[Python-Dev] PEP 453 Round 4 - Explicit bootstrapping of pip in Python installations

Donald Stufft donald at stufft.io
Thu Sep 19 15:43:46 CEST 2013

On Sep 19, 2013, at 9:36 AM, Paul Tagliamonte <paultag at debian.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 09:27:24AM -0400, Donald Stufft wrote:
>> Rationale
>> =========
>> Currently, on systems without a platform package manager and repository,
>> installing a third-party Python package into a freshly installed Python
>> requires first identifying an appropriate package manager and then
>> installing it.
> Howdy Donald,
> Thanks for helping make Python better.
> However, speaking as a Debian-folk (but not for the Debian-folk, I'll
> let barry take care of that), many users of Python software don't even
> know what pip is (or even that Python exists) -- as such, I find it very
> unlikely that a development tool would be shiped as part of the Python
> distribution in Debian. I don't see this changing, even with this pep.
> python-pip is still installable, but I don't see it pulled in by
> default.

That is obviously Debian's right. Hopefully if Debian does *not* pull it in by
default they'll be the odd man out and documentation can be updated to say
that on Debian based systems additional steps to get the "standard" Python
install must be taken. I believe Fedora has +1'd this so if this gets accepted
there will likely be that additional difference.

>> Even on systems that *do* have a platform package manager, it is unlikely to
>> include every package that is available on the Python Package Index, and
> Yes. This is true. However, it's not Debian's job to include all of
> pypi. Pypi allows anyone to upload, and we have quite a bit of attention
> to concerns such as providing source for everything (less of a concern
> for Python, but pickles can still contain data not in the prefered form
> of modification), and proper free software licensing.
> We also have a concern about stability; so we manage all the package set
> together to allow non-technical end-users to install stuff and not worry
> about breaking their system. It's not always the case where you can
> upgrade a library without breaking API.

This statement isn't meant to imply that it's Debian's job to include all of PyPI,
it merely calls out the fact that people often do wish to install things that
are not available in an OS repository while they are available on PyPI.

> I'm trimming the rest, since I don't want to get dragged into
> side-conversations about pip as a package manager.
> Cheers,
>  Paul
> -- 
> .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte <paultag at debian.org>
> : :'  : Proud Debian Developer
> `. `'`  4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
> `-     http://people.debian.org/~paultag

Donald Stufft
PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA

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