Mailman 3 - Pythonedu-wg

Droplet editor for Py?
by Jurgis Pralgauskis 13 Jul '16

13 Jul '16

Hi, probably some of you know https://pencilcode.net - editor which can map Code: Blocks<-->Text (both ways!) which is based on https://github.com/droplet-editor/droplet Currently works with JS and CoffeeScript (in browser) And has some ideas for Py (Based Sculpt AST) as well https://ideas.pencilcode.net/ It would be flexible approach for beginners... -- Jurgis Pralgauskis tel: 8-616 77613; Don't worry, be happy and make things better ;) http://galvosukykla.lt

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py-zero: simple loop syntax
by Jurgis Pralgauskis 13 Jul '16

13 Jul '16

When I try to teach Python to young kids, the big obstacle is describing repetitions in simple way (esp. for turtle graphics). for a in range(4): .... More py-zen would be repeat 4: .... I know some py-edu-environments have their hacks: https://codecombat.com/ has "loop" instead "while True" http://reeborg.ca/reeborg.html has the "repeat n" version Also "repeat n" is used in Blockly <https://blockly-games.appspot.com/turtle?lang=en&level=10> and Scratch <https://wiki.scratch.mit.edu/wiki/Repeat_()_(block)> Also scientific math env has kind of hack for "range(a, b+1)" -- just "[a..b]" (like in CoffeScript <https://coffeescript-cookbook.github.io/chapters/syntax/for_loops>): http://sagemath.wikispaces.com/Counters ***My ideas, how to implement this*** - IDE (plugin) translates "repeat" to "for.." on run, on errors it could translate stuff back to hide any mention of "for.." :) or after translation could leave a comment that it has been translated from "repeat" - PEP for even more edu-friendly Python: "py-zero" (with possibly more stuff)? :) -- Jurgis Pralgauskis tel: 8-616 77613; Don't worry, be happy and make things better ;) http://galvosukykla.lt

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Re: [Pythonedu-wg] How can you help Python in education today?
by Daniel Pope 12 Jul '16

12 Jul '16

I've been distracted by orchestration frameworks and blogging and reading about the horror show that is Brexit, but I hope to get back to edubundle soonish. Also a new release of pgzero is long overdue. On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 at 19:28 Nicholas H.Tollervey <ntoll(a)ntoll.org> wrote: > Amen Sister! You tell 'em how it is Carrie Anne. ;-) > > Stuff is in the pipeline for a dedicated site about Python in education. > More on this *very* soon (including somewhere to go look, poke it with a > stick and easy-to-follow instructions for how to contribute). > > As someone involved in Mu, I can't reiterate enough how important it is > that we get feedback. There will be a new release over this weekend, and > it'll be the final micro:bit only release. From now on, I intend making > this a generic Python editor that'll work well with projects like > PyGameZero, NetworkZero and so on. > > If you're interested, here's a sneak peak of what to expect in the next > release: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my_MkYRoXQ8 > > N. > > On 12/07/16 18:52, Carrie Anne Philbin wrote: > > I've been distracted lately by all of the work that the micro-python > > group have been doing to support the BBC micro:bit. Work that continues > > and needs your support. > > > > 1. Work is continuing on Mu the learner focused Python IDE. The team > > would really appreciate your thoughts and feedback, especially if you > > work with young people or those new to Python. You can do so here, on > > another thread or on the Microbit-Python mailing list. > > > > 2. Support for teachers/learners. If you need support learning python or > > teaching with python then why not start a thread here? A wonderful > > Python community person will help you out. This is a really quick and > > simply way that members can get involved. They want to help you! > > > > 3. Lesson plans, tutorials/resources. Have you written any that you want > > to share with others? Then share them here with a new thread. Spread the > > love! > > > > 4. Documentation. Recently CodeBoom wrote a really good blog post about > > the lack of good documentation for python modules that are used in > > education. Could educators on this list, collate their most used modules > > that need documenting for those wanting to get started with them. Could > > others help with this? > > > > 5. Education bundle. Dan Pope started a thread sharing his progress on > > this. Can you provide feedback, ideas, suggestions, a pat on the back, > > testing opportunities in the future? > > > > The moral here is do not let this WG die! Everyone always asks me "how > > can I get involved?" Educators share your success, failures and > > frustrations. Community members share your ideas, solutions and > good-will. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Carrie Anne. > > > > -- > > Director of Education > > Raspberry Pi Foundation > > UK Charity No. 1129409 > > > > www.raspberrypi.org <http://www.raspberrypi.org/> | www.codeclub.org.uk > > <http://www.codeclub.org.uk> > > @ <http://twitter.com/missphilbin> | in > > <https://uk.linkedin.com/in/carrie-anne-philbin-a20649b7> | *▷* > > <https://www.youtube.com/user/GeekGurlDiaries> > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pythonedu-wg mailing list > > Pythonedu-wg(a)python.org > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pythonedu-wg mailing list > Pythonedu-wg(a)python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pythonedu-wg >

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Edu bundle
by Stewart Watkiss 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

This sounds good. Presumably this would also mean that the students could create a complete application that could be shared with friends through a USB stick? Will it be possible to install this onto the system? I expect some schools will have the computers locked down preventing running executables from a personal USB drive, or from their home drive. I believe this is what the admin's have done to restrict students at a school I've been helping out at (although I don't know the full details of what's locked down). I expect this can be installed to an appropriate folder by an administrator and then be made available to users, although it will probably need instructions on any specific changes required, or perhaps a script or installer to install appropriate icons etc. I'd also be interested if this can incorporate pgzero - presumably that is something you would be the expert on. I'm happy to help out. If you can put details up for how the build works so far then I'd be interested in seeing how I works and how I can help contribute. Stewart

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Edu bundle
by Daniel Pope 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

I made a thing: https://github.com/lordmauve/edubundle/releases/tag/0.1-beta I think it should just unzip to a USB stick and you're away... you've obviously got things like Pygame Zero, Python Repl, Mu, a command prompt in which you can use pip etc. IPython Notebook is in there for more advanced stuff like graph plotting. This was mainly a learning experience for me, and to see how it can be done. The real work will be in automating the building of it and polishing up the rough edges. This was made much easier because various difficult dependencies (Pygame, PyQt) are shipping or working on Windows wheels. Also for the most part Python itself is quite happy without an absolute path (it has to be relative so that it can be simply unzipped or mounted as different drive letters). However pip creates binary executables for command line programs that do not, by default, contain relative paths - I think that could be changed. Windows .lnk files present additional problems. A good idea would be to use the setuptools stuff to create little stub binaries that launch Python with the right path config, plus contain an appropriate icon resource. Another avenue for improvement, now that PyQt is in the bundle, would be to write some additional GUI tools to make it a bit easier to do cool things - perhaps a "piptitude" GUI for pip?

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Re: [Pythonedu-wg] Edu bundle
by Nicholas H.Tollervey 21 Jun '16

21 Jun '16

On 21/06/16 09:30, Daniel Pope wrote: > Ok, then we should switch to x86 when we automate the build. > Both would be best. There's huge variation in what's used in schools. N.

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PyCon US 2016 Education Summit
by Staff Gi Soong Chee 29 May '16

29 May '16

Request to join. Thanks.

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Re: [Pythonedu-wg] The installation and deployment experience
by Caleb Hattingh 19 May '16

19 May '16

On 19 May 2016 at 00:01, Stewart Watkiss <stewart(a)penguintutor.com> wrote: > Hi Caleb, > > Do you mean to send this just to me rather than to the PythonEdu list? > It's certainly a valid discussion for the list if you want to repost it > there. > Hi Stewart Oops! Yes, I meant to reply to the list. I should not do email late at night :) If people want to follow, hopefully it's not too confusing to have to first read the copied message below this one. > ...so that they can only run executables from the trusted folders, so they > would not be able to run an executable from their home / document folders. > This means involvement from support services is unavoidable regardless of the final solution. > If they could then it would require a full copy of the python interpreter > in every user's home folder which would not be ideal. > I disagree: I think this is exactly ideal. I set up my personal development this way on every platform, Windows, Linux and Mac. (Admittedly with Anaconda Python + Conda virtualization rather than WinPython, but the point stands). In particular, I make sure to never interfere with the "system" Python installation in any way. This is a best practice. Many people do this via virtualenv (using the system Python as the base), but I don't think teaching students virtualenv just for the purpose of getting a Python working is a good idea. Could you say why you regard this as non-ideal? > In terms of the installer then it's about trying to install into the > Python library folder which could be in program files or in it's own > folder. > Why though? Python can also be in its own folder inside the users home folder. If a user messes up the installation, recovery is as simple as deleting the Python folder and copying a fresh one in. > There should not be any need to add anything to the start menus. > Agree. > If we can get the official python package maintainers to create the > installers then that's going to be even better. > I'm extremely pessimistic about the core dev team doing anything more than what is currently provided at python.org. Everything that is currently being done is largely volunteer work and they already have too much of it. The other problem is even bigger: the core team are way too far from the problem domain, i.e., education environments, and the unique challenges that go with that. I'd much rather have educators drive requirements. And more importantly: WinPython already exists, and is already supported. Why would it not be used, even merely as a starting point? If a new bundled distribution was made, how would it be any different? > I restarted the thread recently hadn't really made any progress (as I said > previously there have been many valid reasons). > The problems are hard problems! What is interesting to me about edu as a domain, is that here you really can't expect your users to work around difficulties in your software. Python packaging and distribution is regarded by many (even experienced) developers as difficult; the reasons are the same as what we're now discussing, it's just that our threshold for what we now expect a user to deal with has lowered. > > > On 2016-05-18 12:01, Caleb Hattingh wrote: > > On 18 May 2016 at 19:52, Stewart Watkiss <stewart(a)penguintutor.com> wrote: > >> >> That'll mean pre-packaged, certified and checked installers for all sorts >>> of weird and wacky Windows environments. >> >> >> So sounds like the simplest way in terms of getting the packages >> installed is to have a single Windows install package (msi) that can be >> handed to the appropriate IT administrators for them to install. > > > There is a distribution called Winpython (https://winpython.github.io/) > that is easily installable and doesn't require admin privileges. It can be > installed in "portable" mode, which is really just decompression, and you > can drag-and-drop the folder between computers, or pass around a memory > stick. The *best* thing about Winpython is that its package manager > installs pre-built binaries for libraries that require that, so you almost > never need a compiler available for most packages (it draws from the > Windows binary collection of modules that Christoph Gohlke has > energetically maintained for years and years). > > I see that now it has also started distributing a "Zero" version, which is > much smaller and seems to be a minimalist distribution for education: > > > https://github.com/winpython/winpython/blob/master/changelogs/WinPythonZero… > > Do note, however, that it includes a *graphical* package installer so you > (or your students) can point-and-click install extra packages. This > project has a reasonably long history; it is unlikely that another effort > to produce a bundled, admin-rights-free, Python distro on Windows is going > to end up with a better result. > > There is a list of downloads (including the "Zero" builds) on the github > releases page here: > > https://github.com/winpython/winpython/releases > > >> I don't actually have any experience with creating Windows install files, >> but it doesn't look it should be too difficult - famous last words :-). > > > I have a fair bit of experience with InnoSetup: > > http://www.jrsoftware.org/isinfo.php > > It is quite a bit easier to create an installer than you might expect. > The problems come in dealing with the differences between different > versions of Windows, assuming your installer wants to integrate into the > "Program Files" and "Start Menu" structures in the correct way. This is > why bundles that don't need admin rights and can run from the "Documents" > folder are much easier. > > Finally: I haven't personally used Windows in a while, and it makes me > nervous to recommend things and ways of working that I don't use myself; I > have not used Python at all on Windows 10, for example. As Nicholas said, > it is probably a good idea to pay attention to what active Pythonistas on > Windows are doing. > > rgds > Caleb > > >

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Re: [Pythonedu-wg] FW: The installation and deployment experience
by Stewart Watkiss 19 May '16

19 May '16

> Given that Python is packaged for (all the weird and wacky versions > of) Windows, there must be some expertise within the community for how > to do this. That'd be great if we can leverage some of the existing expertise, either in terms of guidance or if this could be incorporated into the existing process for creating Windows builds. I'm happy to help in whatever way I can whether that's in preparing packages / updating or helping with documentation but the learning curve would obviously be much easier if we can tap in on other people's experience. Also what is the process for deciding what "official" libraries are included in the Windows distribution? Could it be possible to include some of these in that. In particular I've always thought it would be useful to include Pygame in the main distribution. It's been around for quite some time and is quite popular. Perhaps there are political / practical / technical reasons why it is not. I'm suspecting that may be a difficult route which is why I hadn't really suggested it before.

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The installation and deployment experience
by Stewart Watkiss 18 May '16

18 May '16

> That'll mean pre-packaged, certified and checked installers for all > sorts of weird and wacky Windows environments. So sounds like the simplest way in terms of getting the packages installed is to have a single Windows install package (msi) that can be handed to the appropriate IT administrators for them to install. By weird and wacky - I'm guessing that we need to take account of the following: * Different versions of python * Different versions of Windows * Different architectures (32bit vs 64bit) * Different python install directories * Any other things that could complicate this? The problem then comes with helping the teacher / IT administrator choose the right package. For example one of the issues with installing Pygame is that the website lists 8 different installers which only go up to Python 3.2. Bitbucket has 10 different installers (+10 zip files) which go up to python 3.4 (but not 3.5 which is the latest Python release for Windows). Potentially there could be a huge number of packages which could be confusing. The following may help make this a little easier: * Restrict the versions of Python that are supported. I think it makes sense to only use Python 3.x for the "official" education install. Or perhaps even be more specific and recommend only specific versions of Python for use in education (perhaps current and 1 previous version - eg. 3.5 and 3.4)? * Or perhaps have the installer look for different versions and install accordingly (not sure how easy this is to implement, assuming sticking with version 3 then I expect it's more about installing into the right folders than having multiple versions of the modules). I don't actually have any experience with creating Windows install files, but it doesn't look it should be too difficult - famous last words :-). I've installed Visual Studio, so I'm going to take a look at that myself - although if anyone already has any guides / best practices / suggestions then please let me know. So the next thing would be to decide what packages we would include - I'll leave this discussion to run first. This is just my thoughts - please let me know if you think there is a better way or if you have any suggestions. Stewart

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