[Tutor] Create command

[Nadine Mullings]

I was introduced to this "community" through a Google certificate program.

Infrequency of responses does not erase existence and limited participation
should not preclude calling out something shared here that's not right.

High performance, here, represented as frequent responses to inquiries,
does not entitle anyone to be unkind.

Neither does accountability require unkindness. If there are community
standards, state them, and thoughtfully hold community members accountable.

There is no reason to excuse unkindness here unless one of the goals of
this group is to be exclusionary.

Please clarify.


On Thu, Sep 22, 2022 at 8:52 PM dn <PythonList at danceswithmice.info> wrote:

> What is my background to this sort of disagreement?
> (certainly wouldn't claim particular expertise!)
>
> I've been advising/discussing with a group of university staff the
> subject of "community" and how they can establish same amongst their
> students, alumni, and other interested parties. As well as the usual
> mode of staff helping students, and even (more experienced) students
> helping students, we also looked at the opposite side of that
> assumed-relationship. What should the questioner do? How should (s)he
> behave? What should be expected of such BEFORE the first question is
> asked? Is there any point in expecting anything?
> (most popular question for any webinar etc (outside of formal
> courseware): "is this session being recorded?" - despite it being
> mentioned on the invitation, advertising, meeting-notifications,
> whatever! Who reads that stuff? - and why not?)
>
> Secondly, contributing 'here' regularly (cf @Steve, @Nadine, and
> @Dominique appearing for the first time - albeit not recognising the
> names, and only checked back over the last three months)
>
> Thirdly, am currently putting-together a Coding Challenge, and have been
> generously-assisted by one of the contributors to this thread, in-part
> ensuring that I don't 'talk down' or otherwise fail to properly
> appreciate the learner's point-of-view.
>
> With that said, taking a look at the discussion:-
>
>
> On 23/09/2022 06.21, Steve Willoughby wrote:
> > Personally, I think a tutor list should be as friendly to people seeking
> tutorial (i.e. beginner-level) help as they try to figure out Python, even
> if it’s their first experience with programming, while at the same time
> holding firm on our position of offering advice without doing homework for
> them.
>
> Everyone will agree with this statement.
> (and not only to the benefit of "Beginners" - correspondents have been
> know to ask quite 'advanced' questions, seeking a tutorial response)
>
> The "homework" part is a regular theme. Regular correspondents can find
> it difficult to remember that giving a 'no homework' answer to Fred one
> day, is not somehow imparted to Barney the next. Nevertheless, saying
> the same thing over-and-over is irritating - which is (one of the
> reasons) why "Tutor" is separate from 'the Python list'!
>
> The point is that the student has been set a task - and it's not that
> specific assignment! The student-task is to learn. Learning is unlikely
> to occur by copying (plagiarism) or having someone else tell you how/do
> the assignment.
>
> Hence the value of the respondent's tactic: "advice". Trouble is: it's
> often less-effort to give the answer!
>
> There is a student market-place featuring "paper-mills", ie
> organisations which, for a fee, will deliver completed
> student-assignments. Accordingly, there are students who may come 'here'
> thinking that to be the list's purpose (and hence the subsequent comment
> about perhaps asking to be $paid)!
>
> Aside: relevant to assignments and "grading" is the widespread
> availability of AI programming-assistants. Thus, programming
> assignment-completion without "learning" - cognitive by-pass mode.
>
>
> > What concerned me most about Dominique’s request was the thought that a
> teacher was expecting her to complete an assignment without adequately
> preparing her to understand what was needed.
>
> Quite possibly the case. However, is this the only interpretation?
>
> How about: the student didn't pay attention when the teacher explained... ?
>
> (my second job at university was what is now often called a "TA"
> (Teacher's Assistant). The lecturer would brief me about the next
> assignment (and presumably checked that I could answer it myself!).
> Later students would seek assistance. A fair proportion were unable to
> explain the basis of the assignment and/or the lecture topics leading
> into same!)
>
>
> Why would a teacher fail to prepare his/her students?
>
> Assumptions about that might be negative, but there-again, there are
> times when the research-component of an assignment is just as important
> as reaching 'the answer'.
> (not that first-steps-in-Python would be a good time for such a
> learning-technique!)
>
>
> The approach to these sorts of posts may be to (first) ask questions and
> seek more 'background'.
> (yes, some think it rude to answer a question with a question, but you
> know the aphorism about "assumptions", and it'd be a total waste of time
> to disappear on some incorrect 'tangent'!)
>
>
> (Of course, if this was a case of her working on her own to learn Python
> using exercises she found on her own, then bravo for being
> self-motivated and maybe it would be good to start with one of the
> tutorial books or websites that will give a gentle introduction to it
> all up front.)
>
> Ah, so the respondent realised that the circumstances were totally
> unknown and un-stated.
> (an observation of the situation, not a criticism of the person)
>
> Who knows the OP's circumstances?
> Who has the power/responsibility to communicate those to the list?
> Why? Why not?
>
> Asking questions, particularly on a list like this is a skill, ie is
> something to be learned. There are numbers of posts, blogs, and the like
> aiming to encourage 'good questions'!
>
>
> Sometimes such questions come-across as a demand. Maybe that is
> laziness. Often it is a matter of language - many list-members do not
> speak English as their first- or home-language!
>
>
> In this case: «Create a command line tool...» has all the hallmarks of a
> direct quotation of a student assignment - but don't "Tutors" deal with
> assignments? However, no background was provided, eg doing a course,
> which course, what book, what is current topic, etc.
>
> Should the OP 'set the scene' with care? What is the element of 'help us
> to help you'?
> (some even seem to think we/someone here is paid to answer questions -
> which is not the case. Hence, should there be respect for, and how does
> one show respect for (helpful) peoples' time-donation?)
>
> Personally, after asking myself the question: what is the "Create
> command"? (message subject), followed by reading "...command line
> tool..." and later what appears to be a Python dictionary; I came away
> confused by both the (apparent lack of) 'question' and the what/why/how.
> So, feeling over-busy, I was very happy to see @Steve handling things.
> Thanks and credit to you!
>
>
> I didn’t mind that she was looking here for help, although my response
> was to try to point her in the right direction and let her keep trying,
> knowing she’d learn a lot more that way than if I just gave her the
> answer. I hope nothing in that was taken to be negative or condescending.
>
> IMHO you soldiered-on bravely. Well done!
>
> Similarly, don't think the negative vibes were aimed in your direction!
>
> Here's hoping you will contribute similarly in-future, and that there
> may be ideas in this response which will empower your future endeavors...
>
>
> >> On 22-Sep-2022, at 05:42, Nadine Mullings <nmullings1 at fordham.edu>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> This is a listserv that goes out to multiple recipients. I would
> encourage
>
> Trouble is, various posts appear to have been sent directly to
> correspondents and/or to include attachments which the list-server
> strips. Have these list-failings been mentioned? Has the 'missing data'
> been posted?
>
> Also not-mentioned, is that conversations 'here' are not merely between
> participants. There are many others (rejoicing under the wonderful label
> of "lurkers") who read messages in the expectation of learning.
> Accordingly, missing information becomes a disservice.
>
>
> >> those who offer help to assume positive intent and share help in that
> >> spirit otherwise reserve their additional commentary for outside this
> >> chain. It was disappointing to see the blatantly condescending response
> to
> >> this inquiry.
>
> There's an interpretation here too - which may or may not be
> correct/fair/whatever.
> (see also 'language', above! What seems arrogant in one society may
> qualify as normal-expression in another. Many mistake my Socratic style
> of questioning for (my) ignorance - and don't get me started on
> self-deprecating humor!)
>
> Also, actions speak louder than words!
> Walk a mile in ...
>
>
> However, most of us will agree strongly with the first sentence. It is
> very much a truth! How can a 'community' like this exist, except
> enacting a positive rôle?
>
>
> Relationships are two-way (cue: "it takes two to tango").
>
> How does this come-across?
> «I never asked anyone to DO my homework I was providing what I had so I
> could have a better understanding.  Thank you, I will no longer need
> service from you all.»
>
> - what was written was interpreted to be some form of homework, and by
> more than one respondent
> - how does the word "asked" fit into the OP?
> - what was "provided"?
> - what did the OP imagine was the list's "service"?
> - "all" - what have we "all" done to deserve such?
>
> From this it seems unlikely that the OP will return. On the one hand
> that represents failure. On the other hand, reviewing the thread from
> start-to-finish has only left me wondering: what was the actual
> question? and, if/what was the eventual answer? - which means it was
> unlikely to have offered benefit to anyone else either. Another failure!
>
>
> Lots to learn!
>
>
> If there are ways to assist contributors, many of us (who have 'been
> around' for a while) will be happy to advise and discuss.
>
> If the OP would like to try again, this time within the list-server's
> capabilities, and with sufficient information to enable us to better
> help you, I (again, no doubt amongst others) will be happy to help...
> --
> Regards,
> =dn
> _______________________________________________
> Tutor maillist  -  Tutor at python.org
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
>
-- 
Nadine *(she/her)*

Nadine Mullings <https://namedrop.io/nadinemullings>