[Edu-sig] Some thoughts on RurPle / TurTle

[francois schnell]

> > Andre Roberge schrieb:
>
> Also, because rur-ple basic instructions [move(), pick_beeper(),
> put_beeper(), turn_left(), turn_off()] are very limited, they are
> easier to learn and build from, I think, than the corresponding turtle
> graphics where one has to contend with arbitrary rotations and
> arbitrary step lengths right from the start...  This is, I believe,
> one advantage of having a "closed universe", at least at the
> beginning.


Personally I disagree.

First I was very attracted by Rur-ple sleek look and tested it a month ago.

Even if the app itself is great I found I was disturbed with important
things for me:

- the representation of Rur-ple "world" is from above, with what you call
avenues and streets, unfortunately in this representation the robot is
represented from the side and you mix this two spatial representations
together which  I think is miss-leading.

Do you think it's possible to be consistent in a future version (as an
option ?) : if the world is seen from above the robot is also seen from
above in this world (and not from the side). ?

- For the sake of simplicity you've decided that the robot can only turn
left but never right. For me it makes Rur-ple quite "silly" and above all
this apparent "simplicity" (you can't go right) is generating *complexity*
quickly.

For  example if rur-ple want to climb a simple step he must do in your
example:

---

# climb step
turn_left()
move()
turn_left()
turn_left()
turn_left()
move()
move()

---

For me It is not simple and intuitive and is by far more difficult than a
"Logo" approach.
(also even if I build  a turn_right() function I'll see Rur-ple going left,
left, left )

   However, not having had the benefit of
> reading your book, my *guess*  (and it is only a guess) is that the
> more initially restrictive environment of rur-ple provides an easier
> learning environment at the very beginning.  But I could well be
> wrong!


I think a  robot  environment is a valid and a good way to learn Python but
I don't agree when you compare Rur-ple as a more powerful alternative to the
concepts behind Logo:

http://aroberge.blogspot.com/2006/04/thoughts-on-shuttleworth-summit.html

The principles behind behind Logo are powerful, it's not just a little
turtle to move around to produce graphics.

For example you could say to a kid that a circle is "simply" x**2 + y**2 =
R**2  ...
but with the turtle you can also have a more  internal (and "kinesthésique"
representation) by saying that a circle is also: move, turn a little and
repeat the same... It gives to a kid an intuition/experience of differential
math (essential in science) at a very young age.

I really advise people to read/re-read the "mindstorms" book which is
essential to understand what are the math and consturctivits concepts behind
the turtle:
http://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/products/books.html

Ok I've finished my "french blood" complaints, sorry for being out-spoken,
apart from that I think Rur-ple is great :)

francois

Peace logo: how appropriate!
>
> > I definitely feel that both approaches are valuable and can and
> > should live in parallel. I'm in no way a fundamantalist. (I just had
> > to decide what approach to use for my book - and there of course
> > I have to propose lessons in a well designed sequence ...)
>
> I think that having different people exploring different approaches
> may yield better ideas in the end (as long as some communication takes
> place between the two)
>
> > (I wonder if this topic were interesting also for the edu-sig list?)
> >
> I think it might be.  You have my permission to forward this message
> directly to the list if you wish, and we can continue this discussion
> in public, hopefully generating comments from others.
>
> > This all said with only a very superfical impression of your system.
> > Nevertheless I'd be intersted in translating it to German, if nobody
> > else will undertake it, but i must ask you to understand that I'll
> > certainly will not have time to do it before September/October.
>
> I understand and appreciate the tentative offer of a translation.
>
> > I hope that I expressed myself clearly enough - i fear my English is not
>
> > elaborate enough for such more 'philosophical' discussions.
>
> I believe that your English is just as good as mine, and I feel it is
> more than adequate to have these type of discussions (however
> frustrating it might feel when we are looking for the  appropriate
> English idiom to express our thoughts.)
>
> And if anyone complains, challenge them to carry a conversation in
> German if they are not happy!  (I'll do the same for French ;-)
>
> Thanks for your comments and your xturtle work!
>
> Regards,
>
> André
>
>
>
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