PEP 9999: Retire animal-unfriendly language
(needs a sponsor) latest version at https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-9999.rst PEP: 9999 Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language Author: Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> Discussions-To: python-ideas@python.org Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 01-Apr-2020 Post-History: 01-Apr-2020 Sponsor: Abstract ======== Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same. Motivation and Rationale ======================== Estimates for the number of animals slaughtered for meat every year vary, but `worldindata`_ estimates around 80 billion individuals. Farmed animals are often kept in small cages with little to no access to daylight, suffer stress during life and slaughter, or are otherwise systematically mistreated. The `Python Code of Conduct`_ describes that community members are open, considerate, and respectful. The Python standard library and documentation contain numerous references to meat or dairy based food products that are not respectful to our fellow inhabitants of planet Earth. Examples include "spam", "bacon", and "eggs". To align the language use in the standard library and documentation with the Code of Conduct, use of such language should be retired. Current practice ================ There is a widespread tradition in the Python standard library, the documentation, and the wider community, to include references to Monty Pythons Flying Circus. The use of "spam", "bacon", "sausage", and "eggs" can be traced back to the `"Spam" sketch`_ originally broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) on 8 September 1972. In this sketch, a couple are trying to order food in a diner where all items contain spam. The woman does not like spam and wants to order food without spam. A group of horned vikings then sing about the wonderful spam. To get an overview of the usage in the current standard library, the command ``cat $(find . -name '*.py') | grep -oi term | wc -l`` was used. This showed 2615 occurences for spam, 593 for ham (this include some false positives, among other reasons due to references to people whose name innociously contains the substring ham), 517 for eggs, 57 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. Searching ``*.rst`` in the documentation revealed 391 occurrences for spam, 82 for ham, 96 for eggs, 28 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. The source code for cpython revealed just 2 usages for spam and 1 for eggs. Proposed alternatives ===================== Keeping with the good practice of referencing sketches from Monty Python's Flying Circus, this PEP proposes to adopt the fruits mentioned in the `"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch`_: * raspberry (not currently in use) * banana (68 times in standard library) * apricot (not currently in use) * pineapple (8 times in standard library) * peach (once in standard library) * redcurrant (not currently in use) * damson (not currently in use) * prune (23 times in standard library) Other possible alternatives keeping with food items: * salad (occurs once in standard library) * aubergine (referred to in the spam sketch) * shallot (the same) * tofu (vegan protein alternative) Specification ============= For the reasons mentioned in the rationale, all references to meat or dairy products shall be removed from the Python standard library, the documentation, and the cpython source code. The wider Python community is recommended to follow this practice. In core Python: * Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variables "spam", "ham", "bacon", or "sausage", neither as variable names, nor in example strings, nor in documentation. * Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variable "eggs" in context with food items, but may still use it in context of other body parts. Prohibited: ``["salad", "eggs"]``. Allowed: ``["ovaries", "pouch", "eggs"]``. * Programmers SHALL NOT use any other metasyntactic variable that is unfriendly to animals. The wider Python community is encouraged to adopt these practices as well, but the continued use of animal-unfriendly metasyntactic variables will not be considered a violation of the code of conduct. Rejected ideas ============== The authors carefully considered the widespread use of the word "bug" in the meaning of a source code error. Insects including bugs play a crucial role in ecosystems around the world, and it is not fair to blame them for an error that can only be the programmer's. However, the use of the word "bug" for a source code error is too much ingrained into daily use, it far predates the Python community, is not limited to the Python community, and the word "bug" is less unfriendly than "spam", "ham", or "bacon". Therefore, the word "bug" may still be used. Reference Implementation ======================== The author promises to provide a reference implementation for Python 3.10, should this PEP be accepted. References ========== .. _worldindata: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production .. _Python code of conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ .. _"Spam" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/spam.php .. _"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/fruit.php Copyright ========= This document is placed in the public domain or under the CC0-1.0-Universal license, whichever is more permissive. .. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 coding: utf-8 End:
Dear Sir, I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the PEP which you have just transmitted about the inconsiderateness of spam. Many of my best friends are horned Vikings, and only a few of them are animal torturers. Yours faithfully, Brigadier Sir Andrew Barnert, OBE, retired, Mrs. Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2020, at 10:21, Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
(needs a sponsor)
latest version at https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-9999.rst
PEP: 9999 Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language Author: Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> Discussions-To: python-ideas@python.org Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 01-Apr-2020 Post-History: 01-Apr-2020 Sponsor:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
Motivation and Rationale ========================
Estimates for the number of animals slaughtered for meat every year vary, but `worldindata`_ estimates around 80 billion individuals. Farmed animals are often kept in small cages with little to no access to daylight, suffer stress during life and slaughter, or are otherwise systematically mistreated.
The `Python Code of Conduct`_ describes that community members are open, considerate, and respectful. The Python standard library and documentation contain numerous references to meat or dairy based food products that are not respectful to our fellow inhabitants of planet Earth. Examples include "spam", "bacon", and "eggs".
To align the language use in the standard library and documentation with the Code of Conduct, use of such language should be retired.
Current practice ================
There is a widespread tradition in the Python standard library, the documentation, and the wider community, to include references to Monty Pythons Flying Circus. The use of "spam", "bacon", "sausage", and "eggs" can be traced back to the `"Spam" sketch`_ originally broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) on 8 September 1972. In this sketch, a couple are trying to order food in a diner where all items contain spam. The woman does not like spam and wants to order food without spam. A group of horned vikings then sing about the wonderful spam.
To get an overview of the usage in the current standard library, the command ``cat $(find . -name '*.py') | grep -oi term | wc -l`` was used. This showed 2615 occurences for spam, 593 for ham (this include some false positives, among other reasons due to references to people whose name innociously contains the substring ham), 517 for eggs, 57 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. Searching ``*.rst`` in the documentation revealed 391 occurrences for spam, 82 for ham, 96 for eggs, 28 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. The source code for cpython revealed just 2 usages for spam and 1 for eggs.
Proposed alternatives =====================
Keeping with the good practice of referencing sketches from Monty Python's Flying Circus, this PEP proposes to adopt the fruits mentioned in the `"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch`_:
* raspberry (not currently in use) * banana (68 times in standard library) * apricot (not currently in use) * pineapple (8 times in standard library) * peach (once in standard library) * redcurrant (not currently in use) * damson (not currently in use) * prune (23 times in standard library)
Other possible alternatives keeping with food items:
* salad (occurs once in standard library) * aubergine (referred to in the spam sketch) * shallot (the same) * tofu (vegan protein alternative)
Specification =============
For the reasons mentioned in the rationale, all references to meat or dairy products shall be removed from the Python standard library, the documentation, and the cpython source code. The wider Python community is recommended to follow this practice. In core Python:
* Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variables "spam", "ham", "bacon", or "sausage", neither as variable names, nor in example strings, nor in documentation. * Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variable "eggs" in context with food items, but may still use it in context of other body parts. Prohibited: ``["salad", "eggs"]``. Allowed: ``["ovaries", "pouch", "eggs"]``. * Programmers SHALL NOT use any other metasyntactic variable that is unfriendly to animals.
The wider Python community is encouraged to adopt these practices as well, but the continued use of animal-unfriendly metasyntactic variables will not be considered a violation of the code of conduct.
Rejected ideas ==============
The authors carefully considered the widespread use of the word "bug" in the meaning of a source code error. Insects including bugs play a crucial role in ecosystems around the world, and it is not fair to blame them for an error that can only be the programmer's. However, the use of the word "bug" for a source code error is too much ingrained into daily use, it far predates the Python community, is not limited to the Python community, and the word "bug" is less unfriendly than "spam", "ham", or "bacon". Therefore, the word "bug" may still be used.
Reference Implementation ========================
The author promises to provide a reference implementation for Python 3.10, should this PEP be accepted.
References ==========
.. _worldindata: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production .. _Python code of conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ .. _"Spam" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/spam.php .. _"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/fruit.php
Copyright =========
This document is placed in the public domain or under the CC0-1.0-Universal license, whichever is more permissive.
.. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 coding: utf-8 End: _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/WXDGW4... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Even if you think this is clever or funny, are you absolutely sure you needed to share it with the subscribers to this mailing list? On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 17:46, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas < python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
Dear Sir, I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the PEP which you have just transmitted about the inconsiderateness of spam. Many of my best friends are horned Vikings, and only a few of them are animal torturers. Yours faithfully, Brigadier Sir Andrew Barnert, OBE, retired, Mrs.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 31, 2020, at 10:21, Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
(needs a sponsor)
latest version at https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-9999.rst
PEP: 9999 Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language Author: Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> Discussions-To: python-ideas@python.org Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 01-Apr-2020 Post-History: 01-Apr-2020 Sponsor:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
Motivation and Rationale ========================
Estimates for the number of animals slaughtered for meat every year vary, but `worldindata`_ estimates around 80 billion individuals. Farmed animals are often kept in small cages with little to no access to daylight, suffer stress during life and slaughter, or are otherwise systematically mistreated.
The `Python Code of Conduct`_ describes that community members are open, considerate, and respectful. The Python standard library and documentation contain numerous references to meat or dairy based food products that are not respectful to our fellow inhabitants of planet Earth. Examples include "spam", "bacon", and "eggs".
To align the language use in the standard library and documentation with the Code of Conduct, use of such language should be retired.
Current practice ================
There is a widespread tradition in the Python standard library, the documentation, and the wider community, to include references to Monty Pythons Flying Circus. The use of "spam", "bacon", "sausage", and "eggs" can be traced back to the `"Spam" sketch`_ originally broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) on 8 September 1972. In this sketch, a couple are trying to order food in a diner where all items contain spam. The woman does not like spam and wants to order food without spam. A group of horned vikings then sing about the wonderful spam.
To get an overview of the usage in the current standard library, the command ``cat $(find . -name '*.py') | grep -oi term | wc -l`` was used. This showed 2615 occurences for spam, 593 for ham (this include some false positives, among other reasons due to references to people whose name innociously contains the substring ham), 517 for eggs, 57 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. Searching ``*.rst`` in the documentation revealed 391 occurrences for spam, 82 for ham, 96 for eggs, 28 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. The source code for cpython revealed just 2 usages for spam and 1 for eggs.
Proposed alternatives =====================
Keeping with the good practice of referencing sketches from Monty Python's Flying Circus, this PEP proposes to adopt the fruits mentioned in the `"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch`_:
* raspberry (not currently in use) * banana (68 times in standard library) * apricot (not currently in use) * pineapple (8 times in standard library) * peach (once in standard library) * redcurrant (not currently in use) * damson (not currently in use) * prune (23 times in standard library)
Other possible alternatives keeping with food items:
* salad (occurs once in standard library) * aubergine (referred to in the spam sketch) * shallot (the same) * tofu (vegan protein alternative)
Specification =============
For the reasons mentioned in the rationale, all references to meat or dairy products shall be removed from the Python standard library, the documentation, and the cpython source code. The wider Python community is recommended to follow this practice. In core Python:
* Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variables "spam", "ham", "bacon", or "sausage", neither as variable names, nor in example strings, nor in documentation. * Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variable "eggs" in context with food items, but may still use it in context of other body parts. Prohibited: ``["salad", "eggs"]``. Allowed: ``["ovaries", "pouch", "eggs"]``. * Programmers SHALL NOT use any other metasyntactic variable that is unfriendly to animals.
The wider Python community is encouraged to adopt these practices as well, but the continued use of animal-unfriendly metasyntactic variables will not be considered a violation of the code of conduct.
Rejected ideas ==============
The authors carefully considered the widespread use of the word "bug" in the meaning of a source code error. Insects including bugs play a crucial role in ecosystems around the world, and it is not fair to blame them for an error that can only be the programmer's. However, the use of the word "bug" for a source code error is too much ingrained into daily use, it far predates the Python community, is not limited to the Python community, and the word "bug" is less unfriendly than "spam", "ham", or "bacon". Therefore, the word "bug" may still be used.
Reference Implementation ========================
The author promises to provide a reference implementation for Python 3.10, should this PEP be accepted.
References ==========
.. _worldindata: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production .. _Python code of conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ .. _"Spam" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/spam.php .. _"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/fruit.php
Copyright =========
This document is placed in the public domain or under the CC0-1.0-Universal license, whichever is more permissive.
.. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 coding: utf-8 End: _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/WXDGW4... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/ILCQVI... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Mar 31, 2020, at 10:54, Evpok Padding <evpok.padding@gmail.com> wrote:
Even if you think this is clever or funny, are you absolutely sure you needed to share it with the subscribers to this mailing list?
Now, I’ve noticed a tendency for this thread to get rather silly. Now I do my best to keep things moving along, but I’m not having things getting silly. Those last two replies got very silly indeed. And the one about the animal cruelty was even sillier. Now, nobody likes a good laugh more than I do. Except perhaps my wife and some of her friends. Oh, yes, and Captain Johnson. Come to think of it, most people like a good laugh more than I do, but that’s beside the point. Now, let’s have a good, clean, healthy April Fools’ PEP thread. Get some air into your lungs. 9, 9, 9, 9 and all that. Ah yes, that’s better. Now let’s hope this doesn’t get silly.
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake". Regards Antoine. On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:18 +0200 Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
(needs a sponsor)
latest version at https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-9999.rst
PEP: 9999 Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language Author: Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> Discussions-To: python-ideas@python.org Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 01-Apr-2020 Post-History: 01-Apr-2020 Sponsor:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
Motivation and Rationale ========================
Estimates for the number of animals slaughtered for meat every year vary, but `worldindata`_ estimates around 80 billion individuals. Farmed animals are often kept in small cages with little to no access to daylight, suffer stress during life and slaughter, or are otherwise systematically mistreated.
The `Python Code of Conduct`_ describes that community members are open, considerate, and respectful. The Python standard library and documentation contain numerous references to meat or dairy based food products that are not respectful to our fellow inhabitants of planet Earth. Examples include "spam", "bacon", and "eggs".
To align the language use in the standard library and documentation with the Code of Conduct, use of such language should be retired.
Current practice ================
There is a widespread tradition in the Python standard library, the documentation, and the wider community, to include references to Monty Pythons Flying Circus. The use of "spam", "bacon", "sausage", and "eggs" can be traced back to the `"Spam" sketch`_ originally broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) on 8 September 1972. In this sketch, a couple are trying to order food in a diner where all items contain spam. The woman does not like spam and wants to order food without spam. A group of horned vikings then sing about the wonderful spam.
To get an overview of the usage in the current standard library, the command ``cat $(find . -name '*.py') | grep -oi term | wc -l`` was used. This showed 2615 occurences for spam, 593 for ham (this include some false positives, among other reasons due to references to people whose name innociously contains the substring ham), 517 for eggs, 57 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. Searching ``*.rst`` in the documentation revealed 391 occurrences for spam, 82 for ham, 96 for eggs, 28 for bacon, and 10 for sausage. The source code for cpython revealed just 2 usages for spam and 1 for eggs.
Proposed alternatives =====================
Keeping with the good practice of referencing sketches from Monty Python's Flying Circus, this PEP proposes to adopt the fruits mentioned in the `"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch`_:
* raspberry (not currently in use) * banana (68 times in standard library) * apricot (not currently in use) * pineapple (8 times in standard library) * peach (once in standard library) * redcurrant (not currently in use) * damson (not currently in use) * prune (23 times in standard library)
Other possible alternatives keeping with food items:
* salad (occurs once in standard library) * aubergine (referred to in the spam sketch) * shallot (the same) * tofu (vegan protein alternative)
Specification =============
For the reasons mentioned in the rationale, all references to meat or dairy products shall be removed from the Python standard library, the documentation, and the cpython source code. The wider Python community is recommended to follow this practice. In core Python:
* Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variables "spam", "ham", "bacon", or "sausage", neither as variable names, nor in example strings, nor in documentation. * Programmers SHALL NOT use the metasyntactic variable "eggs" in context with food items, but may still use it in context of other body parts. Prohibited: ``["salad", "eggs"]``. Allowed: ``["ovaries", "pouch", "eggs"]``. * Programmers SHALL NOT use any other metasyntactic variable that is unfriendly to animals.
The wider Python community is encouraged to adopt these practices as well, but the continued use of animal-unfriendly metasyntactic variables will not be considered a violation of the code of conduct.
Rejected ideas ==============
The authors carefully considered the widespread use of the word "bug" in the meaning of a source code error. Insects including bugs play a crucial role in ecosystems around the world, and it is not fair to blame them for an error that can only be the programmer's. However, the use of the word "bug" for a source code error is too much ingrained into daily use, it far predates the Python community, is not limited to the Python community, and the word "bug" is less unfriendly than "spam", "ham", or "bacon". Therefore, the word "bug" may still be used.
Reference Implementation ========================
The author promises to provide a reference implementation for Python 3.10, should this PEP be accepted.
References ==========
.. _worldindata: https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production .. _Python code of conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/conduct/ .. _"Spam" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/spam.php .. _"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch: http://www.montypython.net/scripts/fruit.php
Copyright =========
This document is placed in the public domain or under the CC0-1.0-Universal license, whichever is more permissive.
.. Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 coding: utf-8 End: _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/WXDGW4... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 09:08:50PM +0300, Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
I thought palm trees are plants.
Animals can fight or run, but plants cannot. So we must protect plants more, not less! Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On Mar 31, 2020, at 12:03, Oleg Broytman <phd@phdru.name> wrote:
Animals can fight or run, but plants cannot. So we must protect plants more, not less!
That’s just what the plants want you to believe. Have you ever seen how trees get on when there are no humans about? No, of course you haven’t, because it’s impossible. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody’s around to hear it, it’s probably breaking into your house. Trust me, your average tree (not a larch, of course, but they’re hardly average) can outrun a hedgehog without breaking a sweat. We need to treat each plant individually, not overgeneralize them as a group. Sure, a young, innocent oak sapling deserves our protection, but some of those redwoods, well, they didn’t get to be 4700 years old by being helpless. Get cornered by one of them in a dark alley in Mammoth and you’ll be wishing it was a bunch of redcurrants or a tiger you were dealing with. Which is why we should all hunt and eat redwood trees rather than cows or bananas. And don’t even get me started on sunflowers.
Just in case this was not proposed in jest: How about just adding a note stipulating that if found offensive, all references to animal derived products are encouraged to be interpreted as their real or hypothetical plant-based alternatives, some of which exist today (plant based "ham", "chicken") and others that will presumably also exist in the future (unless I'm wrong, plant based eggs)? On Tue, Mar 31, 2020, 2:13 PM Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
I thought palm trees are plants. _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/FNBM2H... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Mar 31, 2020, at 20:03, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
On 1/04/20 7:08 am, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
Should we deprecate the word "wheel" as well, since it's a reference to cheese?
If the Cheese Shop doesn’t actually have any cheese in stock, is it actually offensive to cows?
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:20:39 -0700 Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas <python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
On Mar 31, 2020, at 20:03, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
On 1/04/20 7:08 am, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
Should we deprecate the word "wheel" as well, since it's a reference to cheese?
If the Cheese Shop doesn’t actually have any cheese in stock, is it actually offensive to cows?
If the cat's eaten it, then yes. Regards Antoine.
On 2020-04-01 18:20, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
On Mar 31, 2020, at 20:03, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
On 1/04/20 7:08 am, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
Should we deprecate the word "wheel" as well, since it's a reference to cheese?
If the Cheese Shop doesn’t actually have any cheese in stock, is it actually offensive to cows?
You're assuming that cheese can be made only from cow's milk. It can also be made from goat's milk. Typical pro-bovine/anti-caprid bias! :-)
On 01/04/2020 19:07, MRAB wrote:
On 2020-04-01 18:20, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
On Mar 31, 2020, at 20:03, Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
On 1/04/20 7:08 am, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
31.03.20 20:52, Antoine Pitrou пише:
Your search is incomplete, for example you failed to account for occurrences of "cheese" and "milkshake".
Should we deprecate the word "wheel" as well, since it's a reference to cheese?
If the Cheese Shop doesn’t actually have any cheese in stock, is it actually offensive to cows?
You're assuming that cheese can be made only from cow's milk. It can also be made from goat's milk. Typical pro-bovine/anti-caprid bias! :-)
Ewe are forgetting to separate your sheep from your goats. -- Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:19 AM Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your intention here, I believe the backward incompatibilities would make this untenable. We will need a migration plan. Unfortunately, African swallows are non-migratory, severely impacting your proposal. ChrisA
Chris Angelico wrote:
We will need a migration plan. Unfortunately, African swallows are non-migratory, severely impacting your proposal.
Well, aren't European swallows migratory? They may not be able to carry a coconut, but certainly a migratory plan would be under their weight limit. :-) On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 2:24 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 4:19 AM Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
While I wholeheartedly agree with your intention here, I believe the backward incompatibilities would make this untenable. We will need a migration plan. Unfortunately, African swallows are non-migratory, severely impacting your proposal.
ChrisA _______________________________________________ Python-ideas mailing list -- python-ideas@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to python-ideas-leave@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-ideas.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-ideas@python.org/message/FRNE2H... Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 12:28 PM Kyle Stanley <aeros167@gmail.com> wrote:
Chris Angelico wrote:
We will need a migration plan. Unfortunately, African swallows are non-migratory, severely impacting your proposal.
Well, aren't European swallows migratory? They may not be able to carry a coconut, but certainly a migratory plan would be under their weight limit. :-)
True, that would work for many places. But we can't ignore the rest of the world, where nonmigratory swallows might result in a whole new Python 2->3 transition, where African Pythonistas are stuck on the old version. But perhaps we could import something. That's how you fix everything else in Python. ChrisA
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:17:18 +0200 Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs".
This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
Dear Sir, I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the PEP which has just been posted about the unseemly treatment of farm animals. My farm raised pythons are never confined to a cage, and I assure you that all mistreatment is deliberately unsystematic. Brigadier Sir Daniel Sommers, retired, Mrs.
Local Variables: mode: indented-text indent-tabs-mode: nil sentence-end-double-space: t fill-column: 70 coding: utf-8 End:
Oh, dear Lord, no, please don't start another emacs/vi war, let alone a lengthy line length debate.
Proposed alternatives =====================
Keeping with the good practice of referencing sketches from Monty Python's Flying Circus, this PEP proposes to adopt the fruits mentioned in the `"Self-Defence Against Fresh Fruit" sketch`_:
* raspberry (not currently in use) * banana (68 times in standard library)
[...] Sorry, I'm afraid that "banana" is not an acceptable alternative here. It's well known that botanically, bananas are a type of fish. Please see the study at https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/6870748 for more information on this. -- Mark
On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 04:11:12PM -0700, Matthias Bussonnier <bussonniermatthias@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2020 at 10:18, Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> wrote:
the command ``cat $(find . -name '*.py') | grep -oi term | wc -l`` was used.
I'm quite concern in the lack of mention of proper forms and procedure to perform experiment with domestic felines.
AFAICS felines when performing experiments on people who thinks they're "owners" ignore any procedures.
-- Mathias
Oleg. -- Oleg Broytman https://phdru.name/ phd@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN.
On 2020-03-31 10:17, Gerrit Holl wrote:
(needs a sponsor)
latest version at https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-9999.rst
PEP: 9999 Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language Author: Gerrit Holl <gerrit.holl@gmail.com> Discussions-To: python-ideas@python.org Status: Draft Type: Informational Content-Type: text/x-rst Created: 01-Apr-2020 Post-History: 01-Apr-2020 Sponsor:
Abstract ========
Python has long used metasyntactic variables that are based on the consumption of meat and dairy products, such as "spam", "ham", and "eggs". This language is not considerate to pigs or chicken and violates the spirit of the Code of Conduct. This PEP proposes to retire the use of those names in official Python documentation and source code and to recommend users of Python to do the same.
I'm afraid I consider your proposal woefully limited in scope. We must recognize that the entire concept of Python as a language perpetuates a speciesist hegemony in which the animal (python) exists only as a tool for use by humans (programmers). Therefore we must demand that the language itself be renamed to something less offensive and more accurate, such as ConvenientProgrammingLanguage. Alternatively, we could make a concerted effort to recruit some actual pythons onto the steering committee so that they have the opportunity to influence the development of this language in a manner consistent with the needs of their community. -- Brendan Barnwell "Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no path, and leave a trail." --author unknown
On Wed, 01 Apr 2020 10:50:29 -0700 Brendan Barnwell <brenbarn@brenbarn.net> wrote:
... we must demand that the language itself be renamed to something less offensive and more accurate, such as ConvenientProgrammingLanguage ...
ITYM convenient_programming_language. See PEP 8, Naming Conventions, Method Names and Instance Variables (the language as we know it is an instance of a convenient programming language).¹ ¹ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0008/#id47
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:35 PM Dan Sommers < 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com> wrote:
On Wed, 01 Apr 2020 10:50:29 -0700 Brendan Barnwell <brenbarn@brenbarn.net> wrote:
... we must demand that the language itself be renamed to something less offensive and more accurate, such as ConvenientProgrammingLanguage ...
ITYM convenient_programming_language. See PEP 8, Naming Conventions, Method Names and Instance Variables (the language as we know it is an instance of a convenient programming language).¹
I'm not so sure about that. Is it an instance or a subclass? Seems to me that the language specification would be a base class (maybe an abstract base class) and each implementation would subclass that with appropriate method overrides. In that case, ConvenientProgrammingLanguage would be correct by PEP 8 (or is that CPLEP 8 now?).
On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:59, Jonathan Goble <jcgoble3@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:35 PM Dan Sommers <2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com> wrote: On Wed, 01 Apr 2020 10:50:29 -0700 Brendan Barnwell <brenbarn@brenbarn.net> wrote:
... we must demand that the language itself be renamed to something less offensive and more accurate, such as ConvenientProgrammingLanguage ...
ITYM convenient_programming_language. See PEP 8, Naming Conventions, Method Names and Instance Variables (the language as we know it is an instance of a convenient programming language).¹
I'm not so sure about that. Is it an instance or a subclass? Seems to me that the language specification would be a base class (maybe an abstract base class) and each implementation would subclass that with appropriate method overrides. In that case, ConvenientProgrammingLanguage would be correct by PEP 8 (or is that CPLEP 8 now?).
I don’t think inheritance is the relationship you want here. Of course you’re right that CConvenientProgrammingLanguage is a class, because every time you run it you are creating an instance of it. But CConvenientProgrammingLanguage isn’t a subclass of ConvenientProgrammingLanguage. It’s not a language, it’s a language implementation—an instantiation of the language. Along with the other instantiations like MicroConvenientProgrammingLanguage, JonvenientProgrammingLanguage, and CoCo. So ConvenientProgrammingLanguage is a metaclass. (And is itself an instance of the metametaclass ProgrammingLanguage—one of the few that can actually represent that relationship, but then everyone agrees that the powerful metaclass semantics are what makes it convenient, right?) At any rate, metaclasses are spelled the same way as regular classes in CPLEP 8. But maybe that’s too English- (or Dutch-)centric? The fact that we only have two ways to capitalize things is surely just a consequence of the accident that our script has only two classes of letter case. I’m not aware of any human scripts that have three or more classes, but do we really want a language that’s limited to human use only?
participants (17)
-
Andrew Barnert -
Antoine Pitrou -
Brendan Barnwell -
Chris Angelico -
Dan Sommers -
Evpok Padding -
Gerrit Holl -
Greg Ewing -
Jonathan Goble -
Kyle Stanley -
Mark Dickinson -
Matthias Bussonnier -
MRAB -
Oleg Broytman -
Rhodri James -
Ricky Teachey -
Serhiy Storchaka