Some of the pypa people have been discussing beginning a "packaging-user" mailing list. - It would be open to *any* packaging or install user issues. - It would be on python.org - pip/virtualenv would use it instead of our "virtualenv" list - Other projects could(would) use it too: Setuptools (old and new), Distribute, wheel, buildout, bento? etc... I think python users would appreciate the simplicity of this, and the support would be better too I think. distutils-sig would maintain it's current focus as a place for development discussions. thoughts? Marcus
On 29/03/2013 21:28, Marcus Smith wrote:
distutils-sig would maintain it's current focus as a place for development discussions.
thoughts?
-1. We want less lists, not more. I'd say just roll it all into distutils and be done with it. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 5:28 PM, Marcus Smith <qwcode@gmail.com> wrote:
Some of the pypa people have been discussing beginning a "packaging-user" mailing list.
- It would be open to *any* packaging or install user issues. - It would be on python.org - pip/virtualenv would use it instead of our "virtualenv" list - Other projects could(would) use it too: Setuptools (old and new), Distribute, wheel, buildout, bento? etc...
I think python users would appreciate the simplicity of this, and the support would be better too I think.
But all the developers who actually give support are here, aren't they? Certainly I do setuptools support here, and Jim does buildout support. And all the people already being sent here from other sources aren't going to stop being sent here.
distutils-sig would maintain it's current focus as a place for development discussions.
It's actually mostly a support forum that has periodic surges of development discussion. Granted, the current development surge is bigger and longer than any that have happened in a while. ;-)
We want less lists, not more.
the basic math would be adding "packaging-user" and dropping "virtualenv", so no more lists on the whole. if you're not a virtualenv subscriber, then yes, it's one more list, but honestly, this isn't about the active *-sig people, but the users. see below.
it's actually mostly a support forum that has periodic surges of development discussion
the charter sounds like a dev list, and I think the surge is here to stay until the packaging house in order. I think distutils-sig only kinda works now as both, because most of the user traffic doesn't end up here, but rather goes to virtualenv, SO, Python-list, etc... But the problem with those lists, is the lack of certainty about answers across the whole space. If we: - properly described distutils-sig list in it's charter as a user list too - *and* announced it as such, on "Python-announce" - *and* made it prominent in the new "Python Packaging User Guide" (which is in the works; another thread for that later) Then: I think the reality of having distutils-sig serve both would sink in as not ideal. possibly not? The dev/user list distinction is pretty common, so my instinct is to follow that rut here too. my motivation is to have a better "joe user" story. **** currently (slightly exaggerated for fun) **** - joe encounters confusing pip error (due to pip being built on shaky packaging ground) - joe: "well, there's the pip user list called 'virtualenv'.". - co-worker: "that error could actually be due to Setuptools, that pip uses I think; pip's support for Setuptools is best effort I hear." - joe: "hmm, Setuptools hasn't been released for awhile. it's website says to use 'distutils-sig', but that sounds like a dev list. maybe that info is outdated." - co-worker: "oh, you're on python3, so I think you're using Distribute. there's some way to tell, but I'm not sure" - joe: "Distribute lists distutils-sig for 'Feedback and getting involved', hmm." - joe" "the distutils-sig archive sure looks like an active dev list. I might be interfering with silly user questions." - co-worker: "maybe try the 'Fellowship of the Packaging' list; that sounds friendly. but wait, it looks dead." - joe: "let me just post to Stack overflow" - co-worker: "hey, check it out, somebody just responded to your post" - joe: "I guess I'll wait a few days, and see if the answer gets votes, so I can tell if it's right or not" **** what I want **** - joe encounters error... - joe: "I'll just post to 'packaging-user'. everybody uses that now and gets answers they can usually trust." - joe: "If I want to follow dev discussions, I can join 'distutils-sig', but that's more pain than I want to see" Marcus
On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 12:51 PM, PJ Eby <pje@telecommunity.com> wrote:
It's actually mostly a support forum that has periodic surges of development discussion. Granted, the current development surge is bigger and longer than any that have happened in a while. ;-)
FWIW I've been a lurker on this list for a while, and the first time I saw someone ask a support question I expected them to get shut down. brandon
+0 I think a "packaging user" list is more discoverable for people new to Python who have questions. But the list will only really be of use if the developers of current tools join the list and provide support there. Paul
I think a "packaging user" list is more discoverable for people new to Python who have questions.
that sounds like a +1, kinda
But the list will only really be of use if the developers of current tools join the list and provide support there.
yes, packaging devs and "experts" would be needed to have good answers. that's why I was sending this out, to get a sense if people would jump on the idea. but that's not really happening so far. : ) Marcus
participants (5)
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Brandon W Maister -
Chris Withers -
Marcus Smith -
Paul Moore -
PJ Eby