[Pythonmac-SIG] What is the future of Python on OSX?

[Kevin Ollivier]

On Friday, September 6, 2002, at 04:23  PM, Bugbee, Larry wrote:

> My 2 cents...
>
> As developers for developers we can do pretty much what we want for the
> installation, but if we expect mere mortals to run the stuff we 
> develop, we
> need to have an installation that is simple to understand, easy to use, 
> and
> complete.  The typical user will not be in a position to understand all 
> the
> dependencies, or go through any screwy procedures to get something to 
> work.

> I therefore submit the OSX Python installation of GUIs should:
>
>   - have no dependencies.  A single installation should
>     install all that is required beyond that provided by
>     the vendor.  (I know this will be point of contention,
>     but the end user really doesn't care about our problems.)

When I'm creating a GUI app for end users, for Windows I use a tool like 
McMillan's Installer program to build all the dependencies into one 
directory and create a binary version of the script, which I then 
package as an installer. (Installer works on Linux as well, and the Mac 
OS X equivalent, called "BuildApplication", I believe is in 
development.) The end user doesn't even know that Python was used to 
develop the application, unless they care to read the license or check 
the "About" box.

In fact, IMHO, end users should not have to separately install Python at 
all. It should be somehow bundled or incorporated, along with any 
dependencies, into an  application's installer. However, I don't think 
it should be the responsibility of the Python developers, or the 
third-party developers, to ensure that everything a vendor's application 
needs is included within Python. It should instead be the responsibility 
of the vendor themselves.

>   - install the same GUI interfaces included in the
>     standard installations of another platforms.  GUI
>     apps should run on OSX just as they would on Linux
>     or Windows.  For now this includes Tkinter.  When
>     wxPython becomes part of the standard install on
>     any platform, it should become standard on all.

I would really, really like to see wxPython become a standard GUI for 
Python. I think it is quite usable and powerful, provides a native look 
and feel, gives good performance, and now it does run on all major 
platforms. My guess is, however, that it hasn't been included for size 
reasons. Anyone else have more info on this?

>   - properly support the native look and feel.  ...as is
>     the case on all other platforms.  In this case, Aqua.

> The dependencies issue is a tough one.  If the installer cannot or does 
> not
> install all that is required, the installer should at least alert the 
> user
> as to what is missing and give a clue as to what to do.  ...and the 
> answer
> should be simple enough for them to understand and do correctly.
>
> Not to flame anybody, but in the long run I'm not keen on using X on OSX
> unless it is supported by Apple.  Likewise, I'm not too keen on 
> installing
> Tcl to enjoy Tkinter.  Those may be a luxuries we cannot support today, 
> but
> perhaps we should recognize them as goals?  ...and whatever the answer, 
> it
> should be the same for all platforms.
>
> At the end of the day, if our end users cannot do a simple install and 
> get
> all that is needed to run our Python apps, they won't be running our 
> apps on
> OSX.

I think we're already mostly there, except it is up to the vendor to 
ensure that the users get an easy installation experience. (And that is, 
IMO, how it should be.) I actually do have a single-file, 
point-and-click, installer for my OS X wxPython app. It's a bit large 
right now (32 MB Gzipped) because it installs Python, wxPython and 
PyXML, but it's easy and painless. No X hassles, uses Aqua, and works 
just like the Windows/Linux counterparts. Very nice. =) I used to use 
Visual Basic, and believe it or not, I have a lot less troubles building 
an easy, complete installer with Python than with VB.

Thanks,

Kevin

> It is that simple.
>
> ...ahhhh, mebbie 3?
>
> Larry
>
>>>> What would you like? I'm still very interested in working on Tkinter.
>>> Well, as long as you asked:
>>>
>>> I'd like to see a Python cross-platform GUI solution that does not
>>> depend on installing fragments of X-windows on my Mac OS X system.
>>>
>>> Can Aquatk do that, yet?  Will it ever?
>> Not sure about AquaTK, but wxPython already does a pretty decent job of
> it!
>
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