[python-committers] List of all core developers
Brett Cannon
brett at python.org
Sat Aug 4 12:51:48 EDT 2018
On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 21:59 Donald Stufft, <donald at stufft.io> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2018, at 1:52 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Aug 2018 at 00:44 Donald Stufft <donald at stufft.io> wrote:
>
>> We should probably have a single source of truth for what a core
>> developer is, and all other systems pull from that.
>>
>
> Ah, but I think there might be a terminology clash here. Using MALs
> definition means that you can be a core developer but not have commit
> privileges due to relinquishing those privileges at some point. So I'm not
> sure what systems you are referring to that need to know if someone
> historically happened to be a core developer.
>
>
> We have that I am aware of right now:
>
> - GitHub
> - bugs.p.o
> - python-committers
>
> And it sounds like Marc-Andre is looking to add to it:
>
> - A third party/user facing list of developers, regardless of the
> technical status of their ability to commit (e.g. even if they don’t have a
> GitHub account).
>
>
> There may be other systems that I can’t recall off the top of my head (is
> anything still in hg.python.org? I dunno).
>
For us, hg.python.org only has the b.p.o code.
> As of right now, I believe the list of who a core developer is and has
> historically been somewhat adhoc based upon who has permissions to commit
> things.
>
Yep.
Meaning that as we transition from one system to another we “lose” the
> ability to account for people over the years. This would also make it
> harder for someone to come back, because they’d have to track down someone
> who knew they were a core developer (and let’s be honest, human memory
> sucks so sometimes you’re just not sure if someone was or wasn’t).
>
Yes, us old-timers aren't perfect. 😉 If someone couldn't remember we would
probably go into the mailing list archives.
> So I think it would probably be a good thing if we had one central
> location that answers the question of who is and isn’t a core developer,
> that isn’t tied to the ACLs of one particular system that we happen to be
> using today. Ideally these other related systems (bugs.p.o, Github, etc)
> are then modified to pull from this thing as the singular source of truth.
> This could be as simple as a CSV/tom/yaml file sitting in a repository
> somewhere that lists all of the developers, their status etc, plus scripts
> that will synchronize access from that to the relevant places.
>
It would probably sit in the devguide. The question is how to potentially
display this in a readable format? Or maybe we don't care as long as we use
a format that makes both humans and computers happy? Otherwise we would
have to add a build step to the site. (Personally I say we do it in TOML
since it's readable and can still be writable through the GitHub web UI
since I am typically the person adding new folks 😁; we can then just link
to it for people to peruse.)
> So for arguments sake, it could be a CSV file with the schema:
>
> Name, Email, Active, bugs.p.o Username, GitHub username
>
I would toss into the year joined. I know over in the GitHub issue about
this topic that people also don't want to lose mentor/voucher/proposer and
any notes about why the person got their commit privileges.
> And then a script that could be ran whenever that would check the
> permissions of the GitHub team for CPython, and ensure that anyone listed
> there has been added to the GitHub team (and probably anyone who isn’t, has
> been removed, to ensure that getting in this file is the _way_ you get
> access). Likewise bugs.p.o could pull from this, and Marc-Andre’s public
> facing list could as well.
>
> Of course we can get fancier than a simple file somewhere, the key thing
> is that there is a single source of truth, that isn’t tied to one
> particular service or tool that we use (unless that tool is dedicated to
> managing this list of people), because anytime we tie maintaining this list
> of people to the technical aspects of giving someone an ACL to a particular
> system, then our list is going to become outdated anytime we switch systems
> (and some % of people won’t ever make the jump to the new system).
>
>
> Assuming what you mean is people with commit privileges, then we have the
> "lovely" complication of usernames being inconsistent for people across
> systems which is probably what is required to make any centralized list
> useful for systems to interact with. We could solve this by using a table
> instead of a list for people to list e.g. their GitHub and b.p.o usernames
> if people wanted to go that route.
>
>
>>
>> > On Aug 3, 2018, at 3:43 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Please note that the motivation for having a list similar to the
>> > one we have for PSF Fellows is not to determine voting eligibility.
>> >
>> > This is about having a record of the core developer status available
>> > to show to 3rd parties, e.g. to (potential) employers, organizations,
>> > government agencies, etc.
>> >
>> > Having a place to also record the email addresses for internal
>> > use such a voting or sending messages to the whole group
>> > is a good idea nonetheless. This mailing list will likely already
>> > serve that purpose.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 02.08.2018 23:25, Brett Cannon wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 2 Aug 2018 at 04:54 Stefan Richthofer <
>> stefan.richthofer at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting email
>> >>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I always thought there were already at least three places containing
>> the
>> >>> necessary email addresses.
>> >>>
>> >>> * python-committers should be exactly this mailing list.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> The list also has email archiving services as well as duplicate emails
>> for
>> >> people (e.g. I'm in it twice so that if I accidentally send an email
>> from a
>> >> personal email address it doesn't get held up in moderation).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> * according to https://devguide.python.org/coredev/#issue-tracker it
>> is
>> >>> mandatory for core developers to subscribe to the issue tracker which
>> AFAIK
>> >>> requires a confirmed email address.
>> >>>
>> >> * Every committer clearly must have signed the contributor agreement
>> >>> https://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/ which also contains
>> a
>> >>> mandatory email field
>> >>>
>> >>> So why is it still necessary to get email addresses at all?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Because none of those necessarily have accurate email addresses at this
>> >> point. E.g. even python-committers has had people dropped off due to
>> too
>> >> many email rejections. And if we hold a vote for a governance model we
>> will
>> >> need a place to send ballots.
>> >>
>> >> Now if the vote is open to any core developer (using MAL's definition
>> of it
>> >> being a lifetime title), then the subscription list for this mailing
>> list
>> >> is probably good enough with some manual grooming as long we are okay
>> with
>> >> long-dormant folk who predate this list not voting (which I'm
>> personally
>> >> fine with). But if we wanted a way to reach just people with commit
>> >> privileges then that's a separate challenge.
>> >>
>> >> -Brett
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> 2018-08-02 10:59 GMT+02:00 Eric V. Smith <eric at trueblade.com>:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On 8/2/2018 3:32 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On 02.08.2018 03:24, Eric V. Smith wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On 8/1/2018 8:32 PM, Mariatta Wijaya wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I think it would also be a good idea to include core
>> developers
>> >>>>>>> of other Python implementations in such a document, in
>> >>>>>>> separate sections, e.g. for Jython, IronPython, PyPy,
>> >>>>>>> Stackless, etc
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Hmm, I don't think it is should be our (CPython) responsibility to
>> >>>>>>> keep track and maintain the list of the core devs of alternate
>> Python
>> >>>>>>> implementations. Don't they have their own community / website?
>> They
>> >>>>>>> have their own repo, bug tracker, governance model, and
>> everything,
>> >>>>>>> right?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Agreed. We have a hard enough time keeping track of our own core
>> >>>>>> developers.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I don't really think we have a hard time doing this. The only
>> >>>>> problem is that we never sat down and actually properly recorded
>> >>>>> this in one place.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was specifically thinking of a way to stay in touch with core
>> devs, or
>> >>>> more specifically a way to send them email. In the past, before we
>> moved to
>> >>>> github, I took it upon myself to find email addresses (current or
>> not) for
>> >>>> all core devs, and I gave up without much success.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I agree that we could probably come up with a list of names for
>> people
>> >>>> who have been given the "core dev" status.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For our core devs, can't we just say that the CPython core devs are
>> >>>>>> those with commit bits on the CPython repo? I realize that will
>> >>>>>> eliminate some people who have been core developers and never
>> moved to
>> >>>>>> github, but if they bring it to our attention, we can add them
>> easily
>> >>>>>> enough.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>> As discussed before, being a core developer is a status you
>> >>>>> gain and never lose. There is a clear difference between have
>> >>>>> commit rights to the (current) repo and this status.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Agreed. Again, this was in the (poorly conveyed) context of getting
>> email
>> >>>> addresses for them, or at least being able to contact them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Eric
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> python-committers mailing list
>> >>>> python-committers at python.org
>> >>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> >>>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> >>> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> >> Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Marc-Andre Lemburg
>> > eGenix.com
>> >
>> > Professional Python Services directly from the Experts (#1, Aug 03 2018)
>> >>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ... http://www.egenix.com/
>> >>>> Python Database Interfaces ... http://products.egenix.com/
>> >>>> Plone/Zope Database Interfaces ... http://zope.egenix.com/
>> > ________________________________________________________________________
>> >
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>> >
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>> > _______________________________________________
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