Senthil Kumaran wrote:
Hello Core Dev, I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations. ... Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are ...
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
This was my original email. Based on the discussion here it looks like an informal chat medium will be desirable to many. Some don't see a need.
To bring a closure to this topic, I plan to create a poll in discuss.python.org to bring get votes on the decision.
So, the first decision will be.
Q: Do we need a core-dev only chat? An informal, private mechanism to hang around and chat.
A) No. Let's not do anything new. The status quo we have seems fine. B) Yes, let's experiment with Discord / Slack / Teams / Gitter / IRC.
If B, is your answer choice, and if we decide to experiment with a new solution, what could it be? (1-Many choices)
A) Let's try with Discord for core-dev B) Let's try with Gitter for core-dev C) Let's try with private IRC group other than #python-dev D) Let's try with Slack for core-dev E) Let's try with Teams for core-dev F) I don't have a strong preference. I will use whatever core-dev community uses as long as I can use it on my platform or web.
My aim is not disrupt existing systems that are used like #python-dev in IRC. So, it will continue to be chat mechanism open to public.
There will privacy focus with this solution, details on where to host to be determined.
I hope, I have represented the initial choices well. If not, please let me know.
If we end up with coming to a consensus, I will make a formal proposal to the steering council to make a pronuncement on this topic.
Thank you, Senthil
Thanks, Senthil. This poll format well summarizes the options presented in the discussion. :)
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 1:55 PM Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
Senthil Kumaran wrote:
Hello Core Dev, I find a need for a core-dev chat service, wherein I could engage in some quick effervescent conversations. ... Does anyone else feel the need? Should we explore any? My thoughts and options are ...
If you think that chatting is not a good idea, and a mailing list, and discourse(discuss.python.org) are the best option, please share your thoughts as well.
This was my original email. Based on the discussion here it looks like an informal chat medium will be desirable to many. Some don't see a need.
To bring a closure to this topic, I plan to create a poll in discuss.python.org to bring get votes on the decision.
So, the first decision will be.
Q: Do we need a core-dev only chat? An informal, private mechanism to hang around and chat.
A) No. Let's not do anything new. The status quo we have seems fine. B) Yes, let's experiment with Discord / Slack / Teams / Gitter / IRC.
If B, is your answer choice, and if we decide to experiment with a new solution, what could it be? (1-Many choices)
A) Let's try with Discord for core-dev B) Let's try with Gitter for core-dev C) Let's try with private IRC group other than #python-dev D) Let's try with Slack for core-dev E) Let's try with Teams for core-dev F) I don't have a strong preference. I will use whatever core-dev community uses as long as I can use it on my platform or web.
My aim is not disrupt existing systems that are used like #python-dev in IRC. So, it will continue to be chat mechanism open to public.
There will privacy focus with this solution, details on where to host to be determined.
I hope, I have represented the initial choices well. If not, please let me know.
If we end up with coming to a consensus, I will make a formal proposal to the steering council to make a pronuncement on this topic.
Thank you, Senthil
python-committers mailing list -- python-committers@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-committers-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-committers.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/J... Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
I feel biased towards Zulip because it's open source, it's Python, and I know the people who made it, and I don't want their creation to die. But the UI is a little more complicated than needed (the "topic" feature in particular) if we're just going to do this as a single social channel.
I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this with the Python Discord server. That server is super active with learners and teachers, and has hundreds of channels and it's just really hard to ignore that activity if all you're interested in is a single channel. At this point I'm sure Kyle will pop in with instructions for how to permanently hide all the other channels, but I still say it'd be way easier if we had our own small server so nobody would have to hide anything. (And "server" is purely a virtual thing IIUC, we don't need hardware or even a dedicated VM. If there's a fee I'd be happy to pay for it personally, if that's what would stop us considering this option.)
Gitter is totally fine for this too.
Discourse is different. It's trying to be a better email, not a better IRC. I think that disqualifies it for this particular purpose. (Also the UI is too rich for the purpose.)
I can handle Slack too, but Slack doesn't really care about open source users, so let's not bother with them.
Teams? Please no. I use it every day for work, and it's great for video conferencing, but the group chat is terrible. Trust me.
IRC? I have had bad experiences here in the past, and I will never use it again.
I would want a purely *social* chat that is *closed* to non-core-devs. Everybody who can read it should also be able to post, and feel free to do so. As soon as there's the possibility of spectators I clam up, or at least I am much more guarded about what I post, defeating the purpose. (There should be a CoC that includes "no posting elsewhere of what you see here ever".) We already have enough channels where technical discussions are archived for posterity. We should be careful not to have discussions that lead to decisions on such a chat channel, because that excludes others who either weren't there at the time (all chats are terrible when there's a lot of scrollback, almost by design) or who just choose not to participate.
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-c...>
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 01:54:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
- I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this with the Python Discord server.
This was expressed by other core-devs as well.
- I would want a purely *social* chat that is *closed* to non-core-devs. Everybody who can read it should also be able to post, and feel free to do so. As soon as there's the possibility of spectators I clam up, or at least I am much more guarded about what I post, defeating the purpose. (There should be a CoC that includes "no posting elsewhere of what you see here ever".) We already have enough channels where technical discussions are archived for posterity. We should be careful not to have discussions that lead to decisions on such a chat channel, because that excludes others who either weren't there at the time (all chats are terrible when there's a lot of scrollback, almost by design) or who just choose not to participate.
This is a ver most important part here. Initially, I wasn't thinking what would be social vs non-social with core-dev chat. But guidelines here, that this is more a "team chat" - Just members of team hanging around, feeling comfortable to chat was my thinking.
Requesting guidance on something or seeking opinions should be a part of "social" thingy, but, I foresee that we will have to make sure critical decisions don't happen in there.
Given the social aspect of solution, I think, voting would best capture the winner and folks whose vote's didn't win will perhaps fold over to the winning choice.
That's the reason we had choices between IRC, Gitter, Zulip to Discord.
-- Senthil
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 2:41 PM Senthil Kumaran <senthil@python.org> wrote:
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 01:54:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
- I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this with the Python Discord server.
This was expressed by other core-devs as well.
- I would want a purely *social* chat that is *closed* to non-core-devs. Everybody who can read it should also be able to post, and feel free to do so. As soon as there's the possibility of spectators I clam up, or at least I am much more guarded about what I post, defeating the purpose. (There should be a CoC that includes "no posting elsewhere of what you see here ever".) We already have enough channels where technical discussions are archived for posterity. We should be careful not to have discussions that lead to decisions on such a chat channel, because that excludes others who either weren't there at the time (all chats are terrible when there's a lot of scrollback, almost by design) or who just choose not to participate.
This is a ver most important part here. Initially, I wasn't thinking what would be social vs non-social with core-dev chat. But guidelines here, that this is more a "team chat" - Just members of team hanging around, feeling comfortable to chat was my thinking.
Requesting guidance on something or seeking opinions should be a part of "social" thingy, but, I foresee that we will have to make sure critical decisions don't happen in there.
We should treat this the same as hanging out together in person. Sometines some folks get together and "solve" some important problem or have a breakthrough new idea or whatever. And then they part with the commitment that one (or several) of them will write it up and post to python-dev (or whatever formal channel, maybe a bpo or GitHub issue or a GitHub PR) so others can provide feedback etc.
Given the social aspect of solution, I think, voting would best capture the winner and folks whose vote's didn't win will perhaps fold over to the winning choice.
Sure, I wouldn't be a sore loser.
That's the reason we had choices between IRC, Gitter, Zulip to Discord.
Wait, is there already a vote somewhere?
-- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) *Pronouns: he/him **(why is my pronoun here?)* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-c...>
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 02:50:23PM -0700, Guido van Rossum wrote:
Wait, is there already a vote somewhere?
Not yet. I will create one in discuss.python.org
I had summarized our discussion and shared what would be the questions and voting options here.
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-committers@python.org/message/J...
-- Senthil
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:54 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
- I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this with the Python Discord server. That server is super active with learners and teachers, and has hundreds of channels and it's just really hard to ignore that activity if all you're interested in is a single channel. At this point I'm sure Kyle will pop in with instructions for how to permanently hide all the other channels, but I still say it'd be way easier if we had our own small server so nobody would have to hide anything. (And "server" is purely a virtual thing IIUC, we don't need hardware or even a dedicated VM. If there's a fee I'd be happy to pay for it personally, if that's what would stop us considering this option.)
I actually 100% agree with using our own smaller server instead of Python Discord solely for core dev purposes. I think the 2020 sprint demonstrated well that the traffic on Python Discord can be overwhelming for those who aren't there for the other channels (as much as I love PyDis). Muting every channel manually can be quite tedious to completely suppress notifications, especially when there are as many as PyDis has.
As far as paid options go, there's nitro which IIRC helps to improve voice quality and adds some other neat features, but shouldn't be strictly needed for our purposes.
Gitter would work fine as well, I just like that Discord provides easy voice/video chat in the same location and seems to be where more people are already at these days (reducing the number of separate open channels one has to keep track of).
Best Regards,
--Kyle R. Stanley *Pronouns: they/them **(why is my pronoun here?* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-c...> )
Maybe it’s also not horrible to bet on one of the winners for once. Discord seems poised for success as its original gamer demographic grows up with it, while Gitter and Zulip already look like also-rans. (Though from another vantage point things may well look different — what’s it look like from Europe for example?)
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 21:41 Kyle Stanley <aeros167@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, May 22, 2021 at 4:54 PM Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org> wrote:
- I can handle Discord just fine nowadays but *please* don't combine this with the Python Discord server. That server is super active with learners and teachers, and has hundreds of channels and it's just really hard to ignore that activity if all you're interested in is a single channel. At this point I'm sure Kyle will pop in with instructions for how to permanently hide all the other channels, but I still say it'd be way easier if we had our own small server so nobody would have to hide anything. (And "server" is purely a virtual thing IIUC, we don't need hardware or even a dedicated VM. If there's a fee I'd be happy to pay for it personally, if that's what would stop us considering this option.)
I actually 100% agree with using our own smaller server instead of Python Discord solely for core dev purposes. I think the 2020 sprint demonstrated well that the traffic on Python Discord can be overwhelming for those who aren't there for the other channels (as much as I love PyDis). Muting every channel manually can be quite tedious to completely suppress notifications, especially when there are as many as PyDis has.
As far as paid options go, there's nitro which IIRC helps to improve voice quality and adds some other neat features, but shouldn't be strictly needed for our purposes.
Gitter would work fine as well, I just like that Discord provides easy voice/video chat in the same location and seems to be where more people are already at these days (reducing the number of separate open channels one has to keep track of).
Best Regards,
-- --Kyle R. Stanley *Pronouns: they/them **(why is my pronoun here?* <http://feministing.com/2015/02/03/how-using-they-as-a-singular-pronoun-can-c...> )
-- --Guido (mobile)
participants (3)
-
Guido van Rossum -
Kyle Stanley -
Senthil Kumaran