[group-organizers] Group-Organizers Digest, Vol 35, Issue 1

Mon Sep 17 12:13:31 CEST 2012

I'm laying down the ground work for the first Python user group in Puerto
Rico.  According to the PSF Wiki, the preferred name is Python Interest
Group, PIG or PIGgies.  So I abbreviated the new user group prPIG.  We eat
a lot of pork here and it is the most popular main course during Christmas,
so I thought it fit pretty well. Any opinions?

Kevin Shockey
Author, Founder
Financing Freedom <http://www.financingfreedom.com>
Open Producer Community: Mis Tribus <http://blog.mistribus.com/>
Twitter Feed: @shockeyk <http://www.twitter.com/shockeyk>

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:17 AM, <group-organizers-request at python.org>wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. python user group name (Jonas Geiregat)
>    2. Re: python user group name (Andrew Schoen)
>    3. Re: python user group name (Brandon Rhodes)
>    4. Re: python user group name (Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 00:08:19 +0200
> From: Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org>
> To: group-organizers at python.org
> Subject: [group-organizers] python user group name
> Message-ID: <3AF25C38-0E47-4127-AFC1-6A9F26BD0244 at geiregat.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> We're starting up a new user group for Python user in Belgium.
>
> I've tweeted some weeks ago about this idea and got some responses. We
> started to think publicly (that is on twitter) about this idea.
>
> The first thing we wanted to have was a name to identify ourselves with.
> One of the people who was active in this conversation came up with pyBug
> (Python Belgian User Group).
>
> He also suggested to move the conversation to linked in, since there
> already was an "active" thread for Belgium Python users. So we did that.
>
> We argued about the name and the first steps etc ..
>
> This week I decided that pybug would be the name, since only once person
> didn't like the name and no-one else said anything about it.
>
> So registered pybug.be and paid for it with my own money. Next thing I
> posted this in the thread. Shortly after that some people, but mainly one
> started to argue that he didn't like the name and he wanted to call out a
> poll.
>
> So we did that, and pybug came out as a winner. Lucky for me because I
> already paid for the domain.
>
> Then again some people started complaining that they didn't had a change
> to vote, mainly because they weren't actively watching the thread.
>
> At this point I started to get irritated, but because I don't want to push
> myself forward as any kind of leader or dictator I said ok, let's have
> another poll.
>
> This poll still running but it seems the name will be pythonbelgium. For
> the arguments that it is the most pythonic name. Also other people started
> joining the conversation (which is a good and wonderful thing)
>
> I dislike the name and I dislike the whole fact there's been so much
> argument about a name.
>
> So I really don't know what to do here, what are my options?
>
> Should I stick with the final outcome of the latest poll and pick
> pythonbelgium as name or would it be wrong to stand up as the one who
> started this whole thing and say, no.
>
> I don't like the name and I've already paid for a domain, I'm sorry but we
> can't poll forever just because other people start to join the
> conversation. Would this be considered as wrong ?
>
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Jonas Geiregat.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:38:53 -0500
> From: Andrew Schoen <andrew.schoen at gmail.com>
> To: Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org>, group-organizers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [group-organizers] python user group name
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGAp9=
> Mtto0ysMbia5s1eHcvOY1wpkzQdyaftmCBWwP38cVyMg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> >
> >
> > I dislike the name and I dislike the whole fact there's been so much
> > argument about a name.
> >
>
> I think a user groups name is quite important and deserving of discussion.
>  I prefer pythonbelgium because it's more descriptive of the what the group
> is actually about, which makes it easier to find for newcomers to python.
> Which IMHO is a very important role for a user group.  While pybug is a
> bit ambiguous.
>
> My local group went with PythonKC and PyKC, with that being one of the main
> reasons.
>
> Andrew Schoen
>
>
> >
> > So I really don't know what to do here, what are my options?
> >
> > Should I stick with the final outcome of the latest poll and pick
> > pythonbelgium as name or would it be wrong to stand up as the one who
> > started this whole thing and say, no.
> >
> > I don't like the name and I've already paid for a domain, I'm sorry but
> we
> > can't poll forever just because other people start to join the
> > conversation. Would this be considered as wrong ?
> >
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> >
> > Jonas Geiregat.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Group-Organizers mailing list
> > Group-Organizers at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 19:14:09 -0400
> From: Brandon Rhodes <brandon at rhodesmill.org>
> To: Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org>
> Cc: group-organizers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [group-organizers] python user group name
> Message-ID: <87haqyswu6.fsf at asaph.rhodesmill.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org> writes:
>
> > We're starting up a new user group for Python user in Belgium.
>
> CONGRATULATIONS!
>
> This is a wonderful step, and I hope that your rough start will not
> prevent this group from being a wonderful resource both for programmers
> in Belgium, and also for those who are not yet programmers but who might
> some day want to learn.
>
> (Also, I should say: your country has nice beer.  It's my favorite.)
>
> > The first thing we wanted to have was a name to identify ourselves
> > with. ...  At this point I started to get irritated, but because I
> > don't want to push myself forward as any kind of leader or dictator I
> > said ok, let's have another poll.
>
> My experience with Python Atlanta, which I led for several years until
> moving away last December, was that user groups actually *need* leaders
> who step "forward."  There are simply too many small decisions to be
> made for every one to be voted on, and too many programmers who seem
> psychologically predisposed to become angry and intransigent every time
> a debate is opened to which they are eligible to contribute.
>
> Let me contrast a "dictator" with another figure: the "host" of a party
> or event.
>
> You should think of a "dictator" as someone who exercises control that
> people cannot escape.  I would say that a "dictator" makes decisions
> that people MUST follow, because those people have been maneuvered into
> showing up for something that they then CANNOT escape - either because
> they are physically imprisoned, or because their emotional investment is
> too high for them to leave.  A dictator would take a programming meeting
> that was supposed to be about one topic, and suddenly ruin it and make
> everyone spend all the time on another topic in which no one but the
> dictator was interested.  A dictator would let someone invest hundreds
> of hours in the users group, only to then throw away their work because
> of a flippant decision to do something different.
>
> A "host" may superficially look like a dictator, since the host of a
> gathering or party will often have to make many decisions, alone, simply
> so that the party can happen: perhaps choosing the name, or perhaps the
> venue, or maybe deciding which of several speakers get scheduled this
> month.  But the host is very different:
>
> * A "host" is satisfied with their small domain of control - the little
>   event that they are managing and to which they are trying to welcome
>   others - so the host does not attempt hostile takeovers of other
>   activities if people are doing them well.
>
> * A "host" is up-front about all of their decisions, and never
>   manipulates people by needlessly changing things at the last minute,
>   or misrepresenting the kind of gathering that they are running.  They
>   say, "Thanks for your input, everyone - HERE is where we are meeting
>   this month, but please continue to let me know about your ideas."
>
> * A "host" does lots of listening, and then tries to make the decision
>   that will let the host's event be of the greatest benefit possible.
>   Sometimes the host really does not know what to choose, and can put
>   things up to a vote.  Sometimes the host knows that they lack
>   expertise, and lets, say, the JavaScript people in the group choose
>   the speaker who comes during "JavaScript Month."  But the host has to
>   remember how many quiet people, who never post on the mailing list,
>   will un-subscribe and leave forever if the mailing list - that they
>   had hoped would teach them about Python, and help them know what
>   speakers are coming next month - becomes a loud and upsetting forum
>   where a few loud people keep debating things without end.
>
> * I found that it was almost always better to delegate ("Doug tells me
>   that the meeting location is difficult for many people to reach, so
>   for July he is going to choose another meeting location for us that
>   we're going to try out for one month!") instead of asking for a vote.
>   Voting is a very poor way of making decisions, and is generally
>   appropriate only for situations where a group of people are going to
>   be FORCED to abide by a decision (maybe they live in a country and the
>   country needs laws that are binding on everyone), and so they all need
>   a say in that decision.  But in general it brings out the worst in
>   people: they become trivial, argumentative, insulting towards one
>   another, and typically a very few people invest a crazy amount of
>   energy - and might be the only ones who vote - while everyone else
>   becomes upset and then sad.
>
> Think of yourself as the host of a party: you want people to be happy,
> you want people to be helping you put up decorations and giving talks
> and helping you find good places to meet.  But all of those people are
> busy and need someone who can listen to everyone then say, "This month
> we are going to try THIS," so that people can put their energy towards
> something productive - making "THIS" as awesome as it can be this month
> - instead of putting energy towards endless debates that, by their very
> structure, mean that a large number of people are going to lose when
> each debate concludes.
>
> (As an aside: LinkedIn groups in Atlanta tended to be full of people who
> wanted to look important and argue, because, well, if they had useful
> jobs and lots of friends, they wouldn't be sitting around on LinkedIn
> trying to look big and important!  So I hope you can soon move to a more
> open forum like a Google Group, where you won't have to cater to the
> people who happen to be maintaining profiles on LinkedIn.)
>
> > ... This poll still running but it seems the name will be
> > pythonbelgium.
>
> This is a difficult situation.
>
> It would, I believe, have been within your rights to simply name the
> group "pyBug" to begin with.  Or to have stopped with the first poll and
> said "The name is PyBug, it's time to move forward and start actually
> meeting!"
>
> But since you let the second poll start, it seems to be that you should
> abide by its results - otherwise, you have done one of the things
> "dictators" do: you have invited people to invest time and effort into
> something (the second poll), then thrown it away.
>
> If I were you, I would register the second name and consider the money
> you spent to be the price of an important lesson: the lesson of what can
> happen when you have the time and energy to try hosting something, then
> decide to let other people - who are not stepping forward like you are -
> to debate endlessly about things like names.  Compared to what other
> people sometimes pay to learn this lesson, you have probably purchased
> it rather cheaply. :) (Unless you bought the domain for 20 years or
> something!)
>
> Either way, make a decision, thank everyone for participating, and move
> on towards actual meetings that people will benefit from.
>
> Try to be a "host", who listens to ideas, but then takes responsibility
> for making a decisions about when and where and how the meeting will
> take place, so that people have something concrete to contribute towards
> instead of only endless debates that only a few people can win.
>
> I will tell two stories from Python Atlanta.
>
> First, we used to meet in a big fancy classroom with a built-in
> projector and stadium seating.  The group was VERY quiet, and everyone
> sat at least two seats apart (Americans are very shy), and most people
> left after the talks were done without ever having spoken to anyone the
> whole evening.
>
> Then, one month, the big classroom was reserved, so we met at an
> informal meeting place instead, a few people brought beers, and there
> were couches and little tables and people had to sit close together.
> The group - which had ALWAYS been quiet - was so loud that I had to
> SHOUT to start the meeting!  It was wonderful!
>
> So, without asking anyone, I canceled our classroom and got us a room at
> Manuel's Tavern in Atlanta, because that was the kind of group I wanted:
> a group that had energy, and talked together and made friends, and where
> a newcomer could come and have met three or four people by the end of
> the night, instead of only hearing the talks and then slinking out
> because it was a classroom and no one felt like they could speak.
>
> I did not need a poll, or any votes: I knew what kind of meetup I
> wanted, and I was happy to take responsibility for the decision and
> explain to people why we were trying out the new meeting place, so that
> they could tell me later whether they though our meetup could be
> improved even further.
>
> My second story:
>
> Someone named JR wanted a different kind of meeting, in addition to our
> monthly meeting where everyone listened to talks: he wanted people to
> sit around with laptops, hacking on projects, and having the experienced
> Python people help the newcomers.  So once he had chosen a location and
> a night, I happily advertised it on the meetup group, and mentioned it
> at every meeting.  Only a few people came at first, but he kept doing it
> every two weeks, and after a while he had a regular group coming.  I let
> him be the "host", and make all of the decisions, for those other
> meetings - I was delegating, you see - while I kept making decisions
> only for the main meeting.  That way, each meeting had a clear mission,
> and focus, and people knew who to go ask if they had an idea about how
> one of the meetings could be better.
>
> And, delegating the other meetings to JR prevented me from getting
> stretched too thin, and it - I hope - prevented Python Atlanta from
> becoming the "Brandon Show" where everything would have had to be about
> me.
>
> I hope that you will be happy, even with a group named "pythonbelgium",
> and that your group becomes a strong and happy place where, because you
> or other organizers make a few decisions to get things going, everyone
> else is able to contribute talks and thoughts and ideas and programming
> classes, until you are a large and powerful force for education and
> camaraderie among your nation's programmers.  Good luck!
>
> (And now we get to hear about what the other organizers think of my
> crazy advice!)
>
> --
> Brandon Rhodes      brandon at rhodesmill.org
> http://rhodesmill.org/brandon
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 00:16:57 -0500
> From: "Jeff Hinrichs - DM&T" <jeffh at dundeemt.com>
> To: Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org>
> Cc: group-organizers at python.org
> Subject: Re: [group-organizers] python user group name
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CALHZEO_EmP89ZYxiLRhmCgG8x2mzgKLN0KOxYyCEbX7wpVFx_A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Jonas Geiregat <jonas at geiregat.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > We're starting up a new user group for Python user in Belgium.
> >
> > I've tweeted some weeks ago about this idea and got some responses. We
> > started to think publicly (that is on twitter) about this idea.
> >
> > The first thing we wanted to have was a name to identify ourselves with.
> > One of the people who was active in this conversation came up with pyBug
> > (Python Belgian User Group).
> >
> > He also suggested to move the conversation to linked in, since there
> > already was an "active" thread for Belgium Python users. So we did that.
> >
> > We argued about the name and the first steps etc ..
> >
> > This week I decided that pybug would be the name, since only once person
> > didn't like the name and no-one else said anything about it.
> >
> > So registered pybug.be and paid for it with my own money. Next thing I
> > posted this in the thread. Shortly after that some people, but mainly one
> > started to argue that he didn't like the name and he wanted to call out a
> > poll.
> >
> > So we did that, and pybug came out as a winner. Lucky for me because I
> > already paid for the domain.
> >
> > Then again some people started complaining that they didn't had a change
> > to vote, mainly because they weren't actively watching the thread.
> >
> > At this point I started to get irritated, but because I don't want to
> push
> > myself forward as any kind of leader or dictator I said ok, let's have
> > another poll.
> >
> > This poll still running but it seems the name will be pythonbelgium. For
> > the arguments that it is the most pythonic name. Also other people
> started
> > joining the conversation (which is a good and wonderful thing)
> >
> > I dislike the name and I dislike the whole fact there's been so much
> > argument about a name.
> >
> > So I really don't know what to do here, what are my options?
> >
> > Should I stick with the final outcome of the latest poll and pick
> > pythonbelgium as name or would it be wrong to stand up as the one who
> > started this whole thing and say, no.
> >
> > I don't like the name and I've already paid for a domain, I'm sorry but
> we
> > can't poll forever just because other people start to join the
> > conversation. Would this be considered as wrong ?
> >
> >
> > Yours sincerely,
> >
> > Jonas Geiregat.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Group-Organizers mailing list
> > Group-Organizers at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers
> >
>
> Welcome to the often colorful world of users groups!   You have encountered
> your first "Bike Shed" discussion.  see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality for details.
>
> As first mover, the decision is yours -- just know that there is always
> some dissent.  When we started I initially thought of going with OmaPy but
> was warned off because in Dutch it meant some thing else.  We ended up
> going with OmahaPython (not pep8 friendly :)
>
> When it comes down to it, just getting the ball rolling is the hard part.
>  Congratulations on that!  Encourage the dissenters to put on a
> presentation at your next meeting!
>
>
> --
> Best,
>
> Jeff Hinrichs
> 402.218.1473
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