[Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies
Jon Schull
jschull at digitalgoods.com
Sun Feb 13 15:23:30 CET 2005
> Open source developers work on whatever they want or need to work on,
> so the particular problems you have will get solved when someone with
> the time, skill, and motivation to do so decides to scratch that itch.
> If you want to speed this process along, you have a few options:
>
> - Persuade a suitable developer to work on the problem areas you have
> (usually with money or a job)
> - Fix the problems you have yourself (hey, at least you CAN)
> - Deal with it as-is
>
> .. beggars can't be choosers :)
>
> -bob [ comment in the context of distribution packages but it applies
> to the discussion of IDE chaos as well].
My comment:
(1) In this business, beggars do choose, and they vote with their
feet. If a beginner-friendly IDE is not an interesting problem for
cognoscenti, the python foundation (or some such) should step in, or
the python community should consider the possibility that the
demographics of the development community is in danger of ceding the
next generation...
On Feb 13, 2005, at 6:00 AM, pythonmac-sig-request at python.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. appscript (Michael Terry)
> 2. Re: Zope py2app, some progress (Bob Ippolito)
> 3. Re: Mac User Python Newbies (Bob Ippolito)
> 4. Re: appscript (Jacob Kaplan-Moss)
> 5. Re: Mac User Python Newbies (Robert Kern)
>
> From: Michael Terry <michael.terry at mac.com>
> Date: February 12, 2005 12:02:08 PM EST
> To: pythonmac-sig at python.org
> Subject: [Pythonmac-SIG] appscript
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I installed the appscript module. Can someone explain to me why the
> following script:
>
> #!/usr/bin/pythonw
>
> from appscript import *
>
> peopleRef = app('Address Book.app').people.filter(its.emails != [])
> print zip(peopleRef.name.get(), peopleRef.emails.value.get())
>
> ... errors with:
>
> from: can't read /var/mail/appscript
>
> ... when one from the command line?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
>
> From: Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com>
> Date: February 12, 2005 1:00:00 PM EST
> To: "Roger Binns" <rogerb at rogerbinns.com>
> Cc: Pythonmac-SIG at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Zope py2app, some progress
>
>
>
> On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:26 PM, Roger Binns wrote:
>
>>>> All the example code is in Objective C. Quite simply there is
>>>> far too steep a learning curve to get through these layers be
>>>> it Objective C or pseudo objects in C plus mapping into Python
>>>> land.
>>> Uh, no it isn't. A fair share of the IOKit examples are pure C or
>>> C++.
>>
>> Ok, more accurately the examples that were looking at hierarchies
>> are in Objective C. And I'm sure that working with IOKit, in C or
>> Objective C, once you have done it a few times is quick and easy. If
>> you haven't then a time investment is needed to understand the docs,
>> the examples, the types, actually write code that works, map it into
>> Python etc.
>
> There's a command-line application called ioreg that prints the
> hierarchy. It is written in C, so it's only using IOKit,
> CoreFoundation, and POSIX:
>
> http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/10.3.8/IOKitTools-38/
> ioreg.tproj/
>
> -bob
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Bob Ippolito <bob at redivi.com>
> Date: February 12, 2005 7:04:03 PM EST
> To: Louis Pecora <pecora at anvil.nrl.navy.mil>
> Cc: PythonMac <pythonmac-sig at python.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies
>
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Louis Pecora wrote:
>
>> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>>
>>>> I really like the ability to edit and just hit cmd-R to run the
>>>> script.
>>>> The IDE could use some updating and wart removal. Syntax coloring,
>>>> better scrolling (that's damaged right now), use of scroll wheel
>>>> (if present), a few other interface changes.
>>>>
>>>> In the end it's my tool.
>>>> I don't really understand how your are doing the development. You
>>>> have to jump to a term window to run the script?
>>>
>>>
>>> The source code for the old MacPython IDE is extremely ancient and
>>> nobody has expressed interest in updating it...
>>
>> Bob, Yeah I can see that, although for us non-guru python types who
>> just want a nice language to use it still is very nice. Sad that no
>> one will update it, but I realize all this stuff is on a volunteer
>> basis.
>
> In this particular case, fixing the MacPython IDE to use the newer
> Carbon conventions and facilities would more or less be a rewrite
> anyway, so people have expressed interest in writing an equivalent
> using Cocoa. One such effort is PyOXIDE, though it would be nice if
> more of it was written in Python.
>
> I've personally been working on software that would be extremely
> useful in the context of an IDE, such as an out-of-process GUI Python
> interpreter, loading code into remote processes, creating applications
> and plugins (py2app), determining dependencies (macholib/modulegraph),
> PyObjC, etc. but I'm not currently working on creating or directly
> improving any IDE because frankly, I'm generally more interested in
> the low level stuff and an IDE wouldn't really be all that useful to
> me most of the time.
>
>> Having said that I will lament what someone else on this list
>> recently said about python (he's new to the lingo and wants to use
>> python stuff), namely, everything seems scattered and now more so
>> that the IDE is decaying. What to replace it with?
>
> It'll be replaced when a suitable replacement exists. It's not yet
> clear what that replacement is, or when this will happen.
>
>> I know there are "solutions" since plenty of you are getting stuff
>> done in Python. However, for people like me the need to separately
>> install several packages just to get another one going is daunting,
>> especially since the dependencies are hard to decipher. I am not
>> complaining that the developers don't try to enlighten us, but since
>> the development is only loosely coordinated a sense of fragility
>> exists (at least for me) for any group of installed packages that
>> have to work together.
>
> It's absolutely true that it can currently be difficult to get a suite
> of packages installed if you don't already know what you're doing.
>
> That's part of the reason why I wrote bdist_mpkg. All it takes is one
> person to build a package and package it up, and then anyone else can
> just install it with a download and a few clicks. The process of
> creating a package with bdist_mpkg is as easy as the usual "sudo
> python setup.py install". Honestly, all you have to do (py2app svn)
> is type "bdist_mpkg --zipdist --open" in the same directory as
> setup.py and it will build the package, create a zip file of the
> package for redistribution, and open up the package with the Installer
> GUI. If you just want to install it, you can just type "bdist_mpkg"
> which will do the same, minus the creation of the zip file.
>
> Detection of or downloading dependencies for packages are not solved
> by this, largely because there IS NO STANDARD for declaring them (not
> even a de-facto one, though there is ongoing work in this area), so it
> is the "maintainers" job to do it by hand. However, it would be
> entirely possible to build an "Enthought Python" type distribution for
> Mac OS X using these facilities as-is. At least one person is
> interested in creating such a distribution
> <http://www.scipy.org/wikis/featurerequests/MacEnthon>, but it's not
> ready yet as far as I know. I am hosting several packages built using
> this system <http://undefined.org/python/packages.html> and that list
> will grow whenever I have the need or when someone else packages
> something and contributes it. I do, of course, reserve the right to
> stop maintaining this whenever I no longer have the time or interest
> to do so.
>
> Eventually a better system will exist, whether that's some combination
> of PackageManger and bdist_mpkg, or something else like Python Eggs
> <http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/PythonEggs>. Unfortunately,
> for the most part, the people that are currently working on these
> systems don't really have an immediate need for them, so it's not an
> area of rapid development.
>
>> Where I'm going with this is that I am torn between my love for the
>> Python language (the best I've ever used) and my needs to get work
>> done (I do numerical work in my scientific research) without spending
>> a lot of time and energy maintaining the software environment.
>> I'm not sure how to cure this. If there is a cure. It may be
>> endemic to open source. I sense that for developers its just part of
>> the job and maybe even enjoyable while for potential users like me it
>> is a sad frustration.
>>
>> Just a view from the users' side. Thanks for letting me vent.
>
> Open source developers work on whatever they want or need to work on,
> so the particular problems you have will get solved when someone with
> the time, skill, and motivation to do so decides to scratch that itch.
> If you want to speed this process along, you have a few options:
>
> - Persuade a suitable developer to work on the problem areas you have
> (usually with money or a job)
> - Fix the problems you have yourself (hey, at least you CAN)
> - Deal with it as-is
>
> .. beggars can't be choosers :)
>
> -bob
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jacob Kaplan-Moss <jacob at jacobian.org>
> Date: February 12, 2005 7:04:52 PM EST
> To: pythonmac-sig at python.org
> Cc: Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] appscript
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2005, at 11:02 AM, Michael Terry wrote:
>> I installed the appscript module. Can someone explain to me why the
>> following script:
>>
>> #!/usr/bin/pythonw
>
> Michael --
>
> It's because pythonw is a script itself; bash doesn't like #! lines to
> use other scripts. It's easily enough fixed, though; just use:
>
> #!/usr/bin/env pythonw
>
> and you should be fine.
>
> Jacob
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Robert Kern <rkern at ucsd.edu>
> Date: February 13, 2005 5:30:58 AM EST
> To: pythonmac-sig at python.org
> Subject: Re: [Pythonmac-SIG] Mac User Python Newbies
>
>
> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> However, it would be entirely possible to build an "Enthought Python"
>> type distribution for Mac OS X using these facilities as-is. At
>> least one person is interested in creating such a distribution
>> <http://www.scipy.org/wikis/featurerequests/MacEnthon>, but it's not
>> ready yet as far as I know.
>
> All the packages in the main list build and install cleanly. Now I'm
> working on packaging up the documentation for each package, and
> unfortunately, Real Life annoyances are taking up too much time. Maybe
> next week there will be a beta release.
>
> --
> Robert Kern
> rkern at ucsd.edu
>
> "In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
> Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
> -- Richard Harter
>
>
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jon Schull, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Information Technology
Rochester Institute of Technology
102 Lomb Memorial Drive
Rochester, New York 14623
schull at digitalgoods.com 585-738-6696
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