[Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000

[John Zelle]

On Saturday 16 September 2006 9:35 am, Arthur wrote:
> John Zelle wrote:
> >no, No, NO. I never said this. At least I didn't intend to. Please see the
> > top of the message where I ask (virtually beg) for clarification on what
> > you are saying. I thought you were saying that it's OK to teach
> > programming in a math class, because it's being used there to motivate
> > and illustrate mathematical concepts.
>
> no, No, No. ;)
>
> I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required
> math education is eminently sensible.  Among other things is a statement
> that computer programming - in some sense of the word - *is* for
> everyone.  Despite all my silliness and "freewheeling intelligence"
> there being so much noise around these issues - I try to make sure any
> position I might try to advocate passes some basic test against common
> sense.  I am satisfied this position does.
>
> And because I am satisfied it does, I don't feel the need for banners of
> any kind, for armies or - I would have thought - for confrontations.
>
> So I have always been confused why such an idea would meet with *any*
> resistance on a list such as this.  It has from day one.  Which has
> always been a clue to me that I had in some sense entered Chinatown, in
> arriving here.
>
> No - it ain't the Media Lab.
>
> It is modest.  It is unconnected with Revelation, New Ages, and Second
> Comings. It brings us to no new dimensions.  It actually brings no new
> great amount of stature to the geeks of the world, or to the software
> industry.
>
> It must be on the right track.

And I can't see how any reasonable person could be against that, which I why I 
thought you were saying something else ;-). By all means, let's agree that 
teaching some programming as part of math is a sensible enterprise. But 
that's not happening at the moment, at least not around here. I don't see 
this as a reason to denigrate the computer scientists who are trying to 
teach "intro to programming" courses as another entry point into this 
important mathematical domain. If the students have not yet learned 
programming but have already learned basic algebra, then an introduction to 
programming seems the next logical step. There is no conspiracy of CS 
academia to keep programming out of the secondary schools. College CS 
programs are just dealing with the situation on the ground as we find it.

Let me add just one more thought before signing off on this thread 
permanently. This undercurrent of "introduction to programming" as somehow 
being a poor way to teach programming is still bothering me. It _is_ true 
that mathematics is all about algorithms and CS has undeniable mathematical 
roots. But the vast history of mathematics is mostly about developing and 
using notations that are for use by humans (with some obvious attempts at 
mechanization along the way). The arrival on the scene of the modern general 
purpose computer is quite new. It seems to me there is still room for 
teaching math as math and treating the translation of mathematical techniques 
and algorithms into a fully formal system (a programming language) as a 
somewhat more specialized kind of mathematics, a subfield in its own right. 
I'm not arguing that it's the right or wrong thing from a practical 
perspective, I'm just saying it's not patently ridiculous.

I am always suspicious of gurus who argue that there is "one true curriculum." 
It always seems to me that they are quick to dismiss any course that doesn't 
contain their pet topic(s) as a waste of time. I can't even count now the 
number of times that I've been told my education was useless because it 
didn't include X, where X is some fashionable topic. Yet, my useless 
education has been incredibly valuable and worthwhile to me. In my mind, 
there are so many meaningful and valuable things to learn, that we can't 
possibly begin to pack them all into a single universal curriculum. Once you 
accept that premise, you realize the important thing is that students are 
learning _something_. If students are learning mathematical and scientific 
reasoning, they'll be able to apply those skills to pick up whatever 
specialized knowledge they need later. So if current math teachers are 
uncomfortable with teaching programming, I've go no problems with them 
teaching some math that they do know well and can communicate their passion 
for. 

And before I get boxed into another corner where I am not standing, I am not 
saying that "reasoning skills" are all that matter and that's what we should 
teach. I don't think those skills can be taught, per se. They are acquired 
through the process of learning about something. You can't reason deeply 
without some deep knowledge. My point is that there are lots of great things 
to learn about that will help develop those skills. I happen to believe a 
good CS program rooted in programming is one example of a fantastic curriclum 
for doing this. But of course, I'm self-serving in thinking that. I continue 
to be part of the vast conspiracy...

--John

-- 
John M. Zelle, Ph.D.             Wartburg College
Professor of Computer Science    Waverly, IA     
john.zelle at wartburg.edu          (319) 352-8360