[Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
Lloyd F. Tennison
lists at viplist.us
Wed Sep 21 09:41:11 CEST 2005
Here is the text of the emails. They are pushing the BondedSender like crazy
- especially since I received an email direct from BondedSender.
at the address I only used with this ticket to hotmail.
An awful lot of passing the buck and saying the same thing over and over
again.
____________________________________________
I am very sorry, but we are not able to discuss the details of the
filtering strategies or specific filters which MSN Hotmail utilizes in
order to combat unwanted e-mail. Our filters are highly confidential and
discussion of the specific filter rules would eventually render them
useless for all of our Hotmail mailbox owners.
For information on common delivery questions please refer to the Hotmail
Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/. MSN Hotmail has
also created the Smart Network Data Services program. This is a service
that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and partners
to reduce spam originating from their IP. http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/.
Additionally you may want to investigate the Microsoft Sender ID program.
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.msp
x. While neither the SNDS nor Sender ID will enable emails from you
domain to bypass our filtering system they will help in the fight against
spam.
That being said, to help minimize future issues please investigate
signing up for Bonded Sender at http://www.bondedsender.com.
Thank you,
Scott
Hotmail Technical Support
-----Original Message-----
From: Lloyd F. Tennison [mailto:munged]
Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 5:01 PM
To: GEST HM Inbox
Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
My emails are getting blocked by you again. I do not understand what is
going on. These are the same clients, the same lists - with almost no
changes and you are changing what is going on. I have been sending this
same way for over 18 months now with the same type emails. The only
people that have added themselves have done so through the websites, with
confirmed opt-in.
I have only sent three of my lists and I usually have seven on Tuesdays
without any problems. I would really appreciate getting this solved,
especially since there has not been any changes at my end. There seems to
be no reason or logic as to what is going on and are mutual users are getting
upset.
>
> Hi Lloyd,
>
> I(tm)ll try to answer as much as I can for you:
>
> randomtestacct at hotmail.com is able to receive messages that might
otherwise be blocked by
> BrightMail, but the final destination (Inbox or JMF) is still a
function of our filtering. Since the
> account does not maintain a Domain Safe List, it isn(tm)t uncommon for
test messages to end up in
> JMF.
>
> I can(tm)t offer help with Symantec since they are a different company
with different policies. Usually,
> they will tell you if they are filtering your emails, but that is up
to them.
>
> Sender ID is a helpful program, but not necessary for your purposes.
>
> The Junk Mail Reporting program is a helpful addition to SNDS since it
will provide additional details
> for you"this is a particularly effective way of cleaning up mailing
lists. The program does require
> that you have a company website, that you provide the JMRPP with an
official Point of Contact, and
> that your site has an opt-out link or visible opt-out process. If you
are interested in enrolling, please
> provide the details required (or information on how to find those
details) and we will forward your
> request to the JMRPP team: Once approved, they will contact you with
further information.
>
> The benefit of Bonded Sender is that it allows you to bypass our
filters (including BrightMail) and
> deliver your messages directly into your recipient(tm)s Inbox. On rare
occasion an error occurs and a
> message will be routed to JMF. When that happens we ask that you
contact us ASAP so that we
> can rectify that issue. Microsoft and Return Path have a very good
working relationship and we are
> able to resolve these rare instances quickly. For more details,
however, I would have to refer you to
> www.bondedsender.com.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Shawn
>
>
> MSN Hotmail Technical
> Support
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Lloyd F. Tennison [mailto:munged]
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:45 PM
> To: GEST HM Inbox
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
>
> It is interesting that it went to your junk mail folder as it did not
on my test accounts and two on the
> list itself.
>
> Symantec will not talk to anyone regarding their technology and/or who
is listed. According to the
> three different departments there is no way to find out who or what is
listed and why. I was told the
> only time that they give that information is in court.
>
> I cannot participate in the Microsoft Sender ID program as it uses SPF
and SPF cannot be used
> when you forward emails to other domains.
> On your Junk Mail reporting, I would appreciate learning more about
that program.
> Question, if I do join the bonded sender program, bite the bullet and
spend the $2750, does that
> mean my emails will then be whitelisted and delivered to the inbox as
a normal means of operation?
> (All things remaining the same as when was certified.)
> I do not really understand what your SNDS program is. It does not give
anything that can be used
> to diagnose or troubleshoot. It merely says how much mail you
received.
> This is what the FAQ's state:
> Benefits for the Service Provider
> * Reduction in bandwidth costs
> How?
> * Alternative to port 25 blocking for those unwilling or unable to do
so
> Do not understand what that has to do with anything.
> * Protection of the network(tm)s reputation from being tarnished as a
source of spam
> By telling you the number of messages sent? I suppose knowing how many
complaints is
> something, but not knowing source, etc makes it hard to verify.
> * Prevention of legitimate customers being blocked due to the actions
of spammers
> How?
> * Gratitude of customers for being proactive in reducing spam and
improving the security of
> their machines and those around them, particularly ones coerced into
sending spam
> How does this do any of this? All I can see is that it tells you how
many complaints there are -
> and that is a ficticiously high number because the Junk mail and the
delete buttons are next to
> each other and there are false positives when someone clicks the wrong
button. I have done so,
> and I am sure everyone has done it. (But that is the same for almost
every web-based email client.)
> If I am missing something here - please let me know, but I do not see
how that helps me with any
> information other than complaints and filters -both of which at this
time I cannot see or do anything
> about. I do see that you are considering a SPAM notification and that
would be great.
> Again, thank you for your time helping me to help my clients.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 11:10:43 -0700 From: "GEST HM Inbox"
> <gesthm at microsoft.com>
>
> Hello Lloyd,
>
>
> We received your message at randomtestacct at hotmail.com. This
message was
> delivered to the Junk Mail folder in this account.I am unable to
> determine what specifically within the content of your message is
> causing our filters to view it as unsolicited e-mail.In general,
> however, I can explain what happens with our filters.Below is the
> information that is needed to avoid being filtered to the Junk Mail
> folders.
>
>
> For information on common delivery questions please refer to the
Hotmail
> Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/.MSN Hotmail has
> also created the Smart Network Data Services program.This is a service
> that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and
> partners to reduce spam originating from their IP.
> http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/. Additionally you may want to
> investigate the Microsoft Sender ID program. While neither the SNDS
nor
> Sender ID will enable emails from you domain to bypass our filtering
> system they will help in the fight against spam.
>
>
> The message sender needs to make sure that the communication sent to
the
> Hotmail accounts conforms to our standards of e-mail.This information
> can be found at:
http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp
>
>
>
> If you've gone through the standards and feel that you are in
compliance
> with them, but are still getting filtered to the Junk Mail Folders,
then
> in general I can tell you a couple of things about how we do spam
> filtering.
>
>
> We use the Symantec Brightmail spam filter to help determine which IP
> addresses to block, and which messages to sort to the Junk e-mail
> folder. Working together we can determine whether your message is
being
> blocked by Brightmail or not. We do not control the list, but we do
> abide by the recommendations. If you are being blocked or filtered due
> to the recommendation of the Brightmail filter the only way to stop
this
> behavior is to contact Symantec and get them to stop filtering your
> individual emails to us. If you wish to be unblocked by Symantec you
> must work with Symantec, and not MSN Hotmail, to have the block
removed.
>
>
>
> Until Symantec goes through the process of investigation and renders a
> decision on whether they will keep blocking your emails or not, there
> will be nothing I, or anyone else at MSN Hotmail, can do to change the
> delivery behavior of your messages. In addition, there is nothing that
> I, or anyone else at MSN Hotmail, can do to affect their decision.
> Symantec is a completely separate company from Microsoft and MSN
Hotmail
> and their decisions are intentionally kept out of the hands of our
> staff.
>
>
> If Symantec does not have your email on their filter list, but it is
> still being filtered, then you are going to need to either have your
> customers add the domain that you're sending the mail from to their
own
> Safe List inside of their Hotmail accounts, or else investigate the
> Bonded Sender program. At Hotmail we do not maintain our own white list.
> However, Microsoft accepts e-mail messages that may be allowed
to
> bypass some of Microsoft's filtering technologies from organizations
> that are approved by the Bonded Sender Program
(www.bondedsender.com),
> powered by Return Path and certified by TRUSTe.
>
>
> Or you can enroll in a new program that we are offering. The program
is
> called Junk Mail Reporting Partner Program. This is not a whitelisting
> program. It will not guarantee that e-mails from your IP will not be
> blocked.
>
>
> This program is a long-term solution that we offer as recourse for
> senders who are blocked because Junk Mail Reporting.Enrollment in this
> program will benefit you as a sender because it will keep your e-mail
> lists updated and populated with interested MSN Hotmail Customers who
> want to receive your e-mails. It will remove those MSN Hotmail Customers
> who do not want to receive e-mails from your company.
>
>
> We do have a few requirements before we can allow a company to join
this
> program.
>
>
>
> The Sender:
>
> * has a legitimate website and opt-out links
>
> * may have been involved in router-based blocking based on user
> complaints
>
> * has expressed a desire to continue working with MSN to resolve
> issues
>
>
> I hope that you will investigate joining this program.I believe that it
> will offer a valuable service to our mutual Hotmail customers.
>
>
> Please let me know if you have any further questions.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Christian MSN Hotmail Team
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Lloyd F. Tennison [mailto:munged]
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 9:28 AM
> To: GEST HM Inbox
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
>
> Email which you will be receiving shortly has the subject of:
>
>
> Tonight: Prive/Roe | Saturday: All night at 1015
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:58:07 -0700
>
> From: "GEST HM Inbox" <gesthm at microsoft.com>
>
>
> Hello Lloyd,
>
> 1 or 2 mailing list should be fine.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Toan N.
>
> MSN Hotmail Technical Support
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> From: Lloyd F. Tennison [mailto:munged]
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:45 PM
>
> To: GEST HM Inbox
>
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
> I can do that. How many different lists do you want me to add you to?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:36:54 -0700
>
> From: "GEST HM Inbox" <gesthm at microsoft.com>
>
> Hello Lloyd,
>
> In sending us a sample message, it would be best to simply add
>
> randomtestacct at hotmail.com to your mailing list, and then reply to
this
>
> thread with a notification that the message has been sent as well as
the
>
> message's subject line so that we can locate it. This will generate
>
> message headers just like those generated on any common mailing, thus
>
> giving us the best picture of what is happening in this issue.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Shawn
>
> MSN Hotmail Technical Support
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Lloyd F. Tennison [mailto:munged]
>
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:29 PM
>
> To: GEST HM Inbox
>
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
> I believe I already abide by the standards in the URL you sent and any
>
> standards of newsletter mailing that I am aware of. I only use
>
> confirmed opt- in and have both an unsubscribe and postal address for
>
> removal at the bottom of every email.
>
> On the sending to you some sample emails - would you prefer that I add
>
> you to one or more of the mailing lists and then you can see the
emails
>
> directly for yourselves? I know that I am tested periodically by
ISP's,
>
> etc. as I see someone subscribe and then a few days later that address
>
> unsubscribe and a new one subscribe from the same IP address. Please
>
> let me know what you would prefer, as I do not wish to be considered
>
> SPAM in any sense of the word.
>
> I work very hard for my clients to provide them with a quality service
>
> and make sure that the emails are only sent to those who request them
>
> and remove those who wish immediately. Mailman does so automatically
by
>
> itself, and I do the extra steps as mentioned below to purge invalid
>
> addresses.
>
> On the forwarding, I use the SPAM filter blocks that I submitted
below.
>
> If there are any other ones that you might suggest I would appreciate
>
> knowing. In addition, not listed before I also use SURBL to prevent
>
> receiving SPAM. None of the messages that are triggered actually are
>
> delivered as they are refused before they reach the server - in the
>
> ACL's.
>
> Please let me know whatever additional information I may give you to
>
> make sure this problem does not happen again. I can forward you data
>
> from the two other major ISP's mail service companies on their testing
>
> and whitelisting of my server, if you wish (AOL and Yahoo.) I know
that
>
> you do things differently, but at least that would show my diligence
and
>
> how long I have been doing this.
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Lloyd Tennison
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674
>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:01:43 -0700
>
> From: "GEST HM Inbox" <gesthm at microsoft.com>
>
> Hello Lloyd,
>
> Your IP is blocked by MSN Hotmail because the vast majority of all the
>
> email that you send to us has been judged to be spam by MSN Hotmail's
>
> internal filtering system. One possible explanation for this is the
>
> automatic forwarding of unfiltered inbound messages, including spam
>
> messages, to MSN/Hotmail addresses. This block lasts for 24 to 48
hours
>
> and then is removed. If again the large majority of all the email from
>
> the IP is marked as spam it is blocked again, and so on indefinitely.
>
> Please confirm that your emails comply with MSN Hotmail's technical
>
> standards. This information can be found at:
>
> http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp.
>
> It will also be helpful to send example emails directly to
>
> randomtestacct at hotmail.com so that we can examine the types of emails
>
> that you send. This will help us in our investigation.When you do
>
> this please send us the subject lines of emails you have sent. Please
>
> make sure that these emails are as functionally similar to the types
of
>
> emails that originate from your system, as any deviation from this may
>
> hinder our ability to investigate your problem.
>
> We have performed a manual unblocking of your IP for this purpose.
>
> Please note that our filters are automated, and they will reinstitute
an
>
> IP block if they see similar activity in the future.
>
> For information on common delivery questions please refer to the
Hotmail
>
> Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/.MSN Hotmail has
>
> also created the Smart Network Data Services program.This is a service
>
> that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and
>
> partners to reduce spam originating from their IP.
>
> http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/. Additionally you may want to
>
> investigate the Microsoft Sender ID program.
>
>
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.msp >
> x. While neither the SNDS nor Sender ID will enable emails from you > >
domain to bypass our filtering system they will help in the fight > >
against spam. > > Additionally you should consider evaluating the Bonded
Sender program. > > Bonded Sender (www.bondedsender.com) is the only
White
Listing service > > to which we subscribe. > > The only other way to
ensure that your customers will receive your mail > > in their Inboxes
would be to request that they each add your domain to > > their Safe List
within their Hotmail mailboxes. Though this seems to be > > cumbersome,
several other mail senders have been able to do with without > > too much
trouble by putting the steps into the mail they send (usually > > at the
very top or very bottom) or putting the announcement on their web > >
site. > > Attached is a .doc with screenshots and instructions showing how
this > > may be done. Please feel free to distribute that information in >
> whatever way you feel will help resolve this issue. > > Thank you, > >
Shawn > > MSN Hotmail Technical Support
> >
----- Original Message -----
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:06:17 +0200
From: Brad Knowles <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
At 5:24 PM -0700 2005-09-20, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote:
> Has anyone else here had the same problems? It all started when they did
a
> software service upgrade last Wednesday night (They told me they did
indeed
> do a upgrade then.)
The FAQ entry at
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.042.htp>
is not specifically about hotmail, but is generally applicable to any
large-scale mail provider.
It is useful to try to gather more information on this problem
from other list administrators. However, please keep in mind that,
even if you do discover that there is some sort of major problem
(either wide-spread, or specific to your site), there may be little
or nothing you can do about it.
--
Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
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