RE: [Edu-sig] Learn to Program in Ten Years

On Sun, 2004-12-26 at 16:24 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote:
Whatever happened to the scenario in which VPython gets a big grant to improve a great deal? Didn't that pan out? It'd seem that one broad category that could use some work, in the VPython side, is "plays well with others."
Well, you're kind of setting me up here. Yes VPython has a substantial NSF grant. Substantial enough to fund Python 3.0, or at least a good ways towards it. But despite the best efforts of the guy actually doing the coding - Jonathan Brandenmeyer - it is still a Bruce project. And though Bruce thought nothing of pressing Guido to accommodate his needs as to Idle issues and division operators, I don't think he sees any need to accommodate anything or anyone else. On the immediate issue we are discussing, Sherwood makes no bones about the fact he sees the interactive prompt as a useless feature. His "data" supports the fact that no one gives a shit about it. Which is why he chooses to have his distribution overwrite a standard Python library file to get his way as to the default start-up of Idle. Asking Bruce to spend a nickel of his funding to try to get this problem solved is useless. In short, Bruce's interest in VPython is narrow. A good part of that interest, I am afraid, may have been satisfied when he *got* his funding. Not a nice thing to say, but the man has gotten to me, big time. Art
I wonder what, if anything, could be done from the VPython side to make it friendlier, without it losing it's uniqueness. Understanding that part of that uniqueness is the fact that the display is just implicitly there. As you know,
I have the same question.
import visual visual.sphere()
is sufficient to create not only a sphere() but an entire rendering context and display for itself. I am guessing that is accomplished in ways other programs needing to cooperate with VPython tend not to like.
I bet you're right.
I am at a loss to chip in to finding a solution. But a weekend spent trying to get deeper into boost::python and GTK indicates some real interest in the problem, and at least good intentions ;)
Art
Yeah, s'been an interesting and productive thread. Thanks for keeping it turning.
Kirby
F

In short, Bruce's interest in VPython is narrow.
A good part of that interest, I am afraid, may have been satisfied when he *got* his funding.
Not a nice thing to say, but the man has gotten to me, big time.
Art
OK. Unlike in the Disney case (Alan Kay, Squeak, SmallTalk et al), I'm not moved to define my own position vis-à-vis the VPython enterprise. I've not investigated, don't have a lot of eggs in that basket. I reserve the right to see the matter differently in future, but I think you're certainly entitled to the judgments you've reached (you care a lot about these things, and have a definite stake, having done lots of work on Pygeo), plus I'm in no mood to play defense lawyer for your opponent. I'm sure he's quite capable of defending himself (or, if not, then not).[1] Also, I don't think it's off-topic or mean-spirited to share assessments such as yours above on edu-sig. I'm not a listowner and don't set policies, but I think the exchange of opinions, in a frank and open manner, is healthy. I wouldn't condone a stupid flame war, but as long as we're talking over issues of substance, that have some bearing on Python in the education sphere, I think it's topical. Just my opinion. Self-servingly, I'm thereby excusing some of my own outbursts as well. But I'm also opening the door to others, and saying they shouldn't fear retribution in the form of being banned or ostracized. Again, I say this in no particularly official capacity -- just giving my sense of what feels appropriate to me. Others may differ (and I welcome their alternative takes). Kirby [1] Aside: that reminds me of a funny story. I asked my daughter to take out the music CD in the player and try another one that was more topical (more Christmas-y in this case). Then I said: "but if we don't like it, we might ask you to take it out too" -- maybe implying that she might get some blame for another bad choice. She said, referring to the CD: "hey, I'm not trying to be this thing's lawyer or anything." I thought that was funny. She's only 10.
participants (2)
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Arthur
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Kirby Urner