[pypy-dev] funding/popularity?

Miquel Torres tobami at googlemail.com
Tue Dec 21 20:30:58 CET 2010


It is weird that it happens as you de-select benchmarks.

Does it happen with non-beta browsers?


2010/12/21 Dima Tisnek <dimaqq at gmail.com>:
> Yes it does grind ff 4b7 to an almost halt, little cpu usage,
> reasonable memory size and constant disk activity for several minutes,
> very weird...
> So far, the difference between browsers is so large that I doubt it's
> dependent on data.
> Also it seems to tirgger as I remove columns progressively, thus new
> zero values should not appear, right?
>
> I'll invesitage some more...
>
> On 21 December 2010 01:06, Miquel Torres <tobami at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Dima,
>>
>>> another temp problem with speed pypy is that it's terrubly slow in ff
>>> beta. it also occasionally grinds in stable ff and opera, but I guess
>>> this can be forgiven for the sake of simplicity / developer effort.
>>
>> Well, speed.pypy is actually fast in all modern browsers. The problem
>> you are referring to is probably caused by a bug in the javascript
>> plotting library (jqPplot) that is triggered in the comparison view
>> when there are some results with 0 values. It only appears for some
>> plot types, but it is very annoying because it grinds the browser to a
>> halt like you say. Is that what you meant?
>>
>> We are looking into it, and will fix that library if necessary.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Miquel
>>
>>
>> 2010/12/21 Dima Tisnek <dimaqq at gmail.com>:
>>> On 20 December 2010 19:21, William ML Leslie
>>> <william.leslie.ttg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 21 December 2010 11:59, Dima Tisnek <dimaqq at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> More visibility for performance achievements would do
>>>>> good too.
>>>>
>>>> Where are pypy's performance achievements *not* visible, but should be?
>>>
>>> for example http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/
>>> doesn't say which pypy version is used, what options, doesn't have
>>> performance figures for multithreaded/multicore
>>>
>>> also benchmarks are kinda small, most of them are not docuemented, and
>>> I couldn't find any info if the same python code was used for cpython
>>> and pypy (both shootout and speed pypy) or interpreter-specific
>>> verions were used, that is each tweaked for best performance given the
>>> known tradeoffs for each implementation.further the most standard
>>> benchmarks, pystone, etc. completely ignore the fact that real world
>>> programs are large and only a few small paths are execured often.
>>>
>>> another temp problem with speed pypy is that it's terrubly slow in ff
>>> beta. it also occasionally grinds in stable ff and opera, but I guess
>>> this can be forgiven for the sake of simplicity / developer effort.
>>>
>>> if you google for 'python performance' you don't get a single link to
>>> pypy on the first page, as a matter of fact, codespeak is poorly
>>> indexed, it took me quite some time to get some of my questions
>>> answered with a search. also if you look up 'pypy gc' you get a page
>>> on codespeak, but to interpret what the data actually means is so far
>>> beyond me.
>>>
>>> a good overview is found in the mainling list
>>> http://codespeak.net/pipermail/pypy-dev/2010q1/005757.html then again
>>> slowspitfire and spambayes bits are outdated by now.
>>>
>>> the definitive good thing about pypy is that it's much easier to find
>>> out about its inner workings than that of cpython!
>>>
>>> hopefully a bit more of end-user stuff get known.
>>> let's call it pypy public outreach (feature request)
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Sidetracking... one day when pypy jit/gc/etc are all worked out, how
>>>>> hard would it be to use same techniques and most of backends for some
>>>>> unrelated language that doesn't have jit yet, e.g. php?
>>>>
>>>> You know that pypy already has implementations of other languages,
>>>> right - Scheme, Javascript, Prolog, IO and smallTalk? They aren't
>>>> integrated with the translated pypy-c, but they show that it is not
>>>> too difficult to write a runtime for any dynamic language you choose.
>>>
>>> Oh I didn't know there were so many, and I mistakenly though that js
>>> was a target, not implmented langauge. In any case I read somewhere
>>> that js support was retired...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> And how hard
>>>>> would it be to marry two dynamic languages, so that modules from one
>>>>> could be used in the other? Or that modules written in rpython could
>>>>> be used in several langs?
>>>>
>>>> It's in the "interesting problems" bucket, and the effort required
>>>> depends on the level of integration between languages you want.  There
>>>> are several projects already attempting to do decent integration
>>>> between several languages, besides the approach used on the JVM, there
>>>> are also GNU Guile, Racket, and Parrot, among others.  It might be
>>>> worth waiting to see how these different projects pan out, before
>>>> spending a bunch of effort just to be an also-ran in the
>>>> multi-language runtime market.
>>>>
>>>> However, implementing more languages in rpython has the side-effect of
>>>> propagating the l * o * p problem: it introduces more and more
>>>> implementations that then have to be maintained, so good
>>>> cross-language integration probably belongs /outside/ pypy itself, so
>>>> existing runtimes can hook into it.
>>>
>>> Makes perfect sense, after all any given other language hardly has the
>>> same data model as python.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it would be an interesting experiment (to marry the various
>>>> interpreters pypy ships with), if you wanted to try it.
>>>>
>>>> My two cents.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> William Leslie
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> pypy-dev at codespeak.net
>>> http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>
>



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