[Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

Brad Knowles brad at stop.mail-abuse.org
Sun Sep 17 10:32:25 CEST 2006

At 6:10 AM +0000 9/17/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all
>  Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are
>  serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and
>  that is unfortunate.

What parts of the Mailman community can only access this mailing list 
(and the archives) via services like Gmane, as opposed to subscribing 
to this mailing list, and reading our public archives that we 
maintain on python.org and at mail-archive.com?

Please tell me what parts of the Mailman community are having this 
heinous crime committed against their person.

The lists are open to public subscription (we don't even require 
approval), and one of the very few things we ask is that people don't 
make their own copies of those archives publicly accessible (and 
abusable), and that people don't set up their own public gateways 
which allow anyone to post.

If people want to post to the list, they should do so as a subscriber 
to the list, and if they want to see the content of this list then 
they should either subscribe or read the public archives.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how this is such a heinous crime.

>  Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows
>  me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example
>  in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.

I don't see where Gmane has a God-given right to carry any content 
they want, and to do whatever they want with that content.

Their right to carry content stops where it impacts our right to 
choose where our content is being distributed or what is being done 
with that content, and to require that anyone who wishes to 
redistribute our content make sure that they do so by our rules.

When they do so in violation of our rules (and theirs), that's "game over".

>                                                        You've blown this
>  issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it
>  simply is not.

I think maybe you need to go have another talk with Lars.  When I 
apprised him of the situation and asked that they stop carrying our 
content, he didn't put up a fuss or a fight -- he agreed that they 
had been carrying our content without our approval, in violation of 
our policies and theirs, and he terminated the gateway.

Frankly, that exchange says far more positive things about Gmane than 
you've done, and the more you rabid you get, and the more you rant 
endlessly about this subject, the less likely we are to ever 
reconsider this position in a positive light.  After all, if Gmane is 
likely to attract people that behave in that manner, then maybe it 
really is a better thing that we don't allow them to ever re-enable 
their gateway.

IMO, what you've shown us so far is a pretty poor advertisement for 
Gmane.  If you want to continue to drag them down with you, then you 
don't leave me a whole lot of choice in terms of what kinds of action 
I can take to deal with that kind of behaviour.

If nothing else, the subject is completely off-topic, and does not 
belong on this list.

Brad Knowles, <brad at stop.mail-abuse.org>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

     -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
     Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See <http://www.lopsa.org/>.

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