[Python-Dev] Stdlib Logging questions (PEP 337 SoC)

Jim Jewett jimjjewett at gmail.com
Tue Jun 6 16:13:55 CEST 2006

On 6/5/06, Phillip J. Eby <pje at telecommunity.com> wrote:

> I notice you've completely avoided the question of whether this should be
> being done at all.

> As far as I can tell, this PEP hasn't actually been discussed.  Please
> don't waste time changing modules for which there is no consensus that this
> *should* be done.

Under a specific PEP number, no.  The concept of adding logging to the
stdlib, yes, periodically.  The typical outcome is that some people
say "why bother, besides it would slow things down" and others say
"yes, please."

I certainly agree that the PEP as written should not be treated as
fully pronounced.

I do think the discussion was stalled until we have a specific
implementation to discuss.  Google is generously funding one, and
Jackilyn is providing it.  I'm checking in here because when changes
are needed, I would prefer that she know as soon as possible.
Jackilyn has made it quite clear that she is willing to change her
direction if we ask her to, she just needs to know what the goals are.

> The original discussion that occurred prior to PEP 337's creation discussed
> only modules that *already* do some kind of logging.  There was no
> discussion of changing *all* debugging output to use the logging module,
> nor of adding logging to modules that do not even have any debugging output
> (e.g. pkgutil).

You may be reading too much ambition into the proposal.

For pkgutil in particular, the change is that instead of writing to
stderr (which can scroll off and get lost), it will write to the
errorlog.  In a truly default setup, that still ends up writing to

The difference is that if a sysadmin does want to track problems, the
change can now be made in one single place.  Today, turning on that
instrumentation would require separate changes to every relevant
module, and requires you to already know what/where they are.

I did ask whether extra debugging/instrumentation information should
be added where it isn't already present.  I personally think the
answer is yes, but it sounds like the consensus answer is "not now" --
so she generally won't.


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