Updated message catalogs needed for Mailman 2.1.10
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If you are a language champion or otherwise responsible for a Mailman translation, please get the updated 2.1.10 message catalog for your language to me as soon as possible. Mailman 2.1.10 has been in beta for 3 months now, and I have received very few updated translations. I am planning to release what I hope will be the final beta release of 2.1.10 in a few days. This would be a release candidate rather than a beta if I had more updated translations. Thank you for your understanding. - -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFH0xyZVVuXXpU7hpMRAo1aAKDYiS/wpexcQJqNPi+d0GLK6o2x0gCfTo/Z 24bhI96yktpfx97nDC3XH48= =PH4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Bu çalışmada Türkçe Mailman için girişimde bulunan var mı? Bu listede Türkiye'den kimler var? Bu konuda işbirliği yapabilir miyiz? (An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.) ---------------- Liste Yoneticisi http://e-list.cc.metu.edu.tr http://e-liste.bidb.odtu.edu.tr On Sat, 8 Mar 2008, Mark Sapiro wrote: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 If you are a language champion or otherwise responsible for a Mailman translation, please get the updated 2.1.10 message catalog for your language to me as soon as possible. Mailman 2.1.10 has been in beta for 3 months now, and I have received very few updated translations. I am planning to release what I hope will be the final beta release of 2.1.10 in a few days. This would be a release candidate rather than a beta if I had more updated translations. Thank you for your understanding. - -- Mark Sapiro <mark@msapiro.net> The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFH0xyZVVuXXpU7hpMRAo1aAKDYiS/wpexcQJqNPi+d0GLK6o2x0gCfTo/Z 24bhI96yktpfx97nDC3XH48= =PH4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Mailman-announce mailing list Mailman-announce@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-announce Member address: listeyon@metu.edu.tr Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-announce/listeyon%40metu.edu....
On 3/10/08, liste yoneticisi wrote:
(An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.)
This is a question that is better asked on the mailman-i18n mailing list. That's where all the Internationalization folks should be hanging out. -- Brad Knowles <brad@shub-internet.org> LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu>
On 11/03/2008, at 12:11 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
On 3/10/08, liste yoneticisi wrote:
(An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.)
This is a question that is better asked on the mailman-i18n mailing list. That's where all the Internationalization folks should be hanging out.
I'd definitely vote for Pootle. It's free software, and gives you complete control of access, plus syncing with source control (including bzr, AFAIK). Its developers are extremely responsive to admin or user needs. from Clytie Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mar 12, 2008, at 5:07 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
On 11/03/2008, at 12:11 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
On 3/10/08, liste yoneticisi wrote:
(An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.)
This is a question that is better asked on the mailman-i18n mailing list. That's where all the Internationalization folks should be hanging out.
I'd definitely vote for Pootle. It's free software, and gives you complete control of access, plus syncing with source control (including bzr, AFAIK). Its developers are extremely responsive to admin or user needs.
Hi Clytie, So would you recommend that we run our own Pootle server or use one of the public Pootle servers that already exist. The former is problematic since we don't really have the resources or machines to host such a server. I looked at the official Pootle server documentation and while they list a few projects that they host, they don't appear to have formal published policy about how they accept new projects. I would guess that they'd be likely to accept a GPL'd project like Mailman. The other listed public Pootle servers seem to be focused on particular projects, so I'm not sure there's a different existing service that would host us. We would need some mechanisms and policy for ensuring that translators who contribute to Mailman all have the necessary FSF copyright assignments. We want to avoid getting in situations where some languages aren't assigned and others are. I'd like to have some ability for cross-project pollination. The idea being that it's good to have Vietnamese experts who contribute to lots of open source projects, and can learn about Mailman, with an easy way to share translations across projects. I don't know if that's a typical way translators work though, or if they would find it a benefit to have such a system. Sync'ing from Bazaar would be very cool! Do any other translators have additional comments? - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkfq/mkACgkQ2YZpQepbvXG+XACeMnD+bvw5CqzNfNX5+iMGzdHY fbIAoIlt6HnbqBe9vWTDPhLcqPn0df8z =zqRN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi everyone :) I'm very sorry I haven't been able to answer this earlier. On 27/03/2008, at 12:24 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
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On Mar 12, 2008, at 5:07 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
On 11/03/2008, at 12:11 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
On 3/10/08, liste yoneticisi wrote:
(An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.)
This is a question that is better asked on the mailman-i18n mailing list. That's where all the Internationalization folks should be hanging out.
I'd definitely vote for Pootle. It's free software, and gives you complete control of access, plus syncing with source control (including bzr, AFAIK). Its developers are extremely responsive to admin or user needs.
Hi Clytie,
So would you recommend that we run our own Pootle server or use one of the public Pootle servers that already exist. The former is problematic since we don't really have the resources or machines to host such a server. I looked at the official Pootle server documentation and while they list a few projects that they host, they don't appear to have formal published policy about how they accept new projects. I would guess that they'd be likely to accept a GPL'd project like Mailman.
The only projects on the main Pootle are really there for experimentation. They don't have the resources to host projects, which is a great pity. I think it would encourage smaller projects to give it a try.
The other listed public Pootle servers seem to be focused on particular projects, so I'm not sure there's a different existing service that would host us.
They have all been set up for specific projects, but you never know, they might have room for another one. However, your next mail follows on to that, please see below.
We would need some mechanisms and policy for ensuring that translators who contribute to Mailman all have the necessary FSF copyright assignments. We want to avoid getting in situations where some languages aren't assigned and others are.
In order to use Pootle, your admin has to grant you access. So we can check if a translator has signed the FSF copyright disclaimer before granting access. Also, you can set specific goals, and assign translators to specific strings or groups of strings. Pootle is very configurable, and gives you control of what happens, and who does what. That is really key to ensuring quality of translation.
I'd like to have some ability for cross-project pollination. The idea being that it's good to have Vietnamese experts who contribute to lots of open source projects, and can learn about Mailman, with an easy way to share translations across projects. I don't know if that's a typical way translators work though, or if they would find it a benefit to have such a system.
I agree with you, and I've been trying to work out some way we can cross-pollinate effectively. As it is, I meet the same people on a lot of the i18n mailing lists, but there's no coordination of all that skill and interest. The Translate Wiki, which is associated with Pootle, tries to create central resources for translators. Maybe we could work out something with the Wordforge people.
Sync'ing from Bazaar would be very cool!
You bet. Guess who asked for it? :D The cool thing was that they implemented it immediately! That sort of developer response is really valuable.
Do any other translators have additional comments?
On Apr 9, 2008, at 12:03 AM, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:14:12PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Would anybody out there be willing and able to run a reliable Pootle server for us?
ibiblio can very likely host it. Please contact me off-list.
Yay!! Good host.
Hi Cristobal, this would be very cool. I'm Cc'ing Clytie who is heading up i18n for Mailman and lots more experience than I do.
What would we need to do to set this up?
OK, there's lots of info on how to run and use Pootle here: http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index If there's any info that you can't find, or any other problems, please ask on the Pootle mailing list (details at the address above). The devs are very helpful. Using Pootle is a really good step, because it removes a lot of the barriers to participation in transation. All a translator needs is a browser and a Net connection, and s/he can do a few strings at any time, from anywhere. You can also do part, or all of your work offline sometimes or always, if you prefer: Pootle is a tool provided to give you more choices, not less. For offline editing, Linux and Windows [1] translators can also try the new Wordforge editor (cousin to Pootle), Pootling: http://www.khmeros.info/drupal/?q=en/download/Translation_Editor I've had good feedback on it from some new translators. :) from Clytie Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n [1] Mac translators (like me) can use LocFactoryEditor, a seriously cool and intuitive piece of software: http://www.triplespin.com/en/products/locfactoryeditor.html
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanks Cristobal and Clytie for helping set this up. I encourage all translators to give this a chance so we can decide whether to move to it officially, try something else, or keep the status quo. I've added a NEWS item on the wiki pointing to this Pootle instance, and I've added a link on the i18n page. I'd really like to get feedback from folks about whether we should switch or not. Ideally, anything we move to would make both translators and developers lives easier. For the latter, Pootle offers a possibility here, since we can hook it up to Bazaar and have it get automatic updates of the .pot file. Although I haven't found it yet, I'm hoping there's one button Mark or I could push to get all the current translation updates whenever we're ready to make a new release. But (not speaking for Mark), I think it would be okay for us to go through a little more pain if Pootle is a clear win for translators. The current status quo is far from ideal for all of us. For the record, the other option is Launchpad translations. Should we do a fair bake-off between them? On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
I'd like to have some ability for cross-project pollination. The idea being that it's good to have Vietnamese experts who contribute to lots of open source projects, and can learn about Mailman, with an easy way to share translations across projects. I don't know if that's a typical way translators work though, or if they would find it a benefit to have such a system.
I agree with you, and I've been trying to work out some way we can cross-pollinate effectively. As it is, I meet the same people on a lot of the i18n mailing lists, but there's no coordination of all that skill and interest. The Translate Wiki, which is associated with Pootle, tries to create central resources for translators. Maybe we could work out something with the Wordforge people.
There's an interesting issue which came up recently regarding Launchpad translations. Cross-pollination has to carefully consider copyright assignments across projects. For example, Mailman could accept translations from any translator that has assigned their copyrights to the FSF. It could also probably accept translations from any other GPL'd program. But if translated strings were suggested from a non-GPL'd program, I think we might not be able to accept such strings. Ultimately, it's up to the translator to understand and enforce the rules. But it could cause the Mailman project (or at least the non- English versions of it) a lot of pain if there were license violations here.
OK, there's lots of info on how to run and use Pootle here:
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index
If there's any info that you can't find, or any other problems, please ask on the Pootle mailing list (details at the address above). The devs are very helpful.
Using Pootle is a really good step, because it removes a lot of the barriers to participation in transation. All a translator needs is a browser and a Net connection, and s/he can do a few strings at any time, from anywhere. You can also do part, or all of your work offline sometimes or always, if you prefer: Pootle is a tool provided to give you more choices, not less.
For offline editing, Linux and Windows [1] translators can also try the new Wordforge editor (cousin to Pootle), Pootling:
http://www.khmeros.info/drupal/?q=en/download/Translation_Editor
I've had good feedback on it from some new translators. :)
Clytie, again, thanks for your leadership here. Cristobal (apologies for the missing accent character ;), thanks for your technological assistance here too! - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhozroACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGR3ACbBL/P28FHuAnT48CCEmGdkJ37 k7sAn3fjiV8XGjDgMZLIvJHCYuggMkV+ =VWoW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys, Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Thanks Cristobal and Clytie for helping set this up. I encourage all translators to give this a chance so we can decide whether to move to it officially, try something else, or keep the status quo.
I've added a NEWS item on the wiki pointing to this Pootle instance, and I've added a link on the i18n page. I'd really like to get feedback from folks about whether we should switch or not.
Ideally, anything we move to would make both translators and developers lives easier. For the latter, Pootle offers a possibility here, since we can hook it up to Bazaar and have it get automatic updates of the .pot file. Although I haven't found it yet, I'm hoping there's one button Mark or I could push to get all the current translation updates whenever we're ready to make a new release.
But (not speaking for Mark), I think it would be okay for us to go through a little more pain if Pootle is a clear win for translators. The current status quo is far from ideal for all of us.
For the record, the other option is Launchpad translations. Should we do a fair bake-off between them?
On Apr 22, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
I'd like to have some ability for cross-project pollination. The idea being that it's good to have Vietnamese experts who contribute to lots of open source projects, and can learn about Mailman, with an easy way to share translations across projects. I don't know if that's a typical way translators work though, or if they would find it a benefit to have such a system.
I agree with you, and I've been trying to work out some way we can cross-pollinate effectively. As it is, I meet the same people on a lot of the i18n mailing lists, but there's no coordination of all that skill and interest. The Translate Wiki, which is associated with Pootle, tries to create central resources for translators. Maybe we could work out something with the Wordforge people.
There's an interesting issue which came up recently regarding Launchpad translations. Cross-pollination has to carefully consider copyright assignments across projects. For example, Mailman could accept translations from any translator that has assigned their copyrights to the FSF. It could also probably accept translations from any other GPL'd program. But if translated strings were suggested from a non-GPL'd program, I think we might not be able to accept such strings.
Ultimately, it's up to the translator to understand and enforce the rules. But it could cause the Mailman project (or at least the non-English versions of it) a lot of pain if there were license violations here.
OK, there's lots of info on how to run and use Pootle here:
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index
If there's any info that you can't find, or any other problems, please ask on the Pootle mailing list (details at the address above). The devs are very helpful.
Using Pootle is a really good step, because it removes a lot of the barriers to participation in transation. All a translator needs is a browser and a Net connection, and s/he can do a few strings at any time, from anywhere. You can also do part, or all of your work offline sometimes or always, if you prefer: Pootle is a tool provided to give you more choices, not less.
For offline editing, Linux and Windows [1] translators can also try the new Wordforge editor (cousin to Pootle), Pootling:
http://www.khmeros.info/drupal/?q=en/download/Translation_Editor
I've had good feedback on it from some new translators. :)
Clytie, again, thanks for your leadership here. Cristobal (apologies for the missing accent character ;), thanks for your technological assistance here too!
- -Barry
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin)
iEYEARECAAYFAkhozroACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGR3ACbBL/P28FHuAnT48CCEmGdkJ37 k7sAn3fjiV8XGjDgMZLIvJHCYuggMkV+ =VWoW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Mailman-i18n mailing list Posts: Mailman-i18n@python.org Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-i18n/linux%40zamirfamily.com
!DSPAM:506,4868cee8142132481111630!
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys,
Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable it. Clytie? Any clues? Cheers, -- Cristóbal Palmer ibiblio.org systems administrator
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys,
Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable it. Clytie? Any clues?
Hi, I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface: "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The line in the web interface for Swedish, for example: ISO Full Special # of plural code Name Chars plurals equation sv Swedish 2 (n != 1) What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have: he Hebrew ...? Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html Cheers, -- Cristóbal Palmer ibiblio.org systems administrator
Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys,
Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable it. Clytie? Any clues?
Hi,
I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface: "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The line in the web interface for Swedish, for example:
ISO Full Special # of plural code Name Chars plurals equation
sv Swedish 2 (n != 1)
What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have:
he Hebrew ...?
Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html
Cheers,
I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but I really have no idea what this means :-(
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Dov Zamir wrote:
Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys,
Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable it. Clytie? Any clues?
Hi,
I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface: "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The line in the web interface for Swedish, for example:
ISO Full Special # of plural code Name Chars plurals equation
sv Swedish 2 (n != 1)
What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have:
he Hebrew ...?
Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html
Cheers,
I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but I really have no idea what this means :-(
This page has a pretty good overview of the plural forms problem, though implementation-wise, it's pretty Qt-specific: http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html This page has some pretty good detail regarding plurals in GNU gettext, which I'm sure is what Pootle supports, and which is pretty close in spirit to Python's gettext implementation: http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/gettext/Plural-forms.html In this specific case, I think the right values for Hebrew are: # of plurals: 2 plural equation: (n != 1) Cheers, - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhsYd4ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGnQgCdHS/0aU7UGoc5xDfxtI8kTaBt ZZgAni3B+NCo/KLO0Ccov+ZG0qlcazu9 =B+zZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Barry Warsaw wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On Jun 30, 2008, at 12:18 PM, Dov Zamir wrote:
Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:40:44AM -0400, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 05:17:21PM +0300, Dov Zamir wrote:
ציטוט Barry Warsaw: Hi Guys,
Why don't I see Hebrew on the Pootle experimental site. Was I supposed to do something to get it there?
Hmmm. The Hebrew (he/) directory is on disk from the bzr checkout, but the web (pootle) interface doesn't show it. I'll check to see if there's something on the pootle end that I have to do to enable it. Clytie? Any clues?
Hi,
I need the following info to add Hebrew from the web interface: "special characters," "number of plurals," and "plural equation". The line in the web interface for Swedish, for example:
ISO Full Special # of plural code Name Chars plurals equation
sv Swedish 2 (n != 1)
What would it look like for Hebrew? So far I have:
he Hebrew ...?
Clytie and Barry have admin rights, to they can theoretically go and add Hebrew here: http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/admin/languages.html
Cheers,
I'd be happy to add my 2 cents, but I really have no idea what this means :-(
This page has a pretty good overview of the plural forms problem, though implementation-wise, it's pretty Qt-specific:
http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq19-plurals.html
This page has some pretty good detail regarding plurals in GNU gettext, which I'm sure is what Pootle supports, and which is pretty close in spirit to Python's gettext implementation:
http://www.gnu.org/software/automake/manual/gettext/Plural-forms.html
In this specific case, I think the right values for Hebrew are:
# of plurals: 2 plural equation: (n != 1) Thanks Barry,
I understand that someone already added that so that Hebrew now shows up?
Cheers, - -Barry
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!DSPAM:506,486c61ea167931410093335!
Hi everyone :) Sorry I wasn't able to reply earlier. I'd like to answer some of your queries about Pootle. Firstly, Pootle is a translation tool. I use it in several other i18n projects, and find it very helpful, because it gives us _more_ options, not less. ACCESS Your current file(s) are available to you from any web browser, any time. The only people who can modify those files are the people who have registered and had translation rights assigned by your language team admin. You have complete control over what happens to your files. If you are the Mailman Language Champion for your language, once you have registered with Pootle, please email me or Cristóbal with your Pootle username, so we can assign you admin rights on Pootle. This will mean an "Admin" link will appear next to your Mailman project on Pootle. Clicking on this link allows you to assign access rights to newly-registered translators. People who have just registered and confirmed their registration have the right to View and Suggest translations, by default. This is a good way to introduce inexperienced translators to the task. They can Suggest translations (pressing the Suggest button), but not actually modify your files. You can login and check their suggestions, and give them feedback. More experienced translators can be assigned Translate rights, and there are other access rights, all completely under your control. Your project (translation of the software into your language) belongs to you. Nobody else can modify it in any way, unless you allow them to do so. WORKFLOW You can choose the workflow that suits you best: translate online, translate offline, or a combination of both. When you modify a file offline, you can submit it by uploading it (merge or overwrite) to Pootle. This is a much easier way to submit translation files. If you don't have upload access, you can simply email your file to your language-team leader. In OpenOffice.org, for example, language teams keep their current files on Pootle, but each translator chooses the workflow that suits him or her most. Depending on the situation at the time, you might have half an hour free, so you can login from a public computer and translate some strings. But when you're at home, you may prefer to download the file and use your favourite offline translation editor. That's fine. Whatever you want to do, the current files will be on Pootle, available to you. ANY LANGUAGE Pootle comes with a wide range of pre-installed languages, so you can use Pootle in your own language. If your language is new to Pootle, all you have to do is email the Pootle admins (Cristóbal or me) and ask that we add your language to the server. Cristóbal, the Translate Wiki maintains a list of plurals expressions and language codes. [1] If you would like to translate the Pootle interface to your language, please register with the Locamotion Pootle [2] and ask those admins to add you to their server. This is the Pootle where development and new interface translations occur. (It also hosts the Decathlon translation project: check it out. ;) ) DOWNLOADING The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on with a summary here. You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your Pootle project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top of the page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO format" link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can download your file in different formats. Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into language- projects. UPLOADING If you have upload rights, each directory will include a file selection field and button in the top right-hand corner of the page. You can choose to Merge or Overwrite files. Unless your Pootle server is overloaded, you should use Merge, to avoid overwriting changes that have occurred since you downloaded your file. The changes are processed immediately: you can start editing that merged file as soon as you have uploaded it. Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle (Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working on the current files. BACKUP Pootle is just a part of your workflow: please backup your work! Although Pootle does backup its day's work, it doesn't backup every single string as soon as you enter it. This would take up too much of its resources. So it's always wise to download your file or directory when you finish your editing session. That way, you have a local copy of your changes. You can take that away, and edit it offline, then merge it back up to Pootle again, later. TRANSLATING Once you click on Show Editing Functions, Pootle will show some links next to each file: the most commonly-used ones are: Quick Translate — translate only blank and fuzzy strings (good for updates) Translate All — go through the whole file (good for new translations, and for reviews) For other functions, see the docs. ;) Once you click on Quick Translate or Translate All, Pootle will take you to the first string. You will see buttons: Back — go back to the previous string Ignore — skip this string Copy — copy the original string into this field (good for formatted or complex strings) Suggest — don't modify the translation, but suggest a change (good for new translators and review) Submit — modify the file by implementing your current translation string You can also extend or shrink the input field, using the buttons Larger and Smaller. The comment field below is for translator comments, so you can leave messages for other translators, or read their messages. Developer comments and msgctxt contextual information will be shown on the left-hand side, with the string header. Note that Pootle supports syntax highlighting (a user feature-request recently implemented): those messy HTML templates from Mailman will be much easier to read! QUESTIONS Firstly, please read the introductory docs and try out the interface. If you have further questions, you're welcome to ask them here. Also, each project has its own needs. The Pootle developers welcome your suggestions (including feature requests). Each version brings enhancements, especially when a new project starts using Pootle. Pootle gives us options, and what it learns from us also goes on to help others. Please don't see Pootle as limiting your options in any way. It is there to give you more choices. You can go on doing things in exactly the way you always have, but simply accessing the current files from Pootle. Or you can try out some of Pootle's very useful features. It's entirely up to you. :) from Clytie Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n [1] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms [2] http://pootle.locamotion.org/ [3] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/index
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Clytie, This was extremely helpful, thanks! I've captured this on the wiki: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Pootle+primer Just a couple of comments.
DOWNLOADING
The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on with a summary here.
You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your Pootle project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top of the page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO format" link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can download your file in different formats.
Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page. I knew I had to be missing it!
Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into language-projects.
When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean. Does Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches? If so, that would be very cool! Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing, without regard to Mailman's release cycle. (In practice though, we should give them a heads up of course.) When we're ready to release we Push A Button to grab all the current translations and package them up into whatever form we need. We can probably automate it all, screen scraping if we have to (though that sucks), but if we had access to those files through bzr, that would rock. If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for Pootle to push branches to, say once per day. That would also be very cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine crashing.
UPLOADING
If you have upload rights, each directory will include a file selection field and button in the top right-hand corner of the page. You can choose to Merge or Overwrite files. Unless your Pootle server is overloaded, you should use Merge, to avoid overwriting changes that have occurred since you downloaded your file. The changes are processed immediately: you can start editing that merged file as soon as you have uploaded it.
Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle (Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working on the current files.
Agreed. I really want to split the translations out of the main tree anyway, so I'm happy if they live on the Pootle server, or even better, on Launchpad. As part of our release process, we can grab and combine everything.
BACKUP
Pootle is just a part of your workflow: please backup your work! Although Pootle does backup its day's work, it doesn't backup every single string as soon as you enter it. This would take up too much of its resources. So it's always wise to download your file or directory when you finish your editing session. That way, you have a local copy of your changes. You can take that away, and edit it offline, then merge it back up to Pootle again, later.
Does Pootle back the files up off-site? See the push-to-Launchpad idea.
Firstly, please read the introductory docs and try out the interface. If you have further questions, you're welcome to ask them here.
One other thing I think we need to be careful of. I've been sadly too lax about this in the past, but we can do better now. Let's make sure that any translator we give permission to has signed the necessary papers with the FSF. http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html If a translator has already disclaimed their translations, they'll be listed on this page: http://translationproject.org/html/authors.html I'll urge all Mailman translators to go ahead and send the disclaimer form now. Cheers, - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhs1RwACgkQ2YZpQepbvXHhCgCcDHWBte+JH60LPsp/TadrdR2/ mE8AoLj5aOPctLnYi3Nxsu9so/KUbNC1 =XM5I -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 09:33:15AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Hi Clytie,
This was extremely helpful, thanks! I've captured this on the wiki:
http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Pootle+primer
Just a couple of comments.
DOWNLOADING
The Pootle docs (Docs and Help link, or [3]) contain everything you need to know about Pootle, so please read them. However, I'll go on with a summary here.
You can download your translation file(s) at any time from your Pootle project directory. Look for the "Zip Archive" link at the top of the page, to download a whole directory of files, or for the "PO format" link next to each file (when you've clicked on Show Editing Functions), to download a single file. As you can see, you can download your file in different formats.
Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page. I knew I had to be missing it!
Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into language-projects.
When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean. Does Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches? If so, that would be very cool!
Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing, without regard to Mailman's release cycle. (In practice though, we should give them a heads up of course.) When we're ready to release we Push A Button to grab all the current translations and package them up into whatever form we need. We can probably automate it all, screen scraping if we have to (though that sucks), but if we had access to those files through bzr, that would rock.
If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for Pootle to push branches to, say once per day. That would also be very cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine crashing.
On my machine there's a branch of lp:mailman/stable, and then a checkout from that branch. I've then symlinked to a directory (messages/) in that checkout. If there's a way to cron-ify the publication of that checkout back to launchpad, that would be most excellent. I would just set that up once and it could run nightly. Cheers, -- Cristóbal Palmer ibiblio.org systems administrator
Hey Barry :) On 03/07/2008, at 11:03 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
This was extremely helpful, thanks! I've captured this on the wiki:
I should have thought of that, sorry.
Just a couple of comments.
Ah, downloading was buried on the Show Editing Functions page. I knew I had to be missing it!
While Pootle is an excellent tool, its UI really does need to become more intuitive. There's a review process going on now, with some improvements already being tested. You can see some of the ideas here. [1] Please feel free to add your own! I'll keep you up-to-date with changes.
Barry, if you want to download all the PO files at once, you're better off downloading them from bzr. Pootle splits the files into language-projects.
When you say "download from bzr", I'm not sure what you mean. Does Pootle's bzr integration actually publish its own branches? If so, that would be very cool!
No, Pootle syncs with Bzr, so the files should be the same on both servers. I don't know if Pootle can publish its own branch, if you would find that useful: if not, you could supply a Python script to make that happen. ;) Most of Pootle's features and improvements have occurred because a user or admin asked for them. I asked for the source-control sync some time ago, starting with SVN, and requesting bzr specifically for Mailman. Pootle is essentially what we make of it. If you hang out on the Pootle list, you'll see how it all comes together.
Ideally, I'd like for the translators to just do their thing, without regard to Mailman's release cycle. (In practice though, we should give them a heads up of course.) When we're ready to release we Push A Button to grab all the current translations and package them up into whatever form we need. We can probably automate it all, screen scraping if we have to (though that sucks), but if we had access to those files through bzr, that would rock.
Since you have bzr sync, all you'll have to do is grab your files from the repo. Give us at least two weeks' warning before release, though. Then we can all update our Pootle files. It would also be useful if you had an RSS feed for changes to the original strings. I don't know about other translators, but I tend to work first on the files sent to me (TP), or ones where I'm emailed about changes to them (Debian). Often I don't have time to scan my mailing lists. So RSS or email notification is a big time-saver, and raises the priority of your project with the time-scarce translator. ;)
If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for Pootle to push branches to, say once per day. That would also be very cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine crashing.
With bzr sync, you don't have to worry about that at all. You might lose some of a day's work: I don't know how often the sync is done. You can probably set that parameter yourself.
Barry, I strongly suggest we keep the most current files on Pootle (Mailman 3.0?), even for testing. We can upload all the different branches, as well, but our translation effort is best spent working on the current files.
Agreed. I really want to split the translations out of the main tree anyway, so I'm happy if they live on the Pootle server, or even better, on Launchpad. As part of our release process, we can grab and combine everything.
Again, since you have bzr sync, we can keep the translation files for all the active branches on Pootle. That gives us a one-stop shop: we can update whichever branch needs updating.
Does Pootle back the files up off-site? See the push-to-Launchpad idea.
Unsure. The source-control sync gives you an offsite backup, anyway. Once Pootle had source-control sync, it may not have continued with a separate backup of the files.
One other thing I think we need to be careful of. I've been sadly too lax about this in the past, but we can do better now. Let's make sure that any translator we give permission to has signed the necessary papers with the FSF.
http://translationproject.org/html/whydisclaim.html
If a translator has already disclaimed their translations, they'll be listed on this page:
http://translationproject.org/html/authors.html
I'll urge all Mailman translators to go ahead and send the disclaimer form now.
Yes, please do. We need this done before we can assign access rights on Pootle. This disclaimer is useful to you, as well: it clears you for the Translation Project, for Mailman, and for other GNU projects. from Clytie Vietnamese Free Software Translation Team http://vnoss.net/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=projects:l10n [1] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle/ui_ideas
On Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 12:22:50AM +0930, Clytie Siddall wrote:
Hey Barry :)
On 03/07/2008, at 11:03 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
<snip />
If possible, I'm sure we could set up a fake user on Launchpad for Pootle to push branches to, say once per day. That would also be very cool because then we wouldn't have to fear for Cristobal's machine crashing.
With bzr sync, you don't have to worry about that at all. You might lose some of a day's work: I don't know how often the sync is done. You can probably set that parameter yourself.
To be clear, I have not set up ANYthing that would push from garp (the machine hosting pootle.metalab) back to anywhere else with bzr. If there's some sort of automatic sync that pootle is trying to make happen, I don't know how it's doing it or where other than garp it's going. Honestly I think everything happening in pootle is currently staying on garp. I think we need to either have it publish a http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/bzr/mailman/ branch or, as Barry suggested, have it push back to launchpad. Both of those would require some setup and I'd like to hear what's optimal before I go digging to figure out how to actually do it. :)
Does Pootle back the files up off-site? See the push-to-Launchpad idea.
Unsure. The source-control sync gives you an offsite backup, anyway. Once Pootle had source-control sync, it may not have continued with a separate backup of the files.
See above. afaik, there's no sync going off of garp at this time. Cheers, -- Cristóbal Palmer ibiblio.org systems administrator
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Jul 5, 2008, at 11:23 PM, Cristóbal Palmer wrote:
To be clear, I have not set up ANYthing that would push from garp (the machine hosting pootle.metalab) back to anywhere else with bzr. If there's some sort of automatic sync that pootle is trying to make happen, I don't know how it's doing it or where other than garp it's going. Honestly I think everything happening in pootle is currently staying on garp.
I think we need to either have it publish a http://pootle.metalab.unc.edu/bzr/mailman/ branch or, as Barry suggested, have it push back to launchpad. Both of those would require some setup and I'd like to hear what's optimal before I go digging to figure out how to actually do it. :)
I think we have two options. The first is to use 'bzr serve' on garp to publish read-only branches from the pootle server. This would require us (the core developers) to pull branches from garp for integration into the main line. This probably has the advantage of being relatively simple to set up, but it has two disadvantages that I can think of. - - Those branches are less discoverable because they are in a different location than all the other Mailman bzr branches. We can mitigate this by documenting them in the wiki. - - We add more dependencies on garp. I'm highly grateful to Cristobal for setting this up, but what happens if that machine crashes or some other technical problem puts garp off line? All those branches go with it. The second option, AFAICT, is to create a fake user on Launchpad and have some cron job on garp push branch updates to this fake user every night. I like this, and think it would be fairly simple to set up, but I talked to one of the LP/bzr guys a few nights ago, and he said they discourage the use of fake users like this. His suggestion was to create an ssh keypair and associate it with one of real users, letting this cron job push to one of our accounts. Because the privkey would necessarily have no passphrase, and because it's an automated process, I personally would not feel comfortable doing this with my account. I doubt anybody else who thinks of security would either. Comments are welcome. For now, I'm favoring the 'fake' user approach. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBSHDZk3EjvBPtnXfVAQI3BAQAoNcwHvfmP++8Pd4nlmTVUdulJNlWlAVl DWUp2fIa2W2+mACxDkopVqFr/EYUQ1somn9YgYk+sKkgMb5yFTrUxMtdPZhmnjMG GBM7fbFfvvoYsNLe6mmMeftTt2CMPKXzYNBVVs2GWPQ1eiZLA8cL8nzUm0p1FTdH AaTy333e7Ps= =eypS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Jul 3, 2008, at 2:57 AM, Dov Zamir wrote:
Thanks Barry,
I understand that someone already added that so that Hebrew now shows up?
It does. - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhsw0YACgkQ2YZpQepbvXE91gCgqTbq71r3+zKlC8A4b3Cc7mZu pMcAn1fX2pD8SqlwBfrCAvzADBBKhOig =Jl6B -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi, On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Thanks Cristobal and Clytie for helping set this up. I encourage all translators to give this a chance so we can decide whether to move to it officially, try something else, or keep the status quo.
If it becomes "official", will we (language teams) have the option to opt-out and work like we recently did for the 2.0.11 release, using a Launchpad team and a bzr branch that can be pulled by you or Mark? That means that our language would be locked or something, to avoid work duplication. Jordi -- Jordi Mallach Pérez -- Debian developer http://www.debian.org/ jordi@sindominio.net jordi@debian.org http://www.sindominio.net/ GnuPG public key information available at http://oskuro.net/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Jun 30, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jordi Mallach wrote:
On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 08:16:56AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Thanks Cristobal and Clytie for helping set this up. I encourage all translators to give this a chance so we can decide whether to move to it officially, try something else, or keep the status quo.
If it becomes "official", will we (language teams) have the option to opt-out and work like we recently did for the 2.0.11 release, using a Launchpad team and a bzr branch that can be pulled by you or Mark?
That means that our language would be locked or something, to avoid work duplication.
If we do adopt Pootle, I'd like to discourage teams from using alternatives to it. If there are specific problems with Pootle in general, or our implementation in particular, it would be best if we could work with Cristobal and the Pootle devs to improve things. This helps more free software benefit from our experience. If it's really a problem, I suppose we could handle your team specially in the short term, using a bzr branch as you describe. If your team has a workflow problem with Pootle, then I suspect other teams will have the same problems. If we can't make Pootle attractive to all our teams then maybe Pootle isn't the answer for us. Can you provide details on why you don't want to use it? - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhsX60ACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFcWQCbBgWnhmbf1d8PpzSelTbugys/ E0AAoK474W3yJfYS0OfcHAml6mu+vIwJ =kvAi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mar 12, 2008, at 5:07 AM, Clytie Siddall wrote:
On 11/03/2008, at 12:11 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
On 3/10/08, liste yoneticisi wrote:
(An explanation to all: I just asked if there is anyone who responsible for Turkish translation of Mailman, attended to these lists from Turkiye.)
This is a question that is better asked on the mailman-i18n mailing list. That's where all the Internationalization folks should be hanging out.
I'd definitely vote for Pootle. It's free software, and gives you complete control of access, plus syncing with source control (including bzr, AFAIK). Its developers are extremely responsive to admin or user needs.
Clytie, I would like to set this up for Mailman 2.2 and 3.0. Could you or another volunteer outline what it would take to get a Pootle instance running for us? Is there some service that we can piggyback on? Would anybody out there be willing and able to run a reliable Pootle server for us? - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkf8NIQACgkQ2YZpQepbvXGAvQCggd1jTxioWaLKXR++uVoY3WFL 6okAn0VoffXIKTRGi++BqVSIDMYiFkGw =CRFK -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mar 8, 2008, at 6:09 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
If you are a language champion or otherwise responsible for a Mailman translation, please get the updated 2.1.10 message catalog for your language to me as soon as possible. Mailman 2.1.10 has been in beta for 3 months now, and I have received very few updated translations.
I am planning to release what I hope will be the final beta release of 2.1.10 in a few days. This would be a release candidate rather than a beta if I had more updated translations.
I think it may be time to once again consider modernizing our i18n workflow, especially for 2.2 and 3.0. Let me state up front that I'm HUGELY grateful for all the excellent work that the i18n volunteers have contributed over the years. Through your work, Mailman was one of the first localized Python projects and we invented a lot of the basic Python machinery for internationalizing applications. Of course, things have come a long way since then, and I think it may be time for us to join a wider translation community. AFAIK, the two leading contenders are running our own Pootle service, or using Launchpad translations. Is there any other viable alternative? I'd like to get some feedback from the current i18n volunteers to see what you think. If you believe that the status quo is best, feel free to say so. I think it's not, but I'm open to opinions. What I'm really looking for is a system and process that makes both the translators lives better, and doesn't put blockages in our workflow for releasing new versions of Mailman. Thanks, - -Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkfVTPYACgkQ2YZpQepbvXFi2QCfUXfgKcktYHrtEODoxd07Xsft ZH8AnRvkLxP92KZL24bFja+C96/22FYO =lF7M -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (9)
-
Barry Warsaw -
Barry Warsaw -
Brad Knowles -
Clytie Siddall -
Cristóbal Palmer -
Dov Zamir -
Jordi Mallach -
liste yoneticisi -
Mark Sapiro