I'd like to make another plug for including this title on the edu-sig home page: http://www.skylit.com/mathandpython.html Ian thought it was too much a hybrid of CS and math, not an elegant amalgamation, though I don't have has remarks in front of me at the moment. Steve was gonna get back to us. Andre thought he might work it onto the page... That was all months ago by now, so it make sense to raise the issue again, as the title does break new ground in some ways, has claim to being a math teaching book, yet uses a computer language (one most of us know). 'Concrete Mathematics' and 'The Art of Computer Programming' are both math books of course, amenable to a "through programming" approach. Jsoftware folks implemented the former in J, whereas the latter is in MMX already. Another hot button issue in Portland these days is whether families have the right to demand a PDF version of any assigned textbook, versus a hardcopy edition. We have lots of tree huggers around here, worried about "green" and unsustainability. To quote one of my colleagues (from her blog): "We need the text book companies to print thousands of copies of new textbooks every year, not so the authors can make money, though they make a little, but so the companies can make money... Do some central planning, and if the government can't do that without going through corporations, then it is time to [do it ourselves]". Anyway, just wanted to re-raise that as well. I mostly do my computer / technical reading on Safari, have no problem with recycling already printed books, have no problem with small press runs. But I can see where truck loads of spanking new 400 page math books, hot off the press, none containing any computer programming to speak of, let alone Mites, Sytes or Kites (honeycomb stuff, important to gnu-bees), would provoke a crisis in conscience for our more ethical. This is the kind of thing 15 year olds talk about. They're suspicious of adults who can't follow their logic (about saving trees), undermines adult authority to not have a response. So do we all favor an "opt out" option for hard copy textbooks? Say aye? Say nay? Kirby