[Mailman-Developers] PHP Wrappers?

Kevin McCann kmccann at cruciverb.com
Thu Nov 17 10:10:41 CET 2005

Brad Knowles wrote:

>     Mailman is not, and never will be, the be-all and end-all of 
> community collaboration tools.  By necessity, those tools must be 
> all-encompassing, and mailing list management is just a small part of 
> the much greater picture.  You can't just take a bunch of independent 
> tools and throw them into a blender and hope that something useful 
> comes out the other end.

A design that supports independent functionality *and* integration is a 
Good Thing. It's how a lot of software works.

>     If you want the be-all and end-all of community collaboration 
> tools, you're not just barking up the wrong tree, you're in the wrong 
> bloody forest on the wrong damn planet in the wrong friggin' solar 
> system in the wrong galaxy in the wrong Universe.

A great community collaboration tool would be nice. Be-all and end-all? 
Not necessarily. Do I expect MM to become that? Of course not. But if it 
can integrate easily with a collab tool that offers most of the other 
desired functionality, then that's a good step in the right direction. 
So what exactly is wrong with that premise? If that puts me in a 
different universe, well, I have a lot of company out here.

>     Mailman will move towards greater integration with database tools, 
> yes.  But it is not now, nor will it ever be, the be-all and end-all 
> of community collaboration tools.

Your first sentence above: that is all I'm looking for!  I don't want or 
expect MM to be a be-all and end-all tool! I want it to be able to be 
PART of a very good solution. I hope to see that in MM3. Why can't you 
understand that?

Please read the above, three times, just to make sure you got it.

>>  I have been watching this project closer than I'd like to admit for 5
>>  years. You're happy with the status quo, I'd prefer to try to get 
>> things
>>  happening.
>     Once again, you have mis-characterized the situation to fit your 
> own agenda.

No I have not.

>     It's not that I'm "happy with the status quo", it's that I'm a 
> realist and I understand that short of being able to take people like 
> Barry and Tokio and pay them money to do little but work on Mailman 
> full-time, we can't expect to see a Universe of change overnight.

Once again, paying money for Barry (and others) to do work on MM3 is 
precisely what I tried to arrange. Availability was always the main issue.

>     This is going to take some time.  More time than I would like, 
> much more time than Barry would like, and obviously a lot more time 
> than you would like.
>     The question is what are you going to do to try to help that 
> situation, or are you going to continue to just bluster and make noise?
>     Actions speak louder than words.  So, let's see some action.

What the? I really don't understand your hostility. And you haven't read 
a word I've written have you? Understand this:  I have put A LOT of time 
and effort into trying to move MM3 develoment forward through funding. 
These are ACTIONS, whether you recognize it or not. The funding hasn't 
happened due to Barry's schedule. I don't begrudge him for that, but 
that is the reality. It's not his fault, but you can't blame me for not 

>     If you can't come up with the money to pay for Barry to work on 
> Mailman3 full-time, then come up with code to fix all the problems 
> you've outlined.  If you can't come up with code, then come up with 
> something else to help break your perceived logjam.

I obviously can't get through to you, can I?  READ THIS:  The money was 
there, the availability wasn't. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

Brad, try treating people a) like you would have them treat you, and b) 
as if they were in the same room as you. If you're already doing that, 
then I guess you're a rude masochist. Really, I suppose I'm the 
masochist because I'm banging my head against a wall here, at least 
where you're concerned.

You know, I'm reminded by all of this that no good deed goes unpunished. 
I did a lot of lobbying for MM3 development funding. It didn't work out 
because of Barry's schedule, but Lord knows I put in the effort. And I'd 
still like to see MM3 happen. And for this I get vitriolic sewage. Give 
your head a flippin' shake.


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