From stuartw at mts.net Thu Sep 13 08:51:29 2007
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:51:29 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] September meeting
Message-ID: <18153.12881.754021.456344@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Any more ideas for this month's meeting on September 26th?
Any volunteers to update the wiki at http://winnipug.ca for the
upcoming year's meetings? It's easy to do and should only take a few
minutes. When the schedule is stale viewers may mistakenly think
we're inactive.
Stuart.
From scott.greig at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 06:06:08 2007
From: scott.greig at gmail.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 05:06:08 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Suggestions for a future meeting..
Message-ID: <2f4a065a0709140306v28f63f32mcdd296bc14954f1b@mail.gmail.com>
Hey all, i'm a local pegger who's a complete newbie to the Python community,
but I have some experience in other programming/scripting languages, mainly
various incarnations of Basic and Pascal, some nominal C/C++ and i'm
somewhat decent at JavaScript.
Anyway, I think this topic has already been covered, but I would definitely
be interested in seeing an intro to Python programming. I'm currently
reading a couple of intro books to Python, and i'm getting most of what i'm
reading, but as straightforward as Python seems to be, there are some
elements that just don't seem to click with me.
I don't know, I just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. I'm looking forward to
coming out to some meetings though. :)
--
Scott Greig
http://www.scottgonline.ca
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From aklaassen at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:32:24 2007
From: aklaassen at gmail.com (Aaron Klaassen)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 12:32:24 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Suggestions for a future meeting..
In-Reply-To: <2f4a065a0709140306v28f63f32mcdd296bc14954f1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f4a065a0709140306v28f63f32mcdd296bc14954f1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <faa9c35c0709141032y546afa72o52c831447dbdb73f@mail.gmail.com>
I've been calling for the intro meeting for ages, but it never seems to
happen. Of course, I'm leaving town in a couple of days, so naturally you
can all feel free to go ahead with it. /eyeroll
:)
On 9/14/07, Scott Greig <scott.greig at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey all, i'm a local pegger who's a complete newbie to the Python
> community, but I have some experience in other programming/scripting
> languages, mainly various incarnations of Basic and Pascal, some nominal
> C/C++ and i'm somewhat decent at JavaScript.
>
> Anyway, I think this topic has already been covered, but I would
> definitely be interested in seeing an intro to Python programming. I'm
> currently reading a couple of intro books to Python, and i'm getting most of
> what i'm reading, but as straightforward as Python seems to be, there are
> some elements that just don't seem to click with me.
>
> I don't know, I just thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. I'm looking forward
> to coming out to some meetings though. :)
>
> --
> Scott Greig
> http://www.scottgonline.ca
> _______________________________________________
> Winnipeg mailing list
> Winnipeg at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/winnipeg
>
>
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From syd at plug.ca Tue Sep 18 11:40:40 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:40:40 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting room location change
Message-ID: <1190130040.6007.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
This month's meeting was originally scheduled to be in room 2M70, but
the U of W theatre department has seconded 2M70 for most of this
academic year, so we are going to be in 3M59. Same building, one floor
up.
Sorry for any confusion this may cause.
We still need to settle on the topic, too. Stuart suggested a planning
meeting to discuss a larger "Introduction to Python" presentation. I
like that idea very much, but as Stuart also suggested, it will require
some input from everyone to make it a success.
Regards,
Syd
From high.res.mike at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:31:12 2007
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:31:12 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting room location change
In-Reply-To: <1190130040.6007.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190130040.6007.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46F01970.9030502@gmail.com>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> This month's meeting was originally scheduled to be in room 2M70, but
> the U of W theatre department has seconded 2M70 for most of this
> academic year, so we are going to be in 3M59. Same building, one floor
> up.
>
> Sorry for any confusion this may cause.
My mother is in the hospital. I may or may not be there.
> We still need to settle on the topic, too. Stuart suggested a planning
> meeting to discuss a larger "Introduction to Python" presentation. I
> like that idea very much, but as Stuart also suggested, it will require
> some input from everyone to make it a success.
The thing is if we have an annual introductory presentation we can
scoop up people who are considering the language.
> Regards,
> Syd
Later
Mike
From scott.greig at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 06:11:22 2007
From: scott.greig at gmail.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 05:11:22 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] This months meeting?
Message-ID: <2f4a065a0709190311m411efd9eib0b6677a1edcf5b4@mail.gmail.com>
Just out of curiosity, when is this months meeting? I'm interested in
checking it out.
--
Scott Greig
http://www.scottgonline.ca
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From stuartw at mts.net Wed Sep 19 08:18:58 2007
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:18:58 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] This month's meeting
Message-ID: <18161.5042.939499.84484@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Our meetings are always the fourth Wednesday of the month. The
website at http://winnipug.ca says this, but it's calendar is also
horribly out of date. I'll fix that.
Stuart.
From stuartw at mts.net Wed Sep 19 08:42:21 2007
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:42:21 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] September's meeting one week away
Message-ID: <18161.6445.182312.101761@gavel.swilliams.ca>
I'm looking forward to our fall slate of meetings. I expect we'll
have some very interesting topics, we just don't know what they are
yet.
I suggest for next week, September 26th, we do three things.
1. Discuss goals for the group. Do we meet too often? Do we need to
plan farther ahead? Do we want to pick up work on some old projects
such as ldapfs.py? Do we want to start a new project such as offering
a well-publicized introduction to Python to the larger Winnipeg IT
community through venues such as CIPS? What will our next several
meeting topics be?
2. Introduce python to new users in the group. For this I'm happy to
prepare a tutorial. However, I suggest everyone contribute by
answering the question "What is Python?"" I'm not joking. The
python.org website says:
Python is a dynamic object-oriented programming language that can be
used for many kinds of software development. It offers strong
support for integration with other languages and tools, comes with
extensive standard libraries, and can be learned in a few days. Many
Python programmers report substantial productivity gains and feel
the language encourages the development of higher quality, more
maintainable code.
I'd like to hear 3 minute summaries from folks in our user group.
What has been our experience with Python?
3. Maybe talk about metaclasses and/or decorators. I suggested this a
while back. It might provide an interesting counterpoint to a
tutorial - something at the other end of the spectrum from an
introduction.
What are your thoughts?
Stuart.
From mark at parit.ca Sat Sep 22 16:52:57 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:52:57 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] September's meeting one week away - Decorators
In-Reply-To: <18161.6445.182312.101761@gavel.swilliams.ca>
References: <18161.6445.182312.101761@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Message-ID: <46F580A9.1010505@parit.ca>
> 3. Maybe talk about metaclasses and/or decorators. I suggested this a
> while back. It might provide an interesting counterpoint to a
> tutorial - something at the other end of the spectrum from an
> introduction.
I will volunteer to give a half meeting presentation on decorators.
I also agree with spending the other half of the meeting discussing the
"who are we" things you suggest.
From balderas at whtvcable.com Sun Sep 23 20:44:11 2007
From: balderas at whtvcable.com (Chris)
Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 17:44:11 -0700
Subject: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHICkgQi6MVHrTCR8dizOffCgAAAEAAAACzVPppiaF9En5WDIHfIkoABAAAAAA==@whtvcable.com>
I need your help!
I have this problem that I can?t seem to figure out. Can you help? The
problem is listed below, and below it is my code that I have so far.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A wins
five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in the playoffs
in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates the chances of
Team B winning the series. A sample run of the program might look like this:
.
Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series, a 5 game
series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of winning a 51 game
series be?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
import random
SERIES = 1000
game = 0
series = 0
while series < SERIES:
teamA = random.randint (1,8)
teamB = random.randint (1,8)
teams = teamA + teamB
if random.randint(1,8) >= 5:
'Team A' = team
else:
'Team B' = team
game = game + 1
series = series + 1
print 'In %2d simulated series %2d won %2d ' % (SERIES,team,game)
print 'so I estimate there is a',(game / 10.00),'% chance they will win the
series.'
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.25/1018 - Release Date: 9/19/2007
3:59 PM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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3:59 PM
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From scott.greig at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 04:54:30 2007
From: scott.greig at gmail.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:54:30 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Another question...
Message-ID: <2f4a065a0709240154q7a736e2en4d2d9445d51504dc@mail.gmail.com>
Hey all,
Another question just came to mind. Is there a fee of some sort to attend
the meetings, or is it free? Just want to be prepared. :)
--
Scott Greig
http://www.scottgonline.ca
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From syd at plug.ca Mon Sep 24 10:16:36 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:16:36 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Another question...
In-Reply-To: <2f4a065a0709240154q7a736e2en4d2d9445d51504dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f4a065a0709240154q7a736e2en4d2d9445d51504dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1190643396.6077.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Mon, 2007-24-09 at 03:54 -0500, Scott Greig wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Another question just came to mind. Is there a fee of some sort to
> attend the meetings, or is it free? Just want to be prepared. :)
>
There's no fee of any kind. Everyone is welcome. I have added that
information to the wiki:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/WinniPUG
- Syd
From rick at centrix.ca Mon Sep 24 10:27:30 2007
From: rick at centrix.ca (Richard Fillion)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:27:30 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHICkgQi6MVHrTCR8dizOffCgAAAEAAAACzVPppiaF9En5WDIHfIkoABAAAAAA==@whtvcable.com>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHICkgQi6MVHrTCR8dizOffCgAAAEAAAACzVPppiaF9En5WDIHfIkoABAAAAAA==@whtvcable.com>
Message-ID: <6B616127-351C-40E4-8EB5-3C2DA7120CBD@centrix.ca>
Maybe it's just too early in the morning, but I think I see 2
problems here:
- team is never defined
- shouldn't it be team = 'Team A', and team = 'Team B'
?
I'm not too sure I understand your general strategy, maybe more
comments would help. :)
Richard Fillion
e: rick at centrix.ca
p: 204.291.5800
On Sep 23, 2007, at 7:44 PM, Chris wrote:
> if random.randint(1,8) >= 5:
>
> 'Team A' = team
>
> else:
>
> 'Team B' = team
From sara_arenson at yahoo.ca Mon Sep 24 14:19:51 2007
From: sara_arenson at yahoo.ca (Sara Arenson)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:19:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHICkgQi6MVHrTCR8dizOffCgAAAEAAAACzVPppiaF9En5WDIHfIkoABAAAAAA==@whtvcable.com>
Message-ID: <278523.71280.qm@web90504.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Hi Chris,
As someone already said, it would be team = 'Team A' and team = 'Team B', since
you need a variable on the left-hand side of the assignment statement. But
before even getting into that, I think the problem description is confusing.
Problem description:
Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A wins five
times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in the playoffs in a
best of seven series. Write a program that estimates the chances of Team B
winning the series. A sample run of the program might look like this:
P:> chances
In 1000 simulated series Team B won 248 series, so I
estimate there is a 24.8% chance they will win the series.
P:>
Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series, a 5 game
series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of winning a 51 game
series be?
My thoughts:
In the initial paragraph of the problem description, the author writes that
Team A wins 5 times and Team B wins 3 times, and that the objective of the
program should be to calculate the chances of Team B winning a best of seven
series. I assume that a best of seven series means that they play seven more
games, and the team that wins 4 games wins the series.
Question 1: Is the information that Team A won 5 times and Team B won 3 times
during the season even relevant?
Question 2: If it is, then why do you have to simulate any runs with random
numbers? Wouldn't you just be able to say that Team B wins 3/8 of the games in
any particular series against Team A, and use straightforward algebra to
calculate the average number of games it would win in a series of a particular
length (i.e. calculate 3/8 of 7, 3/8 of 5, 3/8 of 51, etc.)? Perhaps I'm
missing something, but I don't see why one would need any randomness given the
prior knowledge that Team B is winning 3/8 of the games.
Question 3: If the initial information is irrelevant, then shouldn't Team A and
Team B have the same likelihood of winning the series? Why would any simulated
runs be needed at all?
In other words, the problem description and sample output seem to contradict
each other. Could you clarify the problem?
Later,
Sara
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
From jscrerar at compuserve.com Mon Sep 24 14:36:00 2007
From: jscrerar at compuserve.com (Jim Crerar)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:36:00 -0600
Subject: [Python Wpg] Fw: python problem - help!!
Message-ID: <000d01c7fed9$c146a7e0$3f0110ac@JIMandELSIE>
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crerar
To: Chris
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
Hi Chris,
The following is my version of what you are looking for:
==========================================================================
# Hockey.py Date: 2007/09/24 Author: James S. Crerar
# Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A
# wins five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in
# the playoffs in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates
# the chances of Team B winning the series.
# QUESTION:
# Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series,
# a 5 game series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of
# winning a 51 game series be?
# ANSWER:
# It looks like the more games in a series the less likely that team B
# will win the series. (If team A wins 5 out of 8 games during regular
# season).
from random import *
winA = 5.0/8.0
nsims = 1000
print '\n CHANCE OF WINNING USING %d SIMULATIONS' % nsims
series = (1,3,5,7,51)
for n in series:
totalA = 0
totalB = 0
nn = 0
while nn < nsims:
games = 0
winsA = 0
winsB = 0
while games < n:
if random() <= winA:
winsA += 1
else:
winsB += 1
games += 1
if winsA > winsB:
totalA += 1
else:
totalB += 1
nn += 1
print '\nFor %d game series:' % games
chanceA = float(totalA)/nsims * 100
chanceB = float(totalB)/nsims * 100
print ' Team A = %5.2f%s Team B = %5.2f%s' % (
chanceA, '\x25', chanceB, '\x25')
raw_input('\n\nCourtesy: James S. Crerar\nPress enter to exit..')
==========================================================================
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris
To: winnipeg at python.org
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
I need your help!
I have this problem that I can?t seem to figure out. Can you help? The problem is listed below, and below it is my code that I have so far.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A wins five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in the playoffs in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates the chances of Team B winning the series. A sample run of the program might look like this:
Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series, a 5 game series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of winning a 51 game series be?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
import random
SERIES = 1000
game = 0
series = 0
while series < SERIES:
teamA = random.randint (1,8)
teamB = random.randint (1,8)
teams = teamA + teamB
if random.randint(1,8) >= 5:
'Team A' = team
else:
'Team B' = team
game = game + 1
series = series + 1
print 'In %2d simulated series %2d won %2d ' % (SERIES,team,game)
print 'so I estimate there is a',(game / 10.00),'% chance they will win the series.'
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.25/1018 - Release Date: 9/19/2007 3:59 PM
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 269.13.25/1018 - Release Date: 9/19/2007 3:59 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Winnipeg mailing list
Winnipeg at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/winnipeg
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From jscrerar at compuserve.com Mon Sep 24 22:49:35 2007
From: jscrerar at compuserve.com (Jim Crerar)
Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 20:49:35 -0600
Subject: [Python Wpg] Fw: python problem - help!!
References: <000d01c7fed9$c146a7e0$3f0110ac@JIMandELSIE>
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHICkgQi6MVHrTCR8dizOffCgAAAEAAAACkYI/88PMBDrbwsGzxTQf0BAAAAAA==@whtvcable.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c7ff1e$b53a7f40$3f0110ac@JIMandELSIE>
Hi Chris,
This is what the code would look like if I had used randint() instead
of random():
==========================================================================
# Hockey2.py Date: 2007/09/24 Author: James S. Crerar
# Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A
# wins five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in
# the playoffs in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates
# the chances of Team B winning the series.
# QUESTION:
# Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series,
# a 5 game series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of
# winning a 51 game series be?
# ANSWER:
# It looks like the more games in a series the less likely that team B
# will win the series. (If team A wins 5 out of 8 games during regular
# season).
from random import *
#winA = 5.0/8.0
nsims = 1000
print '\n CHANCE OF WINNING USING %d SIMULATIONS' % nsims
series = (1,3,5,7,51)
for n in series:
totalA = 0
totalB = 0
nn = 0
while nn < nsims:
games = 0
winsA = 0
winsB = 0
while games < n:
if randint(1,8) <= 5:
winsA += 1
else:
winsB += 1
games += 1
if winsA > winsB:
totalA += 1
else:
totalB += 1
nn += 1
print '\nFor %d game series:' % games
chanceA = float(totalA)/nsims * 100
chanceB = float(totalB)/nsims * 100
print ' Team A = %5.2f%s Team B = %5.2f%s' % (
chanceA, '\x25', chanceB, '\x25')
raw_input('\n\nCourtesy: James S. Crerar\nPress enter to exit..')
==========================================================================
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris
To: 'Jim Crerar'
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 6:35 PM
Subject: RE: [Python Wpg] Fw: python problem - help!!
Thank you for your help. You are the only help I?ve gotten on this Python stuff?
Since I am very new at this I am having problem interpreting the code you sent as it is much more advanced than what I work with?what would the code look like if you only used random.randit(), else, if, ect?? I will understand if you don?t have the time to help me?.
Thank you again.
Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: winnipeg-bounces at python.org [mailto:winnipeg-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Jim Crerar
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:36 AM
To: winnipeg at python.org
Subject: [Python Wpg] Fw: python problem - help!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Crerar
To: Chris
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
Hi Chris,
The following is my version of what you are looking for:
==========================================================================
# Hockey.py Date: 2007/09/24 Author: James S. Crerar
# Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A
# wins five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in
# the playoffs in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates
# the chances of Team B winning the series.
# QUESTION:
# Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series,
# a 5 game series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of
# winning a 51 game series be?
# ANSWER:
# It looks like the more games in a series the less likely that team B
# will win the series. (If team A wins 5 out of 8 games during regular
# season).
from random import *
winA = 5.0/8.0
nsims = 1000
print '\n CHANCE OF WINNING USING %d SIMULATIONS' % nsims
series = (1,3,5,7,51)
for n in series:
totalA = 0
totalB = 0
nn = 0
while nn < nsims:
games = 0
winsA = 0
winsB = 0
while games < n:
if random() <= winA:
winsA += 1
else:
winsB += 1
games += 1
if winsA > winsB:
totalA += 1
else:
totalB += 1
nn += 1
print '\nFor %d game series:' % games
chanceA = float(totalA)/nsims * 100
chanceB = float(totalB)/nsims * 100
print ' Team A = %5.2f%s Team B = %5.2f%s' % (
chanceA, '\x25', chanceB, '\x25')
raw_input('\n\nCourtesy: James S. Crerar\nPress enter to exit..')
==========================================================================
Thanks,
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris
To: winnipeg at python.org
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: [Python Wpg] python problem - help!!
I need your help!
I have this problem that I can?t seem to figure out. Can you help? The problem is listed below, and below it is my code that I have so far.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two hockey teams play eight times during the regular season. Team A wins five times and Team B wins the other three times. They meet in the playoffs in a best of seven series. Write a program that estimates the chances of Team B winning the series. A sample run of the program might look like this:
Are team B's chances better in a 1 game "series", a 3 game series, a 5 game series, or a 7 game series? What would team B's chances of winning a 51 game series be?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
import random
SERIES = 1000
game = 0
series = 0
while series < SERIES:
teamA = random.randint (1,8)
teamB = random.randint (1,8)
teams = teamA + teamB
if random.randint(1,8) >= 5:
'Team A' = team
else:
'Team B' = team
game = game + 1
series = series + 1
print 'In %2d simulated series %2d won %2d ' % (SERIES,team,game)
print 'so I estimate there is a',(game / 10.00),'% chance they will win the series.'
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From stuartw at mts.net Tue Sep 25 22:06:34 2007
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:06:34 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting Wednesday night
Message-ID: <18169.48810.641485.804401@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Remember our meeting Wednesday night September 26th. Remember it's
moved up a floor from last year's venue. See http://winnipug.ca for
details.
I just finished preparing a Python tutorial. I'm also looking forward
to the decorators topic.
I notice, related to the recent security concerns at the U. Winnipeg,
that their home page (http://www.uwinnipeg.ca) mentions bag searches
and suggests you arrive early to avoid delays. I've no idea if that
will be relevant at 7:30 p.m.
Stuart.
From mark at parit.ca Tue Sep 25 22:48:42 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:48:42 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting Wednesday night
In-Reply-To: <18169.48810.641485.804401@gavel.swilliams.ca>
References: <18169.48810.641485.804401@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Message-ID: <46F9C88A.8070802@parit.ca>
> I notice, related to the recent security concerns at the U. Winnipeg,
> that their home page (http://www.uwinnipeg.ca) mentions bag searches
> and suggests you arrive early to avoid delays. I've no idea if that
> will be relevant at 7:30 p.m.
It won't be relevant, the number of people entering the campus that late
is very small, even if they have only one open door and one person
searching it could handle the inbound traffic without delay.
From sara_arenson at yahoo.ca Wed Sep 26 02:33:20 2007
From: sara_arenson at yahoo.ca (Sara Arenson)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:33:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting Wednesday night
In-Reply-To: <18169.48810.641485.804401@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Message-ID: <525001.57184.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Which room is the meeting in? I don't remember where it was before.
Sara
--- Stuart Williams <stuartw at mts.net> wrote:
> Remember our meeting Wednesday night September 26th. Remember it's
> moved up a floor from last year's venue. See http://winnipug.ca for
> details.
>
> I just finished preparing a Python tutorial. I'm also looking forward
> to the decorators topic.
>
> I notice, related to the recent security concerns at the U. Winnipeg,
> that their home page (http://www.uwinnipeg.ca) mentions bag searches
> and suggests you arrive early to avoid delays. I've no idea if that
> will be relevant at 7:30 p.m.
>
> Stuart.
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
From stuartw at mts.net Wed Sep 26 09:28:24 2007
From: stuartw at mts.net (Stuart Williams)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:28:24 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
Message-ID: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Today's Free Press said only students and staff will be allowed on UW
campus today. However, the university's web page has a security
update that gives lots of details but does not say anything about
access limited to students and staff. It also doesn't specifically
mention evening access.
Let's assume the meeting's on, but keep your ears open for updates.
Stuart.
From syd at plug.ca Wed Sep 26 09:56:39 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:56:39 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
Message-ID: <1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Wed, 2007-26-09 at 08:28 -0500, Stuart Williams wrote:
> Today's Free Press said only students and staff will be allowed on UW
> campus today. However, the university's web page has a security
> update that gives lots of details but does not say anything about
> access limited to students and staff. It also doesn't specifically
> mention evening access.
>
> Let's assume the meeting's on, but keep your ears open for updates.
>
> Stuart.
I checked with security a couple of days ago, and they said the meeting
was a go. The PLUG meeting last week went ahead with no problem. I
checked with security again just a minute ago, and they said everything
was fine, with two inconveniences:
- only the front doors of Centennial Hall will be open. All other doors
will be locked.
- everyone will have to endure having their knapsacks etc. searched by
security.
Ahh, the joys of a post 9-11 world! See you tonight!
- syd
From mark at parit.ca Wed Sep 26 11:27:42 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:27:42 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting Wednesday night
In-Reply-To: <525001.57184.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <525001.57184.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46FA7A6E.20806@parit.ca>
> Which room is the meeting in? I don't remember where it was before.
According to http://winnipug.ca/, room 3M59. This is not where me met
before. This room is on the third floor of the Manitoba building.
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 11:32:05 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:32:05 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
<1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> - everyone will have to endure having their knapsacks etc. searched by
> security.
I won't endure that. I'm not a criminal, and refuse to be treated as
such. If that's the ground rules for tonight, then I'll take a pass.
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From syd at plug.ca Wed Sep 26 12:08:24 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:08:24 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
<1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Wed, 2007-26-09 at 10:32 -0500, Scott Balneaves wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
>
> > - everyone will have to endure having their knapsacks etc. searched by
> > security.
>
> I won't endure that. I'm not a criminal, and refuse to be treated as
> such. If that's the ground rules for tonight, then I'll take a pass.
>
> Scott
>
Wait a sec -- I've seen your picture at the post office! You're that
Ubuntu rebel, aren't you? Boy, is Microsoft ever ticked off at you! :-)
Seriously, though, many have complained that the administration's entire
response has been a gigantic overreaction and that it is being used as
an excuse to create a "closed, authoritarian environment". You're
certainly not alone in your opinion. I don't blame anyone for refusing
to show up under these conditions. We've been told that the bag checks
are a temporary measure and will not continue for very much longer,
perhaps only for today and tomorrow. Sadly, the checks are being
conducted on the night that we agreed to meet.
I didn't mean to imply that I approved of or agreed with the measures
taken, only to inform people of a situation which is, at this point
unfortunately, well beyond my control.
Cheers,
Syd
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 12:39:45 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:39:45 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
<1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
<1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FA8B51.9070507@legalaid.mb.ca>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> Wait a sec -- I've seen your picture at the post office! You're that
> Ubuntu rebel, aren't you? Boy, is Microsoft ever ticked off at you! :-)
:)
> ... We've been told that the bag checks
> are a temporary measure and will not continue for very much longer,
> perhaps only for today and tomorrow. Sadly, the checks are being
> conducted on the night that we agreed to meet.
And that's what's so stupid. It's accomplishing nothing, while
simply establishing a precedent that unconstitutional search at a
public institution is an OK response to this sort of situation.
> I didn't mean to imply that I approved of or agreed with the measures
> taken, only to inform people of a situation which is, at this point
> unfortunately, well beyond my control.
Oh, absolutely. I recognize that it's not YOU doing this, and certainly
I don't bear any animosity towards even the security staff who are
"just doing their jobs". But unless people take SOME kind of stand
(not sure that refusing to show up for a meeting's taking much
of a stand), we'll eventually end up like some other surveillance states
that have either existed in the past, or, exist at this moment.
I'll make the following suggestion, and/or promise. As I am a person
who does enjoy a carbonated alcoholic beverage consisting of malted barley,
hops, water, and yeast, and have been known to enjoy pizza-pies as well,
might I suggest that this meeting be moved to the more convivial
Paradise? Or if not, I'll promise I'll be at the Paradise from 7:30, and
people who either finish the meeting early, or, perhaps have a mild sense
of indignation at the door will find me there?
Heck, I might even buy a round!
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 12:50:45 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:50:45 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <46FA8A12.2090904@shaw.ca>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
<1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
<1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FA8A12.2090904@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <46FA8DE5.90600@legalaid.mb.ca>
Bill Reid wrote:
> I agree with both Scott and Syd. But Scott, it is certainly no worse
> then when you fly.
Heh, don't want to turn this into a high-falutin' debate, however:
When I fly, I'm buying a service from a private company, and I know,
in advance, that the ground rules are I may be searched. If I
feel strongly enough about NOT being searched, I am, of course, able
to drive, etc.
However, as a public institution that:
1) I used to work at
2) I pay for with my tax dollars
3) Is supposed to be dedicated to a free exchange of Knowledge
I find it particularly repugnant. #3 bugs me more than anything.
> I do not know what is the best response to the security over-reaction
> since 9/11. The security measures are often not rational.
I'd have no problem with an increased security guard/police presence
on campus. That would be prudent behaviour.
> Scott, I hope you reconsider and show up tonight.
As with a previous post, I may not be on campus, but I'll certainly be
nearby. :)
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From syd at plug.ca Wed Sep 26 13:08:44 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:08:44 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
Message-ID: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
I was at a security briefing for university staff yesterday, and one of
the items being discussed was a system for sending text messages to cell
phones to alert students when some emergency arises. The head of
security said that they were looking at a system that cost $17,000 to
buy and $1000 every time it is used. This struck me as a bit on the
expensive side for what was being discussed, so I set out to show that
it could be done faster and for less. In about an hour using Django and
Python, I had a system that would:
- allow authenticated users to register their own cell phone numbers
- allow an administrative user to send out an emergency text message to
all the phones registered
- allow an administrator to add, edit, and delete phone records from
the list
Can anyone think of something fancy that a $17,000 system might do that
my system wouldn't? I don't know much about how the cell phone system
works, so I don't know what's possible.
Is there some security angle that I'm not getting?
Also, (and I realize none of this is technically python) would sending 7
or 8 thousand text messages jam the system?
Regards,
Syd
From billreid at shaw.ca Wed Sep 26 12:34:26 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:34:26 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Meeting tonight
In-Reply-To: <1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <18170.24184.616475.646690@gavel.swilliams.ca>
<1190814999.6039.16.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
<1190822904.11498.13.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FA8A12.2090904@shaw.ca>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-26-09 at 10:32 -0500, Scott Balneaves wrote:
>> Sydney Weidman wrote:
>>
>>> - everyone will have to endure having their knapsacks etc. searched by
>>> security.
>> I won't endure that. I'm not a criminal, and refuse to be treated as
>> such. If that's the ground rules for tonight, then I'll take a pass.
>>
>> Scott
>>
>
> I didn't mean to imply that I approved of or agreed with the measures
> taken, only to inform people of a situation which is, at this point
> unfortunately, well beyond my control.
>
I agree with both Scott and Syd. But Scott, it is certainly no worse then when
you fly.
I do not know what is the best response to the security over-reaction since
9/11. The security measures are often not rational.
Scott, I hope you reconsider and show up tonight.
-- Bill
From sara_arenson at yahoo.ca Wed Sep 26 14:08:24 2007
From: sara_arenson at yahoo.ca (Sara Arenson)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:08:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FA7B75.7060005@legalaid.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
I disagree. Someone threatened to "shoot up" the university today. I'm willing
to endure a bag search if it means that we're less likely to see another
Virginia Tech. Yes, I know that this was graffiti and may have just been a very
sick joke, but it was still a concrete threat: Sept. 26, shooting. I think it
would have been wrong of the university not to step up security with such a
concrete threat. It would have been irresponsible, negligent, with regards to
our safety. I'm glad to see that the University is trying to prevent a
potential attack, although I'm concerned that there are ways to get around this
bag searching measure, for example, I suppose someone could have stashed a gun
in their locker without anyone knowing.
If these searches reduce my chances of being, quite frankly, killed, I'm fine
with having my bag checked just like everyone else. Though, like I said, I
could see ways that people can do things despite the bag checks... and I wonder
if security is comprehensive enough to cover those. Also, after today, if the
person or people making the threat is not found, we're going to continue to
live in fear. It takes a second to kill someone with a gun, and as far as I'm
concerned, if there's going to be a shooting, we're all sitting ducks.
With the increased security and police presence, even if they'd someone gotten
a weapon into the school earlier, I don't think anyone will try anything today.
That being said, I'm running late, and probably won't go to my afternoon class
because the wait to get in will be too long.
Even after today, with a knowledge that there's someone out there who would
contemplate things like a school shooting, I know that I'm going to worry when
I come to class. I know that I'm going to be concerned that security measures
won't be *enough* in the future.
Sara
--- Scott Balneaves <sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca> wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
>
> > - everyone will have to endure having their knapsacks etc. searched by
> > security.
>
> I won't endure that. I'm not a criminal, and refuse to be treated as
> such. If that's the ground rules for tonight, then I'll take a pass.
>
> Scott
Make free worldwide PC-to-PC calls. Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.messenger.yahoo.com/
From high.res.mike at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:25:10 2007
From: high.res.mike at gmail.com (Mike Pfaiffer)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:25:10 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
Sara Arenson wrote:
> I disagree. Someone threatened to "shoot up" the university today. I'm willing
> to endure a bag search if it means that we're less likely to see another
> Virginia Tech. Yes, I know that this was graffiti and may have just been a very
> sick joke, but it was still a concrete threat: Sept. 26, shooting. I think it
> would have been wrong of the university not to step up security with such a
> concrete threat. It would have been irresponsible, negligent, with regards to
> our safety. I'm glad to see that the University is trying to prevent a
> potential attack, although I'm concerned that there are ways to get around this
> bag searching measure, for example, I suppose someone could have stashed a gun
> in their locker without anyone knowing.
Simplest way to avoid the situation is to take Scotts suggestion and
meet at the pub. The threat wasn't made about that location. This way
the only one of the specifics mentioned which will still remain is the date.
Although I'd like to see everybody again there has been a number of
unfortunate events this month. On top of everything I have been ill for
the last couple of days. Maybe next month.
Later
Mike
From mark at parit.ca Wed Sep 26 16:28:47 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:28:47 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
> Simplest way to avoid the situation is to take Scotts suggestion and
> meet at the pub. The threat wasn't made about that location. This way
> the only one of the specifics mentioned which will still remain is the date.
>
Is this a proposal?
I'll do it this way if others are willing to.
I'll also volunteer to show up early and put signs on the doors for the
old room and the new room directing people to the pub.
From mark at parit.ca Wed Sep 26 16:31:30 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:31:30 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46FAC1A2.3090506@parit.ca>
> Simplest way to avoid the situation is to take Scotts suggestion and
> meet at the pub.
"The" pub? Which one?
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 16:36:04 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:36:04 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
<46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FAC2B4.1030708@legalaid.mb.ca>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
> Is this a proposal?
Like I say, I'll be at the Paradise regardless. C'mon down.
Hacking goes better with Beer anyway, IMHO.
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From billreid at shaw.ca Wed Sep 26 16:39:23 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:39:23 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com> <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FAC37B.1020701@shaw.ca>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
>> Simplest way to avoid the situation is to take Scotts suggestion and
>> meet at the pub. The threat wasn't made about that location. This way
>> the only one of the specifics mentioned which will still remain is the date.
>>
>
> Is this a proposal?
I vote to stay at U of W but will attend another location if that is what is
decided.
-- Bill
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 16:39:31 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:39:31 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC1A2.3090506@parit.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
<46FAC1A2.3090506@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FAC383.80200@legalaid.mb.ca>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
>> Simplest way to avoid the situation is to take Scotts suggestion and
>> meet at the pub.
>
> "The" pub? Which one?
Paradise restaurant:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=789+portage+avenue+winnipeg&sll=49.89942,-97.14074&sspn=0.133129,0.341949&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=addr&om=1
Right at the corner of Portage and Broadway, North side of Portage.
If I might suggest: the Paradise Special pizza is very good.
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From mark at parit.ca Wed Sep 26 16:51:11 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:51:11 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC37B.1020701@shaw.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com> <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
<46FAC37B.1020701@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <46FAC63F.2010808@parit.ca>
> I vote to stay at U of W but will attend another location if that is
> what is decided.
Potential compromise: I could present on decorators at the University,
(it helps to have a projector) then we could all go together to join
Scott at the restaurant to discuss the other things. (user group
planning, python introduction)
Mark
From sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca Wed Sep 26 17:10:51 2007
From: sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca (Scott Balneaves)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:10:51 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC63F.2010808@parit.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com>
<46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca> <46FAC37B.1020701@shaw.ca>
<46FAC63F.2010808@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FACADB.8060201@legalaid.mb.ca>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
>> I vote to stay at U of W but will attend another location if that is
>> what is decided.
>
> Potential compromise: I could present on decorators at the University,
> (it helps to have a projector) then we could all go together to join
> Scott at the restaurant to discuss the other things. (user group
> planning, python introduction)
I'm perfectly happy with that. Or, simply conduct the meeting
as per normal, and if anyone's inclined, meet me afterwards.
I'm good either way.
Cheers!
Scott
--
Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
Systems Department | especially towards the end."
Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
From sara_arenson at yahoo.ca Wed Sep 26 17:13:19 2007
From: sara_arenson at yahoo.ca (Sara Arenson)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:13:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FACADB.8060201@legalaid.mb.ca>
Message-ID: <206223.368.qm@web90506.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
I'm okay meeting in either place. Though for U of W, I think someone would have
to confirm that non-students/staff could get in this evening.
Sara
--- Scott Balneaves <sbalneav at legalaid.mb.ca> wrote:
> Mark Jenkins wrote:
> >> I vote to stay at U of W but will attend another location if that is
> >> what is decided.
> >
> > Potential compromise: I could present on decorators at the University,
> > (it helps to have a projector) then we could all go together to join
> > Scott at the restaurant to discuss the other things. (user group
> > planning, python introduction)
>
> I'm perfectly happy with that. Or, simply conduct the meeting
> as per normal, and if anyone's inclined, meet me afterwards.
> I'm good either way.
>
> Cheers!
> Scott
>
> --
> Scott L. Balneaves | "Eternity is a very long time,
> Systems Department | especially towards the end."
> Legal Aid Manitoba | -- Woody Allen
> _______________________________________________
> Winnipeg mailing list
> Winnipeg at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/winnipeg
>
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
From billreid at shaw.ca Wed Sep 26 17:39:45 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:39:45 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Security at UW
In-Reply-To: <46FAC63F.2010808@parit.ca>
References: <598899.93999.qm@web90511.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
<46FAC026.6090608@gmail.com> <46FAC0FF.90802@parit.ca>
<46FAC37B.1020701@shaw.ca> <46FAC63F.2010808@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FAD1A1.30007@shaw.ca>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
>> I vote to stay at U of W but will attend another location if that is
>> what is decided.
>
> Potential compromise: I could present on decorators at the University,
> (it helps to have a projector) then we could all go together to join
> Scott at the restaurant to discuss the other things. (user group
> planning, python introduction)
>
Sounds like a plan. 7:30 at U of W and 8:30ish at the Paradise.
-- Bill
From scott.greig at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 06:13:56 2007
From: scott.greig at gmail.com (Scott Greig)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:13:56 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Apologies
Message-ID: <2f4a065a0709270313u290d8eb7pf51ff8e32238d2c5@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Everyone,
I'm sorry I didn't make it out to the meeting tonight. I was really hoping
to get there, but some stuff came up that couldn't be avoided.. but I'm
really interested in the Python introduction that was to be shown. Is there
some way I could check out this info?
--
Scott Greig
http://www.scottgonline.ca
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From mark at parit.ca Thu Sep 27 10:33:22 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:33:22 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
> Also, (and I realize none of this is technically python) would sending 7
> or 8 thousand text messages jam the system?
Hmm, the cell phone companies might not allow this many msgs from one
place in a short time.
Perhaps the /value/ in the 17K system is some kind of agreement with the
celluar providers.
If you communicated with the celluar providers you may be able to cut
the 17 K folks out of the loop. Good luck getting through to someone
with that kind of decision making power!
Mark
From syd at plug.ca Thu Sep 27 14:12:30 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:12:30 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 09:33 -0500, Mark Jenkins wrote:
> > Also, (and I realize none of this is technically python) would sending 7
> > or 8 thousand text messages jam the system?
>
> Hmm, the cell phone companies might not allow this many msgs from one
> place in a short time.
>
Your hunch was right. A quick call to MTS wireless services confirmed
that they flag hosts that more than x messages. They didn't tell me what
x was, but they said sending out 2000 messages (a guesstimate of MTS
customers in the student pop.) to the MTS email gateway would be
considered spam and shut down immediately. Considering the fact that MTS
has about 2/3 of the cell phone market and the student pop is close to
10K, we'd be stopped before we got very far down the list.
Interestingly, the tech person did tell me that another less well known
(but still nevertheless public) services is available on port 444 of
text.mts.net. The service is Simple Network Paging Protocol (SNPP) and
it is described in RFC 1861:
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1861.txt
a quick rundown of the commands can be seen at:
http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/snpp.htm
The helpful fellow at MTS even sent me a php snippet that uses the
protocol:
$who = array(?2045551111?,?2045551112?,?2045551113?);
$t = fsockopen(?text.mts.net?, 444);
for($i = 0;$i < sizeof($who);$i++){
fwrite($t, "PAGE $who[$i]\r\n");
$buf = fgets($t);
fwrite($t, "MESS $message\r\n");
$buf = fgets($t);
fwrite($t, "SEND\r\n");
$buf = fgets($t);
}
fwrite($t, "QUIT\r\n");
No problem reading that code, right? ;-)
Luckily python has an SNPP library:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pysnpp/
Now never having used the library, I can't make any pronouncements, but
at least I have the tools to do the job if I'm asked.
BTW, the head librarian sent a description of my demo to the head of
security and some senior VPs and we've already set up a meeting to talk
about developing this in-house.
> Perhaps the /value/ in the 17K system is some kind of agreement with the
> celluar providers.
possibly, don't know that.
> If you communicated with the celluar providers you may be able to cut
> the 17 K folks out of the loop. Good luck getting through to someone
> with that kind of decision making power!
>
>
They assured me that I could broadcast a message to a large number of
MTS customers (rogers also has a public SNPP server) without being shut
down.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts which got me on the right path.
- syd
From mark at parit.ca Thu Sep 27 15:54:33 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:54:33 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
<1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FC0A79.30208@parit.ca>
> The helpful fellow at MTS even sent me a php snippet that uses the
> protocol:
>
> $who = array(?2045551111?,?2045551112?,?2045551113?);
> $t = fsockopen(?text.mts.net?, 444);
> for($i = 0;$i < sizeof($who);$i++){
> fwrite($t, "PAGE $who[$i]\r\n");
> $buf = fgets($t);
> fwrite($t, "MESS $message\r\n");
> $buf = fgets($t);
> fwrite($t, "SEND\r\n");
> $buf = fgets($t);
> }
> fwrite($t, "QUIT\r\n");
>
> No problem reading that code, right? ;-)
No problem. Here is the posix shell + netcat version. (Totally offtopic
on a python list!)
#!/bin/sh
MESSAGE="The sky is falling, run."
for number in 2045551111 2045551112 2045551113; do \
nc text.mts.net 444 <<EOF
PAGE $number
MESS $MESSAGE
SEND
EOF
done
From peter at pogma.com Thu Sep 27 16:07:56 2007
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:07:56 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC0A79.30208@parit.ca>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC0A79.30208@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FC0D9C.7070906@pogma.com>
Mark Jenkins wrote:
>> The helpful fellow at MTS even sent me a php snippet that uses the
>> protocol:
>>
>> $who = array(?2045551111?,?2045551112?,?2045551113?);
>> $t = fsockopen(?text.mts.net?, 444);
>> for($i = 0;$i < sizeof($who);$i++){
>> fwrite($t, "PAGE $who[$i]\r\n");
>> $buf = fgets($t);
>> fwrite($t, "MESS $message\r\n");
>> $buf = fgets($t);
>> fwrite($t, "SEND\r\n");
>> $buf = fgets($t);
>> }
>> fwrite($t, "QUIT\r\n");
>>
>> No problem reading that code, right? ;-)
>
>
> No problem. Here is the posix shell + netcat version. (Totally offtopic
> on a python list!)
>
> #!/bin/sh
> MESSAGE="The sky is falling, run."
> for number in 2045551111 2045551112 2045551113; do \
>
> nc text.mts.net 444 <<EOF
> PAGE $number
> MESS $MESSAGE
> SEND
> EOF
Well, the php version is reading the response codes (though not acting
on any possible error codes), and has the "correct" line endings :-)
Off topic, but it looks like the SNPP protocol is spammer heaven to me.
Peter
From mark at parit.ca Thu Sep 27 16:10:27 2007
From: mark at parit.ca (Mark Jenkins)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:10:27 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC0A79.30208@parit.ca>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC0A79.30208@parit.ca>
Message-ID: <46FC0E33.6060201@parit.ca>
> #!/bin/sh
> MESSAGE="The sky is falling, run."
> for number in 2045551111 2045551112 2045551113; do \
>
> nc text.mts.net 444 <<EOF
> PAGE $number
> MESS $MESSAGE
> SEND
> EOF
>
> done
What I wrote here is actually totally wrong, as I wasn't reading back
the response lines from the server, I never sent a QUIT, and I am
starting a new connection for each message.
From billreid at shaw.ca Thu Sep 27 16:29:24 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:29:24 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: Sydney Weidman <syd at plug.ca>
Date: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 pm
> They assured me that I could broadcast a message to a large
> number of
> MTS customers (rogers also has a public SNPP server) without
> being shut
> down.
Do you know the name of Roger's SNPP server??
Thanks,
Bill
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From syd at plug.ca Thu Sep 27 18:24:12 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:24:12 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 15:29 -0500, Bill Reid wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sydney Weidman <syd at plug.ca>
> Date: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 pm
>
> > They assured me that I could broadcast a message to a large
> > number of
> > MTS customers (rogers also has a public SNPP server) without
> > being shut
> > down.
>
> Do you know the name of Roger's SNPP server?
>
http://www.notepage.net/snpp.htm
snpp.rogerstwoway.com port 444 (not tried yet)
- Syd
From billreid at shaw.ca Thu Sep 27 21:41:34 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:41:34 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
<1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 15:29 -0500, Bill Reid wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>
> http://www.notepage.net/snpp.htm
>
> snpp.rogerstwoway.com port 444 (not tried yet)
>
I think we are mixing about paging and SMS. SNPP is for paging not SMS.
I did not test out the MTS server but the Roger server seems to be expecting a
pager ID not a telephone number. My cell phone number gets an INVALID ID.
[reid at ws ~]$ telnet snpp.rogerstwoway.com snpp
Trying 198.174.233.171...
Connected to snpp.rogerstwoway.com (198.174.233.171).
Escape character is '^]'.
220 Datacomm SNPP Gateway Ready
HELP
214 HELP COMMAND SUMMARY:
214 PAGE ####### - Used to Specify Telephone To Page
214 MESS message - Used to Specify Message To Send
214 SEND - Sends page to Telephone and Message Specified
214 RESET - Clears the Telephone and Message
214 QUIT - Closes Session
250 End of Help
QUIT
221 Ok - Session Closed
Connection closed by foreign host.
-- Bill
From syd at plug.ca Thu Sep 27 23:06:06 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:06:06 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
<1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 20:41 -0500, Bill Reid wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 15:29 -0500, Bill Reid wrote:
> >> ----- Original Message -----
>
> >
> > http://www.notepage.net/snpp.htm
> >
> > snpp.rogerstwoway.com port 444 (not tried yet)
> >
>
>
> I think we are mixing about paging and SMS. SNPP is for paging not SMS.
>
> I did not test out the MTS server but the Roger server seems to be expecting a
> pager ID not a telephone number. My cell phone number gets an INVALID ID.
>
> [reid at ws ~]$ telnet snpp.rogerstwoway.com snpp
> Trying 198.174.233.171...
> Connected to snpp.rogerstwoway.com (198.174.233.171).
> Escape character is '^]'.
> 220 Datacomm SNPP Gateway Ready
> HELP
> 214 HELP COMMAND SUMMARY:
> 214 PAGE ####### - Used to Specify Telephone To Page
> 214 MESS message - Used to Specify Message To Send
> 214 SEND - Sends page to Telephone and Message Specified
> 214 RESET - Clears the Telephone and Message
> 214 QUIT - Closes Session
> 250 End of Help
> QUIT
> 221 Ok - Session Closed
> Connection closed by foreign host.
It's possible that some snpp servers can be configured to relay a page
to a cell phone and others are not configured that way.
It absolutely does work on the mts server. I just tried it for the
library cell phone which is on MTS.
I may have to do some more research for the other providers, but it
seems promising.
- Syd
From peter at pogma.com Thu Sep 27 23:36:06 2007
From: peter at pogma.com (Peter O'Gorman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:36:06 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
<1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop> <cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca> <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca>
<1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
Sydney Weidman wrote:
> I may have to do some more research for the other providers, but it
> seems promising.
Google gives some reasons for pessimism:
<http://forums.canadiancontent.net/mobile-phones/35101-rogers-email-text-changes.html>
<http://www.notepage.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4438>
However Rogers does have a "Desktop TXT" app available for download, so
there must be some kind of API to send text messages to rogers
customers. I'd phone them too, given the reasons for wanting this
functionality they might provide you with something. (They might also
want you to keep anything they provide you with secret).
Peter
From rick at centrix.ca Thu Sep 27 23:46:21 2007
From: rick at centrix.ca (Richard Fillion)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:46:21 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca>
<1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop> <cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca> <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop> <46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca>
<1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <836E5B70-9988-42DB-9FBE-8C284231120B@centrix.ca>
Most phone companies have an OS X dashboard widget for free texting.
That could probably be ripped apart more easily than a real application.
Richard Fillion
e: rick at centrix.ca
p: 204.291.5800
On Sep 27, 2007, at 10:36 PM, Peter O'Gorman wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
>> I may have to do some more research for the other providers, but it
>> seems promising.
>
> Google gives some reasons for pessimism:
> <http://forums.canadiancontent.net/mobile-phones/35101-rogers-email-
> text-changes.html>
> <http://www.notepage.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4438>
>
> However Rogers does have a "Desktop TXT" app available for
> download, so
> there must be some kind of API to send text messages to rogers
> customers. I'd phone them too, given the reasons for wanting this
> functionality they might provide you with something. (They might also
> want you to keep anything they provide you with secret).
>
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Winnipeg mailing list
> Winnipeg at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/winnipeg
From billreid at shaw.ca Fri Sep 28 00:01:24 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:01:24 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
<1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca> <1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <46FC7C94.8040905@shaw.ca>
Peter O'Gorman wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
>> I may have to do some more research for the other providers, but it
>> seems promising.
>
> Google gives some reasons for pessimism:
> <http://forums.canadiancontent.net/mobile-phones/35101-rogers-email-text-changes.html>
> <http://www.notepage.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4438>
>
> However Rogers does have a "Desktop TXT" app available for download, so
> there must be some kind of API to send text messages to rogers
> customers. I'd phone them too, given the reasons for wanting this
> functionality they might provide you with something. (They might also
> want you to keep anything they provide you with secret).
Yes, I originally went with Rogers because of the free email to text message
service. They changed that to sending a text message which says that if you want
to receive email then reply. So the free email message now costs $.15. They also
have a text graphic to enter on their Web site for sending text messages. The
Desktop app that Peter mentioned requires you to log in with a userid which is
associated with your phone number. All text messages are charged against your
phone. Definitely not free.
There are many companies which provide SMS gateways and I think they charge
around $.05 per message depending on volume. They usually have an API for
sending the messages. The advantage of using SMS gateways is that they will
figure out what carrier to send the message to.
-- Bill
From billreid at shaw.ca Fri Sep 28 00:33:27 2007
From: billreid at shaw.ca (Bill Reid)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:33:27 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca>
<1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
Message-ID: <46FC8417.2030607@shaw.ca>
Well we are discussing SMS I feel compelled to have my cell phone rant. I was
very late in getting into cell phones. I got my first phone last summer. Being
use to the Internet and open networking I was flabbergasted at how archaic and
complicated everything is with using cell phones. As we have discussed Rogers
basically lies about free email to SMS. Data is horrendously expensive.
Documentation is difficult to find. Features in phones are disabled. Deciphering
rate plans is almost impossible.
Thank god the phone companies were not involved in developing the Internet. :-)
I know it is sort of an apple/orange comparison but the value I get from my $40
cable connection is huge compared to spending $40 on a cell phone plan. Of
course I only spend $10/month on my pay as you go phone since I can not justify
spending any more.
I guess I am showing my age but annual ring tone revenue exceeding a billion
dollars is incomprehensible.
-- Bill
From syd at plug.ca Fri Sep 28 00:38:15 2007
From: syd at plug.ca (Sydney Weidman)
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:38:15 -0500
Subject: [Python Wpg] Can python save the University $17,000?
In-Reply-To: <46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
References: <1190826524.11498.26.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FBBF32.2090300@parit.ca> <1190916750.11398.18.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<cfc799c96fb91.46fbcc54@shaw.ca> <1190931852.20202.4.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC5BCE.1080902@shaw.ca> <1190948766.5997.8.camel@sweidman-laptop>
<46FC76A6.7030200@pogma.com>
Message-ID: <1190954295.5997.30.camel@sweidman-laptop>
On Thu, 2007-27-09 at 22:36 -0500, Peter O'Gorman wrote:
> Sydney Weidman wrote:
> > I may have to do some more research for the other providers, but it
> > seems promising.
>
> Google gives some reasons for pessimism:
> <http://forums.canadiancontent.net/mobile-phones/35101-rogers-email-text-changes.html>
> <http://www.notepage.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4438>
>
> However Rogers does have a "Desktop TXT" app available for download, so
> there must be some kind of API to send text messages to rogers
> customers. I'd phone them too, given the reasons for wanting this
> functionality they might provide you with something. (They might also
> want you to keep anything they provide you with secret).
>
> Peter
Well, the old adage about security by obscurity holds. If MTS had
concerns about people abusing the system, they could very easily require
some kind of authentication before connecting to the SNPP service. Just
keeping it a secret won't hold the script kiddies at bay for very long.
(including yours truly -- a white hat script kiddie :-)
I did have qualms about giving out the information here. But the person
I talked to said nothing about an NDA or anything else. If they want me
to be quiet about it, they'll have to start by muzzling their own
employees, or at least having packs of rabid lawyers close at hand
during every phone conversation.
Thanks for the heads up, though.