[Tutor] Topic focus of ‘python-tutor’

[Alan Gauld]

On 19/02/15 09:51, James Chapman wrote:

> While MySQL modules are not part of the standard library, consider the
> following scenario.

> skill set, maybe he has a job where building an interface to a database
> would save him and his company a lot of effort, but as MySQL is not part of
> the standard library he's not really sure how to go about it.

If it were a new database he could use Sqlite which is
part of the standard library...
But that's not really the point :-)

> on the tutor list have always been willing to help and offer assistance, he
> thinks, I'll ask there. He asks his question and almost immediately gets
> told that what he's asking is off topic for the list.

Which is exactly the right answer. as a beginner he needs to learn to 
find the most appropriate forum and ask there. Its part of learning to 
program. It should be done politely and ideally we should tell him what 
that other forum is. But any programmer is going to need to learn how to 
research and locate appropriate information resources. It's just as 
important as learning a language, and in that sense it's part of
this list's remit.

One of the things that gives me greatest satisfaction is when I see 
someone who started out on the tutor list migrate to the main python 
list and eventually stop participating on this one. It means they
have progressed as a programmer. Ideally everyone who starts using
this list should, within a couple of years, have stopped asking 
questions here and moved on to another forum (or become one
of the participating 'tutors' perhaps).

> the list description for a minute there. "This list is for folks who want
> to *ask questions regarding how to learn computer programming with the
> Python language* and its standard library." Is the installation and usage
> of 3rd party modules not related to learning to program with python?

Not really. You can learn to program with Python effectively without 
ever using a third party package. In fact in my 20 years of Python I've 
only really used 4 third party packages - PyWin32, wxPython, 
BeautifulSoup and Pil/Pillow. Of these I only really use
PyWin32 regularly. But it depends on what kind of programming you do.

> By responding in that manner, you're discouraging the asking of questions.

No, you are encouraging the asking of appropriate questions, and the 
searching for appropriate groups. A new and important  skill for
the programmer.

> No one should *_EVER_ *be discouraged to ask a question they do not know
> the answer to.

That's true, but the answer may well be, "this is the wrong place to get 
the answer"

> very common on this list and I think we (collectively) could and should
> come up with a better way of pointing people in the direction of
> satisfactory resolution.

If the phrasing can be improved then lets have a go. Pointing them
to a more effective solution should be the aim.

> people else where when the question is outside our comfort zone. OO,
> inheritance and multi-byte string processing, to name a few, are part of
> learning to program but are easily more advanced topics than which MySQL
> module to use.

But they are appropriate to the tutor list because they are about 
learning to program. Specific database modules are not. Generic SQL
or specific SQLite queries are appropriate because SQL is general 
programming and SQLite is in the standard library.

However, if someone wants to delve into deep detail of how a feature
is implemented in Python we would probably point them to the main
list too, since it's not about learning how to program at that point.

> Creating C data structures in python, while part of the
> standard library, is an example of a topic that is probably too advanced
> for this list, and even then, I managed to find someone on this list able
> to help with that topic.

Yes, that is probably borderline, since it is arguably part
of using ctypes. And its true that we do have several people who can 
answer wider questions, depending on the question. But it is still 
better to ask a pool of 100 experts than ask a pool of perhaps 10.
And in particular asking a beginner group about any topic can be risky 
since you often get answers which might work but are not the best
way to do it. (This is a big issue on forums like stack overflow
where you often see horrible hacks presented when a much better solution 
is available.)

> If we discourage people from asking more interesting questions then I
> suspect that many subscribers will stop subscribing and that knowledge will
> be lost.

The knowledge will be on the forums that specialise in those topics. 
That's where it should be. As I said above this list is not in the 
business of acquiring lifetime members, we want people to outgrow it and 
move on. It's a good sign. A bit like children leaving home.

> I subscribe to quite a few programming related mailing lists and let me
> tell you, this one is _BY_FAR_ the most willing to help. That question
> would very likely have been ignored on other "more advanced" lists.

And that's true and we should never just ignore a question. But it is 
quite legitimate to say "ask over there instead"

> Finally, I realise I've offered some criticism but not a suggestion for an
> alternative, so here is an example of a response to a question that would
> be considered "outside the scope" of this list:

> Great question. I know there are many options when it comes to MySQL but
> I've not had any experience with any. Someone else on this list might be
> able to provide a satisfactory answer, but, as the main focus of this list
> is learning to program in python using the standard library you might not
> get an answer, and if you do, the answer might not be very knowledgeable.
> You could try asking your question on forum X or mailing list Y as these
> types of topics are often covered there.

Yes, that's fine, and in line with how I hope we answer most of
the OT queries we get.

-- 
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
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