[Pythonmac-SIG] New Page, first proposal

Charles Hartman charles.hartman at conncoll.edu
Thu Feb 9 00:14:12 CET 2006


On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:01 PM, Louis Pecora wrote:

> Charles Hartman wrote:
>> I'm afraid that you're right about this, and I think it's the  
>> biggest  obstacle to the project of getting (non-Unix) Mac users  
>> interested in  Python when they go looking for a language, or just  
>> looking to get  started on programming.
>>
>> Does the old PythonIDE come with OSX's Python?
>>
>> I really feel -- do people really think I'm wrong about this? --  
>> that  even PythonIDE, limited as it is, is a better beginners'   
>> recommendation than the Terminal.
>>
>> The trouble with the Terminal -- from the point of view of the  
>> dyed- in-the-wool Mac user I'm talking about -- is twofold:
>> 	diverted from your enthusiasm for learning Python, you have to  
>> learn  a new
>> 		operating system interface ("how do I see what folder I'm in  
>> and  what files
>> 		are in it?"); and
>> 	you can get yourself into trouble. ("I had to learn sudo to do  
>> X,  and it's great,
>> 		and now I'm going to try . . .")
>> This is why people are afraid of Terminal, and the fear isn't   
>> *totally* irrational.
>>
>> Charles
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yes, you have a point as does Chris.  We will not solve this now  
> since, as Chris says, the best solution is a good working GUI- 
> IDE.   I have not tried to use the old MacPython IDE in some time.   
> I remember it started to have some strange behavior though, like  
> jumping twice on one click in the scroll bar.  There were also some  
> path problems that, I think, require a different solution from the  
> Terminal solution.  More confusion?  Maybe.
> Perhaps the question to answer is, how many more people will  
> MacPython IDE lure in and then how many of those will we lose when  
> they find out they _have_ to switch to terminal and learn some  
> Unix?  I know we can only guess this, but if we think the number is  
> small, the Terminal approach will not be so bad.  It's what we are  
> Ultimately stuck with.

But we're not. I never use the Terminal with Python. I use WingIDE  
(can't recommend to beginners because it uses X11). Why should Mac- 
type beginners have a *less* friendly interface than that?

> In addtion you are forgetting that we can have them install  
> TextWrangler (a no-brainer) and then run scripts from there.   
> Almost an IDE in some ways.  I work that way from BBEdit and it's  
> fine.  Write script, hit 'Run.'  Terminal window opens up.  Of  
> course, this does not address an interactive session ... or does  
> it.  I never tried that in BBEdit.  Possible?

I don't think you can do interactive from the BareBones editors. (?)  
Nor is their relation of source file to output particularly  
(graphically) clear. I've done it, but I would not recommend it as a  
way for someone to get started. Terminal is easier. (But:)

> The more I think about it, the less terrible the Terminal sounds.   
> Starting as session there is easy.  Any files saved go to the  
> user's top directory.  A next step is just to show them how to  
> change directories.

I don't think you're completely entering into the beginner's mindset  
-- I mean in particular the beginner who is used to the Mac, never  
did Unix, never did DOS, etc. Yes, it's all easy for you not too hard  
for me, but this doesn't change what I've been saying.

And it's not just Terminal Phobia. It's also a distraction. Learning  
a new language (especially a *first* language, and there's no reason  
Python shouldn't be that) is hard -- hard on the concentration, hard  
on the memory. Learning even a simple subset of UI commands at the  
same time, which have no apparent conceptual connection to the  
problems you're attending to in writing your first programs, makes it  
harder. I just don't see why we need to leave that obstacle in the way.

> Well, everyone should think about it since this is basic to the way  
> the Beginner's section is formed.

You're absolutely right. This is the (*the*?) question that I think  
we need to settle, to some degree, before any organization of a new  
page can make much sense.



More information about the Pythonmac-SIG mailing list