[triangle-zpug] UML + AXG -- Re: Plone Jam 3/20/08

Robert Geiger robert at geigers.net
Tue Apr 1 12:24:35 CEST 2008


Thanks for your very thoughtful reply.

I'd be happy to come to a meeting in Raleigh and address this.  There 
are some issues that we could all discuss together in the realm of, as 
you well put it, "secret knowledge" that would help clarify some of 
those issues.

The process is applicable across the board, however, as a way of 
integrating a team and preforming a minimally sufficient amount of 
documentation that supports and facilitates a process that works!

The tool is, in this case, very important to the process and I can 
demonstrate that.  EA is not the only modeling tool, it's just a good 
one that works.  I'd love to use an ArgoUML (Free tool) if it could be 
used, and, again, perhaps together at the meeting, it will become 
apparent if or how that might be possible with people more knowledgeable 
than I about the tool's ultimate possibilities.

So, whoever organizes the meetings, I'm willing to do an hour or so at 
your next Raleigh meeting.  Just let me know.

Best regards,


Josh Johnson wrote:
> I definitely want to hear more about this.  My scope is a lot smaller 
> than yours :), but hearing this sort of success story has a huge impact.
>> The developers were PART of the technical design process from Robustness
>> onward.  Working with the users and analysts, the developers could
>> understand the USER's scenarios very clearly and were delighted to be
>> part of this kind of effort.  They had never done anything like it 
>> before!
> I'm going to assume you mean that the developers had never done anything 
> like working with the users and analysts on the technical design 
> process. I don't think I'm alone (am I?) in saying that I've found 
> myself playing the role of analyst, project manager and developer on my 
> average project (and technical writer, salesperson, graphic artist, ad 
> infinitum... and all combinations thereof). I'm usually very close to 
> the user, since I'm gathering requirements, generating deliverables, 
> taking feedback and supporting the work that I do, usually all by myself.
> I'm very interested in how this works with a lot of people with varying 
> skills, but I'm also very very interested in how this process scales 
> down to a smaller team, or if that's even really feasible.
>> As to the tools,
> This is very interesting, and I'd like to hear more about you're 
> experiences with Enterprise Architect. Has anyone else used it? I also 
> want to hear more about how much the code generation features of the 
> tools helped, and the process (is it used for refactoring like AGX is?). 
> Since EA worked for you, and can do python, I might be interested in 
> putting some effort into getting Zope/Plone code out of it.
> But I'm on the fence right now. I know documentation and modeling are a 
> very good thing. It sounds to me, just from what you're saying here, 
> that the real success story in your case was that you developed a good 
> design process, and it was well received and properly implemented. I'm 
> not sure how much the tools involved really helped. How well did they 
> really help?
> I'm whole-heartedly sold on the idea of modeling for documentation and 
> planning, where I'm unsure is if it's really productive to use it for 
> code generation. And that's especially true when it comes to 
> Zope/Plone.  A zope "class" doesn't work exactly like a class in pure 
> computer science terms, or even in Python terms. And worse, it's not 
> defined like a usual Python class; there's "secret knowledge"  necessary 
> to make it work.
> With that in mind, how can a general purpose modeling language like UML 
> describe something so specific and atypical? That's hard enough; now to 
> take it a step further: How could you reliably use that general purpose 
> language to _generate_ that specific, atypical thing? At what point does 
> it stop being UML and start becoming something else? And then what's the 
> point of using a general purpose language at all?
>> I'd love to come by and talk about the possibilities at the next
>> meeting.  Anybody want to hear more?
> ME! YES! :)
> Thanks,
> JJ


Robert Geiger
919.271.7132 Mobile
888.691.5888 Fax

Have a great day!
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