Oh gosh, that's great but it's great++ with the dream-within-a-dream frame :D :* On Sep 8, 2019, at 12:29 PM, python-ideas-request@python.org wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language (Mark @pysoniq) 2. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language (Antoine Pitrou) 3. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language (Chris Angelico) 4. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language (David Mertz) 5. Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language (David Mertz)
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Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 16:00:11 -0000 From: "Mark @pysoniq" <mark@pysoniq.com> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language To: python-ideas@python.org Message-ID: <156795841188.4866.611255073798041054@mail.python.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I forgot to mention that I received private feedback that was useful with respect to the technical discussion:
The core technologies used are discussed in detail in the first five blog entries -- that is the heart of the project.
Mark
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 18:01:44 +0200 From: Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language To: python-ideas@python.org Message-ID: <20190908180144.3b07595f@fsol> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran?
Regards
Antoine.
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000 "Mark @pysoniq" <mark@pysoniq.com> wrote:
Hi, Anders,
The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to the Python community that may not be immediately obvious. That’s not your standard freemium, as it has all the “features” of the paid product -- full registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimizations – so when we say it’s $600 per year of advanced software, that’s true. Our view is that the free extension every 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with funding limitations (like us). If that free extension makes their project much more successful, then the entire Python community benefits.
We considered this as an open source project, but we haven’t done that for two reasons:
We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteers who have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language without intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to make it open source.
Open source projects are often very underfunded and don’t have enough volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people. For example, at PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding problems at python.org – a shrinking volunteer base and growing issues list.
If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite skills, then of course we’re very open to the idea of open source, but the technologies used are very leading edge. And again, if you view it with nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge difference to an under-funded project, of which there are many!
Mark _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTIZHU... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
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Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 02:07:12 +1000 From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language To: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> Message-ID: <CAPTjJmrEBT26k4Zz=bOyhMpTYoE9wgdOzzS=_z90HJYyqxrJ7g@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <mark@pysoniq.com> wrote:
Hello to the list,
I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn’t extend or modify existing Python language structure.
The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program control, directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, called “extensions.”
Extensions are called from Python using Python’s ctypes interface. The ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically.
The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than C or C++, without leaving Python.
Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or interpreter to make your project more effective?
If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a proposal here - or else I'm just misreading this.
ChrisA
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:14:58 -0400 From: David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language To: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> Cc: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> Message-ID: <CAEbHw4ZpQPEimNYK0iKdGuC+_VHbT9t8Nmm+9QwAOkYvf+q-kw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5"
--000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think the "proposal" is "people should give us money." :-)
Yes, ads for commercial software do not belong on this list.
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:08 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <mark@pysoniq.com> wrote:
Hello to the list,
I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn=E2=
=80=99t extend or modify existing Python language structure.
The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program
control, directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, call= ed =E2=80=9Cextensions.=E2=80=9D
Extensions are called from Python using Python=E2=80=99s ctypes interfa=
ce. The ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically.
The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than C
or C++, without leaving Python.
Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or interpreter to make your project more effective?
If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a proposal here - or else I'm just misreading this.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/JFM= ZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/ Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
--000000000000c07b0305920cf9b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">I think the "proposal" is "people should g= ive us money." :-)<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, a= ds for commercial software do not belong on this list.</div></div><br><div = class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 8, = 2019, 12:08 PM Chris Angelico <<a href=3D"mailto:rosuav@gmail.com">rosua= v@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Sun, = Sep 8, 2019 at 10:47 PM Mark @pysoniq <<a href=3D"mailto:mark@pysoniq.co= m" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mark@pysoniq.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hello to the list,<br> ><br> > I have an idea for Python that is non-traditional in that it doesn=E2= =80=99t extend or modify existing Python language structure.<br> ><br> > The idea uses Python to translate Python, entirely under program contr= ol,=C2=A0 directly to optimized assembly language .dll or .so files, called= =E2=80=9Cextensions.=E2=80=9D<br> ><br> > Extensions are called from Python using Python=E2=80=99s ctypes interf= ace.=C2=A0 The ctypes wrapper for each extension is created automatically.<= br> ><br> > The goal of this idea is for Python to perform as fast or faster than = C or C++, without leaving Python.<br> <br> Can you clarify here please: What exactly is the idea you're<br> proposing? That CPython make use of your project for its own<br> acceleration? That something be done in the language and/or<br> interpreter to make your project more effective?<br> <br> If your project does already exist, there doesn't seem to be a<br> proposal here - or else I'm=C2=A0 just misreading this.<br> <br> ChrisA<br> _______________________________________________<br> Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org" tar= get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@python= .org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-leave@python.org</a=
<br> <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/"= rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/ma= ilman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python= -ideas@python.org/message/JFMZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/" rel=3D"norefer= rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pyt= hon-ideas@python.org/message/JFMZEOQIUZMGW23VFID3PKMQ4RCP2BTR/</a><br> Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/" rel=3D"no= referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/= </a><br> </blockquote></div>
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Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:28:45 -0400 From: David Mertz <mertz@gnosis.cx> Subject: [Python-ideas] Re: Automatic translation of Python to assembly language To: Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> Cc: python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> Message-ID: <CAEbHw4Y2QBHcENEKfbv-gAW+hWjpUbtZNEnOOxxkwzD47xX1vw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000007eea505920d2ba1"
--00000000000007eea505920d2ba1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Also PyPy and Numba.
Cython actually seems a bit different. Without annotations in a superset language, Cython programs mostly just use the same CPython runtime libraries. However, with a few type annotations sprinkled in (but not actual Python syntax), it can get big speedups).
PyPy actually tried to do direct-to-machine-code for a while. But my understanding is that they decided=E2=80=94as did Numba=E2=80=94that buildi= ng on top of the work of LLVM was more effective (and more cross-architecture).
Obviously, the ad for a commercial product leaves a bad taste in my mouth. But it's also not like there aren't already 5 or more open source projects that do a similar thing better already.
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:03 PM Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran?
Regards
Antoine.
Hi, Anders,
The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000 "Mark @pysoniq" <mark@pysoniq.com> wrote: the Python community that may not be immediately obvious. That=E2=80=99s=
not your
standard freemium, as it has all the =E2=80=9Cfeatures=E2=80=9D of the pa= id product -- full registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimizations =E2=80=93 so when we s= ay it=E2=80=99s $600 per year of advanced software, that=E2=80=99s true. Our view is tha= t the free extension every 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with funding limitations (like us). If that free extension makes their projec= t much more successful, then the entire Python community benefits.
We considered this as an open source project, but we haven=E2=80=99t do=
ne that for two reasons:
We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteers
who have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language without intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to ma= ke it open source.
Open source projects are often very underfunded and don=E2=80=99t have =
enough volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people. For example, at PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding problems at python.org =E2=80=93 a shrinking volunteer base and growing issues list.
If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite
skills, then of course we=E2=80=99re very open to the idea of open source= , but the technologies used are very leading edge. And again, if you view it with nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge difference to a= n under-funded project, of which there are many!
Mark _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTI= ZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/
Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
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solipsis@pitrou.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"= <br> How is your approach different from, say, Cython, Nuitka or Pythran?<br> <br> Regards<br> <br> Antoine.<br> <br> <br> On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 15:56:04 -0000<br> "Mark @pysoniq" <<a href=3D"mailto:mark@pysoniq.com" target=3D= "_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mark@pysoniq.com</a>> wrote:<br> > Hi, Anders, <br> > <br> > The availability of a free extension every 30 days is a big benefit to=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Also PyPy and Numba.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di= v><div dir=3D"auto">Cython actually seems a bit different. Without annotati= ons in a superset language, Cython programs mostly just use the same CPytho= n runtime libraries. However, with a few type annotations sprinkled in (but= not actual Python syntax), it can get big speedups).</div><div dir=3D"auto= "><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">PyPy actually tried to do direct-to-machine-c= ode for a while. But my understanding is that they decided=E2=80=94as did N= umba=E2=80=94that building on top of the work of LLVM was more effective (a= nd more cross-architecture).</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a= uto">Obviously, the ad for a commercial product leaves a bad taste in my mo= uth. But it's also not like there aren't already 5 or more open sou= rce projects that do a similar thing better already.<br><br><div class=3D"g= mail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep = 8, 2019, 12:03 PM Antoine Pitrou <<a href=3D"mailto:solipsis@pitrou.net"= the Python community that may not be immediately obvious.=C2=A0 That=E2=80= =99s not your standard freemium, as it has all the =E2=80=9Cfeatures=E2=80= =9D of the paid product -- full registers, multicore, SIMD and other optimi= zations =E2=80=93 so when we say it=E2=80=99s $600 per year of advanced sof= tware, that=E2=80=99s true.=C2=A0 Our view is that the free extension every= 30 days can make a huge difference to a developer with funding limitations= (like us).=C2=A0 If that free extension makes their project much more succ= essful, then the entire Python community benefits.=C2=A0 <br> > <br> > We considered this as an open source project, but we haven=E2=80=99t d= one that for two reasons:=C2=A0 <br> > <br> > We have looked for and not found a large enough community of volunteer= s who have the skills to translate Python directly to assembly language wit= hout intermediate representation, and optimize the instructions, to make it= open source.<br> > <br> > Open source projects are often very underfunded and don=E2=80=99t have= enough volunteers even from a larger pool of possible people.=C2=A0 For ex= ample, at PyCon 2019 Victor Stinner eloquently discussed the funding proble= ms at <a href=3D"http://python.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D= "_blank">python.org</a> =E2=80=93 a shrinking volunteer base and growing is= sues list.=C2=A0 <br> > <br> > If I am wrong and there is a large enough group with the requisite ski= lls, then of course we=E2=80=99re very open to the idea of open source, but= the technologies used are very leading edge.=C2=A0 And again, if you view = it with nuance, the $600 a year (12 extensions) could make a huge differenc= e to an under-funded project, of which there are many!<br> > <br> > Mark<br> > _______________________________________________<br> > Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org= " target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> > To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@p= ython.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-leave@python.o= rg</a><br> > <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.= org/" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.o= rg/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> > Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/p= ython-ideas@python.org/message/VTIZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/" rel=3D"no= referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/lis= t/python-ideas@python.org/message/VTIZHUNUMKM7VTVMUCXP6LCZFKVSBUX5/</a><br> > Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/" rel= =3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofco= nduct/</a><br> <br> _______________________________________________<br> Python-ideas mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas@python.org" tar= get=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas@python.org</a><br> To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:python-ideas-leave@python= .org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">python-ideas-leave@python.org</a=
<br> <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/"= rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/ma= ilman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/</a><br> Message archived at <a href=3D"https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python= -ideas@python.org/message/3WZZ7LYLN3DCDMQZASOSBLSVDUDSBWVO/" rel=3D"norefer= rer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pyt= hon-ideas@python.org/message/3WZZ7LYLN3DCDMQZASOSBLSVDUDSBWVO/</a><br> Code of Conduct: <a href=3D"http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/" rel=3D"no= referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/= </a><br> </blockquote></div></div></div>
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