[Pythonmac-SIG] newbie Mac switcher trying to set up django on Intel MacBook Pro Tiger

[Christopher Barker]

Jack Jansen wrote:
> The real problem is when I couldn't care less about package X but I'm  
> really interested in Y, which uses X, and then X forcing me to upgrade  
> it.

Just to make sure I understand -- is this an example of that:

I want to use wxPython (the most recent version). I expect to have to 
install that, but now the website tells me that I need to install the 
python.org python before I can use wxPython. Yes, that is annoying, but....

> Python is in a pretty good shape right now, with well-packaged  
> extension modules being compatible with a fairly wide range of Python  
> installations, but please let's try and keep it that way.

Keep it what way? My experience and reading tells me that if I use the 
python.org 2.5 Universal Framework, I'll get a python that will work on 
OS-X 10.3.9 to 10.5.*, PPC and Intel, AND applications I build with 
py2app will work on those platforms, AND extensions I build with it will 
also work on all those platforms (with the same Python anyway). That's 
the state of affairs that I'm trying to keep. It appears that 
encouraging people to use Apple's python with OS-X 10.5 will break that 
state.

I don't run 10.5, but from what I've seen, it's just introduced 
complexity and questions on this mailing list, a LOT of extra complexity 
for people building binaries to distribute.

Jack Jansen wrote:
> I think this would be a very good idea, even if only from a "political" 
> point of view.

well, yes, the politics are relevant.

> Even though I've been an open source developer since long before the 
> word existed I find that I'm getting sick and tired of the 
> reinvent-the-world attitude that is far too common in the open source 
> community.

I really don't think this is re-invent the world.

> If I am new to Python on the Mac and I've played with Apple Python a 
> little, but as soon as I want to install one little add-on module I have 
> to first replace the whole existing Python with something new (and not 
> directly Apple-endorsed)

This was discussed a lot a while back, mostly on the context of what the 
common Python-on-Mac web sites should recommend to newbies.

http://wiki.python.org/moin/MacPython/PythonDistributionsForMac
"""
Mac OS X comes with a pre-installation of Python, usually one or two 
years old. This can be sufficient for some needs, but the MacPython 
community recommends installing a newer, more capable, version.
"""

seems to be what was settled on then. Maybe Apple's python really is 
good enough to be considered the "default", but I have my doubts. 
Anyway, the reason to make that recommendation up front was that it's a 
lot less bothersome to new users to say:

Want to try python? -- install this, then, when you need any extra 
packages, get them here.

Then to get them used to using the built-in one, but when you start 
doing something "real", you need to go get another one. To use your 
example, far worse than:

"as soon as I want to install one little add-on module I have  to first 
replace the whole existing Python with something new"

is

"after using Apple's python for a while, and installing a bunch of extra 
packages into it, I now discover that it won't work for my needs, and I 
have to replace not only python, but all the extra packages I had 
already installed"

Will that happen? I don't know, but I suspect it will. And frankly, once 
you're downloading and installing one thing, two isn't really a big deal 
-- unless you suffer from very limited bandwidth. OH, and it sounds like 
we're proposing asking new users to install a "Apple'sPythonFix" package 
anyway, so the ONLY difference is bandwidth, and the fact that you're 
not using the version from Apple -- is there really anyone that ONLY 
runs Apple software?

> it's mightily inconvenient. Also note that the chances that the 
> distutils fix or the 64-bit fix are likely to affect me are exactly zero 

Not so. The distutils issue effects you in two ways --

1) it's really not that rare to have to compile things -- and maybe you 
want to use py2app to distribute something.

2) You want binaries from someone else, and they aren't right, because 
they compiled them with Apple's python.


Anyway, I'd love it if Apple's Python really could meet all of our 
needs, so go prove me wrong!

Oh, and one way or another, someone should update that Wiki page for 10.5.

-Chris


-- 
Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
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