[Tutor] Re: Linux versions

[Alex. M.]

* Magnus Lyck=E5 <magnus@thinkware.se> [2003-07-03 15:37:15 +0200]:

=20
> I guess the rest of this mail is a bit off topic, since we seem to have
> established that it's quite possible to run Python well on most modern
> Linux distros. Still, I hope you can live with my further comments and
> questions about Debian.

It's not too off-topic :). Debian is to Linux as Python is to
programming languages to some extent. It "fits your head (TM)" :). It is
very logically organized and its develpment process is reminiscent of
of Python's, on a different scale of course.
=20
> At 16:41 2003-07-02 -0400, Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote about Debian
> installation:
> >For someone wholly inexperienced
> >with unix then it certainly will take a while, particularly if you are
> >unfamiliar with your hardware and details needed to configure it.
>=20
> I don't quite agree. Regardless of prior Unix experience, Debian is not
> nearly as easy to get started with as the other major Linux distributio=
ns.
> I'd say it's easier to complete a full Mandrake installation than it is=
 to
> figure out what to download to just get your Debian installation starte=
d.
> Being an expert in korn shell scripting and knowing all the innards of =
awk,
> find and sys V init files doesn't change that.

I have to disagree with you on this one. I went to Debian after some
tinkering with Mandrake and RedHat. I broke those two way too many times
even with all the gui tools they had. Granted I was a newbie, but then I
went to Debian while still being a newbie and did not have much trouble
at that point. Maybe because I had mostly well-supported hardware...
It's been more than 2.5 years since I tried Debian and I still don't
regret the switch. I have it on 3 machines and had no
distribution-related problems for a very long time. Sid (Unstable) is
sometimes in flux, like when they were switching from Python 1.5.2 to
2.0 :), but those occasions are rare and one can easily outwait them by
forcing themselves not to "dist-upgrade" for a few days. Yes, it is
addictive to know that you are running a bleeding edge set of software
packages and gets some people in trouble occasionally.
I think that all the modern distributions are on a fairly equal footing
technically, but Debian has that spirit... like Python :) that just
makes you very comfortable using it. My language is too poor to express
this. I might say Debian feels to me like a "Golden ratio". It is
aesthetically pleasing and subconciously fitting or something like that.

> I have used Unix since the late 80's as a user and admin of SunOS/Solar=
is,
> Apollo Domain, HP/UX, AIX etc. I've used Linux since kernel version 1.2=
.8
> (1994?). I've used Slackware, SuSE, RedHat and Mandrake, as well as som=
e
> FreeBSD.

So you won't have any problems with Debian once you get the base system
going.

> I've tried to get started with Debian a few times, but I always gave up
> before I had a running system. I have several laptops without CDs (one
> doesn't even have a built in floppy--it's external) and it's trivial
> to get Mandrake running on them, with support for the touch screen on
> the smaller one etc. I just make a net installation floppy, and reply
> to some trivial questions. As far as I remember, there's just this sing=
le
> floppy image to get, and I can use rawrite in Windows or the Linux dd
> command to write that to a floppy. That part is identical for almost al=
l
> floppy based linux installs. I've done that when I gor tired trying to
> navigate the Debian site.

> With Debian I've tried CDs I got in a bundle some years ago, and at tha=
t
> time, it was hopelessly cumbersome to select what software to install.
> I'm sure it's better now, but the problem seems to be that the Debian
> project is run by people who are all very involved in Debian and most
> things are trivial once you know them. I bet 90% of all Debian users go=
t
> on-site assistance from someone with prior Debian assistance the first
> time they installed it.

That cumbersomness is hopefully behind. You can very quickly install
"tasks" at the beginning and then just use aptitude, gnome-apt, feta
(very clever), or plain apt-get to get the system you want with the
least hassle.

> I surf to www.debian.org, I rather quickly reach something like
> http://www.dk.debian.org/distrib/floppyinst to get instructions on what
> to do next since I want to do a network install with floppys. Then the
> confusion starts. The link to the files just lead me to a list of mirro=
rs
> full of files, and it's not clear what I need. I'm referred to five
> different manuals, and the manual describing what files I need, "Instal=
ling
> Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 For Intel x86 Chapter 11 - Appendix" list almost 1=
00
> different files, and refers me to yet another manual to understand just=
 what
> I need. All these files are for "current", whatever that means. As far =
as I
> understand, Debian always have three versions: "stable", "testing" and
> "unstable". The currently stable version is called "woody", the current=
=20
> testing version is "sarge", and the currently unstable version is
> called "sid". I assume they also have numbers. But which does
> "current" point to? I know, most Debian people, who have struggled to
> get the hang of this will have a gut reaction to say, "Hang on, this
> is very simple." Well, let me tell you: It isn't. It's confusing. All
> this is just for the x86 files...
>=20
> I'm sure I only need a few of all these files, but I certainly get the
> impression that the Debian team is trying to scare people away, rather =
than
> to attract new users.

Yes, boot floppies used to be the only way and they could be somewhat
picky about the media and such. However, these days there are many other
ways to install Debian. I recently used Jigdo to prepare a bleeding edge
distribution on a CD-R for a friend easily. You could also use the Sarge
or unofficial testing CDs from http://www.debian.org/CD/http-ftp/, or
even a Knoppix CD. The latter option seemed to be gaining a lot of
popularity lately. It supposedly has a good hardware detection and you
can upgrade it to Debian proper lately very simply.

As far as boot floppies go to the
http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch-install-methods.en.html#s-c=
reate-floppy
and download your minimal set: rescue, root, and drivers (if whatever is
needed for your hardware is not on the root already).=20


> I currently have an old IBM 760LD laptop with a P90, 48MB RAM, 810 MB d=
isk,
> a floppy but no CD and a Netgear FA411 PCMCIA NIC that I'd be intereste=
d
> in running Debian on. No X, just a simple text based system with reason=
able
> security where I can run some Python stuff via ssh etc across the net.

I've had a similar one as my primary work laptop for a while. First two
floppies should be sufficient for a net install on it. For example:
.../current/images-1.44/idepci/rescue.bin and
.../current/images-1.44/idepci/root.bin should get you to the boot
system, if I remember things correctly ;). It's been a while since I had
to install from boot floppies.

> Anyone who thinks he or she can guide me through this process is very
> welcome to try. It seems many Python developers use Debian as their=20
> development
> platform, so it's probably a good platform once you've got it running.
>=20
> >As a first recommendation, try Knoppix.  It is entirely cd-based.
>=20
> Can I upgrade this to a current Debian version in a simple way, or
> am I limited to debs made for Knoppix? I'd really only be interested
> to use Knoppix as a more convenient installer for Debian.

It does seem so.

> Is there a way to use Knoppix on machines lacking a CD? Would that be
> easier than other ways to get Debian running.
>=20

If you don't need XFree86, then boot floppies should get you through just
fine. If you don't have either a CD or a Floppy drive than it's a bit
more convoluted, but if you have anything else running on that system
you could do a lasy HDD based instal after tweking the partitions with
Partition Magic or such.

Best wishes,

Alex.

> --
> Magnus Lycka (It's really Lyck&aring;), magnus@thinkware.se
> Thinkware AB, Sweden, www.thinkware.se
> I code Python ~ The Agile Programming Language=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor@python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor