[Edu-sig] quantum instance

Kirby Urner urnerk at qwest.net
Sun Sep 18 22:44:26 CEST 2005

> My other problem is this:
> Did somebody forgot to mention to me, pre-Python2.2, that the language was
> missing a fundamental construct for the proper configuration of the proper
> API framework?

Apparently many programmers felt this lack, including Guido, and added the
missing capability.

To answer your question:  yes, no one thought to tell you -- not clear what
that'd have accomplished.  It's your responsibility to read the PEPs.

> And allowed me go about my business of constructing improper API
> frameworks - because that is what the language supported.
> Is it the same somebodies who jump at me when I question the new Python
> who would have jumped at me if I had questioned the old?  It often seems 
> so.

You're free to raise objections at any point along the way, no?  Others do,
and often in tones less dark and paranoid, which is probably why they
sometimes get more attention.  

I think you effectively self-marginalize by casting yourself as this
always-marginalized kibitzer.  You're too interested in the soap opera (real
or imagined), seem less attentive to real engineering considerations. 

You seem reluctant to believe that real engineering could be a basis for
changes to Python, prefer to invoke images of secret cabals and
behind-the-scenes machinations.  I chalk this up to personality and

> Is information hiding also part of community building?
> If so, what is being hidden now?

You'd have to be on py-dev or be reading the PEPs to get a sense of what's
in the pipeline (maybe you are -- I'm not at the moment, but from time to
time dive into the PEPs).  I mentioned after Europython about how yield, and
hence generators, are getting more features.

I think the process whereby Python Enhancement Proposals get submitted and
hashed through *is* a vital part of Python-the-community and even
Python-the-language, and should be taught, including right from the start,
when introducing it to newbies.

By design, I don't think edu-sig is the place to hash through the merits of
this or that PEP.  Other mechanisms have been established.  So if you
confine your kibitzing to edu-sig, then it's perfectly fine that your
objections don't get a lot of attention.  This is not the place for them, if
their purpose is to influence Python's evolution and direction.  

On the other hand, I think edu-sig *is* the place to voice pedagogical
concerns, i.e. to talk about how we might best teach the language to others.

I think you've given us a lot of valuable input along these lines over the
years and I'm glad you've been generous with your time.  Plus there's Pygeo
itself, which showcases the capabilities of Python/VPython pretty
effectively -- a great advertisement for why Python is such a valuable asset
(including the part about you learning it on your own, having come from
another walk of life besides professional programming -- a good story, all
the better because true).


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