[Numpy-discussion] NEP process update

Ralf Gommers ralf.gommers at gmail.com
Wed Dec 6 03:43:37 EST 2017

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:39 PM, <josef.pktd at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Ralf Gommers <ralf.gommers at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> - NEPs are really part of the development process, not an output for
>> >> end-users -- they're certainly useful to have available as a
>> >> reference, but if we're asking end-users to look at them on a regular
>> >> basis then I think we've messed up and should improve our actual
>> >> documentation :-)
>> >> - NEPs have a different natural life-cycle than numpy itself. Right
>> >> now, if I google "numpy neps", the first hit is the 1.13 version of
>> >> the NEPs, and the third hit is someone else's copy of the 1.9 version
>> >> of the NEPs. What you actually want in every case is the latest
>> >> development version of the NEPs, and the idea of "numpy 1.13 NEPs"
>> >> doesn't even make sense, because NEPs are not describing a specific
>> >> numpy release.
>> >
>> >
>> > The last two points are good arguments, I agree that they shouldn't
>> serve as
>> > documentation. A separate repo has downsides though (discoverability
>> etc.),
>> > we also keep our dev docs within the numpy repo and you can make
>> exactly the
>> > same argument about those as about NEPs. So I'd still suggest keeping
>> them
>> > where they are. Or otherwise move all development related docs.
>> Are these the dev docs you're thinking of?
>> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-dev/dev/index.html
indeed. possibly governance as well.

>> Regarding discoverability, right now it looks like the only way to
>> find the latest NEPs on google is by searching for something like
>> "numpy-dev neps", which is pretty obscure. (It took me 4 tries to find
>> something that worked. "numpy neps" seemed to work, but actually sent
>> me to an out-of-date snapshot.) In Python, the PEP web pages are
>> rebuilt on something like a 6 hour timer, and it's actually super
>> annoying, because it means that when someone posts to the list like
>> "hey, I just pushed a new version, tell me what you think", everyone
>> goes and finds the old stale version, sometimes people start
>> critiquing it, ... it's just confusing all around. So I do think we
>> want to make sure there's some simple way to find them, and that it
>> leads to the latest version, not a stale build or an old snapshot.
>> Moving NEPs + development docs to their own dedicated repo would
>> resolve this and seems like a plausible option to me. We could
>> probably do better than we are now with the regular docs too. Though
>> the experience with PEPs does make me a bit nervous about having
>> versioned snapshots of the NEPs in all our old versioned manuals
>> (which have tons of google-juice).
> maybe I have a different google, but the first search result for me for
> "numpy nep"
> is https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy-dev/neps/index.html
> developer guides are on top here
> https://docs.scipy.org/doc/
> using the link for "Complete Numpy Manual"  on that page has
> dev docs and neps listed.
> But I don't see "numpy doc standard" which I usually need to google
> and the search leads to github page for it.

These have recently been moved to


> Searching for specific items leads often to older versions in google and
> needs
> manual interventions, e.g. edit the version number in link
> Aside: My main occasion for reading Peps (besides quoting ZEN) is to follow
> the links in the python what's new pages, e.g. https://docs.python.org/
> 3/whatsnew/3.6.html
> Josef
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