[IPython-dev] Twisted 8...

[Brian Granger]

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Gael Varoquaux
<gael.varoquaux at normalesup.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 01, 2008 at 04:11:52PM -0700, Barry Wark wrote:
>  > Just to play devil's advocate, it's not our fault that linux distros
>  > lag behind in their packaged version of Twisted ;)
>
>  How old is the twisted 8.0 release? I have the feeling it is only a
>  couple of weeks old. In this case you can't call not packaging in a
>  stable release lagging behind, but simply normal procedure of validating
>  before shipping. Do you run mission-critical servers? Do you know what it
>  means to have a lab stopped from working if their is a flaw on the
>  packages you supported on one of your servers. I can tell you, it feels
>  very bad. So supporting leading edge is great when you are dealing with
>  your own box, and you are a devlopper happy to play around, but elsewhere
>  more conservative decisions can also make sense.

As Barry mentioned, the Twisted team is very conservative about making
changes to Twisted.  They are essentially completely test driven.
Because of this, Twisted 8.0 should make it into the the linux distros
soon enough.

>
>  > On the more practical side, why not use Python's pacakge system (i.e.
>  > setuptools) to install Twisted (I'd guess that all linux distros that
>  > would include ipython would also have setuptools packages)?
>
>  Because it s not Python's package system. It is a hack to work around the
>  fact that Python has no package system. It induces a crazy amount of side
>  effect and misbehaviors. Don't get me wrong, I use setuptools a lot, and
>  appreciate the fonctionnality they add, but I can hardly see them as a
>  robust solution for packaging. It is funny you should mention them, AFAIK
>  until this (leading edge) release, twisted itself could not be installed
>  using setuptools.

True, but the reason that Twisted 2.5.0 couldn't be installed with
setuptools is that it didn't even really use distutils :-).  That is
not a problem with setuptools, but rather some crazy decisions made
long ago by the Twisted team.  Also, it should be emphasized that
Twisted 8.0 does not _use_ setuptools for installation.  It is only
easy_installable as a tarball - just like ipython1.

>  I am not sure if you have followed, but currently setuptools are a
>  burning subject. IMHO Python packaging is a burning subject, and I am
>  tired of loosing a ridiculous amount of time to deal with different
>  version of libraries. I am afraid there is no good solution. Provide
>  several almost good solutions is a good idea, and setuptools do figure
>  amongst these, but I must admit I wouldn't force people to rely on
>  setuptools. I bites back.

I don't trust setuptools one bit myself.  It is not clear at all what
the future will bring for setuptools.  There are lots of discussions
about this going on on python-dev right now.  Time will tell.

>
>  > using a setuptools-compatible Twisted might allow the ipython1
>  > installer to install (maybe even precompiled) Twisted eggs if Twisted
>  > isn't present. Just a thought.
>
>  This kind of reasonning has brought setuptools to what it is currently:
>  something very problematic on secure and high-reliability servers. Indeed
>  you seem to be suggesting that the installer will be doing some magic to
>  download the requirements if they are not their. Think about it, this is
>  both a unacceptable security hole, and something that forbids any kind of
>  alternate packaging (for instance for automated deployement on a
>  cluster).


True, but this is perhaps getting a bit ahead of things:

1) Twisted 8.0 can be installed w/o setuptools, just like ipython1.
Linux distros will have no problem including Twisted 8.0 soon.

2) For beginning users who don't already have Twisted 8.0, being able
to easy_install Twisted 8.0 is a good thing.  Hell, that is probably
how I will install it!

Brian

>  My 2 cents,
>
>  Gaël
>
>
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