148
    2     24          13            2103            81
    3     32         371           46703            43
    4     40         292           29422            70
    5     48         233           19499            73
    6     56        1360           97903            17
    7     64        1614          101654            28
    8     72        1964          109947            37
    9     80        1056           52783            17
   10     88         436           20023            33
   11     96         297           12455            19
   12    104         266           10095            13
   13    112         193            6930            18
   14    120         127            4170            21
   15    128         217            6712            15
   16    136        1299           37669             2
   17    144        1223           34239             5
   18    152         113            2920            18
   19    160          78            1949             1
   20    168        1474           35369             7
   21    176          54            1237             5
   22    184          46             991            21
   23    192          42             864            18
   24    200          53            1054             6
   25    208          39             713            28
   26    216          54             955            17
   27    224         575           10350             0
   28    232          43             724             7
   29    240          32             497            15
   30    248          73            1153            15
   31    256          29             431             4
   32    264          25             375             0
   33    272          46             637             7
   34    280          24             328             8
   35    288          20             280             0
   36    296         398            5167             7
   37    304          21             261            12
   38    312          22             256             8
   39    320          17             195             9
   40    328          18             215             1
   41    336          57             675             9
   42    344          17             183             4
   43    352          18             194             4
   44    360          14             153             1
   45    368          14             153             1
   46    376          15             148             2
   47    384          15             148             2
   48    392          14             131             9
   49    400          15             149             1
   50    408          17             147             6
   51    416          16             142             2
   52    424          25             221             4
   53    432          36             317             7
   54    440          44             393             3
   55    448          45             399             6
   56    456          53             420             4
   57    464          46             363             5
   58    472          36             288             0
   59    480          35             274             6
   60    488          29             227             5
   61    496          29             230             2
   62    504          21             161             7
   63    512          85             589             6

# arenas allocated total           =                  776
# arenas reclaimed                 =                  542
# arenas highwater mark            =                  234
# arenas allocated current         =                  234
234 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =           61,341,696

# bytes in allocated blocks        =           59,737,176
# bytes in available blocks        =              122,848
15 unused pools * 4096 bytes       =               61,440
# bytes lost to pool headers       =              718,128
# bytes lost to quantization       =              702,104
# bytes lost to arena alignment    =                    0
Total                              =           61,341,696

       3 free PyCFunctionObjects * 48 bytes each =                  144
            6 free PyDictObjects * 48 bytes each =                  288
           2 free PyFloatObjects * 24 bytes each =                   48
          0 free PyFrameObjects * 384 bytes each =                    0
           14 free PyListObjects * 40 bytes each =                  560
          7 free PyMethodObjects * 40 bytes each =                  280
   7 free 1-sized PyTupleObjects * 32 bytes each =                  224
  10 free 2-sized PyTupleObjects * 40 bytes each =                  400
 288 free 3-sized PyTupleObjects * 48 bytes each =               13,824
   2 free 4-sized PyTupleObjects * 56 bytes each =                  112
 185 free 5-sized PyTupleObjects * 64 bytes each =               11,840
   2 free 6-sized PyTupleObjects * 72 bytes each =                  144
   0 free 7-sized PyTupleObjects * 80 bytes each =                    0
   1 free 8-sized PyTupleObjects * 88 bytes each =                   88
   1 free 9-sized PyTupleObjects * 96 bytes each =                   96
 0 free 10-sized PyTupleObjects * 104 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 11-sized PyTupleObjects * 112 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 12-sized PyTupleObjects * 120 bytes each =                    0
 1 free 13-sized PyTupleObjects * 128 bytes each =                  128
10 free 14-sized PyTupleObjects * 136 bytes each =                1,360
52 free 15-sized PyTupleObjects * 144 bytes each =                7,488
33 free 16-sized PyTupleObjects * 152 bytes each =                5,016
 0 free 17-sized PyTupleObjects * 160 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 18-sized PyTupleObjects * 168 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 19-sized PyTupleObjects * 176 bytes each =                    0

********** After first run:
class   size   num pools   blocks in use  avail blocks
-----   ----   ---------   -------------  ------------
    0      8           5            2465            65
    1     16           3             620           139
    2     24          13            2137            47
    3     32         409           47145          4389
    4     40         295           29630           165
    5     48         235           19638           102
    6     56        1517          101292          7932
    7     64        1670          103487          1723
    8     72        2263          112937         13791
    9     80        1076           53473           327
   10     88         441           19958           328
   11     96         360           14537           583
   12    104         271           10243            55
   13    112         197            6985           107
   14    120         129            4204            53
   15    128         221            6808            43
   16    136        1309           37909            52
   17    144        1231           34430            38
   18    152         113            2936             2
   19    160          80            1952            48
   20    168        1507           35661           507
   21    176          55            1210            55
   22    184          46             995            17
   23    192          42             869            13
   24    200          53            1057             3
   25    208          39             717            24
   26    216          54             957            15
   27    224         584           10423            89
   28    232          44             732            16
   29    240          32             501            11
   30    248          73            1156            12
   31    256          29             431             4
   32    264          26             376            14
   33    272          46             643             1
   34    280          24             330             6
   35    288          21             283            11
   36    296         407            5246            45
   37    304          21             263            10
   38    312          22             257             7
   39    320          17             197             7
   40    328          19             218            10
   41    336          57             682             2
   42    344          17             184             3
   43    352          18             194             4
   44    360          14             153             1
   45    368          14             154             0
   46    376          15             150             0
   47    384          15             149             1
   48    392          14             134             6
   49    400          15             150             0
   50    408          17             147             6
   51    416          17             145             8
   52    424          29             254             7
   53    432          41             365             4
   54    440          50             443             7
   55    448          52             461             7
   56    456          61             488             0
   57    464          54             413            19
   58    472          41             328             0
   59    480          39             309             3
   60    488          33             258             6
   61    496          32             255             1
   62    504          25             193             7
   63    512          97             660            19

# arenas allocated total           =               47,669
# arenas reclaimed                 =               47,316
# arenas highwater mark            =               10,114
# arenas allocated current         =                  353
353 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =           92,536,832

# bytes in allocated blocks        =           60,998,912
# bytes in available blocks        =            2,086,632
6826 unused pools * 4096 bytes     =           27,959,296
# bytes lost to pool headers       =              756,768
# bytes lost to quantization       =              735,224
# bytes lost to arena alignment    =                    0
Total                              =           92,536,832

       6 free PyCFunctionObjects * 48 bytes each =                  288
           80 free PyDictObjects * 48 bytes each =                3,840
           3 free PyFloatObjects * 24 bytes each =                   72
          2 free PyFrameObjects * 384 bytes each =                  768
           80 free PyListObjects * 40 bytes each =                3,200
        256 free PyMethodObjects * 40 bytes each =               10,240
2000 free 1-sized PyTupleObjects * 32 bytes each =               64,000
 481 free 2-sized PyTupleObjects * 40 bytes each =               19,240
2000 free 3-sized PyTupleObjects * 48 bytes each =               96,000
  15 free 4-sized PyTupleObjects * 56 bytes each =                  840
   3 free 5-sized PyTupleObjects * 64 bytes each =                  192
2000 free 6-sized PyTupleObjects * 72 bytes each =              144,000
   2 free 7-sized PyTupleObjects * 80 bytes each =                  160
   2 free 8-sized PyTupleObjects * 88 bytes each =                  176
   1 free 9-sized PyTupleObjects * 96 bytes each =                   96
 0 free 10-sized PyTupleObjects * 104 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 11-sized PyTupleObjects * 112 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 12-sized PyTupleObjects * 120 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 13-sized PyTupleObjects * 128 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 14-sized PyTupleObjects * 136 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 15-sized PyTupleObjects * 144 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 16-sized PyTupleObjects * 152 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 17-sized PyTupleObjects * 160 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 18-sized PyTupleObjects * 168 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 19-sized PyTupleObjects * 176 bytes each =                    0

 ********** After second run:
class   size   num pools   blocks in use  avail blocks
-----   ----   ---------   -------------  ------------
    0      8           5            2465            65
    1     16           3             620           139
    2     24          13            2141            43
    3     32         410           47144          4516
    4     40         296           29664           232
    5     48         235           19638           102
    6     56        1554          101318         10570
    7     64        1684          103495          2597
    8     72        2361          112952         19264
    9     80        1078           53472           428
   10     88         443           19960           418
   11     96         360           14537           583
   12    104         272           10243            93
   13    112         196            6985            71
   14    120         129            4205            52
   15    128         222            6810            72
   16    136        1310           37909            81
   17    144        1231           34430            38
   18    152         113            2936             2
   19    160          80            1952            48
   20    168        1513           35658           654
   21    176          55            1210            55
   22    184          46             995            17
   23    192          42             869            13
   24    200          53            1057             3
   25    208          39             717            24
   26    216          54             957            15
   27    224         584           10425            87
   28    232          44             732            16
   29    240          32             501            11
   30    248          73            1156            12
   31    256          29             431             4
   32    264          26             376            14
   33    272          46             643             1
   34    280          24             330             6
   35    288          21             283            11
   36    296         407            5247            44
   37    304          21             263            10
   38    312          22             257             7
   39    320          17             197             7
   40    328          19             218            10
   41    336          57             682             2
   42    344          17             184             3
   43    352          18             194             4
   44    360          14             153             1
   45    368          15             154            11
   46    376          15             150             0
   47    384          15             149             1
   48    392          14             134             6
   49    400          15             150             0
   50    408          17             147             6
   51    416          17             145             8
   52    424          29             260             1
   53    432          42             374             4
   54    440          51             451             8
   55    448          53             473             4
   56    456          62             493             3
   57    464          54             424             8
   58    472          42             334             2
   59    480          40             316             4
   60    488          33             258             6
   61    496          33             257             7
   62    504          25             199             1
   63    512          97             664            15

# arenas allocated total           =               63,635
# arenas reclaimed                 =               63,238
# arenas highwater mark            =               10,114
# arenas allocated current         =                  397
397 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =          104,071,168

# bytes in allocated blocks        =           61,039,064
# bytes in available blocks        =            2,734,600
9471 unused pools * 4096 bytes     =           38,793,216
# bytes lost to pool headers       =              764,976
# bytes lost to quantization       =              739,312
# bytes lost to arena alignment    =                    0
Total                              =          104,071,168

       3 free PyCFunctionObjects * 48 bytes each =                  144
           80 free PyDictObjects * 48 bytes each =                3,840
           4 free PyFloatObjects * 24 bytes each =                   96
          5 free PyFrameObjects * 384 bytes each =                1,920
           80 free PyListObjects * 40 bytes each =                3,200
        256 free PyMethodObjects * 40 bytes each =               10,240
2000 free 1-sized PyTupleObjects * 32 bytes each =               64,000
 482 free 2-sized PyTupleObjects * 40 bytes each =               19,280
2000 free 3-sized PyTupleObjects * 48 bytes each =               96,000
  15 free 4-sized PyTupleObjects * 56 bytes each =                  840
   3 free 5-sized PyTupleObjects * 64 bytes each =                  192
2000 free 6-sized PyTupleObjects * 72 bytes each =              144,000
   2 free 7-sized PyTupleObjects * 80 bytes each =                  160
   2 free 8-sized PyTupleObjects * 88 bytes each =                  176
   1 free 9-sized PyTupleObjects * 96 bytes each =                   96
 0 free 10-sized PyTupleObjects * 104 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 11-sized PyTupleObjects * 112 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 12-sized PyTupleObjects * 120 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 13-sized PyTupleObjects * 128 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 14-sized PyTupleObjects * 136 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 15-sized PyTupleObjects * 144 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 16-sized PyTupleObjects * 152 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 17-sized PyTupleObjects * 160 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 18-sized PyTupleObjects * 168 bytes each =                    0
 0 free 19-sized PyTupleObjects * 176 bytes each =                    0


From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 05:56:44 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 02:56:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1617180748.28446.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <24674.540.820699.469514@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.297.1617035807.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <YGLeuZERmIO7UMuT@mail.imaginingit.com>
 <a2cfab36-3789-476a-986a-c15163bde830n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.309.1617119018.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <YGQ4IlNvLCz/1m13@mail.imaginingit.com>
 <a2eee90d-48af-49cd-b2b6-1341e7e182ebn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.5.1617180748.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <19662dad-402d-4cbe-94be-aa166c5df63an@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 11:52:43 UTC+3, Marco Ippolito:
> > > At which point does the problem start manifesting itself? 
> > The problem spot is my cache(dict). I simplified my code to just load 
> > all the objects to this dict and then clear it.
> What's the memory utilisation just _before_ performing this load? I am assuming 
> it's much less than this 1 GB you can't seem to drop under after you run your 
> `.clear()`. 

Around 100Mb before first run.

> > After loading "top" 
> 
> You may be using `top` in command line mode already but in case you aren't, 
> consider sorting processes whose command name is `python` (or whatever filter 
> selects your program) by RSS, like so, for easier collection of 
> machine-readable statistics:

I'm using following command to highlight what I need -
top -c -p $(pgrep -d',' -f python) and then sort by RSS 
and switch to Mb by pressing 'e'.


> # ps -o rss,ppid,pid,args --sort -rss $(pgrep python) 
> RSS PPID PID COMMAND 
> 32836 14130 14377 python3 
> 10644 14540 14758 python3
> > For debugging I use Pycharm
> Sounds good, you can then use the GUI to set the breakpoint and consult 
> external statistics-gathering programs (like the `ps` invocation above) as you 
> step through your code. 
> 
> Pycharm also allows you to see which variables are in scope in a particular 
> stack frame, so you'll have an easier time reasoning about garbage collection 
> in terms of which references might be preventing GC.

That's what I tried in the first place and I see no references 
to this dict. I'll try that one more time anyway.

From songofacandy at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 07:15:48 2021
From: songofacandy at gmail.com (Inada Naoki)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 20:15:48 +0900
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
 <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfz+TxZkSZP_Gg1MDC=_WvL40-9nOLSe_Y4LKpd51SSU-f+dg@mail.gmail.com>

> ********** Before first run:
> # arenas allocated total           =                  776
> # arenas reclaimed                 =                  542
> # arenas highwater mark            =                  234
> # arenas allocated current         =                  234
> 234 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =           61,341,696
> ********** After first run:
> # arenas allocated total           =               47,669
> # arenas reclaimed                 =               47,316
> # arenas highwater mark            =               10,114
> # arenas allocated current         =                  353
> 353 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =           92,536,832
>  ********** After second run:
> # arenas allocated total           =               63,635
> # arenas reclaimed                 =               63,238
> # arenas highwater mark            =               10,114
> # arenas allocated current         =                  397
> 397 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena    =          104,071,168


OK, memory allocated by obmalloc is 61MB -> 92MB -> 104MB.

Memory usage increasing, but it is much smaller than 1GB. 90% memory
is allocated by malloc().

You should try jemalloc. Trying jemalloc is not hard. You don't need
to rebuild Python.
Google "<your platform> jemalloc LD_PRELOAD".


-- 
Inada Naoki  <songofacandy at gmail.com>

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 07:41:34 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 04:41:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.6.1617189375.28446.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
 <CAEfz+TxZkSZP_Gg1MDC=_WvL40-9nOLSe_Y4LKpd51SSU-f+dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.6.1617189375.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <964f42d3-0003-4e97-99c5-95d17241ec9dn@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 14:16:30 UTC+3, Inada Naoki:
> > ********** Before first run:
> > # arenas allocated total = 776 
> > # arenas reclaimed = 542 
> > # arenas highwater mark = 234 
> > # arenas allocated current = 234 
> > 234 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena = 61,341,696
> > ********** After first run:
> > # arenas allocated total = 47,669 
> > # arenas reclaimed = 47,316 
> > # arenas highwater mark = 10,114 
> > # arenas allocated current = 353 
> > 353 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena = 92,536,832
> > ********** After second run:
> > # arenas allocated total = 63,635 
> > # arenas reclaimed = 63,238 
> > # arenas highwater mark = 10,114 
> > # arenas allocated current = 397 
> > 397 arenas * 262144 bytes/arena = 104,071,168
> OK, memory allocated by obmalloc is 61MB -> 92MB -> 104MB. 
> 
> Memory usage increasing, but it is much smaller than 1GB. 90% memory 
> is allocated by malloc(). 
> 
> You should try jemalloc. Trying jemalloc is not hard. You don't need 
> to rebuild Python. 
> Google "<your platform> jemalloc LD_PRELOAD". 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Inada Naoki <songof... at gmail.com>

With jemalloc it looks like a memory leak :D
After first run it grabs 980Mb, second run 1.4Gb then 2.6Gb and so on

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Wed Mar 31 08:15:49 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:15:49 +0200
Subject: Retrieving non-/etc/passwd users with Python 3?
Message-ID: <87czvfsemi.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Hi,

I want to get a list of users on a Linux system using Python 3.6.  All
the users I am interested in are just available via LDAP and are not in
/etc/passwd.  Thus, in a bash shell I can use 'getent' to display them.

When I try to install the PyPi package

  getent

I get the error

    File "/tmp/pip-build-vu4lziex/getent/setup.py", line 9, in <module>
      long_description = file('README.rst').read(),
  NameError: name 'file' is not defined

I duckduckwent a bit and the problem seems to be that 'file' from Python
2 has been replaced by 'open' in Python 3.

So what's the standard way of getting a list of users in this case?

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 08:27:59 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 23:27:59 +1100
Subject: Retrieving non-/etc/passwd users with Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <87czvfsemi.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <87czvfsemi.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqRsQM+s+Zz6c_GzWUvTRbJU_SXO++6rFyJkbRN-tkGcw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:21 PM Loris Bennett
<loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I want to get a list of users on a Linux system using Python 3.6.  All
> the users I am interested in are just available via LDAP and are not in
> /etc/passwd.  Thus, in a bash shell I can use 'getent' to display them.
>
> When I try to install the PyPi package
>
>   getent
>
> I get the error
>
>     File "/tmp/pip-build-vu4lziex/getent/setup.py", line 9, in <module>
>       long_description = file('README.rst').read(),
>   NameError: name 'file' is not defined
>
> I duckduckwent a bit and the problem seems to be that 'file' from Python
> 2 has been replaced by 'open' in Python 3.
>
> So what's the standard way of getting a list of users in this case?
>

I don't have LDAP experience so I don't know for sure, but is the
stdlib "pwd" module suitable, or does it only read /etc/passwd?

https://docs.python.org/3/library/pwd.html

Failing that, one option - and not as bad as you might think - is
simply to run getent using the subprocess module, and parse its
output. Sometimes that's easier than finding (or porting!) a library.

ChrisA

From loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de  Wed Mar 31 08:45:19 2021
From: loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de (Loris Bennett)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 14:45:19 +0200
Subject: Retrieving non-/etc/passwd users with Python 3?
References: <87czvfsemi.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmqRsQM+s+Zz6c_GzWUvTRbJU_SXO++6rFyJkbRN-tkGcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.7.1617193693.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <878s63sd9c.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:21 PM Loris Bennett
> <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I want to get a list of users on a Linux system using Python 3.6.  All
>> the users I am interested in are just available via LDAP and are not in
>> /etc/passwd.  Thus, in a bash shell I can use 'getent' to display them.
>>
>> When I try to install the PyPi package
>>
>>   getent
>>
>> I get the error
>>
>>     File "/tmp/pip-build-vu4lziex/getent/setup.py", line 9, in <module>
>>       long_description = file('README.rst').read(),
>>   NameError: name 'file' is not defined
>>
>> I duckduckwent a bit and the problem seems to be that 'file' from Python
>> 2 has been replaced by 'open' in Python 3.
>>
>> So what's the standard way of getting a list of users in this case?
>>
>
> I don't have LDAP experience so I don't know for sure, but is the
> stdlib "pwd" module suitable, or does it only read /etc/passwd?
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/library/pwd.html
>
> Failing that, one option - and not as bad as you might think - is
> simply to run getent using the subprocess module, and parse its
> output. Sometimes that's easier than finding (or porting!) a library.

D'oh!  Thanks, 'pwd' is indeed exactly what I need.  When I read the
documentation here

  https://docs.python.org/3.6/library/pwd.html 

I mistakenly got the impression that it was only going to give me the
local users.  It doesn't actually say that, but it mentions /etc/shadow
and not getent.  However, it does talk about the "account and password
database", which is a clue (although our passwords are on an other
system entirely), since "database" is more getent terminology.

In any case, I think 'pwd' is hiding its light under a bushel a bit
here.

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under construction.

From christian at python.org  Wed Mar 31 10:24:43 2021
From: christian at python.org (Christian Heimes)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 16:24:43 +0200
Subject: Retrieving non-/etc/passwd users with Python 3?
In-Reply-To: <878s63sd9c.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
References: <87czvfsemi.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
 <CAPTjJmqRsQM+s+Zz6c_GzWUvTRbJU_SXO++6rFyJkbRN-tkGcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <mailman.7.1617193693.28446.python-list@python.org>
 <878s63sd9c.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <s420nb$qgj$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 31/03/2021 14.45, Loris Bennett wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav at gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:21 PM Loris Bennett
>> <loris.bennett at fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I want to get a list of users on a Linux system using Python 3.6.  All
>>> the users I am interested in are just available via LDAP and are not in
>>> /etc/passwd.  Thus, in a bash shell I can use 'getent' to display them.
>>>
>>> When I try to install the PyPi package
>>>
>>>   getent
>>>
>>> I get the error
>>>
>>>     File "/tmp/pip-build-vu4lziex/getent/setup.py", line 9, in <module>
>>>       long_description = file('README.rst').read(),
>>>   NameError: name 'file' is not defined
>>>
>>> I duckduckwent a bit and the problem seems to be that 'file' from Python
>>> 2 has been replaced by 'open' in Python 3.
>>>
>>> So what's the standard way of getting a list of users in this case?
>>>
>>
>> I don't have LDAP experience so I don't know for sure, but is the
>> stdlib "pwd" module suitable, or does it only read /etc/passwd?
>>
>> https://docs.python.org/3/library/pwd.html
>>
>> Failing that, one option - and not as bad as you might think - is
>> simply to run getent using the subprocess module, and parse its
>> output. Sometimes that's easier than finding (or porting!) a library.
> 
> D'oh!  Thanks, 'pwd' is indeed exactly what I need.  When I read the
> documentation here
> 
>   https://docs.python.org/3.6/library/pwd.html 
> 
> I mistakenly got the impression that it was only going to give me the
> local users.  It doesn't actually say that, but it mentions /etc/shadow
> and not getent.  However, it does talk about the "account and password
> database", which is a clue (although our passwords are on an other
> system entirely), since "database" is more getent terminology.
> 
> In any case, I think 'pwd' is hiding its light under a bushel a bit
> here.

Please open a documentation bug :)

The pwd and grp module use the libc API to get users from the local
account database. On Linux and glibc the account database is handled by
NSS and nsswitch.conf.

By the way I recommend that you use SSSD instead of talking to LDAP
directly. You'll have a much more pleasant experience.

Christian


From jainarjav1410 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 02:11:52 2021
From: jainarjav1410 at gmail.com (Arjav Jain)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:41:52 +0530
Subject: Unable to find 'edit with ide' option in the Context menu
Message-ID: <EB8E78FF-D6C3-45F5-A3FA-9BBCA18A1A5D@hxcore.ol>

   I am using the lastest version of python recently. But I am facing a
   problem with the python files, When I am right clicking any python file
   there is no option for `Edit with idle'. I have repaired the python
   installation too, but this doesn't  solves my problem, please help!

   Sent from [1]Mail for Windows 10



References

   Visible links
   1. https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 04:50:38 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:50:38 +0100
Subject: Source code link was: Re: Ann: New Python curses book
In-Reply-To: <s40b2f$s6r$1@ciao.gmane.io>
References: <s3v12j$br9$2@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vio9$136n$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <s3vqbo$15h6$1@ciao.gmane.io> <s3vs18$5r6$1@ciao.gmane.io>
 <s40b2f$s6r$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Message-ID: <s41d4u$a6c$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 31/03/2021 00:09, Alan Gauld via Python-list wrote:

> Watch this space. Hopefully tomorrow.

The source code is now available in a zip file at:

http://www.alan-g.me.uk/hills/PythonCursesCode.zip

Or via a link on the programming section of my
home page

http://www.alan-g.me.uk/

It is licensed using a Creative Commons license.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos



From dieter at handshake.de  Wed Mar 31 11:17:22 2021
From: dieter at handshake.de (Dieter Maurer)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 17:17:22 +0200
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
References: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
 <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <24676.37506.597710.63214@ixdm.fritz.box>

Alexey wrote at 2021-3-31 02:43 -0700:
>?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 06:54:52 UTC+3, Inada Naoki:
> ...
>> You can get some hints from sys._debugmallocstats(). It prints
>> obmalloc (allocator for small objects) stats to stderr.
>> Try printing stats before and after 1st run, and after 2nd run. And
>> post it in this thread if you can. (no sensible information in the
>> stats).

`glibc` has similar functions to monitor the memory allocation
at the C level: `mallinfo[2]`, `malloc_stats`, `malloc_info`.

The `mallinfo` functions can be called via `ctypes`.
Provided your `glibc` has `mallinfo2`, I recommend its use.

In order to use `malloc_info` from Python, you need
a C extension. I have one implemented via `cython`. Let me know,
if you are interested.

From zen.supagood at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 12:58:38 2021
From: zen.supagood at gmail.com (Alexey)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 09:58:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1617203850.28446.python-list@python.org>
References: <CAEfz+Tz+U1C55BjmS3RtizxuK2pk8EQpFtR1zOzbL=RHKwRj9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.3.1617162879.28446.python-list@python.org>
 <24676.37506.597710.63214@ixdm.fritz.box>
 <0be24f7a-ef8d-4c0c-a029-2ce6b69c3fbfn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.11.1617203850.28446.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID: <d15c06c2-ae9b-4892-a1a8-86a492878643n@googlegroups.com>

?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 18:17:46 UTC+3, Dieter Maurer:
> Alexey wrote at 2021-3-31 02:43 -0700: 
> >?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 06:54:52 UTC+3, Inada Naoki:
> > ...
> >> You can get some hints from sys._debugmallocstats(). It prints 
> >> obmalloc (allocator for small objects) stats to stderr. 
> >> Try printing stats before and after 1st run, and after 2nd run. And 
> >> post it in this thread if you can. (no sensible information in the 
> >> stats).
> `glibc` has similar functions to monitor the memory allocation 
> at the C level: `mallinfo[2]`, `malloc_stats`, `malloc_info`. 
> 
> The `mallinfo` functions can be called via `ctypes`. 
> Provided your `glibc` has `mallinfo2`, I recommend its use. 
> 
> In order to use `malloc_info` from Python, you need 
> a C extension. I have one implemented via `cython`. Let me know, 
> if you are interested.

I think I found something. I'll return tomorrow with update.

From tjreedy at udel.edu  Wed Mar 31 18:49:37 2021
From: tjreedy at udel.edu (Terry Reedy)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 18:49:37 -0400
Subject: Unable to find 'edit with ide' option in the Context menu
In-Reply-To: <EB8E78FF-D6C3-45F5-A3FA-9BBCA18A1A5D@hxcore.ol>
References: <EB8E78FF-D6C3-45F5-A3FA-9BBCA18A1A5D@hxcore.ol>
Message-ID: <s42ua2$ouk$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 3/31/2021 2:11 AM, Arjav Jain wrote:
>     I am using the lastest version of python recently. But I am facing a
>     problem with the python files, When I am right clicking any python file
>     there is no option for `Edit with idle'. I have repaired the python
>     installation too, but this doesn't  solves my problem, please help!

Did you check (or leave checked) [x] Install tkinter and IDLE?
Can you start IDLE otherwise?

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy


From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 19:14:24 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 10:14:24 +1100
Subject: Horrible abuse of __init_subclass__, or elegant hack?
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think this code makes some sort of argument in the debate about
whether Python has too much flexibility or if it's the best
metaprogramming toolset in the world. I'm not sure which side of the
debate it falls on, though.

class Building:
    resource = None
    @classmethod
    def __init_subclass__(bldg):
        super().__init_subclass__()
        print("Building:", bldg.__name__)
        def make_recipe(recip):
            print(recip.__name__.replace("_", " "), "is made in a",
bldg.__name__.replace("_", " "))
        bldg.__init_subclass__ = classmethod(make_recipe)


class Extractor(Building): ...
class Refinery(Building): ...

class Crude(Extractor):
    resource = "Oil"
    time: 1
    Crude: 1

class Plastic(Refinery):
    Crude: 3
    time: 6
    Residue: 1
    Plastic: 2

class Rubber(Refinery):
    Crude: 3
    time: 6
    Residue: 2
    Rubber: 2

Full code is here if you want context:
https://github.com/Rosuav/shed/blob/master/satisfactory-production.py

Subclassing Building defines a class that is a building. (The ellipsis
body is a placeholder; I haven't implemented stuff where the buildings
know about their power consumptions and such. Eventually they'll have
other attributes.) But subclassing a building defines a recipe that is
produced in that building. Markers placed before the "time" are
ingredients, those after the "time" are products.

There are actually a lot of interesting wrinkles to trying to replace
__init_subclass__ on the fly. Things get quite entertaining if you
don't use the decorator, or if you define and decorate the function
outside of the class, or various other combinations.

On a scale of 1 to "submit this to The Daily WTF immediately", how bad
is this code? :)

ChrisA

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Wed Mar 31 19:23:51 2021
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 16:23:51 -0700
Subject: Horrible abuse of __init_subclass__, or elegant hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9baa2c9-ed67-1c28-8de5-d187da6fd7f8@stoneleaf.us>

On 3/31/21 4:14 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I think this code makes some sort of argument in the debate about
> whether Python has too much flexibility or if it's the best
> metaprogramming toolset in the world. I'm not sure which side of the
> debate it falls on, though.

Well, `__init_subclass__` is there to provide metaclass power without needing a full-blown metaclass.

I vote elegant hack.  :)

--
~Ethan~

From PythonList at DancesWithMice.info  Wed Mar 31 20:37:50 2021
From: PythonList at DancesWithMice.info (dn)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 13:37:50 +1300
Subject: Horrible abuse of __init_subclass__, or elegant hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <727bcf76-2a2f-fecf-f090-e9ade0658ab0@DancesWithMice.info>

On 01/04/2021 12.14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> I think this code makes some sort of argument in the debate about
> whether Python has too much flexibility or if it's the best
> metaprogramming toolset in the world. I'm not sure which side of the
> debate it falls on, though.
> 
> class Building:
>     resource = None
>     @classmethod
>     def __init_subclass__(bldg):
>         super().__init_subclass__()
>         print("Building:", bldg.__name__)
>         def make_recipe(recip):
>             print(recip.__name__.replace("_", " "), "is made in a",
> bldg.__name__.replace("_", " "))
>         bldg.__init_subclass__ = classmethod(make_recipe)
> 
> 
> class Extractor(Building): ...
> class Refinery(Building): ...
> 
> class Crude(Extractor):
>     resource = "Oil"
>     time: 1
>     Crude: 1
> 
> class Plastic(Refinery):
>     Crude: 3
>     time: 6
>     Residue: 1
>     Plastic: 2
> 
> class Rubber(Refinery):
>     Crude: 3
>     time: 6
>     Residue: 2
>     Rubber: 2


[pauses for a moment, to let his mind unwind and return to (what passes
as) 'reality']

Without looking into the details/context: surely there's a more
straightforward approach?


As to this, I'm slightly amused, but perhaps not in a good way:

class Sanatorium( Building ):
   patient_name = "Chris"
   duration_of_treatment = "life"


Thus, design suggestion: add a 'back-door' to the __init_subclass__ to
ensure access to the Internet from any/all buildings!
-- 
Regards,
=dn

From rosuav at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 20:54:24 2021
From: rosuav at gmail.com (Chris Angelico)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 11:54:24 +1100
Subject: Horrible abuse of __init_subclass__, or elegant hack?
In-Reply-To: <727bcf76-2a2f-fecf-f090-e9ade0658ab0@DancesWithMice.info>
References: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <727bcf76-2a2f-fecf-f090-e9ade0658ab0@DancesWithMice.info>
Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrXAWGqNBroesOo8juVZiU3OjRAaCQ5wE=8q2UvNZZT2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 1, 2021 at 11:39 AM dn via Python-list
<python-list at python.org> wrote:
>
> On 01/04/2021 12.14, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > I think this code makes some sort of argument in the debate about
> > whether Python has too much flexibility or if it's the best
> > metaprogramming toolset in the world. I'm not sure which side of the
> > debate it falls on, though.
> >
> > class Building:
> >     resource = None
> >     @classmethod
> >     def __init_subclass__(bldg):
> >         super().__init_subclass__()
> >         print("Building:", bldg.__name__)
> >         def make_recipe(recip):
> >             print(recip.__name__.replace("_", " "), "is made in a",
> > bldg.__name__.replace("_", " "))
> >         bldg.__init_subclass__ = classmethod(make_recipe)
> >
> >
> > class Extractor(Building): ...
> > class Refinery(Building): ...
> >
> > class Crude(Extractor):
> >     resource = "Oil"
> >     time: 1
> >     Crude: 1
> >
> > class Plastic(Refinery):
> >     Crude: 3
> >     time: 6
> >     Residue: 1
> >     Plastic: 2
> >
> > class Rubber(Refinery):
> >     Crude: 3
> >     time: 6
> >     Residue: 2
> >     Rubber: 2
>
>
> [pauses for a moment, to let his mind unwind and return to (what passes
> as) 'reality']

Real and imaginary are the same thing, just rotated a quarter turn....

> Without looking into the details/context: surely there's a more
> straightforward approach?

Perhaps, but there are potentially a LOT of recipes, and I needed to
be able to cleanly edit those, even if the code at the top was a mess.
(The goal here is to map out production patterns in the game
"Satisfactory", for the curious. It's easy to add other things, like
computer manufacturing or bauxite processing, simply by adding more
recipes.)

My original plan was basically pairwise tuple summing (deriving a set
of "oil in, water in, rubber out, fuel out" for each set of recipes,
where some might be zero), but it turned out that that wasn't flexible
enough, and it really needed more options than that.

> As to this, I'm slightly amused, but perhaps not in a good way:
>
> class Sanatorium( Building ):
>    patient_name = "Chris"
>    duration_of_treatment = "life"

I already have certificates from Rutledge's Asylum and MaayaInsane's
(unnamed) asylum, so that seems pretty likely.

> Thus, design suggestion: add a 'back-door' to the __init_subclass__ to
> ensure access to the Internet from any/all buildings!

Perfect. Nobody'll find it. I'll have full access to Usenet News from
a secret panel in one of the padded sections of the wall.

ChrisA

From rob.cliffe at btinternet.com  Wed Mar 31 19:14:34 2021
From: rob.cliffe at btinternet.com (Rob Cliffe)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 00:14:34 +0100
Subject: memory consumption
In-Reply-To: <89cf74ea-810e-4522-bf01-305a290b51e0n@googlegroups.com>
References: <bc9f7704-95bc-6bc9-e5a9-ff45947fa3e3@punkt.de>
 <7c09728f-2a39-4e3d-ba5f-cc417cb67e9dn@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.294.1617018704.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAH5vWeCOsK_VXGi1x_NVuPwSAO2y+x4uT-X=EZfaxoO7d9MM0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <8012307d-b23b-4604-b8fb-7851de577b06n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.295.1617022649.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8Ys_rk8Y4mwZzwp2td0QuH4kWf7HGQ3eANDv8_0bV8cvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d572fc8-07d5-4a44-a3dd-d93db5845826n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.296.1617027526.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CACFDE8ZwYXctJw=_i4v30vauG-0djGx8EGmX0_LqDFZ1==stng@mail.gmail.com>
 <be22093e-3b64-4c47-9fd2-7f0a7c7cde90n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.298.1617036998.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <CAGGBd_qcDCiCAwoz-Awa0fvJhbrd2BimuN0wsFS0M-VLAsjOLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8dfdd577-a813-48f4-afc4-bfa22e086711n@googlegroups.com>
 <mailman.325.1617142790.4974.python-list@python.org>
 <89cf74ea-810e-4522-bf01-305a290b51e0n@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <151c52f0-a725-b13d-8352-e9fed8c2eb21@btinternet.com>



On 31/03/2021 09:35, Alexey wrote:
> ?????, 31 ????? 2021 ?. ? 01:20:06 UTC+3, Dan Stromberg:
>>
>> What if you increase the machine's (operating system's) swap space? Does
>> that take care of the problem in practice?
> I can`t do that because it will affect other containers running on this host.
> In my opinion it may significantly reduce their performance.
Probably still worth trying.? Always better to measure than to guess.
Rob Cliffe

From alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar 31 20:29:45 2021
From: alan.gauld at yahoo.co.uk (Alan Gauld)
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 01:29:45 +0100
Subject: Horrible abuse of __init_subclass__, or elegant hack?
In-Reply-To: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPTjJmqxfbvdfNH=B=LHWEy=ZKe3_MH0WYRAfzqKaZfh1iW4dQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <s4345p$sn$1@ciao.gmane.io>

On 01/04/2021 00:14, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On a scale of 1 to "submit this to The Daily WTF immediately", how bad
> is this code? :)

The only worthwhile test of code quality is whether a new member
of the team, competent in the language but not an expert can
understand the code in two readings or less. If they can it's
good enough. Maintenance is always the highest cost in any
significant project so good code must be maintainable.

In this case I'd venture they'd encounter init_sublass() for the
first time, do some research and on the second reading make sense
of it. So, it's good to go.

Whether it's an optimal design or not is a different matter.
There's always more than one way to do it.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos