PEP 581 has been updated with "Downsides of GitHub" section
Hi, I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github Other parts of the PEP has also been updated to reflect recent changes to roundup/bpo that happened after PEP 581's acceptance, for example: - ability to automatically close issues when a PR has been merged. This was added to bpo after PEP 581's acceptance. I've also created an issue in devguide so that this can be documented: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/502 - Availability of REST API in Roundup/bpo. REST API has been requested in Roundup for several years, and there was no activity on it since 2016. REST API has been incorporated to Roundup in February 2019, but it is not yet incorporated to bpo. - Availability of CI for Roundup/bpo. There is CI running on Roundup's unofficial GitHub mirror. But pull requests aren't happening there. Mercurial patches are still how you would contribute to it. Please re-read PEP 581 in its entirety. I plan to update PEP 588 sometime this weekend or next, to incorporate the discussions and suggestions brought up in Python Language Summit 2019:( http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2019/05/mariatta-wijaya-lets-use-github-issues.h... ) Some of the items brought up during the language summit: - we're talking with The PSF to get a professional PM to handle the migration (mentioned by steering council members). - we should create a playground GitHub issue tracker and copy 100s of tickets from bpo to there (suggested by Barry Warsaw) - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily) - Devguide should have a section for "how to triage issues on GitHub" (sorry I forgot who said this, but it is in my note) - Some people liked having screencast of "how to do X on GitHub" (similar to miss-islington's Youtube demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p85YtKKLNno). It would be good if we can do more of them. (suggested by Davin Potts) Thanks. ᐧ
On Jun 28, 2019, at 09:56, Mariatta <mariatta@python.org> wrote:
I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github
Thanks Mariatta!
I plan to update PEP 588 sometime this weekend or next, to incorporate the discussions and suggestions brought up in Python Language Summit 2019:(http://pyfound.blogspot.com/2019/05/mariatta-wijaya-lets-use-github-issues.h...)
One of my biggest concerns is how the bpo-metadata -> GH-labels transition is going to work. Will make label management, discoverability, understanding, and use too unwieldy if we simply map all the bpo data to labels? This might be one area where we want to get closer interaction with the GH folks on their plans or suggestions. Thanks for all your work on these PEPs. -Barry
On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta <mariatta@python.org> wrote:
Some of the items brought up during the language summit: [...] - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)
Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide branch should be created *first* as part of the migration design process, not later during implementation. It needs to happen anyway but it would be much more effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch any holes during the design and review. P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta! -- Ned Deily nad@python.org -- []
I agree with you, Ned. Mariatta, I'm happy to work on an initial pass at the devguide in my fork. On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 10:52 AM Ned Deily <nad@python.org> wrote:
On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta <mariatta@python.org> wrote:
Some of the items brought up during the language summit: [...] - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)
Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide branch should be created *first* as part of the migration design process, not later during implementation. It needs to happen anyway but it would be much more effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch any holes during the design and review.
P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta!
-- Ned Deily nad@python.org -- [] _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JPWPWUUY...
-- *Carol Willing* Willing Consulting <https://willingconsulting.com> *Signature strengths* *Empathy - Relator - Ideation - Strategic - Learner*
Excellent thought. On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 6:49 PM Ned Deily <nad@python.org> wrote:
On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:56, Mariatta <mariatta@python.org> wrote:
Some of the items brought up during the language summit: [...] - we should be updating devguide ahead of the actual migration, so core developers and release managers have time to review and learn the new workflow. (suggested by Ned Deily)
Actually, my suggestion was (and remains :) ) that a modified devguide branch should be created *first* as part of the migration design process, not later during implementation. It needs to happen anyway but it would be much more effective, I think, to have it available up front to help catch any holes during the design and review.
P.S. Thanks for doing this, Marietta!
-- Ned Deily nad@python.org -- [] _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/JPWPWUUY...
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 09:56:26AM -0700, Mariatta wrote:
Hi,
I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether. I'd submit a PR for this except, well, see above... -- Steven
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else? Skip
On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?
I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on them. For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a moderately old Firefox. -- Steven
On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 2:01 AM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?
I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on them.
For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a moderately old Firefox.
I'd be interested to know whether that's actually an issue with system requirements (insufficient hardware) or with the age of the browser (lacking some feature). Particular browser versions aren't supported forever. ChrisA
Note that there also is a Github CLI at https://github.com/node-gh/gh#issues, which brings Github Issues to the terminal and which I use regularly. It, of course, has dependencies and a learning curve of its own, but it might be a viable alternative for those, whose browsers do not support the Github web interface. Just mentioning it, so that it's out there. Of course, I'm sure there are other alternatives as well. On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 6:03 PM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?
I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on them.
For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a moderately old Firefox.
-- Steven _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/U5GPRST2...
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:01 AM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 29, 2019 at 10:26:04AM -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
Is that Git or GitHub? If the latter, more JavaScript bits or something else?
I'm referring to Github. I expect it is probably Javascript. Clicking hyperlinks is fine, but things like buttons with dropdown menus, the hamburger icon, the Clone/Download button etc do nothing when I click on them.
For what it's worth, I'm not using an ad blocker but I am using a moderately old Firefox.
Document this kind of thing, that is fine. But a *separate* issue is that we *should not try* to cater to people who cannot use a modern up to date self updating trustworthy web browser. A browser more than a few months old is a security risk; *we* are not going to enforce that concept, but we shouldn't go out of our way to support it either. The same goes for anyone who disables javascript or uses a content modifying plugins or extensions in their browser. Problems caused by that have a simple solution, it isn't on us to untangle. -gps
Gregory P. Smith wrote:
But a /separate/ issue is that we /should not try/ to cater to people who cannot use a modern up to date self updating trustworthy web browser.
If developers really want people to keep their systems secure, they need to provide updates that *only* fix security issues, and don't also change a bunch of other things to the point that the new version won't work on the same system that the old one did. -- Greg
If loading GitHub website is a technical problem, then it is a pre-existing condition not caused by PEP 581. On Sat, Jun 29, 2019, 12:47 AM Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
You have missed at least one: the minimum technology requirement for using Github is a lot more stringent than for Roundup. Github's minimum system requirements are higher, and it doesn't degrade as well, so moving to Github will make it much harder for those who are using older technology. If not exclude them altogether.
I'd submit a PR for this except, well, see above...
ᐧ
Le 28/06/2019 à 18:56, Mariatta a écrit :
Hi,
I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github
Hi, another missing point: the necessity to register an account with a third party's social network, and accept their terms of service. For this matter, a GH account is different from a BPO account because it is not controlled by the PSF, and must be unique across projects. While I understand this privacy concern is not shared by most core devs, it should still be acknowledged. Cheers, Baptiste
That's being considered in PEP 588: https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0588/#a-github-account-should-not-be-a-r... It was a consideration since PEP 581 was written, but got moved to 588. On Tue, Jul 2, 2019, 8:13 AM Baptiste Carvello < devel2019@baptiste-carvello.net> wrote:
Le 28/06/2019 à 18:56, Mariatta a écrit :
Hi,
I've updated PEP 581 yesterday, adding the "Downsides of GitHub" section.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0581/#downsides-of-github
Hi,
another missing point: the necessity to register an account with a third party's social network, and accept their terms of service. For this matter, a GH account is different from a BPO account because it is not controlled by the PSF, and must be unique across projects. While I understand this privacy concern is not shared by most core devs, it should still be acknowledged.
Cheers, Baptiste _______________________________________________ Python-Dev mailing list -- python-dev@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-dev-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@python.org/message/CQGNNFT7...
participants (13)
-
Baptiste Carvello -
Barry Warsaw -
Carol Willing -
Chris Angelico -
Greg Ewing -
Gregory P. Smith -
Lysandros Nikolaou -
Mariatta -
Mariatta -
Ned Deily -
Skip Montanaro -
Steve Holden -
Steven D'Aprano