[Edu-sig] Re: Edu-sig digest, Vol 1 #239 - 5 msgs

Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:02:04 -0800 (PST)

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. re: diSessa's "computational media", and Boxer
> (Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com)
>    2. Re: re: diSessa's "computational media", and
> Boxer (Fred Yankowski)
>    3. Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Timothy
> Wilson)
>    4. Re: Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Todd
> Whittaker)
>    5. Re: Python comes to Henry Sibley H.S. (Timothy
> Wilson)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:02:18 -0600
> From: Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com
> To: edu-sig@python.org 
> Subject: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational
> media", and Boxer
> 
> Fred writes -
> 
> >I recently read diSessa's "Changing Minds" book,
> based (if I recall
> >correctly) on a recommendation by someone on this
> edu-sig list.  The
> >book is excellent, with an extended argument for
> the value and
> >possibility of "computational literacy" and
> "computational media"
> >which should interest most edu-sig participants.
> 
> Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:
> 
> http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html
> 
> Shall read at least that far.
> 
> >diSessa's practical experience comes from using
> software called
> >"Boxer" to teach elementary and high school
> students principles of
> >math, science, and (secondarily) programming.  
> 
> Sounds like Kirby territory.
> 
> Certainly will be interesting to see how diSessa's
> "Changing" and Kirby's
> "Overcome" takes intersect/diverge.
> 
> >The user interface of Boxer is at once brilliant,
> and awkward and unfamiliar.
> 
> >Boxer applications are structured as a hierarchy of
> "boxes" (hence the name)
> >which are displayed as nested windows on a GUI
> screen.  Boxer's
> >command language, which appears as text statements
> inside boxes, is
> >based on Logo.  
> 
> As usual, my own take is intuitive, and experiential
> -  not formal and
> studied.
> 
> But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI
> intensive. I posted up
> a SnapPea geometry exploration tool cite quite
> recently.  Had a fully
> developed GUI, and than developed the Python
> scripting.  Not
> an unusual progression.  Why is this happening? 
> Does the availabiltiy
> of Python somehow supercede the reasons behind the
> GUI intensive
> approach.  I think, in many ways, yes.  
> 
> In a GUI intensive envrionment the GUI has the upper
> hand, not the student.
> How do you study and measure that power
> relationship. I accept my inituition. 
> Students undertand that they are dependant on the
> GUI - and enthusiasm is 
> sapped.  I still like the thirty line's of straight
> text which can be run as a
> 
> chat program
> as "python chattext.py". Or is a straight-forward
> IDE like a IDLE.  It works, 
> and is 
> "real" programming  - is better than box
> hierarchies, talking paperclips, and 
> all
> down that road.  Not purer - I am not trying to be a
> purist.  Just have my own
> 
> sense of what get kids excited. And this is all 95%
> about getting kids 
> motivated 
> and excited. Feeling grown-up is certainly one such
> thing.
> .  
> So it is difficult in my mind for a Python
> educational curriculum to pick up 
> much
> from what came before, because in doing so one will
> be tending to dilute
> what Python somewhat uniquely brings to the party. 
> 
> 
> >  2) I'm wondering if anyone else here has a
> similar interest in
>  >    Boxer, and would like to explore the
> possibility of getting a
>  >    Boxer-like system working on the PC, perhaps
> using Python as the
>  >   implementation language and a system like
> VPython for the
>  >  graphical component (which I haven't discussed).
> 
> I certainly think we should indulge and excite kids
> by letting them get at
> good graphics in the context of both math and
> programming education.
> And do think VPython is quite well suited for that
> role.
> 
> ART
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:38:21 -0600
> From: Fred Yankowski <fred@ontosys.com>
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] re: diSessa's "computational
> media", and Boxer
> 
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 02:02:18PM -0600,
> Arthur_Siegel@rsmi.com wrote:
> > Found chapters 1& 2 online in pdf at:
> > http://www.soe.berkeley.edu/boxer/papers.html
> 
> Thank you for that URL.  I completely forgot to
> provide any references
> in my original message.
> 
> The first two chapters of the book outline diSessa's
> thesis and give
> some very brief examples of Boxer, but miss some
> compelling stories of
> how kids used Boxer.
> 
> > But I do tend to resist any approach that is GUI
> intensive.
> 
> I think I understand you.  I have similar
> preferences:
> 
>   good:  Linux /etc/whatever.conf files
>   fair:  Win32 control panels, preferences, tabs,
> advanced options, ...
> 
>   good:  Hacking Java code in Emacs, working
> directly on files
>   fair:  Editing methods in a VisualAge for Java GUI
> 
>   good:  Hacking Python code in Emacs, running from
> bash
>   fair:  Editing Python code in IDLE or PythonWin
> 
>   good:  Working directly on web application script
> files
>   fair:  Editing Zope "methods" "thru the web"
> 
> But, then again, I've been programming for over 25
> years.  (Back then
> we coded everything on punch cards, and we LIKED
> IT!) 
=== message truncated ===

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